[00:00:00] Phil: marketing Ops doesn't have a fixed or standard identity. [00:00:04] Ronald: I think there's real danger in waiting for the clarity from the organization, I, believe that leaders who survive are the ones who define the structure of their own marketing ops systems. [00:00:14] many adjacent teams don't really understand what MOPS actually does. if we don't better define and educate internally then we don't really control our destiny. [00:00:26] Phil: there's a hidden cost to like this idea of self-taught operations. [00:00:30] Ronald: If your operations is informal and it doesn't have a certain level of formality and rigor, then everything that, that lives in people's heads that are not documented, that are not formalized, depends on the heroics of those few people, and heroics don't scale. [00:00:45] ​ [00:01:12] In This Episode --- [00:01:12] Phil: What's up everyone? Today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Ronald Gaines, digital transformation and marketing ops leader at Sunbelt Rentals. In this episode, we unpack six things. The next generation of marketing ops leaders must learn, number one, operating without formal authority. Number two, stop waiting for the org to define your role. [00:01:31] Number three, the hidden cost of self-taught ops. Number four, thinking in products instead of tasks. Number five, why data discipline outlasts any platform. And number six, how to protect your team's capacity. All that and a bunch more stuff. I have to a quick word from two of our awesome partners, [00:01:49] ​ [00:03:28] Phil: Ronald, thank you so much for your time today, sir. Really excited to chat about all the things you've cooked up for us today. [00:03:35] Ronald: Listen, I am a big fan of the podcast, a big fan of the platform, and I, I, I love talking shop and building with, uh, fellow Mark Mops peers and, and, uh, those who are tried and tested. [00:03:51] Phil: I really appreciate that. Um, it's, uh, it's been a long time coming that we wanted to get you on the show. I know you're friends with, uh, with Darrell here, and~ I know you're friends with, uh, with Darrell here, and we were chatting about like, what are some of the topics that we could surface up on the show here? And you sent us an amazing talk track of almost like a brain dump of like the things that you think aren't talked enough about in marketing ops.~ [00:03:58] ~And so I'm gonna set the scene today, so we, instead of like picking one and going really deep on it, there's kind of six things that we wanted to chat about. So, um, I'm gonna set the scene and I'm gonna let you kinda share like what inspired you and kind of the ideas behind this. But, um, this episode is like for the marketing ops folks out there, right?~ [00:03:58] ~And, and adjacent to marketing ops also, but the folks that have worn the marketing ops hat, like they know that. Like we have our hands in everything and in a lot of cases we're like at the center of execution in our company. You think about like systems, data workflows, campaigns, like whatever, across all of these teams, like we're part of it, like marketing ops is either at the start in the middle or right at the end before the campaign gets launched and when something breaks, like it usually lands in marketing ops also.~ [00:03:58] ~This is why marketing Ops is loved by so many. It's like high intensity roll tons of stuff on your plate. It's super important, very central to a lot of orgs, but that centrality creates this false assumption that. Involvement equals authority. And this is something that jumped out in your answer. And you know, the reality is MOPS is accountable for results.~ [00:03:58] ~It doesn't really control all the time. It's not like that in every company, but I think when you think of budgets, roadmaps, staffing, priorities, they usually live elsewhere. It's not in marketing ops. And whether we like to admit it or not, when we influence things, it's because we've earned it through relationships and not necessarily like formally owning certain things.~ [00:03:58] ~So. That's the paradox that's kind of behind the scenes, uh, in the topic of this episode today. MOPS is critical to success. Everyone knows it, but we're structurally constrained because everything depends on us, but there's very little that formally belongs to us. So, yeah,~ yeah, this episode is for the [00:04:00] marketing ops leaders who, you know, they feel like the role is impossible. [00:04:03] Sometimes we have like love hate relationship with some of it sometimes, but you know, these folks want to still understand how the next generation survives. ~In light of this paradox, ~and Ronald, you've cooked up this like list of six things that the next generation of marketing ops leaders have to learn. [00:04:18] So I'm gonna toss it over to you. Just like, help us set the premise here. What was your inspiration behind some of these six things? [00:04:25] Ronald: I think my inspiration was to make sure that the, the mops professional knew there is a way to navigate through the ambiguity of MOPS roles. Um, there is a way to push ourselves past the survival phase of taking in all of these ad hoc requests and being the operational glue across so many different domains without having any real authority around how we are approaching that work. [00:04:55] Phil: I love it. Uh, Ronald, so like the first one you said was. Learning to operate [00:05:00] without formal authority and how influence is a core skill and not something that, you know, you just kind of pick up relationships you kinda have to do on the job. Like how do we focus on that? [00:05:11] So, you know, maybe help us coin the stage here a little bit like. Marketing ops people feel this thing is that like we sit at the center of execution, ~like we kind of ~ [00:05:20] ~talked about at the ~ [00:05:20] Ronald: ~Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ~ [00:05:20] Phil: ~for a bunch of things. You know,~ like we, we need a landing page like, oh, that's owned by Demand Gen, but we can't do it without marketing ops. [00:05:27] Like, oh, we need product data in the customer engagement platform from the warehouse. Like it's owned by Lifecycle, but we can't do that without marketing ops. Like all these things that want to get done across the company. Marketing Ops has this role to play in a lot of them, and~ and we talked about this like authority paradox that we have.