Trey: hello.
And welcome back to another episode of MC you need to know a podcast dedicated
to the Marvel cinematic universe and everything you need to know.
I'm
Jude: Trey I'm Jude.
How are you doing
Trey: Trey?
Well, dude, I'm excited because today we finally get to stop running from our past.
After many released delays, we are joined by podcasting's pop culture
aficionado, and the MCU host who assures us each week that there was an idea.
I'm delighted to welcome back Tara to the podcast.
Welcome back, TK.
Welcome Tara.
Tara: Hello.
I'm so excited.
I'm so excited to be here and talk about that.
Trey: It's been so long and I'm so glad that we're finally getting
to realize this episode together.
Tara: Yeah, this has been.
Close to a year in the making.
Jude: I tell you what, let's just start here.
It was so fun to like, cause we have our group text and the texting
was like, I've seen it in and then get the reaction from Tara.
Um, and then also, no, that tray was basically the movie you saw was
starting right as that was coming out.
Uh, there was just, I don't know, having that feeling again because
you haven't, you know, I'm used to that with friends, with MCU movies.
And it's it's, it's so good
to
Trey: do it again.
Yeah.
And I think just like an added layer of it, and obviously we didn't plan this,
but Jude, you took the morning shift.
I took the mid day shift and Tara, you ended up taking the night shift.
So basically among the three of us, one of us was at the theaters throughout the
entire day, which is just so fantastic.
Tara: My family's in town.
I ended up seeing the movie with them, which is why I saw it a
little later than I had planned to.
And when I got the text from YouTube that you had seen it and Trey was in
the theater, I shared it with them.
I was like, I was like, oh man.
I was like, my podcasting friends are in there now.
Like, you know, I'm just getting really
Trey: pumped about it.
Just dawning on me.
I forgot to circle back to it because I got the text obviously
in real time, but I didn't get to check it until the movie was over.
And I was sitting there waiting for the Intacct to happen.
And I was almost about to text was like, oh wait, Tara, hasn't seen this yet.
So I had to like backspace my text before.
Tara: I appreciate
Trey: that.
Well, obviously we're going to be talking about black widow today,
but before we begin Tara, I wanted to take some time to spotlight.
There was an idea.
Um, you know, currently you're in your season five of the podcast,
which has been encompassing your exploration of Loki, uh, how have you
been enjoying the low-key series and in turn this season of your pocket,
Tara: Yeah, thanks Trey.
I have been loving low-key so much.
I have always been a huge fan of Loki's character and was very
excited for this Disney plus show.
Probably more than any other Disney pleasure.
I think when you and I spoke back in December about the Disney investor
day announcements, I want to say that I claimed at the time on your
show that I asserted that Loki was the show I was most excited for.
I don't, I may be wrong because I think if you, depending on which
day you ask me, I may have had an, a different answer to that.
But regardless, Loki was something I was really looking forward to for a long time.
And it's been, you know, I, we, I know we've talked about this before, but the
run of all the Disney plus shows and putting out podcast episodes week to week
throughout one division and then Falcon, and now Loki is a lot to, you know,
watch these episodes and process them.
Fairly quickly before turning around a conversation with somebody else
about them and, you know, reflecting on the, the characters and the
themes and all of that week to week.
So it's been interesting and, uh, it I'm calling it my season
five, because five is low-key.
Four was Falcon three was one division.
And then prior to that, I did kind of two different to me.
They were conceptually distinct runs of movie deep dives.
So I'm looking forward to being back in the realm of a film and
looking at how Marvel does a movie as opposed to the TV show format.
And it's been, it's been really interesting to just engage with this
content that I love so much in so many different ways in the realm of talking
about it with other people and putting my, my own thoughts out there into the world.
So it's been a lot.
Trey: Yeah, it's definitely a very enjoyable part of my week.
And just almost in and out of each week, you're find new people we'll talk about,
which just creates wonderful conversation.
So yeah, very, very happy to hear that it's going well.
Jude: You know what I find interesting, uh, friends, you know, like I said,
we, we talk about Marvel stuff in the MCU, but in the past year, since doing
the podcast and in particular with the episodes, you know, and it's all
been on a friend, Daniel, TJ, uh, Mr.
Frank kin.
Oh, I know.
There's, there's people I'm forgetting my friend, Sean, but I I'm finding that,
that as soon as someone sees it, they're texting me or asking me my thoughts,
or are you going to talk about this?
Or you can talk about that.
Uh, do you get that same.
Tara: Yes, I do.
Um, I have, you know, when I first started the podcast project, which is pretty much
a year to the date almost, um, this week.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
So I've been doing a lot of reflecting on that.
Jude: Thank you.
Happy
Tara: anniversary.
Yeah, you it's, it's a lot to, to kind of think about, but I, you know, especially
when I first started out and was looking at one movie at a time, I was sometimes
asking people who I knew to guest on a particular episode, and maybe they
hadn't seen that movie prior, or maybe they hadn't even seen any MCU prior.
And so, so some of those people have since become fans.
Uh, some of them haven't as much.
Um, but anybody who I was somewhat responsible for kind of getting into
the MCU in the first place, uh, has definitely been, they come to me with
their reactions to each new thing they watch and asking me for, for my, for my.
My take on it and I certainly don't mind it.
You know, it's something that I, uh, I feel excited that I was able to share my
love for this world, with other people.
And then it's kind of spread, but probably the funniest one to me is my mom.
Um, historically hadn't been into.
The MCU in any real way.
I mean, like had some familiarity with it had seen some of the movies was
very familiar with the comic characters growing up, but then once I got into
this project and she saw how much I was spending time on it and she, she
kind of like got back into the world herself and it's always so amusing to
get texts from her about like the latest episode of fluky or whatever it may be.
So it's, um, it's definitely become part of that thing.
It's one of my identity markers at, at work.
And I know we've talked about that, but like, it's one of the things,
people know, you do a Marvel podcast, they're going to come at you with
their, their marble questions.
Uh, but Hey, there are worse things to be
Trey: known for.
