Welcome to the third and final episode of Cripping Ulysses. My name is Sinéad Burke and I have been your host and facilitator for the past three conversations. I've just finished recording with this week's guest and it's strange in some ways to be announcing that at the beginning of the episode. But well, to give you an insight into how these things are made, the introduction is recorded afterwards. The key theme that has come out of these three conversations has been questioning the notion of independence, particularly from a disability consciousness. In the first episode, Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh live at the Museum of Literature Ireland
Invited us all to interrogate why we need and require disabled people to be independent in order to be valid and exist. In episode two, a Alok V. Menon talked about the urgency for love, both in ourselves and in each other, which will in turn shape the world and how those mindsets and behaviors that we have around expectation or who we have to be or how the world sees us are barriers to how we love ourselves. And this conversation with Kimberly Drew brought out honest reflections from actually the first time we met as friends in 2019 and how we were different people then how we have evolved, become stronger, become more vulnerable, become more in need of care, more in need of community, but also how we learn from who the world wanted us to be in those moments. When I first set out to do this podcast, I had this ambition to introduce you to people that I love and admire.
I think in many ways I had a sense of confidence, but I knew what these conversations would be and probably in some ways an arrogance that I wouldn't learn anything cuz I knew who these people were and I knew who I was. Gosh, three episodes in that couldn't be further from the truth. These conversations have genuinely changed me, have given me new ambitions to seek for myself, have continued to remind me the work that needs to be done on myself. And actually in many ways has been a gift of time and grace with myself and with other disabled people and neuro divergent people to really reassess what's it all for.
And for me, I guess in many ways, it's for us all to have a disability consciousness and for us to feel a sense of energy, opportunity, obligation, and even more for us to feel accountable in making that tangible, measurable and real. While we're here, this is the final episode of Clipping Ulysses, and I could not be more thrilled to do this with such a dear friend and genuinely one of the people that I admire most in the world. Today we are going to have a conversation with Kimberly Drew. Kimberly is a writer, a thought leader, a curator, and somebody who has taught me so much about the art world, but just life in general. But before we go any further, I'm gonna visually describe myself. I have just gotten home off a flight to London and I'm more glamorous than I usually am in that my hair has been blow dried and quaffed.
So this visual description is unique <laugh> in that I am wearing a black cashmere Burberry jumper. I am wearing a navy Dior new look, bell skirt with a belt that is difficult to difficult for my respiratory system is what I would say in terms of the level of cinching. But it looks good and a pair of slippers because I'm home and we can't be chic all of the time. But I identify as a queer disabled woman. I use the pronouns, she and her, and I am white and cisgendered and I have brown shoulder and hair. That was a reverse visual description, but thank you for your grace as I moved through that ensemble first and then identity. But before we get into the conversation, I would love Kimberly for you to visually describe yourself, please.
Yes. Um, I am a black person with a tiny little copper colored afro. Um, most of this conversation as you, um, might assume I will be smiling <laugh> very big. Um, it is an honor to be joining you Sinéad. I'm currently wearing one of my favorite sweatshirts. It's this camouflage sweatshirt. And recently I learned that there are different type of camouflage that are based on different leaves. So you'll see different leaf types and I think that mine is decorated with the oak leaf if that means and resonates with anyone. Um, and I, I think that that sums my visual description.
I like it. You're also in LA? Oh
Yes. And I am reporting live from a closet in Los Angeles, California. <laugh> sat on the floor, um, but very cozy <laugh>.
How's LA treating you so far?
LA has been really good. I came here for the opportunity to work in a slower paced environment. Um, I am recently moving into um, more of an awareness of my own neurodivergence and some of the things that it requires. Um, I wanna use a word other than maintenance, but maintenance is the word that really resonates right now. And as part of that maintenance of my brain, um, I came out to LA just to be able to do maybe the same amount of things but um, with a different pace. So I've been able to slow down, get things knocked off the list, but not feel the same like rat race that New York sometimes can require of us.
Over the past three episodes, it's been easy for listeners or those engaging with the transcription to think that this has been one person leading all of this. But actually the team of tilting the lens have been hugely influential in shaping these dialogues. And at our team meeting this week, I asked everybody, what are you coming to this moment with? And everybody answered it based on their own definition and based on their own experiences in that moment. So a question I'd love for both of us to answer is what are you coming to this conversation with?
