Show Notes
Toxic showrunners, giving feedback, halitosis, The Taking of Pelham 123, Victory Gardens Theatre, Autism Spectrum Disorder.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
2 (10s):
And I'm Gina Kalichi.
3 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.
4 (15s):
20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.
3 (21s):
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?
2 (34s):
You're committed to that, Joe, how you doing pal
1 (41s):
For your big adventure?
2 (42s):
Getting ready for my Pee-wee's big adventure, by the way, I watched that movie again, not too long ago and I liked it even more. I
1 (53s):
Was so thrilled to hear.
2 (54s):
Yeah. I really, really liked that movie. I think it's so funny. The other thing I, oh, so you had texted me earlier about into the woods.
1 (1m 3s):
Oh yeah. I actually genuinely wanted to know cause is this w two in this episode, are we going to hear from C? Like, is this the,
2 (1m 12s):
He didn't make the cut. I'm sorry.
1 (1m 16s):
Are you kidding?
2 (1m 17s):
I'm not kidding. It just, it did. Well, it was,
1 (1m 21s):
Oh gee. I feel sad in my heart. What?
2 (1m 25s):
I'm sorry. It was just boring. It was just boring. You know, there's an age that kids reach. There's just a line. They go past a line. It's like, okay, you're not as
1 (1m 35s):
Sweet a minute. Wait a minute because it's
2 (1m 37s):
When they're not. So it's it's because she's no, she's self-aware
1 (1m 41s):
I like had the bus time.
2 (1m 43s):
I'm so glad and I'll forever treasure it in my heart as this beautiful, lovely conversation that I, and, and my family and you will love, but it was not giving me it was not giving me. Okay,
1 (1m 57s):
Great. Well, that's important. Like maybe it was a good, like,
2 (2m 2s):
It was a good experience. It was a good experience for her and, you know, and we had wanted to do it. And so when, when, when I did crew for, into the woods, you know, we had to listen
1 (2m 15s):
To that.
2 (2m 18s):
We had to listen to that song or that, that music constantly. And actually, I think that when you, when we were in crew, like we didn't get to see the show
1 (2m 29s):
Ever. Never, never knew
2 (2m 31s):
Listen to something only, and you don't get to take in the whole thing. It's just not the same. And so I had it in my mind that I really hated that show. And when the movie came out, my kids were really interested in seeing it. I kind of liked it. I at least understood the story. I was at least like, oh, this is what this is about. But seeing it on Broadway, I was like, okay, now I get it. I get it. I totally get why. And it's not just that it was on Broadway. Is that I understand what it's about now, because,
1 (3m 10s):
Well, I think, I also think it's so interesting about the theater school aspect, right? So when we were in theater school, we, I didn't have any capacity to understand about loss and love. Yeah,
2 (3m 28s):
Yeah, yeah. So it was great. So I loved to NPV. I loved so I've, I'm actually, I had wanted a lump for a long time to ask you, you told me about a few things that you've watched rewatch haven't hold held up, which we all have those things. It's like, oh, this is not nearly as good as I thought it was, or it's funny, but what has, have, has anything gotten better? Like you didn't appreciate it at the time. And then
1 (3m 55s):
Yeah. So all the like old political movies or movies that have a bent with social justice stuff like, so the taking of Pelham 1, 2, 3 is my favorite movie of all time.
2 (4m 11s):
I don't even know what that is.
1 (4m 13s):
You have to, they made a remake with Denzel Washington and John Travolta that's horrific, but the original is Walter Matthau and a bunch of other dope actors. And it's about, it's a train heist movie. It's about New York city and the train thunder, obviously the subway being taken over brilliant acting, brilliant writing, great social commentary about the haves and haves nots anyway. So that has held up and gotten better. But all of John Hughes movies should be burned in a heap,
2 (4m 53s):
Just trash.
1 (4m 54s):
What, what the fuck? What are we doing?