It's very fitting to me that hearing these stories about how you introduced
people to the MCU or re-introduced them and kind of brought them together.
It's so fitting that your podcast is called, there was an idea because
you were becoming like the Nick fury of the friends and family.
And
Tara: I love it.
I love that.
I've never thought of it that way, but now I'm not going to get that up.
I really
Jude: like that.
Trey: Fantastic.
Of course, if you're listening, you should definitely check it out.
It's called, there was an idea, a Marvel cinematic universe podcast
available on most podcasts and, uh, we'll link to it in the show notes.
But of course, if you download this episode, you know, we're
going to be discussing black widow.
This isn't the deep dive.
This is more just kind of our initial reactions.
We all have just seen it yesterday.
Uh, so we're going to take some time to give some general reactions
and some preschooler thoughts.
So Tara, if we can start with you, uh, what did you think?
Tara: I loved this movie.
Seeing, I I've loved the Disney plus shows.
I really have, we've talked about all of them.
Wanda vision is something that is so special to me.
I genuinely enjoyed a lot of what Falcon did.
I'm loving low-key, but there was something about this being a movie
that was just so thrilling and just reminded me of what Marvel
does within the movie format.
And I, I absolutely loved this movie.
I was engaged every single second of this film and I, as it was unfolding, as I
was watching it, I was just processing how, just how good it felt and how, how
special this movie really felt to me.
So I just felt like the combination of the emotional aspect, the.
The character moments, the fight scenes and the set pieces and
just how it all came together.
I thought that it was effective in all of those categories and immediately stood
out to me as being, having the qualities that are among my favorite movies in the
Jude: MCU.
Wow.
Yeah.
So I I'm with you on that, or I've enjoyed, uh, you
know, the Disney plus shows.
I've enjoyed getting to get the conversations and new Marvel content,
but it's just, it's not the same for me.
I just, I love going to the theater.
I love seeing it on the big screen and this character in particular having, you
know, should have had a movie way before now and finally getting to see that and.
They pulled it off like it as a prequel, they pulled it off as,
you know, giving her or fulfilling, you know, filling out her story
maybe is the way I should put it.
It's just, it was so good.
Trey: You know, I think we're all three having a very similar feeling because
that was one of the first things I wrote is that, you know, I know I
I've had my qualms with the Disney plus shows, but I I've, I've enjoyed
them, but there's, there's something about watching the MCU return to form
like this is where they started with the movies and it definitely felt.
Like a different experience.
So often I think we keep saying like, oh, this felt like it could have been
on the big screen with these Disney plus shows everything in Blackwood.
It was like, oh, this is the big screen.
This is what, this is what they're trying to accomplish.
Feeling-wise but this is exactly what I've been missing.
And there is a level of bittersweetness to this film because of course black
widow could handle their own solo movie.
Like it was perfect and it took way too long, but I'm so thankful that we
got this movie because it really felt almost like a greatest hits collection
of Natasha as well as like celebrating everything she's done in the MCU,
but with a much deserved focus of the front and center, a hero of the story.
So in short, I liked it a lot.
Tara: Nobody can see it, but I was vigorously nodding my head.
Trey: I love it.
Thank you.
Well,
Jude: yeah.
No, they'll say let's play
Trey: the sound.
Let's go for it.
So, yeah, we, uh, even though we're not doing the most important
topics, we are going to go ahead and give you a spoiler warning.
So on the other side of the spoiler queue, it's going to be fair game of everything
in the Marvel cinematic universe.
So we'll see you on the other side
and we're back.
So now that we're here in the spoiler section, I think one of the easiest
places that we can start with is just simply Tara, how did this movie
expand your understanding of Natasha?
Tara: Yeah, so I have always been a fan of Natasha and have always
considered her to be among my favorite characters in the MCU.
But after seeing this installment, she is like solidly top tier character
who I think has had a complete.
Satisfying inspiring, just awesome arc in the MCU.
And I was thinking about the many ways in which I've talked on your
podcast and on mine about how I feel very inspired by Steve Rogers.
And I think that there's a lot that Natasha and Steve Rogers have in
common, and I've always kinda thought that, um, but in this episode,
in this episode, oh my goodness.
Um, in this installment, in the MCU, in this chapter of her
story, I think that we got to see.
So much more of how she has survived and overcome extreme pain and trauma.
And she to echo what she says in her conversation with Steve and end game,
she's still trying to be better.
And I loved seeing that chapter.
It felt like this chapter was missing.
And like you guys already mentioned, I wish we had gotten it years ago, but
then I also found myself thinking maybe if this movie had come years ago, maybe
it wouldn't have been quite the same.
And so I will take it for what it is.
And I just love being able to circle back and see this part of her story that
feels consistent with what we then saw in infinity Warren end game and makes her
story that much more powerful and sad.
Like I felt so sad.
This person who is not unreal, but she felt very real to me
in watching this movie, knowing where her story was going to go.
And I, I know there's, there's some discourse out there and maybe
we'll, we'll talk about this.
A lot of people are really excited about the Yulaina character and
Florence Pew's, um, performance.
And I am too.
I think she's incredible for the record.
I love her, but I, I don't want that to take away from what I
think was a really, really good Swan song for Scarlett Johannson.
I thought her performance in this was beautiful.
And I, there, I think there was a lot to Natasha that felt like
it felt like it was in the series before, but we just didn't get to
see it and it didn't feel as earned.
And so this is what, that's what this movie really kind of filled in for me.
Jude: Well, I would say for me, it helps in that that transition.
To this leadership role.
I mean, cause cause if you think about, we first see you're in, you know, iron man to
side character, uh, trade, I talked about the, you know, issues with how she was
portrayed, you know, just the characters and the female character and, and stopped.
But then you get an Avengers, you know, and she she's prominent there,
but it's not until, you know, and in an age of Ultron, uh, it gets a
little bit better, but you know, you really see or start becoming less
of a, uh, more of a mainstay there.
