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Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling

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author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.

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Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge

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thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.

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I have a request.

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If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.

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It really helps us get this work done.

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As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.

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And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several

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equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.

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If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.

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com.

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So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.

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Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.

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Today I have autism Mum and Director of
Chats in Virginia, which is an extremely

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cutting edge equine assisted outfit.

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Megan McGovern, doctor Megan
McGovern, and by doctor I don't

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mean PhD, I mean physician,

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but also as I said, autism mum.

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And she has a very interesting story
to tell, not dissimilar from mine in

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some ways, in terms of being forced
to do this out of necessity rather

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than because she woke up in the
morning saying, well, I want to run a

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equine assisted equine therapy unit.

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Dr. Megan McGavern:

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Mm-hmm.

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I don't

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Rupert Isaacson: think that was
ever really on her list of dreams.

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However, what she's done with it over the
last almost decade has brought our line

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of work into the mainstream for medicine.

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So, I think we should let
Megan talk about this.

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Hey Megan, thanks for coming on.

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Tell us who you are, what you do.

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Dr. Megan McGavern:

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I am an internal medicine physician,
and I previously was an active duty

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Navy doctor before, like I served my
time and got out and then I've been

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in, in private practice ever since.

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And my first son, his name
is Cole, and he's 13 now, but

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he's the one that's autistic.

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And then I have neurotypical
twin boys, Sebastian and Ashton.

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They're eight.

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And Cole was not responding to
the normal therapies that are

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recommended by physicians, whether
they're family practice, pediatrician

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developmentalist, neurologist.

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He, he wasn't, or as a matter of
fact, I, he continued to regress as

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I added on therapy after therapy.

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He got diagnosed at age four, and by
age five he became failure to thrive.

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Pretty much fully nonverbal.

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He might say five or 10 things in a day,
but half of 'em were the same thing.

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May have been like go I remember go.

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But and then they
threatened a feeding tube.

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They offered me inpatient care at a major
medical center about an hour from here.

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And things got pretty
bad by the age of five.

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I read all the books from I.

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Cleveland Clinic and
Harvard and all that stuff.

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And I was already doing all those things.

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And then I read Rupert's book, the
Horseplay, and it was the only book,

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hi, been, he was like the seventh or
eighth book in and it was the only

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one, like within 20, 25 pages, I was
like, I've gotta contact this man.

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And I happened to be on vacation and
I emailed him from the plane before it

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took off and eagerly awaited a response.

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And then it took cold to new
trails in October with my husband.

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And, you know, that's sort of a wrap.

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That's sort of how it all started.

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Rupert Isaacson: Let's just
dial back a little bit.

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When you say you tried all the therapies
or the recommended therapies and Cole

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regressed, can you be a bit more specific?

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What did you try?

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Dr. Megan McGavern:

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Okay.

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Rupert Isaacson: And then how and
why do you think he regressed?

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Dr. Megan McGavern:

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Well I think that he was just one
of the many autistic children that

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don't necessarily respond to the
few therapies that are, you know,

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proven supposedly in clinical trials.

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But he was in special
education in the school system.

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He was getting speech
and OT at the school.

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He was getting speech and OT privately.

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He was getting a, B, a, A, B, A to
the point that our insurance did

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not cover a, b, A at that time.

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So we were paying about $5,000 a month
for a BA, which made him, made him purely

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upset and pissed off like the whole time.

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I mean, he'd stand there and have,
be made to brush his teeth for 30

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minutes and if, I mean, it was just,
it was just not a great scenario.

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It, he was I know that it can
help m many children, but it

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just, it was not helping Cole.

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But we, you know, when I say we gave
it our best effort, you know, my

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husband was working tons of extra
shifts to pay for the A BA because

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that was pretty much the only thing
we hadn't been doing prior to getting

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diagnosed at four, we were already doing
speech, OT and the special education.

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We also added on Brain Balance, which
is a I thought a pretty well researched

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neuroscience based program, program.

