WEBVTT 00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:03.937 The reason I was hesitant to say this is because I know that there are churches 00:00:03.937 --> 00:00:05.877 that literally have that language on their website. 00:00:06.177 --> 00:00:11.097 I'm not picking on you specifically, but if you pull up, you'll find some version. 00:00:11.297 --> 00:00:15.437 The words might change, but essentially what they're saying is, 00:00:15.497 --> 00:00:21.437 like, show up Sunday, join a small group, midweek thing, and then somehow serve 00:00:21.437 --> 00:00:23.557 either the church or the community. 00:00:23.857 --> 00:00:27.457 And if you do those three things, that's what it means to be a disciple. 00:00:28.237 --> 00:00:34.777 And the thing about that is, is that you can max out that definition of discipleship inside of a week. 00:00:35.737 --> 00:00:38.097 Welcome to the Uncut Podcast. 00:00:39.397 --> 00:00:44.137 I'm Pastor Luke. I'm Pastor Cameron. And this is the Uncut Podcast, 00:00:44.277 --> 00:00:48.997 where we have uncut, honest conversations about faith, life, and ministry. 00:00:49.857 --> 00:00:54.277 So, Cameron, we're sitting down on a gloomy Thursday afternoon, 00:00:54.517 --> 00:01:00.837 because we live in western New York. We did see a strange yellow orb in the 00:01:00.837 --> 00:01:03.077 sky yesterday for a couple hours. 00:01:03.337 --> 00:01:05.877 It made me so happy. It really made me happy, too. 00:01:06.897 --> 00:01:14.017 It really did. I went out to feed our animals in our barn early in the morning. 00:01:14.177 --> 00:01:18.577 The sun was coming up, and I just kind of stood in the field next to my barn 00:01:18.577 --> 00:01:21.477 and just looked at the sun and let the warmth and the light, 00:01:21.577 --> 00:01:23.857 just the sunlight, hit my face. 00:01:23.937 --> 00:01:27.357 And it was like, oh, my gosh. Yeah. This is what I need. 00:01:27.997 --> 00:01:36.597 Actually, I'm sure somebody out there who knows weather and understands the 00:01:36.597 --> 00:01:40.057 science of it, but I was thinking about it the other day. I was like, why is it just that? 00:01:40.257 --> 00:01:44.477 I mean, it's fine that it's cold, but why does the sun actually have to disappear? 00:01:44.597 --> 00:01:50.657 Why is it cloudier in these winter months than it is in the warmer months? 00:01:51.157 --> 00:01:55.917 I'm sure it's got something to do with air pressure and humidity and all that jazz. 00:01:56.897 --> 00:02:02.077 But I don't know. I just, I find it so abysmal that it's just one giant gray. 00:02:03.973 --> 00:02:09.913 Slab outside yeah so i have never been the type of person that has recognized that, 00:02:10.873 --> 00:02:13.553 that you know had been like oh we haven't seen the sun in x 00:02:13.553 --> 00:02:16.353 amount of days yeah to me it's just like always been. 00:02:16.353 --> 00:02:19.133 Like well this is just kind of because you you've lived here 00:02:19.133 --> 00:02:22.153 your whole life my whole life yeah this is how it is you 00:02:22.153 --> 00:02:24.993 know but for whatever reason this year i'm 00:02:24.993 --> 00:02:27.713 feeling like oh wow a little bit of 00:02:27.713 --> 00:02:30.853 sunshine would be like game changing today 00:02:30.853 --> 00:02:34.173 yeah well i would i this is totally 00:02:34.173 --> 00:02:37.273 not what we had planned to talk about but i watched this like 00:02:37.273 --> 00:02:40.053 you know video online because i 00:02:40.053 --> 00:02:43.513 spent too much time online and there was this guy with this like light meter and he 00:02:43.513 --> 00:02:46.493 was measuring just a different like amount of 00:02:46.493 --> 00:02:49.513 light exposure and type of light exposure you get when 00:02:49.513 --> 00:02:53.133 you're inside versus being outside and 00:02:53.133 --> 00:02:56.053 he's like yeah like on a sunny day obviously you're 00:02:56.053 --> 00:02:58.793 going to get more sun exposure it's going to do better things for your 00:02:58.793 --> 00:03:02.513 circadian rhythm and stuff like that but even the 00:03:02.513 --> 00:03:05.373 amount of light that we're getting on a day like today where we 00:03:05.373 --> 00:03:08.093 cannot see the sun it's overcast it's gray 00:03:08.093 --> 00:03:11.293 out there it is still so much 00:03:11.293 --> 00:03:14.893 more light than what you get inside i can't 00:03:14.893 --> 00:03:18.133 remember because i don't i don't remember if he was measuring lumens 00:03:18.133 --> 00:03:21.573 or what he was was measuring on that little thing but it was like you 00:03:21.573 --> 00:03:24.633 know like maybe you're like a 00:03:24.633 --> 00:03:27.273 hundred inside and like on a 00:03:27.273 --> 00:03:32.053 cloudy day it was like a couple hundred it was like 500 600 you know on a bright 00:03:32.053 --> 00:03:36.913 day it's a ton yeah but he was just like but like the magnitude of sun exposure 00:03:36.913 --> 00:03:42.053 you get outside even on a cloudy day so much better than even sitting next to 00:03:42.053 --> 00:03:44.813 a window inside right right It's like, oh. 00:03:44.933 --> 00:03:47.213 It just sucks that it's also cold outside. 00:03:47.453 --> 00:03:49.993 It's the other deterrent that keeps us from going outside. 00:03:51.913 --> 00:03:56.833 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, kind of hold on, wait for spring. 00:03:57.093 --> 00:04:02.413 Yeah, which is like, you know, it is one of the beautiful things about like 00:04:02.413 --> 00:04:06.373 the church calendar and the way it's kind of structured is that it's, 00:04:06.373 --> 00:04:07.553 I was thinking about this last night, 00:04:07.593 --> 00:04:12.893 that, you know, Advent is kind of this move towards hope. 00:04:14.253 --> 00:04:17.313 Even as the days get shorter and it gets darker and darker. 