WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.120 Matt: Katie Keith, welcome back to the WP Minute. 00:00:02.720 --> 00:00:02.880 Katie: Yeah. 00:00:02.880 --> 00:00:03.840 Thanks for having me back. 00:00:03.850 --> 00:00:04.610 Good to be here. 00:00:05.630 --> 00:00:09.110 Matt: I've donned you my unofficial, official nemesis on Twitter, 00:00:09.360 --> 00:00:14.629 for your ability to get so much, interaction, and engagement. 00:00:14.639 --> 00:00:15.630 You do a fantastic job. 00:00:15.630 --> 00:00:18.669 And I, I sort of joked, a few Months ago, maybe at this point. 00:00:18.669 --> 00:00:23.259 I can't remember because time is weird, but You do a fantastic job on Twitter 00:00:23.529 --> 00:00:27.159 And I want to talk I want to start with that a lot of folks talk about 00:00:27.159 --> 00:00:32.329 like building in public You are very transparent on in public on Twitter 00:00:32.869 --> 00:00:39.249 strategy naturally curious in Exploratory do you have a strategy on the Twitter 00:00:39.249 --> 00:00:40.969 thing inquiring minds want to know? 00:00:42.019 --> 00:00:44.469 Katie: I would say not explicitly. 00:00:44.519 --> 00:00:49.769 it's like, I suppose an unconscious strategy might've evolved over time. 00:00:49.779 --> 00:00:55.189 Like I only joined, two years and two months ago, so I'm pretty new really. 00:00:55.279 --> 00:00:59.730 and, so it took me a while to learn, but you'll notice over time, 00:00:59.740 --> 00:01:01.870 my tweets have gotten more real. 00:01:01.900 --> 00:01:07.345 And I, I try not, I don't want to be like, One of those guru people. 00:01:07.345 --> 00:01:10.385 They, they, they make themselves sound like a guru and they do 00:01:10.385 --> 00:01:13.915 things like sentences on Twitter that sound like it came out of a 00:01:13.915 --> 00:01:15.775 business advice book or something. 00:01:15.785 --> 00:01:17.355 That's not what I want to be. 00:01:17.355 --> 00:01:21.105 I'd rather have conversations rather than trying to preach 00:01:21.115 --> 00:01:22.825 at people and things like that. 00:01:23.600 --> 00:01:26.510 Matt: Yeah, it seems Twitter has actually become a pretty good sounding 00:01:26.510 --> 00:01:28.830 board for, for you as a founder. 00:01:28.930 --> 00:01:34.140 you know, is, is that a sort of go to place for, you know, engaging with 00:01:34.160 --> 00:01:37.470 other founders or are you part of other, like, a lot of, and I know a lot of 00:01:37.470 --> 00:01:41.180 founders get into like masterminds and, and monthly calls, quarterly meetups. 00:01:41.570 --> 00:01:44.290 what does that look like in your world for like that sort of. 00:01:44.895 --> 00:01:49.225 Semi solo founder journey, but, reaching out for advice every now and again. 00:01:50.225 --> 00:01:53.885 Katie: Well, my team actually laugh at me because whenever we need to 00:01:53.885 --> 00:01:58.285 do some research or we're unsure of something, I say, Oh, I'll tweet 00:01:58.285 --> 00:01:59.205 it and that'll give us an answer. 00:01:59.940 --> 00:02:06.380 And it always does it's amazing and it's not my only source of advice by any means 00:02:06.380 --> 00:02:09.110 I have my team which is about 20 people. 00:02:09.320 --> 00:02:13.080 I have a really well established mastermind group We've been together 00:02:13.080 --> 00:02:17.980 five years and we talk every day on slack calls every two weeks and we share 00:02:18.010 --> 00:02:23.360 our experiences and I get loads out of that But twitter has kind of become an 00:02:23.360 --> 00:02:28.970 additional way to get basically free business advice from really great people. 00:02:29.030 --> 00:02:33.700 some of the top people in WordPress will happily answer my questions and share. 00:02:33.870 --> 00:02:37.020 And I try to do the same when other people ask. 00:02:37.020 --> 00:02:43.275 So I find that Twitter opens you up to a kind of wider pool of people that have 00:02:43.285 --> 00:02:48.505 lots of relevant experience and I use it in all sorts of ways, not just things like 00:02:48.505 --> 00:02:54.465 strategy questions and what do you think of this idea, but also like hiring people. 00:02:54.465 --> 00:02:58.645 I've hired quite a lot of people that I got to know on Twitter, whether 00:02:58.645 --> 00:03:00.695 it's for freelance work or in house. 00:03:00.735 --> 00:03:01.335 team members. 00:03:01.865 --> 00:03:03.665 I hate advertising jobs. 00:03:03.675 --> 00:03:05.955 It's such a pain and takes forever. 00:03:06.225 --> 00:03:10.525 but actually once you've built a network on Twitter, you can just reach 00:03:10.525 --> 00:03:14.425 out to people who you respect through Twitter that you know a bit about them. 00:03:14.425 --> 00:03:18.965 And that's probably more promising than spending weeks and weeks advertising 00:03:20.135 --> 00:03:23.195 Matt: Katie Keith is the co founder of Barn2 Plugins, Barn2. 00:03:23.215 --> 00:03:28.175 com, and on that Twitter, ecosystem you recently announced that while 00:03:28.175 --> 00:03:31.835 you're heavily focused on WooCommerce, and creating WooCommerce plugins 00:03:31.835 --> 00:03:34.765 and solutions, and of course other plugins for WordPress, but you're 00:03:35.085 --> 00:03:38.445 sort of shifting gears a bit and introducing Shopify into the mix. 00:03:38.465 --> 00:03:39.895 Really excited to talk about that today. 00:03:39.895 --> 00:03:42.535 We're gonna, we're gonna save that to the end and keep that audience member, 00:03:42.615 --> 00:03:44.575 that listener engaged, through the show. 00:03:44.585 --> 00:03:46.235 So, I noticed you haven't. 00:03:46.490 --> 00:03:47.530 Set up blue sky yet. 00:03:47.560 --> 00:03:48.800 Are you on blue sky? 00:03:48.800 --> 00:03:51.340 Are you thinking about, you know, splitting your time 00:03:51.810 --> 00:03:53.180 on the other social media? 00:03:54.215 --> 00:03:54.945 Katie: right now. 00:03:54.945 --> 00:03:59.255 No, it just feels like one is enough to do properly. 00:04:00.805 --> 00:04:02.615 I've got a bit put off with Facebook. 00:04:02.645 --> 00:04:07.725 I've used Facebook personally for years, but then when WordPress people started 00:04:07.735 --> 00:04:09.825 adding me, there was a lot of duplication. 00:04:10.055 --> 00:04:15.315 So my Facebook feed became full of Facebook posts that were the same as 00:04:15.345 --> 00:04:16.975 things they'd already posted on Twitter. 00:04:17.005 --> 00:04:18.515 And I find that really annoying. 00:04:18.515 --> 00:04:20.895 I don't want to see the same thing more than once. 00:04:21.330 --> 00:04:25.720 So my guess is that blue sky is a lot of that, and people that 00:04:25.720 --> 00:04:27.050 I'm already connecting with. 00:04:27.050 --> 00:04:29.510 So I don't want to spend time looking through a second 00:04:29.520 --> 00:04:31.370 feed with the same content. 00:04:31.720 --> 00:04:37.370 I may be wrong there, but I don't feel I have the energy to do justice 00:04:37.370 --> 00:04:39.030 to multiple platforms right now. 00:04:39.310 --> 00:04:42.470 People also say go on LinkedIn and I really can't be bothered. 00:04:43.450 --> 00:04:49.250 Matt: yeah Yeah, i've i've totally pulled out of uh of of facebook 00:04:49.270 --> 00:04:51.980 both personally and professionally for for a while now, right? 00:04:52.110 --> 00:04:56.520 I I don't really spend any time there unless I need to go like check something 00:04:56.750 --> 00:05:01.615 specific but yeah, I think a lot of folks who are Dipping their toes into 00:05:01.615 --> 00:05:04.795 the blue sky waters or doing that. 00:05:04.795 --> 00:05:05.035 Right. 00:05:05.245 --> 00:05:05.755 I'm doing it. 00:05:05.755 --> 00:05:09.355 I'm copying and pasting the same thing I'm posting on Twitter and 00:05:09.425 --> 00:05:10.305 Katie: Interesting. 00:05:10.765 --> 00:05:13.355 No one's told me that, but I suspected. 