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Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.

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Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.

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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New
York Times bestselling author of

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The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.

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Before I jump in with today's guest, I
want to say a huge thank you to you, our

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audience, for helping to make this happen.

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I have a request.

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If you like what we do here,
please give it a thumbs up,

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like, subscribe, tell a friend.

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It really, really helps
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To find out about our certification
courses, online video libraries,

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books, and other courses,
please go to rupertisaacson.com.

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So now let's jump in.

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Welcome back to Live Free, ride Free.

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I couldn't be more excited because today
I've got Tulga Otgonbaatar, who, those

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of you who know the Horse Boy story will
remember that there was a very, very long

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suffering man called Tulga Otgonbaatar
who came with his son Tomo, who actually

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organized the whole Horse Boy trip.

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Without toga, nothing would've happened.

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And then Tomo Toga's son was
Rowan's first friend ever.

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And then Tomo and Toga came together on
the journey up to the reindeer people.

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And we haven't seen each other in almost
20 years, but we've been, you know, we

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keep up with each other a little bit by
email and social media and so on, but to

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have Tulga Otgonbaatar sitting in front
of me looking frankly no older than he

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did almost 20 years ago is, is wonderful.

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And what we've just been chatting
about before we hit record was that

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in a year and a half, it will be the
20 year anniversary of the Horse Boy.

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And I think we should do some sort
of journey to Mongolia, some sort

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of pilgrimage really with Rowan,
get Rowan and Tommo back together.

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So hold on for that.

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So, so Tulga Otgonbaatar,
thanks so much for coming on.

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It's so good to see you.

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What I want to talk about on this
episode is nature and the mind.

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So as you know, since we were with you
in Mongolia, a whole movement started

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through horse Boy, where now we work
with autistic and people with all kinds

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of neuropsychiatric conditions in about
40 countries including work with horses

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but not limited to work with horses.

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And we have these three methodologies,
horse boy method, movement method,

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which is with no horses, and something
called takin borrowed from your

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Mongolian word for the WildHorse.

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Honored one.

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Revered one, which is how you
train the horse to do this work.

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And we do that as its own therapy
for people with trauma, adults

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with autism, that sort of thing.

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So what happened, what we did out
there in Mongolia almost 20 years ago

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has spread across the world into this
work with nature and the mind in a way

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that I could not really have foreseen.

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When we were struggling up those
mountains together to see the reindeer

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people and wondering if they would even
be there and engaging in all those.

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Shamanic ceremonies, which
clearly bore more fruit than we

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could have imagined at the time.

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So I think a lot of people who watch
the Horse Boy and Read The Horse

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Boy know You, but they know you, of
course, as you appear in that story,

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what they don't know is the toga that
started nomadic trails and why you

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did that, and why you decided to work
with Nature and the Mind and so on.

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So let me just turn over
the first question to you.

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A thank you for coming on the show, and
B, why did you decide to go into this

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line of work of bringing people out to
experience the great Mongolian step?

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Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes.

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Rupert, so, so nice to see you again.

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And we were having a chat just
before it started you recording it.

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So even though I'd like to really
say hello and again, so nice to

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catch you up after so many years.

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It's almost 20 years, so I'm
so excited that seeing things

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I have heard you wanted to.

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Have some this talk with me.

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So I was quite excited and been
started thinking all over again.

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And since 2006 we have been started, you
know, chatting and exchanging emails.

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Then it just, the old memories came back
to me and I was really, really excited.

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So, yes, here we are.

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Alright, back to your question.

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How did it all started?

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This is something, you know, back in
the 1990s I started learning English.

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'cause you know, Mongolia was
a country where dominated by

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Russians in German Soviet period.

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Even we were independent country, so
we had to learn Russian all the time.

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So in the late 1990s I was one of
the one of the lads who could, who

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I could speak English in Mongolia.

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So only the company in Mongolia
has chosen me to be a tool guide.

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So this is how it all started.

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So I it's like the job has found me.

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So I had, after so many years of.

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Of the tool guiding job.

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And I decided to run
my own company in 2004.

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So then I had an opportunity
to contact it with you.

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So then it all started,
this is how it began.

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Rupert Isaacson: But what, what's
interesting to me is that when people

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think about Mongolia, they, they obviously
think about the step, they think about the

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nature and the nomadic people and so on.

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But of course, as you know, Oland,
Batar, where you live, it's a big

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city and it's very much a city and you
are some of somewhat of a city boy.

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Why did you decide to make your living
not with the multinational companies,

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not with the oil and gas companies,
because, you know, you could have done

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that or, you know, the legal side of
big business with your language skills.

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You could have easily gone that
corporate route and made a lot of

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money, probably you know, working
with China and, and all of that.

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Why did you decide No, what I want
to do is, is work with nature.

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I want to get out of the city and, and
into the step and show people that,

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Tulga Otgonbaatar: yes.

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I remember when, when we met first
time Inba city the capital of Mongolia.

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As soon as you landed, I took you in a
vehicle and driving into the town and

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they said, wow, Lamber a city something.

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Not really nice, actually.

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So then I said, what you said
why you chosen this place?

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And I said, I was born
in, so I'm the city boy.

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That is my, the first very first answer.

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Yes.

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You know, working in, in this
field and also taking the people

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out in the beautiful nature,
I think it's action, isn't it?

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It's the passion sits in me and
traveling within a beautiful landscape.

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It's just really enjoyable, you
know, get get it out of, you know,

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leaving the city behind and you
know, enjoying all the nature.

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And, and also it's not only the nature,
it's the, the counter itself, you know,

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visiting nomads in the people living
out in this, in the place out in the.

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It's another another different experience.

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I always enjoy traveling, you know,
within a country and the countryside

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and still visiting families.

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And I wanted to show the world about,
you know, how Ong Orleans we leave, still

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surviving actually in, in this modern
world, rapidly changing the modern worlds.

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It's just, we keep our tradition as well.

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Of course.

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It's beautiful nature as well.

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And the same time, yes, the
mining is so big in Mongolia.

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Besides that, you know, this, there
were so many opportunities for sure,

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opportunities, but yes I wanted to show
Mongolia to the world and the show, it

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show all the experience about Mongolia
to all the people who comes to Mongolia.

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That was my the main, main
thing, main goal is still

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been sitting so strong in me.

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Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I, I think
that there's something which

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struck me early about the people
in Mongolia was people were kind.

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This was the first, you know, we, we
showed up with a very difficult boy.

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You know, Rowan was not easy.

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He was probably at his
most difficult back then.

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And he obviously presented
all kinds of challenges.

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Do you remember once he hit that lady
over the head with a plastic bottle out

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of the, out of the blue in the place
where we were at those sacred springs.

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And then he, you knows, through
these tantrums everywhere.

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And I had been with Rowan
in many places by then.

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I'd been with him in Russia.

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I'd been with him in other
parts of the USA and Europe.

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What was interesting to me was
always people's reactions to him.

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And even the lady who he hit over the head
with the bottle she wasn't pleased about

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it, but people reacted to Rowan with a
real sort of kindness and curiosity in

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Mongolia that was noticeable from day one.

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And it really didn't matter where we were.

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There was this sort of kindness and
acceptance and everywhere that we

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showed up, whether it was in the
towns or whether it was in nomadic

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camps, we'd be riding through these
nomadic camps and people would come to.

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Or camping close by, people
would come to find out who we

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were and what we were doing.

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And it wasn't just their reaction to
Roman, it was their reaction to all of us.

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Why do you think there is this quality
of kindness among the Mongolian people?

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Tulga Otgonbaatar: It just interesting
when you said there were moments I started

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just thought of that lady, and you, you,
you picked up that the exactly same thing.

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So, it seems you have the very
same feelings as well, so Yes.

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I do remember that you
know, magical moment.

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That was a nice evening.

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So we were nearby the holy
the spring water area.

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There was all of a sudden know
he picked up the, the bottle, the

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box, a bottle and started pouring
through what all of a sudden he hit.

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And the lady wasn't really pleased.

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Yes, that I remember that.

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And I also, I had the feeling, you
know, a little bit anxious feeling

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because of, you know, she might
react and, maybe do something else.

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So I was a bit worried, but and, and
you know, overall I thought, oh, okay.

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She, she will, you know, she will take
it easy because this is a little boy.

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'cause in Mongolia we treat a little
boys and kids, and that's way, and I

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think we are more patient when it comes
to the, so we always say it's forgiven.

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Forgiven because it, I think it's
in our culture, you know, to be

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more respectful to and nature,
respectful to kids and elders.

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Yeah, elder people.

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So this is our culture in our genes.

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So it's been carried
over a thousand of years.

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So I think it's one of the ways, you know,
we, especially, you know, the foreignness

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when, when, when they come, when you come
to Mongolia and we still, you know, would

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think, okay, he could make a mistake.

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She could make a mistake because this
he or she is new in here, it's fine.

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And also it's, you know, and
thousands of years that's experience

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of, you know, forgiveness.

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We always had it, that
it's, that helps a lot.

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Then I think it's most foreigners
in Mongolia, they, they really.

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You know, en enjoy that experiences.

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I think it seems, you know, the first
among goal is we look in quiet, you

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know, poker face or you know, we don't we
don't see show our emotions immediately.

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Then, you know, people
start talking and smiling.

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Maybe just a little bit of
ice breaking afterwards.

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Then we start having, you know,
that big laugh and start, you

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know, even we cannot talk.

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So we show using the hands language

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Rupert Isaacson: and

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Tulga Otgonbaatar: so on.

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I think it's should be
related to our nature as well.

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'cause our, the weather in here is
so harsh, so we have to be patient.

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You know, in the wintertime it just very
cold, so it just already minus 20 Celsius

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in degrees at night in Mongolia already.

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So, but in summertime it's quite opposite.

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So pleasant.

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So it can be quite hot.

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So I would say the weather
makes the Mongolians be patient

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and it helps a lot, I think.

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Yes.

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Mm-hmm.

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Rupert Isaacson: It's, it's
interesting too, because.

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From the European perspective of Mongolia,
we remember the history, you know, and

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one of the first things that one sees
when Mon goes to Mongolia, outside Ula,

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there's this huge statue of Genghis Kahan.

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And oh, he's the national hero, of
course, you know, to people in Europe.

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He's like, he's the guy
that killed everybody.

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And not just him, but Kla Khan
and Tamerlan and all these guys.

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And what's so interesting is that
the, he, you, you talk about the, a

00:15:33.695 --> 00:15:37.505
heritage of kindness and forgiveness
over thousands of years, but of course

00:15:37.505 --> 00:15:43.265
there was a long period of Mongolian's
history where Mongolia was perhaps the

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most aggressive, almost psychopathic
country on the planet in terms of

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the reach that it had, you know, from
the Pacific to the Mediterranean.

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Every couple of generations we kill
everybody and then sort of get a bit

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tired and then go back to Mongolia,
and then two generous days later,

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you know, oh, kill everybody.

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And then it stopped.

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Why did it stop?

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What, what, what changed the Mongo culture
from this sort of ultra aggressive,

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almost parasitic, you know, relationship
with the world to this sort of current,

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as you say, kindness, patience.

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Tulga Otgonbaatar: Well, this
is a very big question to

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answer that is not any easy.

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I try and to answer it.

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So basically, you know, living out in
the step of Mongolia you think peaceful

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quiets, but a lot going, I think in
somehow during the trip, during the

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tour, I think we had a little bit
of, at this conversation already,

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but back in 20 years, and so, yes.

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Did he, you know, in the, in Mongolia Chin
can he is like, the grand, grand father.

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He's like king of kings.

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So it's like, for us, it's
just like, unofficial religion.

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Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

00:17:24.305 --> 00:17:26.375
Tulga Otgonbaatar: And official a god.

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So if someone talks bad about him, the
Mongo go go really angry and sort of bad.

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So it's like, I would say this
is more like religion to us.

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So he's the national hero.

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So yes, when you leave the country.

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In Europe and somewhere,
somewhere in the western world and

00:17:48.835 --> 00:17:52.405
somewhere the part of the world.

00:17:52.405 --> 00:17:57.035
So it was known as, you know,
the big one of the big the war

00:17:57.035 --> 00:17:59.715
machines and murderer killer.

00:17:59.805 --> 00:18:04.885
And, you know, in that way, yes,
I agree with that because of all

00:18:04.885 --> 00:18:12.655
the history was written, those
countries who were defeated by moguls.

00:18:13.105 --> 00:18:20.755
So this is how they describe
moguls, you know, well, any war

00:18:21.715 --> 00:18:23.695
never been, never, never been.

00:18:24.085 --> 00:18:31.105
You know, like, so, so I think
Mongols did their part that's in

00:18:31.105 --> 00:18:33.745
the big history in the, in the past.

00:18:34.525 --> 00:18:39.715
So that's 800 years ago they did,
I would say they did their part.

00:18:40.105 --> 00:18:43.345
So we still have their
genes in blood for sure.

00:18:43.375 --> 00:18:43.855
Yes.

00:18:44.365 --> 00:18:47.575
But you know, after that,
so many things changed.

00:18:47.965 --> 00:18:52.315
It's, you know, Mongolians
converted into Bud Buddhist country

00:18:53.215 --> 00:18:56.665
in the, in the 16th century.

00:18:57.085 --> 00:18:57.115
Mm.

00:18:57.115 --> 00:19:03.415
We changed the shamanic world to
Buddhist and you know, we were under the

00:19:03.415 --> 00:19:05.875
maturing, one of the nomadic clients.

00:19:06.610 --> 00:19:11.200
When between the China and
Mongolia, but few hundred years.

00:19:11.470 --> 00:19:16.000
So we just kind of, we
just unique history.

00:19:16.060 --> 00:19:17.590
We were up and down a lot.

00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:23.425
So now we are trying to come back
after the, you know, the Soviet era

00:19:24.810 --> 00:19:27.540
trying to be our own independent.

00:19:28.050 --> 00:19:30.600
So just, we're doing good job on this.

00:19:30.630 --> 00:19:38.120
So I think now we are all, you know, the
fighting spirits has been gone really.

00:19:38.210 --> 00:19:44.600
And I mean, not all and all, but I think
mostly the fighting spirits are gone.

00:19:45.050 --> 00:19:46.100
Things have changed.

00:19:46.100 --> 00:19:46.915
So much have changed.

00:19:47.610 --> 00:19:52.800
Now we started, you know, to call
all these, the 13th century Mongols.

00:19:53.160 --> 00:19:55.110
It's like they did their job.

00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:56.640
Now it's modern day.

00:19:57.010 --> 00:19:58.900
With, we have changed a lot.

00:20:00.100 --> 00:20:04.570
Rupert Isaacson: Why do you think,
though, there was this, because this

00:20:04.570 --> 00:20:08.950
is a really good point, you said in the
17th century, the Buddhist, the Buddhist

00:20:09.400 --> 00:20:19.420
religion came to Mongolia, but it was
such a radically different concept to,

00:20:19.420 --> 00:20:26.830
as you say, the warlike spirit that had
been there before and such a sort of

00:20:26.830 --> 00:20:30.790
sudden change and such a, a lasting.

00:20:31.360 --> 00:20:37.390
And permanent change almost from
night today, from the most war-like

00:20:37.390 --> 00:20:41.740
people on the planet to one of
the most peaceful peoples on the

00:20:41.740 --> 00:20:45.010
planet within maybe two generations.

00:20:45.970 --> 00:20:48.430
This is quite extraordinary in history.

00:20:49.450 --> 00:20:52.450
Why do you think this
happened in Mongolia?

00:20:52.630 --> 00:20:54.280
Why did they go so suddenly?

00:20:54.490 --> 00:20:59.800
You know, these mon, these monks must
have shown up, talked about, you know,

00:21:00.790 --> 00:21:06.700
love and peace to these people who were
total warriors and instead of just killing

00:21:06.700 --> 00:21:08.530
these guys, why do you think they went?

00:21:08.530 --> 00:21:10.750
Yeah, that's a good idea, let's do that.

00:21:14.190 --> 00:21:14.820
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes.

00:21:15.270 --> 00:21:17.080
This is so, interesting.

00:21:17.170 --> 00:21:23.380
I think outside I'd outside it's
unique history, so it's, it's all gone.

00:21:23.890 --> 00:21:29.060
But in 200 years ago, the Mongols
were still, you know, had the fighting

00:21:29.060 --> 00:21:34.700
spirits and after the chink, there's
so many generations of the kings.

00:21:34.700 --> 00:21:34.760
Yeah.

00:21:35.120 --> 00:21:38.610
And they started, you know,
their own territories.

00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:44.790
I mean, these, they call the chinks
accessories they carried on their own.

00:21:45.270 --> 00:21:48.320
One of them were like 900 and 90 years.

00:21:48.320 --> 00:21:49.340
The other ones were.

00:21:49.940 --> 00:21:51.380
350 years.

00:21:51.530 --> 00:21:51.740
Yeah.

00:21:51.740 --> 00:21:53.390
K, k Tamerlan,

00:21:53.450 --> 00:21:54.170
Rupert Isaacson: all these guys.

00:21:54.170 --> 00:21:54.590
Yeah, exactly.

00:21:55.460 --> 00:21:56.150
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes.

00:21:56.150 --> 00:21:59.150
And the golden, that is the battle.

00:21:59.750 --> 00:21:59.840
Mm-hmm.

00:21:59.900 --> 00:22:00.620
The king.

00:22:01.040 --> 00:22:04.160
And so they carried, they
were carried on their own.

00:22:04.910 --> 00:22:08.120
So then all of a sudden, you
know, they started to struggle

00:22:08.120 --> 00:22:10.940
each other and start to fight.

00:22:11.180 --> 00:22:12.920
That made Mongols collapse.

00:22:13.310 --> 00:22:16.670
So that's back in, in
the 15th century then.

00:22:16.670 --> 00:22:16.700
Ah,

00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:17.570
Rupert Isaacson: civil wars.

00:22:17.570 --> 00:22:17.780
Yes.

00:22:17.780 --> 00:22:18.080
Moral,

00:22:18.155 --> 00:22:20.720
Tulga Otgonbaatar: you know,
just, you know, Mongols were

00:22:20.720 --> 00:22:23.590
just really collapsed already.

00:22:23.990 --> 00:22:31.940
But at same time they still had a fighting
spirits and even so they were big thrill.

00:22:32.090 --> 00:22:37.280
So in the 16 hundreds because of
the big struggle, there's always

00:22:37.620 --> 00:22:39.960
someone to take over, you know?

00:22:40.310 --> 00:22:45.890
It's, it's in Mong golden history,
if you know, one of the tribes, they

00:22:45.890 --> 00:22:52.700
were really powerful and they united
the others and ruled all the state.

00:22:53.240 --> 00:22:58.320
So Mongols were one of the tribes
who were very successful on that.

00:22:58.320 --> 00:23:07.000
So, which, which made the old, the nomadic
tribes to be united united and carried on.

00:23:07.330 --> 00:23:07.930
So, which.

00:23:08.710 --> 00:23:15.640
In the 15th, 16th century, the Mongols
were Mongol, the nomads were losing a

00:23:15.640 --> 00:23:20.640
power, and then all of a sudden they just
collided and start to fight each other.

00:23:20.940 --> 00:23:25.665
And they go, I mean, the URIs
half nomads in half, no much

00:23:25.665 --> 00:23:27.890
and half civilized tribes.

00:23:28.430 --> 00:23:34.010
Later on, they were known as, you
know, Chinese, URIs or Chinese.

00:23:34.520 --> 00:23:40.730
Lots of people think would think
URIs were Chinese, but the URIs

00:23:40.730 --> 00:23:43.320
were another different types.

00:23:43.320 --> 00:23:45.060
And they had their own states.

00:23:45.360 --> 00:23:51.290
And all of a sudden they became one of
the biggest dynasties in whole Asia.

00:23:51.800 --> 00:23:53.750
So they took over Mongolia.

00:23:54.200 --> 00:24:01.530
So they, they used that technique
to convert Mongols, you know,

00:24:01.530 --> 00:24:03.150
the fighting spirits they had.

00:24:03.510 --> 00:24:06.090
And it was hard to defeat moss.

00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:14.820
So they were patient, they used same
technique, same tactic for 200 years.

00:24:15.780 --> 00:24:19.885
And they were encouraging
the man to convert into la.

00:24:21.235 --> 00:24:25.795
And they were paid, even they
paid to build monasteries in

00:24:25.795 --> 00:24:28.615
Mongolia Temples, mon complexes.

00:24:29.275 --> 00:24:35.425
There were so many of them were paid
by man Kings and they were encouraging

00:24:35.425 --> 00:24:41.445
people especially the males, to
go to Tibet to learn Buddhism.

00:24:42.195 --> 00:24:48.535
So basically, you know, you,
it's you, you, right, Mongols

00:24:48.535 --> 00:24:52.765
were, you know, killing machines,
war machines before the fact.

00:24:53.215 --> 00:24:56.735
Then all of a sudden, you know,
there's a lot of your Buddhism

00:24:56.735 --> 00:24:59.855
is not to kill forgiveness.

00:25:00.515 --> 00:25:08.525
So, so it just made over the 200
years, just like many generations

00:25:08.525 --> 00:25:11.495
after, and somehow it worked so well.

00:25:11.525 --> 00:25:19.385
So basically then Mongols I would say
reintroduced Tibetan Buddhism to Mongolia

00:25:19.475 --> 00:25:22.835
in the 16th century, in the 17th century.

00:25:23.195 --> 00:25:28.505
So we had our own religious leader
who was one of the golden bloods,

00:25:28.895 --> 00:25:31.660
the king's blood of the Chines.

00:25:32.080 --> 00:25:35.625
The chin came mate himself
with first Golden Bloods

00:25:35.925 --> 00:25:37.695
blood golden Bloods line age.

00:25:38.085 --> 00:25:45.515
So then everyone agreed 'cause of
his re inclination the Buddhist.

00:25:46.010 --> 00:25:50.700
Very first Buddhist religious
leader was golden blood.

00:25:50.940 --> 00:25:59.450
And then it just, so many things
has changed in Mongol history, so,

00:25:59.600 --> 00:26:06.750
well, I would say the Urs, they
played so good roles to convert

00:26:06.975 --> 00:26:09.380
Mongols in the 17th century.

00:26:10.850 --> 00:26:12.890
Then things have changed a lot.

00:26:13.280 --> 00:26:19.550
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, it, I, I think
that it's one of the great unsung unknown

00:26:20.090 --> 00:26:26.500
achievements of humankind actually that
the most war-like nature culture on the

00:26:26.500 --> 00:26:31.120
planet became one of the most peaceful.

00:26:32.110 --> 00:26:37.270
We have a similar thing in Europe
actually, which is that the Vikings, you

00:26:37.270 --> 00:26:45.340
know, Scandinavia, that area was the most,
you know, the most warlike over there, and

00:26:45.340 --> 00:26:49.120
they today are the peacekeepers of Europe.

00:26:49.530 --> 00:26:53.610
Yes, I wonder what's gonna happen with,
with the England because, you know,

00:26:53.700 --> 00:27:00.960
we were also complete pirates, British
empire aggression, and I don't think

00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:08.190
we have achieved the same level of
peacefulness and enlightenment that.

00:27:08.775 --> 00:27:14.075
The Scandinavians or the Mongolians have,
and I think, you know, it's so interesting

00:27:14.075 --> 00:27:18.725
when people look at history, they usually,
we are, we're taught the big political

00:27:18.725 --> 00:27:21.275
events, the battles, the conquests.

00:27:22.595 --> 00:27:29.645
What we are not taught about is these
types of cultural achievements where whole

00:27:29.645 --> 00:27:38.915
peoples decide, you know, maybe this way
is not a good way, you know, for several

00:27:38.915 --> 00:27:42.485
million people to make this change.

00:27:42.905 --> 00:27:44.375
It's really an achievement.

00:27:44.375 --> 00:27:47.795
And I feel that Mongolians
should be really proud of this.

