WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.343 --> 00:00:09.288 A friend of the show, Kevin Shindell, was on a radio program called You Must Learn Radio the other day, and, uh, good stuff. 00:00:09.288 --> 00:00:11.808 So I thought it would be good with his permission. 00:00:11.808 --> 00:00:21.198 I'm adding his podcast here to artificial education or artificial intelligence, real talk, and I hope you, uh, enjoy it. 00:00:21.318 --> 00:00:23.628 Check it out and lemme know what you think. 00:00:24.757 --> 00:00:27.487 Radio Show, hashtag you Must Learn. 00:00:27.877 --> 00:00:36.517 Hashtag you Must Learn is the Liberatory Education Platform for those who seek a better understanding of all things education and enlightenment. 00:00:36.787 --> 00:00:51.607 I'm Dr. Darrel Howard, and I'm one of the members of the hashtag You Must Learn Collective here to give you an hour's worth of intellectual and practical insight from individuals in our community who seek to advance the cause of education, equity, leadership, and liberation. 00:00:52.032 --> 00:00:56.982 In the words from Sonya Sanchez's, 1975 Play Uhhuh. 00:00:57.282 --> 00:00:58.812 But how does it free us? 00:00:59.082 --> 00:01:07.602 Similarly, I'm always seeking to understand with educational and social change agents uhhuh, but how does your work advance the culture? 00:01:07.992 --> 00:01:12.582 And speaking of advancing the culture, I wanna begin by highlighting this week's black history fact. 00:01:13.332 --> 00:01:15.702 A man who can be described as a peacemaker. 00:01:16.172 --> 00:01:27.872 Dr. Ralph Johnson Bunch became the first African American to receive the Noble Peace Prize on December 10th, 1950 for the 1949 Pharmacist Agreements. 00:01:28.142 --> 00:01:28.412 Bunch. 00:01:28.412 --> 00:01:32.012 Was born on August 7th, 1904 in Detroit, Michigan. 00:01:32.372 --> 00:01:34.682 He was a diplomat in political scientist. 00:01:34.877 --> 00:01:40.487 Who is remembered internationally for his work as the chief mediator for the United Nations. 00:01:40.487 --> 00:01:50.207 During the Arab Israeli conflict in which he received the Nobel Peace Prize Bunch was also involved as a mediator in other major conflicts around the world. 00:01:50.477 --> 00:01:54.412 In 1968, he became the United Nations under Secretary General. 00:01:55.807 --> 00:02:05.167 President John F. Kennedy awarded a bunch with the Nation's highest civilian award, the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 1963 early in life. 00:02:05.407 --> 00:02:13.987 Bunch recedes his undergraduate degree from UCLA by graduating Summa CU Laude and Class Valedictorian in 1927. 00:02:14.522 --> 00:02:21.242 He earned his master's in 1928 and doctorate in 1934 from Harvard in political science. 00:02:21.512 --> 00:02:25.292 He was the first African American to receive his doctorate in political science. 00:02:25.592 --> 00:02:31.657 He later did postgraduate anthropological work at the London School of Economics and the University of Kate. 00:02:31.797 --> 00:02:32.017 Ta. 00:02:32.267 --> 00:02:33.417 Shout out UCT. 00:02:34.187 --> 00:02:47.327 Before completing his graduate degrees from Harvard Bunch, started teaching political science at Howard University, the real HU, where he served as chair of the Department of Political Science from 1928 to 1950. 00:02:47.837 --> 00:02:48.167 Bunch. 00:02:48.167 --> 00:02:53.507 Was active in civil rights and served for over 20 years on the NAACP board. 00:02:53.837 --> 00:02:57.197 He and his wife, the former Ruth Harris, had three children. 00:02:57.497 --> 00:03:01.367 Bunch, died on December 9th, 1971 in New York City. 00:03:02.647 --> 00:03:04.627 At age 68. 00:03:06.007 --> 00:03:07.627 Let me just say something about Brother Bunch. 00:03:07.627 --> 00:03:13.117 Here we're talking about a person who received some real peace prize acknowledgements. 00:03:13.117 --> 00:03:17.527 I just wanted to make sure that we are clear on how these things were earned back in the day. 00:03:17.887 --> 00:03:21.697 Um, let's give a shout out to this legend of our culture. 00:03:22.117 --> 00:03:27.817 And speaking of those legends, I have two legends on here with me tonight. 00:03:28.297 --> 00:03:29.497 I have, uh. 00:03:30.147 --> 00:03:36.867 Two friends, two comrades, two colleagues who are doing some amazing things and, um, they're joining the show. 00:03:36.867 --> 00:03:41.882 And we'll be learning a little bit about what they do in advancing the culture in our first segment. 00:03:42.982 --> 00:03:57.592 Social science educator, uh, philosophy teacher, media literacy, AI guru Ken, Kevin Shindel, will talk to us about what we need to know and consider about artificial intelligence in education. 00:03:57.592 --> 00:04:00.742 That's a big topic, y'all make sure you're paying attention for that one. 00:04:01.132 --> 00:04:09.382 And the second segment, Omar Barlow, the founder of the Salt and Light School for boys, will share his first year experiences in the new school. 00:04:09.382 --> 00:04:12.022 So I'm, I'm excited also to hear that. 00:04:13.002 --> 00:04:28.392 So WPFW listeners, I know you're excited as I am, so go ahead, take a moment and share about these incredible guests that we have coming up next, text or call a few of your friends, let them know, Hey, we got some dynamic guests on hashtag you must learn tonight. 