00:05:14.105 --> 00:05:14.555 Matt: Yeah. 00:05:14.645 --> 00:05:18.065 And now there, there are times where I do feel more compelled to just 00:05:18.065 --> 00:05:19.235 like, write something in blue sky. 00:05:19.235 --> 00:05:20.105 Blue sky, really? 00:05:20.315 --> 00:05:21.065 You know, I listen. 00:05:21.245 --> 00:05:23.465 I think there's a lot of people who have just like everything 00:05:23.465 --> 00:05:25.475 else in life, my God, can we stop? 00:05:25.475 --> 00:05:26.795 It's been politicized. 00:05:27.095 --> 00:05:27.365 like. 00:05:28.035 --> 00:05:33.265 Yeah, like everything else and it's just like look I like it because there are no 00:05:33.285 --> 00:05:38.305 ads right now there's no algorithm just like constantly throwing like rage content 00:05:38.335 --> 00:05:45.005 at me and It is like the essence of what Twitter was Many many years ago where oh 00:05:45.005 --> 00:05:50.775 my god third party developers that can access it API access third party apps like 00:05:50.975 --> 00:05:57.155 all that is great right now Until I know the eventual closing of API and data and 00:05:57.165 --> 00:06:00.955 the ads will come and I'm just like right now I just want to enjoy this product 00:06:00.965 --> 00:06:06.675 that is very reminiscent of Twitter that I really enjoyed and Yeah, like I don't 00:06:06.675 --> 00:06:11.420 know where it's gonna go, but I am quasi investing in that This is gonna be a, 00:06:11.420 --> 00:06:13.210 this is a long rant about like Twitter. 00:06:13.210 --> 00:06:18.890 I love Twitter, or X, and I love, I love it because the feed is largely text based 00:06:19.020 --> 00:06:23.640 and I can just literally see more on my screen at one time, whether that's on 00:06:23.640 --> 00:06:27.569 my mobile phone or my, or my desktop, on my, my monitor, my laptop, whatever. 00:06:28.279 --> 00:06:34.605 Whereas you do go to something like A Facebook or a LinkedIn and the posts 00:06:34.615 --> 00:06:39.445 just take up, it's like posts, ads, posts, ads, and it's just these big 00:06:39.455 --> 00:06:44.664 blocks of content with so much happening on LinkedIn that I too, I'm like, 00:06:44.805 --> 00:06:46.225 I need to do better at this thing. 00:06:46.474 --> 00:06:50.755 And I don't because I'm exhausted just looking at the feet, whereas I don't 00:06:50.755 --> 00:06:52.065 get that with Twitter and blue sky. 00:06:53.475 --> 00:06:54.085 Katie: Yeah, true. 00:06:54.990 --> 00:06:55.280 Matt: Yeah. 00:06:55.790 --> 00:07:00.130 let's talk about your other content marketing strategies at Barn2. 00:07:00.200 --> 00:07:04.149 YouTube, live streams, of course you do, the product talk podcast as 00:07:04.149 --> 00:07:06.250 well with your, team of podcasters. 00:07:06.520 --> 00:07:11.190 but how is the, what's the strategy looking like for 2025 with video and, 00:07:11.260 --> 00:07:13.680 and other content related to Barn2? 00:07:14.645 --> 00:07:18.365 Katie: Well, our primary content channel is and has always 00:07:18.365 --> 00:07:21.394 been SEO content on our blog. 00:07:21.654 --> 00:07:25.225 I know everyone keeps saying Google's dead, SEO is dead. 00:07:25.495 --> 00:07:31.350 But even if it's replaced by AI, The AIs need something to crawl and 00:07:31.360 --> 00:07:33.680 index, which can come from our blog. 00:07:33.680 --> 00:07:37.840 So the vast majority of our sales still come from our blog. 00:07:38.100 --> 00:07:41.299 So that is our main channel where we put a lot of resources. 00:07:41.530 --> 00:07:46.390 But we do have a full time YouTuber, Sam, who's been with us two years now. 00:07:46.649 --> 00:07:49.810 So he's putting out regular content on YouTube. 00:07:50.120 --> 00:07:53.390 And that's our second biggest source of sales. 00:07:53.410 --> 00:07:57.270 It's way behind Google organic, but it is significant. 00:07:57.280 --> 00:07:59.990 So that's a good sort of backup, I suppose. 00:07:59.990 --> 00:08:04.120 Like, about six months ago, we had a temporary drop in the Google search 00:08:04.120 --> 00:08:07.790 results after an algorithm change, which had never happened before. 00:08:07.790 --> 00:08:08.939 So that was scary. 00:08:09.180 --> 00:08:12.930 And the YouTube actually grew during that period, presumably for the 00:08:12.930 --> 00:08:16.770 same algorithm reason that while the blog went down, the YouTube went up. 00:08:17.070 --> 00:08:19.059 So it is good to have more than one channel. 00:08:20.205 --> 00:08:20.525 Matt: Yeah. 00:08:20.855 --> 00:08:25.055 Have you, have you tested the, AI results, like searching your own product 00:08:25.055 --> 00:08:28.354 or like your own knowledge base on how to do something, but asking like 00:08:28.354 --> 00:08:32.234 chat GPT or Claude and, and analyzing what they're giving you for results. 00:08:32.980 --> 00:08:38.220 Katie: I have a bit and it does recommend our products appropriately and also 00:08:38.240 --> 00:08:44.569 we've seen sales from AI particularly perplexity AI in our analytics as 00:08:44.570 --> 00:08:46.690 well as the source of conversion. 00:08:46.690 --> 00:08:47.939 So that's nice to see. 00:08:48.250 --> 00:08:50.569 And customers is telling us more and more. 00:08:50.790 --> 00:08:53.780 I bought your plugin because chat GPT recommended it. 00:08:53.800 --> 00:08:55.680 So that's really good as well. 00:08:56.045 --> 00:08:56.435 Matt: Yeah. 00:08:56.515 --> 00:08:57.575 Good and scary. 00:08:57.615 --> 00:08:57.875 Right. 00:08:58.804 --> 00:09:00.165 what on the YouTube channel? 00:09:00.165 --> 00:09:04.315 I know Sam, it's, I actually saw him at the last, I don't even know what the 00:09:04.315 --> 00:09:09.125 official title is for it, but it's like Anne McCarthy from Automatic does like 00:09:09.125 --> 00:09:13.884 a roundup of YouTubers, every month and they, they train us on, you know, stuff 00:09:13.885 --> 00:09:15.505 coming out of Automatic and WordPress. 00:09:15.505 --> 00:09:18.474 And I saw Sam on there, and he's, just to give some kudos to Sam. 00:09:18.474 --> 00:09:19.444 He's really engaging. 00:09:19.664 --> 00:09:21.944 He's, you know, he's saying like, Hey, I'm kind of new to the 00:09:21.944 --> 00:09:23.204 space and I, and I'm learning. 00:09:23.404 --> 00:09:24.804 and it's great to connect with other people. 00:09:24.804 --> 00:09:26.884 So he, you know, he's, he's doing his job. 00:09:27.094 --> 00:09:29.994 I know it might be review time, so let's, let's give Sam a little bump. 00:09:30.224 --> 00:09:32.504 Uh, and it's, and it's great. 00:09:32.664 --> 00:09:36.434 What other things are you thinking about other than like the tutorial videos? 00:09:36.434 --> 00:09:38.604 I I've seen some like office hours kind of things. 00:09:38.604 --> 00:09:41.789 Like what else is working for you for content on, on YouTube? 00:09:42.404 --> 00:09:47.314 Katie: Yeah, we started the live streams that you mentioned a year ago and I do 00:09:47.314 --> 00:09:52.374 those with Sam and he's a good person to do those with because he, from setting 00:09:52.374 --> 00:09:56.974 up the tutorials, he knows our products really well so he's able to answer 00:09:56.974 --> 00:09:59.364 questions live as well as they come in. 00:10:00.579 --> 00:10:02.539 So we're quite a good team with that. 00:10:02.539 --> 00:10:05.899 And we always get loads of people watching live, quite a lot of 00:10:05.899 --> 00:10:08.719 questions, both live and pre submitted. 00:10:08.739 --> 00:10:13.319 And I was really surprised that they work actually, because we've got 19 00:10:13.329 --> 00:10:15.389 premium plugins, which are quite diverse. 00:10:15.934 --> 00:10:18.584 They're not all WooCommerce, although they mostly are. 00:10:18.864 --> 00:10:22.064 So they don't necessarily have a theme to bring them together. 