Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling
author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge
thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen.
I have a request.
If you like what we do, please like, subscribe, tell a friend.
It really helps us get this work done.
As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad.
And over the last 20 years, we've developed several
equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs.
If you'd like to find out more about them, go to newtrailslearning.
com.
So without further ado, let's meet today's guest.
Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
Today I have autism Mum and Director of Chats in Virginia, which is an extremely
cutting edge equine assisted outfit.
Megan McGovern, doctor Megan McGovern, and by doctor I don't
mean PhD, I mean physician,
but also as I said, autism mum.
And she has a very interesting story to tell, not dissimilar from mine in
some ways, in terms of being forced to do this out of necessity rather
than because she woke up in the morning saying, well, I want to run a
equine assisted equine therapy unit.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Mm-hmm.
I don't
Rupert Isaacson: think that was ever really on her list of dreams.
However, what she's done with it over the last almost decade has brought our line
of work into the mainstream for medicine.
So, I think we should let Megan talk about this.
Hey Megan, thanks for coming on.
Tell us who you are, what you do.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
I am an internal medicine physician, and I previously was an active duty
Navy doctor before, like I served my time and got out and then I've been
in, in private practice ever since.
And my first son, his name is Cole, and he's 13 now, but
he's the one that's autistic.
And then I have neurotypical twin boys, Sebastian and Ashton.
They're eight.
And Cole was not responding to the normal therapies that are
recommended by physicians, whether they're family practice, pediatrician
developmentalist, neurologist.
He, he wasn't, or as a matter of fact, I, he continued to regress as
I added on therapy after therapy.
He got diagnosed at age four, and by age five he became failure to thrive.
Pretty much fully nonverbal.
He might say five or 10 things in a day, but half of 'em were the same thing.
May have been like go I remember go.
But and then they threatened a feeding tube.
They offered me inpatient care at a major medical center about an hour from here.
And things got pretty bad by the age of five.
I read all the books from I.
Cleveland Clinic and Harvard and all that stuff.
And I was already doing all those things.
And then I read Rupert's book, the Horseplay, and it was the only book,
hi, been, he was like the seventh or eighth book in and it was the only
one, like within 20, 25 pages, I was like, I've gotta contact this man.
And I happened to be on vacation and I emailed him from the plane before it
took off and eagerly awaited a response.
And then it took cold to new trails in October with my husband.
And, you know, that's sort of a wrap.
That's sort of how it all started.
Rupert Isaacson: Let's just dial back a little bit.
When you say you tried all the therapies or the recommended therapies and Cole
regressed, can you be a bit more specific?
What did you try?
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: And then how and why do you think he regressed?
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Well I think that he was just one of the many autistic children that
don't necessarily respond to the few therapies that are, you know,
proven supposedly in clinical trials.
But he was in special education in the school system.
He was getting speech and OT at the school.
He was getting speech and OT privately.
He was getting a, B, a, A, B, A to the point that our insurance did
not cover a, b, A at that time.
So we were paying about $5,000 a month for a BA, which made him, made him purely
upset and pissed off like the whole time.
I mean, he'd stand there and have, be made to brush his teeth for 30
minutes and if, I mean, it was just, it was just not a great scenario.
It, he was I know that it can help m many children, but it
just, it was not helping Cole.
But we, you know, when I say we gave it our best effort, you know, my
husband was working tons of extra shifts to pay for the A BA because
that was pretty much the only thing we hadn't been doing prior to getting
diagnosed at four, we were already doing speech, OT and the special education.
We also added on Brain Balance, which is a I thought a pretty well researched
neuroscience based program, program.
And we did that for like two and a half years.
I drove him, you know, 45 minutes there and back twice a week.
I also then had him in a feeding clinic that was an hour and a
half hour-ish away once a week when he became Failure to Thrive.
Did that for two years.
So I was doing all of those things and he continued to worse.
Him and I, I will say that occupational therapy, that has
definitely helped him over time.
I've actually followed and kept the same occupational therapist the entire time.
He's only been with one person, and that has definitely helped, but like early on
it wasn't, it wasn't getting him anywhere.
It wasn't, it was not helping the overall picture.
Rupert Isaacson: Why do you think he regressed and worsened
under these therapies to the point of needing a feeding tube?
And what do you think was going on with that?
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Well, I mean, one of the major, there were a lot of, there were a lot of things
going on then, you know, he would have meltdowns all the time, and at that point
we didn't know why or what, what was, you know, but it was like he would have
a meltdown for 45 minutes, couldn't do anything about it, and then you were okay.
You know, finally it was okay and then, and then it would
happen again like an hour later.
It was just like you were in a war zone all the time.
One of the things that was going on with school was he would not eat at school.
I mean, what, what kid can like function throughout the day and actually like,
have any progress when you won't eat.
But he wouldn't eat for other people, it just, his eating
just got more and more narrow.
It had to be with the exact person at the exact right time and the exact.
Car seat or chair.
I mean, if, if something was off he then he just wouldn't eat and
he surely wouldn't eat at school.
We, we even tried so you to always wanna get chili from Chili's restaurant,
the grilled cheese and french fries.
So I even literally like sort getting that to go and then taking that to school.
They even were nice enough and gave us, they knew us so well
because we would take him there.
Cassie actually would take him there like every day after school.
My
Rupert Isaacson: caregiver.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Yep.
She would take him to Chili's from school so that he would finally, finally eat
and then they like gave us the exact red baskets that they used the paper so that
we could try and mimic it at school.
And he just, he just, he just wouldn't also, you know, he, he
took longer to potty train like you mostly hear, but he did very well.
I mean, he was potty trained by four, four and a half, which, you
know, I think that's reasonable.
But, you know, he'd be at school and they'd tell me he peed his pants.
Yeah.
It just was I just think it was the environment, you know, they do
their best, but I'm not putting any school system down or sha you know,
I just, they have limited resources.
They have limited they have limited help and I just don't think it
was the right environment for him.
Yeah, I, I get phone calls all the time.
Oh, he bit somebody again.
Oh, he won't come back into the classroom after you tried to transition.
I think the, the, the just the overall environment was too stressful for him.
And then also just not eating all day.
I mean, who, who can, who can function like that, you know?
Yeah.
I also found out like, I mean, this is what it is, but being in a specialized
education classroom, you know, you have various special needs kids in there.
Some are screaming all day, some are banging their heads all day.
Some are, some are aggressive, you know, and, and I found out after
the fact that you know, that there were some aggressive kids with him.
You know, he, he would come home and he'd have marks on him, and the teachers
wouldn't know where it was from.
Like, you know, I think one of the reasons why when he transitioned to say
music and then he'd have to go back into his main room, I think he didn't wanna
go back in because of the, the high stimulation that he was getting in there.
That was just too much for him.
I don't know.
It was, it was, it was very, very miserable.
And, and he could never, it's not like I could say Cole, you know,
how was your day or what happened?
I mean, there's there, there's nothing like, you know, so, you know,
sending your kid to a school where you don't know what's happening, you
don't know how they're responding to when he, when he bites one of
the teachers or bites somebody else.
Like it is just very I.
Just always on edge, always feeling like, I don't know if I should be doing this.
Maybe I should keep him home.
Maybe I need to figure out how to homeschool him, even though I am a
full-time career person and wanted nothing to do with homeschooling.
Not that I think anything bad about it, I just, I didn't wanna give up
my career to, to homeschool him, but it turns out I didn't have to.
But, you know, that was like a very big fear for me then to, to figure
out how the heck was I gonna do that?
And then when he turned five, another thing that could've, you know, made
him go worse, I don't know, was, was that the twins were born when he
was five, so I'm sure that was, you know, potentially stressful for him.
Yeah.
Not right now.
Cole, go read a book.
No.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: So, okay, so school, I, I can understand this because Rowan, my
son, went through a very similar thing.
He began to, you know, cry as I was driving him up to school,
he began to really, really, really not want to go in there.
And it got worse.
And then after we took a break from the local, I.
Special ed school.
We tried again at sort of the Hippiest school we could find in
a lovely naturey place in Austin.
And he just, at that point, just flat out, he was verbal enough to say he took off
all his clothes, rolled around in the dirt and said, I want to be a countryside boy.
And that was even with him being sent with a caregiver.
And I was like, dude, I hear you loud and clear.
Alright, we'll do it.
And of course we'd never look back, but like you, I was like,
I do not wanna homeschool.
Yeah.
But I kind of did.
But like you, and we'll get listeners, we'll get there that
you can kind of homeschool and not homeschool at the same time.
It's actually possible to hit this really interesting middle ground, but we'll,
we'll, we'll get there in a minute.
So just hold on for that.
Let's go to the a BA.
Why do you think the therapists were so pushy with him and so uncompromising?
Why, why do you think they were not willing to work around and take
a less pressure-filled approach?
What was going on with it?
Dr. Megan McGavern:
I'm not sure, but I do know that that we were getting therapists
that were barely even trained.
Like, it was in, at least in our area there were not, there was a long
wait list, and then you'd get in with somebody and they'd say, oh yeah,
they have somebody come out for you.
And then and then he, and then the person that would come out, like
literally just started, literally just finished their training.
And I, I just don't think they had the experience to I don't
think they had the experience.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
But it seems that, I mean, 'cause we went through this as well with
Rowan, that we had a very experienced a, BA therapist, for example.
But this person was not only unwilling to modify anything for R no matter
as you, you know, you were talking about how distressed Cole was getting,
you know, Rowan would literally try to climb through the wall.
And I remember thinking, wow, I'm a horse trainer.
If I am in a ramp him with a horse, and the horse is trying to climb out over
the fence to get away from me, I will at least change something that I'm doing.
Because just from a purely selfish perspective, I could
get killed in that situation.
But that's such an extreme reaction that it's telling one loud and clear that
something needs to change, something needs to be modified, something, you
know, and I remember when we would suggest this, the, we would get a
very aggressive pushback rather than.
Well, okay.
I dunno, your kid, you know, I'm not terribly experienced.
What do you suggest?
Or can we talk about this together?
And there was no allowance of the family, the parent, the
kid, to have any kind of voice.
So that, I can imagine that, you know, some of these people coming out to you
sure we're young and inexperienced they're also human beings with some common sense.
What do you think was preventing them from just being able to exercise that
compassion and common sense and just,
Dr. Megan McGavern:
I think that they were just trying to follow the protocol of what they
were supposed to do and what they were learn, what, what they were taught.
And I don't think they knew how I, I, I don't, yeah.
To be honest, I, I think that a lot A, BCBA gets paid a lot of
money compared to like some other things in the medical field.
And I think a lot of people look at that and like, oh,
well I can get trained quickly.
It's like 10, $12 more per hour than what I would be able to make was
with a different type of medical job.
And I, and I honestly, I see that frequently just as a physician.
So I'm not even sure the people that are.
You know, coming in that profession are necessarily people that really
have the heart for what they're doing.
You know, I think it, it, it pays well, I mean, it does.
It's a well paying job and they train you and it's a quick doesn't take
as, I mean, I, again, I'm not trying to, I don't wanna, I don't wanna
put down a BA at all because I know plenty of kids where it has totally
helped them and they are, you know, fully functional now and independent.
I'm, I'm not trying to, this, this is just my experience with it for about two
and a half years that that's all I had.
We had multiple people come because they could, I don't know, it
was just not a great experience.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
So then he ends up on a feeding tube and he
Dr. Megan McGavern:
does not, he does not.
Rupert Isaacson: Sorry, he ended up on as failure to thrive.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
He was, yep.
He lost eight pounds at a, at five years of age.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
That's a lot at that age.
Yeah.
And then you're headed, you're looking into, you're sort of looking down the
barrel of a, of a feeding tube basically.
Then you came out to new trails and I remember when we first met that two
things really stood out, obviously, apart from the, you know, just how big of a.
Struggle you were going through?
