Hey, this is a podcast for coaches and I am Mark Butler.
I wanted to share an interview with you that I recorded well over a year
ago with my friend, Amber Smith.
Amber is a coach who has experimented with lots of different business models.
And she's had some success in all of them.
But one of the places where Amber and I have connected is in the
fact that she is so committed.
Too.
And so skilled in one-on-one coaching, she has.
An incredible voice for this work.
She has great insight.
She's a student of the work that we all do.
And I love her perspective and I've been so excited to share it with you.
So I dug this recording out of my archives.
I cleaned it up, gave it some light editing.
Got ambers permission.
And with her permission, I'm sharing it with you today.
Her name is Amber Smith.
You can find her at www dot it's Amber smith.com and she's on
Instagram at it's Amber Smith.
So without further ado, here's my conversation from late 2022.
With my friend, Amber Smith.
You're a coach, you're a coach who does a variety of things.
That's part of why I wanted to chat with you other than I
just like you and respect you.
But the background I'm going to give on Amber is that I've known
Amber for, or known of Amber for a while, known Amber for a while.
And when Kate and I, Kate, my wife and I interacted with you almost a year ago now.
Was it almost a year ago?
I don't know.
I don't know when it was.
Kate said she could coach you.
And Kate never says that.
Kate has, to be clear, Kate has never said that.
And I trust Kate's instincts about people way more than I trust
my own instincts about people.
And so I respect you.
I respect your work.
And I think you have a lot to say to the people whose attention I have.
The thing we actually, I want to make sure we don't miss this is that I want to talk
to you about one on one client creation.
Yeah.
Because I think that's how you say it, don't you?
Yeah.
I do use the word create one on one clients.
Which I want to hear about.
And then I imagine as we talk about that, we'll, we'll find
our way into other topics.
Yeah.
Talk to me about one on one client creation.
What just, what comes to mind when I even give you that, that mini prompt?
Yeah, the first thing that comes to mind is a story, , to like
demonstrate what I'm talking about.
I have three girls, I coached their t ball team.
I don't know if we've talked about this story, you and I, but it's relevant
to creating one on one clients.
And I'm sitting at this t ball game and, , another mom was there
and she's like, so what do you do?
And, you know, I'm like, Oh, I'm a coach.
And she goes, Oh, like, like Jen Sincero, who wrote, you were a bad
ass, you know, it's like, funny.
Yeah.
Like, kind of like that.
She went straight there.
Yeah.
Like she had just finished the book and so, , it was on her mind.
Right.
And I'm like, yeah, kind of like that.
And she's like, that's so cool.
And I was like, yeah, so what do you do?
And she's like, I'm a real estate agent.
And I'm like, that's so cool.
, how's it going?
And she's like, really good.
It was, she's in Utah.
So back in the day, , you know, let's see, this was in 20.
And the 2020, maybe 2021 anyway.
And she was like, it's going good.
Like things are awesome.
I, I'm, I'm selling a lot of houses and I'm like, cool.
And so we just kind of chatted back and forth about her business.
And, , she's like, well, like, tell me more about like this coaching
thing, you know, just in conversation.
And so I was like, yeah, well, I talked to people that were
with a lot of entrepreneurs.
, it's a lot about, you know, just mindset.
Creating the life you want, overcoming what you think is limiting you.
And she's like, yeah, I really need that.
I think we should talk about what it might look like to, to coach.
And I was like, yeah, maybe like we can talk about it maybe next week.
Okay.
But did she really go straight there?
Did she really go straight to, she wanted to know if we should talk because
she had just read the book, right?
She's like, well, what would it look like for me to be like coached?
Like, does, do you coach people like me?
Cause like we'd kind of just talked and I didn't really like
feel like it was appropriate to be like, yeah, let me coach you.
And I was like, well, we can talk about it more next week.
Like what it might be like, you know, cause she had admitted that she was
trying to get into luxury real estate.
And so I kind of like was talking about what it means.
Like, I think I used the big leap as an example of something we
were talking for like 40 minutes.
Like it was like a, it was a coaching conversation.
I didn't call it that, but it was totally a coaching conversation.
But my husband had been like, kind of, I don't know, not like eavesdropping,
but kind of just right there.
And he was like, why didn't you like sell her coaching?
Like, she obviously wants it.
And I'm like, that's not how clients are made.
She's not actually quite ready.
She's interested right now.
You know, she's, she thinks it's really cool.
