00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:53,420 [Bill]
[upbeat music] Welcome to our continuing conversation around our wild and changing world, a little endeavor we call the Wild Idea Podcast. I am one of your co-hosts, Bill Hodges, and along with my friend Anders Reynolds, we have been bringing you this exploration of the intersection of our own human nature and wild nature. Today's episode is a conversation we had as part of the National Wilderness Skills Institute, which is a national training platform that brought stewards together from all over the country virtually. And we got to have a really dynamic conversation with Meryl Harrill, with Friends of the Forest Service, and somebody that Anders and I have known for a long time, and with Lisa Ronald from American Rivers and the National Wild and Scenic Rivers Coalition. Uh, we hope you enjoy that. But right off the top here, Anders, we have a really special guest to join us today. 

00:00:53,420 --> 00:00:57,760 [Anders]
Oh, hi, Bill. And, oh, hi, Ashley. 

00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:03,220 [Ashley]
Wow, I feel really special to get that intro and to be on this side of this conversation to see you all doing this. 

00:01:03,220 --> 00:01:24,340 [Bill]
Well, Ashley, we're excited to have you join us. We are joined by Ashley Arnold, one of our own, a part of the Wild Idea Media team, and host of the brand new podcast, Raising Wild. Ashley, I'm just so excited that you have brought this idea to our team and are bringing this to life. Tell us what Raising Wild is gonna be all about and where the idea came from. 

00:01:24,340 --> 00:03:00,179 [Ashley]
Raising Wild is a podcast. It's about raising kids, but it's also about raising ourselves. I say a little more feral on purpose because it's about having more access and more time in nature, and the importance that nature has on our ability to be resilient, capable, critical thinking humans overall that can respond and thrive in a world that is becoming increasingly more digital, increasingly more artificial, and far more indoors than we were ever intended to be. There are numerous studies too about the importance of being in nature. I mean, a lot of us know the studies about increase in wellbeing with time outside and a decrease in anxiety and depression. But there are also studies that show the more time we have outside, the higher our critical thinking and creative problem-solving is, and just our cognition improves overall. And so when we think about what we're giving our kids and what we're giving ourselves on a daily basis to be high-performing humans, it's, it's a no-brainer that outside is really important, and so we really need to think about shifting that. And as a parent myself and someone who works remotely and is constantly bombarded with, like, the digital world, I really realized that as a storyteller, what I could do is to kind of uncover this and start asking questions from leaders, from writers, from other parents, from athletes, and just a, a huge range of people who cite the outdoors as being important for them, or who have just had a lot of time outdoors and we can see how it's influenced their work. 

00:03:00,180 --> 00:03:41,580 [Anders]
Ashley, I'll tell you anecdotally, the number one question I get from friends or colleagues or even strangers who listen to the podcast is, "Could you please do an episode on whether or not people are worried that with more and more people, especially kids, being digitally immersed everywhere they go, digitally ori- oriented everywhere they go, and how that is impacting people's connection to wilderness and to nature?" And I'm so pleased that I'll g- to go back to these people and say, "Not only are we doing an episode on this, we're doing a whole series on this." And I know we're in really good hands with you as the host, but maybe you could just tell us a few of the guests you have lined up. 

00:03:41,580 --> 00:04:32,300 [Ashley]
I'm really excited about the first episode because this guest is very influential in the whole idea, and that is Richard Louv, who many of you may know is the author of Last Child in the Woods, and he has a new book coming out called Noticing. We also have, um, coming up Lisa Raleigh in an early episode, who is the executive director of Riverlink. It's an organization in Asheville, North Carolina. Mike Foote, who is a professional trail runner actually here in Missoula. We're also gonna include in an early episode my good friend Blair Speed, who is a photographer, and, um, we grew up with a lot of access to [chuckles] the outside with without a lot of supervision, and that'll be a great way to connect back to that. Um, also in an early episode, Genevieve King, who is, um, the founder and creator of an outdoor-based curriculum for kids. 

00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:40,110 [Ashley]
Finally, um, Jessica Turner, the head of the Outdoor Recreation Roundtable, will be coming out in an early episode, so really excited about that. 

00:04:40,110 --> 00:04:42,120 [Anders]
That's a killer lineup. 

00:04:42,120 --> 00:05:25,280 [Bill]
So that's Raising Wild, a brand new podcast from Wild Idea Media. You can find the trailer already out now, give you a chance to subscribe in your podcast player of choice to Raising Wild. Ashley, we're super excited to have you on the team, and now we're super excited to have you hosting this wonderful new project. Today we talk about the future of stewarding our wild rivers, our wild places, with two of the leaders from that world, Meryl Harrill and Lisa Ronald, as part of the National Wilderness Skills Institute. Before we get into the really big, meaty topics, I'd, I'd love to hear a little bit about what first drew you into stewardship work. What was the moment or the place that made you think that this is what I want to spend my career on? And, and Meryl, how about if we start with you? 