I think I'm coming to this conversation as all of our conversations with confidence. Like we've been talking for a very long time now, which is so wild. And I know every time that we talk, my perspective is going to shift. And I love that. I love, one of the themes that we've had over the years in our conversations is this understanding that you're not going to be right all the time. That there is a lot of work to be done. And I think the more and more that we have these conversations, I know that I'm not walking away from it with shame, but just like more, more ammunition or something less like violent than that, but just feeling more full.
I think that's such an apt way to describe it. I remember one of the very first conversations you and I had and that moment of perspectives shifting. And I think also from a very early moment of our relationship, perhaps we could couldn't even describe it as such. I remember meeting you in the Met at I think maybe a press preview for an upcoming exhibition in the costume institute. And I came up to you and I was like, it's so lovely to meet you. I think,
Sorry to interrupt. It was, wasn't it the first time you went to the Met Gala?
Yeah, I think
It was. Or were you in town from Met Gala?
I think maybe it was the previous one I think. Yeah,
No, it was when you were at the, you were at the Met Gala. Oh yes. You came to the press preview and I like was so excited to meet you. We got our first photo together and then you went to the fucking Met Gala. Let's tell the story. <laugh>, okay, we're gonna tell the stories, we're gonna tell the stories because you looked fab and it was historic if only for the personal note of you looking fabulous and adding it to the lexicon of images of you looking like a fucking badass
<laugh>. Well thank you. That's very generous of you. But I remember the conversation you and I had in that moment because I came up to you and I was like, gosh, I feel like I've been stalking you on all of these platforms. And you took a moment and you went stalking really? And we had this brief interaction around how we use language and I remember it being one of those transformative moments for me in thinking about what do we mean when we say certain words and what is the other language that is less violent, less harmful, less triggering? And how do we actually be real and clear about what it is we're trying to say? And even more, how do we be generous with one another in those moments of friction when there is either miscommunication or a lack of education on one person's side around those meanings.
And I think for me, that moment was so transformative because I also knew that it was coming out of place of love for me but also for yourself. And I remember thinking, it's really important we do that <laugh>. And I would often be a person, I think particularly in that moment several years ago where I'm not sure I would've had the confidence always to be that person in that conversation and go, let's pause and reflect here. <laugh> Particularly so early on. And I was genuinely changed by that. And maybe it's a moment you don't remember, but I absolutely do. And for me I was like, okay, this person is gonna be my friend and I'm so grateful for it.
One of the things that I've been thinking a lot about recently is the ways in which those conversations allow us to invest in each other.
Because I think if I didn't have the full intention on being your friend and wiggling myself into your life, I could have just let it pass. But instead it was this moment where I think a lot of us find ourselves, and especially as marginalized people, how much education do you want to do? And I think for me it's not necessarily about education because that o oftentimes like creates this strange power balance, but like, how do I wanna invest in having the best exchanges possible? And so my investment was like, okay, maybe we can pivot because I know full well this was not your intention and I know full well that we can have a really integrated dialogue because here I am like investing interest in you and giving this time. And not everybody is deserving of that. But I'm trying to often like think about how we, yeah, like how, like what those exchanges look like because there is such a high expectation sometimes on, on marginalized folks to explain or to do that kind of work.
And how do we respond, how do we accept, and then how do we, to your point, continuously be confident or maybe not confident and navigate those dialogues and those conversations anyway. What I'm coming to this conversation with is such a sense of relief and joy. And I say that because off air, I think we both shared that it's been a pretty busy few days and weeks in different ways, but I know that every moment that I get to spend with you virtually, in text messages, in person, I feel enriched by it because of how much I love and admire you. And it is always such a joy to be in your company and this is just such a wonderful excuse to get to spend time together. So while this is of course for the benefit of the listeners, it really is just a useful rationale to get us in the same virtual room. So that's what I'm coming to this conversation with. But to frame what it is we're gonna be talking about today specifically, the whole purpose of these three episodes is about analyzing that friction between who the world says we are versus who we wanna be and how we wanna evolve. And particularly from a disability lens coming from…coming from Joyce's own notion around a disability consciousness. And you very generously shared earlier around your own journey in neurodivergence and how you are
Growing within that space. I guess one of the questions that I wanted to ask you was how does the world see you now and how has that changed?
Mm.