Put it that way, maybe in a civil war and then clearly like an end
game after the snap, like she is the one holding things together.
Um, and so it was great to see what she went through.
You know, the, and, and what she, the, the lessons she had to take
away and learn from that experience in order to go do what was
necessary for infinity war and gang.
Trey: Yeah.
Yeah.
I think to borrow what you were saying, Tara, that it, it felt like a missing
piece that I think that is 100% where I'm at, because I think if you look, um,
similar to what you were highlighting, Jude of her arc in the MCU, Prior to this.
I mean, her growth feels like going from feeling like she had nothing, but
the next mission to finally recognizing that like, oh, she found a family and
what we saw, what she was willing to give up everything, an end game to
bring that family back and this, like, I don't want to take away from that
because I do think that is an incredible arc and end game that she was on.
But I remember specifically in our, our very misguided what to expect episode a
year ago, I thought it was coming up soon.
I said that the thing that I was expecting in black widow is to feel in that piece
of how she got to this point where she could make that sacrifice play.
Um, and it's not that I, I think.
She wasn't capable of doing that.
Like it all made sense, but it almost feels like with this entry in the
black widow, it's like taking the timeline and just like zooming in
a little bit and being like, oh, here's this, that was always there.
And, and, and to, to drill into it a little bit more, like, I like
the way this movie sets up, you know, it's takes place after civil
war, the vendors are broken up.
The thing that she thought she had with them is gone.
And now she's being faced with, I say, quote, unquote, real family, because
we, we recognized that it was a stage thing, but it was the closest thing to
a real family that she and Yulaina had.
And so I liked that they show that in order to get to the point in infinity war
in, in game, where she has to fix that family, she first learns how to do it
with this real one in this, this movie.
And I thought that was such a great, yeah.
What's the word I'm looking for.
Just a great way to reinforce how she gets to where she gets in, because the,
I guess, at least for me, the thing that I took so much out of her deciding
it should be her to sacrifice herself.
Despite the dark path that Clint went on is he was willing to forgive her and
not let the past dictate who she is.
So she wanted to do the same to him.
And I think that is similar to what happens in black widow, where
she realizes that the past of her family could be fixed well.
So a little convoluted, but that's, that's what I was coming
feeling coming out of this movie.
Tara: Yeah.
I
Jude: think that's a great parallel.
It is.
I really liked.
We talk a lot about the, the balance between what needs to be shown on
screen and what can be done off screen.
And this, this pre-qual format of being able to like zoom into this part
of the timeline with this character, I think really worked well for me.
It's like, there's a, it's like the expectation without this movie is that
character growth happened off screen.
Right.
And, and getting that glimpse now and showing us was really satisfying.
Tara: I think I sat on, on an episode that I did with you guys, it was one of
your questions of the week at some point.
And I think about like, what movie along the timeline would you like
to see or something to that effect?
I forget exactly what your question was, but I remember my response
to it is like, I want to see like leading up to infinity war, like
what's going on with like Natasha and Steve and Sam and all those people.
And so I just, I was really, really excited to be like, Ooh, this
is the part of the timeline that we're zooming in on and seeing this
particular character during that time.
And I was just so excited by that premise and it completely delivered for me.
Trey: I think another thing that I really enjoyed about them exploring Natasha's
character a little bit more is she frequently made references throughout
the MCU to the red in her ledger.
And given, given the way that her character is introduced.
I'm assuming there's more to it than that than just this moment we
learned about in black widow where she sacrificed Dre cop's daughter to,
to get out from the clutches of him.
But I think this movie really shows that this is the one that's been
weighing on her all these years.
And it's, it feels weird.
Like I add, it feels weird to say I enjoy it because obviously it's a very
dark and heavy thing, but it also feels like another one of those missing pieces
for Natasha, I think to be face to face with this thing, that's haunted
her for so long, long, and it was.
Interesting that this movie was able to both set it up and
resolve it within one entry.
And I enjoyed that a lot.
Tara: Yeah.
And, and the red in the ledger to your point, tray and Dre, Cobb's
daughter was explicitly named by low-key in the scene that they share
in the Avengers back in 2012 and take just like, again, the internal
consistency within the MCU is something that I always find so satisfying.
Nine years ago, you know, sitting in a movie theater, you have Loki talking to
Natasha and saying Dre Cobb's daughter.
And now here I am nine years later and I'm watching the story of what
happened with Dre Cobb's daughter.
And it's, it's just really, really
Jude: fun.
Yeah.
There was a lot of good little Easter egg references.
The whole, thank you for your cooperation, uh, back to an Avengers, uh, reference,
uh, the whole bit about posing being composer, but, but just kind of
that reference throughout the movies of, especially back to Ironman too.
Um, I can't say it was a little bit of that in winter soldier as well, but yeah,
it just, I loved being able to, or not me.
I love that they were able to pull that through all, you
know, oh, throughout the years
Trey: you say you do.
I, you know, I'm always trying to get us somehow on the Marvel team, the
three of us have to start pitching.
Can we come be part of the continuity team that gets to clearly watch
these babies and be like, Hey, you can insert this little bit here.
Yeah.
That'd
Jude: be my day job for that job.
Trey: So if anybody at Marvel, Marvel's listening, we're available.
Oh man.
Well, outside of Natasha, what other characters stood out to you?
Um, Jude, we can start with you this time.
Jude: I'm actually going to go with red guardian.
Uh, I mean, we've, we've mentioned, you know, Florence, Pugh, but I just,
I just love, I loved his character.
I loved seeing his attempted interactions with his daughters the best way he could.
And, and I guess because I have kids and, and daughters, but, but just
say it was his own way of trying to.
Be something that they needed and something that they wanted from him
and in the end, the connection of like, yeah, it was real for him too, you know?
Um, so yeah, th his character, I really, really, yeah,
Tara: he was fantastic.
Trey: Yeah.
You know, I know going in, I was so, and I'll be completely transparent.
It was my expectations of him was super official because like,
oh, I'm a captain America fan.
This is supposed to be a captain America like character.
