WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.170 --> 00:00:01.120 Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us. 00:00:01.190 --> 00:00:03.230 Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free. 00:00:03.410 --> 00:00:06.810 I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times bestselling author of 00:00:06.830 --> 00:00:08.389 The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home. 00:00:08.450 --> 00:00:13.089 Before I jump in with today's guest, I want to say a huge thank you to you, our 00:00:13.089 --> 00:00:14.989 audience, for helping to make this happen. 00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:15.949 I have a request. 00:00:16.219 --> 00:00:19.750 If you like what we do here, please give it a thumbs up, 00:00:19.799 --> 00:00:22.380 like, subscribe, tell a friend. 00:00:22.770 --> 00:00:24.910 It really, really helps us to make the pro. 00:00:24.910 --> 00:00:28.930 To find out about our certification courses, online video libraries, 00:00:29.435 --> 00:00:33.325 books, and other courses, please go to rupertisaacson.com. 00:00:34.894 --> 00:00:36.125 So now let's jump in. 00:00:36.775 --> 00:00:38.095 Welcome back lads. 00:00:38.155 --> 00:00:40.555 I've got an old friend here. 00:00:40.644 --> 00:00:48.445 I've got Rajan De that might give you a little bit of a clue into her nationality. 00:00:48.445 --> 00:00:49.285 She's French. 00:00:49.775 --> 00:00:53.825 And I've known Rajan for about 400 years, I think now, which 00:00:53.825 --> 00:00:55.205 is odd because she's only 21. 00:00:55.714 --> 00:01:00.584 But I first met her when I published a book, the Healing Land and it was 00:01:00.584 --> 00:01:06.315 published in French and Rajan came to interview me and she, I realized 00:01:06.315 --> 00:01:09.585 was someone quite similar to me and that she was a journalist who also 00:01:09.585 --> 00:01:11.954 crossed the line into activism. 00:01:12.574 --> 00:01:16.445 And over the course of her career, I've been tracking her. 00:01:16.815 --> 00:01:22.095 She's published all kinds of interesting books, tackling everything from human 00:01:22.095 --> 00:01:28.805 rights to the struggles, even her personal struggles with conception and having 00:01:28.805 --> 00:01:33.135 children and, all sorts of interesting stuff in the arts and all sorts of 00:01:33.135 --> 00:01:36.645 interesting stuff in general culture, and then back to activism, and then 00:01:36.645 --> 00:01:40.185 round the corner again to some other interesting documentary somewhere else. 00:01:40.185 --> 00:01:46.345 And the interesting thing about Rajan is I would say she absolutely epitomizes 00:01:46.345 --> 00:01:52.015 what we're talking about here when we, when we use the word self-actualization, 00:01:52.375 --> 00:01:56.485 this is somebody who has lived life on her own terms, still does. 00:01:56.795 --> 00:02:01.265 And absolutely we can learn a lot from how she does it, even 00:02:01.265 --> 00:02:02.225 if she doesn't quite know. 00:02:02.225 --> 00:02:03.695 I think it might be a bit of a magic thing. 00:02:03.695 --> 00:02:04.355 But let's see. 00:02:04.685 --> 00:02:09.115 So I'm going to turn it over to Rajan, thank you for coming on the show. 00:02:09.415 --> 00:02:14.215 Can you please tell us who you are, what you do, and why you do it? 00:02:15.085 --> 00:02:15.235 Rejane D'Espirac: Okay. 00:02:16.345 --> 00:02:17.185 I've got two minutes. 00:02:18.595 --> 00:02:21.655 Well, my occupation is a, I'm a writer. 00:02:21.685 --> 00:02:22.945 I'm tell a storyteller. 00:02:23.035 --> 00:02:25.615 I will say I'm real storyteller. 00:02:26.095 --> 00:02:29.035 And so I, I started, I, I, I. 00:02:29.730 --> 00:02:32.830 I started as a reporter as a travel reporter. 00:02:33.250 --> 00:02:38.390 Then I met human rights and I get involved into human right activism 00:02:39.049 --> 00:02:40.640 as a writer, as a reporter. 00:02:41.349 --> 00:02:44.409 Then I decided to write books because it was time. 00:02:44.499 --> 00:02:47.349 Then I decided to make films because it was time. 00:02:48.129 --> 00:02:53.209 But then, yes someone tell me that my best talent ends to be upset by 00:02:53.209 --> 00:02:55.609 things and to be moved by things. 00:02:56.149 --> 00:03:02.839 So I guess my line is to be upset and moved by life and to start writing 00:03:02.839 --> 00:03:09.079 about it and try to transmit what I feel and what I learn from things. 00:03:11.179 --> 00:03:11.869 Rupert Isaacson: Interesting. 00:03:12.199 --> 00:03:13.549 Talking about being upset. 00:03:13.609 --> 00:03:19.459 You know, we living in this, when I first met you, social media was not a thing. 00:03:19.729 --> 00:03:21.599 And obviously it's become a thing. 00:03:21.690 --> 00:03:24.719 And the fact that we are having this conversation over 00:03:24.719 --> 00:03:27.539 Zoom is part of social media. 00:03:27.869 --> 00:03:33.929 So generally we are often looking at it as a negative, but the truth 00:03:33.929 --> 00:03:38.310 is, we now to a large degree, all of us make our livings through it. 00:03:38.909 --> 00:03:45.810 However, I do think there's this interesting fine line between how 00:03:45.810 --> 00:03:49.500 it's used and how it's misused. 00:03:50.475 --> 00:03:55.065 And when you use the term upset, that's what made me think about it, because the 00:03:55.065 --> 00:03:59.325 idea of being moved, like feeling a sense of outrage about something or a sense of 00:03:59.325 --> 00:04:04.035 injustice about something and saying or, or noticing pain and suffering really, 00:04:04.275 --> 00:04:09.225 and saying, I would like to do something to ameliorate this pain and suffering. 00:04:09.375 --> 00:04:10.425 That's a very good thing. 00:04:10.945 --> 00:04:12.234 That's a very good motivator. 00:04:12.805 --> 00:04:18.385 As you and I both know, social media sometimes does the opposite, where back 00:04:18.385 --> 00:04:22.914 in the sort of 1960s and seventies and eighties, I guess into the nineties, 00:04:23.425 --> 00:04:28.375 the, the cliche was sex cells. 00:04:29.034 --> 00:04:29.125 Mm-hmm. 00:04:29.185 --> 00:04:34.465 And since social media that has been replaced with anger cells and fear 00:04:34.465 --> 00:04:38.665 cells and anger and fear sell much, much more than fear than sex ever did. 00:04:39.205 --> 00:04:40.915 It's a stronger emotion. 00:04:41.515 --> 00:04:46.345 And unfortunately, as we know this has led to what it's led to. 00:04:47.425 --> 00:04:52.435 So when you say, you know, that feeling of being upset by things, I know that 00:04:52.435 --> 00:04:56.095 you mean it in the traditional way. 00:04:56.095 --> 00:04:56.310 Yeah, of course. 00:04:56.664 --> 00:04:56.815 Yeah. 00:04:56.815 --> 00:04:56.995 Yes. 00:04:57.445 --> 00:05:00.475 Rather than in the modern day misinterpretation of it. 00:05:00.685 --> 00:05:03.595 But it's very interesting that this now comes to mind, isn't it? 00:05:04.135 --> 00:05:04.675 Rejane D'Espirac: Yeah. 00:05:04.735 --> 00:05:05.065 Yes. 00:05:05.095 --> 00:05:05.395 Yes. 00:05:05.395 --> 00:05:06.925 Because it's not the point, but you're right. 00:05:07.025 --> 00:05:11.250 I'm upset because I feel I can see the magic of life about everywhere. 00:05:12.470 --> 00:05:17.660 And when the magic is not seen on, when love is not seen on, when love 00:05:17.660 --> 00:05:20.120 is not respect, that makes me upset. 00:05:21.020 --> 00:05:25.220 So I guess my point, it's always to say, look, this is beautiful. 00:05:25.520 --> 00:05:28.370 Look that there is something precious here. 00:05:28.730 --> 00:05:34.340 Look, you should be, be able to see that the way I see it, and this is why 00:05:34.670 --> 00:05:39.860 I get moved and that I want to transmit something by my writings, by my filming. 00:05:40.160 --> 00:05:42.920 It's always to see the beautiful part of it. 00:05:43.760 --> 00:05:46.250 I've, I have mo I am moved. 00:05:46.370 --> 00:05:50.360 I am upset because it should be so beautiful 00:05:51.080 --> 00:05:51.230 Rupert Isaacson: and 00:05:51.470 --> 00:05:52.160 Rejane D'Espirac: it's not. 00:05:52.700 --> 00:05:56.490 And so of course I'm not upset in the, in the anger way. 00:05:56.850 --> 00:06:02.100 I'm upset in the, whoa, it takes my breath away, it takes my love. 00:06:02.220 --> 00:06:05.460 It, it makes my earth so big. 00:06:06.060 --> 00:06:08.040 I must do something with it. 00:06:08.910 --> 00:06:12.030 This is part of being moved and being upset. 00:06:12.120 --> 00:06:17.700 It's not possible that love can't be there or this is not possible. 00:06:17.880 --> 00:06:21.120 Beauty can't be thin there, something like that. 00:06:21.750 --> 00:06:24.840 Rupert Isaacson: I think the word that you are using here is passion. 00:06:26.010 --> 00:06:30.750 That it, it, it, it, it, it makes you feel impassioned and, and thing 00:06:30.750 --> 00:06:35.145 that passion is so interesting is, what does passion mean really? 00:06:35.255 --> 00:06:38.750 At least in English it, it means to suffer, you know, we often think 00:06:38.750 --> 00:06:43.490 passion is to love greatly or to, but actually that you talk about the passion 00:06:43.490 --> 00:06:47.390 of the Christ, for example, that's Christ suffering on the cross, right? 00:06:47.720 --> 00:06:51.830 So compassion is suffering with, yeah. 00:06:52.170 --> 00:06:57.030 But one cannot suffer with until one knows one's own suffering and 00:06:57.030 --> 00:07:00.300 recognizes the suffering in the world. 00:07:00.390 --> 00:07:02.520 I mean, that's the story of Shar, right? 00:07:02.520 --> 00:07:03.900 That's the story of the Buddha. 00:07:04.510 --> 00:07:09.520 And it seems to me in your work, that's exactly what I recognize. 00:07:09.520 --> 00:07:12.040 It's like Rajan goes out into the world. 00:07:12.040 --> 00:07:16.060 She's like, the young Buddha goes out into the world from, from the palace 00:07:16.150 --> 00:07:18.790 and then she notices, Hey ho, hold on. 00:07:18.970 --> 00:07:20.530 There's people starving over there. 00:07:20.590 --> 00:07:21.400 That's not right. 00:07:21.640 --> 00:07:25.420 And look, there's a bloke over there having to do a poo in the middle of 00:07:25.420 --> 00:07:26.980 the street 'cause he's got no toilet. 00:07:26.980 --> 00:07:29.290 And there's a lady over there having to give birth on the 00:07:29.290 --> 00:07:30.610 street 'cause she's got no bed. 00:07:30.610 --> 00:07:32.110 And hold on a second. 00:07:32.530 --> 00:07:33.820 What's all this malarkey? 00:07:34.090 --> 00:07:35.920 You know, what can we do about this? 00:07:36.280 --> 00:07:38.200 And then off you go, right. 00:07:39.295 --> 00:07:39.715 You're right. 00:07:39.800 --> 00:07:40.160 A beautiful 00:07:40.160 --> 00:07:41.335 Rejane D'Espirac: story, I guess part of it. 00:07:41.395 --> 00:07:42.775 But there is another dimension. 00:07:43.495 --> 00:07:43.645 Go on. 00:07:43.695 --> 00:07:47.055 It's people who do something to go against. 00:07:47.325 --> 00:07:50.445 I mean, I'm very moved by people who do things. 00:07:51.105 --> 00:07:51.195 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:07:51.195 --> 00:07:51.285 And 00:07:51.285 --> 00:07:53.115 Rejane D'Espirac: people who get involved like you. 00:07:53.325 --> 00:07:59.155 That's why I guess this links we have for 400 Euros, it's still there because 00:07:59.155 --> 00:08:01.645 I'm very moved by all you created. 00:08:02.335 --> 00:08:05.845 And it's not only says, okay, that's not fair. 00:08:06.745 --> 00:08:08.335 Says say, oh, what's the solution? 00:08:08.395 --> 00:08:14.845 What can we do very pragmatically to better something even a little bit. 00:08:15.595 --> 00:08:15.625 Rupert Isaacson: Mm. 00:08:15.625 --> 00:08:19.645 Rejane D'Espirac: I'm very moved by people who do stuff and for example, my latest 00:08:19.645 --> 00:08:25.285 documentary film about Bal people, it's not only about Bal situation, it's about 00:08:25.525 --> 00:08:31.100 a free clinic in the contaminated zone that helps people through Yoga and Veda. 00:08:31.100 --> 00:08:34.135 Where op medicine doesn't work anymore. 00:08:34.735 --> 00:08:38.635 It's not only saying, oh, poor people, it's okay. 00:08:38.664 --> 00:08:43.855 Even there, there are people who are able to create solutions that helps people. 00:08:44.665 --> 00:08:45.115 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:08:45.115 --> 00:08:46.285 Talk to us about this film. 00:08:46.285 --> 00:08:47.245 So this film is called Boal. 00:08:48.385 --> 00:08:49.135 Rejane D'Espirac: It's called Sam bna. 00:08:49.135 --> 00:08:53.905 Sam BNA is the name of the free clinic and it means possibility some, 00:08:53.905 --> 00:08:54.505 Rupert Isaacson: but nah. 00:08:54.655 --> 00:08:55.165 Alright. 00:08:55.585 --> 00:08:56.605 What's it about? 00:08:56.965 --> 00:08:58.465 What is this Bow Pal thing? 00:08:58.795 --> 00:08:59.725 Tell us the story. 00:09:00.055 --> 00:09:04.204 Rejane D'Espirac: So you can't remember young girl 40 years ago, the city of 00:09:04.625 --> 00:09:09.315 Bal in India, in the middle of India has been the victim of the worst 00:09:09.585 --> 00:09:11.475 industrial disaster in the world. 00:09:12.015 --> 00:09:12.105 Rupert Isaacson: Okay? 00:09:12.895 --> 00:09:16.525 Rejane D'Espirac: It was what happened, a pesticide factory belonging to a 00:09:16.705 --> 00:09:19.435 American company called Union Carbide. 00:09:19.615 --> 00:09:22.615 At this time, it's do chemical now. 00:09:23.545 --> 00:09:28.975 And there were a, there was a huge leak of a very, very, very, very 00:09:29.125 --> 00:09:36.155 toxic gas during a coal night and the gas spreaded all around the city. 00:09:36.245 --> 00:09:40.775 And it killed like 8,000 people during the night, okay? 00:09:41.555 --> 00:09:52.835 And at the end, it killed 25,000 people, but then 600,000 people paid with 00:09:52.895 --> 00:09:54.935 chronical disease because of the gas. 00:09:56.405 --> 00:10:04.405 And the, and so people still live with chronical disease because what happened 40 00:10:04.405 --> 00:10:12.115 years ago and the factory closed, but the field has not never been decontaminated. 00:10:12.685 --> 00:10:19.575 So people living there are still victim of toxic groundwater and toxic fields. 00:10:19.575 --> 00:10:22.465 And so children are still. 00:10:22.915 --> 00:10:28.485 Are are still born with chronicle disease and malformations and cerebral, 00:10:28.485 --> 00:10:30.555 pasty and all this kind of stuff. 00:10:31.245 --> 00:10:41.095 So yes, we say now that boal is 600,000 victims and one or 200,000 00:10:41.095 --> 00:10:46.555 people living on contaminated ground and without any justice. 00:10:47.305 --> 00:10:53.335 And it's a neverending story till the, the, the factory ground and 00:10:53.335 --> 00:10:55.135 around is not decontaminated. 00:10:55.135 --> 00:11:00.145 But nobody wants to decontaminate, nor the Americans, nor the Indian government. 00:11:00.145 --> 00:11:02.365 No one because it's poor people. 00:11:02.365 --> 00:11:03.235 Nobody cares. 00:11:03.445 --> 00:11:04.915 Rupert Isaacson: How did you come across this story? 00:11:04.915 --> 00:11:05.995 Now that you've reminded me? 00:11:05.995 --> 00:11:08.755 I do remember reading about it, but of course I didn't 00:11:08.755 --> 00:11:10.945 ever read about the true scale. 00:11:11.215 --> 00:11:11.635 Rejane D'Espirac: Yes. 00:11:11.635 --> 00:11:15.080 Because we can remember some of us Yeah. 00:11:15.140 --> 00:11:20.000 Can remember what happened 40 years ago, but we, it's the end of the story, but 00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:21.385 it's just the beginning of the story. 00:11:22.165 --> 00:11:22.465 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:11:22.465 --> 00:11:27.205 Because unlike say Bel, where they just moved everybody out mm-hmm. 00:11:27.815 --> 00:11:30.005 They couldn't move everyone outta an Indian city. 00:11:30.005 --> 00:11:30.365 Right. 00:11:30.995 --> 00:11:33.425 Also, India doesn't operate that way as I know. 00:11:33.425 --> 00:11:34.565 'cause I've lived in India. 00:11:34.565 --> 00:11:36.840 You've lived in India and Yeah, India. 00:11:37.205 --> 00:11:39.005 India has its own, its own rules. 00:11:39.785 --> 00:11:42.875 Rejane D'Espirac: How did you get involved in this political issues, cast issues? 00:11:42.875 --> 00:11:43.745 You've got all of that. 00:11:43.745 --> 00:11:44.120 Yeah, yeah. 00:11:44.315 --> 00:11:44.585 Mix. 00:11:45.485 --> 00:11:46.595 Rupert Isaacson: So how did you get involved? 00:11:46.835 --> 00:11:47.045 Rejane D'Espirac: Yeah. 00:11:47.585 --> 00:11:51.780 Oh, through a writer, so I know our writers can be powerful. 00:11:52.170 --> 00:11:52.260 Rupert Isaacson: Hmm. 00:11:52.360 --> 00:11:57.110 Rejane D'Espirac: Like it was like 15 years ago an English book called Animals 00:11:57.110 --> 00:11:59.490 People has been published in French. 00:12:00.420 --> 00:12:05.540 And the same press rep that asked me to meet you, in fact, okay. 00:12:05.540 --> 00:12:09.920 He asked me to meet this English writer and the guy is called 00:12:10.340 --> 00:12:13.220 Reina and I met RA in Paris. 00:12:13.670 --> 00:12:17.720 And so I write the book, it's about Papa and I met the guy 00:12:17.810 --> 00:12:22.090 and we talked and you know, this kind of, okay, we are connected. 00:12:22.150 --> 00:12:26.350 I dunno it which way, I dunno when, I dunno where, but I'm gonna 00:12:26.350 --> 00:12:27.670 do something about this story. 00:12:27.970 --> 00:12:32.270 And he told me about the free clinic because this was part of 00:12:32.270 --> 00:12:34.910 it and he helped at that time. 00:12:35.150 --> 00:12:39.300 He was creative director in a huge London agency. 00:12:39.930 --> 00:12:47.380 And he created the, the ad in English newspapers that helped the clinic to get 00:12:47.380 --> 00:12:50.070 the money to, for the clinic to be built. 00:12:50.550 --> 00:12:51.840 So he was involved. 00:12:52.080 --> 00:12:54.210 And so Indra told me about Boal. 00:12:54.750 --> 00:12:56.010 He told me that the. 00:12:56.430 --> 00:12:58.140 The disaster was still on. 00:12:58.440 --> 00:13:04.170 And he told me about these people trying to help people through in traditional 00:13:04.170 --> 00:13:08.110 medicine because it was free or cost less. 00:13:08.650 --> 00:13:13.390 And allopathic medicine doesn't work anymore for them because of taking like 00:13:13.780 --> 00:13:16.780 kilos and kilos of medicine for years. 00:13:17.170 --> 00:13:19.990 So, you know, at at the time it doesn't work anymore or it 00:13:19.990 --> 00:13:22.420 creates new kind of problems. 00:13:22.840 --> 00:13:26.800 And so he told me about that like 15 years ago. 00:13:26.800 --> 00:13:32.740 And at that time I knew I will go, I would go, I didn't know where, when, 00:13:32.950 --> 00:13:36.280 when, but I knew I was part of the story. 00:13:36.940 --> 00:13:40.240 And in 2009 it was time. 00:13:40.510 --> 00:13:41.500 So I decided to go. 00:13:41.500 --> 00:13:46.360 I spent a couple of weeks at the clinic and I knew I would do a film 00:13:46.360 --> 00:13:48.550 about it because I deserve a film. 00:13:48.940 --> 00:13:51.460 I deserve to be known and I deserve tools. 00:13:51.460 --> 00:13:55.150 Tools to get funds because it's a free clinic. 00:13:55.180 --> 00:13:58.420 They operate only with individual funds. 00:13:59.230 --> 00:14:03.220 So I wanted to be part of it and create something that can be helpful for them. 00:14:03.910 --> 00:14:04.840 Rupert Isaacson: So tell me, because 00:14:04.840 --> 00:14:07.570 Rejane D'Espirac: meetings, you know, life, my life, it's always 00:14:07.570 --> 00:14:12.250 about meetings and things I didn't know about, but I recognize them. 00:14:12.340 --> 00:14:15.340 This is one of my tenants I recognized at, at what time? 00:14:15.340 --> 00:14:17.260 I say, okay, this is part of my life too. 00:14:17.260 --> 00:14:18.190 I need to go further. 00:14:18.940 --> 00:14:20.170 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, it's interesting what you say. 00:14:20.260 --> 00:14:20.615 I think all. 00:14:22.270 --> 00:14:29.240 All of my, just like you, all of my significant work or anything 00:14:29.240 --> 00:14:32.720 in my life actually, it's all about meetings and conversations. 00:14:33.220 --> 00:14:37.090 And it, it does show, you know, people call us homo sapien 00:14:37.090 --> 00:14:39.340 sapiens, the the thinking ape. 00:14:39.340 --> 00:14:42.970 But I always thought that that's actually not a very good description for us because 00:14:43.210 --> 00:14:45.580 that anything with a brain thinks, right? 00:14:45.580 --> 00:14:48.910 So there's lots of things out there with brains and some things have 00:14:48.910 --> 00:14:51.280 quite a few brains like octopuses. 00:14:51.530 --> 00:14:55.130 What makes us unique is, is this thing, is the larynx. 00:14:55.130 --> 00:14:58.850 We talk, we speak, we are the speaking ape with a storytelling ape. 00:14:59.330 --> 00:15:00.290 That's our thing. 00:15:00.290 --> 00:15:03.650 And it's through stories, and stories come through meetings. 00:15:03.890 --> 00:15:05.925 You can't get a story unless you meet you. 00:15:05.930 --> 00:15:07.400 You can do it virtually. 00:15:07.520 --> 00:15:09.020 You can meet a story in a book. 00:15:09.290 --> 00:15:10.550 You can meet a story in a film. 00:15:10.550 --> 00:15:10.940 Yes. 00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:11.210 Yeah. 00:15:11.210 --> 00:15:11.805 That's the first step. 00:15:11.805 --> 00:15:12.005 Yeah. 00:15:12.050 --> 00:15:17.810 But that usually happens because somebody else met in person and 00:15:17.810 --> 00:15:19.430 then transmitted that story. 