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And we did that for like
two and a half years.

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I drove him, you know, 45 minutes
there and back twice a week.

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I also then had him in a feeding
clinic that was an hour and a

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half hour-ish away once a week
when he became Failure to Thrive.

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Did that for two years.

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So I was doing all of those
things and he continued to worse.

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Him and I, I will say that
occupational therapy, that has

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definitely helped him over time.

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I've actually followed and kept the same
occupational therapist the entire time.

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He's only been with one person, and that
has definitely helped, but like early on

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it wasn't, it wasn't getting him anywhere.

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It wasn't, it was not
helping the overall picture.

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Rupert Isaacson: Why do you
think he regressed and worsened

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under these therapies to the
point of needing a feeding tube?

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And what do you think
was going on with that?

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Dr. Megan McGavern:

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Well, I mean, one of the major, there
were a lot of, there were a lot of things

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going on then, you know, he would have
meltdowns all the time, and at that point

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we didn't know why or what, what was,
you know, but it was like he would have

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a meltdown for 45 minutes, couldn't do
anything about it, and then you were okay.

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You know, finally it was okay
and then, and then it would

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happen again like an hour later.

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It was just like you were
in a war zone all the time.

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One of the things that was going on with
school was he would not eat at school.

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I mean, what, what kid can like function
throughout the day and actually like,

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have any progress when you won't eat.

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But he wouldn't eat for other
people, it just, his eating

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just got more and more narrow.

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It had to be with the exact person at
the exact right time and the exact.

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Car seat or chair.

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I mean, if, if something was off
he then he just wouldn't eat and

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he surely wouldn't eat at school.

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We, we even tried so you to always
wanna get chili from Chili's restaurant,

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the grilled cheese and french fries.

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So I even literally like sort getting
that to go and then taking that to school.

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They even were nice enough and
gave us, they knew us so well

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because we would take him there.

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Cassie actually would take him
there like every day after school.

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My

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Rupert Isaacson: caregiver.

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Dr. Megan McGavern:

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Yep.

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She would take him to Chili's from school
so that he would finally, finally eat

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and then they like gave us the exact red
baskets that they used the paper so that

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we could try and mimic it at school.

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And he just, he just, he just
wouldn't also, you know, he, he

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took longer to potty train like you
mostly hear, but he did very well.

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I mean, he was potty trained by
four, four and a half, which, you

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know, I think that's reasonable.

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But, you know, he'd be at school and
they'd tell me he peed his pants.

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Yeah.

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It just was I just think it was
the environment, you know, they do

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their best, but I'm not putting any
school system down or sha you know,

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I just, they have limited resources.

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They have limited they have limited
help and I just don't think it

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was the right environment for him.

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Yeah, I, I get phone calls all the time.

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Oh, he bit somebody again.

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Oh, he won't come back into the
classroom after you tried to transition.

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I think the, the, the just the overall
environment was too stressful for him.

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And then also just not eating all day.

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I mean, who, who can, who can
function like that, you know?

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Yeah.

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I also found out like, I mean, this is
what it is, but being in a specialized

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education classroom, you know, you have
various special needs kids in there.

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Some are screaming all day, some
are banging their heads all day.

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Some are, some are aggressive, you
know, and, and I found out after

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the fact that you know, that there
were some aggressive kids with him.

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You know, he, he would come home and
he'd have marks on him, and the teachers

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wouldn't know where it was from.

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Like, you know, I think one of the
reasons why when he transitioned to say

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music and then he'd have to go back into
his main room, I think he didn't wanna

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go back in because of the, the high
stimulation that he was getting in there.

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That was just too much for him.

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I don't know.

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It was, it was, it was
very, very miserable.

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And, and he could never, it's not
like I could say Cole, you know,

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how was your day or what happened?

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I mean, there's there, there's
nothing like, you know, so, you know,

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sending your kid to a school where
you don't know what's happening, you

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don't know how they're responding
to when he, when he bites one of

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the teachers or bites somebody else.