00:05:25,280 --> 00:06:07,820 [Speaker 3]
One of the things that I, I always come back to is an experience I had when I was 15 on the Bridger-Teton National Forest, and kinda first connecting that these places that are so amazing and beautiful, um, and so important for communities and for our wellbeing have stewards, um, and that, uh, there are agencies, there are partners, there are volunteers, um, there are leaders who, and, and professions, [chuckles] um, for stewardship of these amazing places. Uh, and it was really kinda that moment that sparked my interest in, um, helping take care of these places and, and, um, all of the professional roles I've had since then. 

00:06:07,820 --> 00:06:18,900 [Bill]
And you've been such a, a- an amazing leader at, like, from so many different angles, so thanks for all that you've brought to the- Really the broader community. Lisa, how about, uh, how about your origin story? 

00:06:18,900 --> 00:08:06,180 [Speaker 4]
You know, it's hard to pick just one, Bill. [laughs] I have so many moments, and I'm sure that, that statement resonates with a lot of other folks here. You know, certainly I have the same connections that Meryl has. As, as a child, you know, growing up in a family that did a lot of backpacking and a lot of leadership from my, my father, and he's a big figure in my life and, and the reason that I am in an environmental career. Um, however, I think my, my sort of segue into rivers is much more recent in my world. Um, you know, I know many of you from working, uh, for Wilderness Connect for ab- almost 20 years. And so I lived in the wilderness world for a very long time, and, um, after the 50th anniversary and sort of all of the wonderful things and all of the light that was shed on wilderness and wilderness values that year, um, I had a colleague who took me on a river trip, and I really realized that this was an incredible way for me to see landscapes I might not otherwise really be able to get to easily, um, or that I might really not see in another way. And so my connection with water really started about 12 years ago, and I became a white water paddler, um, at the age of 37. So, um, that, you know, an old dog can new... can learn new tricks. I am, um, a perfect example of that. And so since then, not only has that become a personal passion of mine, you can sort of see me in the background here in one of my, um, upright moments, um, in, in my kayak. Um, and, you know, really was, I think, the reason I ultimately decided to transition my career into working in river protection and working in wild and scenic rivers and, and ultimately, um, helping to found the Wild and Scenic Rivers Coalition about seven or eight years ago following the 50th anniversary of the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act, um, and then moving into, uh, an advocacy role as well with American Rivers. 

00:08:06,180 --> 00:08:30,509 [Bill]
You know, both of you in your, in your roles, uh, you know, Meryl, you were at, at the department as, you know, deputy undersecretary. You, you stepped into a role leading SAWS. Lisa, as you just mentioned, Wilderness Connect to American Rivers. You both had front row seats to what people-powered stewardship actually looks like. What's something you've witnessed, be it an individual effort or a special volunteer crew or, or community, 

00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:38,220 [Bill]
finding inspiration that generally moved you or gave you, like, real hope for the future of stewarding these places? 

00:08:38,220 --> 00:10:13,660 [Speaker 4]
You know, I just mentioned the 50th anniversary of the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act, and coming from the wilderness world, I sort of walked into the rivers world and thought that, like, everybody collaborated and cooperated like wilderness people do. Um, and they don't. [laughs] And so it was a realization to me that, that the, the Wild and Scenic Rivers Coalition and the same sort of c- you know, collaborative, you know, coalition-building spirit, um, didn't really exist, um, in the rivers movement prior to 2017, 2018. And, um, so I have been part of the formation of that and really seeing... and, and looking to the wilderness community as an incredible model, um, for a lot of the collaborative tools, technology tools, just ways of supporting the stewardship community that the wilderness community's already built. You know, we have relied a lot on that. Um, but it has been really cool to watch very independent river people come together and really realize the power of togetherness. And I think just in the last five years, um, the coalition has been doing an annual lobby week in which we not only lobby for new designations and new r- river protections, but we lobby and meet with agency leaders to try and support and, and again, just talk about, again and again, the need to steward the existing designated places and the funding necessary to, um, ensure that our, our agency folks are well-supported. Um, and so through that, I think we have seen really the power of, of, of that groundswell and then taking that groundswell to DC and, and, and, and, um, using those examples to, to be convincing, um, to our leadership. 

00:10:13,660 --> 00:11:30,330 [Speaker 3]
That's great. Now then I'll maybe share, um, my memory of the ribbon cutting of the new trail access at Old Fort. Um, I think that's such a great example, and, and a number of folks in this Zoom room, um, participated in that, of coming together, uh, with partners, community leaders, um, forest service leaders to, uh, find a solution for, uh, a community that had not had access to direct access on trails to the national forest, um, and where the district had a lot of trails, but, uh, were in need of stewardship. Um, and so the group that came together, including in the pandemic, to find solutions, to find resources, to find ways to steward the existing trails and make sure they are safe and accessible and well-maintained, and also to open new paths and opportunities that would enhance community well-being, economic opportunity, um, and the ability to, um, access wild places, um, is such a great example. Um, and I know that there's been a lot of work as well post-Helene to, um, 

00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:49,900 [Speaker 3]
rebuild from any damage that occurred and, and continue to deepen and strengthen those, those shared relationships and, and collaborative work. So I think that was such a, a, an inspiring example. Um, Lisa was able to highlight some of that work last year. Uh, and so that really stands out to me. 

