1 00:00:00,210 --> 00:00:02,670 Welcome back to the episode of the Startup Therapy Podcast. 2 00:00:02,670 --> 00:00:04,380 This is Ryan Rutan, joined as always by my 3 00:00:04,380 --> 00:00:07,110 friend, the founder, and CEO of startups.com. 4 00:00:07,110 --> 00:00:11,370 Will Schroeder will, we're in the startup space. 5 00:00:11,370 --> 00:00:14,160 We are in the business of bigger, right? 6 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:19,020 But at what point is bigger still better? 7 00:00:19,020 --> 00:00:21,870 And what if getting bigger just makes us a like a. 8 00:00:22,260 --> 00:00:23,190 Worse company. 9 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:25,320 Isn't that funny how heretical that is Like 10 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:26,100 in the startup world? 11 00:00:26,310 --> 00:00:26,370 Yeah. 12 00:00:26,370 --> 00:00:28,170 Like you're like, we wanna be as big as possible. 13 00:00:28,170 --> 00:00:28,410 Yeah. 14 00:00:28,410 --> 00:00:29,700 But will you be a shitty company? 15 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:30,330 Probably. 16 00:00:30,330 --> 00:00:31,530 Yeah, probably. 17 00:00:31,590 --> 00:00:33,450 But we'll be a really big shitty company. 18 00:00:33,510 --> 00:00:34,080 Yes. 19 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:36,210 And that just like, wait, hold, hold on. 20 00:00:36,210 --> 00:00:36,450 Wait. 21 00:00:36,480 --> 00:00:38,850 Like you just said, you're gonna be a more terrible company. 22 00:00:38,940 --> 00:00:39,210 Yeah. 23 00:00:39,210 --> 00:00:41,100 But it'll be a bigger, more terrible company. 24 00:00:41,130 --> 00:00:42,510 Really big, terrible company. 25 00:00:43,860 --> 00:00:46,200 And I think of how many companies out there 26 00:00:46,500 --> 00:00:47,430 have gotten bigger. 27 00:00:47,970 --> 00:00:48,960 And they just suck now. 28 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:51,120 And I, and I always think like, okay, let's, let's, let's use 29 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:54,540 like more current examples like Google and I have a tremendous 30 00:00:54,540 --> 00:00:55,380 amount of respect for Google. 31 00:00:55,770 --> 00:00:59,220 Imagine who Google was as like a concentration of talent. 32 00:00:59,910 --> 00:01:00,060 Yeah. 33 00:01:00,060 --> 00:01:00,720 In their heyday. 34 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:00,870 Right? 35 00:01:01,470 --> 00:01:01,980 Smartest 36 00:01:01,980 --> 00:01:02,640 people in the world. 37 00:01:02,790 --> 00:01:03,090 Right. 38 00:01:03,390 --> 00:01:05,400 Versus who they are actually here, here's another good one. 39 00:01:05,430 --> 00:01:07,710 This is this kind of a, a curve ball, PayPal. 40 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:12,900 PayPal when it had Elon Musk, Reed Hoffman, uh, Peter 41 00:01:12,900 --> 00:01:16,679 Thiel, like, I mean the, the, the list of people on, 42 00:01:16,679 --> 00:01:19,800 I mean, like even their B players ran public companies 43 00:01:19,860 --> 00:01:21,750 or started public companies like Yelp and stuff like that. 44 00:01:21,990 --> 00:01:23,850 It was the startup version of Oceans 11. 45 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:24,270 Yeah. 46 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:24,570 Right. 47 00:01:24,570 --> 00:01:25,259 That's a great way to put it. 48 00:01:25,259 --> 00:01:26,039 All the stars were in it. 49 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:26,400 Yep. 50 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:28,530 Everyone you wanted was in that was in, that was in that show. 51 00:01:28,860 --> 00:01:29,039 Yep. 52 00:01:29,075 --> 00:01:31,560 And, and think about PayPal now, and maybe you got bought 53 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:33,720 by eBay and then whatever, but like, do I have to? 54 00:01:33,780 --> 00:01:33,900 Yeah. 55 00:01:34,740 --> 00:01:35,940 Oh, by the way, uh, fun fact. 56 00:01:35,940 --> 00:01:36,360 Fun fact. 57 00:01:36,690 --> 00:01:37,020 The. 58 00:01:37,365 --> 00:01:41,205 CFO of PayPal at the time was 27 years old. 59 00:01:41,205 --> 00:01:42,164 I mean, they were all super young. 60 00:01:42,705 --> 00:01:43,785 Uhhuh, who was, uh, Ruloff? 61 00:01:43,785 --> 00:01:46,245 Botta, the managing partner of Sequoia. 62 00:01:47,054 --> 00:01:49,755 I mean, dude, their CFO was the managing partner. 63 00:01:50,925 --> 00:01:51,255 Yeah. 64 00:01:52,605 --> 00:01:53,625 Come on, man. 65 00:01:53,625 --> 00:01:53,955 Right? 66 00:01:54,134 --> 00:01:54,375 Yeah. 67 00:01:54,375 --> 00:01:55,065 And like, feels, 68 00:01:55,065 --> 00:01:58,485 feels slightly stacked as PayPal grew and became 69 00:01:58,485 --> 00:02:00,105 whatever behemoth it is today. 70 00:02:00,435 --> 00:02:03,255 Is it a better company than it was back then, which is 71 00:02:03,255 --> 00:02:07,545 where our story begins as we scale, as we add stuff. 72 00:02:07,965 --> 00:02:10,574 Is it making us a better company? 73 00:02:10,815 --> 00:02:13,125 I'm gonna argue, and I, I think you're in the same boat 74 00:02:13,454 --> 00:02:14,685 that it usually does not. 75 00:02:14,745 --> 00:02:15,915 And yet, ironically. 76 00:02:16,500 --> 00:02:20,519 For as much as we focus on growth, we have almost no 77 00:02:20,519 --> 00:02:22,890 focus whatsoever on quality. 78 00:02:23,459 --> 00:02:25,170 Like, are we a better company? 79 00:02:25,260 --> 00:02:25,920 Yeah, we're bigger. 80 00:02:25,920 --> 00:02:26,825 No, no, no. 81 00:02:26,850 --> 00:02:27,030 We're 82 00:02:27,030 --> 00:02:27,359 bigger. 83 00:02:27,359 --> 00:02:28,890 We're way shittier than, right. 84 00:02:28,950 --> 00:02:30,480 More money, more people, more problems. 85 00:02:30,690 --> 00:02:31,739 Wait, did I say the last part? 86 00:02:31,739 --> 00:02:31,980 Yeah. 87 00:02:32,190 --> 00:02:32,609 Right, right. 88 00:02:32,609 --> 00:02:32,700 Yeah. 89 00:02:32,700 --> 00:02:37,679 Man, I always think of scale is the, is the distortion knob on 90 00:02:37,679 --> 00:02:38,725 the amp that is your startup. 91 00:02:39,810 --> 00:02:44,760 Little bit rocks too much and it just, it gets way outta control. 92 00:02:45,095 --> 00:02:46,505 You, you crank analogy too far. 93 00:02:46,505 --> 00:02:46,825 Analogy. 94 00:02:46,830 --> 00:02:48,120 And you just end up with a bunch of noise. 95 00:02:48,125 --> 00:02:48,660 Right, right, right. 96 00:02:48,660 --> 00:02:52,830 And, and the quality in, in the tune has, has gone and 97 00:02:52,830 --> 00:02:54,780 you're just overrun with distortion at that point. 98 00:02:54,780 --> 00:02:57,300 And I think that it really does feel that way. 99 00:02:57,300 --> 00:03:01,590 So unless your spinal tap, you should not turn that shit to 11. 100 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:02,220 Okay. 101 00:03:02,220 --> 00:03:03,090 You should not do that. 102 00:03:03,270 --> 00:03:04,740 Think of how old that reference is now. 103 00:03:05,355 --> 00:03:06,375 Do you, you know, they're bringing it 104 00:03:06,375 --> 00:03:06,735 back. 105 00:03:06,735 --> 00:03:07,665 Do you know they're doing a new one? 106 00:03:07,695 --> 00:03:08,205 Of course, they're, 107 00:03:08,235 --> 00:03:08,415 yeah. 108 00:03:08,415 --> 00:03:08,595 Yeah. 109 00:03:08,595 --> 00:03:09,975 Well, because we've run outta new content. 110 00:03:10,335 --> 00:03:13,455 So what's interesting to me here is like, let's, let's 111 00:03:13,455 --> 00:03:15,015 start from the premise Sure. 112 00:03:15,015 --> 00:03:18,465 That, okay, as this thing gets bigger, is there a chance that 113 00:03:18,465 --> 00:03:19,635 it's gonna get more shitty? 114 00:03:19,875 --> 00:03:20,235 Okay. 115 00:03:20,565 --> 00:03:24,075 In order to understand how and why that happens, we've gotta 116 00:03:24,075 --> 00:03:27,705 kind of talk about these hidden costs of, of getting bit, right. 117 00:03:27,915 --> 00:03:31,695 And I think when you're early in your career, like as a founder. 118 00:03:32,370 --> 00:03:36,090 You tend to think of these things as goals, right? 119 00:03:36,090 --> 00:03:37,530 Like, we're gonna add more staff. 120 00:03:37,830 --> 00:03:38,640 Sure, we're gonna add more. 121 00:03:38,850 --> 00:03:39,510 More managers. 122 00:03:39,510 --> 00:03:40,440 We're gonna add more product, right? 123 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:41,190 These are all the things we want 124 00:03:41,190 --> 00:03:41,610 to do. 125 00:03:41,970 --> 00:03:42,330 Correct. 126 00:03:42,630 --> 00:03:43,500 You're dying to do. 127 00:03:43,530 --> 00:03:45,690 We're gonna raise more capital, we're gonna have more investors. 128 00:03:45,690 --> 00:03:48,570 We're gonna have so much more, right? 129 00:03:48,870 --> 00:03:51,870 And the whole thought is more cash, more people, 130 00:03:51,900 --> 00:03:54,150 more product, more you know, more, more market share. 131 00:03:54,150 --> 00:03:55,140 Like everything better. 132 00:03:55,530 --> 00:03:59,880 No one ever stops to say, Hey, maybe this will make 133 00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:01,079 things really terrible for us. 134 00:04:01,649 --> 00:04:01,920 Right? 135 00:04:02,505 --> 00:04:02,795 Yeah. 136 00:04:02,799 --> 00:04:03,000 Yeah. 137 00:04:03,570 --> 00:04:05,369 And when it does, everyone's so shocked. 138 00:04:05,459 --> 00:04:06,989 They're like, wait, hold on. 139 00:04:06,989 --> 00:04:09,239 Like, we hired a bunch of people and now our 140 00:04:09,239 --> 00:04:10,899 culture's gone and Right. 141 00:04:10,980 --> 00:04:13,290 We brought in a bunch of investors and now we basically 142 00:04:13,290 --> 00:04:16,140 just report to the board all the time and we built 143 00:04:16,140 --> 00:04:18,120 all these products and now it's a nightmare to, to 144 00:04:18,149 --> 00:04:19,200 maintain all this stuff. 145 00:04:19,409 --> 00:04:20,235 And that's exactly it. 146 00:04:20,820 --> 00:04:24,810 We all of a sudden now have this like big weird beast 147 00:04:24,810 --> 00:04:25,830 that we have to manage. 148 00:04:25,830 --> 00:04:25,890 Yeah. 149 00:04:26,280 --> 00:04:28,859 That's a billion problems we didn't have yesterday and 150 00:04:28,859 --> 00:04:30,150 we work so hard to get them. 151 00:04:30,539 --> 00:04:30,840 Yeah. 152 00:04:30,840 --> 00:04:35,010 Every single layer that we add takes a toll. 153 00:04:35,280 --> 00:04:35,400 Mm-hmm. 154 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:35,849 Right. 