[00:00:00] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond

[00:00:12] Pia: And I am Pia Lee. How are you Mr. Hammond? 

[00:00:16] Dan: I'm Well. Do you fancy Cage Fight, Pia? Should we,

[00:00:18] Pia: Oh, for God's sakes. God's sakes. I heard car Carra Swisher on, on, on, um, Pivot saying no, she would not umpire that and she will not have nothing to do with it. it's just utter bs. I've, it makes me hopping mad that we are having our time wasted by people who are meant to have some kind of leadership and some kind of, 

[00:00:41] Dan: And for the lucky listener who's missed this, this is somehow Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg, deciding on Twitter of all, all platforms, obviously, to have a cage fight. So,

[00:00:52] Pia: It's just two boys. Two boys playing like, you know, and some kind of sort of macho, patriarchal, rubbish. 

[00:01:00] Dan: Yeah. And they've all, there is a trend at the moment isn't there for these billionaires to sort of bulk up and sort of be a bit hench. And this seems to be another, another element of it. But the tragedy of it is that, you know, this is a time when we need so much leadership. We need the smart people to be solving the big problems of the world we've got. And, uh, and they're, they're, they're engaged in these petty squabbles and, and they're, they're just playing while actually there are some serious things to do.

[00:01:30] Dan: And one of those things is, what are we going, how's the world going to handle AI? This is, I certainly believe this is the biggest shift. This is bigger than the internet, advent of the internet, this industrial revolution level change. And we seem to be just heading towards that positive and negative potential with the, with no, and, and the people who should be on the bridge are cage fighting or just being stupid. So it's leadership once again, is in a pretty, pretty poor state, just when we need it. 

[00:02:01] Pia: Absolutely. A hundred percent. They've let they, they've let themselves down as my dad would say, 

[00:02:05] Dan: they, they've let their school down and they've.

[00:02:08] Pia: They've let everyone down. I think they have really let people down because I just think that, yes, okay, it's gonna appeal to some part of some male, I don't think women would go and watch it. I don't think. I don't think, and I think some men would want to enjoy watching it, but really we're just, it's an, it's an egotistical brawl. And it's, as you say, not. Really using their capacity and supposedly their brains to solve much bigger problems, but actually to, it's aggrandizement. And I just, I find it quite repulsive actually. I'll be quite strong. 

[00:02:42] Dan: It, it really is. Yeah. I, um, I post on LinkedIn about this cuz I remember when I was young I learned this, this idea of noblesse oblige, which, you know, which means privilege comes with responsibility. And I used to think, oh, that's really good. How quaint is that? I mean, the know the, these guys do not see that at all.

[00:02:59] Dan: So anyway, so, um, this, this, this episode of We Not Me has started on a sort of slightly ranty, stay prickly, a little bit prickly, but we are. And it's, it's something to rail against and we do have to call it out. It's unacceptable behavior and they need to grow up and get on the bridge and stop faffing about.

[00:03:16] Dan: but I hope today's episode might start to sort of calm things down a bit. We're gonna go to the south of France. We're going to talk, uh, to Benjamin who is a, he's gonna talk to us about AI and how that's going to impact our teams and the way we connect as humans. So we'll have a little explore of this topic, and hope that we and our listener can at least be a bit more proactive and positive about the revolution that is about to hit.

[00:03:41] Pia: Oh, we hope. 

[00:03:42] Pia: And a warm welcome to you, Benjamin. Lovely to have you on the show.

[00:03:49] Benjamin: Thank you for having me, Dan and Pia. I'm happy to be here.

[00:03:52] Pia: Welcome from the South of France. So we make this a truly global podcast today. But I feel a little bit like the execution. I hand you over to Dan for a small degree of torture, so he's gonna ask you the infamous questions, starter cards.

[00:04:08] Dan: Ben, I pull on my black hood and, uh, take a card. Here we go. Let's see. This is hope. Help us to gets, get to know you a little bit better. Oh, well this could, uh, this could be an interesting one. The worst piece of advice I ever received.

[00:04:21] Pia: Do you wanna phone a friend ChatGPT maybe.

