WEBVTT 00:00:00.225 --> 00:00:04.726 Matt Abrahams: Humor and levity lead to deeper connection and communication. 00:00:05.106 --> 00:00:08.586 My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach Strategic Communication at 00:00:08.586 --> 00:00:10.355 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:10.606 --> 00:00:13.985 Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:18.766 --> 00:00:21.595 Today I am really looking forward to chatting with Chris Duffy. 00:00:22.256 --> 00:00:26.105 Chris is an award-winning comedian, television writer, and the host of TED's 00:00:26.125 --> 00:00:29.156 popular How to Be a Better Human podcast. 00:00:29.156 --> 00:00:32.195 A former fifth grade teacher who went on to write for HBO's 00:00:32.205 --> 00:00:34.836 Wyatt Cenac's Problem Areas. 00:00:35.055 --> 00:00:37.926 Chris consistently explores the intersection of humor, 00:00:38.315 --> 00:00:39.846 connection, and empathy. 00:00:40.756 --> 00:00:44.396 His latest book is Humor Me: How Laughing More Can Make You Present, 00:00:44.575 --> 00:00:46.736 Creative, Connected, and Happy. 00:00:47.455 --> 00:00:49.725 Chris, I am super excited for our conversation. 00:00:49.735 --> 00:00:52.626 I really enjoyed getting to know you when you had me on your show, 00:00:52.775 --> 00:00:55.025 and I'm thrilled to have you here on Think Fast, Talk Smart. 00:00:55.126 --> 00:00:55.786 Chris Duffy: Thank you so much. 00:00:55.786 --> 00:00:57.985 Yeah, it was such a pleasure talking to you, and I'm thrilled 00:00:57.985 --> 00:00:59.425 to be here in, in your home now. 00:00:59.556 --> 00:01:00.945 Matt Abrahams: Well, thank you very much. 00:01:00.975 --> 00:01:01.935 Uh, shall we get started? 00:01:02.295 --> 00:01:03.015 Chris Duffy: Yes, let's do it. 00:01:03.085 --> 00:01:03.325 Matt Abrahams: Okay. 00:01:03.695 --> 00:01:05.935 So, uh, you have a fascinating backstory. 00:01:05.975 --> 00:01:10.256 Uh, you transitioned from teaching, uh, in a classroom, 10-year-olds, fifth 00:01:10.256 --> 00:01:14.115 grade, I believe, to, uh, performing stand-up comedy, and now you host, uh, 00:01:14.115 --> 00:01:16.935 your own, uh, show on the TED network. 00:01:17.215 --> 00:01:21.106 Uh, how did managing a fifth grade classroom prepare you for any of this? 00:01:21.145 --> 00:01:23.915 Chris Duffy: You know, so much of teaching, we think of teaching 00:01:23.916 --> 00:01:27.355 as inspiration and these big, you know, connection moments. 00:01:27.545 --> 00:01:30.845 And that's not to put that down, but a lot of teaching, any teacher will 00:01:30.846 --> 00:01:36.425 tell you, is clear communication, um, clear expectations, and having a vision 00:01:36.435 --> 00:01:38.165 of what you want the class to do. 00:01:38.275 --> 00:01:39.885 So, like, for the small stuff, too, right? 00:01:39.885 --> 00:01:41.545 Like, how do I get tissues in the classroom? 00:01:41.545 --> 00:01:43.465 There has to be a procedure for that, otherwise the kids 00:01:43.465 --> 00:01:44.495 make up their own procedure. 00:01:44.715 --> 00:01:46.295 That is not how you want it to go. 00:01:46.525 --> 00:01:50.906 So, so much of that, like, precision and vision I think has really, um, carried 00:01:50.906 --> 00:01:52.115 through to all the other things I've done. 00:01:52.376 --> 00:01:53.025 Matt Abrahams: I totally agree. 00:01:53.025 --> 00:01:54.585 It's about expectation setting. 00:01:54.615 --> 00:01:58.416 It's, it's setting up procedures and ground rules, but leaving for 00:01:58.416 --> 00:02:01.006 flexibility in, in some of that. 00:02:01.385 --> 00:02:04.676 And I'll tell you, some of the best lessons I learned when I was managing 00:02:04.676 --> 00:02:06.696 people came from managing a classroom. 00:02:06.696 --> 00:02:08.216 There's just a lot you have to deal with. 00:02:09.376 --> 00:02:14.445 Chris, it strikes me that really good teachers spend time lesson planning 00:02:14.445 --> 00:02:17.686 and thinking through how they want to take their students from where they 00:02:17.686 --> 00:02:22.386 are to where they need to be for the learning objective, and a, a comedian, 00:02:22.395 --> 00:02:24.035 in many ways, does the same thing. 00:02:24.045 --> 00:02:26.345 You have to, where you're starting with your audience, 00:02:26.345 --> 00:02:27.035 where you want to take them. 00:02:27.036 --> 00:02:28.635 Now, the outcome is different. 00:02:28.635 --> 00:02:29.286 It's not learning. 00:02:29.286 --> 00:02:29.765 It's humor. 00:02:29.766 --> 00:02:30.555 It's enjoyment. 00:02:30.905 --> 00:02:34.205 Uh, but I'm curious, can you walk us through that process that you have of 00:02:34.206 --> 00:02:37.686 how do we get people from where they are to where you need them to be? 00:02:38.126 --> 00:02:40.866 Chris Duffy: Yeah, it's, it's an, it's really interesting to think about because 00:02:40.876 --> 00:02:45.965 I would say it's actually not just in my teaching and in my comedy, but in 00:02:46.275 --> 00:02:51.064 pretty much all communication, at least anything that I'm, um, planning ahead 00:02:51.064 --> 00:02:55.944 of time and, and gonna do in any sort of performative way, I, I use the same trick. 00:02:55.964 --> 00:02:58.263 Which is I, I think about like a magician. 00:02:58.593 --> 00:03:02.023 They do a ton of work to make the work that they're doing invisible. 00:03:02.634 --> 00:03:07.923 And for me, as a comedian, the work that you do is to make it seem like you are 00:03:07.923 --> 00:03:10.004 saying something for the very first time. 00:03:11.103 --> 00:03:13.083 But actually you've said it 100 times before. 00:03:13.084 --> 00:03:15.593 And the reason you've done that is you're getting to the way that gets 00:03:15.723 --> 00:03:19.124 the audience to understand what you're saying and to take a journey 00:03:19.124 --> 00:03:20.553 with you as quickly as possible. 