155 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:37,109 Decisions slow down. 156 00:04:37,950 --> 00:04:40,230 Context becomes thinner because you don't get that 157 00:04:40,230 --> 00:04:42,870 osmotic effect of just being in the same rooms. 158 00:04:42,870 --> 00:04:45,270 It is what I call, you know, it goes from being the, the lunch 159 00:04:45,270 --> 00:04:46,710 table to the committee decision. 160 00:04:46,950 --> 00:04:47,100 Yep. 161 00:04:47,190 --> 00:04:47,460 Right. 162 00:04:47,460 --> 00:04:48,659 So the context thins down. 163 00:04:48,840 --> 00:04:50,370 Culture diffuses you said that. 164 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:50,670 Right? 165 00:04:50,670 --> 00:04:52,290 But that, that's a, that's a huge one. 166 00:04:52,290 --> 00:04:55,200 And depending on how important culture was, uh, for you 167 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:56,340 and I, it's super important. 168 00:04:56,909 --> 00:05:00,960 That can be the, the death of the startup and not necessarily 169 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,390 in the, in the sense that like, oh, the startup's just gonna 170 00:05:03,390 --> 00:05:05,100 be done now because of this. 171 00:05:05,805 --> 00:05:08,025 It can be the, the death rattle for the founder. 172 00:05:08,025 --> 00:05:10,724 At least I remember this happening in, in my agency. 173 00:05:10,724 --> 00:05:12,585 This goes back to, you know, ancient history now, but 174 00:05:12,585 --> 00:05:15,224 in the early two thousands, uh, when, when I was scaling 175 00:05:15,224 --> 00:05:19,335 my digital agency, the team grew to a size where things 176 00:05:19,335 --> 00:05:20,594 started to get really campy. 177 00:05:21,300 --> 00:05:23,010 And the culture became really diffused. 178 00:05:23,010 --> 00:05:25,590 There was the sales team, there was the design team, development 179 00:05:25,590 --> 00:05:26,880 team, and the executive team. 180 00:05:27,300 --> 00:05:29,130 And all of a sudden I realized that like there 181 00:05:29,130 --> 00:05:31,110 wasn't cohesion anymore. 182 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:33,580 And it, I really didn't like it. 183 00:05:33,690 --> 00:05:35,880 It wasn't like I was walking through enemy camps, 184 00:05:36,510 --> 00:05:37,650 but it was damn near it. 185 00:05:37,650 --> 00:05:39,150 And I was the CEO and founder. 186 00:05:39,450 --> 00:05:39,630 Yep. 187 00:05:39,659 --> 00:05:39,930 Right. 188 00:05:39,930 --> 00:05:42,150 And so imagine how it felt for everybody else. 189 00:05:42,719 --> 00:05:45,750 I remember on my 27th birthday, uh, I remember walking into 190 00:05:45,750 --> 00:05:49,620 the office and by this point we had like 700 people. 191 00:05:50,039 --> 00:05:52,169 And I remember walking into the office and being 192 00:05:52,169 --> 00:05:53,789 like, I don't wanna walk through the front door. 193 00:05:54,090 --> 00:05:54,960 Not 'cause it was my birthday. 194 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,120 That, that part actually didn't bother me, but 195 00:05:57,419 --> 00:05:59,969 because I was like, I don't like where I work anymore. 196 00:06:00,150 --> 00:06:00,359 Right. 197 00:06:00,359 --> 00:06:02,370 I, I just stop right there. 198 00:06:02,370 --> 00:06:02,460 Yep. 199 00:06:02,669 --> 00:06:06,599 I worked so hard to get there and I didn't wanna be there. 200 00:06:06,599 --> 00:06:06,659 Yeah. 201 00:06:06,929 --> 00:06:07,500 Here's why. 202 00:06:07,919 --> 00:06:08,880 Because it sucked Now. 203 00:06:09,300 --> 00:06:09,660 Right. 204 00:06:09,660 --> 00:06:11,340 Like all the things that that like kind of 205 00:06:11,340 --> 00:06:13,350 made it cool, went away. 206 00:06:13,410 --> 00:06:15,630 We had so many people, like I'd be on an elevator and 207 00:06:15,630 --> 00:06:17,795 I had no idea who a single person was in the elevator. 208 00:06:17,795 --> 00:06:18,395 Who else was on there? 209 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:18,480 Right. 210 00:06:18,510 --> 00:06:19,620 They knew I was right. 211 00:06:19,620 --> 00:06:21,270 I still got like a sore thumb, but I had no 212 00:06:21,270 --> 00:06:22,200 idea who anybody was. 213 00:06:22,530 --> 00:06:26,640 We had tons of meetings about upcoming meetings, right? 214 00:06:26,700 --> 00:06:26,760 Yeah. 215 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:29,130 A meeting about an upcoming meeting that we're gonna have. 216 00:06:29,250 --> 00:06:29,550 Right. 217 00:06:29,550 --> 00:06:32,100 And I'm like, this is the lamest thing ever. 218 00:06:32,100 --> 00:06:34,470 Now I get it, but there's no version. 219 00:06:35,070 --> 00:06:37,739 When we were going through this, you know, transformation 220 00:06:38,099 --> 00:06:40,409 where I was like, you know, what'd be really awesome if 221 00:06:40,409 --> 00:06:42,840 we get to a point where we're having meetings about meetings 222 00:06:42,989 --> 00:06:45,270 or where I could go anywhere in the building and probably not 223 00:06:45,270 --> 00:06:47,880 know who a single person is, like, can't wait to get here. 224 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:51,510 Or my favorite, we have $10 million a month of payroll. 225 00:06:52,349 --> 00:06:54,810 I can't wait to have that liability, uh, every 226 00:06:54,810 --> 00:06:55,560 night when I go to bed. 227 00:06:55,830 --> 00:06:56,099 Right? 228 00:06:56,099 --> 00:06:56,190 Yeah. 229 00:06:56,219 --> 00:06:57,270 Like that feels good. 230 00:06:57,510 --> 00:06:59,550 Those levels of problems. 231 00:06:59,730 --> 00:07:01,680 I was never like, this is gonna be awesome. 232 00:07:01,950 --> 00:07:03,990 Or how about this, uh, you could appreciate from the 233 00:07:03,990 --> 00:07:06,690 agency world, a single client that if they change their 234 00:07:06,690 --> 00:07:08,190 mind, I have to fire everybody. 235 00:07:08,550 --> 00:07:10,740 Yeah, so, so that's an interesting one and because I 236 00:07:10,740 --> 00:07:12,540 think that's one of those things that a lot of startups chase, 237 00:07:12,540 --> 00:07:13,950 whether agency or anything. 238 00:07:13,950 --> 00:07:15,420 We chase big logos, right? 239 00:07:15,420 --> 00:07:16,140 Big customers. 240 00:07:16,140 --> 00:07:16,230 Yep. 241 00:07:16,230 --> 00:07:17,070 Big logo customers. 242 00:07:17,340 --> 00:07:20,160 What I realized at some point, uh, were that those 243 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:22,050 were roadmap handcuffs. 244 00:07:22,410 --> 00:07:22,650 Yeah. 245 00:07:22,890 --> 00:07:23,100 Right? 246 00:07:23,100 --> 00:07:23,220 Yep. 247 00:07:23,220 --> 00:07:24,690 Their money starts flowing in. 248 00:07:25,020 --> 00:07:27,420 My autonomy just started flowing out. 249 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,420 We were just building what they wanted built. 250 00:07:30,450 --> 00:07:32,695 It started to dictate a lot of what we were doing. 251 00:07:33,540 --> 00:07:35,310 Because from a financial standpoint, they were, 252 00:07:35,310 --> 00:07:36,360 they were super important. 253 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:37,590 So we got a lot bigger. 254 00:07:37,890 --> 00:07:38,640 We didn't get a lot better. 255 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:39,690 We got better for them. 256 00:07:39,900 --> 00:07:40,290 Yeah, right. 257 00:07:40,290 --> 00:07:41,940 Um, but not necessarily for the rest of the customer base. 258 00:07:42,675 --> 00:07:45,585 I think to me that was one of the ones that was least obvious. 259 00:07:45,585 --> 00:07:47,445 'cause I think some of this stuff like decision making 260 00:07:47,445 --> 00:07:49,755 speed, I think you understand as you get bigger, yeah, there's 261 00:07:49,755 --> 00:07:51,075 gonna be more red tape, right? 262 00:07:51,075 --> 00:07:51,195 Yeah. 263 00:07:51,195 --> 00:07:53,145 And we go from lunch table speed to committee speed, 264 00:07:53,595 --> 00:07:54,705 the headcount creep. 265 00:07:55,095 --> 00:07:56,655 I think everybody sees that one coming, right? 266 00:07:56,655 --> 00:07:58,215 It's gonna mean more managers. 267 00:07:58,575 --> 00:08:00,255 More meetings, less access. 268 00:08:00,255 --> 00:08:01,155 We don't push back on it shit. 269 00:08:01,155 --> 00:08:01,244 But 270 00:08:01,905 --> 00:08:02,804 right now, that's the issue, man. 271 00:08:03,015 --> 00:08:06,554 Uh, no one says, Hey, maybe we shouldn't do this because 272 00:08:06,554 --> 00:08:07,455 we'll be less efficient. 273 00:08:07,815 --> 00:08:07,965 Yes. 274 00:08:07,965 --> 00:08:09,885 Like, well, we need people, so hire people. 275 00:08:09,885 --> 00:08:10,635 And that's, that's all there 276 00:08:10,635 --> 00:08:10,905 is to 277 00:08:10,905 --> 00:08:11,054 it. 278 00:08:11,205 --> 00:08:11,505 Right. 279 00:08:11,565 --> 00:08:13,575 It's, it's a foregone conclusion that this is just, it's 280 00:08:13,575 --> 00:08:14,625 a cost of doing business. 281 00:08:14,804 --> 00:08:15,015 Right. 282 00:08:15,015 --> 00:08:15,465 Exactly. 283 00:08:15,465 --> 00:08:17,804 Is it The cost of doing business is one of the most 284 00:08:17,895 --> 00:08:20,924 empty, horrible pieces of advice that I've ever seen. 285 00:08:21,104 --> 00:08:21,434 Right. 286 00:08:21,705 --> 00:08:24,104 And my appendage to that is according to whom. 287 00:08:24,885 --> 00:08:25,185 Right. 288 00:08:25,575 --> 00:08:25,785 Right. 289 00:08:25,785 --> 00:08:27,045 You know, that's just the cost of doing business. 290 00:08:27,525 --> 00:08:27,615 Yeah. 291 00:08:27,615 --> 00:08:30,285 According to which person that had no vision or 292 00:08:30,285 --> 00:08:32,775 no creativity that could have avoided this outcome. 293 00:08:32,835 --> 00:08:33,435 Right, right. 294 00:08:33,435 --> 00:08:34,365 It's already stuck on the other 295 00:08:34,365 --> 00:08:35,955 side of it and trying to justify it now. 296 00:08:35,955 --> 00:08:36,015 Yeah. 297 00:08:36,555 --> 00:08:36,765 Right. 