Matt Abrahams: Humor and levity lead to deeper connection and communication.
My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach Strategic Communication at
Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.
Today I am really looking forward to chatting with Chris Duffy.
Chris is an award-winning comedian, television writer, and the host of TED's
popular How to Be a Better Human podcast.
A former fifth grade teacher who went on to write for HBO's
Wyatt Cenac's Problem Areas.
Chris consistently explores the intersection of humor,
connection, and empathy.
His latest book is Humor Me: How Laughing More Can Make You Present,
Creative, Connected, and Happy.
Chris, I am super excited for our conversation.
I really enjoyed getting to know you when you had me on your show,
and I'm thrilled to have you here on Think Fast, Talk Smart.
Chris Duffy: Thank you so much.
Yeah, it was such a pleasure talking to you, and I'm thrilled
to be here in, in your home now.
Matt Abrahams: Well, thank you very much.
Uh, shall we get started?
Chris Duffy: Yes, let's do it.
Matt Abrahams: Okay.
So, uh, you have a fascinating backstory.
Uh, you transitioned from teaching, uh, in a classroom, 10-year-olds, fifth
grade, I believe, to, uh, performing stand-up comedy, and now you host, uh,
your own, uh, show on the TED network.
Uh, how did managing a fifth grade classroom prepare you for any of this?
Chris Duffy: You know, so much of teaching, we think of teaching
as inspiration and these big, you know, connection moments.
And that's not to put that down, but a lot of teaching, any teacher will
tell you, is clear communication, um, clear expectations, and having a vision
of what you want the class to do.
So, like, for the small stuff, too, right?
Like, how do I get tissues in the classroom?
There has to be a procedure for that, otherwise the kids
make up their own procedure.
That is not how you want it to go.
So, so much of that, like, precision and vision I think has really, um, carried
through to all the other things I've done.
Matt Abrahams: I totally agree.
It's about expectation setting.
It's, it's setting up procedures and ground rules, but leaving for
flexibility in, in some of that.
And I'll tell you, some of the best lessons I learned when I was managing
people came from managing a classroom.
There's just a lot you have to deal with.
Chris, it strikes me that really good teachers spend time lesson planning
and thinking through how they want to take their students from where they
are to where they need to be for the learning objective, and a, a comedian,
in many ways, does the same thing.
You have to, where you're starting with your audience,
where you want to take them.
Now, the outcome is different.
It's not learning.
It's humor.
It's enjoyment.
Uh, but I'm curious, can you walk us through that process that you have of
how do we get people from where they are to where you need them to be?
Chris Duffy: Yeah, it's, it's an, it's really interesting to think about because
I would say it's actually not just in my teaching and in my comedy, but in
pretty much all communication, at least anything that I'm, um, planning ahead
of time and, and gonna do in any sort of performative way, I, I use the same trick.
Which is I, I think about like a magician.
They do a ton of work to make the work that they're doing invisible.
And for me, as a comedian, the work that you do is to make it seem like you are
saying something for the very first time.
But actually you've said it 100 times before.
And the reason you've done that is you're getting to the way that gets
the audience to understand what you're saying and to take a journey
with you as quickly as possible.
And that was the exact same thing that I was trying to do in the classroom
is, how do I in, in the shortest amount of time get the students to
understand what is happening, and then get them to take this journey with me?
This was my favorite lesson to teach every year, and it was a lesson about,
um, the Declaration of Independence.
So the way that I did this was we were coming back from lunch, and
I would gather the students on the rug and I would say, "I have
something really serious to tell you.
It is very important to me that you're paying attention in class and
also that you are being appropriate.
And during lunch I found a note on the floor.
And it is so inappropriate to pass notes.
It's especially inappropriate to pass notes that are inappropriate.
I'm gonna read you that note right now.
And I would read the note and it said, you know, "You and I used to
have a good relationship, but you're taking advantage of me, and I feel
like you don't even listen to me, and I don't have a say at all. So I
need, I think we need to break up. Sincerely, The United States of America."
And then I'd say, "The Declaration of Independence, history's most
famous breakup note." And the kids would go, "Ah, you got us.
You tricked us." But they would remember that for, like, the rest of
the year, and they would be excited for the next year to learn that.
And the reason is because it did not seem like that's what I was doing at all.
And that's the same thing that you try and do in, in a comedy routine.
That's the same thing that you try and do when you're, you know, talking
to anyone is to give them some moment of delight, but to understand that
this, like, you've hooked them in a way where they don't necessarily
see what you're doing beforehand.
Matt Abrahams: I love that, that analogy of the Declaration of
Independence as a breakup note.