2 (4m 57s):
God, there's so much, we didn't know. There's just so much. We didn't know. And actually that's been kind of, my theme recently is like, you know how we always say, oh man, think about how many people before there was this acceptance around LGBTQ, think about how many people just died and you know, for him, for all of history up until that point, it was just horrible for those people. And I, so I've been wondering recently, well, okay, well, so what's our version of that. What's our thing that we don't know. We, we ascribe something to something that it's not, and that we'll understand later or, or not at all. And one example is autism.
2 (5m 42s):
I have recently learned that somebody I love is on the spectrum and it has really positively changed my perception. It's literally like a person does a behavior and you interpret it this one way and then you learn something. And then that same behavior no longer is interpreted that way.
1 (6m 13s):
Absolutely
2 (6m 14s):
Behavior that drove me crazy made me angry, riled me up. Now I'm like, oh, you have autism. Got it, got it. I'm so sorry. I didn't get it. And actually I'm looking back through my family tree and I'm going, oh, I bet my mom's mom had autism. And actually she had a therapist who said that to her at once. And when my mom told me that I'm like, what? She didn't have autism, but she was on the spectrum. Right. When rain man came out, it taught us that it made us think that all autism was that right.
1 (6m 49s):
Right. Was like savant or like, so on the other end of the spectrum, right? Oh my gosh. Yeah. So autism. Yeah. That's so interesting. Well, you know, I, I think I've mentioned on the podcast that like, I use the word lame and my cousin called me on it and I called someone else on it recently. And that's how change is made. Like literally. And so there is, I'm like obsessed with the idea of how does real change get made? Like not in, just in words, but like, what is the alchemy that happens with change?
1 (7m 32s):
And I know the answer, but I'm doing a lot of research.
2 (7m 36s):
Well, the thing that you just mentioned about using that word reminds me of in medical school or medical training, it's they say, see one, do one, teach one. So when you're learning procedures, you watch it once you do it once and then you teach it, like, that's, that's the, that's the rate at which you're expected to absorb information, but actually that's exactly what you did with that word. You heard that you heard or saw that, that wasn't okay. You started to do the right thing yourself and then you taught somebody else. But that's how change happens.
1 (8m 18s):
Let me run this by you. <inaudible> with this highlight
2 (8m 32s):
Beachy wave, actually, that's funny because earlier today I was like, should I get my hair cut before
1 (8m 38s):
I love that? See what you want? So it change the way change gets made. Okay. I have a little story about a show about show running. Okay. I was talking to it. What I want to ask you. I was talking to a friend and she's dope and she's a new friend and she's fancy. Or, and then I am in terms of where she's at in her career as a writer. Okay, fine. Has this great idea for a series has a lit agent, lit agent says, Hey, every production company read this dope script and they read it. And she thought, it's such a weird idea that no one would like it. But of course, those are the ones that everyone liked it.
1 (9m 20s):
So then she got to interview producers to see who would be attached. So like this was the first time for her for that great. She gets the dope lady producer attached and then their show. They want to attach a showrunner before they start pitching to networks. All these show runners want to do it. So my friend interviews all the showrunners and picks this one show runner who has experience and is a dude and seems amazing and turns out to be a douchebag. Okay. Okay. So you don't say, okay, so he failed up. He, you know, she didn't, I really respect her. She did not disclose his name because there's the moral of the story is this. So then I go, oh my gosh, what do you do?
1 (10m 1s):
Then you have this great show. You have this bad-ass lady producer. You're bad-ass and you have a douchebag attached who sabotages meetings with his poor behavior and his general jackass. Surrey. Okay. What do you do then friend? And she's like, okay, well, if you unattached the showrunner, before it sells it, the messages, there's a bomb inside of the show. And okay, so this was all news to me. I said, okay, that makes sense. So then what do you do? So she says, what you do is you wait until it sells. And then you unattached this producer and you hire a new producer or a showrunner and you hire a new showrunner. And I said, okay, this is really interesting because my, the juice for me is, does the original douchebag show runner get any feedback, right?
