Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.
Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times bestselling author of
The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.
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So now let's jump in.
Welcome back to Live Free, ride Free.
I couldn't be more excited because today I've got Tulga Otgonbaatar, who, those
of you who know the Horse Boy story will remember that there was a very, very long
suffering man called Tulga Otgonbaatar who came with his son Tomo, who actually
organized the whole Horse Boy trip.
Without toga, nothing would've happened.
And then Tomo Toga's son was Rowan's first friend ever.
And then Tomo and Toga came together on the journey up to the reindeer people.
And we haven't seen each other in almost 20 years, but we've been, you know, we
keep up with each other a little bit by email and social media and so on, but to
have Tulga Otgonbaatar sitting in front of me looking frankly no older than he
did almost 20 years ago is, is wonderful.
And what we've just been chatting about before we hit record was that
in a year and a half, it will be the 20 year anniversary of the Horse Boy.
And I think we should do some sort of journey to Mongolia, some sort
of pilgrimage really with Rowan, get Rowan and Tommo back together.
So hold on for that.
So, so Tulga Otgonbaatar, thanks so much for coming on.
It's so good to see you.
What I want to talk about on this episode is nature and the mind.
So as you know, since we were with you in Mongolia, a whole movement started
through horse Boy, where now we work with autistic and people with all kinds
of neuropsychiatric conditions in about 40 countries including work with horses
but not limited to work with horses.
And we have these three methodologies, horse boy method, movement method,
which is with no horses, and something called takin borrowed from your
Mongolian word for the WildHorse.
Honored one.
Revered one, which is how you train the horse to do this work.
And we do that as its own therapy for people with trauma, adults
with autism, that sort of thing.
So what happened, what we did out there in Mongolia almost 20 years ago
has spread across the world into this work with nature and the mind in a way
that I could not really have foreseen.
When we were struggling up those mountains together to see the reindeer
people and wondering if they would even be there and engaging in all those.
Shamanic ceremonies, which clearly bore more fruit than we
could have imagined at the time.
So I think a lot of people who watch the Horse Boy and Read The Horse
Boy know You, but they know you, of course, as you appear in that story,
what they don't know is the toga that started nomadic trails and why you
did that, and why you decided to work with Nature and the Mind and so on.
So let me just turn over the first question to you.
A thank you for coming on the show, and B, why did you decide to go into this
line of work of bringing people out to experience the great Mongolian step?
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes.
Rupert, so, so nice to see you again.
And we were having a chat just before it started you recording it.
So even though I'd like to really say hello and again, so nice to
catch you up after so many years.
It's almost 20 years, so I'm so excited that seeing things
I have heard you wanted to.
Have some this talk with me.
So I was quite excited and been started thinking all over again.
And since 2006 we have been started, you know, chatting and exchanging emails.
Then it just, the old memories came back to me and I was really, really excited.
So, yes, here we are.
Alright, back to your question.
How did it all started?
This is something, you know, back in the 1990s I started learning English.
'cause you know, Mongolia was a country where dominated by
Russians in German Soviet period.
Even we were independent country, so we had to learn Russian all the time.
So in the late 1990s I was one of the one of the lads who could, who
I could speak English in Mongolia.
So only the company in Mongolia has chosen me to be a tool guide.
So this is how it all started.
So I it's like the job has found me.
So I had, after so many years of.
Of the tool guiding job.
And I decided to run my own company in 2004.
So then I had an opportunity to contact it with you.
So then it all started, this is how it began.
Rupert Isaacson: But what, what's interesting to me is that when people
think about Mongolia, they, they obviously think about the step, they think about the
nature and the nomadic people and so on.
But of course, as you know, Oland, Batar, where you live, it's a big
city and it's very much a city and you are some of somewhat of a city boy.
Why did you decide to make your living not with the multinational companies,
not with the oil and gas companies, because, you know, you could have done
that or, you know, the legal side of big business with your language skills.
You could have easily gone that corporate route and made a lot of
money, probably you know, working with China and, and all of that.
Why did you decide No, what I want to do is, is work with nature.
I want to get out of the city and, and into the step and show people that,
Tulga Otgonbaatar: yes.
I remember when, when we met first time Inba city the capital of Mongolia.
As soon as you landed, I took you in a vehicle and driving into the town and
they said, wow, Lamber a city something.
Not really nice, actually.
So then I said, what you said why you chosen this place?
And I said, I was born in, so I'm the city boy.
That is my, the first very first answer.
Yes.
You know, working in, in this field and also taking the people
out in the beautiful nature, I think it's action, isn't it?
It's the passion sits in me and traveling within a beautiful landscape.
It's just really enjoyable, you know, get get it out of, you know,
leaving the city behind and you know, enjoying all the nature.
And, and also it's not only the nature, it's the, the counter itself, you know,
visiting nomads in the people living out in this, in the place out in the.
It's another another different experience.
I always enjoy traveling, you know, within a country and the countryside
and still visiting families.
And I wanted to show the world about, you know, how Ong Orleans we leave, still
surviving actually in, in this modern world, rapidly changing the modern worlds.
It's just, we keep our tradition as well.
Of course.
It's beautiful nature as well.
And the same time, yes, the mining is so big in Mongolia.
Besides that, you know, this, there were so many opportunities for sure,
opportunities, but yes I wanted to show Mongolia to the world and the show, it
show all the experience about Mongolia to all the people who comes to Mongolia.
That was my the main, main thing, main goal is still
been sitting so strong in me.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I, I think that there's something which
struck me early about the people in Mongolia was people were kind.
This was the first, you know, we, we showed up with a very difficult boy.
You know, Rowan was not easy.
He was probably at his most difficult back then.
And he obviously presented all kinds of challenges.
Do you remember once he hit that lady over the head with a plastic bottle out
of the, out of the blue in the place where we were at those sacred springs.
And then he, you knows, through these tantrums everywhere.
And I had been with Rowan in many places by then.
I'd been with him in Russia.
I'd been with him in other parts of the USA and Europe.
What was interesting to me was always people's reactions to him.
And even the lady who he hit over the head with the bottle she wasn't pleased about
it, but people reacted to Rowan with a real sort of kindness and curiosity in
Mongolia that was noticeable from day one.
And it really didn't matter where we were.
There was this sort of kindness and acceptance and everywhere that we
showed up, whether it was in the towns or whether it was in nomadic
camps, we'd be riding through these nomadic camps and people would come to.
Or camping close by, people would come to find out who we
were and what we were doing.
And it wasn't just their reaction to Roman, it was their reaction to all of us.
Why do you think there is this quality of kindness among the Mongolian people?
Tulga Otgonbaatar: It just interesting when you said there were moments I started
just thought of that lady, and you, you, you picked up that the exactly same thing.
So, it seems you have the very same feelings as well, so Yes.
I do remember that you know, magical moment.
That was a nice evening.
So we were nearby the holy the spring water area.
There was all of a sudden know he picked up the, the bottle, the
box, a bottle and started pouring through what all of a sudden he hit.
And the lady wasn't really pleased.
Yes, that I remember that.
And I also, I had the feeling, you know, a little bit anxious feeling
because of, you know, she might react and, maybe do something else.
So I was a bit worried, but and, and you know, overall I thought, oh, okay.
She, she will, you know, she will take it easy because this is a little boy.
'cause in Mongolia we treat a little boys and kids, and that's way, and I
think we are more patient when it comes to the, so we always say it's forgiven.
Forgiven because it, I think it's in our culture, you know, to be
more respectful to and nature, respectful to kids and elders.
Yeah, elder people.
So this is our culture in our genes.
So it's been carried over a thousand of years.
So I think it's one of the ways, you know, we, especially, you know, the foreignness
when, when, when they come, when you come to Mongolia and we still, you know, would
think, okay, he could make a mistake.
She could make a mistake because this he or she is new in here, it's fine.
And also it's, you know, and thousands of years that's experience
of, you know, forgiveness.
We always had it, that it's, that helps a lot.
Then I think it's most foreigners in Mongolia, they, they really.
You know, en enjoy that experiences.
I think it seems, you know, the first among goal is we look in quiet, you
know, poker face or you know, we don't we don't see show our emotions immediately.
Then, you know, people start talking and smiling.
Maybe just a little bit of ice breaking afterwards.
Then we start having, you know, that big laugh and start, you
know, even we cannot talk.
So we show using the hands language
Rupert Isaacson: and
Tulga Otgonbaatar: so on.
I think it's should be related to our nature as well.
'cause our, the weather in here is so harsh, so we have to be patient.
You know, in the wintertime it just very cold, so it just already minus 20 Celsius
in degrees at night in Mongolia already.
So, but in summertime it's quite opposite.
So pleasant.
So it can be quite hot.
So I would say the weather makes the Mongolians be patient
and it helps a lot, I think.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: It's, it's interesting too, because.
From the European perspective of Mongolia, we remember the history, you know, and
one of the first things that one sees when Mon goes to Mongolia, outside Ula,
there's this huge statue of Genghis Kahan.
And oh, he's the national hero, of course, you know, to people in Europe.
He's like, he's the guy that killed everybody.
And not just him, but Kla Khan and Tamerlan and all these guys.
And what's so interesting is that the, he, you, you talk about the, a
heritage of kindness and forgiveness over thousands of years, but of course
there was a long period of Mongolian's history where Mongolia was perhaps the
most aggressive, almost psychopathic country on the planet in terms of
the reach that it had, you know, from the Pacific to the Mediterranean.
Every couple of generations we kill everybody and then sort of get a bit
tired and then go back to Mongolia, and then two generous days later,
you know, oh, kill everybody.
And then it stopped.
Why did it stop?
What, what, what changed the Mongo culture from this sort of ultra aggressive,
almost parasitic, you know, relationship with the world to this sort of current,
as you say, kindness, patience.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Well, this is a very big question to
answer that is not any easy.
I try and to answer it.
So basically, you know, living out in the step of Mongolia you think peaceful
quiets, but a lot going, I think in somehow during the trip, during the
tour, I think we had a little bit of, at this conversation already,
but back in 20 years, and so, yes.
Did he, you know, in the, in Mongolia Chin can he is like, the grand, grand father.
He's like king of kings.
So it's like, for us, it's just like, unofficial religion.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: And official a god.
So if someone talks bad about him, the Mongo go go really angry and sort of bad.
So it's like, I would say this is more like religion to us.
So he's the national hero.
So yes, when you leave the country.
In Europe and somewhere, somewhere in the western world and
somewhere the part of the world.
So it was known as, you know, the big one of the big the war
machines and murderer killer.
And, you know, in that way, yes, I agree with that because of all
the history was written, those countries who were defeated by moguls.
So this is how they describe moguls, you know, well, any war
never been, never, never been.
You know, like, so, so I think Mongols did their part that's in
the big history in the, in the past.
So that's 800 years ago they did, I would say they did their part.
So we still have their genes in blood for sure.
Yes.
But you know, after that, so many things changed.
It's, you know, Mongolians converted into Bud Buddhist country
in the, in the 16th century.
Mm.