~ we talked about this like authority paradox that we have. [00:05:44] We touch everything. We feel super important, but we don't really control anything and we don't have authority when it comes to a lot of these things. So. You said that influence becomes the only way work moves forward and for future gen marketing ops leaders, this is kind of a requirement or something that's [00:06:00] super important for you to think about. [00:06:01] 1. Learning to Operate Without Formal Authority --- [00:06:01] Phil: Why do you think MOPS leaders who learn to operate through influence become indispensable and, and talk to us about like some of the steps that folks can take today to start being better at influence. Like what does that look like for [00:06:14] you? [00:06:15] Ronald: Yeah, great question. I, I, I, think what ops leaders. Who operate through, uh, influence become indispensable because they demonstrate the ability to be accountable to mops practice that has a rigor to consistently produce, uh, dependable outcomes with quantifiable business impact. If you cannot quantify the work that you're doing for the business and the impact that is making on the business, then it's very, very hard to have the, the necessary influence and authority you need to push and push back on certain assignments and protect your bandwidth. [00:06:49] Um, and I think practically the fastest way to build influence is, is to make outcomes visible. I think most mops practices and practitioners, they do very, very good [00:07:00] work and the variety of work that we take on, um, it's just that when people see that your involvement reliably translates to actual business results. [00:07:11] Um, things like fewer incidents, things like faster launches, better data, more sophisticated capabilities for the business. Then you'll start to see that your mop practice will start to carry more weight without asking for the authority, you'll start to have this unspoken influence. And if I if I had to give, uh, some simple but powerful steps for the mop practitioner out there, I would say, you know, first, if you do not have a central intake process, I think that's imperative. [00:07:41] You need to create a central intake process for those mops practices that may have more, uh, mature practices and they do have intake. Create more rigor around that intake process. Start to better size what that request looks like, starts to better prioritize what that looks like, get better information and, [00:08:00] uh, and, and take around the metrics and the outcome that that particular, uh, work is going to drive. [00:08:06] Uh, the second thing I would say is translate requests into actual outcomes. And so really working with that requester to quantify the business value in the ask. Then prioritize. You know, I think that helps to force prioritization conversations. Once you have an intake process, once you can quantify the different the outcomes of the work that that's coming into your queue, and then you can better prioritize that work that will protect your bandwidth, that will protect your peace of mind, and that you can better approach the work. [00:08:43] Darrell: totally, totally. This is, this one really resonates with me because if you think about it, not just in marketing ops, but just in business and honestly, like life in general, you don't have a authority over a lot of stuff. [00:08:58] Ronald: Mm-hmm. [00:08:59] Darrell: You think you do, [00:09:00] but You don't. And um, even within the business, if you're a MOPS leader, like the MOPS leader, you don't have full control over the [00:09:09] tech stack. [00:09:10] Ronald: Yep. [00:09:11] Darrell: You know, there's still it, [00:09:13] there's still sales operations, there's, you know, there's legal and compliance. So you can't, like, you can't just push your will through, [00:09:23] Ronald: Right? [00:09:23] Darrell: you know, and even as like a marketing leader, even the top marketing leaders don't have full authority [00:09:29] either. [00:09:30] You know, there's still what's happening with the product. [00:09:32] There's still what happening with the sales. And the CEO can literally just say like, I don't like this plan. You [00:09:37] know what I mean? so [00:09:39] so [00:09:39] Phil: seen it. [00:09:40] Darrell: yeah. We've all seen it. Right? So this is, this is, being able to operate an influence without authority is a superpower. [00:09:49] Ronald: a hundred [00:09:50] percent. [00:09:50] Darrell: I, like all the things Ronald said. [00:09:52] Um, it's also just like, you know, I think we've said this before, but like talking to each [00:10:00] person, like each professional that you meet, like as a [00:10:03] person. [00:10:04] Ronald: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [00:10:05] Yes. [00:10:05] Darrell: What do you want? I'm pretty sure we want the same thing. Like, this is what I'm trying to do. Let's do it together, you [00:10:11] know? [00:10:12] Ronald: And, actually let me add another, uh, layer to that. And the layer is this, the influence that I refer to isn't just relational influence. And relational influence will be great, is great for those cross-functional relationships to get cross-functional work, uh, done. But I'm talking about operational influence. [00:10:37] I'm talking about the credibility that your mops practice builds by having, uh, consistent and dependable outcomes that, again, drive business impact. When, and again, I, I know a lot of MOPS professionals are already doing great work. You have to create visibility in the great [00:11:00] work that you're doing with the level of formality that people see. The credibility of the work that you put in. So that credibility mix with I, I deliver and I can quantify how this is going to actually benefit the business. I can better influence things. And then I also, I I, I'll also say there is a level of, of, of initiative that MOPS leaders have to take there. We have to create deliverables. [00:11:33] We're going to have to create the [00:11:34] deliverables to get the buy-in and, uh, start to own certain things. And that's the difference between being involved and being accountable to something, right? Because when when you are involved, you touch the work and that's great, but when you're accountable to something, you can set priorities, you can allocate the resources, you can accept trade offs. And this is what this is going to allow us to do when we, we have this [00:12:00] level of formality and rigor. [00:12:01] Darrell: Yeah. we can, I could talk to Ronald about this all day. Seriously. [00:12:05] Phil: we'll, we'll skip to the second one here 'cause there there's a lot of overlap or I, I guess like a really cool transition to this one. So the second one you talked about, Ronald, was stop expecting the org to define your role and that waiting for clarity is a career trap. Um, this is one of the ones that jumped out to me in your [00:12:23] talk track [00:12:24] Ronald: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [00:12:25] Phil: this, like when I read this, I was like, oh, I'm writing down all the ones that I felt like, Ooh, Yeah. [00:12:30] this is a good one. [00:12:30] And like, I kept like putting lists of them down. But this is one of the top ones, like, um, marketing Ops doesn't have a fixed or standard identity. Like I've had like eight or nine different roles in my career across different companies. It's never looked the same at any of those companies. Whether it's like, because the size of the company, the size of the marketing team, the size of the marketing [00:12:52] ops team, the tech stack, like the business model B2B, B2C, like dude, marketing ops isn't the standard like [00:13:00] thing that is the same across all companies. [00:13:02] Like it is for