00:11:49,900 --> 00:12:12,640 [Bill]
So if, if we get honest about where things stand, if you had to describe the overall health of our wilderness and wild scenic river system right now, Meryl, um... and I'm, I'm talking here not about the press release version, but the real version. What would you say? What, what would you... and Meryl, again, with you, let's start. How would you describe the current health of our wild places in general? 

00:12:12,640 --> 00:14:06,028 [Speaker 3]
Well, I think there are- So many important values that our wild places hold. Um, they are key refugia. They're critical for headwaters. They're critical for solitude and for, um, places of awe. I was just, um, looking at a, a newsletter that I got, and it was reflecting on the importance of, of awe and the science of awe. Um, and I, I clicked on the journal article, and one of the quotes was, "The science of awe suggests that this emotion, which is often ineffitable- ineffable, has beneficial effects on physical and psychological health." And it looked at the impacts of what it called an awe intervention to improve psychological health and showed, um, strong and significant improvements in stress, anxiety, depression, and well-being. So I thought it- that would be a good, uh, thing to share with this group because I think we instinctively know how important that is. Um, so our wild places are, are so important for all of those reasons. They're a key habitat. Um, they're, um, key places for, for, uh, the well-being of the land and for our, our well-being. Um, they're definitely under stress. Um, there are impacts related to climate, impacts related to wildfire risk, um, and, uh, disaster, post-disaster impacts. Um, there's the important work that we need to do to make sure the capacity is there for stewardship. Um, so I think par- all of that is part of, uh, the sessions that I know are planned for NWSI over the next couple of days, of how do we collectively come together and, um, do the work that's important for stewarding these places that mean so much to all of us. 

00:14:06,028 --> 00:16:10,968 [Speaker 4]
Yeah, you know, I think, um, this question makes me think a little bit about some, um, recent research that American Rivers did to produce the National Protected Rivers Assessment, which is sort of the first, you know, and it shouldn't be the first, but it is, so, um, sort of the first comprehensive assessment of the level of protection nationwide that rivers enjoy, and this is not just wild and scenic rivers, but sort of all rivers. And I think one of the key conclusions that I drew from that research was how the landscape surrounding our rivers, um, are a pivotal way in which rivers are either protected or they are at risk. And so I, I think that mirrors what I've just seen maybe anecdotally and personally in, in sort of my role, um, you know, transitioning into, into advocacy is just in the last probably five to 10 years, I would say a lot of terrestrial-based groups are really realizing the importance of advocating around water and how important water is for prot- terrestrial protections. And so you're seeing, you know, groups like New Mexico Wilderness Alliance, you know, headline a wild and scenic river bill in Congress right now. You know, like, you're seeing that, I think that realization cement not just philosophically, but actually programmatically, um, which I think is a good sign. So I think that is a healthy sign that there is recognition of the cohesiveness of our terrestrial and aquatic landscapes. Um, but at the same time, I think we have forces, you know, that are ramping up our extractive industries and, and, and putting at risk some of these multiple-use types of landscapes that may ha- that may enjoy lesser levels of, you know, either federal, state, or, or private level protections. And so I think that's really making people think and prioritize, you know, how do we protect the most things at the highest level, um, with the longest duration? And I think that's a question that we all struggle with, whether we're looking that, at that through a terrestrial lens or whether we're looking at, at it through a water lens. 

00:16:10,968 --> 00:17:14,768 [Anders]
Lisa, Meryl, I'm so glad you guys could join us today. I'm so happy to see you. Meryl, you're a big mentor of mine. I think you know that. And Lisa, I've benefited so much from your work and your advice over the years, so thank you, thank you for being here. Lisa, I'm glad you brought up this sort of cohesive collaboration. I think we're gonna dig into that a little bit later. But first I wanted to ask you both about some specific challenges and, and Lisa, maybe we'll start with you. Um, first I wanted to talk about visitation. [laughs] Um, visitation to, to public lands in general and to wilderness and wild and scenic rivers in particular. Is that a historic high? You know, our time at home through COVID sent that through the roof. Uh, that's great news, but it also comes with complications, right, for the stewardship community. Like, more people connecting to wild places feels like a win. It is a win, but the lands and waterways are, are paying the price for that love, um, as more and more places are, are loved beyond their capacity to take the love. So I guess, Lisa, how are you holding that tension and, and maybe what does responsible stewardship look like when the pressure just won't let up? 