We changed the shamanic world to Buddhist and you know, we were under the
maturing, one of the nomadic clients.
When between the China and Mongolia, but few hundred years.
So we just kind of, we just unique history.
We were up and down a lot.
So now we are trying to come back after the, you know, the Soviet era
trying to be our own independent.
So just, we're doing good job on this.
So I think now we are all, you know, the fighting spirits has been gone really.
And I mean, not all and all, but I think mostly the fighting spirits are gone.
Things have changed.
So much have changed.
Now we started, you know, to call all these, the 13th century Mongols.
It's like they did their job.
Now it's modern day.
With, we have changed a lot.
Rupert Isaacson: Why do you think, though, there was this, because this
is a really good point, you said in the 17th century, the Buddhist, the Buddhist
religion came to Mongolia, but it was such a radically different concept to,
as you say, the warlike spirit that had been there before and such a sort of
sudden change and such a, a lasting.
And permanent change almost from night today, from the most war-like
people on the planet to one of the most peaceful peoples on the
planet within maybe two generations.
This is quite extraordinary in history.
Why do you think this happened in Mongolia?
Why did they go so suddenly?
You know, these mon, these monks must have shown up, talked about, you know,
love and peace to these people who were total warriors and instead of just killing
these guys, why do you think they went?
Yeah, that's a good idea, let's do that.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes.
This is so, interesting.
I think outside I'd outside it's unique history, so it's, it's all gone.
But in 200 years ago, the Mongols were still, you know, had the fighting
spirits and after the chink, there's so many generations of the kings.
Yeah.
And they started, you know, their own territories.
I mean, these, they call the chinks accessories they carried on their own.
One of them were like 900 and 90 years.
The other ones were.
350 years.
Yeah.
K, k Tamerlan,
Rupert Isaacson: all these guys.
Yeah, exactly.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes.
And the golden, that is the battle.
Mm-hmm.
The king.
And so they carried, they were carried on their own.
So then all of a sudden, you know, they started to struggle
each other and start to fight.
That made Mongols collapse.
So that's back in, in the 15th century then.
Ah,
Rupert Isaacson: civil wars.
Yes.
Moral,
Tulga Otgonbaatar: you know, just, you know, Mongols were
just really collapsed already.
But at same time they still had a fighting spirits and even so they were big thrill.
So in the 16 hundreds because of the big struggle, there's always
someone to take over, you know?
It's, it's in Mong golden history, if you know, one of the tribes, they
were really powerful and they united the others and ruled all the state.
So Mongols were one of the tribes who were very successful on that.
So, which, which made the old, the nomadic tribes to be united united and carried on.
So, which.
In the 15th, 16th century, the Mongols were Mongol, the nomads were losing a
power, and then all of a sudden they just collided and start to fight each other.
And they go, I mean, the URIs half nomads in half, no much
and half civilized tribes.
Later on, they were known as, you know, Chinese, URIs or Chinese.
Lots of people think would think URIs were Chinese, but the URIs
were another different types.
And they had their own states.
And all of a sudden they became one of the biggest dynasties in whole Asia.
So they took over Mongolia.
So they, they used that technique to convert Mongols, you know,
the fighting spirits they had.
And it was hard to defeat moss.
So they were patient, they used same technique, same tactic for 200 years.
And they were encouraging the man to convert into la.
And they were paid, even they paid to build monasteries in
Mongolia Temples, mon complexes.
There were so many of them were paid by man Kings and they were encouraging
people especially the males, to go to Tibet to learn Buddhism.
So basically, you know, you, it's you, you, right, Mongols
were, you know, killing machines, war machines before the fact.
Then all of a sudden, you know, there's a lot of your Buddhism
is not to kill forgiveness.
So, so it just made over the 200 years, just like many generations
after, and somehow it worked so well.
So basically then Mongols I would say reintroduced Tibetan Buddhism to Mongolia
in the 16th century, in the 17th century.
So we had our own religious leader who was one of the golden bloods,
the king's blood of the Chines.
The chin came mate himself with first Golden Bloods
blood golden Bloods line age.
So then everyone agreed 'cause of his re inclination the Buddhist.
Very first Buddhist religious leader was golden blood.
And then it just, so many things has changed in Mongol history, so,
well, I would say the Urs, they played so good roles to convert
Mongols in the 17th century.
Then things have changed a lot.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, it, I, I think that it's one of the great unsung unknown
achievements of humankind actually that the most war-like nature culture on the
planet became one of the most peaceful.
We have a similar thing in Europe actually, which is that the Vikings, you
know, Scandinavia, that area was the most, you know, the most warlike over there, and
they today are the peacekeepers of Europe.
Yes, I wonder what's gonna happen with, with the England because, you know,
we were also complete pirates, British empire aggression, and I don't think
we have achieved the same level of peacefulness and enlightenment that.
The Scandinavians or the Mongolians have, and I think, you know, it's so interesting
when people look at history, they usually, we are, we're taught the big political
events, the battles, the conquests.
What we are not taught about is these types of cultural achievements where whole
peoples decide, you know, maybe this way is not a good way, you know, for several
million people to make this change.
It's really an achievement.
And I feel that Mongolians should be really proud of this.
But it's interesting you talk about the, the, the fighting
spirit, the warlike spirit.
Of course, now in the new modern age, everybody wants
mongolia's natural resources.
So China's going in there, Russia's going in there, the western
countries are going in there.
I should imagine that something of the fighting spirit is still needed
to hold the country from being pillaged for minerals and so on.
How, how, what's, what's the situation now with that in Mongolia?
How do.
The new generation of Mongolia's, people like Tommo, your son, who obviously was
Rowan's first friend, he's facing this new situation, this new Mongolia h How
do people like him feel about this,
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Mongolia today?
It's interesting.
It's more democratic country sandwiched between Russia and China.
So if you're looking at the map world's map, it just, you know, the
huge Russia there and the China that I know in between, there's a Mongo
is blue, so it's the red Russia to red China and the Blue Mongolia.
It's a it's in our flag, the red, blue red.
So this is, so for for Mongolia, we need to be always, you know, be
aware of these two giants nowadays.
I mean, there were moments the Mongols were very powerful
and they were ruling Russia.
They were ruling China, but it's all gone this past.
So all we have is the, I know our own country independence and
the good thing is we are free.
And also another thing is.
We have our own country.
So that is a all our main, main thing.
We should be very proud of that.
And of course, it's so, rich in resources like copper, gold and coal.
Yes.
The world needs it and China, Russia, they need it for sure.
But yes, I think Mongolian nowadays, nowadays we are so smart.
I mean, still surviving in between these two giants.
Big brown Bear and the Ponder Bear, they've just been between
the Mong golden go bear there.
So we need to be very smart.
Otherwise things would go wrong easily.
I think how much, how the government they're trying, I think that their
best there is, I think there would be always complain about, you know, how the
government is running badly in situations, but still, you know, I think we have I,
I see the lights and I see, you know, the good, I mean the positiveness, a lot of
positiveness in here because of, you know, our country's more democratic country
and we have freedom to say what we think.
Even some people without thinking, without judging, we still,
you know, spread the word out.
But, you know, it just so important nowadays, and also in
the government's level they start listening the younger generations.
So the last, let's say last four years the, I would say the youth, the
younger generation, we were went out in the streets and the struck against
governments and we managed to pull the down to governments in Mongolia.
So that indicates, you know, if something goes wrong, we could,
you know, come out and fight.
And I mean, strike against governments and there's still this this kind of, you
know, these periods, we still have it.
I think it's very good sign.
And if we feel wrong, if we, if we feel bad, we could just, you know, spread
it out, you know, go out and the fights that is I think one of the basements of
that democracy, democracy in the world.
And we, I would, I wouldn't say we enjoying it, but we, we still using that.
So.
The, you know, opportunity in the, in, in the future is more positive, I would say.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I mean, you, you are, Mongolia is one of
the great intact ecosystems of the northern hemisphere, right?
It, this is immediately apparent when one is traveling there, one's looking
at Mongolia going, wow, this is the planet as it's supposed to look.
And I was always amused too, how you have the Western perspective.
People talk about Mongolia.
Outer Mongolia means the edge beyond everything.
And of course, for Mongolians, what Mongolian means is home and it's the west.
That's the edge of everything.
But that homeland, that home is such a,
a pure ecosystem.
And what I mean by pure ecosystem is people often have this idea within the
ecological movement that a pure ecosystem means an ecosystem without people.
And of course this is not true.
Humans are as much part of the ecosystem as any other animal or plant.
And so to see people still able to live in that kind of harmony.
Is, let's say it's educational.
Even though we know the life is not easy.
And then it's very apparent too when one is staying in those nomadic camps
that the quality of life is very high, even though even though the weather
is, is difficult and things are remote, people are in very good health.
People are, there's a lot of gender equality.
Children have a lot of freedom.
People look after the land.
The feeling is positive and good wherever one goes.
Is this changing?
Is this under threat and are Mongolian people as we move into this modern
age, aware that this relationship of humans to nature is something that
needs to be protected, nurtured?
And if so, how?
With the changing economy?
Lots of questions.
Wow.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: This is, this is very good question.
Yes.
I think here Mongolia is one of the countries where it's where
it's quite untouched nature.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, the Mongolia is like, 3.5
million now in population.
So it, and a huge land, it's just like a, a two person in
one square of arm averages.
So this is the lowest density in the whole world.
So even with that, so the whole country, almost the whole most of the
countries untouched, I would say so, and living in this kind of ecosystem
I totally, I totally agree with that.
The humans are part of the big eco, big part of that ecosystem system nowadays.
So whole Mongolia, I think we are so privileged to have these big lands and
in this untouched beautiful nature.
So it seems, you know, even the, the popul population is growing and we
are changing lot, lots more young generations moving to the city towns.
So there are still, you know, huge I would say the huge thoughts of, you
know, going back to being a nomad herd in young generation nowadays
'cause of let's say lamb to city.
That we say it's about 300 more than 370 years of history.
But mainly speaking, there's only four or five generations being in
settled in, in the city of a whole city where on the move, because
we're nomad, nomadic, capital city.
So
Rupert Isaacson: we
Tulga Otgonbaatar: had to move every season.
Imagine the whole couples moving one place to another after three months.
And so, so that must have been so difficult.
So only, you know, 1850s we settled plant matter cities
not start not moving from here.
So many reasons, you know, because of these traders were having difficulties
to find the capital city, right?
So if, you know, the ones we're asking each other, you know,
have you seen the, have you seen the capital Mongolian recently?
Have you seen it?
Oh, no, no.
It has moved, you know, in the northern, northern area.
So you, you might ask somebody else in, you know, coming in a
couple of weeks, they might change.
And so, so this kind of, you know, that things where thing I would say it's
so unique, it's because of the norm.
We still carried or carried that philosophy so much.
And now, even nowadays like I said, like four or five generations,
people mainly lived in the country.
So we still carrying all this philosophy or to have our own genomic culture.
So nowadays even, you know, the ones in and living in city, we,
we just quite connected easily with the people in the country.
