00:00:00.400 --> 00:00:03.990 Matt Abrahams: It doesn't take much to see how cynical we are in the world today.. 00:00:04.250 --> 00:00:06.580 We doubt, we lack trust. 00:00:06.850 --> 00:00:12.350 What if we could develop hopeful skepticism where we trust loudly? 00:00:13.029 --> 00:00:18.529 My name's Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:18.980 --> 00:00:22.720 Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:23.370 --> 00:00:26.260 Today, I look forward to speaking with Jamil Zaki. 00:00:26.640 --> 00:00:32.239 Jamil is a professor of psychology at Stanford and the director of the Stanford Social Neuroscience Lab. 00:00:32.610 --> 00:00:37.740 He studies empathy and kindness, both at the interpersonal and neuroscience level. 00:00:38.330 --> 00:00:41.080 He has a new book out that I really enjoyed. 00:00:41.189 --> 00:00:46.020 It's called Hope for Cynics: The Surprising Science of Human Goodness. 00:00:46.809 --> 00:00:49.690 Jamil, I am so excited for our conversation. 00:00:49.719 --> 00:00:56.709 We've had such great chats with some of your colleagues in the psychology department at Stanford, Jeanne Tsai, Alia Crum, Phil Zimbardo. 00:00:56.999 --> 00:00:58.769 Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart. 00:00:58.870 --> 00:00:59.929 Jamil Zaki: Oh, thank you so much, Matt. 00:00:59.929 --> 00:01:00.879 It's a pleasure to be here. 00:01:01.280 --> 00:01:01.650 Matt Abrahams: Awesome. 00:01:01.650 --> 00:01:02.330 Should we get started? 00:01:02.400 --> 00:01:02.970 Jamil Zaki: Let's do it. 00:01:03.210 --> 00:01:03.790 Matt Abrahams: Excellent. 00:01:04.460 --> 00:01:06.680 Trust is an important part of what you study. 00:01:06.700 --> 00:01:11.540 Can you define trust from your perspective and its impact on the relationships we have? 00:01:12.289 --> 00:01:21.660 Jamil Zaki: Trust I would say is one person's willingness to be vulnerable on the expectation that another person will step up and have our best interest in mind. 00:01:22.065 --> 00:01:28.745 So for instance, when you loan somebody money, but also when you decide to open up with a new acquaintance about a struggle that you're going through. 00:01:28.785 --> 00:01:32.865 When you allow a babysitter to watch your kids, all of these are acts of trust. 00:01:33.205 --> 00:01:38.294 And I would say that those acts are the bedrock on which relationships are formed. 00:01:38.664 --> 00:01:49.620 The only way that strangers become friends and friends become best friends, the only way that we can build partnerships in business is through a willingness to count on one another. 00:01:49.670 --> 00:01:53.510 So without trust, all of those relationships would disappear. 00:01:54.050 --> 00:01:54.760 Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. 00:01:54.770 --> 00:01:59.160 How are some ways that you have seen or studied that people can actually develop better trust? 00:01:59.179 --> 00:02:02.279 And I'm assuming communication plays an important role in all of that. 00:02:02.610 --> 00:02:03.699 Jamil Zaki: Oh, absolutely. 00:02:03.960 --> 00:02:06.920 Trust is a matter of managing risk, it's a social bet. 00:02:07.485 --> 00:02:11.055 If you count on somebody and they betray you, you will lose. 00:02:11.325 --> 00:02:14.635 And if you count on somebody and they show up for you, you both win. 00:02:15.105 --> 00:02:19.454 I think that we might be too risk averse in our trusting relationships. 00:02:19.565 --> 00:02:20.315 Why is that? 00:02:20.525 --> 00:02:25.634 Well, that time that you're let down lives on in your mind for years or decades. 00:02:25.634 --> 00:02:28.615 We all remember the times that we've been betrayed. 00:02:28.795 --> 00:02:36.500 But the opportunities that we miss, because we didn't trust somebody who would have honored that trust, we don't think of as much. 00:02:36.710 --> 00:02:41.810 So I think that our risk calculation is off and we might want to take more leaps of faith on people. 00:02:42.320 --> 00:02:47.150 You asked about how this could matter in terms of communication, and I think that there's an important point here too. 00:02:47.530 --> 00:02:51.670 Because trust isn't just about what you do, it's about how you explain what you do. 00:02:52.440 --> 00:02:54.960 I really love the term trusting loudly. 