00:27:47.895 --> 00:27:50.115
But it's interesting you talk
about the, the, the fighting

00:27:50.115 --> 00:27:51.555
spirit, the warlike spirit.

00:27:51.585 --> 00:27:56.895
Of course, now in the new
modern age, everybody wants

00:27:56.895 --> 00:27:59.385
mongolia's natural resources.

00:27:59.695 --> 00:28:02.965
So China's going in there, Russia's
going in there, the western

00:28:02.965 --> 00:28:04.225
countries are going in there.

00:28:05.335 --> 00:28:12.775
I should imagine that something of
the fighting spirit is still needed

00:28:13.405 --> 00:28:23.645
to hold the country from being
pillaged for minerals and so on.

00:28:24.185 --> 00:28:28.625
How, how, what's, what's the
situation now with that in Mongolia?

00:28:28.625 --> 00:28:29.345
How do.

00:28:30.125 --> 00:28:35.375
The new generation of Mongolia's, people
like Tommo, your son, who obviously was

00:28:35.375 --> 00:28:41.225
Rowan's first friend, he's facing this
new situation, this new Mongolia h How

00:28:41.225 --> 00:28:43.265
do people like him feel about this,

00:28:45.935 --> 00:28:47.195
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Mongolia today?

00:28:48.045 --> 00:28:49.125
It's interesting.

00:28:49.455 --> 00:28:58.255
It's more democratic country
sandwiched between Russia and China.

00:28:58.885 --> 00:29:02.545
So if you're looking at the map
world's map, it just, you know, the

00:29:02.545 --> 00:29:08.035
huge Russia there and the China that
I know in between, there's a Mongo

00:29:08.065 --> 00:29:13.845
is blue, so it's the red Russia to
red China and the Blue Mongolia.

00:29:13.845 --> 00:29:17.135
It's a it's in our
flag, the red, blue red.

00:29:19.530 --> 00:29:27.095
So this is, so for for Mongolia,
we need to be always, you know, be

00:29:27.095 --> 00:29:29.375
aware of these two giants nowadays.

00:29:29.375 --> 00:29:34.815
I mean, there were moments
the Mongols were very powerful

00:29:35.115 --> 00:29:37.395
and they were ruling Russia.

00:29:37.395 --> 00:29:40.785
They were ruling China, but
it's all gone this past.

00:29:41.055 --> 00:29:47.595
So all we have is the, I know
our own country independence and

00:29:47.895 --> 00:29:49.695
the good thing is we are free.

00:29:49.845 --> 00:29:52.555
And also another thing is.

00:29:53.500 --> 00:29:55.060
We have our own country.

00:29:55.570 --> 00:30:00.220
So that is a all our main, main thing.

00:30:00.580 --> 00:30:02.080
We should be very proud of that.

00:30:02.380 --> 00:30:08.520
And of course, it's so, rich in
resources like copper, gold and coal.

00:30:08.970 --> 00:30:09.540
Yes.

00:30:09.590 --> 00:30:13.730
The world needs it and China,
Russia, they need it for sure.

00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:20.940
But yes, I think Mongolian
nowadays, nowadays we are so smart.

00:30:20.970 --> 00:30:25.200
I mean, still surviving in
between these two giants.

00:30:26.460 --> 00:30:30.110
Big brown Bear and the Ponder
Bear, they've just been between

00:30:30.410 --> 00:30:32.400
the Mong golden go bear there.

00:30:32.730 --> 00:30:34.740
So we need to be very smart.

00:30:34.740 --> 00:30:38.020
Otherwise things would go wrong easily.

00:30:38.560 --> 00:30:45.430
I think how much, how the government
they're trying, I think that their

00:30:45.430 --> 00:30:51.010
best there is, I think there would be
always complain about, you know, how the

00:30:51.010 --> 00:30:56.910
government is running badly in situations,
but still, you know, I think we have I,

00:30:57.145 --> 00:31:03.365
I see the lights and I see, you know, the
good, I mean the positiveness, a lot of

00:31:03.365 --> 00:31:09.095
positiveness in here because of, you know,
our country's more democratic country

00:31:09.125 --> 00:31:12.175
and we have freedom to say what we think.

00:31:13.555 --> 00:31:17.455
Even some people without thinking,
without judging, we still,

00:31:17.545 --> 00:31:19.135
you know, spread the word out.

00:31:19.135 --> 00:31:25.375
But, you know, it just so
important nowadays, and also in

00:31:25.375 --> 00:31:30.145
the government's level they start
listening the younger generations.

00:31:30.565 --> 00:31:38.000
So the last, let's say last four
years the, I would say the youth, the

00:31:38.005 --> 00:31:44.185
younger generation, we were went out
in the streets and the struck against

00:31:44.615 --> 00:31:51.625
governments and we managed to pull
the down to governments in Mongolia.

00:31:51.625 --> 00:31:55.855
So that indicates, you know, if
something goes wrong, we could,

00:31:56.155 --> 00:31:57.595
you know, come out and fight.

00:31:57.925 --> 00:32:04.375
And I mean, strike against governments
and there's still this this kind of, you

00:32:04.375 --> 00:32:06.115
know, these periods, we still have it.

00:32:06.175 --> 00:32:07.945
I think it's very good sign.

00:32:08.485 --> 00:32:15.025
And if we feel wrong, if we, if we feel
bad, we could just, you know, spread

00:32:15.025 --> 00:32:21.685
it out, you know, go out and the fights
that is I think one of the basements of

00:32:21.775 --> 00:32:25.585
that democracy, democracy in the world.

00:32:25.615 --> 00:32:32.345
And we, I would, I wouldn't say we
enjoying it, but we, we still using that.

00:32:33.275 --> 00:32:34.025
So.

00:32:34.730 --> 00:32:41.120
The, you know, opportunity in the, in, in
the future is more positive, I would say.

00:32:42.650 --> 00:32:45.380
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I mean,
you, you are, Mongolia is one of

00:32:45.380 --> 00:32:50.990
the great intact ecosystems of
the northern hemisphere, right?

00:32:50.990 --> 00:32:56.930
It, this is immediately apparent when
one is traveling there, one's looking

00:32:56.930 --> 00:33:02.270
at Mongolia going, wow, this is the
planet as it's supposed to look.

00:33:02.840 --> 00:33:07.940
And I was always amused too, how
you have the Western perspective.

00:33:07.940 --> 00:33:09.740
People talk about Mongolia.

00:33:09.890 --> 00:33:14.030
Outer Mongolia means the
edge beyond everything.

00:33:14.300 --> 00:33:19.490
And of course, for Mongolians, what
Mongolian means is home and it's the west.

00:33:19.490 --> 00:33:21.140
That's the edge of everything.

00:33:21.440 --> 00:33:27.560
But that homeland, that home is such a,

00:33:30.950 --> 00:33:32.060
a pure ecosystem.

00:33:32.060 --> 00:33:37.730
And what I mean by pure ecosystem is
people often have this idea within the

00:33:37.730 --> 00:33:42.740
ecological movement that a pure ecosystem
means an ecosystem without people.

00:33:43.130 --> 00:33:44.450
And of course this is not true.

00:33:44.790 --> 00:33:51.030
Humans are as much part of the
ecosystem as any other animal or plant.

00:33:51.630 --> 00:33:58.710
And so to see people still able
to live in that kind of harmony.

00:33:59.895 --> 00:34:03.465
Is, let's say it's educational.

00:34:04.245 --> 00:34:05.955
Even though we know the life is not easy.

00:34:06.315 --> 00:34:12.285
And then it's very apparent too when
one is staying in those nomadic camps

00:34:13.005 --> 00:34:17.505
that the quality of life is very high,
even though even though the weather

00:34:17.505 --> 00:34:20.835
is, is difficult and things are
remote, people are in very good health.

00:34:21.225 --> 00:34:24.165
People are, there's a
lot of gender equality.

00:34:24.495 --> 00:34:27.075
Children have a lot of freedom.

00:34:27.415 --> 00:34:29.035
People look after the land.

00:34:29.515 --> 00:34:33.955
The feeling is positive
and good wherever one goes.

00:34:36.955 --> 00:34:38.275
Is this changing?

00:34:38.275 --> 00:34:44.845
Is this under threat and are Mongolian
people as we move into this modern

00:34:44.845 --> 00:34:50.125
age, aware that this relationship of
humans to nature is something that

00:34:50.125 --> 00:34:54.785
needs to be protected, nurtured?

00:34:55.265 --> 00:34:56.435
And if so, how?

00:34:57.935 --> 00:34:59.045
With the changing economy?

00:35:01.355 --> 00:35:01.955
Lots of questions.

00:35:01.955 --> 00:35:02.015
Wow.

00:35:02.015 --> 00:35:04.775
Tulga Otgonbaatar: This is,
this is very good question.

00:35:04.775 --> 00:35:05.255
Yes.

00:35:05.465 --> 00:35:10.105
I think here Mongolia is one of
the countries where it's where

00:35:10.135 --> 00:35:12.955
it's quite untouched nature.

00:35:12.955 --> 00:35:13.045
Mm-hmm.

00:35:13.885 --> 00:35:16.815
I mean, the Mongolia is like, 3.5

00:35:16.815 --> 00:35:19.725
million now in population.

00:35:20.280 --> 00:35:25.280
So it, and a huge land, it's
just like a, a two person in

00:35:25.280 --> 00:35:26.840
one square of arm averages.

00:35:27.260 --> 00:35:30.410
So this is the lowest
density in the whole world.

00:35:30.950 --> 00:35:36.830
So even with that, so the whole
country, almost the whole most of the

00:35:37.040 --> 00:35:43.380
countries untouched, I would say so,
and living in this kind of ecosystem

00:35:43.800 --> 00:35:46.710
I totally, I totally agree with that.

00:35:47.250 --> 00:35:54.220
The humans are part of the big eco, big
part of that ecosystem system nowadays.

00:35:54.639 --> 00:36:02.109
So whole Mongolia, I think we are so
privileged to have these big lands and

00:36:02.259 --> 00:36:04.599
in this untouched beautiful nature.

00:36:05.199 --> 00:36:12.829
So it seems, you know, even the, the
popul population is growing and we

00:36:12.829 --> 00:36:20.189
are changing lot, lots more young
generations moving to the city towns.

00:36:21.089 --> 00:36:29.320
So there are still, you know, huge I
would say the huge thoughts of, you

00:36:29.320 --> 00:36:35.800
know, going back to being a nomad
herd in young generation nowadays

00:36:36.280 --> 00:36:38.730
'cause of let's say lamb to city.

00:36:39.660 --> 00:36:44.460
That we say it's about 300
more than 370 years of history.

00:36:44.460 --> 00:36:50.620
But mainly speaking, there's only
four or five generations being in

00:36:50.620 --> 00:36:57.460
settled in, in the city of a whole
city where on the move, because

00:36:57.460 --> 00:37:01.000
we're nomad, nomadic, capital city.

00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:01.150
So

00:37:02.140 --> 00:37:02.290
Rupert Isaacson: we

00:37:02.290 --> 00:37:04.570
Tulga Otgonbaatar: had
to move every season.

00:37:04.960 --> 00:37:10.840
Imagine the whole couples moving one
place to another after three months.

00:37:10.840 --> 00:37:14.170
And so, so that must
have been so difficult.

00:37:14.620 --> 00:37:20.299
So only, you know, 1850s we
settled plant matter cities

00:37:20.299 --> 00:37:23.420
not start not moving from here.

00:37:23.960 --> 00:37:29.660
So many reasons, you know, because of
these traders were having difficulties

00:37:29.660 --> 00:37:32.000
to find the capital city, right?

00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:34.655
So if, you know, the ones we're
asking each other, you know,

00:37:34.765 --> 00:37:39.780
have you seen the, have you seen
the capital Mongolian recently?

00:37:39.990 --> 00:37:40.680
Have you seen it?

00:37:41.070 --> 00:37:41.610
Oh, no, no.

00:37:41.610 --> 00:37:46.230
It has moved, you know, in
the northern, northern area.

00:37:46.230 --> 00:37:52.170
So you, you might ask somebody
else in, you know, coming in a

00:37:52.170 --> 00:37:53.730
couple of weeks, they might change.

00:37:53.730 --> 00:37:59.170
And so, so this kind of, you know, that
things where thing I would say it's

00:37:59.170 --> 00:38:01.720
so unique, it's because of the norm.

00:38:02.410 --> 00:38:07.700
We still carried or carried
that philosophy so much.

00:38:08.090 --> 00:38:12.359
And now, even nowadays like I said,
like four or five generations,

00:38:12.359 --> 00:38:15.300
people mainly lived in the country.

00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:24.230
So we still carrying all this philosophy
or to have our own genomic culture.

00:38:24.320 --> 00:38:31.550
So nowadays even, you know, the
ones in and living in city, we,

00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:37.470
we just quite connected easily
with the people in the country.

00:38:37.470 --> 00:38:41.850
In the normal, we always say
Mongolians, every single Mongolians

00:38:41.850 --> 00:38:44.560
they have any relatives in the country.

00:38:45.424 --> 00:38:47.894
We have sayings where you're from.

00:38:47.924 --> 00:38:51.254
So I would say, oh, I'm
from the ub Lamberton city.

00:38:51.854 --> 00:38:53.414
So they would say, no, no, no.

00:38:53.764 --> 00:38:54.874
Where's your background?

00:38:55.474 --> 00:39:00.154
So, which means, you know, your dad or
your grand's father, where are they from?

00:39:00.334 --> 00:39:02.104
So I would say, oh, from Gobi.

00:39:02.854 --> 00:39:03.814
Oh yeah, that's it.

00:39:03.989 --> 00:39:10.384
So that, so, which means every mongs, we
have a relatives back in this country,

00:39:10.384 --> 00:39:17.104
so we travel back and forth, and I think
we not, you know, even the ones from the

00:39:17.104 --> 00:39:21.214
city not far away from the nomad culture.

00:39:21.634 --> 00:39:28.714
So I think this gap is just, you
know, extending, extending, you

00:39:28.714 --> 00:39:31.304
know, each generations I would say.

00:39:31.604 --> 00:39:38.414
But, you know, the teaching our kids or
without, you know, telling them, we just

00:39:38.534 --> 00:39:41.084
bringing them to the country, traveling.

00:39:41.294 --> 00:39:45.284
It's just the main role for families.

00:39:45.624 --> 00:39:51.194
Even nowadays especially in
summertime, the huge movement.

00:39:51.344 --> 00:39:56.364
I mean, going back to the country
during the summertime, if the whole

00:39:56.364 --> 00:40:02.034
big thing in Mongolia, because I mean,
I would say the summer in Mongolia,

00:40:02.064 --> 00:40:05.034
one of the best places you want to be.

00:40:05.619 --> 00:40:13.339
So, then the whole mongs, I mean, people
from the city town, they would, they

00:40:13.339 --> 00:40:18.714
would love to leave, leave it behind
and go to the country for months.

00:40:18.979 --> 00:40:24.409
And so, so that means the people
still, you know, back going

00:40:24.409 --> 00:40:26.719
back to the culture and nature.

00:40:27.139 --> 00:40:34.199
So I think it's, it's our it's our
thing and we have this, this beautiful

00:40:34.199 --> 00:40:35.999
nature and beautiful culture.

00:40:36.629 --> 00:40:40.619
So this is like passing it
generation to generation.

00:40:41.009 --> 00:40:48.519
But I, I still think the gap is
extending, I mean the growing city and

00:40:48.519 --> 00:40:55.439
nomad even so, the Toma like for example
from Toma, our son, my son he lives

00:40:55.439 --> 00:41:02.189
in the city, but he knows if he knows
how to live in the country because I

00:41:02.189 --> 00:41:04.959
brought him to the country quite often.

00:41:05.289 --> 00:41:11.149
And so to, we live kind of staying
there for longer to one or two months.

00:41:11.509 --> 00:41:12.829
So this is how we.

00:41:13.654 --> 00:41:17.284
Trying to leave our culture behind.

00:41:17.764 --> 00:41:21.454
Even the city, the ones in
the country is all right.

00:41:21.454 --> 00:41:26.774
I mean, they, they, they do have their own
problems, but you know, generally speaking

00:41:27.144 --> 00:41:29.334
they are really happy staying over there.

00:41:29.814 --> 00:41:31.434
Not modern days.

00:41:31.764 --> 00:41:38.374
Things are so much improved, for example
because they use the solar panels a

00:41:38.464 --> 00:41:45.114
lot nowadays 'cause they have their own
electricity to generate from the solar.

00:41:45.684 --> 00:41:51.714
And then things are so much they have
mobile phones and they watch TVs and

00:41:51.744 --> 00:41:55.164
they have their own social medias.

00:41:55.169 --> 00:41:57.024
They, they use Facebook a lot.

00:41:57.744 --> 00:42:03.904
So, yes more than normal, I would
say happy, I would say really happy

00:42:03.904 --> 00:42:06.004
living out in the, the country.

00:42:08.824 --> 00:42:12.394
Rupert Isaacson: Your, the place I
know that's closest to your heart

00:42:12.574 --> 00:42:17.074
in Mongolia is actually not the area
that we were in where we, we were up

00:42:17.074 --> 00:42:18.694
in Siberia with the reindeer people.

00:42:18.904 --> 00:42:24.304
I know that for you, the place closest
to your heart is the Gobi, is the desert.

00:42:26.704 --> 00:42:27.784
Why is that?

00:42:27.784 --> 00:42:30.694
Because it's, it's known
as one of the harshest.

00:42:32.014 --> 00:42:35.254
Landscapes on Earth, one of the
most difficult places to survive,

00:42:35.314 --> 00:42:39.514
extremes of temperature, very
little rainfall, et cetera.

00:42:39.874 --> 00:42:43.624
What is it about the Gobi
that's such a special place?

00:42:47.074 --> 00:42:47.614
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes.

00:42:47.829 --> 00:42:54.639
You see, when you, when you think
about Mongolia, the Gobi comes out and

00:42:55.509 --> 00:42:57.429
quite a few things come up for sure.

00:42:58.029 --> 00:43:03.809
It seems the Gobi Desert it's been,
firstly, I would say is firstly

00:43:04.289 --> 00:43:05.729
it's been advertised so much.

00:43:06.959 --> 00:43:08.129
And the secondly,

00:43:10.589 --> 00:43:13.229
there are so much of the
natural resources there.

00:43:13.679 --> 00:43:13.889
Mm-hmm.

00:43:13.969 --> 00:43:19.309
Third, I would say a Gobi itself
is just a really fascinating place.

00:43:19.879 --> 00:43:27.179
So if we think of desert, so, the
Africa Sahara anywhere in the continent

00:43:27.269 --> 00:43:30.059
is, would have our own big deserts.

00:43:30.629 --> 00:43:35.939
So for mobility, the Goby
deserts it just gets cold really.

00:43:36.029 --> 00:43:43.459
And we, we have snow in the Goby
in the wintertime, and also it can

00:43:43.519 --> 00:43:46.959
be really green in the summertime.

00:43:47.319 --> 00:43:47.559
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

00:43:48.249 --> 00:43:50.564
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Same
time, you know, you see this.

00:43:51.364 --> 00:43:55.974
Picture the filter behind me, the
background was taken in the goby.

00:43:55.974 --> 00:43:56.004
Okay.

00:43:56.364 --> 00:43:57.324
You can't imagine that.

00:43:57.774 --> 00:43:58.104
No.

00:43:58.104 --> 00:44:01.734
Yes, you would take a step, but it's
in the goby, down in the south Goby.

00:44:01.734 --> 00:44:01.794
How

00:44:01.794 --> 00:44:02.364
Rupert Isaacson: interesting.

00:44:02.424 --> 00:44:03.534
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Taking it last year.

00:44:04.104 --> 00:44:05.394
So it's like that.

00:44:05.394 --> 00:44:07.914
So it's just incredible changes.

00:44:07.919 --> 00:44:13.264
You can see incredible changes,
incredible places for sure to I think

00:44:13.264 --> 00:44:16.124
there's a very good energy as well.

00:44:16.604 --> 00:44:20.684
So huge emptiness and the
wilderness, wild games.

00:44:21.584 --> 00:44:23.204
So much of that, so much of in there.

00:44:24.764 --> 00:44:26.054
And the sand juice, of course.

00:44:26.054 --> 00:44:29.384
Sand dunes big tall
mountains that we have.

00:44:29.444 --> 00:44:33.844
And snow leopards and mountain
goats and mountain heap.

00:44:34.204 --> 00:44:35.254
So many things there.

00:44:35.914 --> 00:44:36.004
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:44:37.564 --> 00:44:37.894
Yeah.

00:44:37.894 --> 00:44:39.304
Makes me want to go immediately.

00:44:39.794 --> 00:44:45.664
Let's, let's talk about the spiritual
aspect of the nature in Mongoli.

00:44:45.724 --> 00:44:45.814
Mm-hmm.

00:44:45.814 --> 00:44:52.564
So this is still obviously a part of the
world where shamanic culture is unbroken.

00:44:52.624 --> 00:44:55.714
Even though the Soviets tried
to break it, they couldn't.

00:44:56.314 --> 00:45:04.114
And obviously I myself am a
recipient of the power of that

00:45:04.174 --> 00:45:09.874
healing culture because the child
that we went out to Mongolia with.

00:45:11.974 --> 00:45:16.084
And the child we came back from Mongolia
with were two very different children.

00:45:16.684 --> 00:45:23.374
And you and I both observed Rowan's
healing as we made our journey

00:45:23.404 --> 00:45:28.504
from, do you remember that first
ritual outside of Ula Batar where

00:45:28.504 --> 00:45:31.054
they whipped me and and Kristen.

00:45:31.414 --> 00:45:36.064
And I remember the watching the guy
come across to me with the whip,

00:45:36.124 --> 00:45:37.804
and I'm like, he's gonna whip me.

00:45:38.134 --> 00:45:41.254
And I turned to you and I,
I said, is he gonna whip me?

00:45:41.524 --> 00:45:44.314
And you went, ha, maybe a little bit.

00:45:44.504 --> 00:45:45.944
It's important not to cry out.

00:45:49.274 --> 00:45:55.304
And he whipped me so hard, he
whipped me right across my groin.

00:45:55.994 --> 00:46:00.974
And it was like I left my body
in that moment with the pain,

00:46:01.634 --> 00:46:03.014
but managed not to cry out.

00:46:03.584 --> 00:46:08.684
But what was so interesting about
that, these of course were the shamans

00:46:08.684 --> 00:46:15.464
of the horse people, the steps was
that I, at no point got any, any

00:46:15.464 --> 00:46:21.044
feeling that these people were trying
to do anything other than help us

00:46:21.464 --> 00:46:27.434
with the best technology, spiritual
technology that they had available.

00:46:27.614 --> 00:46:32.144
And of course, it was during that
first ritual, which was in some ways

00:46:32.144 --> 00:46:37.604
so difficult that Rowan made his
first friend with your son, with Tomo.

00:46:38.294 --> 00:46:38.639
And then.

00:46:39.854 --> 00:46:47.084
Each healer that we visited, Rowan
became more and more present.

00:46:47.624 --> 00:46:53.714
And then by the time we were up with
the reindeer people, the three days of

00:46:53.714 --> 00:46:59.524
healing there with ghost, the reindeer
healer, 27 hours after we came down

00:46:59.524 --> 00:47:05.734
that mountain, Rowan did his first
intentional shit and cleaned himself.

00:47:05.944 --> 00:47:09.604
And I always say this was like
watching England win the World Cup.

00:47:09.634 --> 00:47:10.774
It really was.

00:47:11.194 --> 00:47:12.924
And we never looked back.

00:47:13.584 --> 00:47:17.424
And then if you remember, ghost
told me that I had to do these

00:47:17.424 --> 00:47:18.714
three more healing journeys.

00:47:18.744 --> 00:47:23.454
So I did to Africa, to Australia,
to the Navajo reservation.

