W. Earl Brown

We talk to writer and star of Deadwood, W. Earl Brown!

Show Notes

Intro: Dinosaurs, collaboration, chickens:roost
Let Me Run This By You: Teal Swan
Interview: We talk to W. Earl Brown about Deadwood, A View From the Bridge, Kentucky, family trauma, Dr. Bella Itkin, Don DePallo, Chris Farley, Wes Craven, David Milch, Gretchen Rennell, Leo Burmester, There's Something About Mary, It's Cold in Them Thar Hills, Hamlet, The Imaginary Invalid, That Championship Season, Amy Pietz, George Czarnecki, transcendence in the theater, Waltz of the Toreadors, Stanislavski, depression, Scream, John C. Reilly.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited): 
2 (10s):
And I'm Gina Pulice.

1 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand.

2 (15s):
At 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.

1 (21s):
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? Oh my God. You get my name. Okay. So, okay. So

2 (37s):
Wait, wait, wait, hang on before you, I just want to say about dinosaurs. I have to give a shout out to somebody that I know. I, I, I know a man named Larry Greeley. Who's I'm not sure how old he is, but he's older than me by a lot. And he just decided one day that he was never going to stop keeping pace with technology because he did not want to be behind the times. And so he's one of these elderly people who you don't have to worry like, but do you have email? He stays on top of it. And also he stays on top of how the culture is changing and he, he adapts and that's like, I'm not saying that's easy to do, but it's so necessary.

2 (1m 22s):
And I'm

1 (1m 22s):
Grateful for people

2 (1m 24s):
Who, who don't become dinosaurs, but it go ahead.

1 (1m 27s):
No, that's exactly it. You, you choose and you and I talk about this all the time. Is it raining there?

2 (1m 36s):
No.

1 (1m 36s):
No. Oh, I hear, I hear tapping. Okay.

2 (1m 41s):
Hmm.

1 (1m 42s):
But it actually sounds really nice anyway.

2 (1m 45s):
Oh

1 (1m 45s):
Yeah. I kinda like it

2 (1m 46s):
Actually actually let me turn it off when I'm editing,

1 (1m 51s):
It sounds like the rain, but it's not, and you'll know, so, okay. And that'll know the shit out of you. Okay. So you said it and you know, to podcast listeners sometimes before the, the talking, we have a talk. And so I, we can say all the things in the names, but suffice it to say, we were just talking about how yes we do the work. It is hard work. It's hard when people call you on your shit. And when you, and when, or when I have to realize, oh, I am using terms that are offensive. And I am disconnecting from the people that I am are in my life. That is not okay with me. How do I adapt? It's very fucking hard. I've spent a lot of money and time in therapy, doing it for my own personal growth work about my family.

1 (2m 36s):
I've spent a lot of time with my husband doing it. It's not easy, but here's the thing. Like, I think it's the only way to live and to not feel obsolete and not feel left behind. So I like to say to like, you know, I know it's adapt or die, but for me, it's like collaborate or fucking die

2 (2m 56s):
A men speak on it. And I, I'm always so surprised that like in this field, which I just feel it's so obviously meant to be collaborative. Like I just don't know. What's the big surprise here. Y Y you know, I was saying to my husband, like why as the student, or as a school, go through all of the effort that it takes to go through this to ostensibly be able to snap into an ensemble, to a group, and then lead people to believe that they're alone in having graduated and not having success immediately or deciding, you know, you want to further refine what your idea is of being an artist.

2 (3m 43s):
I mean, there's absolutely, it's, it's, I'll go so far as to say it's unconscionable that the schools, would it set you up for that in such a way that you felt like you were because also PS, it's great PR for you as a school when everybody can say, oh, not only is it a great program, prestigious, whatever, but going there gives you entree into a community that's like robust and happening. And

1 (4m 10s):
Yeah. I mean, I think that what we have here is a re and we talk about this on the podcast, a reckoning, a forced reckoning, where you've got people saying, Hey, if you don't change you're out. But then the other part of that is how do we, or people in power positions or positions where they do sort of can implement change? How do you help people change? That is the, and you and I are therapists, former therapist. So we know the challenges of helping people change and we're fucking equipped.

1 (4m 51s):
And it's hard. So it is so hard because what they feel like is that they're going to die. If they have to change and a part of them will die, but, and it's really scary and nobody likes it. And I, you know, I will tell, and I've told this story before about my mom, you know, sitting with her, she could not access sadness. She could access anger, accessing sadness to her apparently was like admitting horrible things. Right. And that horrible things probably have been done to her and that she had done horrible things. So we're sitting at this restaurant crossroads on Chicago avenue after my dad died. And I just said to her, you look so sad and it no judgment.

1 (5m 34s):
I mean, I was sad. I was crying all the time. I said, you look so sad. I'm so sorry. And she slammed her glass down in front of everybody at the restaurant. And like almost broke. Thank God. It didn't break. She wouldn't hurt herself. And she said, I screamed almost. I think it was like almost a scream. I am not sad. I'm angry. And then walked out of the restaurant. And I thought, holy shit, this woman educated with it. Hip funny in therapy, all the things boats, right. To public, you know, like Democrat, like fucking, I cannot admit that. She said, how do we expect white, old men to admit that they are, that they need to change.

2 (6m 23s):
That, that at that time is over now and run a new time. I so appreciated what Dave does. Small Shan said in the video that you sent me, that was the video that you procured to send to your students so that they had some words of, it was almost like a commencement speech. But anyway, what he said in it at the end was if you have any, he was talking specifically about substance abuse, which is obviously a huge, important thing, but I'll just expand it to say, if you have demons right. Start working on it, now don't wait. Don't think you're going to be a better actor because you're tortured.

2 (7m 3s):
And I promise you, if you start working on yourself now, not only will you be a better actor, but you'll be a person that people are excited to work with because nobody actually really likes an asshole, even if that makes them a really good actor. And, and, and it's kind of like the same approach. If you keep a place clean, you don't have to kill yourself to get it clean. Once a year. If you keep working on yourself, you don't have to overhaul your entire life and personality. You know what, just, when you get called to the carpet, like it can just be a maintenance, like a daily maintenance thing. It doesn't need to be this

1 (7m 40s):
Right. It's so, well, yeah. I mean, you can take that and blow it out. Like, look at our country, look at our, I mean, like we're, oh, you don't have to wait for a civil war inside yourself. Like you really don't. But if that's what it takes, I guess that's what it takes a part of me too, is like, you know, for, for, I hope it doesn't take that, but it might because there's only, also so many chances we're given to get it together. And then people, the universe, whoever you believe in, some shit goes down and you're like, oh, chickens, roost, chickens. It just all comes down to that. I'm like, are you kidding me?

1 (8m 21s):
That you don't. And also, like, I think when people say like, it's a small world, what they mean is both. It's true. That, and, and, and T, and I were saying yesterday that like, before you do some shady shit, okay. Before we do some shady shit check to see who's on whose friends list, that's the other thing, like, do a little research because every guaran, fucking T people know each other. And I don't even mean, like they know each other and, and, and good news travels really fast as does badness. Right. So just know that, like, you know, I, I don't know.

2 (9m 5s):
And be careful how you blind copy.

1 (9m 12s):
Let me run this by you.

2 (9m 20s):
Let's talk about teal, motherfucking swine as you call it.

1 (9m 24s):
I teel swine. Yeah. Teal swine. I couldn't remember. So I said to, okay, this is someone who is an actor. Okay. So I,

2 (9m 40s):
When did you first know about her? Cause I first learned about her on Friday.

1 (9m 43s):
I first heard about her like maybe three weeks ago I saw, okay. I saw the, the, the, the trailer for her, for the documentary when she gave me the password for thank you. I saw the trailer and I was like, oh, no, another one. What the fuck, man? And then I was like, okay, well, let me go see the ship for free somewhere. And I went on Amazon prime and on Amazon, then that took me down the fucking rabbit hole of the real, like, like promo videos for her. So she has a series of movies about her that are made by, by followers and fans that are like self-help videos.

1 (10m 24s):
And I was like, cause I let me watch these shits for free on prime. Okay. I mean, do you know if we wanted to, I think we're too, we're too, it's too late now. But we, we could have done an experiment where we did that, where we became that one of us decided to become a guru and, and curate that. And that is what I'm fascinated by, but she's, she's, she reminds me a little bit of my fantasy of what I think of when I think of your sister in terms of someone who is so beautiful to look at, I mean, she's beautiful at

2 (11m 5s):
Bonneau, complete garbage on the inside

1 (11m 8s):
And also knows exactly what she's doing.