One was, when I first met Cole was I remember thinking,
wow, this is a tough cookie.
This is somebody who, I dunno, I dunno if I can do anything here.
And I remember being pretty upfront about that and just be like, I, I
don't know, but let's give it a try.
At least the environment will be different.
This we know and that there'll be certain things that can happen with the horse.
This we know.
But I was rather worried that he would hand me my ass.
And, uh, but the other thing which I remember you saying to me, and correct me
if I'm wrong, was that you had actually been told, or at least advised not to
give physical or to withhold physical affection from him if he didn't comply.
I remember that being said, and I remember thinking,
I can't compute why any sort of mental health professional for children
would say something like that.
And that, that brought me up short.
Because I had also had these bad experiences, the, the same experiences
as you with a, b, a and some other.
Behavioral types of, of therapy.
And at that point I remember thinking, ah,
the paradigm needs to shift because it's as if people are saying the kids
are naughty as if they're making some sort of decision here to be bad as
if they can actually understand and follow top down instruction and are
just somehow deciding not to, which means that the entire landscape is
just being so completely misunderstood.
Yeah.
You know,
and you know, I remember thinking, gosh, you know, if, if even a
Navy physician can be kind of pushed into that corner a little bit,
then it just shows the power of
the influence that people can wield over people that are desperate.
And that made me sad and it also made me angry and it made
me determined to not give up.
Can you give us in your words, like you were at trials for five days,
I believe, and this was of course, a radically different environment.
You'd had to take this very, very difficult.
Human from Virginia to Texas.
That's a, a long way and into the unknown.
You arrive, there's a bunch of hippies, you know, with ponies in the fields.
What were you, what are you, what were your impressions of those five days?
I,
Dr. Megan McGavern:
I remember
so this is what I vividly remember was first day, I think we talked at
the, towards the end of the morning or something, and I remember that I
was so overwhelmed by, and I started to well up with tears and, you know,
and I was telling you that I was doing speech therapy and occupational
therapy and special education.
He was getting that at the school.
And I'm doing brain balance and I'm, I'm going to the feeding clinic and
I don't, in the brain balance stuff was not just two days a week there.
It was also every day at home I had to do all these exercises and have them
smell these different oils and have them listen to this certain vibration.
I mean, I mean it was like my life was consumed by all of this.
And you know, I just remember like you saying, it's okay to.
Like, take, take a step back and reevaluate and
maybe all this isn't needed.
And there's a different way to sort of look at it.
And then I remember also that first morning where we were, there was a
swing set there and what's the name?
Vonda I can't remember the girl's name.
But she.
He didn't wanna go on the swing set, and I didn't really know what
movement method was at that point.
And, and she was just trying to follow the child, right?
And I'm like, Cole loves the swing set.
Come on Cole.
You would go on the swing.
Come on here, take this swing.
You know?
Meanwhile, I'm supposed to be like, I didn't know what movement method was
at this point where, and, and Vonda was just trying to follow him and
f you know, and so I was like, no, no, he really likes to swing here.
Come on, cope.
And I put him on the swing, you know, and I, and then I realized
like by the end of the week, I was like, oh gosh, Megan, you're stupid.
You're doing the exact wrong thing.
And then that same morning, and I still like, will post a video of this
on social media when it comes up, but he went on the horse and, and the
biggest smile like that you can imagine from cheek to cheek, and he laughed.
And I mean, my God, I never, like, I hardly ever heard it.
I hardly ever saw a smile.
I hardly ever heard the laugh.
I mean, he was just always like, it was just hell, like all the
time and sadness, you know, you couldn't do any normal stuff.
And, and I was just like, oh my gosh.
Oh my, you know, we and I were like, and I, on the video,
I'm like, look, he's smiling.
Look, he's laughing.
You know, like I was just like, you know, the mom voice
like screaming loud like I do.
And and I was just like, oh my gosh.
And then the next day it was like the same thing.
So we, we came in the morning for five days straight and it was
like three hour sessions, I think.
And so by the end of the second day.
That session we called, we called home and canceled a BA.
It was just like a clear, I, you know, I felt empowered by you saying, well, you
know, it's okay to try and change it.
Just because this isn't working doesn't mean there's not something else.
Or maybe, you know, pull back on some of these things and
just focus on this one thing.
It doesn't have to be all this like 7,000 things that you're
trying to do all the time.
And and so I felt like empowered that, yeah, you know, I already was
following my gut, but I was, I was so worried that if I wasn't doing all
these treatments that, you know, are supposed to help that, then what if
that, what if he wouldn't get somewhere?
Because I stopped one of them because I felt like it wasn't working.
So I just sort of needed somebody else to say that to me.
And then, yeah, so we called home that afternoon and canceled a BA, which was
like a big, that was a big decision to make after, you know, 'cause you felt
like that's what you're just told over and over you know, to do a, BA to help
with all the behavioral part of it.
So, that was like the biggest things I remember from, from that from that week.
Rupert Isaacson: And then what happened when you did go home?
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Well, funny enough, so when, when I, when I came home, the plan was, you know,
always a plan, but the plan never happens.
The plan was that we were gonna take him outta school come January, so
we were gonna have him finish his, he was just starting first grade.
He'd only been in it for like six weeks.
And so I'm like, okay, this is gonna gimme some time.
You know, I wanna prepare, I wanna find people to help me implement
movement method and implement a movement method program here.
And what happens, like, about a week and a half after we get back, he, I
get a phone call from the school again, he bit a teacher and the teacher's
pregnant because, you know, he didn't wanna go back into the classroom again.
It was like a transition thing.
And it was like mid-morning, I'm at work, I'm in the middle of seeing patients and
you know, it's just like, you feel bad.
And I'm like, I'm so sorry, you know, but at the same time it's like,
enough is enough and I'm not gonna swear, but enough is effing enough.
And I called my husband and I'm crying and I'm like, done.
Done.
Like, we can't do the same way.
I can't, I can't get another phone call.
I can't do this anymore.
He's not okay there.
This isn't okay.
I'm gonna take him out.
And my husband agreed with me and then all of a sudden.
I take 'em out and there was no preparation.
And then I call you and I'm flipping out and I'm like, this was like a Thursday.
And I call Rupert and I'm like, and oh, then you're talking about, well, there's a
whole books on unschooling, the schooling, and you could go to your favorite places
like Florida and whatever, and teaching about the ocean and all this stuff.
And I'm like, I didn't know you well enough then.
But I was like, I'm gonna murder you ripper.
I'm gonna murder you.
I wanna plan, I wanna plan Now.
I am a preparer.
I'm Type A.
Like I don't wanna hear about unschooling.
I need to know, like, how do I figure out the curriculum?
How do I blah, blah, blah.
And I was like, freaking out.
And your phone call was just like trying to get me to like
totally get out of that mindset.
And, and it was, you were all like, correct about all that.
But it was very hard to just have this big open, oh, what the hell am I doing now?
Like, oh my gosh, what am I doing now?
Like, how, how am I gonna do this?
You know?
And also mind you, at the same time I had n newborn while they were
like 12 months old twins taking care of and still working full time.
So I mean, I was just like, I don't know how the hell I'm gonna do this.
But that's pretty much what happened not long after I went to New Trails.
Rupert Isaacson: Now you did have one secret weapon at home.
You had a, a very important person who's still I.
Very, very big in Cole's life.
You had Cassie, right?
You, you had a caregiver who was by happy accident, by chance, by
God, whatever, but devoted when you had to pull Cole out of school.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: You presumably also, you didn't just ring me,
you also sat down with Cassie.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Talk us through that conversation because both of you must
have been thinking shit, you know, okay.
What are we gonna do?
This is sort of outside of both our experiences, but here it is.
Alright.
You know, talk, talk, talk us through a little bit that, that Well,
Dr. Megan McGavern:
I, I mean, I would say first she was very supportive and she was also, you know,
she was also experiencing the same thing I was going through with him and seeing him,
you know, it was just, it was very sad.
It was very hard.
And, you know, I think she just she stayed supportive, but that
wasn't a hard thing at all.
The harder part was, at that time, I was still very private about his diagnosis.
Like, my family still didn't even know, because for me, I'm
like, oh, I'm a smart doctor.
You know, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna implement all these therapies.
Certainly by this birthday, he's gonna be talking again.
I kept, you know, not fix him in, you know, I'm gonna say that in quotes,
but like, I'm gonna fix the issue.
Like, I, I'm doing, I'm, I'm, I'm reading everything.
I'm trying to, and I kept thinking, oh, we'll, surely buy six.
Surely, honestly, surely buy three.
Then every birthday that came, it was just Saturn and Saturn.
So I didn't, I didn't really have the desire or I thought it would be a
bad idea because if family found out from me advertising that I'm looking
for, you know, someone, a homeschool assistant that's interested in
being trained in movement method and stuff, that then they would find out.
And I just wasn't ready to tell.
I just wasn't ready to tell 'em yet.
I was, you know, I, I am still a very private person, but this,
all this has had to make me.
Be very public.
And that was a, that was a difficult transition.
But now I realize like how alone I was then.
And I have these moms that come out, you know, especially on sensory Saturdays.
I, I spend a lot of time with the parents there while their
kids are enjoying the event.
And I'm just like, everything that they're saying, especially like the
newly, you know, diagnosed kids with their moms and how lonely they feel
and how so upsetting, you know, the best friend, their kids neurotypical.
But, you know, we can't, we can't do anything together, you know, whatever.
And I, I, I realize now how lonely that was and, you know, probably
would've gone, maybe I wouldn't have felt so sad if, if I had opened up
to a bigger support group, but that just wasn't, just wasn't on my radar.
This is one of the
Rupert Isaacson: big, this is one of the big issues and I think anyone
who's working in our field because you and I are colleagues now knows
this, which is the, the big kicker is loneliness as you say, and isolation.
Because if you've got the kid who takes the shit in the supermarket
while you're at, you know, standing in line it, that you can only do that
so many times with everybody looking at you before you start not going to
the supermarket if you can avoid it.
And so it's, and you know, at most therapy places, the, the
parents don't meet each other.
So there, there isn't any possibility for community or connection.
And the online community is okay, well, they're better than
nothing, but it's not the same.
So you,
Dr. Megan McGavern:
oh, may I interject there too also I did go to like a s like a support
thing where like they were met at Panera and we, and I went one time
Rupert Isaacson: we being your husband, right?
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Yes.
We uhhuh and I felt we
Rupert Isaacson: listeners he's Vietnamese.
American.
Mm-hmm.
So his name we is from there.
So if you're just wondering, you know, if that's an exotic sounding
name, that's where it comes from.
Okay.
So you, you're at Panera and
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Yeah, we're at Panera.
And then it was just like, as soon as they found out we were
physicians, ah, I don't know.
I just, you know, then there, there were medical questions being asked of
me and all this, and, and then I was no longer there as the parent, right.
I was there as, oh, well what do you, you know, what do you think about,
they was not supportive at all.
I never went back again, so, you know, so, I just I just felt even more
violated from a privacy standpoint because now all these people in
this particular area know that Dr.
McGovern, whose office is right there her son's alter.
I don't know.
I mean, there's nothing wrong with it.
I just, I just felt so private about it then.
Well,
Rupert Isaacson: as you say that, that that's, it's, it's all about timing.
One, one is ready for, yeah.
Ready for emotionally when one's ready for it and not before.
What can you say?
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, I hear you.
So, okay, so you take the big step, you, you stop the a BA,
you implement movement method.
Presumably it's working or you wouldn't have kept going with it.
Oh
Dr. Megan McGavern:
yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So what were the first things?
'cause at this stage there's no horses involved, so listeners don't worry.
Horses are gonna come into the picture and they're gonna come
into the picture in a big way.
But early on, you know, picture, this is suburban America, it's, it's a nice suburb
and yes, sure the countryside isn't far away, but it's, this is not farm country.