00:04:28.392 --> 00:04:36.762 Tell 'em to put on our radio dial WPFW 89.3, or they can go online, wpfw fm.org. 00:04:37.482 --> 00:04:40.722 Tell 'em across, share across social media as well. 00:04:41.467 --> 00:04:48.217 Hashtag you Must Learn is the platform where we put folks on game to what's new and relevant in the education and equity space. 00:04:48.607 --> 00:04:50.467 As always, we wanna hear from our guests too. 00:04:50.467 --> 00:05:00.097 So call us at (202) 588-0893 or you can use the hashtag you must learn on social media, and we might read your comment or question on the air. 00:05:00.452 --> 00:05:07.232 Be sure to include at Wpfw FM and at Darrel Howard PhD in your post so you can be duly recognized. 00:05:07.562 --> 00:05:10.502 Alright folks, I told you I got a good, I got a good lineup today. 00:05:10.502 --> 00:05:17.312 So I'm excited to get started with the first guest, the one and only Kevin Shindel. 00:05:17.342 --> 00:05:17.822 Kevin Hinde. 00:05:18.302 --> 00:05:21.392 Tell my WP FW audience a little bit about who you are. 00:05:22.267 --> 00:05:22.777 Thank you, Dar. 00:05:22.777 --> 00:05:34.387 I appreciate you, uh, having me on tonight to talk about, uh, this, uh, my name's Kevin Shinde and I've been a teacher at Montgomery Blair High School for about the last 25 years, uh, 24, 25 years. 00:05:34.387 --> 00:05:40.447 So, um, I, I have to give a shout out to all my Blair High School students if I forget that they're gonna let me know tomorrow. 00:05:40.777 --> 00:05:44.197 Um, and so yeah, I've been a, uh, social studies teacher. 00:05:44.197 --> 00:05:47.377 I've taught history and government philosophy, media literacy. 00:05:48.197 --> 00:05:51.527 Um, AI impact, um, a number of courses. 00:05:51.977 --> 00:05:54.917 Um, and so yeah, that's, um, that's kind of it. 00:05:54.917 --> 00:05:57.047 I'm just, you know, excited to get into it with you tonight. 00:05:57.497 --> 00:05:58.277 Fantastic. 00:05:58.367 --> 00:06:02.567 Alright, well let, let's start, um, let's start in the past a little bit. 00:06:02.567 --> 00:06:02.657 Mm-hmm. 00:06:02.897 --> 00:06:11.357 Because I know prior to kind of like your interest in your learning and teaching and ai, I know you, you were already doing some stuff around. 00:06:12.307 --> 00:06:16.057 Looking at students' cell phone use and just media literacy. 00:06:16.057 --> 00:06:22.297 And you had a, you had a digital detox program, um, that you did with your students. 00:06:22.687 --> 00:06:30.217 So let's talk about like the nature of students' reliance on technology and the challenges that you address. 00:06:30.397 --> 00:06:32.587 Like how has that changed over the past decade? 00:06:32.587 --> 00:06:33.462 Let's start with, with that. 00:06:34.342 --> 00:06:40.342 Yeah, so I've been, um, I, I started that digital detox in, in the spring of 2012. 00:06:40.942 --> 00:06:44.872 Um, and at that point, you know, social media had been around for a little bit. 00:06:45.382 --> 00:06:58.192 Um, I, I remember vividly, you know, my first introduction to social media when one of my colleagues came in and, um, this was in the, uh, fall of 2005, probably late September, 2005. 00:06:58.402 --> 00:07:00.927 And he came in and he said, um, Hey, have you ever heard of MySpace? 00:07:01.282 --> 00:07:03.442 And I said, ah, what is MySpace? 00:07:03.532 --> 00:07:08.062 And he said, man, you need to get on this and, and we gotta figure this out. 00:07:08.062 --> 00:07:16.042 He said, three of my, uh, daughter's friends at their school just got suspended for something they posted on MySpace and he said, you should get on and, and check out. 00:07:16.042 --> 00:07:17.362 I bet your students have pages. 00:07:17.362 --> 00:07:18.087 And so I, I did that. 00:07:18.627 --> 00:07:20.097 Um, right before class. 00:07:20.577 --> 00:07:28.557 And, um, I can tell you within about 10 minutes, I just, you know, I, I was intuitively feeling this is going to go off the rails. 00:07:28.827 --> 00:07:30.387 This could get really, really bad. 00:07:30.747 --> 00:07:37.107 Um, and then it took me some years and, and, you know, I was always interested in studying it and talking about it with kids and things like that. 00:07:37.497 --> 00:07:44.097 And then one day in 2012, um, I read an article that said more than 50% of teens will wake up. 00:07:44.347 --> 00:07:48.457 Um, from, from asleep in the middle of the night to either send or receive a text message. 00:07:49.057 --> 00:07:51.247 And I went in and I read the headline to the students. 00:07:51.247 --> 00:07:52.837 I said, how many of you do this? 00:07:53.287 --> 00:07:56.382 And, um, I be damned that every hand didn't go up in the air. 00:07:57.067 --> 00:07:59.977 And at that point the digital downtime project was born. 00:08:00.007 --> 00:08:00.307 Right? 00:08:00.307 --> 00:08:07.687 And so it was kind of, we really need to dive in and take a look at the, um, at the effects of screen technologies. 00:08:07.687 --> 00:08:11.827 And, you know, I think there was probably a moral panic about it around that time. 00:08:11.872 --> 00:08:12.322 Right. 00:08:12.652 --> 00:08:19.432 Um, I think that, that a lot of people were really concerned and, and, and the idea that kids were addicted to screens. 