1 (10m 49s):
Or do you just unattach them? Because guess what happens if you unattach him? And no one says anything, my coming up, we'll be attached to this. If I'm lucky, I will be in the position to shop something. And this douche bag is going to attach to my shit. I don't want that. Is there any way friend that someone, even if it's look I'm scared, fuck list to give feedback. I don't like it. I don't like getting it. I, I have been very, very a wimp when it comes to this. However, I am seeing the need for it now. And so what do you do? So I said, well, is there any way bad-ass producer lady can give someone, has to give this guy feedback because our rails, if nothing changes, nothing changes and we're right here.
1 (11m 36s):
And then we're doing this for centuries. And then no, there was no legacy or change. And I can't abide. So she was like, that is a great idea. I'm going to see if someone can, and it's not so much that I want to put people in their place, although that feels really, but I definitely feel like, and this is where, how I feel, what you want to ask your feelings about it. I feel like if there is, so like, if I'm putting out into the world, I want to make the world a better place literally for your kids and your kids' kids and everyone's kids, kids. Okay. I genuinely want that if our world was to exist. So does it something have to change in the system?
2 (12m 17s):
Absolutely. It does. And I share your apprehension about giving feedback, but as I think I've told you in the past, I've gotten a lot more comfortable with that as time goes by, and I've gotten used to saying, you know what, this is why this isn't working. And you know, and I know that that means that that is probably the end of our road together because you're so upset by the thing I've said to you, but I don't care because I've know I've done that to people whose advice I have been integrated and taken on all a, you can't threaten to quit your job every time you don't like what's going on all, you have to be a little bit more of a self-starter all, nobody likes it when you walk ahead of them, 10 paces, whatever.
2 (13m 5s):
And yeah. And, and actually, I, I think it's not what we tell ourselves is I don't want to hurt this person's feelings and that's not, it's valid. It's not invalid. But what we really don't want to do is just tolerate their reaction to our feedback. It's really much more selfish than it, because the selfless thing to do in a nice way obviously is to say, Hey, I don't know if you have ever been in this situation before where, you know, because what happens when nobody tells when everybody's a yes, man, this is my big problem with what I can observe about what happens in Hollywood.
2 (13m 48s):
If everybody's telling everybody else, they're great. And then behind closed doors, they're saying, they're awful. Then how do you know who you're ever supposed to trust? How do you know? I have given feedback in the way of now this side did very cowardly. I did not take a direct approach, but there is just so people know there is a website you can go on to, to anonymously send somebody a note that they have halitosis.
1 (14m 19s):
Wait a minute, wait a minute.
2 (14m 23s):
Yes,
1 (14m 24s):
This is, I mean, this is so fascinating on so many levels. I didn't know what you were going to say. I thought you were going to say we're racist or we're, but specifically for halitosis,
2 (14m 36s):
It's definitely for halitosis. And one of my thousand ideas for an app is to make a bunch of versions of that, where it's like, I want to tell somebody that they're there or their feet stink. And I don't want them to know, and is an anonymous way of letting that person know because the person that I did, the halitosis thing to corrected it immediately. Now, when they received this message, they probably felt pretty terrible. They probably, but at the same time, I feel like if it was me, I would go, I'd rather know I'd rather
1 (15m 12s):
Go. Otherwise,
2 (15m 14s):
Nobody wants, nobody wants to sit next to me. And I have no idea why.
1 (15m 18s):
Okay. Also human beings are so like fascinating and insane to me that we have created we've used technology. I mean, I think it's brilliant. I don't think that, but it's like so specific. It is so specific. The halitosis anonymous website or emails. I, I, how did you figure out this existed?