2 (11m 13s):
Hey, Zach, <inaudible> what she's doing. And that, that's the thing that, so listen, you never can go wrong trying to make money off of people's suffering. That is just the easiest thing in the world to do tell a group of people, these things that they can interpret to be personal to them, but are really just, you know, general to humanity. You don't think you're good enough. You wonder if people really love you. I mean, it's like, there's nobody almost, except for these people who become these gurus, these megalomaniacs, there's nobody who couldn't be convinced that. Yeah, I do whatever, feel badly about myself and have been treated that by the way, did you know her real name is her teal Bosworth.

2 (11m 58s):
Okay. So I was in it at the beginning when she was talking. Cause I didn't, I didn't know

1 (12m 8s):
Necessarily

2 (12m 9s):
That it was a color.

1 (12m 11s):
I

2 (12m 11s):
Just saw the thing and it looked interesting. So I clicked on it or no, actually I had heard somebody mentioned it on a podcast and say, I'm not going to say anything else about it. Just look up this documentary. So in one of the first, in the first episode, she says, listen, women don't have examples of other women following their passion. So when ever somebody is doing it, it feels like they're charting the path for themselves. And I just was like, yes, that is so true. We have lots of examples of women who have to compromise and make sacrifices, but we don't have a ton of examples of somebody saying like, Hey, this is what I'm about.

2 (12m 51s):
And I'm going to go for it. And I'm like the dream big kind of dreams I was with it for that. But where did you

1 (13m 0s):
Go?

2 (13m 1s):
Well, she calls her followers lost toys, which says to me a, you know, they're lost cause lost is the people who you can lead into a cult and toys, meaning they're your toys. They're obstacles that you toy with and get to believe absolutely anything you want to get them to believe. And because she's so good at it, she has all of this charm. See, I could never be a cult leader. You just, you could, you have to have charisma. You have to have this thing that people, you know, are drawn to you about. You use your charisma for good. But if you were born differently or you had a slightly, I don't know, I don't know the factors that would have made.

1 (13m 46s):
I feel like I'd have to be skinny. Let's let's start there, but go ahead. If I was born skinny, like that would be good. Okay. Go ahead.

2 (13m 53s):
Another great question is like when she be where she is, if she weren't beautiful,

1 (13m 57s):
Probably in a white or whatever,

2 (13m 59s):
But as you know, and it will say to our listeners, we're, we're writing a television series about a female con artists cult leader. And I had to kind of laugh like, well, Ryan, we don't have very few. We don't have very good examples of women calling there's when you just don't hear a lot about women leading cults, you hear a lot about the woman behind the man leading the call, like in wild, wild country,

1 (14m 26s):
Who takes the fall for the guy really?

2 (14m 28s):
Right. And actually I was wondering, like, not to say that people don't question the Eckert totally is. And the Tom re Tim Robbins, not Tim Robbins,

1 (14m 40s):
Tony Robbins,

2 (14m 41s):
Tony Robbins. Yeah. I don't feel that those people necessarily get dragged through the mud. And the way that later I found out how people dragging this one and not to say she doesn't need to be dragged through the mud because she does. I just ultimately thought it was so dangerous. I felt so frightened for the vulnerable people in the room. I felt frightened when they were co therapizing. Each other, I felt frightened when, you know, somebody says, oh, when I was acting the role of your father, I felt I was abusing you. Like, it's just so dangerous. And, and then it got this combination of like comically funny and just tragically weird.

2 (15m 27s):
When her assistant says, let me just get into the bathtub with my dress on, because I feel most comfortable in water and proceeds to tell a story about how her, the adults at a party at her parents' house, put all the kids on top of the barbecue. I'm just going like, wait, that doesn't even what

1 (15m 50s):
It's not even, it's not even, it's like psychotic.

2 (15m 54s):
I'm not one of them it's psychotic. Correct. And actually that the look in her, I thought, okay, she's psychotic. So now this woman is in charge of controlling a bunch of psychotic people. And I believe she's. And then I read also later in Reddit that she, her, she had a therapist in the two thousands. That was part of the satanic panic thing of when, you know, or like late nineties when this whole thing about

1 (16m 18s):
The child memories.

2 (16m 20s):
Yeah. And people, the therapists were implanting memories that people, you know, because people are suggestible. And so that was her therapist. So that, that made a lot of more, a lot more sense. But there was such a poetic moment, this man that she's hoodwinked to do everything for her. Who's in love with her, but who she doesn't return. The love to this man is looking at his goldfish and a goldfish tank. And he says, I love them. But they're in a tiny little world that never changes, which is exactly what he is in a tiny little world that never changes. And then when she compared herself to the Dalai Lama, I just thought, okay, well we're all done here because the thing is, the minute somebody thinks of themselves in that way, you know, that's, I could get with the CRA, you know, it's like, oh, you're these messages are sort of empowering.

2 (17m 16s):
Like I can kind of go there, but then there's always that thing that they do. Right.

1 (17m 21s):
So, so my, my, oh, and I find this more and more, now that we're getting into like crazy land in 2022 of who believes what? Okay. So I, yes, there is always, you you've got me. You've got me. You've got me. Like, I can get into the beauty. I'm like seduced by beauty. Just like everybody else. I'm seduced by come as you are lingo. I'm seduced by all of it. I, you got me. If you tell me I can come as I am, that I'm that you're and you're beautiful. And that we're, there's going to be a promise of community I'm in. Right.

1 (18m 1s):
So, so I was working here on a Saturday and I was talking to, there's a guy in my office space. That's running for Congress. Okay. Okay. Great. Talking to him, fucking dope guy. Talking about climate crisis. Loved it, loved it. I'm like I'm all in. Then he says, and do you know, like we're all undermine control. And that the thing in Texas that happened, that guy who killed everybody was under CIA mind control. And he was actually the biological father of the kids he killed. This is I. So there's a left turn that go. And I, I hate that because what actually are you doing?

1 (18m 44s):
You've just hoodwinked me. And now you're talking about something totally psychotic. Like totally was it it's conspiracy theory, but times a thousand. So we're at this place now where there's a mix and he's a member of the green party. So there's a mix of self-help meets Bernie bros meets

2 (19m 7s):
Anti-vaxxer

1 (19m 8s):
Trumpites meets anti-vaxxers. And this guy is also like anti-gun loss. He's a green party. Anti-gun so what we're getting now is he sounds really good. I'm talking to him at the beginning about the climate. Like I'm all in. I'm like, dude, I'm trying to do my part. I'm like doing these things. He's like, you're amazing. You're a tree hugger. I love it. We're going to change the world. And then he says that about that, that, that the guy is the biological father of the killed children and killed.

2 (19m 36s):
I know we can't pass universal background checks for gun ownership, but could we do it for people who are running for public office? Could we have a psychological test or a background test? You know, like there should be a bar right now in the bar for running for offices that you have to be able to have or raise money so that you can run for office. That's pretty much, oh, you have to. And not in all cases, but in many cases you have to be a United States born citizen.

1 (20m 6s):
I don't think you can have the felony. Maybe. I don't know.

2 (20m 9s):
But like, what about if you're truly psychotic? Because here's the, here's the overlap with teal Swan. Like you gotta be charismatic to be a politician. And you know, speaking of politicians, I recently discovered that this guy I had slept with when I lived in California, was the mayor of Charlottesville. When that whole shit went down in Charlottesville, I, I just randomly was like, remembering this time that I, he was a nice guy. He didn't do anything wrong. Let me preface it by saying that. But it, it, I thought about this memory differently 20 years later, which is that we were at my apartment, we'd had sex conscious sleep.

2 (20m 56s):
And when I woke up, he said really was debating about whether or not I should have sex with you while you were asleep. And I was like, oh

1 (21m 6s):
My God.

2 (21m 8s):
And I said, well, I'm so glad you did it because just FYI, I would not have liked to wake up to you. Fucking me. Thanks. I was, I had that memory. I was like, oh, I wonder whatever happened to that guy. I go Google it. But he was the mayor of Chicago. He said, I think he has aspirations of being a Barack Obama type. He,

1 (21m 30s):
Oh, I was like, well,

2 (21m 32s):
He's like I met Emily. He was getting his PhD at Berkeley. I was like, cause credibly smart guy. But

1 (21m 40s):
Let me tell you something, wait, whoa.

2 (21m 43s):
Right.