00:47:23.844 --> 00:47:28.494
And everything that Ghost
said would happen happened.

00:47:30.894 --> 00:47:34.134
And I know that I'm not the only
one who has had this experience.

00:47:34.134 --> 00:47:40.404
And it's so interesting when we got
back to the West and I published the

00:47:40.404 --> 00:47:46.224
story and made the film, of course they
were successful, these stories in the

00:47:46.224 --> 00:47:48.714
film, but with success comes criticism.

00:47:49.044 --> 00:47:54.054
And a lot of people also attacked
us and said, oh, you are saying,

00:47:54.114 --> 00:47:57.924
you know, shamanism cures
autism or horses cure autism?

00:47:57.924 --> 00:47:59.274
And said, no, no, we're not.

00:47:59.994 --> 00:48:01.944
But what we are saying is.

00:48:02.754 --> 00:48:06.024
That there is a difference
between healing and cure.

00:48:06.984 --> 00:48:10.914
Cure implies that you take
something out completely.

00:48:11.724 --> 00:48:13.344
Rowan is still autistic.

00:48:13.584 --> 00:48:15.504
He, he, he, okay.

00:48:15.504 --> 00:48:17.334
He lives pretty independently now.

00:48:17.334 --> 00:48:18.894
He has his own car.

00:48:18.894 --> 00:48:20.544
He has his own house.

00:48:20.574 --> 00:48:22.914
He has a two, three jobs.

00:48:22.914 --> 00:48:24.984
He travels by himself.

00:48:24.984 --> 00:48:26.454
He, but he's still

00:48:28.794 --> 00:48:29.424
autistic.

00:48:29.424 --> 00:48:30.324
That is part of him.

00:48:31.044 --> 00:48:33.474
But the great gifts come with that autism.

00:48:33.744 --> 00:48:41.454
But the healing of the suffering that he
was going through, the incontinence, the

00:48:41.454 --> 00:48:49.134
tantruming, the inability to make friends,
the isolation, it was Mongolia and the

00:48:49.134 --> 00:48:54.684
contact with the nature and the shamans
of Mongolia that really changed this.

00:48:54.684 --> 00:48:58.314
It was, there was a child who
arrived in Mongolia and there was

00:48:58.314 --> 00:49:02.094
a very different child who got
on the plane to leave Mongolia.

00:49:03.744 --> 00:49:06.744
You have of course seen this
happen time and time again.

00:49:06.744 --> 00:49:12.144
You've taken many people to see Shannon's
talk to us about your experience.

00:49:12.144 --> 00:49:13.494
What do you feel is going on?

00:49:13.554 --> 00:49:16.764
And you yourself were not, you
were not necessarily brought up

00:49:17.724 --> 00:49:20.574
with this experience because as
you say, you were a city boy.

00:49:20.784 --> 00:49:26.764
So this was something that really came
through your, your career showing people.

00:49:27.754 --> 00:49:31.264
Mongolia and Mongolian culture,
what are your impressions?

00:49:31.264 --> 00:49:36.904
Why do you think the Mongolian
shamans are still so effective?

00:49:38.014 --> 00:49:43.384
And yeah, just, just talk to us
about your impressions of this.

00:49:43.384 --> 00:49:43.474
Mm-hmm.

00:49:44.044 --> 00:49:44.524
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes.

00:49:45.274 --> 00:49:48.214
Well, that was quite a lot of questions

00:49:48.299 --> 00:49:48.519
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

00:49:48.519 --> 00:49:49.159
That I had to take.

00:49:49.159 --> 00:49:49.169
Yes.

00:49:49.169 --> 00:49:49.864
I apologize.

00:49:50.119 --> 00:49:50.679
Take it down.

00:49:51.934 --> 00:49:53.404
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Just start
wherever you wanna start.

00:49:53.404 --> 00:49:53.614
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:49:54.664 --> 00:49:55.084
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Okay.

00:49:55.184 --> 00:49:58.784
To begin with, Mongolia Shamanism.

00:49:59.294 --> 00:50:04.844
During the Soviet, even during the
Soviet period they were very strongly

00:50:04.844 --> 00:50:08.204
pressed all the religion in Mongolia.

00:50:08.744 --> 00:50:14.714
You know, mon, during the Soviet period,
period, let's say 1980s, the Mongolia

00:50:14.714 --> 00:50:23.604
was claiming the country with, with
that a 99% not religious country.

00:50:24.084 --> 00:50:29.794
Because of, you know, we killed all the
monks and destroyed all the monasteries.

00:50:29.974 --> 00:50:33.094
There's more than 700
complexes were destroyed.

00:50:33.094 --> 00:50:36.634
I mean, the monastery
complexes with been destroyed.

00:50:37.024 --> 00:50:44.894
Lamas being purged and the 1930s
and killed 30,000 lamas and monks.

00:50:45.404 --> 00:50:47.174
Including salmons as well.

00:50:47.564 --> 00:50:53.294
So just, you know, we have gone
through really the dark periods

00:50:53.504 --> 00:50:55.154
during that Soviet period.

00:50:55.814 --> 00:51:01.604
And even so, you know, more in the, the
Virgin North where in the remoteness

00:51:02.054 --> 00:51:09.734
where remote country mountains and the
people still practiced shamanism and

00:51:09.734 --> 00:51:16.024
that's made they didn't, you know, I
mean they irritated themselves in past

00:51:16.454 --> 00:51:18.974
that shamanism generation generations.

00:51:19.004 --> 00:51:21.734
This is how they managed firstly.

00:51:22.274 --> 00:51:29.444
So that's why Mongolian shamanism
stayed alive a lot during, even

00:51:29.534 --> 00:51:32.714
during that dark period of Soviets.

00:51:33.374 --> 00:51:42.204
So, I'm glad you came to Mongolia and
found, and you did your own work and the

00:51:42.234 --> 00:51:51.554
horses and the shamanism and the big open,
open place, so suited for the kids kids.

00:51:52.004 --> 00:51:54.044
This is, that was your choice.

00:51:54.414 --> 00:52:02.224
I think I'm so grateful for that
because of, you know, you said in 2006

00:52:03.064 --> 00:52:05.764
my, you mentioned my son is autistic.

00:52:07.384 --> 00:52:08.314
To begin with that.

00:52:08.314 --> 00:52:13.174
So in Mongolia I did,
I've never heard of that.

00:52:14.374 --> 00:52:19.654
And I've asked my, you know,
the doctor, friends and whoever

00:52:19.654 --> 00:52:22.154
in this psychiatric part.

00:52:22.994 --> 00:52:24.104
No one knew.

00:52:24.524 --> 00:52:26.834
No one knew what the autism was.

00:52:27.374 --> 00:52:31.004
That was really, really something.

00:52:31.424 --> 00:52:33.914
Then I asked, what is autism?

00:52:33.914 --> 00:52:36.584
How was your kids condition?

00:52:37.094 --> 00:52:43.284
You wrote two pages of a letter
and I read it and I couldn't

00:52:43.284 --> 00:52:45.474
figure out you know, completely.

00:52:45.924 --> 00:52:50.994
I thought, Hmm, it's something
wrong with, you know, the mantle

00:52:51.624 --> 00:52:53.724
or something is really different.

00:52:54.294 --> 00:52:56.574
I may have never seen it before.

00:52:57.324 --> 00:53:01.554
And I talked to my friends and
they never experienced, they

00:53:01.554 --> 00:53:02.874
never had this experience.

00:53:03.204 --> 00:53:08.754
They knew Monga Lloyds, they knew someone,
something else, but, and I, I shouldn't,

00:53:08.814 --> 00:53:10.494
I shouldn't mention that to Monga Lloyds.

00:53:10.794 --> 00:53:12.254
So, down syndrome,

00:53:12.344 --> 00:53:13.154
Rupert Isaacson: we, we call it Yeah,

00:53:13.394 --> 00:53:14.084
Tulga Otgonbaatar: exactly.

00:53:14.084 --> 00:53:15.554
It, the syndrome down.

00:53:15.974 --> 00:53:22.114
And then by the time it was, it
named Mongoloid, but I'm glad it's

00:53:22.114 --> 00:53:26.314
changed to down, but they don't,
they don't mention it anymore.

00:53:26.404 --> 00:53:29.884
So it's Down Syndrome and yes, so.

00:53:30.664 --> 00:53:37.114
I would say after you came to Mongolia and
leave left the country and you wrote the

00:53:37.114 --> 00:53:40.994
book about it then the movie was released.

00:53:41.624 --> 00:53:47.224
That's a movie was shown in,
on Mongo, on Mongolia TVs.

00:53:47.494 --> 00:53:49.534
All the TVs, I would say all of them.

00:53:50.144 --> 00:53:56.744
They, they showed to Mongolia a lot,
maybe I would say, over and over.

00:53:57.344 --> 00:54:02.984
So then the people started to
understand what the autism was and

00:54:03.014 --> 00:54:08.884
now it's the one, you know, the,
whenever we say autism, it just, you

00:54:08.884 --> 00:54:11.374
know, people know it's already Yeah.

00:54:11.584 --> 00:54:18.354
And we accept the kids, you know, the
behavior of the kids and the parents.

00:54:18.384 --> 00:54:23.064
You know, it just, you know,
everything about autism is accepted

00:54:23.394 --> 00:54:25.674
after you left the country.

00:54:25.704 --> 00:54:28.314
We made the movie we
wrote a book about it.

00:54:28.944 --> 00:54:34.274
So we, I think we should be very
thankful for you during that.

00:54:35.384 --> 00:54:41.534
Moving on to that, you know, the
very first this, this shamanic

00:54:42.144 --> 00:54:47.174
ceremony out outside of just a
little bit outside of lamb to city

00:54:47.174 --> 00:54:49.214
and in the bottom of the mountain.

00:54:49.674 --> 00:54:54.874
When you start mentioning about
it, all my memories came back.

00:54:55.054 --> 00:55:00.484
I mean, it just there was nine shamans
and, you know, they started one by one

00:55:00.484 --> 00:55:06.424
and all of a sudden one of them I didn't,
I I, I wouldn't say that he'd decided to,

00:55:06.694 --> 00:55:13.084
we, but they just, I think the naturally,
I mean, just one of the, they, their

00:55:13.174 --> 00:55:20.084
methods I knew it was coming and I was
like, you know, trying to make it soft to

00:55:20.084 --> 00:55:23.114
tell you softer way, but I like the ways.

00:55:23.624 --> 00:55:28.424
But yes, at the end it was, I mean,
it was hit so hard I could see that.

00:55:28.454 --> 00:55:28.754
Oh,

00:55:28.994 --> 00:55:29.354
Rupert Isaacson: oh,

00:55:29.474 --> 00:55:30.674
Tulga Otgonbaatar: oh, yeah.

00:55:30.774 --> 00:55:36.309
That was, I would say, so
intense and to describe that.

00:55:36.649 --> 00:55:41.589
But, you know, at the end
things changed immediately.

00:55:41.949 --> 00:55:45.204
I mean, that is a thing, you know.

00:55:45.204 --> 00:55:50.544
Then Toma arrived and arrives
with, with his mom, my wife,

00:55:51.474 --> 00:55:53.514
in the middle of the ceremony.

00:55:53.514 --> 00:55:57.324
Then he starts to running,
he start running to towards,

00:55:57.324 --> 00:55:59.874
to Towa and start hugging.

00:56:00.324 --> 00:56:02.124
And you were so happy with that.

00:56:02.124 --> 00:56:03.444
And we'd never, he'd

00:56:03.444 --> 00:56:06.384
Rupert Isaacson: never done that
before to another child, ever.

00:56:06.384 --> 00:56:07.374
Like never.

00:56:07.434 --> 00:56:07.464
Mm.

00:56:08.304 --> 00:56:10.374
And it happened in the
middle of that ceremony.

00:56:11.049 --> 00:56:11.649
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Exactly.

00:56:11.649 --> 00:56:16.269
That was very, I mean, it's magical
moment, one of the magical moments.

00:56:16.269 --> 00:56:20.949
So for us, it just, 'cause I, I've
never experienced the autism before

00:56:20.979 --> 00:56:22.589
and it was like quite common.

00:56:22.589 --> 00:56:27.594
And I thought, Hmm, why,
why is he so happy about it?

00:56:27.899 --> 00:56:33.309
And, and also when we, in a few
days we left the, left the country

00:56:33.669 --> 00:56:38.169
and we were driving and all of a
sudden we stopped and the kids went

00:56:38.169 --> 00:56:40.959
out and start to play the pirates.

00:56:41.349 --> 00:56:45.509
And you were extraordinary,
extra happy with that.

00:56:46.019 --> 00:56:48.749
So then I, I thought, hmm, this is normal.

00:56:48.749 --> 00:56:50.669
We kids can play each other.

00:56:50.969 --> 00:56:56.109
So that means I've, we've, we've
never known the autism before.

00:56:56.169 --> 00:56:59.079
We've never experienced this and
I've never experienced it before.

00:56:59.469 --> 00:57:07.389
So then after you left, I realized
a lot about the, the autism and how

00:57:07.389 --> 00:57:14.859
it works and also how the, the main
thing is how the community accepted.

00:57:15.249 --> 00:57:20.469
That is a very interesting, and
after you left and the movie released

00:57:20.829 --> 00:57:25.869
book was released, and it was
painted in Mon Mongolian after the,

00:57:26.319 --> 00:57:32.124
was it if I'm not mistaken, 22nd
language, and that was Mongolian.

00:57:32.944 --> 00:57:36.154
And people read it and watched it a lot.

00:57:36.184 --> 00:57:38.344
And people contacted in Mongolia.

00:57:38.614 --> 00:57:43.164
Mongolia contacted me a lot, and all
of a sudden there were so many autistic

00:57:43.164 --> 00:57:51.114
kids came out and this, the com community
started to accept them, you know, and

00:57:52.104 --> 00:57:55.014
then it made huge changes, I would say.

00:57:55.014 --> 00:57:56.754
It made huge changes, right?

00:57:58.839 --> 00:57:59.059
So

00:57:59.124 --> 00:58:01.784
Rupert Isaacson: As you know, if
you followed any of my work, I'm

00:58:01.784 --> 00:58:08.964
an autism dad and we have a whole
career before this podcast in helping

00:58:08.964 --> 00:58:13.684
people with neurodivergence, either
who are professionals in the field.

00:58:13.764 --> 00:58:14.604
Are you a therapist?

00:58:15.024 --> 00:58:16.294
Are you a caregiver?

00:58:16.684 --> 00:58:17.694
Are you a parent?

00:58:18.129 --> 00:58:20.159
Or are you somebody with neurodivergence?

00:58:21.599 --> 00:58:26.539
When my son, Rowan, was
diagnosed with autism in 2004,

00:58:26.579 --> 00:58:28.209
I really didn't know what to do.

00:58:28.409 --> 00:58:33.679
So I reached out for mentorship, and
I found it through an amazing adult

00:58:33.719 --> 00:58:36.519
autistic woman who's very famous, Dr.

00:58:36.669 --> 00:58:37.559
Temple Grandin.

00:58:37.759 --> 00:58:39.399
And she told me what to do.

00:58:39.449 --> 00:58:43.689
And it's been working so
amazingly for the last 20 years.

00:58:44.039 --> 00:58:48.489
That not only is my son basically
independent, but we've helped

00:58:48.749 --> 00:58:52.499
countless, countless thousands
of others reach the same goal.

00:58:52.839 --> 00:58:56.739
Working in schools, working at
home, working in therapy settings.

00:58:57.769 --> 00:59:02.209
If you would like to learn this
cutting edge, neuroscience backed

00:59:02.429 --> 00:59:04.469
approach, it's called Movement Method.

00:59:05.129 --> 00:59:08.487
You can learn it online, you
can learn it very, very simply.

00:59:08.487 --> 00:59:10.749
It's almost laughably simple.

00:59:11.689 --> 00:59:14.389
The important thing is to begin.

00:59:15.319 --> 00:59:18.469
Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr.

00:59:18.469 --> 00:59:21.759
Grandin and see what results can follow.

00:59:22.789 --> 00:59:25.719
Go to this website, newtrailslearning.

00:59:27.989 --> 00:59:30.494
com Sign up as a gold member.

00:59:30.934 --> 00:59:33.824
Take the online movement method course.

00:59:34.314 --> 00:59:35.684
It's in 40 countries.

00:59:36.294 --> 00:59:38.354
Let us know how it goes for you.

00:59:38.554 --> 00:59:39.324
We really want to know.

00:59:39.334 --> 00:59:43.834
We really want to help people like
me, people like you, out there

00:59:44.184 --> 00:59:47.464
live their best life, to live
free, ride free, see what happens.

00:59:48.454 --> 00:59:52.384
I had no idea that the book and
that the story was so influential

00:59:52.384 --> 00:59:54.184
within Mongolia, I didn't know that

00:59:55.054 --> 00:59:56.284
Tulga Otgonbaatar: it
had had this big effect.

00:59:57.604 --> 00:59:58.144
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, well, that's good.

00:59:58.924 --> 00:59:59.284
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yeah.

00:59:59.374 --> 01:00:00.034
It's good.

01:00:00.034 --> 01:00:00.869
Yes, it's good.

01:00:01.414 --> 01:00:07.834
And I've met a few people, you know,
from the, they even have sessions.

01:00:08.224 --> 01:00:13.844
Sessions and trying to, you know, they
bring up the kids in the norm in the

01:00:13.844 --> 01:00:15.644
normal classrooms and things like that.

01:00:15.644 --> 01:00:16.724
It just happens.

01:00:17.234 --> 01:00:21.764
And I'm not sure what's happening right
now, and things are so much change there.

01:00:21.764 --> 01:00:22.904
So I, I think the

01:00:25.464 --> 01:00:31.474
immediately we learned autism and
we immediately suffered the autism

01:00:31.654 --> 01:00:33.874
in Port Mongo whole Mongolia.

01:00:34.324 --> 01:00:42.064
So it's a big thing for me, you know, as
a city boy growing without any religion

01:00:42.544 --> 01:00:50.334
and, when the collapse of the communism
were allowing us to have our own religion.

01:00:50.904 --> 01:00:58.584
So Mongos picked up Buddhism, but I
followed it and I tried to go to monastery

01:00:59.074 --> 01:01:00.994
Tibetan Buddhist monastery in here.

01:01:01.444 --> 01:01:07.084
So then started to seeing some of
the shamans and just one or two only,

01:01:07.474 --> 01:01:13.954
and just getting, you know, just had
a little about understanding, little

01:01:13.954 --> 01:01:21.504
understanding of how it works and
things were, you know, still, and very

01:01:21.504 --> 01:01:24.564
small experience with that religion.

01:01:24.864 --> 01:01:31.424
So all of a sudden, and you came
and things changed, changed and my

01:01:31.754 --> 01:01:38.084
knowledge of, you know, the shamanism
started to gaining a lot and meeting

01:01:38.234 --> 01:01:43.064
big shams and shams after that
even things so much have changed.

01:01:43.064 --> 01:01:43.484
Yes.

01:01:44.264 --> 01:01:45.434
So, wow.

01:01:45.974 --> 01:01:53.264
Thank you from the Mongolians to making
all this, you know, efforts make change

01:01:53.264 --> 01:01:56.294
the Mongolian perspective of shaman, no.

01:01:57.284 --> 01:01:59.744
The autism in Mongolia.

01:01:59.744 --> 01:02:04.194
Autism how it works so much so.

01:02:04.749 --> 01:02:05.919
I think it was, well, wow.

01:02:05.949 --> 01:02:06.399
I wasn't

01:02:06.399 --> 01:02:07.479
Rupert Isaacson: expecting this at all.

01:02:07.479 --> 01:02:08.529
Thank you so much.

01:02:08.529 --> 01:02:11.109
I, you know, it's always good to have

01:02:13.369 --> 01:02:13.699
yeah.

01:02:13.699 --> 01:02:15.649
I, I, I, I had no idea.

01:02:15.709 --> 01:02:16.579
I had no idea.

01:02:17.089 --> 01:02:22.909
I have seen, you know, some of the
effects of what we've done in the

01:02:22.909 --> 01:02:27.739
West, but I, I didn't know that it
had had such a profound effect for

01:02:27.739 --> 01:02:31.159
people like my son in, in Mongolia.

01:02:31.159 --> 01:02:33.109
So I'm, I'm very grateful to hear this.

01:02:33.109 --> 01:02:33.649
Thank you.

01:02:34.939 --> 01:02:36.739
Why do you think,

01:02:39.169 --> 01:02:43.489
what do you, you know, I, I have my
own theories about why Shamanism works

01:02:44.059 --> 01:02:49.279
when it works well, because I've seen
it now in so many, in so many contexts,

01:02:49.279 --> 01:02:50.629
and it's always interesting to me.

01:02:50.629 --> 01:02:55.549
I do understand why people are
skeptical, but there's, I always

01:02:55.549 --> 01:03:00.709
have a question for people when they
say, well, these guys are, it's,

01:03:00.709 --> 01:03:01.909
it's gotta be bullshit, you know?

01:03:02.044 --> 01:03:07.669
And I say, well, if it was bullshit,
honestly, most of the people that

01:03:08.029 --> 01:03:15.139
live in those areas would be dead
because they live so far from any

01:03:15.139 --> 01:03:22.459
kind of western medicine that if
this was not effective they would

01:03:22.759 --> 01:03:24.589
not be there because people get sick.

01:03:24.619 --> 01:03:24.739
Mm-hmm.

01:03:24.769 --> 01:03:26.629
And, you know, so.

01:03:28.009 --> 01:03:32.239
And then usually the people who are very
skeptical have nothing to say to that

01:03:32.929 --> 01:03:38.899
argument, but I do understand why they
have trouble accepting it, because of

01:03:38.899 --> 01:03:40.759
course, it's outside of their experience.

01:03:41.089 --> 01:03:45.799
What is it that you, you now have had
quite a lot of experience with this

01:03:45.799 --> 01:03:50.659
because after the horse boy, I know quite
a few autism families contacted you and

01:03:50.659 --> 01:03:53.119
also came out wanting to see shamans.

01:03:53.119 --> 01:03:56.479
You've, you, you've had a
lot more contact with it now.

01:03:56.839 --> 01:04:00.019
What do you think makes it so effective?

01:04:03.289 --> 01:04:08.999
Tulga Otgonbaatar: You said
earlier the clearing, caring,

01:04:09.059 --> 01:04:11.999
and healing is different.

01:04:13.389 --> 01:04:14.739
I totally agree with that.

01:04:15.309 --> 01:04:15.759
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:04:15.759 --> 01:04:22.369
Tulga Otgonbaatar: So the healing
power is something something they

01:04:22.369 --> 01:04:27.019
were given really determines Yes.

01:04:27.619 --> 01:04:28.549
Modern days.

01:04:28.969 --> 01:04:34.879
Now everyone know if we don't like
it, we say, I don't like you, I

01:04:34.879 --> 01:04:37.159
don't like it, so I don't trust it.

01:04:37.159 --> 01:04:40.069
So yes, it's, it's up to the people.

01:04:40.069 --> 01:04:41.179
Yes, that's fine.

01:04:42.109 --> 01:04:49.079
It so things like the
shamanism, shamans or who.

01:04:49.649 --> 01:04:53.699
Really believe in that and following it.

01:04:54.419 --> 01:04:55.859
And I do respect them.

01:04:56.669 --> 01:05:03.999
And in some, some, somehow it seems
a lot of people, they want a magic.

01:05:04.749 --> 01:05:05.109
Hmm.

01:05:06.099 --> 01:05:09.729
They want things to change immediately.

01:05:10.389 --> 01:05:15.039
They want to change now or
they want to change completely.

01:05:15.969 --> 01:05:21.099
I think it's the one of the ways I
mean, one of the expectations from

01:05:21.099 --> 01:05:27.789
the people when, whenever they see
the shamans or to do the ceremony, I

01:05:27.789 --> 01:05:32.259
think it seems it's a little bit of
diff different expectations, isn't it?