And so Megan, you are there and talk us through a little bit your, the issues
you would have at home and talk us through a little bit what you did with
Movement Method in those early stages.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Okay.
Well, so one of the first things that happened after that was that you
sent Julia and Julian to me and they stayed in my house for three weeks.
Yeah.
And so they basically helped me set up, you know, they went to local places.
They, they started it and started taking coal every morning to some nature area.
I, I spent, you know, a good bit of money, like getting a membership at the
Virginia Living Museum when, where I took you one time and he used to, you know,
he doesn't go there as much anymore, but that used to be a very common spot.
And you know, just money on, like, setting up the homeschooling stuff and what, what,
what I needed to get and all of that.
And that, that was very helpful.
And then I just was trying to hire people sort of on the down low just
because again, I didn't want it to be.
Publicly advertised.
And I went through a couple people, Cassie was sort of overseeing you know, what was
going on and involved and, and knowing, you know, knowing what was going on.
And so, you know, pretty much he'd have sessions every morning and
that's still what he does to date.
He has, he has sessions every morning pretty much from like, say eight to 12,
where he's, you know, outside somewhere or, or you know, whatever, whatever it is.
But his, his session is pretty much somewhere between eight and nine to to 12.
And then when the horse got added in, then there was me in the
afternoon, every afternoon after work.
So it was like twice a day kind of thing.
But,
Rupert Isaacson: But what did you notice?
What, what were the improvements with the movement method?
Like why did you think, yeah, okay, this is working, I'm gonna stick with this.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Well, I started number one, being able to actually realize that he
knows things, like to academically measure what he knows, because there
was none of that honestly going on in his special education classroom.
Just 'cause I, again, I think they were, you know, there's hot what, six, seven
kids with their own in individual IEPs and, just trying to put out fires all day.
So I, I saw him like being able to, you know, I learned what
he, what he likes with learning.
For example, he loves puzzles.
I knew that beforehand, but he loves Velcro.
Like if you laminate answers and have Velcro dots and then you pick
the answer, like you hold up two answers and then you let him pick
the answer and put it on the thing.
That's how I started knowing.
Oh, he knows who that, that's Jacque Csau and not Theodore Roosevelt.
You know, like for every subject.
Also magnets.
He loves magnets.
So, you know, when it's that age, you know, first grade, they still
have tons of those kinds of things.
We used Oriental Trading Company.
I still use them a lot.
Not necessarily for schooling anymore, but that is a super cheap
resource that has all those kinds of things and different ways to learn.
But I, I started basically individualizing his curriculum.
I do that every year now.
Like it's just become that routine of my summer.
I order everything that I wanna do in June, and then I, I go through it and
then I have curriculum planning meetings until he starts again in September.
So I started seeing him basically.
Tell me that he knew stuff.
Not, not necessarily verbally, the verbal part didn't come until the horse, but
as far as like him not getting upset or the meltdowns all the time or all
of that that started to calm down.
And then again, academically, I started to be able to know that like
he did know what I was asking him.
He just couldn't verbally say it or did, couldn't do
Rupert Isaacson: feel heard and seen.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Say that again.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you think he started to feel heard and seen?
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Yeah, I think so.
I think definitely taking him out of that environment, the environment
that he was not doing well in.
Yes.
I, I, I think so.
And it was also helpful because, I mean, the eating thing was still going on, but
it was, you know, starting to get better.
But, you know, it wasn't like he was going all day without eating anymore.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
And I remember when I made my first visit up to you it was not as severe as
it had been in Texas, but it was still
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Pretty extreme.
You know, you have the pool, you have the pool in the backyard, and he was in
it for hours at a time, maximum energy.
And I remember looking at him and going, wow, that was the energy he
was taking to a special ed classroom.
You know, just Right.
No way they'd have been able to handle that, like in the, with the
best will in the world, you know?
Right.
But you know, being able to teach through that suddenly.
That not being something you're fighting, that being something you can go with.
The other thing I remember was when I was there, him disappearing into a
neighbor's house across the street naked and just sort of wandering through.
And you know that even though this is south of the Mason Dixon line, Virginia,
you know, it's people are gun happy and property proud and all of that stuff.
And it's so, it's, you know, listeners who are not American.
It's, it's, it's dangerous.
It's dangerous to enter other people's property oh
Dr. Megan McGavern:
yeah.
Even
Rupert Isaacson: sometimes as a kid.
And it's equally, can be equally dangerous to go and retrieve them.
Yeah.
You know, and I remember you were still going through that, you know, but
things were clearly better and Right.
He was, you know, exhibiting, I remember, you know, you were really
following his Thomas the tank engine obsession and beginning to teach him
literacy through that and so on and
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Right, right.
I remember thinking,
Rupert Isaacson: thinking, wow, you know, she's really on it.
But then you flummoxed me because then I was like, okay, well this is good.
This is definitely, you know, 75% better than what we were seeing in Texas.
But then you, you call me up and say, yeah, but Rupert,
there's got to be horses.
And I'm like, well, why?
Because you know, this oxytocin and BDNF effect that we're talking about,
you know, for neuroplasticity, you, you know, you can get this without horses.
And remember, you know, most of the time with RO and I wasn't on the horse, you
know, I was having to implement what's now called movement method at home.
You know, so even if Rowan was really into the horse, you know, I still had
to do all this stuff off the horse and, you know, you're not a horseman.
So it's kind of irrelevant really, because, you know, we don't, there's
no, there's no horse boy place in your neighborhood and okay, you could
try some other therapeutic riding stuff, but chances are, you know, it
won't necessarily be an environment where they'll allow him to be him.
But you wouldn't take no for an answer.
Why?
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Because I saw, I saw how he responded on the horse.
That's why I saw how he I hadn't seen him like that with pretty much anything
else except for Thomas the train.
But that, that's why I just felt like this was my shot at potentially getting
him to speak and I was gonna do whatever I needed to do to give him that shot.
Rupert Isaacson: So listeners, I want you to put yourself in my shoes.
My, me as Rupert right now.
So, Megan, as you, you can imagine, is a, is a, is a strong
personality and and, and, and, and somewhat of, of, of an achiever.
And so I begin to get communication saying, yeah, but look, Rupert,
I've gotta get a horse and I've gotta, you know, get this together.
And I'm like, no, Meghan, you don't because
you, you don't know from horses.
And this is decades and decades and decades of experience needed, and
particularly for this kind of work, you know, the stakes are so high and you know,
no, it's gonna cost you, it's gonna cost you ridiculous money and you still won't
know if you are because you have to set up your own show, you know, and you dunno
how to, and you, you, you'll, you won't even know, you know, you won't know how
to hire the right staff and you won't know if they're even doing the right job.
And they'll, they'll walk all over you.
'cause horsey people are like that and it's just not safe, you know?
So, no, no, I'm sorry.
We're gonna stick with movement method.
And I remember several of these communications.
What?
And, and I was being pretty reasonable with that.
I.
And movement method is, you know, we, we, we've, we've had obviously, you
know, a lot of success with that, with, with, with people who've never, you
know, touched a horse, seen a horse.
So again, the equine assisted side.
And you know, I have great faith in your decision now with
everything that's happened.
But what was going on there was some, it was, it wasn't just what you'd observed.
I think there must be something in your gut.
What was going on in your gut that made Oh,
Dr. Megan McGavern:
my gut, my gut was telling me I needed to do this and 'cause I was
Rupert Isaacson: giving you, because you knew that, what I was telling
you when I was trying to talk you out of it, you knew that that was truth.
You knew that that was you trying to look up your best interest.
Right?
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Yeah.
But I mean, my perspective is, well, I, I can handle it.
I, I can, I can do it.
I will get the people, it's all the horse
Rupert Isaacson: people chuckling as they drive listening to this.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Right, right.
I mean, I felt, I felt like I, I could do, I mean, I don't know, I've, I've,
I've accomplished a lot in my life.
I mean, I'm not gonna speak about myself here, but I, there was no
reason that I couldn't do this when I've done other things.
That, that was my bottom line.
And if this is gonna make it so that my kid can talk or potentially become
independent or potentially go to college one day, I mean, it, there
was, it was not even a question.
There was, there was no, there was no question.
I wasn't, I never doubted my thought about that.
I was following my gut instinct and I knew my ability to achieve,
and that was the end of it.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
It, it's the only on
Dr. Megan McGavern:
my side of you're asking me like, what, what was I, yeah, yeah.
Why was I still, that was my side of it, like how I was viewing it,
Rupert Isaacson: because, you know, I was being absolutely upfront.
I was like, it is gonna cost you more money than you can possibly imagine
it's going because you know you are gonna have to learn from scratch.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Right?
Rupert Isaacson: And
what happened was, listeners I was adamant that we weren't gonna do it.
Because I was like, I, I can't put my name to that.
You know, it, it, it is, it'll just go horribly wrong, you know?
No, it's this, you've gotta remember, this is also a thousand
miles away from where I live.
It's not like it's just down the road and I can, you know, pop in and
make sure everything's going okay.
But what happened was, you talked me into it, Meghan and I still to this day,
can't believe that I got talked into it.
And then what?
So what I said was, you know, all right, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna level with you.
This is pretty much what it'll cost you if you do this.
'cause you're gonna have to buy land.
You're gonna have to, you know, you're gonna have to look at all that.
Eventually I.
Because you're gonna have to control the environment.
You can't just, like, okay, you might start by boarding a horse
somewhere, but you, you'll not be, you know, you won't find that those
people are tolerant of your kid.
And even if they are, they won't know how to create a safe environment for him.
Right.
They, they won't not run the tractor when he's around, or the leafblower or
the chainsaw or the put up the dog or whatever, or, you know, let alone what
other people are doing with horses.
And him running into the arena, you know, naked and they're not gonna, they're
not gonna be sympathetic, you know?
Yeah.
And then I thought, well, but if you do do this, the only way, the only way
it can work is if the horse has been trained by us and it's, and not just
trained by us, but has been with us for a long time, and we like, really, so
I thought we actually have to give up one of our best horses for this a horse
that I know can operate without us.
And as anyone listening knows, and as you now know, Meghan, those
horses are like gold, you know?
Right.
Don't let them go.
I don't sell horses.
You are the only person I've ever sold a horse to.
I have donated some horses.
I've, I've loaned some horses to be school master horses in other places, but, you
know, taken back if I need to or, but I've never, ever sold a horse before and.
I remember me and Ana going, you know, can we even, could we do without Hanya?
This is the only horse that was cool enough, quiet enough to know that, you
know, and well-trained enough in the collection to give the oxytocin effect
for that brings speech, but okay.
So we did it and against my better judgment, we did it.
And can you talk us through what happened from when you first
got Hanya to where you are now?
Because the thing I want you guys to know, listeners, is that Megan
is in no way my client, Megan, is in every way, my colleague.
And we, we meet as equals on this.
But as you can imagine, it was a steep learning curve.
So, so take us through that steep learning curve, Megan.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Okay, so she arrived April of 2018 and I've, I boarded her locally and hired
a horse person, hired another like teacher home assistant type person and
Rupert Isaacson: who we trained in our methods.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Right, right.
Sorry.
And then we started taking him out every day.
Rupert Isaacson: Not that it did any good.
Sorry.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
What's that?
Rupert Isaacson: Not what that it did any good.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Yeah, right.
Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did.
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Dr. Megan McGavern:
And we, and then we started taking him out every day and teaching him in the
woods, hanging things up on the trees, like his schooling and everything.
And I mean, just everything started to change.
I still actually have all the notebooks for years probably.
I have probably four years worth of notebooks.
I would track everything he said at every session.
And then if it was sessions where I wasn't there, like the morning
sessions I would have my, the, the people working for me track it as well.
So, I mean, I literally have the hardcore data of the words he was saying.
And it went from, you know, 25 words in an hour on the horse
to 50 to 200 to, you know, 400.
It was, it was just, it was a clear, this was, this was it.