00:15:20.210 --> 00:15:21.620 So I think you're absolutely right. 00:15:21.620 --> 00:15:22.250 And if, if we. 00:15:22.850 --> 00:15:26.750 Looking for, like what can we learn from an interview like this? 00:15:26.750 --> 00:15:31.010 I think one of the things immediately it's worth looking at if you are 00:15:31.430 --> 00:15:35.540 listening to this or watching this, is have conversations, have 00:15:35.540 --> 00:15:37.640 lots and lots of conversations. 00:15:37.790 --> 00:15:42.320 They're never wasted time because conversations lead to other conversations 00:15:42.320 --> 00:15:46.040 that lead to other conversations, which will lead to the conversation 00:15:46.340 --> 00:15:48.020 that makes the thing happen. 00:15:48.020 --> 00:15:48.410 Yeah, 00:15:48.860 --> 00:15:53.270 Rejane D'Espirac: and more and more I want to understand what I'm working, because 00:15:53.270 --> 00:15:59.300 I, I do this work for like 20, 25 years and now I've got enough to say, okay, 00:15:59.630 --> 00:16:05.090 after 25 years of writing and meetings, what I'm writing about, it's not clear 00:16:05.090 --> 00:16:13.460 for me, but I think at the end it's relationship is there a way we relate with 00:16:13.640 --> 00:16:15.890 ourself, with the others, with nature. 00:16:16.490 --> 00:16:20.930 So I understood the relationship is a key factor. 00:16:21.320 --> 00:16:24.440 It was not the case at the beginning because I'm a little bit, you know, 00:16:24.470 --> 00:16:29.690 shy and always kind of observing person, but a bit away from the scene. 00:16:30.050 --> 00:16:35.960 And more and more I understand that I do that work and because this 00:16:35.960 --> 00:16:41.150 is a way to get related, related to people related to the world. 00:16:41.630 --> 00:16:47.510 And in fact everything is relationship and maybe my job now it's that, 00:16:47.540 --> 00:16:51.140 okay, look, how can we relate. 00:16:52.730 --> 00:17:00.740 With someone or with nature, with more on, on a sensitive way or on a more 00:17:00.740 --> 00:17:04.130 lovely way or the quality of relationship. 00:17:04.460 --> 00:17:04.880 Yes. 00:17:05.270 --> 00:17:06.770 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I agree. 00:17:07.160 --> 00:17:09.680 Listen, I need to know more about the story, BOPA. 00:17:10.010 --> 00:17:10.130 Rejane D'Espirac: Mm-hmm. 00:17:10.220 --> 00:17:14.720 Rupert Isaacson: So this is, as you say, a story about multiple relationships. 00:17:15.080 --> 00:17:15.170 Mm-hmm. 00:17:15.620 --> 00:17:20.810 And the healing power of relationship because that free clinic coming in at a 00:17:20.810 --> 00:17:27.560 crucial time must have come about because of conversations and relationships. 00:17:27.560 --> 00:17:29.450 It, it's the only way it could have happened. 00:17:29.450 --> 00:17:29.660 Right. 00:17:29.960 --> 00:17:33.200 But so, so tell me how did it happen? 00:17:33.440 --> 00:17:34.910 And a couple of other things. 00:17:35.180 --> 00:17:39.980 Not everybody listening to this or watching this will know what a Aveda is. 00:17:39.985 --> 00:17:40.235 Okay? 00:17:40.235 --> 00:17:40.475 Sure. 00:17:40.700 --> 00:17:41.180 Okay. 00:17:41.540 --> 00:17:51.030 Not everybody will know why it could work in some cases better than you're 00:17:51.030 --> 00:17:53.040 using the word allopathic medicine. 00:17:53.220 --> 00:17:56.100 If people are not familiar with that word. 00:17:56.100 --> 00:17:58.845 It means the medicine that you get when you go to see your Dr. 00:17:58.845 --> 00:17:59.910 Rejane D'Espirac: West, Western Medicine. 00:17:59.940 --> 00:18:00.210 Yeah. 00:18:00.450 --> 00:18:01.500 Rupert Isaacson: When you go to the hospital. 00:18:01.650 --> 00:18:01.830 Rejane D'Espirac: Mm-hmm. 00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:06.450 Rupert Isaacson: So it would be possible to look at a big disaster like that 00:18:06.450 --> 00:18:08.940 where everyone is all messed up. 00:18:08.945 --> 00:18:09.215 Mm-hmm. 00:18:09.900 --> 00:18:14.970 And say, well, obviously we need, you know, medicine er in there. 00:18:14.970 --> 00:18:17.580 We need the doctors to go in, we need this, we need that. 00:18:18.690 --> 00:18:26.280 And then why do we need these funny blokes who are just like quacks, 00:18:26.280 --> 00:18:29.760 who, there's not real medicine that's just like hippie stuff. 00:18:29.765 --> 00:18:30.105 Mm-hmm. 00:18:30.690 --> 00:18:38.910 Why would that be effective and how did it get going? 00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:40.800 Yeah. 00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:45.960 Why did this free clinic just came out of nowhere and I don't think so. 00:18:45.960 --> 00:18:49.650 So we need to know that story and you need to educate us a bit. 00:18:49.740 --> 00:18:51.240 What is Ayurveda? 00:18:51.750 --> 00:18:52.110 Rejane D'Espirac: Oh, sure. 00:18:52.470 --> 00:18:52.710 Okay. 00:18:52.710 --> 00:18:53.910 Let's start from the beginning. 00:18:53.910 --> 00:18:55.200 Yeah, of course. 00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:59.190 Western medicine, our medicine is a beautiful medicine for 00:18:59.190 --> 00:19:02.070 emergency and for bubble people. 00:19:02.070 --> 00:19:08.640 It, it has been completely useful for 10 years from the, the accident was in 1984, 00:19:08.700 --> 00:19:12.600 so for 10 years they took normal medicine. 00:19:12.630 --> 00:19:17.490 They took a lot of antibiotics psychotropic medicine because they've got 00:19:17.490 --> 00:19:19.400 like A-P-T-S-D, you know, this kind of 00:19:19.400 --> 00:19:19.640 Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm. 00:19:20.450 --> 00:19:23.830 Rejane D'Espirac: And so they took, but they took a lot because the, the 00:19:23.830 --> 00:19:26.950 pain they had because of the gas was. 00:19:28.300 --> 00:19:29.080 Big, big, big. 00:19:29.080 --> 00:19:34.240 So at the end, after 10 years the guy who created the clinic, and I need to talk 00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:35.920 about him because he's very important. 00:19:36.340 --> 00:19:36.520 Rupert Isaacson: Please do. 00:19:36.520 --> 00:19:36.820 Yeah. 00:19:36.825 --> 00:19:36.905 He, 00:19:36.940 --> 00:19:41.140 Rejane D'Espirac: he discovered that people were taking like 30 kilos, 40 00:19:41.140 --> 00:19:47.305 kilos of western medicine, of antibiotics, an anxiety, anti antibiotics and all. 00:19:47.860 --> 00:19:48.220 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:19:48.310 --> 00:19:48.460 But 00:19:48.700 --> 00:19:52.240 Rejane D'Espirac: per year, so 30, 40 kilos per year. 00:19:52.330 --> 00:19:53.020 It's a lot. 00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:53.650 Yeah. 00:19:54.220 --> 00:19:54.730 Rupert Isaacson: Yes. 00:19:54.970 --> 00:19:58.990 They were taking themselves 30 or 40 kilos. 00:19:58.990 --> 00:20:02.380 I mean, so if you translate that into American English or English. 00:20:02.440 --> 00:20:03.310 English, yeah. 00:20:03.400 --> 00:20:07.740 That's 60 to 70 pounds of medicine 00:20:07.980 --> 00:20:08.250 Rejane D'Espirac: Yes. 00:20:08.375 --> 00:20:09.115 Steroids in one person per year. 00:20:10.110 --> 00:20:10.380 Yeah. 00:20:10.620 --> 00:20:11.070 Rupert Isaacson: That's a lot. 00:20:11.340 --> 00:20:11.640 Yeah. 00:20:11.940 --> 00:20:15.300 Rejane D'Espirac: Because they've got breathing disorders, they've got any kind 00:20:15.300 --> 00:20:17.700 of pain you can imagine they've got and 00:20:17.730 --> 00:20:18.300 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:20:18.300 --> 00:20:21.860 Rejane D'Espirac: Especially with respiratory organs because it's, they have 00:20:21.860 --> 00:20:24.770 been affected by very, very toxic gas. 00:20:24.770 --> 00:20:31.570 So, so yes, but at the end, after 10 years of taking ki kilos and kilos of medicine 00:20:32.110 --> 00:20:37.280 it creates I dunno how to say that in this kind of your body is is getting 00:20:37.280 --> 00:20:39.530 used so it's not effective anymore. 00:20:40.850 --> 00:20:40.880 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:41.150 Yes. 00:20:41.360 --> 00:20:42.560 Builds up a resistance. 00:20:42.740 --> 00:20:43.520 Rejane D'Espirac: Yeah, absolutely. 00:20:44.120 --> 00:20:44.270 Okay. 00:20:44.270 --> 00:20:49.550 And or it can create something else like your kinase doesn't support it anymore. 00:20:49.625 --> 00:20:49.715 Right. 00:20:50.555 --> 00:20:54.515 So you've got kidney disease because you've taken too more, 00:20:54.755 --> 00:20:56.045 too much me, too many medicine. 00:20:56.050 --> 00:20:56.250 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:20:56.250 --> 00:20:57.330 Side effects effectively. 00:20:57.330 --> 00:20:57.530 Yeah. 00:20:57.535 --> 00:20:57.545 Yeah. 00:20:57.725 --> 00:20:58.475 Rejane D'Espirac: The side effects. 00:20:58.475 --> 00:20:58.745 Yeah. 00:20:59.315 --> 00:21:02.675 So this guy, so let's talk about this guy. 00:21:02.735 --> 00:21:07.865 His name is Sengi and the specific part, but this guy is 00:21:07.865 --> 00:21:11.340 not from Boal and he's an Indian. 00:21:11.400 --> 00:21:14.580 He is from the a past cast in India. 00:21:14.580 --> 00:21:15.345 He is a Braman. 00:21:15.445 --> 00:21:15.865 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:21:16.125 --> 00:21:16.345 And 00:21:16.345 --> 00:21:20.770 Rejane D'Espirac: he was preparing a PhD in engineering when Boal happened. 00:21:21.430 --> 00:21:25.690 But he was quite an activist already, and he was helping farmers 00:21:25.870 --> 00:21:27.640 in the place where he was living. 00:21:27.640 --> 00:21:27.730 Mm-hmm. 00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:28.270 Rupert Isaacson: So he 00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:31.840 Rejane D'Espirac: decided to take a train Toal the day after the disaster. 00:21:32.410 --> 00:21:36.010 I guess he's the only guy in the planet to take a train to a 00:21:36.370 --> 00:21:38.590 disaster place after the disaster. 00:21:39.190 --> 00:21:39.640 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:21:39.820 --> 00:21:42.400 Rejane D'Espirac: So he, he came there to give an help. 00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:43.600 He didn't know. 00:21:43.600 --> 00:21:44.080 Oh. 00:21:44.170 --> 00:21:49.330 But as he was very educated and very clever, he started to organize 00:21:49.750 --> 00:21:53.860 the rights of the victims and to try to help them on this way. 00:21:54.130 --> 00:21:59.530 And more specifically about the health rights, what can be done to save them. 00:21:59.890 --> 00:22:03.820 And so he was, he get involved and he never left. 00:22:04.300 --> 00:22:04.360 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:22:04.360 --> 00:22:04.480 He's 00:22:04.840 --> 00:22:08.200 Rejane D'Espirac: living in Bal for 40 years and he never left. 00:22:09.445 --> 00:22:11.515 So he was involved in 10 years. 00:22:11.565 --> 00:22:15.735 After the disaster, he discovered people were taking so many medicine 00:22:16.095 --> 00:22:17.595 and it was not effective anymore. 00:22:17.595 --> 00:22:22.155 So he went to see the medical authorities and says, okay, what's next? 00:22:22.155 --> 00:22:23.445 What can we do now? 00:22:23.625 --> 00:22:26.295 And doctor says, we can't do anything more. 00:22:26.715 --> 00:22:27.645 It's, it's over. 00:22:28.095 --> 00:22:28.935 We can't do more. 00:22:30.135 --> 00:22:34.005 And but this is a kind of guy, you know, this kind of guy. 00:22:34.335 --> 00:22:38.085 You, you can't say such, you, you can't do anything else. 00:22:38.265 --> 00:22:38.865 It's over. 00:22:39.615 --> 00:22:45.195 So he starts singing and he is from a Brahman family where a plant 00:22:45.195 --> 00:22:47.345 medicine he's quite well known. 00:22:47.735 --> 00:22:52.385 And in his family, his father, who was a yoga practitioner and his 00:22:52.385 --> 00:22:57.515 mother was, and grandmother, were very educated with plant medicine. 00:22:57.515 --> 00:23:02.705 So he knew, so he decided to make a test. 00:23:02.975 --> 00:23:10.145 So he tried with a few victims, and then he decided to send them to four 00:23:10.145 --> 00:23:12.665 victims, two children, two adults. 00:23:12.665 --> 00:23:18.335 They, he sent them to Kerala, which is a, a state in India, the southwest 00:23:18.335 --> 00:23:22.145 of India, which is specialized in what is called Ayurveda. 00:23:22.475 --> 00:23:26.615 And Ayurveda is one of Indi in Indian traditional medicine. 00:23:27.455 --> 00:23:31.625 And it's mostly based on detoxification procedures. 00:23:32.900 --> 00:23:38.240 So it's a detox process and detox through plans and any kind of 00:23:38.240 --> 00:23:42.710 detox procedures like message or steaming and stuff like that. 00:23:43.880 --> 00:23:49.460 And so they tried and he discovered when, when the, the, the four victims came back 00:23:49.460 --> 00:23:55.550 from Carla, Carla for one month after the, their situation was quite better. 00:23:56.030 --> 00:23:59.990 So I decided to create the clinic from scratch with this vent nutrition. 00:24:00.890 --> 00:24:05.530 And and also because at that time he's been evolved in a manifestation and he has 00:24:05.530 --> 00:24:08.410 been beaten by police, very badly beaten. 00:24:09.100 --> 00:24:14.340 And he went to the hospital just to get a checkup and to be able to sue 00:24:14.580 --> 00:24:16.420 police because of what happened. 00:24:17.050 --> 00:24:21.520 And the doctor said, so, okay, you, you are badly injured and you're gonna, 00:24:21.580 --> 00:24:25.660 you have to stay for one month in the hospital and you will have side effects. 00:24:26.650 --> 00:24:30.690 But he was the cleaning at the he was building the clinic, so he said, 00:24:30.690 --> 00:24:32.220 did not to stay at the hospital. 00:24:32.280 --> 00:24:36.810 And the people at the clinic says, okay, we're gonna prepare something 00:24:36.810 --> 00:24:41.970 with Curcuma and Vera and cook it for you, and you will have to pass it on 00:24:41.970 --> 00:24:44.430 your body for 10 days and you will see. 00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:46.590 And after 10 days, it was better. 00:24:47.430 --> 00:24:50.040 So I said, okay, there is something I, I should go. 00:24:50.715 --> 00:24:55.785 And for yoga, he had this little bit of knowledge from his childhood, but 00:24:55.785 --> 00:25:00.825 he went to Beal to know more, to meet some yoga teachers, really advanced yoga 00:25:00.825 --> 00:25:06.465 teachers, and to understand, oh, yoga can be a therapy, not on the leisure part. 00:25:06.855 --> 00:25:13.495 More on the very specifically part of helping people from disease with yoga. 00:25:14.035 --> 00:25:16.645 And he came back with the knowledge and he created the clinic from 00:25:16.645 --> 00:25:21.415 scratch and from 30 years now they're documenting what they're doing. 00:25:21.865 --> 00:25:27.265 So they've got proof and they can, they have published articles 00:25:27.265 --> 00:25:29.235 in science magazines and all. 00:25:29.685 --> 00:25:34.815 And so they can explain these people are full of chemicals because of 00:25:34.815 --> 00:25:42.105 the gas, because of the, the DNA of people have been damaged, so the new 00:25:42.105 --> 00:25:45.475 generations are are sick too and whatever. 00:25:45.745 --> 00:25:51.945 So, these people are full of chemicals, so giving them more chemicals. 00:25:52.515 --> 00:25:55.635 Is it, it's not the, it's pointless. 00:25:55.685 --> 00:26:00.255 So the idea with Ayurveda, which is most of all detoxification 00:26:00.255 --> 00:26:02.145 procedures, is to detox them, 00:26:02.550 --> 00:26:02.840 Rupert Isaacson: okay. 00:26:02.840 --> 00:26:02.850 For 00:26:03.225 --> 00:26:06.395 Rejane D'Espirac: all the, the, the the chemicals they have inside. 00:26:06.845 --> 00:26:12.065 And it works also for emotional parts because most of them, the 00:26:12.065 --> 00:26:15.605 survivors, they are still very shocked about what happened. 00:26:15.935 --> 00:26:16.955 And they lost a lot. 00:26:17.005 --> 00:26:18.715 They lost their jobs. 00:26:18.745 --> 00:26:20.425 They lost their relatives. 00:26:20.425 --> 00:26:21.325 They have lost a lot. 00:26:21.325 --> 00:26:21.565 A lot. 00:26:21.565 --> 00:26:23.815 And they lost, they lost their health. 00:26:23.905 --> 00:26:28.165 So, and without any compensation, well, what they receive from 00:26:28.165 --> 00:26:32.035 the American company is $500 00:26:33.055 --> 00:26:33.565 Rupert Isaacson: per person. 00:26:33.985 --> 00:26:34.465 Rejane D'Espirac: Yes. 00:26:34.550 --> 00:26:35.485 For, for life. 00:26:35.965 --> 00:26:37.765 Not for your by, for. 00:26:37.765 --> 00:26:38.455 Well, that's it. 00:26:38.995 --> 00:26:39.985 Take 500. 00:26:39.985 --> 00:26:41.850 I was just, while you were talking, I was just, 00:26:42.010 --> 00:26:45.805 Rupert Isaacson: I was just doing a little Google on, on the thing and Yeah. 00:26:45.835 --> 00:26:50.455 Seeing how little accountability, of course there was. 00:26:50.725 --> 00:26:52.555 I've got some interesting questions here. 00:26:52.735 --> 00:26:52.915 Yeah. 00:26:53.205 --> 00:26:53.595 Okay. 00:26:53.595 --> 00:27:00.835 The first thing is even though this was largely a disaster that negatively 00:27:00.835 --> 00:27:08.095 affected mostly poor and lower middle class people, there must have been a 00:27:08.095 --> 00:27:12.355 certain number of wealthy and upper class people affected by it too. 00:27:13.690 --> 00:27:15.610 And if not, why not? 00:27:16.060 --> 00:27:16.510 Okay. 00:27:16.630 --> 00:27:21.670 Was it because the gas only settled in certain areas? 00:27:22.500 --> 00:27:25.530 Low lying areas and all the rich people are up on the hill? 00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:26.490 Is that why? 00:27:26.580 --> 00:27:27.510 Exactly, yes. 00:27:27.840 --> 00:27:32.350 That's because, you know, in America there's a lot of not dissimilar 00:27:32.650 --> 00:27:34.630 type of things that happen. 00:27:34.900 --> 00:27:41.530 And usually the people that get affected are low income people who are living 00:27:41.710 --> 00:27:44.620 in low altitude, low lying areas. 00:27:45.180 --> 00:27:50.370 And yeah, it frequently doesn't get the bosses, the company bosses, because 00:27:50.370 --> 00:27:51.870 they live on a hill and there's wind. 00:27:52.050 --> 00:27:52.440 Okay. 00:27:52.800 --> 00:27:53.970 So that was one question. 00:27:54.150 --> 00:27:59.100 The second question is I know something about detox and what in 00:27:59.100 --> 00:28:01.170 the autism world we call collation. 00:28:01.500 --> 00:28:01.590 Mm-hmm. 00:28:01.920 --> 00:28:08.135 Because when my son was going through his most difficult period with autism mm-hmm. 00:28:08.215 --> 00:28:12.270 He had a lot of heavy metals in his body that we had to get out 00:28:12.570 --> 00:28:20.610 and he lacked a naturally produced chemical called glutathione. 00:28:21.390 --> 00:28:26.640 And in fact, a lot of people with autism do lack or, or have an 00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:29.010 impaired ability to make glutathione. 00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:31.410 And glutathione is one of our natural. 00:28:32.205 --> 00:28:32.745 Collators. 00:28:32.955 --> 00:28:38.385 So we had to give him collating agents like zinc and so forth, to which the 00:28:38.385 --> 00:28:41.145 heavy metals would bind within the body. 00:28:41.145 --> 00:28:42.315 And then you ship them out. 00:28:42.315 --> 00:28:44.925 You piss them out, you sweat them out, you get them out in 00:28:44.925 --> 00:28:45.885 your hair, all these things. 00:28:45.915 --> 00:28:48.255 Okay, now that's one person. 00:28:49.305 --> 00:28:55.415 How do you do that with hundreds of thousands of people from one 00:28:55.415 --> 00:29:00.935 clinic that's going to take several forest worths of, of plants. 00:29:00.995 --> 00:29:01.535 Right. 00:29:01.965 --> 00:29:05.685 You talk about the volume of the medications that these people 00:29:05.685 --> 00:29:11.535 were taking, the volume of plants needed similarly is huge. 00:29:11.835 --> 00:29:18.765 How do you serve that number of people with that amount of plants? 00:29:18.795 --> 00:29:23.745 It's, you know, it's one thing to say it, it's another thing to do it. 00:29:23.925 --> 00:29:24.825 How did that happen? 00:29:24.990 --> 00:29:28.185 Rejane D'Espirac: Okay, so I'm gonna start, I've got a few questions. 00:29:28.635 --> 00:29:30.675 First I finish with what I've created. 00:29:30.735 --> 00:29:32.445 We talk about Ayurveda as you told. 00:29:32.445 --> 00:29:32.835 It's a 00:29:32.955 --> 00:29:33.285 Rupert Isaacson: okay. 00:29:33.495 --> 00:29:33.765 Rejane D'Espirac: Yes. 00:29:34.245 --> 00:29:36.930 And yoga is the second part, okay? 00:29:36.930 --> 00:29:39.345 Because yoga boosts the immune system. 00:29:39.855 --> 00:29:44.835 They've got very low immune system and that's why they keep being sick and sick 00:29:44.835 --> 00:29:50.115 and sick because the gas and the effects of the gas has lower their immune system. 00:29:50.385 --> 00:29:54.135 And so yoga helps them to boost the immune system. 00:29:54.135 --> 00:29:56.290 So it's both part, it goes together. 00:29:56.430 --> 00:29:56.650 All 00:29:56.740 --> 00:29:58.365 Rupert Isaacson: yogas or certain forms of yoga. 00:29:59.010 --> 00:29:59.970 Rejane D'Espirac: It's very simple. 00:30:00.105 --> 00:30:02.070 Yogas, it's only a few. 00:30:02.100 --> 00:30:07.180 They, they do like a few has and us, but very few some breathing process 00:30:07.180 --> 00:30:11.590 because they've got some, these breathing problems and a little bit of relaxation. 00:30:11.890 --> 00:30:14.810 But these guys they're mostly Muslim. 00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:20.360 They have no knowledge of, you know, yoga and Ayurveda is braman things. 00:30:20.365 --> 00:30:21.685 This is a Hindu thing, right? 00:30:21.905 --> 00:30:22.245 Not a 00:30:22.245 --> 00:30:22.645 Rupert Isaacson: Muslim thing. 00:30:22.785 --> 00:30:26.060 Rejane D'Espirac: Normal Indian people, I mean, low class Indian people, 00:30:26.060 --> 00:30:31.100 they don't dunno, nothing about that we see is a part of cultural Indian 00:30:31.100 --> 00:30:32.780 culture, but it's not in a way. 00:30:32.780 --> 00:30:32.810 I 00:30:32.955 --> 00:30:33.075 Rupert Isaacson: agree. 00:30:33.415 --> 00:30:34.680 Rejane D'Espirac: So it's, yeah, it's the upper classes, 00:30:34.830 --> 00:30:35.920 Rupert Isaacson: it's not for the lower classes. 00:30:36.030 --> 00:30:36.320 It's 00:30:36.320 --> 00:30:38.815 Rejane D'Espirac: smart and low cast into people. 00:30:38.820 --> 00:30:40.315 They, they arrive at the clinic. 00:30:40.315 --> 00:30:41.875 They know nothing about Ayurveda. 00:30:42.175 --> 00:30:42.205 Okay. 00:30:42.205 --> 00:30:43.615 They know nothing about yoga. 00:30:43.735 --> 00:30:47.845 And most of them now, and mostly women, they are, you know, with all 00:30:47.845 --> 00:30:49.525 they covered kind of stuff and Yeah. 00:30:49.525 --> 00:30:49.885 Rupert Isaacson: Workers. 00:30:49.890 --> 00:30:49.920 Yeah. 00:30:50.305 --> 00:30:54.505 Rejane D'Espirac: And so the, the yoga therapist has to go very slow. 00:30:54.505 --> 00:31:00.445 So she only gives two, three SNS movements to say, to, to, to 00:31:00.445 --> 00:31:02.845 practice at home or at the clinic. 00:31:03.115 --> 00:31:08.185 And two weeks after people come back and she can, okay, you 00:31:08.185 --> 00:31:10.255 manage so we can something else. 00:31:10.435 --> 00:31:12.175 But she's very simple yoga. 00:31:12.745 --> 00:31:17.005 It just to create an habit to take care of yourself so we can go back to care. 00:31:17.245 --> 00:31:22.075 Because at the clinic it, it works because of yoga, because of a veta. 00:31:22.075 --> 00:31:24.715 But it works mostly because of care. 00:31:25.615 --> 00:31:28.015 These people are been completely abandoned. 00:31:28.915 --> 00:31:29.455 Okay. 00:31:29.995 --> 00:31:34.435 You've, you have been completely, your, your life has been completely 00:31:34.435 --> 00:31:36.895 broken by gas, but nobody cares. 00:31:36.985 --> 00:31:37.345 Okay. 00:31:37.345 --> 00:31:38.065 Farewell. 00:31:38.665 --> 00:31:40.195 And as a clinic, they care. 00:31:40.885 --> 00:31:41.215 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:31:41.695 --> 00:31:46.255 Rejane D'Espirac: And it's almost 50% of treatment just being listened. 00:31:47.335 --> 00:31:52.105 And to, and to answer your question about plans, first things 00:31:52.105 --> 00:31:53.635 they create is it's a garden. 00:31:55.195 --> 00:32:00.745 So for me as a, as a documentary maker, you've got something very visual. 00:32:00.805 --> 00:32:06.145 We are 500 meters from the, from the factory, which is still there. 00:32:06.175 --> 00:32:07.795 You know, this rotten factory. 00:32:09.055 --> 00:32:12.915 And 5500, 500 meters far from there. 00:32:13.155 --> 00:32:18.665 You've got a garden and a garden of plant medicines and medic medical plants. 00:32:19.145 --> 00:32:22.955 And so they've got their own garden and they created their own medicine 00:32:23.525 --> 00:32:28.355 and they've got a little factory of creating Ayurvedic medicine there. 00:32:29.225 --> 00:32:34.595 So this is way, the way they manage to give plants to people 00:32:34.595 --> 00:32:36.755 because they cultivate plants. 00:32:37.445 --> 00:32:38.015 Rupert Isaacson: Indeed. 00:32:38.015 --> 00:32:39.755 But this is a lot of people. 00:32:39.755 --> 00:32:41.555 This is not, it's one neighborhood. 00:32:41.555 --> 00:32:42.185 This is, 00:32:42.455 --> 00:32:42.725 Rejane D'Espirac: yes. 00:32:42.725 --> 00:32:46.175 But you've got six, 600,000 people. 00:32:46.175 --> 00:32:49.745 It is a, it's the number of victim at the wall for 40 years. 00:32:50.195 --> 00:32:52.385 Now we can consider there are like. 00:32:52.775 --> 00:32:55.685 100,000 people are concerned. 00:32:56.765 --> 00:33:01.435 And the people you can help, you mean, and people with clinical disease, they 00:33:01.435 --> 00:33:03.235 come to the clinic and that's the clinic. 00:33:03.235 --> 00:33:12.205 They say they follow like 30,000 people in a way, but for, for 30 years. 00:33:12.685 --> 00:33:18.985 So at the clinic, every day they can see like 61, 60 people, 100 people a day. 00:33:19.795 --> 00:33:23.455 Rupert Isaacson: I'm still really impressed that, that a 00:33:23.455 --> 00:33:26.125 garden can scale to that degree. 00:33:26.425 --> 00:33:29.605 It shows how much can be done with small resources. 00:33:29.605 --> 00:33:29.875 Really 00:33:30.565 --> 00:33:31.045 Rejane D'Espirac: they do. 00:33:31.045 --> 00:33:34.795 This is, they do with small resources, they have no choice, you know? 00:33:34.825 --> 00:33:35.095 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:33:35.335 --> 00:33:40.095 Rejane D'Espirac: And they, you've got one yoga therapist, two Ayurvedic doctors. 00:33:40.455 --> 00:33:45.855 There is, they are not against, he, you have an allopath doctor coming too. 00:33:46.335 --> 00:33:50.575 And they used to have other stuff, but because of cost, they, they have 00:33:50.575 --> 00:33:54.145 to reduce their but yes, they did it. 00:33:54.235 --> 00:34:00.445 They do it even if they do it small, but they do it and they create 00:34:00.565 --> 00:34:04.855 protocols that can be helpful for us too, because of back pain, because of 00:34:04.855 --> 00:34:07.645 psoriasis, because of breast problems. 00:34:08.105 --> 00:34:11.555 That boal is kind of, you know, big mirror of 00:34:11.605 --> 00:34:12.310 Rupert Isaacson: a bit of a laboratory 00:34:12.610 --> 00:34:13.645 Rejane D'Espirac: of our society. 00:34:13.960 --> 00:34:18.550 But it's what, but I, I'm just try to, a book, we will be published 00:34:18.550 --> 00:34:21.100 next year about boal today. 00:34:21.760 --> 00:34:26.530 And in a way it's not about boal, it's about all of us, you know, living 00:34:26.650 --> 00:34:29.050 in contaminated zone on another. 00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:29.830 Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely. 00:34:30.730 --> 00:34:36.460 Rejane D'Espirac: But this, this is a, just a thinking about what will help 00:34:36.460 --> 00:34:40.630 us in the future if we have to live in this kind of contaminated zone. 00:34:41.140 --> 00:34:41.410 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:34:41.410 --> 00:34:41.420 And 00:34:41.420 --> 00:34:44.380 Rejane D'Espirac: the answer is care and be, here's a couple 00:34:44.380 --> 00:34:46.280 Rupert Isaacson: of questions then about yourself. 00:34:46.550 --> 00:34:48.925 You obviously have spent quite a lot of time in Bopa. 00:34:48.925 --> 00:34:48.935 Yeah. 00:34:49.010 --> 00:34:49.340 Yeah. 00:34:50.420 --> 00:34:54.650 How do you stay healthy because you are breathing in and drink, you know? 00:34:54.650 --> 00:34:54.800 Well, my 00:34:54.925 --> 00:34:55.565 Rejane D'Espirac: breathing is okay. 00:34:55.790 --> 00:34:57.140 You know, I don't live there. 00:34:57.190 --> 00:34:59.590 So I don't drink the contaminated water. 00:34:59.900 --> 00:35:00.650 I can 00:35:00.920 --> 00:35:03.500 Rupert Isaacson: You are to some degree eating foods from the area. 00:35:03.950 --> 00:35:04.190 Yeah. 00:35:04.880 --> 00:35:05.240 Rejane D'Espirac: That's it. 00:35:05.240 --> 00:35:05.565 It's okay. 00:35:05.945 --> 00:35:06.525 And mm-hmm. 00:35:06.920 --> 00:35:10.040 I don't live for your, you know, the, the problem is that people 00:35:10.040 --> 00:35:15.590 living there day after day for 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, 40 years. 00:35:15.890 --> 00:35:18.680 Rupert Isaacson: My, my question was going to be do, have you taken 00:35:18.680 --> 00:35:27.650 practices from being in Boal that were perhaps self-care detox to look after 00:35:27.650 --> 00:35:32.390 yourself while being in a Bo pal, and now you use those now that you are 00:35:32.390 --> 00:35:37.460 living in polluted old Paris, or, yeah. 00:35:39.165 --> 00:35:42.345 Could you do stuff there to keep yourself healthy that you've 00:35:42.345 --> 00:35:43.695 now brought home, basically? 00:35:44.125 --> 00:35:46.135 And what tips can you give us? 00:35:47.600 --> 00:35:50.305 Rejane D'Espirac: I, I, I, I guess what I learned, I didn't learn it from 00:35:50.305 --> 00:35:56.545 Al because yoga and I Veda as well, well, came to my life earlier mm-hmm. 00:35:57.055 --> 00:35:59.995 For other reasons, but I learned a lot from them. 00:36:00.505 --> 00:36:03.285 And I would say it's a holistic approach. 00:36:03.315 --> 00:36:10.275 The what I, well, what I, what I, it's in a way I learned that everything is 00:36:10.275 --> 00:36:16.085 healing and most of all the quality of relationship we have to everything to what 00:36:16.085 --> 00:36:23.135 we eat, to people we have around us, and the kindness we can put in everything. 00:36:24.125 --> 00:36:32.205 I think my main lesson, lesson from Boal is caring for people and just the way 00:36:34.905 --> 00:36:38.655 when you listen to people and when you try to understand who he is and 00:36:38.655 --> 00:36:44.205 why he is like that you are gonna give him the power to heal himself. 00:36:45.555 --> 00:36:50.895 And that's what Samba Popal do in a way, because as you say, it's a very 00:36:50.895 --> 00:36:53.415 small clinic and they do with very red. 00:36:54.630 --> 00:36:58.710 Means and tools, but they give people attention. 00:36:59.400 --> 00:37:04.200 And when they give people attention and the small tools to take care of 00:37:04.200 --> 00:37:11.820 themself, when you, when you teach someone to breathe like twice a day 00:37:11.910 --> 00:37:18.930 or to do some very simple movements twice a day, you give him the power 00:37:18.930 --> 00:37:21.240 to take care of himself or herself. 00:37:21.630 --> 00:37:26.370 And that's a lot for people who have been considered like, cheat for years. 00:37:26.700 --> 00:37:27.060 Rupert Isaacson: Hmm. 00:37:27.330 --> 00:37:31.920 Rejane D'Espirac: Because suddenly they take care of themself and they get energy 00:37:31.920 --> 00:37:39.450 to do something better for their house maybe, or the way they, the job they do or 00:37:39.450 --> 00:37:41.790 the way they interact with their children. 00:37:42.090 --> 00:37:44.340 It's, it's just giving power back. 00:37:45.480 --> 00:37:46.620 Rupert Isaacson: This is really interesting. 00:37:46.720 --> 00:37:55.150 I was just thinking about the concept of self-healing, where if you have a part 00:37:55.150 --> 00:37:59.440 of yourself that you feel needs healing, you give it attention in some way. 00:37:59.710 --> 00:38:03.460 Not negative attention, like you stupid thing. 00:38:03.460 --> 00:38:04.330 You shouldn't be like that. 00:38:04.780 --> 00:38:05.165 Rejane D'Espirac: Not care. 00:38:05.235 --> 00:38:05.525 Yeah. 00:38:05.800 --> 00:38:06.010 But 00:38:07.060 --> 00:38:10.150 Rupert Isaacson: thinking about that part of your body or that 00:38:10.150 --> 00:38:11.620 part of your brain lovingly. 00:38:12.040 --> 00:38:18.790 And for all of us who grow up in the west, this is an alien concept at the beginning. 00:38:19.270 --> 00:38:24.850 Actually, as you also point out, even in places like India where such 00:38:24.850 --> 00:38:28.270 concepts are traditional, they're only traditional for the upper classes. 00:38:28.270 --> 00:38:30.910 They're not traditional for the lower classes. 00:38:30.940 --> 00:38:35.320 People think, oh, everyone in yoga must be doing yoga in India, must be doing yoga. 00:38:35.500 --> 00:38:36.940 It's like, no, no, no. 00:38:37.270 --> 00:38:41.080 That bloke who's breaking the rocks on the road, he is not doing any yoga. 00:38:41.080 --> 00:38:42.550 He's got no time to do yoga. 00:38:42.550 --> 00:38:43.870 He doesn't even know what yoga is. 00:38:43.870 --> 00:38:44.080 Yeah. 00:38:44.260 --> 00:38:48.160 That's for other people a little bit like it is in the West. 00:38:48.160 --> 00:38:52.270 I mean, the people that that do this are tend to be people who have 00:38:52.600 --> 00:38:56.440 the leisure and the money to turn their attention to these things. 00:38:56.440 --> 00:39:00.850 However, that does not mean that these things are not true. 00:39:01.630 --> 00:39:06.400 Just like not everyone in the west is a scientist and most scientists have to come 00:39:06.400 --> 00:39:11.170 from family backgrounds where there is the money and opportunity to have education. 00:39:11.200 --> 00:39:15.170 You know, yes, you get some people who come up from absolutely 00:39:15.170 --> 00:39:17.330 nothing, but not that many. 00:39:17.540 --> 00:39:20.210 Most people come from the upper end of the middle class. 00:39:20.630 --> 00:39:21.080 Okay. 00:39:21.380 --> 00:39:22.130 So, 00:39:24.230 --> 00:39:29.600 but what's lovely about this story is that that knowledge is then given back 00:39:29.600 --> 00:39:36.950 to the people who who need it the most, for whom it is alien, but also for us. 00:39:36.950 --> 00:39:42.320 I think for me, hearing this story, you know, one has one's own reactions 00:39:42.320 --> 00:39:43.625 and you know, you have, you. 00:39:44.600 --> 00:39:48.860 I remember myself at 10, myself at 20, myself at 30, myself at 40. 00:39:48.860 --> 00:39:49.010 Yeah. 00:39:49.070 --> 00:39:53.120 And each time my reaction to something like that would've been different because 00:39:53.480 --> 00:39:55.640 of my conditioning in my own culture. 00:39:56.000 --> 00:39:59.780 So in the early, my early adulthood, I would've dismissed 00:40:00.170 --> 00:40:02.760 something like a Aveda as well. 00:40:02.760 --> 00:40:04.050 That's just sort of hippie thing. 00:40:04.200 --> 00:40:06.240 'cause that's what my parents would've said, right? 00:40:06.630 --> 00:40:11.400 And then later you go traveling and you spend time in India and you 00:40:11.400 --> 00:40:14.430 spend time with other people, go, oh, actually this shit works, right? 00:40:14.580 --> 00:40:16.710 There's more than one technology out there. 00:40:16.860 --> 00:40:17.520 Good to know. 00:40:17.970 --> 00:40:18.480 Okay. 00:40:18.570 --> 00:40:19.920 Then you go through another thing. 00:40:20.280 --> 00:40:25.770 By the time you get to the idea that care, just simple care 00:40:27.300 --> 00:40:30.510 could really be the game changer. 00:40:31.650 --> 00:40:34.650 Those of you who are listening or watching might want to look 00:40:34.650 --> 00:40:36.840 at a concept called Yoga Nira. 00:40:37.740 --> 00:40:39.420 I use it a lot. 00:40:39.870 --> 00:40:40.890 In the middle of the day. 00:40:41.040 --> 00:40:44.190 One things I love about it is I'm a terrible meditator. 00:40:44.280 --> 00:40:45.750 Like I've tried to meditate. 00:40:46.110 --> 00:40:48.600 I just make up stories in my head. 00:40:48.600 --> 00:40:50.760 And, you know, it's just not, you know, it's just not me. 00:40:50.820 --> 00:40:54.870 And then you have to sit in this uncomfortable, stupid position where your 00:40:54.870 --> 00:40:56.190 back hurts, and then you're this hurt. 00:40:56.190 --> 00:40:56.850 And it's like, why? 00:40:56.850 --> 00:40:57.390 What the fuck? 00:40:57.390 --> 00:40:57.690 You know? 00:40:58.020 --> 00:41:03.420 And this is just some asshole bloke, like another Roman Catholic priest, you 00:41:03.420 --> 00:41:05.880 know, telling me I've got no fuck off. 00:41:06.090 --> 00:41:06.360 You know? 00:41:06.600 --> 00:41:09.330 But why can't I just lie down and relax and then suddenly. 00:41:09.945 --> 00:41:14.175 There you are with yoga nidra, with the person saying, yeah, if you just lie 00:41:14.175 --> 00:41:17.565 down and relax, oh, and by the way, if you fall asleep, that's totally okay. 00:41:17.745 --> 00:41:18.825 That's what your body needs. 00:41:19.035 --> 00:41:22.395 Oh, and now all we're going to do is just bring our attention 00:41:22.545 --> 00:41:26.235 to these different parts of your body in a sort of rhythmic way. 00:41:26.235 --> 00:41:28.455 You think about, you know, the top of your head, then you think 00:41:28.455 --> 00:41:29.655 about the middle of your forehead. 00:41:29.865 --> 00:41:32.985 Then you think about the muscles around the eyes, and then you think 00:41:32.985 --> 00:41:36.795 about your tongue, and then you think about this part and that part. 00:41:36.795 --> 00:41:40.335 You go down through the arms, through the, and by the time you are, one 00:41:40.335 --> 00:41:43.515 minute in, you are feeling really good. 00:41:43.575 --> 00:41:48.765 And then either after that you might be unconscious or you go into this state 00:41:48.765 --> 00:41:54.585 of very, very deep relaxation where you come out feeling like you just had 00:41:54.975 --> 00:42:00.435 eight hours of sleep after maybe 25 minutes, and there's been no effort. 00:42:01.665 --> 00:42:10.305 And all one has done is bring attention care, I suppose, in another word, to first 00:42:10.305 --> 00:42:16.365 the body as a whole lie down, relax, and then to these different parts of the body. 00:42:16.995 --> 00:42:21.855 Of course, this has been known for thousands of years, but it's interesting 00:42:21.855 --> 00:42:26.265 that even I think somebody like me who has spent all this time with shamans and blah, 00:42:26.265 --> 00:42:29.265 blah, I, I still find these concepts new. 00:42:29.965 --> 00:42:32.395 And it's like an endless discovery. 00:42:33.475 --> 00:42:37.315 It is, and it is rather beautiful that you can bring something 00:42:37.315 --> 00:42:38.545 like that to our attention. 00:42:39.085 --> 00:42:45.475 To use Bo Paul as a mirror to say it's not just about these people over there. 00:42:46.795 --> 00:42:47.905 You need this too. 00:42:48.325 --> 00:42:50.155 You are living in a contaminated zone. 00:42:50.785 --> 00:42:51.070 In a way. 00:42:51.085 --> 00:42:56.335 You lead a stressful life in a a less extreme way. 00:42:56.335 --> 00:43:04.555 Perhaps you've been abandoned or dismissed or overlooked or betrayed or attacked, 00:43:04.555 --> 00:43:06.385 or just the stuff that happens in life. 00:43:07.645 --> 00:43:10.045 You can't go through life without these things happening. 00:43:10.045 --> 00:43:12.055 That's part of the human condition. 00:43:12.205 --> 00:43:15.205 Sometimes you are the perpetrator, sometimes you are the victim. 00:43:15.445 --> 00:43:16.375 That's how it goes. 00:43:16.375 --> 00:43:18.715 It's, it's a, but what do you do about all this? 00:43:18.715 --> 00:43:23.815 There's, there's suffering, passion, suffering, there's compassion. 00:43:24.685 --> 00:43:28.615 Okay, so you bring this story back and you bring it to our attention. 00:43:28.705 --> 00:43:35.395 And simply by bringing our attention to the fact that you can heal through 00:43:35.395 --> 00:43:42.205 attention as a reader or even listening to this, I feel a certain sense of healing. 00:43:42.685 --> 00:43:44.005 It's very interesting, isn't it? 00:43:44.275 --> 00:43:46.645 That story transmits healing in this way. 00:43:47.725 --> 00:43:48.055 Rejane D'Espirac: Yeah. 00:43:48.055 --> 00:43:51.715 In a way where, at the beginning of the conversation you are talking about 00:43:51.985 --> 00:43:57.055 social medias and this zoom being part of it, and I guess this conversation. 00:43:57.085 --> 00:43:58.380 Yes, we are. 00:43:58.430 --> 00:44:02.770 Can be form of healing because of that, because it's a conversation, 00:44:03.160 --> 00:44:06.690 because well, in France in French we've got this term we call presence. 00:44:06.870 --> 00:44:10.830 Presence, you know, this kind of care, atten attention and care, 00:44:10.980 --> 00:44:15.120 just being present to the other, to the conversation to the moment and 00:44:15.120 --> 00:44:20.520 presence in itself can be very healing because suddenly you are not alone. 00:44:20.550 --> 00:44:23.310 You are with someone sharing something. 00:44:23.520 --> 00:44:26.160 And the most important part is a sharing part. 00:44:26.160 --> 00:44:27.540 It's not you, it's not me. 00:44:27.900 --> 00:44:30.510 This is what is between you and me. 00:44:31.020 --> 00:44:35.550 This is presence, and this is sharing, and it can be sharing in silence. 00:44:35.550 --> 00:44:38.310 But this is the most important, important part. 00:44:38.550 --> 00:44:44.160 And, and I guess the bubble story, it's part of it, it's a moment of sharing 00:44:44.520 --> 00:44:50.040 where all this kind of possibility was not there for this kind of people. 00:44:50.130 --> 00:44:54.520 And just to answer your question, why whilst people, rich people has 00:44:54.520 --> 00:44:57.640 not been concerned by the disaster? 00:44:57.640 --> 00:44:58.120 Yes. 00:44:58.120 --> 00:45:02.890 It's because the, the factory was in the suburbs in the popular 00:45:02.980 --> 00:45:05.905 areas, and so it was cold. 00:45:05.905 --> 00:45:07.955 So the gas leaked Yes. 00:45:07.955 --> 00:45:09.125 At very low level. 00:45:09.755 --> 00:45:14.495 And so entering the houses and then, and in Bal you've got a huge lake. 00:45:14.705 --> 00:45:21.245 Lake in the middle of the city, and the, the gas was absorbed. 00:45:21.980 --> 00:45:27.440 By the water and the wells where the rich people were living at the, out 00:45:27.500 --> 00:45:30.920 the other part of the lake on deals. 00:45:32.390 --> 00:45:39.770 So yes, the, the gas never reached the, the rich the rich areas. 00:45:40.460 --> 00:45:43.430 Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting, the geography of health, isn't it? 00:45:44.460 --> 00:45:50.580 You live in the low lying swamp, chances are you'll get more sick than 00:45:50.580 --> 00:45:52.320 if you live up on the hill, sure. 00:45:52.650 --> 00:45:53.640 Where the wind blows. 00:45:54.360 --> 00:45:57.990 And there's a reason why, if you think about it, you think of any 00:45:57.990 --> 00:46:05.190 city with perhaps the exception of places like the favelas of Rio de 00:46:05.190 --> 00:46:10.650 Janeiro, which sometimes are up on the hills, but in general, in general, 00:46:12.810 --> 00:46:15.120 the rich people live high and the poor people live low. 00:46:15.810 --> 00:46:20.550 So if you're moving to a place lads, you might want to consider 00:46:23.340 --> 00:46:26.100 which bit of the physical geography you go for. 00:46:26.610 --> 00:46:34.260 The story in Boal, of course in India, you spent a lot of time in India. 00:46:34.260 --> 00:46:37.860 I've spent some time in India, but you've spent much more time than me. 00:46:38.450 --> 00:46:39.650 And this of course. 00:46:40.025 --> 00:46:45.125 Has impacted your personal life in massive ways. 00:46:45.425 --> 00:46:51.185 The book that sort of, I would say launched you in a way was 00:46:51.185 --> 00:46:55.265 this book called On Fa Bibe. 00:46:55.745 --> 00:46:56.015 Rejane D'Espirac: Oh yeah. 00:46:56.020 --> 00:46:56.420 Almost. 00:46:56.560 --> 00:46:57.785 And Bibe on Fa On 00:46:57.785 --> 00:46:58.085 Rupert Isaacson: Fa. 00:46:58.235 --> 00:46:59.765 Right At Last Baby. 00:46:59.765 --> 00:47:00.335 At at Last. 00:47:00.335 --> 00:47:00.605 Yeah. 00:47:00.820 --> 00:47:01.775 A Baby at Last. 00:47:01.805 --> 00:47:02.255 Right. 00:47:05.615 --> 00:47:06.995 Tell us about that story. 00:47:08.885 --> 00:47:11.345 Rejane D'Espirac: In fact, this is the same story in a way. 00:47:11.585 --> 00:47:12.005 Rupert Isaacson: Go on. 00:47:13.655 --> 00:47:15.725 Rejane D'Espirac: The this is my son's story. 00:47:15.825 --> 00:47:19.725 The book is about the fact that after seven years of trying to 00:47:19.725 --> 00:47:22.485 have a baby it was not there. 00:47:22.875 --> 00:47:29.375 And I didn't want to go to medicalization of infertility medicalization. 00:47:29.855 --> 00:47:31.685 I knew it was not my pass. 00:47:31.805 --> 00:47:33.605 Something else was waiting for me. 00:47:33.635 --> 00:47:41.815 But I and then I happened to be in India with my husband and before going to 00:47:42.235 --> 00:47:49.255 write a story about Indian bikers, we stopped in a, in Ayurvedic clinic in the 00:47:49.255 --> 00:47:51.595 South of Carolina to see a friend of us. 00:47:52.690 --> 00:47:56.530 So we were there just for a couple of days to meet our friends, but then 00:47:56.530 --> 00:47:58.360 we were there, so we met the doctor. 00:47:58.420 --> 00:48:01.990 The I have doctor, and I knew nothing about Aveda at that time. 00:48:02.200 --> 00:48:02.530 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:48:02.530 --> 00:48:03.220 That's interesting. 00:48:03.430 --> 00:48:03.670 Rejane D'Espirac: Yeah. 00:48:04.010 --> 00:48:05.575 Rupert Isaacson: You weren't so meeting, you know, 00:48:05.690 --> 00:48:09.320 Rejane D'Espirac: I, I've never looked for a solution there, 00:48:09.530 --> 00:48:11.990 but the ion found me in a way. 00:48:12.230 --> 00:48:12.530 Yeah. 00:48:13.370 --> 00:48:17.850 And so we met the doctors and he asked us why are you there? 00:48:17.940 --> 00:48:22.870 I said, okay, we just came to visit asa, but by the way, you know, we've got 00:48:22.870 --> 00:48:26.860 this kind of western healthy conditions. 00:48:26.950 --> 00:48:31.030 I've got headaches, my husband have back pains, and we are very stressful because 00:48:31.360 --> 00:48:33.100 we work a lot and blah, blah, blah. 00:48:33.520 --> 00:48:34.300 He said, okay. 00:48:34.690 --> 00:48:40.960 And then my husband told him, and I was so angry about that, he says, okay, 00:48:40.960 --> 00:48:45.550 and you know, we've, we've been trying to have a baby, but it doesn't work. 00:48:45.940 --> 00:48:46.285 And Dr. 00:48:46.285 --> 00:48:48.340 Clark says, okay. 00:48:49.540 --> 00:48:53.500 And I was so angry because this was kind of taboo for me. 00:48:53.500 --> 00:48:56.560 That's why, why I was saying that to this guy with a big mustache. 00:48:56.560 --> 00:48:58.390 We don't know for 10 minutes, would 00:48:59.175 --> 00:49:00.880 Rupert Isaacson: it have been all right if the guy didn't have a mustache? 00:49:03.220 --> 00:49:05.290 You are only allowed to tell people you have no mustache. 00:49:05.590 --> 00:49:05.920 Rejane D'Espirac: Yeah, 00:49:06.730 --> 00:49:07.255 Rupert Isaacson: I know what you mean though. 00:49:07.285 --> 00:49:07.575 Yeah. 00:49:07.645 --> 00:49:07.935 Yeah. 00:49:08.475 --> 00:49:11.290 Rejane D'Espirac: And but then we spend a couple of days and we 00:49:11.290 --> 00:49:15.790 have this kind of sweet message and then, it was interesting. 00:49:15.790 --> 00:49:15.880 Mm-hmm. 00:49:16.150 --> 00:49:22.910 After two days I won, I needed to go to do my story with Indian bikers, so tour 00:49:23.270 --> 00:49:25.550 South India by bike with these guys. 00:49:25.995 --> 00:49:27.380 And, and I said, I guess as 00:49:27.380 --> 00:49:30.350 Rupert Isaacson: in motorbikes or Hell's Angel, Indian Hell's Angels, or, yeah. 00:49:30.380 --> 00:49:30.620 Kind 00:49:30.620 --> 00:49:30.740 Rejane D'Espirac: of. 00:49:30.860 --> 00:49:35.630 It was people from Ryan and Field, people who knows India knows Royal Enfield. 00:49:35.630 --> 00:49:36.200 This Yes. 00:49:36.320 --> 00:49:38.660 The Indian brand of motorbikes. 00:49:38.900 --> 00:49:39.170 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:49:39.270 --> 00:49:43.500 Rejane D'Espirac: So yes, it was, the idea was to, to to have a trip 00:49:43.500 --> 00:49:45.710 in India with viol Enfield people. 00:49:46.910 --> 00:49:47.060 Okay. 00:49:47.060 --> 00:49:47.515 And it was fun. 00:49:48.195 --> 00:49:48.315 I 00:49:48.335 --> 00:49:48.555 Rupert Isaacson: bet. 00:49:49.460 --> 00:49:51.825 Rejane D'Espirac: But then I, I told the doctor, okay, doctor, it 00:49:51.825 --> 00:49:53.115 was very interesting to be there. 00:49:53.325 --> 00:49:55.695 And but by the way, I still have headaches. 00:49:56.055 --> 00:50:02.775 And the guy looked at me and say, Rajan, why are you so sad? 00:50:04.065 --> 00:50:08.505 And I don't have the answer still, but just I started crying and 00:50:08.505 --> 00:50:10.335 crying and crying for two hours. 00:50:10.335 --> 00:50:11.265 I start crying. 00:50:12.255 --> 00:50:15.765 So I decided to go back after my riding trip. 00:50:16.425 --> 00:50:20.865 I, we going back to the clinic for 10 days and we have like very classical 00:50:20.865 --> 00:50:23.265 treatments what they call Pan Karma. 00:50:23.265 --> 00:50:24.555 It's a detox process. 00:50:24.915 --> 00:50:25.095 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:50:25.095 --> 00:50:25.185 But 00:50:25.575 --> 00:50:28.635 Rejane D'Espirac: nothing really focused on infertility. 00:50:28.635 --> 00:50:32.865 But I understood the guy was interesting with the, the Christian and he, 00:50:33.165 --> 00:50:37.245 we talked, we talked about love about couple, we talked about life. 00:50:38.670 --> 00:50:42.810 That Ida first, it's a, it's a, it's a balance process. 00:50:42.840 --> 00:50:46.940 The idea for them, it's when you got sick, when you've got something, you see it's 00:50:46.940 --> 00:50:49.460 easy because your energy is unbalanced. 00:50:49.910 --> 00:50:55.100 So the medicine, the, the goal of the medicine is first to balance your energy. 00:50:56.090 --> 00:51:00.710 So after 10 days, I went back to France and I really feel balanced. 00:51:01.040 --> 00:51:03.380 So I went back to my boss. 00:51:03.710 --> 00:51:06.860 I was taking, I was the editor of a magazine at that 00:51:06.860 --> 00:51:08.540 time, and I went to my boss. 00:51:08.660 --> 00:51:13.940 I said, okay, I'm gonna be there three months and the fourth month I'm not there. 00:51:14.390 --> 00:51:15.830 I'm gonna work part-time. 00:51:15.830 --> 00:51:16.940 I need time for me. 00:51:17.000 --> 00:51:18.410 I need to go back to the ground. 00:51:18.680 --> 00:51:23.390 I need to maybe start something else, but I need time for me. 00:51:23.960 --> 00:51:24.260 Rupert Isaacson: Okay? 00:51:24.350 --> 00:51:30.050 Rejane D'Espirac: And slowly, slowly months after months I realized I, overda 00:51:30.530 --> 00:51:33.110 has changed something very subtle. 00:51:33.710 --> 00:51:36.020 It was not very mechanical, but it was subtle. 00:51:36.110 --> 00:51:37.220 It was in my energy. 00:51:37.610 --> 00:51:40.460 I was more in life, more alive in a way. 00:51:41.840 --> 00:51:44.810 And like six months. 00:51:44.840 --> 00:51:49.610 And then we decided to go to see a, a specialist in France. 00:51:49.610 --> 00:51:55.100 I said, okay, we have opened this box of having a baby again, so let's be sure. 00:51:55.130 --> 00:51:59.990 So we went to see a, a specialist in France and we had some big 00:51:59.990 --> 00:52:02.370 analysis about fertility stuff. 00:52:02.490 --> 00:52:05.340 And after some weeks, the guy told us. 00:52:06.090 --> 00:52:08.310 You will have, you will never have a baby. 00:52:08.910 --> 00:52:11.910 Don't try a medicalized process. 00:52:12.120 --> 00:52:15.270 It will not work if you want a child adopt. 00:52:15.840 --> 00:52:18.500 Rupert Isaacson: As you know, if you followed any of my work, I'm 00:52:18.500 --> 00:52:25.680 an autism dad and we have a whole career before this podcast in helping 00:52:25.680 --> 00:52:30.400 people with neurodivergence, either who are professionals in the field. 00:52:30.479 --> 00:52:31.320 Are you a therapist? 00:52:31.740 --> 00:52:33.010 Are you a caregiver? 00:52:33.400 --> 00:52:34.410 Are you a parent? 00:52:34.845 --> 00:52:36.875 Or are you somebody with neurodivergence? 00:52:38.315 --> 00:52:43.255 When my son, Rowan, was diagnosed with autism in 2004, 00:52:43.295 --> 00:52:44.925 I really didn't know what to do. 00:52:45.125 --> 00:52:50.394 So I reached out for mentorship, and I found it through an amazing adult 00:52:50.435 --> 00:52:53.235 autistic woman who's very famous, Dr. 00:52:53.385 --> 00:52:54.275 Temple Grandin. 00:52:54.475 --> 00:52:56.115 And she told me what to do. 00:52:56.165 --> 00:53:00.405 And it's been working so amazingly for the last 20 years. 00:53:00.755 --> 00:53:05.205 That not only is my son basically independent, but we've helped 00:53:05.465 --> 00:53:09.215 countless, countless thousands of others reach the same goal. 00:53:09.555 --> 00:53:13.455 Working in schools, working at home, working in therapy settings. 00:53:14.485 --> 00:53:18.925 If you would like to learn this cutting edge, neuroscience backed 00:53:19.144 --> 00:53:21.184 approach, it's called Movement Method. 00:53:21.844 --> 00:53:25.202 You can learn it online, you can learn it very, very simply. 00:53:25.202 --> 00:53:27.464 It's almost laughably simple. 00:53:28.405 --> 00:53:31.105 The important thing is to begin. 00:53:32.035 --> 00:53:35.185 Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr. 00:53:35.185 --> 00:53:38.475 Grandin and see what results can follow. 00:53:39.505 --> 00:53:42.435 Go to this website, newtrailslearning. 00:53:44.705 --> 00:53:47.210 com Sign up as a gold member. 00:53:47.650 --> 00:53:50.540 Take the online movement method course. 00:53:51.030 --> 00:53:52.400 It's in 40 countries. 00:53:53.010 --> 00:53:55.070 Let us know how it goes for you. 00:53:55.270 --> 00:53:56.039 We really want to know. 00:53:56.050 --> 00:54:00.549 We really want to help people like me, people like you, out there 00:54:00.899 --> 00:54:04.180 live their best life, to live free, ride free, see what happens. 00:54:05.170 --> 00:54:07.180 Why did he say that medically? 00:54:07.180 --> 00:54:08.080 What was his reason? 00:54:08.530 --> 00:54:11.500 Rejane D'Espirac: Oh, because you know, the, the rates of hormonal 00:54:11.500 --> 00:54:16.970 rates for him, hormonal rates for me and the number of staff. 00:54:16.970 --> 00:54:17.840 The values, the 00:54:17.840 --> 00:54:19.160 Rupert Isaacson: hormonal values, 00:54:19.190 --> 00:54:19.430 Rejane D'Espirac: right? 00:54:19.435 --> 00:54:19.545 Yeah. 00:54:19.550 --> 00:54:19.670 Yeah. 00:54:19.670 --> 00:54:22.130 And all this kind of very factual Okay. 00:54:23.450 --> 00:54:23.900 Stuff. 00:54:24.170 --> 00:54:27.590 It says, okay, now you, you can be sure don't go. 00:54:27.590 --> 00:54:31.100 It's gonna be painful and long and useless. 00:54:31.280 --> 00:54:33.110 So if you want a child you can adopt. 00:54:33.110 --> 00:54:34.100 And it was okay for us. 00:54:34.100 --> 00:54:37.670 I said, okay, at least we know and we are gonna think about it. 00:54:38.690 --> 00:54:43.370 But it was in March and in October or November after I 00:54:43.370 --> 00:54:45.050 discovered I was pregnant. 00:54:45.050 --> 00:54:46.160 Completely, naturally, 00:54:47.060 --> 00:54:47.480 Rupert Isaacson: okay. 00:54:47.600 --> 00:54:50.900 Rejane D'Espirac: So this is the beginning of the book said, whoa, okay. 00:54:50.930 --> 00:54:51.680 What happened? 00:54:52.220 --> 00:54:59.450 What happened for the diagnosis of western medicine being so invalid 00:54:59.450 --> 00:55:01.760 after a few weeks or months? 00:55:01.940 --> 00:55:02.030 Mm-hmm. 00:55:02.120 --> 00:55:03.740 What happened with Ayurveda? 00:55:03.740 --> 00:55:05.510 What did they open to me? 00:55:05.870 --> 00:55:12.085 So I started investigation about the link between emotions and body and mm-hmm. 00:55:12.800 --> 00:55:14.360 And about what? 00:55:15.335 --> 00:55:18.815 What we don't know, in fact about a human being. 00:55:18.845 --> 00:55:24.305 And the, maybe we are not only a mechanical process, maybe we are not only 00:55:24.305 --> 00:55:27.095 a machine and it's more complex than that. 00:55:27.605 --> 00:55:31.595 And maybe this kind of traditional medicine and on, on not only 00:55:31.775 --> 00:55:36.245 Ayurveda, but, and maybe care is opening something else and is 00:55:36.245 --> 00:55:38.105 operating on a different level. 00:55:38.735 --> 00:55:43.565 And maybe it's time to get it all together on a more holistic approach. 00:55:43.565 --> 00:55:48.995 Of course, you need to go to Western doctors, of course you need to investigate 00:55:49.325 --> 00:55:55.175 quantitative things about what is wrong in your body, but maybe there is something 00:55:55.175 --> 00:55:57.425 more meditative you can work with. 00:55:58.085 --> 00:55:59.765 And that's for the book. 00:55:59.915 --> 00:56:04.625 So I wanted to, I have, so this is my story and my son's story, and this 00:56:04.625 --> 00:56:07.775 is also my story as a professional, as a, as a writer, because I 00:56:07.775 --> 00:56:09.455 wanted to understand what happened. 00:56:09.785 --> 00:56:15.685 So I start writing a lot about healing and human complexity and 00:56:15.685 --> 00:56:20.245 maybe consciousness and all this kind of stuff we are made with. 00:56:20.905 --> 00:56:24.625 So for the book, I went back to the doctor, the French doctor, that told 00:56:24.625 --> 00:56:26.545 me I, I would never have a child. 00:56:27.595 --> 00:56:32.245 And I told him what happened, and he told me that, you know, I'm working with 00:56:32.245 --> 00:56:35.545 quantity, but I don't work with quality. 00:56:36.505 --> 00:56:39.985 Maybe if you've got only one egg, and for my point of view, 00:56:39.985 --> 00:56:41.605 statistically it's not enough. 00:56:42.175 --> 00:56:46.105 But if this one egg is a very good quality, it's gonna work. 00:56:46.555 --> 00:56:48.115 But quality is not my stuff. 00:56:48.685 --> 00:56:54.175 So maybe all this traditional approach or more holistic approach or more emotional 00:56:54.235 --> 00:56:59.840 approach or spiritual approach, any in humanism, it's part of it, of course. 00:56:59.840 --> 00:57:00.240 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:57:00.715 --> 00:57:04.465 Rejane D'Espirac: They're working more on spirits or on quality of things. 00:57:06.385 --> 00:57:10.105 Rupert Isaacson: That's a really good answer, and it was not 00:57:10.105 --> 00:57:11.545 the answer I was expecting. 00:57:11.905 --> 00:57:12.055 Okay. 00:57:12.265 --> 00:57:23.095 I really like the analogy that the doctor gave there of quality versus quantity. 00:57:23.694 --> 00:57:26.575 This is a really interesting thing to consider. 00:57:27.914 --> 00:57:37.154 Why do certain things work against the statistics, against the odds? 00:57:38.234 --> 00:57:45.944 Is it possible that the quality of the minority thing is so good that it 00:57:45.944 --> 00:57:50.294 makes up for, well, I think we know that this is true, but it's, what is 00:57:50.294 --> 00:57:53.894 true is we don't, we don't look at this scientifically at all, do we? 00:57:54.224 --> 00:57:56.984 Scientifically we tend to only deal. 00:57:57.224 --> 00:58:00.764 It's so true in quantity and in the work that we are doing. 00:58:01.560 --> 00:58:03.089 With autism in the brain. 00:58:03.479 --> 00:58:05.819 We have a lot of academics that study us. 00:58:05.930 --> 00:58:10.610 Last year we had a PhD published into movement method, which is, you 00:58:10.610 --> 00:58:15.619 know, our neuroplasticity approach started with kids and now it's 00:58:15.619 --> 00:58:17.509 for everybody started with autism. 00:58:17.509 --> 00:58:18.649 Now it's for everybody. 00:58:19.109 --> 00:58:21.839 And our equine approaches too. 00:58:21.899 --> 00:58:26.970 There've been so many studies done now on us, and there's more beginning. 00:58:27.870 --> 00:58:32.250 And I always hear these academics when they want to do the studies, 'cause they 00:58:32.250 --> 00:58:38.760 always use this term, is it a quantitative study or is it a qualitative study? 00:58:39.090 --> 00:58:40.320 And I'm like, I don't fucking know. 00:58:40.325 --> 00:58:40.865 I I don't know. 00:58:40.975 --> 00:58:41.505 It's your job. 00:58:41.905 --> 00:58:43.620 I mean, you know, I'm just doing the thing. 00:58:43.620 --> 00:58:44.730 I mean, you tell me. 00:58:45.069 --> 00:58:47.139 And then they tell me something in academic speech. 00:58:47.139 --> 00:58:48.819 I'm like, yep, that makes no sense at all. 00:58:48.819 --> 00:58:51.159 Okay, anyway, I'm gonna go do my job. 00:58:51.159 --> 00:58:51.939 You do yours. 00:58:52.419 --> 00:58:57.460 But I think what you just said has actually allowed me to understand the 00:58:57.460 --> 00:59:02.980 difference in a way that I haven't before. 00:59:02.980 --> 00:59:04.330 So thank you for that. 00:59:05.004 --> 00:59:05.665 The, and the 00:59:05.665 --> 00:59:10.000 Rejane D'Espirac: guy, the guy say something else about quality said, and 00:59:10.000 --> 00:59:17.529 quality is very linked to environment, inner environment, and outer environment. 00:59:17.890 --> 00:59:22.720 So if you want, don't, if you want, the quality can be really, 00:59:22.775 --> 00:59:26.435 modeled maybe by inner environment. 00:59:26.435 --> 00:59:28.985 So your emotions, your personal story. 00:59:28.985 --> 00:59:31.685 Mm uh, your familial background. 00:59:31.775 --> 00:59:34.235 So this part of your inner environment. 00:59:34.240 --> 00:59:34.640 Mm-hmm. 00:59:34.725 --> 00:59:39.275 And you can walk and what you eat and the, what you do about stress and whatever. 00:59:39.575 --> 00:59:44.975 And outer environment, the way the, the place you live with the pollution 00:59:44.975 --> 00:59:47.524 you are you are around and whatever. 00:59:47.674 --> 00:59:50.375 So quality is influenced by environment. 00:59:50.825 --> 00:59:54.875 The, in the big way of understanding what environment is. 00:59:54.995 --> 00:59:59.555 And this is very interesting too because I, I start under understanding 00:59:59.615 --> 01:00:03.424 that we are not isolated beings. 01:00:04.294 --> 01:00:06.904 We are just contexts, you know? 01:00:06.904 --> 01:00:08.464 And context can change. 01:00:08.524 --> 01:00:12.605 And so the way context change, you are gonna change on a 01:00:12.605 --> 01:00:14.285 good way, on a, on a bad way. 01:00:17.615 --> 01:00:21.694 Rupert Isaacson: Back to my work with movement method, we have an equation 01:00:21.725 --> 01:00:23.524 that we teach people for learning. 01:00:23.524 --> 01:00:24.995 We call it the learning equation. 01:00:25.575 --> 01:00:26.654 And it's about environment. 01:00:27.825 --> 01:00:34.395 And we say, if you get the physical environment right, the 01:00:34.395 --> 01:00:38.295 physical environment is both your internal physical environment, your 01:00:38.295 --> 01:00:41.384 nutrition, this and that, but it's also your external environment. 01:00:41.384 --> 01:00:47.535 Effectively, the more nature the better, because that's our habitat as a species. 01:00:48.570 --> 01:00:51.000 And the right human environment. 01:00:51.090 --> 01:00:56.310 IE hopefully an asshole free zone when you're trying to learn. 01:00:56.310 --> 01:01:02.220 Because when you are dealing with an unsympathetic person that the brain 01:01:02.220 --> 01:01:07.530 perceives that as a threat, then the brain will tell the body to produce cortisol 01:01:07.800 --> 01:01:10.650 stress hormone, which blocks learning. 01:01:10.650 --> 01:01:12.900 That's its job to get you out of trouble. 01:01:12.930 --> 01:01:18.420 So you're not thinking, so you need to get that right too. 01:01:18.420 --> 01:01:24.849 So no assholes and nice physical and internal environment. 01:01:25.059 --> 01:01:28.359 But then we started to look at that and say, okay, but which of 01:01:28.359 --> 01:01:29.799 those two is the most important? 01:01:30.729 --> 01:01:34.779 And we realized it was the human environment because you can go into the 01:01:34.779 --> 01:01:42.399 forest with somebody who's horrible and really scary, and all you will learn 01:01:42.399 --> 01:01:44.499 is to try to run away from that person. 01:01:45.939 --> 01:01:52.179 You can be in a terrible physical environment with somebody very empathetic 01:01:53.109 --> 01:02:01.869 and learn a lot that the quality of love will always be the most important thing. 01:02:02.334 --> 01:02:03.144 Rejane D'Espirac: Back to Bapa, 01:02:03.654 --> 01:02:04.504 Rupert Isaacson: back to Bapa. 01:02:04.629 --> 01:02:05.079 Yeah. 01:02:05.529 --> 01:02:13.959 So when you are talking about at last a baby, that book, 01:02:14.619 --> 01:02:16.209 I'm just tracing the story. 01:02:17.709 --> 01:02:23.619 It starts, I guess, when the Ayurvedic practitioner said 01:02:23.619 --> 01:02:26.739 to you, why are you so sad? 01:02:27.039 --> 01:02:27.159 Mm-hmm. 01:02:28.329 --> 01:02:37.899 Did he give a chance for your subconscious mind to begin a process of self-care? 01:02:38.499 --> 01:02:38.739 Yes. 01:02:38.739 --> 01:02:39.999 This is a question, right? 01:02:40.359 --> 01:02:40.479 Yes. 01:02:40.564 --> 01:02:40.724 Yes. 01:02:41.109 --> 01:02:49.419 And then did that process of self-care allow for an internal environment 01:02:49.419 --> 01:02:50.919 and an external environment? 01:02:51.099 --> 01:02:54.999 'cause you would begin therefore to make certain changes in your environment 01:02:54.999 --> 01:03:00.609 externally, certain changes in your behaviors, perhaps that were not kinder 01:03:00.609 --> 01:03:04.749 to yourself, perhaps that gave that egg 01:03:07.809 --> 01:03:09.519 the chance to show its quality, 01:03:10.449 --> 01:03:10.779 Rejane D'Espirac: I guess. 01:03:10.779 --> 01:03:11.499 Yes, that's true. 01:03:11.529 --> 01:03:13.779 I guess it gave me the chance of self-care. 01:03:14.319 --> 01:03:19.239 It gave me, it is behind my mask in a way. 01:03:19.929 --> 01:03:23.349 So he was say, he was telling me, I see you. 01:03:23.829 --> 01:03:24.279 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, 01:03:24.519 --> 01:03:25.174 Rejane D'Espirac: I see you. 01:03:25.239 --> 01:03:27.189 You are the way, you really are. 01:03:27.399 --> 01:03:28.869 I mean, you are fragile. 01:03:28.929 --> 01:03:30.609 You are maybe a little bit lost. 01:03:30.609 --> 01:03:35.079 You are a little bit bit fed up with, with what you are doing now. 01:03:35.169 --> 01:03:36.669 And I can see it. 01:03:37.029 --> 01:03:41.559 So it was giving me the opportunity to be weak and to be seen. 01:03:42.099 --> 01:03:43.119 Mm-hmm. 01:03:43.449 --> 01:03:45.669 To accept help in a way. 01:03:47.169 --> 01:03:56.709 And the way Aveda helped me at that time was also very helpful because it's 01:03:56.709 --> 01:04:00.009 mostly message, and it's not talking. 01:04:00.429 --> 01:04:01.509 Rupert Isaacson: It's mostly massage. 01:04:01.599 --> 01:04:03.064 Rejane D'Espirac: Massage, yes, yes, yes. 01:04:03.069 --> 01:04:04.089 So it's not talking. 01:04:04.089 --> 01:04:11.889 So in a way just being, you know, that I, I didn't have to tell my 01:04:11.889 --> 01:04:17.034 life and to, to explain my doubts about becoming a mum and mm-hmm. 01:04:17.129 --> 01:04:20.669 And explaining my doubts about this guy in my life. 01:04:20.669 --> 01:04:23.279 And would you, I am ready. 01:04:23.279 --> 01:04:26.309 Am I ready to have a child with this guy and whatever, and blah, 01:04:26.309 --> 01:04:27.359 blah, blah and blah, blah, blah. 01:04:27.989 --> 01:04:29.669 So it was not the point. 01:04:30.089 --> 01:04:34.439 And he says, okay, I see you and now we are gonna touch your body 01:04:34.439 --> 01:04:42.149 and feel you secure and feel, you, feel, make you feel warm, and make 01:04:42.149 --> 01:04:48.089 you feel secure and make you back to this kind of very primal state. 01:04:49.079 --> 01:04:51.749 And from that, you are gonna blow again. 01:04:53.939 --> 01:04:56.429 Rupert Isaacson: So a couple more questions come up. 01:04:56.429 --> 01:04:57.269 This is interesting. 01:04:57.719 --> 01:05:01.589 So initially you have this negative reaction because your husband. 01:05:02.099 --> 01:05:04.109 Says to this man with the mustache. 01:05:04.834 --> 01:05:08.619 And, and the reason too, I, it's funny 'cause you know, I've spent time in 01:05:08.619 --> 01:05:16.479 Kerala, and Kerala is southwest India, where I discovered what a verta is, and I 01:05:16.479 --> 01:05:19.664 also ended up getting Ayurvedic massage. 01:05:20.659 --> 01:05:26.079 And this Vedic practitioner had a great big mustache and had me naked 01:05:26.079 --> 01:05:30.969 on the table with all his students watching while he was explaining, 01:05:30.969 --> 01:05:32.379 you know, what he was doing. 01:05:32.439 --> 01:05:34.029 And it felt totally okay. 01:05:34.329 --> 01:05:37.329 And I remember lying there thinking, why does this feel totally okay? 01:05:37.329 --> 01:05:37.779 But it does. 01:05:38.109 --> 01:05:45.859 And the quality of the oils, this was probably true for you. 01:05:45.949 --> 01:05:50.299 He was going into the forest and he was collecting the plants 01:05:50.599 --> 01:05:52.549 and creating the oils himself. 01:05:52.999 --> 01:05:57.739 So the purity of the oils, you could feel it like, just like when you 01:05:58.069 --> 01:06:02.509 ibe really good olive oil as opposed to what you buy in the supermarket. 01:06:02.899 --> 01:06:05.930 If some, if you have a friend who has a farm who makes olive oil, you 01:06:05.930 --> 01:06:07.339 can tell the difference immediately. 01:06:07.339 --> 01:06:09.379 You don't, nobody needs to explain it to you. 01:06:09.379 --> 01:06:14.779 Or if you drink a wine from your friend's farm that has been done organically and 01:06:14.779 --> 01:06:17.869 beautiful and blah, blah, blah, no one needs to explain to you the difference. 01:06:17.869 --> 01:06:19.159 It's clear in the taste. 01:06:19.309 --> 01:06:22.159 Similarly, the feeling when the. 01:06:22.819 --> 01:06:27.799 Even the smell of the oils, you could feel the medicinal value immediately. 01:06:27.919 --> 01:06:29.930 You could feel your own own hormones. 01:06:30.200 --> 01:06:31.939 Your endocrine system reacting to this. 01:06:31.939 --> 01:06:32.509 Yes, yes, yes. 01:06:32.779 --> 01:06:38.779 However, when a stranger with a big black mustache says something 01:06:38.779 --> 01:06:40.580 to you like, why are you so sad? 01:06:40.879 --> 01:06:45.740 That could be a very manipulative situation. 01:06:47.930 --> 01:06:50.870 And then you said, and then when I'm gonna touch the body. 01:06:50.899 --> 01:06:57.680 'cause we know that human touch is so vital, but again, we are now 01:06:57.680 --> 01:07:02.120 living in a day and age where touch is almost more taboo than ever. 01:07:02.660 --> 01:07:02.750 Mm-hmm. 01:07:03.379 --> 01:07:08.779 And then you say, and then he touched me in all these ways, including sexually. 01:07:09.589 --> 01:07:12.979 How does that, how did that not trigger? 01:07:13.609 --> 01:07:13.700 Mm-hmm. 01:07:13.939 --> 01:07:15.679 Your defensive responses. 01:07:15.859 --> 01:07:21.319 How did you know at a gut level that this was not creepy? 01:07:21.679 --> 01:07:27.649 That this was actually a healing technology? 01:07:28.670 --> 01:07:31.250 Why did the trust, 'cause you are a skeptical lady. 01:07:31.250 --> 01:07:31.550 I know. 01:07:31.550 --> 01:07:35.420 You, you know, your bullshit meter is very, very high. 01:07:35.720 --> 01:07:40.880 You know, you are not, you are not going to be, you are not going to 01:07:40.880 --> 01:07:44.179 be easily manipulated by anybody. 01:07:44.179 --> 01:07:47.160 I've known you for a long time, Rajan, you know, I'd say you see 01:07:47.160 --> 01:07:49.019 the world pretty accurately and. 01:07:49.589 --> 01:07:51.179 With a sense of humor. 01:07:51.209 --> 01:07:58.039 And so it's intriguing to me that in this process, you said, 01:07:58.279 --> 01:08:00.139 yeah, you know, this is actually 01:08:00.439 --> 01:08:00.739 Rejane D'Espirac: time to Yeah. 01:08:00.769 --> 01:08:02.119 Rupert Isaacson: What, what is needed here? 01:08:02.179 --> 01:08:02.509 Yeah. 01:08:02.779 --> 01:08:03.154 Rejane D'Espirac: Time to like 01:08:03.264 --> 01:08:03.554 Rupert Isaacson: that. 01:08:03.554 --> 01:08:05.839 This is medicinal, not manipulative. 01:08:06.409 --> 01:08:06.679 What? 01:08:08.359 --> 01:08:10.509 Rejane D'Espirac: So the, the four thing, the sad thing I guess I 01:08:10.509 --> 01:08:15.429 just felt it it was going from him, from the good, the good part of him 01:08:15.529 --> 01:08:17.539 not the manipulative part at all. 01:08:18.109 --> 01:08:19.849 Rupert Isaacson: Because, you know, someone who's, who's in 01:08:19.849 --> 01:08:23.779 charge of a cult might say that to some, oh, why are you so sad? 01:08:23.779 --> 01:08:24.074 And Yeah. 01:08:24.174 --> 01:08:25.639 Now just gimme all your money and 01:08:25.644 --> 01:08:25.794 Rejane D'Espirac: Yeah. 01:08:25.794 --> 01:08:26.719 Oh yeah, sure, sure. 01:08:26.719 --> 01:08:26.899 Yeah. 01:08:26.904 --> 01:08:26.954 Yeah. 01:08:27.469 --> 01:08:30.019 And your passport, we had not decide to come back. 01:08:30.049 --> 01:08:33.909 So he didn't knew he didn't know he will, he would see me again. 01:08:34.059 --> 01:08:34.389 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 01:08:34.389 --> 01:08:35.409 He had nothing to gain. 01:08:35.414 --> 01:08:36.039 Rejane D'Espirac: No, no, no. 01:08:36.219 --> 01:08:36.459 Okay. 01:08:36.489 --> 01:08:36.699 Okay. 01:08:36.759 --> 01:08:37.149 Rupert Isaacson: That's important. 01:08:37.149 --> 01:08:37.329 So just 01:08:37.899 --> 01:08:39.939 Rejane D'Espirac: giving me a clue, another clue. 01:08:40.044 --> 01:08:40.334 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:08:41.619 --> 01:08:45.129 Rejane D'Espirac: I was, I, I should have, like before, first time he told 01:08:45.129 --> 01:08:49.910 me when we spent these two days during the conversation, he told me, but if you 01:08:49.910 --> 01:08:53.149 want a child, give him a place right now. 01:08:54.169 --> 01:08:57.799 And I said, in my, in my, I was thinking, but shut up. 01:08:57.829 --> 01:08:59.419 It's not, it's not your business. 01:08:59.479 --> 01:09:01.700 You know, I, I was skeptical for sure. 01:09:01.999 --> 01:09:02.359 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:09:02.450 --> 01:09:05.569 Rejane D'Espirac: But then when leaving, he told me that. 01:09:06.319 --> 01:09:09.829 And I, I, I didn't, I, I've never. 01:09:10.340 --> 01:09:15.229 Thought it as manipulative, and at that time it just, you know, 01:09:15.229 --> 01:09:17.120 it was the, the, the arrow. 01:09:17.180 --> 01:09:20.720 We just let Yeah, it's well, gut 01:09:20.720 --> 01:09:21.229 Rupert Isaacson: instinct. 01:09:21.229 --> 01:09:21.745 Yeah, sure. 01:09:21.774 --> 01:09:22.064 Yeah. 01:09:23.210 --> 01:09:26.480 Rejane D'Espirac: And so it was going from him, from the good part of him. 01:09:26.480 --> 01:09:27.140 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:09:27.950 --> 01:09:30.839 Rejane D'Espirac: And and when we decided to come back and all the 01:09:30.839 --> 01:09:37.930 message I, I was messaging by women, the, the, the doctors in in Vedic 01:09:37.930 --> 01:09:40.330 centers are not the therapists. 01:09:40.779 --> 01:09:40.840 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:09:41.260 --> 01:09:44.170 Rejane D'Espirac: They give orders, but the therapists, the one who 01:09:44.170 --> 01:09:46.149 give message are not the doctors. 01:09:46.479 --> 01:09:48.729 They're therapists, and it's India. 01:09:48.760 --> 01:09:52.930 So girls are messaged by women and boys. 01:09:53.005 --> 01:09:53.295 Ared. 01:09:53.295 --> 01:09:54.295 That's a perfect answer. 01:09:55.390 --> 01:09:55.480 Right. 01:09:55.480 --> 01:09:59.410 So they were just young girls, so they were in their twenties 01:09:59.410 --> 01:10:01.540 and they were just applying oils. 01:10:01.810 --> 01:10:01.870 Yeah. 01:10:02.620 --> 01:10:03.010 Rupert Isaacson: So 01:10:03.310 --> 01:10:05.775 Rejane D'Espirac: they were nothing, no, no threat, you know? 01:10:05.780 --> 01:10:06.160 Yes. 01:10:06.280 --> 01:10:06.550 Yeah. 01:10:06.610 --> 01:10:07.060 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:10:07.060 --> 01:10:12.219 This is good to know because it's good to be clear because I think there will 01:10:12.219 --> 01:10:16.780 be people listening and watching who are in that position right now, who 01:10:17.679 --> 01:10:19.959 are definitely wanting to have a baby. 01:10:20.289 --> 01:10:26.469 This is a not an unusual thing and are wondering, or, or, or maybe have other 01:10:26.650 --> 01:10:31.059 reproductive issues, endometriosis, things like this, you know, which is 01:10:31.059 --> 01:10:33.309 such a, you could say it's an epidemic. 01:10:33.309 --> 01:10:37.599 I'd say you could say it's a pandemic, I'd say endometriosis at this point. 01:10:38.200 --> 01:10:41.080 And it's interesting too, what you say to me. 01:10:41.860 --> 01:10:46.389 So, so anyway, Ayurveda, I would agree with you, is a really 01:10:47.620 --> 01:10:56.530 valid avenue to explore for any mental or physical dilemma. 01:10:57.219 --> 01:11:06.370 I have a friend who we work with in our horse boy and movement method world, 01:11:06.370 --> 01:11:12.460 who had such terrible endometriosis that she was being told at the age 01:11:12.460 --> 01:11:18.160 of 22, I think that she must have a full hysterectomy and had had 01:11:18.160 --> 01:11:19.570 some surgeries that had gone wrong. 01:11:19.570 --> 01:11:25.240 And, and this part of her rebelled and said, there's just no way 01:11:25.240 --> 01:11:29.889 that a 22-year-old, no, no, no, I need to find another way. 01:11:30.250 --> 01:11:33.910 And she ended up finding something called Maison. 01:11:34.030 --> 01:11:35.080 Have you heard of that? 01:11:35.290 --> 01:11:35.410 No. 01:11:35.440 --> 01:11:37.540 Which is a Muslim, it's a Sufi. 01:11:38.590 --> 01:11:38.679 Okay. 01:11:38.679 --> 01:11:44.710 Muslim tradition practiced by a small minority of Muslim women 01:11:45.040 --> 01:11:47.320 in, well, in her case, the uk. 01:11:47.710 --> 01:11:47.830 Okay. 01:11:48.880 --> 01:11:51.760 And it. 01:11:52.539 --> 01:11:59.589 Basically is a very light directed massage around the area of the 01:11:59.589 --> 01:12:02.200 ovaries and the lower abdomen. 01:12:03.820 --> 01:12:04.719 And 01:12:07.059 --> 01:12:15.789 this with a few sessions created such a breakthrough for my friend that 01:12:15.879 --> 01:12:18.669 it left her questioning her sanity. 01:12:19.539 --> 01:12:28.749 And then what was really interesting was the lady doing it said, oh, well I think 01:12:28.749 --> 01:12:31.780 now maybe you should go to my teacher. 01:12:31.809 --> 01:12:36.099 And my friend expected that to mean, you know, a sort of 01:12:36.400 --> 01:12:38.499 super duper Sufi somewhere. 01:12:38.499 --> 01:12:43.269 You know, the, the, the, the high super duper Sufi with the super duper hat, you 01:12:43.269 --> 01:12:45.730 know, that says I'm the super duper Sufi. 01:12:46.089 --> 01:12:51.249 And it wasn't, it was a naturopath. 01:12:51.339 --> 01:12:52.900 Well, really a homeopath 01:12:55.299 --> 01:13:01.329 living on the outskirts of Edinburgh, who is still a ex 01:13:01.329 --> 01:13:04.509 arm welshman, ex British army. 01:13:06.519 --> 01:13:11.980 He's the sort of bloke you'd meet in the pub and who would just tell you all 01:13:11.980 --> 01:13:20.440 kinds of stories about doing special ops in Serbia when that war was on and. 01:13:21.190 --> 01:13:24.519 Being a bit of a naughty boy and let's have another drink. 01:13:24.549 --> 01:13:29.170 And, and she said, yeah, no, this guy, you need to go to this guy. 01:13:30.400 --> 01:13:35.049 So my friend goes to this guy and even more, and I wa I, I then 01:13:35.049 --> 01:13:36.849 was so intrigued by this story. 01:13:36.849 --> 01:13:37.719 I had to meet this guy. 01:13:37.719 --> 01:13:41.950 So I, I went to, to Edinburgh and I watched him work and I'm like, oh my 01:13:41.950 --> 01:13:43.269 God, you really are the real thing. 01:13:44.049 --> 01:13:47.080 And it made me think about all the good shamans that I 01:13:47.080 --> 01:13:51.969 know or used to know, because unfortunately they're all dying now. 01:13:52.450 --> 01:13:55.210 You know, I'm reaching the age of, I'm almost 60, you know, 01:13:55.719 --> 01:13:57.160 although in my head I'm only three. 01:13:57.610 --> 01:14:03.500 And so I used to think that all those healers that I was so privileged to 01:14:03.500 --> 01:14:05.269 meet, you think they'll last forever. 01:14:05.330 --> 01:14:06.080 And they don't. 01:14:06.769 --> 01:14:11.059 There's the whole generational die off now, in particularly the Kalahari. 01:14:11.330 --> 01:14:13.820 And you wonder where the next generation is gonna come from. 01:14:14.339 --> 01:14:23.399 Anyway, all of those good healers are totally open to every other discipline. 01:14:24.179 --> 01:14:24.299 Yeah. 01:14:24.359 --> 01:14:27.959 Whether it's allopathic medicine, whether it's some other type of healing, 01:14:28.379 --> 01:14:32.909 they would never be constrained by some prejudice of their own culture. 01:14:33.659 --> 01:14:38.279 And I realized that I was seeing within my culture. 01:14:38.909 --> 01:14:46.469 A reflection of that from this Sufi Muslim tradition over to homeopathy, 01:14:46.469 --> 01:14:50.940 but homeopathy through the lens of British army down the pub. 01:14:51.569 --> 01:14:54.329 And it comes back to this universality, doesn't it? 01:14:54.329 --> 01:14:57.779 It comes back to this and what's universality, but relationship 01:14:57.779 --> 01:14:58.979 and what's relationship but love. 01:14:59.639 --> 01:14:59.789 Rejane D'Espirac: Hmm. 01:15:00.179 --> 01:15:03.929 This is why the, the book Baby At Last, at Last Baby, it's not about 01:15:03.929 --> 01:15:05.909 Ayurveda, it's not about technique. 01:15:06.009 --> 01:15:08.019 It's about what is Yes. 01:15:08.049 --> 01:15:11.835 Behind and, well, what I call love in a way. 01:15:12.130 --> 01:15:14.410 It's people give love in a, in a good way. 01:15:14.410 --> 01:15:16.389 They give attention, they give presents. 01:15:17.080 --> 01:15:17.110 Rupert Isaacson: Mm. 01:15:17.349 --> 01:15:21.489 Rejane D'Espirac: It's yes, they gave you the power to change something in a way. 01:15:22.029 --> 01:15:23.209 And yes, of course. 01:15:23.209 --> 01:15:30.399 So it's being bo or the book is not about saying I everything, or it's gonna 01:15:30.399 --> 01:15:32.289 heal yourself because it's complex. 01:15:32.649 --> 01:15:38.759 And the, but there is, there might be a way, and you have to find new way to find 01:15:38.759 --> 01:15:44.079 the good person to meet to create moment with him or, and something would happen. 01:15:44.709 --> 01:15:48.279 Rupert Isaacson: I think what's also true is that you have to move your ars. 01:15:48.939 --> 01:15:50.439 You have to move your physical ass. 01:15:50.619 --> 01:15:55.699 I'm a great believer in the power of pilgrimage and sacred journeying. 01:15:56.239 --> 01:15:59.089 And whether or not you can do that in your own. 01:15:59.599 --> 01:16:01.939 You don't have to get on an airplane to do that. 01:16:02.539 --> 01:16:05.599 There are so many sacred sites on planet earth. 01:16:06.089 --> 01:16:12.599 There will for sure be ones within a day's travel of where you are, no matter 01:16:12.599 --> 01:16:14.099 where you are sitting on the planet. 01:16:14.909 --> 01:16:18.989 But I do think there's something about the contract that you make with the 01:16:18.989 --> 01:16:28.259 universe to say, I am willing to make the physical effort to try to find, 01:16:29.009 --> 01:16:33.449 to make a quest for healing, for love. 01:16:33.779 --> 01:16:37.829 And usually that does involve looking outside of your own 01:16:38.339 --> 01:16:44.519 immediate culture because chances are you have not found it there. 01:16:45.869 --> 01:16:51.179 But what is interesting is that not immediate culture could still be within 01:16:51.419 --> 01:16:53.699 England or France or the United States. 01:16:53.909 --> 01:16:56.369 Because if you think about France, for example, where 01:16:56.369 --> 01:17:00.929 you're sitting, how many parallel cultures are there just in France? 01:17:01.379 --> 01:17:05.399 And that's before you even consider immigrants from other countries 01:17:05.399 --> 01:17:09.419 bringing their traditions just within traditional indigenous frenchness. 01:17:09.419 --> 01:17:15.599 If you think about each region of France and its regional culture, 01:17:15.599 --> 01:17:18.539 and then within those cultures, the subcultures of the subcultures, the 01:17:18.539 --> 01:17:23.609 subcultures, you don't have to move geographically very far necessarily, 01:17:23.819 --> 01:17:26.159 but you do need to move outside. 01:17:27.179 --> 01:17:31.164 Of your immediate familiarity zone that I think is true. 01:17:32.434 --> 01:17:35.069 Rejane D'Espirac: It's the first step is inside in a way. 01:17:35.159 --> 01:17:35.219 Yeah. 01:17:35.219 --> 01:17:40.029 And it's opening door and as I said, the, the, the Indian Dr. 01:17:40.029 --> 01:17:43.899 May be held because when he said, why are you so sad? 01:17:43.959 --> 01:17:46.029 He, he, he cracked my mask. 01:17:46.059 --> 01:17:54.439 He opened the door and said, okay, just, and this opening door, to be 01:17:54.469 --> 01:17:58.129 open to something else and maybe to change your system to your 01:17:58.129 --> 01:18:00.889 frozen system, it's a first step. 01:18:01.159 --> 01:18:02.089 Just open the door. 01:18:02.149 --> 01:18:04.729 Rupert Isaacson: And did he expect answers from you to that question? 01:18:04.729 --> 01:18:06.229 Or was it more of a rhetorical question? 01:18:06.349 --> 01:18:06.564 Oh, no, 01:18:06.564 --> 01:18:07.159 Rejane D'Espirac: no, no, no, no. 01:18:07.189 --> 01:18:07.519 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, 01:18:07.519 --> 01:18:08.899 Rejane D'Espirac: and I, I don't have the answer. 01:18:09.079 --> 01:18:09.409 Yes. 01:18:09.409 --> 01:18:13.639 I can't say now, like 15 years after why I was sad. 01:18:13.729 --> 01:18:14.929 This is not the point. 01:18:15.479 --> 01:18:15.809 Well, 01:18:15.809 --> 01:18:20.729 Rupert Isaacson: it, you know, we talked about, I, I just said endometriosis 01:18:20.729 --> 01:18:22.409 seems to be a bit of a pandemic. 01:18:23.039 --> 01:18:25.619 I do feel that sadness is a pandemic. 01:18:26.099 --> 01:18:26.369 Mm-hmm. 01:18:26.579 --> 01:18:34.469 And I agree with you that most of us do not know actually quite why we are so sad. 01:18:34.469 --> 01:18:36.479 But I think I do have the answer. 01:18:36.959 --> 01:18:37.229 Hmm. 01:18:37.829 --> 01:18:42.509 I think it's because obviously I could be wrong 'cause I'm Rupert and I'm often 01:18:42.509 --> 01:18:44.859 wrong, but in fact I'm mostly wrong. 01:18:45.439 --> 01:18:49.849 Some people would say always, but let's say there are some small amounts of 01:18:49.849 --> 01:18:55.219 time where perhaps I'm not as wrong as I might be in other times, because I've 01:18:55.219 --> 01:18:59.689 been so lucky to spend time with the Sun and the Bushman in the Kalahari. 01:19:00.739 --> 01:19:09.799 One thing for sure that I observed is that when human beings live in their original 01:19:09.799 --> 01:19:18.049 state, which is hunting and gathering with enough resources around and enough control 01:19:18.049 --> 01:19:20.959 of the resources that life is okay. 01:19:23.269 --> 01:19:28.429 The base state that one observes emotionally is a 01:19:28.429 --> 01:19:29.899 kind of a quiet happiness. 01:19:30.799 --> 01:19:30.829 Mm. 01:19:32.089 --> 01:19:36.499 And that also, okay, we're living in our natural habitat. 01:19:36.499 --> 01:19:38.209 We're eating all the stuff we should eat. 01:19:38.209 --> 01:19:41.509 We're have relationship because we're in, we, we, we are, we are 01:19:41.509 --> 01:19:43.099 not in competition with each other. 01:19:44.149 --> 01:19:50.929 Because in that situation, you are the middle of the food chain. 01:19:53.569 --> 01:20:00.139 What becomes of paramount importance is that the group stays together because if 01:20:00.139 --> 01:20:07.339 the group fragments because of conflict, everybody will get eaten by hyenas. 01:20:07.549 --> 01:20:09.979 That is just gonna happen. 01:20:10.699 --> 01:20:11.659 So. 01:20:12.394 --> 01:20:20.104 The most important thing becomes conflict resolution and a constant state of 01:20:20.104 --> 01:20:25.714 conflict resolution so that the healers that I was working with out there, people 01:20:25.714 --> 01:20:31.954 like besa, people like Kunta and these guys, what they spent most of their time 01:20:31.954 --> 01:20:37.084 doing was not healing physical ailments. 01:20:37.264 --> 01:20:38.974 They did do that, of course. 01:20:39.754 --> 01:20:47.314 Mostly what they were doing was about every 10 days washing the psychic dirty 01:20:47.314 --> 01:20:52.654 laundry of the group, the whole group getting together just with that intention 01:20:53.944 --> 01:20:58.024 in order to make sure that conflict never went beyond a certain point. 01:20:58.594 --> 01:21:05.384 And because nobody is overpopulating because hunting and gathering people 01:21:05.384 --> 01:21:10.814 don't need to put a crop in the ground and get a crop outta the 01:21:10.814 --> 01:21:12.764 ground, which takes a lot of people. 01:21:12.914 --> 01:21:18.554 Agriculture takes a lot of people hunting and gathering does not, so you don't 01:21:18.554 --> 01:21:23.654 need to overpopulate, you don't need the men to have more power than the 01:21:23.654 --> 01:21:29.174 women because in agriculture, the men want to have control over the uterus 01:21:29.294 --> 01:21:33.254 because they need lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of people to do, and 01:21:33.254 --> 01:21:35.114 then actually they need slaves as well. 01:21:35.114 --> 01:21:40.004 And you get war and you get but in hunting and gathering you, there's no economic. 01:21:40.334 --> 01:21:42.824 Imperative for any of this. 01:21:43.694 --> 01:21:53.504 So what you observe is that people are kind of okay most of the time and the 01:21:53.504 --> 01:21:58.784 predator is never, this is interesting. 01:21:58.994 --> 01:22:01.034 Your fellow human, Hmm. 01:22:01.604 --> 01:22:03.704 There can be conflict to a certain degree. 01:22:03.794 --> 01:22:06.104 There can be arguments, there can be this, there can be that. 01:22:06.524 --> 01:22:11.894 But no one's going break into your heart and kill you or torture you or no. 01:22:11.984 --> 01:22:12.524 Uh uh. 01:22:13.724 --> 01:22:14.924 That's the hyenas job. 01:22:15.014 --> 01:22:16.064 That's not the human's job 01:22:18.224 --> 01:22:19.244 in our society. 01:22:20.714 --> 01:22:24.914 The predator is only the fellow human. 01:22:25.124 --> 01:22:27.434 We've gotten rid of all the other predators. 01:22:28.814 --> 01:22:31.964 Instead of a society of conflict resolution, we now have a 01:22:31.964 --> 01:22:35.024 society of conflict creation. 01:22:35.504 --> 01:22:36.704 'cause it's good for business. 01:22:38.744 --> 01:22:40.364 We wanna sell arms, you need wars. 01:22:41.734 --> 01:22:44.674 Agriculture itself breeds conflict because it breeds 01:22:44.674 --> 01:22:46.534 competition for land and resources. 01:22:47.944 --> 01:22:49.894 So why are we so sad? 01:22:50.404 --> 01:22:56.824 Well, for 10,000 years, more or less, since the creation of agriculture, 01:22:58.924 --> 01:23:05.164 a large proportion of us on the planet moved away from this authentic, if 01:23:05.164 --> 01:23:07.024 you like, state, original state. 01:23:08.434 --> 01:23:10.264 Into this state that we now know. 01:23:10.414 --> 01:23:12.814 So even though you are sitting there in Paris leading a really 01:23:12.874 --> 01:23:16.024 interesting self-actualized life, you are your own boss. 01:23:16.024 --> 01:23:19.564 You have control of your uterus, you have control of your finances, you have 01:23:19.564 --> 01:23:23.524 control of your career, you have control of your destiny to a large degree. 01:23:23.674 --> 01:23:27.724 You are, I would say, pretty professionally and artistically 01:23:27.724 --> 01:23:29.104 and creatively fulfilled. 01:23:29.464 --> 01:23:32.404 Of course, you have things you still want to do, lots of things. 01:23:32.614 --> 01:23:35.224 Sometimes you're a bit frustrated and Yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:23:35.404 --> 01:23:40.654 But basically you're doing, you are living life on Rajan, Raja's 01:23:40.654 --> 01:23:42.664 terms, and yet you are sad. 01:23:43.024 --> 01:23:49.504 And I'm living life largely on Rupert's terms, and I'm still sad because 01:23:49.924 --> 01:23:56.344 we are not in our natural habitat, both physically and emotionally. 01:23:58.054 --> 01:24:00.934 This, I think, sends us completely insane. 01:24:01.714 --> 01:24:07.714 And I think we are maddened with pain so that when somebody says, I see you. 01:24:08.344 --> 01:24:09.454 I see your pain. 01:24:09.994 --> 01:24:11.374 Why are you so sad? 01:24:12.034 --> 01:24:13.174 If I ask you that question? 01:24:13.174 --> 01:24:15.034 I don't expect you to answer it. 01:24:16.564 --> 01:24:18.604 I can see where he was coming from, that guy. 01:24:18.634 --> 01:24:23.284 It's more like, I see your sadness perhaps, and the sadness is my 01:24:23.284 --> 01:24:29.434 sadness, and we have no choice really in this sadness, but we can offer 01:24:29.434 --> 01:24:32.164 each other support within that. 01:24:32.164 --> 01:24:32.944 We can do that. 01:24:32.944 --> 01:24:33.424 We can do, 01:24:34.509 --> 01:24:34.924 Rejane D'Espirac: oh, oh. 01:24:36.514 --> 01:24:42.354 I don't know about Well, you, you, you answer why you are so sad. 01:24:42.444 --> 01:24:48.624 I have never thought about it that way, but my answer that's very personal, it's 01:24:48.674 --> 01:24:52.514 I'm always sad when I feel is isolated. 01:24:53.054 --> 01:24:53.144 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:24:53.944 --> 01:24:57.404 Rejane D'Espirac: When I hit part of something, which has, which is as a 01:24:57.404 --> 01:25:04.424 sense for me when in a way I'm less sun when I forget myself in something. 01:25:05.684 --> 01:25:05.744 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:25:05.744 --> 01:25:05.999 A hundred percent. 01:25:05.999 --> 01:25:06.254 And why, 01:25:06.314 --> 01:25:09.314 Rejane D'Espirac: why service is probably the most important. 01:25:09.504 --> 01:25:15.514 Or it's a huge part because it's a, if I feel like Ian controlling her life 01:25:15.934 --> 01:25:21.684 and doing beautiful things, and it can be satisfying, but I can be sad. 01:25:22.254 --> 01:25:22.464 Rupert Isaacson: Yes. 01:25:22.464 --> 01:25:22.614 'cause 01:25:22.614 --> 01:25:26.574 Rejane D'Espirac: it's always about me creating something for my 01:25:26.604 --> 01:25:28.254 own glory or something like that. 01:25:28.259 --> 01:25:28.349 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:25:28.349 --> 01:25:30.414 That is in its own nature, isolating. 01:25:30.414 --> 01:25:30.924 You're right. 01:25:30.954 --> 01:25:31.224 Rejane D'Espirac: Yeah. 01:25:31.224 --> 01:25:31.469 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah. 01:25:31.764 --> 01:25:35.214 Rejane D'Espirac: And in, and it's just, this is why I so much 01:25:35.214 --> 01:25:39.564 love to be on the ground, to write a story or to film a story, to, 01:25:39.834 --> 01:25:42.054 to feel people I really care of. 01:25:42.054 --> 01:25:48.864 And I, people, I really find amazing because in that moments, 01:25:48.864 --> 01:25:51.774 in these moments, I am not there. 01:25:54.504 --> 01:25:55.764 I'm just part of it. 01:25:56.604 --> 01:25:58.014 I'm just in. 01:26:00.399 --> 01:26:05.479 And this, this moment, I just feel connected to everything and part 01:26:05.479 --> 01:26:11.489 of everything and resign as not to be there as a frame human being. 01:26:11.489 --> 01:26:15.879 And when it's more softened, more, it's more tender. 01:26:16.419 --> 01:26:16.749 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:26:17.889 --> 01:26:22.589 If you made it this far into the podcast, then I'm guessing you're somebody 01:26:22.599 --> 01:26:27.579 that, like me, loves to read books about not just how people have achieved 01:26:27.589 --> 01:26:33.589 self actualization, but particularly about the relationship with nature. 01:26:34.039 --> 01:26:37.219 Spirituality, life, the universe, and everything. 01:26:37.959 --> 01:26:40.909 And I'd like to draw your attention to my books. 01:26:40.919 --> 01:26:45.599 If you would like to read the story of how we even arrived here, perhaps 01:26:45.599 --> 01:26:50.059 you'd like to check out the two New York Times bestsellers, The Horseboy 01:26:50.759 --> 01:26:55.729 and The Long Ride Home, and come on an adventure with us and see what engendered, 01:26:55.789 --> 01:26:57.939 what started Live Free Ride Free. 01:26:57.959 --> 01:27:01.739 And before we go back to the podcast, also check out The Healing 01:27:01.739 --> 01:27:04.229 Land, which tells the story of. 01:27:04.934 --> 01:27:10.324 My years spent in the Kalahari with the Sun, Bushmen, hunter gatherer people 01:27:10.324 --> 01:27:14.484 there, and all that they taught me, and mentored me in, and all that I learned. 01:27:14.734 --> 01:27:15.994 Come on that adventure with me. 01:27:16.019 --> 01:27:17.309 Rejane D'Espirac: I feel connected to life. 01:27:17.309 --> 01:27:20.399 So I don't have to be sad because I'm just part of life. 01:27:22.469 --> 01:27:22.889 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:27:23.009 --> 01:27:27.359 And I, I I guess from the sun or the Bushman point of view, it's the same. 01:27:27.359 --> 01:27:27.569 Right? 01:27:27.569 --> 01:27:30.599 It's service to the group, service to the community. 01:27:31.289 --> 01:27:32.369 I do agree with you. 01:27:32.369 --> 01:27:37.979 I think it's not possible to find happiness unless you have service. 01:27:38.849 --> 01:27:44.279 You can maybe, perhaps, you know, it, early stages of motherhood, for example, 01:27:44.279 --> 01:27:47.849 can be very, or fatherhood too can be very fulfilling because you're very 01:27:47.849 --> 01:27:49.799 much in service to this other being. 01:27:51.029 --> 01:27:54.539 Rejane D'Espirac: And it can be very tricky too, because you are so much in 01:27:54.539 --> 01:27:56.729 service, so you have to forget yourself. 01:27:56.879 --> 01:27:57.209 Rupert Isaacson: Indeed. 01:27:57.209 --> 01:27:57.389 There wrote 01:27:57.584 --> 01:27:58.864 Rejane D'Espirac: a book about that too. 01:27:58.964 --> 01:27:59.384 Rupert Isaacson: Indeed. 01:27:59.759 --> 01:28:02.369 But it's both, it's both at the same time. 01:28:02.369 --> 01:28:02.459 Right. 01:28:03.029 --> 01:28:06.899 And I think, I think too, that people living in hunting and 01:28:06.899 --> 01:28:08.939 gathering groups would say that, so, 01:28:11.039 --> 01:28:13.499 because in that life. 01:28:14.114 --> 01:28:21.104 There are not so many opportunities as there are in our society for acting 01:28:21.374 --> 01:28:27.014 completely from your own self desire. 01:28:27.584 --> 01:28:27.674 Mm-hmm. 01:28:30.284 --> 01:28:35.714 When an opportunity comes for that, you take it because it's a relatively rare 01:28:35.714 --> 01:28:41.624 thing, like when you eat some food with a lot of fat in it, if you are living 01:28:41.624 --> 01:28:45.614 in the forest, you're gonna eat it because don't get so many opportunities. 01:28:45.614 --> 01:28:48.284 Or if you find something with a lot of sugar in it, you're 01:28:48.329 --> 01:28:50.324 going to eat it because there aren't so many opportunities. 01:28:50.474 --> 01:28:55.874 So we have a biological drive for Yeah. 01:28:55.994 --> 01:28:58.304 Self gratification, sugar and fat. 01:28:59.054 --> 01:29:02.294 Because normally these things are rare resources. 01:29:02.564 --> 01:29:06.754 Now suddenly they're everywhere and we can spend our whole lives. 01:29:06.754 --> 01:29:07.204 We're looking for something 01:29:07.204 --> 01:29:07.534 Rejane D'Espirac: else. 01:29:07.624 --> 01:29:07.924 Yes. 01:29:08.014 --> 01:29:08.074 Yeah. 01:29:08.134 --> 01:29:09.874 And maybe relationship are good. 01:29:09.874 --> 01:29:16.354 Relationship are rare in our society, so we, we see them as magic and as so much. 01:29:16.354 --> 01:29:16.444 Rupert Isaacson: Yes. 01:29:17.224 --> 01:29:17.644 Rejane D'Espirac: Yes. 01:29:18.214 --> 01:29:22.624 It's always moments momentums when you just strike and say, oh my 01:29:22.624 --> 01:29:24.304 God, I'm alive, and it's so good. 01:29:24.814 --> 01:29:25.204 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:29:25.204 --> 01:29:25.324 You know? 01:29:25.954 --> 01:29:26.014 Rejane D'Espirac: Yeah. 01:29:27.089 --> 01:29:31.199 And for anything, because it's, you have a fat, fat food or 01:29:31.259 --> 01:29:33.569 because you meet someone amazing. 01:29:33.569 --> 01:29:36.599 And, oh, because you see, this is my last latest book. 01:29:36.599 --> 01:29:38.459 It's about flowers and just to say. 01:29:39.389 --> 01:29:41.579 Life is amazing because flowers exists. 01:29:41.579 --> 01:29:42.269 The book is about that. 01:29:42.269 --> 01:29:42.629 Oh, 01:29:42.994 --> 01:29:43.679 Rupert Isaacson: I like this. 01:29:43.679 --> 01:29:46.499 Okay, tell us about your latest book about flowers. 01:29:46.499 --> 01:29:48.839 Don't just say, oh, and I've got this latest book about flowers. 01:29:48.844 --> 01:29:50.279 No, but it's say, what's the fucking book? 01:29:50.279 --> 01:29:51.089 Come on, tell us. 01:29:51.419 --> 01:29:55.109 Rejane D'Espirac: Because it's a book about amaze being amazed by flowers, 01:29:55.109 --> 01:29:57.284 because flowers say never about This is 01:29:57.284 --> 01:29:58.349 Rupert Isaacson: a beautiful idea. 01:29:58.559 --> 01:30:03.019 Rejane D'Espirac: And so well, when suddenly you see a flower, she's, 01:30:03.409 --> 01:30:05.059 it's on your balcony for yours. 01:30:05.059 --> 01:30:07.204 But suddenly you see it, really 01:30:07.384 --> 01:30:07.604 Rupert Isaacson: see, 01:30:08.239 --> 01:30:10.969 Rejane D'Espirac: and then you've got this moment of connection and 01:30:11.389 --> 01:30:14.149 saying, oh my God, life is so magic. 01:30:14.569 --> 01:30:16.369 And so the book is about that. 01:30:16.969 --> 01:30:23.709 Okay, once I was, trek in the mountains in France, and suddenly I saw flowers 01:30:24.249 --> 01:30:26.319 because there are flowers, nothing else. 01:30:26.379 --> 01:30:29.269 And I realized oh, creative. 01:30:29.509 --> 01:30:33.319 Oh, adaptive, oh, everything. 01:30:33.319 --> 01:30:35.779 Life is just because flower exists. 01:30:35.899 --> 01:30:38.269 And so I, I wrote a book about that. 01:30:38.269 --> 01:30:40.249 It's about present moment. 01:30:40.249 --> 01:30:41.749 It's about beauty. 01:30:41.779 --> 01:30:45.469 It's about diversity, it's about creativity. 01:30:45.469 --> 01:30:49.909 To be able to be alive in a very strange. 01:30:50.999 --> 01:30:51.869 Environments. 01:30:51.869 --> 01:30:53.339 It's about links. 01:30:53.399 --> 01:30:57.149 Because in our society, flowers are the symbol of links. 01:30:57.179 --> 01:31:03.509 You offer flowers, you offer flowers for marriage, you offer flowers for funerals. 01:31:03.509 --> 01:31:04.859 You, we offer flowers. 01:31:04.859 --> 01:31:04.934 You also 01:31:04.939 --> 01:31:06.239 Rupert Isaacson: offer flowers to the divine. 01:31:06.239 --> 01:31:07.259 You offer flowers to God. 01:31:07.259 --> 01:31:07.349 Yes. 01:31:07.349 --> 01:31:08.694 You offer flowers to, yeah. 01:31:08.954 --> 01:31:10.259 Rejane D'Espirac: In a symbol of links. 01:31:10.259 --> 01:31:13.189 The link between wa and that's the symbol of everything. 01:31:13.189 --> 01:31:14.359 That's a symbol of life. 01:31:14.809 --> 01:31:18.139 And so flowers are everywhere. 01:31:18.139 --> 01:31:20.539 Well, but suddenly you're gonna see a flower. 01:31:21.889 --> 01:31:23.419 You are gonna really see it. 01:31:23.659 --> 01:31:25.729 And this moment 01:31:28.009 --> 01:31:31.969 put, put us away from sadness because we can't be sad. 01:31:32.779 --> 01:31:37.459 If we are able to see a flower for what it is. 01:31:37.969 --> 01:31:39.709 Rupert Isaacson: I think you are talking about the process of awe. 01:31:40.849 --> 01:31:41.689 A WE. 01:31:41.694 --> 01:31:41.754 Yes. 01:31:41.754 --> 01:31:42.354 Ab absolutely. 01:31:42.494 --> 01:31:42.714 Yes. 01:31:43.099 --> 01:31:43.489 Yeah. 01:31:43.969 --> 01:31:49.219 And we're used to thinking of awe as when you're, something's much bigger than you. 01:31:49.249 --> 01:31:50.599 You are under the night sky. 01:31:50.599 --> 01:31:52.699 There's a mountain, there's the ocean, whatever. 01:31:53.299 --> 01:31:56.869 One of the interesting things about working with horses is you are in a 01:31:56.869 --> 01:32:02.839 constant state of awe because they're dangerous, they're beautiful, they're 01:32:02.869 --> 01:32:05.029 mysterious, they're connected to you. 01:32:05.029 --> 01:32:06.169 They're all of these things. 01:32:06.169 --> 01:32:06.349 Yeah. 01:32:06.739 --> 01:32:09.259 But I love the idea 'cause it is true. 01:32:10.864 --> 01:32:15.574 That I think yes, flowers do bring us into a state of all. 01:32:16.514 --> 01:32:21.464 You cannot walk past a florist's shop and not breathe in the scent 01:32:21.674 --> 01:32:23.624 and look at the flowers and go, whoa. 01:32:25.154 --> 01:32:27.044 And be in worship a little bit. 01:32:27.794 --> 01:32:27.944 Yeah. 01:32:28.314 --> 01:32:29.509 But okay. 01:32:29.509 --> 01:32:33.979 This kind of book is a departure though, for you because you, 01:32:34.459 --> 01:32:36.409 this, what's the name of the book? 01:32:37.769 --> 01:32:37.949 Rejane D'Espirac: In 01:32:38.079 --> 01:32:38.884 Rupert Isaacson: in French First 01:32:40.219 --> 01:32:42.899 Rejane D'Espirac: Discrete, the flowers, the discrete power of flowers. 01:32:42.899 --> 01:32:43.379 Rupert Isaacson: Discrete power 01:32:43.759 --> 01:32:44.589 Rejane D'Espirac: of flowers, of flowers. 01:32:45.754 --> 01:32:49.024 And of course it's political because you Well, that's what I 01:32:49.024 --> 01:32:49.384 Rupert Isaacson: was gonna ask. 01:32:49.384 --> 01:32:49.744 Flower 01:32:49.744 --> 01:32:50.254 Rejane D'Espirac: power. 01:32:50.254 --> 01:32:50.704 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 01:32:51.004 --> 01:32:52.269 Because you know, and flowers 01:32:52.409 --> 01:32:54.884 Rejane D'Espirac: are also part of zen, you know, yeah. 01:32:54.914 --> 01:32:59.164 Ikebana, the, the art of creating how do you say that? 01:32:59.389 --> 01:33:00.084 B you know, yes, 01:33:00.314 --> 01:33:00.824 Rupert Isaacson: yes, yes. 01:33:00.944 --> 01:33:02.804 Flo flower arrangement. 01:33:02.804 --> 01:33:03.134 Yes. 01:33:03.194 --> 01:33:03.254 Rejane D'Espirac: Yeah. 01:33:03.254 --> 01:33:03.644 Flora. 01:33:03.674 --> 01:33:04.994 It's, it's zen art. 01:33:04.994 --> 01:33:05.084 Yes. 01:33:05.234 --> 01:33:06.239 It's called Buddhism. 01:33:06.824 --> 01:33:10.724 And so the, the book goes from flower power Yes. 01:33:10.814 --> 01:33:11.834 To the zen art. 01:33:11.924 --> 01:33:13.274 And, but it's same thing. 01:33:13.634 --> 01:33:19.664 It's maybe once, as you said, we can react to things by hangar and 01:33:19.664 --> 01:33:21.464 we can react to things by beauty. 01:33:22.149 --> 01:33:22.679 Rupert Isaacson: It's so true. 01:33:23.059 --> 01:33:23.479 Rejane D'Espirac: Mm-hmm. 01:33:23.699 --> 01:33:25.274 Rupert Isaacson: And that it's a choice, isn't it? 01:33:25.574 --> 01:33:28.694 And of course, we can be angry because somebody is destroying the beauty. 01:33:29.804 --> 01:33:35.474 You talk about service, obviously it's a service to produce a book about 01:33:35.774 --> 01:33:40.934 flowers that reminds us to be in a state of awe and happiness and so forth. 01:33:41.264 --> 01:33:44.444 Where is the service element though, in your, in, with flowers? 01:33:44.504 --> 01:33:48.164 Are you now becoming a nature active activist as well? 01:33:48.164 --> 01:33:48.854 Oh, way, yes. 01:33:49.519 --> 01:33:49.939 Oh, good. 01:33:50.329 --> 01:33:50.899 Tell me how 01:33:53.144 --> 01:33:55.424 Rejane D'Espirac: probably the, the book is the first step. 01:33:56.114 --> 01:33:56.174 Yeah. 01:33:56.414 --> 01:34:01.934 By writing more about that in magazines and you know, I, I've, I've investigated 01:34:02.264 --> 01:34:06.794 a lot about healing and about wellness and about consciousness, about who we are. 01:34:07.484 --> 01:34:14.774 But now I've, I, I, I would never say I know because I, but now 01:34:14.774 --> 01:34:18.694 I'm very comfortable with that and I have no question anymore 01:34:19.144 --> 01:34:21.364 about who I am or who we are. 01:34:22.144 --> 01:34:23.044 This is not a question. 01:34:23.044 --> 01:34:28.564 Now, maybe I open to something else and maybe protecting nature 01:34:28.624 --> 01:34:30.994 and taking care of environment. 01:34:30.994 --> 01:34:31.804 It's part of it. 01:34:32.554 --> 01:34:35.334 Rupert Isaacson: Well, if you trace your story and you look at, we started 01:34:35.334 --> 01:34:39.054 with Bob Paul, and I know obviously your story in activism and writing 01:34:39.054 --> 01:34:41.454 and filmmaking goes back before that. 01:34:42.054 --> 01:34:46.374 We need a 10 part series to cover everything in Raja's life. 01:34:46.704 --> 01:34:53.084 But what has been, theme running through the whole thing has been plants. 01:34:54.284 --> 01:34:54.494 Yeah. 01:34:54.704 --> 01:34:55.184 Right. 01:34:55.394 --> 01:34:55.604 Yeah. 01:34:55.874 --> 01:34:56.654 Plants are flowers. 01:34:56.954 --> 01:34:58.904 Ayurveda is plants. 01:34:59.204 --> 01:35:00.164 The free clinic. 01:35:00.584 --> 01:35:01.274 The garden. 01:35:01.634 --> 01:35:01.964 Yeah. 01:35:02.384 --> 01:35:05.504 The healing power of plant medicine. 01:35:05.834 --> 01:35:09.819 It's the, the, Hmm. 01:35:10.184 --> 01:35:10.754 Plants. 01:35:10.754 --> 01:35:14.444 You are, you are, you are, you are going into, you're talking 01:35:14.444 --> 01:35:16.784 about creating environments. 01:35:17.684 --> 01:35:22.814 That's plants and human life, as we know mm-hmm. 01:35:22.814 --> 01:35:24.284 Cannot exist without oxygen. 01:35:24.584 --> 01:35:26.834 And oxygen cannot happen without plants. 01:35:26.834 --> 01:35:27.464 Mm-hmm. 01:35:27.914 --> 01:35:31.754 So, and plants cannot happen without flowers because 01:35:31.754 --> 01:35:33.134 flowers can make more plants. 01:35:34.244 --> 01:35:37.489 So then we need bees, flies, bees. 01:35:37.629 --> 01:35:38.774 We need that. 01:35:38.774 --> 01:35:40.004 And if we need them, we need that. 01:35:40.004 --> 01:35:45.674 And if we need them, and it, that's lovely for me because, you know, in my, in my 01:35:45.674 --> 01:35:54.284 world, my activism was also human rights, but it was human rights for land rights. 01:35:54.584 --> 01:35:58.274 And it was land rights for hunter gatherers who look after the 01:35:58.274 --> 01:36:02.384 land, the plants on behalf of all of us, because they don't. 01:36:02.714 --> 01:36:03.434 Exploit them. 01:36:03.434 --> 01:36:06.434 They know truly how to conserve them. 01:36:07.214 --> 01:36:13.394 And so we sort of rely on these people as the custodians because we go around 01:36:13.394 --> 01:36:15.944 destroying the very thing that we need. 01:36:16.514 --> 01:36:20.864 So if it's very dear to my heart, and actually I just got a phone call. 01:36:21.104 --> 01:36:26.504 I've been out of that game for a while and I just got a phone call last week asking 01:36:26.504 --> 01:36:29.024 me to come back in for the next stage. 01:36:29.414 --> 01:36:34.424 And it's lovely because it means more protecting plants through people, 01:36:34.844 --> 01:36:36.224 through the people that protect plants. 01:36:36.284 --> 01:36:38.324 So I'm a hundred percent in agreement with you and I've 01:36:38.324 --> 01:36:40.874 always been in love with plants. 01:36:41.064 --> 01:36:46.674 My earliest memory that I have is of walking in the gar my 01:36:46.674 --> 01:36:48.894 parents' house garden in London. 01:36:49.314 --> 01:36:52.374 I think I must have been between three and five. 01:36:53.784 --> 01:36:58.494 And I know it's a Sunday morning because the parents always used to 01:36:58.494 --> 01:37:02.094 sleep in on a Sunday morning and we weren't allowed to disturb them. 01:37:02.334 --> 01:37:05.994 So we'd wander around, you know, kids wake up at, you know, 5:00 AM so you're 01:37:05.994 --> 01:37:07.704 wandering around wondering what to do. 01:37:08.094 --> 01:37:13.934 And I remember walking, it was a sunny morning and the sun was 01:37:13.934 --> 01:37:18.704 shining on the bricks of the wall, the old wall in the garden. 01:37:19.424 --> 01:37:25.094 And there were flowers growing out of the wall and bees buzzing around the flowers. 01:37:25.394 --> 01:37:27.344 And I heard God speak to me. 01:37:28.049 --> 01:37:31.499 Directly and clearly through the flowers and the bees. 01:37:32.099 --> 01:37:37.919 And it's, and it, I can't tell you the words of the conversation but I can 01:37:37.919 --> 01:37:47.249 tell you that it was a conversation about being welcome and being happy 01:37:47.249 --> 01:37:52.409 to see me there and excited for whatever part I was going to play. 01:37:53.269 --> 01:37:59.719 And it, it felt, yeah, it was a welcome, really. 01:38:00.469 --> 01:38:02.149 And I've, I'm in love with trees. 01:38:02.149 --> 01:38:03.169 I've always been in love with trees. 01:38:03.169 --> 01:38:05.509 In fact, look in my pocket right now, currently 01:38:07.849 --> 01:38:10.369 I'm carrying acorns. 01:38:11.149 --> 01:38:11.479 Oh, really? 01:38:11.479 --> 01:38:14.209 So I plant, it's, it's November. 01:38:14.719 --> 01:38:15.619 I'm in Spain. 01:38:16.309 --> 01:38:17.779 All of the acorns are dropping. 01:38:18.439 --> 01:38:24.729 And so what I do, and I've been doing this for about 30 years, is I go into the 01:38:24.729 --> 01:38:32.019 city where there are oaks and chestnut trees and things like that, dropping their 01:38:32.199 --> 01:38:35.019 acorns and their nuts on the concrete. 01:38:36.159 --> 01:38:37.539 And I fill up bags. 01:38:37.899 --> 01:38:38.139 Mm-hmm. 01:38:38.559 --> 01:38:41.019 And I, you only have to push them in this deep. 01:38:41.274 --> 01:38:41.564 Rejane D'Espirac: Okay. 01:38:42.744 --> 01:38:43.524 And them, and 01:38:43.529 --> 01:38:51.009 Rupert Isaacson: I did it along all the fences of my land and my friend's land. 01:38:51.009 --> 01:38:54.009 So you don't need to own land to do this, but you need to know 01:38:54.009 --> 01:38:55.179 someone who has a bit of land. 01:38:56.109 --> 01:39:00.219 And I try to plant a tree for every day of my life. 01:39:00.759 --> 01:39:00.819 Hmm. 01:39:01.659 --> 01:39:04.959 And I've been doing that for, 'cause it, it's relatively easy. 01:39:04.959 --> 01:39:09.519 You can, you can gather like 3000 acorns and then people 01:39:09.519 --> 01:39:10.689 say, oh, what are you gonna do? 01:39:10.689 --> 01:39:12.939 If they don't make it, it's like, I don't fucking care. 01:39:13.269 --> 01:39:17.979 They're gonna go in the ground and the ones that don't make it will become soil. 01:39:18.129 --> 01:39:19.809 And the ones that make it will make it. 01:39:19.809 --> 01:39:23.349 And that's fine, you know, and some will live a bit and die, but they will still 01:39:23.619 --> 01:39:25.749 photosynthesize and create some oxygen. 01:39:26.049 --> 01:39:30.999 But anyway, when I go back now to Texas, in particular, where I began this process. 01:39:32.199 --> 01:39:37.309 Oh, better part of 30 years ago maybe 25 years. 01:39:37.849 --> 01:39:45.319 Those trees are now belts of forest that are about 30 feet high and go 01:39:45.319 --> 01:39:47.539 over hundreds and hundreds of meters. 01:39:47.809 --> 01:39:50.479 So I still do it to this day everywhere I go. 01:39:50.479 --> 01:39:52.849 And I now gorilla it too well anywhere. 01:39:52.849 --> 01:39:56.299 I know that it's unlikely to be cut. 01:39:57.349 --> 01:40:01.519 I put them in and I watch them come up and they come up and I do it with 01:40:01.519 --> 01:40:03.079 the autistic kids that I work with. 01:40:03.769 --> 01:40:09.649 And they see their trees come up because if you put acorns in and fruit trees 01:40:09.649 --> 01:40:15.619 as well, plums, peaches, cherries, if you put, I don't know, a hundred of 01:40:15.619 --> 01:40:21.769 those things in, which is easy to do, in about 15 minutes you can be sure 01:40:21.889 --> 01:40:24.019 that at least 5, 6, 7 will come up. 01:40:24.919 --> 01:40:29.239 And the kids watch, they, they can see this direct cause and effect. 01:40:29.599 --> 01:40:34.249 And I, I fell in love with this process a long time ago now when I'm working. 01:40:34.429 --> 01:40:38.269 So now we work on a slightly bigger level with movement method. 01:40:38.689 --> 01:40:44.729 And now I asked a friend of mine who's German who's also a politician 01:40:44.939 --> 01:40:47.579 who runs a horse boy place. 01:40:47.579 --> 01:40:48.689 I said, I want a forest. 01:40:50.339 --> 01:40:54.659 And we got one and we got one in this county in Germany 01:40:54.989 --> 01:40:56.339 where they planted a tree. 01:40:56.939 --> 01:41:02.129 For every resident of the county, 325,000 trees. 01:41:02.669 --> 01:41:04.559 I thought this is possible. 01:41:04.709 --> 01:41:08.159 So now everywhere I go, like, I want a forest, and I've gotten a few. 01:41:08.339 --> 01:41:09.029 It's amazing. 01:41:09.029 --> 01:41:11.949 It's like if you don't ask, you don't get I got one in Ireland. 01:41:12.549 --> 01:41:16.569 It's half a hillside of a place that we are developing for autism. 01:41:16.569 --> 01:41:18.069 I said, I want a forest. 01:41:18.069 --> 01:41:18.699 I got one. 01:41:18.879 --> 01:41:19.839 I did another one. 01:41:19.989 --> 01:41:21.969 I said, eat that little bit there. 01:41:21.969 --> 01:41:22.959 I want that as a forest. 01:41:22.959 --> 01:41:24.519 I got one, 3000 trees. 01:41:24.759 --> 01:41:26.169 You know, it's incredible. 01:41:26.829 --> 01:41:32.079 And I get really excited, as you can tell, I get quite excited. 01:41:32.084 --> 01:41:33.579 Congratulations about forest. 01:41:33.579 --> 01:41:35.229 It makes me flat, my hands like this. 01:41:35.709 --> 01:41:36.969 I love trees. 01:41:37.329 --> 01:41:37.989 I love them. 01:41:37.989 --> 01:41:41.859 I, I I, I, I don't really have the words for how much I love trees. 01:41:42.909 --> 01:41:46.809 And so flower is, it's a, it's a tree. 01:41:47.529 --> 01:41:49.299 So I'm absolutely with you. 01:41:50.259 --> 01:41:52.929 One thing I'm going to ask you to do mm-hmm. 01:41:53.889 --> 01:41:56.739 I am a great lover of nature writing. 01:41:58.089 --> 01:42:02.739 You might have noticed it's a predominantly male thing. 01:42:03.489 --> 01:42:08.079 It's not only a male thing, but it's predominantly we have a bit of a lack, 01:42:08.139 --> 01:42:12.339 I feel of good female nature writers. 01:42:12.339 --> 01:42:16.209 It's not been as much of a tradition and I think it's needed. 01:42:16.759 --> 01:42:18.094 There's another friend of mine that I'm. 01:42:20.284 --> 01:42:24.994 Yapping at her heels, like a terrier to get her to write a book. 01:42:24.994 --> 01:42:28.684 She works with the criminally insane in Michigan. 01:42:29.584 --> 01:42:29.614 Okay. 01:42:29.614 --> 01:42:30.094 With nature. 01:42:30.214 --> 01:42:33.574 And she creates these beautiful pictures and she writes these 01:42:33.574 --> 01:42:35.704 amazing short pieces and poems. 01:42:35.704 --> 01:42:37.924 I'm like, dude, you've gotta publish this shit. 01:42:37.984 --> 01:42:38.914 We, we need it. 01:42:39.514 --> 01:42:42.724 I think we need Raja's Nature writing. 01:42:42.754 --> 01:42:44.374 I mean, you've done it with your flower book. 01:42:44.474 --> 01:42:46.004 Are you gonna make a film about flowers? 01:42:49.574 --> 01:42:50.234 Rejane D'Espirac: I can. 01:42:50.384 --> 01:42:50.954 It's not a Why you 01:42:51.199 --> 01:42:52.754 Rupert Isaacson: want Raja's film about flowers. 01:42:53.984 --> 01:42:54.284 Rejane D'Espirac: Okay. 01:42:54.284 --> 01:42:55.844 I'll put that on my list. 01:42:59.834 --> 01:43:00.674 Yeah, why not? 01:43:00.914 --> 01:43:01.514 Rupert Isaacson: Why not? 01:43:01.874 --> 01:43:02.264 Rejane D'Espirac: Hmm. 01:43:03.284 --> 01:43:03.794 Okay. 01:43:04.514 --> 01:43:06.854 Rupert Isaacson: It would be very interesting to trace in your own 01:43:06.854 --> 01:43:13.754 story from Boal through your own body, through your other activism. 01:43:13.814 --> 01:43:15.494 What have been the main flowers? 01:43:15.494 --> 01:43:19.964 What have been the main plants that have been, have carried this story? 01:43:20.084 --> 01:43:20.204 Hmm. 01:43:20.234 --> 01:43:21.134 It would be very interesting. 01:43:21.134 --> 01:43:25.424 I bet there's some silent heroes and heroines in the plant world that 01:43:25.424 --> 01:43:28.964 probably show up in each of your stories. 01:43:30.014 --> 01:43:30.254 Rejane D'Espirac: Hmm. 01:43:30.824 --> 01:43:31.994 No, I've never thought about that. 01:43:32.294 --> 01:43:34.844 What, what came, comes to me when you say that? 01:43:34.844 --> 01:43:36.494 It just, the seeds of life. 01:43:37.124 --> 01:43:41.664 I mean, there is something about seeds and seeds of life and okay. 01:43:41.664 --> 01:43:45.744 I, I will check for the, I will, going to look for the error. 01:43:47.244 --> 01:43:53.154 Rupert Isaacson: My friend Tim Smit, who has been on this podcast who runs two 01:43:53.154 --> 01:44:00.994 things, the, the Eden Project in England, which is a, a rainforest under a roof. 01:44:00.999 --> 01:44:01.259 Mm-hmm. 01:44:01.604 --> 01:44:06.104 And it started with his project, the Lost Gardens of Halligan, which was 01:44:06.104 --> 01:44:11.684 a, a garden that he restored and, and now he's running a national wildflower 01:44:11.804 --> 01:44:17.374 center and a seed bank and a national repository for wildflowers in the uk. 01:44:17.734 --> 01:44:17.764 Mm. 01:44:18.144 --> 01:44:20.274 I think maybe you and he need to have a chat. 01:44:20.814 --> 01:44:21.084 Okay. 01:44:21.164 --> 01:44:29.414 Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it, going from this human activism becoming 01:44:29.414 --> 01:44:33.854 impassioned and upset, as you said at the beginning of this conversation, 01:44:34.154 --> 01:44:40.904 by suffering, observing, suffering, when there could be healing, and 01:44:40.904 --> 01:44:46.754 then getting involved in the story of healing personally for other people. 01:44:47.924 --> 01:44:51.374 And now bringing it back to what is the process of that healing? 01:44:51.869 --> 01:44:53.609 Plants and the flowers themselves. 01:44:55.349 --> 01:44:57.239 And what are their personalities? 01:44:57.509 --> 01:44:58.649 What's their energy? 01:44:58.739 --> 01:44:59.699 What's their story? 01:45:02.584 --> 01:45:06.209 I think maybe Rajan is a good person too. 01:45:08.219 --> 01:45:08.609 Hmm. 01:45:08.939 --> 01:45:09.989 Rejane D'Espirac: To put in your podcast. 01:45:13.679 --> 01:45:16.439 Rupert Isaacson: Now, a lot of our listeners and viewers 01:45:16.439 --> 01:45:17.669 are not French speakers. 01:45:17.699 --> 01:45:17.729 Mm. 01:45:18.029 --> 01:45:21.659 And so far you've been doing all your stuff in French. 01:45:21.839 --> 01:45:21.929 Mm-hmm. 01:45:22.409 --> 01:45:22.889 Yes. 01:45:23.759 --> 01:45:28.859 Those of you listeners and viewers who do speak French, however, and there will 01:45:28.859 --> 01:45:35.459 be some of you who do you might want to profit from checking out Raja's stuff. 01:45:36.149 --> 01:45:41.609 Rajan, can you tell us how they will find your writings in your films and give them 01:45:41.669 --> 01:45:43.499 a little list that they can write down? 01:45:43.679 --> 01:45:45.839 'cause there will be people with their pens out right 01:45:45.839 --> 01:45:47.609 now wanting to write it down. 01:45:47.819 --> 01:45:49.919 What's your website and what are the books and what are the 01:45:49.919 --> 01:45:51.839 films and how do they find them? 01:45:52.199 --> 01:45:52.949 Rejane D'Espirac: Okay. 01:45:53.009 --> 01:45:57.719 Everything is listed on my website, so website is my name. 01:45:58.619 --> 01:45:59.219 Rupert Isaacson: So spell 01:45:59.374 --> 01:45:59.494 Rejane D'Espirac: it. 01:45:59.874 --> 01:46:11.334 We joined Reja Dera, which is R-E-J-A-N-E-D-E-S-P-I-R-A c.com. 01:46:12.389 --> 01:46:12.899 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:46:12.924 --> 01:46:13.214 Okay. 01:46:13.709 --> 01:46:16.409 Reja is R-E-J-A-N-E. 01:46:16.409 --> 01:46:16.469 Yeah. 01:46:16.739 --> 01:46:17.189 Right. 01:46:17.369 --> 01:46:22.199 And Deak, which should be de apostrophe, but yeah, you can't do 01:46:22.199 --> 01:46:23.999 that when you're doing a, a web domain. 01:46:23.999 --> 01:46:29.549 So D-E-S-S-P-I-I 01:46:30.149 --> 01:46:33.479 Rejane D'Espirac: air RACC, 01:46:34.019 --> 01:46:36.029 Rupert Isaacson: Deak, what a beautiful name. 01:46:36.359 --> 01:46:36.629 Rejane D'Espirac: Yeah. 01:46:36.729 --> 01:46:37.959 Rupert Isaacson: All French names are so depi. 01:46:38.979 --> 01:46:41.709 It was, they always, they always sound to the English here, so poetic. 01:46:42.459 --> 01:46:46.109 You know, it's I, I, when I'm speaking the people, 01:46:46.109 --> 01:46:47.249 Rejane D'Espirac: Bo Country is on YouTube. 01:46:48.119 --> 01:46:48.629 Rupert Isaacson: Say what? 01:46:49.019 --> 01:46:52.044 Rejane D'Espirac: The, the boar documentary with English subtitles is, 01:46:52.079 --> 01:46:53.189 Rupert Isaacson: is on YouTube. 01:46:53.249 --> 01:46:53.399 Yeah. 01:46:53.429 --> 01:46:53.699 Okay. 01:46:53.699 --> 01:46:55.679 Tell us the name of the Boal documentary. 01:46:55.679 --> 01:46:55.769 Sam 01:46:56.609 --> 01:46:56.849 Rejane D'Espirac: Bna. 01:46:57.539 --> 01:46:58.649 Rupert Isaacson: Spell it please. 01:46:59.069 --> 01:47:07.979 Rejane D'Espirac: S-H-A-M-B-H-A-V-N-A. 01:47:08.519 --> 01:47:08.819 Sam 01:47:10.204 --> 01:47:10.554 Rupert Isaacson: Samba. 01:47:11.204 --> 01:47:11.554 Shana? 01:47:11.909 --> 01:47:12.389 Rejane D'Espirac: Yes. 01:47:12.599 --> 01:47:12.959 Okay. 01:47:13.199 --> 01:47:15.729 Rupert Isaacson: We will also be putting this in all the 01:47:15.729 --> 01:47:17.259 show notes, by the way, guys. 01:47:17.259 --> 01:47:17.529 So 01:47:17.709 --> 01:47:18.544 Rejane D'Espirac: we'll send you the link. 01:47:18.764 --> 01:47:19.209 You don't have 01:47:19.209 --> 01:47:21.159 Rupert Isaacson: to remember this or if you haven't got it. 01:47:21.309 --> 01:47:26.269 So Shana is the name of the free clinic, which is also the name of the boar 01:47:26.659 --> 01:47:28.909 movie, about the recovery from this. 01:47:28.999 --> 01:47:29.299 Rejane D'Espirac: Yes. 01:47:29.359 --> 01:47:31.129 Because it means possibility. 01:47:31.459 --> 01:47:31.909 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:47:31.909 --> 01:47:36.974 It means possibility in Hindi or in in Sans Sant, San San. 01:47:37.364 --> 01:47:37.654 Yeah. 01:47:38.854 --> 01:47:39.394 Okay. 01:47:39.454 --> 01:47:43.004 And then your book? 01:47:43.394 --> 01:47:44.324 Mm-hmm. 01:47:45.914 --> 01:47:48.284 A baby at last or at last Baby. 01:47:49.484 --> 01:47:51.164 And now your book about Flowers. 01:47:56.294 --> 01:47:56.474 De 01:47:57.644 --> 01:47:58.184 Rejane D'Espirac: Indeed. 01:47:58.574 --> 01:47:59.174 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:47:59.984 --> 01:48:04.724 The Discreet Power of Flowers, discreet Flower Power. 