00:02:55.370 --> 00:03:04.465 That is when you put your faith in somebody else, it's important to tell them that you're doing so and to tell them that the reason you're doing that is because you believe in them. 00:03:04.495 --> 00:03:06.485 You say, well, you know, I've been going through this. 00:03:06.524 --> 00:03:09.474 I want to tell you about it because I really trust you. 00:03:10.134 --> 00:03:14.434 That simple message has way more power than I think most of us realize. 00:03:14.935 --> 00:03:24.104 It's a gift to another person and makes it much more likely that they will reciprocate by stepping up and becoming trustworthy as well as strengthening the relationship. 00:03:24.800 --> 00:03:28.859 Matt Abrahams: I love that notion of trusting loudly, making it explicit. 00:03:29.300 --> 00:03:38.310 And in many ways, as you say, not only is it an invitation and a gift, but it also is a way of demonstrating vulnerability and saying, I'm open to that. 00:03:38.739 --> 00:03:44.359 In this notion of risk aversion, we've talked about before on the podcast, and we've had Dan Pink on who talked about regrets. 00:03:44.549 --> 00:03:50.700 And the regretting of not taking the act because of not trusting, I think looms large in my life and in others. 00:03:50.930 --> 00:03:51.690 I appreciate that. 00:03:51.700 --> 00:03:54.890 And I'm going to think a lot about trusting loudly as we move forward. 00:03:55.300 --> 00:03:57.830 Your new book focuses on cynicism. 00:03:58.130 --> 00:04:00.380 What is cynicism from your perspective? 00:04:00.399 --> 00:04:02.870 And what is what you call the cynicism trap? 00:04:03.820 --> 00:04:04.110 Jamil Zaki: Yeah. 00:04:04.110 --> 00:04:07.019 So cynicism can be thought of as a theory. 00:04:07.489 --> 00:04:10.460 A theory about the world and about humanity in particular. 00:04:10.875 --> 00:04:16.055 It's the theory that most people, at their core, are selfish, greedy, and dishonest. 00:04:16.355 --> 00:04:21.175 Now, that is not to say that a cynic believes nobody will ever do something kind. 00:04:21.475 --> 00:04:27.625 Rather, they think that those kind acts are a surface level performance of what we're supposed to be. 00:04:27.975 --> 00:04:36.175 But if you had a magnifying glass and could peer beneath the action into a person's soul, they're mostly looking out for themselves. 00:04:36.724 --> 00:04:40.474 This is a worldview that traps us in all sorts of ways. 00:04:40.935 --> 00:04:49.594 But the major form in which it traps us is that cynics lose all of the powerful benefits that we've just talked about when it comes to trust. 00:04:49.775 --> 00:05:00.555 Because if you believe that every act of trust is a social bet on another person, and you also have a theory that most people would lie, cheat, and steal if they could. 00:05:00.795 --> 00:05:03.275 Well then that bet is for suckers. 00:05:03.545 --> 00:05:08.215 And we see that in cynics actions and in their self report as well, right? 00:05:08.215 --> 00:05:14.814 They tell us in the lab and they tell researchers that they don't think it's a smart decision to trust almost anybody. 00:05:15.165 --> 00:05:25.645 And if you give them chances to trust others, both in the laboratory and if you measure how much they trust people in their lives, they're much less willing to take those chances. 00:05:26.305 --> 00:05:33.585 And that means that they often end up trapped in a smaller version of their lives than they might want to live in, right? 00:05:33.585 --> 00:05:39.685 So they might not be betrayed as much, but they also don't form as many friendships and partnerships. 00:05:40.230 --> 00:05:47.070 They lose access to the richness of social life, which I would argue is one of the best parts of being human. 00:05:47.680 --> 00:05:48.920 Matt Abrahams: Is it binary? 00:05:48.960 --> 00:05:50.630 Is it you're either a cynic or you're not? 00:05:50.669 --> 00:05:51.890 Is there a continuum? 00:05:51.890 --> 00:05:58.980 And what do you find in the work that you've done and the work others have done in terms of are most people towards the cynical side or are they more optimistic? 00:05:59.039 --> 00:06:01.530 And well, let me ask this, what's the opposite of cynicism? 00:06:01.979 --> 00:06:05.560 Jamil Zaki: First, cynicism is not a binary, it's a spectrum. 00:06:05.880 --> 00:06:15.960 So there's all sorts of tests where you can measure your own cynicism through answering questions like, do you agree that most people would lie if they could get away with it? 00:06:16.259 --> 00:06:20.939 Or do you think that most people only help others because they feel obligated to? 00:06:21.099 --> 00:06:24.959 There's fifty questions like that, you can find a cynicism test online. 