00:04:18.393 --> 00:04:26.013 And then Lent, which is fast approaching, you know, comes in early spring at 00:04:26.013 --> 00:04:29.973 the very, like, maybe late winter, early spring mark. 00:04:30.493 --> 00:04:36.193 And it's this, it's kind of a, like, even though the days are getting longer, 00:04:36.413 --> 00:04:41.433 it's a more inward and more reflective and maybe a darker journey. 00:04:42.013 --> 00:04:44.793 Lent is, because you're reflecting on your sin and all of that. 00:04:44.933 --> 00:04:50.213 But it's leading up to this very hopeful, regenerative, new celebration with 00:04:50.213 --> 00:04:52.233 the coming of spring. So... 00:04:54.584 --> 00:04:58.504 Just thinking about the way the seasons line up with the church calendar. 00:04:58.524 --> 00:05:03.404 Yes, I think redemption is woven into the created world. Yeah. For sure. It is. 00:05:04.424 --> 00:05:10.024 But anyways, we were thinking, before we turned on the microphones and everything, 00:05:10.204 --> 00:05:20.304 we were kind of talking about discipleship and maybe some ideas that we were having, 00:05:20.304 --> 00:05:28.024 having listened to a podcast that we both found and we really enjoyed and appreciated and listened to. 00:05:30.064 --> 00:05:38.024 And we were kind of thinking about what that means for discipleship and kind of a corrective for it. 00:05:38.204 --> 00:05:40.484 So Cameron, do you want to kind of take us from there? 00:05:40.744 --> 00:05:49.284 Yeah, so the podcast was Carrie Newhoff's podcast, podcast and we'll link it 00:05:49.284 --> 00:05:54.744 here in the uh in the notes yep um but carrie is uh was a pastor, 00:05:55.624 --> 00:06:05.744 a pretty large church um left pastoral ministry and started writing and doing 00:06:05.744 --> 00:06:11.084 leadership work and stuff like that he's got a pretty you know you got a story 00:06:11.084 --> 00:06:15.104 of burnout and a story of I wouldn't say disenchantment, 00:06:15.104 --> 00:06:18.904 but just like ministry was going a different way. 00:06:19.444 --> 00:06:28.164 And he interviews John Mark Comer, who I guess surprisingly is kind of like the same story. Yeah. 00:06:28.764 --> 00:06:32.224 Leading a pretty big church, megachurch out in the Pacific Northwest. 00:06:33.524 --> 00:06:37.364 He had said something like 93 staff or something like that. 00:06:38.664 --> 00:06:47.484 Anyway, is a, what I would say is kind of like the modern day church guru on 00:06:47.484 --> 00:06:52.444 what we would call now discipleship. 00:06:53.837 --> 00:07:03.157 And, and the simplification of life and, you know, probably his most famous 00:07:03.157 --> 00:07:07.637 book is entitled The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry. Yep. Very good book. 00:07:08.737 --> 00:07:13.797 And they were sitting down just to talk, I think, really kind of about the state 00:07:13.797 --> 00:07:17.557 of discipleship in the evangelical church today. 00:07:17.657 --> 00:07:22.577 Yeah. It was kind of a leap launching pad off of his most recent book, 00:07:22.697 --> 00:07:24.057 which I think I've mentioned on the podcast. 00:07:24.577 --> 00:07:28.577 I started listening to this last week, something like that. 00:07:28.657 --> 00:07:32.597 I'm listening to it on audiobook, which does count as reading, Cameron. It does not. 00:07:36.037 --> 00:07:42.797 But his new book, whether you listen or read to it, is Practicing the Way. 00:07:44.137 --> 00:07:46.817 I bought the book, and I will read it like a grown adult. 00:07:49.837 --> 00:07:51.397 But anyway. 00:07:56.757 --> 00:08:02.317 They have a lot of conversation about the state of discipleship in the church today. 00:08:02.437 --> 00:08:09.497 And I think one of the main questions that they ask that they describe as being 00:08:09.497 --> 00:08:14.157 the shadow portion of the evangelical church today, 00:08:14.157 --> 00:08:19.097 day which is like you want to describe you're you're a little bit more in tune 00:08:19.097 --> 00:08:23.057 with the language of the shadow yeah do you want to describe kind of like what 00:08:23.057 --> 00:08:29.757 you felt like he he meant about that comment yeah so like so shadow like if 00:08:29.757 --> 00:08:33.097 you're if anyone who's listening is like really tuned in to, 00:08:34.617 --> 00:08:38.217 like psycho psychoanalytic or 00:08:38.217 --> 00:08:41.437 like psychology language and you 00:08:41.437 --> 00:08:44.197 know it's kind of an old old it's not a 00:08:44.197 --> 00:08:47.237 new it's not part of like the new part of psychology this is 00:08:47.237 --> 00:08:50.797 kind of older stuff that i think is still very valuable but 00:08:50.797 --> 00:08:56.037 the idea of us having a shadow of everyone having a shadow i when i talk about 00:08:56.037 --> 00:09:00.777 it because i i bring this up in stuff when i talk about like addiction and stuff 00:09:00.777 --> 00:09:07.977 i've done with rooted of having a false self and a shadow and the false self is like um. 00:09:09.384 --> 00:09:12.124 And maybe this isn't the right way to talk about it when we 00:09:12.124 --> 00:09:15.024 apply it to the conversation they're talking about but 00:09:15.024 --> 00:09:17.864 it's this idea of what we present to the world 00:09:17.864 --> 00:09:26.464 this false self and when we have a false self um that creates a shadow and and 00:09:26.464 --> 00:09:31.164 maybe we always will have a shadow like and the shadow is the parts of yourself 00:09:31.164 --> 00:09:36.824 that you um that you maybe don't want to accept. 