This was making him become verbal.
On top of that, I paid to have a sand arena built at that, placed
with that we were boarding.
And I really think that that is why he was able to walk on sand
for the first time, like shortly.
I think that was like within a, that was the same.
Yeah, that was just a few months after he was riding Hanya.
He could not, he loved the ocean, but you could never go to the beach.
You could never, it didn't matter if he was standing on
a towel, if he was on a chair.
I mean, he would just flip out.
You, you, your whole time would be ruined.
There was no point in going, 'cause you'd either have to stay in the ocean
the entire time, or you, you would just have to leave because you couldn't
just sit there and relax on the beach.
And it was one of my husband and i's, you know, favorite things to do.
That's what we would do on vacations.
And we, we had to stop going again, very isolating, you know, and very hard.
But I really think the walking on Hanya, trotting cantering in the arena on the
sand is what, what changed it because that she started riding her in May.
And by September it was the twins second birthday, and they still
had never been to the beach.
I'm like, screw it.
We're going to Virginia Beach.
We're like, you know, 45 minutes from there.
They're gonna see the ocean for the first time, even if it's a shit show.
And he flips out, we're gonna be there for like 15 minutes and they're gonna see it.
And it was that time we were, we were ready for just a complete awful
whatever, but at least we had done it.
And all of a sudden he just started running on the sand, sitting and
letting the sand like go up in his bathing suit, letting the
water, like it was unbelievable.
I mean, I, I just couldn't believe it.
Hurried up and grabbed my phone and I'm doing my mom screaming again.
And it was just like, did this really just, is this happening right now?
And then we were there for like three hours.
It, it was unreal.
But so verbally, the meltdowns started, started really going away.
The academics were just improving and improving.
And then the, the eating so I, I had doing, I did the feeding clinic from
what, what would've been 25, 2000, I'm trying 2016 to maybe about 2018.
Mohani came in in.
I stopped it shortly after Mohani came because he's, he, I mean, it was unreal.
He, his palate markedly changed.
I was able to get so many different things in him.
I also started working with Jonathan Tommy right.
Rupert Isaacson: Just quickly for listeners, Jonathan Tommy's a, a
very, very skilled nutritionist and also autism dad who we knew well in
Austin, who had gotten some really great improvements with many children,
including his son who'd been nonverbal.
So if, if, if you are wanting to know more about his work Jonathan,
Tommy, please do contact us.
All right.
So Megan, keep going.
So,
Dr. Megan McGavern:
okay.
So he started eating so much more, like the variety of things improved.
He started to, I, I was able to make these pizzas.
Like it was a frozen pizza that was gluten free, but then I could
add like these different meats.
I mean, I couldn't get meat in him for years.
I, I was able to add meat to it and veggies to it, and
I mean, I couldn't do that.
I mean, he was so malnourished for a long time.
But just like every, all of that, all like the whole picture.
Started changing.
I'm not saying that it was still not difficult.
Obviously a huge amount of effort on, on my standpoint from, from many levels.
But, and he, you know, there was still all the things like behaviors and things we
were doing, but I'm just saying like big time stuff like academics, eating again,
being able to go to the ocean and not have to stay in the ocean the entire time.
Like those were, those were big things to us.
And, and talking, talking,
Rupert Isaacson: you know, when I was joking early and saying
much, you know, much good.
It did.
What I meant was not the improvements that came with the
horse, which were remarkable.
But as you found out horsey people are tricky.
Yeah,
Dr. Megan McGavern:
yeah.
And
Rupert Isaacson: finding the right people is difficult.
Yeah.
You know, and that's very, if you're coming not from a place of authority
on horses and you're have to hire people who know more than you do.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Right.
Yeah.
That was, that was rough.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
But you weathered it.
Yeah.
And you weathered it.
Amazing.
And something else, listeners, is those of you who know Horse Boy Method know
that in order to get horses that are strong enough to ride with a kid in
order to get horses that can collect.
To give that oxytocin effect, you've got to put enormous amounts of muscle on them.
So you need to know lunging, you need to know in hand work.
And so I diligently, as did others,
sort of insisted that Meghan, in addition to her full-time doctoring, mothering
for other two children and all the rest of it, learned to do these things which
is sort of quite advanced horsemanship.
And and you did, you, you, yes.
You, you went and what was so in interesting to me about about your,
those early years with Hanya is I saw you, I mean, okay, she was a school must
horse, but I saw you able to take on work that I often have trouble getting
really seasoned horse people to do.
And you just went for it and followed it to the letter.
And so even though I was uneasy and I, I would then come back
up on other visits and go, damn, this horse looks really good.
You're really, you're really doing it.
And I'd watch you lunging her and taking her through the in-hand patterns
and the long reigning and being, you know, Megan, this is, you know, this is
like someone who's been around horses.
Or that it was, it was almost like you were downloading something.
And then when I started teaching you how to ride, like from the, from
the first day, I was like, are you sure you haven't done this before?
You know, like, yeah,
Dr. Megan McGavern:
no,
Rupert Isaacson: it was, you were, you, you were a natural.
And I remember thinking, is there something, is there some other
force moving through Meghan?
Because it shouldn't, I mean, you remember I was saying, I was kinda like,
it shouldn't be happening like this.
It shouldn't be yet.
It did.
Okay.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Right.
Rupert Isaacson: So you persevered and you persevered then in a, in a live
yard, but it in a boarding stable.
What were the challenges of doing this in that situation?
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Well, you know, again, personalities.
Like you said, for example, when we were first getting call on Hanya, like
there, you know, you wouldn't wear ride.
That was a joke to wear riding pants.
But he actually wouldn't even put the shorts on.
So we're like, you know what?
Just let him wear his underwear.
I mean, he's only, what, what would he have been in 2018?
27?
He was seven years old.
I mean, how's it any different than wearing like a.
The European bathing suits, whatever those are called.
Or like a, or even like a, like when you're competing in a swim competition,
you would wear those, I mean, what's Speedos the heck difference?
He's seven.
Yeah.
Speedos.
You know, but of course other families that were there, you
know, had something to say.
The, the person that I initially hired unfortunately was one, one
of the one of the people that you would not wanna work with.
And it became a very, like, manipulative, malignant situation.
And I let her go.
And then, you know, I, I've, I found people and I have steadily
continued to find people.
But one of the things like I learned prior to ever starting this was, you
know, to be a good leader, you need to know how all of the, all of the jobs
that are underneath you, you need to have, know how to be the secretary.
You need to know how to be the phlebotomy.
You need to know what they do.
You need to know how to make it go round in case they're not there.
And, that was, that was something like I learned early on with this.
Like, you know, people can leave at any point in time.
And initially I didn't have contracts for any, any of the employees.
And then I got burned a few times and I was like, you know, I sent,
I sent one girl out to Bianca to be, to be trained in Colorado.
And she like had this like amazing time.
And then like a month later she decided, oh yeah, I mean
I paid for airfare training.
I mean, it was a joke.
I mean, it was just a joke.
I was like, are you, are you kidding me right now?
And that was when I finally changed to having contracts because you
know, again, people find boyfriends, people move for reasons, parents
become ill, you know, whatever, everybody has life circumstances.
But, you know, I still needed to make this world go around every single day for Cole.
And part of that was making sure the horse was trained every day, you know,
staying strong being well care, you know, I, I had to learn all of that.
Now, I might not know the 5 million ways, you know, how to make a horse
do X, Y, and Z, but I can absolutely implement what you showed me.
I can, you know, once I see it, I've got it and I know this.
And when I bring new horse people on, I will say, Lee here knows
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
But I know that you need to be able to make the horse look like this.
And then I demonstrate for them and I show them and, you know, so.
Because again, even where I'm at now, at this level, I'm still not like a, an
equestrian for 40 years or something.
I, I'm, I'm not, and I fully will own that to any of the employees, you know.
But again, I say, but I know what this niche is.
I might not know what those words are.
When you're talking about the, all the, I don't, I don't know a lot of
like the other horse breed stuff or I, I don't know that, but I know this
niche and I know this niche well, and the, at least the basics of what they
need to do to maintain, to be strong for the child, strong so they don't
get injured and, and you know, that's.
That's that I'm, I'm happy to take opinions, I'm happy to, whatever,
but at the end of the day, I'm gonna take all of your opinions
and then make an educated decision.
Because it is hard, you know, the every horse person, they all have, you know,
the, the horse has some problem and you'll have six different people, including
the vet, tell you something different.
And it's like, you know, you just wanna stick a fork in your eye.
Like, how can, how can you all think that there's six different things going wrong?
And you're adamant that, you know, you know, I'm just like, alright.
You know, and then you, you can't get upset if, like, I don't go
with your opinion, you know, I'm, I'm doing the best that I can.
And it's just, it is, it's a lot, it's a lot of personalities to deal with
finding the right people that, you know, aren't gonna like, smack the shit outta
your kid when they, you know, spit in their face or you know, have a meltdown
or, you know, or that aren't gossiping.
You know, I, yeah, it, it is that part that, you know,
definitely that, that's a lot.
But I am, I'm also in a, a different space now than before because I, I
know a lot more and I also know what I'm willing to tolerate and what
I'm not willing to tolerate before I had to tolerate whatever the hell
I could get, just to keep it going.
Because again, we've gotta remember that Cole is autistic and Cole is very much.
Needs a routine.
If he doesn't go to the horse that day, like there's a, you know, or he
doesn't go out to the barn or whatever it, there's a melt, you know, there's a
meltdown, there's, or there's a potential meltdown or, and then especially early
on, if there was ever like a day that was potentially missed, I felt very panicky
because I'm like, that's a day where, you know, he could have started talking
even more, or that was a day missed in just making this early intervention,
you know, like in the younger ages.
So I was always just so, like we, I had, I would do anything to make it keep going.
I, I would do anything because I saw what was happening and I'm like, like
I can't, you know, whatever it takes, basically whatever personalities I have
to deal with, despite sometimes feeling like I was going to just like, just, oh my
gosh, how can I keep going on like this?
I can't stand all this personality stuff, but I, I still, you know, you just
gotta regroup and move forward with it.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, most people are not easy.
I wish it were otherwise.
Luckily I would say that within the horse boy community luckily, luckily, luckily
we have phenomenal people like you.
But yeah, the vast majority of the horse world, it's it's pretty
judgmental and pretty cutthroat.
And so I was very worried, you know, that you were going to enter that
world with such a vulnerable kid.
And I.
Everything at stake.
Yeah, you did.
And okay, so you then weathered those early years at the boarding
barn, and then you decided to do something a little bit radical.
Talk us through that.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Well, I mean, truly those personalities are probably what pushed me to be
like, okay, I clearly know that this is, I need to continue this.
This is working, this is gonna make my son as independent as
possible and verbal as possible.
But I can't, I can't stay in this situation here.
Like I would loathe going out there every day.
I'm like, it's already hard enough to do and to deal with everything
I have to deal with with him.
I don't need to be able to, I don't need to go there and feel like stressed out the
whole time and wondering if something's gonna happen with another person or
they're gonna say something, you know, I, I don't, I just don't need that.
I mean, it, it, this is hard enough and sad enough and everything enough.
So I we started looking for land and you know, we were told,
oh, there's no land near here.
You're gonna have to go to Glosser, which is like 45 minutes away.
It would just not be doable for any standpoint from me being
able to, I just wanna, I just
Rupert Isaacson: wanna interject there again for listeners where the,
the bit of Virginia where Meghan lives close to Virginia Beach.
So not being able to go to the beach, particularly in those humid hot
summers must have been hell, but.
It is tricky to find land there because it's a bunch of small, little peninsulas
that and swamp land that sort of jut out into the Chesapeake Bay area.
It's not the rolling horse country that you think of when you think of Virginia.
So land is actually not that easy to come by.
Okay.
So off you go.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Right, right.