00:03:20.573 --> 00:03:23.873 And that was the exact same thing that I was trying to do in the classroom 00:03:23.873 --> 00:03:27.604 is, how do I in, in the shortest amount of time get the students to 00:03:27.673 --> 00:03:32.754 understand what is happening, and then get them to take this journey with me? 00:03:32.853 --> 00:03:36.073 This was my favorite lesson to teach every year, and it was a lesson about, 00:03:36.164 --> 00:03:37.683 um, the Declaration of Independence. 00:03:38.024 --> 00:03:43.483 So the way that I did this was we were coming back from lunch, and 00:03:43.524 --> 00:03:45.834 I would gather the students on the rug and I would say, "I have 00:03:45.834 --> 00:03:46.993 something really serious to tell you. 00:03:48.142 --> 00:03:51.252 It is very important to me that you're paying attention in class and 00:03:51.252 --> 00:03:52.612 also that you are being appropriate. 00:03:52.912 --> 00:03:57.232 And during lunch I found a note on the floor. 00:03:58.142 --> 00:04:00.372 And it is so inappropriate to pass notes. 00:04:00.382 --> 00:04:02.761 It's especially inappropriate to pass notes that are inappropriate. 00:04:02.772 --> 00:04:04.182 I'm gonna read you that note right now. 00:04:04.341 --> 00:04:08.192 And I would read the note and it said, you know, "You and I used to 00:04:08.192 --> 00:04:12.262 have a good relationship, but you're taking advantage of me, and I feel 00:04:12.262 --> 00:04:15.171 like you don't even listen to me, and I don't have a say at all. So I 00:04:15.171 --> 00:04:18.431 need, I think we need to break up. Sincerely, The United States of America." 00:04:18.481 --> 00:04:21.472 And then I'd say, "The Declaration of Independence, history's most 00:04:21.472 --> 00:04:24.581 famous breakup note." And the kids would go, "Ah, you got us. 00:04:24.581 --> 00:04:27.072 You tricked us." But they would remember that for, like, the rest of 00:04:27.072 --> 00:04:29.611 the year, and they would be excited for the next year to learn that. 00:04:29.631 --> 00:04:32.782 And the reason is because it did not seem like that's what I was doing at all. 00:04:33.221 --> 00:04:36.531 And that's the same thing that you try and do in, in a comedy routine. 00:04:36.531 --> 00:04:39.161 That's the same thing that you try and do when you're, you know, talking 00:04:39.162 --> 00:04:42.231 to anyone is to give them some moment of delight, but to understand that 00:04:42.232 --> 00:04:46.561 this, like, you've hooked them in a way where they don't necessarily 00:04:46.561 --> 00:04:47.621 see what you're doing beforehand. 00:04:48.052 --> 00:04:50.621 Matt Abrahams: I love that, that analogy of the Declaration of 00:04:50.622 --> 00:04:51.992 Independence as a breakup note. 00:04:52.612 --> 00:04:57.312 But what you really did there, I think, is you built curiosity and, and suspense, 00:04:57.822 --> 00:05:03.191 and a lot of effective, engaging communication plays on those two things. 00:05:03.212 --> 00:05:05.962 Chris Duffy: Well, one of the things in comedy actually is, like, um, when 00:05:05.962 --> 00:05:09.051 you're first starting out in comedy, one of the big things that everyone 00:05:09.051 --> 00:05:12.161 learns is that if the audience isn't laughing at something you think is 00:05:12.161 --> 00:05:15.991 funny, it's often because they either don't have enough context or because you 00:05:15.991 --> 00:05:18.741 haven't layered enough elements on top. 00:05:18.741 --> 00:05:21.602 So the elements have to be, like, your factual statement, but it's often, 00:05:21.602 --> 00:05:23.781 like, factual statement plus emotion. 00:05:24.511 --> 00:05:29.521 So, like, the alarm clock went off and I was so excited. 00:05:29.731 --> 00:05:32.611 The alarm clock went off and I was so scared, right? 00:05:32.612 --> 00:05:36.111 Like, whatever the fact plus emotion is, you get the audience into a 00:05:36.112 --> 00:05:39.541 place really quickly where then you can deliver the punchline. 00:05:39.572 --> 00:05:43.851 And I think so often in all communication we forget that, like, people aren't 00:05:43.851 --> 00:05:47.251 inside of our heads, so you have to give them that emotional information 00:05:47.252 --> 00:05:48.581 as well as the factual information. 00:05:49.221 --> 00:05:50.051 Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. 00:05:50.081 --> 00:05:54.251 And, and many of us, especially if you're working in a tech job or 00:05:54.252 --> 00:05:57.351 in a finance position, you don't think about that emotion, but it 00:05:57.351 --> 00:05:58.561 really does make a difference. 00:05:59.142 --> 00:06:00.881 I want to drill down on something you said. 00:06:00.891 --> 00:06:04.841 You, as a comedian and a teacher who's taught lessons over and over 00:06:04.841 --> 00:06:07.582 again, you want to make it sound like it's the very first time. 00:06:07.781 --> 00:06:09.072 How do you do that? 00:06:09.072 --> 00:06:14.222 What do you do to, to help make that sound like this is an authentic 00:06:14.222 --> 00:06:17.631 moment that we are having together here, even though I've said these 00:06:17.631 --> 00:06:19.301 same things over and over again? 00:06:19.800 --> 00:06:20.660 Chris Duffy: I'll give you two answers. 00:06:20.660 --> 00:06:23.960 One of which is like just to say that you actually make it 00:06:24.150 --> 00:06:26.740 genuinely exciting and new for you. 00:06:26.750 --> 00:06:30.989 So you find a way for it to not be rote and routine and a script for yourself. 00:06:31.360 --> 00:06:33.499 For me, if I'm trying to tell a joke, I try and figure out, like, 00:06:33.509 --> 00:06:35.669 how can I actually make myself laugh? 00:06:35.849 --> 00:06:40.840 Not fake laugh, but like how can I genuinely find the funny part to me of 00:06:40.840 --> 00:06:42.650 this story that I've told 100 times? 