certain marketing roles. Demand generation, S-E-O-P-M-M, like those roles, obviously, like there's nuance in there, but most people know that there's structure there and it looks very similar across companies. Marketing ops a different bucket. I've never had a role in marketing ops where I didn't have to define what the heck marketing ops meant to other people in the company. [00:13:23] So. I, I wanna like, like, let you chat about this because like, this is super frustrating for some people. Um, but Ronald, you're basically arguing that, you know, this is one of the things that next gen marketing ops leaders must learn because clarity can be a career trap if you're waiting for other people to like, define that role for you. [00:13:43] 2. Stop Waiting for the Org to Define Your Marketing Ops Role --- [00:13:43] Phil: Why do you think we should all stop expecting the org to define our role? Especially for folks that are like a bit younger in their career and they're just like, Yeah. I'm at a big company. This is my job description. This is how things run. Like, who am I to like tell the org that, no, this is not how I'm gonna [00:14:00] define this role. [00:14:00] How do you learn to define your own role in success without waiting for that permission? Curious your [00:14:05] thoughts [00:14:05] Ronald: Man, great question. I think there's real danger in waiting for the clarity from the organization, um, and waiting for a clarity that may never come from the organization. So I, I will say, while you wait, you gotta understand that the work is gonna continue to expand. The campaign is gonna come in, the data needs, the compliance tooling. AI is being thrown on top of it, and suddenly, you know, the MOPS practitioner doesn't have, uh, or taking on all of the work that doesn't fit neatly anywhere else like we always do. That leads to the overwork, that leads to the burnout, that leads to all of the other negative things that we experience as a part of this particular role. [00:14:48] So I, believe that leaders who survive are the ones who define the structure of their own marketing ops systems. I believe marketing ops being so dynamic from org to [00:15:00] org with all of these different variables that, you know, decide what your mops, uh, complexities will look like. Um, I, I believe with all of that complexity, marketing ops is a fluid operating system, right? [00:15:18] And that means when you go from org to org, there are gonna be some standard components, but the, the, formality that you bring to those components and seeing the different complexity of the business, their particular tech stack, their business model. You know, their needs, et cetera, et cetera. You start to build out what your mops practice actually looks like and start to define your role. The other thing to be very, uh, you know, um, mindful with, mindful of is the fact that, um, many organ, many adjacent teams and, and divisions don't really understand what MOPS actually does. [00:16:00] They ask us for so much support, but really don't, they don't know the scope of our role. And if we don't better define and educate internally and show them the structure, then we don't really control our destiny. And the whole goal is to control your destiny. When you can show, go into an organization and show, hey. This is what our first iteration of marketing maturity, MOPS maturity looks like. So we're gonna put in these components and we're gonna have this kind of structure, and then we're going to build on top of that. And then you'll start to see, based on the needs of the org, what that MOPS practice will look like once you build it out. [00:16:45] Darrell: Right on. And you know, I I, I went through this personal, there was a, there was a bunch of change going on in one of my orgs and I became frustrated. I was like, we don't know what the goals are. How are we gonna know what to do? How do we know what to [00:17:00] prioritize? And one mentor that I met, that I was friends with at the, at the company said, she was like, Hey, listen, I know we, our goals aren't necessarily set yet, but we know that revenue will need to increase. [00:17:13] You know, we know that we're gonna need to use technology to support the sales and the marketing teams. We know that we're gonna use, use technology and process to build a better customer experience. So re regardless of the goals, we, we generally know what we need to do. Uh, and, and that really brought me, brought clarity to me. [00:17:30] 'cause there is stuff that you can do even as you wait in, in times of change. The other thing that I think, you know, I, I think about a lot is that, you know, this is gonna be weird for me to say, but marketing ops is, is like a construct. Like [00:17:46] most most things in business are a construct. We made it up. Know what I mean? [00:17:50] It's not like, a, it's not like a physics, right? Like, like, like gravity's not a [00:17:56] construct that's [00:17:56] real, you know? So is chemistry, but most of [00:18:00] business and the stuff that's like, you know, created by humans, it, we made it up. So, so there, when, when I would say, put on your hat and say, I need to solve problems with technology and with people, and with process and with data, that's what I'm here to [00:18:20] do. You know? And that'll guide you. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's a don't wait for a perfect job [00:18:26] description. You know? It's gonna be different everywhere [00:18:28] anyway. [00:18:29] Ronald: So let me dovetail on that, man. I think that's very heads up insight, especially for the most practitioner listening out there. Uh, same here. Like, first you need to understand that the ambiguity, ambiguity is a part of the role. I think the the trap is. Unowned and undefined ambiguity. Right. And what I mean by that is the ambi [00:19:00] ambiguity that I accept, I have to define and be okay with that. [00:19:05] Right. I gotta be okay that the man gen is going to come to me in a knife hour with the landing page, but I'll have a rigor and process that I can point them to. Right. And that actually makes me think about some of the, the core things that I had to like learn and, um, unlearn around, you know, defining my own role. [00:19:29] And, and where it came from for me is self-preservation, to be honest. Right. It, it's, I, it was a need to survive amid the various, you know, unique opportunities brought by each mop role that I did. Just like you said, Phil, right? From role to role, they were never the same. So I learned to stop defining my role by the task. [00:19:50] That I was doing and started defining it by the capabilities and outcomes that I was driving within the role, right? Like, uh, [00:20:00] darl was saying. So I, I, I learned to, uh, to, instead of say we manage Marketo or we support campaigns, it became, I run the customer engagement engine. I own the measurement strategy and integrity, or I operate identity and consent management. [00:20:20] It, it, it cha shifted for me. And once I started to find my role that way, I started to be able to better point