In the normal, we always say Mongolians, every single Mongolians
they have any relatives in the country.
We have sayings where you're from.
So I would say, oh, I'm from the ub Lamberton city.
So they would say, no, no, no.
Where's your background?
So, which means, you know, your dad or your grand's father, where are they from?
So I would say, oh, from Gobi.
Oh yeah, that's it.
So that, so, which means every mongs, we have a relatives back in this country,
so we travel back and forth, and I think we not, you know, even the ones from the
city not far away from the nomad culture.
So I think this gap is just, you know, extending, extending, you
know, each generations I would say.
But, you know, the teaching our kids or without, you know, telling them, we just
bringing them to the country, traveling.
It's just the main role for families.
Even nowadays especially in summertime, the huge movement.
I mean, going back to the country during the summertime, if the whole
big thing in Mongolia, because I mean, I would say the summer in Mongolia,
one of the best places you want to be.
So, then the whole mongs, I mean, people from the city town, they would, they
would love to leave, leave it behind and go to the country for months.
And so, so that means the people still, you know, back going
back to the culture and nature.
So I think it's, it's our it's our thing and we have this, this beautiful
nature and beautiful culture.
So this is like passing it generation to generation.
But I, I still think the gap is extending, I mean the growing city and
nomad even so, the Toma like for example from Toma, our son, my son he lives
in the city, but he knows if he knows how to live in the country because I
brought him to the country quite often.
And so to, we live kind of staying there for longer to one or two months.
So this is how we.
Trying to leave our culture behind.
Even the city, the ones in the country is all right.
I mean, they, they, they do have their own problems, but you know, generally speaking
they are really happy staying over there.
Not modern days.
Things are so much improved, for example because they use the solar panels a
lot nowadays 'cause they have their own electricity to generate from the solar.
And then things are so much they have mobile phones and they watch TVs and
they have their own social medias.
They, they use Facebook a lot.
So, yes more than normal, I would say happy, I would say really happy
living out in the, the country.
Rupert Isaacson: Your, the place I know that's closest to your heart
in Mongolia is actually not the area that we were in where we, we were up
in Siberia with the reindeer people.
I know that for you, the place closest to your heart is the Gobi, is the desert.
Why is that?
Because it's, it's known as one of the harshest.
Landscapes on Earth, one of the most difficult places to survive,
extremes of temperature, very little rainfall, et cetera.
What is it about the Gobi that's such a special place?
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes.
You see, when you, when you think about Mongolia, the Gobi comes out and
quite a few things come up for sure.
It seems the Gobi Desert it's been, firstly, I would say is firstly
it's been advertised so much.
And the secondly,
there are so much of the natural resources there.
Mm-hmm.
Third, I would say a Gobi itself is just a really fascinating place.
So if we think of desert, so, the Africa Sahara anywhere in the continent
is, would have our own big deserts.
So for mobility, the Goby deserts it just gets cold really.
And we, we have snow in the Goby in the wintertime, and also it can
be really green in the summertime.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Same time, you know, you see this.
Picture the filter behind me, the background was taken in the goby.
Okay.
You can't imagine that.
No.
Yes, you would take a step, but it's in the goby, down in the south Goby.
How
Rupert Isaacson: interesting.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Taking it last year.
So it's like that.
So it's just incredible changes.
You can see incredible changes, incredible places for sure to I think
there's a very good energy as well.
So huge emptiness and the wilderness, wild games.
So much of that, so much of in there.
And the sand juice, of course.
Sand dunes big tall mountains that we have.
And snow leopards and mountain goats and mountain heap.
So many things there.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Makes me want to go immediately.
Let's, let's talk about the spiritual aspect of the nature in Mongoli.
Mm-hmm.
So this is still obviously a part of the world where shamanic culture is unbroken.
Even though the Soviets tried to break it, they couldn't.
And obviously I myself am a recipient of the power of that
healing culture because the child that we went out to Mongolia with.
And the child we came back from Mongolia with were two very different children.
And you and I both observed Rowan's healing as we made our journey
from, do you remember that first ritual outside of Ula Batar where
they whipped me and and Kristen.
And I remember the watching the guy come across to me with the whip,
and I'm like, he's gonna whip me.
And I turned to you and I, I said, is he gonna whip me?
And you went, ha, maybe a little bit.
It's important not to cry out.
And he whipped me so hard, he whipped me right across my groin.
And it was like I left my body in that moment with the pain,
but managed not to cry out.
But what was so interesting about that, these of course were the shamans
of the horse people, the steps was that I, at no point got any, any
feeling that these people were trying to do anything other than help us
with the best technology, spiritual technology that they had available.
And of course, it was during that first ritual, which was in some ways
so difficult that Rowan made his first friend with your son, with Tomo.
And then.
Each healer that we visited, Rowan became more and more present.
And then by the time we were up with the reindeer people, the three days of
healing there with ghost, the reindeer healer, 27 hours after we came down
that mountain, Rowan did his first intentional shit and cleaned himself.
And I always say this was like watching England win the World Cup.
It really was.
And we never looked back.
And then if you remember, ghost told me that I had to do these
three more healing journeys.
So I did to Africa, to Australia, to the Navajo reservation.
And everything that Ghost said would happen happened.
And I know that I'm not the only one who has had this experience.
And it's so interesting when we got back to the West and I published the
story and made the film, of course they were successful, these stories in the
film, but with success comes criticism.
And a lot of people also attacked us and said, oh, you are saying,
you know, shamanism cures autism or horses cure autism?
And said, no, no, we're not.
But what we are saying is.
That there is a difference between healing and cure.
Cure implies that you take something out completely.
Rowan is still autistic.
He, he, he, okay.
He lives pretty independently now.
He has his own car.
He has his own house.
He has a two, three jobs.
He travels by himself.
He, but he's still
autistic.
That is part of him.
But the great gifts come with that autism.
But the healing of the suffering that he was going through, the incontinence, the
tantruming, the inability to make friends, the isolation, it was Mongolia and the
contact with the nature and the shamans of Mongolia that really changed this.
It was, there was a child who arrived in Mongolia and there was
a very different child who got on the plane to leave Mongolia.
You have of course seen this happen time and time again.
You've taken many people to see Shannon's talk to us about your experience.
What do you feel is going on?
And you yourself were not, you were not necessarily brought up
with this experience because as you say, you were a city boy.
So this was something that really came through your, your career showing people.
Mongolia and Mongolian culture, what are your impressions?
Why do you think the Mongolian shamans are still so effective?
And yeah, just, just talk to us about your impressions of this.
Mm-hmm.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes.
Well, that was quite a lot of questions
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
That I had to take.
Yes.
I apologize.
Take it down.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Just start wherever you wanna start.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Okay.
To begin with, Mongolia Shamanism.
During the Soviet, even during the Soviet period they were very strongly
pressed all the religion in Mongolia.
You know, mon, during the Soviet period, period, let's say 1980s, the Mongolia
was claiming the country with, with that a 99% not religious country.
Because of, you know, we killed all the monks and destroyed all the monasteries.
There's more than 700 complexes were destroyed.
I mean, the monastery complexes with been destroyed.
Lamas being purged and the 1930s and killed 30,000 lamas and monks.
Including salmons as well.
So just, you know, we have gone through really the dark periods
during that Soviet period.
And even so, you know, more in the, the Virgin North where in the remoteness
where remote country mountains and the people still practiced shamanism and
that's made they didn't, you know, I mean they irritated themselves in past
that shamanism generation generations.
This is how they managed firstly.
So that's why Mongolian shamanism stayed alive a lot during, even
during that dark period of Soviets.
So, I'm glad you came to Mongolia and found, and you did your own work and the
horses and the shamanism and the big open, open place, so suited for the kids kids.
This is, that was your choice.
I think I'm so grateful for that because of, you know, you said in 2006
my, you mentioned my son is autistic.
To begin with that.
So in Mongolia I did, I've never heard of that.
And I've asked my, you know, the doctor, friends and whoever
in this psychiatric part.
No one knew.
No one knew what the autism was.
That was really, really something.
Then I asked, what is autism?
How was your kids condition?
You wrote two pages of a letter and I read it and I couldn't
figure out you know, completely.
I thought, Hmm, it's something wrong with, you know, the mantle
or something is really different.
I may have never seen it before.
And I talked to my friends and they never experienced, they
never had this experience.
They knew Monga Lloyds, they knew someone, something else, but, and I, I shouldn't,
I shouldn't mention that to Monga Lloyds.
So, down syndrome,
Rupert Isaacson: we, we call it Yeah,
Tulga Otgonbaatar: exactly.
It, the syndrome down.
And then by the time it was, it named Mongoloid, but I'm glad it's
changed to down, but they don't, they don't mention it anymore.
So it's Down Syndrome and yes, so.
I would say after you came to Mongolia and leave left the country and you wrote the
book about it then the movie was released.
That's a movie was shown in, on Mongo, on Mongolia TVs.
All the TVs, I would say all of them.
They, they showed to Mongolia a lot, maybe I would say, over and over.
So then the people started to understand what the autism was and
now it's the one, you know, the, whenever we say autism, it just, you
know, people know it's already Yeah.
And we accept the kids, you know, the behavior of the kids and the parents.
You know, it just, you know, everything about autism is accepted
after you left the country.
We made the movie we wrote a book about it.
So we, I think we should be very thankful for you during that.
Moving on to that, you know, the very first this, this shamanic
ceremony out outside of just a little bit outside of lamb to city
and in the bottom of the mountain.
When you start mentioning about it, all my memories came back.
I mean, it just there was nine shamans and, you know, they started one by one
and all of a sudden one of them I didn't, I I, I wouldn't say that he'd decided to,
we, but they just, I think the naturally, I mean, just one of the, they, their
methods I knew it was coming and I was like, you know, trying to make it soft to
tell you softer way, but I like the ways.
But yes, at the end it was, I mean, it was hit so hard I could see that.
Oh,
Rupert Isaacson: oh,
Tulga Otgonbaatar: oh, yeah.
That was, I would say, so intense and to describe that.
But, you know, at the end things changed immediately.
I mean, that is a thing, you know.
Then Toma arrived and arrives with, with his mom, my wife,
in the middle of the ceremony.
Then he starts to running, he start running to towards,
to Towa and start hugging.
And you were so happy with that.
And we'd never, he'd
Rupert Isaacson: never done that before to another child, ever.
Like never.
Mm.
And it happened in the middle of that ceremony.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Exactly.
That was very, I mean, it's magical moment, one of the magical moments.
So for us, it just, 'cause I, I've never experienced the autism before
and it was like quite common.
And I thought, Hmm, why, why is he so happy about it?
And, and also when we, in a few days we left the, left the country
and we were driving and all of a sudden we stopped and the kids went
out and start to play the pirates.
And you were extraordinary, extra happy with that.
So then I, I thought, hmm, this is normal.
We kids can play each other.
So that means I've, we've, we've never known the autism before.
We've never experienced this and I've never experienced it before.
So then after you left, I realized a lot about the, the autism and how
it works and also how the, the main thing is how the community accepted.