2 (15m 40s):
Well, Aaron, Aaron, at some point in his medical training, I don't remember if it was med school or residency had somebody who was just one level above him whose breath was so bad. If his back to you, what you could smell it. If his back was to you, you could smell it. And basically Erin suffered the entire year as did everybody else in this person's presence with the, you know, because it's his
1 (16m 10s):
Superior. Right. You know?
2 (16m 12s):
And I thought, I bet I could imagine a scenario in which this is a brilliant person. Who's never been able to get ahead in his career has no idea why. Oh
1 (16m 24s):
Shit. Right.
2 (16m 25s):
And that star and I, and I remember when he was talking to me about it saying, you have to say something because it's a, it's never going to change. I mean, what's the worst that could happen. He could be like, fuck you. And then I'm
1 (16m 38s):
Going to <inaudible>. Right.
2 (16m 40s):
Yeah. I mean, okay, well then that's the choice, but at least you cannot say, it's like, what? You tell your friend that they have spinach in their teeth. It's just, it's kind, it doesn't, it's awkward. It feels uncomfortable. Nobody likes it, but it's kind of, and so I was working with somebody who had really bad breath and I thought, you know, in all ways I really care for this person, but it's such a thing that I can't pay attention to what they're saying.
1 (17m 7s):
Right,
2 (17m 8s):
Right, right. So let's do us both a favor. And then I Googled, how do you tell somebody that they have bad breath? And the slips like came up and I was like, and I don't, I don't remember. Now if it was that they sent an email,
1 (17m 21s):
They probably sent an email.
2 (17m 23s):
I think they sent an email. Yeah. And you know,
1 (17m 26s):
What did you know what the email says? Do they show shell, tell you what they're sending to them. It's a probably kind,
2 (17m 32s):
It's very kind and
1 (17m 34s):
Funny. And like, we all have troubles.
2 (17m 37s):
Somebody who, you know, has contacted this has used this website to let you know that you have a problem with your breath and they, they love you or they like you, or they respect you or whatever it is. And they, and you know, they can't bring themselves to tell you in person. So they sent you this.
1 (17m 59s):
Oh, gee,
2 (18m 3s):
It's great. Now of course there's a big opportunity for people to abuse this. And I'm sure there's assholes. Who said like, do you know that thing where you can send a bag of shit to somebody's door?
1 (18m 13s):
Yeah. But like, yeah. Can I just tell you that there used to be a site? I think we may, maybe I talked to you about this off the air, but like there used to be a site for like people who had terrible dates with people like men or, or boyfriends that were horrible. And it was, it was, it was, it was, it, it was right at the beginning of the me too movement. So it got a lot of, and then people went crazy at my old boss called me and said, did you report me to the site? And I said, I won't name him. But I said, and it wasn't the famous boss. It was another boss. And I said, what are you talking about?
1 (18m 53s):
I mean, I'm right. I'm in Chicago. I left Hollywood behind. And he's like, my life is like up turned upside down because someone put me on blast. This website called like, don't date him.com. I don't know if it still exists, but I think it got taken down because people were liable and it was like a whole thing. And I said, okay, first of all, like I'm recovering from a nervous breakdown. Are the least of my worries. I'm trying to like get healthy so I can live a life here in good old Chicago with my dead dad and my new boyfriend and my mom who going to get cancer in about three months. So like what, what, what, apparently people, it was like a, it was like one of those trash book or whatever we used to burn book or whatever your book online about SU like w douchebag dating people.
1 (19m 42s):
I don't know, like whatever. So anyway,
2 (19m 45s):
That's a showrunner, showrunner will be a great name for like a team of something like a rugby team. Right.
1 (19m 55s):
<inaudible> a team of like what you call like a team of Clydesdales, showrunners.
2 (20m 0s):
Exactly. Exactly. Just people who run races, but they were really fancy. Yes.
1 (20m 7s):
Or like, maybe they're like people that like love drag and wear and run races show runners.