to the impact that I was making. Speed to market, reduce risks, better attribution instead of just the activity. Right? And risk is predictable and like the risk of just like not defining your role is the predictable dumping ground that you will become. Work will show up without prioritization, without ownership, without recognition. And again, that's how burnout is normalized. [00:20:56] Phil: Yeah, such a, such a great point. Ronald, uh, Darryl [00:21:00] and I are both like nodding our heads, but, um, I, I think that, you know, part of the reason why there is this ambiguity with the role is because, like Darryl said, like it's kind of a construct, right? Like marketing ops. What is Marketing ops? How long has marketing Ops existed? [00:21:15] Like, we don't really know. We just did an episode about SEO and like, SEO was born in like the early nineties, but like marketing ops is way younger than that, I feel like. Um, but it, like, I think. One of the reasons why it's ambiguous is because not only is it different across companies, but also the role itself, like there lacks this area of like, practice and, and [00:21:39] formality. And, and this is like my, my poor transition into your, [00:21:43] the third one that you have on the list there. But, um, the other thing that you said that you love about marketing ops is like how wide it is. Like we pull practices from everywhere. Uh, you said your wife was, uh, um, p project [00:21:56] management certified. We have like product thinking that we're gonna [00:22:00] talk about in a little bit too, like data governance, a big part of the role change management, like campaign optimization, like you name it, attribution. [00:22:07] Like there's, there's a bunch of stuff that we pull practices from. But one of the trickiest parts of the role is that we don't have the same formal rigor of a lot of those disciplines. Like there is no formal marketing operations management certification or, or training. And like, shout out to Mike Rizzo there. [00:22:25] I, I know he's, he's trying to do this, uh, and, and working on this, but this is part of the problem, right? Like it looks different across every company. And so, like, what I wanted to ask you about this one, Ronald, is like [00:22:37] 3. The Hidden Cost of Self Taught Ops and Minimum Viable Discipline --- [00:22:37] Phil: you said, that next generation of marketing ops leaders, like must learn that there's a hidden cost to like this idea of self-taught operations. [00:22:46] Um, why do you think discipline within our practice is so important? And maybe for all the folks listening, thinking like, yep, you know, that's us, but you know, we don't have time for documentation and [00:22:58] process design and [00:23:00] certification for this and for that. Like, what advice do you have for them on like, how, how do we get [00:23:04] started there? Like how do we avoid or make sense of the hidden cost of self-taught [00:23:08] ops? [00:23:09] Ronald: yeah. [00:23:10] So for the marketing practitioner out there, like I've been there and I, I will tell you without the rigor and of the discipline, uh, what you'll see, especially because what MOPS is for is for scale. and in which you'll start to see is that scale It punishes informal operations. If your operations is informal and it doesn't have a certain level of formality and rigor, then everything that, that lives in people's heads that are not documented, that are not formalized, uh, depends on the heroics of those few people, and heroics don't scale. [00:23:47] Um, and I, what I've seen specifically is that, um, for those who think that this is me, I, I would say start with minimum [00:24:00] viable discipline. And what that could look like is start documenting, uh, don't document everything, but document like your failure points. Document the boundaries, your SLAs, your service agreements, the, the, your, your service catalog itself, what actual services and, um, things are produced out of your mops practice. [00:24:22] Like when you have a service catalog with SLAs, when you have, um. Uh, things like identity resolutions and your suppression logic and your deployment stamps and your compliance, pla uh, uh, data compliance, you know, and standards like these things become the boundaries which you start pointing people to, and you can start operating with more scalable and repeatable process. [00:24:53] Darrell: Yep, totally. I love heroics don't [00:24:57] scale [00:24:58] Ronald: Mm-hmm. [00:24:58] Darrell: because [00:25:00] heroics. Well, what we mean by that is you stay up [00:25:03] all night [00:25:04] Ronald: Mm-hmm. [00:25:05] Darrell: uploading crap, fixing the data, you know, working late on the email campaign, heroics then become expectation [00:25:12] for next [00:25:13] time. So it doesn't scale. [00:25:14] You just burn [00:25:15] out. [00:25:16] Um, and the leaders don't know that you're staying up late. [00:25:18] I mean, you, you could tell them, but they're just like staying up late doing what, you know, they think you're lying. Um, the, the other thing that really resonated with me is if you have that process, like good op operational discipline, it kind of informs the strategy a little bit. It kind of, it's, it's like a sign that the strategy is [00:25:40] clear and, and, you know, has good grounding. [00:25:46] Uh, uh, here's an example. I was putting together one time for an org. The, The process around how to launch a [00:25:53] campaign [00:25:55] And what we found out was one of the first steps was we needed to get a new data [00:26:00] point from, you know, our [00:26:01] data warehouse into the email platform. Every time. Every time. So it, what that meant was the marketers for each campaign were coming up with something new and a new piece of data that they needed that they didn't already have. [00:26:17] So, so that's a big waste of time. And what it, what it also tells you is marketing is like this finger in the wind. What are we gonna do this month, guys? Where it should be, as we all know, it should be programs that you improve over [00:26:33] time, [00:26:35] right? That you test, continually test and it goes into upward [00:26:37] spiral. But, but a good ops process kind of kind of points to that kind of saying like, Hey, this is different every time. Like, and, and it just kind of like, I think good s people know that when you put in process, you can start to see the [00:26:53] cracks and you, you, start to see what's not strategic, what's not efficient, and what's really kind of like random [00:27:00] [00:27:00] random acts of marketing. [00:27:01] Yeah, [00:27:03] Ronald: I love that one. Random Acts of [00:27:05] marketing. [00:27:06] Phil: Yeah, that's Emily Kramer. Uh, shout out to [00:27:08] Emily. [00:27:08] Ronald: I love it. I love it. And this is what I would say to the practitioner out there as well. I, I think that's, that's, you know, great insight. Darrell and I, I think this word this comes from for me, because I, I really do see it, uh, within the community, is that I don't see a lot of practitioners who are PMP