That is a very interesting, and after you left and the movie released
book was released, and it was painted in Mon Mongolian after the,
was it if I'm not mistaken, 22nd language, and that was Mongolian.
And people read it and watched it a lot.
And people contacted in Mongolia.
Mongolia contacted me a lot, and all of a sudden there were so many autistic
kids came out and this, the com community started to accept them, you know, and
then it made huge changes, I would say.
It made huge changes, right?
So
Rupert Isaacson: As you know, if you followed any of my work, I'm
an autism dad and we have a whole career before this podcast in helping
people with neurodivergence, either who are professionals in the field.
Are you a therapist?
Are you a caregiver?
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When my son, Rowan, was diagnosed with autism in 2004,
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And she told me what to do.
And it's been working so amazingly for the last 20 years.
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We really want to know.
We really want to help people like me, people like you, out there
live their best life, to live free, ride free, see what happens.
I had no idea that the book and that the story was so influential
within Mongolia, I didn't know that
Tulga Otgonbaatar: it had had this big effect.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, well, that's good.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yeah.
It's good.
Yes, it's good.
And I've met a few people, you know, from the, they even have sessions.
Sessions and trying to, you know, they bring up the kids in the norm in the
normal classrooms and things like that.
It just happens.
And I'm not sure what's happening right now, and things are so much change there.
So I, I think the
immediately we learned autism and we immediately suffered the autism
in Port Mongo whole Mongolia.
So it's a big thing for me, you know, as a city boy growing without any religion
and, when the collapse of the communism were allowing us to have our own religion.
So Mongos picked up Buddhism, but I followed it and I tried to go to monastery
Tibetan Buddhist monastery in here.
So then started to seeing some of the shamans and just one or two only,
and just getting, you know, just had a little about understanding, little
understanding of how it works and things were, you know, still, and very
small experience with that religion.
So all of a sudden, and you came and things changed, changed and my
knowledge of, you know, the shamanism started to gaining a lot and meeting
big shams and shams after that even things so much have changed.
Yes.
So, wow.
Thank you from the Mongolians to making all this, you know, efforts make change
the Mongolian perspective of shaman, no.
The autism in Mongolia.
Autism how it works so much so.
I think it was, well, wow.
I wasn't
Rupert Isaacson: expecting this at all.
Thank you so much.
I, you know, it's always good to have
yeah.
I, I, I, I had no idea.
I had no idea.
I have seen, you know, some of the effects of what we've done in the
West, but I, I didn't know that it had had such a profound effect for
people like my son in, in Mongolia.
So I'm, I'm very grateful to hear this.
Thank you.
Why do you think,
what do you, you know, I, I have my own theories about why Shamanism works
when it works well, because I've seen it now in so many, in so many contexts,
and it's always interesting to me.
I do understand why people are skeptical, but there's, I always
have a question for people when they say, well, these guys are, it's,
it's gotta be bullshit, you know?
And I say, well, if it was bullshit, honestly, most of the people that
live in those areas would be dead because they live so far from any
kind of western medicine that if this was not effective they would
not be there because people get sick.
Mm-hmm.
And, you know, so.
And then usually the people who are very skeptical have nothing to say to that
argument, but I do understand why they have trouble accepting it, because of
course, it's outside of their experience.
What is it that you, you now have had quite a lot of experience with this
because after the horse boy, I know quite a few autism families contacted you and
also came out wanting to see shamans.
You've, you, you've had a lot more contact with it now.
What do you think makes it so effective?
Tulga Otgonbaatar: You said earlier the clearing, caring,
and healing is different.
I totally agree with that.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: So the healing power is something something they
were given really determines Yes.
Modern days.
Now everyone know if we don't like it, we say, I don't like you, I
don't like it, so I don't trust it.
So yes, it's, it's up to the people.
Yes, that's fine.
It so things like the shamanism, shamans or who.
Really believe in that and following it.
And I do respect them.
And in some, some, somehow it seems a lot of people, they want a magic.
Hmm.
They want things to change immediately.
They want to change now or they want to change completely.
I think it's the one of the ways I mean, one of the expectations from
the people when, whenever they see the shamans or to do the ceremony, I
think it seems it's a little bit of diff different expectations, isn't it?
Mm-hmm.
And
then, you know, afterwards or you know, the ceremony happens, the healing happens.
It's, it's, it's more of, you know, healing than your body.
It's the, the mind soul, it's the energy itself.
You know, things are, it's a combination, I would say.
It's a combination.
You can't just, you know, it's also, you know, the nature, beautiful nature and
the animals, horses, it's everything.
It's a combination of everything.
I would say.
To heal that the ones, whatever the, the cause of the illness.
So when you come to approach the chairman to, to asking
whatever the, the reason was.
I think it's the combination.
I would say yes.
Channels can do the magic.
I would say yes.
Channels cannot do magic, I would say no.
They just, you know, people nowadays, they like to judge or they like to
make a decisions before they try it.
It seems a lot of people, I mean, they try a little bit and they just give up.
So things are like that.
And more than days is quite, quite a lot happening.
A lot I would say
yes.
Whole tribe whole in the northern region.
They still practice very strongly that shamanic practices there very strong.
And they still carry, carry, carry.
These practice runs.
Over the years and years, so many years now.
But, you know, they still believe in that.
It's the, you know, the purpose is not only, you know, the healing.
It's not only, you know, to do the magic words.
It's just there practice.
I think we should accept it in that way too.
In that way too.
Rupert Isaacson: Have you, have, you yourself sought out healing from some of
the shaman since the horse voice story?
Have you begun to use this in your life
mm-hmm.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Since you left?
I, I kind of worked more than 200 shas.
Rupert Isaacson: Wow.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes.
I just start to see more and more.
There were new shamans.
There were, you know, s from the Western Mongolia.
There were shamans in the Kirby.
I was really excited to see them and work with them and asking a lot of
questions and try to appeal their energy.
Ceremonies.
So many ceremonies.
Yes, I have been asking and to do healing myself.
No, not really.
But you know,
most of the time I was with someone else.
And then I hadn't had much of time to ask myself.
And only a few questions, but very practical questions like
there's something which bother me and I cannot achieve things.
And I, I go, the chairman he said he, he did his ceremony and he
looked at me and said, I took there was a key or tool of your car.
You sold your car, you sold it, and you kept, you kept
the key or you know, the tool.
But he said the key you still have it extra key?
And I said, no yes, I sold my car, but I, I never thought I, I kept the, the key.
And he, he said, it, it might be some tool.
You, you, you ha still have it that is bothering, there's something
causing for you to have, you know, this kind of spiritual,
spiritually new, spiritual mind new.
So I said, okay, I'll check.
Then then I came back and home.
I went to my home and I found the key, found the key.
So I thought, Hmm, I've never known that.
So then I had to dump it and do some ceremonies to clear up.
And this kind of magic really works.
Yes.
And what happened after
Rupert Isaacson: you did that?
Tulga Otgonbaatar: I think after that I clearly, I was I clearly re remembered
that because of, you know, I was, I think I was trying to get something,
but it didn't work so much on that.
I thought I couldn't achieve it, and it was related with something my
financial situation and is related to bank and things like that.
So after that it just smoothly smoothly fixed.
Yeah.
And I thought, wow, wow, wow.
Yes, it worked.
So other than that, I've never had that feeling for myself
only, you know, I was chatting.
Ghost the shaman and the other shamans a lot.
What happens if I do this and that once if I meet the load of the mountain, in the
mountain that kind of questions I, I've have had, I mean, conversations a lot.
Rupert Isaacson: What was his answer to What happens if you
meet the Lord of the mountain?
And also what is the Lord of the mountain?
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Oh yes.
The Lord of the mountain, the Mongolia, every big mountains and big rivers
rivers, they have a master who owns it.
And we have to be respectful.
Otherwise, they get angry.
If they get angry, they could hurt you.
So then once, and it's when there was a time I was chatting
with the chairman about it.
So I felt a lot of the mountain maybe is quite scary.
It can be quite aggressive.
'cause someone new, hearing new.
So he might hurt me because no, no, all.
He wouldn't dare to hurt you.
Only thing if you, if you do bad things, then he can hurt you.
So what would be his, you know, I was asked, asked him what the
creature, you know, I could tell, oh, he's the, the lord of a mountain.
How can I recognize the Lord of a mountain?
So the said, oh, it's simple.
He can, he can come out like a small boy or the beautiful deer or a bear.
It can, you know, it can be anything.
But you don't have to be afraid of.
Only thing I is afraid of is you know, the bad spirits who's been too old and
too naughty too I mean, lived long and starting to starting to give them the,
you know, the bad energies to people.
Then you have to be a very aware of that.
I remember that he said.
So then, then.
I asked him, what happens if that's bad?
There's a ghost, or it's like a devil.
Take it over me.
Can I just, you know, get, get rid of, get rid of it by myself?
He said, no, you can't.
You need someone like me.
That was, he said, that was very interesting conversation we had.
Rupert Isaacson: And one of the things I, well one of the things I suspect is that
through having brought so many people to see the shamans in the last 20
years you have been present at a lot of healing ceremonies, I presume.
And just as I have, you know, I've been present at a lot of ceremonies from in
many, many different countries, um mm-hmm.
Usually for other people.
And I think what happens when one does this is you of course,
always get healing as well.
And I think there's also something healing about arranging healings for other
people, and then of course, so that's what that, that's healing in and of itself.
Then the second thing is.
You are there during the ceremony, some of that energy is going to come to you.
And I like you, I, I spent so many years helping people
find shamans and healers and not just my son, but you know, other
people for other reasons too.
Thank you.
Say what?
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yeah, thank you.
That's a lovely compliment.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, yeah.
You, you've, you've, you've really helped to heal a lot of people and Of course.
So therefore you have received a lot of healing yourself.
Yes.
The, the first time I think that I really went just for myself was I think 2018.
And then I did it again in 2021 with the, with the healer that I, on the
Navajo reservation that I took Rowan to at the last of the three healings that
the Mongolian Shaman GOs told me to do.
And it took me all those years before I went for my own healing.
Mm.
But I think that I have really benefited from.
Being part of those ceremonies and, and arranging those ceremonies for others.
And I think the same has happened to you.
I think that you've been a catalyst for the healing for many, many people.
And this must have, you know, had a very good effect on you because I'm,
I'm sitting here looking at you.
You are nearly 60.
You look great.
You know, your health is good.
You, you, you, you still have the air of a, of a young man.
Um
mm-hmm.
Tell us some of the, the other people who've come now
through you to see healers.
There must be certain stories that stand out, not just the horse boy
story, but there must be Yeah.
Certain other people that you brought that have had really strong healings.
Can you tell us any of these?
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Wow.
Where can I start?
I think, you know, when the book was released, it's 2009, there was a huge
thing from Mongolia, even now, the Mongolian tourism few of my the tourist.
Company's friends who work and chosen company or run the company's dimensions.