Cause she just read this book, but like, I don't know if she's ready to actually
like talk about coaching together.
And he's like, okay.
He's like, watch, he just couldn't understand it.
So then the next week we're at t ball and she's like, I can't stop
thinking about our conversation.
Like I cannot stop.
Can I, I cannot stop thinking about it.
I really want to do luxury real estate.
I'm nervous.
I think what you talked about with like self concept is really important.
And I was like, yeah, I'm like, I'm really glad it was helpful.
Would you want to like schedule like an official.
Yeah.
Coaching call where we like, actually, like I show you what I do in like
real life, not at the T ball game, but like we can schedule a real call.
And then we did, so it was like a month later, but she ended up hiring me.
And I feel like the process that it went through, I think I had a little
bit of an advantage because she had just finished that book from a coach.
Right.
So it's fresh on her mind, but even if it wasn't just like, We started as friends
and she'd be like, I created her into a client, but not like, I wasn't like at the
T ball game being like, Hey, I'm a coach.
Like, come work with me.
You were not handing out flyers.
The whole little billboard.
Here's, here's one of the many things that fascinates me about this.
In, in an earlier episode of this podcast, I talk about how I think
content's main job in a one on one coaching business is to create a very
soft landing for people into your world.
But it did not occur to me that other people's content could create
a soft landing into your world.
And that's what Jen, Jen Sincero's book did for you that day.
So there is something to be said there about how, and I'll be curious to have
you comment, comment on this, but I do have the belief that if someone has any
sort of context whatsoever as it relates to coaching, then they are miles ahead.
of a person who doesn't have that context when it's time to engage
them in a coaching conversation.
What do you think about that?
What would you add to that?
Yeah, I agree.
I think I would have approached the conversation a lot different
if she had never heard of coaching.
It'd be a very much gentler conversation because it was front of mind.
She had just finished the book.
I think it was, it was different.
She already had her soft landing into the coaching.
, but I've had conversations with people who know nothing about coaching.
Yeah.
And.
They are like, so what is it?
And it's funny because I think you and I have probably probably have similar.
Well, you talk to people like we talk, talk.
That's when I ask questions and they say things and yeah.
Yeah.
And the best thing that I think I offer people is like, well, let me
just like, what if we just coached?
It's, it's hard to talk about in theory.
Like, what if I just showed you what that's like?
Do you call it something?
In your own mind, do you call it a consultation?
Do you call it a, what do you call it?
It's, it depends on who I talk to.
Right now I call it a chat.
You want to chat about working together?
Like, especially if it's someone that's been in my world for a while,
if it's a coach, often they will say, can we have a consultation?
Yes, fine.
In my mind, I don't think of it as a consultation because I think you
and I think similarly about this.
I'm not looking to close a sale.
I'm looking to open a relationship with this person.
So it's not always even a consultation.
It's like, Let's see if we even like talking to each other, you know, you
just triggered my memory of, , what you were saying to me when we were
together a couple of weeks ago about different types of gardeners.
And I was telling you, I have an episode of this show about gardening.
So don't let me forget.
I want to come back to that, but.
I want to go back to the moment where you're talking with the first
conversation you're having with this realtor, because your, your story from
your husband, I think really contrasts.
It demonstrates the two sides of a coach's brain.
It just happened that your husband was one half of that
brain and you were the other half.
I think it illustrates a struggle that so many coaches deal with in the
moment of the conversation, which is as you're talking with her and she says
to you, Oh, you mean like Jensen Charo?
That kind of coaching, how in that moment, do you not jump straight
to a transactional attitude of, Oh, I could probably get quote, get a
client right now, because that's where your husband's brain went.
And that's where so many of our friends and clients brains go.
Yeah.
Well, and what's funny is like I first offered to , get her
in touch with other coaches.
Like I didn't think of myself as like her coach.
Okay.
Because I didn't know, like I, I didn't know, I don't assume
that I'm everyone's coach.
I don't walk into a room and be like, I can coach everyone.
Like you're my, you're my potential client.
Like the word that I've heard other people describe.
Other, other coaches that do this is like poaching.
Like I'm out to get you as a client.
And that's just not my style.
And it feels creepy.
Some people might say to you, Amber, Oh, but Amber, if, if
your first thought is that.
Maybe I could help her find a coach.
Somebody might say to you, but well, don't you value yourself?
Aren't you, aren't you confident in your coaching?
Why are you trying to send her elsewhere?
What, what would be your reply?
Yeah.