I was really excited for him and he does have a great arc.
I don't want to take away from that, but I was not expecting him to be.
As self-centered as he was in this movie to cut comedic effect.
But I liked him more because I liked David Harbour more than
I liked the character himself.
So I'm excited for hopefully more of him.
So we can still watch that continued growth from being this like very
self-absorbed person to being somebody who could care for his family.
Tara: And I love how as self-absorbed, as he was and.
Kind of clueless as he was in a lot of ways.
Like there, there was like a very kind of like sweet ignorance to him in a way that
like, I, I think, um, Natasha says to him at some point that he's an idiot, but he
has his own kind of internal consistency.
Right.
So when he is talking about how proud he is of them, and he's like, you
were the best child, like, you know, like for him, like, like he really
thinks, you know, he's really proud.
Um, so I really enjoyed David Harper's perform.
There is
Trey: no good.
And specifically, I think one of the things he mentioned is like, there
must be so much red in your ledger,
Jude: red
Tara: ripping red.
Yeah.
Trey: So, yeah.
Um, Tara, was there any other characters that stood out to you in this show?
Tara: I did already reference the character of Yulaina
and I thought that she was.
Completely dynamic and I was predisposed.
Well, frankly, I was predisposed already to like David Harbor
as a fan of stranger things.
And I, I very proudly have an eight by 10 photo of David Harbor in a
frame that was signed and addressed to me, even though we haven't met.
Okay.
We are from, from the, yeah.
Yes.
He's from the same county in New York that I am from.
And, uh, so there are some connections there that are loose connections,
um, of degrees of separation between me and David Harper.
So he doesn't know that, but I know that's super cool and
Trey: degrees of separation from David used to be an album title, but,
Tara: um, but he, uh, yeah, so I was already a fan of his and I was
already a fan of Florence Pugh as well.
So I.
Was very excited about both of those actors in both of those characters.
And she absolutely didn't disappoint.
Um, from the moment I saw that vest, I was feeling very emotional.
And what I really enjoyed about her performance too, was that she
provided some comedic relief, but in a way that it didn't really,
it didn't seem out of place.
And her emotional connection to Natasha was so deep and the way that, you know,
this character and this actor captured both the why do you do that pose thing?
That was so funny, but she also was able to capture that
like absolutely heartbreaking.
Um, the best part of my life was fake or whatever that
line is that she said it was.
Right.
So that character absolutely.
Popped and I I'm sure they have plans for her in the future of the MCU,
clearly the end tag teased at that.
Um, so yeah, I don't, I don't really know what else to say that hasn't
been said because I she's incredible.
And I'm just really excited to see more of her.
Trey: Yeah.
From, from my understanding, I think Florence Pugh was already
attached to this movie right.
As she has exploded, I think in the movie scene, like she has
been in so many great works.
I think people are starting to pick up on what an incredible actor she is and
if she is going to be in the MCU for a long time, I think we're very, very lucky
because she has brought a lot to Elena and was an amazing addition to this movie.
But for me, I think the character that I want to go with as the
one that stood out to me is.
Taskmaster.
And I I'm torn because I would have liked to have seen more because
we really don't get too much.
But the idea of this character who is able to mimic fighting styles,
um, has gone through what they've gone through, but are now free.
It just feels like it's, it's, it's ripe for storytelling.
And if they keep taskmaster as this lingering, I'll say anti-hero because
I don't think we have a, a heading on which way the character will go.
But if they become a lingering presence in the MCU, that's really, really exciting.
Yeah, I think
Jude: so.
And especially the switch, you know, task master was not, why
am I blanking on the guy's name?
His daughter should know
Trey: this too.
Jude: Oh, drink a drink of his daughter, drink off.
His daughter was not taskmaster in the, in the comic, which is fine.
Yeah, that was completely fine change.
I don't, I loved it.
It put black widow in a, in a really difficult spot, you know,
and she had to wrestle with that.
And that was fantastic.
Uh, but I, I liked the chain.
I liked that it added something in a level to that I think character
that they can go with, uh, further.
Tara: Can I shout out one more, please?
This is going to be terrible because I don't remember his name or if
he even had one, but Natasha's friend who brings her the supplies.
Oh yeah.
Oh, what was that?
Did that character have a
Trey: name?
So I just Googled it and it says agent,
Jude: agent that's
Tara: no.
Mason.
Trey: Okay.
So my information is going to be wrong because it also says
Rachel Wise plays iron maiden.
So please ignore me.
Yeah,
Jude: no, no, no, no, no.
I'm on, I am on, uh, I am DB right now.
It says Mason.
Okay.
So yeah.
And in Mason, I'm glad you brought him up.
He was a good, he was a fun character.
You know, I like the tension that they had between the two of them.
It was, it was really well
Tara: done with very few scenes.
He had an opportunity to leave an impression and I appreciated that.
Um, you know, he obviously was a character who would like have this
purpose to explain how Natasha was going to get access to the
things that she needed access to.
Um, but I thought that, you know, he was more than that.
Maybe some of it's the credit to the actor or the writing or whatever it may be, but
I thought he popped a bit more than that.
And it was clear that he, um, that he did kind of like, I don't know, I
had a crush on her or, you know, like had some kind of feelings toward her.
Um, that I appreciate that they didn't try to put it a romance in this film.
I don't think this film could have handled a romance, um, added onto all of the
other thematic things that it was doing.
But I liked that realistically, of course, that guy would like have
hearts in his eyes over black window, because like, but, um, but he, um,
yeah, I thought, I thought he was,
Jude: oh yeah, he was great.
And again, just the little subtle things, uh, the line at the end
thing Al guys want to hear, you know, it's just, just things like that.
Um, it was, you know, he did, he did a lot with a little bit of time and we,
you always get that from the characters.
Like it's, it's sad showing us.
Well, how does black widow, how does a character like that to
the things she's able to do?
Right.
Get the, get the supply she needs get off the grid, you know, and, and a
lot of times it's one of those things that, that gets left off screen.