00:06:42.729 --> 00:06:46.510 The other part though is, um, and this is the part that's like a little 00:06:46.510 --> 00:06:50.449 more, um, calculating I guess, is if you want to make it seem like you've 00:06:50.460 --> 00:06:53.170 never said something before, you don't just think about the words. 00:06:53.360 --> 00:06:55.250 You think about how you're delivering them. 00:06:55.790 --> 00:06:58.659 You think about the way that your face and your body are. 00:06:58.979 --> 00:07:01.210 And so taking a pause for example, right? 00:07:01.210 --> 00:07:05.729 Like if you pause and look up, if you go, "Huh, I see something outside of 00:07:05.729 --> 00:07:08.979 this window." Immediately people think well, that's in the moment, right? 00:07:08.979 --> 00:07:10.059 He paused and he looked up. 00:07:10.110 --> 00:07:12.539 He's actually connecting it to some sort of physical reality 00:07:12.540 --> 00:07:15.230 rather than just saying, "I see outside this window a tree." Right? 00:07:15.230 --> 00:07:18.710 Like if you go, "Have you ever noticed that tree? That one right 00:07:18.710 --> 00:07:22.389 there." And, and the other thing is to, um, root it in the other person. 00:07:22.649 --> 00:07:28.358 So I think if you're trying to get them to do something, like, listen, look 00:07:28.358 --> 00:07:30.198 out the window, take a deep breath. 00:07:31.168 --> 00:07:34.157 Making sure that they are actually doing that thing and creating the space 00:07:34.157 --> 00:07:37.957 for it, that will make it, again, feel like it is real and in the moment, um, 00:07:37.957 --> 00:07:42.147 because you actually can't plan for how long or exactly how they do that thing. 00:07:42.147 --> 00:07:43.848 So those are some of the little tricks that I use. 00:07:44.758 --> 00:07:45.627 Matt Abrahams: Uh, I love those. 00:07:45.647 --> 00:07:48.387 The one you just discussed is really about bringing an experience. 00:07:48.388 --> 00:07:51.947 It could be your experience of what it is or helping them have that experience. 00:07:52.228 --> 00:07:53.907 I like to leverage questions. 00:07:53.907 --> 00:07:56.798 I, I'll ask questions and, and I don't always know how they'll 00:07:56.798 --> 00:08:00.058 respond, but the questions take me in the direction that I need. 00:08:00.058 --> 00:08:03.837 So there's some novelty, but it's baked into the predictability 00:08:03.837 --> 00:08:04.917 of where I need to go. 00:08:05.388 --> 00:08:10.328 And finding the emotional connection you have to the moment, as you shared 00:08:10.328 --> 00:08:13.587 with the, the joke you like to tell, uh, that can be really powerful. 00:08:13.587 --> 00:08:15.377 It doesn't have to be just something that makes you laugh. 00:08:15.377 --> 00:08:17.817 It's just that emotional connection, and I appreciate that. 00:08:19.447 --> 00:08:22.608 We'll be right back to finish our conversation, but first, a quick 00:08:22.608 --> 00:08:24.128 word from one of our sponsors. 00:08:24.167 --> 00:08:27.327 Their support allows us to bring you this show free of charge. 00:08:27.867 --> 00:08:30.377 One of my favorite things about this show is hearing from 00:08:30.377 --> 00:08:31.848 listeners all over the world. 00:08:32.218 --> 00:08:36.047 Communication connects us, and the more people you can communicate 00:08:36.047 --> 00:08:38.388 with, the bigger your world becomes. 00:08:38.457 --> 00:08:42.557 So many of you are collaborating internationally, working across cultures, 00:08:42.687 --> 00:08:45.808 or simply trying to connect more deeply with people around the world. 00:08:45.887 --> 00:08:49.827 That's one reason I've been thinking more and more about language learning. 00:08:49.887 --> 00:08:54.147 Babbel focuses on helping you have real conversations with real people, 00:08:54.337 --> 00:08:56.207 not just memorized vocabulary. 00:08:56.527 --> 00:09:00.127 Their lessons are designed by more than 200 language experts and built 00:09:00.127 --> 00:09:04.887 around practical communication skills you can actually use in everyday life. 00:09:05.377 --> 00:09:08.038 And because the lessons are short and approachable, it's easy to 00:09:08.038 --> 00:09:10.008 fit them in a busy schedule. 00:09:10.417 --> 00:09:13.657 Just 10 minutes a day can help you make meaningful progress. 00:09:14.047 --> 00:09:16.677 If you've ever thought about learning a new language, this is 00:09:16.678 --> 00:09:18.807 the perfect opportunity to start. 00:09:19.187 --> 00:09:27.047 Right now, Babbel is offering up to 60% off your subscription at babbel.com/tfts. 00:09:27.367 --> 00:09:29.277 And now, back to our conversation. 00:09:29.487 --> 00:09:34.057 Stepping on a stage, be it a comedy club, which to me would be really 00:09:34.147 --> 00:09:39.047 challenging or, or even a boardroom or, or, or just some office meeting setting, 00:09:39.457 --> 00:09:41.358 for many people can be terrifying. 00:09:41.707 --> 00:09:46.558 Do you have any mindset shifts or routines you use to help yourself 00:09:46.687 --> 00:09:49.748 feel more comfortable and calm in those high-stakes moments? 00:09:50.158 --> 00:09:53.428 Chris Duffy: It's not like I always am able to conquer my, my social anxiety. 00:09:53.438 --> 00:09:57.548 But in the settings where I can, right, like in performance and, um, 00:09:57.578 --> 00:10:02.827 in moderation or in an interview or, or those kinds of things, one is I can 00:10:02.858 --> 00:10:04.508 conquer it because I've done it a bunch. 00:10:04.558 --> 00:10:08.937 And so I, I have given myself that kind of exposure therapy of knowing that, 00:10:08.937 --> 00:10:12.327 like, if you get up on stage and you try and make people laugh and they don't 00:10:12.338 --> 00:10:14.278 laugh, you're still alive the next day. 00:10:14.508 --> 00:10:15.128 And you know what? 00:10:15.148 --> 00:10:18.227 It doesn't ruin your life, and most of those people don't even remember 00:10:18.228 --> 00:10:21.477 who you were 14 minutes after they leave the room, much less two days. 00:10:21.857 --> 00:10:23.617 Um, so one is exposing myself to it. 00:10:24.027 --> 00:10:27.867 The other is I try and rather than, like, talk myself into feeling a certain 00:10:27.867 --> 00:10:31.388 way, I try and get my body first. 