certified, [00:27:30] who look at DMA for data management, uh, formality and frameworks that look at, uh, uh, it L four IT service or look at, um, uh, product management frameworks. [00:27:44] The rigor around these particular disciplines that we adopt as a part of marketing operations. We need to better insist on learning and better learning and understanding that rigor of that discipline as we apply it to mops. When we [00:28:00] do this, people will start taking you serious. They start taking your practice much more serious because you put the rigor into your practice and you'll start to see, you will have better boundaries in this very fluid role that we, we exist in. So it is so imperative for MOPS practitioners out there to go, go gain that rigor, go insist, and create that rigor within the processes that they bring into their orgs and, and, and the brands that they serve. [00:28:32] ​ [00:30:35] Phil: Yeah, such a Great point. I, I think we have a lot to learn from project management folks, product management folks also. Um, I think, you know, product management is a really fun area to, to learn from. Like there is a certain process to that, but you know, it's been around forever and there's like a bunch of product people and sometimes like a whole product organization, right? [00:30:58] And they work with product [00:31:00] managers who work with product marketing managers. And so, I dunno, like sometimes I feel a bit distant from that in, in marketing ops and, and working on MarTech. But having worn like the lifecycle marketing hat and a lot of companies, you're often the person working with the data team and the product marketer. [00:31:16] And the product team. So, um, I, I wanted to talk to you about products because like we have a lot to learn in, in terms of like, how do we figure out this like hidden cost of like self thought ops from other disciplines. And [00:31:30] 4. Thinking in Products Instead of Tasks --- [00:31:30] Phil: the other thing that you said that, you know, the. X generation of marketing ops leaders need to learn is that we need to start thinking more in products versus tasks and product thinking makes, uh, value legible. [00:31:43] So look, I know this is something that both you and Darrell are big fans of. Um, Darrell, when did you first come on the show? I think it was like 2024. Um, this, we had like a good portion of the episode about this, like how do we think more about a product? [00:32:00] How is marketing more a product? But, um, I, I think this is really interesting because like Ronald, like data pipelines, automation, workflows, platforms, like they should all be products. [00:32:11] Like why aren't we thinking of these as products and products have, like lifecycle and roadmap and investment cases, retirement plans when it comes to like migrations. So what do you think product thinking makes value legible and, and why is it one of the most important things next gen leaders should focus [00:32:29] on? [00:32:30] Ronald: Great question. Yeah. I think products require explicit success criteria, right? When you own a product, you define what good looks like, and that's the shift. You, you, right? You're, you're no longer just executing strategy, you're defining value and through the capability that you're building or the deliverable that you're working through, right? [00:32:48] And so product thinking will force us to define the users. It will force to define the outcomes and the success metrics. And what I, what I've come to understand is that, you know, [00:33:00] uh, we can frame our work in the various tasks that we do, but what I, I've learned is products get funded, tasks don't. So that is the shift in thinking when we think about products, uh, because products make value visible to leadership. [00:33:19] Um, and so the next Gen mops professional, uh, they gotta understand, again, tasks don't get funded. Products do. [00:33:31] Darrell: A hundred percent. A hundred percent there. So there's, when, when you, when you look at marketing as a product, the, it's, it you really, like Ronald said, focuses on the business impact, right? Of what you're needed to do. There's also a bunch of other. Like, just great stuff that you can steal from product management that has been there for decades. [00:33:58] So it's like the concept of the [00:34:00] users, the concept of the features and the concept of Agile, [00:34:04] Ronald: Yes. [00:34:05] Darrell: because, you know, it's typical marketing is just kind of like what I said before. What are we gonna do this month, everybody? And it's also kind of, let's just do the same thing we did last year, [00:34:17] Phil: What'd you call that? Like finger? Finger in the wind [00:34:19] Darrell: Finger in the wind, like, ooh, what's, what's, what's going on today? [00:34:23] but but when you think of it like, like a product and you think, and you, you have specific like cadence of reviews. You, you, you ask the hard questions like, how's it going? [00:34:34] Ronald: Yeah, [00:34:34] Darrell: are we doing? Is this even, is this even worth doing anymore? [00:34:38] Ronald: a hundred [00:34:39] percent. [00:34:39] Darrell: really key question. [00:34:40] Mm-hmm. [00:34:41] Ronald: Yeah, I think that's, uh, just to, again, uh, booking that again, uh, the whole goal is to move your ops practice from being a call center to a, a value enabler, a capability builder. Right. Um, and I, I would say for the [00:35:00] practitioner who's out there that's listening, um, if you were to start in this product mindset, like practical things that you can do, I, I would say your first steps would be, you know, identify what that product is. [00:35:16] W, which is to say, identifying the value you're gonna bring to the organization, right? Where can I use my expertise That can help drive a quantifiable business outcome. Within that, you'll start to define the users. You'll start to define the dependent teams. You'll need to bring that and manifest that, you know, work, right? [00:35:40] Whether that's demand, gen, lifecycle, SalesOps, whoever. Then from identifying that value in that actual capability or that product and the work defining the users and the scope, then what you will build is, again, to Darryl's point some of the deliverables and some of the great [00:36:00] stuff that we will get. [00:36:00] It's like a, a feature brief or product brief, which is a one page document that outlines the product. Your problem statement. Your the things you're gonna solve, how you're gonna approach it, the scope, the users, the outcomes, the KPIs, the dependencies. And when you have that, it is a, a great artifact to start to go get buy-in. [00:36:22] And then what you do, when you build enough of these, you start to build a roadmap of the outcomes, not the features or the products, but the actual outcomes. Because when you show, especially to leaders, that roadmap, roadmap of outcomes, it helps them to better prioritize and say, oh yeah, I, I want that personalization capability. [00:36:42] Can you bring that up, son? Well, this is the trade-offs. And we start to have a different