So I actually, I listened to your episode, the new, your newest one,
just to kind of get a feel for what you've been talking about.
And you said something that I resonate with.
I'm almost always fully booked.
I'm, I'm not needing clients and fully booked based on like what you said,
like based on my inventory, right?
I have nine, I have eight one on one clients right now.
And that feels really good to me.
I think at the time when I was talking to her, I maybe had
five or six, but that felt.
Full to me, it's not like I'm out there looking.
And so in my first inclination was like, I just want to help this person.
It might, you know, it might be some, like someone I know it might
be a real estate coach that like only coaches real estate agents.
And so I do value my coaching, but I don't also, it's like that juxtaposition
of like, I also don't need clients.
As you heard me say in that episode and as you're saying now, it's, I find
it easier to generate that confidence when I am quote unquote fully booked.
Do you remember feeling any differently when you weren't fully booked?
What did you do back then to generate that sort of peace and confidence to
take into those interactions with people?
Yeah, I was coaching.
Like I was having conversations often.
And I think one of the things that I don't think enough coaches do, we can talk, I'm
curious what your thoughts are about this, but I like positioned it, especially as
in your coach is like, you're helping me.
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
You say yes to coaching.
Like you're helping me get experience, especially as a new coach, which I
don't see very many people doing that.
No.
But like, that's where I, so I had a goal to the coach, a hundred people for free.
And I let my whole like Yeah.
Like this is how I started.
Sorry.
I'm laughing because literally, so this episode hasn't been published, but
literally yesterday I was, I was doing an interview with another client of mine.
We were talking along these same lines and I said, I have this, this urge to
invite coaches to do 100 conversations.
So this is just for those of you listening, Amber and
I often laugh about how we.
Yeah.
Seem to run into the same thoughts often independent of each other, but
yeah, that a hundred conversations thing and the thing of where you're
in, you're acknowledging that they're really helping you in those early days.
In another episode, I talked about how when sometimes when people say I'm
considering this 10, 000 or 15, 000 mastermind and they're very early in
their business, I'll say, Hey, instead buy a hundred gift cards and pay people.
To let you coach them with those gift cards, get yourself in, plant a bunch
of seeds, do a lot of practicing, become a better listener, become interested in
people it, it, I feel like it creates this inevitability of, of, of success.
If you'll do that.
It sounds like you did it.
I did.
Well, and one of the questions I get is like, well, how do
you become a masterful coach?
Cause like a lot of clients are interested in how I coach and
I'm like, well, I've coached.
So many people that's how you can't skip the part where you
coach people, you know what I mean?
And so I went right into it I think I was gifted the opportunity of like I
didn't really have anyone in my ear at this time I hadn't found any podcast.
I didn't find Rich Litvin yet.
Like I who's like a One of my mentors, I would consider him.
I didn't find like the life coach school.
I didn't know any coaches.
I just like stumbled on it.
And so I just was like, I think the best way to do it is to get
people to say yes, which means it has to be like them helping me.
Cause I know that people are more inclined to help.
Then like, Oh, I'll like, I want coaching.
They don't even know what coaching is.
I barely knew what coaching was.
Right.
And so I positioned it like you're helping me if you jump on this call.
And I tried to get a hundred.
I didn't because eventually people were like, how do we keep doing this?
I want to do this again.
Can we keep talking?
And so I got actually got my first like 10 clients.
One of the reasons you are a fascinating character in my, in
my mind is that you just said, I didn't have anyone in my ear yet.
Now, I know you to be a great student of coaching and a student of psychology
and, and self personal development.
I know you to be a great student of all these things, but I also know you
to be a person who is not, I don't think I've said this to you before,
but you are not in a hurry to join me.
A particular group, a dogma you, you strike me as more confident than
most people in your willingness to sort of make your own way through the
development of your business and your development as a person, as a coach.
Yeah.
How did that happen?
Part of it was like, I've always just been an avid reader.
So like if you, I'm like looking at my desk right now, like I have a
book like called Living Untethered.
I have a book, The Prosperous Coach, which I keep on my desk, but I also have like a
Buddhism book and a stoic, like the Daily Stoic and Meditations by Marcus Aurelius.
Like I think I study a lot of different ideas.
So I don't have a dogma about coaching.
I think that there's lots of different ways.
I also came from the world of psychology.
So I think I was just exposed to a lot of different teachers on personal
development, self help transformation.
And so I think that's just kind of how I started.
Yeah.
And you, I mean, you seem not to feel any particular FOMO about
like, you don't know, did you ever?