00:06:25.269 --> 00:06:28.109 And people range and they vary enormously. 00:06:28.589 --> 00:06:31.309 I would add that it's not just that people differ from each other. 00:06:31.825 --> 00:06:36.315 We differ from ourselves at different times and in different environments, right? 00:06:36.315 --> 00:06:42.115 So at a poker table, it's perfectly natural to be pretty cynical about the people you're playing against. 00:06:42.145 --> 00:06:44.114 They probably do have their best interest in mind. 00:06:44.435 --> 00:06:47.964 At a charity drive, maybe that's not as smart an assumption. 00:06:48.335 --> 00:06:50.105 What's the opposite of a cynic? 00:06:50.434 --> 00:06:51.545 It depends who you ask. 00:06:51.795 --> 00:06:58.794 If you ask a cynic, then the opposite of a cynic is a gullible rube or chump or mark. 00:06:59.025 --> 00:07:01.534 The opposite of cynicism is being naive. 00:07:02.330 --> 00:07:08.390 I would argue, from a scientific perspective, being naïve and being cynical are actually quite similar to one another. 00:07:08.660 --> 00:07:16.299 A naïve person might credulously, unthinkingly put faith in everybody without evidence and end up being betrayed. 00:07:16.690 --> 00:07:21.340 A cynic credulously and unthinkingly takes away faith from everybody. 00:07:21.420 --> 00:07:24.190 And neither one of them uses much evidence. 00:07:24.590 --> 00:07:30.980 You can think of both naive trusters and cynics as sort of like lawyers in the trial against humanity, right? 00:07:30.980 --> 00:07:36.460 Where cynics are part of the prosecution and naive trusters are part of the defense. 00:07:36.969 --> 00:07:40.330 I would say that the opposite of cynicism is skepticism. 00:07:40.480 --> 00:07:45.515 That is, not having one assumption or the other about what people are like. 00:07:46.035 --> 00:07:51.945 But thinking instead of like a lawyer, thinking like a scientist and looking for evidence to support our claims. 00:07:52.215 --> 00:08:01.384 Skeptics, unlike cynics, are more open to learning from every single act of communication, every interaction that they have. 00:08:01.524 --> 00:08:06.945 And that I think makes them a lot wiser than either cynics or gullible people. 00:08:07.565 --> 00:08:08.865 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for that distinction. 00:08:09.289 --> 00:08:16.239 What are things we can do to foster what I think you call hopeful skepticism versus cynicism? 00:08:16.239 --> 00:08:17.679 How can we inculcate that? 00:08:17.679 --> 00:08:19.309 How can we teach that to others? 00:08:19.489 --> 00:08:26.479 How can we embody that in our own way and approach in situations where we might have a tendency to be cynical? 00:08:26.809 --> 00:08:33.145 Jamil Zaki: Yeah, it's a hard task because I think that our brains and minds are set up for cynicism. 00:08:33.595 --> 00:08:39.075 And actually, we've become more cynical as a population over the last fifty years, right? 00:08:39.075 --> 00:08:44.275 So in 1972, about half of Americans believed most people can be trusted. 00:08:44.574 --> 00:08:47.704 By 2018, that had fallen to a third of Americans, right? 00:08:47.704 --> 00:08:54.530 So we have cynical tendencies, I think, because we have what psychologists call negativity bias. 00:08:55.060 --> 00:09:01.660 That is, we pay more attention to threats than we do to opportunities or to beautiful things in the world. 00:09:01.660 --> 00:09:04.549 And that makes sense from a survival perspective, right? 00:09:04.710 --> 00:09:13.340 A hundred thousand years ago, the person who ignored a predator or a tsunami maybe wouldn't make it to pass on their genes. 00:09:13.340 --> 00:09:17.450 And the person who ignored the beauty of a sunset might be just fine, right? 00:09:17.460 --> 00:09:22.140 So, but that bias means that fighting cynicism is an uphill battle. 00:09:22.280 --> 00:09:24.739 But it's still a battle that we can fight and we can win. 00:09:24.750 --> 00:09:26.969 There's three steps that I suggest. 00:09:27.430 --> 00:09:29.119 The first is to think differently. 00:09:29.329 --> 00:09:32.149 So to acknowledge that we have negativity bias. 00:09:32.569 --> 00:09:39.350 And that might make us, as I was saying, too risk averse when it comes to trust and too negative in general about people. 