So, you know, we just, as soon as we started looking, everybody was
again, being negative and I, and I just, I kept looking and then all
of a sudden it, it it happened.
Bianca actually came one when she was out one time, we looked at a couple problems.
Beba,
Rupert Isaacson: one of our mm-hmm.
Best trainers and therapists.
Yeah.
Okay.
Go.
Yep.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
And that didn't end up being the place that we had found, but yeah,
we've, we found a place that was just like a blank canvas to create.
There was nothing on it, and it was like 17 and a half acres
and lakes on either side of it.
It was like, it's like a big rectangle and then there's lakes
on either side pretty well hidden.
You can't see anything from the main road or anything.
And so we found it and then we, we bought it in August of 19.
And then, then there was the transition of, you know, starting to
build out there, which didn't happen until like end of January of 2020.
And they, they, we paid to have a barn built, a covered
arena and two, two paddocks.
Built.
And that was where we started.
And that was a shit ton of money, of course, but again,
long-term vision in mind.
And then, you know, we went I'd also already been, had, had purchased Nron.
You had gone and found Nron and took him back to Germany.
And so I'd already started paying for Naron.
And then with what you had going on, I guess with new trails and some of the
horses were being dispersed in places.
You had talked to me about Diego.
Yeah.
And you had mentioned about like, maybe, you know what I wanna, anyway,
I decided, I know I still wanted to keep Nron and I would, I would
take Diego as well because we, we couldn't have Hanya there by herself.
Right.
And thank God that, that, honestly, thank God that happened because we
transitioned there April of 20 and.
Naron wasn't, I don't remember when Naron came, but I think it
was like May of 21 or June of 21.
May of 21.
So, I mean, what would we have even done if we didn't have, you know, and
I was not of any interest in boarding any, I was getting away from public.
There will never be a boarding facility at this place.
Never you know, I, I don't, I don't want any parts of that.
So that, that was not an option to me because I didn't wanna have to
deal with any other personalities.
I just wanted to deal with the stress I had for Cole, basically.
So thank God that that happened because then we were able to transition there.
And then Mahan and Diego were our horses there for a while.
And then we started the nonprofit.
So September of 20 we applied for nonprofit 5 0 1 C3, and we got
approved that was during Covid.
So that was interesting.
And then to get the 5 0 1 C3 status, you know, you apply for that, but we didn't
actually find out that for a year after.
So technically, you know, as far as getting grants and support,
I couldn't even really start doing that until September of 21.
It literally took a whole year, I guess, because of Covid and
delays in manpower and stuff that we found out after the fact.
But,
Rupert Isaacson: so then you suddenly find yourself with two good horses,
one on the way, an environment that you can control out there in nature.
Facilities put in and you can breathe to some degree a sigh of relief.
Why do you then create a nonprofit and open this place up to the public?
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Well, I think that
being a physician, it was very frustrating for me to go to the doctor again,
no matter what specialist it was.
And they had nothing else to tell me.
You know, like there was no other suggestions when what
I was doing was not working.
And I just felt like this is unacceptable.
Like, there, there, there are so many children diagnosed with
autism now, like there, like you ha you need to know, you need to do
more continual medical education.
There needs to be, you know, you have to have more answers.
And because I like didn't go to the the group kind of stuff, you know,
I was basically relying on my doctor patient relationship to what are the
other answers of what else can I do?
And so there was always, you know, this.
I mean, just being a physician, wanting, wanting to help people.
And I'm just like, my gosh, I can like help all these other families
that are in the same situation.
And I mean, what, why wouldn't I?
And well, for all the reasons you
Rupert Isaacson: described for, for the, for the, for the fact that
you're a private person for the, the fact that people can be Yeah, people
can be, and you were so exhausted.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
But I just, I remember the hard I mean, I really was sad.
I I really, it was a really hard time for a number of years.
I mean, it's like mourning, mourning a death, you know, of what, what
you thought your child was going to be and to be able to offer hope.
Like, I mean, as you said, he is, he is a tough cookie.
You weren't sure if you were ever able to really gonna make an impact.
Like, you know, he is one of the more all along the spectrum children.
And to be able to offer that hope to these other families.
I mean, it, I didn't really think twice about it.
I, I, I really didn't.
And another thing that always made me feel sad was holidays.
And I know that's made might be a little bit something different that we do
at chats, but I really like holidays.
Like I, I mean, as far as like, I, I, well, I like celebrating holidays.
I like decorating for holidays.
I mean, I, I, I love it.
My attic is full of.
The only thing in it is like everything for holidays and holidays were so sad.
I mean, Christmas would come, you know, he is 2, 3, 4, 5, even now.
He doesn't even like to open presents.
Like if you have a bunch of presents in front of him, he might
do one and then he is overwhelmed.
But back when, you know, when you're like, oh, trying to make these great memories
and so excited to offer them this great Christmas, I mean, it was just awful.
He would just put his head down.
He was so overwhelmed.
He might even have a tantrum meltdown.
It was just like, this is so sad.
I mean, and going to see Santa and standing in a line for 45 minutes in
a mall where everything's loud and, but you wanna get that Santa picture
Rupert Isaacson: early, autism parents.
It's like,
Dr. Megan McGavern:
you know.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Yeah.
I mean, it was just, it was just all those normal things I, I didn't
really get to do with him and when I tried them was just heartbreaking.
And it was very stressful and sad.
And so, one of the things that we do most months of the year is our sensory
holiday themed sensory Saturdays.
So it's all out in nature.
And we have the horses involved on most of them, and we have
stations set up throughout the land.
And if they're not interested in the station, they don't have to.
But the stations are usually highly sensory things that are
desired by autistic children.
And crafts.
You know, we have higher level autistic kids or teenagers that, or even
young adults that come out and they, they like to do some of the crafts.
I mean, some Nicole doesn't like to do crafts really at all, but some, some do.
And we, we, we really, you know, obviously for like Santa Claus, Easter
Bunny, we have them out there Halloween.
They get to if they want to dress up, they, they can dress up.
But it's, it's, you know, it's the right environment for them to be
able to celebrate a holiday and the family gets to celebrate the holiday
in the way that the child can.
And for me, that, that is like, that was one of my saddest, saddest times.
Every time there was a big holiday, like, you know, him just, it,
it wasn't ever a, a nice memory.
So I really liked that.
I, I love that I offer that.
Unfortunately today we had our Valentine's Day sensory Saturday, and
they said the weather was gonna be pouring all day, so we canceled it.
And then what happened?
You know, it didn't, it's not even started pouring yet, but you
know, I, I, I really enjoy that.
I offer that.
And then, yeah, just being able to offer the hope of your
child being able to speak.
I mean, what, what, I mean, I would do, I would've done anything.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So yeah, you, you jumped ahead a little bit in the story
because you used a, a name.
A few moments ago you said, out here at chats we do this.
At what point did you name your nonprofit, your center,
and why did you call it chats?
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Well, actually, Cassie's mother Tracy, she's real creative and we were trying
to come up with a name for the nonprofit when we put all the paperwork in.
And chats stands for Kohl's Horse Autism therapy station.
And, you know, trains are still super important to him.
We have Thomas stuff like out all over the land, and I wanted to incorporate
trains in it, you know, and then chats, because he first started chatting on the
horse and, and then obviously putting in horse in the name, not autism in the
name, so that people would potentially understand, you know, what we do there.
So it is actually Tracy came up with that.
We had like, lots of people trying to brainstorm, but yeah, that was a
great, I, I was like, yep, that's it.
That sounds perfect.
Rupert Isaacson: So now here we are in 2025.
You've mentioned one of the things that you do is you offer these
wonderful holiday events and celebrations which in America there
are many of them, so it's every.
It's at least once a quarter, if not once every six weeks you're doing.
But talk us through your, the, the program now at chats.
What do you do?
How do you do it?
How do you organize it?
How does it differ from the local therapeutic riding things around you?
Dr. Megan McGavern:
We offer play dates throughout the week, Monday through Friday, and we have a
lot of regulars that come, like, you know, they come every Friday from 12
to one or, you know, that kind of deal.
But we're pretty steady Monday through Friday.
And then on Tuesday and Thursdays we offer after school hours because of
those are the two afternoons where I'm not there with Cole at the barn.
But, and then Cole has his play dates with me in the afternoons and then in the
mornings, oh, I, I didn't mention that.
In the barn, we actually build a classroom, so he has his classroom
there and we, you know, we still try to do stuff in the classroom
and, and out, and there's a window.
And of course, the horses are all, you know, in the stalls, you know,
in the mornings getting trained, you know, getting ready to be trained or
getting the Beamer blanket or whatever.
So, yeah, so we offer private and group play dates.
We also do summer camps, which that was like, like I think the two biggest things
that like, I, I get super pumped about.
Our camp and the holiday stuff, just 'cause that's just what I like.
But I, my fondest memories of childhood were summer camp,
church, camp, church, summer camp.
But I did tons of cool things like climbing, rock climbing
Seneca Rocks in West Virginia.
I did that a couple times or you know, whatever.
But, you know, you have great memories from going to camp.
And when, again, another thing that I couldn't do with
coal, there were no camps.
You know, when I would go to look at summer camps, there
were no camps around here.
So for me to be able to offer, you know, horse boy camp here, I mean,
I was just, I was all about it.
And we're now going into our fifth summer I think of, of offering camp.
So it's a week long camp in June, and then another one in July.
And just this past summer, we were able to extend our hours.
So we're now nine to 12, which was a big deal because it used
to just be from, like, it used to just be like an hour long camp.
But now we offer three hours and we have a lot of community support for that.
But that's pretty much what we do in a nutshell.
Sensory Saturday, we also offer trainings.
Right.
You know, to schools, to families, to, to caregivers.
Any of that stuff will offer trainings to the community and movement method
and horse boy method Lee does that.
But I think that's, that's pretty much everything we do there.
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We work in the saddle with younger children.
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It works incredibly well.
It's now in about 40 countries.
Check it out.
If you're working without horses, you might want to look at movement
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If you're working with families, you can give them really tangible exercises to do
at home that will create neuroplasticity.
when they're not with you.
Finally, we have taquine equine integration.
If you know anything about our programs, you know that we need a
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So, this means we need to train a horse in collection, but this
also has a really beneficial effect on the horse's well being.
And it also ends your time conflict, where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how
am I going to condition my horses and maintain them and give them what they
need, as well as Serving my clients.
Takine equine integration aimed at a more adult client base
absolutely gives you this.
Well, I love the fact that you call them play dates rather than therapy.
I've never yet met a kid that wanted therapy.
I don't think there's a kid born that comes out of the mother's
womb saying, oh, you know, I'd like to go for some therapy today.
No kid wants that.
Kids want to play.
If, if we can make the play therapeutic without them noticing, well, great.
But yeah, we shouldn't burden them with that.
So I I I love that you, you do that.
Talk to us.
Okay.
Talk to us about what happens at a horse boy camp.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
We have different themes.
Like each day we'll have a theme.
Like I plan it out ahead of time and we'll, we'll typically,
like, have play, water play we'll have like a water play area.
We'll have a sensory play area.
We might have a themed.
Like we do insects that day, or we'll, or Scooby-Doo stuff, but it's
all like fun, fun kind of stuff.
And then we have like the the riding part.
So we, we typically will have I have six kids per camp, so again, it's not
like I have 30 kids, but I need three kids, three people per kid basically.
So that's a lot of volunteers to come up with.
And they all get to go to
Rupert Isaacson: camp too.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
They, right, right.
And, and it's great.
Oh my gosh.
We have, like last year we did youth Volunteer Corps, which is a national
group, and then they have local chapters.
Our local chapter actually won the national award for the best youth
volunteer group, core group or whatever.
And they partnered with us in the June camp.
So, I mean, it was phenomenal.
We had a steady set of three like teenagers per child the whole week.
There was no changing, you know, 'cause normally, like, you know,
I have volunteers that can come Monday and Tuesday, but they
can't come Wednesday and Thursday.