So it was good to see that.
Trey: Okay.
Just it's.
Uh, I want to think about like any time we see a movie now, and there's a moment
where, oh, our characters just got like a huge upgrade or they got transport and
they kind of don't explain how it is.
It's Mason, like he's just been running this whole time throughout the MCU.
He's the one who helped them get the wings for Falcon and winter soldier.
Like he's the unsung hero of the MC.
Tara: I love that head Canon.
I completely like subscribe to that.
That's fantastic.
Look at
Jude: truly creating, creating the things you don't like.
Good for you.
Oh no.
Trey: Listen to me.
I'm trying to change.
I'm trying to be better.
Get out of my way.
Jude: It's so fantastic
that they want to bring the one-shot back.
That's what they do.
They bring Mason in, bring him in and do a one-shot of how
he's getting, getting the stuff.
Trey: There you go.
Cause they already had cold, uh, busy day or busy week.
It'll be masons.
Yeah.
Right.
Well, moving along, I think the next thing we kind of want to zone
in on here is, uh, the things that surprised us most about black widow
and starting with me this time.
Uh, I gotta say I'm coming back to taskmaster again.
I was genuinely shocked that it wasn't Molina as taskmaster and maybe this
is me bringing my own expectations to the movies, but every trailer,
the way it was shot, it just.
Making me feel like there was going to be this big twist, like, oh, this person that
Natasha was close to, you ends up being the person she has to fight in the end.
And I'm very glad that the movie didn't go that way, but it just made me appreciate
even more because like going into it, I was like, okay, well, if it's not
Molina, who, who realistically could the reveal of taskmaster be in the MCU?
And there just wasn't anybody that seemed to fit the bill.
And so I'm glad it ended up being the character of Drake Huff's daughter.
Uh, because I think you, you mentioned a Jude, like it just fits so much
better dramatically to the story that this is the thing that Natasha
has to come to face, uh, face to face with to reconcile her past.
Tara: Yeah.
It's always effective when the villain or the antagonist, whoever.
Your protagonist has to face, right.
Has to confront and fight be that physically or not.
If that antagonist is some type of like external manifestation of the internal
struggle and conflict that th that the protectiveness has, you know what I mean?
So it was perfectly done in that way.
Jude: Yeah.
Oh yeah.
Cause I mean, right.
She had to, I mean, she's, she's trying to correct her past and she gets, and she has
to literally face her past, you know, and, and that, and it was just so well done.
Yeah.
Trey: So, uh, what about you, Tara?
What were, what were some things that surprised you about black widow?
Tara: Well, one of the things that I wanted to zero in on was the
credit scene that they put toward at the beginning of the movie,
after the cold open, so to speak.
And as far as I understand, that's the first time.
Since the incredible Hulk that one of these MCU films has had the credit
scene, where you get all of the actors names and like the big producers and
all of those people in the film at the, you know, at the beginning of the film.
And I was especially struck by and yeah, surprised by the tone of that credit
scene and some of the extremely haunting images within that credit scene, the
cover of smells like teen spirit was.
Also appropriately haunting and set a tone that I was not expecting.
It was a very dark tone and the rest of the film didn't carry a
dark tone consistently throughout.
Um, but I also thought that it was, it was appropriate in that, like, you
know, you are about to watch a film that as much as there might be some
hope in this film, uh, this is also a character who came to a tragic end.
So, uh, that examination of the darkest parts of her past being part of that
credit scene and, uh, kind of doing that exposition of her childhood
experience in that way was something that I wasn't necessarily expecting,
but it was something that I thought worked very effectively for me.
I don't know if that's going to be true across the board.
Um, if that took some people out.
If some viewers were, were confused by that, or if some viewers would have
preferred to see the story explicitly go into more of that part of her
life, but it was absolutely jarring and haunting and beautiful and sad.
And, uh, I think that it did surprise me that this movie dealt with abuse and
control and autonomy and these types of themes and in such a dark, in such a
Trey: dark way.
Yeah.
To speak to what you were saying about how heavy it was like that,
those opening sequence, uh, past the part of seeing the family life.
And we get those flashes with the title sequence.
I was like, am I in the right movie?
Like, this felt so different than anything we've seen in the MC.
And I think.
plus one, what you were saying about being effective, like as, as disorienting
as their childhood was, because I think Natasha already had an idea of it being
staged, but for Yelaina it was real to her, as she says later on in the film.
So creating that gut punch and showing us all in that title sequence, how
disorienting that life was, I think helps set the tone for the rest of the
movie, um, while not having to stay that heavy tone throughout, like, it
was so effective in the beginning, they were able to ride that emotional,
uh, catharsis to the point we see the other black widows freed because we
know how dark it was in the beginning.
Jude: Yeah, absolutely.
It's going to be on a.
By the time we choose things.
By the time we finished those opening credits, I was tearing up.
Like, I, I wasn't expecting how intense that was.
And I love that we, the very next shot coming off of that is black widow,
Natasha putting cold water in her face.
And it was like, cause that's exactly how I felt like I was just like, I get it.
I want to do the same thing after watching what, what was just there.
And so I think that was probably the most surprising thing to
me was just how intense it was.
And it still had its Marvel MCU moments, but I was really surprised how
intense it was all the way through it.
I don't want to say this because it's going to, no, I'm going to say this, but
I don't want to say this and have it come across as if it was, I mean, in a negative
way because I don't, but it felt like some of the action, action sequences.
Were there because they had to be, because it's an MCU movie, if that makes sense.
Not that it was bad, but it was like, it was so totally different, you know, from,
from those themes in particular, which I love the sequence, thinking about the, uh,
breaking out red guardian from the prison.
I love the sequence, but it was, so it was your typical MTU Marvel kind of action
piece that I'm glad I got to see black widow have that scene, but for the rest
of a lot of the themes and everything that tackled, it was just so different.
Trey: Yeah.
Yeah.
I know
Tara: for this on the table as go ahead.