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Like it is just very I.

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Just always on edge, always feeling like,
I don't know if I should be doing this.

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Maybe I should keep him home.

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Maybe I need to figure out how to
homeschool him, even though I am a

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full-time career person and wanted
nothing to do with homeschooling.

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Not that I think anything bad about
it, I just, I didn't wanna give up

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my career to, to homeschool him,
but it turns out I didn't have to.

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But, you know, that was like a very
big fear for me then to, to figure

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out how the heck was I gonna do that?

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And then when he turned five, another
thing that could've, you know, made

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him go worse, I don't know, was,
was that the twins were born when he

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was five, so I'm sure that was, you
know, potentially stressful for him.

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Yeah.

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Not right now.

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Cole, go read a book.

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No.

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No.

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Okay.

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Rupert Isaacson: So, okay, so school, I,
I can understand this because Rowan, my

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son, went through a very similar thing.

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He began to, you know, cry as
I was driving him up to school,

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he began to really, really,
really not want to go in there.

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And it got worse.

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And it got worse.

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And then after we took a
break from the local, I.

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Special ed school.

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We tried again at sort of the
Hippiest school we could find in

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a lovely naturey place in Austin.

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And he just, at that point, just flat out,
he was verbal enough to say he took off

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all his clothes, rolled around in the dirt
and said, I want to be a countryside boy.

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And that was even with him
being sent with a caregiver.

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And I was like, dude, I
hear you loud and clear.

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Alright, we'll do it.

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And of course we'd never look
back, but like you, I was like,

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I do not wanna homeschool.

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Yeah.

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But I kind of did.

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But like you, and we'll get
listeners, we'll get there that

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you can kind of homeschool and
not homeschool at the same time.

00:12:11.600 --> 00:12:15.410
It's actually possible to hit this really
interesting middle ground, but we'll,

00:12:15.470 --> 00:12:18.110
we'll, we'll get there in a minute.

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So just hold on for that.

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Let's go to the a BA.

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Why do you think the therapists were so
pushy with him and so uncompromising?

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Why, why do you think they were
not willing to work around and take

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a less pressure-filled approach?

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What was going on with it?

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Dr. Megan McGavern:

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I'm not sure, but I do know that
that we were getting therapists

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that were barely even trained.

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Like, it was in, at least in our
area there were not, there was a long

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wait list, and then you'd get in with
somebody and they'd say, oh yeah,

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they have somebody come out for you.

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And then and then he, and then the
person that would come out, like

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literally just started, literally
just finished their training.

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And I, I just don't think they
had the experience to I don't

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think they had the experience.

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Rupert Isaacson: Right.

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But it seems that, I mean, 'cause
we went through this as well with

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Rowan, that we had a very experienced
a, BA therapist, for example.

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But this person was not only unwilling
to modify anything for R no matter

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as you, you know, you were talking
about how distressed Cole was getting,

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you know, Rowan would literally
try to climb through the wall.

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And I remember thinking,
wow, I'm a horse trainer.

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If I am in a ramp him with a horse, and
the horse is trying to climb out over

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the fence to get away from me, I will at
least change something that I'm doing.

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Because just from a purely
selfish perspective, I could

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get killed in that situation.

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But that's such an extreme reaction that
it's telling one loud and clear that

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something needs to change, something
needs to be modified, something, you

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know, and I remember when we would
suggest this, the, we would get a

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very aggressive pushback rather than.

00:14:10.185 --> 00:14:10.635
Well, okay.

00:14:10.635 --> 00:14:12.975
I dunno, your kid, you know,
I'm not terribly experienced.

00:14:12.975 --> 00:14:13.755
What do you suggest?

00:14:13.755 --> 00:14:15.255
Or can we talk about this together?

00:14:15.255 --> 00:14:21.885
And there was no allowance of
the family, the parent, the

00:14:21.885 --> 00:14:24.165
kid, to have any kind of voice.