Do you ever have FOMO about, Oh, my peers are joining this thing or my friends, or
is there ever a sense of, in you of like, I don't really want to miss that or, or
do you just feel very sort of at rest?
I'm at rest.
I'm at peace.
I don't join things even for like the I've joined, like I've been a mastermind,
but I joined for very specific reasons.
I didn't join to be part of the club, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
Or like to be part of the group I joined for specific reasons for
my business development, right?
It's like not social.
Yes.
It's interesting.
It's not typical.
In my experience.
It's not typical.
Okay.
I'm going to go back to the realtor at the t ball game.
So in the moment that you're talking with her, you're able to stay
out of a transactional attitude.
You're not viewing her as dollar signs in the intervening week
before the next t ball game.
Is she on your mind?
Do you have any inkling to reach out to her or, or has she,
has she gone from your mind?
Yeah, I got busy, but my husband brought it up a couple of times cause he doesn't
know, he doesn't really know what I do.
So he sees this, this like opportunity and he's like, well,
are you going to talk to her?
And I'm like, like, what do you mean?
He's like, are you gonna like message her on Instagram or something?
And I'm like, no.
No, no, I'm not.
I'll see her at T ball and if she asks about it, we'll talk about it again.
Because I think.
One, the other thing that I think you and I both have in common is
like, I study myself like I'm very interested in why, how, like, why
do I hire the people that I hire?
Why do I study the things that I studied?
Why did I hire my first coach?
Why did I hire my next coach?
Like, and pressure.
That's never why I bought something.
And if I ever feel pressure, I'm out.
Yeah.
So I never want to give the experience of pressure to a potential or
just, I wouldn't even like the word potential client, like even just a
connection, a person and a friend.
So I never really thought about her that week, even the
phrase potential client colors.
Your, your view of her, your attitude about her.
You you've look, I don't think either one of us would say it's the end of
the world to call someone a potential client, but it may hint at, it may
hint at a transactional attitude that may not serve the relationship.
Yeah.
Well, and if people ask me like which of these people in your
list is a potential client that wouldn't really resonate with me.
I'm like, I don't know.
I don't know.
Yeah.
Yes.
That's actually really, really well said.
The next week at the T ball game, she brought it back up.
Were you surprised that she brought it back up?
I was because in my mind I'm like, she's a busy woman.
Like it might've been interesting in the moment.
I also know that emotions.
Like, it's just interesting how people, what people say when they're
emotional, like she was excited.
Right.
She had just finished this book.
She met a real life coach, which is so funny because when we get in the
coaching industry, we think we're such like a dime a dozen, but that's
not how other people experience us.
Right.
They're like, wow.
So interesting.
And so she, like her emotions are really high.
So I just didn't really, if I saw her again, I wasn't even going to bring it up.
Like I was just going to let the conversation roll.
And it did just roll.
We eventually, like in the beginning, we were talking about our kids and the game,
we weren't even talking about business.
And then she brought it up.
Like, I can't stop thinking about our conversation that we had last week.
You said you invited her then to a coaching call, a coaching interaction.
And I know you're a.
I don't know if at the time you were, you were using a prosperous coach kind
of approach, but I do know that when you interact with people, it tends
to be purely a coaching interaction.
So then you set up a time to talk with her.
Did you do that on zoom?
How long did it last?
What was the content of the conversation?
Yeah.
So, yeah, I've been doing the prosperous coach approach since like 28, 2019, I
think is when I read the book and I just, it just like landed for me really well.
So I like, like a lot of my clients, I invented a program for her on the spot.
Like I think that this is what would make sense for you.
The context of the conversation was about her self concept as a
luxury real estate agent, fun store.
That story has a fun ending.
She like sold 16 million worth of real estate last quarter.
Luxury real estate, which is cool.
Right.
Very cool.
Not like, I don't think I wouldn't like be like because of my coaching,
but like there was a happy, we're not coaching together anymore, but there
was a period of time where like, it felt very daunting to her to embody
or be a luxury real estate agent.
And that's really what was on her mind.
That's what she wanted.
And so that was the whole context of the conversation of what would that be like?
What connections do you have?
What would you have to stop believing about yourself?
very coachy type questions.
And I think it really challenged her.
I think a lot of people who aren't in personal development, at least
the way coaches tend to be, like that, just that conversation alone
was very mind blowing for her.
Almost no one is doing this kind of introspection.