00:09:39.380 --> 00:09:46.934 There's all sorts of evidence that people are more trustworthy, kinder, more compassionate than we realize. 00:09:47.575 --> 00:09:50.875 The average person underestimates the average person. 00:09:51.515 --> 00:09:55.855 So because of that, being skeptical about our cynicism can help. 00:09:56.075 --> 00:10:03.494 What I try to do when I find myself judging somebody, feeling suspicious, is to fact check my cynical beliefs. 00:10:03.545 --> 00:10:04.644 I say, well, wait a minute. 00:10:04.884 --> 00:10:06.024 Why do you think that? 00:10:06.375 --> 00:10:09.715 Why are you so sure that this person is going to betray you? 00:10:10.125 --> 00:10:14.694 Why are you so sure that what you're seeing in the news represents what people are really like? 00:10:15.045 --> 00:10:20.135 And that fact check can help me start in the journey of overcoming my own cynicism. 00:10:20.784 --> 00:10:25.444 Matt Abrahams: I think that self reflection, while hard, can be really helpful. 00:10:25.855 --> 00:10:35.125 We tend to seek out confirmatory experiences, which to me might be a bit of a challenge for this cynicism toolkit that you're providing. 00:10:35.235 --> 00:10:38.805 What advice do you have to broaden our worldview? 00:10:38.855 --> 00:10:42.494 Because it's very easy for me to say, oh see, that I was right, you know. 00:10:42.554 --> 00:10:44.844 Are there suggestions you have for managing that? 00:10:44.954 --> 00:10:45.875 Jamil Zaki: Absolutely. 00:10:45.975 --> 00:10:48.535 I think, first of all, I just want to co sign what you've said. 00:10:48.735 --> 00:10:52.514 It feels great to be right even if what you're right about feels terrible. 00:10:52.735 --> 00:10:59.515 A cynic might have a sort of bleak, bitter satisfaction when they see somebody act poorly. 00:10:59.525 --> 00:11:07.284 Because they say, aha, I've had their number all along, but we shouldn't be so ready to sit on our laurels as cynics, right? 00:11:07.305 --> 00:11:12.485 Instead, we might want to challenge ourselves, not just with what we think, but with what we do, right? 00:11:12.485 --> 00:11:17.705 We've talked about how we can be reflective and challenge our assumptions by fact checking them. 00:11:18.065 --> 00:11:22.055 I, as I said, I sometimes say, what evidence do you have to support this cynical idea? 00:11:22.335 --> 00:11:25.380 Oftentimes, my answer is, not much evidence at all. 00:11:25.810 --> 00:11:27.970 So the second step is to collect evidence. 00:11:28.630 --> 00:11:29.270 What does that mean? 00:11:29.280 --> 00:11:31.960 It means treat your life a little bit more like an experiment. 00:11:32.379 --> 00:11:39.679 If there is a person who you're considering trusting and you're sort of feeling yourself pulling away, maybe make the opposite choice. 00:11:40.399 --> 00:11:46.920 If you typically look at one news source because it confirms all of your expectations, try to check out a different one. 00:11:47.190 --> 00:11:49.140 Vary your experiences. 00:11:49.470 --> 00:11:50.860 Now, I want to be clear. 00:11:50.860 --> 00:11:53.319 I'm not telling people to put it all on the line. 00:11:53.340 --> 00:12:06.589 I'm not saying that you should send your bank information to a prince who's going to forward you fourteen million dollars or to an influencer who says that there's one weird trick that will give you passive income and clear up your skin at the same time, right? 00:12:06.740 --> 00:12:08.439 We don't need to be naive. 00:12:08.910 --> 00:12:13.568 We just need to be data driven, and when we are, pleasant surprises are everywhere. 00:12:13.568 --> 00:12:14.048 Matt Abrahams: I like that idea that it's more than just reflection and thinking, it's about the doing. 00:12:14.048 --> 00:12:14.099 In thinking about my own life, I know when something's going on that I am a bit cynical about. 00:12:14.099 --> 00:12:14.100 I'll seek 00:12:26.470 --> 00:12:28.920 others I know who will reinforce that cynicism. 00:12:28.920 --> 00:12:32.790 I have friends who will see the world the same way and we get together and rar together. 00:12:33.040 --> 00:12:39.730 But I also know there are times where I'm feeling cynical and I have some friends who are very optimistic and I'll seek them out just to get a difference of opinion. 