00:14:24.215 --> 00:14:27.275
So that, I can imagine that, you know,
some of these people coming out to you

00:14:27.395 --> 00:14:32.895
sure we're young and inexperienced they're
also human beings with some common sense.

00:14:33.855 --> 00:14:39.405
What do you think was preventing them
from just being able to exercise that

00:14:40.155 --> 00:14:41.835
compassion and common sense and just,

00:14:41.835 --> 00:14:41.836
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:14:41.835 --> 00:14:47.145
I think that they were just trying
to follow the protocol of what they

00:14:47.145 --> 00:14:50.985
were supposed to do and what they were
learn, what, what they were taught.

00:14:50.985 --> 00:14:56.805
And I don't think they knew
how I, I, I don't, yeah.

00:14:57.195 --> 00:15:02.025
To be honest, I, I think that a
lot A, BCBA gets paid a lot of

00:15:02.025 --> 00:15:05.025
money compared to like some other
things in the medical field.

00:15:05.355 --> 00:15:08.085
And I think a lot of people
look at that and like, oh,

00:15:08.085 --> 00:15:09.645
well I can get trained quickly.

00:15:09.885 --> 00:15:14.595
It's like 10, $12 more per hour than
what I would be able to make was

00:15:14.685 --> 00:15:18.105
with a different type of medical job.

00:15:18.135 --> 00:15:22.185
And I, and I honestly, I see that
frequently just as a physician.

00:15:22.285 --> 00:15:25.315
So I'm not even sure the people that are.

00:15:25.750 --> 00:15:29.230
You know, coming in that profession
are necessarily people that really

00:15:29.230 --> 00:15:32.200
have the heart for what they're doing.

00:15:32.290 --> 00:15:35.260
You know, I think it, it, it
pays well, I mean, it does.

00:15:35.260 --> 00:15:40.420
It's a well paying job and they train
you and it's a quick doesn't take

00:15:40.420 --> 00:15:46.090
as, I mean, I, again, I'm not trying
to, I don't wanna, I don't wanna

00:15:46.090 --> 00:15:49.810
put down a BA at all because I know
plenty of kids where it has totally

00:15:49.810 --> 00:15:53.530
helped them and they are, you know,
fully functional now and independent.

00:15:53.530 --> 00:15:59.380
I'm, I'm not trying to, this, this is
just my experience with it for about two

00:15:59.380 --> 00:16:01.390
and a half years that that's all I had.

00:16:01.420 --> 00:16:05.680
We had multiple people come because
they could, I don't know, it

00:16:05.680 --> 00:16:07.120
was just not a great experience.

00:16:07.595 --> 00:16:08.440
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.

00:16:09.070 --> 00:16:09.460
Okay.

00:16:09.460 --> 00:16:12.360
So then he ends up on
a feeding tube and he

00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:12.361
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:13.680
does not, he does not.

00:16:13.980 --> 00:16:16.530
Rupert Isaacson: Sorry, he ended
up on as failure to thrive.

00:16:17.190 --> 00:16:17.191
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:16:17.190 --> 00:16:18.150
He was, yep.

00:16:18.990 --> 00:16:22.450
He lost eight pounds at
a, at five years of age.

00:16:22.510 --> 00:16:22.930
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:16:22.930 --> 00:16:24.010
That's a lot at that age.

00:16:24.010 --> 00:16:24.250
Yeah.

00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:25.390
Yeah.

00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:27.720
And then you're headed, you're looking
into, you're sort of looking down the

00:16:27.720 --> 00:16:29.850
barrel of a, of a feeding tube basically.

00:16:30.420 --> 00:16:39.930
Then you came out to new trails and
I remember when we first met that two

00:16:39.930 --> 00:16:46.770
things really stood out, obviously, apart
from the, you know, just how big of a.

00:16:47.895 --> 00:16:49.215
Struggle you were going through?

