[00:00:00] Dan: hello and welcome back to We Not Be the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.

[00:00:13] Pia: And I am Pia Lee.

[00:00:15] Dan: I think you might be cooking a little bit in Australia, aren't you at the

[00:00:18] Pia: you know? not really where I'm at, but uh, Sydney is cooking. It's 40 degrees plus, and, and here we have it in the, in the sort of, you know, the chronological disaster stakes. We've gone from, bushfires to pandemic to flood. back to bushfires. 

[00:00:37] Dan: I think, um, swarm of Locus is next.

[00:00:40] Pia: it is

[00:00:41] Dan: Well, joking, joking aside, this is these turbulent times.

[00:00:45] Pia: it is, it's quite wearing. I, and I feel, really feel that for, um, for individuals. You know, it's just another thing. I think mercifully, it's a reasonably small area, but it's just like nature rearing its head again to say I'm here. 

[00:00:59] Dan: Yeah, I'm here. Stop messing with it. So, um, yes, interesting. Here we are having a final cold snap frost on the car today. And, um, we're thinking about beautiful sunshine. So I think it's, we are moving into spring. 

[00:01:11] Pia: Do you still use a, a CD to wipe the ice off your, off your windows? Because that shows you, when I left England, 

[00:01:20] Dan: Yeah, it was sort of first a cassette case and then you graduate to the CD case. Yeah. Uh, we've actually now grown up and we've actually got a proper scraper thing, but it 

[00:01:29] Pia: Oh, that's so middle-aged 

[00:01:31] Dan: I know it is so middle-aged. I know it's got a little glove on the outside, so your little middle-aged hand doesn't get.

[00:01:38] Pia: No, I see. See, the Eurythmics was my go-to CD to, to clean Annie 

[00:01:44] Dan: best scraper was it? 

[00:01:45] Pia: She seriously, she just smiled at me as she went through the.

[00:01:48] Dan: Well, she can clear ice off my windscreen anytime she likes some. It's all I'm saying. She's lovely. Okay, so, um, before we get even more inappropriate, um, let us move into this episode, which, um, is all about fit. We've had a listener, questions. Stuart Dalziel, who was actually a Guest on the show a couple of seasons ago, wrote in to ask about fit. And we'll hear that question in a few minutes. But it reminded me of a. My last interview joining Johnson and Johnson actually, and it was a really nice company, but it was orthopedics. And surgeons in orthopedics are, you know, used to be very rugby playing types. And so orthopedics companies were sort of quite latty, um, sort of rugby playing, really sort of collegiate sort of places. And I was in my final interview, big panel of people, which I now realize was very homogeneous, I have to say. But the, but the sort of the final question was, So Dan, you know, you've got all these A levels, you've got this engineering degree, you know, basically, are you gonna be too bookish to come down the pub with us and have a good time? And so I know it's hilarious to think about me now. I mean, Yeah. Anyway, um, but um, they said, so, you know, for example, what great, what degree, what, what did you get in your degree? And I said, well, I've got good news for you. I've got a third. And they'll go, oh, fantastic, fantastic. And 

[00:03:07] Pia: ripple of applause

[00:03:08] Dan: If I'd said I got it first, there was no way I'd have got that job. But the third just got me in and, and that was the fit question. That was, you know, I didn't go to university to just study and get my head down. I'd obviously had a good time, actually, to be honest. I was just not clever enough. But they didn't know that. So the. Exactly, exactly. They didn't know. So, um, anyway, it made me think of this, this is, this fit question made me think of that.

[00:03:31] Dan: So, um, today we've invited Marsha Ramroop back on the show who was, who gave us a fantastic rundown on inclusion in the last season just to ask her this question about fit. So let us whizz over and, um, hear the question and, uh, have another chat with Marsha. 

[00:03:51] Dan: Hello, Marsha again and welcome back to the show. It's lovely to have you.

[00:03:55] Marsha: to be here. Thanks for asking me. I must have done something right last time. 

[00:03:59] Dan: You must have done, you must have done. No, definitely. Definitely. So, Stuart wrote to us, and if you have a question for us, you can just email us at wenotmepod@gmail.com. But what Stuart said was this, and this is our question for you, Marsha, as well. So, hey, Dan and Pierre, loving the shows. I wonder if you could cover the topic of fit. In my work as a coach, I'm encountering numerous issues around a lack of good fit between businesses and new recruits. Are we getting worse at getting this right? Is the more complex and changing world, making it harder to get the right fit between business and candidate? And is the old recruitment model no longer fit for purpose?