00:08:19.792 --> 00:08:24.592 Um, and, and we didn't have all the information, but I think some of that panic was justified, right? 00:08:24.592 --> 00:08:26.272 And some of us could see it early on. 00:08:26.692 --> 00:08:36.772 Um, and even though the research, you know, over the last couple years has really started to kind of drill in to show, show the long term effects, some of us saw really early what, what was, what was down the road. 00:08:37.192 --> 00:08:39.292 Um, but as far as the nature of change. 00:08:40.117 --> 00:08:43.567 I think social media began, and it was really social media, right? 00:08:43.567 --> 00:08:45.967 It was about how kids could connect with each other. 00:08:45.967 --> 00:08:47.707 It was a lot about social connection. 00:08:48.127 --> 00:08:57.127 Um, and, and you know, one of the quotes that I, I'll never forget is, like I said, there was all this, you know, concern about the kids being addicted to the screens. 00:08:57.127 --> 00:08:59.287 The kids are spending too much time on the screens. 00:08:59.737 --> 00:09:02.227 Um, and there was a. Fantastic researcher. 00:09:02.227 --> 00:09:03.217 Her name was Dana Boyd. 00:09:03.217 --> 00:09:05.707 She's worked for Microsoft and she's done her own stuff. 00:09:05.917 --> 00:09:09.397 And she said, you know, these kids aren't addicted to their screens. 00:09:09.697 --> 00:09:11.227 They're addicted to each other. 00:09:12.187 --> 00:09:15.817 And so, you know that that put it kind of in a different light. 00:09:15.847 --> 00:09:17.287 You know, I'm looking at the three of us. 00:09:17.287 --> 00:09:18.277 We're about the same age. 00:09:18.277 --> 00:09:25.717 If you give us a lifeline to our friends 24 7 at the age of 13, 14, 15, we're gonna take that lifeline. 00:09:26.042 --> 00:09:26.462 Right. 00:09:26.762 --> 00:09:32.552 Um, you know, I remember in high school this, the person with that had the most social status was the one who got their own landline. 00:09:32.582 --> 00:09:32.822 Right. 00:09:33.512 --> 00:09:37.742 Or the 10 foot cord to wrap around three rooms or go down the hall into a room by yourself. 00:09:37.772 --> 00:09:43.262 Um, you know, we didn't have, we didn't have access to this, but if we did, we would've been using it. 00:09:43.262 --> 00:09:44.732 Just, you know, just like they were. 00:09:44.732 --> 00:09:53.312 And so the, the, the nature of the online communication then was just kind of an extension of, of their relationships in, in the physical world. 00:09:53.362 --> 00:09:53.782 Right. 00:09:54.112 --> 00:09:57.982 Um, and then I think it started to change and, and it started to change. 00:09:57.982 --> 00:10:07.312 We, I don't know whether we were, whether it was destined to change, whether it had to change, but we'll never know that because once the social media platforms. 00:10:07.897 --> 00:10:13.057 Understood that they could use AI algorithms to make money. 00:10:13.057 --> 00:10:17.707 Once they understood that they could monetize those algorithms, then they became weaponized. 00:10:17.737 --> 00:10:18.127 Right? 00:10:18.367 --> 00:10:22.117 And so then it's just how much attention can we capture? 00:10:22.477 --> 00:10:26.412 Um, and there's been a. Decided change in the last five years, right? 00:10:26.412 --> 00:10:28.152 I mean, Facebook is terrible. 00:10:28.152 --> 00:10:29.262 Now, let's be honest. 00:10:29.382 --> 00:10:35.022 Every other thing that you see is an ad. You might get a feed with five or six people of your, of your friends. 00:10:35.382 --> 00:10:38.982 Um, but it's all taken up by reels, you know, the short form videos. 00:10:39.252 --> 00:10:40.902 And so I think that's kind of where we've gone. 00:10:40.902 --> 00:10:49.092 We've gone from a time where it was really kind of about social connection, connecting with people around the country, around the world, establishing relationships. 00:10:49.392 --> 00:10:52.302 Um, but once the attention, you know, got ramped up. 00:10:52.652 --> 00:11:00.182 Now it's just all about, you know, um, trying to keep kids and, and people on as much as they can with short form videos that, you know, really out. 00:11:00.182 --> 00:11:05.372 They've had a devastating impact, you know, on, on students academically, socially, cognitively. 00:11:05.372 --> 00:11:08.702 It's, it's, you know, so there's been a big change over the last 10 years, I think. 00:11:09.112 --> 00:11:09.502 Yeah. 00:11:09.922 --> 00:11:15.862 And, and, and the attention piece is, is what stood out to me and what you just said, um, attention's like the new currency. 00:11:15.862 --> 00:11:18.112 Like that's, that's the thing folks want. 00:11:18.502 --> 00:11:26.002 Um, and, and I often think about it myself, like how am I using the, the, the focus and attention that I have and what am I using it for? 00:11:26.362 --> 00:11:32.842 Um, so it's impacting adults just as it is impacting, impacting our students. 00:11:33.142 --> 00:11:33.232 Mm-hmm. 00:11:33.472 --> 00:11:36.322 Um, but, but, but to, to the, to the. 00:11:37.672 --> 00:11:45.742 To the fact that you're talking about adults and students like you, you described this as like an, an ecosystem. 