1 (21m 43s):
What is even happening? You know that you've got,

2 (21m 48s):
I have to get, you really fired up to like, want to meet everybody in America and get them to vote for you. That's just a skill that not all of us have and, and what really gets in the way of having that skills. But then you have a lot of empathy for other people, right. Then that's just so exhausting and she can't mobilize.

1 (22m 5s):
No, that's what I'm saying. Like, listen, I would do it, but like, I can't even go to a fucking meet and greet without feeling afterwards. Like I have to sleep for like four days and like, I can't get it together the next day. So like, who are these machines that can, what is happening? So I, I hear you. And I just think, I mean, I don't know we need, I mean, it always comes down to it, but like, I think we, I mean, people think that, you know, miles hates it when I see this, but I have to be honest, like, I think we're headed for some kind of civil war in this country.

2 (22m 36s):
Well, yeah. I'm sorry. I'm two miles, but we absolutely are.

1 (22m 40s):
I mean,

2 (22m 42s):
We're truly, really in it. Yeah. And hopefully the north will provide those.

1 (22m 49s):
Well, the thing is miles was cause miles came home and he was, my husband was like, do you know that like a lot of people, these extremists are still fighting the civil war. I said, yeah. I said, yeah. And also we're headed for like a major conflict on our own soil, a violent one that started in like January six, you know, trials are about to start. None of them are going to jail.

2 (23m 9s):
Don't even make me read this

1 (23m 11s):
Don't bother. Yeah. It's not going to happen. So we, I think that's it to bring it back to like institutions and things. Like, we cannot expect things to stay the same. If you have people that are wildly unhappy, angry, needing, not being heard on both sides, I don't care what side you're on. You can't get, something's gotta give and like chickens and roost. And so it was like, how do we want to look at change and how do we want it? But you know, regardless of that, if a majority of people are pissed off and want, don't want the thing, there's going to be a fucking reaction to it.

1 (23m 57s):
And sometimes it's very violent. And so I don't like it, but I am also not look, capitalism is not working for us. It's not working for, I looked at Hollywood last night. Right. And I were where the thing was, and the amount of houseless people and the amount of people not getting their needs met. And I thought, this is, we cannot, I am not a dumb enough or whatever enough to know that this is not leading somewhere. This is leading somewhere.

2 (24m 29s):
Right, right. Right. The part in the movie where everybody goes, oh, maybe it was that. And that, and that, and that, that led to us being here. Like people seem to not realize it until they're at, until the gunman is in the building. Right.

1 (24m 42s):
Right. And, and, and I, and it's, it's, it's sort of like, yeah, like in you, and I know this it's like what Dave does. Motion said, work on your shit as you go along at one time. And I, you know, because I used to think that denial was awesome, right? Like one of those people that could be in denial, I loved them. I wanted to be them until my friend Edna bless her heart said, no, no, no. Denial is you wake up on your couch 10 years later and you're suicidal or homicidal. And you don't know how you got there and that's legitimate. And I thought, oh, oh no, no. Oh no, no. And that's where we're headed your

2 (25m 18s):
Yeah. General. Like, I feel almost every problem we face is exemplified by this gun thing. Like, oh, I literally every single person in America will have to have known somebody who died in a mass shooting. Okay. I guess that's what it is. I guess that's what it is for the people who are not convinced. They have to personally know somebody who died in a mass shooting today on the podcast. We are talking to w Earl brown w Earl brown is an actor he's been in everything.

2 (25m 58s):
He's got credits as an actor or a writer or a producer. You know him from, there's something about Mary, you know him from Deadwood, you know him from he's currently on hat's fantastic television show. Anyway, he's warm and delightful, and he's a great storyteller. So please enjoy our conversation with w Earl brown. Congratulations, Earl brown. You survived theater school and you survived our very theater school. But before I think just right slightly before us,

3 (26m 31s):
I was, I finished, I was there 86 to 89 MFA.

2 (26m 36s):
Oh yeah. MFA. Okay. So you had already gone, but was your undergrad

3 (26m 41s):
Well, sort of by default, I started taking so many classes that I could stay an extra semester and get a theater degree. So I did I double majored. Yes.

1 (26m 51s):
Smart.

3 (26m 53s):
That was just the way to stay in college for a full fifth year.

1 (26m 56s):
Yeah. Is that well? Yeah. A lot of people did that, you know, by accident at our school, I met him. I met a guy in my DePaul, gen EDS who had been there seven years and I was like the seven year plan. I was like, oh, but now I get it. Like, look, that would look a great way to postpone adulthood. Anyway, Earl, thank you for joining us. You're you? You are. I would say what I said was, and I asked Earl if I could say this, but like the consummate character actor worked works in. Everything has forever. Not that you're old, but I'm saying you're prolific as an actor and memorable in every single thing.

1 (27m 37s):
I I'm serious. I don't say that often. I met, remember you from things you've never, I've never heard it. So I was just talking to my husband about it. I was like, this guy is in everything and Deadwood all of the, and it's always memorable. So good for you. How, how does it feel like theater school works on you? How does it feel? Like, I mean, cause some people are like, don't call me a character actor. I'm like, okay. But that to me is cool. But to some people, I guess, I don't know. So I guess just thoughts on being called a consummate character actor.

3 (28m 11s):
Well, I mean, just, I'm very proud of that. I mean, I always knew I, and that was my goal. My, I mean, I had life goals when I was in school. My goal, when I decided to do this, when I decided to move to big city of Chicago and go to theater school, I mean, I come from a blue collar. Yeah, man. Rural background. So I was the first of my family to ever move away. So to say that I was going to move to Chicago to become an actor, you know, I may as well set, I was going to move to Mars to grow popcorn because that's how much sense it seemed to make to everyone. But I, when I started there, my goal was always set. I want to have a comfortable life doing what I want to do, doing the things that I love.

3 (28m 56s):
I wanted to be able to raise a family and live comfortably. And how do I do that? Well, TV, my TV and movie, those were what made me want to be actors or be an actor, you know, animal house, Halloween star wars, my freshman year of high school. Those were the ones where I'm like, oh my God, I would, how could I, I would want, you know, so that was my goal. And I, I like, where do I fit in? How, how am I going to get my foot in the door? What's my career. What am I struck my strengths? And so that was always the goal

1 (29m 29s):
Earl here's my, my thing is that sounds so like, not like a, a kid. How did you get, where was your family? Like super, even though they thought maybe you were going to go sell on Mars, like did, did, did, there was something inside of you that was like, I have goals. I'm going to do them. Where does that come from?

3 (29m 50s):
High school speech and debate coach Larry England.

1 (29m 54s):
Awesome. Yeah,

3 (29m 56s):
We were. I said, when I say we, my wife is from there also, and my wife now she's a, vice-president at the Disney company, but we, we had this incredible high school teacher, Larry England, who was from there himself, had graduated from that high school who taught us. He said, first of all, in life, you can be, or do anything you want to be and do as long as you're willing to pay the price for it, you've got to put in the work. You can't just wish it, you know, you've got to believe it, but you have to work for it. So Larry and he demanded, if you did not give your best, if you did not focus, you were off the team.

3 (30m 36s):
And we were state champions three of our four years. And in my group, my graduating group, the number two band that Jack Daniel's, Danny lamb, he was in my class, Mike Jackson, a senior VP at United healthcare in Boston, Kim Weatherford. He's an Oracle, I forget his title, but he's the vice-president and Lanessa. She just changed jobs. But the story is we're we're, we are all from like farming families. And there's an immense amount of career success in that group. So I think that's where mine was seated.

2 (31m 11s):
Yeah. And we, we had another person who came on, who went to a small high school who had a very passionate drama teacher and it turned out Keegan, Michael Key and Kristen bell. And all these people went there and it was, they were largely spurred by this one. Woman's passion and advocacy. So this has reminded me of two things. One is that I don't think people talk enough about discipline, the discipline that it takes to be an actor. And to, I don't think that we tell recent grads enough for people who are early career. It's, it's fun. It's fine to find a person whose career you want to emulate and try and aim for that.

2 (31m 53s):
I feel like maybe a lot of people, when they graduate, their thought is I have to be, you know, I have to create like create a new mold or something and maybe some people can do that. But the majority of working actors are able to do what you're doing fit into any given situation.