But what you really did there, I think, is you built curiosity and, and suspense,
and a lot of effective, engaging communication plays on those two things.
Chris Duffy: Well, one of the things in comedy actually is, like, um, when
you're first starting out in comedy, one of the big things that everyone
learns is that if the audience isn't laughing at something you think is
funny, it's often because they either don't have enough context or because you
haven't layered enough elements on top.
So the elements have to be, like, your factual statement, but it's often,
like, factual statement plus emotion.
So, like, the alarm clock went off and I was so excited.
The alarm clock went off and I was so scared, right?
Like, whatever the fact plus emotion is, you get the audience into a
place really quickly where then you can deliver the punchline.
And I think so often in all communication we forget that, like, people aren't
inside of our heads, so you have to give them that emotional information
as well as the factual information.
Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.
And, and many of us, especially if you're working in a tech job or
in a finance position, you don't think about that emotion, but it
really does make a difference.
I want to drill down on something you said.
You, as a comedian and a teacher who's taught lessons over and over
again, you want to make it sound like it's the very first time.
How do you do that?
What do you do to, to help make that sound like this is an authentic
moment that we are having together here, even though I've said these
same things over and over again?
Chris Duffy: I'll give you two answers.
One of which is like just to say that you actually make it
genuinely exciting and new for you.
So you find a way for it to not be rote and routine and a script for yourself.
For me, if I'm trying to tell a joke, I try and figure out, like,
how can I actually make myself laugh?
Not fake laugh, but like how can I genuinely find the funny part to me of
this story that I've told 100 times?
The other part though is, um, and this is the part that's like a little
more, um, calculating I guess, is if you want to make it seem like you've
never said something before, you don't just think about the words.
You think about how you're delivering them.
You think about the way that your face and your body are.
And so taking a pause for example, right?
Like if you pause and look up, if you go, "Huh, I see something outside of
this window." Immediately people think well, that's in the moment, right?
He paused and he looked up.
He's actually connecting it to some sort of physical reality
rather than just saying, "I see outside this window a tree." Right?
Like if you go, "Have you ever noticed that tree? That one right
there." And, and the other thing is to, um, root it in the other person.
So I think if you're trying to get them to do something, like, listen, look
out the window, take a deep breath.
Making sure that they are actually doing that thing and creating the space
for it, that will make it, again, feel like it is real and in the moment, um,
because you actually can't plan for how long or exactly how they do that thing.
So those are some of the little tricks that I use.
Matt Abrahams: Uh, I love those.
The one you just discussed is really about bringing an experience.
It could be your experience of what it is or helping them have that experience.
I like to leverage questions.
I, I'll ask questions and, and I don't always know how they'll
respond, but the questions take me in the direction that I need.
So there's some novelty, but it's baked into the predictability
of where I need to go.
And finding the emotional connection you have to the moment, as you shared
with the, the joke you like to tell, uh, that can be really powerful.
It doesn't have to be just something that makes you laugh.
It's just that emotional connection, and I appreciate that.
We'll be right back to finish our conversation, but first, a quick
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And now, back to our conversation.
Stepping on a stage, be it a comedy club, which to me would be really
challenging or, or even a boardroom or, or, or just some office meeting setting,
for many people can be terrifying.
Do you have any mindset shifts or routines you use to help yourself
feel more comfortable and calm in those high-stakes moments?
Chris Duffy: It's not like I always am able to conquer my, my social anxiety.
But in the settings where I can, right, like in performance and, um,
in moderation or in an interview or, or those kinds of things, one is I can
conquer it because I've done it a bunch.
And so I, I have given myself that kind of exposure therapy of knowing that,
like, if you get up on stage and you try and make people laugh and they don't
laugh, you're still alive the next day.
And you know what?
It doesn't ruin your life, and most of those people don't even remember
who you were 14 minutes after they leave the room, much less two days.
Um, so one is exposing myself to it.
The other is I try and rather than, like, talk myself into feeling a certain
way, I try and get my body first.
So, like, I try and get my body excited.
So I will, like, literally, like, jump up and down, kind of
like skip before I go on stage.
And then I will, like, literally bounce up and down and say, like, uh, I think I
saw this in a, a movie about Muhammad Ali.
But I go, like, "From the root to the fruit, from the root to the fruit.
Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee." But, like, it transforms that
nervousness into excitement for me.
My body then, like, metabolizes that as excitement, and when I go out, I have
this burst of energy rather than, like, a, a freezing and, and tightening up.
So I find the physical part really, really helps
Matt Abrahams: You're not the first person to share a physical routine.