01:05:32.574 --> 01:05:32.994
Mm-hmm.

01:05:33.014 --> 01:05:33.294
And

01:05:35.304 --> 01:05:42.094
then, you know, afterwards or you know,
the ceremony happens, the healing happens.

01:05:42.634 --> 01:05:48.664
It's, it's, it's more of, you
know, healing than your body.

01:05:48.664 --> 01:05:54.934
It's the, the mind soul,
it's the energy itself.

01:05:54.964 --> 01:05:59.434
You know, things are, it's
a combination, I would say.

01:05:59.494 --> 01:06:00.574
It's a combination.

01:06:01.264 --> 01:06:06.844
You can't just, you know, it's also, you
know, the nature, beautiful nature and

01:06:06.844 --> 01:06:10.144
the animals, horses, it's everything.

01:06:10.204 --> 01:06:11.974
It's a combination of everything.

01:06:12.094 --> 01:06:12.634
I would say.

01:06:13.354 --> 01:06:20.444
To heal that the ones, whatever
the, the cause of the illness.

01:06:20.744 --> 01:06:24.854
So when you come to approach
the chairman to, to asking

01:06:25.544 --> 01:06:27.614
whatever the, the reason was.

01:06:27.614 --> 01:06:29.294
I think it's the combination.

01:06:29.294 --> 01:06:30.644
I would say yes.

01:06:30.744 --> 01:06:32.364
Channels can do the magic.

01:06:33.204 --> 01:06:34.014
I would say yes.

01:06:35.064 --> 01:06:39.204
Channels cannot do magic, I would say no.

01:06:39.894 --> 01:06:46.944
They just, you know, people nowadays,
they like to judge or they like to

01:06:46.944 --> 01:06:52.404
make a decisions before they try it.

01:06:52.644 --> 01:06:59.904
It seems a lot of people, I mean, they
try a little bit and they just give up.

01:07:00.744 --> 01:07:04.269
So things are like that.

01:07:05.304 --> 01:07:09.504
And more than days is quite,
quite a lot happening.

01:07:09.504 --> 01:07:10.974
A lot I would say

01:07:13.674 --> 01:07:14.064
yes.

01:07:14.064 --> 01:07:17.284
Whole tribe whole in the northern region.

01:07:17.894 --> 01:07:24.244
They still practice very strongly that
shamanic practices there very strong.

01:07:24.304 --> 01:07:27.694
And they still carry, carry, carry.

01:07:27.694 --> 01:07:30.704
These practice runs.

01:07:31.724 --> 01:07:34.574
Over the years and
years, so many years now.

01:07:35.414 --> 01:07:38.264
But, you know, they still believe in that.

01:07:39.014 --> 01:07:42.894
It's the, you know, the purpose is
not only, you know, the healing.

01:07:42.894 --> 01:07:45.564
It's not only, you know,
to do the magic words.

01:07:45.624 --> 01:07:47.424
It's just there practice.

01:07:47.424 --> 01:07:51.484
I think we should accept
it in that way too.

01:07:51.484 --> 01:07:52.834
In that way too.

01:07:57.154 --> 01:08:04.474
Rupert Isaacson: Have you, have, you
yourself sought out healing from some of

01:08:04.474 --> 01:08:06.784
the shaman since the horse voice story?

01:08:06.784 --> 01:08:09.394
Have you begun to use this in your life

01:08:10.894 --> 01:08:11.224
mm-hmm.

01:08:13.774 --> 01:08:15.994
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Since you left?

01:08:16.024 --> 01:08:21.304
I, I kind of worked more than 200 shas.

01:08:22.084 --> 01:08:22.414
Rupert Isaacson: Wow.

01:08:23.944 --> 01:08:24.304
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes.

01:08:24.304 --> 01:08:26.734
I just start to see more and more.

01:08:26.914 --> 01:08:28.564
There were new shamans.

01:08:29.064 --> 01:08:31.944
There were, you know, s
from the Western Mongolia.

01:08:31.944 --> 01:08:33.414
There were shamans in the Kirby.

01:08:34.344 --> 01:08:38.964
I was really excited to see them and
work with them and asking a lot of

01:08:38.964 --> 01:08:42.564
questions and try to appeal their energy.

01:08:42.904 --> 01:08:43.714
Ceremonies.

01:08:44.074 --> 01:08:45.124
So many ceremonies.

01:08:45.484 --> 01:08:46.774
So many ceremonies.

01:08:47.624 --> 01:08:52.574
Yes, I have been asking
and to do healing myself.

01:08:53.114 --> 01:08:54.164
No, not really.

01:08:54.164 --> 01:08:54.974
But you know,

01:08:57.134 --> 01:09:00.704
most of the time I was with someone else.

01:09:01.574 --> 01:09:05.634
And then I hadn't had much
of time to ask myself.

01:09:06.264 --> 01:09:10.754
And only a few questions, but
very practical questions like

01:09:11.204 --> 01:09:15.064
there's something which bother
me and I cannot achieve things.

01:09:15.454 --> 01:09:22.614
And I, I go, the chairman he said
he, he did his ceremony and he

01:09:22.614 --> 01:09:28.074
looked at me and said, I took there
was a key or tool of your car.

01:09:28.494 --> 01:09:32.514
You sold your car, you sold
it, and you kept, you kept

01:09:32.514 --> 01:09:34.704
the key or you know, the tool.

01:09:35.784 --> 01:09:38.984
But he said the key you
still have it extra key?

01:09:39.674 --> 01:09:47.454
And I said, no yes, I sold my car, but I,
I never thought I, I kept the, the key.

01:09:47.994 --> 01:09:50.844
And he, he said, it,
it might be some tool.

01:09:50.844 --> 01:09:57.444
You, you, you ha still have it that
is bothering, there's something

01:09:57.684 --> 01:10:03.724
causing for you to have, you
know, this kind of spiritual,

01:10:04.174 --> 01:10:07.354
spiritually new, spiritual mind new.

01:10:07.774 --> 01:10:09.994
So I said, okay, I'll check.

01:10:10.894 --> 01:10:13.334
Then then I came back and home.

01:10:14.474 --> 01:10:19.814
I went to my home and I
found the key, found the key.

01:10:20.114 --> 01:10:22.664
So I thought, Hmm, I've never known that.

01:10:22.664 --> 01:10:27.494
So then I had to dump it and
do some ceremonies to clear up.

01:10:27.499 --> 01:10:29.834
And this kind of magic really works.

01:10:30.494 --> 01:10:31.004
Yes.

01:10:31.054 --> 01:10:32.044
And what happened after

01:10:32.044 --> 01:10:32.854
Rupert Isaacson: you did that?

01:10:33.844 --> 01:10:41.304
Tulga Otgonbaatar: I think after that I
clearly, I was I clearly re remembered

01:10:41.394 --> 01:10:47.634
that because of, you know, I was, I
think I was trying to get something,

01:10:47.634 --> 01:10:51.084
but it didn't work so much on that.

01:10:51.714 --> 01:10:59.614
I thought I couldn't achieve it,
and it was related with something my

01:10:59.644 --> 01:11:04.264
financial situation and is related
to bank and things like that.

01:11:04.714 --> 01:11:10.584
So after that it just
smoothly smoothly fixed.

01:11:11.484 --> 01:11:11.754
Yeah.

01:11:12.504 --> 01:11:14.449
And I thought, wow, wow, wow.

01:11:15.684 --> 01:11:17.034
Yes, it worked.

01:11:17.604 --> 01:11:22.494
So other than that, I've never
had that feeling for myself

01:11:22.494 --> 01:11:25.124
only, you know, I was chatting.

01:11:26.729 --> 01:11:28.979
Ghost the shaman and
the other shamans a lot.

01:11:29.009 --> 01:11:36.679
What happens if I do this and that once
if I meet the load of the mountain, in the

01:11:36.679 --> 01:11:43.459
mountain that kind of questions I, I've
have had, I mean, conversations a lot.

01:11:47.119 --> 01:11:49.399
Rupert Isaacson: What was his
answer to What happens if you

01:11:49.399 --> 01:11:50.509
meet the Lord of the mountain?

01:11:50.569 --> 01:11:52.609
And also what is the Lord of the mountain?

01:11:52.999 --> 01:11:55.249
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Oh yes.

01:11:55.299 --> 01:12:01.389
The Lord of the mountain, the Mongolia,
every big mountains and big rivers

01:12:01.579 --> 01:12:06.869
rivers, they have a master who owns it.

01:12:07.859 --> 01:12:10.199
And we have to be respectful.

01:12:10.949 --> 01:12:12.629
Otherwise, they get angry.

01:12:13.319 --> 01:12:15.389
If they get angry, they could hurt you.

01:12:17.099 --> 01:12:25.439
So then once, and it's when
there was a time I was chatting

01:12:25.439 --> 01:12:27.519
with the chairman about it.

01:12:27.519 --> 01:12:33.459
So I felt a lot of the
mountain maybe is quite scary.

01:12:34.149 --> 01:12:36.919
It can be quite aggressive.

01:12:37.879 --> 01:12:40.279
'cause someone new, hearing new.

01:12:40.279 --> 01:12:44.944
So he might hurt me because no, no, all.

01:12:45.584 --> 01:12:47.234
He wouldn't dare to hurt you.

01:12:48.164 --> 01:12:54.494
Only thing if you, if you do bad
things, then he can hurt you.

01:12:55.004 --> 01:13:01.154
So what would be his, you know,
I was asked, asked him what the

01:13:01.724 --> 01:13:07.064
creature, you know, I could tell,
oh, he's the, the lord of a mountain.

01:13:08.234 --> 01:13:11.774
How can I recognize
the Lord of a mountain?

01:13:12.584 --> 01:13:16.364
So the said, oh, it's simple.

01:13:16.754 --> 01:13:25.884
He can, he can come out like a small
boy or the beautiful deer or a bear.

01:13:26.694 --> 01:13:30.594
It can, you know, it can be anything.

01:13:30.994 --> 01:13:32.884
But you don't have to be afraid of.

01:13:34.534 --> 01:13:42.784
Only thing I is afraid of is you know,
the bad spirits who's been too old and

01:13:43.024 --> 01:13:53.434
too naughty too I mean, lived long and
starting to starting to give them the,

01:13:53.584 --> 01:13:55.684
you know, the bad energies to people.

01:13:56.014 --> 01:13:58.874
Then you have to be a very aware of that.

01:13:58.934 --> 01:14:00.374
I remember that he said.

01:14:01.004 --> 01:14:03.434
So then, then.

01:14:04.064 --> 01:14:07.934
I asked him, what happens if that's bad?

01:14:08.444 --> 01:14:11.534
There's a ghost, or it's like a devil.

01:14:12.334 --> 01:14:13.234
Take it over me.

01:14:14.194 --> 01:14:18.874
Can I just, you know, get, get
rid of, get rid of it by myself?

01:14:19.714 --> 01:14:21.364
He said, no, you can't.

01:14:22.174 --> 01:14:23.704
You need someone like me.

01:14:24.664 --> 01:14:28.684
That was, he said, that was very
interesting conversation we had.

01:14:30.904 --> 01:14:35.274
Rupert Isaacson: And one of the things I,
well one of the things I suspect is that

01:14:37.734 --> 01:14:45.234
through having brought so many people
to see the shamans in the last 20

01:14:45.234 --> 01:14:50.814
years you have been present at a lot
of healing ceremonies, I presume.

01:14:51.594 --> 01:14:56.904
And just as I have, you know, I've been
present at a lot of ceremonies from in

01:14:56.904 --> 01:14:59.934
many, many different countries, um mm-hmm.

01:15:00.204 --> 01:15:01.644
Usually for other people.

01:15:02.124 --> 01:15:08.394
And I think what happens when
one does this is you of course,

01:15:08.394 --> 01:15:10.314
always get healing as well.

01:15:10.944 --> 01:15:16.734
And I think there's also something
healing about arranging healings for other

01:15:16.734 --> 01:15:22.584
people, and then of course, so that's what
that, that's healing in and of itself.

01:15:22.584 --> 01:15:24.294
Then the second thing is.

01:15:24.729 --> 01:15:29.649
You are there during the ceremony, some
of that energy is going to come to you.

01:15:30.399 --> 01:15:37.029
And I like you, I, I spent
so many years helping people

01:15:40.899 --> 01:15:47.649
find shamans and healers and not
just my son, but you know, other

01:15:47.649 --> 01:15:49.089
people for other reasons too.

01:15:49.089 --> 01:15:49.269
Thank you.

01:15:49.749 --> 01:15:50.199
Say what?

01:15:50.259 --> 01:15:51.999
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yeah, thank you.

01:15:51.999 --> 01:15:53.709
That's a lovely compliment.

01:15:54.189 --> 01:15:55.719
Rupert Isaacson: Well, yeah.

01:15:55.719 --> 01:15:59.649
You, you've, you've, you've really helped
to heal a lot of people and Of course.

01:15:59.649 --> 01:16:03.159
So therefore you have received
a lot of healing yourself.

01:16:03.849 --> 01:16:03.939
Yes.

01:16:05.949 --> 01:16:18.789
The, the first time I think that I really
went just for myself was I think 2018.

01:16:18.969 --> 01:16:25.839
And then I did it again in 2021 with
the, with the healer that I, on the

01:16:25.839 --> 01:16:31.299
Navajo reservation that I took Rowan to
at the last of the three healings that

01:16:31.299 --> 01:16:33.939
the Mongolian Shaman GOs told me to do.

01:16:34.629 --> 01:16:40.269
And it took me all those years
before I went for my own healing.

01:16:41.649 --> 01:16:41.709
Mm.

01:16:41.919 --> 01:16:47.199
But I think that I have
really benefited from.

01:16:48.264 --> 01:16:53.604
Being part of those ceremonies and, and
arranging those ceremonies for others.

01:16:53.604 --> 01:16:55.254
And I think the same has happened to you.

01:16:55.254 --> 01:17:01.224
I think that you've been a catalyst
for the healing for many, many people.

01:17:01.794 --> 01:17:09.414
And this must have, you know, had a
very good effect on you because I'm,

01:17:09.474 --> 01:17:11.394
I'm sitting here looking at you.

01:17:11.394 --> 01:17:14.484
You are nearly 60.

01:17:14.484 --> 01:17:15.204
You look great.

01:17:15.474 --> 01:17:17.004
You know, your health is good.

01:17:17.004 --> 01:17:19.884
You, you, you, you still have
the air of a, of a young man.

01:17:21.024 --> 01:17:21.264
Um

01:17:23.669 --> 01:17:24.089
mm-hmm.

01:17:24.474 --> 01:17:30.834
Tell us some of the, the
other people who've come now

01:17:31.134 --> 01:17:32.694
through you to see healers.

01:17:32.694 --> 01:17:37.104
There must be certain stories that
stand out, not just the horse boy

01:17:37.104 --> 01:17:39.354
story, but there must be Yeah.

01:17:39.354 --> 01:17:44.484
Certain other people that you brought
that have had really strong healings.

01:17:44.484 --> 01:17:46.704
Can you tell us any of these?

01:17:48.834 --> 01:17:49.344
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Wow.

01:17:49.464 --> 01:17:50.544
Where can I start?

01:17:51.324 --> 01:17:59.244
I think, you know, when the book was
released, it's 2009, there was a huge

01:17:59.244 --> 01:18:06.784
thing from Mongolia, even now, the
Mongolian tourism few of my the tourist.

01:18:07.204 --> 01:18:13.914
Company's friends who work and chosen
company or run the company's dimensions.

01:18:13.914 --> 01:18:20.364
You know, half of their tourist
clients when they come, they all read

01:18:22.964 --> 01:18:30.014
the book, the book, the Horse Boy, and
the other half already purchased and they,

01:18:30.014 --> 01:18:33.524
they wanted to read it during the trip.

01:18:34.484 --> 01:18:34.754
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:18:35.174 --> 01:18:39.504
Tulga Otgonbaatar: And I've met so
many of them and the Mon in Mongolia,

01:18:40.104 --> 01:18:47.484
they reading the book, the Horse
Boy, I always, you know, I was

01:18:47.544 --> 01:18:50.064
always impressed and were happy.

01:18:50.634 --> 01:18:54.404
And there's a question I
was, I always ask, which part

01:18:54.914 --> 01:18:57.674
do you enjoy it more, most?

01:18:59.234 --> 01:19:04.264
And then they carry on to talking
about, you know, the nine shaman

01:19:04.264 --> 01:19:07.024
ceremonies, the whipping part.

01:19:07.654 --> 01:19:07.774
Wow.

01:19:08.554 --> 01:19:12.784
This is, this is the part that
people, people always bring it up.

01:19:13.459 --> 01:19:19.939
Bring it out and want to talk or want
to share that that part of the story.

01:19:20.419 --> 01:19:26.359
So I always, you know, to tell
them stories and how it went and

01:19:26.459 --> 01:19:28.529
and I was happy to share them.

01:19:29.039 --> 01:19:29.909
What happens in there.

01:19:30.179 --> 01:19:36.729
And also there were some other stories
behind the story, behind it's like

01:19:36.729 --> 01:19:43.909
behind the scene which I've never
told, I think to told you some of them.

01:19:45.109 --> 01:19:48.749
I would like to share that
maybe just a little bit.

01:19:49.349 --> 01:19:57.819
Then it just changed a lot the perspective
of tourism in Mongolia before the horse

01:19:57.819 --> 01:20:01.349
board movie in two thousands 10 ish.

01:20:02.069 --> 01:20:09.569
And the, all, the, most of the movies
about Mongolia were not a good side.

01:20:09.569 --> 01:20:10.229
I would say.

01:20:10.949 --> 01:20:13.349
They were mentioning about three children.

01:20:13.379 --> 01:20:19.019
They were mentioning about, you know,
Mongolia, the whole economy is going

01:20:19.019 --> 01:20:23.339
down, but the countryside is beautiful,
but still, there's something, you know,

01:20:23.339 --> 01:20:27.339
going and not really happening, but the.

01:20:28.119 --> 01:20:30.009
Horse Boy Booty came out.

01:20:30.399 --> 01:20:35.709
I think it changed quite a lot, quite
a lot of, you know, the movie makers.

01:20:35.819 --> 01:20:40.709
They, they started to see Mongolias in
another beautiful country and also Wow.

01:20:40.739 --> 01:20:43.489
It's the country itself is just different.

01:20:43.519 --> 01:20:44.929
The shamanism Wow.

01:20:45.499 --> 01:20:51.459
Has seemed, there's so many the videos
came, I mean, come out about the

01:20:51.459 --> 01:20:59.499
shamanism in Koreans, French well, I'm
not sure who else, who else did it.

01:20:59.949 --> 01:21:05.989
So it changed a lot in the
the tourism back, the tourism

01:21:05.989 --> 01:21:09.109
perspective while in the meeting.

01:21:09.109 --> 01:21:11.719
A lot of shamans Wow.

01:21:11.719 --> 01:21:15.469
Things changed a lot after that.

01:21:15.949 --> 01:21:20.389
Then all of a sudden, the whole
Mongolia, you know, start to change.

01:21:20.749 --> 01:21:23.959
People start to practice
shamanism after that a lot.

01:21:24.829 --> 01:21:31.129
And the, the ones now,
then they're not normal.

01:21:31.639 --> 01:21:33.889
They start thinking themselves around.

01:21:34.489 --> 01:21:35.509
They can be shaman.

01:21:36.109 --> 01:21:36.829
Rupert Isaacson: Ah, yes.

01:21:37.459 --> 01:21:42.589
Tulga Otgonbaatar: And then a couple
of years later, they have to stop it.

01:21:43.399 --> 01:21:46.489
So that's why I wanted to see a lot.

01:21:47.134 --> 01:21:52.464
Germans throughout Mongolia and
to have conversation, conversation

01:21:52.824 --> 01:21:58.904
and to try that the ceremonies,
whether it's really happening or not.

01:21:58.994 --> 01:21:59.804
Mm-hmm.

01:21:59.864 --> 01:22:04.094
And of course it was boom,
there was boom in Mongolia.

01:22:04.664 --> 01:22:09.484
And again, when you mentioned
people criticized a lot.

01:22:10.324 --> 01:22:13.234
Yes, it happens in Mongolia as well.

01:22:13.984 --> 01:22:18.484
And every time there was
a big criticism happening.

01:22:18.544 --> 01:22:23.219
The chairman's always, you know,
they said, Hey, if you don't believe

01:22:23.219 --> 01:22:25.684
it, watch the movie The Horse Boy.

01:22:25.924 --> 01:22:28.624
There's a movie, there's
a real shaman movie.

01:22:29.074 --> 01:22:30.214
Hey, you need to watch it.

01:22:30.664 --> 01:22:31.924
This is something like that.

01:22:31.924 --> 01:22:40.359
So, I think in, in the world of this cha
sha shamanism or shamanic practices, the

01:22:40.899 --> 01:22:49.839
horse boy had stepped too, too deep and
there was big, huge movement left there.

01:22:50.199 --> 01:22:50.619
Pains.

01:22:51.159 --> 01:22:57.419
Then yes experiencing a lot of
shamanic ceremonies, I think.

01:22:58.319 --> 01:23:00.749
In each time I could feel it.

01:23:00.779 --> 01:23:01.379
Yes.

01:23:01.619 --> 01:23:07.019
It just happening whenever I
start feeling just happening.

01:23:07.459 --> 01:23:08.869
It's just, yes.

01:23:09.359 --> 01:23:10.229
The work, the work.

01:23:10.559 --> 01:23:15.239
When you describe Catalyzer, so
I think Catalyzer, this is, I

01:23:15.239 --> 01:23:17.669
really liked it, so yes, it does.

01:23:18.394 --> 01:23:19.709
I I haven't come up.

01:23:19.829 --> 01:23:25.809
The point I wanted to hear myself with
the shaman, I think in each time the

01:23:25.809 --> 01:23:30.739
ceremony is happening there's some of, I
mean, some of shamans, they are already

01:23:31.279 --> 01:23:36.284
better mind and, and they gave me a good
energy and some, some of them, some small

01:23:36.524 --> 01:23:39.504
ceremonies even I experienced it for sure.

01:23:40.884 --> 01:23:46.704
And I have a few good German friends
now in the Northern Mongolia and

01:23:46.704 --> 01:23:54.524
some somewhere, which is, yes, things
are now, I mean, coming back to,

01:23:54.584 --> 01:23:59.354
you know, there's so many of them
became Germans and had to stop.

01:23:59.744 --> 01:24:07.304
So I think Mongolia, we, we, we had
to, you know, we'd gone through and

01:24:07.304 --> 01:24:09.484
that's the big test I would say.

01:24:09.964 --> 01:24:17.174
And now the real shamans or shamanism
still practicing here and there and

01:24:17.254 --> 01:24:21.514
it just a little bit, you know, to
cool it down, but still, you know,

01:24:21.514 --> 01:24:28.114
the people still very strongly
living shamanism and following it.

01:24:28.954 --> 01:24:34.954
Well, to me, sadly when the
people, they only needed it,

01:24:35.944 --> 01:24:39.604
they go and ask to help them.

01:24:40.354 --> 01:24:46.534
Not practicing it, not respecting
it, just only I want to, you

01:24:46.534 --> 01:24:48.094
know, to get something from you.

01:24:48.094 --> 01:24:48.814
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:24:49.534 --> 01:24:54.154
Tulga Otgonbaatar: I can pay you,
I can pay you, I can, that's fine.

01:24:54.424 --> 01:24:59.079
But you know, you need to understand
what is it, and you need to, you

01:24:59.084 --> 01:25:01.734
know, I respect and practice it.

01:25:02.124 --> 01:25:05.754
Then it just, you know, things,
things would go in order.

01:25:06.264 --> 01:25:09.324
Otherwise you just,
you know, it's trading.