298 00:08:36,765 --> 00:08:37,005 In 299 00:08:37,034 --> 00:08:39,525 instead of making it this like universal axiom, I 300 00:08:39,525 --> 00:08:41,745 always like to point it at a person specifically 301 00:08:42,105 --> 00:08:43,680 and say according to them. 302 00:08:44,865 --> 00:08:45,824 In what they know. 303 00:08:46,094 --> 00:08:48,525 They think that's, that's the best decision. 304 00:08:48,584 --> 00:08:50,925 When you humanize, you're like, well, fuck, what 305 00:08:50,925 --> 00:08:51,675 the hell do they know? 306 00:08:53,025 --> 00:08:53,175 Yeah. 307 00:08:53,175 --> 00:08:54,135 This is such a good advice. 308 00:08:54,375 --> 00:08:54,704 Anyway. 309 00:08:55,125 --> 00:08:55,935 Sounds nice. 310 00:08:55,935 --> 00:08:58,214 But so when we, through some of these things, right? 311 00:08:58,214 --> 00:09:00,255 So we, we've talked about decision making speeds, you 312 00:09:00,255 --> 00:09:02,714 know, the, the bigger customers and, and again, the point I 313 00:09:02,714 --> 00:09:05,775 was trying to make there was not that there any of them are 314 00:09:05,775 --> 00:09:08,474 justified, but that some of them were sort of easier to see that 315 00:09:08,474 --> 00:09:09,734 they were gonna cause changes. 316 00:09:09,974 --> 00:09:10,155 Yep. 317 00:09:10,155 --> 00:09:10,245 Right. 318 00:09:10,704 --> 00:09:12,984 To me at the time, it was, it was such a surprise. 319 00:09:12,984 --> 00:09:14,875 Like the, the, the big logo, right? 320 00:09:14,875 --> 00:09:18,234 When I brought on big, big national insurance company, 321 00:09:18,834 --> 00:09:23,094 all of a sudden, like they were dictating a lot of, I basically 322 00:09:23,094 --> 00:09:25,189 had a boss at that point didn't realize that I was, say the same 323 00:09:25,189 --> 00:09:25,949 thing about investors, right? 324 00:09:26,395 --> 00:09:27,204 Same concept. 325 00:09:27,685 --> 00:09:29,005 So, so very similar thing, right? 326 00:09:29,005 --> 00:09:31,584 Like when, when the, you know, we money comes in, 327 00:09:31,974 --> 00:09:33,505 we celebrate the wire. 328 00:09:34,230 --> 00:09:36,090 We forget that there's strings attached. 329 00:09:36,095 --> 00:09:36,325 Right? 330 00:09:36,565 --> 00:09:36,930 Right, right. 331 00:09:36,930 --> 00:09:38,820 So all of a sudden those things change. 332 00:09:38,820 --> 00:09:41,910 So if you go back in time and, and think about some of these 333 00:09:41,910 --> 00:09:44,310 things, what victory, right? 334 00:09:44,340 --> 00:09:44,820 Victory. 335 00:09:44,820 --> 00:09:45,630 I'm air quoting here. 336 00:09:45,630 --> 00:09:47,130 For everybody that's just listening and out watching 337 00:09:47,460 --> 00:09:50,790 what victory, big customer, big funding rounds, big 338 00:09:50,790 --> 00:09:54,330 hiring, whatever it was quietly cost you the most freedom. 339 00:09:54,990 --> 00:09:56,820 Honestly, it was, it was fundraising. 340 00:09:57,145 --> 00:09:58,920 And, and, and I remember the first time I got a 341 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:01,950 call from an investor where I, I knew the purpose of 342 00:10:01,950 --> 00:10:03,330 the call wasn't positive. 343 00:10:03,795 --> 00:10:06,375 That's when it really resonated with me. 344 00:10:06,615 --> 00:10:06,675 Yeah. 345 00:10:06,675 --> 00:10:10,005 That's, that's when I was like, oh shit, I just hired a boss. 346 00:10:10,515 --> 00:10:10,665 Yeah. 347 00:10:10,810 --> 00:10:13,485 Um, and I celebrated it, and it's exactly what 348 00:10:13,485 --> 00:10:14,685 I was trying to avoid. 349 00:10:15,015 --> 00:10:15,195 Yeah. 350 00:10:15,195 --> 00:10:18,345 And because I wanted to be bigger, which, you know, again, 351 00:10:18,350 --> 00:10:19,635 I, I, I understood the goal. 352 00:10:19,875 --> 00:10:23,295 I created this new cost that I didn't really appreciate. 353 00:10:23,355 --> 00:10:24,705 And I remember seeing it on my phone. 354 00:10:24,705 --> 00:10:26,895 I was seeing this person calling in and being like, 355 00:10:26,895 --> 00:10:29,235 they're about to give me some shit that I wouldn't 356 00:10:29,235 --> 00:10:30,435 have gotten five minutes ago. 357 00:10:30,795 --> 00:10:31,485 Right, right. 358 00:10:31,545 --> 00:10:32,535 And, and here we go. 359 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:35,460 I was like, man, the hell did I even sign up for this. 360 00:10:35,790 --> 00:10:37,620 The funny thing is I didn't even need the money like that. 361 00:10:37,620 --> 00:10:39,000 That was the funny thing, not because we were so 362 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,070 wealthy, because the amount of money we were raising 363 00:10:41,070 --> 00:10:42,210 wasn't that significant. 364 00:10:42,510 --> 00:10:45,510 And the reality is we only did it because someone offered 365 00:10:45,780 --> 00:10:48,540 to invest, not because we actually needed the money. 366 00:10:48,750 --> 00:10:51,450 And I was like, man, I was so enamored with the idea that 367 00:10:51,450 --> 00:10:53,970 someone was validating me that it didn't occur to me like that 368 00:10:53,970 --> 00:10:55,170 I shouldn't even be doing this. 369 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:55,530 Yeah. 370 00:10:55,740 --> 00:10:56,580 Well, we get enamored. 371 00:10:56,580 --> 00:10:58,770 It also, it can feel like a good signal, and I think a 372 00:10:58,770 --> 00:11:01,140 lot of founders fall into this trap, both in terms of funding 373 00:11:01,140 --> 00:11:02,370 and in terms of headcount. 374 00:11:02,745 --> 00:11:04,515 People love to toss around it. 375 00:11:04,515 --> 00:11:06,135 It's funny, I've started playing this little, this 376 00:11:06,135 --> 00:11:07,875 little game where people would be like, yeah, and we 377 00:11:07,875 --> 00:11:09,255 just screwed to 150 people. 378 00:11:09,615 --> 00:11:12,705 And I'm kind about it, but I'm my, my first, the first 379 00:11:12,705 --> 00:11:15,015 thing I always say is like, ah, condolences, how you feeling? 380 00:11:15,075 --> 00:11:15,285 Right? 381 00:11:16,245 --> 00:11:17,415 Not what they're expecting, right? 382 00:11:17,415 --> 00:11:18,885 Because they're right sign of growth. 383 00:11:18,885 --> 00:11:19,785 This is a sign of all these good things. 384 00:11:20,145 --> 00:11:21,420 They, they're, they're not, they're not tracking 385 00:11:21,420 --> 00:11:22,035 the other side of it. 386 00:11:22,515 --> 00:11:26,415 I think for me, I noticed a couple red flags that started to 387 00:11:26,415 --> 00:11:27,375 be indicators of these things. 388 00:11:27,375 --> 00:11:28,755 The canaries in the coal mine, if you will. 389 00:11:29,099 --> 00:11:32,099 One was like, the minute I, I realized that we need 390 00:11:32,099 --> 00:11:34,740 to have a meeting to decide if we need a meeting. 391 00:11:35,310 --> 00:11:35,640 Right? 392 00:11:35,670 --> 00:11:36,420 That's a great one. 393 00:11:36,540 --> 00:11:36,719 Right? 394 00:11:36,719 --> 00:11:39,839 All of a sudden you're like, I think we might be bigger than 395 00:11:39,839 --> 00:11:42,060 we need to be if we have to have a meeting about a meeting. 396 00:11:42,390 --> 00:11:46,439 The minute I see anybody in our team spending more time updating 397 00:11:46,439 --> 00:11:50,010 dashboards than, yeah, than than customers, it's a huge one. 398 00:11:50,310 --> 00:11:53,219 The minute I'm learning about product changes or 399 00:11:53,219 --> 00:11:56,099 like really meaningful stuff within the company on a slide. 400 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:59,400 Not in the hallway, not in Slack, not just through like 401 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:00,870 normal course of conversation. 402 00:12:01,380 --> 00:12:04,350 These are all things that are just indicators to me that, uh, 403 00:12:04,500 --> 00:12:07,199 we might be a little too big for our britches at this point. 404 00:12:07,319 --> 00:12:07,980 I think what was. 405 00:12:08,715 --> 00:12:11,865 Really telling for me, uh, this is around the staff size, 406 00:12:12,015 --> 00:12:15,555 is when we let someone go and we didn't replace them and 407 00:12:15,555 --> 00:12:16,725 absolutely nothing happened. 408 00:12:17,145 --> 00:12:17,445 Right. 409 00:12:17,505 --> 00:12:18,855 And it was one of those things where, yeah, when 410 00:12:18,855 --> 00:12:20,655 the person is there, and this could be, this is gonna 411 00:12:20,655 --> 00:12:21,495 apply to lots of companies. 412 00:12:21,915 --> 00:12:25,005 When the person is there and they're doing their job, we 413 00:12:25,005 --> 00:12:27,735 all just assume because they're still there and they're still 414 00:12:27,735 --> 00:12:30,405 showing up for work and they're engaging with everybody, that, 415 00:12:30,405 --> 00:12:32,535 that work must still need to be done by, you know, a 416 00:12:32,535 --> 00:12:33,555 full-time person, whatever. 417 00:12:33,615 --> 00:12:34,035 Yeah. 418 00:12:34,035 --> 00:12:34,095 Yeah. 419 00:12:34,095 --> 00:12:34,780 And then they leave. 420 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:39,000 No one backfills them and no one notices, nothing happens. 421 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:40,740 He's like, what the hell, man? 422 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:41,910 And mind 423 00:12:41,910 --> 00:12:44,700 you, how we've been playing without a left back, I dunno. 424 00:12:44,700 --> 00:12:45,630 We're still winning games. 425 00:12:46,650 --> 00:12:47,010 Right? 426 00:12:47,310 --> 00:12:49,170 So I think, let's start with this. 427 00:12:49,170 --> 00:12:52,830 So the, the premise here being that we've got all of these 428 00:12:52,830 --> 00:12:57,840 hidden costs, we're scrambling to, to incur these costs, but no 429 00:12:57,840 --> 00:12:59,760 one stops and says, should we? 430 00:12:59,940 --> 00:13:01,230 Now there's another side to this. 431 00:13:01,589 --> 00:13:04,949 Which is, I don't think I could name 10% of founders 432 00:13:04,949 --> 00:13:07,319 right now, Ryan, that could tell me right off the top 433 00:13:07,319 --> 00:13:09,780 of their head, tell me why. 434 00:13:09,990 --> 00:13:11,490 What makes your company better? 435 00:13:11,969 --> 00:13:13,199 Not bigger, right? 436 00:13:13,199 --> 00:13:14,910 People say I'm more staff, more revenue, whatever. 437 00:13:15,089 --> 00:13:17,310 What makes your company better? 