How does the world see me now and how has that changed? I think in many ways I have been such a beneficiary of the time in which I was born. Um, and I think a lot of that is just like one of the, the facts of what it means to be black and alive right now. Um, but in many ways I, from a very young age, I've had a lot of similar principles around listening to others, around, um, trying to make sure that like if I had any sweetness in life that it was shared. Like I often got disciplined as a child because I'd like go to school and give away my lunch and come home hungry. And my mom is like, why? Um, and I feel very fortunate to be in a time where it's, to borrow like an overused phrase, but it's kind of cool to care.
And I think I've, I found myself in community with others who are doing a lot of care work very consciously. Um, and I think we're in a moment in terms of media and and cultural landscape where there is a high premium on on that kind of arrangement or, or a way of thinking about how to live a full life. We're seeing a lot more people celebrated for their generosity. Whether that is authentic or not is a whole other podcast, but <laugh>, um, I think we're seeing that happen and it's, it's wild to be like, okay, this is, this is just like how I live. Like I don't, I don't like hoarding anything other than books. Um, and so I feel like that I hope is the impression that I'm giving the world is that I am a person who really likes to work in service and um, and is existing in a time where there's a, there is more of a focus and visibility on that kind of work.
And I think in the art space, I've, I've done it really, um, excellently and people admire that work and I appreciate it very much. Um, how has it changed? Uh, I think more and more I'm trying to make space for the amount of resiliency I've had to put on existing in the art world, existing, existing in the fashion world. My work as a curator and as a writer really sits between two of the most violent industries in the world. And as much as it is cool to care, that also means that like, I'm vulnerable all the time, <laugh>, and I don't know how to have armor. I just don't have that. Um, and so I, I think how it's changed is, is at least on a personal note, um, I've tried to also apply those, those metrics of care to myself. And I think that that's one of the things that as our relationship, me and you, Sinéad has changed.
We both like in real time as peers, as people of the same age group, um, we are learning that we have to take care of ourselves. And that that's not bad. Like I think when we first met, we were just so, like, we're lucky to be here. And now we're like, okay, how do we continue to make it sustainable to stick around? What are my actual contributions? And if these are my actual contributions, how do I make sure that I'm, I'm best set up to do them? And that it doesn't burn me out, it doesn't rob me from myself.
And I think we've gotten better at asking ourselves what's the cost and calculating whether or not it's worth it or has value to us in that moment. And I think for me at least, there has been so much pressure to be in the room and so little conscientiousness around the cost of that or the need to ensure that that invitation is shared with more than one. And then how do you make it accessible? And I think that's been a constant work in progress and I imagine will forever be. I wanted to ask you a question, but feel under no pressure to answer it. As you have become more comfortable in claiming your neuro divergence, does the world see you differently?
I'm new here, <laugh> in this land. Um, and I love neuro divergence because it's like, as public as it is private, there are many things that fall under the spectrum and I don't have to get specific into my, my my day to day, um, which is weird, like, because I feel really weird about disclosure, um, and what that means in relationship to productivity because we live in a capitalist society that has high expectations. And for better or worse, I'm a high functioning person with the things that I come across in my life and in my brain chemistry. Um, so I don't know how it shifts so much. Um, I think in many ways people who have observed me over long periods of time are like this is not a neurotypical thinker, so surprise, surprise. Um, but I also think too is like I don't, I don't know how much I care.
I mean for me it's more like the, the comfort that I am building with talking through it is how I build safety in the world around me. Like I think that that's one of the key differences between myself and, and people who have more visible ways in which the world disables them. Um, cuz I don't, I don't identify as disabled, but there are definitely ways that the world fucking disables me. Um, but I, I think, yeah, I don't know, I don't know what other people see, but I know that I'm more and more getting comfortable with asking for some of the things that I need or explaining very specifically, this is why I need this because it relates to this thing. And I don't know that I had the words for that before, um, before coming underneath this umbrella, um, in the ways that I have. That's so vague, but I hope that makes sense.
No, it's really powerful. And you know, even thinking about that question of like, how does the world see you to reflect on myself for a moment, you know, I feel like I've had this transformation over the past kind of three to four years, both in my mission purpose, but also process. I feel like I do the work differently. And it's funny because I now have this increased confidence in what I think success looks like. And I frequently am in rooms and have conversations with people who they just want me to be the good disabled person. They just want me to be the inspiring person who says interesting things or who looks great. And for me, there's often this challenge between how evolved I wanna be and the role that visibility or representation plays and how other people's perceptions of you can feel like limiting boundaries. And that's about them, not about me, but I'm just aware that people come to me with different understandings of me, different awareness of work, but also with their own needs and desires. And you then become a vehicle for whatever they're experiencing in that moment and whatever they need for you in a symbol for that. And I don't yet have language or enough tools to figure out how I navigate through some of those spaces and some of ways in which the world sees me, but it's becoming more and more evident.