00:10:31.438 --> 00:10:33.047 So, like, I try and get my body excited. 00:10:33.047 --> 00:10:35.697 So I will, like, literally, like, jump up and down, kind of 00:10:35.697 --> 00:10:37.227 like skip before I go on stage. 00:10:37.268 --> 00:10:40.888 And then I will, like, literally bounce up and down and say, like, uh, I think I 00:10:40.888 --> 00:10:43.337 saw this in a, a movie about Muhammad Ali. 00:10:43.367 --> 00:10:45.778 But I go, like, "From the root to the fruit, from the root to the fruit. 00:10:46.027 --> 00:10:49.247 Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee." But, like, it transforms that 00:10:49.267 --> 00:10:51.228 nervousness into excitement for me. 00:10:51.257 --> 00:10:54.697 My body then, like, metabolizes that as excitement, and when I go out, I have 00:10:54.698 --> 00:10:58.457 this burst of energy rather than, like, a, a freezing and, and tightening up. 00:10:58.457 --> 00:11:00.578 So I find the physical part really, really helps 00:11:01.646 --> 00:11:04.075 Matt Abrahams: You're not the first person to share a physical routine. 00:11:04.075 --> 00:11:06.766 I, I think not only does it take that energy and do something 00:11:06.766 --> 00:11:10.685 purposeful with it, but it also gets you very present oriented. 00:11:10.925 --> 00:11:14.616 You're, you're, you're feeling and, and, and that's where all effective 00:11:14.616 --> 00:11:16.705 communication comes from, uh, to my mind. 00:11:16.985 --> 00:11:22.325 Hey, I would, I'd like you to explain the difference between jamming versus joking. 00:11:22.455 --> 00:11:24.615 Can you explain what this means and how it's best to 00:11:24.615 --> 00:11:26.915 lean into one versus the other? 00:11:26.945 --> 00:11:31.985 Because the ability to use humor is a great way to lighten 00:11:32.035 --> 00:11:35.925 the, the mood, to connect with people, to diffuse situations. 00:11:36.325 --> 00:11:37.956 Talk to us about jamming and joking. 00:11:38.376 --> 00:11:38.536 Chris Duffy: Yeah. 00:11:38.536 --> 00:11:43.255 So this is, um, this comes from Adam Mastroianni, who is a, um, an academic and 00:11:43.256 --> 00:11:45.126 a writer who I, I just absolutely love. 00:11:45.126 --> 00:11:48.106 Um, he has a fantastic newsletter called Experimental History, I think is what 00:11:48.106 --> 00:11:49.585 it's called, or Experimental Psychology. 00:11:49.846 --> 00:11:51.006 Um, but he's fantastic. 00:11:51.045 --> 00:11:57.365 And, um, he has done academic research on why conversations end and whether people 00:11:57.376 --> 00:12:01.075 want them to end when they end or whether they have ended prematurely or too late. 00:12:01.245 --> 00:12:03.615 So I just think that's like a fascinating research field. 00:12:03.646 --> 00:12:07.185 And then he came up with this idea of jamming versus joking, 00:12:07.186 --> 00:12:09.415 which so, um, resonates with me. 00:12:09.425 --> 00:12:13.245 And the idea is that sometimes we are playing with each other in a way 00:12:13.245 --> 00:12:17.146 that builds and lets the other person have space and feel like they're in 00:12:17.146 --> 00:12:19.175 it with us and we are going together. 00:12:19.175 --> 00:12:20.185 And that's jamming, right? 00:12:20.186 --> 00:12:22.916 It's like when you're playing instruments together and one person 00:12:23.186 --> 00:12:26.035 plays the guitar and then there's space for the bass to come in, and 00:12:26.035 --> 00:12:27.185 now there's space for the drums. 00:12:27.186 --> 00:12:29.536 And we're actually all making something incredible together. 00:12:29.866 --> 00:12:34.185 And joking is his, um, his other side, which is joking is when you 00:12:34.186 --> 00:12:37.206 are kind of making it all about you and you are so invested in the joke 00:12:39.405 --> 00:12:42.055 part of it that you actually are stopping them from being 00:12:42.065 --> 00:12:43.605 able to participate as well. 00:12:43.785 --> 00:12:46.155 Um, so his example is like if you're a pun guy. 00:12:46.225 --> 00:12:50.175 If someone says, "Hey, it's pretty cold outside," and you immediately 00:12:50.175 --> 00:12:54.455 respond with like, uh, "Colder than, uh, colder than Antarctica. 00:12:54.455 --> 00:12:57.715 And speaking of Antarctica, ark, uh, Noah's Ark." You know, you're like, "What? 00:12:57.785 --> 00:12:59.825 What are you talking about?" That's just like not something 00:12:59.826 --> 00:13:00.786 that people can respond to. 00:13:00.786 --> 00:13:04.025 It's just like kind of nonsense wordplay and not even a good 00:13:04.025 --> 00:13:05.255 example of nonsense wordplay. 00:13:05.936 --> 00:13:10.156 Um, whereas if you are taking what someone else is saying and you're joking around 00:13:10.156 --> 00:13:12.005 with them and you're getting them into it. 00:13:12.015 --> 00:13:15.316 So you know, they go, "It's so cold outside." And you go, "Oh my 00:13:15.316 --> 00:13:18.696 gosh, remember the time that you told me about where it was so cold 00:13:18.696 --> 00:13:19.905 and you had forgotten your coat? 00:13:19.925 --> 00:13:20.546 What did you do?" 00:13:20.586 --> 00:13:23.615 And then they say, and we go, "Oh, what if we both had to make a, 00:13:23.666 --> 00:13:25.036 make a coat out of garbage bags? 00:13:25.075 --> 00:13:27.465 That would be hilarious if we were doing this." Then you, you're building 00:13:27.465 --> 00:13:30.536 something together where there's space and you're creating this world together 00:13:31.166 --> 00:13:36.324 and I think that that is something that for me professionally and on stage, 00:13:36.624 --> 00:13:39.794 it's the difference between like a great comedy