You know, half of their tourist clients when they come, they all read
the book, the book, the Horse Boy, and the other half already purchased and they,
they wanted to read it during the trip.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: And I've met so many of them and the Mon in Mongolia,
they reading the book, the Horse Boy, I always, you know, I was
always impressed and were happy.
And there's a question I was, I always ask, which part
do you enjoy it more, most?
And then they carry on to talking about, you know, the nine shaman
ceremonies, the whipping part.
Wow.
This is, this is the part that people, people always bring it up.
Bring it out and want to talk or want to share that that part of the story.
So I always, you know, to tell them stories and how it went and
and I was happy to share them.
What happens in there.
And also there were some other stories behind the story, behind it's like
behind the scene which I've never told, I think to told you some of them.
I would like to share that maybe just a little bit.
Then it just changed a lot the perspective of tourism in Mongolia before the horse
board movie in two thousands 10 ish.
And the, all, the, most of the movies about Mongolia were not a good side.
I would say.
They were mentioning about three children.
They were mentioning about, you know, Mongolia, the whole economy is going
down, but the countryside is beautiful, but still, there's something, you know,
going and not really happening, but the.
Horse Boy Booty came out.
I think it changed quite a lot, quite a lot of, you know, the movie makers.
They, they started to see Mongolias in another beautiful country and also Wow.
It's the country itself is just different.
The shamanism Wow.
Has seemed, there's so many the videos came, I mean, come out about the
shamanism in Koreans, French well, I'm not sure who else, who else did it.
So it changed a lot in the the tourism back, the tourism
perspective while in the meeting.
A lot of shamans Wow.
Things changed a lot after that.
Then all of a sudden, the whole Mongolia, you know, start to change.
People start to practice shamanism after that a lot.
And the, the ones now, then they're not normal.
They start thinking themselves around.
They can be shaman.
Rupert Isaacson: Ah, yes.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: And then a couple of years later, they have to stop it.
So that's why I wanted to see a lot.
Germans throughout Mongolia and to have conversation, conversation
and to try that the ceremonies, whether it's really happening or not.
Mm-hmm.
And of course it was boom, there was boom in Mongolia.
And again, when you mentioned people criticized a lot.
Yes, it happens in Mongolia as well.
And every time there was a big criticism happening.
The chairman's always, you know, they said, Hey, if you don't believe
it, watch the movie The Horse Boy.
There's a movie, there's a real shaman movie.
Hey, you need to watch it.
This is something like that.
So, I think in, in the world of this cha sha shamanism or shamanic practices, the
horse boy had stepped too, too deep and there was big, huge movement left there.
Pains.
Then yes experiencing a lot of shamanic ceremonies, I think.
In each time I could feel it.
Yes.
It just happening whenever I start feeling just happening.
It's just, yes.
The work, the work.
When you describe Catalyzer, so I think Catalyzer, this is, I
really liked it, so yes, it does.
I I haven't come up.
The point I wanted to hear myself with the shaman, I think in each time the
ceremony is happening there's some of, I mean, some of shamans, they are already
better mind and, and they gave me a good energy and some, some of them, some small
ceremonies even I experienced it for sure.
And I have a few good German friends now in the Northern Mongolia and
some somewhere, which is, yes, things are now, I mean, coming back to,
you know, there's so many of them became Germans and had to stop.
So I think Mongolia, we, we, we had to, you know, we'd gone through and
that's the big test I would say.
And now the real shamans or shamanism still practicing here and there and
it just a little bit, you know, to cool it down, but still, you know,
the people still very strongly living shamanism and following it.
Well, to me, sadly when the people, they only needed it,
they go and ask to help them.
Not practicing it, not respecting it, just only I want to, you
know, to get something from you.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: I can pay you, I can pay you, I can, that's fine.
But you know, you need to understand what is it, and you need to, you
know, I respect and practice it.
Then it just, you know, things, things would go in order.
Otherwise you just, you know, it's trading.
Sadly it happens a lot.
Then sometimes I could say, hmm, things not working that way.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
I think, I think that that one could say the same thing though
about Western medicine and that people will go to see a doctor.
But whether one follows the doctor's recommendations.
Or what, what people sometimes do, sometimes don't.
Not every doctor is a good doctor.
Some doctors misdiagnose and are arrogant.
Mm-hmm.
Others doctors are very humble and very good.
You don't know till you try.
But the system of medicine as a whole is a very good thing.
And I would say that's quite similar within the Shamanic.
And I think you're right, that in, in the last 20 years, there were a lot
of people who felt a desire to become shamans who were not going to go through
the rigorous three decades of training with a man like Ghost Up in Siberia, or
that, that it takes to really actually do this in the same, it would be a
little bit like saying, well, I want to be a medical doctor, but I'm not
really gonna go to medical school.
You know?
Um mm-hmm.
Well, yeah.
But what is also true with this is that, you know, and the, the Bushman
in Africa say this a lot, that they say about 50% of people can heal.
But a much smaller minority of those people have a, if you like a vocational.
Pull, but you still need this system of training if it's really going to work.
And this system of training is about three decades.
Yeah.
It's, it's very, very long.
Which of course, if you're living in the community where you are practicing
your healing, but you're also a hunter or you're a reindeer herder, or you're
a horse herder or whatever, well, your apprenticeship to the older shaman is just
going to be built in to your way of life.
But if you are yeah, living in the city trying to have a job and
doing this on the weekends, this is difficult because you are not you're
not really immersed in that world.
And I could see how even in Mongolia, particularly in the city in where
people would've felt perhaps a real with desire to connect with that
culture, but without really living that culture, there could have been a boom
in, let's say not so good practice.
But as you say, once that cools off, then the people who are still living
out in the remote rural district, practic this thing that they've always
practiced, well, they're still there.
And those people are independent of fashions or, or fads.
Mm-hmm.
That said, probably some of the people within Mongo, within Ula
Batar itself probably were good healers or perhaps still are.
But just, yeah, maybe not with access to the best mentorship.
But in terms of you, you know, you've been going all over the country now
and been exposed to a lot of healers.
Have you seen some similar types of story to Rowans to the Horse Boy?
Have you seen some healings that really did leave a lasting change
Tulga Otgonbaatar: in last 20 years?
I have worked quite a few families.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
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Tulga Otgonbaatar: Some of them received a recommendation from you
and some of them found me internet.
Yes,
I think there was a family they came to Lia.
They were, they're, they're from New York.
And we've, we took it quite shorter trip than us.
So ours were quite a long one.
Lasted like four weeks, isn't it?
Mm.
In, then, then with that family we had about a couple of weeks and that
time the ghost chairman, he was alive and we were sticking to, to see him.
And yes, we did see him as well.
And we had the ceremonies of
city and mom wasn't, was like, I told why it's not happening in the book.
It worked immediately.
The boy changed immediately.
Mm-hmm.
Why is not, isn't happening.
So I was like, okay.
Every kid is different.
We have to wait.
We need to be we, because it's, it's the only I mean it's not only Germans.
We, we need to take the trip.
Whole trip is about for that kid.
And the kid was like his 4-year-old and no speaking.
He, he's like going around, let me all this the autistic kids, about 4, 5, 6
year olds, they just run and run and pick up things where he was more like
addicted to picking up cigarette butts.
'cause he, in Mongolia, you can find them so easily nowadays a bit different.
But, you know, by the time it was, and he was like picking up the secret
butts and if there is know alcohol around, he's quite, you know, into it.
And the bo you know, shop the supermarkets, he goes up there
and, you know, pointing to whiskeys and things like that.
So I thought, Hmm.
A very old spirit.
So he did, he didn't talk in the he could, you know, turn back if we call his name.
And then we, we were riding, we rode horses up to her mountains and
exactly the same route we have taken.
Yeah.
And we, we have seen ghost shaman and he did some ceremony and then we went down
and the mom still, you know, species, and I said, I told guys it's not happening.
It's not happening.
No words.
So we made, we may just, you know, have to wait a bit.
Every kid is different, you know.
Then there was out driving and driving them.
The whole family is with me.
And when we get to the Moin town you know, there were the same place.
We stayed in Moin Town, as you know, remember this small girl
and there was a big the White House apartment in a house like
restaurants and two, this is in Moron?
Yeah, I remember this.
Yeah.
In Moron Town.
Yes.
Yeah.
When, when I was driving and just into that, the camp then he, he
turned to his mom they were sitting next to and said, mom, I love you.
Wow.
That was shocking.
And wow.
She was in tears like an hour.
And I think that was a very much, one of the very much good moments in my life.
And we both had to stay in the car.
I mean, we all had to stay in the car a little bit and I mean, take it, I
mean to take, I mean, to calm down.
We need to, we need to take, take it a really long time.
So the boy just came out from the car, run, run, run.
Meanwhile, our cook and the, the others were looking after the
bags and things, but still moming the car and those still crying.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: I think there was a, a very big moment.
Yeah.
That's life changing.
I, I've witnessed, so I still, I still remember that.
So since then, yes, if you, if you, if you, that magical moment is like, that
happened to me, but it's, I think this one still sits in my mind so strongly.
So strongly.
Rupert Isaacson: Ghost was such a powerful shaman.
He's now
no
longer with us.
No.
Are there still people up there in that area or other areas of Mongolia?
'cause you are still traveling to all these places.
Are there still some very, very good challenge that you would recommend?
At this point
Tulga Otgonbaatar: there are two, three, yes.
Because this, the shamanism.
Staff is passing all knowledge or spirit to the next one or the student.
Mainly it's relative or father to son, a mother to son.
It's like that.
It's just happening.
Where are the
Rupert Isaacson: areas where you would say, you know, these
handful of really good shams,
Tulga Otgonbaatar: we call it tiger, it's just
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: And the Siberian, the forest area, Siberian Post area.
Exactly.
So, there are two places in East and wet, so both of them has
shamans you know, to work with them.
There's good, there are even, you know, the ghost shaman's sister, he, I mean she,
she has all the knowledge and energy and I like to see, to see her sometimes or we
still in contact in in in a phone calling.
And now this, this social media is so strong.
Mm-hmm.
We send messages through it.
So that was her birthday today.
And I've sent greetings and like that.
So, please send her greeting from
Rupert Isaacson: me too.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Sure, I will.
Yeah, I will definitely.
With I will, I will snapshot this one, please.
Yes.
Whenever we finish it.
So then I'll send it to her.
Look, look, look.
And she still, I mean, she still remembers you, knows you.
'cause when you were there, she was there too.
And assisting because the shaman ceremony of that.
Okay.
So now she took a all the spirits and energy healing from him.
So he le she lives in Ola City, not in the in the mountain anymore.
Okay.
Her kids grown up and he chosen, she chose to leave it here, to live up here.
So, yes, I like Is she practicing her
Rupert Isaacson: healing in, in the city now or up in the tiger?
Tulga Otgonbaatar: It seems it seems she doesn't receive people.
Every single people, she reject rejects people and she likes to do it
both in the mountain and also in the city seems, but she, she would say,
she could say no, she could refuse.
And some of, I mean, some, sometimes I receive requests whether they
want to see very strong Germans not far away from the city.
So I tried to recommend her and were, she refused some of them already.