[00:04:25] Benjamin: I think ChatGPT advice, uh, were kind of okay-ish when it's not involving mathematics only if you start adding some calculation, it goes off track. And yeah, if you ask maybe for, I don't know, a diet plan or things like that, or might yeah, recommend we things to do like eat very little calorie or way too much, or it just doesn't know what to say. Uh, if it's about like human advice, I'm not sure, but I think it's, it evolves around maybe stay in your lane, don't try this, don't try that, uh, don't try to change your life. I don't have one person in particular in mind, but something that, uh, came quite often in my life, like, you should not try this, you should not try that. Just stay how you are.

[00:05:08] Benjamin: And I think maybe it's a bit French thing maybe. Cause we tend to, we are not like the American who are innovators and entrepreneurs, even if entrepreneur is a French word, you know. But we are, I don't know, there's something in French culture, it's less about, um, try, it's more like, don't make mistakes instead of try make a mistake and, and go from there.

[00:05:30] Dan: Well, I, and I dunno if it's an urban myth, but didn't one of the US presidents reportedly say the French don't have a word for entrepreneur? Um, but I, and I dunno if that's actually true, but it's, it is quite funny. Um, but, um, but anyway, but it's a brilliant setup actually, Benjamin, for your, for, for you to tell us a bit about you and, uh, how you ended up in this place. Because I think, um, probably you didn't take that advice and, uh, this, your story will, will open that up a little bit.

[00:05:56] Benjamin: Actually, yeah. Uh, so you are right. It took me some time to, to, to go beyond this kind of advice or vibe. It took me quite a lot of time to change careers. So I may be a bumpy road, I would say. I think everything started to move, um, almost when I went to Japan a few years ago, I decided I was going to turn 30 and I wanted to, I always wanted to go to Japan. It was the last year to make some kind of visa, easy visa to go there. I was like, okay, I need to find a way to make money online. Started like that. I'm not gonna explain everything of course, but I went through learning a bit, web design, marketing.

[00:06:31] Benjamin: And then Covid happened. At that time, I was starting to learn about UX UI, and I started to discover design thinking and, and just workshop in general, I would say. I did some VR design and facilitation work for startup, and at the same time I jump into the AI trend. Uh, since then, I, I'm mainly in AI, I'm still using AI. So far it's working.

[00:06:52] Benjamin: Now I'm trying to learn how to code using ai cause it's something I always, always missed to learn how to code. It's still, um, a high skill in demand, I would say. And using AI as a private teacher is really a great way to catch up. You know, you can learn much faster. It's someone that will never say, oh, I'm tired of explaining this again to you,

[00:07:10] Dan: Yeah, just 

[00:07:12] Benjamin: Quite cheap. You can ask it 24 hour, any question. Of course the code is not always good for the month, but you can ask it to correct the code after. But using AI as a bright teacher to learn something is great depending of which skill you want to learn,

[00:07:25] Dan: Thank you for that. And that's a brilliant background for us today because, We are here to talk about how humans connect to get stuff done. So we really want to talk about what's the likely impact of AI potentially on how we relate together as humans, possibly in teams, possibly more broadly than that.

[00:07:41] Dan: What's the, what's the current AI landscape looking like and how might that start to, uh, maybe, maybe for the listener, just to break it down, if you didn't know much about AI, what's actually happening right now so that we can then get down and see how it might affect humans?

[00:07:56] Benjamin: Sure. So if we think mainly about collaboration, cause we could go even broader, but let's focus on collaboration. You have AI who is acting as a participant, as maybe a co-pilot for workshop design? I would say, um, it can pretend to be some personas. For example, you can use it even to run, fake. For example, I run a fake design sprint with AI. I asked the AI to behave as five different person, and I was giving it challenges, trying to brainstorm and select the answers and that kind of thing.

[00:08:29] Dan: So you used AI to basically adopt different personas. So you almost made a, either a sort of either customer personas or team personas to, to actually collaborate with. Is

[00:08:41] Benjamin: Yeah. Yeah. So maybe it's already too detail. I'm not sure. But what I did was I wanted to see if you can run a full design sprint only using AI. I was the only human, cause I was giving the prompt and a bit of, um, direction. So I asked the AI basically to behave as a designer, a developer, I don't know, project manager, different position. And then it was answering based on these roles, it had to play. So in one prompt you get five answers. Then I said, can you generate 30 ideas about, I dunno, that problem, that topic, that something. Can you create me how might wes? Then I was getting how might wes from this different perspective also, um, then it was altogether and I said, okay, can you vote on the one that makes more sense from this different perspective? And I had some results.