conversation. And then the last piece of it, I'll say, track the work, right? You track the adoption of the products that we put out. If, if, if it is just a landing page for the demand gen team, did they use it? What [00:37:00] was, uh, for what purpose? [00:37:03] How many, uh, people did it reach? How much traffic did it drive? How much conversions did it get? I want the whole. Thing all the way down. And you'll know if a product is good, because if no one uses it or if it breaks, it's not a good product, right? But if it's a good product then and people use it, then I want to be able to track the adoption and reliability of people using that product. [00:37:29] And that's where the lifecycle of the product comes in, right? I can continue to manage it. Here's the next iteration I can do as to, uh, Darrell's point. I got this one data point from the warehouse. But what we wanna extend, expand those data points so we can expand our segmentation capabilities, right? So that's in the next iteration of that product, and we can continue to build and, and iterate on products that we've already brought to market, which is a great, uh, ability and gives us great value long [00:38:00] term. [00:38:01] Phil: Yeah, this is one of those like nuanced marketing ops ones where, you know, like if you tell like an average marketer, like MarTech and Marketing Ops should be thought of more as a product. Like they would just be like, but like MarTech is just a bunch of products. Like, what do you mean? And you're like, well, no, you don't just buy a MarTech product and then slap it on. [00:38:19] Like, there is an entire process to getting that hooked up. And then guess what, like, once it's hooked up, it's never perfect. Like there's a lifecycle to that product, improving it, getting adoption for it, hooking it up to new things. And you know, lo and behold, finger in the wind, there's gonna be new requests and you need to like, [00:38:36] tweak the product. And so I really love the, the, the rethinking of it for, um, for the discipline there. Um, alright. Looking at time, so we're, we're doing good on, on some of those. We're, we're in the final two things Ronald that, that you think marketing ops leaders need to double down on? Um. I'm, I'm really excited to, to, to give you room to talk about this one. [00:38:56] 'cause, um, I, I totally agree with you on this one. [00:38:59] 5. Data Discipline Outlasts Any Platform --- [00:38:59] Phil: You said that data is the career moat that you want to invest in as a marketing ops person. Lots of folks are kinda chasing tools and tech and AI LLMs, but there's this idea of data discipline that is always going to outlast whatever platform, whatever LLM you decide to hang your hat on. [00:39:19] Ronald: Yeah. [00:39:20] Phil: I think this is one of the easiest to defend of, of all the, the six that we're talking about today. Like what are some of your favorite things to do to get serious about leveling up that data skills is a different conversation though. And that's the one I wanted to ask you about. Like, getting new skills is one thing. [00:39:36] Um, actually becoming more of a player internally when it comes to data stewardship and being seen as someone who is like serious versus, you know, just a marketer versus like the data team actually leaning on you for marketing use cases and like being able to talk to them eye to eye. Yeah. Just wanna let you riff on that there. [00:39:56] I [00:39:56] love this one. [00:39:56] Ronald: Yeah, man, this is, this is a great one. I, I [00:40:00] truly do think that for our practitioners out there, this is going to be, uh, one of the biggest, uh, the biggest, uh, uh, aspects of your practice that you have to leverage. Um, and your expertise that you have to leverage is data. Uh, data is, [00:40:23] It is, the product and everything else is just the interface. It, uh, it is just, you know, the connection to it, right? And, um, when we think about ai, even in its current iteration, that is all, uh, made possible by large amounts of data. Um, so data is the next career mode. This is where we should be investing our time. This is powering everything that we do, all of our data transformation, all of our cx, all of our ai, all of it is underpinned by the data. [00:40:54] And so my, my favorite things to get serious about the data. I think there are a couple [00:41:00] things. Number one, I, I think I love to just get into the data. Um, I'm a data geek. One of my superpowers is being able to look at data sets and find the opportunities of how my mops practices can bring, uh, value from that dataset. Um, when you can do that and you can see, uh, different trends in the data, you, you can start to, uh, identify different ways that you can actually provide some real value. But I, I, think the, the real game changer. Is being willing to raise your hand and be accountable for the data. And I know that is a black box for many of us because, you [00:41:42] know, data ownership, uh, and all of this. [00:41:46] But it's called being a data steward. And I'm a part of our data governance, uh, practice at my current, uh, organization brand. I'm a data owner, I'm a domain owner of the data. [00:42:00] Um, I, everything you can think of, I've went and got rigorous, uh, skills around understanding the data. And the biggest thing for practitioners now to understand is that's your real product. It's not an artifact. It's when you start defining like the data sets. That's how you break into this and start to use the data and leverage the data for your growth Is. think about like identity and ID graphs and resolution. Think about engagement and, and event data that we have across, all over the different channels. [00:42:34] And the lifecycle stage is consent data, This, these data sets here, whether they have owners or not, especially if they do not, you need to raise your hand and make yourself accountable for, for that data, and then figure out what you can do to activate that data to provide some real business value. I think right now, bops and just business in, in general, it's in a, it is in a very unique place [00:43:00] to, um, define the value of investing in data. [00:43:06] And it's a very hard thing to do, but it isn't something that you can't do. It's just, it takes a lot of alignment across various teams and across the use cases of the data that you're gonna activate. [00:43:19] Does that make sense? [00:43:20] Darrell: totally. Yeah. So what you said, right? You, you need the skills, you need the accountability. You know, I love how you're saying it's a moat. [00:43:28] Um, you also need the storytelling slash translation [00:43:33] into what matters to people. [00:43:35] And I just, I just, wrote this down real quick while you're talking, because there's a difference. [00:43:40] I think most marketing ops or MarTech people will say, Hey, 30% of our data is incomplete. They'll say something like that, you know, but it's a different story when you say, Hey, 30% of our data is completely unusable. For our GTM efforts, [00:43:56] it's a com It's a different thing when