And then you change the volunteer and then the kid, you know, re resets potentially.
So, it was, it was a great experience for them.
I mean, some of them were crying at the end of it.
Some of 'em were, you know, just eyes opened because.
And I think just less judgmental or less likely to bully or any of that, you know,
it's just a great experience, but we'll sort of like divide the morning depending
on if there's all six kids or not.
But like the first part, half the kids are on the horses also depends on many
horses we have that are functioning.
You know, if one of them's lame or something, but say like the first hour,
you know, three of the kids are on horses and they're in the back of the
land where we have the outdoor sensory classroom and the sensory pond and the,
all of this, you know, all that stuff.
And the other three kids are up playing in the sand in the arena or the water play.
We have tons of different water play things that we set up that are like
rainbow sprinkler things or the slip and slides or, you know, any of that.
And then we have themed activities when we're back there.
So we might have.
I'm just Scooby dos on my mind right now for some reason.
But I might have Scooby do stuff in the trees and you know, whatever, and
then they go and find it, or we have a mailbox on site, you know, and on
the last day they always get a letter from the horse saying how much that
Hanya loved to be with them this week.
And do you wanna go play red light, green light?
And then, you know, we'll pull out the red light, green light
and have them race on the horse.
But, you know, just activities like that.
And then, and then when it's been about an hour, then they come back
up and then the kids switch and, you know, we try to prevent any
type of meltdown with the change.
So we sort of maybe might entice them with something else that
we know that they really like.
So in case they're like, not too much wanting to get off
the horse so that we prevent.
But I mean, the, the, the kids have an amazing time and I can't tell you how
many like emails or text messages I've gotten from the moms in particular.
Like, thank you so much for giving my child this opportunity to go
to camp and to see him happy.
And, you know, just all the, the same things that I've, I felt when I
was given the opportunities and saw my kid, you know, be happy or say
something or, you know, whatever.
So, I know it's a good thing and I know it's a needed thing for sure.
Here in the area.
Rupert Isaacson: Talk to us about what's on your land.
So you've mentioned you know, sensory players and outdoor classroom.
You've got, you've done over the years, all sorts of cool
things out in those woods.
Talk us through the track.
You know, so, so you, you have to imagine listeners that when you arrive
at chats, you're not just sort of going into an in indoor arena and that's it.
There, there is a cover but I would say that occupies the least part of your land.
And the least part of what the kids, what's on offer for the, for the,
for the people Take us on a tour,
Dr. Megan McGavern:
right?
So, yeah, the arena, we don't, I mean, we're mostly out on the land.
The kids like the arena most because of the sand, you know, and to
play in the sand for the ones that like sand most don't in the arena.
So we have swings all over.
The property, all different kinds of swings.
We have a tree house that we built.
We have an obstacle course that has like a shake, shake bridge, and then
it leads up into a tree that happened to fallen over, but it still lives.
And it's like this way.
So the kid, the shake, shake, bridge, then connects and you climb up the
tree, and then we put a slide that goes down from the tree and all
these different types of swings.
There's two different zip lines.
Brian who worked for me for over three years and was instrumental in Kohl's
progress he loved to do this kind of stuff, so he, he built most of this.
He built like a tree house platform kind of thing in the back of the
woods near the sensory classroom.
It's so cool.
And there's a huge zip line that comes off of that.
And then you can also just sit up there and just lay back and you're
just looking up in the trees.
We have a a beautiful swing that's up on a, like the only high part on the land.
And it's also just there's trees around when you look up, it's just,
you just, just seeing beautiful branches and the, the big lake is right
over there, so it's super peaceful.
We have a circular compass clock that Brian made.
So they're basically just old trees that fell down and then
he made posts going in a circle, and then he put like the numbers.
To make a clock.
And then he put north, southeast, west signs on there.
And then like, so we can go in that circle with the horse and you know,
teach them clockwise, counterclockwise, oh, we're going west on the land.
You know, Mathway Drive is going back south on the land.
All the trails we have named, we have trail signs up.
A lot of them are Thomas Island of Soor, Thomas, the train,
different types of names.
Some of them are nature kind of names.
We have bird houses all over.
We have Leprechaun Way because I'm Irish and I freaking like leprechauns.
So we have leprechaun houses which leads me to St.
Patrick's Day.
Better not freaking rain because that's a big one.
We, that's usually our most attended one.
And I literally let them do leprechaun hunts.
Like I hide a leprechaun and a pot of gold in a tree that has like a
little opening and I buy from Amazon.
They're real.
Pretend that they're real.
I buy footprints of leprechauns and then the kids, we take 'em on a, the
tractor, we pull them and then they go off running and then they find the pot of
gold and then they get a, like a goodie bag with all kind of sensory stuff in it.
But that's one of the funnest things.
But I have those leprechaun houses there all the way.
And those kids freaking love, like getting off the horse and opening
up the little doors and wondering if something's gonna come out.
We have a ob, we have like obstacle courses for the horses
as well, back through the woods.
We have a bridge that a Boy Scout group built for us a couple years ago.
They camped out and it was like a project for them and they
camped out over the weekend.
And the bridge is really awesome.
We have sensory walkways that the Youth Frontier Corps built for us.
We also have these sensory they're made from like old roofing pallets and we have
a whole trail of those where you can walk the horse through the trail and they're
on either side so the kid can like, touch them while they're up on the horse
and, you know, all different textures or sounds you can bang or things like that.
Told you about the mailbox, they like to ride up that's also on
a little hill and they can ride up and get stuff out of there.
That's, that's it's really, it's really nature, natural, you know,
I don't, over the years, like, you know, I got a, a new shed kind of
thing to put the tractor in and then I got another shed to put the a TV in.
And so there's a couple like grayish colored sheds that are
up near the front, but otherwise there's like, it's all just natural.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, it's one of the things I love most about it.
When you go to your place, you, you, you see the fields where the horses are out.
And also for listeners I.
Although there's a barn with stables and stalls the horses live out and just
sort of come in to be fed and to be made ready for the arrival of the kids.
But otherwise, they're having a lovely time out in nice pastures.
But what one sees of course is that, you know, grass then rolling out
to those woods and then you get in those woods and it's like a magic
kingdom that you've, you've built.
And I, I do wish that one saw more of that, you know, rather than
like, this is the sensory trail.
It's like no, no, the entire forest is the sensory sensory trail.
Yeah.
Right.
And you could, you could go in there a hundred times and not exhaust it.
You, you mentioned somebody called Brian who built a lot of that stuff and
I was lucky enough to, to meet Brian and do and train him in some of the
things, but where Brian, Brian was, you know, rather an exceptional find.
And I think it's worth talking about him because when people are looking
for help for their kids there are specific qualities one's looking
for and one doesn't always find them, but then occasionally you do.
So we talked about Cassie, for example, who is still with Cole and
who's incredible implements movement method with him, but is also just,
you know, such an emotional support and you know, educator as well.
So Brian, just talk to us a bit about Brian.
Who he, who he wa I know he's, he's moved to North Carolina now, but who
he was, what his skills were and how that helped Cole, because I think
there's insights there for parents and, and people running programs.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
So there's a lot of insight to be had with this because Brian came to me
right when Covid happened and none of the kids were going back to school.
And I had two or three, I had two people working for me.
One of them had been with Cole for I think about three years.
And the other one had only been with Cole for about a year.
And, you know, you always think that, oh, well, you know, this person has
a master's in special education, or they have all this experience
and all the, you know, all this.
And I tell you, that was one of the worst fits I ever had like fit
between like an educator and coal that I had the whole time I did it.
And yet, you know, on paper you think that's what you should do and
you paid way more for that person.
And I mean, it was totally not the right fit.
And then as, as it would go, as the phases happen where, you know, you're
steady and then all of a sudden somebody leaves, you know, hi, here
I am going into that school year and these, these people stopped working one
because they had to oversee their kid.
You know, they're just so, I just have to, okay, I fill in again
and I, I do everything that I can till I can find somebody.
And then I put the, the job out on Indeed.
And I don't know if Indeed is in Europe or I think it might be
though, but it's a very good job.
Very good way to find people.
I only found that a couple years ago, but I struggled up until then to find
good candidates, but I consistently find good candidates from there.
But Brian applied to Indeed, and when I first spoke with Brian
on the phone I could tell it was just a little bit different.
Like when I would talk, there'd be a longer pause to wait to hear from
what, like, what his answer was.
Or sometimes the words would be drawn out a little longer or, you know, it just
wasn't like your normal, like, you know, you and I going back and forth right now.
And part of that could have been just nerves on the phone and
with him being autistic as well.
I, you know, I don't really know, but I definitely could tell something was
different when we first interviewed.
And then he came out and I was I remember cry, you know, all these
tears that I've shed over the years.
I could make an ocean, but he he came out like, and then I always have them come
out and meet me with Cole out at the barn.
And I.
Cole was not having a good morning, and Cole had a meltdown right in front of
him, and he's, you know, doing his crying and coming in and I'm like, oh my gosh.
Oh my gosh.
He's not, he's not gonna come back.
He's not.
This is, oh my gosh, I was so upset.
And Lee was there, Lee happened to be there, and I just looked
at her and my eyes were rolling.
I'm like, oh my God, this isn't going good.
He's gonna leave.
And I mean, he was so unfazed by it.
He was like, it was like, it, like it didn't even affect him.
Like it didn't, like, he was like, whatever.
I, meanwhile, like all, all of our neurotypical cells are like,
oh my God, I can't do this.
And I mean, it didn't phase him at all.
And he was like, oh, it's fine.
Next time he'll be fine.
And I was just like, oh, okay.
And then, you know, he totally still wanted the job.
And then, you know, turns out he is on the spectrum, very high functioning.
He's a swim coach.
He an equestrian, he like, was like all the, all the bot he loves to teach.
He like all the, all the boxes you're looking for.
It was, it was just unbelievable.
And he became like Cole's just person, I, I mean outside of Cassie.
He, it, Brian was able to like academically help him so much
and just was never phased by.
His behavior, you know?
And I had just this different understanding of his mind because, you
know, he's on the spectrum too, you know, stuff that we wouldn't, we, we couldn't
understand or that I didn't understand or, you know, it just, he was always it
was all just this kind of calm with him.
And when he and I would teach together, I mean, it was easy.
It was just so easy.
We'd just go back and forth.
And he got called to learn how to ride independently.
Hanya he, I mean, I, I could just go on and on.
He's the one that finally got Cole to be able to ride his bike independently.
I, I don't know.
I mean, last summer.
Summer, yeah.
I remember being before he left,
Rupert Isaacson: blown away with you sending me pictures
of Cole jumping, Diego jumping.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know,
Rupert Isaacson: I remember you sending me those and me just going, shit.
That's right.
Mind blowing academically.
Where did he get Cole and how did he get him there?
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Oh, I mean, he, well, just doing the same, you know, things that I was telling you.
Cassie very much has been like, you know, I'll, I'll review everything,
come up with ideas, and then she very much helps in with them.
But she's the one laminating all these.
Okay.
So, she would make all the laminated things with the Velcro
and all kinds of other things too.
But Brian would Brian was able to really get him far.
I don't, I don't even know like how to say specific examples, but
what I do know is he would send me videos pretty much on a daily basis
of what he was doing with Cole.
He also got him very independent, got him to be able to his feed himself, his
peanut butter pretzels, which is like his mid-morning snack, and then close
up his stuff and put it back in his bag.
And, you know, I, I was just always so used to feeding him because he wouldn't
eat or, you know, carrying all this stuff because he wouldn't carry it.
And Brian sort of was like, you can carry this dude.
You're like 12, you know, 10, 11, 12, 13.
Like, you know, it's good to have a outside person to look in and, and hey,
well maybe we can pull back on that now, because, you know, you get so used
to being the caregiver mode that you don't realize that sometimes you're
making it worse instead of trying to get it more independent by still doing
something that you had to do before, but maybe you don't have to now.