I find myself in conflict with it.
Yeah, I mean that's one of the things I've admired in watching you build out tilting the lens is that
I think to the untrained eye or something, it might just seem that tilting the lens is an organization that is explicitly oriented towards the needs of folks who are living with disabilities and how to make the world more accessible. But that work can't happen without buy-in from everyone. And so I think that there, there was this really clear decision that I've watched you make around how you want to better resource the world and those goals are oriented and very specific and you have been unwavering in those. But I do think that there is something beautiful about the way that you've been able to better situate yourself in a way that doesn't allow you to be tokenized. You know, it's like you're, you're fighting fire with fire in this way where you're like providing this generous invitation to folks who think they wanna do something, who think that they can help, who think that they might be able to do that. And you're allowing that to be actionable. It's such a generous and generative process because it's one thing to be invited into the rooms and it's another one to change it. And you're building every day a better infrastructure to do that.
It's hard <laugh> and you know, I say that not just for myself, but I think for both of us, anybody doing work that is rooted in theories of change that are often in friction against the ways in which systems reiterate themselves. But that's why it's important. You said something a moment ago that it was almost a passing comment, but I think it's so important. You said something like, and I'm paraphrasing, forgive me, I'm not sure how much I care <laugh> in terms of what other people think or how people see you. And I guess a question that I have is, you know, how does that position then shape what you are ambitious to achieve? Or how does it not hinder your desire to grow and evolve and, and continuously be different versions of yourself?
I mean, I think that I can say I don't care not to say that I'm impervious to other people's opinions. Um, I say that I don't care because I'm still reconciling a lot. And I think anyone who's reading the transcript or listening to this can see <laugh> that my relationship to my neuro divergence is a complicated one. Um, for me, I think I'm so much more concerned right now with building out systems of safety for myself. Um, because I love the work that I get to do. I love it and I just wanna do more of it. Like, I want to continue to be a person in the art world to be a person who is providing invitations to maybe be a person with her own television show. I have these big goals and dreams and I know that the only way that I'll be able to achieve them is through really rigorous care.
And so for me, a matter of opinion, I don't know, that is really valuable to me against my own self regard, against being as full as I can with the people that I've built support systems with. Like if you called me and you were like, this is messed up, I care about that. Um, but what a passing person who might not know the interior of my life says, like, I, I I simply am too busy, um, at this point in my life. Um, and not like productive busy, but really just like I am re-engineering everything I've known about what it means to be powerful. And it's a, it's the growing edges are, are are really like off the charts.
Yeah. I think it is that balance, isn't it, about who do we trust to give voice to their perception of ourselves or what we're doing and, and that trust is, has to be earned or valued or in some ways, and I think, you know, definitely in therapy, I'm currently unpicking all of those desires that I have to be a people pleaser and a perfectionist and productive. I mean, Virgo, Sagittarius rising, it's all there. Libra moon, I mean [inaudible] all there. But it's hard when you have these other right entities that, you know, you are shaped by the world's perception of who or what they want you to be. But it is a continuous act that you have to undertake for yourself in order to spare yourself and to have space for yourself and to love yourself. I think,
Yeah, I mean I just hate the idea of success that makes you an enemy to yourself. It's like how can you really, really see the fruits of your labor if you can't greet yourself at the end of the day? And there's so much compromise required regardless of your station in life or the ways in which the world disables you. But that that reward of being able to sit and and, and hold yourself tenderly is so remarkably important. And I think one of the wisdoms that I'm really coming into as we embark into the depths of our thirties is just like, I don't, I don't wanna disrespect myself anymore. I don't want to, I don't, I don't, I've never, I've never wanted to not trust myself in my decisions. But especially now, um, I think as we grow in agency, it's important to make sure to, to privilege that, to pr privilege those ways in which we can better, like not just care for ourselves. Cuz I think that self-care as a practice has been completely, uh, what's the word? Just complicated. Rebranded. Rebranded. Exactly. <laugh>. Um, but yeah, I don't know. I I've just, I'll stop there.