[00:09:28] Benjamin: So at point, it's hard to know if it's really a usable material or not. Cause it's famous that sometimes they say the AI might answer what it thinks you want to hear rather than what it is true, for example. So I was never sure, but the experiment was, can I do it only with AI? It's at the end. I got some kind of results, some prototype, uh, to create, of course. Yeah. I didn't create the prototype, but I had the, the guideline.

[00:09:54] Benjamin: And I ask also, can you behave like a, a user test? Like create the persona for this thing. Then can you behave like this persona, for example, try this thing, what would you give as a feedback? So you can go quite far, but at some point just hard to know if it's valuable or not, you would've to compare with a real human to see if it's close or not. But that was an interesting experiment.

[00:10:16] Benjamin: But what I can say is that AI, for example, the month is added in most of the collaborative tool such as Mural, Miro and Stormz to generate ideas as an extra participant. Uh, personally, I think the answer the AI gave is Almost as the average Joe I would say. Like if you ask 10% to generate 50, uh, how might we about anything, if you add the AI inside and you don't see it to the person there is an AI, I think most of the people would not spot it because the answer are kind of average, I think. Some people don't like that, but I think person, it's already a bit average level.

[00:10:52] Benjamin: AI can be innovative, but it's only by a combination. Cause the data, it is trained of, oh, sorry. It's huge. And so it can do connection that, uh, maybe a human did already somewhere, but you don't know. So it can migrate innovation by combination. You could say, here is a skateboard, here's a VR headset set, and give me 10 ideas to combine both, for example. That's what a human can do, also. What it won't do is to find something that is not already somewhere in the world, but it's already quite good. I think like a lot of innovation from the humans come from the combination of stuff, so I think you can already do some innovative thinking with AI. I would say.

[00:11:32] Pia: And, and what's been your biggest learning 

[00:11:34] Benjamin: I, I had two things. I, I think like, maybe I would say more people should try the tools. I mean, when I, I tried a lot of different things with ai from personal to professional life and many experiments. I think you can do already a lot with AI, really a lot. But on the other hand, you really need to double check the result because sometimes you just get an error out of nowhere and, and the AI is really like, it speaks like it thinks it's true what it is saying. And so if you have no idea about the topic and the AI says something wrong and you don't know it's wrong, cause you know about the topic, it can be misleading. So it's super powerful, but you should have a way to double check, which it's kind of contradictory. Cause if you ask something complicated you don't know, and then you have to double check, then you could just do the first you know? 

[00:12:23] Dan: And Benji on that front, one of our previous guests, um, Ian Smith, um, who was actually talking about the Metaverse, but um, he says that ChatGPT is, he's is a nice summary. I think it's an amoral bullshitter. I think he think he can see the positive, but you have to be careful with this dark side is that it's not going to think about what's right and also it will make stuff up. And I thought it was very interesting to say that it's a bit of a people pleaser. So you've got another character in your team, which you have to sort of with its own personality traits.

[00:12:52] Dan: Is that a temporary, is that, is that a temporary phase? Are we gonna get into an area where it has, it can, it takes both of those two out. Maybe has some values, and stops bullshitting?

[00:13:06] Benjamin: I would say yes and no. At least what I can say is that, uh, I, I read that recently. So the, the part where it says something that it thinks you want to hear, it's part because maybe there's not enough data on the topic you are asking it on, on what on which it was trained. And so he doesn't really know and so he just tried to guess because he's not sure, because of the data he was trained off not enough. But what you can already do to bypass a bit, this thing, this behavior. You can also ask the AI to behave like X Y Z. And so you could say, behave like someone who is a critical thinker and will always try to bring me the contradiction to what I'm saying for example, in that case, it'll not separately something you thinks you want to hear, unless we think that he wants you to hear the contradictory thing anyway. But you can ask the AI to behave as different kind of person and you can try to bypass, but I think it will evolve. Uh, the more there's data trained on, the better it'll get.

[00:14:02] Dan: One of, um, Pia and my, our, our favorite podcast is Pivot. And, um, Scott Galloway on there always says, you, you won't lose your job to AI. You're gonna lose this, your job to someone with AI or who knows AI. So if you take that into teams or groups of people, you know, you could say you won't be perform outperformed by AI, you'll be outperformed by a team with AI.

