WEBVTT

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Welcome to the Color Timer
Podcast. I am your host, Vincent Taylor.

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This is a show where we speak
to professionals who work with color.

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Today, we're speaking to a
very old friend of mine, Michael Henry.

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Michael is a filmmaker, a writer.
He's been in the industry for 20 plus years.

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Made an incredible feature film called
Blame that was in the Toronto Film Festival.

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I was chatting to Michael about the show,

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saying it's all about
color, and then made some kind of

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nasty remark that only
friends can make, saying, "Oh, I

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assume you can't come on the
show because you're color blind."

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And then when I heard that,
I went, "Wait a second. No, no, no.

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You have to come on the show. I want to
chat to you about what it's like to be color blind.

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Being a creative in this
industry, what can you see? What can't you see?"

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So that's what we're
going to do. We're going to use the

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15 minute sand timer as per
usual to keep the conversation contained,

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keep it focused, and yeah, let's go.

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Take your seats because
the hourglass is about to turn.

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We are entering the world of the micro podcast.

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Explore the craft, creativity, and science
of professionals who use color to tell stories.

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Welcome to the Color Timer with Vincent Taylor.

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Michael, hi. Thank you for joining me.

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Good to be here,
Vincent. Good to see you as always.

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It makes us sound all kind of
official when we speak to each other like that.

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When I was chatting to you originally, and I
was just telling you that I was doing this podcast,

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and it was a podcast talking
to professionals who work with color,

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and then I said some
kind of remark about going, "Oh,

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shame you can't come on
because you're color blind."

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And then I went, "Actually,
no, no, you should come on the show,

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and we should talk about what it's like
to be color blind, especially you're a director,

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you're a filmmaker, and how that impacts you."

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And then the more I thought about it, I
thought back to the old days of film school,

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and I was still a DP, and
I was shooting something for you,

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and I remember my little anecdote of, and
I think this is true, I don't think I made it up.

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I was putting a gel up on the light, and you
came over to me, and I guess you were shy about it,

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I don't know, but you said quietly, "Oh, is
that green? Is that a green gel you're putting up?"

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But I went, "Yeah, yeah, it's like..."

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But look, thank you for talking to me about this.

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No worries. I mean, you're always sensitive as a

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director with color, like
on sets or in the grading room.

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I just feel like when you're
color blind, you're just confused.

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It's like color confusion,
color deficiency more than color blindness.

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So yeah, I'm just like,
I'm never certain, never sure.

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So hence, "Is that green?
Is this..." You know? Anyway, so...

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Oh, before I jump into that first
question, because I've made this mistake before,

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I've got to remember to stop my color timer.

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- Please. - All right? Yeah, yeah. So here we go.

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- I can see it in
there. - Here we go. It's official.

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- Awesome. - So, I mean, how did you
find out you were color blind? How old were you?

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I was in grade one. We
were learning colors, and magenta,

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the color magenta, was
something I just couldn't understand.

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It was like my... I think it's the opposite
of my safety word. It's like my fear words, magenta.

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And I thought it was an alright kid, pretty
smart, could pick up things, but colors, I was just like,

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"What the hell is this? It's
brown, right?" And then no, it's sort of...

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I still don't know, so
I'm guessing, right? Magenta's

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like "ready brown," right?
Or something like that, or it's...

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I don't f***ing know. It's
part of my language. I just don't know.

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So I just remember in
grade one going, "I can't... No

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matter how many times you
try to teach me this, I can't...

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get it! I just can't understand it." So I
remember my dad took me to the I&E hospital in Melbourne,

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got a day off school, which was always awesome.

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That's good. That's good.

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And I just remember
having a whole bunch of tests done.

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My dad giving me one of
these invisible pens, sort of

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cool books to do on the
way home just to soften the blow.

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But yeah, found out
that I was severely color-blind.

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Right.

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Yeah, and that was at seven,
and nothing's changed. I'm still...

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Did you, as a little kid, did you
feel... How did it make you feel? Or you didn't...

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There's not very often, other than
if someone says, "What color is this?"

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You don't walk around the world going, "That's red,

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that's green, that's blue.
Oh, look at the sky. It's awesome."

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You see it, you think it, but you don't... I
don't know. You don't verbalise it or process it too much.

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And I've been like this since I
was born. It's the way I've seen the world.

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And it's still very colorful for anyone that
doesn't understand what color-blindness actually is.