01:25:09.654 --> 01:25:11.904
Sadly it happens a lot.

01:25:12.264 --> 01:25:16.614
Then sometimes I could say, hmm,
things not working that way.

01:25:17.424 --> 01:25:17.694
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:25:17.744 --> 01:25:20.564
I think, I think that that one
could say the same thing though

01:25:20.564 --> 01:25:23.594
about Western medicine and that
people will go to see a doctor.

01:25:24.404 --> 01:25:27.584
But whether one follows the
doctor's recommendations.

01:25:28.664 --> 01:25:32.744
Or what, what people
sometimes do, sometimes don't.

01:25:33.414 --> 01:25:35.154
Not every doctor is a good doctor.

01:25:35.794 --> 01:25:39.064
Some doctors misdiagnose and are arrogant.

01:25:39.064 --> 01:25:39.184
Mm-hmm.

01:25:39.634 --> 01:25:42.064
Others doctors are very
humble and very good.

01:25:42.694 --> 01:25:44.014
You don't know till you try.

01:25:44.914 --> 01:25:49.324
But the system of medicine as
a whole is a very good thing.

01:25:49.684 --> 01:25:53.314
And I would say that's quite
similar within the Shamanic.

01:25:53.314 --> 01:25:58.384
And I think you're right, that in, in
the last 20 years, there were a lot

01:25:58.384 --> 01:26:09.304
of people who felt a desire to become
shamans who were not going to go through

01:26:09.304 --> 01:26:16.714
the rigorous three decades of training
with a man like Ghost Up in Siberia, or

01:26:17.219 --> 01:26:23.464
that, that it takes to really actually
do this in the same, it would be a

01:26:23.464 --> 01:26:26.254
little bit like saying, well, I want
to be a medical doctor, but I'm not

01:26:26.254 --> 01:26:27.664
really gonna go to medical school.

01:26:27.784 --> 01:26:28.114
You know?

01:26:28.534 --> 01:26:29.344
Um mm-hmm.

01:26:29.584 --> 01:26:31.114
Well, yeah.

01:26:31.249 --> 01:26:35.749
But what is also true with this is
that, you know, and the, the Bushman

01:26:35.749 --> 01:26:40.309
in Africa say this a lot, that they
say about 50% of people can heal.

01:26:41.149 --> 01:26:49.309
But a much smaller minority of those
people have a, if you like a vocational.

01:26:49.759 --> 01:26:56.179
Pull, but you still need this system of
training if it's really going to work.

01:26:56.179 --> 01:26:59.329
And this system of training
is about three decades.

01:26:59.329 --> 01:26:59.389
Yeah.

01:26:59.569 --> 01:27:01.039
It's, it's very, very long.

01:27:01.249 --> 01:27:06.619
Which of course, if you're living in
the community where you are practicing

01:27:06.619 --> 01:27:10.129
your healing, but you're also a hunter
or you're a reindeer herder, or you're

01:27:10.129 --> 01:27:17.449
a horse herder or whatever, well, your
apprenticeship to the older shaman is just

01:27:17.449 --> 01:27:19.579
going to be built in to your way of life.

01:27:19.579 --> 01:27:23.869
But if you are yeah, living in
the city trying to have a job and

01:27:24.319 --> 01:27:30.319
doing this on the weekends, this is
difficult because you are not you're

01:27:30.319 --> 01:27:32.539
not really immersed in that world.

01:27:32.809 --> 01:27:37.369
And I could see how even in Mongolia,
particularly in the city in where

01:27:37.369 --> 01:27:42.529
people would've felt perhaps a real
with desire to connect with that

01:27:42.529 --> 01:27:48.979
culture, but without really living that
culture, there could have been a boom

01:27:49.009 --> 01:27:53.689
in, let's say not so good practice.

01:27:54.349 --> 01:27:58.309
But as you say, once that cools off,
then the people who are still living

01:27:58.309 --> 01:28:03.109
out in the remote rural district,
practic this thing that they've always

01:28:03.109 --> 01:28:04.669
practiced, well, they're still there.

01:28:05.219 --> 01:28:10.649
And those people are independent
of fashions or, or fads.

01:28:10.654 --> 01:28:10.664
Mm-hmm.

01:28:12.689 --> 01:28:15.659
That said, probably some of the
people within Mongo, within Ula

01:28:15.659 --> 01:28:20.519
Batar itself probably were good
healers or perhaps still are.

01:28:20.639 --> 01:28:25.349
But just, yeah, maybe not with
access to the best mentorship.

01:28:25.959 --> 01:28:30.699
But in terms of you, you know, you've
been going all over the country now

01:28:30.699 --> 01:28:33.819
and been exposed to a lot of healers.

01:28:34.089 --> 01:28:38.379
Have you seen some similar types of
story to Rowans to the Horse Boy?

01:28:38.589 --> 01:28:43.329
Have you seen some healings that
really did leave a lasting change

01:28:47.704 --> 01:28:50.319
Tulga Otgonbaatar: in last 20 years?

01:28:50.949 --> 01:28:55.549
I have worked quite a few families.

01:28:55.819 --> 01:28:56.179
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

01:28:57.029 --> 01:29:01.439
As you may know, if you've been following
my work, we are also horsey folk here.

01:29:01.944 --> 01:29:06.434
And we have been training horses for
many, many years in the manner of

01:29:06.484 --> 01:29:09.644
the old classical dressage masters.

01:29:10.074 --> 01:29:12.864
This is something which is
often very confusing for people.

01:29:13.254 --> 01:29:18.254
We shine a light on that murky, difficult
stuff and make it crystal clear.

01:29:18.514 --> 01:29:23.344
If you'd like to learn to train your
horse in the manner of the old masters and

01:29:23.344 --> 01:29:29.144
really have fun and joy for you and your
equine, go to our website, heliosharmony.

01:29:29.144 --> 01:29:31.474
com Sign up as a premium member.

01:29:31.794 --> 01:29:35.804
and begin to take the Helios Harmony
course, which will take you from zero

01:29:36.274 --> 01:29:41.404
to the Piaf, where the horse is dancing
on the spot in hand on the ground.

01:29:41.994 --> 01:29:45.704
And then from there, you can
develop out to anywhere you want to.

01:29:46.664 --> 01:29:47.404
Heliosharmony.

01:29:47.914 --> 01:29:51.584
com to unlock the secrets
of the old masters.

01:29:52.039 --> 01:29:54.909
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Some of them
received a recommendation from you

01:29:55.899 --> 01:29:58.419
and some of them found me internet.

01:29:59.169 --> 01:29:59.589
Yes,

01:30:02.619 --> 01:30:06.229
I think there was a
family they came to Lia.

01:30:06.279 --> 01:30:08.889
They were, they're, they're from New York.

01:30:10.029 --> 01:30:15.329
And we've, we took it
quite shorter trip than us.

01:30:15.809 --> 01:30:18.299
So ours were quite a long one.

01:30:18.989 --> 01:30:20.969
Lasted like four weeks, isn't it?

01:30:21.449 --> 01:30:21.779
Mm.

01:30:21.869 --> 01:30:31.239
In, then, then with that family we
had about a couple of weeks and that

01:30:31.269 --> 01:30:38.399
time the ghost chairman, he was alive
and we were sticking to, to see him.

01:30:38.969 --> 01:30:41.369
And yes, we did see him as well.

01:30:41.789 --> 01:30:46.529
And we had the ceremonies of

01:30:49.949 --> 01:30:58.569
city and mom wasn't, was like, I told
why it's not happening in the book.

01:30:58.899 --> 01:31:00.039
It worked immediately.

01:31:00.279 --> 01:31:01.659
The boy changed immediately.

01:31:02.199 --> 01:31:04.029
Mm-hmm.

01:31:04.080 --> 01:31:05.820
Why is not, isn't happening.

01:31:06.540 --> 01:31:09.030
So I was like, okay.

01:31:09.360 --> 01:31:10.740
Every kid is different.

01:31:11.520 --> 01:31:12.390
We have to wait.

01:31:13.860 --> 01:31:18.950
We need to be we, because it's, it's
the only I mean it's not only Germans.

01:31:18.950 --> 01:31:21.440
We, we need to take the trip.

01:31:21.440 --> 01:31:24.180
Whole trip is about for that kid.

01:31:25.770 --> 01:31:31.000
And the kid was like his
4-year-old and no speaking.

01:31:31.735 --> 01:31:39.165
He, he's like going around, let me all
this the autistic kids, about 4, 5, 6

01:31:39.165 --> 01:31:43.905
year olds, they just run and run and
pick up things where he was more like

01:31:43.905 --> 01:31:46.895
addicted to picking up cigarette butts.

01:31:47.315 --> 01:31:53.485
'cause he, in Mongolia, you can find
them so easily nowadays a bit different.

01:31:53.485 --> 01:31:57.685
But, you know, by the time it was,
and he was like picking up the secret

01:31:57.685 --> 01:32:04.065
butts and if there is know alcohol
around, he's quite, you know, into it.

01:32:04.575 --> 01:32:10.695
And the bo you know, shop the
supermarkets, he goes up there

01:32:10.905 --> 01:32:13.725
and, you know, pointing to
whiskeys and things like that.

01:32:13.905 --> 01:32:14.955
So I thought, Hmm.

01:32:15.405 --> 01:32:17.625
A very old spirit.

01:32:18.675 --> 01:32:26.405
So he did, he didn't talk in the he could,
you know, turn back if we call his name.

01:32:27.185 --> 01:32:33.525
And then we, we were riding, we
rode horses up to her mountains and

01:32:33.855 --> 01:32:37.095
exactly the same route we have taken.

01:32:37.875 --> 01:32:38.085
Yeah.

01:32:38.085 --> 01:32:45.990
And we, we have seen ghost shaman and he
did some ceremony and then we went down

01:32:46.050 --> 01:32:52.040
and the mom still, you know, species, and
I said, I told guys it's not happening.

01:32:52.820 --> 01:32:53.720
It's not happening.

01:32:55.970 --> 01:32:56.780
No words.

01:32:56.780 --> 01:33:00.900
So we made, we may just, you
know, have to wait a bit.

01:33:01.710 --> 01:33:04.410
Every kid is different, you know.

01:33:04.410 --> 01:33:08.410
Then there was out
driving and driving them.

01:33:08.470 --> 01:33:10.090
The whole family is with me.

01:33:10.270 --> 01:33:15.680
And when we get to the Moin town
you know, there were the same place.

01:33:15.680 --> 01:33:19.520
We stayed in Moin Town, as you
know, remember this small girl

01:33:21.170 --> 01:33:25.230
and there was a big the White
House apartment in a house like

01:33:25.710 --> 01:33:28.020
restaurants and two, this is in Moron?

01:33:28.110 --> 01:33:29.040
Yeah, I remember this.

01:33:29.045 --> 01:33:29.175
Yeah.

01:33:29.310 --> 01:33:30.090
In Moron Town.

01:33:30.090 --> 01:33:30.390
Yes.

01:33:30.390 --> 01:33:30.570
Yeah.

01:33:30.620 --> 01:33:37.895
When, when I was driving and just
into that, the camp then he, he

01:33:37.895 --> 01:33:43.025
turned to his mom they were sitting
next to and said, mom, I love you.

01:33:43.745 --> 01:33:44.375
Wow.

01:33:46.145 --> 01:33:47.405
That was shocking.

01:33:47.435 --> 01:33:48.085
And wow.

01:33:48.135 --> 01:33:51.255
She was in tears like an hour.

01:33:52.695 --> 01:33:58.335
And I think that was a very much, one of
the very much good moments in my life.

01:33:58.455 --> 01:34:01.355
And we both had to stay in the car.

01:34:01.385 --> 01:34:06.655
I mean, we all had to stay in the car
a little bit and I mean, take it, I

01:34:06.655 --> 01:34:09.185
mean to take, I mean, to calm down.

01:34:09.575 --> 01:34:13.025
We need to, we need to take,
take it a really long time.

01:34:13.565 --> 01:34:17.045
So the boy just came out
from the car, run, run, run.

01:34:17.615 --> 01:34:22.385
Meanwhile, our cook and the, the
others were looking after the

01:34:22.385 --> 01:34:26.855
bags and things, but still moming
the car and those still crying.

01:34:27.545 --> 01:34:28.025
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

01:34:28.295 --> 01:34:31.615
Tulga Otgonbaatar: I think
there was a, a very big moment.

01:34:33.655 --> 01:34:33.895
Yeah.

01:34:33.895 --> 01:34:34.795
That's life changing.

01:34:35.575 --> 01:34:40.675
I, I've witnessed, so I
still, I still remember that.

01:34:40.675 --> 01:34:47.485
So since then, yes, if you, if you, if
you, that magical moment is like, that

01:34:47.485 --> 01:34:54.055
happened to me, but it's, I think this
one still sits in my mind so strongly.

01:34:54.415 --> 01:34:55.315
So strongly.

01:34:57.925 --> 01:35:00.295
Rupert Isaacson: Ghost was
such a powerful shaman.

01:35:00.595 --> 01:35:01.405
He's now

01:35:02.155 --> 01:35:02.695
no

01:35:02.695 --> 01:35:03.565
longer with us.

01:35:04.255 --> 01:35:04.645
No.

01:35:05.065 --> 01:35:10.675
Are there still people up there in
that area or other areas of Mongolia?

01:35:10.705 --> 01:35:13.405
'cause you are still
traveling to all these places.

01:35:14.005 --> 01:35:17.515
Are there still some very, very good
challenge that you would recommend?

01:35:17.515 --> 01:35:18.205
At this point

01:35:20.455 --> 01:35:22.975
Tulga Otgonbaatar: there
are two, three, yes.

01:35:23.955 --> 01:35:25.815
Because this, the shamanism.

01:35:27.075 --> 01:35:36.635
Staff is passing all knowledge or
spirit to the next one or the student.

01:35:37.115 --> 01:35:43.365
Mainly it's relative or father
to son, a mother to son.

01:35:44.355 --> 01:35:45.045
It's like that.

01:35:45.045 --> 01:35:45.975
It's just happening.

01:35:47.265 --> 01:35:47.745
Where are the

01:35:47.745 --> 01:35:51.405
Rupert Isaacson: areas where
you would say, you know, these

01:35:51.915 --> 01:35:53.535
handful of really good shams,

01:35:57.135 --> 01:35:59.565
Tulga Otgonbaatar: we
call it tiger, it's just

01:35:59.615 --> 01:35:59.945
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

01:36:00.755 --> 01:36:04.765
Tulga Otgonbaatar: And the Siberian,
the forest area, Siberian Post area.

01:36:04.765 --> 01:36:05.485
Exactly.

01:36:06.055 --> 01:36:12.215
So, there are two places in East
and wet, so both of them has

01:36:12.845 --> 01:36:15.815
shamans you know, to work with them.

01:36:19.385 --> 01:36:27.755
There's good, there are even, you know,
the ghost shaman's sister, he, I mean she,

01:36:28.835 --> 01:36:37.005
she has all the knowledge and energy and
I like to see, to see her sometimes or we

01:36:37.005 --> 01:36:42.050
still in contact in in in a phone calling.

01:36:42.740 --> 01:36:46.030
And now this, this social
media is so strong.

01:36:46.300 --> 01:36:46.570
Mm-hmm.

01:36:46.600 --> 01:36:48.490
We send messages through it.

01:36:49.010 --> 01:36:52.100
So that was her birthday today.

01:36:52.490 --> 01:36:55.360
And I've sent greetings and like that.

01:36:55.360 --> 01:36:57.560
So, please send her greeting from

01:36:57.560 --> 01:36:58.160
Rupert Isaacson: me too.

01:36:59.150 --> 01:37:00.260
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Sure, I will.

01:37:00.380 --> 01:37:02.600
Yeah, I will definitely.

01:37:02.720 --> 01:37:06.480
With I will, I will
snapshot this one, please.

01:37:06.780 --> 01:37:07.230
Yes.

01:37:07.320 --> 01:37:09.090
Whenever we finish it.

01:37:09.090 --> 01:37:10.890
So then I'll send it to her.

01:37:11.550 --> 01:37:12.720
Look, look, look.

01:37:13.260 --> 01:37:17.480
And she still, I mean, she
still remembers you, knows you.

01:37:17.870 --> 01:37:20.550
'cause when you were
there, she was there too.

01:37:21.030 --> 01:37:25.470
And assisting because the
shaman ceremony of that.

01:37:25.475 --> 01:37:25.515
Okay.

01:37:25.520 --> 01:37:31.890
So now she took a all the spirits
and energy healing from him.

01:37:32.370 --> 01:37:38.010
So he le she lives in Ola City,
not in the in the mountain anymore.

01:37:38.670 --> 01:37:39.000
Okay.

01:37:39.055 --> 01:37:45.625
Her kids grown up and he chosen, she
chose to leave it here, to live up here.

01:37:46.045 --> 01:37:48.285
So, yes, I like Is she practicing her

01:37:48.285 --> 01:37:52.245
Rupert Isaacson: healing in, in
the city now or up in the tiger?

01:37:53.955 --> 01:37:56.985
Tulga Otgonbaatar: It seems it
seems she doesn't receive people.

01:37:57.675 --> 01:38:03.065
Every single people, she reject
rejects people and she likes to do it

01:38:03.425 --> 01:38:11.315
both in the mountain and also in the
city seems, but she, she would say,

01:38:11.345 --> 01:38:13.745
she could say no, she could refuse.

01:38:14.405 --> 01:38:20.575
And some of, I mean, some, sometimes
I receive requests whether they

01:38:20.575 --> 01:38:25.025
want to see very strong Germans
not far away from the city.

01:38:25.085 --> 01:38:32.755
So I tried to recommend her and were,
she refused some of them already.

01:38:32.755 --> 01:38:38.305
So that means, but some
reasons they're not sure.

01:38:38.515 --> 01:38:39.295
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, sure.

01:38:39.295 --> 01:38:43.675
I mean, I guess, I guess they have to,
this is always the, this is always the

01:38:43.675 --> 01:38:47.785
risk one takes when one goes to see
a shaman and the shaman may say, this

01:38:47.785 --> 01:38:49.765
one is not for me, for whatever reason.

01:38:50.275 --> 01:38:55.165
But you say that she's living in the
city, but she still goes up to the

01:38:55.525 --> 01:38:55.735
Yeah.

01:38:56.185 --> 01:38:59.245
Cobs school area to be Yes, exactly.

01:38:59.245 --> 01:38:59.665
Her people.

01:39:00.510 --> 01:39:00.800
Okay.

01:39:00.900 --> 01:39:01.120
Yes.

01:39:01.135 --> 01:39:01.480
To her

01:39:01.480 --> 01:39:01.640
Tulga Otgonbaatar: people.

01:39:01.885 --> 01:39:03.175
Summertime mainly.

01:39:03.175 --> 01:39:08.545
And yes, the, the east is still,
see two of the shamans there.

01:39:08.815 --> 01:39:13.885
So one of them got really old
even so I respect him and, not

01:39:13.975 --> 01:39:18.145
to do, you know, the bigger
ceremonies, but smaller ones mm-hmm.

01:39:18.385 --> 01:39:19.195
He could handle.

01:39:19.645 --> 01:39:23.155
And another person nearby,
another family is there.

01:39:23.455 --> 01:39:25.345
So very strong.

01:39:25.345 --> 01:39:29.565
And I have been working with
him so many years originally.

01:39:31.095 --> 01:39:32.200
Few of them in that.

01:39:32.205 --> 01:39:33.015
And these are also

01:39:33.015 --> 01:39:33.915
Rupert Isaacson: reindeer herders?

01:39:35.095 --> 01:39:37.160
Tulga Otgonbaatar: One, only one
of them is not the others are.

01:39:37.180 --> 01:39:37.400
Yes.

01:39:37.870 --> 01:39:38.160
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:39:38.775 --> 01:39:39.675
So interesting.

01:39:39.675 --> 01:39:43.185
And then you were also saying that you
were working, you know, a lot in the

01:39:43.185 --> 01:39:47.205
west that earlier in this conversation
you said that you had, you know,

01:39:47.205 --> 01:39:49.095
met chairmans all over Mongolia.

01:39:49.095 --> 01:39:49.785
Of course.

01:39:51.225 --> 01:39:55.875
Do you feel that there are other
places too where you've met

01:39:55.875 --> 01:39:58.155
people who are really strong?

01:39:58.755 --> 01:40:01.245
Or do you feel it's really
just the tiger region?

01:40:03.615 --> 01:40:06.435
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Well,
it's a very good question.

01:40:06.435 --> 01:40:13.775
I think because it's, I would say
sometimes I thought the region helps,

01:40:15.125 --> 01:40:22.035
you know, to, to become really strong,
powerful shamans, but seems not

01:40:22.035 --> 01:40:29.205
necessarily northeast northeast Mongolia,
we have very strong channels too.

01:40:29.945 --> 01:40:33.900
And Kby, there was one was
various and I worked with him.

01:40:34.685 --> 01:40:42.075
And I could feel the energy and
humbleness is really nice, but at

01:40:42.075 --> 01:40:49.005
same time, you know, that's, I could
feel that it seems up to the, I mean,

01:40:49.005 --> 01:40:58.125
the shaman himself, ourself seems
whoever received a powerful spirit.

01:40:58.635 --> 01:40:58.845
Yeah.

01:40:58.845 --> 01:41:05.950
Or powerful the healing or powerful
training seems, it just maybe

01:41:06.190 --> 01:41:09.130
depends on him or on her that

01:41:09.820 --> 01:41:10.270
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.

01:41:11.950 --> 01:41:12.670
But would you, yeah.

01:41:12.670 --> 01:41:17.080
Would you, now, if a family were to
contact you again and say, I'm looking

01:41:17.080 --> 01:41:21.370
for this, would you, would you contact
these different healers in the different

01:41:21.370 --> 01:41:25.900
regions and see which one says,
yes, I think I can help this person?

01:41:25.900 --> 01:41:27.370
Or how would you organize it?

01:41:27.370 --> 01:41:31.060
Or would you always take them up to
the north, to the reindeer people now?

01:41:33.190 --> 01:41:34.120
Mm.

01:41:34.840 --> 01:41:38.590
Tulga Otgonbaatar: For my, for me
to bringing up, bringing the people

01:41:38.590 --> 01:41:44.330
over there I always choose, I always
choose the northern place because

01:41:44.840 --> 01:41:50.285
it's, I have so much, I mean, I used
to, and also I know the people a lot.

01:41:51.305 --> 01:41:55.885
And I do take care of them
and they like to care of me.

01:41:55.885 --> 01:41:57.835
So it's, there is a bond.

01:41:58.375 --> 01:42:05.155
And and also the same time, the people
themselves, they want to go to the

01:42:05.245 --> 01:42:08.905
north to see the reindeer place as well.

01:42:08.965 --> 01:42:10.405
Reindeer tribe as well.

01:42:10.825 --> 01:42:10.915
Mm-hmm.

01:42:10.915 --> 01:42:12.895
At the same time they want to benefit it.

01:42:12.895 --> 01:42:12.955
Yeah.

01:42:13.735 --> 01:42:14.155
Rupert Isaacson: So

01:42:14.155 --> 01:42:17.865
Tulga Otgonbaatar: just then I
couldn't help it to go to the North

01:42:18.345 --> 01:42:20.295
Northern Mongolia a lot and lot.

01:42:20.805 --> 01:42:21.105
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:42:21.195 --> 01:42:22.005
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Even nowadays.

01:42:23.235 --> 01:42:26.115
Rupert Isaacson: But if somebody said,
I want to go see a shaman in the Gobi,

01:42:26.115 --> 01:42:30.165
or I want to see a shaman among the
Kazakhs, would you know where to go?

01:42:30.645 --> 01:42:31.785
Would you know where to take them?

01:42:32.535 --> 01:42:33.555
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes, I would.