show and a terrible comedy show. 00:13:39.964 --> 00:13:43.574 I have found this to be a really transformative idea when I think 00:13:43.584 --> 00:13:47.604 about humor in particular, is to think about like, what is the humor that is 00:13:47.604 --> 00:13:51.274 not making it about you, but that is gonna make everyone have a good time? 00:13:51.293 --> 00:13:53.694 What is it that's gonna make the other person look good? 00:13:53.703 --> 00:13:56.633 Because I think this is the biggest misconception that people have about 00:13:56.633 --> 00:14:01.293 humor, is that the successful humor is you being at the center and you being in the 00:14:01.293 --> 00:14:03.084 spotlight, and I actually totally disagree 00:14:04.342 --> 00:14:06.352 Matt Abrahams: I think it's true for all communication, which is 00:14:06.352 --> 00:14:10.802 how do we get everybody engaged and involved so that they feel part of it? 00:14:10.802 --> 00:14:12.922 You're collaborating and co-creating something. 00:14:13.382 --> 00:14:16.532 Chris Duffy: I mean, sometimes people talk about, you know, being interested 00:14:16.542 --> 00:14:19.771 versus interesting, and I think this is an offshoot of that, right? 00:14:19.771 --> 00:14:24.252 How do you, um, not try and make it so the other person goes, "Wow, Chris 00:14:24.261 --> 00:14:28.871 is a fascinating man," but instead go, "Wow, we had a conversation and 00:14:29.171 --> 00:14:33.381 I actually didn't know that I had those thoughts or opinions, but it 00:14:33.381 --> 00:14:35.951 was really cool to, to discover them in, in a conversation together." 00:14:36.151 --> 00:14:38.781 Matt Abrahams: Yeah, together we learn something, and I think that's really cool. 00:14:39.052 --> 00:14:41.101 So Chris, I really enjoyed your book. 00:14:41.151 --> 00:14:44.662 Not only is it very informative about humor in general, but 00:14:44.662 --> 00:14:45.882 how we can be more funny. 00:14:45.951 --> 00:14:48.121 It in and of itself is quite funny. 00:14:48.122 --> 00:14:51.242 I enjoyed laughing as I was learning, so thank you for that. 00:14:51.791 --> 00:14:54.871 Uh, you share in it several unwritten rules of comedy. 00:14:55.252 --> 00:14:58.121 Uh, you talk about elevators, not rocket ships. 00:14:58.341 --> 00:15:02.421 Can you just give us some insight and advice for those of us who would love 00:15:02.451 --> 00:15:06.482 to leverage humor in our communication and our relationships who aren't 00:15:06.701 --> 00:15:08.701 stand-up comedians or improv experts? 00:15:08.891 --> 00:15:11.181 What are a few things we can do to be funnier? 00:15:11.452 --> 00:15:14.162 Chris Duffy: My number one piece of advice to people when they say like, "I don't 00:15:14.162 --> 00:15:18.571 think of myself as a funny person, but I want to be funnier," is to shift how you 00:15:18.581 --> 00:15:22.081 think about that and to not necessarily think like it's me telling more jokes. 00:15:22.132 --> 00:15:25.682 But, um, I would say try to laugh more in your life. 00:15:25.861 --> 00:15:30.291 So like find people who make you laugh, be around them, um, enjoy 00:15:30.372 --> 00:15:32.831 comedy, movies or TV shows or clips. 00:15:32.831 --> 00:15:34.432 Like, look at the absurdity in the world. 00:15:34.432 --> 00:15:37.761 So like if you can laugh more, I think that will naturally bring 00:15:37.881 --> 00:15:41.041 funniness into your life, and then you can share the things that you 00:15:41.041 --> 00:15:42.301 thought were funny with other people. 00:15:42.351 --> 00:15:45.381 But then when you are trying to like actually create the humor on your own, 00:15:45.391 --> 00:15:49.341 not to just appreciate the humor that you found or that you're hearing, there's 00:15:49.341 --> 00:15:53.722 a couple of really, um, basic ways in which like math plays into comedy. 00:15:53.722 --> 00:15:55.611 Comedy is much more formulaic in some ways. 00:15:55.641 --> 00:15:57.401 There's an art and there's a science, but there is the 00:15:57.401 --> 00:15:58.611 science, which is the math part. 00:15:58.622 --> 00:16:02.391 And so one really basic thing is if you are writing something and 00:16:02.391 --> 00:16:06.461 you want it to be funny, say you're giving a toast or something, you, 00:16:06.501 --> 00:16:11.141 you simply have to have the funniest word in the sentence come last. 00:16:11.601 --> 00:16:14.861 And so if you say, for example, let's say, you know, purple is 00:16:14.861 --> 00:16:16.121 probably a pretty funny color. 00:16:16.201 --> 00:16:21.311 So if you're gonna say, "And the, and the car when it showed up was purple," 00:16:21.761 --> 00:16:26.771 is much funnier than, "And the purple car finally showed up," because showed up 00:16:26.772 --> 00:16:27.971 is not the funny part of that sentence. 00:16:27.981 --> 00:16:30.082 So you want to end with the, the funny part. 00:16:30.731 --> 00:16:34.062 And that also does the second thing, which is the number one reason why people 00:16:34.102 --> 00:16:38.462 don't actually get a laugh is because they don't leave space for the laugh. 00:16:39.001 --> 00:16:41.312 So if you say it at the end of the sentence, then you remember 00:16:41.312 --> 00:16:42.291 there's a period afterwards. 00:16:42.291 --> 00:16:46.230 You pause, and people will fill that space in with laughter. 00:16:46.339 --> 00:16:50.689 Humor is, uh, really interesting because laughter is like, um, one of the only 00:16:51.100 --> 00:16:55.199 contagious social reactions that we have. 00:16:55.299 --> 00:16:57.640 The only other real one is a yawn, right? 00:16:57.680 --> 00:17:01.399 A yawn and laughs are the only things that we spontaneously generate kind of 00:17:01.400 --> 00:17:05.049 against, uh, without consciously thinking of it when we see other people do them. 00:17:05.259 --> 00:17:08.089 So you have to create that space where then someone can laugh and 00:17:08.089 --> 00:17:09.069 it'll make other people laugh. 