438 00:13:17,550 --> 00:13:17,880 Yeah. 439 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:18,959 I think the definition around 440 00:13:18,959 --> 00:13:22,290 that is gonna be soft for just about everybody we know. 441 00:13:22,740 --> 00:13:23,280 Unbelievable. 442 00:13:23,305 --> 00:13:26,460 If, if you asked us my, uh, we've even podcasted about this, 443 00:13:26,610 --> 00:13:27,810 my first answer is freedom. 444 00:13:28,170 --> 00:13:29,220 That's what makes us better. 445 00:13:29,220 --> 00:13:32,310 The more freedom we get@startups.com, the 446 00:13:32,310 --> 00:13:33,540 better a company we are. 447 00:13:33,750 --> 00:13:34,020 Right? 448 00:13:34,020 --> 00:13:37,170 And yes, it's been wild to watch how that manifests, Ryan, 449 00:13:37,170 --> 00:13:39,480 because, like through this company, like in the time that 450 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:41,160 you know, that you and I have been building together and, 451 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:42,905 and doing things together, uh, we've become parents. 452 00:13:43,605 --> 00:13:46,814 So, uh, you know, the freedom to be parents has been 453 00:13:46,875 --> 00:13:50,564 paramount for us, but we've also had, in our culture, 454 00:13:50,564 --> 00:13:53,775 as we've created a remote culture, I think we've created 455 00:13:53,775 --> 00:13:55,725 more freedom for our staff. 456 00:13:56,115 --> 00:13:57,795 A hundred percent, like more independence. 457 00:13:57,795 --> 00:13:58,755 Anybody would disagree with that? 458 00:13:59,055 --> 00:13:59,324 Yep. 459 00:14:00,135 --> 00:14:02,685 And I think we take it for granted, but when folks come 460 00:14:02,685 --> 00:14:06,435 to work here and they're like, wait, I, I'm on my own schedule. 461 00:14:06,675 --> 00:14:07,005 Yeah. 462 00:14:07,064 --> 00:14:09,165 Let's just check and do your job, right? 463 00:14:09,165 --> 00:14:09,255 Hmm. 464 00:14:09,824 --> 00:14:10,005 Right. 465 00:14:10,365 --> 00:14:10,905 Right. 466 00:14:10,935 --> 00:14:13,125 What, what I'm saying is like, for us, that's better. 467 00:14:13,545 --> 00:14:16,155 But I think when people come from another culture and they 468 00:14:16,155 --> 00:14:19,095 come here and and see how important freedom was to us, 469 00:14:19,095 --> 00:14:23,235 independence was to us and they get to enjoy what that means. 470 00:14:23,835 --> 00:14:24,705 Their heads explode. 471 00:14:24,825 --> 00:14:24,885 Yeah. 472 00:14:24,885 --> 00:14:25,725 They're like, holy shit. 473 00:14:25,845 --> 00:14:27,525 Like this is, this is incredible. 474 00:14:27,945 --> 00:14:31,005 But my point is it's because we invested in better. 475 00:14:31,890 --> 00:14:34,050 It's because we said freedom is is better for us. 476 00:14:34,050 --> 00:14:34,110 Yeah. 477 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:36,330 So we do more things that make us more free. 478 00:14:36,330 --> 00:14:37,380 Ergo no investors. 479 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:37,980 Yeah. 480 00:14:38,100 --> 00:14:40,050 And unfortunately I think that, that, that takes a 481 00:14:40,050 --> 00:14:44,010 very different level of, of introspection and, and planning 482 00:14:44,010 --> 00:14:47,580 and conversation because, you know, we typically plan for. 483 00:14:48,225 --> 00:14:50,805 Bigger with a spreadsheet, right? 484 00:14:50,805 --> 00:14:52,995 Like it's, there's some version of, of a model that we're 485 00:14:52,995 --> 00:14:54,855 gonna be like, here's how way we're gonna, we're gonna scale 486 00:14:54,855 --> 00:14:55,395 this, we're gonna do this. 487 00:14:55,605 --> 00:14:59,385 But you can't really plan for better in the same way, right? 488 00:14:59,385 --> 00:15:02,145 Better, better takes a narrative, better takes some, 489 00:15:02,145 --> 00:15:03,435 some honesty, better takes. 490 00:15:03,935 --> 00:15:08,435 Time and, and, and a different level of introspection and, 491 00:15:08,435 --> 00:15:09,210 and discussion, I think. 492 00:15:09,270 --> 00:15:10,865 And I think that's, that's tough. 493 00:15:11,375 --> 00:15:12,815 You know, something that's really 494 00:15:12,815 --> 00:15:15,785 funny about everything we talk about here is 495 00:15:15,785 --> 00:15:17,525 that none of it is new. 496 00:15:17,795 --> 00:15:20,405 Everything you're dealing with right now has been done a 497 00:15:20,405 --> 00:15:24,185 thousand times before you, which means the answer already exists. 498 00:15:24,185 --> 00:15:25,155 You may just not know it. 499 00:15:25,290 --> 00:15:26,069 But that's okay. 500 00:15:26,430 --> 00:15:28,260 That's kind of what we're here to do. 501 00:15:28,260 --> 00:15:30,930 We talk about this stuff on the show, but we actually 502 00:15:30,930 --> 00:15:35,040 solve these problems all dayLong@groups.startups.com. 503 00:15:35,099 --> 00:15:38,400 So if any of this sounds familiar, stop guessing 504 00:15:38,459 --> 00:15:41,430 about what to do, let us just give you the answers to the 505 00:15:41,430 --> 00:15:42,780 test and be done with it. 506 00:15:43,380 --> 00:15:44,760 Ryan, you know what took for me? 507 00:15:45,270 --> 00:15:46,530 Guilt was my issue. 508 00:15:46,860 --> 00:15:49,890 It took me being willing to be guilty. 509 00:15:50,430 --> 00:15:50,580 Yeah. 510 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:52,560 Uh, and, and here's, here's how that manifested. 511 00:15:52,950 --> 00:15:56,640 When I think about, Hey, this company needs to grow, I am 512 00:15:56,970 --> 00:16:00,360 instantly, this is my default programming saying it should 513 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,250 grow at the, at any cost to me. 514 00:16:04,125 --> 00:16:05,625 At any cost to me. 515 00:16:05,865 --> 00:16:06,195 Right. 516 00:16:06,435 --> 00:16:08,775 So going back to the agency days, and I'm sure you dealt 517 00:16:08,775 --> 00:16:11,535 with this too, it was like, oh, we need to sign a client 518 00:16:11,535 --> 00:16:14,325 and I need to be halfway across the country all the time. 519 00:16:14,385 --> 00:16:16,245 At the time you and I were single, so it didn't matter. 520 00:16:16,305 --> 00:16:16,815 Yeah, right. 521 00:16:17,055 --> 00:16:18,675 But now with kids, yeah. 522 00:16:18,705 --> 00:16:21,525 Basically what we're saying is if, if I fly across the 523 00:16:21,525 --> 00:16:23,565 country to sign that client and I know I'm gonna have 524 00:16:23,565 --> 00:16:26,625 to be on site, whatever, I'm gonna see less of my children. 525 00:16:27,015 --> 00:16:30,105 My work guilt would say, yep, sounds right 526 00:16:30,405 --> 00:16:31,275 for the record. 527 00:16:31,725 --> 00:16:34,485 Guilt is a terrible Chief operating officer. 528 00:16:34,545 --> 00:16:34,815 Right. 529 00:16:34,815 --> 00:16:37,425 You never want to hire guilt as the Chief operating 530 00:16:37,425 --> 00:16:39,015 officer, but Right, right. 531 00:16:39,075 --> 00:16:40,905 It is the default operating officer. 532 00:16:41,055 --> 00:16:41,205 Right. 533 00:16:41,205 --> 00:16:41,505 That's the 534 00:16:41,505 --> 00:16:41,775 problem. 535 00:16:41,775 --> 00:16:41,985 Correct. 536 00:16:42,345 --> 00:16:42,675 Right. 537 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:42,770 Yeah. 538 00:16:42,830 --> 00:16:45,375 And, and, and I would look at it and I would say, oh, 539 00:16:45,435 --> 00:16:47,925 uh, you know, again, this is, uh, you know, former me, 540 00:16:48,225 --> 00:16:48,975 wall Street didn't have kids. 541 00:16:48,975 --> 00:16:50,925 This time I would've been like, oh, well, I 542 00:16:50,925 --> 00:16:51,915 guess we need to grow. 543 00:16:51,915 --> 00:16:53,025 I guess we need this client. 544 00:16:53,055 --> 00:16:53,115 Yeah. 545 00:16:53,145 --> 00:16:54,795 So I guess I'll just see less of my kid. 546 00:16:55,185 --> 00:16:55,245 Yeah. 547 00:16:55,245 --> 00:16:57,975 Now I'm saying that specifically, you know, back 548 00:16:57,975 --> 00:17:00,705 then as, as the, the founder and CEO of that company. 549 00:17:01,345 --> 00:17:03,635 I'm also saying it for everybody that works with me. 550 00:17:04,454 --> 00:17:04,755 Right. 551 00:17:04,935 --> 00:17:06,825 It's like, Hey, we got this new account and everybody's high 552 00:17:06,825 --> 00:17:09,795 fiving and, and like, imagine if I just said this straight up. 553 00:17:10,095 --> 00:17:11,954 We just signed on this new account that will all of a 554 00:17:11,954 --> 00:17:14,474 sudden create a liability on payroll where we'll be like 555 00:17:14,505 --> 00:17:18,105 disproportionately indebted, uh, to that one particular client. 556 00:17:18,135 --> 00:17:18,435 Yeah. 557 00:17:18,435 --> 00:17:18,444 Yeah. 558 00:17:18,735 --> 00:17:22,575 All of you can look at your, your kids and your spouses and. 559 00:17:22,935 --> 00:17:25,275 Uh, chalk off about 30% of the quality time you've 560 00:17:25,275 --> 00:17:26,025 ever spent with them. 561 00:17:26,385 --> 00:17:28,545 Uh, we'll also be increasing everybody's stress level 562 00:17:28,725 --> 00:17:31,395 and likely not compensating you for any of it. 563 00:17:31,815 --> 00:17:32,685 Mention that announcement. 564 00:17:32,685 --> 00:17:33,045 Not to worry. 565 00:17:33,045 --> 00:17:35,235 We've pre-ordered birthday and Christmas gifts for your 566 00:17:35,235 --> 00:17:37,155 children and your wives because you won't be seeing them. 567 00:17:37,575 --> 00:17:39,225 So it's okay. 568 00:17:39,675 --> 00:17:40,905 But that's not the message, right? 569 00:17:40,905 --> 00:17:43,065 The narrative is we sign this big client 570 00:17:43,425 --> 00:17:44,595 bigger, better, right? 571 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:44,720 Yeah. 572 00:17:45,435 --> 00:17:49,245 But the cost to everybody involved is absolutely, um, 573 00:17:49,365 --> 00:17:51,495 something that everybody has to bear, including, you know, 574 00:17:51,795 --> 00:17:52,995 us as the, the founders. 575 00:17:53,025 --> 00:17:53,295 Yeah. 576 00:17:53,385 --> 00:17:55,665 But we never really talk about it. 577 00:17:56,175 --> 00:17:57,315 We don't And it's a miss. 578 00:17:57,435 --> 00:17:57,855 It is. 579 00:17:57,855 --> 00:17:58,125 It is. 580 00:17:58,125 --> 00:17:59,835 But, and I think there's a reason for it, and I 581 00:17:59,835 --> 00:18:02,955 think that's because the, the cost of growth can 582 00:18:02,955 --> 00:18:04,125 show up on the p and l. 583 00:18:04,665 --> 00:18:04,905 Yeah. 584 00:18:04,965 --> 00:18:05,325 Right. 