[00:04:36] Dan: Instead of focusing on candidate experience and skills, do we need to be focusing more on values and what a candidate looks for? And equally, how can a candidate do a better job of evaluating their values, truly fit with a potential? Finally expected values of autonomy seems to be a pinch point. In many cases, senior people are expecting more autonomy that is actually given. I'd love to hear you cover this sometime.

[00:05:02] Dan: So here we are covering it. So they are Marshall, I think there's a couple of points in there. There's that sort of top end of town. Um, then that second one about autonomy. Maybe we could do that sort of more general question first. What, what springs to 

[00:05:13] Marsha: Well, alarm bells are going, wait, wait, wait. Uh, because actually, uh, when, when we hear the term, um, culture fit, this is completely an utterly soaked, it's all the way permeated through with bias. Uh, so we need to, uh, short answer is we need to stop thinking about culture fit and start thinking about culture add. And ultimately what this comes down to is, Uh, when we talk about culture fit, that is usually hiring people that will somehow, you know, automatically magically fit into a company's culture. And the, and, you know, you, you talk about cohesive teams and teams that work all the time and that, you know, works in theory. But what you are really doing then is hiring, uh, for a homogenous team.

[00:06:13] Marsha: And I think we, we recognize that teams that are, uh, effective, if they're diverse are ones that are also inclusive. So they have to create a culture of inclusion that requires lots of different ways of doing things, backgrounds, perspectives, values, and so the, the problem with hiring for culture fit is that you end up hiring the same kind of person over and over again. And that's fine. If you wanna do that, that's fine. Go ahead and have your homogenous team over there and you will be very effective and you will get stuff done. But you are in danger of group think. You are in danger of not innovating. You are in danger of not actually moving forward with the world, and you'll fall behind essentially, and no good business wants to fall behind. So the better thing to do when all the research shows that, um, having a diverse and inclusive culture, diverse team, plus an inclusive culture will be far better.

[00:07:20] Marsha: So, um, when you're hiring for culture fit, things like confirmation bias, affinity bias, all those biases about, well, this feels comfortable to me. I want, I'll happily go to the pub with, you might have heard that one. I'll happily go to the pub with this person. All of those things play out when you're talking about culture fit.

[00:07:41] Dan: Yeah. No, absolutely. Well, actually it did remind me, Marsha, uh, on the, when you, when we talked last time, I have actually had several conversations since we talked, and I've appeared incredibly intelligent just by repeating what you said, um, which was about these three grades of team, which was, the best team is a diverse of inclusive team. The second best team is a, is a homogenous team. But the worst team is an, is a diverse, non-inclusive team. So it, this question reminded me of that, that if you. Is that right? If you, if you hire for, if you hire without fit, but don't do anything to be inclusive, you,

[00:08:17] Marsha: Yeah, absolutely screwed. 

[00:08:18] Marsha: And not only are you absolutely screwed, uh, but that person that brought in like all with all that, And they come in think yes. You know, when you start a new job, it's all about, oh, you know, it's that wonderful honeymoon period that you have where you know that person feels welcomed and, you know, everyone enjoys having the new person, the one that novelty of having a new person in the team. Then they start to raise the issues. Bring their different perspectives and they start to point out all the way things can be done differently and they push for accountability.

[00:08:56] Marsha: And that's when things start to go wrong, not just for the team, but for that individual as well, especially if it really, that individual is an individual in that they're just that one person that has been brought in to answer the change that you want to bring about. Well, it doesn't quite work like that. And I might have, um, said this previously, the culture of any organization is shaped by the worst behaviors leaders are willing to tolerate. That's from, uh, a book called School Culture Rewired by Gruenert and Whitaker.

[00:09:35] Marsha: So if we're talking about culture fit and culture, uh, ad well, if you're going for culture ad, but then you are not willing to embrace the new different perspectives, uh, you could create por cultures amongst the team, people getting ostracized, uh, treated badly and so on. And so, uh, what you really need to do is, uh, as leaders in an organization, which are shaping the culture, is then to demonstrate the best behaviors.

[00:10:10] Marsha: So that I, I believe if the culture of any organization is shaped by the worst behaviors leaders are willing to tolerate, then uh, the culture of any organization can be shaped by the best behaviors leaders are willing to demonstrate. And those best behaviors of course, I always talk about cultural. Which is the capability to work and relate effectively across difference. That is what you need.