Well, I guess what I was going to say, thinking about what you'd was just saying
is like, just to kind of put this on the table, but like, you know, maybe to table
it for a future conversation is like, I wonder to what extent currently in the
realm of the MCU, that there are writers and directors and people, creatives
being hired, who have these ideas to go to these really, um, maybe, maybe really
different or really dark or whatever, they may be types of places in the story.
And then our.
Kind of like, you know, slotting in the, here are the genre
conventions, you know what I mean?
Like I wonder just how exactly that's working.
Cause I know the MCU has attracted so many of these creatives who are
really, really unique in what they do and they're all kind of bringing
their own brand to the MCU and that's part of what makes the MCU so great.
Right?
Is that like there's a consistency to all of it across the board and
yet at the same time, there's also the individual flare that you get.
Um, so again, just kind of throwing that out there as I wonder if we're
going to continue to see more of that.
And, and certainly what we've seen in quote unquote, phase four, even
in the Disney plus shows is so much of this exploration of the trauma and
grief and these really dark themes.
It's interesting,
Trey: you know, that that's a good point, Tara, about the.
Phase four is exploring a lot of the trauma of these characters.
Um, one of the feelings that I had is it took me a second to readjust
to the pace of a Marvel movie, because I think I have been spoiled
by the shows, having time to breathe.
And it's not necessarily a bad thing, but it, it makes me feel like I'm a
little closer to what you were saying, Jude about like, oh, this is, this is
here because this is a Marvel movie.
And there were so many, like this action set piece led to this one
and to the next one and so on.
And it's not bad because I think the thing that makes the Marvel movie
special is that they can still find a way to pair those narrative moments.
But it was for a second of me, it's just being like, oh man, like I
need, I need to catch my breath.
This just keeps going.
Like, I think it was in that scene where you, Elena and Natasha were like
driving away from taskmaster in the tank.
And I'm like, man, I'm still, I'm still give me a second.
Jude: You know what?
I had a similar feeling.
Cause I, I, I think it was when they went down into the subway and my thought
was, was, was, is this what the rest of this movie is going to be just to chase?
Like, like, cause, cause it, it felt, well, we haven't had a
lot of action scenes like that through the shows, you know?
But again, the action was great.
I don't think it was bad.
It didn't, I didn't like, oh, okay.
You know, at all, um, it is, it is just different than what we've
been seeing since what February.
Um, and, and when you consider, we haven't had a movie in two
Trey: years, so I do want to say this and this is just half joke,
half actually surprised me, but man, Malina was so cruel to that pig.
And I'm surprised that that was just like a moment that was in the movie.
Tara: Did either of you guys get like the vibe when Natasha was
like, okay, that's enough now.
Like I had flashbacks to the one division scene with Mr.
Hart.
Oh yeah.
Jude: The
Tara: stop it.
So,
Jude: yeah, that's a good goal.
That's where my that's where my brain.
No, I.
Yeah, that's a good, that's a good call.
Now.
My brain, I was just, I was right there with Natasha, like before she even had
that line, I was just like the pig.
Like, are we really going to watch a pig pig, suffocate to death?
I know it's not a real big, but I don't really want to see this.
Like,
Trey: it was real to me.
Jude: Okay.
You're leaving
Trey: now.
I will say this because I talked about how I was so expecting a
Molina to turn out, to be taskmaster.
I thought this was going to be the show's like subtle hint of like,
oh, she's not who we think she is, because this is very, very cruel.
What they're doing to the page.
Well,
Jude: yeah, I mean, she's even like, ah, she, he has 11 more,
what does 11 more seconds?
And he'll be fine.
I was like, no, no, I'll be on like watching the show.
Okay.
So my youngest daughter saw the trailer and wanted to go see black widow.
And typically, and I kind of jokingly used this as an excuse to see it twice
within the first weekend where it's like, no, I gotta go see it first.
And then we'll decide which, I mean, for the Spider-Man movies, you know,
and honestly, infinity war and end game, all three of my girls were
like, no, we're going right away.
We're not, we're not waiting, but this one in the middle of it, even just that scene
with the pig, like, I don't know if I can take them, like how intense and, and some
of the stuff just cause my oldest pro.
Yeah.
But my younger two, I don't, I don't know for them, especially
like my middle daughter.
You know, they were watching a movie and a, and you know, your typical, you
think a character dies, but they didn't.
And she, you know, we would watch a movie and she just started balling
their dead why and stuff, and, you know, almost couldn't finish it.
She would lose it at the big
Tara: scene.
So was rise of Skywalker, a problem with the, you know, really ridiculous
Jude: Chewbacca man, because I consider, I consider myself protecting
them by not having shown them yet.
Rise of Skywalker.
Tara: You're protecting them in.
Jude: Oh, yeah.
So yeah, they have not
Tara: seen that one yet.
Sorry for being that person who I had to bring up a rise of Skywalker.
No, it's okay.
Jude: We're in the right place.
I stopped just short of saying, being a good parent by not showing it to them.
That's really my thought.
Trey: Oh man.
We, at some point we just, all three have to just do a star
wars episode and just take Jack.
Tara: That'd be great.
Trey: This is your invitation to your Atara.
Tara: That sounds like a lot of
Trey: fun.
So like we said, this was going to be just our initial reactions to seeing
black widow, um, I think that's going to do it, but before we wrap up, I think
the easiest way to do this is just to talk about some of our favorite moments.
Uh, if Tara, if we can start with you, what were some of your
favorite moments of black widow?
Tara: Sure.
So I did already mention the credit sequence, which as much as it
surprised me, it also, I'm counting it among my favorite moments
because it really, really stood out.
Um, but in addition to that, be I have a few other ones kind of just
going chronologically in order.
Uh, one of the other ones that really stood out to me was when
taskmaster runs into Natasha's car, on the bridge and she's listening
to a song that's like very 2016.
And I thought that was great.
It's a cheap thrills, I think.
And, um, when the, when she like her car gets completely smashed, um, it
legitimately scared me like, uh, and the person sitting next to me too, it was
like, we like kind of jumped a little bit.