3 (32m 9s):
I mean, everybody deserves to see their lives story reflected back to them in our stories. And that runs the gamut everybody does. And, and I get how I, Leo Burmeister, I found out when I was in college and I started doing plays at Murray state. Leo was on Broadway and, and numerous things. He said he's passed away. But he was from bowling green, Kentucky. Leo was about a decade older than me from a farm. It built like me physically. We were quite similar. And when I had my graduate showcase, what was it? I think it was Gretchen Rainelle, but she was a casting exec out here. She worked for Disney at the time.

3 (32m 50s):
And she came up to me after the showcase in Chicago. And she goes, you remind me very much of a friend of mine, Leo Burmeister, like, you know, so knowing, knowing that Leo was from a background, similar to mine from a place similar to me and he did it, he was a working professional actor. Then I said, well, Hey man, I can, I can do that.

1 (33m 10s):
Which is like, what you said about representation. It really does matter. It matters across the board. It matters in terms of, for any body shape type of human. Like not just, oh, this is a white person, this is a black, this is a woman, but like particulars. And so can you imagine like, yes, it is just, it's so wonderful to know. We had someone in our class who came from a farming town, Tate, and he, and he was like a football guy and that's how he made it. And so to see him, it's like, there is room for everybody. And also your, I love that you're on the panel. I won't be there today because of many things. But like I mostly anyway, they didn't tell me where it was.

1 (33m 54s):
Oh, the panel. So there's a panel. And th the graduating show that the graduating students are in LA, some of them who are going to move to LA and there, and DePaul has a panel and Earl is on that panel at someone's private residence. And the point is, I am so glad you're on that panel one, because where you're from too, because you're, you're, you know, similar age to us, like, you're it. It's brilliant. So anyway, I'm just very grateful you're on the panel. So good. Yeah.

2 (34m 22s):
Okay. So one of the things that we talk about a lot on here is just the way the culture has really shifted generally, but specifically in theater and theater education over these last 20, 25 years, do you find yourself in the position that we find ourselves in a lot, which is when you see kind of how things are done now and you, and you compare it maybe to how things were done when you were coming up when you were early career. I mean, does, to me that the, the difference between how we were trained and what we know now about how we should have been trained and our thoughts and feelings about just the whole mill, you have the theater school.

2 (35m 8s):
Do you, do you Marvel at all about like how, how different things are now in the industry and just with respect to actor training?

3 (35m 19s):
Well, you know, my expo twofold, you know, I, when I started in theater school was the first year that we moved into our own facility, which was that old elementary school that oh, yeah,

1 (35m 32s):
Yeah,

3 (35m 33s):
Yeah. And so we had just moved into it that when, and when I auditioned, it was still the Goodman school of drama. It became the theater school, DePaul that summer. So that's where I started. And I can't really address professional theater that much now because I'm not, not, not really involved with it. I would do it, you know, if the opportunity arose and, you know, there's been a couple of things, but it just, wasn't in a place that I could afford, you know, to take those six months off to go do it. So the difference now, I think there's, there's a much wider berth of, you know, it's become Hackney to say it, but inclusion, you know, people are open to telling stories from a different viewpoint, and that wasn't necessarily the case in the past.

3 (36m 25s):
And especially in Hollywood and TV and film, you know, I was thinking about this just the other day, you know, the, the first big, wide, wide release movie that, that addressed the civil rights movement was Mississippi burning, which focused on two white FBI agents. You know, it's just the focus of a story. Like they're telling the story of what happened, but they're focusing on the white heroes. Now when that movie was released, you know, culturally, Ooh, that's brave. And that's important. And that's, well, the lens we view that from now is quite different. You know, also something that I was involved with with there's something about Mary that would probably get made today.

3 (37m 7s):
And, and that was actually written that the character of Warren was based on their next door neighbor, Warren Taishan who, and once, and it was written to be Warren. And then it was a little too much for Warren to handle. And so he ended up playing, he, he plays Freddie in the movie and then they decide Warren was a small guy. So they decided to make the visual gag that, you know, I was so much bigger than Ben Stiller, but Warren was based on a real person. And then

2 (37m 38s):
Right though, it wouldn't get made, know that, I mean, or that character wouldn't be included yeah. For what happening now.

3 (37m 43s):
Well, you know, with that, you know, here's one of my favorite things that I, one of my favorite compliments I've ever been told, I was in PA I was at a show at the Roxy here, a rock show, and this girl walks up to me between bands. And she goes, here you are, you hope brown w Robinson. Yes. So she tells me this story, her, her two brothers had down syndrome and she said, her mother wanted to see the movie. And she said, I told mom, she said I had it on VHS. And I told mom like, mom, this I don't know. And my buddy said, well, everyone's talking about it. I went. So she said, I brought my tape over to the house and we put it in, not knowing how anybody in my family would respond to it.

3 (38m 23s):
And she said, my youngest brother, the scene at the school, he walks up to the TV and he points to the team and he went, he's special. He's just like me. And so again, that's everybody deserves to have their story told. And, and the thing that with that movie, and we were very conscious of it. And that's why I got cast. They had brought in a bunch of comics and, and everybody was goofing on and making fun of the character. And the studio wanted a known name. They were trying to get a, a star in that role. But the fairies were adamant that it has to be honest, and the audience has to believe the character. So that's the way we approached it. And that's why it's successful.

3 (39m 5s):
But again, yes, that a lot of the jokes in that film would be yeah.

1 (39m 10s):
Across the board. Yeah. Yeah. I, I guess my, my, my next question for you is at the theater school, you're coming from this like speech and debate background where you, you, you all were like kicking butt at that. And then you get into this place in this weird elementary school turns theater school. Tell, tell us, like, what was your experience like at the actual theater school? What did you love it? Did you hate it? Did you, what was the, what did you think?

3 (39m 38s):
My first day, first day walking through now, I lived in a shitty apartment and a not really nice part of town. Cause that's all I could afford. Right. And I'd never lived in a city. So first of all, I'm intimidated by the city. Anyway, my first day walked through the door. Jim Osstell Hoff was what was one of our teachers and chip Grissom, the movement studios. They didn't yet have the dance floors in them, but those rooms were still there. First thing I saw coming out of the door of that, of that first movement studio is Austel hall. Well, fucking hit me, fucking hit me, motherfucker. And Chris will fuck you. Fuck you. This is a student and a teacher. And yet, yeah, you still fucking hot. Take a punch, take a swing man.

3 (40m 20s):
So hostile Hoff at punch, you know, had just needle Chet to a degree that he exploded at him and he was taunting him into a fight. You know,

2 (40m 31s):
That was his favorite thing to do. Oh, that was him also. Huff's favorite things to do.

3 (40m 37s):
What

2 (40m 38s):
Comes across to you? Like what did, what did you think of

3 (40m 41s):
Where the fuck am I? What have I gotten myself into? But, but I know damn well pushed. I'm sure I'm fighting my way out of it.

1 (40m 52s):
Yeah. I mean, there's, there's real life experience there too, where you can recognize, like, you're not it. What is this? But also there's probably some part of you that knew you could handle whatever was gonna come your way. So did you, how did it differ from what your high school mentor taught you? Like, did it take it to another level or what?

3 (41m 12s):
Well, there's there there's a stage missing in there in high school. Larry Larry was, you know, he was a speech and debate coach. He wasn't a drama teacher by any stretch and he didn't really understand, you know, that process and that mindset we just happened to ha he just made sure that we rehearsed and we did we to find our way. So Larry didn't really teach me about the, the craft or the art of things. He taught me about the determination of an attitude toward achieving those things in between. Those was a teacher at Murray state, mark Mellon osseous. And I took an acting class on a whim. I had been there for a year and I didn't know where, what I had no direction.

3 (41m 58s):
And I thought maybe I could work at the local NBC affiliate. I could be like a camera man or an editor or something, you know? So I, I had to take a theatrical experience class and it was taught by the Dean of the school. And it was a gen ed requirement. There's like 300 people. It's a big, big lecture hall. The college that Murray state had around 10,000 students. So it was pretty good sized school. So he was, you know, he, he was a big theater nut. The Dean was, and he did a segment on improvisational theater. Well, I was an SNL nut and Belushi was my hero. So I knew all about second city, all of the COMPAS, all of that.

3 (42m 40s):
And he would call students up to, to do improv and I desperately wanted to be, I wanted to, but I wouldn't stick my hand up. So I didn't, I was scared. So I thought, you know, maybe, maybe I could take an acting class. I, so I signed up for scene study the next fall. Now a little background to that. We had this guy who used to come out from Murray state and help with the drama kids he has since passed away. So I'll try to speak nicely about him, but he was immensely full of himself. You want to talk about the most pretentious actor? It would have been him. And he had spent three years in New York and had not made any ended up back in Podunk.