00:12:39.730 --> 00:12:43.890 It's like being in a group and purposely having a devil's advocate to challenge you. 00:12:44.019 --> 00:12:47.230 It's not just what happens internally, it's also the people you surround yourself with. 00:12:47.495 --> 00:12:56.654 Jamil Zaki: Absolutely, we are fundamentally social creatures and the people you spend time with, choosing them is sort of like choosing who you will become. 00:12:57.004 --> 00:13:00.585 Because you're choosing your social environment and that environment shapes you, right? 00:13:00.645 --> 00:13:09.585 And I think that absolutely many of us crave confirmation of our negative assumptions and so we gravitate towards negative people. 00:13:10.115 --> 00:13:14.045 We also ourselves share a lot of negative information. 00:13:14.045 --> 00:13:18.695 There's a lot of temptation to go around giving life a one star review on Yelp. 00:13:18.845 --> 00:13:22.535 And that attracts a lot of attention on social media as well. 00:13:22.595 --> 00:13:28.265 Posting negatively gets you more clout, more, uh, notoriety than being positive. 00:13:28.475 --> 00:13:30.365 But this too is a trend we can fight. 00:13:30.635 --> 00:13:38.615 One by surrounding ourselves with people, as you said, this sort of team of rivals approach where you look for a challenge. 00:13:38.615 --> 00:13:50.405 But second, I also think that we can honor our influence over others and realize, you had asked earlier, is there something we can do to fight cynicism, not only in ourselves, but in the people we care about? 00:13:50.944 --> 00:13:53.874 One way to do that is through what I call positive gossip. 00:13:54.154 --> 00:13:58.195 We typically gossip most about the harm that people do. 00:13:58.584 --> 00:14:10.755 In my lab, we found that when we give people stories or show them examples of somebody acting selfishly, and then somebody acting generously, and we ask, which of these stories do you want to pass on to future participants? 00:14:11.325 --> 00:14:17.195 People are three times more likely to gossip about a selfish person than about a generous person. 00:14:17.535 --> 00:14:22.015 And again, there is a great reason for this from a survival perspective. 00:14:22.264 --> 00:14:24.904 We want to protect our communities from people who would hurt us. 00:14:25.184 --> 00:14:26.525 That's a beautiful instinct. 00:14:27.185 --> 00:14:35.975 But it doesn't always serve us, in fact, because we end up giving people an unnecessarily negative view of who's in the community. 00:14:36.125 --> 00:14:46.574 And so what I try to do in my life and what I encourage other people to do is to catch people in the act of kindness or of compassion or of open mindedness. 00:14:47.170 --> 00:14:50.460 And then talk about them, call them out for doing good things. 00:14:50.970 --> 00:14:52.760 Two things happen when you do that. 00:14:52.780 --> 00:14:56.550 The first is that you spread hopeful skepticism to the people in your lives. 00:14:57.250 --> 00:15:02.810 But the second is that you change yourself because of course, what we talk about becomes what we notice. 00:15:03.390 --> 00:15:10.130 And so a habit of speech around positive gossip turns into a habit of mind, which we could call positive noticing. 00:15:10.970 --> 00:15:18.149 Matt Abrahams: The notion of positive gossip and being strategic and very thoughtful about it, I think is a really important thing for us in our own lives. 00:15:18.150 --> 00:15:22.750 But I also think of within organizations and within other collectives, families, etcetera. 00:15:22.990 --> 00:15:24.230 I really appreciate that. 00:15:24.370 --> 00:15:26.990 You also study self fulfilling prophecies. 00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:36.680 Can you define what those are for us and perhaps give us an example or two of how we can leverage these to help us feel better and do better in the world? 00:15:36.940 --> 00:15:38.010 Jamil Zaki: It's a great question. 00:15:38.020 --> 00:15:43.720 And again, I think that a lot of us underestimate our power in the social world. 00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:46.089 My friend Vanessa Bohns studies this. 00:15:46.099 --> 00:15:54.020 She finds that much more than most people realize how we treat others changes who they become in our presence. 00:15:54.610 --> 00:16:00.780 And that, for cynics, I think leads to many toxic or sad self fulfilling prophecies. 00:16:00.970 --> 00:16:13.129 Cynics, for instance, are much more likely to micromanage, spy on other people, to threaten and browbeat them, to try to protect themselves from what they imagine is a selfish person on the other side of the interaction. 