01:42:34.065 --> 01:42:38.125
The other thing is it seems
they don't know the shamans

01:42:38.285 --> 01:42:40.175
exist all over the Mongolia.

01:42:40.505 --> 01:42:40.955
Interesting.

01:42:40.955 --> 01:42:45.925
I think it'd be one of the one of the
things they don't, I mean, Mongolia

01:42:45.925 --> 01:42:52.645
is, we don't take the people to,
up to the west, south of Mongolia.

01:42:53.365 --> 01:42:57.940
The only thing, it's the the shamanism
is only in the Northern Mongolia.

01:42:58.485 --> 01:42:59.475
It's just because of you.

01:43:00.135 --> 01:43:00.465
Okay.

01:43:00.465 --> 01:43:01.380
It's just because of the book.

01:43:01.380 --> 01:43:01.820
Basically.

01:43:03.120 --> 01:43:06.015
The horse boy, the movie after that.

01:43:06.015 --> 01:43:10.005
So everyone thinks they
are strong shamans.

01:43:10.375 --> 01:43:14.155
The shamanism is the
Northern Mongolia only.

01:43:14.725 --> 01:43:18.325
Rupert Isaacson: It's so interesting
because I, I certainly never said that

01:43:18.325 --> 01:43:22.375
in the book, and I, I think, you know,
I was, I was also saying that the

01:43:22.375 --> 01:43:28.105
shamans that we saw, you know, on the
planes on the step were also very good.

01:43:28.345 --> 01:43:33.625
I mean, there is no question that,
that ghost was one of the most powerful

01:43:33.625 --> 01:43:38.665
healers I have ever encountered in
my life, and I've known quite a few.

01:43:39.755 --> 01:43:42.845
And obviously the reindeer
culture is a very, very special

01:43:42.845 --> 01:43:45.105
culture very beautiful culture.

01:43:45.465 --> 01:43:52.275
But yes, it's, it's clear that
the good healers exist everywhere.

01:43:53.025 --> 01:43:53.595
And true.

01:43:54.855 --> 01:43:55.245
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yeah.

01:43:55.635 --> 01:43:58.545
You never mentioned this,
only the Western, no.

01:43:58.575 --> 01:44:02.465
Northern Mongolia has Germans
and you want to go there, but we

01:44:02.465 --> 01:44:05.465
did ceremony in Lamber City Yes.

01:44:05.465 --> 01:44:11.815
Night s and we, we have seen, we met
different feelings on the way Yeah.

01:44:12.060 --> 01:44:14.815
Dely, I remember all, all that.

01:44:14.815 --> 01:44:18.865
But yes, I think the people got
the impression from Yeah, the

01:44:18.865 --> 01:44:21.865
boot and also the documentary.

01:44:22.235 --> 01:44:22.355
Yeah.

01:44:23.015 --> 01:44:25.750
Northern Mongolia has a shamans,

01:44:26.090 --> 01:44:26.310
Rupert Isaacson: yes.

01:44:26.310 --> 01:44:26.630
Mm-hmm.

01:44:27.140 --> 01:44:27.430
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Okay.

01:44:27.920 --> 01:44:28.630
Let's go there.

01:44:28.835 --> 01:44:34.265
So this is, this is, I think it's the,
I don't think we could change that.

01:44:35.240 --> 01:44:35.570
Rupert Isaacson: No.

01:44:35.750 --> 01:44:39.410
And, and to be fair that the
reindeer people do have an extremely,

01:44:39.440 --> 01:44:41.870
extremely effective system of healing.

01:44:42.350 --> 01:44:47.930
But yes, just for anyone who's watching
this or listening to this in Mongolia,

01:44:47.930 --> 01:44:51.800
if you're looking for healing,
you can find it in every region.

01:44:52.010 --> 01:44:52.400
Yeah.

01:44:52.550 --> 01:45:00.710
And it's more about looking for the
right healer for your question, for

01:45:00.710 --> 01:45:06.290
your dilemma, rather than saying, I must
do exactly what Rupert Isaacson did.

01:45:06.890 --> 01:45:07.605
Um mm-hmm.

01:45:08.825 --> 01:45:14.010
You know, where, 'cause I often,
for example, after we went to Sea

01:45:14.010 --> 01:45:17.220
Ghost and he said, Rupert, you
must do these three more journeys.

01:45:18.060 --> 01:45:21.390
Obviously when I went to Africa, to
the Bushman, I knew exactly where

01:45:21.390 --> 01:45:24.600
to go and who to go to because
I knew those people personally.

01:45:24.960 --> 01:45:29.520
But when I went to Australia and to
the Navajo Reservation, I had no idea.

01:45:29.790 --> 01:45:35.070
So I had to ask people, talk to people
exactly how I started with Mongolia.

01:45:35.520 --> 01:45:40.890
And little by little, a picture comes
together where a certain number of people

01:45:40.890 --> 01:45:44.640
say, go to this person, go to this place.

01:45:45.060 --> 01:45:50.040
And yeah, a aer Okay, now this is
the fifth person who's told me this.

01:45:50.520 --> 01:45:52.350
What am I feeling in my gut?

01:45:52.410 --> 01:45:56.370
Okay, I'm feeling that I
need to follow this path.

01:45:57.465 --> 01:46:01.365
So then I found my way to these
two very good healers, one in the

01:46:01.365 --> 01:46:05.775
rainforest area of Australia and
one in the Navajo reservation.

01:46:05.775 --> 01:46:09.105
And they were also incredibly
effective with Rowan.

01:46:10.695 --> 01:46:16.485
But I, I, I found out about them through
a series of researchers, just like,

01:46:16.545 --> 01:46:22.485
that's how I found Ghost was through a
series of researchers that equally they

01:46:22.485 --> 01:46:24.405
could have taken me in another direction.

01:46:24.805 --> 01:46:24.975
Yeah.

01:46:25.250 --> 01:46:25.640
Yeah.

01:46:25.880 --> 01:46:30.620
And I do think it's good for people
to, to know this, to, to not just say,

01:46:32.900 --> 01:46:32.990
mm-hmm.

01:46:33.290 --> 01:46:34.100
There's only one way.

01:46:34.190 --> 01:46:35.270
No, there isn't there.

01:46:35.660 --> 01:46:41.390
And the other thing too is that
when I came out to Mongolia, by the

01:46:41.390 --> 01:46:47.210
time I got there, although I was
really hopeful and obviously wanting

01:46:47.450 --> 01:46:52.640
Rowan to move past his suffering.

01:46:53.840 --> 01:46:53.990
Mm-hmm.

01:46:54.230 --> 01:46:56.750
I did not want his autism to go away.

01:46:57.590 --> 01:47:01.370
I was comfortable and
happy with his autism.

01:47:01.980 --> 01:47:10.135
And again, this, this difference between
healing and cure, it's, it's such a,

01:47:12.570 --> 01:47:13.920
an important thing.

01:47:14.580 --> 01:47:19.740
I was not expecting any
kind of immediate result.

01:47:20.385 --> 01:47:20.955
At all.

01:47:21.615 --> 01:47:26.985
And in fact, I was very
ready for nothing to happen.

01:47:28.335 --> 01:47:31.695
And I asked myself,
well, what am I gonna do?

01:47:31.695 --> 01:47:32.775
What am I gonna say?

01:47:33.195 --> 01:47:34.125
What am I gonna think?

01:47:34.125 --> 01:47:38.805
What am I gonna feel if I come back from
Mongolia and there's no change at all?

01:47:39.435 --> 01:47:41.955
And I thought, well, sure.

01:47:42.585 --> 01:47:49.725
But then at least I went and had, or we
as a family went and had this incredible

01:47:49.725 --> 01:47:53.895
adventure because of the autism.

01:47:54.675 --> 01:47:59.745
Instead of saying, well, we can't go to
somewhere like Mongolia because of the

01:47:59.745 --> 01:48:05.415
autism and say, no, it's the autism that's
making us go to this incredible place

01:48:05.415 --> 01:48:10.185
to meet these incredible people, to have
this incredible adventure that perhaps we

01:48:10.185 --> 01:48:13.245
would never have done except for autism.

01:48:13.245 --> 01:48:16.095
Therefore, autism is
giving us this great gift.

01:48:17.145 --> 01:48:23.505
Of course, what did happen was the
healings that are in the book, and yes,

01:48:23.505 --> 01:48:28.425
there was this immediate result with
Tommo in the first healing and then a

01:48:29.175 --> 01:48:32.505
pretty much immediate result after Ghost.

01:48:32.505 --> 01:48:37.515
And I, I worried about that
after I published the books.

01:48:37.515 --> 01:48:40.965
I thought, oh shit, people are
gonna, people are gonna want that.

01:48:41.205 --> 01:48:44.505
But at the same time, you
have to tell your experience.

01:48:44.715 --> 01:48:47.115
So it's very interesting to
hear you tell that story.

01:48:47.985 --> 01:48:50.115
About the lady from New York
saying It's not happening.

01:48:50.115 --> 01:48:50.805
It's not happening.

01:48:50.985 --> 01:48:52.095
And then of course it happened.

01:48:52.875 --> 01:48:57.315
But if there's one thing I think
which nature teaches one nature

01:48:57.315 --> 01:48:58.665
in the mind, it's patience.

01:48:59.205 --> 01:49:03.015
And you know where we started this
conversation when I asked you, well,

01:49:03.015 --> 01:49:04.935
why are the Mongolian people so kind?

01:49:04.935 --> 01:49:06.075
Why are they so patient?

01:49:06.315 --> 01:49:07.605
Where is this forgiveness?

01:49:07.965 --> 01:49:11.265
Okay, there's the Buddhist aspect,
but you also talked about nature.

01:49:11.265 --> 01:49:14.925
You said, we have these huge
extremes of temperature.

01:49:15.525 --> 01:49:19.155
You have to wait for
conditions to be right.

01:49:19.755 --> 01:49:21.015
There is no choice.

01:49:21.675 --> 01:49:22.695
It's bigger than you.

01:49:23.685 --> 01:49:27.765
And I do feel that probably
everybody that you've taken

01:49:29.775 --> 01:49:34.425
on these healing journeys has
probably come back with something

01:49:34.425 --> 01:49:36.915
of that quality in them.

01:49:36.915 --> 01:49:43.305
And I, I do feel that that's a gift that
Mongolia gives, is this gift of just

01:49:43.575 --> 01:49:45.435
learning how to cool out a little bit.

01:49:47.025 --> 01:49:52.305
And if you think about those long,
long, long hours and days and days

01:49:52.575 --> 01:49:58.635
that we spent together just traveling
through to get to these places,

01:50:01.215 --> 01:50:06.075
those each step across the step each.

01:50:07.140 --> 01:50:10.590
Turn of the wheel, each
placement of the horse's hooves

01:50:11.640 --> 01:50:13.350
was its own beautiful moment.

01:50:14.130 --> 01:50:21.270
I remember so many moments that were
just traveling with all of us together

01:50:21.540 --> 01:50:25.410
that were so beautiful that were never
talked about in the book, because you only

01:50:25.410 --> 01:50:30.360
have a certain amount of pages that you,
you know, one has to get to the action.

01:50:32.310 --> 01:50:35.880
Do, do you, I, I guess this is a
real gift that you can give people

01:50:36.090 --> 01:50:38.525
in, in the work that you do.

01:50:40.890 --> 01:50:45.220
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Just remembering, you
know, how it seems and remembering the

01:50:45.220 --> 01:50:50.890
whole trip, you know, the how we wear the
car, you, you described, you know, the

01:50:50.890 --> 01:50:58.210
leopard skin car and the pink curtain,
and there's a, I think people still talk

01:50:58.210 --> 01:51:03.790
about this, you know, now they, that
Russian minivan, a minivan is just a

01:51:04.240 --> 01:51:04.900
Rupert Isaacson: huge, the pimp mobile.

01:51:07.040 --> 01:51:11.810
Tulga Otgonbaatar: They want to ride
that car when they come to Mongolia.

01:51:11.810 --> 01:51:15.410
It is just in also some
people particularly choose

01:51:15.500 --> 01:51:18.350
that van to ride, to drive.

01:51:19.550 --> 01:51:21.710
It's so interesting, so interesting.

01:51:22.010 --> 01:51:24.940
It's always, you know, once when you.

01:51:25.975 --> 01:51:31.675
Bring up the Rowan and the, when you
talk about the Bo Rowan and Rowan and

01:51:31.675 --> 01:51:36.595
even in Mongolia, I mean, there's a
lots of people in Mongolia when they

01:51:36.595 --> 01:51:43.025
see me and they remembers this horse,
the horse boy movie and the story, and

01:51:43.025 --> 01:51:45.725
they always ask, they took how's row.

01:51:46.745 --> 01:51:50.855
So I wanted, I want to ask you as
you've mentioned it before, so I

01:51:50.855 --> 01:51:53.495
want to ask the, the stem question.

01:51:53.675 --> 01:51:54.905
How is Row doing?

01:51:54.965 --> 01:51:55.385
Rupert Isaacson: All right.

01:51:55.445 --> 01:52:00.555
Well, if, if we were doing this he's
actually with my parents right now in

01:52:00.555 --> 01:52:03.345
London, and I'm talking to you from Spain.

01:52:03.955 --> 01:52:08.235
And he will be joining me from
London in the day after tomorrow.

01:52:09.045 --> 01:52:11.645
And so what's Rowan's life now?

01:52:11.645 --> 01:52:15.575
Ronan is going to be 24
in a couple of weeks.

01:52:15.905 --> 01:52:18.965
He's huge, much bigger than me.

01:52:18.970 --> 01:52:19.200
Mm-hmm.

01:52:19.535 --> 01:52:20.965
He yes.

01:52:21.025 --> 01:52:22.165
Can he live independently?

01:52:22.165 --> 01:52:22.855
Yes, he does.

01:52:23.095 --> 01:52:29.045
He in fact, he even sold his house last
year to put the money into a trust.

01:52:29.685 --> 01:52:35.595
He has two jobs and perhaps
a third one starting.

01:52:36.385 --> 01:52:42.685
He works at a state park doing, helping
with conservation work in Texas.

01:52:42.955 --> 01:52:44.665
He also.

01:52:45.070 --> 01:52:51.980
Helps to make lunches for low
income children after school,

01:52:52.130 --> 01:52:53.750
sometimes at a food bank.

01:52:54.380 --> 01:52:59.510
And he helps me on trainings with Movement
Method and Horse Boy Method, where he

01:52:59.510 --> 01:53:05.210
explains what it is to be autistic to
parents who are going through this.

01:53:05.210 --> 01:53:09.830
And, and he advises them on approaches
to take with their children's

01:53:09.830 --> 01:53:12.470
education and upbringing and therapies.

01:53:12.830 --> 01:53:18.710
And I think he is shortly going to
be taking a volunteer job at the San

01:53:18.710 --> 01:53:24.140
Antonio Zoo, which is a place he's been
going to since he was a little boy.

01:53:24.140 --> 01:53:31.020
And he loves very much as a guide
for visitors explaining I think

01:53:31.020 --> 01:53:35.580
a little bit from a autistic
point of view the experience.

01:53:36.570 --> 01:53:42.540
And he divides his time between Texas,
where in Austin with his, his mom, but

01:53:42.540 --> 01:53:47.610
he lives actually most of the week by
himself and then also Europe with me.

01:53:48.270 --> 01:53:49.560
He goes back and forth.

01:53:50.100 --> 01:53:52.470
He travels independently.

01:53:52.940 --> 01:53:55.940
He take, he goes and stays in
the youth hostels with a backpack

01:53:55.940 --> 01:53:59.930
if he wants to go see something
or takes the train or whatever.

01:54:00.030 --> 01:54:01.860
He still rides when he's with me.

01:54:02.260 --> 01:54:07.540
I have a horse for him and he still
loves nature as deeply as he ever did,

01:54:07.870 --> 01:54:11.970
and he's highly articulate and people
can actually find interviews with him

01:54:11.970 --> 01:54:14.310
on YouTube if they go on our channel.

01:54:14.910 --> 01:54:20.990
And I think we get so often these
questions that when he's here, I have

01:54:20.990 --> 01:54:23.840
it sort of on the agenda when he's here.

01:54:24.000 --> 01:54:27.630
, We're going to do a bunch of filming
together where he's gonna talk to camera

01:54:27.630 --> 01:54:31.320
and tell people a little bit about
what his life is like now, because

01:54:31.380 --> 01:54:33.390
obviously so many people want to know.

01:54:33.840 --> 01:54:37.650
He always asks about you,
he always asks about to.

01:54:38.880 --> 01:54:41.590
And yeah, he's been very successful.

01:54:42.370 --> 01:54:45.130
And at the same time,
he is totally autistic.

01:54:45.130 --> 01:54:49.900
At the same time, he knows
that he is vulnerable.

01:54:49.900 --> 01:54:53.920
He knows that he needs
help navigating the world.

01:54:54.010 --> 01:55:00.700
He knows that he has to be careful
with what people tell him and what he

01:55:00.700 --> 01:55:02.470
can believe and what he can't believe.

01:55:02.920 --> 01:55:08.800
But because he knows this about
himself, he can also come to me or

01:55:08.800 --> 01:55:13.600
to his mother or to other people
who he trusts and say, okay, how

01:55:13.600 --> 01:55:15.460
should I interpret this situation?

01:55:16.180 --> 01:55:22.060
And, but you know, he road trips across
big chunks of America by himself and

01:55:22.420 --> 01:55:24.130
travels around Europe by himself.

01:55:24.160 --> 01:55:26.080
And it's, it's, it's
absolutely incredible.

01:55:26.310 --> 01:55:34.170
And he still has this absolute quality of
sweetness of innocence that he always had.

01:55:34.220 --> 01:55:34.760
He is,

01:55:36.830 --> 01:55:40.070
like many people who are
classically autistic, extremely

01:55:40.550 --> 01:55:43.460
kind, his ego is very quiet.

01:55:44.360 --> 01:55:48.320
And he's, he's, he's a
sweet and loving young man.

01:55:49.130 --> 01:55:52.490
But what I'm hoping, and this is,
we talked about this before we

01:55:52.490 --> 01:55:56.070
hit record in a year and a half.

01:55:56.070 --> 01:55:58.800
It's going to be the 20 year
anniversary of the horse.

01:55:58.800 --> 01:56:02.340
Boy, I think we have to try
to come back to Mongolia.

01:56:02.970 --> 01:56:07.140
I think you and I should talk about
this and we should figure out, we

01:56:07.140 --> 01:56:11.550
should go again as a fam, the two
families, two fathers, two sons.

01:56:12.010 --> 01:56:17.530
So maybe talk to Tomo about this and
see what Tomo thinks, because now,

01:56:18.040 --> 01:56:19.810
now our children are our bosses.

01:56:20.140 --> 01:56:24.770
So, I'm sure obviously Tomo
will have his own ideas and see,

01:56:24.775 --> 01:56:26.365
see what it is we should do.

01:56:26.365 --> 01:56:30.925
And if, if we contact ghost sister
and see, let's ask her and say,

01:56:31.315 --> 01:56:32.875
you know, what do you think?

01:56:32.925 --> 01:56:34.095
And then between us.

01:56:35.970 --> 01:56:40.800
You know, come up with what it is we
should do, where it is we should go.

01:56:41.070 --> 01:56:42.270
Is it the same place?

01:56:42.270 --> 01:56:43.740
Is it, does it look different?

01:56:44.280 --> 01:56:45.120
I'm open.

01:56:45.780 --> 01:56:51.720
I think, I think we should absolutely
consult with ghost's sister, see

01:56:51.720 --> 01:56:56.940
what shes, the spirit world is
saying and take it from there.

01:56:58.740 --> 01:56:59.520
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Wow.

01:57:00.390 --> 01:57:00.780
Wow.

01:57:00.780 --> 01:57:03.870
What a information.

01:57:03.870 --> 01:57:04.380
Yes.

01:57:05.475 --> 01:57:12.380
I, I really, I am really happy with making
it, you know, the 20th Ann anniversary.

01:57:12.950 --> 01:57:15.710
Soon it's coming, you
know, 20, 27, I think.

01:57:16.340 --> 01:57:23.130
So by the time the, the boys were
riding with the same saddles the,

01:57:23.880 --> 01:57:28.110
the Rowan was riding with you
and the Tom was riding with me.

01:57:28.350 --> 01:57:31.170
I don't think, think
we could do that again.

01:57:33.780 --> 01:57:33.960
No.

01:57:33.960 --> 01:57:34.710
That cannot fit.

01:57:34.905 --> 01:57:35.310
No, no.

01:57:35.460 --> 01:57:36.060
Maybe we take

01:57:36.060 --> 01:57:36.510
Rupert Isaacson: camels.

01:57:36.510 --> 01:57:37.860
Then we can each take one hump.

01:57:38.100 --> 01:57:38.220
Yeah.

01:57:38.225 --> 01:57:38.405
Oh,

01:57:40.170 --> 01:57:41.520
Tulga Otgonbaatar: that is an idea.

01:57:43.220 --> 01:57:43.760
Yes.

01:57:43.860 --> 01:57:45.660
I would be very open.

01:57:46.080 --> 01:57:48.450
We could, you know, plan it, organize it.

01:57:48.660 --> 01:57:48.810
Yeah.

01:57:48.810 --> 01:57:49.620
We should try.

01:57:49.620 --> 01:57:54.750
We have to try it to,
to make it to a reunion.

01:57:55.200 --> 01:57:55.590
Yeah.

01:57:55.590 --> 01:57:56.025
For the day.

01:57:56.710 --> 01:57:57.280
Anniversary.

01:57:57.280 --> 01:57:57.610
Yes.

01:57:57.610 --> 01:57:59.290
Yeah, they, I would be very happy.

01:57:59.680 --> 01:58:08.040
And you mentioned at the Rowan is so
sweet and his ego is, there's no ego

01:58:08.490 --> 01:58:14.610
and the kind so he's got, it's when
you, when we see the autism, things

01:58:14.610 --> 01:58:16.920
are, are work things work differently.

01:58:16.920 --> 01:58:17.010
Yes.

01:58:17.310 --> 01:58:20.490
And they're quite protective, isolated.

01:58:20.760 --> 01:58:24.910
Is it the Rowan is because
of his a bit of celebrity?

01:58:25.270 --> 01:58:27.130
Or why is that?

01:58:27.705 --> 01:58:28.555
It's interesting.

01:58:28.555 --> 01:58:29.050
It's such a good

01:58:29.050 --> 01:58:29.530
Rupert Isaacson: question.

01:58:29.530 --> 01:58:30.700
Why is it, you know,

01:58:32.890 --> 01:58:39.160
I guess there are many different
kinds of autism and so I'm talking

01:58:39.160 --> 01:58:43.750
about a very specific personality
type, which is Rowan, but it's a

01:58:43.750 --> 01:58:46.720
personality type that I encounter often.

01:58:47.290 --> 01:58:50.470
So there are, there are some
forms of autism where the ego is

01:58:50.470 --> 01:58:55.420
quite big, but with Rowan's type
of autism, no, it's very quiet.

01:58:55.810 --> 01:59:01.720
It's as if for me to have an ego
like Rowan's, a quiet ego like

01:59:01.720 --> 01:59:07.360
that, I would need 30, 40 years of
spiritual practice, you know, and

01:59:07.360 --> 01:59:09.430
even then it would be very difficult.

01:59:09.850 --> 01:59:17.650
He is born like this well, I dunno if
you remember, but in the documentary.

01:59:18.520 --> 01:59:22.750
One of the people we spoke to, there
was a man called Richard Grinker,

01:59:22.750 --> 01:59:29.890
who is an ethno anthropologist, and
he talks about shamanism healers in

01:59:29.890 --> 01:59:36.190
indigenous communities, often having
these neuropsychiatric conditions.