So that means, but some reasons they're not sure.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, sure.
I mean, I guess, I guess they have to, this is always the, this is always the
risk one takes when one goes to see a shaman and the shaman may say, this
one is not for me, for whatever reason.
But you say that she's living in the city, but she still goes up to the
Yeah.
Cobs school area to be Yes, exactly.
Her people.
Okay.
Yes.
To her
Tulga Otgonbaatar: people.
Summertime mainly.
And yes, the, the east is still, see two of the shamans there.
So one of them got really old even so I respect him and, not
to do, you know, the bigger ceremonies, but smaller ones mm-hmm.
He could handle.
And another person nearby, another family is there.
So very strong.
And I have been working with him so many years originally.
Few of them in that.
And these are also
Rupert Isaacson: reindeer herders?
Tulga Otgonbaatar: One, only one of them is not the others are.
Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So interesting.
And then you were also saying that you were working, you know, a lot in the
west that earlier in this conversation you said that you had, you know,
met chairmans all over Mongolia.
Of course.
Do you feel that there are other places too where you've met
people who are really strong?
Or do you feel it's really just the tiger region?
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Well, it's a very good question.
I think because it's, I would say sometimes I thought the region helps,
you know, to, to become really strong, powerful shamans, but seems not
necessarily northeast northeast Mongolia, we have very strong channels too.
And Kby, there was one was various and I worked with him.
And I could feel the energy and humbleness is really nice, but at
same time, you know, that's, I could feel that it seems up to the, I mean,
the shaman himself, ourself seems whoever received a powerful spirit.
Yeah.
Or powerful the healing or powerful training seems, it just maybe
depends on him or on her that
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
But would you, yeah.
Would you, now, if a family were to contact you again and say, I'm looking
for this, would you, would you contact these different healers in the different
regions and see which one says, yes, I think I can help this person?
Or how would you organize it?
Or would you always take them up to the north, to the reindeer people now?
Mm.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: For my, for me to bringing up, bringing the people
over there I always choose, I always choose the northern place because
it's, I have so much, I mean, I used to, and also I know the people a lot.
And I do take care of them and they like to care of me.
So it's, there is a bond.
And and also the same time, the people themselves, they want to go to the
north to see the reindeer place as well.
Reindeer tribe as well.
Mm-hmm.
At the same time they want to benefit it.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So
Tulga Otgonbaatar: just then I couldn't help it to go to the North
Northern Mongolia a lot and lot.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Even nowadays.
Rupert Isaacson: But if somebody said, I want to go see a shaman in the Gobi,
or I want to see a shaman among the Kazakhs, would you know where to go?
Would you know where to take them?
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes, I would.
The other thing is it seems they don't know the shamans
exist all over the Mongolia.
Interesting.
I think it'd be one of the one of the things they don't, I mean, Mongolia
is, we don't take the people to, up to the west, south of Mongolia.
The only thing, it's the the shamanism is only in the Northern Mongolia.
It's just because of you.
Okay.
It's just because of the book.
Basically.
The horse boy, the movie after that.
So everyone thinks they are strong shamans.
The shamanism is the Northern Mongolia only.
Rupert Isaacson: It's so interesting because I, I certainly never said that
in the book, and I, I think, you know, I was, I was also saying that the
shamans that we saw, you know, on the planes on the step were also very good.
I mean, there is no question that, that ghost was one of the most powerful
healers I have ever encountered in my life, and I've known quite a few.
And obviously the reindeer culture is a very, very special
culture very beautiful culture.
But yes, it's, it's clear that the good healers exist everywhere.
And true.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yeah.
You never mentioned this, only the Western, no.
Northern Mongolia has Germans and you want to go there, but we
did ceremony in Lamber City Yes.
Night s and we, we have seen, we met different feelings on the way Yeah.
Dely, I remember all, all that.
But yes, I think the people got the impression from Yeah, the
boot and also the documentary.
Yeah.
Northern Mongolia has a shamans,
Rupert Isaacson: yes.
Mm-hmm.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Okay.
Let's go there.
So this is, this is, I think it's the, I don't think we could change that.
Rupert Isaacson: No.
And, and to be fair that the reindeer people do have an extremely,
extremely effective system of healing.
But yes, just for anyone who's watching this or listening to this in Mongolia,
if you're looking for healing, you can find it in every region.
Yeah.
And it's more about looking for the right healer for your question, for
your dilemma, rather than saying, I must do exactly what Rupert Isaacson did.
Um mm-hmm.
You know, where, 'cause I often, for example, after we went to Sea
Ghost and he said, Rupert, you must do these three more journeys.
Obviously when I went to Africa, to the Bushman, I knew exactly where
to go and who to go to because I knew those people personally.
But when I went to Australia and to the Navajo Reservation, I had no idea.
So I had to ask people, talk to people exactly how I started with Mongolia.
And little by little, a picture comes together where a certain number of people
say, go to this person, go to this place.
And yeah, a aer Okay, now this is the fifth person who's told me this.
What am I feeling in my gut?
Okay, I'm feeling that I need to follow this path.
So then I found my way to these two very good healers, one in the
rainforest area of Australia and one in the Navajo reservation.
And they were also incredibly effective with Rowan.
But I, I, I found out about them through a series of researchers, just like,
that's how I found Ghost was through a series of researchers that equally they
could have taken me in another direction.
Yeah.
And I do think it's good for people to, to know this, to, to not just say,
mm-hmm.
There's only one way.
No, there isn't there.
And the other thing too is that when I came out to Mongolia, by the
time I got there, although I was really hopeful and obviously wanting
Rowan to move past his suffering.
Mm-hmm.
I did not want his autism to go away.
I was comfortable and happy with his autism.
And again, this, this difference between healing and cure, it's, it's such a,
an important thing.
I was not expecting any kind of immediate result.
At all.
And in fact, I was very ready for nothing to happen.
And I asked myself, well, what am I gonna do?
What am I gonna say?
What am I gonna think?
What am I gonna feel if I come back from Mongolia and there's no change at all?
And I thought, well, sure.
But then at least I went and had, or we as a family went and had this incredible
adventure because of the autism.
Instead of saying, well, we can't go to somewhere like Mongolia because of the
autism and say, no, it's the autism that's making us go to this incredible place
to meet these incredible people, to have this incredible adventure that perhaps we
would never have done except for autism.
Therefore, autism is giving us this great gift.
Of course, what did happen was the healings that are in the book, and yes,
there was this immediate result with Tommo in the first healing and then a
pretty much immediate result after Ghost.
And I, I worried about that after I published the books.
I thought, oh shit, people are gonna, people are gonna want that.
But at the same time, you have to tell your experience.
So it's very interesting to hear you tell that story.
About the lady from New York saying It's not happening.
It's not happening.
And then of course it happened.
But if there's one thing I think which nature teaches one nature
in the mind, it's patience.
And you know where we started this conversation when I asked you, well,
why are the Mongolian people so kind?
Why are they so patient?
Where is this forgiveness?
Okay, there's the Buddhist aspect, but you also talked about nature.
You said, we have these huge extremes of temperature.
You have to wait for conditions to be right.
There is no choice.
It's bigger than you.
And I do feel that probably everybody that you've taken
on these healing journeys has probably come back with something
of that quality in them.
And I, I do feel that that's a gift that Mongolia gives, is this gift of just
learning how to cool out a little bit.
And if you think about those long, long, long hours and days and days
that we spent together just traveling through to get to these places,
those each step across the step each.
Turn of the wheel, each placement of the horse's hooves
was its own beautiful moment.
I remember so many moments that were just traveling with all of us together
that were so beautiful that were never talked about in the book, because you only
have a certain amount of pages that you, you know, one has to get to the action.
Do, do you, I, I guess this is a real gift that you can give people
in, in the work that you do.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Just remembering, you know, how it seems and remembering the
whole trip, you know, the how we wear the car, you, you described, you know, the
leopard skin car and the pink curtain, and there's a, I think people still talk
about this, you know, now they, that Russian minivan, a minivan is just a
Rupert Isaacson: huge, the pimp mobile.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: They want to ride that car when they come to Mongolia.
It is just in also some people particularly choose
that van to ride, to drive.
It's so interesting, so interesting.
It's always, you know, once when you.
Bring up the Rowan and the, when you talk about the Bo Rowan and Rowan and
even in Mongolia, I mean, there's a lots of people in Mongolia when they
see me and they remembers this horse, the horse boy movie and the story, and
they always ask, they took how's row.
So I wanted, I want to ask you as you've mentioned it before, so I
want to ask the, the stem question.
How is Row doing?
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
Well, if, if we were doing this he's actually with my parents right now in
London, and I'm talking to you from Spain.
And he will be joining me from London in the day after tomorrow.
And so what's Rowan's life now?
Ronan is going to be 24 in a couple of weeks.
He's huge, much bigger than me.
Mm-hmm.
He yes.
Can he live independently?
Yes, he does.
He in fact, he even sold his house last year to put the money into a trust.
He has two jobs and perhaps a third one starting.
He works at a state park doing, helping with conservation work in Texas.
He also.
Helps to make lunches for low income children after school,
sometimes at a food bank.
And he helps me on trainings with Movement Method and Horse Boy Method, where he
explains what it is to be autistic to parents who are going through this.
And, and he advises them on approaches to take with their children's
education and upbringing and therapies.
And I think he is shortly going to be taking a volunteer job at the San
Antonio Zoo, which is a place he's been going to since he was a little boy.
And he loves very much as a guide for visitors explaining I think
a little bit from a autistic point of view the experience.
And he divides his time between Texas, where in Austin with his, his mom, but
he lives actually most of the week by himself and then also Europe with me.
He goes back and forth.
He travels independently.
He take, he goes and stays in the youth hostels with a backpack
if he wants to go see something or takes the train or whatever.
He still rides when he's with me.
I have a horse for him and he still loves nature as deeply as he ever did,
and he's highly articulate and people can actually find interviews with him
on YouTube if they go on our channel.
And I think we get so often these questions that when he's here, I have
it sort of on the agenda when he's here.
, We're going to do a bunch of filming together where he's gonna talk to camera
and tell people a little bit about what his life is like now, because
obviously so many people want to know.
He always asks about you, he always asks about to.
And yeah, he's been very successful.
And at the same time, he is totally autistic.
At the same time, he knows that he is vulnerable.
He knows that he needs help navigating the world.
He knows that he has to be careful with what people tell him and what he
can believe and what he can't believe.
But because he knows this about himself, he can also come to me or
to his mother or to other people who he trusts and say, okay, how
should I interpret this situation?
And, but you know, he road trips across big chunks of America by himself and
travels around Europe by himself.
And it's, it's, it's absolutely incredible.
And he still has this absolute quality of sweetness of innocence that he always had.
He is,
like many people who are classically autistic, extremely
kind, his ego is very quiet.
And he's, he's, he's a sweet and loving young man.
But what I'm hoping, and this is, we talked about this before we
hit record in a year and a half.
It's going to be the 20 year anniversary of the horse.