No, and you know, being of a similar age, I've spent a lot of time recently questioning what were the behaviors or ways that previously harmed me that I need and want to stop. And you know, actually Hannah Gadsby's Netflix special on Nanette really spoke to me on this. And I don't think she had self-identified as being neuro divergent by then, but she was talking about it from a queer person's perspective about the idea of giving people permission through your own sense of humor to be the butt of the joke. And I think for me, in the earliest days of my advocacy to ease other people's discomfort with the awkwardness of either my physical presence or, you know, my existence, I would make some sort of joke or some try to be humorous in a way that would dissipate their anxiety, but would often mean that I was the protagonist in the narrative That was funny.
And I hadn't realized that I was giving people permission to repeat those things when I wasn't in the room because I was coming to this with a great sense that, you know, I knew what the mechanism was that I was operating, I was helping them be more comfortable when it just reali when it, I guess in many ways what it looked like was I was giving people permission to make me even smaller because I was activating it in every room. And I've had conversations with Alok recently as part of this podcast where Alok thinks I should be a standup comedian. And I'm like, that's a great idea. But no, and I have this really challenging relationship with humor around what we give people permission to laugh at and how and when. And for me, I do an entrusted circles now only because it was and continues to be in certain times and places a behavior that harms me because people don't have the same level of education around that humor or the same awareness of the challenges with it than I do.
Yeah, no, there's no easy solution. And I'm, I'm just thinking about this because I remember being so put off by it when we first met. Cause I was just like, there is nothing like I, like, don't get me wrong, you are funny and you are quirky and I love you, but I'm also like, these are like, I'm like, this isn't funny to me. Like I just remember being like, Sinéad, I want Sinéad to be angry. And I bring that up because <laugh>, I appreciate so much that you were like, rage is not where I'm at. Like there's frustration obviously, but I just remember having really early dialogues where you resisted rage and it's been amazing to watch the kind of fusion happen because I think there's a lot that can get lost in just like purely being pissed off is like not the equivalent of like, instead of getting angry, you got even.
But you've found, I think you've, you're finding the, the foundations of a healthy balance between those things where you're building stronger trust networks, you're building better infrastructure so that the work is done even when you're not in the room, which is fucking sexy as fuck. Um, but then also too is like not coming in guns a blazing, burning bridges because especially in fashion, you just can't move like that. Like there is, there is a level of conceit no that is necessary. There is a level of obedience that is required. It's just unfortunately the industry as we know it today, and there's an elegance through which you've navigated those complications. But yeah, I, I specifically was like, I'm not like I don't get the joke. Like I don't, I don't, like I would be up in arms over this and it's, it's been cool to watch those shifts kind of happen cuz it is easy to apply humor. It is, it is such a quick defects defense mechanism, especially if you've been bullied in any way. It's like the first thing in the toolkit. But it's amazing to hear that you have this awareness on the fact that like, it wasn't doing the work that you were hoping it might do.
No, and I thought it was helping, I thought it was helping everybody else become much more comfortable with me and, you know, 10 years on, four years on, four years on, much like what you were saying earlier, why do we care? People need to be more comfortable with me in terms of that first meeting of strangers having whatever biases or assumptions based on my physical disability. It's not my role to ease them into knowing me. And humor is not the vehicle by which, by which lends me any sort of kindness to do that.
Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um,
We're all a work in progress.
We're all a work in progress. We're all a work in progress. And also, yeah, it's like finding the remedy, the cure, the heal is like such an ableist concept in general. <laugh>. Like, you don't have to fix everybody.
I'm real good at it though. I know what they need. I don't,
No, but that's what I was saying about like, I, I think I was saying this here, um, but when I think about language and how we remedy it is this investment, right? And so it's like if you wanna con like Conti, if you continue dialogue with this person that you meet and you sense discomfort or if there's a learning curve that they have, then that level of investment is like a choice that you get to make. And it doesn't have to be through any vehicle outside of what fits the two of you now that you've become the beginnings of a relationship. But if not that, like it's just a stranger. You're passing on public transit, you're just like peace. You know, you go on about the rest of your day, but you don't have to. And I, and I'm speaking to myself too and to whomever is encountering this conversation is like you, there's so many things that we have to do and I don't think that making ourselves p palatable has to be the first one. And I think that that's what happens in interactions. Yeah.