00:16:49.735 --> 00:16:52.945
One was, when I first met
Cole was I remember thinking,

00:16:52.945 --> 00:16:55.375
wow, this is a tough cookie.

00:16:55.375 --> 00:17:01.165
This is somebody who, I dunno, I
dunno if I can do anything here.

00:17:01.165 --> 00:17:05.215
And I remember being pretty upfront
about that and just be like, I, I

00:17:05.215 --> 00:17:06.715
don't know, but let's give it a try.

00:17:07.215 --> 00:17:08.715
At least the environment
will be different.

00:17:08.715 --> 00:17:12.555
This we know and that there'll be certain
things that can happen with the horse.

00:17:12.555 --> 00:17:13.215
This we know.

00:17:15.335 --> 00:17:19.475
But I was rather worried
that he would hand me my ass.

00:17:19.955 --> 00:17:24.945
And, uh, but the other thing which I
remember you saying to me, and correct me

00:17:24.945 --> 00:17:30.795
if I'm wrong, was that you had actually
been told, or at least advised not to

00:17:30.795 --> 00:17:35.445
give physical or to withhold physical
affection from him if he didn't comply.

00:17:35.945 --> 00:17:40.325
I remember that being said,
and I remember thinking,

00:17:42.575 --> 00:17:49.175
I can't compute why any sort of mental
health professional for children

00:17:50.435 --> 00:17:51.905
would say something like that.

00:17:53.485 --> 00:17:54.925
And that, that brought me up short.

00:17:55.345 --> 00:17:59.185
Because I had also had these bad
experiences, the, the same experiences

00:17:59.185 --> 00:18:01.645
as you with a, b, a and some other.

00:18:02.485 --> 00:18:04.225
Behavioral types of, of therapy.

00:18:04.775 --> 00:18:06.455
And at that point I remember thinking, ah,

00:18:08.675 --> 00:18:13.715
the paradigm needs to shift because
it's as if people are saying the kids

00:18:13.715 --> 00:18:17.545
are naughty as if they're making some
sort of decision here to be bad as

00:18:17.545 --> 00:18:21.360
if they can actually understand and
follow top down instruction and are

00:18:21.365 --> 00:18:27.655
just somehow deciding not to, which
means that the entire landscape is

00:18:27.655 --> 00:18:30.145
just being so completely misunderstood.

00:18:30.665 --> 00:18:30.955
Yeah.

00:18:31.615 --> 00:18:31.915
You know,

00:18:35.595 --> 00:18:40.440
and you know, I remember thinking,
gosh, you know, if, if even a

00:18:42.690 --> 00:18:49.920
Navy physician can be kind of pushed
into that corner a little bit,

00:18:50.070 --> 00:18:52.080
then it just shows the power of

00:18:54.600 --> 00:18:59.160
the influence that people can wield
over people that are desperate.

00:19:01.910 --> 00:19:06.080
And that made me sad and it
also made me angry and it made

00:19:06.080 --> 00:19:09.785
me determined to not give up.

00:19:10.410 --> 00:19:16.950
Can you give us in your words, like
you were at trials for five days,

00:19:16.950 --> 00:19:19.860
I believe, and this was of course,
a radically different environment.

00:19:19.860 --> 00:19:22.470
You'd had to take this
very, very difficult.

00:19:23.280 --> 00:19:26.610
Human from Virginia to Texas.

00:19:26.610 --> 00:19:30.780
That's a, a long way and into the unknown.

00:19:32.850 --> 00:19:36.780
You arrive, there's a bunch of hippies,
you know, with ponies in the fields.

00:19:36.850 --> 00:19:39.370
What were you, what are you, what were
your impressions of those five days?