00:09:37.444 --> 00:09:40.504 They can be good things and bad things like um 00:09:40.504 --> 00:09:43.444 in in christian language we might talk 00:09:43.444 --> 00:09:46.744 of them as like the old self um the old 00:09:46.744 --> 00:09:49.504 adam right the body of sin that we're trying to 00:09:49.504 --> 00:09:53.984 put to death would be included in the shadow but i would say that there's also 00:09:53.984 --> 00:10:00.364 things that end up in the shadow that are maybe good things um or maybe gifts 00:10:00.364 --> 00:10:04.184 and things like that that we maybe just don't want to accept so like all that 00:10:04.184 --> 00:10:07.904 to say that like if you're dealing with here's a classic example, 00:10:08.504 --> 00:10:12.524 if you see someone who is um 00:10:12.524 --> 00:10:17.704 you know someone who's like really kind of always making themselves the center 00:10:17.704 --> 00:10:22.844 of the stage what you like you would see them you're like oh well they're so 00:10:22.844 --> 00:10:27.904 confident they're so forward they're all of this chances are is that the more 00:10:27.904 --> 00:10:30.044 they kind of tend to put themselves out there, 00:10:30.184 --> 00:10:33.704 want the center of attention and all of that, the more likely, 00:10:33.864 --> 00:10:39.204 in just general human terms, that they have a shadow that includes significant 00:10:39.204 --> 00:10:42.264 insecurities and fear about rejection. 00:10:43.184 --> 00:10:47.344 So all that to say that there is kind of this public representation, 00:10:47.624 --> 00:10:49.804 and then there's always a shadow to it. 00:10:49.904 --> 00:10:57.484 And they kind of bring that and talk about that into church world. 00:10:57.644 --> 00:10:59.244 Yeah. Right? Applying it not 00:10:59.244 --> 00:11:04.144 just to individuals, but applying it to organizations and stuff like that. 00:11:04.344 --> 00:11:08.264 Now, I think probably the false self part of it is maybe not as helpful. 00:11:08.504 --> 00:11:10.384 Another way we could talk about it is like... 00:11:11.716 --> 00:11:15.456 Uh a lot of times like our gifts like 00:11:15.456 --> 00:11:18.816 the thing we're really good at you know um like someone 00:11:18.816 --> 00:11:22.416 who's maybe like uh an enneagram too who 00:11:22.416 --> 00:11:25.336 loves to help people loves to just always show 00:11:25.336 --> 00:11:31.056 up for people that's a gift but what's the shadow of that gift they have no 00:11:31.056 --> 00:11:37.816 boundaries you know they they um they'll make themselves physically mentally 00:11:37.816 --> 00:11:43.396 emotionally unhealthy yep in the The pursuit of being the person that shows up for the other one. 00:11:43.556 --> 00:11:48.136 Right. Yeah. So a gift and a shadow. So maybe that's an even more simpler way 00:11:48.136 --> 00:11:50.136 to kind of talk about it than the way I was talking about it. 00:11:50.196 --> 00:11:55.376 But so all that to say, they're just like, all right, the church has a shadow. Has a shadow. 00:11:55.496 --> 00:11:58.416 There's things that the church has that are gifts. Yep. 00:11:58.696 --> 00:12:03.296 Right? Which they don't talk too much about, but there are gifts to the way 00:12:03.296 --> 00:12:06.296 that our churches operate and things like that. 00:12:06.456 --> 00:12:10.576 But with those gifts, perhaps exist shadows. shadows, so. Yes. 00:12:10.736 --> 00:12:15.836 Yeah, that's essentially what they said is like, is the church aware of its shadows? 00:12:16.136 --> 00:12:22.816 Generally, you have to be pretty self-aware to be aware of your shadow, 00:12:22.876 --> 00:12:25.356 whether you're a church or a person. 00:12:25.856 --> 00:12:32.796 But they talk about it specifically as it pertains to discipleship. 00:12:33.696 --> 00:12:34.536 So the. 00:12:35.968 --> 00:12:40.388 The self right the church um does 00:12:40.388 --> 00:12:43.288 a lot of things to help people grow in their 00:12:43.288 --> 00:12:47.248 relationship with jesus right they offer communal worship 00:12:47.248 --> 00:12:50.308 services and small groups and sunday school 00:12:50.308 --> 00:12:53.988 classes and bible studies and opportunities to 00:12:53.988 --> 00:13:00.988 serve and to fellowship with one another and all of these things and and so 00:13:00.988 --> 00:13:05.988 they're offering they're doing all of these things with the the intention of 00:13:05.988 --> 00:13:11.648 we want you to become more and more like Jesus. Yep. And we want you to become closer to Jesus. 00:13:12.228 --> 00:13:14.308 Great. Mm-hmm. That's what we want too. 00:13:15.268 --> 00:13:22.768 But then the question that is asked, which kind of is like the shadow question is, 00:13:23.708 --> 00:13:28.428 how many of us are, how many churches or church leaders, 00:13:28.588 --> 00:13:33.528 pastors, whatever are actually willing 00:13:33.528 --> 00:13:36.468 to ask the question of whether or not 00:13:36.468 --> 00:13:40.328 the current methods are effective yeah are 00:13:40.328 --> 00:13:43.248 they working or effective to what limit 00:13:43.248 --> 00:13:46.548 right to what stage of discipleship to 00:13:46.548 --> 00:13:51.668 what stage of like yeah spiritual growth and they 00:13:51.668 --> 00:13:57.488 um they mentioned a few books the critical journey is one they talk quite a 00:13:57.488 --> 00:14:02.808 bit about you and i have that book here i've never read it but i've picked it 00:14:02.808 --> 00:14:07.588 up so i've read it like twice i think now yeah um but they. 00:14:09.548 --> 00:14:12.648 You know john mark comer essentially is like 00:14:12.648 --> 00:14:20.528 i i am not sure that the church is honest enough enough with itself to deal 00:14:20.528 --> 00:14:29.928 with the shadow of our ineffectiveness at moving people through or bringing people, 00:14:30.088 --> 00:14:32.428 apprenticing people to Jesus. 