00:10:22.314 --> 00:10:26.364 So I was reluctant to start a live stream because I thought why would anybody 00:10:26.364 --> 00:10:29.934 want to watch it all the way through when we have so many different products? 00:10:29.964 --> 00:10:32.514 But they do, for some reason. 00:10:32.674 --> 00:10:35.074 I also don't know why anybody would subscribe to our 00:10:35.074 --> 00:10:36.624 newsletter for the same reason. 00:10:36.624 --> 00:10:40.919 It's all these random plugins, but we've got loads and loads of subscribers. 00:10:40.919 --> 00:10:46.004 And so People do seem to be interested just in what we're doing generally 00:10:46.224 --> 00:10:50.384 and willing to sit through content on plugins they may not yet know about and 00:10:50.384 --> 00:10:54.234 hopefully they will then buy plugins that they didn't know they wanted. 00:10:55.169 --> 00:10:59.319 Matt: Yeah, I, I think there's going to be, you know, as wonderful as, you 00:10:59.319 --> 00:11:03.729 know, or maybe not wonderful is not the right word, but as efficient as AI 00:11:03.729 --> 00:11:08.329 is making some things and people are like interested in AI from like the 00:11:08.339 --> 00:11:11.719 business perspective in, in like the research, like give me this answer and 00:11:11.719 --> 00:11:13.439 explain it more like, you know, better. 00:11:13.679 --> 00:11:15.679 Better than like just doing a Google search. 00:11:16.009 --> 00:11:19.799 I think there's still going to be this desire to have a human connection. 00:11:19.939 --> 00:11:20.279 Right? 00:11:20.409 --> 00:11:25.169 recently I switched from, so to give an example, like I'm at the point 00:11:25.169 --> 00:11:28.309 where, and we kind of see this in the WordPress space and this is the next 00:11:28.319 --> 00:11:30.269 topic that we're going to transition to. 00:11:30.579 --> 00:11:32.199 but people want humans, right? 00:11:32.974 --> 00:11:34.104 to be served by humans. 00:11:34.104 --> 00:11:36.244 They want, I hope anyway, they want to be served by humans. 00:11:36.394 --> 00:11:38.874 They want to know who's behind a particular product. 00:11:39.334 --> 00:11:43.554 And, you know, we see all this stuff happening with, with WordPress and 00:11:43.554 --> 00:11:48.354 we, we kind of know like who owns WordPress, we know who develops it. 00:11:48.354 --> 00:11:50.334 And that's largely why we choose WordPress. 00:11:50.754 --> 00:11:56.814 But recently I switched from MailChimp to ConvertKit, or now just called Kit because 00:11:56.884 --> 00:12:00.864 I was just like, you know, I, into it. 00:12:01.644 --> 00:12:03.374 Like, I don't know anybody over there. 00:12:03.404 --> 00:12:06.244 I don't care about this megacorp. 00:12:06.264 --> 00:12:07.574 They don't care about me. 00:12:07.874 --> 00:12:10.824 I want to make conscious purchasing decisions for my business 00:12:10.824 --> 00:12:15.594 software that I know I just know who the people are who make it. 00:12:15.824 --> 00:12:16.064 Right? 00:12:16.104 --> 00:12:18.664 And I think that's one of the long term advantages WordPress has had 00:12:18.674 --> 00:12:20.084 being open source and connected. 00:12:20.484 --> 00:12:23.404 And maybe that's a thing with like, YouTube, like you maybe scratch 00:12:23.404 --> 00:12:25.474 your head sometimes, like why did anybody want to watch this? 00:12:25.844 --> 00:12:31.144 I hope that there's consumers out there that are, that want that human connection. 00:12:31.144 --> 00:12:36.194 To know who's behind it, and to know like where their dollars are going, you know? 00:12:36.244 --> 00:12:37.314 Other than just buying the product. 00:12:37.334 --> 00:12:39.114 They just want to know who's behind this, who's making this. 00:12:39.134 --> 00:12:43.154 What's their vision for the long term of, of my business that runs their software? 00:12:43.154 --> 00:12:44.904 So, I think there's something there. 00:12:44.944 --> 00:12:48.674 I don't know if you've Thought about that or how you see that like that human 00:12:48.674 --> 00:12:50.324 connection or how important it is to you. 00:12:51.324 --> 00:12:53.844 Katie: Yeah, I think that's more and more important the last 00:12:53.844 --> 00:12:55.684 couple of years for two reasons. 00:12:55.994 --> 00:13:01.614 One is AI, because a lot of content is being produced by AI now, and so by having 00:13:01.614 --> 00:13:06.564 real humans, I think, obviously the deep fakes are coming, but for now, people 00:13:06.564 --> 00:13:10.394 I think believe, for example, that me and Sam on the livestreams are actually 00:13:10.394 --> 00:13:12.824 real people, and Sam on our YouTube. 00:13:13.174 --> 00:13:17.804 And we try to add that personal touch to various things like we might have 00:13:17.814 --> 00:13:23.804 my name and signature and photo at the end of an email like an, I don't know, 00:13:23.864 --> 00:13:28.124 abandoned cart email or something to show this is a company of real people. 00:13:28.564 --> 00:13:32.834 And the second reason I think that has become more important is maybe 00:13:32.864 --> 00:13:37.404 probably three years ago now, a lot of WordPress companies were acquired by 00:13:37.414 --> 00:13:42.484 larger companies and a lot of them I think became less personal as a result. 00:13:42.819 --> 00:13:46.889 Some of them kept their original founders who continued advocating for those 00:13:46.889 --> 00:13:52.479 companies even after being acquired and others lost that personal faith. 00:13:52.489 --> 00:13:57.429 So I think that since Farm 2 is independent, there is a person that is, 00:13:57.509 --> 00:14:02.584 reasonably known within the WordPress space, running it, and even talking openly 00:14:02.584 --> 00:14:04.544 about how I run it and things like that. 00:14:04.874 --> 00:14:07.434 I think that that adds credibility. 00:14:07.624 --> 00:14:12.124 And while the people that follow me on say Twitter, aren't necessarily my target 00:14:12.174 --> 00:14:16.604 market, because a lot of them are product people rather than potential customers. 00:14:17.044 --> 00:14:21.154 There are, for example, agencies and developers following me who do buy 00:14:21.214 --> 00:14:25.764 plugins and have said that they're more likely to buy our products as a 00:14:25.764 --> 00:14:27.744 result of that personal connection. 00:14:28.914 --> 00:14:34.694 Matt: Yeah a lot of this was Had me like why I was critically thinking about it. 00:14:34.694 --> 00:14:37.014 I mean, I've been thinking about it for years in fact, I was going back through 00:14:37.014 --> 00:14:41.024 my Some of my youtube videos on the Matt report channel, you know where I 00:14:41.034 --> 00:14:45.694 talked about You know, this goes back and I'm not like the only person who 00:14:45.824 --> 00:14:50.754 has said it, but like go back like five, eight years, 10 years talking about like 00:14:50.764 --> 00:14:52.384 why human connection is so important. 00:14:52.384 --> 00:14:56.554 But, recently with all this WordPress stuff that's happening, we recently 00:14:56.554 --> 00:15:00.914 saw at the time of this recording the injunction come down from, the court and 00:15:00.914 --> 00:15:05.844 sort of in favor of, of WP Engine and, Matt Mullenweg wasn't too happy about 00:15:05.844 --> 00:15:10.344 it and was very verbose, for lack of a better phrase, in post status, sort of 00:15:10.344 --> 00:15:13.794 commenting on it and, and quitting post status, largely, I guess, because of it. 00:15:14.164 --> 00:15:17.614 And it really has me You know, had me thinking about, okay, 00:15:17.614 --> 00:15:19.024 where am I going with my dollars? 00:15:19.024 --> 00:15:21.184 Who am I like partnering my business with? 00:15:21.704 --> 00:15:24.644 And I've, I've heard people say like, well, I'm switching 00:15:24.644 --> 00:15:25.714 content management systems. 00:15:25.904 --> 00:15:27.794 I'm getting out of WordPress entirely. 00:15:28.014 --> 00:15:30.204 I'm starting to look for alternatives. 