you say, Hey, 30% of [00:44:00] our data may lead to a compliance or legal issue. [00:44:04] You know what I mean? So, so, so instead of saying just the first part, like you need to have that sort of business acumen, and it's like overall, like empathy to, to, to translate this into what it means. Because after you said the, the second couple things like unusable for [00:44:22] GTM and, [00:44:23] and there might be illegal problems, then I think you're gonna get it, you're gonna get your projects prioritized, then you're gonna get the investment that you [00:44:30] need. [00:44:31] Um, so skills, accountability, and also being able to just translate it [00:44:35] Ronald: that's a huge, I I have a, a recent experience, again, being a part of our data governance council, um, I had to, uh, create a business brief and a business case around, um, consent, uh, enterprise consent and preference management, right? And the, the, the, [00:45:00] area of risk that we take on by not solving that problem in a, in a. [00:45:04] Short term to the long term. And we, we will have to do that. We're gonna have to again, do that storytelling. But, and at that level of rigor, that's storytelling with all of those different, uh, pieces that, uh, that knowledge and that rigor and that skill and the storytelling altogether to be able to get the business to understand that this is a real thing. And, and I even suffice to say that that's, you know, been put on the roadmap and we've worked on it and, you know, we're, we're iterating against it. And That came out of being able to articulate the impact to the business that the data does have. Um, if, if I was a practitioner now, and you would wanna know where to start, think about your event design, right? [00:45:56] Think about like the event data that that, you you have coming [00:46:00] in and the taxonomy of that data, right? And thinking about like, does it really help you understand the true user's journey and experience across the different channels of the business? Right? Um, and so what did, do they truence look like? Or it could be around, um, uh, identity graph. right? And that's to make sure that the I, uh, you can tie per profiles, contact profiles together across various sources and systems in within your, your, your, uh, stack. Very, very important areas that you can already start to take some ownership of. Start to figure out, get more familiar around your business and start to make an impact. [00:46:46] Uh, because what we're in is it is not learning about SQL or CDP or it's about really building systems that you can trust. uh, The ways that you're gonna operate and use [00:47:00] that data as a state, a data steward, right? And actually bring value to that data. Again, it's a product, it has a lifecycle, it has a way you can manage it. You just have to orient and frame your business towards it. [00:47:13] Phil: I love it. Ronald, I was actually gonna ask you next, like where do people get started there? Like, there's so many things to, to unpack, but I think your, your two examples of just like identity graphs [00:47:23] and like where events are coming in, [00:47:26] mapping those together, I feel like, you know, no one's gonna hold your hand and, and tell you like, Hey, we noticed that, you know, you don't really have enough data chops. [00:47:35] Like, here are things that like no one's gonna like take that for you. And so I think part of your answer is you need to be curious about this. Like, if you want data to be your mode, you can't sit around and, and, and wait for someone to tell you like, Hey, here's a new project that you're gonna like, be part of the data council now. [00:47:50] Like if you have a data council at your company. Why aren't you part of it? Like if there's data privacy discussions and like identity graph discussions, like [00:48:00] why aren't you part of it? Like if marketing ops isn't thought of for those discussions, get your hand up, like join those meetings or like get the recaps of those meetings after. [00:48:09] So yeah, I. I love that one. I think it's a super important one. Uh, the last one that you have on the list, Ronald, it's like last, but definitely not least, like we're, we're bringing it back to the namesake of the podcast. [00:48:22] 6. How to Design a Marketing Ops Intake Process That Protects Team Capacity --- [00:48:22] Phil: You said that one of the key things marketing ops leaders need to lean into is boundary setting and protecting yourself as a practitioner. [00:48:30] So despite, you know, all the ambiguity and the misunderstandings of the marketing ops role. We're designed to absorb work from other folks, and we're often called into work when stuff is broken, and we're rarely celebrated when things are flowing seamlessly because, you know, no one thinks about it. Right? [00:48:49] So we're all familiar with the, the toll this can take on, on the profession of marketing ops, chronic overload, unknown work becomes things that's just like normalized in the company. And, and [00:49:00] burnout, you know, I, I think every one of us on the call here has [00:49:03] felt it. I think [00:49:03] Ronald: Yeah. [00:49:04] Phil: sure a lot of listeners have. [00:49:06] Um, you know, you've talked about the fluidity of the role. Um, I feel like maybe, you know, it makes boundary setting even harder. Um, how do you prevent feeling like you're blocking progress when you say no to things? 'cause I think that's one of the reasons we get burnt out is we don't feel like we have the ability to say no to certain things. [00:49:28] And maybe chat about like, your advice for folks when it just comes to deliberate boundary design. What does that look [00:49:33] like for you? [00:49:34] Ronald: I love this question and I think this is, it neatly packages everything that I was, uh, uh, the points that I made before up really nicely. And, and the answer to this is I don't even have to say no. I don't have to say no and feel like I'm blocking progress. Instead, I just redirect them into my intake process and I say, submit a request and, uh, tell me [00:50:00] the prioritization and, and the business impact. [00:50:04] Then the next conversation we're gonna have is, Hey, here's my list of priorities. And again, you have leaders for this, so what drops Right? And again, I can accept trade offs now, and that's what formality will give you. And rigor will give you. will give you the opportunity to have a formal way of taking and triaging the various work that comes into your domain and, uh, better allows you to manage your time and manage the relationships and the influence you have across those projects. And an advice that I would, uh, I would. give folks, uh, to set deliberate boundaries and, and boundary design. I, I think your artifacts have to felt, frame the boundary design, right? So the service catalogs, the SLAs, the capacity allocations, your, your [00:51:00] everything that you create as a part of your formal process, when you defining your own role helps create that boundary design and, and boundaries that are structural. [00:51:13] You'll see