[00:14:24] Dan: So, um, potentially what if you fast forward five years? What would a really high performing team look like as leveraging this technology?

[00:14:32] Benjamin: Yeah, I think if everything stays kind of as it is and just grow, let's say there's not a huge, uh, exponential change, basically every team member will have, he is her own AI assistant, and it'll be for everything, probably. I mean, work related could be life, but let's speak about, uh, this work.

[00:14:50] Benjamin: So everyone will have his own AI system. There will be also some, almost AGI from the company, at least an AI that knows everything about the company, trained on documentation that you could invite also to the meeting. You would've the, so the humans, their AI assistant, maybe some bigger AI from the company that could go here and there to work with everyone. And maybe even the AI between companies might. Talk together to do things that maybe we won't have to do anymore, but let's just think it's not really changing.

[00:15:19] Benjamin: Um, I think everyone will have his own AI assistant just to work faster, think faster, uh, and do everything faster, basically. It's like everyone would've a, um, virtual assistant for example, or an executive assistant for everything. You can just give more tasks to them and focus on really the high value task, which for humans is still thinking. And even I think there's a huge part around emotion, emotional, uh, intelligence, that kind of things that AI cannot do yet. That's the kind of things we would keep. Especially in the thinking or in u ui, like the human centered things and trying to em empathy to your user. I think AI can mimic it, but probably not really do it for the moment. So that's what we are going to focus on probably, 

[00:16:03] Pia: is there a danger that, that the humans are the, are the fatal flaw in AI? So, you know, I, I think about how we rather like to be wowed and seduced by things, and, and, and then to sort of feel a bit like we've got a, a quick win to not having to work so hard and that, that surely is, that's quite powerful if it's not necessarily true or is an amoral bullshitter, then that, then that's got a danger, danger, attacked, attached to it, I think.

[00:16:38] Benjamin: I agree. But I think, uh, at some point it might be just a huge worldwide society question. Do we want AI to do kind of everything for us? At least the things we should do to make the world work, for example. And we would just do like, I don't know, art, culture, whatever creation. Uh, I know it sounds a bit weird, but maybe one day we will have to ask ourselves this question, Do we want the AI to do everything or do we want to do it by ourself because we enjoy it, for example, or because we think there is more value to do it ourselves?

[00:17:09] Benjamin: It's a real question. I'm not sure what's the answer. You know, depending if you don't like your job and you could get the same salary with an AI doing it for you, probably you would do it. For example, if you're really passionate about what you are doing, you might not want the AI to do it for you.

[00:17:23] Dan: Interesting. So, um, just diving into this team idea. We've talked a lot on this podcast about, um, diversity inclusion and diversity and, well, diversity inclusion, I suppose. Um, but is, is that another area that if you have a team that you feel is a bit, you need some other element, you need something else. Can the AI play, will they be able to play a part, even if you don't have a human, that you could possibly get it to be someone different, get it to react in a different way than the people you've got, have a different way of thinking so it could potentially build your diversity? Um, or are we somewhere off from that?

[00:18:01] Benjamin: I think it's an interesting question. Um, but I would say one thing at least probably you saw there was some AI experiment, uh, recently and for example, in the few days, I think on Twitter, it just became racist, for example, because was just learning on everything and then there's no filter, it turns on. So you might have this kind of bias also i, for example, in the visual AI, like Midjourney uh, when you ask a picture of a doctor for example, it might give you, uh, a white man more often than, uh, something else, someone else, you know. So you have this kind of bias that you have to be careful of, especially if you ask for diversity point of view. It, yeah, you might have that kind of things here and there.

[00:18:42] Benjamin: But I think it's interesting to, uh, to ask, yeah, to act like someone from a different culture, for example. Um, but maybe be careful because of this bias, just of the data it was trained off, for example. And, uh, the, the bad side of the human actually, um, sometimes multiply inside AI. 

[00:18:59] Dan: Yeah, that, that is fascinating, isn't it? That AI has arrived for the human race at a time when we seem to be, at our lowest, you know? I think someone said, someone, someone posted on recently, you know, there could come time when AI is more intelligent than humans, I think well, right. That's a pretty low bar right now because, you know, it's, we're not doing really that well, you know. Facebook and TikTok we've allowed them to destroy democracy and cause teen depression. I mean, our handling of AI isn't, isn't great. So our humanity is, is sort of rather weak at this time, I think when this comes in.