And it's also that moment in terms of, you know, what you were thinking about, am I gonna invest time here in the education? And I almost think of it as this kind of rollercoaster. Now I share this with very little experience of roller coasters, thankfully due to height restrictions. That was a terrible joke. But you're a friend. We'll get it. Um, where you can kind of feel it coming. See, see <laugh>, that was a classic example. That was a, that was a 2019 Sinéad. You're welcome. But you can see the, the arc coming and you know, you have it in all of these moments. Somebody in a room asks a brilliant question that is three and a half minutes long and then they get to it and then they're like, so I disagree with the word disabled and I really like differently abled. And you're like, everybody's entitled to their opinions.
Everybody's entitled to their opinions. But I do like this idea of investment because I think it's something that like I, I'm obsessed with I think like every other like queer person with any consciousness around disability right now we're obsessed with co-dependent or interdependency over co-dependency.
Yes.
It's like the hot one, um, <laugh>
And, but it's, I think it's so challenging for non-disabled people because I think they have this barometer for disabled people to be valid, that they have to be independent, whether it's in living, whether it's in education, whether it's in work. And that is how they prove their validity to exist as a non, as a disabled person. But then no non-disabled person is held to that same standard. They get to be interdependent. You know, we need greater ambition around interdependence and even language case studies, examples, people being in community and in care with one another. That's where we have to reach and policy is just not enough.
<affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative>. And it's powerful. I mean I think it's just so powerful when those networks are well resourced in investment in each other. And that's always the thing that I think about. I'm like, wow, you just really missed out on such an incredible companionship because of your own resistance. Or like, and I think it would be okay to talk about this, but I talk to my friend Jes Chung all the time because we built out this like really beautiful bond instead of friends who are very invested in a care network together. And when Jes meets new people, Jes has is autistic and people are always like, what can I do to accommodate Jes? And I'm like, I don't know a person who is more prepared day-to-day than Jes Chung. Like Jes has a legitimate go bag with sensory tools like conversation card. Like Jes is such an incredibly thoughtful person in terms of preparation for what they need in the day.
And I'm like, I don't even move like that. Like I don't have the same neuro divergence, you know? And I think that there's these things where it's like, there's such a strange premium on what the like able-bodied world can bring to communities of disability. I'm like, y'all have no idea the amount of coordination required because instead of taking care of these systems, you are worried about like being pedantic to this disabled person who already is like building out like 92 steps to, to do one to two, you know? Um, and so yeah, so I, I often am just like, oh man, my pity actually lies in the people who don't get the access to folks who are living in worlds that are not accessible. It's like, it's a profound in inte like, and profound intelligence of all the things that I learn all the time. Like access literally brings me to tears. And not in some weird like, oh my God, you're so inspirational. But because I love systems, I'm like wow, there is a system of support possible here that is the greatest romance and it makes me cry.
Well we were talking about this earlier because you were like, how do you manage airports? I was like, well I check my bag, I sit in seat 2c because it gives me access to the bathroom without climbing in over anybody. It ensures that I get fed and have a first choice in food and ensures I don't have to put my bag up. Disabled people have these systems. It's like when people are always surprised that I travel with a clothes steamer and I'm like, well how do you think I'm reaching the ironing board in a hotel room? Like I figure it out. I'm not waiting for somebody to rescue me. These are the things we do.
But <laugh>, how do you
Live like that? How do you live like that? I'm just like, wow. Like I am there two hours before, I know the staff by name. I mean it is like a VIP service without the VIP. Like there is, there is no space for spontaneity or unpreparedness. You have to be ready because the world is not. So you have to have these things with you. But if we were to look to the future, whether that's in three days, six months, two years,
How do we get to that point of system change? Because at the moment there is some of that happening, but it is really relying on individuals themselves to be equipped and organized and have the resources, confidence or, you know, moments when spoons are low to rest, recover, to go up against those systems every day for marginal change or for survival. So does it require a reframing or a rebuilding? How do we get there? And I don't think you and I have all of the answers to frame this, so I'm not looking to you for any one thesis or roadmap in how we do this, but I guess, do you have any sense of what it could look like?
It's such a sticky one. It's so weird too because we are now also talking post Super Bowl.
Yes, yes.