[00:10:32] Marsha: If you want, if you want to improve the culture of your organization. It's not about fit, it's about ad, but then making sure that that culture is fit for anyone coming in to then, you know, raise their concerns and to shape that difference that you want. Because just, and the other thing to bear in mind, of course, is just because someone might look different doesn't mean they're gonna think differently as well. So there's lots of different things to think about, but um, yeah, that's just a throw some oil on the fire.

[00:11:05] Dan: Yeah, definitely.

[00:11:06] Pia: I think well, like lots of oil. That's great. And I think too, the other thing is we should, I, I think people listening to this will potentially be managers who are hiring, who are thinking about their teams, um, and are in that very real position. And what's actually quite provoking about what you talk about is it's our bias as that team leader, as that manager that shapes the whole thing. You are part of the system. So if you've got a bias towards what makes you feel comfortable by having the type of person in, and that may not be dive, you're not, you're not embracing diversity, you're just doing what's comfortable and works for you. it, You have to be quite brave to, to say, do you know what I, what's gonna be the best thing here? And how are we going to do this rather than what's gonna make my life? and I'm not sure that we actually even are aware that that's the choice.

[00:12:05] Marsha: Yeah. And you know, I think part of that is dad's culture being quite hard to define sometimes. You know, when you, we, we, when we talk about organizational culture, it's this vague thing, what, you know, the way we do things around here. There's this, um, great graphic that I tend to use in my presentations about the, the, um, organizational culture iceberg. And above the water, you've got the things that, the, the way we say we get things done. So, you know, there's policies, there's procedures, the values are up on the website. Uh, it's all very clear. It's all very. Obvious, the way that our culture is, is put together.

[00:12:41] Marsha: But below the surface is the way we really get things done. So those unwritten rules, the assumptions, you know, those, those shared perspectives, shared stories. And um, you can't always. You know, define that clearly. And so, uh, one of the things that, you know, cultural intelligence does it, it helps us describe some of those things below the water, and really importantly, encourages us to put in procedures to mitigate the bias that could come out of those perceptions and assumptions and stories and so on, uh, because it really is about that clarity.

[00:13:20] Marsha: So, uh, part of the question was, um, you know, should we be moving towards looking at hiring people for their values? Well, again, because, um, one of the things is that when you, 

[00:13:36] Marsha: yeah, I think essentially, You know, values, they're, they're, they're very personal and people can, and, and bring, bring their values and, and so on to work. And, and, and that's very useful. But ultimately we need to have very clear procedures around, uh, describing skills, describing abilities, describing experience, and capability as well. So the, the ability to improve and to work and transfer skills rather than necessarily, you know, values. And something that, that, again, is very subjective, whether someone's values are gonna fit into an organization or not.

[00:14:21] Marsha: So it's all about making it as objective as possible. This is the role, these are the things that. Someone to do in that role? Can you do those things? Great. Okay. Now you are this person who comes with all these additional things. Your background, your perceptions, your values, your beliefs, all these things that make us human. This human now is going to be working amongst all these other humans. How do we ensure that not only is everyone getting their, their jobs done, but of course we get them done more effectively. If, if we able to respect each other and work politely with each other and, and even have a laugh, we know that productivity is good. That is, that is something different that we don't recruit for. We, we recruit around those, those objective things, but there's something wider piece of HR which is about that culture and how do you create that is through the leadership is through having cultural intelligence. It's about making sure that the values of an organization and the values of an individual can come together to create a third way that will drive results. That's an optimal way where everybody has to be culturally intelligent. Not just the organization, but individuals coming in as well.

[00:15:47] Dan: If we think about Stuart, talk quite a bit about the recruiting process. What else can people, I was thinking about these mitigating processes. What else can organizations do to. Really be aware and do something about that.

[00:15:59] Marsha: so much. I mean, one of the the things is that frequently, bizarrely actually, when we hire, uh, a lot of recruitment systems, we try to get it over and done with this as quickly as possible. Cost inconvenience, number one thing we need to think about when we're hiring, which is bizarre only because it's one of the most expensive things you can do long term is to, to hire someone. Then you pay them and things work or they don't work. And if they don't work, then you are still paying them and you're trying to figure out a way to work together and it's causing other problems.