00:15:30.634 --> 00:15:33.414 has this impacted you and your team? 00:15:33.414 --> 00:15:35.244 I mean, we're going to talk about the Shopify thing. 00:15:35.354 --> 00:15:38.514 Maybe that's, this is part of the reason, but has it like 00:15:38.534 --> 00:15:40.214 boots on the ground impacted? 00:15:40.444 --> 00:15:42.474 Maybe your customers are asking you about it. 00:15:42.514 --> 00:15:43.734 what the long term. 00:15:44.469 --> 00:15:47.789 Lifespan of WordPress is how has it impacted you this whole scenario? 00:15:49.034 --> 00:15:54.484 Katie: Well, no customer has ever mentioned it to me or my support team. 00:15:54.704 --> 00:15:59.134 It has never been mentioned in any of the comments on a live stream. 00:15:59.134 --> 00:16:02.034 So I feel that we need to acknowledge this. 00:16:02.134 --> 00:16:06.514 so internally, I have been worried and we'll talk about this more with 00:16:06.554 --> 00:16:11.334 Shopify stuff in a way that I haven't before about potential future risk, 00:16:11.604 --> 00:16:14.404 but this risk has not yet materialized. 00:16:14.894 --> 00:16:20.184 And, we have, our sales are about the same as they were last year, which isn't great. 00:16:20.224 --> 00:16:23.704 But, that actually, we haven't had much growth since a few months 00:16:23.704 --> 00:16:25.574 before all this stuff kicked off. 00:16:25.614 --> 00:16:27.204 So you can't blame it for that. 00:16:27.474 --> 00:16:30.084 We haven't had a drop over Black Friday. 00:16:30.334 --> 00:16:36.444 we haven't seen any material, drop in revenue that we can attribute to. 00:16:36.719 --> 00:16:42.129 These recent events, but it is a scary time and it feels like things are 00:16:42.129 --> 00:16:43.849 less certain than they were before. 00:16:44.829 --> 00:16:46.389 Matt: Yeah, that that's for sure. 00:16:46.749 --> 00:16:47.509 it's interesting. 00:16:47.519 --> 00:16:52.724 Like I, I, I talked to some I don't know, normies? 00:16:54.204 --> 00:16:55.254 Is that to tell you? 00:16:55.254 --> 00:16:57.764 People who don't follow WordPress, certainly don't watch my show, but they 00:16:57.764 --> 00:17:01.934 are, they do use WordPress and only a handful of them kind of knew about it 00:17:01.934 --> 00:17:07.094 but largely because they are WP Engine customers so that content is getting 00:17:07.904 --> 00:17:10.584 thrown in their face like because it has to be through emails and I guess 00:17:10.584 --> 00:17:14.614 dashboard notifications and things like that but they still were unclear. 00:17:16.304 --> 00:17:22.694 This scenario too has also like Tried, and I think this is a broader impact across 00:17:22.694 --> 00:17:26.694 the community, and I'm interested in your thoughts on it, is, you know, that, 00:17:26.784 --> 00:17:32.064 that passion, that, you know, that desire to see, like, to see WordPress continue 00:17:32.064 --> 00:17:36.104 to grow, I think that's been like the biggest impact, right, for a lot of us, 00:17:36.144 --> 00:17:42.264 is to be like, whoa, this isn't what we thought it was like emotionally, right? 00:17:42.264 --> 00:17:46.704 Like, do I need this stress, you know, in my life, for this kind of thing? 00:17:46.714 --> 00:17:48.614 Should I be thinking about this? 00:17:48.674 --> 00:17:52.214 and maybe it's just me because I cover it also as, as like a media channel. 00:17:52.474 --> 00:17:58.264 but like, do I need to, have this stress in my life and do I want to continue to, 00:17:58.294 --> 00:18:00.064 you know, fly this flag for WordPress? 00:18:00.074 --> 00:18:01.124 And the answer is still. 00:18:01.439 --> 00:18:04.909 Yes, for me, except for the stress part of it, but, it's also like, yeah, 00:18:04.909 --> 00:18:10.119 man, like this is where year after year taught that this is just a tool. 00:18:10.619 --> 00:18:15.059 And, as innovators and as like leaders of our businesses, we have 00:18:15.069 --> 00:18:19.289 to keep thinking about like how we can pivot, or at least expand. 00:18:19.499 --> 00:18:22.239 so that all the eggs aren't just in the WordPress basket, 00:18:22.259 --> 00:18:25.109 whereas, you know, five years ago, you're probably not saying that. 00:18:25.199 --> 00:18:27.279 And that's like one of the real unfortunate things. 00:18:27.574 --> 00:18:28.794 the fallout of all this stuff. 00:18:28.794 --> 00:18:29.844 Mm. 00:18:29.844 --> 00:18:30.894 Mm 00:18:30.949 --> 00:18:32.449 Katie: that's exactly it. 00:18:32.459 --> 00:18:38.449 So as a business, I've always felt really safely diversified with Barn too. 00:18:38.869 --> 00:18:43.929 Because we have multiple products, we have products across different niches, 00:18:43.949 --> 00:18:46.459 like some WordPress, some WooCommerce. 00:18:46.879 --> 00:18:52.419 We have annual renewal, so that if there was ever a sudden drop in new sales for, 00:18:52.739 --> 00:18:57.409 say, one product, then We would still have the sales from our other products and our 00:18:57.409 --> 00:18:59.119 annual renewals, even on that product. 00:18:59.399 --> 00:19:01.919 So I've always felt really, really safe. 00:19:01.959 --> 00:19:05.889 We also have other income streams like affiliate revenue for our 00:19:05.889 --> 00:19:07.569 blog and that kind of thing. 00:19:07.879 --> 00:19:12.599 so I've never felt that my eggs are all in one basket and WordPress has always 00:19:12.599 --> 00:19:14.919 felt like such a safe horse to back. 00:19:14.939 --> 00:19:17.389 It's been the market leader for so long. 00:19:18.714 --> 00:19:22.684 such a great market share and I've never had any doubts about the 00:19:22.694 --> 00:19:27.884 whole business being dependent on WordPress until the last two months. 00:19:28.264 --> 00:19:31.014 And then I started to think actually. 00:19:31.754 --> 00:19:37.364 It feels like there could be a drop in market share and usage of WordPress, which 00:19:37.404 --> 00:19:39.574 I've never even worried about before. 00:19:39.844 --> 00:19:44.394 And even though I haven't seen it start to happen yet in the numbers, the fact 00:19:44.434 --> 00:19:50.444 that the leader of this community can destabilize people's confidence in it 00:19:50.614 --> 00:19:53.984 so quickly to that extent is very scary. 00:19:54.294 --> 00:19:54.794 And. 00:19:55.244 --> 00:19:58.954 While we wouldn't, like, be bankrupt straight away or anything if there 00:19:58.954 --> 00:20:03.554 was a 25 percent drop in the number of WordPress sites, obviously 00:20:03.554 --> 00:20:05.074 that would have consequences. 00:20:05.114 --> 00:20:10.094 And for the first time, I'm worried that something like that could happen if, 00:20:10.194 --> 00:20:13.524 these dramas continue to have that impact. 00:20:13.524 --> 00:20:19.431 So that is, one of, well, two things that started me to think about Shopify. 00:20:20.091 --> 00:20:25.751 The other is that I've always known that there was a risk that our product's 00:20:25.851 --> 00:20:30.761 functionality could be merged into either WordPress core or WooCommerce 00:20:30.821 --> 00:20:32.841 core, but it's never happened. 00:20:32.941 --> 00:20:37.631 And, and that's, and I knew that that was a very lucky thing and it could happen 00:20:37.631 --> 00:20:42.731 at any time, but WooCommerce has a new policy, which is currently called more in 00:20:42.731 --> 00:20:47.441 core, where they're actively looking to put a lot more functionality into core. 00:20:47.746 --> 00:20:52.716 And in a way, I think that's amazing and good because a stronger WooCommerce 00:20:52.746 --> 00:20:57.336 means bigger market share, more people using it, which means more sales for us. 00:20:57.846 --> 00:21:01.956 But some of our plug in features are in the firing line, some 00:21:01.956 --> 00:21:03.666 of our bigger plug ins as well. 00:21:03.676 --> 00:21:06.176 So that's another worry. 