00:14:32.668 --> 00:14:34.848 Yeah. And so... 00:14:36.877 --> 00:14:44.717 Um what do you think about that i think he's right yeah i do i think he's right um. 00:14:45.677 --> 00:14:49.157 And it it may be like it may 00:14:49.157 --> 00:14:52.017 be a little bit anecdotal but i feel 00:14:52.017 --> 00:14:55.177 like if i look across the 00:14:55.177 --> 00:14:57.957 span i would love to 00:14:57.957 --> 00:15:00.737 know okay jesus and when i get to heaven 00:15:00.737 --> 00:15:03.517 someday please tell me the amount amount of people please answer 00:15:03.517 --> 00:15:06.657 this question for me um i would 00:15:06.657 --> 00:15:09.697 love to know then the number of individual 00:15:09.697 --> 00:15:14.257 people that have been like have 00:15:14.257 --> 00:15:16.937 come through one of the 00:15:16.937 --> 00:15:20.477 three churches that i've served in my time in ministry who 00:15:20.477 --> 00:15:23.317 have considered me their pastor who have sat under my teaching 00:15:23.317 --> 00:15:26.237 and leadership whatever the number of people 00:15:26.237 --> 00:15:30.137 first and then 00:15:30.137 --> 00:15:33.677 the second thing is um i 00:15:33.677 --> 00:15:37.077 would like to know the number of 00:15:37.077 --> 00:15:42.317 people that i would confidently 00:15:42.317 --> 00:15:51.877 say the systems structures the programs the churches that have led have provided 00:15:51.877 --> 00:15:57.117 them the best framework to move 00:15:57.117 --> 00:16:01.197 from the life of sin to the life of righteousness or the life of like, 00:16:01.277 --> 00:16:05.697 you know, knowing nothing about Jesus, 00:16:05.817 --> 00:16:08.577 not walking with Jesus, not living like Jesus, 00:16:08.717 --> 00:16:11.457 not in communion with the Spirit. 00:16:11.617 --> 00:16:19.297 Not any any of those things to like fully thriving disciple. 00:16:20.477 --> 00:16:23.117 Apprentice, follower of Jesus. 00:16:24.057 --> 00:16:33.657 And if I'm honest with myself, I would have to say that that number is perilously low. 00:16:37.355 --> 00:16:42.995 Because I think in a lot of ways, there are, of course, people upon people upon 00:16:42.995 --> 00:16:46.495 people upon people upon people whose lives are changed. Yes, yes. 00:16:47.255 --> 00:16:51.415 I'm not saying that all of my ministry is bad. No, no. 00:16:51.635 --> 00:16:58.955 Or that the people that are in my church now at Conduit, that they're all untransformed. 00:16:58.975 --> 00:17:00.075 I'm not saying that at all. 00:17:00.155 --> 00:17:04.435 Right. But what I'm saying is that I think that the proportion of people who 00:17:04.435 --> 00:17:10.175 enter into the discipleship ministries of just about any evangelical church 00:17:10.175 --> 00:17:19.335 now walk through the majority of their life relatively untransformed. 00:17:19.615 --> 00:17:26.995 And so it makes me question the method because I don't know. 00:17:27.035 --> 00:17:29.815 I can't really question anything else. I can't really question their, 00:17:29.895 --> 00:17:38.455 like, the individual person's, like, effort or, like, the authenticity of their 00:17:38.455 --> 00:17:40.615 conversion or anything like that. 00:17:40.675 --> 00:17:47.735 All I can do is say, well, it doesn't feel like we're getting the results that 00:17:47.735 --> 00:17:54.535 we should get if we all agree that, oh, these are the things that build disciples. 00:17:54.875 --> 00:17:56.975 Small groups and teaching and fellowship. 00:17:56.975 --> 00:17:59.835 Well because like we we 00:17:59.835 --> 00:18:04.435 live in a like um program a 00:18:04.435 --> 00:18:09.135 little bit or like a programmatic world dramatic based ministry and so and like 00:18:09.135 --> 00:18:14.415 i've kind of said this um i know i've said this to you and i've probably said 00:18:14.415 --> 00:18:22.375 this on the podcast but like if our definition of discipleship is is, you know, like. 00:18:23.495 --> 00:18:25.295 Yeah, I'll name it. 00:18:25.335 --> 00:18:30.355 So, like, churches have some version of, like, this as their discipleship plan. 00:18:30.975 --> 00:18:33.295 Gather, grow, and go. 00:18:35.383 --> 00:18:40.643 Gather on Sunday morning to worship the Lord, praise, and fellowship, and hear the teaching. 00:18:41.063 --> 00:18:46.803 We grow together in community. We get together midweek where we have a Bible 00:18:46.803 --> 00:18:52.343 study together, and we grow through reading the Word together and praying with one another. 00:18:52.583 --> 00:18:57.183 And then you've got to go by serving on Sunday morning. 00:18:58.483 --> 00:19:01.583 Or, at best, serving in some sort of outreach. 00:19:01.583 --> 00:19:04.383 Reach maybe i'd say a lot of churches you know 00:19:04.383 --> 00:19:07.563 substitute going out into the world for coming 00:19:07.563 --> 00:19:11.563 and serving at sunday morning services um that's 00:19:11.563 --> 00:19:18.303 oh that's disgustingly true yeah like i and the thing is is the reason i was 00:19:18.303 --> 00:19:22.063 hesitant to say this is because i know that there are churches that literally 00:19:22.063 --> 00:19:26.123 have that language on their website gather grow and go i'm not picking on you 00:19:26.123 --> 00:19:27.933 we I'm not picking on you specifically. 00:19:28.153 --> 00:19:30.193 It just is really nice alliteration. 00:19:30.653 --> 00:19:37.413 But if you pull up any church, not any church, but a lot of churches, 00:19:37.453 --> 00:19:38.873 you'll find some version. 00:19:39.053 --> 00:19:40.913 The words might change. 