I, I think not only does it take that energy and do something
purposeful with it, but it also gets you very present oriented.
You're, you're, you're feeling and, and, and that's where all effective
communication comes from, uh, to my mind.
Hey, I would, I'd like you to explain the difference between jamming versus joking.
Can you explain what this means and how it's best to
lean into one versus the other?
Because the ability to use humor is a great way to lighten
the, the mood, to connect with people, to diffuse situations.
Talk to us about jamming and joking.
Chris Duffy: Yeah.
So this is, um, this comes from Adam Mastroianni, who is a, um, an academic and
a writer who I, I just absolutely love.
Um, he has a fantastic newsletter called Experimental History, I think is what
it's called, or Experimental Psychology.
Um, but he's fantastic.
And, um, he has done academic research on why conversations end and whether people
want them to end when they end or whether they have ended prematurely or too late.
So I just think that's like a fascinating research field.
And then he came up with this idea of jamming versus joking,
which so, um, resonates with me.
And the idea is that sometimes we are playing with each other in a way
that builds and lets the other person have space and feel like they're in
it with us and we are going together.
And that's jamming, right?
It's like when you're playing instruments together and one person
plays the guitar and then there's space for the bass to come in, and
now there's space for the drums.
And we're actually all making something incredible together.
And joking is his, um, his other side, which is joking is when you
are kind of making it all about you and you are so invested in the joke
part of it that you actually are stopping them from being
able to participate as well.
Um, so his example is like if you're a pun guy.
If someone says, "Hey, it's pretty cold outside," and you immediately
respond with like, uh, "Colder than, uh, colder than Antarctica.
And speaking of Antarctica, ark, uh, Noah's Ark." You know, you're like, "What?
What are you talking about?" That's just like not something
that people can respond to.
It's just like kind of nonsense wordplay and not even a good
example of nonsense wordplay.
Um, whereas if you are taking what someone else is saying and you're joking around
with them and you're getting them into it.
So you know, they go, "It's so cold outside." And you go, "Oh my
gosh, remember the time that you told me about where it was so cold
and you had forgotten your coat?
What did you do?"
And then they say, and we go, "Oh, what if we both had to make a,
make a coat out of garbage bags?
That would be hilarious if we were doing this." Then you, you're building
something together where there's space and you're creating this world together
and I think that that is something that for me professionally and on stage,
it's the difference between like a great comedy show and a terrible comedy show.
I have found this to be a really transformative idea when I think
about humor in particular, is to think about like, what is the humor that is
not making it about you, but that is gonna make everyone have a good time?
What is it that's gonna make the other person look good?
Because I think this is the biggest misconception that people have about
humor, is that the successful humor is you being at the center and you being in the
spotlight, and I actually totally disagree
Matt Abrahams: I think it's true for all communication, which is
how do we get everybody engaged and involved so that they feel part of it?
You're collaborating and co-creating something.
Chris Duffy: I mean, sometimes people talk about, you know, being interested
versus interesting, and I think this is an offshoot of that, right?
How do you, um, not try and make it so the other person goes, "Wow, Chris
is a fascinating man," but instead go, "Wow, we had a conversation and
I actually didn't know that I had those thoughts or opinions, but it
was really cool to, to discover them in, in a conversation together."
Matt Abrahams: Yeah, together we learn something, and I think that's really cool.
So Chris, I really enjoyed your book.
Not only is it very informative about humor in general, but
how we can be more funny.
It in and of itself is quite funny.
I enjoyed laughing as I was learning, so thank you for that.
Uh, you share in it several unwritten rules of comedy.
Uh, you talk about elevators, not rocket ships.
Can you just give us some insight and advice for those of us who would love
to leverage humor in our communication and our relationships who aren't
stand-up comedians or improv experts?
What are a few things we can do to be funnier?
Chris Duffy: My number one piece of advice to people when they say like, "I don't
think of myself as a funny person, but I want to be funnier," is to shift how you
think about that and to not necessarily think like it's me telling more jokes.
But, um, I would say try to laugh more in your life.
So like find people who make you laugh, be around them, um, enjoy
comedy, movies or TV shows or clips.
Like, look at the absurdity in the world.
So like if you can laugh more, I think that will naturally bring
funniness into your life, and then you can share the things that you
thought were funny with other people.
But then when you are trying to like actually create the humor on your own,
not to just appreciate the humor that you found or that you're hearing, there's
a couple of really, um, basic ways in which like math plays into comedy.
Comedy is much more formulaic in some ways.
There's an art and there's a science, but there is the
science, which is the math part.