00:19:39.370 --> 00:19:39.400
I,

00:19:41.960 --> 00:19:41.961
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:19:41.960 --> 00:19:43.040
I remember

00:19:43.040 --> 00:19:51.050
so this is what I vividly remember
was first day, I think we talked at

00:19:51.050 --> 00:19:57.560
the, towards the end of the morning
or something, and I remember that I

00:19:57.560 --> 00:20:03.470
was so overwhelmed by, and I started
to well up with tears and, you know,

00:20:03.470 --> 00:20:06.440
and I was telling you that I was
doing speech therapy and occupational

00:20:06.440 --> 00:20:07.610
therapy and special education.

00:20:07.610 --> 00:20:08.600
He was getting that at the school.

00:20:08.600 --> 00:20:11.870
And I'm doing brain balance and I'm,
I'm going to the feeding clinic and

00:20:11.870 --> 00:20:14.900
I don't, in the brain balance stuff
was not just two days a week there.

00:20:14.900 --> 00:20:17.900
It was also every day at home I had to
do all these exercises and have them

00:20:17.900 --> 00:20:22.070
smell these different oils and have
them listen to this certain vibration.

00:20:22.070 --> 00:20:26.120
I mean, I mean it was like my
life was consumed by all of this.

00:20:26.180 --> 00:20:34.020
And you know, I just remember
like you saying, it's okay to.

00:20:34.815 --> 00:20:39.225
Like, take, take a step
back and reevaluate and

00:20:39.645 --> 00:20:41.205
maybe all this isn't needed.

00:20:41.265 --> 00:20:44.575
And there's a different
way to sort of look at it.

00:20:44.815 --> 00:20:49.805
And then I remember also that first
morning where we were, there was a

00:20:49.805 --> 00:20:53.245
swing set there and what's the name?

00:20:53.245 --> 00:20:55.395
Vonda I can't remember the girl's name.

00:20:55.795 --> 00:20:57.205
But she.

00:20:57.580 --> 00:21:00.040
He didn't wanna go on the swing
set, and I didn't really know what

00:21:00.040 --> 00:21:01.629
movement method was at that point.

00:21:01.629 --> 00:21:04.570
And, and she was just trying
to follow the child, right?

00:21:04.570 --> 00:21:06.489
And I'm like, Cole loves the swing set.

00:21:06.489 --> 00:21:07.090
Come on Cole.

00:21:07.090 --> 00:21:08.320
You would go on the swing.

00:21:08.320 --> 00:21:09.729
Come on here, take this swing.

00:21:09.729 --> 00:21:09.939
You know?

00:21:09.939 --> 00:21:13.239
Meanwhile, I'm supposed to be like, I
didn't know what movement method was

00:21:13.239 --> 00:21:16.600
at this point where, and, and Vonda
was just trying to follow him and

00:21:16.689 --> 00:21:20.320
f you know, and so I was like, no,
no, he really likes to swing here.

00:21:20.320 --> 00:21:20.949
Come on, cope.

00:21:21.040 --> 00:21:23.830
And I put him on the swing, you
know, and I, and then I realized

00:21:23.830 --> 00:21:26.469
like by the end of the week, I was
like, oh gosh, Megan, you're stupid.

00:21:26.469 --> 00:21:28.120
You're doing the exact wrong thing.

00:21:28.780 --> 00:21:33.370
And then that same morning, and I
still like, will post a video of this

00:21:33.399 --> 00:21:38.919
on social media when it comes up,
but he went on the horse and, and the

00:21:39.040 --> 00:21:44.769
biggest smile like that you can imagine
from cheek to cheek, and he laughed.

00:21:44.979 --> 00:21:47.979
And I mean, my God, I never,
like, I hardly ever heard it.

00:21:48.009 --> 00:21:49.719
I hardly ever saw a smile.

00:21:50.050 --> 00:21:51.580
I hardly ever heard the laugh.

00:21:51.580 --> 00:21:55.509
I mean, he was just always like,
it was just hell, like all the

00:21:55.509 --> 00:21:59.439
time and sadness, you know, you
couldn't do any normal stuff.

00:21:59.439 --> 00:22:01.629
And, and I was just like, oh my gosh.