[00:16:36] Marsha: So actually, if we were to invest properly, not only money, but time in doing these and having these processes really clearly set out, um, then it would save organizations in the long term because of course, then going back to market because people leave or because you have to fire them or because you have to go through some grievance process, they all of these things, like why wouldn't you want to try to avoid them in the first place right? So there's a really great book, Ashley. I've got it here. it's, uh, it's called Racism at Work. 

[00:17:11] Dan: Racism at work, a How to Guide 

[00:17:15] Marsha: Yes, that's what it's, it's the danger of indifference and it's written by a guy called, uh, Pearn Kandola. He's a business psychologist and he talks about how do we, you know, recruit well. And, um, the fact that actually we tend to have this, uh, priority where the first thing we think about is cost and convenience, when actually what we really should be thinking about is the, the skills and abilities.

[00:17:42] Marsha: So when talk about discrimination, disrespect, it's actually in the real sense of recognition and understanding of the difference between one thing and another. You know, we need to clearly be clear as to what we are looking for in a role, and then look at the, you know, the validity and the reliability and the robustness of the process itself, whether it's legal and fair, then looking at convenience and practicality, cost, development time, uh, getting feedback from applicants. And then when all of the process is over evaluating it to make sure, actually is there any way we could have improved it? You know, it's anything that we could have done differently?

[00:18:21] Marsha: Uh, but what we tend to do is focus on cost, convenience, information, throw it out there, see who comes back to us. Best fit for organization. You know, we don't want to break the law, you know, it's, and then things just get, you know, and then we don't even bother to evaluate or ask applicants for their feedback.

[00:18:40] Marsha: So, um, there is completely different way of, of, of, of looking at how, how we do these things, but with the first thing really being how do we fulfill the capabilities, ability, skills and experience that we need for this role, and the human attached to all of that is a different piece of work.

[00:19:00] Pia: I think we've all been in that situation where we've rethought of an imaginary hire that will come in like an like sort of act of wizardry. And you know, and cast their spell across the team that is not functioning in the way that you would like them to or needs a little extra dose or something in order to achieve that.

[00:19:22] Dan: This person will both incredibly sort of innovative and driving forward doing something different while also being very good at working with the team and bringing everyone around them. They, they have these mythical skills, don't

[00:19:34] Marsha: Well, you've just described me there, Dan

[00:19:35] Dan: And of course I knew there was, I knew I was, think of someone

[00:19:40] Pia: And again, that's that bit sort of, um, our, our, our bias is we want that person to fix it. And the team doesn't really necessarily, Want to be fixed. So I think from a team perspective, we've often not had the conversation as a team to take ownership of what's going on, to really understand it and to to work together to it. And we bring somebody in as the fixer. And nobody likes that. Nobody likes that feeling of that person.

[00:20:09] Pia: And I mean, there are some professional individuals who make a career out of being these fixers. And they are deposited as, as catalysts or detonators into teams and organizations. So that's, but for, for most of us, there's a human need to be part of something. For both the team themselves to feel part of something together and the person being in it. 

[00:20:37] Marsha: I mean, I, I, I agree to with you to some extent there, Pierre, but I will also challenge you if I may, 

[00:20:44] Pia: 100% 

[00:20:46] Marsha: uh, There, there are people who, who, who want to fit into a team when they, when they come along and, and go into work and want to feel like they, you know, they're part of something, but there are also people who are quite happy to come into work and to do their work and be productive and be perfectly pleasant and work, you know, uh, professionally with, with everyone. And then, um, and then go home. And, um, there are those in teams who find that very disconcerting, because they think they should be part of this group and be part of the gang and part of the, dare I say it, um, you know, should never ever be used in business context, family, and so, this is where I kind of, again, if I may do my little alarm clason sound, um, 

[00:21:38] Marsha: that act ,that's, that's all I'm allowed.

[00:21:42] Marsha: There is this idea of belonging. You know, we, we need to, we need to belong somehow. And this idea of culture fit is about creating belonging. Well, this is where I'm, I'm very, very worried when people talk about belonging. I think we should be dropping. The belonging word from the conversation. Um, because, you know, culture fit is all wrapped up in this idea, isn't it? Can you, can you belong now?