00:17:09.549 --> 00:17:15.629 And then, uh, on a more kind of, I guess, philosophical frame, people often 00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:18.840 lose an audience by going too quickly. 00:17:18.879 --> 00:17:25.010 If you're trying to give an analogy of this meeting went so bad, it was like, a 00:17:25.010 --> 00:17:29.079 lot of times people will go to the, the single greatest thing they can imagine 00:17:29.090 --> 00:17:30.609 or the, the worst thing they can imagine. 00:17:30.789 --> 00:17:33.279 It was like I was being tortured to death. 00:17:33.599 --> 00:17:33.859 Okay. 00:17:33.860 --> 00:17:34.170 Wow. 00:17:34.750 --> 00:17:37.560 That, it's really hard to go further than that. 00:17:37.859 --> 00:17:40.990 And often the funniest thing is to give kind of things in a series. 00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:45.439 So it's funnier to say like, "The meeting went so bad, it was like 00:17:46.392 --> 00:17:47.952 realizing your zipper was down. 00:17:48.522 --> 00:17:51.602 It was like realizing your pants were fully off. 00:17:51.812 --> 00:17:55.332 It was like realizing you had been nude the whole time, right? 00:17:55.332 --> 00:17:58.951 Like, I'm, I'm escalating in little bits, and by doing that, you're 00:17:58.952 --> 00:18:01.541 taking the people on a journey where they're gonna laugh a little, a little 00:18:01.542 --> 00:18:02.811 bit more, and a little bit more. 00:18:03.091 --> 00:18:05.301 Um, if you just start with the most dramatic, there's 00:18:05.302 --> 00:18:06.182 really nowhere else to go. 00:18:06.182 --> 00:18:09.382 So, so that's something that we, if you pay attention in, like, TV shows and 00:18:09.382 --> 00:18:13.202 movies, you'll see that they very often will do some sort of gradual heightening. 00:18:13.821 --> 00:18:16.741 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for uncovering some of the magic 00:18:16.741 --> 00:18:18.501 and science, uh, uh, of humor. 00:18:18.871 --> 00:18:24.512 This idea that the words themselves and the placement of the words matter a lot. 00:18:25.222 --> 00:18:29.322 And clearly words matter in communication, but being strategic about where you place 00:18:29.322 --> 00:18:33.662 the words and reminding yourself that you need to leave space for those words 00:18:33.662 --> 00:18:36.112 and ideas to sit so people can respond. 00:18:36.792 --> 00:18:40.892 And then thinking about this escalation, and, and this applies certainly for 00:18:40.892 --> 00:18:43.451 comedy, but also in making an argument. 00:18:43.452 --> 00:18:47.491 If you jump to the extreme argument s- too quickly, you can lose people. 00:18:47.491 --> 00:18:50.081 But if you show people how these are gradually related 00:18:50.471 --> 00:18:51.941 ideas, that can really help. 00:18:52.102 --> 00:18:57.091 And, and the generosity you mentioned of, of just being present and enjoying 00:18:57.091 --> 00:19:01.232 and laughing at what others say is a great way to form that connection. 00:19:01.582 --> 00:19:05.262 I wanna take a step back and talk more about general conversation. 00:19:05.621 --> 00:19:08.371 Uh, one of the terms that I really like that you shared in your 00:19:08.371 --> 00:19:10.912 book is conversational doorknobs. 00:19:11.321 --> 00:19:13.361 Well, first, what is a conversational doorknob? 00:19:13.391 --> 00:19:15.011 And what makes for a good doorknob? 00:19:15.011 --> 00:19:19.592 And, and how can we use them, let's say, in small talk, in networking, 00:19:19.592 --> 00:19:21.452 to help the conversation flow? 00:19:21.702 --> 00:19:25.152 Chris Duffy: This is another, uh, Adam Mastroianni idea, um, who was one of 00:19:25.152 --> 00:19:28.381 the, the interviews for my book that I thought, um, shaped the whole thing. 00:19:28.681 --> 00:19:32.561 Um, so conversational doorknob is the idea that you're in conversation with someone 00:19:32.591 --> 00:19:37.621 and they give a statement that opens a whole new room in the conversation, 00:19:37.621 --> 00:19:38.721 so it takes it to a new place. 00:19:38.731 --> 00:19:41.652 So you're not just dull and stuck in the same place. 00:19:41.652 --> 00:19:45.831 You're going somewhere where you're, you're both entering a new place together. 00:19:46.091 --> 00:19:49.421 But one of the things that I think is really fantastic about this 00:19:49.441 --> 00:19:54.741 metaphor that, that he created is, um, it's not just offering a doorknob. 00:19:54.751 --> 00:19:57.232 It's also taking the doorknob and turning it and opening the door. 00:19:57.232 --> 00:20:00.381 So it, it takes two parts in a conversation where someone has 00:20:00.382 --> 00:20:02.491 to be offering these doorknobs and the other person has to be 00:20:02.492 --> 00:20:03.661 receiving them and turning them. 00:20:03.911 --> 00:20:05.942 Otherwise, the conversation can't actually go further. 00:20:05.951 --> 00:20:10.852 So an example that he gives is kind of like the most classic type of 00:20:10.871 --> 00:20:15.676 conversation is, "How are you doing?" "Pretty good." "Crazy weather, 00:20:15.676 --> 00:20:20.076 huh?" "Yep, crazy weather." Not very far that you can go in that. 00:20:20.106 --> 00:20:24.886 But if someone offers something that isn't just, you know, them-focused, 00:20:24.896 --> 00:20:33.566 but if they say, "I heard that it might snow in July, and I was thinking about 00:20:33.566 --> 00:20:39.446 the weirdest weather I'd ever seen," that begs for someone to say, "What's 00:20:39.446 --> 00:20:40.466 the weirdest weather you've ever seen?" 00:20:40.955 --> 00:20:43.956 And it also begs for them to say, "Here's the weirdest weather that I 00:20:43.975 --> 00:20:48.036 have seen, too." So there is this real opportunity for the conversation to go 00:20:48.066 --> 00:20:52.905 into new places, and this is something that I, I think is such a low-risk way 00:20:52.906 --> 00:20:56.886 for people to experiment with having a little bit more humor and fun and 00:20:56.886 --> 00:21:00.495 excitement in their life, is just to next time you're in a, a small talk 00:21:00.496 --> 00:21:04.466 conversation, say something that is just a little bit off of the expected script. 