3 (43m 21s):
You know, I was the New York actor. So I thought with him, like, I can't do that. I can't, I'm not, you know, Hey, ah, look at him. You know? So I take this acting class thinking I'm going to be in a classroom full of skips. And everybody introduces themselves and, and talked about what plays that they had done. And it gets to me and I said, well, my name's Earl and I'm from here. I grew up like just out in the county and I've never done a play. Well, no, wait, take it back, take it back in the eighth grade, I did a class play called it's cold and in their heels and everybody laughed. They literally he'd been a comedy baby.

3 (44m 3s):
I was Paul. I was Paul and it was cold. And then there, he was seen in 75,

1 (44m 8s):
We have to make a television show. We have to make a television show of it's cold in them, there Hills with Earl as the lead. Anyway, go ahead.

3 (44m 16s):
Well, they laughed at me. Literally people were snickering and I, I was so, yeah, and I felt like, oh, oh man. And our first assignment mark gave us was a Shakespeare soliloquy pick any soliloquy from the histories, drama, any of them. And we're going to do that next week. I picked Hamlet's to be, or not to be because I knew it from Gilligan's island

1 (44m 41s):
High

3 (44m 41s):
School. And the only, the only Shakespeare I had read, we were assigned Romeo and Juliet in high school. And I did kind of read that. And then I love, they took us to the theater because hell this, this predates videotape, we got to go see zipper rally's movie. And I was so excited. Cause you got to see absolutely boobs, man. So that's the only, the only thing I knew of Shakespeare. So I knew it from Gilligan's island, I asked to be, or not to beat. So I'm like, okay, well I remember that. So I picked it. Then I said about,

1 (45m 13s):
Did you do it in a Gilligan's island tone? Did you do it in a getaway? Oh God, I'm so excited for this story.

3 (45m 19s):
So, well, no. I started to read Hamlet and you know, I was 19 years old at this point and I was kinda like, what the fuck am I going to do with my life? You know, my dad had not been murdered, but you know, all of these questions that he's asking himself about life. And then I realized like, oh my God, he's talking about shoot. He kill himself. Should I live or not live? You know? And I had had periods in my youth of very deep depression where bad thoughts crossed my mind. And I'm like, holy shit. I've had this conversation with myself. So, so it comes around time a week later to do our soliloquy. And I was toward the end. There were, there were probably eight or 10 people in the class and I, oh, I'm sorry.

3 (46m 3s):
I may have done mine early. Anyway, I did it. And then as I'm watching everybody else, I'm like, what the hell was I intimidated by him? Better than everybody.

1 (46m 15s):
I just want to say like something really, really quickly. And I'll go back to the story that is very important for me to hear is that, that you were able to relate to Hamlet, not being anywhere near time place or way of Hamlet, that there is a universal thing there obviously. And also that you were able to say two things that is really important to me because what it means is it doesn't matter where the fuck you're from. If you can relate to feeling sad or glad or horny or whatever the universal feelings are, then the shit matters. Then the shit matters across the board. Okay. That's the, and then the other thing is just how awesome that you were able to say, I'm fucking good too.

1 (46m 56s):
Like, like I can do this anyway, continue. So you're like, I could do this.

3 (47m 0s):
Well, I ended up becoming friends with several of the people that were in that class. And then Dr. Mellon, Oscar, who was the head of the theater department. Like I want you to audition for some plays. So I did a fucking dreadful production of, of imaginary, invalid. I did some bad plays. And then in October of 84, but that spring market called me and he wanted, he goes, I have something I'd like for you to read, I'm considering doing this next fall. It was that championship season. And he had seen it on Broadway. And I said, yeah, he says, I want you to play a role in it. What role do you want? So I, I played coach at 72 or 74 year old man when I was 22, but that's the one where it transcended craft.

3 (47m 47s):
It that's the one where word spread on campus. And we were full every night. It was a 350 seat house. And I remember on cloud, we don't, we ran four or five performances, so it was minimal. But I remember the curtain falling and feeling this almost out of body transcendent feeling. I mean, I'd never felt anything like that before, you know, being the curtain fall. And I remember watching it and I'm thinking as it's coming, cause we got spontaneous standing O's every night, but I'm watching the curtain fall. I'm like, oh my God, this is the most amazing feeling. I've th this surpasses any, anything, any church, any drug, any sex, any, anything, this is the greatest feeling I'm going to do this forever.

3 (48m 30s):
So that's what really cemented it. That,

1 (48m 34s):
What, what do you think if we could say, like, what is the, is it joy? Is it connection? Can you put it a word on it or is it just this thing? Okay.

3 (48m 43s):
Yeah. Well, I can, I can put a definition on it. I didn't know, naively that I would only have that experience three, maybe four times in my life, over the intervening 40 years. But I, I did the outreach for the show that broke me open in Chicago. Me and Amy pizza both was a view from the bridge at Steppenwolf's outreach. And it was, it was the transcendent and, and I ha that's the one where everything that I learned in theater school, because there were techniques stuff they had us doing. And I thought, what the fuck does this have to do with anything? This is just ridiculous. You know? Well, when I did that play now, when I had done that championship season, all those years, prior, nine years prior, eight years prior, I didn't have the framework to understand what happened, how or why.

3 (49m 37s):
Well, when it happened in, in that ch view from the bridge, I did everything coalesced everything. And, and I had this moment, I hesitate talking about it in public because it cheapens it, but let's just say it was a personal transcendent moment. Something unlocked in my unconscious mind. And it was a trauma within my family that I bore witness to. That was never spoken of again, in my family, we were basically recreating it at the end, that scene at the end, I was not aware of it until final dress rehearsal. And then like the emotional dam burst and every performance of that play felt like my body, my soul was taken out of my body and washed.

3 (50m 19s):
And so that, so, but to, to define what you said at the end of that run of, of that play, George <inaudible> played one of the supporting roles in the play. We were having a party and that man was great. He's a great, great play man. Cheers. And I said, yeah, we, we did something special. And George said, Nope. Earl was more than that. It was more because we were 500 spirits in the same space for three hours. And for those three hours, all 500 hearts drew the same beat or beat the same rhythm and all 500 spirits drew the same breath.

3 (51m 1s):
And that is spiritual. And that's what we had. And like what, what a poet, most poetic, beautiful description of live performance. Cause that's what it is.

2 (51m 10s):
Can't get that. I mean, do you ever get that doing film and TV?

3 (51m 15s):
You, you have moments. There's so many steps in that process. There have been times on set where, where, where some scene will become that and you can feel it, but the camera has to capture it. The editor has to capture it. So that step, because there's been, there's been a few things where scenes were just stunning as we did them. And then I see the end product and like, ah, well, they didn't get it.

1 (51m 43s):
I think the thing that sticks out for me Earl too, is that what you're describing is like what we talk because Gina and I were both therapists for awhile. So we talk about healing, right? So there was something healing about that production and that experience together that the audience and it, it, it was like a lot of things came together and it was magic. And do you think it can even in another play or like if I cast you, I would love to see you in like true west or one of those ones. Do you think that there's something that you can like cultivate or just has to happen? Do you know what I mean?

3 (52m 21s):
It has to happen.

1 (52m 22s):
Sheena thinks it just has to happen.

3 (52m 24s):
Hmm. It does. But there are processes we can, you know, we can lead the herd that direction. It doesn't mean every cow is going to get through the gate into the right field, but we can lead them in that direction. So I think it's, I think it's both.

1 (52m 43s):
Do you, do you direct Earl?

3 (52m 47s):
I mean, I've done TV film or, well, no, I've done some short films that I've worked on. Right.

1 (52m 52s):
I just think you have a vision, like the way you talk about performances and the way you're talking about like directing. And also, I just would love to see something you direct. But anyway, go ahead. All right. So we were talking, we were talking about like, we skipped a step and I'm glad we went back to that step because this story came out of it.

3 (53m 10s):
Well, there's one other step that led me to Chicago and the theater school after that had happened. And I'm like, I have to do this. I have to be an actor. I have to pursue that feeling. The second city touring company came through now had been through one year before and I went to see them again. SNL came out when I was in middle school. Well, we, I was in the sixth grade. And so from the beginning I was into all of that. And those movies that they made, those were my heroes and Belushi particularly was my hero. So I went up to an actor, Rick hall, who ended up being my neighbor here for several years. But I went up afterwards and I said, Hey man, you're you're from Southern Illinois.