2 (20m 13s):
Totally. Yeah. Anyway, anyway. Yeah. I mean, obviously the higher stakes, it is the higher stakes. It is like, you know, and we, I guess we don't know, is, is this person's difficult, difficult personality, part of why they have gotten as far as they have. I mean, I have no idea does do, does your friend think that this is, this person is good at their job?
1 (20m 40s):
So I think it's what happens to a lot of, I think it's mixed bag of like they managed during a time to these showrunners, a specific kind of shown who showrunner. I think we're probably talking white males in their forties to sixties, like lucked into these jobs where they could attach to younger writers with better crazier ideas, more creative folks, and were able to sort of ride their coattails, but also own a room in some way they must have, and then sort of went from there. So they don't have like the creative jam, but they are the exact stable.
1 (21m 24s):
Everyone loves an old white dude jam or did love an old white dude to be in the room with these young Gress writers kind of a situation. So the answer is yes and no, if by goodbye, their job, meaning they did the old version of Hollywood show runner really well. And it worked for them for many years and now what is happening. And I don't care if it, if people want to ignore it or not, there is a reckoning going on, even if it's not systemic, it is starting within people. So, so women and people of color are saying, wait a second, wait a second, wait a second. This douchebag, hasn't done shit. And they're going to fuck up my deal with so-and-so because they can't get it together.
1 (22m 4s):
Oh no. Oh no, no. We're, we're in a post George Floyd murder. post-MI too situation. And as much as we want to pretend that maybe we aren't, those things actually happened. So we are internalizing them as women and people of color and other community. And, and even though white dudes are internalizing it when they're not dumb. Right. So they're now getting called on shit a little bit more. Even if it's not fully, there's a friction that has developed that can't be ignored that people are like, no, you can't behave like this. So we're going to unattach you. But without feedback, they just could think they're unattached because oh, I'm just being canceled. Right,
2 (22m 43s):
Right, right, right. Right. Well, and also I've heard people say before, there's no human resources in Hollywood. Like there's never, never know. Yeah. Which is, and I think that's what the unions have tried to get their arms around. And maybe as time goes by, there will be a broader reach. But in the meantime, I mean, yeah, we wouldn't, you mentioned me too. We wouldn't have the me too movement with people. We're, we're never going to be brave enough to come forward. So it's ultimately always a really, it always ends up to be a good thing, you know, more information and more self-awareness. And actually I was mentioning to you that I recently discovered that show that everybody's already watched the bear, which I think is so good.
2 (23m 29s):
And one of the little plot lines that I really appreciate is just this idea that the restaurant is being run the old fashioned way, which people have a strong affinity to and nostalgia for. And I'm sure, you know, in this fictional story, I'm sure people come home from college and they got to go to that place, whatever, but the food wasn't as good as it could be. And the organization wasn't as good as it could be. And the people who stayed on through the new transition, the character that you auditioned for, she learns that she loves this new way. You know, at first she rejects it and she don't tell me to call everybody a chef and don't right.
2 (24m 14s):
And then, and then she, she, her life actually gets better because there's a structure and a discipline that is imposed on her that she rejects at first
1 (24m 25s):
And also gives her a voice, ultimately. So like This, you, if you can't beat them, join them goes both ways. Right? So like, if you can't beat them, join them in a patriarchy. I did that for most of my life. Like, I'll just do whatever they say. And I'll just, I'll just pretend everything's fine and, and fit in where I get it in this system. But then it also works for, wait a minute, wait a minute. When there's a new system that could behoove me, can I get in there? Can I change? Can I adapt? Can I grow? And, and, and it is so hard to grow and off the air, I will tell you about some cheesemaker gossip that I have about my own life that I won't share on this platform, but I will share with you, but it's basically, can I, what does it take for people to adapt own their shit and grow?