00:11:45.802 --> 00:11:45.892 Mm-hmm. 00:11:46.092 --> 00:11:48.382 It's not just a tool, like it's an ecosystem. 00:11:48.622 --> 00:11:51.442 Can you elaborate a little bit more on what you mean by that? 00:11:51.562 --> 00:11:59.002 And then particularly with students, like what are the academic and non-academic changes you foresee in the ade, uh, the, the ecosystem? 00:11:59.302 --> 00:11:59.662 Mm-hmm. 00:11:59.902 --> 00:12:01.207 In, on the, on the student experience. 00:12:01.942 --> 00:12:02.212 Right. 00:12:02.212 --> 00:12:05.062 So, I mean, you know, now here comes ai, right? 00:12:05.122 --> 00:12:08.182 Um, ai, um, in a different format, right? 00:12:08.182 --> 00:12:13.522 That we, we've already, kids have already been exposed to AI and, and they've been abused by AI for 10 years, right? 00:12:13.522 --> 00:12:17.932 But now we're going to invite AI into our classrooms, uh, more formally. 00:12:18.472 --> 00:12:22.252 And I think that the, the metaphors matter, man. 00:12:22.252 --> 00:12:23.542 The metaphors matter a lot. 00:12:23.572 --> 00:12:26.872 And, and we, we want to say that AI is a tool, right? 00:12:27.052 --> 00:12:29.602 So, Darryl, you tell me when I say tool, what do you think of? 00:12:29.812 --> 00:12:30.622 What's the first tool? 00:12:31.237 --> 00:12:34.992 Something that you can use to improve something, but you can, you control it. 00:12:35.932 --> 00:12:36.292 Okay. 00:12:36.292 --> 00:12:36.982 You control it. 00:12:37.072 --> 00:12:38.212 Um, mm-hmm. 00:12:38.452 --> 00:12:41.272 So usually when you say tool, people say a hammer, right? 00:12:41.302 --> 00:12:42.112 A screwdriver. 00:12:42.472 --> 00:12:46.552 Um, and, and AI is not a hammer, right? 00:12:46.612 --> 00:12:47.392 Um mm-hmm. 00:12:47.632 --> 00:12:53.062 So the idea that AI is not a tool and it's more of an ecosystem, it's related to the work of Neil Postman. 00:12:53.452 --> 00:12:58.282 Um, Neil Postman was an old cultural critic and media theorist, and author and professor. 00:12:58.582 --> 00:13:01.372 Um, I would urge everybody to dive into some Neil Postman. 00:13:01.732 --> 00:13:11.902 Um, he wrote a book in 1992 called technoly, and I'm, I'm convinced if, if, if everybody in America read Technoly, we would solve ha at least half of our technological issues. 00:13:12.322 --> 00:13:15.142 Um, but what Neil Postman said was that, you know. 00:13:15.757 --> 00:13:18.487 Technology is not additive or subtractive. 00:13:18.847 --> 00:13:19.897 It's ecological. 00:13:19.987 --> 00:13:22.297 It changes the entire environment. 00:13:22.297 --> 00:13:25.237 It doesn't just add to what we can do and subtract other things. 00:13:25.657 --> 00:13:29.767 It fundamentally alters the environment and we've seen this time and time and time again. 00:13:29.977 --> 00:13:31.477 Tools don't do that, right? 00:13:31.477 --> 00:13:33.757 When, when you think of a tool, you think of a hammer. 00:13:33.757 --> 00:13:35.977 A hammer has a limited usage, right? 00:13:36.067 --> 00:13:37.597 It can be used for good or bad. 00:13:37.597 --> 00:13:42.307 Sure, but there's nobody programming that hammer so that you sit there and look at it all day long. 00:13:42.687 --> 00:13:52.947 There's nobody telling that you can use this hammer to write an essay and you could use this hammer to order your groceries and you can use this hammer to buy your concert tickets and you can use this hammer to improve your productivity. 00:13:52.947 --> 00:13:53.157 Right. 00:13:53.367 --> 00:13:55.647 So tools are very limited. 00:13:55.647 --> 00:13:55.947 Yep. 00:13:56.007 --> 00:13:59.007 We, we do have multipurpose tools and that's great. 00:13:59.327 --> 00:14:01.367 But AI is not a tool. 00:14:01.427 --> 00:14:12.077 AI is an entire ecosystem, um, and is being built as such so that, um, once you are in that ecosystem, it impacts every aspect of that ecosystem. 00:14:12.077 --> 00:14:16.007 And so when you're talking about, you know, how has this played out in, in classrooms? 00:14:16.427 --> 00:14:23.117 You know, when I started at Blair in, in the fall of 2002, a classroom of 30 students had one screen. 00:14:23.357 --> 00:14:24.677 It was the teacher's desktop. 00:14:25.132 --> 00:14:25.552 Right. 00:14:26.392 --> 00:14:32.062 You fast forward 20 years and now a classroom has more than two screens per person. 00:14:32.242 --> 00:14:33.652 Everybody's got a Chromebook. 00:14:34.312 --> 00:14:35.662 I still have my laptop. 00:14:35.752 --> 00:14:40.732 Everybody's got a phone and there's a big box light, or Promethean, you know, big smart board at the front of the screen. 00:14:42.037 --> 00:14:45.007 That technological change didn't add to what we did. 00:14:45.097 --> 00:14:48.787 It fundamentally altered every aspect of that classroom. 00:14:49.237 --> 00:14:54.187 Um, and, and you know, to be clear, I'm not opposed to technology. 00:14:54.217 --> 00:14:55.657 I'm not opposed to Chromebooks. 00:14:55.687 --> 00:14:57.037 I'm not opposed to ai. 00:14:57.037 --> 00:14:57.097 Um. 00:14:58.507 --> 00:15:00.217 I'm opposed to the developers of ai. 00:15:00.217 --> 00:15:01.267 That's a whole different story. 00:15:01.267 --> 00:15:02.137 We could get into that. 00:15:02.167 --> 00:15:04.597 I'm, I'm opposed to, you know, I would, those guys, 00:15:04.927 --> 00:15:05.947 that'd be part, that'd be part two. 00:15:06.067 --> 00:15:08.107 Part two, I'll fight those guys to the hilt. 00:15:08.137 --> 00:15:08.467 Right. 