And so one really basic thing is if you are writing something and
you want it to be funny, say you're giving a toast or something, you,
you simply have to have the funniest word in the sentence come last.
And so if you say, for example, let's say, you know, purple is
probably a pretty funny color.
So if you're gonna say, "And the, and the car when it showed up was purple,"
is much funnier than, "And the purple car finally showed up," because showed up
is not the funny part of that sentence.
So you want to end with the, the funny part.
And that also does the second thing, which is the number one reason why people
don't actually get a laugh is because they don't leave space for the laugh.
So if you say it at the end of the sentence, then you remember
there's a period afterwards.
You pause, and people will fill that space in with laughter.
Humor is, uh, really interesting because laughter is like, um, one of the only
contagious social reactions that we have.
The only other real one is a yawn, right?
A yawn and laughs are the only things that we spontaneously generate kind of
against, uh, without consciously thinking of it when we see other people do them.
So you have to create that space where then someone can laugh and
it'll make other people laugh.
And then, uh, on a more kind of, I guess, philosophical frame, people often
lose an audience by going too quickly.
If you're trying to give an analogy of this meeting went so bad, it was like, a
lot of times people will go to the, the single greatest thing they can imagine
or the, the worst thing they can imagine.
It was like I was being tortured to death.
Okay.
Wow.
That, it's really hard to go further than that.
And often the funniest thing is to give kind of things in a series.
So it's funnier to say like, "The meeting went so bad, it was like
realizing your zipper was down.
It was like realizing your pants were fully off.
It was like realizing you had been nude the whole time, right?
Like, I'm, I'm escalating in little bits, and by doing that, you're
taking the people on a journey where they're gonna laugh a little, a little
bit more, and a little bit more.
Um, if you just start with the most dramatic, there's
really nowhere else to go.
So, so that's something that we, if you pay attention in, like, TV shows and
movies, you'll see that they very often will do some sort of gradual heightening.
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for uncovering some of the magic
and science, uh, uh, of humor.
This idea that the words themselves and the placement of the words matter a lot.
And clearly words matter in communication, but being strategic about where you place
the words and reminding yourself that you need to leave space for those words
and ideas to sit so people can respond.
And then thinking about this escalation, and, and this applies certainly for
comedy, but also in making an argument.
If you jump to the extreme argument s- too quickly, you can lose people.
But if you show people how these are gradually related
ideas, that can really help.
And, and the generosity you mentioned of, of just being present and enjoying
and laughing at what others say is a great way to form that connection.
I wanna take a step back and talk more about general conversation.
Uh, one of the terms that I really like that you shared in your
book is conversational doorknobs.
Well, first, what is a conversational doorknob?
And what makes for a good doorknob?
And, and how can we use them, let's say, in small talk, in networking,
to help the conversation flow?
Chris Duffy: This is another, uh, Adam Mastroianni idea, um, who was one of
the, the interviews for my book that I thought, um, shaped the whole thing.
Um, so conversational doorknob is the idea that you're in conversation with someone
and they give a statement that opens a whole new room in the conversation,
so it takes it to a new place.
So you're not just dull and stuck in the same place.
You're going somewhere where you're, you're both entering a new place together.
But one of the things that I think is really fantastic about this
metaphor that, that he created is, um, it's not just offering a doorknob.
It's also taking the doorknob and turning it and opening the door.
So it, it takes two parts in a conversation where someone has
to be offering these doorknobs and the other person has to be
receiving them and turning them.
Otherwise, the conversation can't actually go further.
So an example that he gives is kind of like the most classic type of
conversation is, "How are you doing?" "Pretty good." "Crazy weather,
huh?" "Yep, crazy weather." Not very far that you can go in that.
But if someone offers something that isn't just, you know, them-focused,
but if they say, "I heard that it might snow in July, and I was thinking about
the weirdest weather I'd ever seen," that begs for someone to say, "What's
the weirdest weather you've ever seen?"
And it also begs for them to say, "Here's the weirdest weather that I
have seen, too." So there is this real opportunity for the conversation to go
into new places, and this is something that I, I think is such a low-risk way
for people to experiment with having a little bit more humor and fun and
excitement in their life, is just to next time you're in a, a small talk
conversation, say something that is just a little bit off of the expected script.
Instead of just saying, "Okay.
Well, you know, we're, we're waiting around.
Ugh, always takes so long." "Yeah, I know, every time.
Always gotta wait for the bus." Offer, uh, an observation, offer an opinion.
A classic doorknob is like, "The best soup is lentil soup." That
demands a response from people.