3 (53m 50s):
Cause he'd made some joke about it. He goes, yeah. He grew up on a pig farm. I said, how, how did you get, how did you get in this? He goes, you're lucky. We're a brand new company. I just got hired a couple of weeks ago. Our director is on the road with us. There he is Don D polo. So I go over to Don. This would have been the spring, late winter, spring of 1985. So I'd go up to Don, start talking to him. I don't know what I made some impression on the guy. And at that point, the second city was three classes. Don taught all three. They didn't have the training center. It wasn't a hundred people. It was two dozen people. And Don was the guy. So Don saw something in me. He gave me his number. He said, call me this summer. I want to make room for you.

3 (54m 32s):
So the summer of 1985 for six weeks, every Saturday, I drove back and forth to Chicago. 840 miles. Yeah. So I would take Don's level one class after a couple of weeks of level one, because Darren knew I was making that big commute, you know, seven hours in the car each way Don said, Hey man, could you, would you want to stick around? So he put me in levels two and three. So I was doing all three levels by the end of it. So I would be there at like noon or one o'clock having left my house in Kentucky at like three in the morning, you know, I would do classes all day. So there were a couple of weekends. I stayed up.

3 (55m 12s):
I was just too wiped out and I got a hotel, but for the most part I was driving it. You know? So that's what sets me up. I got to get to Chicago because Don thinks I've got it. So my plan was, I'm going to go to the second city. I'm going to be there for like four or five years. Then I'm going to go to Saturday night live and then I'm going to get into movies. That's my plan. So I got to get to Chicago. Well, Dr. Melanosis was encouraging me to get my advanced degree. He was encouraged me to go into directing cause that's better to get a teaching job to have a direct inquiry. But I said, you know, Dr. Him, I don't want to teach. Well now I know what, because he had been an actor, you know, that's a really hard, hard thing and you need to have something to fall back on.

3 (55m 54s):
I didn't want to do that. So I auditioned for a few schools, the Goodman being the top of my list while I got into the top of my list, didn't get into the B and C choice, but I got into Goodman. Dr. Bella loved me. Stella was there at my first. And so I got into theater school. So I started Austel Hoff and, and Chet going at each other. And my classes, well, toward the end of that first quarter, this would have been November of 86, Don DePaulo calls me. And he said, do you want, you want to join our touring company? Yes. He said, you'd have to drop out of your MFA. I don't care. You'd have to have a second job because we, I don't care because it's all happening.

3 (56m 36s):
I've been here for a few months in the big city and everything I plan is happening. He said, well, we're, we're hiring a new big guy for the touring company. Be there Saturday. I'm going to call Joyce. I'll take care of things, but you do need to go through the literally called it the formality of the audition at the end of that phone call, he said, you know, I'm not doing this show. Dell is coming Dell close. Dell's coming back from the Olympics to do it. He's got this kid over at the Olympic he's nuts about, but look, I'm going to talk to Joyce. I'm going to take care of things. Gives me Chris farms. So, so when we go in once many years ago, a budding young, he wanted to be a producer, but I was asked at a panel Mr.

3 (57m 22s):
Brown, what does it take to best prepare myself for a career in Hollywood? And it came to me full formed then, and I've used it many times since, but I said, well, if you want a career in show business, this is what, this is how you can best prepare yourself. You're going to need a little help ask about 10 or 12 of your friends, people that you trust, but people that are sturdy that you can count on and you have them come over and you have them line up one right after the other. And then you face them with your back to the wall, spread your legs and have each of them kick you in the crotch as hard as they can. If you get through all 12 of them without being in a ball of tears, crying for mercy on the floor, you're ready to get started. So, you know, looking back that was my first kick in the balls was I've been here for a few months and I everything's happening the way I've planned them to be.

3 (58m 10s):
And then now if it had been Don show, it probably would have gotten the gig, but Chris was that transcendent. He had that kind of energy even then even I knew as I'm watching, like, oh, this guy's fucking great. You know, I believed in myself too, but you know, I took note when he got the gig, I'm like, okay, well I can see how he got the gig. And then I saw him do every review there until he went to SNL. And then irony, we mentioned earlier, or I did about Fox, wanted a star in something about Mary. Chris was at the top of their list. And he actually passed while we were doing the movie. Cause I was in my hotel room in Miami and I turned the news on breaking news out of Chicago comedian.

3 (58m 51s):
And it was just like this, this shock. So, so anyway, that was, that's how I ended up in theater school. So I go back to theater school for me as an artist. That's the best thing that could've happened to me because I learned and absorbed so much at the school and picked up so many tools that I wasn't even aware of at the time that made me a far better actor than I would have been. If I had been thrown into the lion's den, you know, like, like Chris was, Chris was eaten up by, by that, you know, great

1 (59m 21s):
Point. No, that's actually a such a great point. So w you hadn't and you had referenced being on set and realizing things that you thought were weird or bullshit in school you were using, do you any specific examples? And if it happens to be a Bella story, that'd be great too. It's did you ever use, like on set? Do you use Bella stuff?

3 (59m 43s):
I do. Yeah, I do the w okay. My Bella introduction story by after intros would go into casting pool and we did, we did spring awakening as our intro, you know, where we all traded off roles and whatnot. So NFA was in the pool on your second quarter. So I was doing walked to the Tory doors and I was the lead, the general general, some PE anyway, we're in rehearsals. We'd been in for a week or two, and Bella was our faculty advisor. So she comes into our first rehearsal. Well, I had done my homework. I had read my standard Slafsky I knew my super objective.

3 (1h 0m 23s):
I knew my scenic objective. I knew my beats and I was ready. And so we're doing the first scene where I make my grand entrance and Bella I've got stop, stop, stop. Oh, Earl, is it a yes. Stuck. Develop it Earl. Oh, you're doing well, Dr. Bella, the super objective of general say-on-pay pay is blah, blah, blah. In journalism. Aw. And she just lets me roll off. She's nodding her little gray head and she says, oh, I was an audience member until say the March. That would be very exciting. I mean, it's, it's real in these stories.

3 (1h 1m 4s):
I have a question for you Earl. Yes. Dr. Bella. Well, why don't you do that instead of this crap, but this is terrible. And then she goes, and what do you have on your feet? I said, Chuck Taylor converse, Jules, would that general wear DuckTales? I don't think so. Put some shoes on. So that was my introduction to Bella.

1 (1h 1m 29s):
I do a great impression to a really good people who are listening. Can't see, he had the phase glassing with her tongue and her eyes on the glass.

3 (1h 1m 40s):
Yeah,

1 (1h 1m 41s):
Exactly. So the other, okay. One thing you mentioned about two things I want to before. So I, oh, and I'll just be, you know, I suffer from depression and I'm wondering if any of that depression stuff has come back for you. And if so, what do you, how do you take care of it and still maintain? Obviously you're working as an actor all the time. So how do you work with that? I think it's really important, especially for youngsters to know about that. So let's start there cause I, I don't want to let it go unnoticed.

3 (1h 2m 14s):
Well, you know, it, it depends on what flavor of the depression you're talking about. If you're talking about that existential angst, where you lose your mojo for life and you can't figure out what any purpose or anything is that happened to me twice in my life. It happened when I was around 13 years old. And I remember being taken to the doctor and the doctor examines me and he says to my mother, he goes, he's fine. He's just depressed. And I remember thinking in my 12 year old mind, well, I'm wanting to kill myself. You know, I didn't say that, but that's what I'm thinking. And it was just, you know, so I went through that. And then when I, again, when I was around 19 or 20, right in there, I went through a period of funk.

3 (1h 2m 57s):
And it was that experience, those experiences and championship season, and then view from the bridge and all of the shit that I learned in acting school about opening your spirit and about being a vessel to that. They made me realize where all that shit was coming from. When I talked about the family trauma that, that I experienced through that play and felt like my soul was washed. I went home and I brought it up. My uncle and my mother brought it to my uncle. First long story short, my uncle, my grandfather tried to kill each other. And my uncle said, you slid

1 (1h 3m 35s):
Open and you witnessed it. Yeah.

3 (1h 3m 36s):
Yeah. I saw them with a tire tool and a two by four hitting each other in the head. I saw my grandfather grabbed his gun and put a shell in it and turned to shoot his son who had run through the barn. I was five and I was shoved behind the door and hidden. So my mother, so I couldn't see it. So I'm watching through the door crack. I'm seeing this happen. I saw him running for his gun that was in the truck. And it was never mentioned to me again, ever in my presence ever. So adding all of that up the dysfunction within my family. And when I bring it up to mother after it's happened, she flew off the handle. Why can't you let a sleeping dog lie? Why do you have to bring this shit up? Just let it go.