585 00:18:05,475 --> 00:18:07,875 If we, if we fail to do things to become bigger, 586 00:18:07,875 --> 00:18:10,065 to, to, to stop growing, to, to make those decisions 587 00:18:10,065 --> 00:18:11,115 take on that big client. 588 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:13,740 The cost of growth doesn't, it does get 589 00:18:13,740 --> 00:18:14,610 reflected in the p and l. 590 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:19,260 The cost of regret does not, but it sure is shit compounds. 591 00:18:19,385 --> 00:18:19,735 Right. 592 00:18:19,740 --> 00:18:20,040 Right. 593 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,710 And so as I think that, that's the trade off that 594 00:18:22,710 --> 00:18:24,990 we make, we go like, yeah, but you know, we only need 595 00:18:24,990 --> 00:18:25,920 to grow a little bit more. 596 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:27,930 And once we're done with that, then we'll go back 597 00:18:27,930 --> 00:18:29,640 to seeing our family, then we'll go back to Right. 598 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:32,460 And so I, I think that, you know, we've talked about 599 00:18:32,460 --> 00:18:33,600 this before, will, but one of the things that we 600 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:37,980 provide on, on this, this podcast is, is permission. 601 00:18:38,370 --> 00:18:41,159 And so, you know, here's me, probably you as well, 602 00:18:41,159 --> 00:18:45,210 granting people permission to optimize for founder life 603 00:18:45,210 --> 00:18:46,770 design on purpose, right? 604 00:18:46,770 --> 00:18:46,919 Yeah. 605 00:18:46,919 --> 00:18:47,760 That's the whole rest of you, the point you're 606 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:48,360 starting a startup. 607 00:18:48,540 --> 00:18:48,750 Yeah. 608 00:18:48,870 --> 00:18:49,169 Yeah. 609 00:18:49,590 --> 00:18:50,939 It, it's supposed to be, right? 610 00:18:50,939 --> 00:18:54,389 And yet it just, it's so often is not the way it goes. 611 00:18:54,689 --> 00:18:54,870 It's 612 00:18:54,870 --> 00:18:57,120 easily lost that, that's the whole point, right? 613 00:18:57,120 --> 00:18:57,129 Yeah. 614 00:18:57,129 --> 00:18:59,939 And so we're sitting here going, here's what would make 615 00:18:59,939 --> 00:19:02,760 us bigger, uh, more staff, more office, whatever, right? 616 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:03,689 More capital, whatever. 617 00:19:04,245 --> 00:19:06,225 At which point we say, well, what would make this company 618 00:19:06,495 --> 00:19:09,885 better for the people who actually work here incidentally, 619 00:19:10,215 --> 00:19:11,715 none of those things. 620 00:19:11,985 --> 00:19:14,565 None of those things that we're about to do and 621 00:19:14,565 --> 00:19:16,065 kill ourselves to do Yep. 622 00:19:16,065 --> 00:19:19,815 Will actually make things better for anyone involved. 623 00:19:20,024 --> 00:19:20,325 Okay. 624 00:19:20,325 --> 00:19:20,415 Yep. 625 00:19:20,655 --> 00:19:22,605 So for example, I'm like, Hey, we're gonna 626 00:19:22,605 --> 00:19:23,504 add a hundred people. 627 00:19:24,014 --> 00:19:24,495 Okay? 628 00:19:24,675 --> 00:19:28,034 Like I get it, it on in the p and l, having been a CFO 629 00:19:28,034 --> 00:19:31,305 for 25 years, I understand exactly how that benefits. 630 00:19:31,750 --> 00:19:32,350 The company. 631 00:19:32,350 --> 00:19:32,410 Yeah. 632 00:19:32,770 --> 00:19:33,160 Okay. 633 00:19:33,550 --> 00:19:36,280 But if you're the founder, if you're the, the, the people 634 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:39,520 that are responsible for making payroll for all of 635 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:43,690 these people, your life just got a hundred times worse. 636 00:19:43,690 --> 00:19:43,780 Right? 637 00:19:44,110 --> 00:19:46,810 There's no version of adding a hundred people where 638 00:19:46,810 --> 00:19:47,860 your life gets better. 639 00:19:48,100 --> 00:19:49,690 You have a hundred new problems. 640 00:19:50,620 --> 00:19:54,070 You've just added, you've got a massive amount of monthly 641 00:19:54,070 --> 00:19:56,410 liability in kind of, you know, funding all of that. 642 00:19:56,790 --> 00:19:59,280 Also, by the way, if you're a funded startup that's 643 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:01,530 swinging vine to vine on funding rounds, you are 644 00:20:01,530 --> 00:20:02,970 well aware of this problem. 645 00:20:03,030 --> 00:20:03,420 Okay? 646 00:20:03,660 --> 00:20:08,220 And then the other issue is that now all of the, the reporting 647 00:20:08,220 --> 00:20:10,920 and all the things that you have to do in order to operate 648 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:13,830 a company are far more complex. 649 00:20:13,860 --> 00:20:16,710 You just jumped in mud and you're trying to sprint and 650 00:20:16,710 --> 00:20:18,930 you're thinking to yourself, this is gonna be awesome. 651 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:19,980 No, it's not. 652 00:20:20,745 --> 00:20:23,490 It's actually not, then you're surprised when it's not awesome. 653 00:20:23,490 --> 00:20:23,669 Right? 654 00:20:23,669 --> 00:20:24,570 Oh my God, this is so shitty. 655 00:20:24,570 --> 00:20:25,139 Yeah, no kidding. 656 00:20:25,530 --> 00:20:26,850 Uh, you didn't optimize for better. 657 00:20:27,300 --> 00:20:27,720 Yeah. 658 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:29,970 But again, I think that's, that goes back to just 659 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:31,949 making sure that we got a clear definition of, of, 660 00:20:32,070 --> 00:20:33,270 of what that actually is. 661 00:20:33,274 --> 00:20:33,355 Right? 662 00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:33,510 Right. 663 00:20:33,510 --> 00:20:34,919 And you, you talked about some of 'em, and I think there 664 00:20:34,919 --> 00:20:36,899 are some that are, that are kind of non-negotiables and 665 00:20:36,899 --> 00:20:39,389 I think people understand it, but they don't all have to be. 666 00:20:39,389 --> 00:20:41,280 So I want, I wanna be careful here because a lot of this 667 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:43,470 stuff that we've talked about is like freedom and you know, 668 00:20:43,470 --> 00:20:48,480 time and yes, but better is also things like profitability. 669 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:49,300 Oh yeah. 670 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:51,220 Versus net promot score promoter. 671 00:20:51,220 --> 00:20:51,765 Yeah, of course. 672 00:20:51,765 --> 00:20:52,065 Right. 673 00:20:52,155 --> 00:20:53,115 All those things. 674 00:20:53,475 --> 00:20:56,355 So it isn't, this isn't just about sacrificing 675 00:20:56,355 --> 00:20:59,205 because, because better doesn't just mean easier or 676 00:20:59,205 --> 00:21:01,095 convenient or nice to run. 677 00:21:01,095 --> 00:21:01,245 Right. 678 00:21:01,245 --> 00:21:03,285 It means truly a, a better business. 679 00:21:03,555 --> 00:21:03,885 Right. 680 00:21:03,915 --> 00:21:04,095 Right. 681 00:21:04,095 --> 00:21:07,245 And so I, I think I'm forming a framework in my 682 00:21:07,245 --> 00:21:08,235 head here and I'm trying. 683 00:21:08,909 --> 00:21:09,240 Okay. 684 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:11,610 It's, it's BB, b better before bigger. 685 00:21:12,959 --> 00:21:14,100 So let's go. 686 00:21:14,100 --> 00:21:15,030 So here's how it works. 687 00:21:15,449 --> 00:21:17,729 I want to define a couple of non-negotiables, 688 00:21:17,729 --> 00:21:18,510 like whatever those are. 689 00:21:18,510 --> 00:21:19,679 Like pick two or three. 690 00:21:19,740 --> 00:21:19,860 Yeah. 691 00:21:19,865 --> 00:21:21,510 That, that, you know, that these are the things like 692 00:21:21,510 --> 00:21:26,070 it's two days without meetings greater than 20% EBITDA and 693 00:21:26,189 --> 00:21:27,600 maintaining co company culture. 694 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:28,530 That last one I don't love. 695 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:30,449 'cause it's, that's, that's harder to see and kind of 696 00:21:30,449 --> 00:21:31,679 harder to, to, to, to manage. 697 00:21:31,679 --> 00:21:31,740 Yeah. 698 00:21:32,250 --> 00:21:34,560 But then anytime we're making a decision, right? 699 00:21:34,590 --> 00:21:37,889 Does this hire, does this customer. 700 00:21:38,639 --> 00:21:40,620 Does it increase or decrease those things? 701 00:21:41,100 --> 00:21:41,370 Yeah. 702 00:21:41,460 --> 00:21:43,860 Here, here's a great example, Ryan. 703 00:21:43,860 --> 00:21:46,290 Let's say you added 50 people to the marketing team. 704 00:21:46,530 --> 00:21:46,860 Yeah. 705 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:49,260 Do you like your job more because you're not gonna 706 00:21:49,260 --> 00:21:49,980 do marketing anymore? 707 00:21:50,429 --> 00:21:51,540 How many of them play soccer? 708 00:21:51,990 --> 00:21:53,790 And our blue belts are higher in Juujitsu. 709 00:21:55,350 --> 00:21:55,620 Right. 710 00:21:55,875 --> 00:21:58,500 'cause that will significantly change my answer because at 50 711 00:21:58,500 --> 00:22:01,560 people, I can get almost a mini league going at that point. 712 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:02,250 That'd be fantastic. 713 00:22:02,820 --> 00:22:03,690 Other than that, I would hate it. 714 00:22:03,870 --> 00:22:05,610 In which case there would be so much more 715 00:22:05,610 --> 00:22:06,660 efficient ways to do that. 716 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:07,379 Yeah. 717 00:22:07,649 --> 00:22:10,080 Like just go literally any yard, the soccer fields 718 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:11,820 that are a mile north of here probably would be an 719 00:22:11,820 --> 00:22:12,870 easier, easier thing to do. 720 00:22:12,870 --> 00:22:13,200 Exactly. 721 00:22:13,620 --> 00:22:14,490 But, but play that out. 722 00:22:14,490 --> 00:22:16,649 Like we're saying, Hey, we're gonna add more people. 