So it was good to have like that outside perspective of that
was some of the stuff for Cole.
But just on so many levels.
Oh, Cole started to, I mean, this has, this isn't necessarily.
Movement method.
But Cole started to love roller coasters.
He wouldn't for a long time, like you'd take him to the amusement park and
the thing that pulls down over you.
He wouldn't, it would just be too, like, that would make him panicky,
anxious that he couldn't get out.
So he didn't do it.
And then maybe like two years ago now Brian happens to live rollercoaster.
So now like coal rides, anything, like any, anything that flips,
turns goes upside down, like all the crazy stuff, he's all about it.
But it was, it was just nice to have a person who, who enjoyed that stuff
too, and like, loved to go too.
And then I didn't have to vomit after going off the ride, you know what I mean?
Like, yeah.
It was, it was just really nice to, and he loved the ocean.
So like literally this past summer, every Tuesday we took co to the ocean
so he could swim in the ocean and, and Brian would go out with him.
And, you know, we started taking coal to the pool during the year,
during the winter months because our pool closes and then coal goes
nuts without going in the water.
So Brian, Brian took him to the local Aex and.
Got him independent and like dressing himself, drying himself
off, knocking on the door before he went in to, to the changing room.
I mean, I've never had Cole knock on a door.
You know, I'm just, I lead him on my, every time I'm with Cole out
in a public setting, I'm like, how quickly can I get through this?
Because what's he gonna do?
You know?
'cause he, you know, where Brian, you know, in that setting, Brian has the time.
He's got nothing but the, the three and a half, four hours.
Hey, we, we got, we got all the time.
You know, I'm feeling like doing, you know what I mean?
Like, it's not like call I, I have to hurry up and put clothes on call
because we need to get somewhere.
You know?
We can, Brian can sit there.
No, no.
Put it, put it, put it there.
You know.
Anyway, it just just really helped a lot.
Rupert Isaacson: I think.
I think, I think that in so many, one of the things which doesn't often occur is if
one's running something around autism or indeed around any neurodivergent thing is
to look for staff that have the condition.
You know, one might think, oh, well, would they be resilient enough or would they
be able to, and as you found with, with Brian, the answer was a resounding yes.
I, I would say that.
Mm-hmm.
You know, every time I would come out, I would see a new academic milestone.
I'd see a new life skill, you know?
Right.
And as you said, Brian was sort of un unflappable.
Also, you know, he's a big guy.
Yeah.
But he's also building you all this stuff, like these tree houses and things.
Right.
So, you know, I think I would, I think one of the morals of that story is, is
to encourage people to maybe actively look for people on the spectrum.
Now obviously that can be a minefield.
Yeah.
You know, but certainly have that as an asset in a team member because
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Right.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, ironically, people are often saying, oh, they,
you know, would they have the empathy?
It seems that the answer would be yes.
You know, from what we saw.
You've also got someone else really good on your team on the equestrian side.
You've got Lee.
Just talk to us a little bit about Lee and then I'd like after that for
you to tell us where Cole is at now.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Okay.
Well, Lee has been sort of my right hand woman.
She has been nothing but supportive.
She's a UVA grad.
She was a career woman and then decided to I.
She really wanted to stay home with her kids and, you know, just
do some part, part-time work.
And she reached out to me whenever I was looking for an equestrian.
And I mean, she's just been really amazing.
She's gone through all the certifications with you.
She's allowed us to be able to like, you know, certify people here at chats.
She helps train any new, you know, equestrians that come on board and
does the training in the communities.
And I mean, she's just a down to earth woman who, who really has a
kind heart and loves to ride horses,
Rupert Isaacson: right?
And she's a really, really skilled horse woman.
And, and I think that, again, this is something which is often so lacking.
Not always, but it's not always prioritized with Bitcoin assisted
stuff, which is that, you know, people who've really had a career in horses,
you know, she's a hunter jumper, she still works at a hunter jumper barn.
She, it's not that you necessarily have to be that, but it doesn't hurt, you know,
to have people that really do understand what it takes to keep horses sound to.
Prepare horses to put muscle on horses, to top plan horses, to make sure
horses get the trail rides that they need to make sure horses, if they like
to jump, get those jumping sessions to make sure that the, the, the,
the horses at the best they can be.
When that
Dr. Megan McGavern:
right
Rupert Isaacson: walks into the, into the property, so much work goes into that.
Rather than just saying, well, we'll this horse is sort of quiet, we'll
just pull 'em in from the field.
And there we go.
You know, every time I come out to you, the horses look so good.
The top lines are lovely and curvy.
They've got big butts, big necks.
They coats are glossy, they're fit, you know, and they, they show up ready for
action with enthusiasm and generosity.
And I just wanna take my hat off to Lee and again, I think, I think for people
who are listening, the moral of the story is do look for people who have a
really solid, solid horse background.
That said, obviously they can be terribly bossy and opinionated
and not always a good fit.
But Lee seems to be able to, you know, tread that line between
just being a, you know, sound human being and have those skills.
So, you know, you, it was so interesting to me that you sort of went from
having to take any dysfunctional person you could find who just knew
something about horses, and then you end up with this kind of dream team.
Yeah, there's a lot for us to learn in that, in that learning curve.
Tell us, I think this is what we all want to know now.
Where's Colin at now?
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Cole is gonna be 14 in May, and he continues to progress with his academics.
He can add, subtract, multiply which was something I tried years to, to see.
I tried so many different ways and then, you know, it's like try a hundred times,
but it's that a hundred first time that, that that's how you wanted to learn it.
And, and the a hundred other time, other ways were not the right way.
But then, you know, it's just a, definitely a testament to keep
reinventing how you might teach something.
Obviously keeping the environment right with being outside and movement,
but you know, there it just might be that a hundred first time that that
makes it so they know how to do it.
But we've been working on division now for most of this school year and
he's definitely it's definitely, you know, I can see it clicking in his
head when we do all the problems.
You know, he also likes dry erasers.
So like we, we have like a dry erase division board, like where he can
do the problem and, you know, it's all about finding out what they
like to use or what makes them stay attentive and then individualizing
that particular lesson to it.
It's a lot of extra work, but I mean, it made the difference.
So, we're still working on reading and we have some evidence that he can read.
And then there's then other ways though, when we're teaching it,
it's like it doesn't connect.
And I think that's just because we don't really understand how it's connecting
in his brain or how he's processing it.
I did have a dyslexia evaluation for the first time.
I could have never even done that in years past because he wouldn't
have been verbal to, you know, verbal enough to do it or anything.
I literally just had that like, less than two weeks ago, they
came to the house and did it.
And while they couldn't fully score it because he couldn't answer all
of it I was really proud of him for, you know, the parts that he, that
he could do and respond back to.
From a food standpoint, the, the boy is like almost five 10 now.
Size 13 shoe, 215 pounds, I'd say.
He's a beast.
He's, he's solid muscle.
I mean, he is on the horse like five days a week, most of them twice a day.
I mean, he's pretty solid from a muscle standpoint, and he loves
to jump on the trampoline always and swims throughout the year.
So physically, he's pretty, pretty big boy.
Behaviorally we've had some new things just because he is going through puberty.
So that's, that's just fun.
We can leave that at that.
And you know, there's still always challenges with him.
I mean, I, I can't say too, anything's different about, like,
the fact that I can't take Cole over to my friend's house for a party.
I don't, I don't know that that's ever going to change.
You know, he doesn't, if I try to go into Target real quick
for something, God help me.
Like he, he'll just start.
He doesn't get, he, he does stuff to make you upset so that you will get
out of there as quickly as possible.
He knows exactly what he's doing, but you know, he, he'll, he'll start, he'll
start laughing so loud, and then he'll scream at the end of the laugh, and
then he'll start jumping up and down.
Or he'll, he'll drop down to the ground and he'll laugh, giggle, giggle.
I mean, everybody, like the whole store thinks that there's like someone coming
out with a gun and is gonna kill them or something because Cole's so loud, you
know, and everybody's looking at you.
I mean.
You know, so it's not like the crying meltdowns anymore, like of years past.
It's the, that sounds more, I'm gonna embarra
Rupert Isaacson: That sounds more
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Yeah.
I'm gonna embarrass the shit outta until you get me outta here.
Rupert Isaacson: That's like, I don't Oh,
Dr. Megan McGavern:
totally.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, totally,
Dr. Megan McGavern:
totally.
Rupert Isaacson: Intelligent and thought out.
Right.
Well, executed well.
Like well played.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Very well played.
Yep.
So he does that a lot.
He's, he's very he's a funny boy.
He, we've really seen his funny personality come out.
He is a real jokester.
He really is.
He's, he's funny.
And as far as like talking, oh my gosh, he, he talks so much now.
It's still not like if I demand a conversation like, Cole, how was your day?
That doesn't happen.
But he will speak in full sentences about how he feels or something that
he's thinking about or what he saw.
I mean, that was like, that was a, that was a, a dream I
was chasing for, for years.
And I have every like, belief that this will just continue.
I mean, every year he's shown more and more progress.
There's no reason why that wouldn't continue to happen.
I, I just, you know, I still, I still have the hopes of many things for him
and I am just gonna keep doing what I'm doing and, and try to see if there's
anything else, you know, that comes out that I need to add or whatever.
But I mean, I would say we are like in a night and day picture
from when you first met him and I.
I, again, it's still
Rupert Isaacson: when you say, I'm not trying, talk about what he thinks
and he tells you about what he thinks gi give us some examples of, of that.
What are some things that he said?
Dr. Megan McGavern:
You know, when you're, when you're driving and say you hit a pothole or, or
something and be like, oh my, or he'll say, you bumped, or I was putting on.
This was like unbelievable.
I, and this is why I still need to get one of those cameras that's put on your
head or something that watches everything.
This was like around Halloween the year before.
And I love like Charlie Brown's peanut stuff.
So we all dressed up as Peanuts characters and he was Charlie Brown and I had
these cool Charlie Brown, it was like the actual face of Charlie Brown socks
that he wore as part of the outfit.
And then afterwards I would put them on him at bedtime.
'cause you know, it was getting cold out.
And one night we were going to bed, we were not speaking, we
were just, we were both tired.
He was getting in bed and I normally put the socks on 'cause they were too tight,
but he acted like he wanted put 'em on.
So I was like, oh, okay here.
And he started to put 'em on and he couldn't get 'em on
'cause they were so tight.
And then I was like, here, okay, you want me to help you?
And I started putting 'em on and he goes, good grief.
Like, like, I mean Charlie Grief.
I was like, you gotta be fucking kidding.
Did you just think, did you, you know, and then I get my mom screeching
voice again and and now I have, I record him regularly saying Charlie
Brown kind of stuff or whatever.
But I mean, he'll, he'll say he'll tell the boys to quiet down you know, his
twin brothers or he, I mean, he'll, he'll, he'll just point out things.
Oh, he, Ashton was practicing a speech that he has for this
black History Month project.
And he came over to Ashton afterwards and he said, good job.
Like what, what?
Isn't that?
I don't know.
He'll say, I love you to me, you know, at bedtime, he'll tell me sweet dreams.
I mean, it's just shit like, that would just never happen.
There would just be no talk.
He tells you like that he wants to go in the woods if he doesn't
wanna keep, you know, lunging.
I mean, these are just small examples, but there's, there's bigger examples that
are just not coming to my head right now.
But he absolutely, he'll tell you, he'll answer me now when
I say, do you want yogurt?
You know, before it was just, he would never answer no matter what or, and, and
he'll say yes or no now, or he'll tell you what he wants ahead of time or, I
mean, it was just, that was never before.
You always just had to, had to figure it out, wing it,
WW figure out what was wrong.