00:16:13.370 --> 00:16:14.059 Well, guess what? 00:16:14.409 --> 00:16:20.900 If you treat people that way, then they become more combative, aggressive, disrespectful, and selfish. 00:16:21.450 --> 00:16:24.600 And then the cynic says, aha, I was right all along. 00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:28.800 Matt Abrahams: And that's the self fulfilling nature of it is you've created the situation you expected. 00:16:28.800 --> 00:16:29.050 Yeah. 00:16:29.100 --> 00:16:29.890 Jamil Zaki: Exactly. 00:16:29.910 --> 00:16:30.910 That's exactly right. 00:16:31.230 --> 00:16:34.860 Now you asked not the gloomy version, but the brighter version. 00:16:35.039 --> 00:16:36.040 What can we do with it? 00:16:36.310 --> 00:16:41.640 And I would say that there are many cases where our instincts in an interaction is how can I protect myself? 00:16:42.215 --> 00:16:47.215 And that includes aggressive or even disrespectful action towards the other person. 00:16:47.525 --> 00:16:54.895 But watch out because if you focus too much on protecting yourself, you might damage the relationship and create that self fulfilling prophecy. 00:16:55.515 --> 00:17:06.425 Instead, we can remember that by acting positively, doing things like taking leaps of faith, trusting loudly, that those actions aren't just ways of showing who we want to be. 00:17:07.104 --> 00:17:10.414 They are also likely to bring out the best in the other person. 00:17:10.864 --> 00:17:20.765 This is what economists call earned trust, which is that when we treat somebody well, including treating them as though they are a trustworthy and kind person. 00:17:21.165 --> 00:17:30.585 We bring that side out of them people lower themselves to our expectations if we're cynical and they raise ourselves to our expectations if we are non cynical. 00:17:31.355 --> 00:17:36.244 Matt Abrahams: Using self fulfilling prophecy for good can have so many benefits and thank you for sharing. 00:17:36.715 --> 00:17:42.755 I first became aware of self fulfilling prophecies in my research on how to feel more confident in communication. 00:17:43.255 --> 00:17:52.815 And many of us set ourselves up for that gloomy doomy version where we see the one person who isn't paying attention and then say, oh, we're not doing a good job and therefore we end up doing a poor job. 00:17:53.045 --> 00:17:53.255 Jamil Zaki: Hmm. 00:17:53.445 --> 00:17:57.184 Matt Abrahams: And we can use that same self fulfilling prophecy mechanism for positive. 00:17:57.564 --> 00:18:00.424 Highlight the person who is engaged or think about the value. 00:18:00.425 --> 00:18:03.755 So I think self fulfilling prophecy is a tool we have in our toolkit. 00:18:04.125 --> 00:18:06.665 That many of us don't think of deploying to help us. 00:18:07.514 --> 00:18:09.755 Jamil, this has been a fantastic conversation. 00:18:09.755 --> 00:18:12.215 Before we end, I'd like to ask you three questions. 00:18:12.215 --> 00:18:13.455 One I create just for you. 00:18:13.695 --> 00:18:16.065 And two, I've asked everybody who's been on this podcast. 00:18:16.065 --> 00:18:16.655 Are you up for that? 00:18:16.725 --> 00:18:17.495 Jamil Zaki: Absolutely. 00:18:17.815 --> 00:18:22.314 Matt Abrahams: You have used just eloquent language and analogies. 00:18:22.324 --> 00:18:27.615 You've talked about toolkits, you've talked about being lawyers, you've talked about leaps of faith. 00:18:27.990 --> 00:18:32.780 How much time do you spend thinking about how you communicate these concepts? 00:18:32.780 --> 00:18:38.150 And what sort of drives that because you have such an eloquent way of helping us to understand. 00:18:38.650 --> 00:18:39.380 Is that conscious? 00:18:39.500 --> 00:18:40.790 What do you think about to do that? 00:18:40.790 --> 00:18:41.790 'Cause you do it so well. 00:18:42.080 --> 00:18:43.600 Jamil Zaki: That's very kind of you to say, Matt. 00:18:43.889 --> 00:18:49.880 A secret about me is that before I was ever a neuroscientist or psychologist, I dreamed of being a novelist. 00:18:50.350 --> 00:18:53.730 I love the written word and always have. 00:18:53.780 --> 00:18:56.210 And so turns of phrase matter to me. 00:18:56.219 --> 00:18:57.730 Metaphors matter to me. 00:18:58.074 --> 00:19:00.884 And the beauty of language matters to me. 00:19:00.884 --> 00:19:10.034 So when I write, do a lot of iteration and I look for linguistic moments that turns of phrase that feel resonant to me. 00:19:10.485 --> 00:19:15.665 But I also learn an enormous amount through dyadic conversation, right? 