00:15:08.707 --> 00:15:10.987 Um, but I'm not opposed to technology. 00:15:10.987 --> 00:15:14.107 But, but the problem is we didn't look at the comprehensive effects of that. 00:15:14.227 --> 00:15:17.047 And I will, I will say that given every kid a chrome. 00:15:18.457 --> 00:15:21.787 In a classroom has been an unmitigated disaster, right? 00:15:22.117 --> 00:15:26.317 Um, it's affected their relationships, it's affected their ability to communicate. 00:15:26.557 --> 00:15:29.437 It has affected their attention span, it's affected their memory. 00:15:29.767 --> 00:15:33.487 Um, it's, it's at a total impact on every aspect of that classroom. 00:15:33.577 --> 00:15:38.292 And ai, um, AI is going to be, uh, more profound than that, right? 00:15:38.737 --> 00:15:42.427 Um, AI has the potential, um, and again. 00:15:42.817 --> 00:15:44.287 I'm not opposed to ai. 00:15:44.287 --> 00:15:50.017 I think there are really, really good use cases for ai even though the research hasn't necessarily found them all out yet. 00:15:50.377 --> 00:15:55.327 Um, but I, I think that there are some real positive use cases of ai, but we have to know what's coming. 00:15:55.357 --> 00:16:02.497 We have to know, um, not just how to use ai, but, but if we don't study how AI is planning to use us. 00:16:02.682 --> 00:16:06.762 Um, we're going, we're gonna be at the whim of, of somebody else's goals. 00:16:06.762 --> 00:16:08.292 And, and that's a big problem. 00:16:08.532 --> 00:16:11.322 So I think AI is gonna transform student relationships. 00:16:11.502 --> 00:16:17.052 It's gonna transform their ability to communicate, um, their ability to think, um, through problems, right? 00:16:17.052 --> 00:16:17.952 If you have an AI. 00:16:18.397 --> 00:16:20.587 That, um, you get stuck on a problem. 00:16:21.217 --> 00:16:22.507 Are you gonna sit there and deliberate? 00:16:22.537 --> 00:16:25.627 You're gonna reflect, you're going to take a break and, and come back to it? 00:16:25.627 --> 00:16:27.967 No, you're just gonna go to Chad, GBT and say, I'm stuck. 00:16:27.967 --> 00:16:28.567 Help me out. 00:16:28.627 --> 00:16:28.957 Right. 00:16:29.257 --> 00:16:39.487 Um, and so it's going to be transformative and, and unless we know, um, you know, the potential, um, I don't think any of this stuff is necessarily inev inevitable. 00:16:39.757 --> 00:16:46.992 Uh, but unless we understand the potential impact, we're, we're really gonna set ourselves up for, uh, for some potential harm for students and teachers. 00:16:48.142 --> 00:16:57.532 So, so in thinking about some of these negative impacts, um, like from a practical sense mm-hmm. 00:16:58.102 --> 00:17:07.762 Like, we know that there's significant hurdles for, um, for school faculty to, to overcome, to ensure responsible and effective implementation of ai. 00:17:08.182 --> 00:17:12.292 Um, is it a matter of a training policy or something else? 00:17:13.072 --> 00:17:14.932 Yeah, it's, it's all the above, right? 00:17:14.932 --> 00:17:16.882 I mean, it's training, it's policy. 00:17:16.882 --> 00:17:17.692 It is. 00:17:18.082 --> 00:17:27.322 Um, right now, I mean, there's such a, a lack of training, um, in, in the impacts of ai, how to use ai. 00:17:27.712 --> 00:17:33.232 Um, we're getting, uh, there's a shortage of policies, um, around AI that's coming from districts. 00:17:33.562 --> 00:17:36.022 Um, and, you know, I think that. 00:17:37.327 --> 00:17:41.947 You know, the, the biggest thing, the, the biggest hurdle I think might be relationships themselves, right? 00:17:41.977 --> 00:17:43.837 It all comes back to relationships. 00:17:43.837 --> 00:17:46.207 In that classroom, you, you will accomplish nothing. 00:17:46.207 --> 00:17:50.737 As a teacher, you'll accomplish nothing positive if you don't have a, a good relationship with those students. 00:17:50.737 --> 00:17:51.067 Right? 00:17:51.097 --> 00:18:00.697 And so the biggest hurdle to really implementing, um, any, any positive, you know, AI integration and deployment, um. 00:18:01.342 --> 00:18:02.962 Could be those relationships. 00:18:03.202 --> 00:18:06.322 And, and I think there's a lot of fear. 00:18:06.322 --> 00:18:15.622 You know, when, when, when AI first started and kids started to use it and some kids started to cheat, and, you know, um, I think that's more overblown than people believe, but maybe I'm wrong about that. 00:18:15.652 --> 00:18:20.332 I don't, I think the perception is everybody, all the kids are using AI to write all their essays. 00:18:20.362 --> 00:18:21.352 That's just not true. 00:18:21.442 --> 00:18:21.742 Right? 00:18:22.042 --> 00:18:25.312 Um, but I do think that that's the perception among some teachers. 00:18:25.612 --> 00:18:28.762 And so if you're talking about the positive integration of ai. 00:18:29.992 --> 00:18:36.382 And teachers are now going to say, well, I'm assuming that the kids are going to use AI to write all of their papers. 00:18:36.832 --> 00:18:39.352 So I'm gonna now ask them questions about their papers. 00:18:39.352 --> 00:18:44.962 We're gonna have time set aside, and they have to prove to me that they wrote their paper and that they know what they're talking about. 