00:17:14,768 --> 00:18:02,792 [Speaker 4]
You know, I think that's a problem that we all are seeing right now, and I think, you know, l- as a resident of Montana, and sort of that's where, where I come from, you know, in, in, in sort of my lens in viewing this question, um, you know, is that we've seen a tremendous amount of visitation since the pandemic, and it's, it's not stopping, and it's not going to stop. And I think, you know, we're seeing that embodied, for example, in the Flathead Wild and Scenic River Comprehensive Management process. Right now we're seeing a lot of tensions in the community around how much visitation is too much, and if it's too much, then, you know, that sort of begs the question, who wins and who loses? And, you know, that's a, that's a gross simplification, and, and I think there's a lot of complexity to it. But I think one of the big things that I think is really key to 

00:18:02,792 --> 00:19:45,352 [Speaker 4]
Ensuring that when we, you know, however that tension ends up resolving, that it's resolved in a way that is equitable, um, and that is data-driven. You know, one of the things I think that we're seeing and that we're quite concerned about is, you know, an inability con- to conduct monitoring. Um, and I think the agencies are, you know, understaffed, underfunded, de-staffed, um, in our current, you know, land management, you know, world. Um, they're looking for creative solutions, and a lot of those creative solutions are happening, so that is a good thing that, you know, nonprofits are stepping up, n- launching new programs. You know, new people are doing river patrols who have never done them before. You know, like, there's a lot of creative problem-solving, um, occurring at that community level. And I think in communities where you have a really positive and cohesive relationship between your advocacy and your management community, you can have those really hard conversations and try to, um, you know, meet those needs. Um, but I think that monitoring component is really key. If we don't have, you know, robust data to undergird the decisions that we're making about, you know, where the resources might be suffering, where crowding might be occurring and when. You know, what are the demographics of folks, um, who are on the river, and how might we spread out that use over time, over space? How might we identify where some of the pinch points are, whether those are at put-ins or elsewhere? You know, I think there are some differences in pinch points regarding sort of u- user experience between river users and, and, and folks, um, seeking wilderness and a, and a more solitude-based experience. Um, but I think we need that data to really undergird those tough decisions. 

00:19:45,352 --> 00:19:46,972 [Anders]
Meryl, would you like to add anything? 

00:19:46,972 --> 00:21:08,212 [Speaker 3]
Sure. I, uh, Chief Christensen at the first NWSI, which happened during the pandemic, shared a statistic that, um, wilderness areas were seeing a 75% increase in visitation. Um, and, and you know, Lisa, you just highlighted that, that, that kind of visitation has continued. I celebrate that. I think it's so wonderful that more people are getting a chance to experience our wild places. That's how I fell in love with this space and became inspired to want to help take care of it. And so I think it's a real opportunity for us to welcome people, uh, and be part of, of how they experience welcome, um, and, um, all of the amazing things that these wild places have to offer. Um, and, you know, to Lisa's point around new, uh, wild and scenic river stewards, like, it's a great opportunity to invite others to be a part of the stewardship future. And, you know, I think, um, that's part of what WSI, NWSI help to provide is the training and skills for those of us who are boots on the ground to be able to, um, interact well and support safe, inclusive, um, and great positive experiences, and then help, um, people see the opportunities for helping to take care of these places in the long term. 

00:21:08,212 --> 00:21:58,652 [Anders]
So Lisa mentioned data, and I kinda wanna talk about that a little bit as well. Meryl, I'll start with you. Just thinking about technology and the, and the ways it has sort of reshaped who is able to show up in, in wild places and on wild rivers and where they are able to show up, you know. Um, not always in the ways that the land management agencies are, are necessarily prepared for. Um, so, eh, you know, in that view, technology is, is kind of a, a double-edged sword in this space. On one hand, you know, apps and GPS have sent people into places that they may have not been prepared to reach. Um, but on the other hand, there are tools emerging that can genuinely help managers and stewards, which is great news. Meryl, how do you see us achieving balance here, and what does a stewardship-forward use of technology look like to you? 

00:21:58,652 --> 00:22:33,402 [Speaker 3]
Yeah, I'm excited about the opportunities here 'cause I think, you know, one of the challenges is maybe distribution of people and timing of that distribution. So I think there's an opportunity for technology to help us think about how we can share, spread out where people are so there are, you know, fewer footprints [laughs] on the same space at the same time in a way that, um, can potentially impact the experience and the resource. Um, so I think there's opportunity for that. I think there's great opportunity to collaborate with technology partners, um, both on that front and also on, um, 

00:22:34,452 --> 00:23:34,612 [Speaker 3]
access that's responsible in terms of not gener- you know, generating user-created trails, um, and making sure that the information that is available on trails is accurate as to the level of difficulty that people are gonna be experiencing. There's opportunity, um, for a quick turnaround with the monitoring piece that Lisa was mentioning around identifying new hazards, um, or, uh, you know, parts of the trail that might be eroding into the stream and, and need new rock work or need trail work. Um, so there's an opportunity to really have a direct feedback loop, I think, to those of us who are a part of the stewardship community, um, to help direct, uh, work where it is most needed, um, as well as make sure that people are able to, you know, assess what they need to be prepared for when they're going out and experiencing, um, an outdoor, you know, and, uh, having an outdoor adventure. Um, 

00:23:35,652 --> 00:23:44,332 [Speaker 3]
so I think there's a lot of, a lot of different opportunities that we can be excited about with technology and, and potentially with collaborating with technology partners. 

00:23:44,332 --> 00:23:45,932 [Anders]
Lisa, do you have any thoughts there? 