[00:19:35] Dan: So what can we do to sort of be really conscious about the advent of AI and, and make the right choices as we go forward? And that's probably a big question cause there's a lot of intergovernmental stuff that needs to be done. But what can we all do to just keep an eye on things?

[00:19:49] Benjamin: Yeah, so I think the first thing probably that is obvious that everyone should learn a bit about this, what's happening, what it can and cannot do, the problems, the pros and cons. And because we think sometimes when you're in the tech, we think that everyone knows and everyone use ChatGPT for example. But the truth is like at the world scale, not so many people are using it yet.

[00:20:10] Benjamin: Of course, someone tried a chatbot somewhere and a app or a chatbot on Snapchat, on Facebook, on everywhere. But not everyone played with something like ChatGPT, so maybe first thing would be that people are aware of it. And recently, for example, Open AI, they are looking for people to work on project where AI would be added to, like, democracy and how can we use AI to bring more democracy to the world? Something like that. 

[00:20:34] Benjamin: It's the same as in si sci-fi scenario. You know, maybe the AI would be better than us to manage humanity, maybe, because it would be more fair and everything. But do we want to be in a world where the machine controls our destiny? Yeah, people should be more informed and take time. And then we should think about it altogether. Like what do we want to do with this thing? Yeah, I think it's a tool. It's just a very powerful tool. So it depends on how we use it, so.

[00:20:58] Pia: It it strikes me as interesting that In terms of regulation, if you don't wear a, a helmet when you're on a bike, you'd get fined. But we don't have anything yet to regulate AI and the use of it. And yet the cat is well and truly out the bag. I can't see how they can reign this back in because it's already integrated in so many systems.

[00:21:19] Pia: And that concerns me because it w, why do we have regulation, a number of things that are for humankind's governance, safety, mental health, and then things like TikTok, Facebook, that have had no governance whatsoever or regulation are now being proved to have a detrimental effect in a whole number of different ways.

[00:21:41] Pia: So I can see that in the right hands this would be extraordinary AI and will make things and, and, and enable people to have access to information they've never had. It in the wrong hands, then I do lie awake at night worrying about that. 

[00:22:00] Benjamin: Yeah, definitely. Uh, definitely And it, it already happened at a low level and it might definitely happen at a high level. That's why I think it's really profound and it's a kind of also mirror, you know, it's a kind of mirror to society. And it happened already before. So do we want the government to control this? Should it be private, public, both? Decentralized, cause that the things that are happening with web3 technology, for example. Maybe a good thing is around decentralization, so more people can have a word about something. 

[00:22:29] Benjamin: For the regulation, I think it's already a debate in many places. Uh, some private companies doesn't want to follow the government rule, but sometimes there's even no rules for the moment. So it's really blur and it's a kind of a fight between a hundred percent private innovative things and the government who wants to regulate and control, and it's, it's, you cannot have just one. It's both regulate, control, innovation, but you need the rules. And so they are just trying to adjust where do we stand? 

[00:22:57] Dan: It appeared to take a lot of governments by surprise. I'm sure not China or Russia, but, um, but I feel the UK government was sort of, oh, you know, they, it is like they heard about AI when everyone in the pub heard about it. Um, so I, I feel pretty like we're not that well prepared.

[00:23:12] Dan: So Benjamin, It's a massive field. I mean, we've had a roving discussion. We sort of probably ask more questions even than we've managed to answer, but I suppose that's the way with an emerging technology. What could, let's bring this down to earth. What could someone specifically do to step into this, to put, dip their toe in the AI world if they're thinking how do I make a start so that I, I at least have some understanding on, and particularly potentially around working with other humans, but what's, what is their, what is their path to make a, make, make that first step?

[00:23:42] Benjamin: Well, I, I know it's not gonna sound like, uh, super smart or anything, but I think the first step is just to open your browser, open ChatGPT and start saying anything. I know it sounds stupid, but you really need to try. If you've never tried, you should try. Then if you try, you should start asking many, many different things just to grasp a bit what it can do. It could be like about private life, like can you give me advice for, I don't know, food, sleep. You could say, how do I plan my holidays if I want to go somewhere, for example? Then you could say, this is my work. This is my technical Descript for my work. Can I do it better or my work is to collaborate with humans? Can you generate me ideas for icebreakers, for example? I think people should just try quite broad and then they will see what it can and cannot do. It's maybe good, uh, good thing to try in your own field so you can already judge the result. Cause if you have something, you have no idea, well, you have no idea. So it's just fun. But I think try something in your own field to just get an idea of what it can do.