I mean, almost no one, and it's, I'm, I'm very curious as, as to why I don't
go to the idea that like, Oh, because people are broken or because they're
bad or so I'm not sure why no one's statistically speaking, almost no one
is doing this kind of introspection, but when you invite them to it and
they're prepared, it is mind blowing.
I find it mind blowing and I been doing it for years with my own coaches.
It's still mind blowing.
In the, in the coach, in that initial coaching interaction, it's
okay if you don't remember details, but for you, how does that, how
does that individual interaction evolve and how does it sort of end?
What is the last five or 10 minutes of that phone call sound like,
or that zoom call sound like?
Yeah.
So I think the way that I operate is I'm not going to.
Sell.
I think that was another important thing that I don't even get on coaching
calls or some people call them consult calls with like the intention to sell.
I don't always make an offer on those kinds of calls depending
on how it goes because.
I don't like that's, that's a pretty big assumption but like they want to
talk about working together because all I did was invite her to a more formal
coaching call where we could talk more.
I had, I kind of, I had like an inkling that she might ask what it would be
like just because, because of our other two previous conversations.
So we talked, you know, about her self concept, what she wants.
Kind of like in the prosperous coach, he talks about like the default
future versus the possible future.
And I made a case for her possible future and just was really honest about what I
saw that like, I'm like, I think you're already this person because she was,
and so I think some of her thoughts.
About her doubt and just, you know, who am I to do that?
There's already people doing that in Utah kinds of things.
You know, another, another coach might not have wanted to tell her
that she's already that person.
Another coach might have wanted to hold that because if I tell her she's
already that person, maybe she'll decide she doesn't need to coach with me.
If I, if I somehow plant the seed that she could be, but is not yet that person,
then, I'm creating an incentive for her to sign up with me, quote unquote.
Yeah.
You didn't do that.
You didn't hold that back.
Why not?
I think I caught something that you said.
You said she might not feel the need to hire me.
And that's, I think another strong underlying belief that
I have that people can feel.
I think you have this too, is that I don't need her to sign.
I actually don't think anyone needs to hire me.
Yeah.
No one needs a coach.
So she doesn't.
No one needs a coach.
No one needs a coach, but some people want one.
And I think the people who get the most out of it just want it., I give
credit to Rich Litvin for that line.
I don't know if I'm quoting him correctly, but I've walked around for
years now with the idea that no one needs a coach, but some people want one.
And that is sufficient.
I can, around that one idea, I can build an amazing practice, amazing
relationships, be part of amazing results.
Yep.
Another thing you said was I'm not going to say she did that because of
my coaching and I know you mean that you don't think she sold 16 million
in the last quarter because of your coaching, but you did participate.
Yeah.
So I, but like, I think of coaching like a tool, right?
Like if someone picks up a hammer and builds a house, the
hammer didn't build the house.
The person picked up a tool.
She was a, she made it happen because partially because she
hired a coach to help her.
Partially because she already had the innate skill set.
She takes great care of her clients.
She was already giving people a luxury experience long before she was ever
a luxury, luxury real estate agent.
Right.
She already like saw, like, I would call it wealth consciousness.
Like she already had it.
Like I wasn't lying to her on the call where I was like, I
already see you as this person.
Like that was just me reflecting something that I saw.
It wasn't like paying lip service.
And so it was already in her.
So to me, it's not surprising that she's It's killing it.
She already had it.
It's fascinating.
It's it's so, is it even, I was about to say it's counterintuitive,
but I'm actually not sure.
I think it is counterintuitive.
I think it's intuitive, but most of what we do acts against that intuition.
I agree.
Why do you think that happens?
Why do you think we're so prone to going against that inner peace
that drives your way of being with her and with other clients?
That's a good question.
I think partially what we talked about earlier about being students, a lot of
coaches are students and they listen to one piece of advice and take it as law.
Whereas like, I think you and I both are having a healthy skepticism about
things where it's like, nothing's law.
So does that fit for me?
Like there are laws, but not in what we do.
Right.
And so like, do I have to overcome objections?
Should I not coach on a consult call?
Do I have to sell right away?
All of those things that I'm like, those aren't alignment.
Those don't feel good in my body.
To do that, it feels unnatural to me and I think a lot of what people feel
like they need to do it's unnatural to them and they're like, well, it's wrong
what the way that I feel naturally is wrong because so and so said this or
this is how it worked for so and so instead of like checking in and like,
how does this feel to me, I think.
I've always done this was what feels right to me.