00:23:45,932 --> 00:25:12,328 [Speaker 4]
Yeah, I'll just... I'll add to, to that, Meryl. I agree with, uh, all of the points that you brought up. And I, and I think from a water perspective, you know, there's a lot of great things about technology, and I think, you know, being on the water, you know, really requires a lot of preparedness. You know, you have to make good decisions beforehand about whether the water levels are right for you, whether you have the skills to navigate them. And, you know, we have, we are blessed in this country to have a whole entire country full of USGS gauges. And if you've ever paddled not in the US, you realize how important that is. Um- You know, that you can look and see what your levels are. Um, we have great partners like American Whitewater that manage, you know, databases of hazards and, you know, w- using technology to allow paddlers to communicate with one another to identify new hazards and where they are, um, so that people can paddle safely. So I think technology from a river perspective is really awesome and very needed, I think, in the planning stages, you know, to make those really good decisions about matching, you know, place with skill, with, um, you know, with c- with water conditions, um, and, and, and water levels. Um, so, um, I think there's, you know, just great potential to keep what we have and to build those networks, um, so that we can trade information safely, um, among the paddling community about hazards, how to navigate those safely. 

00:25:12,328 --> 00:25:36,448 [Bill]
You know, technology is, is one issue, but there are a number of issues that create real friction inside the wilderness community itself. You know, fixed anchors and climbing areas for one. Uh, let's talk about a real world one there. Are debates about, you know, the need for ecological intervention to save a species, and that might require active forest management in the name of forest health, uh, for one forest or another. 

00:25:37,488 --> 00:25:48,108 [Bill]
How do you both think, and Meryl, I'll start with you, how do you think about how we navigate those wedge issues without losing people who might be on either side of those sort of debates? 

00:25:48,108 --> 00:26:12,918 [Speaker 3]
Yeah. I think it's essential that we really genuinely listen to each other's perspectives and values and interests, and really work to find common ground. I think there's so much more that we can agree on, um, when we actually sit down a- and understand what's at stake and what is needed, um, and why, and, uh, what 

00:26:13,988 --> 00:26:20,808 [Speaker 3]
is behind those interests and values, and then, and work to find solutions that, um, reflect that common ground. 

00:26:20,808 --> 00:26:27,828 [Bill]
Lisa, you probably saw some of that debate, you know, managing Wilderness Connect. Um, what are your thoughts on that? 

00:26:27,828 --> 00:27:49,368 [Speaker 4]
Sure. You know, I think, I think it... Where this shows up in the water world, I'm just trying to think of an analog here, and I think our analog, you know, to something like fixed anchors, you know, in, in the water world is something like fish barriers, right? Which you're sort of pitting do we create a barrier for a species versus do we maintain free flow, right? There's, like, there's a, there's a choice point there. And I, and I think, um, you know, Meryl, you're right about there being a lot of common ground, and I think, you know, some recent research I've just done up in the Flathead looking at sort of a nexus of, you know, timber harvest and river protection, sort of two seemingly non-compatible forces, has really revealed that there's a lot more compatibility. There's the, you know, the, the range of gray in the middle is a lot bigger than we might think it is. Um, so I think that's, that's right. And I think that a lot of these situations you really have to make a choice, and it's gonna be different in each situation. You know? That, that there's no blanket solution to some of these, um, tensions. Some of them are very place specific, that in one case you might say no, free flow is more important, and in another case you might say that a fish barrier is warranted, right? And neither one of those is a right or a wrong answer. Um, I think they're very context-dependent, and in those really nuanced situations we really have to take into account that local input and those local factors. 

00:27:49,368 --> 00:28:25,808 [Speaker 3]
I agree with that. I think being able to really ground into the community and, you know, I think about, for example, on the fixed anchors case, you know, that's a longtime historic use and, um, where you've got anchors, um, and a, and a community, and, you know, you're considering what does safe access look like and safe use, and what are the ramifications? I think that's, that's a, a, an example of what Lisa was highlighting of really grounding into that local conversation an- and understanding, um, what the different interests and perspectives are, and how you can come up with a solution that makes sense. 

00:28:25,808 --> 00:28:30,128 [Bill]
More of the conversation after a word from those who support Wild Ideas. 

00:28:30,128 --> 00:28:33,788 [Ashley]
I'm Olivia from Reno, Nevada, and you're listening to The Wild Idea. 

00:28:33,788 --> 00:28:46,588 [Anders]
You guys are really focusing on common ground and community and cohesiveness, and it's giving me really warm and fuzzy feelings. I, I appreciate that, and so I'm gonna lean into that spirit and ask you a related question. So, 

00:28:47,688 --> 00:29:42,967 [Anders]
uh, the, uh, the four of us talking right now have all been working in this community long enough, I think, that we've seen something interesting happen from time to time, and I think it's happening now. And, and that thing is seeing community form where it wasn't before, often in, in response to an existential threat or a big threat. Um, those, those threats are, are scary, but they're also galvanizing, right? And, and movement changing, and can lead to new ways of thinking about our work and the ways we partner with allies, both traditional allies and non-traditional ones. Um, I'm curious what partnership models or collaborations are giving you genuine optimism right now? You know, I'm thinking here of ideas or systems that protect wilderness or wild scenic rivers in a, in a way that simply wouldn't have been possible 10 or 15 years ago. And, and Lisa, I'll start with you, just because you were sort of touching on this earlier. 