00:18:45.442 --> 00:18:48.142 How you gonna start and establish a good relationship? 00:18:48.742 --> 00:18:50.332 With the premise that you are cheating. 00:18:50.512 --> 00:18:53.542 And it's my job to investigate whether you are actually telling the truth. 00:18:53.932 --> 00:18:56.692 So you are fundamentally harming that relationship. 00:18:56.962 --> 00:19:02.902 And once that happens, in fact, there, there was a study that came out a couple, um, couple months ago from the Center of Democracy and TE technology. 00:19:03.352 --> 00:19:08.207 Half of students felt that their relationship with their teachers was harmed by the presence of AI in the classroom. 00:19:08.687 --> 00:19:09.047 Right. 00:19:09.437 --> 00:19:16.187 Um, and so we just got big questions that, that need to be answered, uh, before we kind of integrate this. 00:19:16.187 --> 00:19:25.127 And so, you know, I know that, um, you know, a lot, a lot of companies, a lot of platforms are approaching systems outta fear saying, you know, you're gonna harm your kids. 00:19:25.127 --> 00:19:28.127 They're not gonna be prepared for the work world and all this stuff. 00:19:28.547 --> 00:19:34.247 Um, and so, you know, they're, they're trying to ramp up, um, the speed at which we deploy and integrate ai. 00:19:34.247 --> 00:19:34.907 And I, I think. 00:19:35.557 --> 00:19:37.837 That's not, that shouldn't be part of the framework, right? 00:19:37.927 --> 00:19:40.507 The, you know, the, um, the purposes have to be aligned. 00:19:40.507 --> 00:19:42.037 The relationship has to be there. 00:19:42.067 --> 00:19:55.247 That, that purpose alignment is really important because our purposes as educators probably, um, are in conflict with the purpose of, of for-profit corporations that have, you know, uh, different incentives than we do. 00:19:55.762 --> 00:19:56.092 Right. 00:19:56.092 --> 00:19:56.152 Yeah. 00:19:56.152 --> 00:20:02.302 So I, I would say that, you know, what we're trying to do at Blair is we're trying to establish an AI impact and integration team. 00:20:02.572 --> 00:20:04.252 And everybody has to be at that table. 00:20:04.252 --> 00:20:08.182 Parents have to be there, students have to be there, teachers have to be there, admin has to be there. 00:20:08.542 --> 00:20:17.722 Um, so that we decide before we, before we bring some platform in, before we bring some corporation in, we decide what has value in our classrooms. 00:20:17.722 --> 00:20:24.017 We decide what the purposes of education are, and at that point, then you unlock the door and you bring, you invite people in, you say. 00:20:24.532 --> 00:20:26.572 We want our students to communicate with each other. 00:20:26.572 --> 00:20:28.102 We don't want them on screen all day. 00:20:28.132 --> 00:20:33.412 We want our students to, um, to enhance their critical thinking, their conceptual thinking. 00:20:33.412 --> 00:20:39.082 We don't want the, um, we don't want that stuff outsourced to, to, you know, a large language model chat bot. 00:20:39.082 --> 00:20:43.072 And so, you know that those, they, that has to be part of the framework. 00:20:43.672 --> 00:20:43.852 Yeah. 00:20:43.852 --> 00:20:47.482 So, but, but from what I heard you say, it sounds like. 00:20:48.127 --> 00:21:02.437 Like you mentioned teachers and parents and administrators, and you said students should be involved in that too, but how are you like intentionally like helping the students understand some of the ethics of, of, of AI and trust and privacy? 00:21:02.437 --> 00:21:07.417 Like how do you, how do you start having the conversation with them so they understand the impact? 00:21:08.302 --> 00:21:08.542 They, 00:21:08.902 --> 00:21:10.762 Darrell, they already know, right? 00:21:10.762 --> 00:21:18.682 They, they, if you want to talk to a student about social media, that may be the one time where they won't stop talking in high school, right? 00:21:18.712 --> 00:21:20.362 It's tough to wake kids up these days. 00:21:20.692 --> 00:21:26.482 You get 'em in a conversation about social media and the impacts of social media and what they see and, and how they understand those messages. 00:21:26.812 --> 00:21:28.102 They will talk for days. 00:21:28.447 --> 00:21:28.717 Right. 00:21:28.717 --> 00:21:33.397 So the students are, you know, I think there was all this talk about students are digital natives. 00:21:33.397 --> 00:21:37.537 They know more about the technology that we do, and I, I don't necessarily know that that's true, right? 00:21:37.867 --> 00:21:40.807 But students are already fluent in a lot of this stuff. 00:21:40.807 --> 00:21:51.847 They've been, they've been the victims, they've been the users of this, you know, and so when it comes to talking to students about ai, um, and cheating and, and do you find purpose and value in what you do? 00:21:51.847 --> 00:21:52.657 And if you don't. 00:21:52.777 --> 00:21:59.377 Why wouldn't you use chat GPT to write your essay if this has no relevance to your life or what you want to do? 00:21:59.737 --> 00:22:02.047 Um, and so they have to be at the table. 00:22:02.107 --> 00:22:04.957 They, they, they should be the first ones with the seat at the table, right? 