00:19:41.313 --> 00:19:46.193 But essentially what they're saying is show up Sunday, join a small group, 00:19:46.253 --> 00:19:51.313 midweek thing, and then somehow serve either the church or the community. 00:19:51.633 --> 00:19:55.193 And if you do those three things, that's what it means to be a disciple. 00:19:56.393 --> 00:20:02.553 And the thing about that is, is that you can max out that definition of discipleship inside of a week. 00:20:05.233 --> 00:20:10.153 I can show up to a church if I don't just show up, and I kind of like shop around 00:20:10.153 --> 00:20:14.593 for a little bit, but if I show up, I fill out whatever stupid card that we have, 00:20:14.773 --> 00:20:18.513 and then turn it in, and then I do the thing, and I show up to the group, 00:20:18.553 --> 00:20:22.993 and I serve on a Sunday morning, I've reached the maximum definition of what 00:20:22.993 --> 00:20:25.253 practically it means to be a disciple. example. 00:20:27.453 --> 00:20:30.453 Does that make maturity? Right. 00:20:31.153 --> 00:20:35.613 And so, yeah, there, I said it. Yeah. Well, good. Good for you. 00:20:35.633 --> 00:20:36.553 You let your voice be known. 00:20:38.813 --> 00:20:41.013 Yeah. So, 00:20:43.126 --> 00:20:47.406 I think that, you know, that's kind of the crux of what they talk about is, 00:20:47.986 --> 00:20:49.346 is this an effective method? 00:20:50.566 --> 00:20:55.986 Is it really doing what we want it to do? Or is it doing what Jesus wants it 00:20:55.986 --> 00:20:57.446 to do? Maybe that's a better question. 00:20:57.846 --> 00:21:00.706 And I don't, it does do stuff. 00:21:01.286 --> 00:21:07.106 Does? It does. And it, you know, I don't want to like completely undermine it 00:21:07.106 --> 00:21:10.746 because it does like going to Sunday service is important. 00:21:10.986 --> 00:21:14.226 We do think going to a small group is important. We do think serving is important. 00:21:14.446 --> 00:21:17.486 Yep. And they do form us. Uh-huh. 00:21:18.486 --> 00:21:26.126 I think the problem twofold is that sometimes they lack some of the completeness. 00:21:26.866 --> 00:21:32.466 They like, particularly if they're not, depending on how they're done, 00:21:32.606 --> 00:21:35.626 too, like a different type of small group. 00:21:36.086 --> 00:21:38.666 There's different, you know, there's different types of small groups. 00:21:38.846 --> 00:21:43.766 Uh-huh. and there are some small groups that might be really helpful when you're 00:21:43.766 --> 00:21:44.806 really early in your faith. 00:21:45.166 --> 00:21:49.006 But is that the same type of small group that's going to be helpful in five, 00:21:49.026 --> 00:21:52.286 ten years down the walk with the Lord? 00:21:52.826 --> 00:21:56.566 Do you need something different? And that's kind of where that question comes 00:21:56.566 --> 00:22:01.846 in is, does this kind of gather, grow, and go, this like three kind of little 00:22:01.846 --> 00:22:06.466 programmatic pieces, do those help make full disciples? 00:22:06.466 --> 00:22:12.246 I think they help make some kind of disciples and make you disciples to a degree. 00:22:12.746 --> 00:22:17.766 But then the question is, what's the shadow? What's the missing part of it? 00:22:17.866 --> 00:22:23.366 And like you were saying, is it doing what Jesus wants it to do? Wants it to do. Yeah. 00:22:25.466 --> 00:22:34.206 One of the things that they talk about is the incompleteness of the word discipleship. Mm-hmm. 00:22:35.240 --> 00:22:42.380 And, you know, I'm not a Greek expert, so I don't really know, to be honest with you. 00:22:42.460 --> 00:22:48.720 I haven't done the work on it, but about how the word there, 00:22:48.800 --> 00:22:53.360 disciple, really is probably better translated as apprentice. Yeah. 00:22:53.820 --> 00:23:00.060 I mean, I'll tease a little bit from the book, but essentially that word disciple 00:23:00.060 --> 00:23:05.360 is really tied to Jesus' role as a rabbi, as teacher. 00:23:05.740 --> 00:23:14.180 And the culture around... Because rabbis would go and get disciples. 00:23:14.440 --> 00:23:17.480 So what Jesus did, what we see in the Gospels, where Jesus... 00:23:17.480 --> 00:23:20.040 Students. We get students. Get students, right? 00:23:20.140 --> 00:23:24.000 He goes and calls disciples. He goes and calls them, right? He calls them away 00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:25.460 from their nets to come and follow him. 00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:30.380 It's not a thing that nobody had ever done before. 00:23:31.220 --> 00:23:34.180 Jesus did it different than anybody else had done it before. 00:23:34.840 --> 00:23:40.440 But there were other rabbis, other than Jesus, that went around and taught. 00:23:40.760 --> 00:23:45.300 Other rabbis who went and got students to follow follow them, and things like that. 00:23:45.420 --> 00:23:51.720 And so, it wasn't like, you know, the apostles, the disciples were like, 00:23:51.900 --> 00:23:53.840 what's he mean, come and follow him? 00:23:53.940 --> 00:23:58.980 They knew what he meant, come and be my student, come be with me, 00:23:59.160 --> 00:24:02.080 be like me, and do what I do, right? 00:24:02.180 --> 00:24:05.060 Which is, you know, the paradigm that's in Comer's book. 00:24:05.700 --> 00:24:11.700 And so, his argument is that, because disciple is kind of an antiquated word 00:24:11.700 --> 00:24:14.620 word for us. We don't use it anywhere. 00:24:15.340 --> 00:24:20.080 But a word that maybe makes better sense, he argues, is apprentice. 00:24:23.096 --> 00:24:26.656 And you said student, right? That also kind of works. 