But you know, I mean, sometimes I still have to figure out what is wrong
if he, but, but most of the time he tells me now, like, I mean like if
he got hurt or if his stomach hurts, you know, and he can take a shower.
He can do a shower all on his own now.
I mean, I took a shower with him for, for years, actually all the way up
till probably like six months ago.
I mean, he, he, you know, he's not paying attention to what I look like.
He isn't, you know, I was just in there assisting him and now he can he'll
shampoo conditioner, he washes his face.
'cause you know, now he is of the age of getting acne.
He does his whole body with a soap.
He, you know, he, he has the whole routine.
He.
He's styling, he's learning how to style his hair now with the Goop stuff.
Like really, you know, he's, he is learning a lot of independent life skills.
Yeah.
He's, he feeds himself the yogurt now, like even all the way up till
like four months ago, I would still have to feed him yogurt every time.
But he would let Brian, Brian, he would, he feed himself yogurt with
Brian, but with me, he, it was just still this like you fat guy game.
Yeah.
And finally, you know, what got him to count was, or to eat, it
was we started counting, you know, he likes to count and so he took,
I was like, oh, count how many.
1, 2, 3.
And then, and then now we, we do it like that and he takes 'em and he starts
counting and then I know he has a yogurt.
I'm like, oh.
And then I keep counting and sometimes I'll go really fast so I can see him, see,
hear him say the higher numbers, because you know, he knows all that stuff, but.
After you've asked him so many times, he doesn't want to tell you anymore.
And then when I have new people that can get involved, then they think he doesn't
know stuff because he won't answer them.
But it's because he answered it 5,000 times before and it's just, he's done.
Yeah.
And so that's a, that's a frustrating part still, especially when I have
staff turnover because, you know, if he doesn't answer it a certain way, then
you, then you think he doesn't know it.
And that's just, that's just not the case at all, you know.
So I'll like go higher numbers.
I'll, I'll go real fast and I'll go to like 25 and then, then I get to hear him
say 26, which I otherwise would probably never get to hear him say, you know?
Rupert Isaacson: So how is he with his brothers?
Dr. Megan McGavern:
He is, he's very good with his brothers.
You know, he'll, he'll really rough house with, with me or, or we, like,
he'll come up and especially now that, you know, teenage puberty kind of stuff,
he'll come over and he'll just like shove me in the back and, and, or he'll
come over and pinch and, you know, when he wants to, to make you play with him.
And he, I mean, he really likes to rough house, you know, like push
back and forth and, you know, pretend like you're, you know, whatever.
And but with his brothers he doesn't, he doesn't do that with them at all.
They, I mean, he knows like, they're just, they're smaller, but they, he
doesn, you know, they do really well together in the pool so they can really
relate as like brothers in the pool.
And then just on the trampoline.
And I would say those are the two areas where like, I feel like they
act brotherly, but then like, when I need a break now, at least the twins
are old enough where I can be like, you go roughhouse with Cole now.
Like, you give mommy a break.
And then they, they have a blast.
I mean, Cole's laughing and giggling.
They're Cole's running away from 'em.
Then Cole's chasing them then, you know, they're running after 'em.
I mean, that, you know, I couldn't do that a couple years ago just
'cause they were still so little.
But now, you know, they're, they're pretty strong and they're old, you know, I'm not
saying like he won't pinch them sometimes, but as far as like the real roughhousing,
he does not like hurt them or, you know, he'll come and just sit on me.
You know what I mean?
Like, he'll, he'll just, he, you know, but the twins, he doesn't, he
doesn't do that kind of stuff to them.
So he's, you know, overall very kind to them.
Rupert Isaacson: You've brought this kind of full circle in that you
started as a doctor, despite being a doctor, there were no answers.
You had to go out and formulate answers.
And then being a doctor, as you said, even when you were trying to find a
support group, then being a physician, you know, sort of blew your cover
in a way and isolated you further.
And yet now you've broken ground, you've.
Managed to get the medical establishment to begin to accept
things like movement method.
Talk to us about what's going on with Virginia Medical School and all of
that, because I think this is where it's going for a lot of our work.
And where it needs to go as we sort of come from the hippie fringes
where we've been for so long now, edging into the mainstream.
Talk to us about what's happened there.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Well, one of my physician friends and colleagues who's in the pediatric world
had connected me with the director of.
The annual Autism Updates conference that they have at Eastern
Virginia Medical School each year, which is in February each year.
And Eastern Virginia Medical School is the closest like
academic medical center near us.
Then the next closest would be like VCU in Richmond.
But I reached out to that physician and said that I would like to be
able to present at your conference.
And he brought it to their planning committee and they said yes.
And then that's when I brought you over in February of what would've that been?
We just did this in 24, 23,
Rupert Isaacson: I think
Dr. Megan McGavern:
23 2
Rupert Isaacson: or
Dr. Megan McGavern:
2323, I think February of 23.
And so we presented at the, at the medical school there for the autism
conference and it went very well.
You know, there was like a line of people waiting to talk to me when I went out to
the bathroom after the talk and to you.
And and then I was contacted after asking if I was interested in
creating my own neuroscience based conference on movement method.
And I was like, hell yes.
And so then I relayed the new to you, news to you, and then we got our
planning committee together and you came up with a lot of the people who
have helped you formulate this over the years and or who implement it.
And I did the more.
Academic medical side, putting together a meeting side, all the continuing
medical education side of stuff, which is a ton of online forms and regulations
and things that you have to meet.
And then we pulled it off in September of 24, and I think it was phenomenal.
It was very well received.
All the feedback from the medical community that attended.
It was really positive.
And actually after that conference, mark Lobel, who introduced himself to you,
who's the head of the Virginia Autism Foundation, he's a big supporter of chats.
There were some teachers in the audience that had reached out
to him and wanted to implement Movement method into the classrooms.
And he funded like all the stuff that they needed for, like, he as in
Virginia Autism Foundation voted to fund those teachers for their classrooms.
So we already did make a, an impact somewhat locally in the school system.
Rupert Isaacson: But What school was that in Virginia that's doing that?
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Well, it was just some individual teachers that attended the conference.
It wasn't like a whole school.
Right.
One of which,
Rupert Isaacson: which schools are they at out of interest?
Dr. Megan McGavern:
I, I think it's Newport News.
Julie?
I think Julie is in Newport News.
I have to, I have to ask, do
Rupert Isaacson: you know, are these elementary schools or high school
Dr. Megan McGavern:
elementaries?
Elementary, special ed.
Rupert Isaacson: Elementary, special Ed, Newport, news Elementary.
Mm-hmm.
Special ed.
Are they all from the same school or are they, were they from
Dr. Megan McGavern:
No, there were, there were two.
There were three, I think one was in Virginia Beach.
Mm-hmm.
Uhhuh.
And she actually came and did a training in movement method at the barn with Lee.
Mm-hmm.
And the other lady, I don't, I don't, I can't remember off the top of my head.
Mm-hmm.
But also through that there's a place called Maverick Learning,
which is an autism school that was created in Chesapeake, which
is about 45 minutes from here.
It's still part of Hampton Roads.
And we we're, we are doing a training in their school, so this is the first time
we're going into a school and training.
Lee's doing it in March.
It's like a one day thing on the teacher.
Like they're, they're like I can't come up with a word.
But anyway, we're doing a training there, but the conference you know,
it was very well received and we plan to, to do one again in 2026.
I still Kelly's still getting a date.
Rupert Isaacson: Perfect.
So listeners listen out for that, because this was groundbreaking what happened
in 24, the first neuroscience conference for movement method for the work we are
all doing in a, in a medical school.
The more of these we do.
The more kids and families like us are gonna get helped.
So we will be announcing that well in advance so that those of you
that want to come over for it in Virginia Beach it's gonna be in
Norfolk, Virginia can can attend.
And if you can't attend in person, obviously you can attend online.
But it's, it's really a, oh, I see Cole in the background there.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
He's, Hey Cole.
Hey Cole.
You say hi.
Rupert Isaacson: Hey, Cole.
Don't, it's
Dr. Megan McGavern:
hooray.
Rupert Isaacson: Great to see you.
Teenagers do not make me say hi.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Right.
Rupert Isaacson: So big.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
He is, he's huge.
I keep lifting weights so that I can mess him up if he tries to mess me up.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Attack is the best form of defense.
Yeah.
So Megan, you've, you've, you've achieved so much.
Where, so where do you wanna take it?
What's next?
Dr. Megan McGavern:
I, I really I wanna keep, I wanna keep expanding it in a medical platform.
I really want to get it in other meetings across the country.
I want it to become, I.
Standard of care.
So when you go to see your family practice doctor, your pediatrician,
the developmentalist, the neurologist, that not only do they say speech
therapy, occupational therapy, A, B, A, but they also say movement method.
It just needs to be part of daily practice recommendations and that,
that is one of my biggest goals.
Secondary would be, you know, getting as many children that I can out to chats and
getting it fully sponsored, the lighting as a struggle and you know, continuing.
And then thirdly, to continue my son's journey to potentially, I
don't know, healing with some quirks.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Well the quirks are the magic.
He's
Dr. Megan McGavern:
following me.
He's telling me enough is enough.
Okay.
Hold on.
Rupert Isaacson: One last question before we let you go.
And Cole is quite right because we've been at this for a while.
How can people find you how can people find chats online?
How can people find out information about trainings that you're doing at chats?
Dr. Megan McGavern:
The website.
Take a bath.
Hold on.
Rupert Isaacson: Take a.
He does, he
Dr. Megan McGavern:
wants to take a bath.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
Dr. Megan McGavern:
me too.
Yeah.
The website is www.chatssevenfiveseven.com.
The Facebook is the at sign and then Kohls horse therapy, all one word.
We're also on Instagram, but I don't remember I don't remember the Yeah.
Info for that, but you could find it on the website for sure.
But that's pretty much where our main stuff is.
Rupert Isaacson: Chat seven five seven.com,
7 5 7 being the area code and on Facebook at Coles Horse Therapy.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Right?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
Dr. Megan McGavern:
the fa the Facebook page is, is pretty active.
Like, I mean, I, I try to post on that, you know, most days of the week with
what's going on or something that's happened or, you know, whatever.
Rupert Isaacson: So, listen, listeners, if, if you're a, if you're a parent,
if you're a practitioner, if you are a horse person if you're a teacher
anywhere on the east coast of the USA, you want to be looking to this work
that's going on at chats and now at Eastern Virginia Medical School as well.
Hit Megan up.
She will get back to you.
She's a powerhouse, as you can see.
And she'll help you.
Megan, it's been an absolute delight.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Thank you.
And I guess I would sort of like to end it with I guess two things.
Thank you so much for helping me change his life.
I, I really am forever indebted for that.
And then secondly, I'd like to remember Hanya.
Yeah, you just passed away, you know, so she died last, not less like about
eight days ago, so rest in peace.
But she served a really, she served a lot of children and changed so many lives.
Rupert Isaacson: She did.
And she, herself was a rescue horse.
She had come out of a not so great situation in Mexico, and
as you say turned into the most
giving generous horse, but a lot was given back to she, she gave so much love.
So people gave love back to her.
And I would say that was a horse that really had a life well
lived and a death, well died.
I mean, a, a a self-actualized equine life, you know?
And you're certainly exemplary in your care for her.
So I'm grateful to you for that.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Yeah, absolutely.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
Well, till the next time, so we will, we, it's, it's gonna be the next thing pushing
forward for this next conference in 2006.
I guess we get our britches on.
We'll be talking then.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Alright.
Till next time.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Okay, take care.
Thank you,
Rupert Isaacson: you too.
Bye-bye.
Dr. Megan McGavern:
Bye.
Rupert Isaacson: If you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast,
I'm guessing you are, then you've probably also always wondered a little
bit about the old master system.
of dressage training.
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step
exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse
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well being of the horse and the rider.
Intrigued?
Like to know more?
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
Check out the free introduction course.
Take it from there.