And watching the interpreter blow up on social media, just another one of those boom moments where everybody's like, oh my God, I should learn ASL. You know? And so I think
My, but nobody questions why it's not on screen in the main
Talk about it. Why is it not on the main screen? Also, why did they make it like I watched the, the simulcast, um, cuz I was on my way actually to a fashion show and I, I just happened to stumble across it and be able to watch her do this beautiful interpretation of Rihanna's catalogue. Um, but then I was like, I don't know, understand why this is presented. Like, like there were so many things that were just a little bit wrong. But what I did love outside of that is that it started with Christine Sun Kim, who yes, we love and adore and then we love it has become all of these other iterations to now where they had, you know, a First Nations person signing in their language. They had someone as famous as the actor from CODA and then they have this young black girl from Philly at a fucking Eagles game.
And, and so for me, I think it's, it's maybe about reframing and I've been thinking a lot about questions of authenticity, um, because I think that there's a, a real value, especially in brand work right now around like authenticity and like, oh my God, you're so authentic <laugh>. And I don't think that that means anything. I think it is actually about specificity. So if you have a room and you bring a bunch of people of shared experience together, the conversation is gonna be more rich because you're not, you know, you know, like there's, there's more shared experience and the conversation in and of itself becomes more authentic. And so I think to answer your question, one of the things that I'm maybe hopeful about is this work of reframing towards a more authentic and full and rich kind of world in which we are continuing to do this, this liberatory work around access. If that makes sense.
I think the notion of specificity is so important because I think one of the challenges that we continuously face when non-disabled people in particular have great intentions around accessibility is this notion of like fully accessible. And I'm like, to whom? For what?
<laugh>
Based on the ADA, the WCAG, um, a neurodivergent person, a little person. Like, because sometimes also access is in conflict. What works for somebody who is autistic might be in conflict with somebody who is blind or low vision. So what is it you mean? And I think this specificity is both going to be the challenge, but where we get really transformative outputs. And that specificity also has to be resourced with people and with money. Cuz that specificity requires four interpreters because you need two deaf interpreters, two hearing interpreters for example. That specificity requires that access might be conflicting for three different types of people, but you have to provide it anyway and should. And I think that specificity is going to be only possible by having people with that lived experience in the room and not just as consultants. And I say that as a consultant, but in senior leadership positions where decisions are made, power is brokered and budgets are attributed. I mean I think that's a pretty good point to end on <laugh> Specificity.
Specificity. And I think before, like one other thing I just wanna add too is, and I think we've had this conversation and I want it to be on the record here too, is just we have to make peace with the fact that everything like this idea of like total, total accessibility is just not the goal. Like for me, the goal is in understanding that at any given point, something might not work for someone else. And we have to make peace with that disruption. We have to, I mean I think that that's one of the biggest thing things about living in a world that disables all of us in its own respective ways is it's just like there is difficulty. It was never going to be easy. Equity was never going to be, equality is never going to be easy and we have to make peace with that. Um, as we're doing this work of reframing, um, and it is, it is disruptive but like, ooh, it's so worth it, it's so, so worth it. Um, and so with that I say thank you Sinéad for keeping my life complicated. It is really like an honor to be in the care and investment of these complications, of this education. Um, you inspire me very deeply and I'm just excited we get to keep having these conversations. So thank you.
Me too. And the last note that I wanted to say, cuz just something you said there kind of gave me a thought,
What do non-disabled people do when that moment of friction happens? When something goes wrong, when something doesn't work often there is this kind of muscle memory of doing nothing <laugh>, because there is this fear, there is this unknown and actually what are the behaviors that we need people to model and practice that when something does go wrong or there is this moment of, of friction between an individual and the environment, what can we do? And the first question is undoubtedly asking the person who is experiencing the friction. Whether it is what is you need or whatever it might be. Not necessarily putting all of the labor on them, but I think we need to move from this place of it didn't work, we're done. Like what is the next step? Even if the action is small, we all have to be accountable for this work while never reaching fully accessible. I don't believe it exists. I think I need a t-shirt or a hat that's like fully accessible. Question mark. <laugh>. Kimberly, thank you. You said some very kind things there, but honestly you have changed me in ways that you will never know and I'm so, so grateful for it. And I hope this year is an opportunity where we get to spend so much time together
And someone put us on a trip. <laugh>, if you're out there
Testing, you're listening,
Testing, please seat me in 2 B <laugh>.
We're not sitting second row at a fashion show, babes. Just no,
No, no. I mean on the plane's not accessible on a plane.
<laugh>, I got that.
No front row period. Okay. I'm talking about on that plane. Um, but yes, thank you.
Thank you.
Okay, I'm stopping.