00:24:26.856 --> 00:24:32.596 Yeah. Except it carries probably too much of an academic or intellectual model. 00:24:32.836 --> 00:24:42.416 Yeah. Where apprentice gets a little bit more to the heart of the role of demonstration. 00:24:43.036 --> 00:24:43.676 Yeah. 00:24:44.436 --> 00:24:51.436 The role of demonstration on the part of the teacher or master or whomever. 00:24:51.436 --> 00:24:55.116 And then the expectation that 00:24:55.116 --> 00:25:03.496 the apprentice allow that demonstration to inform their own work. Yeah. 00:25:05.296 --> 00:25:11.056 And I thought I was thinking about it in terms of, because they mentioned this, of like it's training. 00:25:12.756 --> 00:25:17.396 Like when we talk about discipleship, it's training. We're talking about apprenticing 00:25:17.396 --> 00:25:18.836 Jesus. We're being trained. 00:25:19.096 --> 00:25:25.016 Yep. and i'm like 00:25:25.016 --> 00:25:36.176 i'm currently training to run a marathon in may and like i'm not i'm not out 00:25:36.176 --> 00:25:42.476 of shape by any by any means no but like i'm also not necessarily in marathon 00:25:42.476 --> 00:25:44.716 shape shape. Sure. I'm not in running shape. 00:25:45.476 --> 00:25:52.136 So I've been training and I have been running and making sure my strength program 00:25:52.136 --> 00:25:56.216 is like conducive to runner's strength, not necessarily like the other types 00:25:56.216 --> 00:25:57.176 of things that I was doing. 00:25:58.616 --> 00:26:08.836 And the reality is that I, you know, if I went out and tried to run the marathon right now. 00:26:10.727 --> 00:26:19.027 With little training, my body and my mind's response to it would be like failure. 00:26:19.247 --> 00:26:20.287 Yeah. You're going to fail. 00:26:20.547 --> 00:26:24.047 Right. It's going to crash and burn. Yeah. We'd find you halfway. 00:26:24.487 --> 00:26:26.207 Right. Curled up in a ball. Right. 00:26:28.247 --> 00:26:33.127 You'd find me a quarter of the way. One of the things that I have done is I 00:26:33.127 --> 00:26:36.267 have enlisted the help of someone who has run marathons before, 00:26:36.347 --> 00:26:38.467 and they've developed a training plan for me. 00:26:38.987 --> 00:26:41.987 Gonna run this many miles on this day this many miles 00:26:41.987 --> 00:26:44.787 on this day this many miles on this day right and 00:26:44.787 --> 00:26:47.487 week by week by week the miles increase until you 00:26:47.487 --> 00:26:52.627 get to the point where you can successfully run the marathon and what 00:26:52.627 --> 00:26:57.047 i feel like the church does which 00:26:57.047 --> 00:27:00.367 is an interesting way to talk about it because i am essentially 00:27:00.367 --> 00:27:03.647 um um talking about 00:27:03.647 --> 00:27:06.367 myself yeah i know this feels is 00:27:06.367 --> 00:27:09.547 really like are we calling ourselves out yeah we're talking 00:27:09.547 --> 00:27:12.687 about the shadow yeah we're just talking about the the reality of 00:27:12.687 --> 00:27:16.867 it right um is we i 00:27:16.867 --> 00:27:19.707 actually said this this sunday from the pulpit i was like well 00:27:19.707 --> 00:27:22.387 you want to know the answer to intimacy with jesus you're not going 00:27:22.387 --> 00:27:25.807 to like the answer because it's the same answer that's always been right 00:27:25.807 --> 00:27:29.087 it's it's an intentional 00:27:29.087 --> 00:27:32.087 time with him right it's you 00:27:32.087 --> 00:27:34.947 know building out time with him 00:27:34.947 --> 00:27:41.367 time in his word yeah right um time in prayer listening to like speaking in 00:27:41.367 --> 00:27:47.467 prayer listening in prayer responding in prayer not just hearing but doing yeah 00:27:47.467 --> 00:27:53.647 the things like obeying his commands you know we're talking from um john John chapter 15, 00:27:53.867 --> 00:27:56.307 you know, those who love me obey my commands. Yep. 00:28:01.507 --> 00:28:04.767 And so, where was I going with that? 00:28:05.307 --> 00:28:08.627 The church is kind of guilty. You were on that training metaphor. Yeah, okay. 00:28:08.687 --> 00:28:13.287 So, like, the church is kind of guilty of just saying, read your Bible more, 00:28:13.447 --> 00:28:15.707 pray more, come to church. 00:28:17.567 --> 00:28:24.547 Just do that. Just do that. And that's kind of the, I feel like, 00:28:24.567 --> 00:28:29.327 the parallel of being just like, 00:28:29.427 --> 00:28:33.087 just go run the marathon. 00:28:34.087 --> 00:28:39.407 Yeah. Just put your running shoes on. Mm-hmm. 00:28:40.912 --> 00:28:44.672 Put your running clothes on and just go out and start running and like, 00:28:45.732 --> 00:28:48.152 you know, just don't stop until you're done. 00:28:48.292 --> 00:28:51.712 And then like you're, you know, you're a marathon runner, right? 00:28:52.092 --> 00:29:01.212 Where it's not taking into account that there are like people who are obese 00:29:01.212 --> 00:29:06.832 and out of shape and their nutrition is bad and they've never run a mile. 00:29:07.232 --> 00:29:10.332 And now we want them to run 26.2. 00:29:11.092 --> 00:29:17.072 And so i take that kind of correlation into the life of discipleship or apprenticeship 00:29:17.072 --> 00:29:23.472 or training or whatever and the thing is is that i actually still think that the answer is the answer, 00:29:24.632 --> 00:29:29.352 or at least it's a part of the answer i still do think that you know time with 00:29:29.352 --> 00:29:33.212 the lord in his word and in prayer and doing the things that he like i think 00:29:33.212 --> 00:29:36.212 that's part of the answer yeah it is but But the question is, 00:29:36.232 --> 00:29:41.012 is like, what is our expectation of people's intensity in that? Right. 