723 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:18,990 Do any of us want the job that comes with 724 00:22:18,990 --> 00:22:20,010 adding all those people? 725 00:22:20,460 --> 00:22:20,970 Maybe. 726 00:22:21,540 --> 00:22:26,040 Maybe you really, really enjoy managing and not doing any work. 727 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:27,030 Now people hear that. 728 00:22:27,030 --> 00:22:28,620 They're like, oh, how dare you say that. 729 00:22:28,620 --> 00:22:29,460 Managing is work. 730 00:22:29,610 --> 00:22:32,100 It is okay, but it's a different work. 731 00:22:32,460 --> 00:22:32,820 Right. 732 00:22:33,030 --> 00:22:35,100 One of the things, and again, not everybody understands kind 733 00:22:35,100 --> 00:22:37,950 of the, the composition or how we, how we operate@startups.com, 734 00:22:38,340 --> 00:22:41,370 but one of the core tenets we've had at this business since day 735 00:22:41,370 --> 00:22:45,000 one is we say that every gen general carries a gun, right? 736 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:45,210 Yes. 737 00:22:45,330 --> 00:22:47,580 It has nothing to do with our free toting gun rights. 738 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,760 Uh, what it means is that everyone goes 739 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:51,780 to war here, right? 740 00:22:51,780 --> 00:22:54,960 Like nobody sits back and just like kind of calls, shots. 741 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:56,310 Everybody is, there is no balcony. 742 00:22:56,460 --> 00:22:57,420 There's only dance floor. 743 00:22:57,824 --> 00:22:58,215 Correct. 744 00:22:58,395 --> 00:22:59,745 Everybody is in the mix, right? 745 00:22:59,745 --> 00:23:01,905 Everybody's on the front lines, and we say that 746 00:23:01,905 --> 00:23:03,370 because it's what we enjoy. 747 00:23:04,620 --> 00:23:04,710 Yeah. 748 00:23:04,740 --> 00:23:08,100 Like I sit down every Monday and, and I try to 749 00:23:08,100 --> 00:23:10,320 come up with whatever the topic is gonna be for this. 750 00:23:10,500 --> 00:23:10,710 Right. 751 00:23:10,710 --> 00:23:12,460 You know, for, for the, the shows and our, our 752 00:23:12,460 --> 00:23:13,380 content and stuff like that. 753 00:23:13,950 --> 00:23:16,110 And I sit down and I write all the words. 754 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:16,560 Right. 755 00:23:16,590 --> 00:23:16,740 Yep. 756 00:23:16,980 --> 00:23:19,920 Now other companies eventually have like copywriters that 757 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:21,990 do that, or they outsource those things or whatever. 758 00:23:21,990 --> 00:23:22,230 Yeah. 759 00:23:22,230 --> 00:23:22,240 Yeah. 760 00:23:22,535 --> 00:23:25,355 And you know, as the CEO, there's a ton of things 761 00:23:25,355 --> 00:23:29,015 that I do that normally people give to someone else. 762 00:23:29,075 --> 00:23:29,345 Right. 763 00:23:29,435 --> 00:23:30,455 I'm also our CFO. 764 00:23:30,455 --> 00:23:30,515 Yeah. 765 00:23:30,575 --> 00:23:32,255 I literally do our finances right. 766 00:23:32,345 --> 00:23:33,635 You know, like a lot of people wouldn't think that, 767 00:23:33,665 --> 00:23:34,505 oh, you hire that out. 768 00:23:35,015 --> 00:23:36,455 I enjoy that work. 769 00:23:36,515 --> 00:23:37,955 I don't want it taken from 770 00:23:37,955 --> 00:23:38,105 me. 771 00:23:38,495 --> 00:23:39,755 And I think it goes beyond that. 772 00:23:39,755 --> 00:23:40,605 So the enjoyment part of it. 773 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,020 A hundred percent, and I'm glad for that. 774 00:23:43,020 --> 00:23:45,060 But I think the other side of that is that when we 775 00:23:45,060 --> 00:23:48,840 start to scale without soul, it's just size and then it 776 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:50,100 eventually just falls apart. 777 00:23:50,100 --> 00:23:52,110 This is where the, the quality starts to flag, right? 778 00:23:52,110 --> 00:23:54,480 So yeah, we could have sourced that out to somebody else, 779 00:23:54,900 --> 00:23:57,630 but somebody who hasn't lived as a founder, a across 30 780 00:23:57,630 --> 00:24:01,875 years and, and nine startups, they're not going to write the 781 00:24:01,875 --> 00:24:03,420 same content that you write. 782 00:24:03,630 --> 00:24:05,100 We're not going to have. 783 00:24:05,445 --> 00:24:07,575 The same podcast that we have. 784 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:07,950 Right. 785 00:24:07,955 --> 00:24:08,115 Right. 786 00:24:08,115 --> 00:24:10,845 And so that's, you know, while it seems like a funny 787 00:24:10,845 --> 00:24:13,034 little example of sitting down and writing an article 788 00:24:13,034 --> 00:24:16,215 on Monday, it's a pure encapsulation of exactly what 789 00:24:16,215 --> 00:24:17,085 we're talking about here. 790 00:24:17,085 --> 00:24:17,425 Right, right. 791 00:24:17,565 --> 00:24:21,315 The minute that scales and we go for efficiency over 792 00:24:21,315 --> 00:24:23,925 efficacy, one of my favorite things to talk about in all of 793 00:24:23,925 --> 00:24:26,655 startup land, we start to lose. 794 00:24:26,659 --> 00:24:26,960 Right? 795 00:24:26,965 --> 00:24:27,135 Right. 796 00:24:27,135 --> 00:24:31,155 We, we've now created a very efficient way to make something 797 00:24:31,155 --> 00:24:34,665 that maybe it doesn't suck, but it's not as awesome as it was. 798 00:24:35,415 --> 00:24:37,305 And that's, that's, that's the path to shitty. 799 00:24:37,605 --> 00:24:39,105 And I don't wanna be on the path to shitty. 800 00:24:39,495 --> 00:24:39,915 I agree. 801 00:24:40,005 --> 00:24:40,905 Let's build on that. 802 00:24:41,505 --> 00:24:43,995 If there's a version of startups.com that's 10 times 803 00:24:43,995 --> 00:24:47,145 bigger, uh, revenue, et cetera, but it comes at the cost of all 804 00:24:47,145 --> 00:24:49,935 the things that we love, our freedom, our culture, whatever. 805 00:24:50,145 --> 00:24:51,945 I just don't wanna work at that company. 806 00:24:52,395 --> 00:24:52,875 Uh, right. 807 00:24:52,875 --> 00:24:55,125 And, and, and we've had this conversation 'cause I have 808 00:24:55,125 --> 00:24:56,415 worked at that company before. 809 00:24:56,415 --> 00:24:56,475 Yeah. 810 00:24:56,775 --> 00:24:56,955 Right. 811 00:24:56,955 --> 00:24:59,010 So have I. And I just didn't like it. 812 00:24:59,325 --> 00:25:01,980 And, and again, there was a version where I hit kind 813 00:25:01,980 --> 00:25:04,830 of, um, a crossroads in my, in my life, in my career. 814 00:25:04,860 --> 00:25:07,170 This is again, my late twenties as, as that company was growing. 815 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:07,530 Yep. 816 00:25:07,740 --> 00:25:11,640 And it was like, I can stop here like chapter save point, right. 817 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:13,950 And go do something else that I actually enjoy or I can 818 00:25:13,950 --> 00:25:16,740 stay here and we're gonna go public and we're gonna go run 819 00:25:16,740 --> 00:25:18,690 a company and it's gonna be multi-billion dollar company. 820 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:20,610 And I chose to start. 821 00:25:20,625 --> 00:25:23,775 From scratch, which a lot of people would not choose to do. 822 00:25:23,865 --> 00:25:24,075 Right. 823 00:25:24,075 --> 00:25:25,845 A lot of people would be like, no, you have something 824 00:25:25,845 --> 00:25:27,315 successful, you just go do that. 825 00:25:28,185 --> 00:25:31,365 And at a young age, the tender age of 27, I raised my hand and 826 00:25:31,365 --> 00:25:33,045 said, but I'm not having fun. 827 00:25:33,765 --> 00:25:34,035 Yeah. 828 00:25:34,155 --> 00:25:34,425 Right. 829 00:25:34,725 --> 00:25:37,065 Now that was an expensive decision. 830 00:25:37,545 --> 00:25:39,465 Uh, I did okay, but I could've done a lot more. 831 00:25:39,495 --> 00:25:39,915 Okay. 832 00:25:39,945 --> 00:25:42,885 You know, had I, you know, stuck with the IPO, but I 833 00:25:42,885 --> 00:25:46,695 wanna point this out, I chose quality, I chose better. 834 00:25:46,995 --> 00:25:47,235 Yes. 835 00:25:47,235 --> 00:25:47,715 This is cool. 836 00:25:47,715 --> 00:25:49,485 I'm proud of what we've done, but I'm out. 837 00:25:49,770 --> 00:25:51,000 And I went and go did something else. 838 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:52,260 And I was very proud of that decision. 839 00:25:52,260 --> 00:25:54,120 I, I've never looked back a single day, this 840 00:25:54,120 --> 00:25:55,800 is like 25 years ago. 841 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:55,860 Yeah. 842 00:25:56,100 --> 00:25:58,320 I've never looked back a single day and said, man, I really 843 00:25:58,320 --> 00:25:59,250 wish I, I went for, should have 844 00:25:59,430 --> 00:26:00,150 stuck with that. 845 00:26:00,450 --> 00:26:00,780 Yeah. 846 00:26:00,780 --> 00:26:00,790 Yeah. 847 00:26:01,350 --> 00:26:04,230 Not even once, like, not even 1% be the operative word. 848 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:04,770 Right. 849 00:26:05,130 --> 00:26:07,380 And my wife and I talk about it and, you know, Sarah's so 850 00:26:07,380 --> 00:26:09,780 pragmatic and even she's like. 851 00:26:10,125 --> 00:26:11,505 I know you so well. 852 00:26:11,625 --> 00:26:14,415 There is no version where you would've survived. 853 00:26:14,835 --> 00:26:17,475 Your mental state would've never survived in being 854 00:26:17,475 --> 00:26:19,185 part of Big Corp. Right? 855 00:26:19,305 --> 00:26:22,545 Like me on a, a quarterly earnings call with 856 00:26:22,545 --> 00:26:25,185 analysts talking about the state of the healthcare 857 00:26:25,185 --> 00:26:27,015 advertising market at scale. 858 00:26:27,015 --> 00:26:28,065 Like literally. 859 00:26:28,535 --> 00:26:29,735 You trying to an 860 00:26:29,735 --> 00:26:32,765 eighties movie reference into that gets harder every 861 00:26:32,765 --> 00:26:34,025 year, you know, like it's 862 00:26:34,025 --> 00:26:34,655 not going well. 863 00:26:35,135 --> 00:26:36,965 But, but again, uh, and, and again, I'm, I'm 864 00:26:36,965 --> 00:26:37,775 proud of that business. 