00:29:42,968 --> 00:32:24,200 [Speaker 4]
Yeah. You know, and I think, um, just that this, this, this concept, um, reminds me of a, a book I read recently called The Comfort Crisis, and it's all about, like, how being uncomfortable is actually, like, a place of tremendous growth, and that, like, as a hu- as a human race we've gotten so used to being comfortable, that being uncomfortable is we wanna get out of it as soon as possible. And so I think just recognizing and just being in that space of discomfort right now is, is important, and it builds resilience. And so we are building resilience. We're, you know, we're doing something hard. We're building some character, right? That's what we're doing right now, we're building character, um, as, as a movement. Um, so I think the, the couple of examples that I will share from the, the wilderness community, um- You know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna call out, um, Florida. Um, so I have been working with, um, a brilliant, uh, woman, um, in Florida through my work with the Wild and Scenic Rivers Coalition. Um, she has almost single-handedly brought a bill to Congress to protect the Myakka River in Florida. She has built tremendously powerful relationships with, um, s- with staffers, uh, with congressional staffers. She's taken them on the river, put them on muck boots, you know, and then they have brought, you know, the congressional leaders to her, and she has become this incredible force for collaborative, very grassroots conservation for one river. Um, and so I think seeing that process and, and really, you know, sort, sort of being, being drawn into her orb, you know, has made me realize a couple things. I think, one, you know, don't underestimate the power of a really gravitating individual, right? Like, we can all change the world, and that is very true. Um, and I'm watching that happen, right? And I think, you know, secondly is that this model of c- you know, community-driven conservation that has the support of, you know, local elected officials, whether those are your, you know, your townships or your, um, county commissioners, you know, that has a, a really broad base of support that crosses both sides of the aisle. Those are the conservation bills that we're seeing advance in Congress right now. Um, we're see- the c- the campaigns that, you know, are really realizing that, you know, there... We need to have, we need to have, we need to have balance, right? You know, creative conservation that marries together, you know, maybe trail work and trail building f- for non- for motorized groups, along with other types of conservation for, you know, a very, o- you know, watershed wide conservation effort, something like that. So I think we're all learning, and, um, 

00:32:25,580 --> 00:32:45,000 [Speaker 4]
we're all learning in this space of discomfort. [laughs] Um, and it's making us do things differently, forge different partnerships with people maybe we haven't worked closely with before, and those are all very good things, and I think they speak well to our ability to be resilient as a conservation movement in a tough time. Um, and we just need to stay the course. 

00:32:45,000 --> 00:34:40,320 [Speaker 3]
I agree with all of that, and I think NWSI is a great example of adaptation and resilience because it grew out of not being able to have in-person training. Um, and it was a new way of trying to bring people together to s- you know, scale capacity and skills and, um, be able to show up for and with each other. And, you know, that original concept of the Wilderness Skills Institute to create shared learning and capacity building and deepen relationships has now grown to include NWSI, um, the Northern Rockies WSI, the Pacific Northwest WSI, the Ranger Academy. Um, so y- you know, I think the, the space of, of challenge and discomfort can really open and expand new opportunities and growth, um, in really powerful ways. Um, and I, I also really deeply agree with the, um, really listening to and thinking about where those, um, opportunities are at that local level, gr- growing out of common ground, growing out of collaboration. Um, that's, you know, the SAWS origin story as well. Bill, that was part of your motivation for creating SAWS. Um, and then I also recall, you know, a, a visit from a, from with you from a group in Montana that was bringing together ranchers and OHV users and conservation interests and community interests, um, around a range of issues, including wilderness stewardship. Um, so I think finding and understanding those spaces for deep engagement, um, and then building and growing from that, uh, in ways that are durable and that can gain support, um, across the political spectrum and over the long term, um, is, is really important. That's, and that's where we've seen some of our most enduring gains. 

00:34:40,320 --> 00:36:09,580 [Bill]
As we talk about discomfort and how, you know, a lot of experiences in wild places or on wild rivers, the, the, there, there's always inherently maybe some discomfort. You're cold, maybe you're hungry, maybe your, your knees are barking at you. Um, but it's often that discomfort which leads to the epic stories you tell when you get out, and you don't know if you're gonna push through it in the moment. I, I think the discomfort maybe that we're struggling with today, uh, has a lot to do about capacity. We've touched on this. We've danced around this 'cause I think it's the challenge that doesn't get enough air time. Uh, the volunteers, the nonprofits, certainly the agency staff, all of them are often stretched thin. And, and I've been in a number of conversations about making sure we're not looking at a scenario where we're replacing a federal workforce with a volunteer or partner workforce. But I always look at it as, like, the needs of wilderness and wild scenic rivers is like a rubber band, and it's always stretching and flexing. And it's how we make sure that stress never gets to the point that that rubber band breaks. That's when we start having degradation of these places. I'm curious how you guys are seeing from your chairs how thin that rubber band is getting at this moment. Uh, it clearly can give us that creative energy that comes from discomfort, but, uh, where do you think we are? And Lisa, maybe I'll start with you on this one. Where do you think we are on that capacity question and how we think about keeping that rubber band from breaking? 