3 (1h 4m 17s):
You have. And I'm like, no, nobody let it go. And that's when I realized that's where those depressive funks came from. That's what they're rooted in. You know, it's, it's in my genetics, it's in my DNA and I'm going through those periods in my life were big transitional periods. So suddenly there's a big shift in, in me, physically, mentally, spiritually, every which way. So the ship that I was mired into is what just sucked the life out of me. So those are the two kinds of depressions that I, I said, I can, I can see the devil coming. I can see him. I can see him when he comes around the corner. And I have, I paint, I play music.

3 (1h 4m 57s):
I find some expression to toward him off. So he hasn't been able to sync his closet to me. Now there's a depression of, of life. And, you know, things, you don't get the way, you know, when Deadwood was cut off at the knees when I was in a funk for a fucking year, because that was my, everything. I was a writer on the show. So it was my life 24 7. And we got cut off at the knees. I was wow. And

2 (1h 5m 23s):
Because it was too expensive. No, I mean, no,

3 (1h 5m 27s):
It is a very long story. That's that was one of the stories they tell we were expensive because we never ever came in on budget. There were a lot of factors at play. There was a housekeeping deal with paramount that with David Milch, should they give him up? They got worldwide rights, but they weren't putting any production money in. So while HBO was still making money, they weren't making all of the money.

2 (1h 5m 49s):
And

3 (1h 5m 50s):
They were trying to keep costs down and or force paramount, I think to put up some production funds. And, and we were basically the pawn in a corporate town. The CEO

1 (1h 6m 1s):
Is such a good show, such

2 (1h 6m 2s):
Capitalism effects everything.

1 (1h 6m 5s):
But also

3 (1h 6m 7s):
The flip of that is to create, we have to have the facility and the funds to create now, sometimes not having enough is what prods you, the most inventive things, you know?

1 (1h 6m 18s):
And also like, it's just sad because there's personal lives. When things get cut off at the knees, it's not just like it's people's jobs and dreams and hopes. And I think like a lot of people don't get that. Like I never did until I really worked in it that like, oh, when you stop a show, it's a whole community that's affected. It's not just some, you know, so you were in a funk for a year and then how did you get out of it?

3 (1h 6m 43s):
Well, we had, first of all, I'm married to an amazing person who knows me in and out. And I was sitting here griping over. There were two actors I used to audition against, you know, jobs for. And one of them was making $5 million on a movie. Now I took nothing away. The dude deserved it. He was immensely talented. He became a movie star, but he's got a $5 million deal and I'm reading it. And the trades and meanwhile, I'm kind of broke. And I was bitching and griping. And my wife, she walks into the dining room. She goes, what are you proud of stuff as huh? She goes, career wise, what are you proudest of? And I said, Deadwood, because I expect a little backtrack.

3 (1h 7m 27s):
I naively thought when I entered this industry, that if you do special work and it does well then good things come to you. Now screen was the first hit that I was on west Craven was my first mentor in Hollywood. I did three movies with west. I became close with him personally close west, gave me billing. So my, my name and pictures, you know, front billing. I didn't even realize at the time that's a big, pretty big deal. So two years later Mary happens, well, I didn't think was scream. I didn't bring anything special to the table. I'm just good in it. You know, it was a great movie and I was good at what I did, but my role, my portrayal didn't really do anything to make it. You know, that movie two years later, something about Mary, my belt.

3 (1h 8m 11s):
Well, I did, I was a big part of that movie. So, you know, I'm like, all right, baby, here we go. Gravy train bags are packed for the gravy train man, while I'm standing at the station and the train blows right by me leaving. Yeah. So that's what

2 (1h 8m 26s):
New bags or bags or packs for the gravy train or

3 (1h 8m 30s):
Yes, they paid me scale for that movie. They paid me scale to do something about marrying and then they didn't, they didn't make a sequel when they didn't make a sequel. Like, so I'm griping here at the, at the dinner table, breakfast table. What are you proudest of? I said Deadwood. And she goes, when was Deadwood? I said, what? She was women's Deadwood. I said, well, I did the pilot, no two. We went to series. We came out in oh four. She goes, yeah. So that was, you did that four years after something about Mary, right? Yeah. She goes, well, if the gravy train had picked you up, you'd be the fat, goofy guy in broad comedies. You wouldn't have done Deadwood.

3 (1h 9m 11s):
It would, the part would have been too, not good enough for you because you would have been, you know, what that accurate

2 (1h 9m 19s):
Deadwood.

3 (1h 9m 20s):
Yeah. Yeah. And so that was, that was a real moment for me of, she was right. She was dead on. Right. You know, so

2 (1h 9m 31s):
She's an amazing support system because she knows you and she knows what to say to you. Yeah. I have to. I don't want to let it go. The thing that you were talking about when you, when you re really sorry, you experienced that trauma and at such a young age, that's so shaping. I just want to observe that everybody who says, let it go, what they really mean is push it down. Yeah. So let's stop saying, let it go. Because things only you, nobody ever engineers starts out to let something go and then successfully does it. And it's not a set of keys that you can leave on the floor. It's a, it's a trauma and it's in your body. And I just wanted to say that because I just feel like, let it go is such a thing that people say

3 (1h 10m 13s):
That's where some of the shit that we learned in school movement to music, you know, when we'd be an hour and a half into that. And I was this ever going to fucking is, you know, but it's all that came together. That energy from that time at five was buried within me. Now I'm going to set myself up. I don't think I'm special. A lot of people, the majority of people have traumas that they've never dealt with and that energy is buried inside. You. Th the, the analogy I used on my own was, you know, I used to cut firewood and that's how I earned. My first car was cutting firewood. You cut down a tree, you see the rings. Well, you could see the, the years of drought when the thin ring, or you could see where lightening had struck because there would be a blemish in the ring of the tree.

3 (1h 10m 58s):
Well, then the other rings would grow around it. Well, so that's the way I began to see that's what traumas are. They're buried. The only way to get that out is to drill down into the tree and take it out. Well, that's the same shit that we go through, you know, spiritually and energetically. So you either work through it, you express it, you get it out of you or it festers inside of you. So, you know, we, it's a search for truth under imaginary circumstances.

2 (1h 11m 26s):
Ooh. Did you, did you make that up?

3 (1h 11m 29s):
I did. I had the thought before.

2 (1h 11m 30s):
Amazing. It's amazing. I love that. You're giving us a lot of pull quotes for advertising for this episode, by the way. So thank you for that. Okay. So you might've gotten derailed from your plan and the gravy train at the beginning, but you have had a career that most people would just kill for.

3 (1h 11m 51s):
There's a great lesson learned from Viola Spolin and from that whole yes. And well, I learned it as a, you know, a, a trick on stage and how to build a play out of nothing. Yes. And accept the reality that's created and, and, and move it forward that's life.

1 (1h 12m 11s):
And that is life. But here's the thing. Like I find what I at 46 now, what I find is people are really good at doing a lot of times, one or the other. But I think we got to do both, except what is happening. Like the truth is I didn't get the job for me or I did, or whatever, except that, and what's next. So I feel like your career, if we can look at it is like a huge, yes, I'll do this and then this, and then this happens and then this, but like you said, yes. And then you pivoted when need be. But like, I think we gotta do both. Like you can't just be like Andy and Dan, I'm just going to look for the next thing without saying, yeah, this is happening.

1 (1h 12m 51s):
And then let's let me pivot. So I guess I want to ask, like, what, what what's happening now in your life? Like, you're unhappy. Like, what do I want to ask? Since you have a thriving career, do you have like aspirations? Do you want another Deadwood in your life? Do you want another, what do you want in your life in terms of writing in terms of like for you, what's next?

3 (1h 13m 14s):
There's nothing like Deadwood. I can't even put into words what that was like, you know, David Milch, I've had two of my life's great teachers and met them through my career was west Craven and David Milch. And I cannot say enough wonderful things about each person,

1 (1h 13m 33s):
David Milch. Talk about why that, that he was so important to you.

3 (1h 13m 40s):
David, I've met a handful of people in my life that, that might have that level of intellect. I mean, the guys, he was a genius. He was a genius, almost invariably, someone whose intellect is that powerful. The other part of their brain suffers. They have almost a interpersonal disconnect, you know, Asperger's or whatever you want to label it. But it's just because that part of their brain is so dominant. David had an emotional side of his brain that was every bit the equal to his intellect. David was able to, to see people, you know, and to see the cracks in your spirit and Dave being Dave wanted to fix them. Now, when I say that, that gives you ideas of some bead wearing sandal wearing, you know, not mistakes.