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It's actually for a minute percentage of the

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color-blind population.
It's black and white color-blindness.

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For the rest of us, it's
just tonally... We probably see 5,000

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colors where you see whatever
it is, one to two million, whatever.

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I don't know what number it is.

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I've got no idea.

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We only see, yeah, a restricted amount, I guess.

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Do you... And it's okay if you don't, but do you

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know anything about the
science behind color-blindness?

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It's to do with the cones in your eyes, supposedly.

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And there's the three colors, or the three
colors of light, which is what, green, red and blue.

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But that's kind of my
knowledge of it, is that there's something

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actually physically wrong
with the color cones in your retina.

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Right.

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That don't process the light properly.

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Do you happen to know if
it's hereditary, or... It is.

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Well, so for anyone... I mean,
it's a pretty easy way to explain it.

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It's a recessive gene that
gets carried on through a mother.

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Right.

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And a mother will give it to her
sons, as in the actual color-blindness.

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Yeah.

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If she passes it on to
me, then I, as a color-blind

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person, pass it on through
my daughter, through her genes.

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So if I had a daughter, she
would be 50% chance of being color-blind.

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Right.

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Which was leading on to my other
question, because I was wondering if it

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was like hemophilia, where it's
just male or female, but it's not, right?

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It's like 90... 95% males, or some huge amount.

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The only way you will get a
color-blind female, I'm pretty sure, is

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if you have a color-blind
mother and a color-blind father, I think.

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The mother is carrying the color-blind
gene, recessively, and she marries a male who's got the

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color... who is
actually color-blind, so therefore...

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And they've...

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It's an X, Y thing.

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And they have met at a color-blind club.

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Absolutely.

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The color-blind club.

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Yeah.

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Which you don't know about, but I told you about.

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That was really fun.

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I can only imagine.

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You've kind of touched on this, but could
you try to describe to me how you do see color?

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The best... I just think it's like...

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So I'm looking out here
and I can see a tree, right?

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Where you would see all the colour
differentiation in the green in that tree, in the leaves.

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It's like, imagine
taking 15 different shades of green,

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or very close, and
grouping together in one block color.

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That's kind of more what I see.

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I don't see the differentiation.

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That's where I think color-blind people get lost.

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Primary colors are a lot easier to differentiate.

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Show me a yellow and a red.

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I can pick that up.

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Show me a dark green
and a light brown, and my brain

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starts going, "I don't know."

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Where it fits.

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What it is.

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So right now, when I see a tree,
I see it as very vibrant and colorful.

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It's green.

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It's a super green tree out there.

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But I'm not seeing those color differentiations
in there, but I'm still seeing tonal differentiations.

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I can see the underside of the
leaf is dark, the top of the leaf is bright.

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But I'm not seeing color
differentiation like a non-color-blind person would say.

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And again, I think you did
actually already touch on this.

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But is there any way that
it affects your day-to-day life?

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No, apart from my driving test,
which I can't talk about, but I passed.

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So there you go.

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I'm not color-blind at all.

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No, it doesn't.

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It doesn't affect.

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I really...

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It would affect your life ridiculously.

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I mean, as a color
grader, it's like everything you do.

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But for most of us, color doesn't...

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I guess assessing color
isn't an integral part of our life.

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It's just something that happens in
the background and very often, you know...

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Very rarely, sorry, no one ever stops me to
go, "Hey, what color is that shirt you're wearing?"

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The closest...

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And it's far away, but
the closest I can possibly get.

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When I was working in China...

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And I'd only been wearing glasses a
couple of years, and I got a new prescription.

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And I started work that day, and it was great.

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It was really good.

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Next day, great, it was good.

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And I think the third day, I kept the
glasses on as I went to go outside, and I took them off.

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And I think there was quite a colorful sign
there, and I went, "Why does that look different?"

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And I realised that they'd put a
blue blocker or a color thing on the glasses.

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And I freaked out, because I went, "Oh
my God, I've just been grading for two days."

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And it's interesting, because I went...

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Of course, I put my old glasses back on, and I went

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back, and it was subtly
different, but it was all relative.

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And basically, I just shifted the
green hue out of everything, and it was fine.

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I mean, that's my... Talking
about green hue and stuff, when we're

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thinking about working as a director
and working with color grading and this...

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The worst thing for me is
green tinges on skin and stuff.

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Like, if they're under a fluoro or
something, you would spot it like that.

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I would still look at someone and
think tonally, their skin looks alright.

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It just doesn't scream out, like,
"Oh my God, they've got a green face."

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And there's so many times where, you know, I'm
doing an edit, or I'm just running through, and then I

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show someone something,
and then they come back and go,

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"Why is that person got
a green tinge on their face?"

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"Oh, it hasn't been
graded yet!" Or whatever, you know?

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Because, you know, everyone uses LUTs now, and
just quick little things to present an edit to someone.

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- It's true

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- So often, man, so often!

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That sort of thing is my,
you know... Kryptonite, I guess.

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No, Kryptonite's green, by the way.

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See? Can't see it.

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Yeah, sorry.

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Now, we have a mutual
friend, a mutual close friend of

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ours, and when I said to
him that I was speaking to you...

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And so he's given me a question to ask you.

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The Matrix...

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The red pill and the blue
pill, you know? Did that lose any value?

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No, no. Because again, primary
colors. I could see the red and the blue.

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If it was a red and a
brown pill, yeah, I'd be screwed,

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man. That film would take a
whole new meaning for me, I think.

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But no, no.

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It's fine.

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It's fine.

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And I think you were initially talking
too about, like, the red jacket in Schindler's ...

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You know? I could spot that.

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In Schinder's List?

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I could spot that. Like, you know.

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Yeah.

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I think that's... I think colorblind people
probably have, like, an innate strength with tone.

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I think maybe I
mentioned this to you as well. I think

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tonally we must just,
like, black and white and just...

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Well, I was going to ask
you about that. I was going to

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ask you about the world
of black and white photography.

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Like, if you watch a black and white
film, I don't know. Does it have any impact or...?

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It's equivalent to you. I mean, I imagine
you guys watching a black as you guys, you know.

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You go.

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You color sights.

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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know. Fine.

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When you see something and it's like a mid-grey
in a black and white film, it could be a grey shirt.

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It could be a red shirt. It could be a
bunch of different colours. Do you know what I mean?

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But tonally it's sitting in the same spot.

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That's kind of, like, what I would say.

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So, I guess that's why I'm saying
tonally is the thing that I pick up on more.

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Like, if you showed me
two browns, you're picking up the

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colour where I'm looking
straight away for the tonal differences.

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One will be darker than the other.

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Yeah.

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And sometimes I would just pick
the darker one as brown, I guess, because

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generally brown is a darker colour
than green, like primary sort of stuff.

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So...

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It's a constant guessing.

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But it's interesting that thing about, I
remember when I was, you know, a budding cinematographer

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and just learning and a mentor of mine
had said, you know, one of the best things you

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can do to develop your eye as a
cinematographer is to shoot black and white. And same with

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photography. Because you're not getting
distracted by the colors, you're focusing on those tones.

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Yeah. Well, I mean, that's probably
that's very, very similar to what I would say from

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my point of view. I've always been
really interested in a color is just something I

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defer to my cinematographer and my
grader for but I can still the person that I was

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reading about recently, Nicholas
Winding Refn, Drive Director and a few. Oh, yes. He uses

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color in such a like amazing punchy
way. He's supposedly colorblind as well. Is that

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right? And I think that's that's part of
him stepping out of his safety zone and just saying

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screw it, I'm gonna over push this, you
know, and the way he uses colored light so often,

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you know, where it's not even needed,
but he's using it as a stylistic choice. Yeah.

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I see that now. And I go as a colorblind
director, I kind of go I get what you're doing. I get

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you're just pushing it, you're having a
bit more fun. Yeah, you're breaking a bit of those

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boundaries, I guess that, you know,
normal color sighted people might not do. And going

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back, you know, to that analogy of you and
I on set from, oh my god, 20 years ago, whenever

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it was, where where where I interpreted
the way you were saying it was a bit of shyness.

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I mean, do you have a shyness still about it or?

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Yeah, it's not something I don't walk
around with my, "hi, I'm colorblind" t-shirt sort of thing

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when especially when yeah, look, when you're
directing or working with someone, it's something

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that you don't I mean, it doesn't come
up unless I'm talking to a colorist really or

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a cinematographer, you know, yeah. Yeah.
Well, on that topic, then, I mean, how do you work

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with like a colorist? How would you
work with a colorist during a in a suite?