[00:22:10] Marsha: Um, just to ha reach up again to my bookshelf, this book's called Reinventing Organizations. It's, um, been translated from French. Um, Frederic Laloux. And he raises a caution that the emphasis on belonging to an organization can suggest that whole person's life should revolve around work socially, financially, environmentally, uh, meaning an individual is psychologically trapped within the workplace. You know, you lose your job, you lose your life. And, um, there's some organization that made belonging and that culture fit so essential. They've designed it so people don't ever need to go home. You know, those play spaces, kitchens, like even massages at your desk and um, you know, that's great, but you expend all your energy then emotional, social in work and that that's gonna result in burnout actually.

[00:23:06] Marsha: So I think that if organizations are framing their ethos around belonging, I think that isn't really for an organization to decide. I think it's up to an individual whether they want to belong at work or not. Because again, the word belonging, it comes with that sense of ownership too. like, oh, this pen. It belongs to me. In relationships, you know, we belong together or systems, they belong in jail. But I think really, really disturbing in an organizational context. This is historical connection to slavery where the enslaved individuals belong to their masters. So I think we have to be really, really careful when we talk about belonging in organizational settings and say, no, what we want to do is create a culture of inclusion where if you want to belong at work you can. If you don't, that's fine. We value you because you are going to bring this role and you're gonna fulfill the skills, abilities, capabilities, and experience we need. And then as humans together, we are going to work together well to create an organization that is driven by results.

[00:24:14] Dan: That's really powerful, marsha. The penny has finally dropped. You've probably talked about this before, but saying you should belong is a bias, isn't it? It that I'm going to exclude you if you don't want to belong, and I might not want to. I think that's, um, that's, that's powerful stuff. You're allowed another claxon and noise at

[00:24:33] Dan: some point for that. You get a you bonus. bonus card bonus. claxon and CL for that. Excellent point. Um, Marsha, I'm gonna ask a really naive question now. I'm sure people listening to the show might be thinking, yeah, okay, that sounds all great, but I'm working with someone, and that guy is a pain in the ass. I, I'm trying to be diverse. I'm trying to listen to what he has to say, but honestly, he's just what my mother-in-law would call Awkward Squad.

[00:24:59] Marsha: Yeah, look, so sometimes differences aren't always down to culture. Sometimes they're down to personality. And, uh, you know, if someone's being a knob head, you know, there's no, no amount of cultural intelligence that's gonna help you. Um, all.

[00:25:15] Pia: Well, thanks. We should just end right there.

[00:25:20] Marsha: So really importantly, um, know how to take care of yourself when you are having to deal with these individuals. And it's about stepping away when you need to step away. If you can't step away, you have to deal with these individuals, all, you have to go through the whole, you know, having, um, those difficult conversations, you know, describe their behavior, um, outline the impact, talk about how it's made you feel, and and, and how you want things done differently in future and just go through those processes and, and the internal HR processes if this person's being particularly difficult, if you can't deal with things in an objective way.

[00:25:57] Marsha: Um, if there is bias at play, again, you know, all, all you can, all you can do is do what you can do, control what you can control, and behave in a way that is right for you. And always aware that I feel like I would've reached across and get another book. At the moment, I, I think, did I, did I not do this? Did I, did I do that Al Capone last time?

[00:26:19] Dan: Uh, you did, you did feel, feel free to 

[00:26:21] Marsha: Shall I brush you up on our capone again? So, uh, this is from Dale Carnegie, how To Win Friends and Influence People. And uh, it was written in 1936. So the language is very gendered, but also because it was written in 1936, uh, Dale Carnegie's frame of References, Al Capone, the American Gangster, and he talks about when you talk about, well, how do you deal with difficult people or so on, this is what he says about it.

[00:26:47] Marsha: He says, Suppose you had Al Capone's environment and experiences. You will then be precisely what he was and where he was, but is those things and only those things that made him what he was. You deserve very little credit for being what you are. And remember the people who come to you irritated, bigoted, unreasoning deserve very little discredit for being what they are. Feel sorry for the poor. Pity them. Sympathize with them. Say to yourself there, but for the grace of God go I.

[00:27:25] Dan: I too could be a knob head. Exactly. Just to, just to summarize, um, a slightly prosaic way, um, one, thank you for taking us back that Marsha, it's, it's, it's a profound truth. Now, I'm gonna just a, just ask you just in the final few minutes, just, uh, there was a second part to Stewart's question, which is about, he observed the demand for the, the desire for autonomy, let's put it that way, versus the autonomy that's given.