01:59:36.280 --> 01:59:40.450
Yeah, they could be epileptic, they
could be autistic, they could be have

01:59:40.450 --> 01:59:48.380
bipolar, they could be many things
and schizophrenic, but it gives them

01:59:48.380 --> 01:59:55.190
some sort of emotional sensitivity
that they are then able to heal.

01:59:55.640 --> 01:59:57.710
And I think Rowan is a
little bit like this.

01:59:57.710 --> 02:00:02.120
He, it, it, it's very
healing to be around him.

02:00:02.960 --> 02:00:09.020
He's one of these people who,
if he walks into the room, it

02:00:09.110 --> 02:00:12.020
makes people behave better.

02:00:12.830 --> 02:00:15.230
So, and he's not the only one.

02:00:15.230 --> 02:00:17.030
I I know many people like this.

02:00:17.130 --> 02:00:18.120
Is it genetic?

02:00:18.120 --> 02:00:19.110
Is it spiritual?

02:00:19.110 --> 02:00:21.750
Can you separate
spirituality from genetics?

02:00:21.750 --> 02:00:25.500
No, because spirituality and
humans humans are genetics.

02:00:25.500 --> 02:00:29.340
So these things are obviously related.

02:00:30.510 --> 02:00:31.920
My feeling is that.

02:00:32.355 --> 02:00:38.055
People like Rowan are there in
human society to help the rest

02:00:38.055 --> 02:00:41.145
of us, and they're born this way.

02:00:41.505 --> 02:00:43.395
Why are they born this way?

02:00:44.205 --> 02:00:44.625
I don't know.

02:00:44.655 --> 02:00:44.745
Mm-hmm.

02:00:45.495 --> 02:00:46.850
That is one of the great mysteries.

02:00:47.475 --> 02:00:57.315
But we are lucky that they are,
because as you said, you know, there

02:00:57.315 --> 02:01:03.135
are many people who want to be healers
or want to be shamans, but my feeling

02:01:03.135 --> 02:01:08.685
is nobody in their right mind would
really want to be a shaman or want to

02:01:08.685 --> 02:01:12.345
be a healer because it's hard work.

02:01:12.345 --> 02:01:16.365
I mean, you can't, you're not,
you know, it's, it's, it's, you're

02:01:16.365 --> 02:01:17.505
not gonna get rich doing that.

02:01:17.505 --> 02:01:20.955
And it's, it's exhausting work
and very hard work and so on.

02:01:20.955 --> 02:01:24.825
So it's something that
either you are or you aren't.

02:01:26.435 --> 02:01:29.795
But if you are, it's very, very clear.

02:01:30.365 --> 02:01:36.065
And there are some people now, if
you're born into a culture like the

02:01:36.065 --> 02:01:39.605
reindeer people, let's say Rowan
had been born into that culture,

02:01:40.295 --> 02:01:44.915
probably he would be a shaman,
probably he would be a working shaman.

02:01:44.915 --> 02:01:50.795
He would be, he would've been apprentice
to somebody like Ghost quite early, and we

02:01:50.795 --> 02:01:54.845
would be going to see him in our culture.

02:01:55.475 --> 02:02:00.785
He exists, I feel almost in the
same type of role that he is

02:02:02.045 --> 02:02:04.505
almost professionally himself.

02:02:07.085 --> 02:02:07.175
Mm-hmm.

02:02:07.415 --> 02:02:07.505
As a

02:02:07.505 --> 02:02:12.815
way of bringing healing to
other people and understanding,

02:02:14.375 --> 02:02:18.065
you talked about patience and
forgiveness, all of these things.

02:02:18.425 --> 02:02:24.035
So clearly in human culture, we
need this population of people to

02:02:24.245 --> 02:02:30.095
stop us from becoming genis, kahan
and turn us into ghost, hopefully.

02:02:30.185 --> 02:02:31.355
Or something in between.

02:02:31.355 --> 02:02:36.035
Something in between Genghis, Kahan
and ghosts enough to make sure the

02:02:36.035 --> 02:02:38.975
Russians and the Chinese don't take
all of your mineral resources and

02:02:40.955 --> 02:02:49.175
flatten the whole country and enough
ghosts to be patient and forgive.

02:02:49.175 --> 02:02:53.075
And, you know, we are always trying
to find that middle way, aren't we?

02:02:54.305 --> 02:02:54.485
Mm-hmm.

02:02:54.785 --> 02:02:55.265
Yes.

02:02:55.475 --> 02:02:55.925
Yeah.

02:02:59.105 --> 02:03:03.755
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Well, well,
I wanted to ask, I I, I always

02:03:03.755 --> 02:03:05.225
wanted to ask one thing.

02:03:05.705 --> 02:03:11.775
You remember when we were in the
GOs plays and, inside Tiping.

02:03:11.835 --> 02:03:12.375
Yes.

02:03:13.075 --> 02:03:19.330
You, you, we received the permission,
I mean, to, to do the filming

02:03:19.750 --> 02:03:20.170
Rupert Isaacson: in the

02:03:20.170 --> 02:03:23.860
Tulga Otgonbaatar: ceremony and
remember the the lights went off.

02:03:24.400 --> 02:03:24.820
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

02:03:26.170 --> 02:03:27.160
Tulga Otgonbaatar: What happens there?

02:03:27.160 --> 02:03:28.150
What happens there?

02:03:28.660 --> 02:03:30.520
Rupert Isaacson: Ah, why did the
lights go off in the filming?

02:03:30.880 --> 02:03:31.210
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Exactly.

02:03:31.900 --> 02:03:32.680
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

02:03:33.340 --> 02:03:37.530
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Is it because of
they, I mean they, I saw them charging.

02:03:37.800 --> 02:03:39.960
Is it They didn't charge in enough?

02:03:39.990 --> 02:03:40.260
Rupert Isaacson: No.

02:03:40.260 --> 02:03:46.680
They charged and if you remember the all
the electronic equipment, it failed during

02:03:46.680 --> 02:03:48.540
the ceremony and then it came on again.

02:03:48.630 --> 02:03:48.750
Yeah.

02:03:48.870 --> 02:03:49.260
Boom.

02:03:50.010 --> 02:03:50.160
Yeah.

02:03:50.160 --> 02:03:52.290
When the ceremony was over.

02:03:52.290 --> 02:03:52.740
Why?

02:03:53.040 --> 02:03:53.490
Okay.

02:03:53.820 --> 02:03:55.590
I've seen this happen many times.

02:03:56.340 --> 02:04:01.860
I've seen this happen in Africa and
the Kalahari filming or recording

02:04:01.890 --> 02:04:06.270
at healings and the healer that
will almost always say, yeah, sure,

02:04:06.270 --> 02:04:12.600
you can try to record it, but don't
be angry if your equipment fails.

02:04:12.630 --> 02:04:18.210
Because I guess there is such a
huge amount of spiritual activity

02:04:18.600 --> 02:04:23.760
and spiritual activity must to
some degree, have some electrical

02:04:24.270 --> 02:04:28.020
quality because life is electricity.

02:04:28.530 --> 02:04:30.810
You know, we all use
electricity every day.

02:04:30.810 --> 02:04:32.610
We are using it right now
to talk to each other.

02:04:32.610 --> 02:04:32.670
Yeah.

02:04:32.940 --> 02:04:34.440
But neither you nor I.

02:04:34.845 --> 02:04:39.345
Nor even a physicist can tell
us, mm-hmm what is electricity?

02:04:39.555 --> 02:04:42.435
We only know that it exists
and we know we can harness it,

02:04:42.645 --> 02:04:43.875
but we don't know what it is.

02:04:44.385 --> 02:04:49.545
But we know that the whole universe runs
on it more or less, and our bodies do,

02:04:49.545 --> 02:04:52.425
and our nervous system does and so on.

02:04:52.665 --> 02:04:58.305
So I guess when you are, and this is,
I'm just guessing, but it, I think

02:04:58.305 --> 02:05:05.745
it's an educated guess, is that when
a ceremony like this is happening, the

02:05:05.955 --> 02:05:13.695
level of electrical magnetic energy
is so strong that it can short circuit

02:05:13.815 --> 02:05:16.965
temporarily electronic equipment.

02:05:16.995 --> 02:05:22.725
And I also think there's a
mischievous, humorous aspect to it

02:05:22.725 --> 02:05:28.305
because, you know, the longer I'm
alive, the more I am convinced.

02:05:28.305 --> 02:05:32.475
I think that we live in a conscious
universe that consciousness is

02:05:32.475 --> 02:05:35.745
not a product of the human brain.

02:05:36.255 --> 02:05:39.945
That the human brain is a product
of consciousness, and that there

02:05:39.945 --> 02:05:42.465
is a wider field of consciousness.

02:05:43.035 --> 02:05:49.005
Some people could call it God, some people
could call it love, but we know that

02:05:51.585 --> 02:05:57.915
so much happens that is outside of
our ability to explain, including

02:05:57.915 --> 02:06:00.075
normal things like electricity.

02:06:01.245 --> 02:06:02.115
So.

02:06:02.820 --> 02:06:09.660
Why would there not sometimes also be a
slightly mischievous or humorous element

02:06:09.660 --> 02:06:18.540
to this, where the spiritual energy that
comes with healing also has a little

02:06:18.540 --> 02:06:25.860
bit of a sense of humor and, you know,
shuts your equipment down at that moment.

02:06:25.860 --> 02:06:28.410
Just, just for fun in a way.

02:06:28.410 --> 02:06:31.340
You know, I, I, that's what
I feel is sort of going on.

02:06:31.460 --> 02:06:31.820
Yeah.

02:06:33.080 --> 02:06:37.110
Tulga Otgonbaatar: This is one
of my behind the scene stories.

02:06:37.600 --> 02:06:42.520
I have told quite a few people
around me about it and I've

02:06:42.520 --> 02:06:45.540
never told you before, so, okay.

02:06:45.540 --> 02:06:53.340
I think when, that was a evening when
we first met him, and you told him some

02:06:53.340 --> 02:07:00.640
stories about the African shamans and
him the Rowan and then the GOs shout,

02:07:00.640 --> 02:07:04.440
he listened patiently and completely.

02:07:05.190 --> 02:07:09.810
Then we asked him permission
to do the ceremony for him.

02:07:09.870 --> 02:07:15.730
And after a little while, you know, he
was explaining to me, yes I felt something

02:07:15.730 --> 02:07:18.640
hard was coming to me and like that.

02:07:18.670 --> 02:07:22.960
And, then Michael, now he, who was that?

02:07:22.960 --> 02:07:27.940
And the stomach running and now it was
like quite of, you know, intense in

02:07:27.990 --> 02:07:33.720
he had to up and when, when we were
before riding, I mean, I remember this,

02:07:34.200 --> 02:07:38.460
Rupert Isaacson: when, when, when Michael
got that case of terrible stomach upset.

02:07:38.730 --> 02:07:39.210
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes, exactly.

02:07:39.210 --> 02:07:39.390
Before

02:07:39.390 --> 02:07:42.360
Rupert Isaacson: we rode up
the mountain to Sea Ghost.

02:07:42.360 --> 02:07:42.570
Yes.

02:07:42.750 --> 02:07:43.900
Tulga Otgonbaatar: What was his name?

02:07:44.200 --> 02:07:47.830
Sorry, but, but now it's just,
I've forgotten some names.

02:07:48.220 --> 02:07:50.680
And working with the sounds and Justin,

02:07:50.920 --> 02:07:52.525
Rupert Isaacson: Justin was the guy
working with the Oh yeah, Justin,

02:07:52.905 --> 02:07:56.045
Tulga Otgonbaatar: he saw a
white goat in the mountain.

02:07:56.065 --> 02:07:57.160
He saw the white IEX

02:07:57.160 --> 02:07:57.880
Rupert Isaacson: on the mountain.

02:07:57.880 --> 02:07:58.270
That's right.

02:07:58.275 --> 02:07:58.405
Yes,

02:07:58.600 --> 02:07:58.810
Tulga Otgonbaatar: yes.

02:07:58.900 --> 02:07:59.380
Iex.

02:07:59.380 --> 02:07:59.860
Exactly.

02:07:59.860 --> 02:08:05.945
So, and having said that I, I told
the August chairman about it, and

02:08:06.035 --> 02:08:08.765
he said nothing, and he smiled.

02:08:09.455 --> 02:08:15.875
And then I asked, you know, the,
we wanted to film this if we want

02:08:16.175 --> 02:08:17.345
if you, if you agree with that.

02:08:17.345 --> 02:08:18.640
And he said, yeah, yeah.

02:08:19.615 --> 02:08:25.695
I wasn't quite surprised because of
it's mainly first they would say no.

02:08:26.115 --> 02:08:27.915
There's so many reasons they could say no.

02:08:28.425 --> 02:08:35.015
And secondly, I was, maybe he would,
I was like waiting, expecting he

02:08:35.015 --> 02:08:37.085
would ask for more money or something.

02:08:37.145 --> 02:08:37.715
He, no.

02:08:38.690 --> 02:08:39.200
Yeah.

02:08:40.280 --> 02:08:44.920
And only one thing only one
thing he said afterwards.

02:08:45.340 --> 02:08:51.360
And then to me it was a gamble
to tell you or not to tell you.

02:08:52.410 --> 02:08:53.640
So he said, Hey, toga.

02:08:53.765 --> 02:08:57.305
During the ceremony there might
be the cameras, would, one of

02:08:57.305 --> 02:08:58.565
the cameras might be broken.

02:09:01.115 --> 02:09:01.385
What?

02:09:01.385 --> 02:09:01.955
Broken?

02:09:02.285 --> 02:09:03.035
Yeah, completely.

02:09:03.575 --> 02:09:05.135
I was like, what?

02:09:05.405 --> 02:09:12.105
Because it's, it's one of my, the first
few man ceremonies and I didn't know

02:09:12.105 --> 02:09:19.485
him so much, and whether he was, you
know, threatening me or not was kind

02:09:19.485 --> 02:09:26.905
of, you know, the feeling I had and I,
I kind of bathed to tell you or not, if,

02:09:26.995 --> 02:09:28.825
you know, the cameras would not break.

02:09:29.785 --> 02:09:32.515
So what would happen?

02:09:32.935 --> 02:09:38.185
So I, I, I, I, I had, you
know, that is thinking a lot.

02:09:38.270 --> 02:09:38.550
A lot.

02:09:38.905 --> 02:09:40.195
And decided not to tell you.

02:09:41.020 --> 02:09:43.180
Rupert Isaacson: Because you are
saying that he warned you before

02:09:43.180 --> 02:09:44.560
the ceremony that this might happen.

02:09:44.560 --> 02:09:45.070
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes, he,

02:09:45.705 --> 02:09:45.940
Rupert Isaacson: oh yeah.

02:09:45.940 --> 02:09:47.140
But I was ready for it.

02:09:47.230 --> 02:09:50.680
I, you know, I was so not
surprised because I had been

02:09:50.680 --> 02:09:52.030
in this situation before.

02:09:52.090 --> 02:09:52.330
Yeah,

02:09:52.330 --> 02:09:52.930
Tulga Otgonbaatar: exactly.

02:09:53.230 --> 02:09:53.410
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,

02:09:53.410 --> 02:09:53.980
Tulga Otgonbaatar: exactly.

02:09:53.980 --> 02:09:58.630
So, 'cause you know, you know, very
first few experiences and I never had,

02:09:58.870 --> 02:10:05.020
I never seen, you know, this kind of
failure or, you know, things would happen.

02:10:05.020 --> 02:10:06.280
So I didn't believe it.

02:10:07.060 --> 02:10:09.370
I mean, for myself I
didn't really believe it.

02:10:09.400 --> 02:10:15.200
So, I was really, you
know, not sure to tell you.

02:10:15.200 --> 02:10:18.935
So now, oh yeah, this is one
of my behind the scenes story.

02:10:18.935 --> 02:10:22.040
It's, it's, so then it happens,
then the light went off.

02:10:22.280 --> 02:10:26.600
So after the ceremony, he, he,
he came up to me and said, Hey,

02:10:26.600 --> 02:10:29.710
toga did not tell you face.

02:10:30.040 --> 02:10:32.020
So the cameras were expensive.

02:10:32.060 --> 02:10:34.460
I only played with the lights.

02:10:34.910 --> 02:10:35.210
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,

02:10:35.540 --> 02:10:37.460
Tulga Otgonbaatar: they
were, they were bothering me.

02:10:38.420 --> 02:10:38.480
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

02:10:40.970 --> 02:10:41.720
That's funny.

02:10:42.410 --> 02:10:42.860
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes.

02:10:42.860 --> 02:10:44.540
I think he was hilarious.

02:10:44.540 --> 02:10:47.080
And also he likes to joke.

02:10:47.500 --> 02:10:48.130
Absolute.

02:10:49.120 --> 02:10:50.320
So, yes.

02:10:50.320 --> 02:10:54.610
Then, you know, I, I didn't
tell you from the first place.

02:10:54.820 --> 02:11:00.220
So then I, after that, and if I tell
you this, you wouldn't believe it.

02:11:00.460 --> 02:11:03.850
So by the time I thought, this
is why my purchase, so then.

02:11:04.420 --> 02:11:09.580
Things went on and on and so
much of that, so I completely

02:11:09.580 --> 02:11:11.770
forgotten by the time when you left.

02:11:12.250 --> 02:11:19.135
I, I, I asked a few other shamans about
it and I told the story and then I

02:11:19.135 --> 02:11:22.135
realized, oh yes, this thing happened.

02:11:22.165 --> 02:11:22.915
This thing happened.

02:11:23.065 --> 02:11:23.365
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

02:11:24.085 --> 02:11:27.595
Tulga Otgonbaatar: And another story
maybe just a little bit funny or

02:11:27.655 --> 02:11:31.995
maybe it related with the the thing.

02:11:33.490 --> 02:11:36.595
So we do remember that we, oh yes.

02:11:36.715 --> 02:11:42.100
We bought a very good bottle
of vodka from only for him.

02:11:42.730 --> 02:11:47.450
And then because of you know, we were
riding horses and all of a sudden

02:11:47.540 --> 02:11:51.770
Michael's the not feeding ha healthy.

02:11:52.220 --> 02:11:52.460
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

02:11:52.460 --> 02:11:52.790
Then

02:11:52.790 --> 02:11:56.060
Tulga Otgonbaatar: that evening
we had a nice fire going, some

02:11:56.060 --> 02:11:58.250
fire going near the river.

02:11:58.250 --> 02:11:59.120
It was beautiful.

02:11:59.510 --> 02:11:59.630
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

02:11:59.660 --> 02:12:01.400
Tulga Otgonbaatar: So we start drinking.

02:12:01.880 --> 02:12:04.010
Then all of a sudden we finished that one.

02:12:04.670 --> 02:12:05.120
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

02:12:06.440 --> 02:12:09.920
Tulga Otgonbaatar: And then I had
to send one of our horse guides

02:12:10.220 --> 02:12:13.850
to get another one, but he came
back with very cheap local one

02:12:14.065 --> 02:12:14.415
Rupert Isaacson: Uhhuh,

02:12:14.990 --> 02:12:18.530
Tulga Otgonbaatar: and I thought,
oh, it's just better than nothing.

02:12:19.400 --> 02:12:22.130
And I came up and.

02:12:23.820 --> 02:12:24.570
Since you left.

02:12:25.110 --> 02:12:26.910
And I, I gave it to him

02:12:29.010 --> 02:12:36.450
and he looked at me and 'cause his eyes
were, I mean, not, and not big eyes.

02:12:36.660 --> 02:12:39.910
And but he could tell,
he could see me so deep.

02:12:40.690 --> 02:12:43.550
And then he received it.

02:12:43.790 --> 02:12:49.820
He opened it and he pulled it to
the glass about the size and 'cause

02:12:49.820 --> 02:12:51.290
it just, half of them is gone.

02:12:51.830 --> 02:12:59.010
No, before that he he showed me, he turned
around in the, he was digging and digging

02:12:59.280 --> 02:13:02.760
and he, he brought up a great goose.

02:13:03.660 --> 02:13:05.100
A friend of mine gave it to me.

02:13:05.880 --> 02:13:11.630
Then he, one of the expensive cognac
and whiskeys one after another,

02:13:11.630 --> 02:13:14.120
a few, like five, six in a row.

02:13:14.450 --> 02:13:18.770
So my little vodka was
sitting quite about right.

02:13:18.770 --> 02:13:19.370
The, ah,

02:13:22.250 --> 02:13:27.025
but if he put them back and,
and he pulled the vodka and he

02:13:27.025 --> 02:13:29.390
gave it to me and I drank it.

02:13:29.720 --> 02:13:32.600
And now I thought I, I
was going go to drink it.

02:13:32.810 --> 02:13:36.530
He said, you go out and
toss it to the northwest.

02:13:37.970 --> 02:13:40.610
And I, I went out and toss it.

02:13:40.610 --> 02:13:45.220
And then the, in, in that, like,
they were like seven or eight.

02:13:45.730 --> 02:13:51.990
Man was sitting, having a conversation
going in a very, you know, quietly,

02:13:52.590 --> 02:13:56.000
but then I could hear that the
fire crackling in the stove.

02:13:56.450 --> 02:14:00.560
So he then I went, went
in and gave it to him.

02:14:01.130 --> 02:14:02.000
Get the bottle?

02:14:02.090 --> 02:14:04.760
No, the bloodstream in the airport.

02:14:04.760 --> 02:14:05.420
It looks small.

02:14:05.420 --> 02:14:10.590
And we went 'cause it's Mongolian
thing and it has to go around and

02:14:10.590 --> 02:14:15.210
everyone has to drink some and
'cause seven hour eight people.

02:14:15.540 --> 02:14:21.840
I thought only few, the small bits
would come to me and I, yes it did.

02:14:21.900 --> 02:14:27.870
And I drug it and he carried on and it
came to me like second time, third time.

02:14:28.350 --> 02:14:29.340
I was like, what?

02:14:29.910 --> 02:14:32.340
Because it's just a
small, tiny little bit.

02:14:32.740 --> 02:14:38.140
I mean, half, less than a half is in
the bottle and this very small amounts

02:14:38.440 --> 02:14:42.920
should be, 'cause it's eight people
should have been gone, like, before me.

02:14:43.460 --> 02:14:49.910
So then, no, it just went three
times around then I was quite drunk.

02:14:50.030 --> 02:14:53.070
I was really, we didn't drink after that.

02:14:53.280 --> 02:14:54.840
So I was quite drunk.

02:14:54.840 --> 02:14:59.910
I was like, couldn't,
you know, go straight.

02:15:00.450 --> 02:15:02.660
And there was, you know, some streams.

02:15:02.940 --> 02:15:07.750
I, I dipped myself, my feet
in, in there a few times.

02:15:08.500 --> 02:15:15.920
And the next day he came next
morning, he, he visited us with

02:15:16.020 --> 02:15:19.540
hunger, their sister and her son.

02:15:20.050 --> 02:15:23.660
And how you, how, how are
you feeling this morning?

02:15:23.690 --> 02:15:32.310
He smiled and I, I never paid at attention
after I told one of the shas so many years

02:15:32.310 --> 02:15:38.790
after, like 10, 15 years later, I told
this story to one of my German friends.

02:15:39.360 --> 02:15:43.920
And he said, Hmm, so he tasted you what?

02:15:44.640 --> 02:15:47.040
So did I pass?

02:15:47.070 --> 02:15:49.050
Have I, have I passed or not?

02:15:49.680 --> 02:15:54.240
So then he said he answered,
so what happens afterwards?

02:15:54.270 --> 02:15:55.500
So we did our ceremony.

02:15:55.500 --> 02:15:57.240
So there you go.

02:15:57.990 --> 02:16:07.320
So this was, he tested me before you that
I never, I never had this, I never had

02:16:07.320 --> 02:16:10.560
a clue even so that was so interesting.

02:16:10.560 --> 02:16:10.770
That

02:16:10.770 --> 02:16:12.330
Rupert Isaacson: was the night
before we did the ceremonies.