00:21:06.416 --> 00:21:10.106 And while I don't blame WooCommerce for doing these things or planning 00:21:10.106 --> 00:21:12.796 to, I need to safeguard my business. 00:21:12.846 --> 00:21:17.226 And so having products on additional platforms like Shopify. 00:21:17.596 --> 00:21:19.426 feels like a safer strategy. 00:21:20.281 --> 00:21:20.611 Matt: Yeah. 00:21:21.081 --> 00:21:21.861 I, yeah, I want to get it. 00:21:21.921 --> 00:21:25.291 I want to get to the, to the, that WooCommerce more in core. 00:21:25.291 --> 00:21:29.771 It sounds like the biggest corporate speak I have ever, Steve Bomber, 00:21:29.771 --> 00:21:31.931 developers, development developers, more in core, more in core. 00:21:32.281 --> 00:21:36.361 Or do you, does Barn two have any exposure on wordpress.org? 00:21:36.361 --> 00:21:40.491 In other words, if WordPress, if Matt just said, I'm taking this wordpress.org 00:21:40.491 --> 00:21:43.281 thing down, does that, how does that affect Barn two? 00:21:44.411 --> 00:21:48.391 Katie: We do have some free plugins, but that is minor for us. 00:21:48.401 --> 00:21:50.581 It wouldn't cause us major problems. 00:21:50.841 --> 00:21:56.291 So I haven't been as freaked out as some people about on a personal level about 00:21:56.561 --> 00:22:01.061 what happened to ACF, for example, which I realized they have to give back now. 00:22:01.311 --> 00:22:05.391 and also threats like the threat made against paid memberships pro when they 00:22:05.391 --> 00:22:08.746 tried to remove plugin from wordpress. 00:22:08.776 --> 00:22:09.176 org. 00:22:09.766 --> 00:22:14.676 Matt Mull and Wegg basically threatened to take it over without their permission, 00:22:14.686 --> 00:22:18.786 which didn't happen, but I wasn't personally worried because we are 00:22:18.786 --> 00:22:22.986 not dependent on our free plugins in the way that many customers are. 00:22:23.216 --> 00:22:26.446 Like I said earlier, our sales typically come from our content 00:22:26.446 --> 00:22:28.966 strategies and not from wordpress. 00:22:28.986 --> 00:22:29.366 org. 00:22:30.301 --> 00:22:30.601 Matt: Yeah. 00:22:31.141 --> 00:22:34.871 There was a episode of WP Product Talk where Matt showed up, in an interview 00:22:34.871 --> 00:22:39.801 earlier this year, and, I'm still kicking myself and I, and I, Still kicking myself. 00:22:39.801 --> 00:22:42.741 I didn't write this blog post because it was like I was watching that episode and 00:22:43.251 --> 00:22:47.181 there was just something very Different in his tone in his delivery I mean aside 00:22:47.181 --> 00:22:50.491 from the fact he was trying to do it from the woods And he kept having internet, 00:22:50.491 --> 00:22:54.531 you know internet connection, which was was which was just like what's happening 00:22:54.531 --> 00:23:01.481 here but it was at that moment where I recognized a different a change in him 00:23:01.551 --> 00:23:04.396 and I started to like pen an outline. 00:23:04.396 --> 00:23:08.506 I was just like the things that are, that will have to happen at automatic. 00:23:08.516 --> 00:23:12.656 And I was like playing with titles, like, Oh, if I ran automatic, this is what I 00:23:12.656 --> 00:23:15.666 would do, or things I think Matt will be doing with automatic or whatever. 00:23:15.886 --> 00:23:17.656 And one of them was ripping the bandaid off. 00:23:18.236 --> 00:23:21.976 And, that was one of my subtitles and it was. 00:23:23.121 --> 00:23:26.191 Kind of what we're seeing now, but I didn't think it'd be this egregious where 00:23:26.191 --> 00:23:31.481 I think he needs to take automatic and WordPress and be like Here's WordPress 00:23:31.491 --> 00:23:36.961 by automatic right just as like a product as a company to go this long this far 00:23:36.961 --> 00:23:43.731 without any real massive Like, big product shift, like, people don't go to wordpress. 00:23:43.731 --> 00:23:47.331 com for hosting, that's not your first, that's not your first spot 00:23:47.351 --> 00:23:48.511 when you're thinking WordPress. 00:23:48.831 --> 00:23:51.351 you're thinking about other web hosts, and you're not thinking of 00:23:51.351 --> 00:23:55.321 WordPress as like, ooh, this amazing product that people must have. 00:23:55.331 --> 00:23:57.721 You're thinking like, okay, this is a product I have to learn, it's a 00:23:57.721 --> 00:24:01.481 great alternative, it's open source, I gotta kinda learn it and put it 00:24:01.481 --> 00:24:04.901 together and host it over here, and it's a good solution, but I'm not 00:24:04.901 --> 00:24:08.516 like, It's not a desire for me, right? 00:24:08.516 --> 00:24:09.816 It's not this thing I desire. 00:24:10.136 --> 00:24:14.106 And I'm thinking to myself, like, in his shoes, there has to be this shift. 00:24:14.406 --> 00:24:18.196 And I've always said that he's going to put WordPress front and center by 00:24:18.196 --> 00:24:23.956 automatic, powered by Jetpack, powered by com, powered by WP Cloud, and oh, by 00:24:23.956 --> 00:24:27.556 the way, down here in the bottom right hand corner, download WordPress for free. 00:24:27.906 --> 00:24:28.126 Right? 00:24:28.126 --> 00:24:29.906 That's how I kind of like frame it. 00:24:29.936 --> 00:24:32.836 We, I mean, we all know how to get free open source WordPress. 00:24:33.036 --> 00:24:34.756 You can just go to the github and download it or whatever. 00:24:35.066 --> 00:24:38.906 But I think from a packaging positioning thing, he needed 00:24:38.906 --> 00:24:40.546 to make this like drastic move. 00:24:40.566 --> 00:24:44.186 Now, I don't know if this was the motive behind what he did here, but I thought 00:24:44.186 --> 00:24:45.896 there was a rip the bandaid off moment. 00:24:46.266 --> 00:24:48.456 And then, focusing on WooCommerce. 00:24:48.836 --> 00:24:54.046 This gazillion pound gorilla in the room that largely the average 00:24:54.256 --> 00:24:56.566 shop owner, who knows Shopify. 00:24:57.186 --> 00:25:01.396 Has no idea about WooCommerce or how to put it together or what it means 00:25:01.756 --> 00:25:06.586 and that was just like another focus And I made a comment you you you had 00:25:06.586 --> 00:25:11.786 published something on Twitter about the more in core thing and I think I 00:25:11.796 --> 00:25:15.711 just came out like bluntly and said like I don't think WooCommerce is 00:25:15.711 --> 00:25:17.681 gonna care about our customers, right? 00:25:17.681 --> 00:25:22.161 I think WooCommerce cares about, they look at your, like, Barntu's 00:25:22.191 --> 00:25:24.461 customers as their customers. 00:25:25.181 --> 00:25:28.461 Because I think we're in that rip the band aid off moment with Automatic. 00:25:28.681 --> 00:25:32.811 And as many Developer relation people they're gonna throw at us to like smooth 00:25:32.831 --> 00:25:37.971 that over I think the time is up for them to be like, oh, let's all work together 00:25:38.181 --> 00:25:43.001 No matter what they say on like social or in like real puff piece marketing things 00:25:44.051 --> 00:25:48.001 You don't have to get as aggressive on that response as I have but like that's 00:25:48.001 --> 00:25:53.261 the way I see it I just I don't see WooCommerce Slowing down and I think 00:25:53.261 --> 00:25:57.211 they're just gonna come for everyone's customers because I think that's just 00:25:57.211 --> 00:26:00.511 gonna be the, the revenue generator for automatic for the next five years. 00:26:02.581 --> 00:26:07.151 Katie: I think that Matt Mullenweg has shown a more aggressive side of himself 00:26:07.251 --> 00:26:13.001 lately and a disrespect for the community and the people and companies in it. 00:26:13.321 --> 00:26:17.101 And of course, He, ultimately controls WooCommerce. 00:26:17.521 --> 00:26:21.801 However, I haven't seen any evidence that he's particularly involved in 00:26:21.801 --> 00:26:24.131 it at all on a day to day basis. 