And uh, so that's.
And I've only seen it once by the way.
And I don't know if I spoke with you, did you see it more than once yet?
Or just once I've
Trey: seen it once I've only seen it once and that as of this moment, I
haven't done the premier access yet, but
Jude: say totally premier access yet, but I do plan on it.
Yeah.
Tara: Okay, cool.
Yeah.
And I, the only reason why I brought that up is because for me, like thinking about
favorite moments, I, it, it's, it's a very fun mental exercise to really think
about like what stood out just on the first watch before seeing it multiple
times before looking at, you know, maybe listening to other podcasts or before
looking at too much discourse online other than maybe some tweets here and there.
So, um, so yeah, that scene really stood out to me because it got
a reaction out of me and other people in the theater as well.
So after that scene, um, the Natasha Angelina fight scene,
when they first reunite.
Really cool.
A great hand to hand combat scene.
I think I mentioned previously, I don't know if I did the car chase
scene or one of you guys mentioned the car chase scene, which I thought
was really great action set piece.
I also alluded to the scene where Yulaina gets emotional at the dinner table with
the like quote unquote family reunion.
That whole part was really, really well done.
You guys mentioned that the pig aspect, which was pretty disturbing, um, but
the conversation between all of them, the whole like stop slouching, just
like that kind of, um, just like the families feel like these four people who.
Re biologically or not family.
Right?
Like th their family construct was completely created for
these ulterior motives.
And yet here they are thrown together again and navigating
what that relationship is.
I thought that was really interesting to watch.
And it was also funny and it was also sweet and it was also sad.
And so I liked that scene a lot.
And, um, And, uh, just to add to that too, uh, following that scene up red
guardian in the room with Yulaina when they were singing American pie
right before the house was invaded, I thought that was really well done.
Trey: Uh, I think the most out of any of it, just like the, the, the,
just Alexi trying to reconnect, and this is the only thing he could as a
proof of, like, it was real to me too.
It was like, oh, the water
Tara: works.
It was really relevant.
Well done.
And it, it got to her too, because she started singing a little bit too and
started smiling and, and nothing else was getting through to her when he
was trying to talk when she, when he was trying to like, level with her and
just be like, yeah, well, my father, you know, and it just wasn't working.
Um, but I, I thought that was really beautiful.
I thought the choice of American pie as a song was really, um, really well
done for what that song represents.
Jude: Um,
Tara: yeah.
Yeah.
And then I guess the last one that really stood out to me, I mean, this
was a fantastic like movie and, and I think the more times I see it,
there are going to be more scenes.
But yeah, the last one that I had noted was, and perhaps, perhaps my
absolute favorite was when Natasha was coaxing Drake off to hit her.
And the way, like the ways that Scarlett Johannson performed it, I was just so, so
great to me, like just so compelling and the way that she kind of smiled at him.
And it was just, it was a weird Sterling type of scene.
And then of course she follows it up with like, you know, the sever,
the nerve line and injuring herself.
And that's a scene I'm really looking forward to rewatching because, cause
it was dark and, uh, Upsetting.
And yet the way she performed it with the, I mean, in the character, right.
Having such kind of confidence, um, it's just very intriguing.
So I'm looking forward to revisiting that.
Trey: Yeah.
I don't know if anyone has made breaking their nose look as cool
as black widow did for them.
And to fall, to, to, to preface it by saying, because you
weren't strong enough to do this.
I have to.
And then just bam.
And I was like, oh man, she's so cool.
It was
Tara: pretty awesome.
Trey: So, uh, what about you ju do you have some favorite moments from the movie?
Uh,
Jude: yeah, I too.
I love the opening sequence with the family and the choice of American pie.
That was great.
The other two things that there's a lot of scenes that stood out to me,
but the other two that really stood out the most when red guardian was
doing the arm wrestling contest.
Mm.
And you know, talking about, uh, fighting captain America in 83, and
then the next chart to call him on it.
Like he was still frozen.
Like, what are you, what are you talking about?
There was a small part of me.
Okay.
So you mentioned thinking about the wand division scene.
There was a small part of me that, that my head went to Isaiah Bradley was like,
oh, I was hoping it would be pin him.
Uh, I know within the show continuity, it wasn't, you know,
um, but my head kind of went there.
Oh, maybe he fought as a Bradley.
That scene really stood out to me.
And I really liked the scene where she was making fun of her for
the poses and culinary opposers.
And because I just kept thinking, like, they're talking about which one's a
killer and stuff, but they're in this gas station and she's doing that like right
in front of the person that works there.
Yeah.
And, and I just, you know, okay, so they're talking English and he doesn't
understand English otherwise, like you're having this debate on, who's a killer, at
least I'm a killer, that's helping people.
And, and, and I just thought that was, it was so funny, cause it was such
a good moment between them, but also the place in which they were having
that conversation, which just was just comic was, was just also comical to me.
So those, those scenes really jumped out to me.
Trey: I can jump into mine because it pairs with yours, dude, you know,
the, the conversation about the pose and how you Lana didn't understand it.
The one that got me the most was actually in the red room where she
takes out one of the guards and she finishes by doing the pose.
And then gets up and just kinda like pretends to gag and just
like, oh, I don't like that.
And it was just like, what a great followup to an
established bit in the beginning.
Um, I really, really enjoyed that.
And then, uh, another one that I enjoy, it's just the whole sequencing of,
you know, cause they, they played, it were like, okay, maybe Molina is not
taskmaster, but does look like she is still in cahoots with Drake off and they
pulled off the face mask switch again.
And it was that classic heist of like, we're going to explain what we're doing
while we're doing it because of editing and it's going to feel so seamless.
Like not only was it a celebration of stuff we've seen, uh, Natasha do back
in winter soldier, but it's just such a great trope of like in movies that
it just, I really, really enjoyed that.
That was great.