3 (1h 14m 23s):
No,

1 (1h 14m 25s):
Bad-ass right.

3 (1h 14m 26s):
David was a heroin addict for years. He was a terrible gambler. He was a convicted felon. So David was a very calm, I'm looking at a painting of him. As I say that David was a very complicated man. And he took me under wing and we, we, he has all the timers and he is in a home and we are losing him one memory at a time, but I would trade nothing for that period in my life, creatively, spiritually, everything about it. I wouldn't trade it for anything. So that's what we're looking for. You know, there is no recreating that moment. It's yes. And what's the next thing.

3 (1h 15m 6s):
So it's always about the writing. I always, you know, now when I started this, I can't say that my ego wasn't such, I want to see my name up in lights, you know? And then, then I had experiences like, like championship season, like view from the bridge where I realized like emotionally and spiritually, what this can do for me. And that made me think of what those, those stories that I saw, whether it be in film or whether it be in book or, or whether it be a painting, those things that, that have moved me, that you know, that someone else was the vessel for creating. And they connected with me. So that takes precedence.

3 (1h 15m 48s):
And I've said this once to, I think it was at the theater school to a group of students and David Milch. This was first coined with Milch when he was mentoring me about writing. And he said, what you have do David too. He goes, what you have to understand is that stories have a way of telling themselves that they need to be told. There are truths that need to come to this world. And whoops, lost my earpiece. He said that you, as a writer, you are a vessel for those truths. So what you have to do is open your spirit and listen, and allow that story to flow through you.

3 (1h 16m 29s):
And he said, so remember, every character as you're creating, every choice that's made, comes from one or two places, does it? How did he phrase it? I forget what I phrased again, in my own way, it either comes from fear or love, and that's either your ego or your spirit. So the impulse to share that story to be, if it comes from your spirit and if it truly connects you to that creative spirit and it connects you to other people, nobody can take that away from you, nobody. Now, if you want to make a career in this and to make a living, you know, you're going to get a lot of kicks in the balls. You're going to get haul

1 (1h 17m 10s):
A lot of ball tickets, a lot of ball games.

3 (1h 17m 13s):
So, but that's your ego. You have to realize that that part is your ego. And if you can let that go, you know, now I can't, I've got a big ego. I got a fucking poster of myself in here. So yeah,

2 (1h 17m 29s):
Maybe you needed a little bit of a bit. I mean, we were just actually talking about this earlier. There is a quality to, you know, highly successful people. Like you can't really do it without any.

3 (1h 17m 39s):
No, no, you have, no, you do have to have you do now. Oh, good. Well, this goes back full circle to the panel. I did a panel years ago with John Riley. John was there. We overlapped a year John seat and I was the guy I was reading the trades. I was keeping track of who was, who, who was doing what? And they asked him, you know, about, he goes, I got friends, you know, they're, they're just in the trades, always trying to keep track of, well, you can't do that. And I took it at that point that he was looking down his nose at, at people who, but, and John, I was there in Chicago when, you know, he got his first big break and the guy's fucking brilliant.

3 (1h 18m 22s):
He's incredible. He was incredible in school. But then after time passed and I realized what John was really saying is you can't let that be your entire life. You can't let your feeling about yourself. Hinge upon. Can I get a day on this movie? Because he was talking about people who were crushed by that again, at that point, when I was, I wasn't struggling cause I was still doing this full time, but I was that guy constantly looking for that angle, constantly looking for that foot in the door. Whereas with John, his career was at a place they were coming to him. So I felt like, well, it's easy for you to say, but then as time passed, I realized, Nope, I misinterpreted what, what John said.

3 (1h 19m 3s):
And John was right. If you put your whole sense of self into this, into getting that job, you know, and then you don't get that job.

2 (1h 19m 15s):
I ha I have to say, because nothing is a coincidence. And w I won't tell boss is John C. Riley story. We've told a lot on the podcast, but it ha it, it happened at his showcase at boss's showcase. And you had mentioned being in showcase. And right before you got on, we were talking about this year's class and how they're not, they're coming to LA, but they're not performing in front of people. They're not, they're not doing the showcase that we all did, but

3 (1h 19m 44s):
That was the term has changed drastically.

2 (1h 19m 48s):
Oh, say more about that.

3 (1h 19m 49s):
It's because we're doing what we're doing. We're here right now. You, it's a film thing and now, you know, hell most auditions are and, or meetings. And I don't find, so

2 (1h 20m 1s):
Should it be for these, there's no opportunity for these people to write, to meet. I mean, the, the point

1 (1h 20m 7s):
Of show you got something out of the showcase, you said you were at your showcase and you had, you, you were a look. You were,

3 (1h 20m 14s):
I didn't just say that. Well, Gretchen Rainelle came up to me, but I didn't get a development deal. And there's another thing, man. There were, there was one classmate of mine who was an immense, he was, he was undergrad, but we were the same graduating year. He was really fucking good looking and dashing. He was definitely leading man type. And every day that we had audition class with Jane alderman, you know, on Fridays, I made it a point if Jane says open floor for anybody, if we have extra time who wants to do something, I had something new every week. I mean, it wasn't like I was up every week and I wasn't like, oh, be the first guy to jump up. But if there was free time and Jane would say, who wants to do something, I would do something.

3 (1h 20m 55s):
And I would do something different than I had done before, because I wanted to leave an impression on her. He never once did anything. Sometimes he didn't even fucking show up to class. He got a development deal with ABC that paid him $10,000, you know, as a holding fee. And I'm like, really, really I'm busting my fucking ass. So I did not get anything immediately from, from that showcase. It's not like I got swept up from the showcase, but I planted it, planted a seed with me. Gettys was the agency

1 (1h 21m 27s):
Back then?

3 (1h 21m 29s):
Yep. So, you know, a year and a half later, Elizabeth saw me in a play in Chicago and that's how I ended up with them. And she remembered me from the showcase.

1 (1h 21m 38s):
Of course she did. Yeah. Because she saw you and you were inaction. Right. So in a way that she would have not remembered you, if she saw you on a video, I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah.

3 (1h 21m 47s):
But you know, something, it depends. It depends upon the person. And it depends upon the moment. Sometimes you can have those. I mean, I've gone through, I've been sitting on the other side of the table. I produced the film, you know, and you, you can see it when somebody walks into the room, right. We hired the lead actor off of videotape. We did not meet him because he popped, he popped in like, that's the, that's the character, that's the character.

1 (1h 22m 15s):
So I asked this to Gina earlier, and I'm going to ask you. And I asked, so I teach at DePaul right now. And I mean, I'm only my, those you're about to meet my students and their, and, and you better tell him, I said, hi. And to ask you good questions. Now, when you see him today, right. It's later today, right? Or, okay.

3 (1h 22m 32s):
Three. O'clock

1 (1h 22m 32s):
Great. All right. But my question for you is, and I asked this to Gina. What if you could do, if I came to you and said, you could do one thing right now and not fail, like one thing you want to do Earl, in terms of this industry, what would it be?

3 (1h 22m 49s):
I have a horror film that I've written. That is a it's about race. And it's a slasher film that it touches a lot of really hot buttons. And that's at the forefront right now. I'm trying to make that happen. We got real close,

2 (1h 23m 5s):
Get out type of thing.

3 (1h 23m 7s):
I don't want to go into detail on it, but it was something that came to me even before get out. When I saw get out, I'm like, oh shit, somatically. There's a lot going on here. I, you know, but, but here's the thing. It's about racism in the south. And I said, early on, you know, I am not brazen enough to think that I understand that completely. I understand that the teenage white character in it is essentially me at 15 or 16 years old. I have a directing partner. Who's from new Orleans who grew up in Southern Mississippi. Who's 30 years old, who's black, we're partnered in the thing. So that's at the forefront of what I want to get done.

2 (1h 23m 58s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable Inc production, Jed Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina <inaudible> are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina <inaudible> for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our [e-mail]. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.

What is I Survived Theatre School?

We went to theatre school. We survived it, but we didn't understand it. 20 years later, we're talking to our guests about their experience of going for this highly specialized type of college at the tender age of 18. Did it all go as planned? Are we still pursuing acting? Did we get cut from the program? Did we... become famous yet?