[00:24:46] Benjamin: Sometimes also, the AI, actually, it's not going to say something all the time if it's like. It's depending of the key word you use or if he thinks it's going to be like, I don't know, a criminal topic or whatever like that, risky, it might just say, sorry, I cannot answer this question. So you can see also are things you cannot ask. But I think people should just try uh, to, to see what it can do. Yeah, that's the first thing I would say. Just try, explore, experiment.

[00:25:10] Benjamin: The, the AI is very smart, but also very stupid. There is not this like human intuition of understanding between humans, you know? So sometimes you would ask a question to a human, you would understand everything implicitly. But if you ask the AI, you will have to be specific about many things that you sh you would not say to a human for the same question. That can be surprising sometimes. 

[00:25:32] Dan: I did find that interesting when we were, we, we are experimenting ourselves with, um, using, um, AI to coach. And it was interesting writing the prompt as in sort of setting it up well. It, it did force us to be really disciplined about briefing a coach to say what are your boundaries? Is what your, it was quite, it was a good human learning to say how do I do this without making any assumptions? So, um, yeah, that was fascinating.

[00:25:56] Dan: Uh, so look, I think that's a great tip, Benjamin, and as you say, if people tried in their own field, they can give it a go, dip their toe in the water and uh, see where they go. So I'm sure this is going to have a massive impact and you've sort of opened the curtains on that for us a little bit today on how this might affect how humans are going to interact in the future. But Benjamin, thank you so much for, for doing so and for being a Guest on the show today.

[00:26:19] Benjamin: Thank you very much, both of you. I can just add maybe one quick thing. Um, it's based on my work pre-work. When I'm freelancing for clients, for example, for web design, you know, they kind of prompt me, like M, the AI, they prompt me, can you create me website for X Y Z? And there are clients that knows how to ask and sometimes doesn't know how to ask. And it's the same with AI. Some might say, can you make me a nice website? What do you want to do with this question? You know, some of them might say, I would like to use these colors, this type, or the goal of the landing page would be X Y Z. The more information you have, the better you can do the job, related to what the person wants.

[00:26:56] Benjamin: It's the same with the robot. If you say, make me a nice website to the AI, yeah, no idea. But if you start saying the parameters and the the goals and everything, then you get better result just to relate. 

[00:27:08] Dan: Perfect. Perfect. Yeah, very, um, very true. So interesting how the human and the desire for outcomes and the clarity around that still has a is is even more profound here, because no one's gonna pick that up and interpret it if you're using AI. So yeah, brilliant. Final insight. Thank you Benji. And thank you again for being on the show.

[00:27:27] Benjamin: Thank you, both of you. It was a pleasure. 

[00:27:33] Dan: Well, we started this conversation a little bit prickly, I think. Um, I'm feeling it. Uh, you mean Benjamin's delightful and he, he really.

[00:27:41] Dan: He was honest and, and he shared the whole thing. And obviously there's some huge benefits to AI. And there is another side to it, and I think Hillary's, clinton said quite rightly recently, every technology in history has two sides to it, or several sides to it. You know, the, the, it's not all positive, it's not negative. Think back to, yeah, industrial revolution, the car, the internet, you know, Facebook, Uber, whatever you want to say, but I think as a point, as, as you said in the conversation, the regulation seems to trail that. But I also. I, I fear looking this, looking, looking at the really big picture here, we've got a lot of governments at the moment don't even feel they should govern. You know, they're sort of bit, they've got that sort of libertarian, ah, let this go or that they're not sufficiently informed.

[00:28:28] Dan: You know, we've got in the uk, um, sorry I'm ranting. We have the UK Covid inquiry going on at the moment, it's very evident that the government was not prepared for that, whereas actually everyone knew there was gonna be a pandemic at some point. But the, there was ill pr ill preparedness. We knew AI was coming and again, we're not prepared. So I think we're gonna be constantly in catch up on regulation.