02:16:13.080 --> 02:16:13.590
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Exactly.

02:16:13.590 --> 02:16:14.130
Night before.

02:16:14.130 --> 02:16:14.220
Yes.

02:16:14.250 --> 02:16:14.460
Yeah,

02:16:14.460 --> 02:16:14.950
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, yeah.

02:16:15.570 --> 02:16:19.170
Just go back to when the, the,
the, the, the, the white IEX on

02:16:19.170 --> 02:16:20.220
the mountain when you asked him.

02:16:20.225 --> 02:16:20.295
Okay.

02:16:21.360 --> 02:16:21.840
Yes.

02:16:21.900 --> 02:16:24.090
Did he, did he, what
did he say to you again?

02:16:24.090 --> 02:16:25.290
'cause I slightly missed that.

02:16:25.355 --> 02:16:26.790
You, you asked him, was that you?

02:16:28.140 --> 02:16:28.680
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes.

02:16:29.340 --> 02:16:30.300
'cause I was marching.

02:16:30.300 --> 02:16:31.740
It was him then.

02:16:31.740 --> 02:16:33.090
He he said nothing.

02:16:33.390 --> 02:16:39.405
Yeah, he smiled and he said, oh yes,
the heart was coming and I felt it.

02:16:40.155 --> 02:16:41.325
So that was it.

02:16:41.325 --> 02:16:43.555
So I said you have this
happened and that happens.

02:16:43.855 --> 02:16:49.045
The white, white goat, the
iex, eh, and he smiled.

02:16:49.045 --> 02:16:49.405
That's it.

02:16:49.675 --> 02:16:50.005
Yes.

02:16:50.005 --> 02:16:51.050
He never mentioned anything else.

02:16:51.250 --> 02:16:51.370
I,

02:16:51.835 --> 02:16:53.965
Rupert Isaacson: I remember what
he said to me when I asked him.

02:16:53.965 --> 02:16:54.865
'cause I had to ask him.

02:16:54.865 --> 02:16:58.465
He said, he looked at me and he just said,
anything can happen on that mountain,

02:17:02.725 --> 02:17:02.935
you know?

02:17:02.935 --> 02:17:05.935
And thi this quality of mischief.

02:17:07.105 --> 02:17:07.255
Yes.

02:17:07.255 --> 02:17:12.295
Every really good healer I've
ever known has done exactly this.

02:17:12.345 --> 02:17:13.665
They always test you.

02:17:13.665 --> 02:17:16.395
They, but the testing is done kindly.

02:17:16.485 --> 02:17:21.225
It's not done meanly or
maliciously like I said, you know?

02:17:21.225 --> 02:17:27.015
Yeah, well, like you just said, you
know, testing you with that vodka

02:17:27.315 --> 02:17:31.095
that magically the vodka just doesn't
go down and doesn't go down, and

02:17:31.335 --> 02:17:32.805
then suddenly there you are drunk.

02:17:33.345 --> 02:17:37.965
It's still a kind way of testing.

02:17:37.965 --> 02:17:38.055
Mm-hmm.

02:17:38.415 --> 02:17:39.435
It's not.

02:17:40.545 --> 02:17:43.095
Mean, it's not malicious,
you're not being heard.

02:17:43.095 --> 02:17:43.155
No.

02:17:43.155 --> 02:17:43.845
You're just being

02:17:46.665 --> 02:17:47.115
Yeah.

02:17:47.775 --> 02:17:53.205
Investigated to see how serious
are you about your desire for this

02:17:53.205 --> 02:17:55.275
healing, and are you willing to

02:17:57.465 --> 02:17:57.585
mm-hmm.

02:17:57.675 --> 02:17:58.695
Put your energy on

02:17:58.695 --> 02:18:00.045
the line as well?

02:18:00.045 --> 02:18:00.105
Yeah.

02:18:00.135 --> 02:18:04.065
Or are you just coming in to say,
I want to get something from you?

02:18:04.545 --> 02:18:06.645
It, that it has to be a two-way street.

02:18:06.645 --> 02:18:11.205
I, when I was in Africa, this was
long before coming to Mongolia

02:18:12.555 --> 02:18:17.805
and we were doing ceremonies for
the return of the land, for the

02:18:17.805 --> 02:18:20.085
Bushman, and they were successful.

02:18:20.085 --> 02:18:22.185
The, they got the land back.

02:18:22.935 --> 02:18:26.835
They said it'll be a year to
the day after this ceremony.

02:18:27.555 --> 02:18:28.485
They were wrong.

02:18:28.485 --> 02:18:33.285
By one day, it was one year, and
one day afterwards, they signed

02:18:33.285 --> 02:18:38.925
the largest land claim in African
history, so it appeared to work.

02:18:39.165 --> 02:18:45.555
However, the ceremony itself, I, I knew
this healer very well, Besa, he got

02:18:45.555 --> 02:18:55.485
drunk and instead of it being like a
prop, you know, a really serious healing

02:18:55.485 --> 02:19:03.555
that could last all night, you know,
that dancing and praying, it lasted like

02:19:06.495 --> 02:19:07.605
20 minutes.

02:19:08.475 --> 02:19:09.075
And that was it.

02:19:09.075 --> 02:19:13.395
And we had traveled a crazy
distance and I'd brought this

02:19:13.395 --> 02:19:15.305
other Bushman Heer to come.

02:19:15.315 --> 02:19:20.865
And afterwards I asked the leader
of the South African Bushman, who

02:19:20.865 --> 02:19:24.615
had been the one who had asked
me to put this healing together.

02:19:26.775 --> 02:19:28.305
This was really surprising.

02:19:28.335 --> 02:19:33.195
I wasn't expecting him to just get drunk
and treat it so casually like this.

02:19:33.405 --> 02:19:34.365
Do you think it worked?

02:19:34.365 --> 02:19:40.695
And Rupert said, oh yeah, David, the, the
leader of the South African bush was said,

02:19:40.725 --> 02:19:43.035
oh yeah, Rupert, you need to understand.

02:19:43.605 --> 02:19:45.495
He was showing me myself.

02:19:45.855 --> 02:19:46.965
And I said, what do you mean?

02:19:46.965 --> 02:19:49.845
He said, well, he was showing me the
weaknesses that I have to get through.

02:19:49.845 --> 02:19:50.595
I said, what do you mean?

02:19:50.595 --> 02:19:52.425
He said, Rupert, I'm an alcoholic.

02:19:52.935 --> 02:19:54.405
This is what Dava, the Bushman said.

02:19:54.405 --> 02:19:57.045
He said, what the, what
Besa was showing me.

02:19:57.045 --> 02:20:02.805
He gave me a mirror and said, if you
continue like this, you will not make,

02:20:03.225 --> 02:20:04.905
no, you will not get the land clear.

02:20:05.115 --> 02:20:11.265
You're gonna have to get over
this at least for the next year

02:20:12.105 --> 02:20:13.785
to see this process through.

02:20:14.625 --> 02:20:17.595
And that's what this healing
was all about, Rupert.

02:20:18.705 --> 02:20:22.305
And I said, oh, okay.

02:20:22.845 --> 02:20:24.615
And he said, yeah, no,
this is very powerful.

02:20:24.615 --> 02:20:25.035
And he said that.

02:20:25.035 --> 02:20:29.295
And then he said, yes, a a year from today
I'm going to sit down with the president

02:20:29.295 --> 02:20:36.435
of South Africa and sign the land claim,
which was by no means a certainty.

02:20:37.515 --> 02:20:37.735
Hmm.

02:20:37.740 --> 02:20:39.660
Well, like I said, he was off by one day.

02:20:40.350 --> 02:20:48.570
So this, this process of testing and
mischief and humor, it so much seems to be

02:20:48.570 --> 02:20:53.190
a part of how the natural world operates.

02:20:53.190 --> 02:20:58.620
And you know, what is shamanism,
but the natural world, you know?

02:20:58.680 --> 02:20:58.890
Yeah.

02:20:58.890 --> 02:21:00.690
People talk, say it's supernatural.

02:21:01.680 --> 02:21:03.930
Well, it might be, but it's still natural.

02:21:04.560 --> 02:21:07.350
If it's supernatural, it's still natural.

02:21:07.350 --> 02:21:11.790
It's just a bigger version, a
version that we don't understand.

02:21:11.790 --> 02:21:18.050
But it's the same, it's the same
forces, it's the same processes at work.

02:21:18.650 --> 02:21:21.050
And I think, you know, people
like you and I were so lucky

02:21:21.050 --> 02:21:22.760
to have had these experiences.

02:21:23.930 --> 02:21:25.580
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Very, very, yes.

02:21:25.700 --> 02:21:26.570
Rupert Isaacson: Two city boys.

02:21:26.570 --> 02:21:27.980
You know, I was born in London.

02:21:28.640 --> 02:21:33.320
You are, you're born in the city in
ub, you know, and yet there we are

02:21:33.320 --> 02:21:35.870
out on these mountains experience.

02:21:35.870 --> 02:21:36.260
Exactly.

02:21:36.410 --> 02:21:37.460
Incredible stuff.

02:21:39.020 --> 02:21:40.250
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Well, yes.

02:21:40.300 --> 02:21:46.530
Since you, you and your family came to
Mongolia and quite a few families really

02:21:46.530 --> 02:21:49.550
wanted to do that very same journey.

02:21:49.550 --> 02:21:57.100
Very same people, very same Germans
and some, some, I mean, two, three

02:21:57.160 --> 02:22:02.240
families never contact me back, but,
most of them, we were in contact

02:22:02.240 --> 02:22:03.890
and some of them still in contact.

02:22:04.490 --> 02:22:09.080
And when we are sharing what
we are doing, how is it doing?

02:22:09.620 --> 02:22:09.680
Yeah.

02:22:09.680 --> 02:22:14.050
And that, and one of the families
from Chicago and there was a

02:22:14.050 --> 02:22:19.700
16-year-old boy and he was growing
much taller 'cause of his father was

02:22:19.700 --> 02:22:22.220
really tall and sisters were taller.

02:22:22.610 --> 02:22:25.460
And he was, he was growing much tall.

02:22:25.490 --> 02:22:30.190
And also because of like his
fitness, he was growing up as

02:22:30.190 --> 02:22:32.020
well, his growing bigger as well.

02:22:32.500 --> 02:22:38.800
And there was a big worry about one,
when, when he's in it looked quite violent

02:22:38.800 --> 02:22:43.590
and yes, it seems they were, you know,
trying to do anything to stop his growth.

02:22:44.010 --> 02:22:44.670
Seems like that.

02:22:44.845 --> 02:22:45.255
Like that.

02:22:45.260 --> 02:22:45.660
Okay.

02:22:45.660 --> 02:22:50.540
And after Mongolia, well, we did, you
know, quite a few, quite a lot of, you

02:22:50.540 --> 02:22:57.830
know, days of horse riding and walking
in the big step in the nature seems,

02:22:58.430 --> 02:23:01.380
you know, things were okay with him.

02:23:01.620 --> 02:23:03.770
And this is 16-year-old.

02:23:04.310 --> 02:23:05.150
He's quite, you know,

02:23:05.990 --> 02:23:06.410
Rupert Isaacson: in

02:23:06.650 --> 02:23:12.150
Tulga Otgonbaatar: mature himself, but at
the same time he's still very dependent

02:23:12.960 --> 02:23:16.740
on the family, sisters, mother and father.

02:23:16.740 --> 02:23:17.670
And they want it.

02:23:18.365 --> 02:23:26.645
You know, they want him very independent,
but you know, even with walking, he wants

02:23:26.645 --> 02:23:28.985
to touch somebody or hold somebody Yeah.

02:23:29.435 --> 02:23:30.660
To, to walk.

02:23:31.110 --> 02:23:33.450
This is quite normal for autism.

02:23:33.450 --> 02:23:39.690
So, but, you know, they want him, they
wanted to him very independent by himself.

02:23:40.140 --> 02:23:46.270
But, you know, after Mongolia, he joined
his college basketball team, and they

02:23:46.270 --> 02:23:52.720
traveled, I think I, I, I don't know
whether he played in the, in the team,

02:23:52.720 --> 02:23:59.930
but they won one of the tournaments
and he, he was one of the team members.

02:24:00.470 --> 02:24:10.160
And after the school he went to one of the
farms nearby and he lived their, his own.

02:24:10.790 --> 02:24:13.040
And he was taking care of animals.

02:24:13.490 --> 02:24:18.480
And and they were talking about,
you know, reunion in some,

02:24:18.720 --> 02:24:21.750
somewhere, somewhere in, somewhere
in the city, in the United States.

02:24:22.440 --> 02:24:27.900
Maybe, maybe after, after, you
know, our reunion, they might

02:24:27.930 --> 02:24:29.430
come back to Mongo as well.

02:24:29.430 --> 02:24:30.900
I, who knows, maybe.

02:24:30.990 --> 02:24:36.200
And it's like that, you know, it's
inspire and inspired so many families

02:24:36.200 --> 02:24:38.950
and still many parents I would say and

02:24:40.990 --> 02:24:42.510
give them hope and, it worked.

02:24:42.750 --> 02:24:46.140
Some of them, it worked
for this for some of them.

02:24:46.620 --> 02:24:50.800
And I really enjoy to see
that and some changes.

02:24:51.340 --> 02:24:55.135
And it seems, you know, as you
know, life changing, isn't it?

02:24:55.600 --> 02:24:56.710
Rupert Isaacson: It is life changing.

02:24:58.210 --> 02:25:02.020
Tulga Otgonbaatar: I really love, you
know, that's things know, especially

02:25:02.350 --> 02:25:05.050
after, you know, Mongolia, how we going?

02:25:05.380 --> 02:25:08.170
And now I'm always curious about it.

02:25:08.230 --> 02:25:10.330
I'm always curious about that.

02:25:11.830 --> 02:25:18.250
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I guess we have
to do the second, the second journey.

02:25:18.250 --> 02:25:18.310
Yeah.

02:25:18.850 --> 02:25:19.300
All right.

02:25:19.300 --> 02:25:19.870
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Exactly.

02:25:20.320 --> 02:25:20.950
Exactly.

02:25:20.950 --> 02:25:22.450
I would be very happy to see it.

02:25:22.630 --> 02:25:23.080
Rupert Isaacson: All right.

02:25:23.080 --> 02:25:23.710
Well, let's,

02:25:24.190 --> 02:25:24.490
Tulga Otgonbaatar: yeah,

02:25:24.820 --> 02:25:26.260
Rupert Isaacson: let's talk about that.

02:25:26.360 --> 02:25:36.260
I think, I think the obvious thing is that
if you talk to ghost's sister and Yeah.

02:25:37.340 --> 02:25:38.540
Ask her advice

02:25:40.550 --> 02:25:40.640
mm-hmm.

02:25:40.880 --> 02:25:40.970
From

02:25:40.970 --> 02:25:41.180
you.

02:25:41.180 --> 02:25:41.870
From me.

02:25:42.920 --> 02:25:43.280
Yeah.

02:25:43.490 --> 02:25:45.620
What does she think we should do here?

02:25:45.620 --> 02:25:45.770
Yeah.

02:25:46.310 --> 02:25:52.130
And she will probably go and
ask the spirits what they think.

02:25:52.310 --> 02:25:52.460
Yeah.

02:25:53.430 --> 02:25:53.670
And then.

02:25:54.655 --> 02:25:58.255
I guess she'll come back with an answer
and that's probably what we'll do.

02:25:59.515 --> 02:26:00.505
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes, exactly.

02:26:01.075 --> 02:26:05.655
I'll, yes, I'll talk to her and
I'll send you a gratitude and

02:26:05.710 --> 02:26:06.000
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

02:26:06.210 --> 02:26:08.935
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Hello
to her and we'll see.

02:26:08.935 --> 02:26:10.270
Maybe who knows things

02:26:11.125 --> 02:26:11.605
Rupert Isaacson: okay.

02:26:12.055 --> 02:26:12.715
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Things work.

02:26:13.075 --> 02:26:13.885
Things might work.

02:26:14.035 --> 02:26:14.425
Who knows?

02:26:14.425 --> 02:26:14.755
Yeah.

02:26:15.235 --> 02:26:15.925
All right.

02:26:15.925 --> 02:26:17.365
I'll be happy with that.

02:26:18.625 --> 02:26:21.415
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so listeners,
viewers I guess stay tuned.

02:26:21.535 --> 02:26:21.625
Mm-hmm.

02:26:21.865 --> 02:26:23.215
And we'll tell you Yeah.

02:26:23.845 --> 02:26:27.595
Maybe the next time you see Tulga
Otgonbaatar and I together will be

02:26:27.685 --> 02:26:29.665
traveling once again with our sons.

02:26:29.755 --> 02:26:30.295
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Once again.

02:26:32.845 --> 02:26:34.210
This is, this is so cool.

02:26:34.240 --> 02:26:34.530
Yeah.

02:26:34.530 --> 02:26:37.015
This is so very nice.

02:26:37.015 --> 02:26:37.405
Yeah.

02:26:38.335 --> 02:26:41.395
Rupert Isaacson: Well, thank you so much
Tulga Otgonbaatar, for taking the time.

02:26:42.205 --> 02:26:47.905
I guess we should leave it here
then and say watch this space.

02:26:50.665 --> 02:26:51.055
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yeah.

02:26:51.745 --> 02:26:52.315
Rupert Isaacson: Alright.

02:26:52.975 --> 02:26:54.595
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Definitely, definitely.

02:26:54.865 --> 02:27:01.215
It's so nice and pleasure to
see you again in talking talking

02:27:01.215 --> 02:27:04.155
about this incredible journey.

02:27:05.155 --> 02:27:09.535
So excited, you know,
wait to see you again.

02:27:09.535 --> 02:27:11.125
And you and Robin again.

02:27:12.110 --> 02:27:15.470
Earlier to Tomo to was
here and now he left.

02:27:16.040 --> 02:27:19.430
And he has a son, three old, oh.

02:27:19.430 --> 02:27:19.880
Crazy.

02:27:19.880 --> 02:27:22.970
He so taller than me.

02:27:22.970 --> 02:27:25.460
He is, yes, he is 25.

02:27:25.550 --> 02:27:26.180
And yes.

02:27:27.560 --> 02:27:28.010
Rupert Isaacson: Well, maybe

02:27:28.010 --> 02:27:28.280
Tulga Otgonbaatar: to, could be

02:27:28.610 --> 02:27:29.210
Rupert Isaacson: his son.

02:27:30.530 --> 02:27:31.130
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Could do.

02:27:31.130 --> 02:27:31.370
Yes.

02:27:31.880 --> 02:27:32.720
Rupert Isaacson: That
would be interesting.

02:27:32.720 --> 02:27:32.760
That would be interesting.

02:27:32.760 --> 02:27:32.770
Yeah.

02:27:32.770 --> 02:27:32.870
That

02:27:32.870 --> 02:27:36.410
Tulga Otgonbaatar: could be because
he would be like five ish years.

02:27:36.470 --> 02:27:36.800
Yeah.

02:27:36.800 --> 02:27:36.810
Yeah.

02:27:37.130 --> 02:27:38.330
It would be so interesting.

02:27:38.330 --> 02:27:39.380
So interesting.

02:27:39.860 --> 02:27:40.520
And yes.

02:27:40.600 --> 02:27:47.355
It again, once again, this the, the
horse Boy story has inspired so many

02:27:47.355 --> 02:27:53.625
families, not even, you know, outside
of Mongolia, inside of Mongolia too.

02:27:53.810 --> 02:27:59.370
So much of, you know, change so much
of knowledge in know in Mongolia.

02:27:59.370 --> 02:27:59.850
Mm-hmm.

02:28:00.120 --> 02:28:03.270
The people were in spite
of lots, a lot and lots.

02:28:03.870 --> 02:28:05.490
So, wow.

02:28:05.730 --> 02:28:12.860
I'm so proud and glad being a part
of this story and so humble too.

02:28:14.360 --> 02:28:15.500
Well again, thank you.

02:28:15.590 --> 02:28:16.400
Rupert Isaacson: All right, my friend.

02:28:16.400 --> 02:28:17.300
Well, thank you.

02:28:17.810 --> 02:28:18.680
From the heart.

02:28:19.610 --> 02:28:19.820
Yeah.

02:28:19.920 --> 02:28:22.770
I will be in touch.

02:28:22.770 --> 02:28:24.540
We will make it happen.

02:28:26.490 --> 02:28:26.790
Yeah.

02:28:27.375 --> 02:28:27.885
Alright.

02:28:28.340 --> 02:28:28.580
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Alright.

02:28:28.995 --> 02:28:29.445
Yes.

02:28:29.445 --> 02:28:31.635
It's been so, wow.

02:28:31.785 --> 02:28:35.535
We started only five
east and now it's, wow.

02:28:35.535 --> 02:28:37.125
Three hours already.

02:28:37.250 --> 02:28:38.310
So yeah,

02:28:41.170 --> 02:28:43.395
so, so, so many stories can share.

02:28:44.145 --> 02:28:48.455
I mean, there are a lot of stories still
have it, you know, behind the scenes.

02:28:48.845 --> 02:28:50.345
Behind the scenes stories.

02:28:51.155 --> 02:28:51.575
Well, maybe

02:28:51.575 --> 02:28:53.795
Rupert Isaacson: we do another,
maybe we do another podcast with

02:28:53.795 --> 02:28:55.355
just behind the scenes stories.

02:28:55.355 --> 02:28:56.165
Yeah, let's do it.

02:28:57.035 --> 02:28:57.395
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Cool.

02:28:57.395 --> 02:28:57.725
Yes.

02:28:57.725 --> 02:28:59.235
That would be amazing.

02:28:59.235 --> 02:28:59.430
That would be amazing.

02:28:59.685 --> 02:29:05.950
Rupert Isaacson: I, I should probably give
you on another call a sort of an update

02:29:05.950 --> 02:29:09.820
of exactly how this work has developed.

02:29:10.990 --> 02:29:13.130
But yeah, it's alright.

02:29:15.080 --> 02:29:15.830
Yeah, yeah.

02:29:16.250 --> 02:29:23.890
I, I it from that, from that mountain
or that first day outside Lumata.

02:29:23.890 --> 02:29:31.060
Now I think we, it's in the hundreds
of thousands of, of families that have.

02:29:33.145 --> 02:29:37.795
Being helped one way or another, but
I don't take personal credit for that.

02:29:37.795 --> 02:29:43.495
I honestly do think that the credit
lies with Ghoster and the other shamans.

02:29:43.555 --> 02:29:46.075
So they were the ones who kicked this off.

02:29:47.005 --> 02:29:50.095
So please do tell his
sister how grateful I am.

02:29:51.895 --> 02:29:52.735
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes, I will.

02:29:53.455 --> 02:29:54.025
I will

02:29:54.865 --> 02:29:56.065
Rupert Isaacson: friends be
in touch and keep talking.

02:29:56.785 --> 02:29:57.805
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes, keep talking.

02:29:57.805 --> 02:29:58.315
All right.

02:29:58.525 --> 02:29:59.035
Alright, Michael.

02:29:59.035 --> 02:29:59.335
Nice.

02:29:59.815 --> 02:30:00.355
Alright.

02:30:01.090 --> 02:30:01.380
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

02:30:01.385 --> 02:30:01.735
Okay.

02:30:01.735 --> 02:30:02.155
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Bye-bye.

02:30:02.395 --> 02:30:03.145
Rupert Isaacson: Bye-bye.

02:30:03.568 --> 02:30:06.948
I hope you enjoyed today's
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02:30:07.778 --> 02:30:11.528
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02:30:21.428 --> 02:30:21.778
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02:30:25.548 --> 02:30:29.498
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02:30:32.318 --> 02:30:35.348
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02:31:08.303 --> 02:31:11.853
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02:31:12.653 --> 02:31:16.443
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02:31:17.373 --> 02:31:17.923
Ride free.