00:22:05.257 --> 00:22:10.267 Um, the question that gets asked most these days, what should I do if ai. 00:22:10.537 --> 00:22:14.977 As we're being told is going to cause massive, massive unemployment. 00:22:14.977 --> 00:22:19.597 You got kids getting ready to plop down hundreds of thousands of dollars potentially on college educations. 00:22:19.837 --> 00:22:24.397 You got kids that, that are wondering whether, um, the trades is the best avenue now. 00:22:24.427 --> 00:22:24.697 Right? 00:22:24.697 --> 00:22:26.527 Should I be a journalist or should I be a plumber? 00:22:26.737 --> 00:22:27.667 That's a good question. 00:22:27.697 --> 00:22:27.937 Right. 00:22:27.937 --> 00:22:33.697 So the, the kids are ready for these conversations and the kids need to be empowered to drive some of that. 00:22:34.147 --> 00:22:36.607 I don't think the kids want to be on a Chromebook all day long. 00:22:36.762 --> 00:22:48.192 I don't think the kids want to have, um, a large language model as their best friend, but we're not, we are not engaging them in this conversation enough where that they can have some agency. 00:22:48.492 --> 00:22:48.852 Right. 00:22:48.852 --> 00:22:51.102 And, and so, so much of what we're being told is. 00:22:51.937 --> 00:22:53.257 This is what AI is going to do. 00:22:53.257 --> 00:22:54.757 This is why you have to use ai. 00:22:55.117 --> 00:23:06.997 Um, and whatever we decide, you know what, whatever the big six chat, GBT and Grok and you know, c Claude, whatever they decide, you know, that becomes inevitable and, and you just completely rob kids of their agency. 00:23:06.997 --> 00:23:07.987 Nothing we should accept. 00:23:07.987 --> 00:23:09.067 Nothing is inevitable. 00:23:09.072 --> 00:23:09.282 Mm-hmm. 00:23:09.902 --> 00:23:10.322 Mm-hmm. 00:23:11.527 --> 00:23:12.912 So, so we're, we're running outta time. 00:23:12.997 --> 00:23:15.157 We got about five more minutes left before we go to break. 00:23:15.787 --> 00:23:15.997 Mm-hmm. 00:23:17.722 --> 00:23:37.582 If we're thinking about, like, if somebody's listening and, and they're in a different school district, um, different state, different part of the world, careful consideration of AI adoption, what are, what are the top three non-negotiable criteria that that needs to be in that, in that conversation right there? 00:23:38.497 --> 00:23:40.327 Top three there, there's like 10, right? 00:23:41.137 --> 00:23:42.487 Well, gi gimme as many as you can 00:23:42.487 --> 00:23:43.207 in the next 30 00:23:43.207 --> 00:23:43.717 minutes. 00:23:43.722 --> 00:23:45.487 I can, sure, I can, I can rattle all three. 00:23:45.487 --> 00:23:57.157 So number one is, um, you, you have to have your purposes aligned, um, among educator, students, you know, teachers and, and that has to be aligned before you adopt the technology, right? 00:23:57.427 --> 00:24:05.917 Um, number two, th there has to be design features that do not allow students off the cognitive hook. 00:24:06.247 --> 00:24:19.507 Right, and that's, I think that's the biggest fear around AI is that students will use it to e, even if they don't use it to flat out plagiarize and cheat, that they'll be offloading too much of that cognition, the productive struggle that it takes. 00:24:19.567 --> 00:24:21.577 It's really hard to be an educated person. 00:24:21.787 --> 00:24:26.827 There are no shortcuts and, and the idea that we have this shiny, beautiful tool. 00:24:27.302 --> 00:24:27.722 Right. 00:24:27.992 --> 00:24:30.362 That is going to make your learning easier. 00:24:30.722 --> 00:24:34.382 Um, it's just, you know, it's fool's gold, right? 00:24:34.382 --> 00:24:45.872 And so I think there has to be design features that, that, that the AI before a student must demonstrate some metacognition and some reflective capacity before the AI goes into deeper explanations. 00:24:45.872 --> 00:24:47.312 The AI should really kind of be. 00:24:47.822 --> 00:24:50.552 You know, a scaffolded, you know, Socrates. 00:24:50.672 --> 00:24:54.932 But first and foremost, the AI needs to ask, ask questions more than anything else, right? 00:24:55.082 --> 00:25:01.262 Let the students do the heavy cognitive lifting, and the AI can guide them in that as far as scaffolding goes. 00:25:01.562 --> 00:25:03.992 Um, but the AI can't do the cognitive work. 00:25:04.322 --> 00:25:11.972 Um, and another thing that, that I'm sure kids and, and the companies will, Hey, I want every design feature stripped from any ai. 00:25:12.967 --> 00:25:14.587 That humanizes that ai. 00:25:14.707 --> 00:25:21.397 In fact, it, it maybe every fifth comment, the AI should say, you know, I'm just a, a computer crunching numbers and data here. 00:25:21.487 --> 00:25:21.847 Right? 00:25:22.267 --> 00:25:23.182 Um, I want, I love that. 00:25:23.187 --> 00:25:23.827 I love that. 00:25:24.157 --> 00:25:24.397 Yeah. 00:25:24.487 --> 00:25:35.797 Because the, the, the danger of anthropomorphizing these things, right, and treating it as your friend, the number one use, Daryl, the number one use of, of large language models today is as therapy. 00:25:36.217 --> 00:25:50.737 Right, and I understand that there's an absolute lack of therapist therapy is expensive, but man, we're going, we're going to, we're gonna wonder what the costs are of having large language models providing therapy to potentially millions of Americans and, and kids. 00:25:50.797 --> 00:25:51.607 And so. 00:25:51.792 --> 00:25:54.072 Um, yeah, I want, I want humanity. 