00:36:09,580 --> 00:38:26,928 [Speaker 4]
I think it depends where you are [laughs] quite frankly. You know, I think there are places where the capacity deficit is so great that it's almost unmeasurable how, how much you're, you're in the hole, right? Um, I think maybe on the other end of the scale, you know, you have incredible community groups that are rising to meet the deficit, right? So as the feds pull back, the community rises up. Um, I think maybe that right now is one of your best case scenarios, and I, you know, entirely understand the argument that, you know, we definitely don't want over time to see the replacement of a trained, dedicated federal workforce. Um, so whether this is a stopgap measure, I don't know. But, you know, I think in the interest of the resource, um, you know, I think folks who are rising to meet that challenge at the community level, you know, really deserve our praise and, you know, our partnership and our trust. Um, because I think the, you know... I'm seeing, just as an example up in the Flathead, you know, the role that Flathead Rivers Alliance, um, is taking on is a much greater role i- um, this, you know, this year alone. They're doing, they're piloting a river, you know, sort of a river patrol program, um, you know, in the absence of a lot of the staffing at the federal level, and that's, you know, they're doing that in, you know, true collaborative spirit with the Forest Service. This isn't a sort of like a takeover of their responsibility. They're really trying to make this a very collaborative, um, and, you know, trusted relationship, while at the same time meeting some of that deficit. And I think because they built the groundwork for that relationship beforehand, this has been an easier process than it would be in a place where you're building those relationships from the start or from the ground up. So, you know, I think other places, you know, you have a, a, a tremendous deficit or you don't have communities that are able to, to rise up. And then, yes, you are going to see impacts, you know. I don't think there's another way, way around that. Um, and so that's kind of... You're right, when that, when that rubber band is getting really thin or getting ready to snap. So I don't think the, the capacity problem is an even distribution, um, of the problem across the country. 

00:38:26,928 --> 00:38:27,518 [Anders]
Meryl? 

00:38:27,518 --> 00:40:14,868 [Speaker 3]
Yeah, I wanna start by just affirming the importance of people and capacity. We do need capacity, so I think your question and point is really well taken. The Forest Service is down capacity in its non-fire staff in particular. Um, this is a really important moment and opportunity to connect with your friends and colleagues and just ask what they need most and what is most helpful and, um, how best to show up as a partner. Um, recognizing that partner capacity is also, uh, under strain. So that's a, that's a, um, a mutual question as well. How can, uh, collectively we support the shared capacity that's needed within the federal agencies and within our partner and stewardship community to be able to take care of these places successfully? Um, and there's also related capacity that's needed. I'm thinking about our partnership coordinators and grants and agreements, um, leads in particular on the Forest Service side to be able to open the door so that that shared capacity can be deployed effectively. Um, and there need to be resources for those boots on the ground. Um, so thinking collectively about how do we keep moving forward in a way that we can have the people and resources that are so necessary for this stewardship work, and what does that look like to, to continue to evolve into this transformational shoulder-to-shoulder relationship space, um, share the responsibility, share the work, um, and, um, really show up in ways that are, are mutually supportive. 

00:40:14,868 --> 00:41:13,808 [Speaker 4]
You know, so I guess one thing that I'm also thinking too is, you know, and I would be remiss as, you know, the, the advocate on this panel not to sort of, um, you know, say that we're in voting season, right? And I think thinking through, you know, like you get what you pay for when it comes to government. Government's not like any other... Government is the same as any other business. When you have, you know, longstanding, knowledgeable employees who stick around, you get good products and services that are worth your money, right? So it's the same model that we see applied in business. Um, and so talking to your elected officials about this, talking to your family members about this because, you know, ultimately in this country, we elect the leaders who make the decisions about the capacity for our federal managers. So we are the people, let's vote accordingly. Um, I'll leave it, I'll leave it at that so we're not straying into too, too much of a political space. Um, I know that's not the intention of this panel, but I would be remiss not to sort of double down for that since we've just had our midterm elections here in Montana. 

00:41:13,808 --> 00:41:22,128 [Anders]
Meryl, I wonder if you could just tell us what Friends of the Forest Service has its eye on right now. What's the work you're most focused on, and, and where are you hoping people will engage? 

00:41:22,128 --> 00:42:30,918 [Speaker 3]
Sure. Friends of the Forest Service is working to bring people together to build relationships and common ground for the future of the Forest Service and forest stewardship. Um, we are, um, we've had a year of convenings, um, more than 300 organizations, more than, um, 6, 700 participants who, um, are all part of a really constructive conversation about where is their common ground, where is their constructive alignment. Um, so, uh, this next year is really focused on specific areas of need and opportunity, kind of at the 10,000 foot level to really, um, find solutions, um, and, uh, advance them and, and offer them in, in support of our friends in the Forest Service and across our community and work across silos to, um, chart a path forward. So would welcome any participation, engagement, thoughts, ideas, um, uh, along those lines. Um, it's, it's meant to be really emergent from, um, those of you who are doing the work on the ground and subject matter experts and communities. Um, so welcome all and any input and participation. 