An unfortunate thing can happen in this world of personal development
of coaching can be that people in positions of leadership, people in
positions of influence, maybe in large part because of their own anxieties.
And feeling like they have to get other quote, get other people results.
They bring urgency and anxiety into what they're teaching.
Also, I do have an opinion that with training programs in particular,
many training programs, we have to build complexity into them.
So there's a reason to buy them because if I want to create a training
program and the training program is.
Have conversations, listen to your, as you put it, listen to the feelings in
your body, trust your intuition repeat.
It's not much of a training program.
There's not, there's not, there's, you know, that's a one page ebook.
It's a one paragraph ebook.
So sometimes I think complexity comes in because without that complexity, there's.
There's not much to put into my course that I'm trying to sell
if I am trying to sell a course.
Yeah, it's going to justify what I want to charge for it and why it's important.
Yeah.
So I can say the three steps I always use or five keys to blah or whatever.
It's not that I think those courses never have merit or value, but as
you said, I want to bring a healthy skepticism to it so that I'm always
staying in tune with my own feelings, my own sense of what's right and natural.
Yeah.
And then being very careful about which things I pick up from other people and
which things I, I just leave on the side.
Yeah.
Cause I think that some people don't even have that filter.
They're just like, well, this person said this, so this must be the way.
I had the most fascinating client client call yesterday, where would be thoughtful
about how he share any of these details.
I was on a call with a marketing.
Client's marketing person and the client and the marketing, the client
was referring to another business and saying that business seems amazing
and the marketing person did what I've done so many times as the CFO guy,
he said, look, I've had conversations with that team from that company and.
Basically, not all that glitters is gold.
What it looks like on the outside is not what's going on on the inside.
And he said to her, your business is stronger, healthier, and more
profitable than that business.
He basically said it's a Lamborghini body on a Toyota Corolla, basically.
And so it's so easy for me included.
I think I, I think I've developed.
You know, my ability to to not fall into this trap anymore, but it's so easy to
fall into the trap of it looks right.
It sounds right.
It must be right.
It's sort of ticking all my lower brain boxes.
And so it must be right.
And I'm trying to, and I know you are too.
I'm trying to get people to just raise their sensitivity and their awareness
of what really might be going on.
Well, and I think one of the questions that I think you and I talked about
this when we were at the conference, but like, Do you want to be a CEO?
I don't know if we use these words, but did you want to be
a CEO or did you want to have powerful conversations with people?
Not that CEOs don't, it's just their job title is different, right?
A training business is a lot of CEO work versus like one of the
things that I got into this for.
And one of the things that I love about it is having powerful
conversations with real people.
One to one.
And if that's your goal, there's, there's not a whole lot to it.
I mean, there's a lot to it, but the steps can be written on a,
on a three by five note card.
Pretty much.
How do you think I you're, you're a mom.
You said you have three girls.
Your kids are young.
Are they not?
Yeah.
Yeah, six, four, and two.
I know you're very thoughtful and intentional about your
work day and your work week.
Will you describe it and your, and your thoughts around it?
Yeah.
So I, I only work, like I have a fuller day Monday and Wednesday,
but like even on my work days, I go to pick them up from school.
So it's like, I'm not working the whole day.
I do lunch with them.
That was always important to me.
So I work Mondays and Wednesdays.
This week was weird.
I have you and then I have another client.
Anyway, this is an anomaly.
This is not super common, but my nanny's here today.
And I'm always mindful of the lifestyle, which is why I love one on one coaching.
I think most people, it's like you get to decide when you work and
when you don't, who you take and who you don't like, what vacations
you take and you know what I mean?
The freedom.
So that was always important to me.
And I think I backed.
Into coaching that way.
Cause when I started coaching, I had basically a two year old, not even a two
year old, like a one year old and a baby.
So you've come through, you've come through, I mean, you've got
toddler, you've got infant, you've had a pregnancy, another infant,
now toddler, now a kindergartner.
You've been through all these phases while building your business.
Yeah.
How was that for you?
, where did you feel friction?
Where did you feel tension?
What was it like?
I think the tension is between like my ambition and my like, almost like the
Zen I'm like a very like Zen person's like, like my desire to live a very
simple, innately beautiful life.
That's like kind of private.
I've always liked that.
And so the tension was like, how do achieve my dreams?
And like do what I want to do.
I thought I was going to be a therapist.
I don't know if we talked about that, but I always thought I
would be like working with people.
And I wanted a career that I could be home with my kids.