865 00:26:37,775 --> 00:26:40,655 But, but at the same time, I wanted no part of it. 866 00:26:40,955 --> 00:26:44,165 It literally, like, we went the growth path and I looked 867 00:26:44,165 --> 00:26:45,035 at that and I said, man. 868 00:26:45,700 --> 00:26:46,660 I don't enjoy that. 869 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,600 I like working in small, nimble teams. 870 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,570 I like working in the mix on products. 871 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:54,970 I don't like, you know, uh, just set telling other 872 00:26:54,970 --> 00:26:56,020 people how to build products. 873 00:26:56,020 --> 00:26:57,370 Like I wanna be in there. 874 00:26:57,700 --> 00:26:59,080 You've known me for a long time. 875 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,030 You know that when it comes to the product, the stuff 876 00:27:01,030 --> 00:27:04,660 that you see on startups.com, I probably wrote the copy. 877 00:27:04,660 --> 00:27:06,520 I probably designed that landing page. 878 00:27:06,610 --> 00:27:06,670 Yeah. 879 00:27:06,675 --> 00:27:08,800 I probably like, I am very in the mix. 880 00:27:08,830 --> 00:27:09,340 You're in it. 881 00:27:09,490 --> 00:27:09,760 Yep. 882 00:27:09,850 --> 00:27:10,120 Yeah. 883 00:27:10,390 --> 00:27:12,310 And, and I say that and I'm very proud of that. 884 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:14,440 And I know that there's a version where it's 885 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,930 holding us back from maybe getting bigger, maybe. 886 00:27:17,500 --> 00:27:18,400 And I don't care. 887 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,190 And I don't, I don't mean that like, uh, like in a callous way. 888 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,250 I mean No, no, because I believe we've optimized for quality, 889 00:27:24,490 --> 00:27:26,350 quality E exactly that, right? 890 00:27:26,350 --> 00:27:28,420 So we're, we're trying to, 'cause you can, you can 891 00:27:28,420 --> 00:27:29,290 make things louder, right? 892 00:27:29,290 --> 00:27:31,600 We're trying to go less noise, more signal. 893 00:27:32,024 --> 00:27:34,365 Um, you know, we're, we're trying to not, you know, grow 894 00:27:34,365 --> 00:27:38,655 talent volume, but trying to increase talent density and, you 895 00:27:38,655 --> 00:27:40,635 know, we're looking at the, the various scaling levers because 896 00:27:40,635 --> 00:27:43,034 I think, you know, there you can just add more and more and 897 00:27:43,034 --> 00:27:44,355 more and more customers, right? 898 00:27:44,355 --> 00:27:46,274 But you can also do things like raise pricing. 899 00:27:47,104 --> 00:27:49,864 You can narrow your ICP, right? 900 00:27:49,864 --> 00:27:52,235 It was counterintuitive, but like you, you start 901 00:27:52,235 --> 00:27:54,215 to focus in more and you start to move faster. 902 00:27:54,215 --> 00:27:58,084 Within that ICP you can deepen product for core users, which 903 00:27:58,084 --> 00:28:01,054 is very different than saying, let's add one more feature, 904 00:28:01,054 --> 00:28:03,004 let's add this, let's go broader and broader and broader. 905 00:28:03,004 --> 00:28:06,725 So we start to soak up more and more of the vanilla market. 906 00:28:07,054 --> 00:28:07,324 Right? 907 00:28:07,354 --> 00:28:09,725 Um, because to some degree saying no is a 908 00:28:09,725 --> 00:28:10,504 growth strategy, right? 909 00:28:10,745 --> 00:28:10,804 Yeah. 910 00:28:10,804 --> 00:28:10,925 Agree. 911 00:28:10,925 --> 00:28:12,935 When we trans skews cut features, kill the 912 00:28:12,935 --> 00:28:16,084 almost customers and really just focus on. 913 00:28:16,470 --> 00:28:19,920 Where we can drive the most quality that is growth. 914 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:21,540 And that's, that's not just growth, but it's 915 00:28:21,540 --> 00:28:23,760 the type of growth that you won't suffer from. 916 00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:24,270 Yeah. 917 00:28:24,300 --> 00:28:26,400 I'm actually, again, if I take a look at, at the, 918 00:28:26,430 --> 00:28:28,775 the, uh, the life path, if you will, of startups.com. 919 00:28:29,745 --> 00:28:32,835 I'm very proud of a lot of the decisions we've made 920 00:28:33,345 --> 00:28:34,875 when we've stuck to our guns. 921 00:28:34,995 --> 00:28:35,055 Yeah. 922 00:28:35,055 --> 00:28:36,915 We've had many opportunities where we could have shifted 923 00:28:36,915 --> 00:28:38,925 course and grown differently. 924 00:28:38,985 --> 00:28:40,485 We could, we could have added staff differently, we 925 00:28:40,485 --> 00:28:42,075 could have raised capital differently, et cetera. 926 00:28:42,405 --> 00:28:43,995 And I think about how many of those things 927 00:28:43,995 --> 00:28:45,195 we are not beholden to. 928 00:28:45,284 --> 00:28:45,524 Yeah. 929 00:28:46,365 --> 00:28:48,375 Even simple things like we never really created 930 00:28:48,375 --> 00:28:49,514 any debt for the company. 931 00:28:49,845 --> 00:28:49,995 Right. 932 00:28:49,995 --> 00:28:52,065 It's just something we didn't want hanging over our head. 933 00:28:52,095 --> 00:28:52,274 Right. 934 00:28:52,274 --> 00:28:54,105 We don't have a single debt payment to service. 935 00:28:54,195 --> 00:28:54,909 That's powerful. 936 00:28:55,860 --> 00:28:57,780 I mean, that, that is a decision, right? 937 00:28:57,780 --> 00:28:59,160 Of, of quality, of life. 938 00:28:59,190 --> 00:29:02,190 Yes, we could get bigger if we took on a whole bunch of debt 939 00:29:02,190 --> 00:29:05,250 or capital, et cetera, and I thought, ah, you know what? 940 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,320 We could just don't want it. 941 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:09,360 Like, it, it would not make our lives better. 942 00:29:09,510 --> 00:29:11,790 And, and I'm, I'm proud of standing firm 943 00:29:11,790 --> 00:29:12,510 on those decisions. 944 00:29:12,540 --> 00:29:16,350 And I gotta tell you what, if I look back, like on, 945 00:29:16,380 --> 00:29:18,480 you know, 30 years of, of building companies, right? 946 00:29:19,050 --> 00:29:21,480 I can't think of a single case where. 947 00:29:22,005 --> 00:29:24,975 I optimize for quality of life, like, you know, quality 948 00:29:24,975 --> 00:29:25,725 of life in a lot of ways. 949 00:29:25,725 --> 00:29:25,995 Right? 950 00:29:26,235 --> 00:29:26,805 And I regret it. 951 00:29:26,925 --> 00:29:28,725 I've never looked back and said like, yeah, oh shit. 952 00:29:28,725 --> 00:29:31,245 I, I, I really wish I'd put myself in a, a more 953 00:29:31,245 --> 00:29:32,475 leveraged position ever. 954 00:29:32,775 --> 00:29:34,395 I think this is one of those things where this sounds like 955 00:29:34,395 --> 00:29:39,435 kind of a, a lofty conversation, like this very high sy I wanna 956 00:29:39,435 --> 00:29:40,995 point out that it's not right. 957 00:29:40,995 --> 00:29:44,565 The, the, the reason that we have been able to maintain this. 958 00:29:45,044 --> 00:29:47,235 Yes, there were some very big decisions that were made or, 959 00:29:47,235 --> 00:29:49,784 or things that we said, big things that we said no to, but 960 00:29:49,784 --> 00:29:52,485 it was as much a collection of the, the, the small things. 961 00:29:52,485 --> 00:29:54,014 'cause I think that's, again, it, it's death 962 00:29:54,014 --> 00:29:54,824 by a thousand cuts. 963 00:29:54,824 --> 00:29:56,504 You, you let one little thing go, another little thing, 964 00:29:56,504 --> 00:29:57,284 go another little thing, go. 965 00:29:57,284 --> 00:30:00,465 Pretty soon you've got a, a metric ton of those little 966 00:30:00,465 --> 00:30:02,475 things that are, that are now weighing you down. 967 00:30:02,985 --> 00:30:05,235 And so it was, it was simple little stuff. 968 00:30:05,415 --> 00:30:08,235 It's saying no to a customer category, right? 969 00:30:08,235 --> 00:30:11,415 It was going to our sales team and saying, Hey, going forward 970 00:30:11,685 --> 00:30:13,245 when clients present this way. 971 00:30:13,665 --> 00:30:15,735 They're not great fits for what we're doing, right. 972 00:30:15,735 --> 00:30:17,745 They're not gonna get what they want from us. 973 00:30:17,745 --> 00:30:19,605 We're not going to be able to satisfy them. 974 00:30:19,605 --> 00:30:21,435 It's gonna end poorly, let's say no to that. 975 00:30:21,585 --> 00:30:21,915 Right? 976 00:30:21,915 --> 00:30:23,595 And, and of course sales team's gonna come back and 977 00:30:23,595 --> 00:30:24,555 say, but that's revenue. 978 00:30:24,555 --> 00:30:27,465 And we're gonna go, yeah, but it, it costs 979 00:30:27,465 --> 00:30:28,605 us more than it makes us. 980 00:30:29,085 --> 00:30:31,545 And so it's little decisions like that which seem, you 981 00:30:31,545 --> 00:30:33,255 know, not that they're inconsequential, but 982 00:30:33,255 --> 00:30:34,455 these aren't things like. 983 00:30:34,755 --> 00:30:37,545 We're going to completely change company culture or 984 00:30:37,545 --> 00:30:39,585 we're we are going to go raise funds or we're going to not 985 00:30:39,585 --> 00:30:42,555 raise funds, which are big, big, big decisions, right? 986 00:30:42,555 --> 00:30:45,585 Something as small as saying, you know, we're gonna say no 987 00:30:45,585 --> 00:30:47,685 to this particular type of client in the future doesn't 988 00:30:47,685 --> 00:30:50,865 seem that big, but these are the little decisions that stack 989 00:30:50,895 --> 00:30:55,340 up into quality over just pure size and keep founders sane 990 00:30:55,340 --> 00:30:56,180 and happy through the process. 991 00:30:56,895 --> 00:30:57,585 It snowballs 992 00:30:57,585 --> 00:30:58,365 both directions. 993 00:30:58,485 --> 00:31:01,245 It snowballs like you're saying, when you make a decision like, 994 00:31:01,275 --> 00:31:04,065 uh, that goes against your, your values or your goals or 995 00:31:04,065 --> 00:31:05,205 you know, what makes you better. 996 00:31:05,655 --> 00:31:08,445 And it snowballs when you're willing to pony 997 00:31:08,445 --> 00:31:09,945 up and say, fuck it. 998 00:31:10,005 --> 00:31:12,765 I understand this would make us bigger in some way, you 999 00:31:12,765 --> 00:31:15,195 know, and maybe more money, but I just don't want to do it. 1000 00:31:15,285 --> 00:31:18,195 Great example, for those of you that have been listening to 1001 00:31:18,195 --> 00:31:20,325 this show for a very long time. 1002 00:31:20,950 --> 00:31:22,240 Ryan, how many episodes do we have? 1003 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:23,139 At least 300. 