00:19:15.694 --> 00:19:20.074 I consider myself really a thinker on the page, but also a thinker in conversation. 00:19:20.194 --> 00:19:27.850 Oftentimes, in real time when talking to somebody, I'll come up with a way of describing something that I never would have if I wasn't with them, right? 00:19:27.850 --> 00:19:34.660 And being shaped by those conversations also helps me figure out what resonates with other people and what resonates with me. 00:19:35.399 --> 00:19:38.740 Matt Abrahams: I will absolutely read the novel you write when you take the time to do that. 00:19:39.050 --> 00:19:39.529 Thank you. 00:19:39.529 --> 00:19:42.520 And even in your description of what you do, you did so eloquently. 00:19:42.780 --> 00:19:55.455 A lot of us, I believe, in that conversation, in that dyadic exchange, a lot can be learned and just having a thought partner, maybe even if the person didn't know they were your thought partner, can be really helpful for those turns of phrase. 00:19:55.534 --> 00:19:55.784 Jamil Zaki: Yeah. 00:19:55.784 --> 00:20:01.425 You know, to build on that, I think a lot of us imagine thought to be something that occurs in our heads. 00:20:02.175 --> 00:20:07.454 I think thought happens in my hand when I'm writing and in the space between us when we speak. 00:20:07.944 --> 00:20:08.774 Matt Abrahams: I love that quote. 00:20:09.045 --> 00:20:11.425 Thought happens in the space between us. 00:20:11.665 --> 00:20:18.850 And I would actually suggest that many of the things you talk about, trust, empathy happens in that space between us, I like that. 00:20:19.790 --> 00:20:21.820 I'll be curious to get your answer to our second question. 00:20:22.220 --> 00:20:24.920 Who's a communicator that you admire and why? 00:20:25.650 --> 00:20:26.810 Jamil Zaki: Oh, there's so many. 00:20:26.869 --> 00:20:31.970 A person who immediately comes to mind for me is the psychologist, Dan Gilbert at Harvard. 00:20:32.029 --> 00:20:36.620 I was a longtime admirer of Dan's and I'm lucky to call him a friend now. 00:20:37.020 --> 00:20:43.960 Dan showed me what writing and speaking about the human mind could be, right? 00:20:43.960 --> 00:20:49.290 So I shared that I wanted to be a fiction writer and I always loved neuroscience and psychology. 00:20:49.290 --> 00:20:54.569 But one thing that I missed about it was the poetry of language and description. 00:20:54.909 --> 00:21:01.269 And Dan, more than almost anybody I've ever encountered, just naturally is able to access that. 00:21:01.379 --> 00:21:15.495 His way of thinking about even very esoteric pieces of social psychology is so intuitive and so natural that he makes these ideas come to life for anybody regardless of their background. 00:21:15.905 --> 00:21:17.015 Matt Abrahams: He is a great communicator. 00:21:17.015 --> 00:21:19.565 I'm a big fan of his written and spoken work. 00:21:20.435 --> 00:21:28.805 You remind all of us that we're not just translators for our material and our ideas, but we're also emotional conduits for it as well. 00:21:28.865 --> 00:21:34.895 Where the way we feel about it and what initiated our interest in it is something that's also important and he does a good job of it as you certainly do. 00:21:35.345 --> 00:21:36.155 Final question. 00:21:36.625 --> 00:21:41.365 What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? 00:21:42.085 --> 00:21:43.185 Jamil Zaki: I love this question. 00:21:43.435 --> 00:21:51.225 If I may, I want to talk about one type of communication that's been part of my lab's work recently, which is good disagreements. 00:21:52.134 --> 00:21:56.585 Disagreement, quite common, uh, in a lot of parts of our culture right now. 00:21:56.635 --> 00:22:02.625 And my lab and I have been really focused on, we bring people together to disagree about politics. 00:22:02.855 --> 00:22:05.980 And we ask ourselves, when do those conversations go well? 00:22:05.990 --> 00:22:07.880 What makes those disagreements useful? 00:22:07.880 --> 00:22:09.840 And there are three things that we see. 00:22:10.360 --> 00:22:13.800 The first is to agree about what we disagree about. 00:22:14.170 --> 00:22:24.639 Oftentimes, people bring so many assumptions to these charged, potentially threatening conversations that they never bother to figure out whether they have common ground. 