So like I work probably like 15 hours a week or so.
Which I like sometimes more, sometimes less depending.
But I always like backed into my business from a lifestyle perspective.
If that makes sense.
Yeah.
You had your, your lifestyle, your, your values first.
Yeah.
Your, your business goals second.
But you do talk about some tension between some tension in there
because you are an ambitious person.
I, I actually think you're more ambitious than I am.
I don't know that we've really talked about longterm goals, but I, I think you
have energy for growth and creation and yeah, not that I don't, but I do think
you might have a little more than I do.
How, how do you, how do you maintain your peace of mind with that tension?
Yeah, that's why I got, I do like more deep spiritual type work where it's like
making peace with the present moment.
This is why, like, I started studying mindfulness and meditation
because I needed to calm my mind because on hyperdrive, right?
Like I could think about all the things I want to create, but at the
end of the day, I also know that that Like there isn't better than
here, you know, lots of coachy speak, but it's not, it's truly not.
And so I think of it more like a video game that, that
metaphor is very helpful to me.
Like, it's like a game I want to play business is something that's interesting
to me, but it's also not everything.
And it doesn't.
It doesn't come first, it's, it's second, and I have to do
a lot of work to remember that.
Yeah,, because of the culture we live in, there will always be a
lot of external inputs telling you to go faster, do more, be bigger.
Those inputs never see, they never cease, they never get quiet.
So there's sort of a, like brushing your teeth and flossing.
Nature to maintaining inner peace, remembering what I'm doing, why
I'm doing it right now that there are seasons to these things.
And this is one season and there will be another season.
You're being honest and admitting that you're not
completely solved on this topic.
You have to do maintenance work.
I feel the same way.
I have, I have to sort of my coach calls it recontextualizing.
I'm constantly recontextualizing.
I made a keynote presentation, a PowerPoint presentation with
like six slides and they all have one big sentence on them.
And I recontextualize with, this is what matters.
And I go back there because if not, I have this ability to spiral out of
control with a million ideas and a bunch of anxiety about those ideas.
And then, you know, thanks to therapy, coaching and meditation, I have a
lot more physical sensitivity to how my body reacts, that anxiety,
and it's a signal that tells me it's time to go meditate or go for a walk.
It's time to look at your keynote slides because I don't
think that work has ever done.
Yeah.
And that's why I keep paying for coaching.
And someone was like, well, what?
Like, what, what do you think will happen if like your
clients don't need you anymore?
I'm like, it's not about needing, it's like, it's that continual, like
the reason coaching stays valuable is because I'm still living my life.
It doesn't end.
Right.
And so like brushing your teeth and flossing.
I love that metaphor.
It's not that I need it or like, I'm going to get go crazy without it.
It's just like, I like how I live when I'm doing self reflection when I'm evaluated
my values and deciding consciously to live my life instead of letting whoever.
dictate or sell me on an idea that I didn't even want.
And I think that happens a lot where we get sold an idea without really like
running it through our own filtering system of like, is that even what I want?
Is that the lifestyle I even want?
Is that the business I even want?
I love how you always come back to this idea of not needing it when we
were at the, we were at the thing in Arizona together and you were
teaching so clearly the principle of not being in a place of need.
Yeah.
It's so powerful.
You don't need your clients and it's just as powerful to say they don't
need you, which we touched on earlier.
But something I hear coaches saying sometimes is, Oh, my client told me
they couldn't have done it without me.
And I will push back on that and say, your clients can and will do it without you.
That's fine.
You are fortunate enough to get to participate in their process in whatever
way is beneficial, beneficial to them.
They can do it without you.
They will do it without you.
They don't need you.
You don't need them.
All of this is coming from a place of desire and possibility, not lack,
not need, not can't, none of it.
Yep.
Or codependency.
Yeah.
In fact, when I hear one of my clients say, couldn't have done it without you.
I'm like.
Hmm.
How did I let that, how did that come about?
You know, it's almost like something, it's like a red flag.
I'm like, okay, we need to talk about this.
It doesn't happen often, but when it does, I'm like, what did I miss that?
I helped her see that she's the powerful creator in her life.
She's doing this.
That's a great point.
I think that's a really great point.
I will tell you that the way I've learned, I've just practiced a, an instant reframe.
If a client ever tells me I couldn't have done it without you in my head, I just
say, that's their way of saying thank you.
Yes.
That's a good reframe.
Because I believe that they're saying thank you.