1 (25m 15s):
And even when it's going to benefit them, it can be fucking torture. If first it is horrible. And to pretend that it's not hard is fucking bullshit, right? To say like, oh, just adapt. Like, no, no, no, no, no. That's what I said about like this showrunner who could be any number of 500 show runners, if not 5,000, what I would like to do is have a system where we say, listen, dude, these are the reasons you're being unattached from this project, whoever it is, whether it's a man or a woman, these are the reasons, this is what we've noticed. This is why it's not working for us. Like you said, right? Like you said about feedback.
1 (25m 55s):
This is, what's not working for us. And it's the end of the road for us, but all is not lost because here are some, you can tell me to shove them on my ass, but here in my expertise are some things that can be done to change the game here, to change how we're doing this. If you want those resources, if you don't see you later, if you do so there's I think,
2 (26m 19s):
So it will all whether or not any one individual chooses to face these types of things. It's not that it's material, but these things will change. I mean, you know, because, you know, if you think this person's a dish, like you're not the only one, lots of people think that somebody eventually down the line, why not be the beneficiary of, you know, standing up for and saying this isn't right.
1 (26m 45s):
Right. And I also believe like, I, I, someone was like, well, why are you the person to do this or to like, make these changes? And I said, because I believe I can write a fucking love story and highlight the good parts of Jeffrey Dahmer. So like, you are talking to someone who actually believes that at their core, people have both good and trickiness in them. And I believe that, and I will die on that hill. So you want someone like me on your side saying, listen, I don't want to just excommunicate you, execute you, whatever the thing you think is I actually care that and think that you're not an evil human being. I just think that you haven't adapted well and you haven't made an effort and people haven't taught you, it's a combo platter.
1 (27m 31s):
And so do you want to work on it? And so we'll see.
2 (27m 36s):
Yeah. I definitely want somebody like you in there to do that. I have kind of a sweet little story about giving feedback. You know, of course, one of the ways that we can always soften feedback is with humor. And I've recently, I've had to tell one of my kids like how to, how to employ and it's manipulative. Okay. But so everything is sort of manipulative. How you employ humor to say the thing that you want to say instead of swallowing it, but, but to soften the blow. And I remember I was assistant directing a play at one time and the director was an older, much older man. And we were in rehearsal and, and mid pause and we were having a conversation, something that was about the script.
2 (28m 21s):
And he says to the room, if you ever really want to know what men think, all you have to do is blah, blah, blah. And I said, what makes you think any of us don't know what men think it is literally everywhere. We, we always
1 (28m 37s):
Hear
2 (28m 38s):
It's all we hear about. And the look on his face, he was maybe a little tiny bit embarrassed, but I could read immediately the look on his face was I never thought
1 (28m 48s):
About right.
2 (28m 50s):
I never thought about it like that. And he subsequent to that referenced that it a few times, like, you know, you said that thing. And I first I felt kinda oof, ouch. But then I thought, oh yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So it works. I mean, it works, you know, it doesn't not work. I guess it doesn't work if you're way too low on the totem pole. And you're talking to somebody who's way too high on the totem pole. But otherwise it does usually work.
1 (29m 16s):
Yeah. And I, I do think that it come, especially like intention is like everything and it will repair. Even if you bumpy bumbly, give someone feedback. Even if your intention is I like genuinely wanted or want, or at some point wanted to have a relationship and a collaboration with you and is what took me out of it. And if there's ever a hope, maybe our time is over. Like you said, the end of the road for us. But if there's ever hope in the future for you to share your gifts and your talents, because I do believe that everyone has those, I really do. And if there's ever a way you want to share those again, this might help you also to like, not Rob people of your goodness.
1 (30m 3s):
Like, and that's why I also get along with grumpy curmudgeons, because what I see is they want just like everybody to be understood and heard, they fucking cannot do it in a way that is not, not grumpy and curmudgeonly. They just can't do it. And so I see in there the desire, and usually they have a strong desire. They just don't know how to get there. And they've like had a shell on for so many years. Now, look, some people are just straight up douche bags and you have to wash your hands and walk the fuck away. That's like that dream I had where someone walked up to me and said, some monsters, you have to kill. I'm walking down the street in my dream.
1 (30m 44s):
And a fucking, I don't being comes up to me and says, whispers, some monsters, you just have to kill. So I get it. Like, there is not, I'm not trying to make peace with Hitler and trying to go on a picnic with his ass. Right. I don't give a fuck. But what I'm trying to do is not create any more. Hitler's like, how can we not do this again? Right.
2 (31m 5s):
Like the insanity with let's stop
1 (31m 7s):
The insanity. If we can, that's going to be my, I realized that like, that's why legacy is so fucking important to me is because I want to record that. I tried to make things better. And usually people do that through their kids or through their work or through, you know what I mean? Like if you don't have kids, it's really hard to figure out like, oh, like what's the record going to be? That I was here.
2 (31m 30s):
Yeah. Right. Yeah.
1 (31m 32s):
I don't want the record to be like, I was, I was too scared to say something to my friend, my partner, my whoever. So I just fucking swallowed it. And then whatever. Anyway, go ahead.
2 (31m 43s):
And by the way, you hear a lot of record keeping going on at funerals. People are like, oh, now that they're dead, we can talk about what an asshole. They weren't. Well, God, that wasn't fair to that person. Why didn't you tell them when they were alive? So
1 (31m 55s):
I
2 (31m 55s):
Really appreciated what you just said about the, the layers and the shell that people that did, some of this behavior is just, and maybe even all of it is really, if you could just unpack it, it's just a defense and the person actually probably wants mostly the same thing that you want. And, and if, and if you can find, and this is, this is always the trick. If you combined a way to say, I really value you, and this is a problem for me, if you can find a way, and I think you said it already, it's about intention. It's about like, what am I really hoping to get out of this interaction? Because what usually ends up happening is the person that makes you so mad. All you want to get out of the interaction is to hurt them, which is not the right way to give the feedback.
2 (32m 38s):
Even if it is true, the way to give the feedback is a strip sandwich. So crack couching, it was like, here's what I think is really great about you. Here's what we're really struggling with. And here's how I think you can change and be better.
1 (32m 51s):
Right? And the other thing is a lot of things I'm learning actually from my husband's job, right? If you've ever listened to this podcast, which I hope you have, you know, that like I struggle with my husband's having a new job thinking he's constantly going to get fired. He's not doing a good enough job. Of course, this is all not about him. And it's about me. But what I realized was, oh, like I have to shift how I look at this, duh. But like, I have to be like, okay, a lot of this is that my husband needs training. Okay. From his boss, not for me. I don't, I'm not as boss training if he's not doing something well, which like recently he had trouble like writing emails. They were like, your emails are a little like abrupt and not like the thing that I learned as a totally fucking neglected child to do, which was write a fucking dope ass email and, and, and really pay attention to how words work he didn't have to do.
1 (33m 44s):
Right. Or didn't do or whatever. It doesn't matter why, but now he's getting training on that. And I'm like, I have to totally rephrase it to, okay, Jen, don't focus on the fact that they're like, Hey, your emails suck, focus on the fact that they're like, here's how to make them better. Can you do it? And he is doing it. He's learning and growing and changing the way he writes emails. So he won't lose his job from this, or probably won't. But like I had to really shift to, okay, what is actually gonna, what is going to change? Like how can we, how is this going to be better? Because where I'm going to is he's going to be fired. Cause the dude can't write a socially acceptable email.
1 (34m 25s):
Well, but their health they're training him that come back to training, we all need fucking training, like how to do shit.