00:22:25.020 --> 00:22:31.290 They imagine that the Venn diagram between their perspective and the other person's perspective is really just two circles. 00:22:31.570 --> 00:22:36.190 But if you actually were to measure these people's views, there'd be much more overlap. 00:22:36.490 --> 00:22:43.579 So good disagreement often entails actually figuring out what the disagreement is before jumping into it. 00:22:44.225 --> 00:22:50.135 The second piece that we find is that it's much more effective to share stories than to share opinions. 00:22:50.685 --> 00:22:56.604 People often feel attacked if you just tell them, no, you were wrong, these are the facts. 00:22:57.025 --> 00:23:02.234 They feel much more open if you say, well, tell me about how you started to feel this way. 00:23:02.254 --> 00:23:04.525 And let me share how I started to feel that way. 00:23:04.525 --> 00:23:09.805 That's a natural narrative form of communication that brings up trust. 00:23:10.195 --> 00:23:12.000 And empathy as well. 00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:15.360 And then the third piece is to be humble. 00:23:15.740 --> 00:23:22.390 I think a lot of us, especially in the context of disagreements, feel like we need to be confident to win. 00:23:22.740 --> 00:23:26.040 We're trying to battle this person to the ground. 00:23:26.040 --> 00:23:34.080 And it turns out that if we act that way and come into a disagreement that way, other people can tell and they don't react very well to it. 00:23:34.090 --> 00:23:35.889 That's a self fulfilling prophecy. 00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:44.240 If instead we enter a disagreement with the goal of accurately representing ourselves, but also learning from the other person. 00:23:44.540 --> 00:23:52.905 If we show that humility, if we admit when we're uncertain and ask questions of the other person, well, first of all, we actually do learn more from them. 00:23:53.305 --> 00:23:58.714 But second, that self fulfilling prophecy flips from something gloomy into something virtuous. 00:23:59.274 --> 00:24:03.634 That other person ends up listening to us more, opening up more. 00:24:04.055 --> 00:24:10.584 If you want somebody to pay attention to your perspective, one of the best things that you can do is show that you're paying attention to theirs first. 00:24:11.115 --> 00:24:16.345 Matt Abrahams: I am so glad that you are studying disagreement and good disagreement in our world today. 00:24:16.485 --> 00:24:18.095 It is such a big challenge. 00:24:18.155 --> 00:24:23.715 It's not surprising to me that you would end up studying that because I see it as sort of a crucible for all the things you're interested in. 00:24:24.205 --> 00:24:26.054 Cynicism and empathy and trust. 00:24:26.615 --> 00:24:31.785 The notion of figuring out what we agree on in our disagreement. 00:24:32.280 --> 00:24:36.240 The use of story, clearly something that's right in the bullseye of what we talk about. 00:24:36.880 --> 00:24:38.650 Jamil, thank you so much for your time. 00:24:39.490 --> 00:24:40.510 Super instructive. 00:24:40.590 --> 00:24:52.895 This notion of cynicism and how to bolster hopeful skepticism, the notion of trusting loudly, positive gossip, all of this is so helpful. 00:24:52.905 --> 00:24:55.225 Thank you for your time and best of luck on your new book. 00:24:55.355 --> 00:25:00.555 Jamil Zaki: Matt, this has been delightful and thank you for all you do to bring these great messages to so many people. 00:25:02.535 --> 00:25:06.735 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:25:07.360 --> 00:25:13.090 To learn more about how we create our social reality, please listen to Episode 84 with Brian Lowery. 00:25:13.439 --> 00:25:19.439 And to better understand connection and deepening relationships, check out Episode 128 with David Brooks. 00:25:20.159 --> 00:25:24.979 This episode was produced by Jenny Luna, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:27.330 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:25:27.709 --> 00:25:29.899 With thanks to Podium Podcast Company. 00:25:30.409 --> 00:25:33.850 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:25:34.090 --> 00:25:35.750 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:25:35.889 --> 00:25:45.479 Also follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram and check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter.