[00:00:00] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond

[00:00:13] Pia: and I am Pia Lee.

[00:00:15] Dan: And I think you are not only Pia Lee, but that Pia Lee is also in Melbourne. Am I right? Do you want

[00:00:20] Pia: I am, I am on, I'm on the 43rd floor recording this today of the Sofitel, looking out over the Melbourne landscape and, um, doing lots of work with very interesting organization, determining its vision and working with their top team. 

[00:00:36] Dan: So putting the dipstick into the corporate world, what's the state of teams at the moment? In 10 seconds?

[00:00:42] Pia: really interesting. I think that some teams are not really teams at all. They're groups of individuals, you know, that you, you got a bold bunch of rock stars and, and the chemistry isn't quite working because you can't make them a rockstar team. And I think that's, that's the challenge. I think we've got a post pandemic malaise and it's, it's taking a bit of time to catch up with us with all the things that are going on. And I think there's a lot of value of having a bit more love and connection and getting greater output from everybody working together. 

[00:01:14] Dan: Together being the key word. So, oh, excellent. Thank you for that. And so, so today Pia, we're talking about slightly different topic. We are talking about re-entry teams coming back to teams after an absence. And I think this has caused both of us to reflect on times when we've either taken time out or should have done. 

[00:01:30] Of course, it, it's a big old topic when, you know, when you think about women going off to give birth, having maternity leave now, paternity leave, grief, carers leave, there are many, many reasons why people step out of the workplace. And so it's a, it's a, it's a surprisingly relevant topic in a way.

[00:01:49] Pia: I mean, it's like, it's like the drum beat of life, isn't it? Birth deaths, marriages, divorces. It's like, you know, that happens through that track of the workspace. But, you know, I, I look at us and I don't think, you know, we both lost our parents. in our sort of 

[00:02:04] Dan: it's very careless, 

[00:02:06] Pia: you know, didn't, we couldn't find them. And um, but I, but I, I, I think I almost worked harder to get rounded cuz I didn't think I deserved to take any time off. And, and interesting, I dunno if that was denial or, maybe a sense of, almost like you, you weren't allowed to grieve because you were a grown up, you were in your, late forties, fifties, what wasn't meant to happen. And then actually you do change, and it's quite hard to come back or even to process it while you're even at work. It's, it's A hard thing to do. 

[00:02:38] Dan: It really is. And I think, and, and I think from my point of view, same thing, just right knuckle down to it. You're not supposed to make a big fuss about this, um, you know, being English. But I think the process of grieving then takes a whole lot longer because you are just back into work and it's full on. 

[00:02:53] So, and I think that idea of how you come back to teams changed, like that is a, just a, yeah. It'd be a fascinating topic today. So we're going to be talking to Serena Savini, who as we'll hear has had many experiences that have prompted her to think about this exact moment in, in people's lives, 

[00:03:13] Now, unfortunately, the audio quality of Serena's recording is not great, but it's worth hanging in there because there's some real gold in what she has to say. Let's go over and hear her now. 

[00:03:23] Serena, thank you so much for joining us on the show today.

[00:03:29] Serena: Thank you for inviting me.

[00:03:31] Dan: It's an absolute pleasure. It's an absolute pleasure. So, uh, we're talking to you, uh, in, in Milan, in Italy. Um, but we're gonna find out a little bit more about you using our conversation starter cards just to get us kicked off. So, Oh, here we go. This is a rather nice one. My perfect day

[00:03:48] Serena: Oh, it's, uh, yeah, it's a lovely question. So, um, to be honest, to stay with my family or with my partner to go in a lovely place like the sea side or on the mountains. And I'm lucky living in Italy is really easy to find a lovely 

[00:04:10] Dan: Both of those things. Yeah.

[00:04:12] Serena: and just relax read some books or just talk and, and eat I'm Italian, so eating is um 

[00:04:24] Dan: It's very important. And what, on that, uh, beach or that mountainside, what books would you be reading?

[00:04:30] Serena: So I'm really into poetry. I love to read poetry, out loud in the outside that 

[00:04:40] Dan: Sounds, sounds great. 

[00:04:42] Pia: Yeah. place a good.

[00:04:44] Serena: but but if you can read the, like, poetry dedicated to the sea on, on, on the beach, uh, I think it's 

[00:04:52] Dan: good, very good. I, I must say, just as a, as an aside, I, um, uh, I've started reading on holiday, books that were set in the place where I am, where I'm, and uh, it's, I read The Leopard in Sicily, for example, which was very, which was great, but, it yeah, it's, I can see that that sort of, the connection of place to the words very well. So I think that's, um, that's a lovely idea. Serena. I haven't done it with poetry, but, uh, but I can really get that, uh, wonderful. Thank you. Well, thank you for taking us through your conversation. Starter cards. Let's get us kicked.

[00:05:24] Pia: Yeah, tell us, tell us a little bit about who you are. Serena. Give us a little introduction.

[00:05:30] Serena: it's really a big question because I'm questioning that myself, in those days. Um, the professional elevator pitch, let's say it's, uh, I'm an HR professional, really into learning and development. I. Have, uh, more than 10 years of experience in, in companies, but it's just a professional one.

[00:05:55] If I am thinking about who am I? I would like to say that I'm, Really sensitive person that, had a lot of challenges in life since childhood because I was born with, uh, disability. And this disability shaped, uh, my life because I spent a lot of time when I was a child at the hospital. And when you are at the hospital, you really connect with other people on a deeper level, and you really can see that everyone can have personal struggles that they cannot share maybe in another way or in another space or environment.

[00:06:46] And so, when I started to work, in human resources, I noticed that, there is something that is unspoken in the workplace. That is the personal struggles. The personal also transformation that everyone is trying to do, uh, every day.

[00:07:07] And then, I, had a bad accident at work years ago. And that helped me in a strange way to reconnect to, myself and to what was important for me, also in a professional perspective. Because it was really hard for me to reshape my professional identity after my accident. Uh, and it was really hard to tackle, of course, the imposter syndrome, but also the connection with the work and we've, the work environment, the connection with the colleagues, because I was a different person. Uh, but I wanted to be the same professional, and it was like a stupid combination, . But uh, it took me sometimes to realize that if I was not the same person, uh, also my professional identity was shifting. And, And so, right now, I'm still, trying to find myself, I think. But I'm really passionate about, supporting people that are coming back to work because I know how challenging is to come back to work after a life changing experience.

[00:08:29] Pia: So, so help me understand Serena, how, how long, when you had the accident or how long were you away from work?

[00:08:37] Serena: I had the accident seven years ago and I had to do four surgeries in four years after 

[00:08:48] Pia: Right. That's big. 

[00:08:50] Serena: And the recovery was really also huge. So, In total during these four years. Uh, I was away for one year in total, but of course, uh, I was coming back and then go to the hospital and then back, and then to the hospital, et cetera. And for example, in Italy. if you do more than one year of Absence for illness. the employer can, fire you 

[00:09:17] Pia: So, so you feel, did you feel worried during that time that you, that you had that year off, did you feel like your work was, possibly going to threaten your unemployment? Or did you feel supported by your, by your company that you worked with?

[00:09:32] Serena: Uh, I didn't, uh, felt really supported. Also because I had something that it was hard to understand, why I needed so much time, uh, to recover because it, it was not like, I dunno, cancer or these kind of things that are things more, in the common, understanding of, okay, you need to take time off. I had something that was invisible, so it's really hard to say I'm really not feeling well, and I'm really dealing with, chronic pain and, lot of, uh, difficult stuff when if you can see me, you cannot tell, uh, that I, like, right now I'm in a in chronic pain, but you cannot see that by looking at me. 

[00:10:26] Dan: Yeah, it's, it's, so really Serena, I think that become better, haven't we? At see an understanding that people have challenges and ailments that are not visible mental health and so on. But, um, we're not there yet, are we? And interesting it might be that physical ailments that can't be seen are still a little bit missed, I'm wondering

[00:10:48] Serena: I think it's easier to not pay attention and to say, you look fine and or you are performing or you are, uh, you are showing up at work, so what is the, your problem? It's more difficult to pay attention and, uh, to really listen, to really see the, the other person and to be curious about what is going on because, there is, like a word behind the professional image that we want to project in the world. And it's so easy to say, oh, you are here today, so you need to do this, uh, Excel files. it's more difficult to say You are here, but are you really here? What is going on? How are you?

[00:11:45] Dan: So Serena, you mentioned that you, um, your company and actually the system more broadly wasn't hugely supportive. You've mentioned that you, yourself felt this guild. How were your team members through this time when you were, um, in and out, how it, how was the team itself that you were coming back to? 

[00:12:04] Serena: I was really, really lucky because I had a strong, uh, supportive supporting circle at work, and I didn't know. Death before my accident, I thought, okay, we, we are colleagues. But, when I had my accident, I received a lot of, uh, support, a lot of love, a lot of, please take care of yourself. Uh, better to be well than to come back, uh, sooner. And it was really nice to see that, the bound that you are creating in the workplace can become really, uh, strong and they're really true, also outside the, the work environment.

[00:12:54] Of course, uh, I had also people that were not supporting me in the workplace, I think it's, uh, again, it's, it's normal. But it was really important for me to have a team behind the scene that was rooting for me and that was, uh, really welcoming back when I went back to work. 

[00:13:19] Pia: Now that you are, gone through this experience and probably had a little bit of time to process through. What are you thinking about how other people may be experiencing this in the workplace and, what do you think are the needs of people who are away for a substantial period of time? 

[00:13:38] Serena: my advice is to not feel, uh, guilty, uh, or, uh, ashamed by that. and to really have the courage to talk about it. Um, because sometimes, we don't talk about what we are experiencing in the workplace, even with our colleagues and our colleagues, are, um, maybe not so sure if they can talk about it with us.

[00:14:09] And so there is this silence, this strange and awkward silence. in a moment where you maybe are, you are feeling alone, you are feeling a little bit lost, and you need support, and in a moment where other people are maybe struggling themselves to understand how can they welcome you or how can they support you? and so have the courage to speak up and to ask for help. Ask for support. It's really important, and it's something that I. Have not done

[00:14:49] Pia: So, yeah. Did you feel like you had to almost keep what you felt to yourself and, and not reach out to people?

[00:14:56] Serena: Yeah. Um, I went to the extreme on that because, for example, I was waiting for another surgery, but I was so afraid to say in the workplace, uh, I need to do another surgery, that I postpone the surgery multiple times, because I didn't want to say anything in the workplace to anyone because I didn't want to be again the sick person in the workplace that you cannot, uh, rely on. 

[00:15:32] And then of course it was so bad that I had to do the surgery anyway, so, And it was a big mistake. Uh, I can understand that now. Also because, again, I had people that were rooting for me that were supporting, and a lot of, things that I had in my head were not true. Uh, like for example, I felt really that I was not performing well. And, yes my manager was not happy with me. But uh other people, other colleagues were happy with what I was creating. So sometimes it's also important to gain different perspective on your work. Don't listen to the voice that are killing you, but listen to the voice that are loving you.

[00:16:27] Dan: that's quite profound actually, Serena, to think that you'd push back a surgery to avoid this sort of as your strange and awkward silence that you were living in, that you'd push it back to, to avoid though that any, any difficulty with the workplace, it's, it's worth. Uh, that's, that's really, um, of note, I think to people. These things are happening that you are, your sense of diligence and pride in your work and your desire to fit can even lead to that, which could presumably can lead to worse health outcomes just because of your relationship with work. 

[00:17:00] Serena: and I was thinking I was the only one doing that. But then talking with a lot of people, I realized that a lot of people are doing the same. It could be surgery, could be postponing, maternity because they, a lot of women are afraid that it is never the right time to have a maternity. A sabbatical is the same. So we are always putting our idea of work before our own needs. 

[00:17:34] Dan: It's a, to get, it gets, it can get outta balance Hey, Serena, do you, I'd like to just rewind a little bit to something you said about identity, in your introduction just. You talked about, you, you came back to work you know, with a different personal identity, but hoping to have the same professional identity. I can imagine that someone even coming, going on paternity leave, maternity leave, child, you know, anything or take the time out for grief, people come back change, don't they? Almost inherently. 

[00:18:02] Serena: So I was recognized in my company as a top performer at international level, and I was in a trajectory, of, uh, career growth when I had my accident. So when I came back, I was no longer a top performer. Both because I was not feeling well, but also because I was not longer recognized as a top performer by the company. And, I was not longer in a career trajectory because my company could not imagine a career trajectory for someone that was sick, let's say. But for me it

[00:18:41] was really difficult because I had to deal with pain. I had to deal with, a lot of, health issues. And of course, when you are dealing with these kind of things, you cannot pretend to work over time, every day, or to be on top of everything, every, every day. And you really need to find other priorities for yourself, and to adapt your work to who you are, uh, in that moment. And it was really difficult for me because I wanted to demonstrate, uh, and to show that I was the same performer, high performer, but I was not able to, to do that because I was not the same person and I didn't have the same energy and these kind of things. 

[00:19:36] And then I realized that my new personal identity was helping me to realize that I wanted to work in a different work environment. Meaning that I wanted to work in a, less toxic, work environment, uh, with a strong team around me. With stronger values, with a purpose linked to my work.

[00:20:04] So my career shift because of that, because I was able to understand that If I'm a flower in the desert, I could not pretend to be the best flower in the desert, because the environment is not supporting me. But I can find, a place in the world and a place in the work environment where I can bloom or blossom and I can be the flower that I am without feeling guilty or ashamed or not, uh, right, or. 

[00:20:43] But it was difficult for me to understand that. And it was also a journey to really find a place where I can, be myself, fully. with also my, my pain, uh, et cetera. So what I want to say is that, be gentle with yourself because it's a journey and maybe sometimes it's a difficult one. But it's important to continue to do the journey

[00:21:13] Dan: That's a wonderful little phrase, the flower that I am. I think we will take that away with us, Serena. Um, but I could really imagine this question of identity where someone goes away. And, and, and we see this quite a lot. I always thought when I used to go, when I was living abroad, you come back to the same old pub and everyone's exactly the same and you are different. You are different. You come back into the workplace, your personal identity's changed, your professional identity has. You, you try to retrieve probably your old professional identity. How do you support people as they return to the workplace to make the conscious choices to reflect and how, how do you, how do you support people to reentry, reenter successfully?

[00:21:54] Serena: For me, it's a team effort because, as you said, everything seemed the same, but actually everyone has changed somehow. So what if we use the occasion of welcoming back someone to do a group reflection about what happened in this nine month, two month, how are we changed? How is the company changed? And really, show to everyone that, the journey of life had an impact on everyone? Positive, negative, smaller, bigger. But we are in the same place here now, and we can share something, and we can recognize our journey far.

[00:22:44] Dan: That's so true. Not, not to see the me but actually view this as a team effort. Um, I, and I really love that, Serena, that is so true actually, if I, I think I've fell into that trap to be honest, which is that one person has stepped out, um, and they've had some different experiences and they have to rejoin. Actually, no, everyone is on an individual path as well. You know, you've got these individual identities bubbling underneath, all with different challenges, and actually just having these moments of, Right, we've all had things happen to us. What's, where are we all and how are we going to continue on this path together? I think that's, that's just such a powerful idea to remember. 

[00:23:21] It comes back to one of the things you said earlier that everyone has personal struggles, but they're reflected at work. Or triumphs. You know, something amazing could have happened to someone, but we've changed in that time.

[00:23:32] Pia: My last question to you is, so what, what's the future hold? 

[00:23:36] Serena: Right now, I'm not in, in the place where I, imagine to be 10 years ago. I'm really curious, about my journey and the continuation of my journey. I hope that 10 years from now there is more understanding in the workplaces about welcoming back employees, uh, work life balance, but in a deeper level. And to a create a workplace based on understanding instead of competition or something different. 

[00:24:13] Dan: Well, that's a, lovely hope for all of us, Serena. Very We Not Me moment. And Serena, I'm just going to ask you just to leave us with a final little tip. If someone is now listening to the podcast there maybe step to the workplace or they've had a big personal transition for themselves. Where do you think people should start to help themselves in as they move forward?

[00:24:35] Serena: The best advice that I can give to everyone is you are not alone. Maybe you are feeling alone, but you are not alone. So find your support circle. Find people that are there for you that, are open to listen to your story, that wants to support you. Because you are not alone. Maybe it's just one person. It doesn't matter. Start by, with the that person. But don't I isolate yourself. And there are a lot of groups on social media, on different things, so you can find really support now.

[00:25:17] And don't think that, I'm just coming back from maternity or I'm just coming back from losing someone. No, it's a life changing experience and you need to, take care of yourself.

[00:25:30] Dan: It's a great note to end on Serena. Thank you so much. And, um, I'm just going to quote you back. I, you know, you know the, the, the flower that I am, you said. All the very best as you, as you keep con sort of working out what that flower is and, uh, to, to really find a place where you can flourish. But I think what you've done is really taken your experiences, some of which clearly have been very difficult, and you've sort of somehow in your, in your factory of your mind, you've turned that into something positive for mankind. So, thank you so much and all the very best of your future work. 