00:25:54.102 --> 00:25:58.632 I want emotion stripped that thing, it crunches numbers and data and can help us in logic. 00:25:58.692 --> 00:26:00.612 I want a Mr. Spock ai, right? 00:26:00.797 --> 00:26:05.742 I, I don't want the one that, um, that, that says, oh, I really care about you. 00:26:05.922 --> 00:26:09.102 And, um, if nobody else is listening to you, I will listen to you. 00:26:09.252 --> 00:26:11.802 I think that's a, that's a dangerous, dangerous slope. 00:26:12.132 --> 00:26:18.462 Um, and a and a real quick, finally, there has to be verifiable checks that protect students' privacy and data. 00:26:19.002 --> 00:26:20.562 Students are, are not. 00:26:21.082 --> 00:26:33.382 To be taken advantage of and not to be exploited for, um, for a corporation to study all their clicks, how long it takes 'em to do something, what they're doing, what their flaws are, all these things so that they can maximize their profits. 00:26:33.652 --> 00:26:41.207 And, um, and that's, you know, there needs to be verifiable, uh, checks in there because these, the companies can't be trusted. 00:26:41.912 --> 00:26:45.392 Google for a dozen times over the last 10 years Right. 00:26:45.602 --> 00:26:53.942 Has been sued by school districts for, uh, misusing, um, and exploiting students' data, uh, contrary to their terms of agreement. 00:26:53.972 --> 00:26:54.782 And we know this. 00:26:54.842 --> 00:26:56.672 So there you go. 00:26:56.672 --> 00:26:57.482 There's, there's three. 00:26:57.542 --> 00:26:58.082 We keep going. 00:26:58.142 --> 00:26:58.562 Equity. 00:26:58.562 --> 00:26:59.402 You wanna talk equity? 00:26:59.402 --> 00:26:59.732 We 00:26:59.732 --> 00:27:03.002 So drop, drop, drop, drop a second to equity on me. 00:27:03.092 --> 00:27:04.022 A second to equity. 00:27:04.082 --> 00:27:09.992 Um, so these tools, um, will most likely dramatically expand the opportunity gap. 00:27:10.327 --> 00:27:10.627 Right. 00:27:10.657 --> 00:27:21.967 Unless there's some real checks in there, they're gonna, you know, if they don't run on older hardware and you, they only run on newer hardware, the kids that can't afford that, the kids that don't have that, they're at a loss. 00:27:22.207 --> 00:27:28.477 And so I know that there are systems that are saying, you know, we're gonna have checks in to make sure that, you know, everybody has the same thing. 00:27:28.807 --> 00:27:37.327 Um, but, but the, the most, you know, the, the most probabil, the, the biggest probability is that that gap gets widened, you know, dramatically. 00:27:37.837 --> 00:27:37.897 Yeah. 00:27:38.617 --> 00:27:39.037 Yeah. 00:27:39.757 --> 00:27:41.917 A-W-P-F-W audience. 00:27:41.917 --> 00:27:51.577 We have just been listening to a lecture by the Kevin Sheel talking about all the considerations around AI and education. 00:27:51.907 --> 00:27:55.027 We we're so, we're, so let's say this first, let's just establish this. 00:27:55.357 --> 00:27:56.227 We need a part two. 00:27:56.432 --> 00:28:01.187 That's, that's clear that we need to, we need you to come back and we need to have a, a part two about this. 00:28:01.367 --> 00:28:09.887 Um, because there's so many things that we still have to consider and a lot of people have a lot of curiosity around, um, around ai. 00:28:10.067 --> 00:28:11.747 In this show, we talk about education. 00:28:11.747 --> 00:28:16.967 So of course we're going to, we're gonna blend the two, but WPFW you must learn show. 00:28:16.967 --> 00:28:21.077 We are dropping the new information on you that you are not getting anywhere else. 00:28:21.317 --> 00:28:22.757 Um, so. 00:28:23.177 --> 00:28:25.367 I'm going to ask Kevin this last question. 00:28:25.427 --> 00:28:28.002 What else do you want the WPFW audience to know of? 00:28:29.962 --> 00:28:32.332 Um, you know, caution, right? 00:28:32.332 --> 00:28:33.412 Keep your eyes open. 00:28:33.502 --> 00:28:35.782 Um, you, you have to be skeptical. 00:28:35.812 --> 00:28:40.432 The, the, we're being, you know, sold these tools, um, quote unquote right? 00:28:40.432 --> 00:28:46.772 As, as the panacea and, and just understand that the people that are selling these things are, are, are. 00:28:47.422 --> 00:28:52.102 Oftentimes gonna profit from 'em, and they're trying to give you an idealistic vision of the world. 00:28:52.402 --> 00:28:55.282 And we should know that the reality is never the ideal. 00:28:55.372 --> 00:28:55.672 Right? 00:28:55.672 --> 00:28:57.892 And, and we look back to social media. 00:28:57.892 --> 00:29:04.912 If we could have done things differently in 2010, 2012 with regard to social media, what will we have done? 00:29:05.302 --> 00:29:12.892 And once you answer that question, then you have to do that as, as AI emerges, because I see us just where it's the same path. 00:29:12.892 --> 00:29:13.372 Right. 00:29:13.372 --> 00:29:15.922 The same uncritical, non skeptical path. 00:29:16.252 --> 00:29:20.392 Um, and, and we need to maintain, you know, our, our agency over this. 00:29:20.692 --> 00:29:20.992 Yeah. 00:29:21.232 --> 00:29:21.592 Yeah. 00:29:21.922 --> 00:29:22.522 Alright. 00:29:22.702 --> 00:29:24.802 You heard it from Kevin Sheel folks