00:26:24.621 --> 00:26:29.121 And I have seen a lot of evidence of a real desire for collaboration 00:26:29.371 --> 00:26:32.951 from the people who are in charge at WooCommerce at the moment. 00:26:33.481 --> 00:26:38.611 And so People are very suspicious of WooCommerce at the moment 00:26:38.621 --> 00:26:40.991 because it's part of Automattic. 00:26:40.991 --> 00:26:44.301 But actually I am not seeing those worries in the actions of 00:26:44.311 --> 00:26:45.881 the people in charge right now. 00:26:46.121 --> 00:26:46.531 Are you? 00:26:46.671 --> 00:26:51.111 Matt: Yeah, well, I, so there was the inter, I think it was 00:26:51.111 --> 00:26:56.271 Matt's interview with, on, on the TechCrunch Disrupt, stage. 00:26:56.921 --> 00:26:57.731 I think that was the one. 00:26:58.171 --> 00:27:02.921 And, I've always been, you know, having talked to Matt a few times and, on this 00:27:02.921 --> 00:27:07.681 podcast or on the podcast that I've done, I've always learned to, Listen for what he 00:27:07.681 --> 00:27:10.191 doesn't say and what he doesn't mention. 00:27:10.191 --> 00:27:14.231 And there, there was a few throwaway lines about WooCommerce when, when the 00:27:14.231 --> 00:27:19.751 trademark stuff came up about WP Engine and, and the trademark of, of WordPress 00:27:19.751 --> 00:27:21.821 and them sort of, air quotes, abusing it. 00:27:22.731 --> 00:27:26.796 And there was just like this throwaway comment with like, All the nuances 00:27:26.796 --> 00:27:28.796 around, abusing the WordPress trademark. 00:27:28.816 --> 00:27:32.426 And then he kind of like threw away like, and then there's WooCommerce, but that's, 00:27:32.436 --> 00:27:34.526 you know, that's totally our trademark. 00:27:34.656 --> 00:27:39.606 I'm paraphrasing here, but it was sort of like, you, you might be able to mess with 00:27:39.606 --> 00:27:44.036 the nuances of WordPress because it's been in the community for, you know, 20 years 00:27:44.036 --> 00:27:48.296 and it's open source and everyone kind of recognizes that, but we own WooCommerce. 00:27:48.876 --> 00:27:52.846 Ain't nobody touching this WooCommerce thing and I heard him like kind of 00:27:52.846 --> 00:27:55.966 like just full stop on the WooCommerce thing Like you can't even mess 00:27:55.966 --> 00:27:57.026 with this and I thought to myself. 00:27:57.026 --> 00:28:04.566 Yeah, like that is a brand that That's a that's a pure trade pure trademark 00:28:04.566 --> 00:28:09.196 play pure brand play that I don't think anyone can obfuscate who owns that It's 00:28:09.286 --> 00:28:14.756 strictly automatic and I think like when he starts pressing the boot down on that 00:28:15.276 --> 00:28:20.931 both like pushing WooCommerce to make revenue and Like, this is our brand. 00:28:22.011 --> 00:28:23.961 It's just gonna be a whole new world. 00:28:24.101 --> 00:28:25.831 On, on how they, how they operate. 00:28:26.051 --> 00:28:30.661 And, I don't blame them because they need to run like Shopify 00:28:30.671 --> 00:28:32.681 in order to do Shopify things. 00:28:33.811 --> 00:28:36.561 I, I, marketing for one, you know, 00:28:37.071 --> 00:28:37.091 Katie: No. 00:28:38.001 --> 00:28:40.231 Matt: I don't know how he can run. 00:28:41.761 --> 00:28:42.151 Certainly. 00:28:42.151 --> 00:28:45.041 I don't know how he can run WooCommerce commercially. 00:28:45.041 --> 00:28:49.521 I don't know how he's doing WordPress commercially without being as traditional, 00:28:49.681 --> 00:28:52.741 aggressive business owner, full stop. 00:28:53.236 --> 00:28:54.186 Rip the band aid off. 00:28:54.216 --> 00:28:59.026 I don't know how he can do it by smiling and hugging us at WordCamps anymore. 00:28:59.786 --> 00:29:01.036 I simply do not see it. 00:29:01.226 --> 00:29:05.736 And this is the, this is that next chapter we're in, in my opinion. 00:29:07.686 --> 00:29:13.396 Katie: Yeah, I would quite like to see them taking full responsibility for 00:29:13.636 --> 00:29:19.526 WooCommerce as a platform because, as you say, it is lacking that central marketing 00:29:19.536 --> 00:29:21.996 drive that platforms like Shopify have. 00:29:22.386 --> 00:29:27.046 So if they accept they own WooCommerce, they are ultimately responsible. 00:29:27.046 --> 00:29:31.976 And yes, it has an ecosystem of plugins like Barn2 that are building for it. 00:29:32.426 --> 00:29:36.276 If they took that responsibility, I hope they would drive it to grow more, 00:29:36.276 --> 00:29:40.036 which I'm not seeing at the moment and I'm very disappointed that they're not 00:29:40.036 --> 00:29:44.276 doing because they are a profit making company and I think that they should 00:29:44.276 --> 00:29:48.406 be investing more in the marketing rather than expecting all these smaller 00:29:48.406 --> 00:29:50.996 companies to be encouraging people. 00:29:51.366 --> 00:29:55.196 Which of course they should do, but I'd like to see that being done centrally. 00:29:55.606 --> 00:30:00.086 And in terms of what you say about, everybody knows they own WooCommerce, I 00:30:00.116 --> 00:30:06.116 think it's hilarious that they, about the confusion about WP Engine and WordPress 00:30:06.136 --> 00:30:07.906 Engine, and is it the same thing? 00:30:07.906 --> 00:30:12.846 Because WordPress is so confusing, like WordPress. 00:30:12.896 --> 00:30:15.136 org and automatic and WordPress. 00:30:15.166 --> 00:30:16.536 com and who owns what? 00:30:16.556 --> 00:30:18.966 And that's where the confusion is. 00:30:18.996 --> 00:30:21.951 And obviously it's in WooCommerce's favour. 00:30:22.201 --> 00:30:24.561 well, not obviously because it's debatable, but I think 00:30:24.561 --> 00:30:28.371 it's in WooCommerce's favour that there isn't that confusion. 00:30:28.381 --> 00:30:32.851 It is owned by the, I think Automatic is a separate company from WooCommerce, 00:30:33.351 --> 00:30:37.621 but it owns the WooCommerce company and that they can therefore have that. 00:30:37.951 --> 00:30:39.891 WordPress is very woolly, isn't it? 00:30:40.591 --> 00:30:41.721 Matt: Yes, it is. 00:30:42.191 --> 00:30:43.031 playground. 00:30:43.921 --> 00:30:45.291 So we have the WordPress playground. 00:30:45.291 --> 00:30:46.801 We have the WooCommerce playground. 00:30:47.071 --> 00:30:50.901 You're going to introduce going into the Shopify playground. 00:30:50.901 --> 00:30:54.951 I have a lot of friends who say, Oh God, Shopify isn't any better 00:30:55.081 --> 00:30:58.781 when it comes to, you know, playing nice with its competitors. 00:30:58.811 --> 00:31:01.901 A friend of the show, Jordan Gall used to run a site. 00:31:02.266 --> 00:31:07.436 A product called cart hook and he has some very interesting war stories of 00:31:07.436 --> 00:31:11.206 dealing with Shopify and how they kind of pushed him out of their own marketplace 00:31:11.456 --> 00:31:16.326 and had no choice but to sort of give up the reins of his, his software, 00:31:16.326 --> 00:31:17.816 which was doing really, really good. 00:31:18.096 --> 00:31:22.576 and now he's onto a, a new product called Hey Rosie, same concerns. 00:31:22.576 --> 00:31:26.596 How are you looking at Shopify going into this, dealing with the same stuff 00:31:26.596 --> 00:31:29.366 that we're in the face of dealing with what we're dealing with in WordPress? 00:31:31.151 --> 00:31:35.531 Katie: It does have many of the same risks, particularly with regards to 00:31:35.531 --> 00:31:39.491 the possibility that they would put functionality into core, or that we would 00:31:39.501 --> 00:31:43.601 somehow fall foul of their terms and conditions or something like that, because 00:31:43.601 --> 00:31:45.931 we would be selling on a marketplace. 00:31:45.991 --> 00:31:48.261 And actually we don't do that with WordPress. 00:31:48.301 --> 00:31:50.861 We're not dependent much on dot org. 00:31:50.861 --> 00:31:52.831 We're not on the WooCommerce marketplace. 