00:42:30,918 --> 00:42:55,388 [Anders]
And Lisa, I'm gonna ask you the question in the chat 'cause it's kind of a follow-up to what you were talking about, and that is what creative ways are y'all getting users to know that "loving the outdoors" in quotes is a two-way street, that receiving goodness from wilderness and rivers requires us to take care of those spaces, not simply while visiting Meaning like pack it out, but as a lifestyle thereafter, so voting, donating, volunteering, other advocacy. 

00:42:55,388 --> 00:43:49,318 [Speaker 4]
Yeah, I think, you know, that is a tough proposition these days when I think the environment is, is one of many things that people have to care about right now. And when people are short on money, short on time, um, and have sick kids, and all of the other life things that we have to deal with, um, and now when we have higher rent and gas is, n- you know, gas costs more and food costs more, um, and a lot more families are, you know, v- very really counting their pennies, um, it is hard to make the outdoors, um, as relevant perhaps as it used to be. And I think that's a battle that we have fought for a long time in the conservation movement, and it is one that it's n- it's not an answer [laughs] to the question that I have today. It's something that we're gonna continue to struggle with. That being said, I think one of the spaces where we have really seen water and rivers pull highly, 

00:43:50,608 --> 00:45:30,968 [Speaker 4]
um, and resonate well, um, I think in, you know, a lot of different arenas where people have to make choices about, um, sort of high-profile issues, is the relationship between our rivers, our forests, and our drinking water. And while that might be so intuitive to folks here, um, in this space, um, it is not a concept that I think is, is easy to explain to folks, um, who, who may be very unfamiliar or out of touch with natural spaces and the benefits that they have to human life. And so I think that is, um, a concept we have continued to inject into a variety of different dialogues, um, because it is very visceral when you think about everybody drinks water. Um, the water that comes out of your tap, at least in Montana, it starts up in the mountains. And if you don't take care of the watershed between those headwaters and your tap, then you're putting your drinking water at risk. That resonates well because it is not a river recreation issue. It is not an issue that is limited to the population of people that recreate on an- on rivers or that paddle whitewater, right? It is a ubiquitous issue that connects everybody to rivers, uh, because no matter where you live, this is still true. Um, so I think that is the way that American Rivers has largely started to, um, morph the dialogue about how we engage people in river conservation, and we start with that very visceral glass of water. 

00:45:30,968 --> 00:45:44,288 [Anders]
Relevancy is a dangerous topic. If you've ever sat around a campfire with me and Bill, you know what eventually ends up is, is, is relevancy even relevant anymore? So we could go another hour on that, but I will, I will spare anyone. Meryl, did you wanna add anything to that? 

00:45:44,288 --> 00:46:19,518 [Speaker 3]
Well, at the risk of, uh, [laughs] diving too, Anders, into it, I do think it's really important to show that connective tissue. Um, and you know, I often think about, um, our community and the agency and these lands as kind of a, in the intersection of a web of connections. And you know, these lands and the agency are at one end of the strand, and, and all the rest of us are at other ends of the strands. And we may, we may know what's at, on our strand, but we may not know what's relevant and important for, uh, those at other attachment points. And so being able to better, 

00:46:20,528 --> 00:46:42,688 [Speaker 3]
create better visibility a- along that web of connection and show the relevance and help build trust, all of that is really important for, um, long-term care, for relationships, for relational risk, um, and for relevance. So, um, I think that's a really important role that, that we as partners can help play. 

00:46:42,688 --> 00:47:11,508 [Speaker 5]
Meryl, Lisa, thank you so much. Uh, it's been just a real pleasure having you. Thank you to the planning team for the National Wilderness Skills Institute, of which I got to be a part of six years ago, so I know what a huge lift it is. So thank you all, uh, for putting this event together. Uh, if you wanna hear more conversations like this, and we will be putting this out as an episode of The Wild Idea Podcast, you can find us at thewildidea.com, or on all of your, uh, favorite podcast players of choice. Thanks everybody for letting us join you, uh, here this morning. 

00:47:11,508 --> 00:47:12,608 [Anders]
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. 

00:47:13,888 --> 00:47:47,428 [Speaker 5]
The Wild Idea is a production of Wild Idea Media and hosted by Bill Hodge and Anders Reynolds. Production and editing by Bryn Russell at PodLab. Digital support by Holly Wilkoszewski at Dipak Digital. Our theme music, Spring Hill Jack, is from Railroad Earth and was composed by John Keahan. Our executive producer and ringleader is Lara Hodge. You can find The Wild Idea wherever you listen to or download your favorite podcast. If you have a minute, please take a minute to give us a rating. And if you really like us, we hope you'll subscribe. Learn more about us at thewildidea.com.