[00:27:48] Marsha: Yeah. For me, I think, you know, especially when it comes to leadership and executives, um, there is a fallacy that as you as, uh, I was saying before that, as you climb up that greasy pole to leadership and, uh, you, um, you know, somehow get, getting to get in the room. You finally got in the room and you think that you are going to be freer to do as you wish and to lead as you can, but you are always accountable to someone, especially, you know, the money.

[00:28:20] Marsha: So, uh, especially if you're working for an organization where the money is coming from particular source or, you know, you, you've got a board of directors, uh, sh uh, shareholders, you know, in those circumstances, you know, you're accountable to the money. If you're working for a charity or not-for-profit, you are, you know, you've got your fundraisers and also, you know, the, the, the outcomes of, of the organization, where are you going to, to, to, to put your efforts? There's always someone you're accountable to. Unless like me, you are sole trader , you can do what the hell you want.

[00:28:56] Marsha: Um, but you know, I think there is a sense that you do, you do have accountabilities and it's not about, at that point, it's not necessarily about the freedom. It's about how you lead others to be their best. And, uh, to, to fulfill that, the, the organizational values and outcomes and services and products. So it's probably an opportunity to reframe what people really think should happen when they get into those positions.

[00:29:24] Pia: I certainly think that, um, we have a misguided view that, um, senior leaders have a broader ability to make more decisions, where in actual fact it's more complex at the top. So there's a, there's a range of complexity, both strategic and politic. Impede senior leader's decision, and you don't know it until you get to it.

[00:29:50] Pia: And I, I think sometimes there's a little bit to like how you go through the Earth's atmosphere when you're going up that greasy pole and you are, and you are in more a team leader, more functional role. You have to, in order to get through to that executive level, that's, that's, you nearly burn up at that point, where you've got these perceptions that you think it's going to, woo-hoo, I'm gonna become a leader. It's gonna be much simpler. And it's so not. It's much more complex. You've got much greater number of things to consider when you're making decisions. Your bottom is on the line for those decisions, and you've got compliance breathing down your neck in a number of different things.

[00:30:32] Pia: So it's sort of a little bit like, ooh, a big brusher reality. And quite often some people, to continue another analogy, they pull the rip cord and they get out of the corporate world at that point because it's, it's not what they thought it was. But there's a bit where I think there's a bit of learning to be done about how to manage it, in my humble view.

[00:30:54] Marsha: yeah, I think that autonomy idea is, is naive, dare I say it.

[00:30:58] Dan: And, and I guess Marsha, it's I guess something else that needs a mitigating process around it. And, and I, I, there is that piece isn't there when you are recruiting, the company's showing its best face. Look, we're amazing. Look how fantastic we are. And the other, per the person is saying, yes, I am faultless and, and amazing. And they, and they sort of, They sort of somehow get married and then Oh, oh, you know, like we were talking about earlier, Pete, you can't fill a dishwasher properly or worse, you know, it's sort of, it, it's actually worth saying, hold on. It's sort of a little bit of a prenup to say, look, you want autonomy, you want to be bold. Let me talk about the mitigating process, I guess is let's, let's just, let's talk about genuinely how much autonomy you're gonna have and what your, what is going to contain you, honestly, and see if that's something that's still, you are still interested in, rather than saying, oh, you're gonna have, yeah, do what? Just come in here and change everything. Uh, I guess it sounds like a sort of bit of realism during recruitment would wouldn't go amiss here. 

[00:31:59] Marsha: Yeah, I would absolutely agree with that. Totally. You're both right.

[00:32:04] Pia: Well, that's unusual. I thought we better, we better end it there then.

[00:32:08] Marsha: Dad's looking really confused. I can't believe you said that. I can't believe you said I was right. 

[00:32:15] Dan: No, sorry. I missed all that because Siri, suddenly decided to talk to me, so the sound went off while Siri. Talk to me about something.

[00:32:23] Pia: Siri was just ringing the recruiter, Dan

[00:32:25] Dan: for goodness sake, I'm sorry. I feel I've, I've not only missed a great moment cuz I could see from the expression of her face, that was awesome, but I feel like I actually might have done something Can I, can I, 

[00:32:37] Marsha: It's like a classic moment.

[00:32:40] Dan: it's never happened before and bloody Siri was talked over it. So 

[00:32:45] Marsha: it.

[00:32:45] Pia: it's probably Stewart trying to get into the call.

[00:32:50] Dan: I'll ask another question anyway. So yes. Brilliant, brilliant point to coast. Thank you, Stuart. Uh, thank you me for being right about something. I've no idea what it was. Um, but more, more to the point. Marsha, thank you for joining us and sharing your wisdom and wit and, uh, you have a Clarkson noise in, in the bag for next time, so, um, all is well. 