Boy, I think we have to try to come back to Mongolia.
I think you and I should talk about this and we should figure out, we
should go again as a fam, the two families, two fathers, two sons.
So maybe talk to Tomo about this and see what Tomo thinks, because now,
now our children are our bosses.
So, I'm sure obviously Tomo will have his own ideas and see,
see what it is we should do.
And if, if we contact ghost sister and see, let's ask her and say,
you know, what do you think?
And then between us.
You know, come up with what it is we should do, where it is we should go.
Is it the same place?
Is it, does it look different?
I'm open.
I think, I think we should absolutely consult with ghost's sister, see
what shes, the spirit world is saying and take it from there.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Wow.
Wow.
What a information.
Yes.
I, I really, I am really happy with making it, you know, the 20th Ann anniversary.
Soon it's coming, you know, 20, 27, I think.
So by the time the, the boys were riding with the same saddles the,
the Rowan was riding with you and the Tom was riding with me.
I don't think, think we could do that again.
No.
That cannot fit.
No, no.
Maybe we take
Rupert Isaacson: camels.
Then we can each take one hump.
Yeah.
Oh,
Tulga Otgonbaatar: that is an idea.
Yes.
I would be very open.
We could, you know, plan it, organize it.
Yeah.
We should try.
We have to try it to, to make it to a reunion.
Yeah.
For the day.
Anniversary.
Yes.
Yeah, they, I would be very happy.
And you mentioned at the Rowan is so sweet and his ego is, there's no ego
and the kind so he's got, it's when you, when we see the autism, things
are, are work things work differently.
Yes.
And they're quite protective, isolated.
Is it the Rowan is because of his a bit of celebrity?
Or why is that?
It's interesting.
It's such a good
Rupert Isaacson: question.
Why is it, you know,
I guess there are many different kinds of autism and so I'm talking
about a very specific personality type, which is Rowan, but it's a
personality type that I encounter often.
So there are, there are some forms of autism where the ego is
quite big, but with Rowan's type of autism, no, it's very quiet.
It's as if for me to have an ego like Rowan's, a quiet ego like
that, I would need 30, 40 years of spiritual practice, you know, and
even then it would be very difficult.
He is born like this well, I dunno if you remember, but in the documentary.
One of the people we spoke to, there was a man called Richard Grinker,
who is an ethno anthropologist, and he talks about shamanism healers in
indigenous communities, often having these neuropsychiatric conditions.
Yeah, they could be epileptic, they could be autistic, they could be have
bipolar, they could be many things and schizophrenic, but it gives them
some sort of emotional sensitivity that they are then able to heal.
And I think Rowan is a little bit like this.
He, it, it, it's very healing to be around him.
He's one of these people who, if he walks into the room, it
makes people behave better.
So, and he's not the only one.
I I know many people like this.
Is it genetic?
Is it spiritual?
Can you separate spirituality from genetics?
No, because spirituality and humans humans are genetics.
So these things are obviously related.
My feeling is that.
People like Rowan are there in human society to help the rest
of us, and they're born this way.
Why are they born this way?
I don't know.
Mm-hmm.
That is one of the great mysteries.
But we are lucky that they are, because as you said, you know, there
are many people who want to be healers or want to be shamans, but my feeling
is nobody in their right mind would really want to be a shaman or want to
be a healer because it's hard work.
I mean, you can't, you're not, you know, it's, it's, it's, you're
not gonna get rich doing that.
And it's, it's exhausting work and very hard work and so on.
So it's something that either you are or you aren't.
But if you are, it's very, very clear.
And there are some people now, if you're born into a culture like the
reindeer people, let's say Rowan had been born into that culture,
probably he would be a shaman, probably he would be a working shaman.
He would be, he would've been apprentice to somebody like Ghost quite early, and we
would be going to see him in our culture.
He exists, I feel almost in the same type of role that he is
almost professionally himself.
Mm-hmm.
As a
way of bringing healing to other people and understanding,
you talked about patience and forgiveness, all of these things.
So clearly in human culture, we need this population of people to
stop us from becoming genis, kahan and turn us into ghost, hopefully.
Or something in between.
Something in between Genghis, Kahan and ghosts enough to make sure the
Russians and the Chinese don't take all of your mineral resources and
flatten the whole country and enough ghosts to be patient and forgive.
And, you know, we are always trying to find that middle way, aren't we?
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Yeah.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Well, well, I wanted to ask, I I, I always
wanted to ask one thing.
You remember when we were in the GOs plays and, inside Tiping.
Yes.
You, you, we received the permission, I mean, to, to do the filming
Rupert Isaacson: in the
Tulga Otgonbaatar: ceremony and remember the the lights went off.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: What happens there?
What happens there?
Rupert Isaacson: Ah, why did the lights go off in the filming?
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Exactly.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Is it because of they, I mean they, I saw them charging.
Is it They didn't charge in enough?
Rupert Isaacson: No.
They charged and if you remember the all the electronic equipment, it failed during
the ceremony and then it came on again.
Yeah.
Boom.
Yeah.
When the ceremony was over.
Why?
Okay.
I've seen this happen many times.
I've seen this happen in Africa and the Kalahari filming or recording
at healings and the healer that will almost always say, yeah, sure,
you can try to record it, but don't be angry if your equipment fails.
Because I guess there is such a huge amount of spiritual activity
and spiritual activity must to some degree, have some electrical
quality because life is electricity.
You know, we all use electricity every day.
We are using it right now to talk to each other.
Yeah.
But neither you nor I.
Nor even a physicist can tell us, mm-hmm what is electricity?
We only know that it exists and we know we can harness it,
but we don't know what it is.
But we know that the whole universe runs on it more or less, and our bodies do,
and our nervous system does and so on.
So I guess when you are, and this is, I'm just guessing, but it, I think
it's an educated guess, is that when a ceremony like this is happening, the
level of electrical magnetic energy is so strong that it can short circuit
temporarily electronic equipment.
And I also think there's a mischievous, humorous aspect to it
because, you know, the longer I'm alive, the more I am convinced.
I think that we live in a conscious universe that consciousness is
not a product of the human brain.
That the human brain is a product of consciousness, and that there
is a wider field of consciousness.
Some people could call it God, some people could call it love, but we know that
so much happens that is outside of our ability to explain, including
normal things like electricity.
So.
Why would there not sometimes also be a slightly mischievous or humorous element
to this, where the spiritual energy that comes with healing also has a little
bit of a sense of humor and, you know, shuts your equipment down at that moment.
Just, just for fun in a way.
You know, I, I, that's what I feel is sort of going on.
Yeah.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: This is one of my behind the scene stories.
I have told quite a few people around me about it and I've
never told you before, so, okay.
I think when, that was a evening when we first met him, and you told him some
stories about the African shamans and him the Rowan and then the GOs shout,
he listened patiently and completely.
Then we asked him permission to do the ceremony for him.
And after a little while, you know, he was explaining to me, yes I felt something
hard was coming to me and like that.
And, then Michael, now he, who was that?
And the stomach running and now it was like quite of, you know, intense in
he had to up and when, when we were before riding, I mean, I remember this,
Rupert Isaacson: when, when, when Michael got that case of terrible stomach upset.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes, exactly.
Before
Rupert Isaacson: we rode up the mountain to Sea Ghost.
Yes.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: What was his name?
Sorry, but, but now it's just, I've forgotten some names.
And working with the sounds and Justin,
Rupert Isaacson: Justin was the guy working with the Oh yeah, Justin,
Tulga Otgonbaatar: he saw a white goat in the mountain.
He saw the white IEX
Rupert Isaacson: on the mountain.
That's right.
Yes,
Tulga Otgonbaatar: yes.
Iex.
Exactly.
So, and having said that I, I told the August chairman about it, and
he said nothing, and he smiled.
And then I asked, you know, the, we wanted to film this if we want
if you, if you agree with that.
And he said, yeah, yeah.
I wasn't quite surprised because of it's mainly first they would say no.
There's so many reasons they could say no.
And secondly, I was, maybe he would, I was like waiting, expecting he
would ask for more money or something.
He, no.
Yeah.
And only one thing only one thing he said afterwards.
And then to me it was a gamble to tell you or not to tell you.
So he said, Hey, toga.
During the ceremony there might be the cameras, would, one of
the cameras might be broken.
What?
Broken?
Yeah, completely.
I was like, what?
Because it's, it's one of my, the first few man ceremonies and I didn't know
him so much, and whether he was, you know, threatening me or not was kind
of, you know, the feeling I had and I, I kind of bathed to tell you or not, if,
you know, the cameras would not break.
So what would happen?
So I, I, I, I, I had, you know, that is thinking a lot.
A lot.
And decided not to tell you.
Rupert Isaacson: Because you are saying that he warned you before
the ceremony that this might happen.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes, he,
Rupert Isaacson: oh yeah.
But I was ready for it.
I, you know, I was so not surprised because I had been
in this situation before.
Yeah,
Tulga Otgonbaatar: exactly.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
Tulga Otgonbaatar: exactly.
So, 'cause you know, you know, very first few experiences and I never had,
I never seen, you know, this kind of failure or, you know, things would happen.
So I didn't believe it.
I mean, for myself I didn't really believe it.
So, I was really, you know, not sure to tell you.
So now, oh yeah, this is one of my behind the scenes story.
It's, it's, so then it happens, then the light went off.
So after the ceremony, he, he, he came up to me and said, Hey,
toga did not tell you face.
So the cameras were expensive.
I only played with the lights.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
Tulga Otgonbaatar: they were, they were bothering me.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
That's funny.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes.
I think he was hilarious.
And also he likes to joke.
Absolute.
So, yes.
Then, you know, I, I didn't tell you from the first place.
So then I, after that, and if I tell you this, you wouldn't believe it.
So by the time I thought, this is why my purchase, so then.
Things went on and on and so much of that, so I completely
forgotten by the time when you left.
I, I, I asked a few other shamans about it and I told the story and then I
realized, oh yes, this thing happened.
This thing happened.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: And another story maybe just a little bit funny or
maybe it related with the the thing.
So we do remember that we, oh yes.
We bought a very good bottle of vodka from only for him.
And then because of you know, we were riding horses and all of a sudden
Michael's the not feeding ha healthy.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Then
Tulga Otgonbaatar: that evening we had a nice fire going, some
fire going near the river.
It was beautiful.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: So we start drinking.
Then all of a sudden we finished that one.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: And then I had to send one of our horse guides
to get another one, but he came back with very cheap local one
Rupert Isaacson: Uhhuh,
Tulga Otgonbaatar: and I thought, oh, it's just better than nothing.
And I came up and.
Since you left.
And I, I gave it to him
and he looked at me and 'cause his eyes were, I mean, not, and not big eyes.
And but he could tell, he could see me so deep.
And then he received it.
He opened it and he pulled it to the glass about the size and 'cause
it just, half of them is gone.
No, before that he he showed me, he turned around in the, he was digging and digging
and he, he brought up a great goose.
A friend of mine gave it to me.
Then he, one of the expensive cognac and whiskeys one after another,
a few, like five, six in a row.