00:31:53.021 --> 00:31:57.131 So we do sell independently at the moment, but I see that as being 00:31:57.131 --> 00:32:00.301 countered by the greater diversification. 00:32:00.376 --> 00:32:03.936 Yes, maybe something will go wrong, but we're aiming to 00:32:03.946 --> 00:32:05.586 build multiple Shopify apps. 00:32:05.596 --> 00:32:09.206 So if something went wrong with one of them, that wouldn't kill the business. 00:32:09.516 --> 00:32:11.326 and also the fact that. 00:32:12.051 --> 00:32:16.751 As an ecosystem, it is actually feeling a bit more secure because 00:32:16.751 --> 00:32:19.131 of all the uncertainty in WordPress. 00:32:19.741 --> 00:32:25.031 So while we're not looking at, reducing our presence in WordPress in any sense 00:32:25.031 --> 00:32:31.301 at all, going into, very well, reputable platform like Shopify that, there's 00:32:31.301 --> 00:32:32.961 a lot of respect for the leadership. 00:32:32.981 --> 00:32:38.121 They seem to have very clear strategy and they are very heavily investing in 00:32:38.151 --> 00:32:43.261 promoting that platform is attractive to me, although I do acknowledge those risks. 00:32:44.186 --> 00:32:49.166 Matt: Yeah, you finally say, okay, I'm, I'm going to tell the team we're going 00:32:49.166 --> 00:32:51.156 to go in the direction of Shopify. 00:32:51.436 --> 00:32:53.786 we're gonna have to start developing for Shopify. 00:32:54.056 --> 00:32:54.936 what is that like? 00:32:54.936 --> 00:32:56.646 How, how does the, what's the team reaction? 00:32:56.646 --> 00:32:58.476 Was it a conscious team decision? 00:32:58.716 --> 00:33:03.546 and how do you start like, I don't know, divvying up the hours or like 00:33:03.546 --> 00:33:07.036 the, the conscious effort to learn how to do it, just like you had to 00:33:07.036 --> 00:33:10.016 learn how to make a plug in, how do you do that for the Shopify world? 00:33:11.741 --> 00:33:13.861 Katie: It was really my decision. 00:33:13.961 --> 00:33:17.621 on my own, I suppose, although I talked to other people about it. 00:33:17.921 --> 00:33:22.861 And, then after doing lots of research and thinking and talking in private to other 00:33:22.861 --> 00:33:27.491 WordPress people, actually, I had a lot of calls with WordPress people that have 00:33:27.511 --> 00:33:32.141 Shopify experience as well, including some quite high profile people with a lot of 00:33:32.141 --> 00:33:34.391 experience, and that was really helpful. 00:33:34.701 --> 00:33:37.481 And they were very positive about the idea or. 00:33:37.696 --> 00:33:39.376 going into Shopify as well. 00:33:39.626 --> 00:33:41.326 So that gave me more confidence. 00:33:41.636 --> 00:33:47.956 So once I was very sure about the idea, I told the team and I worded it in a careful 00:33:47.956 --> 00:33:50.796 way about, Not like this is a disaster. 00:33:50.826 --> 00:33:53.416 We need to escape WordPress or anything like that. 00:33:53.696 --> 00:33:58.026 but given that there is more uncertainty than there was before I have decided 00:33:58.026 --> 00:34:02.616 that the Most secure option for barn 2's future is to start building 00:34:02.616 --> 00:34:06.696 products for Shopify As well as continuing with our WordPress products 00:34:06.976 --> 00:34:11.736 So I tried to word it in a reassuring way and it seems to go really well. 00:34:11.756 --> 00:34:17.896 The team was really positive and excited about it The support team quickly 00:34:17.896 --> 00:34:21.646 started having internal discussions about whether they could support Shopify, 00:34:21.646 --> 00:34:23.076 and they decided that they would. 00:34:23.606 --> 00:34:26.496 And the developers were really positive as well. 00:34:26.716 --> 00:34:30.326 a lot of them were very excited about the idea, technically, 00:34:30.356 --> 00:34:31.436 of building for Shopify. 00:34:32.226 --> 00:34:35.896 Because it would be a new challenge, and they'd heard good things about it. 00:34:36.346 --> 00:34:40.366 And some of them had particular skills, like Laravel and React 00:34:40.396 --> 00:34:43.456 and things like that, that they thought would be really relevant. 00:34:44.156 --> 00:34:48.026 Because I was very unsure at the beginning, should this even be BALM2? 00:34:48.056 --> 00:34:52.606 Or should I just set up a completely different brand, hire Shopify 00:34:52.646 --> 00:34:57.876 experts, and have totally different people developing and supporting it? 00:34:58.326 --> 00:35:01.556 And the more I got into it, the more it did feel like BALM2. 00:35:01.876 --> 00:35:04.656 We have an established software company. 00:35:04.896 --> 00:35:06.176 We have a support team. 00:35:06.176 --> 00:35:10.646 We have a QA person, we have developers with lots of skills. 00:35:11.046 --> 00:35:15.276 And the more I got into it, the more it felt like it's no different 00:35:15.346 --> 00:35:17.176 really to building another plugin. 00:35:17.526 --> 00:35:21.616 my, I consulted with my head of development about the technical. 00:35:22.091 --> 00:35:27.141 Options, because with Shopify, you can basically use any programming language or 00:35:27.181 --> 00:35:30.201 platform and then it connects to Shopify. 00:35:30.521 --> 00:35:34.501 It's, you don't have to use, say Ruby, which Shopify itself is built in. 00:35:34.851 --> 00:35:38.321 so my head of development immediately had a proposal. 00:35:38.321 --> 00:35:41.531 He'd obviously thought about it before and wrote some really 00:35:41.531 --> 00:35:43.101 great technical guidelines. 00:35:44.486 --> 00:35:49.816 The other part of your question was about allocating resources and that was a big 00:35:49.816 --> 00:35:51.956 decision because I have loads of ideas. 00:35:52.281 --> 00:35:54.241 for our existing WordPress plug in. 00:35:54.611 --> 00:35:59.961 So, I tried to think what is likely to have the biggest impact on revenue 00:36:00.361 --> 00:36:05.301 if I add this extra feature to a plug in or if we have a Shopify app. 00:36:05.301 --> 00:36:10.421 So, first of all I thought, okay, I'll put one developer on Shopify. 00:36:10.471 --> 00:36:15.701 We've got About five I think in total and then as things got more uncertain 00:36:15.711 --> 00:36:20.471 with the more in core stuff I started to think well, this is worrying Maybe I 00:36:20.521 --> 00:36:25.121 don't want to add all these features to a product that's likely to go into core 00:36:25.121 --> 00:36:29.831 or something similar So then i've now moved two developers to Shopify starting 00:36:29.831 --> 00:36:34.111 from the new year, which is quite a big proportion of the team So my first, 00:36:34.111 --> 00:36:38.431 Matt: Yeah, the, I, I think it's smart for you to continue with, both 00:36:39.551 --> 00:36:42.131 product catalogs being on Barn2. 00:36:42.581 --> 00:36:46.091 Because, like you said, established brand, you're a software company 00:36:46.091 --> 00:36:50.021 already, and, and, I think there's a particular advantage there because 00:36:50.021 --> 00:36:54.171 there are people, it, it, it kind of helps, you expose Shopify people 00:36:54.171 --> 00:36:55.911 to WooCommerce and vice versa. 00:36:56.121 --> 00:36:59.981 So if a customer ever just says, you know what, it's, I want to go to Shopify now, 00:37:00.141 --> 00:37:01.631 at least you have an offering for them. 00:37:01.861 --> 00:37:02.051 Right? 00:37:02.571 --> 00:37:03.871 You know, and, same thing. 00:37:03.931 --> 00:37:05.581 Customer goes, yeah, I want to leave Shopify. 00:37:05.581 --> 00:37:06.701 I want to go to this WooCommerce thing. 00:37:06.851 --> 00:37:08.291 You have a suite of products there. 00:37:08.371 --> 00:37:11.831 And I think that's just a healthy way to build out your ecosystem. 00:37:12.111 --> 00:37:17.561 So I think what I'm hearing is, is it as easy, with air quotes, for 00:37:17.561 --> 00:37:20.541 you to just take one of your top WooCommerce plugins and just say, 00:37:20.561 --> 00:37:22.271 okay, let's replicate this for Shopify. 