that burnout drops and impact scales when you have those kind of formal boundaries due to the artifacts from the boundary design. [00:51:24] Phil: I love it. Such a great answer. I, I feel like we could call this episode not just the six things that, you know, feature marketing ops leaders should learn, but should learn to be happy and to not burn out in the future. Because Yeah. [00:51:38] like, I feel like this coined the conversation all really well. Um, we, we asked this happiness question at the end of the conversation to, to, to everyone, and maybe part of your answer is just like, I stay happy at work by having, uh, a rigorous intake system and just like blaming the intake process when, when someone is asking for other stuff. [00:51:58] But I'm curious if, if you have [00:52:00] a, another take there, like [00:52:01] Personal Energy Allocation Framework For Marketing Ops Leaders --- [00:52:01] Phil: you're, you know, obviously a marketing obs leader, you're a frequent speaker, you do a ton of stuff, you're also a family man, dad, community advocate. Um, we ask everyone, you know, how they decide what deserves their energy at any given moment at work. [00:52:15] Like, do you have a personal system for staying aligned with what actually makes you happy? [00:52:20] Ronald: Yeah, that's a good question. Thank you for this. Um, I think for me is, and I, I think it's very important for the, the MOPS listener to, to understand is that like our life is beyond. Just this role and figuring out the nuances of this role and quantifying this role. Like we have real life, we have real passions and purposes beyond the brands that we serve. [00:52:45] And so for me, uh, happiness is, uh, those things that help me drive and, uh, Help me fulfill my purpose, help me fulfill my passions. 'cause those things inherently [00:53:00] make me happy. Right? And, um, I had to figure that out. I had to figure out like, I can get into the rat race and trade eight hours a day plus, right? 10 and 12 when you're really investing in your career to whatever expertise or industry that you're in, and give that to that organization. But I had to learn that, like, you know, what skills am I learning from it? And then aside from the work that I'm doing in the eight hours, 10, 12 hours, I'm putting in, how am I also investing that time in, and building? [00:53:33] the things that are important in my life that that reflects, uh, the passions and the purposes that, you know, and the values that I live by. And so I think that is how I determine my happiness is, is, does it help me fulfill my purpose, help me fulfill my passions that, bring value to other people. And I think my, if I had to quantify my passions for people, it would be serving. [00:53:58] I, wanna serve. [00:54:00] How can I serve people? My goal for 2026 is, uh, how can, how many people can I serve and support? Um, and that's in various ways and, and doing various things. And so, uh, I, I'm, I'm more than blessed. I think mops has given me the opportunity to feed my family and to grow myself in various ways. [00:54:21] And, and as I am in this terrestrial form trying to make sense of life. And, you know, your career is a conduit to help make sense Of your existence here. I think it is not your only existence. And I think you just figure out, you know, how you can make impact. [00:54:43] Phil: Love the way that you said that, Ronald. And feel free to plug like some, some of the stuff you're doing on, on the service side. Uh, you know, you mentioned youth debates. You're like, how are you helping future leaders [00:54:52] out there? Plug that. [00:54:53] Ronald: Yeah. So, um, working through, you know, uh, launching a nonprofit that really [00:55:00] focuses on building youth leaders and, and also building, uh, communities. Um, I, I think, uh, this day and age, we need to double down beyond just understanding mops, but dumbed down on understanding the people and the communities that we, we inhabit. [00:55:17] And I think the great way is families and young people, families need that support, you know, and I, I was raised by a village the people, you know, and, and, Neighbors and, and cousins, and grandmothers and all of those things are, are very valuable. And I think we need to start to build what that looks like for the layman and the everyday person. [00:55:42] And I think we need to start building leaders again. And I think we have an opportunity to do that. And I have an opportunity to do that. And so that's what my focus is on. So I, I'm I'm going to be ramping up a lot more work towards serving, uh, the communities, uh, that I inhabit and, and, [00:56:00] serving the young people that as well. [00:56:01] And, and, um, I'm wanna figure out way, because I look at my journey and I could, I could be honest coming from, uh, Los Angeles urban kid, I, I was, I never heard anyone, and I've never said that I wanted to be a mop professional when I grow up. it was never it was never a thing for [00:56:23] Phil: Yeah. [00:56:23] Darrell: Yeah. [00:56:24] Ronald: again. Through my journey, I can give people the breadcrumbs on how to have a quality of living and, uh, secure quality of living in a way to thrive instead of just survive. [00:56:38] And so, um, that's what I'm looking to do with my expertise and, and uh, my professional, uh, career. And is. how can I serve, how can I, uh, grow people, grow communities? [00:56:52] Phil: I love it. Let us know how we can support you this year on, on some of the stuff you're [00:56:56] doing. Happy [00:56:56] Ronald: Yes, sir. [00:56:57] Phil: you on, on the promotional tour there. [00:57:00] Um, thank you. Thank you for doing that. Um, yeah, I love the goal of like, uh, I don't know if you've seen like all those like Pinterest boards, like when kids start going to school, like all the, the parents have this like board of like, oh, like what's my name? [00:57:13] My favorite thing I like to eat. And it's like, what do I want to be when I grow up? I want one person to save marketing ops on there, 4-year-old. [00:57:22] Ronald: listen, I go and do career days and I, I have to show you, I'm, I'm gonna send you a deck. It's a, it was a, it was a mind, it was a Fortnite deck to help young people understand what I do for a living. What digital marketing is? [00:57:39] It, it, it was, it showed them, like, I went on their site. I showed 'em how they could sign up and how they gimme their information, Would I ascertain him and, and imply from this information, how I personalize their experience, so on and so forth. And so, uh, yeah, those are great ways, again, to, to, advocate for, uh, the career that [00:58:00] we're in and show people that this is a, this is a, a viable way to build, you know, the lifestyle that they want. [00:58:07] Phil: I love it. Ronald Disman. Super fun. I feel like we could keep chatting, uh, probably like four more episodes that we could do outta this, but really appreciate your time. Thank you so much for joining us. [00:58:17] Ronald: Um, great, great, Uh, it is been a wonderful conversation. Thank you guys once again for having me.