So my little vodka was sitting quite about right.
The, ah,
but if he put them back and, and he pulled the vodka and he
gave it to me and I drank it.
And now I thought I, I was going go to drink it.
He said, you go out and toss it to the northwest.
And I, I went out and toss it.
And then the, in, in that, like, they were like seven or eight.
Man was sitting, having a conversation going in a very, you know, quietly,
but then I could hear that the fire crackling in the stove.
So he then I went, went in and gave it to him.
Get the bottle?
No, the bloodstream in the airport.
It looks small.
And we went 'cause it's Mongolian thing and it has to go around and
everyone has to drink some and 'cause seven hour eight people.
I thought only few, the small bits would come to me and I, yes it did.
And I drug it and he carried on and it came to me like second time, third time.
I was like, what?
Because it's just a small, tiny little bit.
I mean, half, less than a half is in the bottle and this very small amounts
should be, 'cause it's eight people should have been gone, like, before me.
So then, no, it just went three times around then I was quite drunk.
I was really, we didn't drink after that.
So I was quite drunk.
I was like, couldn't, you know, go straight.
And there was, you know, some streams.
I, I dipped myself, my feet in, in there a few times.
And the next day he came next morning, he, he visited us with
hunger, their sister and her son.
And how you, how, how are you feeling this morning?
He smiled and I, I never paid at attention after I told one of the shas so many years
after, like 10, 15 years later, I told this story to one of my German friends.
And he said, Hmm, so he tasted you what?
So did I pass?
Have I, have I passed or not?
So then he said he answered, so what happens afterwards?
So we did our ceremony.
So there you go.
So this was, he tested me before you that I never, I never had this, I never had
a clue even so that was so interesting.
That
Rupert Isaacson: was the night before we did the ceremonies.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Exactly.
Night before.
Yes.
Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, yeah.
Just go back to when the, the, the, the, the, the white IEX on
the mountain when you asked him.
Okay.
Yes.
Did he, did he, what did he say to you again?
'cause I slightly missed that.
You, you asked him, was that you?
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes.
'cause I was marching.
It was him then.
He he said nothing.
Yeah, he smiled and he said, oh yes, the heart was coming and I felt it.
So that was it.
So I said you have this happened and that happens.
The white, white goat, the iex, eh, and he smiled.
That's it.
Yes.
He never mentioned anything else.
I,
Rupert Isaacson: I remember what he said to me when I asked him.
'cause I had to ask him.
He said, he looked at me and he just said, anything can happen on that mountain,
you know?
And thi this quality of mischief.
Yes.
Every really good healer I've ever known has done exactly this.
They always test you.
They, but the testing is done kindly.
It's not done meanly or maliciously like I said, you know?
Yeah, well, like you just said, you know, testing you with that vodka
that magically the vodka just doesn't go down and doesn't go down, and
then suddenly there you are drunk.
It's still a kind way of testing.
Mm-hmm.
It's not.
Mean, it's not malicious, you're not being heard.
No.
You're just being
Yeah.
Investigated to see how serious are you about your desire for this
healing, and are you willing to
mm-hmm.
Put your energy on
the line as well?
Yeah.
Or are you just coming in to say, I want to get something from you?
It, that it has to be a two-way street.
I, when I was in Africa, this was long before coming to Mongolia
and we were doing ceremonies for the return of the land, for the
Bushman, and they were successful.
The, they got the land back.
They said it'll be a year to the day after this ceremony.
They were wrong.
By one day, it was one year, and one day afterwards, they signed
the largest land claim in African history, so it appeared to work.
However, the ceremony itself, I, I knew this healer very well, Besa, he got
drunk and instead of it being like a prop, you know, a really serious healing
that could last all night, you know, that dancing and praying, it lasted like
20 minutes.
And that was it.
And we had traveled a crazy distance and I'd brought this
other Bushman Heer to come.
And afterwards I asked the leader of the South African Bushman, who
had been the one who had asked me to put this healing together.
This was really surprising.
I wasn't expecting him to just get drunk and treat it so casually like this.
Do you think it worked?
And Rupert said, oh yeah, David, the, the leader of the South African bush was said,
oh yeah, Rupert, you need to understand.
He was showing me myself.
And I said, what do you mean?
He said, well, he was showing me the weaknesses that I have to get through.
I said, what do you mean?
He said, Rupert, I'm an alcoholic.
This is what Dava, the Bushman said.
He said, what the, what Besa was showing me.
He gave me a mirror and said, if you continue like this, you will not make,
no, you will not get the land clear.
You're gonna have to get over this at least for the next year
to see this process through.
And that's what this healing was all about, Rupert.
And I said, oh, okay.
And he said, yeah, no, this is very powerful.
And he said that.
And then he said, yes, a a year from today I'm going to sit down with the president
of South Africa and sign the land claim, which was by no means a certainty.
Hmm.
Well, like I said, he was off by one day.
So this, this process of testing and mischief and humor, it so much seems to be
a part of how the natural world operates.
And you know, what is shamanism, but the natural world, you know?
Yeah.
People talk, say it's supernatural.
Well, it might be, but it's still natural.
If it's supernatural, it's still natural.
It's just a bigger version, a version that we don't understand.
But it's the same, it's the same forces, it's the same processes at work.
And I think, you know, people like you and I were so lucky
to have had these experiences.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Very, very, yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Two city boys.
You know, I was born in London.
You are, you're born in the city in ub, you know, and yet there we are
out on these mountains experience.
Exactly.
Incredible stuff.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Well, yes.
Since you, you and your family came to Mongolia and quite a few families really
wanted to do that very same journey.
Very same people, very same Germans and some, some, I mean, two, three
families never contact me back, but, most of them, we were in contact
and some of them still in contact.
And when we are sharing what we are doing, how is it doing?
Yeah.
And that, and one of the families from Chicago and there was a
16-year-old boy and he was growing much taller 'cause of his father was
really tall and sisters were taller.
And he was, he was growing much tall.
And also because of like his fitness, he was growing up as
well, his growing bigger as well.
And there was a big worry about one, when, when he's in it looked quite violent
and yes, it seems they were, you know, trying to do anything to stop his growth.
Seems like that.
Like that.
Okay.
And after Mongolia, well, we did, you know, quite a few, quite a lot of, you
know, days of horse riding and walking in the big step in the nature seems,
you know, things were okay with him.
And this is 16-year-old.
He's quite, you know,
Rupert Isaacson: in
Tulga Otgonbaatar: mature himself, but at the same time he's still very dependent
on the family, sisters, mother and father.
And they want it.
You know, they want him very independent, but you know, even with walking, he wants
to touch somebody or hold somebody Yeah.
To, to walk.
This is quite normal for autism.
So, but, you know, they want him, they wanted to him very independent by himself.
But, you know, after Mongolia, he joined his college basketball team, and they
traveled, I think I, I, I don't know whether he played in the, in the team,
but they won one of the tournaments and he, he was one of the team members.
And after the school he went to one of the farms nearby and he lived their, his own.
And he was taking care of animals.
And and they were talking about, you know, reunion in some,
somewhere, somewhere in, somewhere in the city, in the United States.
Maybe, maybe after, after, you know, our reunion, they might
come back to Mongo as well.
I, who knows, maybe.
And it's like that, you know, it's inspire and inspired so many families
and still many parents I would say and
give them hope and, it worked.
Some of them, it worked for this for some of them.
And I really enjoy to see that and some changes.
And it seems, you know, as you know, life changing, isn't it?
Rupert Isaacson: It is life changing.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: I really love, you know, that's things know, especially
after, you know, Mongolia, how we going?
And now I'm always curious about it.
I'm always curious about that.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I guess we have to do the second, the second journey.
Yeah.
All right.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Exactly.
Exactly.
I would be very happy to see it.
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
Well, let's,
Tulga Otgonbaatar: yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: let's talk about that.
I think, I think the obvious thing is that if you talk to ghost's sister and Yeah.
Ask her advice
mm-hmm.
From
you.
From me.
Yeah.
What does she think we should do here?
Yeah.
And she will probably go and ask the spirits what they think.
Yeah.
And then.
I guess she'll come back with an answer and that's probably what we'll do.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes, exactly.
I'll, yes, I'll talk to her and I'll send you a gratitude and
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Hello to her and we'll see.
Maybe who knows things
Rupert Isaacson: okay.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Things work.
Things might work.
Who knows?
Yeah.
All right.
I'll be happy with that.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so listeners, viewers I guess stay tuned.
Mm-hmm.
And we'll tell you Yeah.
Maybe the next time you see Tulga Otgonbaatar and I together will be
traveling once again with our sons.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Once again.
This is, this is so cool.
Yeah.
This is so very nice.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, thank you so much Tulga Otgonbaatar, for taking the time.
I guess we should leave it here then and say watch this space.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Alright.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Definitely, definitely.
It's so nice and pleasure to see you again in talking talking
about this incredible journey.
So excited, you know, wait to see you again.
And you and Robin again.
Earlier to Tomo to was here and now he left.
And he has a son, three old, oh.
Crazy.
He so taller than me.
He is, yes, he is 25.
And yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, maybe
Tulga Otgonbaatar: to, could be
Rupert Isaacson: his son.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Could do.
Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: That would be interesting.
That would be interesting.
Yeah.
That
Tulga Otgonbaatar: could be because he would be like five ish years.
Yeah.
It would be so interesting.
So interesting.
And yes.
It again, once again, this the, the horse Boy story has inspired so many
families, not even, you know, outside of Mongolia, inside of Mongolia too.
So much of, you know, change so much of knowledge in know in Mongolia.
Mm-hmm.
The people were in spite of lots, a lot and lots.
So, wow.
I'm so proud and glad being a part of this story and so humble too.
Well again, thank you.
Rupert Isaacson: All right, my friend.
Well, thank you.
From the heart.
Yeah.
I will be in touch.
We will make it happen.
Yeah.
Alright.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Alright.
Yes.
It's been so, wow.
We started only five east and now it's, wow.
Three hours already.
So yeah,
so, so, so many stories can share.
I mean, there are a lot of stories still have it, you know, behind the scenes.
Behind the scenes stories.
Well, maybe
Rupert Isaacson: we do another, maybe we do another podcast with
just behind the scenes stories.
Yeah, let's do it.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Cool.
Yes.
That would be amazing.
Rupert Isaacson: I, I should probably give you on another call a sort of an update
of exactly how this work has developed.
But yeah, it's alright.
Yeah, yeah.
I, I it from that, from that mountain or that first day outside Lumata.
Now I think we, it's in the hundreds of thousands of, of families that have.
Being helped one way or another, but I don't take personal credit for that.
I honestly do think that the credit lies with Ghoster and the other shamans.
So they were the ones who kicked this off.
So please do tell his sister how grateful I am.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes, I will.
I will
Rupert Isaacson: friends be in touch and keep talking.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Yes, keep talking.
All right.
Alright, Michael.
Nice.
Alright.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Okay.
Tulga Otgonbaatar: Bye-bye.
Rupert Isaacson: Bye-bye.
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