[00:26:03] Serena: Thank you so much. 

[00:26:04] 

[00:26:04] Dan: You know, I must be turning into an old romantic in my, uh, later years,

[00:26:12] Pia: Better than an old fart.

[00:26:14] Dan: Oh my word. There's some of that going on too, but the flower that I am, I just re that really, uh, I love that. I love that. And it, I guess we're all trying to figure out what that is, but, It comes down to identity, doesn't it? Which is, which is quite big in my mind at the moment. Cause having read this Atomic Habits, you know, I thought, oh great, this is gonna help me to be, have it have habits and tick boxes and things. No, no, dammit. It comes down to identity in the end. So who are you? So I've been thinking a lot about that and I found that fascinating that, first of all that you leave work and you come back and try to pick up where you left off, but actually you've totally changed. and that needs to be recognized and dealt with consciously. 

[00:26:52] Pia: There's a different level of consciousness. I think we are aware of that We, we, I know post-Industrial Revolution for many years we thought that we were just workers. And now that we've talked about that before, you keep your personal away from work, and you just work for 40 years as the same person delivering whatever you need to deliver. Whereas I think this is much more humanistic. This is like, we're evolving. And so they're almost like the, the system of the individual and the system of the people that you come into, they change as well. And quite often when there's a big event, people don't, they dunno how to deal with that change. They know it's there. I think she called it what was a strange and awkward silence?

[00:27:31] Dan: Awkward silence. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, and I think that, um, that piece of recognizing, as she said at the top of the show, people have unspoken personal struggles. I think they have unspoken personal triumphs and all kinds of interesting stuff going on in their lives as 

[00:27:43] Pia: of unspoken stuff, full

[00:27:45] Dan: Yeah, loads of stuff, just stuff going on and. And that, that moment of actually the idea that you have left the team. The team is the same, you've got to rejoin it. No, actually the team has changed too. You know, that Chinese proverb of a man cannot step in the same river twice because the river has changed and the man has changed. And the, you think it's, it's a little bit like that. It's not just you that's changed actually, that team has changed. So actually let's talk about it. What's happening for all of us at the moment? Because it then changes it from there's a monolithic team here and you've got to rejoin it to, no, we've all had experiences that have changed us. How are we gonna go on together? I, that, that's, um, that was such a smart and pragmatic way of, way of looking at it.

[00:28:25] Pia: And yet sometimes we find it very difficult, you know, to broach the subject of that when someone, even when they come back from maternity leave, you are ex. Women have completely changed. They always think they're not going to be changed, and it'll just be six months and then

[00:28:40] Dan: And you tried to pick up where you left off and maybe you are part-time, so Oh, that's the difference. No, it's not, it's not. You've, you've really changed, and, um, yeah. Fascinating that in that, as you said, in that sort of self looking at those dimensions of self team and system, the system didn't work that well for Serena. You know, the legal system and the, and the organization. It was the team where it really worked that she had a support network. And, uh, yeah, I thought that quota, my company could not imagine a career, trajectory for someone who is sick. You know, sometimes the system does let us down, so it's best to pull those people around us.

[00:29:14] Pia: Yeah, I think that's a really disappointing statement because again, that. Sort of assumes that you are just there to deliver, not you're not having a life experience and how to work with it and to support that. And I don't think that's for all, definitely for all organizations. And I think we've moved on a long way. But sometimes, and particularly when you sort of see a lot of the layoffs that are going on, the restructures that are going on at the moment, the price of the human employee that was supposedly meant to value so much seems very low.

[00:29:44] Dan: Yeah. I, I think a lot of, a lot of lip services being paid to that. And also it's worth recognizing attention that we have, we do need to be productive at work. but that is gotta bring all of these things. Yeah. Being paid, you've got to deliver, um, and also you've got a life and you need to be supported through these tough times. All of those things need to be brought into the light instead of being dealt within the background. I think. And some of Serena's advice would really help.

[00:30:08] Pia: Fascinating. Good topic. 

[00:30:10] Dan: Really good topic. Really good topic. It's a big old thing and I know a lot of people will be, uh, will be struggling with the same thing. So, um, yeah, wonderful topic. But that is it for this episode. You can find show notes and resources at squadify.net. Just click on the We Not Me podcast link. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. If you'd like to contribute to the show, just email us at wenotmepod@gmail.com. We Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman of Origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.

[00:30:41] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.