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Again, I would have to really trust them
and defer to them. But I would use references

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from other films and things that I like
that that, you know, I would be very picky on tonal

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decisions and things like that. I can
see consistency in color too, I guess, as well

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in a way, maybe just, you know, I could I
could tell her something feels a little jarring.

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But but there is a lot of trust like,
you know, I mean, I think the film industry in

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general, you have to put a lot of trust
in everyone you work with, you know, you want

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to work with the best cinematographers,
the best sound recorders, the best. It's true.

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whatever. So I probably defer more to a
colorist and a cinematographer than I do, you know, other

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other areas of filmmaking I think because I
need to. I just need to trust in them and know that

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they've got my back.

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This is not related to colorblindness,
it's related to you as a director, but who are

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your, you know, who
inspires you as far as filmmakers go?

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Well it was always, it was always, you
know, Lynch, people like that, just again, I like

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things that were a little left field.

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But you know, modern filmmakers
obviously - people like Fincher, he's been amazing.

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I look, I was a big Italian cinema 70s,
60s, 70s, so Bertolucci, I mean, Conformist is one

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of my favorite films at the time.

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I'm a bit like everyone I think, the
more you get into film, you just deep dive into

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so many eras and so many different, you
know, for five years I'm just into 60s cinema and

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then for another five years, I mean
American cinema in the 70s is freaking phenomenal,

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you know.

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So I love it all, I really do.

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I guess I'm finding it harder to say I love it now.

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Korean cinema, that's my last five years for me.

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But wait, wait, wait. But what do you
mean you're finding it harder to follow it now?

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What does that mean?

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I think to get overly excited. I
mean, television's doing it for a lot of us now.

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More than cinema, I think.
That's what gets tricky, you know?

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Interesting.

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Like, it's the bigger films
that I'll go and see in the cinema

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for the spectacle and the
impact. But there was a time 20 years ago

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I'd go and see so many
independent films. Oh look, the time is running.

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That's alright, that's alright.

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You can see that the reel spin is...

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See? I know, I know, I know.

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It's definitely the year of television.
It's got to flip somewhere. It has to, I think.

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And then just following up on
that point that I interrupted you on,

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you said Korean cinema.
What is it about Korean cinema?

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No. Just, it's ballsy. It's
balls to the wall crazy. I love it.

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And again, coming from
someone who loves, you know, 20 years ago,

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like I was a Lynch,
Lynch-file, like through and through,

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to come and to watch some
of these just mad Korean directors.

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I mean, Parasite has to be one of
the best films from the last five years.

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I mean, I was a huge fan of his prior to that.

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I mean, Memories of Murder from him
like 20 years ago, it's just phenomenal.

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Again, there's just a bit
more risk taking in everything,

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in storytelling and stylistic
choices, you know, things like that.

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I just, I... Yeah. It got me excited
again, I think, which is what I'm waiting for again.

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I think I'm waiting for
my next phase to get excited.

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It's so, so true. And when you
have that moment where you, you know,

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whether it's a bloody
painting or a film or whatever,

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and you just go, "Oh!" You know, it's...

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It just hits you

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somewhere. Music does it to me as well
or something, right? There's something where

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it just all of a sudden something left
of field just starts to just grabs you and then

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you just go that's it. I'm
running with that for the next five years.

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That's my thing, you know,
I sort of I sort of love it. So

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well, I'm gonna be I'm gonna
be good and my timer has run out but

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Michael, thank you.
Thank you so much it for me. It's

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it's fascinating and and
it's and it's great to see you

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00:19:08.416 --> 00:19:10.291
Great to see you as well. Pleasure. Cheers, man

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Michael, thank you so much. It
was great to see you mate. I miss you

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Thank you to my executive producer MixingLight.com

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00:19:20.041 --> 00:19:22.583
If you're watching this
or listening to this on their

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00:19:22.666 --> 00:19:25.333
website, you already know
what they do. If not check them out

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00:19:25.791 --> 00:19:27.708
Everything color they can help you out

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00:19:28.166 --> 00:19:32.250
thank you to my friend of the show
Filmlight and to my producer Kayla and

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00:19:32.333 --> 00:19:36.541
Thank you for listening. Thank you for liking
subscribing leaving comments all of that kind of stuff

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It's it's awesome and I appreciate it

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Until next time keep
coloring outside the lines. Take care

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The color timer a micro podcast experience