And I get, I mean, this one feels like an obvious one, but just to throw it in here,
because to give us a chance to talk about it, uh, the integ, like I was so expecting
this movie, like not expecting it going in, but when we were watching the in tag
and we see Elena do the whistle and I was like, no, there's no way they're going to
give us a hint that Natasha might be back.
And then they immediately disrupted with, uh, contested blowing her nose.
That was such a great way to set up that moment.
Jude: You know what interesting.
I was kind of expecting the whistle back, but it being, um, like Hawkeye.
Oh, um, but I guess we did get to see Hawkeye.
Tara: Yeah.
I was wondering if Hawkeye was going to make more of a, of
an appearance in this movie.
Um, like a fuller cameo.
I mean, obviously he didn't really make a cameo at all.
It was just a picture of him, but, um, obviously they, they addressed
his, his existence there in the end and there was the whole Budapest bit.
And so obviously that was kind of a reference to him as well.
But, um, that was one thing that I wasn't sure going in.
I thought maybe we would see a little bit more of him.
And I guess instead of putting him in this, they're kind of more setting up,
uh, where that might go in the future.
But the, uh, I'll tell you the audience in the theater that I
was in all gasped at that moment.
And a guy got a reaction it's so
Jude: fun to be in the theater and they get that kind of collective reaction.
Yeah.
Now I did text this with Trey.
We usually don't talk about, and we know we're going to review something.
We usually don't talk about it in until the review or,
and I guess react or whatever.
I'm really glad we got to see Falcon, winter soldier first and
was introduced to, uh, to Valentina there rather than at the end.
That's an
Tara: interesting thought.
I was curious about whether or not they changed her scene after the
right, like once the timeline of the release changed and they realized
she was going to be in Falcon first.
I was curious if they actually adjusted what her scene in black widow was,
but maybe they didn't, maybe they only adjusted her scene in Falcon.
I'm
Jude: not sure.
Um, I, that that'll probably come out, but I'm really curious to know about that.
Yeah.
Trey: And so just, just for context, uh, the original timeline of these
movies, I believe was that in 2020 Blackwood, it was going to come out.
And then that August, this is the one I'm a little iffy on that.
August is when Falcon and the winter soldier was supposed to come out.
So it should have been this first, um, which I agree with Jude.
I do like, because it makes her appearance a lot more meaningful having seen her
and fogging in the winter soldier.
Uh, but that's also a good point on your entire that they could have changed this
knowing, uh, the way things played out.
So yeah, it'd be good to get some answers on that.
The
Jude: only, the only reason why I'm not, I well, and I'm sure it'll come out, but
I've, I've seen stories and heard stories.
Uh, I think from the director of Shortland, Cate Shortland,
that, that the black widow is literally just like finished and
sitting on the shelf for a year.
Tara: Okay.
Um,
Jude: I mean, that doesn't mean they can't do something, you know?
I mean, cause once they know before they put it on the shelf, they're
going to start knowing as they change release dates, you know what I mean?
And move and shuffle those around.
So.
So, yeah, I can't wait to see some of these interviews.
We'll see.
We'll see what happens.
Totally.
Trey: Yeah.
Well, I think that's going to do it for these quick reactions to blank widows.
So I do want to say Tara, thank you so much for joining us, joining us on this.
It's been a long time coming and I'm so glad we finally got to,
uh, do this episode together.
Tara: Me too.
This was a blast and I, for any, any listeners who, who don't know, I
know, I, I think we've addressed this a couple of times, but this was the,
the first proposition from you guys about me, guessing on your show was,
Hey, let's do a black widow reactions.
And that's when we were all idealist thinking that was
going to come out last summer.
So it does feel very much like full circle that we're finally here
and gotta talk about it together.
And it was really a lot of fun.
So thank you for having me.
Thank you for coming.
Trey: Yeah.
And of course, if you're listening and you enjoyed this episode and especially
terrorists thoughts, you can find more of her insights on black widow and a lot more
in the MCU by subscribing to our podcast, there was an idea, a Marvel cinematic
universe podcast, um, and be sure to follow them on Twitter and Instagram
at an idea underscore podcast, really, really great follows and subscribe.
Thank you.
Uh, this episode, if you'd like to comment or leave us with any of your thoughts,
you can always reach us at MCD to know on Twitter and Instagram, or if you'd
like to join our discord, uh, you can find a link to it in the show notes.
It's a lovely community of people who are just as excited about the MCU as we are.
And, uh, you can join in the conversation.
Jude: Yeah.
And when you make your way over to the discord, make sure you go to the
role of sign, click on the eye emojis.
It'll give you access to all our spoiler channels and the most recent
spoiler channel for black widow.
Also, please be sure to follow us where you ever, you get your podcast,
a rating and reviews for feedback on apple podcast is always helpful.
Then of course, the biggest thing you can do for us is to share with a friend.
Yeah.
Trey: We'd also like to thank Nick Sandy for the use of our theme song, which
is his rendition of the Avengers theme.
You can find more of his work on a SoundCloud, which
is linked in the show notes.
All right, that's going to do it.
Thank you so much for listening and June Tara.
Thank you so much for
Jude: doing this.
Thank you, Trey.
Thank you, Tara.
Tara: Thanks guys.
Trey: We'll see you all next week.
Well, you know, like we said, this was going to be just kind of quick
initial reactions of black widow.
So I think the best way that we can put a wrap on this is just to go through some
of our favorite moments of the movie.
Um, and Terra, if we can start with you, uh, what were some of your
favorite movies from black widow?
I said that wrong.
Let me start.
What was your favorite movie in black?
Tara: Well, I liked the part when in the credits they were watching
the television show, duck tales, which is not exactly a movie,
Jude: but in my heart, it's a movie cause I've binged them
and they're all run together.
Trey: There you go.
Okay.
Let me start over.
It's been a long week.
I apologize.
Tara: It's fair.
We've all been podcasting like crazy.
Jude: 1, 2, 3.
This is our fourth recording this week.
Hmm.
Tara: Wow.
I, yeah, I guess technically it's my fourth recording
Trey: too.
Yeah.
No.
Okay.
So let me, let me get back into.