1004 00:31:23,290 --> 00:31:27,670 This is, uh, we are currently recording three 18 or 19. 1005 00:31:28,030 --> 00:31:28,360 Damn. 1006 00:31:28,389 --> 00:31:28,629 Okay. 1007 00:31:28,629 --> 00:31:30,310 So the fact that I don't even know, it's a hell 1008 00:31:30,310 --> 00:31:30,910 of a lot of episodes. 1009 00:31:31,180 --> 00:31:31,240 Yeah. 1010 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:32,350 Fun fact for everybody. 1011 00:31:32,740 --> 00:31:34,480 How many guests have we had on this show? 1012 00:31:34,780 --> 00:31:37,389 How many guests have we, I think two. 1013 00:31:38,130 --> 00:31:40,335 Okay, so, so if we only here back the archives. 1014 00:31:40,335 --> 00:31:40,735 I was here, we 1015 00:31:40,735 --> 00:31:42,390 brought in a guest while I was out once and then 1016 00:31:42,390 --> 00:31:43,380 I've never left again. 1017 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:43,830 Yeah. 1018 00:31:44,970 --> 00:31:48,660 So, uh, in the early, early days, and this was good advice, 1019 00:31:48,660 --> 00:31:51,090 it was sound advice, uh, people would say to us, in order 1020 00:31:51,090 --> 00:31:51,775 to make your show bigger. 1021 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:53,580 You need to have guests. 1022 00:31:53,670 --> 00:31:54,450 You gotta have guests. 1023 00:31:54,450 --> 00:31:54,460 Yep. 1024 00:31:54,460 --> 00:31:54,675 Gotta have guests. 1025 00:31:54,775 --> 00:31:55,440 And, and they're right. 1026 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:57,090 It's actually, it's entirely true. 1027 00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:57,390 Right. 1028 00:31:57,390 --> 00:31:58,080 It's a massive growth 1029 00:31:58,080 --> 00:31:58,740 strategy for podcasts. 1030 00:31:58,740 --> 00:32:00,990 So I remember years ago, in the early days, we 1031 00:32:00,990 --> 00:32:02,040 brought on Steve Blank. 1032 00:32:02,190 --> 00:32:03,690 Remember when we had Steve on Right. 1033 00:32:03,690 --> 00:32:05,580 Very well known entrepreneur, I remember. 1034 00:32:05,790 --> 00:32:06,030 Yes. 1035 00:32:06,090 --> 00:32:06,240 Yeah. 1036 00:32:08,220 --> 00:32:11,220 And Steve had a show where he let us talk from time to time 1037 00:32:11,610 --> 00:32:14,430 and, and, and we were allowed to chime in on Steve's show 1038 00:32:14,430 --> 00:32:16,050 that, that, uh, that we hosted. 1039 00:32:16,380 --> 00:32:16,500 Yep. 1040 00:32:16,530 --> 00:32:17,490 And it went horrib. 1041 00:32:17,540 --> 00:32:19,760 And ho most words I said in that 1042 00:32:20,065 --> 00:32:22,460 was, was in the outro that I recorded separately 1043 00:32:22,460 --> 00:32:23,629 after the episode was over. 1044 00:32:23,750 --> 00:32:25,159 That was the most, I talked in the entire, 1045 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:28,700 and, and so, and we had great guests. 1046 00:32:28,700 --> 00:32:30,680 I remember we had, um, Sam Parr, right? 1047 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:32,000 You know, Sam's actually, you know, gone on to 1048 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,460 create a wildly successful, uh, podcasting career. 1049 00:32:34,700 --> 00:32:37,310 And we got on and Sam's a great guy and clearly he's 1050 00:32:37,310 --> 00:32:40,159 a, he's a great guest, but it didn't feel like our show. 1051 00:32:40,830 --> 00:32:41,050 It. 1052 00:32:41,054 --> 00:32:44,054 It felt like a guest on someone else's show. 1053 00:32:45,074 --> 00:32:49,875 And so we made a decision 300 episodes ago, right? 1054 00:32:50,445 --> 00:32:51,885 That we weren't gonna have guests. 1055 00:32:52,274 --> 00:32:55,274 And I'm sure it cost us a gazillion views and 1056 00:32:55,274 --> 00:32:56,475 followers, et cetera. 1057 00:32:56,745 --> 00:32:57,645 But guess what? 1058 00:32:57,915 --> 00:32:58,814 We don't like that show. 1059 00:32:59,084 --> 00:32:59,550 We don't like that show. 1060 00:32:59,550 --> 00:33:00,165 We don't like a show. 1061 00:33:00,225 --> 00:33:01,050 We like this show a lot. 1062 00:33:01,995 --> 00:33:02,504 What's that? 1063 00:33:02,775 --> 00:33:04,065 I said, we like this show a lot. 1064 00:33:04,335 --> 00:33:05,205 We like this show a lot. 1065 00:33:05,205 --> 00:33:07,395 Like, like the, the reason this show doesn't have guests, 1066 00:33:07,545 --> 00:33:10,605 and by the way, Ryan, how many emails do we get per day 1067 00:33:11,235 --> 00:33:13,155 of people pitching a guest? 1068 00:33:13,665 --> 00:33:15,555 We might get more email pitches. 1069 00:33:15,555 --> 00:33:16,665 Five and seven for our show. 1070 00:33:16,965 --> 00:33:17,025 Yeah. 1071 00:33:17,025 --> 00:33:18,045 Than we even have listeners. 1072 00:33:18,465 --> 00:33:18,645 Yeah. 1073 00:33:20,925 --> 00:33:21,254 Right. 1074 00:33:21,254 --> 00:33:21,555 It's 1075 00:33:21,555 --> 00:33:22,155 unbelievable. 1076 00:33:22,155 --> 00:33:22,275 They all 1077 00:33:22,275 --> 00:33:24,285 pretend that they listen to the podcast though. 1078 00:33:24,345 --> 00:33:25,215 'cause they'll, they'll, yeah. 1079 00:33:25,455 --> 00:33:28,335 Maybe those AI generated reference about, you know. 1080 00:33:28,950 --> 00:33:29,340 Whatever. 1081 00:33:29,340 --> 00:33:30,960 I love it when those go wrong too. 1082 00:33:30,965 --> 00:33:31,290 Right, right. 1083 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:33,720 The episode you guys did talking about the, the 1084 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:36,510 price of insulin and you're like, we've never done an 1085 00:33:36,510 --> 00:33:37,530 episode talking about the 1086 00:33:37,530 --> 00:33:37,680 price. 1087 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:37,740 Yeah. 1088 00:33:37,740 --> 00:33:39,120 I was like, shoot, I love to listen, uh, 1089 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:39,780 hear about that episode. 1090 00:33:39,780 --> 00:33:40,050 Anyway. 1091 00:33:40,395 --> 00:33:42,855 The point is we made a decision for quality. 1092 00:33:43,125 --> 00:33:43,725 The quality. 1093 00:33:43,725 --> 00:33:46,395 This is the show that Ryan and I want to do. 1094 00:33:46,455 --> 00:33:47,655 What, what you're hearing. 1095 00:33:47,895 --> 00:33:49,965 Our show has no strategy to it. 1096 00:33:49,965 --> 00:33:51,615 And, and when I say that I'm, I'm being callous. 1097 00:33:51,825 --> 00:33:54,375 It's not that we don't think that like, you know, founders 1098 00:33:54,375 --> 00:33:56,295 will, will listen to what we do and maybe you want to use 1099 00:33:56,295 --> 00:33:58,935 startups.com that has, you know, some commercial purpose. 1100 00:33:59,235 --> 00:34:02,265 If that's all we were optimizing for, if we were going purely 1101 00:34:02,265 --> 00:34:05,625 for growth, this would be a way different podcast. 1102 00:34:05,715 --> 00:34:06,045 Right. 1103 00:34:06,465 --> 00:34:08,235 This is the podcast is what it is. 1104 00:34:08,235 --> 00:34:10,005 'cause what Ryan and I enjoy doing, we just like 1105 00:34:10,005 --> 00:34:11,955 enjoy getting on here and just like bullshitting 1106 00:34:11,955 --> 00:34:12,824 about whatever topic. 1107 00:34:13,155 --> 00:34:14,534 And we know it's useful to founders. 1108 00:34:14,595 --> 00:34:15,885 We know it's helpful to founders. 1109 00:34:16,005 --> 00:34:16,335 Right. 1110 00:34:16,395 --> 00:34:19,545 Is it, is it the, is it the fastest moving marketing engine? 1111 00:34:19,574 --> 00:34:21,405 No, but that's not what we tried to build. 1112 00:34:21,405 --> 00:34:23,475 We tried to build something that would be intimate. 1113 00:34:23,955 --> 00:34:26,804 Useful for founders and that was all Exactly. 1114 00:34:26,985 --> 00:34:29,985 And I think that leverage, if that we have over our 1115 00:34:29,985 --> 00:34:32,505 own decisions where we say, yes, this could be 1116 00:34:32,505 --> 00:34:34,125 bigger, but it's not us. 1117 00:34:34,185 --> 00:34:36,134 Like it, it, it would reduce our quality. 1118 00:34:36,404 --> 00:34:38,895 Yes, we could scale faster if we raised a whole bunch of 1119 00:34:38,895 --> 00:34:41,235 money, but we wouldn't wanna wake up in the morning and, 1120 00:34:41,235 --> 00:34:42,770 and have to worry about the phone call that we're getting. 1121 00:34:43,574 --> 00:34:45,975 Like there's a lot of things we could do, and I'm not 1122 00:34:45,975 --> 00:34:47,084 saying we hate growth. 1123 00:34:47,084 --> 00:34:49,875 We love growth, but we love growth on our own terms. 1124 00:34:49,935 --> 00:34:52,064 And I think for a lot of people that are out there when they're 1125 00:34:52,064 --> 00:34:55,334 thinking about getting bigger, it's not about getting bigger, 1126 00:34:55,514 --> 00:34:58,154 it's about getting better and getting better is about 1127 00:34:58,154 --> 00:35:00,915 sticking to what your terms are and making that decision. 1128 00:35:00,975 --> 00:35:04,455 Every single day that the most important thing is what's 1129 00:35:04,455 --> 00:35:06,975 gonna make you the best company possible and a better, uh, 1130 00:35:06,975 --> 00:35:10,305 person and founder in sticking to that the entire way in 1131 00:35:10,305 --> 00:35:11,595 saying, this is who we are. 1132 00:35:11,654 --> 00:35:15,134 This is what we do in making no exceptions ever. 1133 00:35:16,590 --> 00:35:18,420 Overthinking your startup because you're going it alone. 1134 00:35:18,810 --> 00:35:21,720 You don't have to, and honestly, you shouldn't because instead, 1135 00:35:21,720 --> 00:35:24,840 you can learn directly from peers who've been in your shoes. 1136 00:35:24,900 --> 00:35:27,240 Connect with bootstrap founders and the advisors 1137 00:35:27,240 --> 00:35:29,670 helping them win in the startups.com community. 1138 00:35:29,820 --> 00:35:34,470 Check out the startups.com community@www.startups.com 1139 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:35,490 to see if it's for you. 1140 00:35:35,700 --> 00:35:36,779 Could be just the thing you need. 1141 00:35:36,990 --> 00:35:37,980 I hope to see you inside.