00:21:05.005 --> 00:21:06.835 Instead of just saying, "Okay. 00:21:06.836 --> 00:21:10.286 Well, you know, we're, we're waiting around. 00:21:10.475 --> 00:21:13.665 Ugh, always takes so long." "Yeah, I know, every time. 00:21:14.095 --> 00:21:18.165 Always gotta wait for the bus." Offer, uh, an observation, offer an opinion. 00:21:19.345 --> 00:21:23.316 A classic doorknob is like, "The best soup is lentil soup." That 00:21:23.316 --> 00:21:24.915 demands a response from people. 00:21:24.916 --> 00:21:27.776 They're either gonna agree or they're gonna say, "You think lentil soup is the 00:21:27.785 --> 00:21:31.745 best soup?" So you can offer something like that that will allow them to respond. 00:21:31.876 --> 00:21:35.396 Matt Abrahams: This notion of offers comes directly from improv, and I know, I 00:21:35.396 --> 00:21:36.695 know you've done a lot of studying that. 00:21:36.696 --> 00:21:39.605 And we've had lots of people on, on the show talking about improv. 00:21:39.605 --> 00:21:42.455 But it, it really is about saying yes, and, and collaborating. 00:21:42.785 --> 00:21:45.666 And many of us in these uncomfortable communication 00:21:45.666 --> 00:21:48.065 situations become very self-focused. 00:21:48.065 --> 00:21:51.055 It's, "Oh, this is awkward. I just need to say something," instead of thinking 00:21:51.056 --> 00:21:54.615 about, "What's that doorknob? What's that offer I can make to keep this 00:21:54.615 --> 00:21:59.555 conversation going?" And amazingly, you can have a really interesting 00:22:00.215 --> 00:22:04.166 conversation when you put the offer out there and let the other person take it. 00:22:06.010 --> 00:22:09.419 If you enjoyed my recent conversation with Jean and Cherie from the Tiger Sisters, 00:22:09.450 --> 00:22:11.230 I think you'll really love their show. 00:22:11.550 --> 00:22:14.460 Jean and Cherie are known as the Internet's Wall Street and Silicon 00:22:14.460 --> 00:22:18.120 Valley big sisters, and together they've built Tiger Sisters into a 00:22:18.159 --> 00:22:21.939 top ranked business podcast, reaching number one in business and top 00:22:21.939 --> 00:22:24.040 three overall in Spotify in the US. 00:22:24.409 --> 00:22:28.339 They take big and sometimes complicated ideas around money, power, and love, 00:22:28.599 --> 00:22:32.010 and turn them into clear, practical tools you can apply right away. 00:22:32.409 --> 00:22:36.149 Two fun facts: I coached Cherie for her TEDx talk, and I had the 00:22:36.149 --> 00:22:37.629 chance to join them on their show. 00:22:37.809 --> 00:22:41.840 And I have to say, it was a really thoughtful and engaging conversation. 00:22:42.309 --> 00:22:46.069 They ask great questions and bring a perspective you don't always hear. 00:22:46.399 --> 00:22:50.229 New episodes drop every Monday on their YouTube channel and across all audio 00:22:50.230 --> 00:22:52.700 platforms at Tiger Sisters Podcast. 00:22:53.409 --> 00:22:55.920 Well, Chris, this whole conversation has been fascinating. 00:22:55.930 --> 00:22:57.460 I really appreciate your time. 00:22:57.509 --> 00:23:00.269 As you well know, I like to end with three questions. 00:23:00.269 --> 00:23:02.520 One I make up just for you, another two I've been asking 00:23:02.520 --> 00:23:03.679 people for a long, long time. 00:23:03.679 --> 00:23:04.340 Are you up for that? 00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:05.379 Chris Duffy: Yes, I would love that. 00:23:05.399 --> 00:23:06.259 Thank you so much. 00:23:06.359 --> 00:23:12.379 Matt Abrahams: I am fascinated by comedians who, for whatever reason, a joke 00:23:12.379 --> 00:23:17.719 doesn't land, it doesn't go the way they wanted, it, it bombs, if you will, because 00:23:17.729 --> 00:23:22.509 in that moment where it didn't go the way you wanted, you have a choice to make. 00:23:22.519 --> 00:23:25.090 You can lean into it, you can run away from it. 00:23:25.230 --> 00:23:28.689 Talk to me about how you manage when things don't go the way 00:23:28.689 --> 00:23:33.000 you want set, and how can we benefit from some learnings there? 00:23:33.290 --> 00:23:35.500 Chris Duffy: It's something that people are always really interested 00:23:35.500 --> 00:23:37.199 in, is the concept of bombing. 00:23:37.589 --> 00:23:38.449 And I get why. 00:23:38.449 --> 00:23:39.269 It's dramatic. 00:23:39.279 --> 00:23:40.649 It's kind of a worst fear. 00:23:41.070 --> 00:23:44.459 And for me, I mean, when it has happened over the course of my career, and it 00:23:44.459 --> 00:23:48.600 has happened many, many times, I have handled it badly in so many ways. 00:23:48.619 --> 00:23:52.569 Often though the worst way is to kind of acknowledge it too much to say, 00:23:52.589 --> 00:23:56.399 "Oh, this is not going well," because then the audience, you lose them 'cause 00:23:56.399 --> 00:23:57.929 they're like, "Oh, you're not in control. 00:23:57.930 --> 00:23:58.859 I thought you were in control. 00:23:58.860 --> 00:24:02.199 Maybe this was intentional." Or to, a lot of times people will say like, 00:24:02.360 --> 00:24:04.949 "You're a terrible audience," or like, and you know, you make a joke about 00:24:04.949 --> 00:24:07.629 oranges and they go, "Oh, everyone hates oranges here?" And it's like, no, people 00:24:07.629 --> 00:24:08.849 just hated your joke about oranges. 00:24:10.049 --> 00:24:13.210 I think turning it against them or acknowledging it, or, which is kind 00:24:13.210 --> 00:24:15.609 of turning it against yourself, is often the biggest mistake. 