00:29:41.692 --> 00:29:48.132 And are we showing them what it means to read the word? 00:29:48.312 --> 00:29:51.032 Yeah. Are we showing them what it means to pray? 00:29:51.612 --> 00:29:58.812 Jesus taught his disciples how to pray and he modeled prayer and he brought 00:29:58.812 --> 00:30:04.352 them along with him as he prayed and they heard his prayers and they witnessed 00:30:04.352 --> 00:30:07.712 his prayers and he He taught them about prayer, right? 00:30:09.812 --> 00:30:17.912 And so he was offering them like the apprentice model of prayer development, prayer life. 00:30:18.952 --> 00:30:25.472 So my question then for myself and for the shadow life of the church is, 00:30:25.692 --> 00:30:34.952 okay, am I expending energy as a pastor and shepherd and teacher and all that? 00:30:37.012 --> 00:30:41.832 In helping people walk the first mile? Yeah. 00:30:42.452 --> 00:30:47.232 Am I teaching them how to read the word? Mm-hmm. Am I breaking down the barriers 00:30:47.232 --> 00:30:53.132 of the social church constructs that says you have to read three chapters a day? Mm-hmm. 00:30:53.312 --> 00:30:56.172 And you have to do it every day. And you got to start in Genesis. 00:30:56.492 --> 00:30:58.452 And you got to get up at 5 a.m. 00:30:59.892 --> 00:31:03.832 With your perfectly brewed coffee. Right. Posted on Instagram. 00:31:03.832 --> 00:31:06.312 Which is kind of like the expectation. 00:31:07.672 --> 00:31:09.152 But is it... 00:31:11.331 --> 00:31:15.711 Is it apprenticing people? Right. I don't think it is. 00:31:15.871 --> 00:31:20.551 Yeah. Or, like, it's, because, like, I'm going to make an assumption, 00:31:20.691 --> 00:31:26.711 because I don't train with you. I don't know any martial arts. 00:31:26.831 --> 00:31:31.811 But I'm assuming that when you train people in jiu-jitsu, like, 00:31:31.911 --> 00:31:36.011 you're, like, scaffolding them. 00:31:36.011 --> 00:31:39.571 Them you've got to teach like a basic like 00:31:39.571 --> 00:31:42.511 move or form or 00:31:42.511 --> 00:31:45.491 thing to do and then i'm probably when 00:31:45.491 --> 00:31:48.671 even when you're kind of like practicing with them you're probably 00:31:48.671 --> 00:31:51.611 even just kind of like all right they kind of did that right but i'm 00:31:51.611 --> 00:31:55.151 not you're not really like you're not 00:31:55.151 --> 00:31:58.431 when you're sparring with someone who's just brand new you're not 00:31:58.431 --> 00:32:01.351 going full bore no you're you're actually 00:32:01.351 --> 00:32:05.051 you're probably just like okay i need them to get this technique down 00:32:05.051 --> 00:32:08.611 even though i know i can counter that with this i'm 00:32:08.611 --> 00:32:11.411 just simply not going to use that yeah i'm 00:32:11.411 --> 00:32:14.571 teaching my son jujitsu right now right right yeah yeah who 00:32:14.571 --> 00:32:20.911 is like half your height yeah um and you know but then there's also so i think 00:32:20.911 --> 00:32:24.091 i think you're right i think there's that we're not giving people that early 00:32:24.091 --> 00:32:29.031 scaffolding that early learning but then i also think that there's this other 00:32:29.031 --> 00:32:34.251 component in which there are are people who have managed to make it to a certain level, 00:32:34.791 --> 00:32:39.871 and then they don't know what else is next, or they don't know how to get to the next thing. Yep. 00:32:41.111 --> 00:32:47.131 Because there's different types of praying, you know, in different ways to read 00:32:47.131 --> 00:32:50.791 Scripture, in different levels on which to read Scripture. 00:32:52.491 --> 00:33:00.151 And, you know, those don't always fit into programs, or at least traditional evangelical programs, 00:33:00.811 --> 00:33:06.931 as nicely or neatly and that leaves people getting to a certain level and then 00:33:06.931 --> 00:33:13.091 they're like okay well i've stalled out here and then what are they going to do yep, 00:33:14.977 --> 00:33:26.297 agree um so i think it requires a little bit of honest examination by churches to say um, 00:33:27.437 --> 00:33:34.237 when i think this is john mark comer's frustration with the church is when are we going to, 00:33:35.497 --> 00:33:41.457 stop doing this and start doing something else yeah when are we going to do, 00:33:41.597 --> 00:33:45.017 when are we going to recognize, 00:33:45.337 --> 00:33:53.077 admit, and then rectify the reality that this is not doing for people what? 00:33:54.397 --> 00:33:58.757 What we hope it would. Right. Or what we think Christ wants from us. 00:34:00.057 --> 00:34:08.097 Right. So that's an honest question that needs examination, I think, 00:34:08.117 --> 00:34:10.977 by every church leader. Yeah. Myself included. Mm-hmm. 00:34:11.637 --> 00:34:14.137 We're trying, we're thinking about it. We are. 00:34:16.177 --> 00:34:20.857 Does that help? I mean, I think so. Yeah? Yeah. 00:34:23.837 --> 00:34:27.197 Yeah. You know, if you, if you want some good reading, I would go, 00:34:27.237 --> 00:34:31.577 we'll link the podcast here, the Newhoff podcast. 00:34:34.017 --> 00:34:37.177 We'll link John's new book. Yeah. 00:34:37.337 --> 00:34:43.137 Practicing the Way. Yeah. And maybe we can link the Critical Journey book as well. 00:34:44.657 --> 00:34:50.337 And those give you an opportunity for some deeper learning if you want or some 00:34:50.337 --> 00:34:53.377 deeper exposure to these ideas. 00:34:55.797 --> 00:35:00.997 And as always, if you feel like you have something to say about this or other 00:35:00.997 --> 00:35:03.697 things, you want to comment on the video, if you're watching on YouTube, 00:35:03.797 --> 00:35:04.797 it's easiest there probably. 