00:37:22.461 --> 00:37:24.111 Do you have that first Shopify product? 00:37:24.711 --> 00:37:28.411 idea in mind and if so can you share it or are you still planning it out? 00:37:31.131 --> 00:37:35.481 Katie: my starting point for deciding on App Ideas was our plugins, 00:37:35.781 --> 00:37:39.831 because I know, I understand the market in WooCommerce for that. 00:37:39.851 --> 00:37:43.021 So it felt like a sensible starting point because I wouldn't 00:37:43.021 --> 00:37:44.681 be totally starting from scratch. 00:37:45.301 --> 00:37:48.181 Technically, it's not that much use because we built them as 00:37:48.201 --> 00:37:51.911 plugins, we didn't build them to be used across multiple platforms. 00:37:51.921 --> 00:37:54.841 So it wouldn't save that much development time. 00:37:55.101 --> 00:37:59.881 But from a research perspective, I started there and it was interesting 00:37:59.891 --> 00:38:04.231 because sometimes during the research, I would find these insights through 00:38:04.231 --> 00:38:08.271 my WooCommerce knowledge that I felt that the Shopify market was missing. 00:38:08.611 --> 00:38:13.641 So, for example, I typed for a particular keyword and the things 00:38:13.651 --> 00:38:18.151 that came up weren't what I think people mean by that keyword. 00:38:18.541 --> 00:38:19.701 I thought, Hmm. 00:38:19.856 --> 00:38:20.956 This is interesting. 00:38:21.216 --> 00:38:24.626 Do Shopify people use different terminology or have I 00:38:24.676 --> 00:38:26.916 identified a gap in the market? 00:38:27.476 --> 00:38:33.276 so, We we have decided on two initial ideas which are related but not identical 00:38:33.276 --> 00:38:37.566 to our current plugins Which I haven't announced yet, but it's very recent 00:38:37.596 --> 00:38:39.586 decisions, so i'm not going to say but 00:38:40.061 --> 00:38:40.411 Matt: sure. 00:38:41.396 --> 00:38:43.496 Katie: But that is a useful starting point. 00:38:43.586 --> 00:38:44.946 although there's a lot different. 00:38:45.346 --> 00:38:49.951 I've discovered some things in Shopify that Very different to how the 00:38:50.121 --> 00:38:52.041 WooCommerce extensions approach it. 00:38:52.041 --> 00:38:55.601 And, actually yesterday I planned a new feature for one of my WooCommerce 00:38:55.651 --> 00:39:00.131 plugins that I'd seen all the Shopify apps in that space have. 00:39:00.411 --> 00:39:04.101 And I don't think any WooCommerce ones on the market have that feature. 00:39:04.111 --> 00:39:07.481 So I thought, Oh, that's a good opportunity to improve 00:39:07.501 --> 00:39:08.901 our WooCommerce business. 00:39:09.301 --> 00:39:11.651 So, hopefully everything will benefit. 00:39:11.781 --> 00:39:11.931 I 00:39:12.941 --> 00:39:17.361 Matt: How, I, I think I have an idea because I, I once again saw one of your 00:39:17.371 --> 00:39:22.596 tweets, how are you starting to learn more about Shopify, the community, I 00:39:22.616 --> 00:39:26.626 think one of the advantages companies have in the WordPress space, I like 00:39:26.626 --> 00:39:30.096 to think so anyway, is that there are a lot of us making WordPress content 00:39:30.096 --> 00:39:34.466 and media, your podcast, your YouTube channel, my stuff, countless of our 00:39:34.506 --> 00:39:36.176 friends and colleagues that make content. 00:39:36.356 --> 00:39:37.036 I think it's easy. 00:39:37.066 --> 00:39:38.506 And we've seen this with Omni send, right? 00:39:38.696 --> 00:39:41.086 I think it was easy for Omni send to come into the WordPress space 00:39:41.096 --> 00:39:45.276 from their Shopify experience and, and look at us and go. 00:39:45.796 --> 00:39:50.666 Okay, there's like 12 content creators, a podcast, YouTube channels 00:39:50.666 --> 00:39:53.806 that we can sponsor and learn from, and we just, we just need 00:39:53.806 --> 00:39:55.506 to dive into, you know, this set. 00:39:56.256 --> 00:39:58.186 Is, does that exist in the Shopify world? 00:39:58.186 --> 00:40:01.616 Is that how you're learning, how you're trying to get exposure and start to build 00:40:01.616 --> 00:40:04.556 up the, the Barn2 brand in that space? 00:40:04.556 --> 00:40:08.116 Or is it slightly different or maybe a little bit more, complicated? 00:40:10.591 --> 00:40:15.221 Katie: think a lot of people in WordPress seem to have prejudice against Shopify as 00:40:15.221 --> 00:40:18.241 an ecosystem because it's not open source. 00:40:18.581 --> 00:40:22.181 And I've met people at WordCamps that have said things about how it's 00:40:22.191 --> 00:40:26.291 not as friendly and people don't support each other, but actually so 00:40:26.451 --> 00:40:28.581 far that hasn't been my experience. 00:40:29.071 --> 00:40:33.981 I, for example, I've watched lots of YouTube videos from previous Shopify 00:40:34.031 --> 00:40:38.551 conferences, which are just like WordCamps from what I can see, with product 00:40:38.551 --> 00:40:42.861 people standing on stage and sharing how they made their app so successful. 00:40:43.241 --> 00:40:46.971 And there are newsletters that I've found, actually one of my 00:40:46.971 --> 00:40:51.716 team members found, about how to build a successful Shopify app. 00:40:52.706 --> 00:40:56.596 There's lots of advice about that on the Shopify app store, for obvious reasons. 00:40:56.626 --> 00:40:58.656 They want people to build successful apps. 00:40:59.196 --> 00:41:02.966 And, but when I've been tweeting, it's also been interesting because 00:41:02.996 --> 00:41:08.256 Shopify people have started to follow me and have reached out several, 00:41:08.366 --> 00:41:10.341 maybe two or three, offering advice. 00:41:10.641 --> 00:41:14.851 And actually straight after this interview, I've got a call with a Shopify 00:41:14.921 --> 00:41:20.691 app seller just to give me advice and share his experiences and people that I 00:41:20.751 --> 00:41:25.421 don't know and I'm not in that space yet are being really friendly and reaching out 00:41:25.931 --> 00:41:30.441 to help me as well as the WordPress people that know Shopify that are doing the same. 00:41:30.441 --> 00:41:35.221 So I found, although it's kind of scary, like learning a whole new platform 00:41:35.221 --> 00:41:39.581 when I just know how WooCommerce works and how customers think. 00:41:39.891 --> 00:41:42.711 I am finding that the resources are available. 00:41:43.881 --> 00:41:47.251 Matt: Yeah, well, I'll definitely set you up with, with Jordan if you don't, 00:41:47.291 --> 00:41:50.681 if you're not already friendly with him, you might not get the, the glowing 00:41:50.681 --> 00:41:54.721 review of Shopify, but you'll certainly get, you know, a real honest take and, 00:41:54.721 --> 00:41:57.461 it obviously been a few years since he's been in the Shopify world, but he can 00:41:57.461 --> 00:41:59.521 definitely tell you, maybe what to avoid. 00:41:59.751 --> 00:42:00.761 Katie Keith, barn2. 00:42:01.691 --> 00:42:05.481 com, WP product talk show, check them out on YouTube as well, 00:42:05.481 --> 00:42:07.081 search for Barn2 on YouTube. 00:42:07.121 --> 00:42:09.301 Katie Keith, where else can folks go to say thanks? 00:42:11.031 --> 00:42:14.101 Katie: Yeah, well, the main place to connect with me individually, as 00:42:14.101 --> 00:42:17.311 you've probably gathered from this interview, would be my Twitter, 00:42:17.351 --> 00:42:19.011 which is Katie Keith Bantu. 00:42:20.231 --> 00:42:23.231 Matt: Awesome stuff everybody else the WP minute comm the WP minute comm 00:42:23.431 --> 00:42:26.891 slash subscribe It's the number one way to stay connected and we'll see you 00:42:27.351 --> 00:42:31.691 I think in the new year at this point if I did all my scheduling correctly. 00:42:31.991 --> 00:42:34.541 All right, everybody I'll see you in the next episode