00:24:16.120 --> 00:24:19.799 And instead, I think of it as just information, right? 00:24:19.849 --> 00:24:23.289 Like, how can you use this as information about what the room is feeling or 00:24:23.290 --> 00:24:26.409 thinking or what you're missing that you could then provide them? 00:24:26.829 --> 00:24:29.909 My friend, the comedian Mike Kaplan, has like what I think is the best 00:24:29.959 --> 00:24:35.946 possible response to this, which is he says I say something and you 00:24:35.976 --> 00:24:37.296 as the audience have the power. 00:24:37.636 --> 00:24:39.236 If you laugh, it's a joke. 00:24:39.266 --> 00:24:40.866 If you don't laugh, it's a poem. 00:24:41.036 --> 00:24:41.846 It's your choice. 00:24:43.966 --> 00:24:47.316 And I love that so much because either way it's a gift. 00:24:47.316 --> 00:24:48.976 Either way I'm an artist making art. 00:24:48.996 --> 00:24:52.565 You are just deciding which art form it should be classified into. 00:24:52.566 --> 00:24:55.505 So that's what I aspire to, to do, is to some version of Mike's. 00:24:56.226 --> 00:24:57.376 Matt Abrahams: I think that's fantastic. 00:24:57.376 --> 00:24:58.386 So it's how you frame it. 00:24:58.396 --> 00:24:59.735 The joke didn't bomb at all. 00:24:59.745 --> 00:25:01.346 It was the best poem ever. 00:25:01.435 --> 00:25:01.655 Chris Duffy: Yeah. 00:25:01.655 --> 00:25:03.896 It was a silent response to a moving poem. 00:25:04.265 --> 00:25:04.705 Matt Abrahams: Yes. 00:25:04.765 --> 00:25:05.475 I love it. 00:25:05.546 --> 00:25:08.936 The self-protection that that affords you is, is fantastic. 00:25:09.786 --> 00:25:13.816 Question number two: Who's a communicator that you admire, and why? 00:25:14.745 --> 00:25:18.905 Chris Duffy: The poet Sarah Kay is the most moving and beautiful live 00:25:18.905 --> 00:25:23.685 performer I have ever seen perform, and when she is reading a poem live 00:25:23.685 --> 00:25:29.425 on stage, she tours the world, you are so 100% in the palm of her hand. 00:25:29.435 --> 00:25:32.705 And she creates these beautiful images, but she makes you laugh and cry. 00:25:32.705 --> 00:25:36.505 And Sarah has this metaphor that she talks about sometimes, which is that a 00:25:36.505 --> 00:25:39.295 lot of people are trying to go through the world in a way that is cool. 00:25:39.355 --> 00:25:42.306 They wanna be perceived as cool, and so they, they cross their arms over their 00:25:42.346 --> 00:25:44.326 chest so, like, nothing can reach them. 00:25:44.515 --> 00:25:48.495 And that she wants to walk with her hands open so that she is able to catch 00:25:48.495 --> 00:25:51.315 everything, which means that you catch the sorrow and the heartbreak, too. 00:25:51.365 --> 00:25:55.666 And that form of communication I find to be so moving and so aspirational. 00:25:55.956 --> 00:25:58.185 Matt Abrahams: It sounds like emotion and connection are really 00:25:58.185 --> 00:26:03.325 critical in, in the, what makes you see somebody who stands out. 00:26:03.465 --> 00:26:04.725 Final question for you, Chris. 00:26:04.745 --> 00:26:09.325 What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? 00:26:09.835 --> 00:26:16.044 Chris Duffy: Oh, um, I'm gonna say presence, delight, and attention. 00:26:16.444 --> 00:26:19.904 So being where you are, having fun, and then paying attention to the 00:26:19.904 --> 00:26:21.194 person who you're communicating with. 00:26:21.853 --> 00:26:22.304 Matt Abrahams: I love it. 00:26:22.344 --> 00:26:23.094 PDA. 00:26:23.424 --> 00:26:24.524 Chris Duffy: Oh, PDA. 00:26:24.534 --> 00:26:24.774 Wow. 00:26:25.303 --> 00:26:27.094 Matt Abrahams: Presence, delight, and attention. 00:26:27.174 --> 00:26:27.544 Excellent. 00:26:27.553 --> 00:26:30.374 Well, Chris, this was a true pleasure. 00:26:30.394 --> 00:26:32.014 It was fun to be with you on your show. 00:26:32.044 --> 00:26:33.764 It was lovely to have you on this show. 00:26:34.134 --> 00:26:38.074 I think all of us can take away some lessons about how to accept 00:26:38.074 --> 00:26:42.563 offers, how to be present, and how to think about the words we use, 00:26:42.634 --> 00:26:44.823 especially at the end of our sentences. 00:26:45.093 --> 00:26:45.663 Thanks. 00:26:46.323 --> 00:26:46.783 Chris Duffy: Thank you. 00:26:46.794 --> 00:26:47.303 What a gift. 00:26:48.213 --> 00:26:50.183 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think 00:26:50.183 --> 00:26:51.923 Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:26:51.974 --> 00:26:55.944 To learn more about levity and humor, please listen to episode 13 with 00:26:55.963 --> 00:26:58.114 Jennifer Aaker and Naomi Bagdonas. 00:26:58.833 --> 00:27:02.503 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, Alex 00:27:02.503 --> 00:27:04.633 McCarthy, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:27:05.114 --> 00:27:08.183 Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with special thanks 00:27:08.204 --> 00:27:09.943 to the Podium Podcast Company. 00:27:10.423 --> 00:27:13.343 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:27:13.814 --> 00:27:15.744 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:27:16.134 --> 00:27:19.244 Also, follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. 00:27:19.654 --> 00:27:23.713 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language 00:27:23.713 --> 00:27:25.863 learning content, and our newsletter. 00:27:26.764 --> 00:27:29.804 Please also consider joining our Think Fast, Talk Smart Learning 00:27:29.804 --> 00:27:33.053 Community at fastersmarter.io/learning. 00:27:33.463 --> 00:27:37.603 You'll find video lessons, learning quests, discussion boards, an AI 00:27:37.673 --> 00:27:39.804 coach, and book club opportunities. 00:27:40.033 --> 00:27:44.763 Again, that's fastersmarter.io/learning to become part of our Think Fast, 00:27:44.953 --> 00:27:46.694 Talk Smart Learning Community