00:35:05.417 --> 00:35:12.217 Please do so. So if you have a question or a comment or you want us to kind 00:35:12.217 --> 00:35:16.617 of tackle some topic that's been on your mind or heart or scripture or whatever, 00:35:16.857 --> 00:35:18.537 you can always text it to us. 00:35:18.597 --> 00:35:24.337 We have a texting line here for the podcast. It's 716-201-0507. 00:35:24.917 --> 00:35:29.877 And we will address that pretty quick, usually. 00:35:30.097 --> 00:35:33.757 I mean, we record every week, so we'd like to be able to get to those. 00:35:33.757 --> 00:35:37.057 As always if you would uh we thank 00:35:37.057 --> 00:35:40.077 you for listening if you would uh like this 00:35:40.077 --> 00:35:43.437 episode like the podcast share it subscribe 00:35:43.437 --> 00:35:46.397 to it wherever it is you're listening if you're not any of 00:35:46.397 --> 00:35:51.677 those things that would be super helpful and encouraging for us um you'll be 00:35:51.677 --> 00:35:57.957 happy to know that we get paid nothing for this um zero so um we're not sponsored 00:35:57.957 --> 00:36:01.837 by anything we're not sponsored Although I still am looking for sponsorships 00:36:01.837 --> 00:36:04.097 from energy drink companies. 00:36:05.552 --> 00:36:11.212 New year new me i have drastically reduced my consumption of energy drinks so for you, 00:36:11.952 --> 00:36:18.452 i've been doing a lot of reading and a lot of study on the um like half-life 00:36:18.452 --> 00:36:23.152 of stuff this is a ps to the podcast but like some of you know some of you don't 00:36:23.152 --> 00:36:25.632 know that i have a second job, 00:36:26.272 --> 00:36:33.872 as a chaplain for police agencies in chautauqua county yeah and so um and a 00:36:33.872 --> 00:36:37.632 lot of my work is is around helping officers process complex trauma. 00:36:39.752 --> 00:36:45.152 And in my reading, one of the major times that officers process complex trauma 00:36:45.152 --> 00:36:50.692 is during REM sleep, or when people process complex trauma is during REM sleep. 00:36:50.932 --> 00:36:56.712 Your brain replays those in your eyes going back and forth, kind of puts it 00:36:56.712 --> 00:36:58.932 in the right place in your brain. Yeah. Right? 00:36:59.152 --> 00:37:01.572 Puts that memory in the right place. Yep. 00:37:03.172 --> 00:37:09.112 Well, in order to get to REM sleep, you have to go to sleep. Yes. 00:37:09.312 --> 00:37:15.592 You know, and there is a tremendous issue within the law enforcement community. 00:37:15.872 --> 00:37:18.712 Right, yeah. The overconsumption of caffeine. Yeah. 00:37:19.312 --> 00:37:24.192 Working a long shift, working a late shift, like let's just pound a monster or a red bull. A couple. 00:37:24.392 --> 00:37:26.572 You know, they come on shift, they grab a coffee in their car. 00:37:26.752 --> 00:37:30.072 And then a couple hours later, it's a energy drink. 00:37:30.072 --> 00:37:32.312 And then towards the end of the shift, they're on a long call, 00:37:32.452 --> 00:37:35.992 they need to pick me up, they grab another one and so on a shift, 00:37:36.072 --> 00:37:41.912 you're six, seven, eight, 900 milligrams of caffeine into your body and then 00:37:41.912 --> 00:37:43.112 you go home and you try to sleep. 00:37:44.792 --> 00:37:50.072 They can't sleep and so what do they do? They have a drink. Right. Alcohol. 00:37:50.952 --> 00:37:54.232 Which also inhibit, it might help you fall asleep initially. 00:37:54.992 --> 00:37:59.012 It does not help you. It disrupts REM sleep. Yes, it disrupts REM. Alcohol disrupts REM. 00:37:59.132 --> 00:38:02.652 Right. So now you have an overconsumption of caffeine and an overconsumption 00:38:02.652 --> 00:38:04.772 of alcohol and you miss REM sleep. 00:38:04.872 --> 00:38:10.732 And then you do that over the course of a 20 to 25 year career. 00:38:10.892 --> 00:38:16.952 Yeah. And your ability to process complex trauma has been greatly diminished. 00:38:18.318 --> 00:38:21.858 Because you had too many energy drinks as a part of that. Yeah. 00:38:21.858 --> 00:38:26.118 And caffeine too, like how's that like half-life it takes. 12-hour half-life. 00:38:26.358 --> 00:38:33.858 So it takes so long for that cup of coffee you had at even noon to be out of your system. 00:38:34.198 --> 00:38:39.238 So if I have a 150 milligram of caffeine cup of coffee at noon, 00:38:39.458 --> 00:38:43.358 which is a pretty high, it's a pretty big cup of coffee. 00:38:43.458 --> 00:38:46.318 Yeah. Usually coffee is like 80 to 90 milligrams for an eight ounce cup. 00:38:46.458 --> 00:38:49.278 Yeah. so say i have a 16 ounce cup 00:38:49.278 --> 00:38:52.178 i'm in the 150 to 200 00:38:52.178 --> 00:38:55.398 milligram range of caffeine at 12 00:38:55.398 --> 00:38:58.838 noon at midnight i'm gonna 00:38:58.838 --> 00:39:01.638 have half that yeah so caffeine has a half life of 12 00:39:01.638 --> 00:39:05.338 hours so at midnight i'm gonna have best case 00:39:05.338 --> 00:39:08.518 scenario 100 grams of 100 milligrams of 00:39:08.518 --> 00:39:13.898 caffeine in my system right still affecting still disruptive to rem yeah so 00:39:13.898 --> 00:39:23.678 um it's i said a lot to say i'm still willing to take energy drink sponsorships 00:39:23.678 --> 00:39:26.878 we'll just have to record way earlier in the day. 00:39:29.558 --> 00:39:34.998 Um and um and yeah if you're interested in that kind of stuff which i really 00:39:34.998 --> 00:39:37.918 that is really fascinating to me so i've been reading a lot on it, 00:39:41.038 --> 00:39:46.118 But it's super important. It is. Take care of your body, too. All right. 00:39:46.320 --> 00:40:00.686 Music.