[00:28:50] Pia: And once it's let out the bag, as I say, then you've got, it's like crack cocaine. Everyone's slightly hooked. They love the idea, of course, sells beautifully. Here's something that's gonna make your life easier and be really fun to play with. It's like a toy, but it really benefits you and it's gonna do this and that and the other. And all of a sudden we're seduced. 

[00:29:10] Pia: It's a little bit like, you know, it it, it's about like giving very young children a phone. You've gotta really make a conscious choice because there, there isn't a, that we get addicted to things. It's not the, it's not the technology, it's the humans interacting with the technology. That's the, that's the, and whether we've got the capacity, cuz I think this. There are huge health, social welfare benefits that you can really see in aspects of society. This is regulated in a way that actually

[00:29:43] Dan: Could be amazing. Yeah. I mean, you can take Mayo Clinic Standard Medicine to Uganda, for example, you know that it'll just beam it straight in there. The best in the world, um, at low cost. And, and yet on the other side is this. And I think we, yeah, it was the, to your point though, the, it was unedifying to see a lot of tech technologists and even the architects of this technology, trying to get the cat back in the bag, didn't they? They said, oh, we should stop it. And of course, one thing. Thought about that. Well, basically the US stops, you know, China and Russia, everyone else is North Korea, they're gonna keep going, so we have to move fast.

[00:30:21] Dan: So, yeah, it's interesting. So I think, and um, I was fascinated though by, and if we think about teams and how people work together, I could see a time when, you've got a character in your team that is an AI. I really liked his, you know, his idea also that you could have an AI on your team that is a, general AI, and it knows everything about your organization. So it'd be really amazing, wouldn't it, if you were working a huge company like some of our customers, and it knew everything and it, it was just like an oracle that just says, ah, these things, I've joined them up, I've found this data, and this is a, this is a thing.

[00:30:55] Dan: So, you know that, that could be really exciting. And also possibly have an AI down the line that is a super creative person or a super rational person or what, whatever, and working out how we collaborate with them.

[00:31:06] Pia: Or a way for a leader to practice performance conversations and to run those out with an AI figure and then get the feedback before you actually go into it, rather than make a catastrophe of a conversation with an individual. There's all sorts of things. And there's innovation, putting things together that, that, but we have to own it. It

[00:31:25] Dan: Yes. That's

[00:31:26] Pia: provide this. You got, you've gotta own that. And I, I, saw an article from professor saying that the middle band of students that were doing quite well have, have actually dropped a, a lot of their results because they've stopped researching and they're believing the, they're writing essays through ChatGPT without verifying any of the data, and it's wrong. And even I think that the CEO of ChatGPT said, oh, by the way, it, it's not all correct. You've got to verify it. So let's not get too excited by the sales hype and just get. Hold of

[00:31:59] Dan: it's gonna figure that out. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I really like that. Um, that, that, that is probably the thing that I'm, I'm left with. We are in charge. Um, we have to remain in charge. And you know that last point that Benjamin made, which was, you know that if you brief an agency, being a marketing person, you know, I know people tend to brief agencies really badly, but if you can brief an agency well, or if you can write a really good prompt, that is you being in charge of your desired outcomes and, and getting clear about it, that's the human. And then you will assess the, the, um, the result either by testing it on other humans or by test, by, uh, evaluating yourself. But still the human. We can't delegate out things to AI, um, just yet I'm sure that water level will rise. We'll delegate more and more, but, um, we, we still don't have responsibility.

[00:32:55] Dan: And also, what is left, you know, when the machines are doing a lot? I think we, I hope that we will start to cherish our own humanity. Because inter, you know, as, as all those sort of things that we've been doing post-industrial, blah, blah, blah, as they're taken away from us, the bit that remains above the water level is our humanity, our emotions, our connections, um, you know, all of those good things. And with. So a possibility we'll get really clear on what that is, what it is to be human, and it's not to be a drone working a factory. Let's, um, let's see. A, a prickly start, but I hope an optimistic end. Let's see if there's any chance of that happening. Excellent.

[00:33:35] Dan: But that is it for this episode. You can find show notes and resources at squadify.net. Just click on the We Not Me podcast link. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. If you'd like to contribute to the show, just email us at wenotmepod@gmail.com. We Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman of Origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye for me.

[00:33:58] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.