[00:33:09] Marsha: you. I'll keep holding that one. 

[00:33:14] Dan: Well, I love the fact that after all of Marsha's, uh, research and practice in this area, her quote of, if someone's a knob head, no amount of cultural intelligence is going to help you. That made me chuckle.

[00:33:29] Pia: and I don't quite sure how you get defined, uh, as the said knob head, but I think there is a bit where. there are certain things that you do that just rule you onto the diversity index just by the very

[00:33:42] Dan: I think so. It's interesting. I think that's probably another dimension. Yeah. 

[00:33:45] Pia: But I loved how she talked about the difference between culture fit and culture ad and how culture fit is much more about your own bias. You're fitting into what I perceive to. Right, which is your panel. So that there, they were, the, the rugby boys looking for, you know, they didn't want a, a dull academic, they wanted something lively and fun. So, and I don't know quite how a third in a degree equates to that, but they made an assumption

[00:34:18] Dan: And it was actually weirdly, that assumption that I was out drinking with the lads. No, I, I, I, I just couldn't do the engineering very well. But anyway, it got me through. It got me through. But yeah, and I've, that was a fascinating point for me about, on the same, in the same vein about belonging. There's a lot of talk on among the LinkedInerati about, you know, diversity is, Being invited to the dance, inclusion is being allowed to, I can't remember what the whole thing is, but then belonging is the f is the ultimate stage. So, uh, that's quite a contentious view, uh, an unusual view that Marsha had. But it really made sense to me that not everyone wants to belong in that sense, and that itself, believing that everyone should belong is a bias and it, and it can weirdly exclude people. I thought that was sort of something I had to wrap my head around.

[00:35:04] Dan: And I think the, this culture ad piece is a really great approach rather than do you fit, will you add? The thing is though that, that I've realized talking to Marsha is you then have to do sort of culture. Inclusion work with the team so that before this poor person comes in, you say, you know, how are we going to be inclusive about this person?

[00:35:25] Dan: And of course that is going to benefit for the, the team as a whole rather than you have to comply actually. How can we a bit bit more inclusive and even people are currently in the team, I feel are going to benefit from that.

[00:35:36] Pia: I agree. It's much more open. and it's, it doesn't have to like a fixed dynamic that everybody's desperately trying to fit into. It's more open. And the add side of it is, is that actually the, the dynamic might morph slightly and that's okay. And that you're actually celebrating the value of each individual, not a set of values that define. That was also another point. They can, they can come quite rigid values to, to the point where they can exclude and then we get on our high horse about them. So that's another one that's quite interesting. It's quite nuanced, isn't it?

[00:36:10] Dan: It really is. Yeah, it was a, it was a great question from Stuart and just throws up a lot of things. I was, it also reminded me I was working with a team in the construction industry about five years ago. We did a sort of psychometric test on them and they were all sitting in one quadrant except for the poor HR woman, um, who was sitting in another one. And they were all these sort of blue analytical types. And they talked themselves around to the fact that's good. They should all be that, have the same thinking, but very strong on fit.

[00:36:40] Dan: But of course what we've learned from Marsha is that they are, they can do fine, actually, as she said. You go over there and be a homogeneous team. This poor woman needs to leave probably, because she wasn't being welcomed. But, you know, go if you want to do that, but you are, you're gonna be a second rate team, what you need to do is if, if you want to be really exceptional, add to your culture and be inclusive. 

[00:37:03] Dan: and I didn't really have a great answer at the time for them, except to try to extol the virtues of inclusion, but actually what you can say is, yeah, you'll be fine. You'll be, you will be fine as you are, but not as good as you could be. 

[00:37:15] Pia: The words you wished you'd had as a, as a

[00:37:18] Dan: I know, I know. Uh, but um, yes, we learn along the way, don't we? Which is a wonderful thing and what We Not Me is all about. But thank you Stuart for that great question. If anyone else has some, uh, some questions, they can send them our way. But that is it for this episode. You can find show notes and resources at squadify.net, just click on the We Not Me podcast link. If you've enjoyed the show, please share the love and recommend it to your friends. And if you'd like to contribute to the show like Stuart did, just email us at wenotmepod@gmail.com. We Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman of Origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.

[00:37:53] Pia: and it's goodbye from me.