2 (34m 33s):
We made training. And when it comes to giving feedback, you have the, the thing that's hard for all people to do is delay gratification or, you know, to tolerate the pain of the moment, because this is a long game. Changing us. An entrenched system is the longest game possible. It makes me think about like people who built these cathedrals in the 18 hundreds and they were, you know, and it took a hundred years to build. So you go into this project knowing you will never see this finished, right. Only be part of the ladder to get there. But you know, if you can tolerate that and still know that you're, you know, bringing something of value to the table, then it's okay.
2 (35m 15s):
If it takes a hundred years, right. It takes, it takes how long it takes.
1 (35m 19s):
And it's about the process for me and the relationships while you're building the cathedral. And what I learned about myself and other humans, while I'm building the fucking cathedral versus seeing the shit built, right. Seeing the ship built. So anyway, I just really, yeah, I really, I really am experiencing a lot of like things where I'm just like, oh, like what is going to be my mission? Like what is going to be my thing, whether it's business in business or television. Right. Whatever it is, like, how am I going to go about my affairs? Because yeah, I'm very, very interested in make in having this world, if I, you know, leaving this world with some record that I tried to contribute, you know?
2 (36m 5s):
Absolutely. And actually I'm paying such close attention to the victory gardens thing right now, because I just have this feeling, you know, the snap for people who don't know there, there's a big dust up at victory gardens theater in Chicago, which is a very respected theater, which was kind of a little, much smaller, right. When they were in school,
1 (36m 24s):
It was like right above, right. It was right on Lincoln and this little head, those poles in the way it was really. And then it be like this big deal at the biomarkers.
2 (36m 32s):
I am a big deal and it's a very respected theater and they're having problems because even though their board is not all white, they have a white supremacist mentality and I'm quoting the playwright who pulled her play colored water because of the, what, what we've seen so much of in the last two years, which is theater companies getting all, okay, we've got to put a black square on our Instagram and then we've got to have a place that has all black characters and that's all great. It's not anything against that. But if you do that without a system in place to support those black artists, without an understanding of like the ways in which your approaches may be different and how to, how to manage that, it never changes. And I think something about, and maybe it's just because it's like what I'm tuned into, but something about that thing, because she is not the first play right to pull her plate just happened a month ago with Dominique Morisseau, I'm sure it's happened many other times around the country and around the world.
2 (37m 26s):
This is, I feel like this is going to end up to have been the watershed for things, as you say, to actually change. Because I, if I had to guess, I mean, not really knowing anything about the situation, if I had to guess the people, the white supremacists in power over there going, well, our board president is a black man. How could it be? How could we be anything, but you know, aware of all of this stuff
1 (37m 50s):
And the other yeah. And the other, I totally agree. And the other thing I was saying was I was talking about a business thing I'm doing, which I will talk to you off the air. People are like, what the fuck? But I just, I can't wait to tell you, but I can't tell you I air. So I was talking about like, how do we put our own needs in terms of financial needs, paying rent so that you don't end up unhoused, all those things. How do we balance that out? And I was saying, and, and, and my husband said, well, is this something you could do short term for whatever. And I said, but here's the thing you fucking can't own a plantation for two weeks.
1 (38m 31s):
And then be like, and the rest of the month, I'm an abolitionist. We cannot do it. It cannot work. I don't want to sit on the bus with you for five minutes and have an interaction. If it's not going to be on the level and collaborative, I don't give a fuck. So it is not like what we can do short term. Like, can you just stand it for a little bit? And look, if I, maybe if I was in another situation financially, yes. But I don't want to be a part-time plantation owner and be like the rest of the month. I'm cool. That is not what I'm trying. And he was like, oh my God, I never thought of it that way. I'm like, yeah. That's exactly how it feels.
2 (39m 7s):
That's beautiful that we got to put that with a cross stitch that on a pillow. I love that. That's just that you can't be a yeah. And people say like, you can't be a part-time activist. That's something I'm like really trying to wrestle with it. Yeah. I am. I am a part-time activist. I, I really want to level up in the years to come.
4 (39m 35s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound next by Gina <inaudible> for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.