They're either gonna agree or they're gonna say, "You think lentil soup is the
best soup?" So you can offer something like that that will allow them to respond.
Matt Abrahams: This notion of offers comes directly from improv, and I know, I
know you've done a lot of studying that.
And we've had lots of people on, on the show talking about improv.
But it, it really is about saying yes, and, and collaborating.
And many of us in these uncomfortable communication
situations become very self-focused.
It's, "Oh, this is awkward. I just need to say something," instead of thinking
about, "What's that doorknob? What's that offer I can make to keep this
conversation going?" And amazingly, you can have a really interesting
conversation when you put the offer out there and let the other person take it.
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Well, Chris, this whole conversation has been fascinating.
I really appreciate your time.
As you well know, I like to end with three questions.
One I make up just for you, another two I've been asking
people for a long, long time.
Are you up for that?
Chris Duffy: Yes, I would love that.
Thank you so much.
Matt Abrahams: I am fascinated by comedians who, for whatever reason, a joke
doesn't land, it doesn't go the way they wanted, it, it bombs, if you will, because
in that moment where it didn't go the way you wanted, you have a choice to make.
You can lean into it, you can run away from it.
Talk to me about how you manage when things don't go the way
you want set, and how can we benefit from some learnings there?
Chris Duffy: It's something that people are always really interested
in, is the concept of bombing.
And I get why.
It's dramatic.
It's kind of a worst fear.
And for me, I mean, when it has happened over the course of my career, and it
has happened many, many times, I have handled it badly in so many ways.
Often though the worst way is to kind of acknowledge it too much to say,
"Oh, this is not going well," because then the audience, you lose them 'cause
they're like, "Oh, you're not in control.
I thought you were in control.
Maybe this was intentional." Or to, a lot of times people will say like,
"You're a terrible audience," or like, and you know, you make a joke about
oranges and they go, "Oh, everyone hates oranges here?" And it's like, no, people
just hated your joke about oranges.
I think turning it against them or acknowledging it, or, which is kind
of turning it against yourself, is often the biggest mistake.
And instead, I think of it as just information, right?
Like, how can you use this as information about what the room is feeling or
thinking or what you're missing that you could then provide them?
My friend, the comedian Mike Kaplan, has like what I think is the best
possible response to this, which is he says I say something and you
as the audience have the power.
If you laugh, it's a joke.
If you don't laugh, it's a poem.
It's your choice.
And I love that so much because either way it's a gift.
Either way I'm an artist making art.
You are just deciding which art form it should be classified into.
So that's what I aspire to, to do, is to some version of Mike's.
Matt Abrahams: I think that's fantastic.
So it's how you frame it.
The joke didn't bomb at all.
It was the best poem ever.
Chris Duffy: Yeah.
It was a silent response to a moving poem.
Matt Abrahams: Yes.
I love it.
The self-protection that that affords you is, is fantastic.
Question number two: Who's a communicator that you admire, and why?
Chris Duffy: The poet Sarah Kay is the most moving and beautiful live
performer I have ever seen perform, and when she is reading a poem live
on stage, she tours the world, you are so 100% in the palm of her hand.
And she creates these beautiful images, but she makes you laugh and cry.
And Sarah has this metaphor that she talks about sometimes, which is that a
lot of people are trying to go through the world in a way that is cool.
They wanna be perceived as cool, and so they, they cross their arms over their
chest so, like, nothing can reach them.
And that she wants to walk with her hands open so that she is able to catch
everything, which means that you catch the sorrow and the heartbreak, too.
And that form of communication I find to be so moving and so aspirational.
Matt Abrahams: It sounds like emotion and connection are really
critical in, in the, what makes you see somebody who stands out.
Final question for you, Chris.
What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?
Chris Duffy: Oh, um, I'm gonna say presence, delight, and attention.
So being where you are, having fun, and then paying attention to the
person who you're communicating with.
Matt Abrahams: I love it.
PDA.
Chris Duffy: Oh, PDA.
Wow.
Matt Abrahams: Presence, delight, and attention.
Excellent.
Well, Chris, this was a true pleasure.
It was fun to be with you on your show.
It was lovely to have you on this show.
I think all of us can take away some lessons about how to accept
offers, how to be present, and how to think about the words we use,
especially at the end of our sentences.
Thanks.
Chris Duffy: Thank you.
What a gift.
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think
Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.
To learn more about levity and humor, please listen to episode 13 with
Jennifer Aaker and Naomi Bagdonas.
This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, Alex
McCarthy, and me, Matt Abrahams.
Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with special thanks
to the Podium Podcast Company.
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