01:48:05.564 --> 01:48:09.434 Go on her website guys, if you've got some French, check it out. 01:48:09.614 --> 01:48:10.394 Now here's the good news. 01:48:10.574 --> 01:48:18.764 I'm also going to try to bully my agent into taking Raja's books 01:48:18.794 --> 01:48:24.344 and jolly well, selling them to English speaking publishers so 01:48:24.344 --> 01:48:26.594 that we can benefit from them. 01:48:27.314 --> 01:48:28.244 Rajan, what's next? 01:48:28.244 --> 01:48:30.584 What, what are the next projects for you? 01:48:30.634 --> 01:48:32.464 Rejane D'Espirac: I'm finishing the writing of a book, 01:48:32.464 --> 01:48:33.934 my first novel about Bob. 01:48:34.339 --> 01:48:36.589 Ooh, about Boal today? 01:48:36.679 --> 01:48:38.179 Well, it's not really a novel. 01:48:38.179 --> 01:48:38.519 Rupert Isaacson: What's the story? 01:48:38.624 --> 01:48:40.114 Rejane D'Espirac: Very inspired by real facts. 01:48:40.654 --> 01:48:40.874 Yes. 01:48:40.974 --> 01:48:42.594 But yes, it's kind of, what's 01:48:42.594 --> 01:48:42.829 Rupert Isaacson: the story? 01:48:42.829 --> 01:48:43.909 Tell us the story quickly. 01:48:44.129 --> 01:48:47.949 Rejane D'Espirac: The story is is a, well, it's very basic story of a young 01:48:47.949 --> 01:48:55.419 American journalist who happened to arrive in Boal now Oh, in 2024, because 01:48:55.419 --> 01:49:02.939 she received a, a small black notebook, which is in fact the memory of Whan 01:49:02.939 --> 01:49:08.519 Anderson, who were, who were the CEO of Union Carbide at the time of the accident. 01:49:09.149 --> 01:49:15.509 So first part of the book is her, her discovering Bopa now, and the story 01:49:15.509 --> 01:49:22.409 of the disaster told by the eyes of the CEO of the chemical company. 01:49:23.639 --> 01:49:30.739 And second part is, is the, the erroring discovering the case of boal children. 01:49:30.799 --> 01:49:37.459 Now all the disabled children in Boal, thanks to a free clinic that exists in 01:49:37.639 --> 01:49:40.699 Bal a Day Hospital for disabled children. 01:49:42.049 --> 01:49:48.219 And so she, the second parties meeting with his children and the, the 01:49:48.219 --> 01:49:54.219 journal she creates with the children where they tell their daily life, 01:49:55.389 --> 01:49:57.939 Rupert Isaacson: the CEO of Union Carbide. 01:49:59.054 --> 01:50:01.239 The, the Indian CEO, not the American? 01:50:01.239 --> 01:50:01.299 Rejane D'Espirac: No. 01:50:01.599 --> 01:50:01.929 Yeah. 01:50:02.199 --> 01:50:02.739 Rupert Isaacson: The American. 01:50:02.739 --> 01:50:02.799 The 01:50:02.799 --> 01:50:03.309 Rejane D'Espirac: American. 01:50:03.309 --> 01:50:03.579 CEO. 01:50:04.839 --> 01:50:06.189 Rupert Isaacson: Is that dude still alive? 01:50:06.999 --> 01:50:07.959 Rejane D'Espirac: No, no, no. 01:50:07.959 --> 01:50:11.899 He he died in 2014. 01:50:12.559 --> 01:50:12.979 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:50:13.069 --> 01:50:16.159 Rejane D'Espirac: And he has never been judged nor condemned. 01:50:16.819 --> 01:50:20.359 Rupert Isaacson: What, what are the legalistics of writing a 01:50:20.359 --> 01:50:23.809 fictional journal about that bloke? 01:50:23.809 --> 01:50:28.009 Like are you, are, do you skate on thin ice there with his 01:50:28.219 --> 01:50:31.039 Rejane D'Espirac: No, I'm, I it's mostly based off what I know. 01:50:31.039 --> 01:50:33.079 It was a way to tell the story. 01:50:33.469 --> 01:50:33.559 Rupert Isaacson: Yes. 01:50:33.559 --> 01:50:33.769 But 01:50:33.979 --> 01:50:36.499 Rejane D'Espirac: I wanted to have the guy inside. 01:50:36.799 --> 01:50:37.099 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:50:37.369 --> 01:50:43.509 Rejane D'Espirac: And what it is to be responsible for such a, a disaster, 01:50:43.569 --> 01:50:46.569 but having the impression right. 01:50:46.569 --> 01:50:48.729 Or false that you are not responsible. 01:50:48.759 --> 01:50:49.209 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:50:49.899 --> 01:50:50.139 Yes. 01:50:50.199 --> 01:50:51.489 'cause that would be my feeling. 01:50:51.489 --> 01:50:53.499 I bet you he did not feel responsible. 01:50:53.619 --> 01:50:55.929 Rejane D'Espirac: No, it was bigger than Im, it was in India. 01:50:55.929 --> 01:50:56.949 It was far away. 01:50:56.949 --> 01:50:58.989 It was because of Indian processes. 01:50:58.989 --> 01:50:59.079 Right. 01:50:59.259 --> 01:51:00.429 Which is totally true. 01:51:00.999 --> 01:51:06.009 But it was also because the factory was badly designed to save cost. 01:51:06.129 --> 01:51:11.449 And this is very American in a way when it's not based on their own country. 01:51:11.629 --> 01:51:19.099 And the, all the legal part and trials have been in India because they didn't 01:51:19.099 --> 01:51:22.819 want American law to be involved. 01:51:22.999 --> 01:51:23.329 Rupert Isaacson: Yes. 01:51:23.359 --> 01:51:24.859 Rejane D'Espirac: So they paid 500. 01:51:25.429 --> 01:51:26.659 Dollars per people. 01:51:26.659 --> 01:51:27.319 And that's it. 01:51:27.829 --> 01:51:34.939 Rupert Isaacson: And also he, I, I presume that this CEO did not quietly with all the 01:51:34.939 --> 01:51:41.419 money that you get when you are retired as A CEO, which we know is a lot of money. 01:51:41.879 --> 01:51:44.849 He did not go and create a foundation for Of course. 01:51:44.879 --> 01:51:45.509 No, no, no. 01:51:45.509 --> 01:51:46.794 Of the No 01:51:47.069 --> 01:51:48.509 Rejane D'Espirac: bought, he bought, he bought a house. 01:51:48.539 --> 01:51:48.809 Yes. 01:51:48.839 --> 01:51:53.549 He bought a beautiful house in Florida just to have peace from journalists. 01:51:53.954 --> 01:51:55.889 Rupert Isaacson: Yes, yes. 01:51:55.949 --> 01:51:56.399 Like you 01:51:57.474 --> 01:51:57.754 Rejane D'Espirac: I see 01:52:01.769 --> 01:52:02.714 Rupert Isaacson: they pe excited 01:52:02.819 --> 01:52:04.049 Rejane D'Espirac: to give him a voice. 01:52:05.609 --> 01:52:06.929 Rupert Isaacson: Well, how very nice of you. 01:52:07.499 --> 01:52:07.979 Okay. 01:52:07.979 --> 01:52:08.789 So there's that, that's, 01:52:08.789 --> 01:52:10.859 Rejane D'Espirac: that's, it's gonna be published in September, 01:52:10.859 --> 01:52:12.379 in France next September. 01:52:12.769 --> 01:52:12.889 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:52:12.889 --> 01:52:13.399 And then 01:52:13.519 --> 01:52:15.749 Rejane D'Espirac: for next year everything is opened. 01:52:15.959 --> 01:52:19.499 So I still have my little project above movement method, but we need to, 01:52:19.734 --> 01:52:20.024 Rupert Isaacson: okay. 01:52:20.039 --> 01:52:20.339 Okay. 01:52:20.339 --> 01:52:20.669 Yes. 01:52:20.819 --> 01:52:21.719 We might be. 01:52:21.779 --> 01:52:24.479 Those of you who are interested in movement method, Anne and I have 01:52:24.479 --> 01:52:28.979 been talking for about 30 years about possibly doing some sort of 01:52:29.699 --> 01:52:31.439 documentary around movement method. 01:52:31.544 --> 01:52:33.629 I sort have time, Anne, you'll probably do it. 01:52:33.634 --> 01:52:33.744 Yeah, 01:52:35.654 --> 01:52:36.059 Rejane D'Espirac: yeah, yeah. 01:52:36.629 --> 01:52:38.279 I've got slow processes. 01:52:38.399 --> 01:52:39.299 Rupert Isaacson: Yes, yes, indeed. 01:52:39.749 --> 01:52:40.859 When the time is right. 01:52:40.859 --> 01:52:41.789 Always for these things. 01:52:41.969 --> 01:52:43.709 What's the name of the, of the novel that 01:52:44.619 --> 01:52:45.339 Rejane D'Espirac: in French, it's, 01:52:47.409 --> 01:52:48.729 they will be our children. 01:52:49.149 --> 01:52:51.339 Rupert Isaacson: They will be our children. 01:52:52.389 --> 01:52:53.049 Okay. 01:52:53.289 --> 01:52:55.689 I think we definitely need you being published in English. 01:52:55.689 --> 01:52:58.329 Let me see if I can get to work on this a little bit. 01:52:59.829 --> 01:53:00.759 Alright, my friend. 01:53:00.789 --> 01:53:06.789 Well, listen, always a delight to talk to you. 01:53:06.879 --> 01:53:07.359 Always. 01:53:07.364 --> 01:53:07.614 Rejane D'Espirac: Same. 01:53:08.194 --> 01:53:08.904 Thank you very much. 01:53:09.399 --> 01:53:10.569 Rupert Isaacson: Thank you for this. 01:53:11.979 --> 01:53:14.619 And then listeners and viewers, if you've got any questions 01:53:14.619 --> 01:53:16.689 for Rajan, send it to us. 01:53:16.689 --> 01:53:17.649 We'll send it to her. 01:53:17.739 --> 01:53:19.689 I'll ask if she'll reply. 01:53:20.079 --> 01:53:20.409 We'll, 01:53:21.099 --> 01:53:21.369 Rejane D'Espirac: I will. 01:53:21.999 --> 01:53:25.659 Rupert Isaacson: Meanwhile go check out her website and the amazing work she does. 01:53:25.779 --> 01:53:27.519 We haven't touched on everything she does. 01:53:27.609 --> 01:53:29.739 There's plenty of other things too. 01:53:30.159 --> 01:53:32.579 So, there's one question I didn't ask you. 01:53:32.604 --> 01:53:32.894 Yeah. 01:53:36.599 --> 01:53:38.999 How do you 01:53:41.189 --> 01:53:49.379 make it work economically to live this type of self-actualized life? 01:53:51.689 --> 01:53:52.349 Rejane D'Espirac: That, that's a question. 01:53:52.979 --> 01:53:55.979 Rupert Isaacson: It's possibly, it's possibly the most, or one of the most 01:53:56.729 --> 01:54:01.439 financially unstable ways to make a life. 01:54:02.339 --> 01:54:04.949 And yet you have and you do. 01:54:06.629 --> 01:54:07.229 How'd you do it? 01:54:08.729 --> 01:54:12.719 Rejane D'Espirac: Well, I start everywhere wondering, oh, I'm gonna 01:54:12.719 --> 01:54:15.299 make a living for the, your coming. 01:54:15.689 --> 01:54:16.229 Rupert Isaacson: Yes. 01:54:16.469 --> 01:54:23.369 Rejane D'Espirac: And then I involved in a project and the life has always 01:54:23.369 --> 01:54:26.819 been wonderful with me in a way. 01:54:26.819 --> 01:54:26.909 Mm-hmm. 01:54:27.869 --> 01:54:34.549 So well the, the, when I got a project, like a film a book I dedicate 01:54:35.059 --> 01:54:37.219 weeks or months in a year for them. 01:54:37.909 --> 01:54:44.959 But, but I make a living with journalism, with writing pieces for magazines. 01:54:45.769 --> 01:54:49.874 This is my way to stabilize my income is to work for magazines 01:54:49.874 --> 01:54:53.549 Rupert Isaacson: and in today's online world where so much 01:54:53.549 --> 01:54:56.039 content is created artificially. 01:54:56.309 --> 01:54:56.399 Rejane D'Espirac: Mm-hmm. 01:54:56.829 --> 01:54:59.679 Rupert Isaacson: This is still a viable way to make a living. 01:55:00.909 --> 01:55:01.179 Rejane D'Espirac: Yeah. 01:55:01.179 --> 01:55:05.179 Some of, I work for a couple of magazines mostly how do you say that? 01:55:05.289 --> 01:55:10.869 Well, nature magazines or, so which kind of society do we want to, to 01:55:10.869 --> 01:55:12.819 create magazines or stuff like that. 01:55:13.299 --> 01:55:20.289 And it's beautiful paper magazines and I mostly reporter, so I mostly write 01:55:20.289 --> 01:55:23.439 stories about initiatives on the ground. 01:55:23.919 --> 01:55:29.319 So there is, this is a very tiny place where being there. 01:55:30.354 --> 01:55:35.214 There is an added value of a human being being there on the ground 01:55:36.024 --> 01:55:40.614 because it's not only information, it's about feeling and meeting people. 01:55:40.614 --> 01:55:45.234 And well, more and more I assume that my job is subjective. 01:55:45.264 --> 01:55:49.254 That it's only my point of view and it's only my feelings about it. 01:55:49.704 --> 01:55:52.794 So I just transmit my views and my feelings. 01:55:53.124 --> 01:55:55.824 And this IA can do that. 01:55:55.884 --> 01:55:58.854 Not, not on the same way for the moment. 01:55:59.544 --> 01:56:00.924 So this is my chance. 01:56:01.674 --> 01:56:05.754 I'm highly subjective and people read me because it's subjective. 01:56:06.354 --> 01:56:06.564 Rupert Isaacson: Hmm. 01:56:07.224 --> 01:56:10.524 Rejane D'Espirac: And so yes, but it's more and more tricky and it's more and 01:56:10.524 --> 01:56:13.464 more tricky because I'm getting older too. 01:56:13.884 --> 01:56:21.064 And it's and it's a real issue to be a woman over 50 in a world that 01:56:21.064 --> 01:56:25.774 doesn't need meet so much anymore on a more professional or business way. 01:56:26.704 --> 01:56:26.734 Mm. 01:56:26.734 --> 01:56:33.004 So it's less and less easy to have a place on the very mainstream magazines because 01:56:33.004 --> 01:56:34.774 you've got young people and that's normal. 01:56:35.134 --> 01:56:37.834 There are sorties, they've got ideas, they've got energy, they 01:56:37.834 --> 01:56:41.494 don't have kids, and they don't take a lot of money and they do the job. 01:56:42.154 --> 01:56:42.394 Hmm. 01:56:42.484 --> 01:56:50.734 So, more and more I accept to go on my personal projects and to. 01:56:52.999 --> 01:56:59.329 To have faced enough to work with them and to hope they are gonna make a living 01:56:59.329 --> 01:57:02.419 for me, because I have no choice, in fact. 01:57:04.039 --> 01:57:04.369 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:57:06.289 --> 01:57:11.269 How much of a, how much of a role does optimism play? 01:57:13.639 --> 01:57:17.059 Rejane D'Espirac: I wouldn't have say optimism, confidence 01:57:17.059 --> 01:57:19.369 more, but not self-confidence. 01:57:19.639 --> 01:57:23.929 Rupert Isaacson: But you must have an optimi, you must have an expectation of a 01:57:23.959 --> 01:57:26.779 good outcome based upon your experience. 01:57:27.919 --> 01:57:30.559 Rejane D'Espirac: I know that if I am 01:57:33.769 --> 01:57:37.429 authentic enough, if I don't want to do good, and if I don't 01:57:37.429 --> 01:57:40.399 want to answer to standards, 01:57:40.759 --> 01:57:41.179 Rupert Isaacson: yes. 01:57:41.179 --> 01:57:44.869 Rejane D'Espirac: If I do my stuff from my heart, it's gonna work. 01:57:46.969 --> 01:57:49.129 Rupert Isaacson: I think you just defined optimism actually. 01:57:49.339 --> 01:57:55.099 It's a very good Yes, because it's, it's confidence from a, it's 01:57:55.099 --> 01:57:57.949 based on, you know, experience. 01:57:58.459 --> 01:58:03.319 Well, but there was a point where you had to start without that experience. 01:58:03.324 --> 01:58:03.544 Yeah. 01:58:03.684 --> 01:58:03.904 Yes. 01:58:07.279 --> 01:58:07.549 Rejane D'Espirac: Yeah. 01:58:07.609 --> 01:58:08.719 But it was easier. 01:58:08.809 --> 01:58:09.079 Yeah. 01:58:09.499 --> 01:58:09.859 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:58:09.979 --> 01:58:10.249 Rejane D'Espirac: Yeah. 01:58:10.339 --> 01:58:15.439 I, I didn't start 25 years ago being so much involved in my 01:58:15.439 --> 01:58:22.249 topics, and I started as a travel writer, and it was more like taking 01:58:22.339 --> 01:58:22.609 Rupert Isaacson: observation 01:58:22.609 --> 01:58:25.159 Rejane D'Espirac: advantage of my experience and talking about 01:58:25.159 --> 01:58:27.259 people, but not being so involved. 01:58:27.469 --> 01:58:32.509 But then I met people and it was impossible for me not to be involved. 01:58:33.019 --> 01:58:42.769 And years after years, we find found ways to have our views and voices 01:58:42.859 --> 01:58:49.339 heard, but it's always very unstable and it's always very, it's difficult, 01:58:49.369 --> 01:58:54.309 but you, I can remember having a di a conversation with you about margins. 01:58:55.119 --> 01:59:00.729 And I guess my work is a lot about margins and in a way I have to 01:59:00.729 --> 01:59:03.249 accept to be part of it, margin. 01:59:04.599 --> 01:59:08.439 Rupert Isaacson: But the margins interestingly, is where the most 01:59:08.439 --> 01:59:10.929 food is usually because Yes. 01:59:10.929 --> 01:59:14.289 Rejane D'Espirac: And it's, oh, it's where creativity is and it's, so, 01:59:14.289 --> 01:59:16.869 it's of course, it start from that, 01:59:18.039 --> 01:59:20.859 Rupert Isaacson: the, the meeting of one world to another world. 01:59:21.459 --> 01:59:25.029 That's where the richness is, whether it's ecologically or whether it's 01:59:25.329 --> 01:59:26.499 Rejane D'Espirac: yes, fertilization. 01:59:26.559 --> 01:59:26.949 Yes. 01:59:27.039 --> 01:59:27.369 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:59:29.079 --> 01:59:31.139 But I think I guess, go ahead. 01:59:31.319 --> 01:59:31.379 I'll 01:59:31.379 --> 01:59:32.519 Rejane D'Espirac: not say no. 01:59:32.579 --> 01:59:38.549 To big bestseller and be, you know, indeed and able to do more in a way. 01:59:38.549 --> 01:59:41.579 Rupert Isaacson: Well, it sounds, it sounds like the Bo Pal thing, you're 01:59:41.579 --> 01:59:43.229 sort of on that, on that journey. 01:59:43.229 --> 01:59:46.979 I think I, I could see a book like that being very successful. 01:59:47.099 --> 01:59:50.249 It's also cinematic, obviously or television. 01:59:50.759 --> 01:59:57.719 You may not yet be doing this, but I suspect that's something else you 01:59:57.719 --> 02:00:00.599 probably should be doing is mentoring. 02:00:01.499 --> 02:00:01.739 Hmm. 02:00:02.039 --> 02:00:06.569 I would imagine there's a lot of young people wanting to start off, you know, 02:00:06.569 --> 02:00:10.589 I get this too, when people say, Rupert, how do you, how do you make it work? 02:00:10.589 --> 02:00:11.939 And you know, like, oh, go on. 02:00:12.359 --> 02:00:12.539 Yeah. 02:00:12.809 --> 02:00:17.969 And you know, you, I remember when I, when I was first sort of going out in 02:00:17.969 --> 02:00:25.679 the world and establishing myself, you know, with writing and journalism, but I 02:00:25.679 --> 02:00:28.679 was feeding myself through manual labor. 02:00:28.679 --> 02:00:33.029 I just worked on building sites, farms, trained horses. 02:00:33.509 --> 02:00:36.359 Sometimes I didn't eat, you know, that sort of thing. 02:00:36.779 --> 02:00:39.719 And then you just sort of keep a momentum, but you do have 02:00:39.719 --> 02:00:41.009 to have a kind of optimism. 02:00:41.009 --> 02:00:45.899 You do have, you know, and I'm very interested in the psychology 02:00:45.899 --> 02:00:49.169 of optimism because I think we're an optimistic species. 02:00:49.319 --> 02:00:50.249 People say, oh no, I'm not. 02:00:50.249 --> 02:00:50.939 I'm a pessimist. 02:00:51.179 --> 02:00:52.049 But actually. 02:00:52.469 --> 02:00:56.489 There's now so many studies coming out saying optimism tends to actually look 02:00:56.609 --> 02:01:01.319 what result in good outcomes, whether it's health, whether it's economic, 02:01:01.529 --> 02:01:06.209 because it just means you are actively looking for solutions rather than 02:01:06.209 --> 02:01:08.699 assuming that there are no solutions. 02:01:08.999 --> 02:01:12.779 But it does mean that yes, you have to become comfortable with a certain 02:01:12.779 --> 02:01:19.499 degree of instability, but that instability is of course what allows 02:01:19.499 --> 02:01:21.809 you to be able to follow the story. 02:01:22.499 --> 02:01:26.339 But I, I do think that someone, you talked about being over 50, a woman and so on, 02:01:26.609 --> 02:01:29.069 you're now able to give some wisdom. 02:01:30.209 --> 02:01:33.629 And quite a few of my friends are now starting to do this. 02:01:34.199 --> 02:01:38.519 I should imagine, you know, there'll be people listening to this and watching 02:01:38.519 --> 02:01:42.509 this who are thinking, I would quite like to do something like Raja's done. 02:01:43.349 --> 02:01:46.649 You know, could I, could I pay her some money to mentor me? 02:01:47.729 --> 02:01:51.629 Rejane D'Espirac: I, in fact, people came to me to, to help them writing. 02:01:51.839 --> 02:01:52.199 Rupert Isaacson: Yes. 02:01:52.204 --> 02:01:52.264 Rejane D'Espirac: Yeah. 02:01:52.264 --> 02:01:57.389 And you know, it's very relative, unstability, when I spend time in 02:01:57.389 --> 02:02:00.599 Bal, my unstability is quite, whoa. 02:02:01.229 --> 02:02:01.529 Well, 02:02:01.559 --> 02:02:01.984 Rupert Isaacson: that is so true. 02:02:01.984 --> 02:02:02.279 You wanna talk 02:02:02.279 --> 02:02:03.179 Rejane D'Espirac: about the same business? 02:02:03.184 --> 02:02:03.784 Mm, yeah. 02:02:04.979 --> 02:02:05.099 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 02:02:05.099 --> 02:02:06.659 There's nothing like a bit of perspective. 02:02:09.329 --> 02:02:10.949 Rejane D'Espirac: I'm healthy, my son is healthy. 02:02:10.949 --> 02:02:11.759 We've got a roof. 02:02:11.789 --> 02:02:13.319 Well, everything's, yeah. 02:02:13.319 --> 02:02:13.379 Yeah. 02:02:13.799 --> 02:02:14.069 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 02:02:15.854 --> 02:02:16.454 Okay. 02:02:16.754 --> 02:02:17.444 Rejane D'Espirac: Thanks a lot. 02:02:17.534 --> 02:02:18.464 Rupert Isaacson: Well, thank you. 02:02:18.524 --> 02:02:19.094 It's a pleasure. 02:02:19.094 --> 02:02:19.874 Rejane D'Espirac: Such a pleasure. 02:02:20.024 --> 02:02:20.684 Rupert Isaacson: Such a pleasure. 02:02:20.684 --> 02:02:21.284 Always. 02:02:21.434 --> 02:02:23.174 I can't wait for the next conversation. 02:02:23.954 --> 02:02:24.794 Rejane D'Espirac: Oh, let's plan it. 02:02:26.294 --> 02:02:26.624 Rupert Isaacson: Do that. 02:02:27.041 --> 02:02:30.421 I hope you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did. 02:02:31.251 --> 02:02:35.001 If you did, please help us to make more. 02:02:35.001 --> 02:02:38.881 Please like, subscribe, tell a friend, give us a thumbs up. 02:02:39.331 --> 02:02:44.581 If you'd like to support us on Patreon, please go to my website, rupertisakson. 02:02:44.901 --> 02:02:45.251 com. 02:02:45.451 --> 02:02:48.631 And if you'd like to find out about our certification courses with. 02:02:49.021 --> 02:02:52.971 autism, education, horsemanship, everyday shamanism. 02:02:53.031 --> 02:02:55.371 There's a whole range of cool stuff. 02:02:55.791 --> 02:02:58.821 Putting a show together like this is not an easy task. 02:03:00.071 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