And I can say you're welcome and still not believe that they quote,
couldn't have done it without that.
I want to.
And maybe our last few minutes here, just, I just want to go on a little curiosity
path with you because you explore a lot of different business models.
You're an experimenter and I know you have stuff going on with potential for groups.
Yep.
And I'm curious just to hear you free associate around the idea of one on
one versus small groups or big groups.
Just whatever comes to your mind.
I want to hear it.
Yeah.
So I've tried a lot and I think we can laugh about our, you
know, past mistakes and failures.
One of the things I tried was like a low, very low ticket membership.
And.
Didn't work out to put it to make it simple.
But I do think it's a different way of thinking.
I think one of the things I'm experimenting with right now
is selling my group program.
Like I sell one-on-one.
Oh, yes.
Which has been very good for me.
Say more about this.
So like I have a consult to use that, like, I didn't call it that,
but to use a word that everyone knows.
Like I have a consult on Monday with someone who's like, I'm
considering joining the the Matrix.
Can we have a call?
And I'm like, yes.
Because that's like my intention is actually to like have a call
with people about the group.
It's going to be slower and that's fine.
I'm not going to do launches.
I'm not going to do like a lot of things that people typically think of when
they think of like a scaled program.
I'm also capping my program so I won't take unlimited amount of people.
When I hit 40, I close it.
Why are you okay with it?
Why are you okay with going, it going slower?
And why are you, and why are you choosing not to do launches?
I did launches and they work like that's the thing I think that is
interesting is like the psychology of marketing is very powerful.
And so I got really interested in because marketing is just applied human behavior.
Right.
And so I think marketing is fascinating, but also like you have to know,
I heard this from Dan Kennedy.
He says, you have to know which side of the cash register you're on.
And that really blew my mind because I realized like we can
be influenced by marketers.
To give them money, but we can also be on the cash register of
getting people to give us money.
But do you like that whole scenario?
Do you, do I like my reasons for marketing?
When you think of marketing, like deploying like urgency and scarcity and
FOMO and all these powerful, powerful, sometimes manipulative tactics.
Was I okay with that?
And my answer was no.
And that was really, like, I'm actually in a period of deep reflection on
kind of, because like, it's worked.
I've made a lot of money doing things that I've learned from books and from mentors.
But is that what resonates with me in my soul?
And it didn't.
And so I wanted to, like, immediately apply that into the matrix where
it's like, if it's a good fit, and it's going to actually benefit you.
Great.
I'm here when you're ready.
I'm not going to push you.
I'm not going to open it and close it.
I've done opening and closing it.
So if you know me and you're listening to this and you're like, but you did it.
I'm like, yeah, I did.
I did do open, open and close, but I, I'm, I had to ask myself why, and
does this actually match my values?
And that was a hard answer.
So yeah, it's going to be slower and I'm good with that because
my business feels good right now.
It feels good to me.
I don't know how many different ways to say it.
And it's okay for us to just keep repeating it, but having a
business that feels good is winning.
It is the finish line.
It doesn't mean we're done growing, experimenting, learning, expanding.
It doesn't mean that it's the end of any of that.
It's just the end of anxious striving and worry because my business feels good.
And that is the victory.
Yeah.
And then the tension that you experience isn't growth.
It's how do I create more sufficiency?
How do I create more calm?
That's the tension that we feel and it's different.
I think it's an inward journey instead of like an outward,
how can I grow my audience?
How can I get more people journey?
And I've always been on that side anyway, the more reflective,
deeper thinking journey.
Is there anything else you'd want to tell people?
Who's whose ear we happen to have today?
That your mind is as good as anyone else's, that you really can decide what,
what your business is going to be like for you and that your ideas aren't wrong.
You should try them.
That's what I'm saying.
Try them.
You should try them.
And if it means ignoring Mark Butler and Amber Smith, then by all means.
Go do your thing.
And when it feels right, pay very close attention to that feeling.
Where should people, what should people go do right now to, to engage with you?
They could hang out with me on Instagram at it's Amber
Smith again, ITS Amber Smith.
That's probably the best place for people to find me.
Awesome.
Well, you know, I I respect you.
I think you're doing amazing work in the world.
Glad to have formed a friendship with you.
And I appreciate you giving time to this to this particular audience right now.
Yeah.
You got great things going on.
I will be excited to hear that, hear about your continued success.
Thanks, Mark.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah.
You bet.
Okay, everybody.
That's another episode of the beautiful business.
And we'll talk to you next time.