00:22:01.749 --> 00:22:03.879
Oh my, you know, we and I were
like, and I, on the video,

00:22:03.879 --> 00:22:05.769
I'm like, look, he's smiling.

00:22:06.104 --> 00:22:07.074
Look, he's laughing.

00:22:07.330 --> 00:22:10.120
You know, like I was just
like, you know, the mom voice

00:22:10.120 --> 00:22:12.189
like screaming loud like I do.

00:22:12.189 --> 00:22:14.139
And and I was just like, oh my gosh.

00:22:14.170 --> 00:22:16.389
And then the next day it
was like the same thing.

00:22:16.570 --> 00:22:20.290
So we, we came in the morning
for five days straight and it was

00:22:20.290 --> 00:22:21.940
like three hour sessions, I think.

00:22:22.090 --> 00:22:24.070
And so by the end of the second day.

00:22:25.105 --> 00:22:29.964
That session we called, we
called home and canceled a BA.

00:22:30.234 --> 00:22:35.184
It was just like a clear, I, you know, I
felt empowered by you saying, well, you

00:22:35.184 --> 00:22:36.684
know, it's okay to try and change it.

00:22:36.684 --> 00:22:39.504
Just because this isn't working doesn't
mean there's not something else.

00:22:39.504 --> 00:22:41.694
Or maybe, you know, pull back
on some of these things and

00:22:41.694 --> 00:22:42.924
just focus on this one thing.

00:22:42.924 --> 00:22:45.954
It doesn't have to be all this
like 7,000 things that you're

00:22:46.284 --> 00:22:47.574
trying to do all the time.

00:22:47.574 --> 00:22:52.864
And and so I felt like empowered
that, yeah, you know, I already was

00:22:52.864 --> 00:22:56.704
following my gut, but I was, I was
so worried that if I wasn't doing all

00:22:56.704 --> 00:23:01.264
these treatments that, you know, are
supposed to help that, then what if

00:23:01.324 --> 00:23:03.604
that, what if he wouldn't get somewhere?

00:23:03.604 --> 00:23:07.084
Because I stopped one of them because
I felt like it wasn't working.

00:23:07.084 --> 00:23:09.574
So I just sort of needed
somebody else to say that to me.

00:23:09.664 --> 00:23:14.674
And then, yeah, so we called home that
afternoon and canceled a BA, which was

00:23:14.674 --> 00:23:18.214
like a big, that was a big decision to
make after, you know, 'cause you felt

00:23:18.214 --> 00:23:22.984
like that's what you're just told over
and over you know, to do a, BA to help

00:23:22.984 --> 00:23:24.454
with all the behavioral part of it.

00:23:24.574 --> 00:23:31.634
So, that was like the biggest things I
remember from, from that from that week.

00:23:33.044 --> 00:23:34.514
Rupert Isaacson: And then what
happened when you did go home?

00:23:36.345 --> 00:23:36.346
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:23:36.345 --> 00:23:42.105
Well, funny enough, so when, when I,
when I came home, the plan was, you know,

00:23:42.105 --> 00:23:44.115
always a plan, but the plan never happens.

00:23:44.515 --> 00:23:48.955
The plan was that we were gonna take
him outta school come January, so

00:23:48.955 --> 00:23:51.505
we were gonna have him finish his,
he was just starting first grade.

00:23:51.505 --> 00:23:53.425
He'd only been in it for like six weeks.

00:23:53.905 --> 00:23:56.915
And so I'm like, okay, this
is gonna gimme some time.

00:23:56.915 --> 00:24:00.725
You know, I wanna prepare, I wanna
find people to help me implement

00:24:00.725 --> 00:24:03.365
movement method and implement
a movement method program here.

00:24:03.875 --> 00:24:08.635
And what happens, like, about a week
and a half after we get back, he, I

00:24:08.635 --> 00:24:12.445
get a phone call from the school again,
he bit a teacher and the teacher's

00:24:12.445 --> 00:24:16.255
pregnant because, you know, he didn't
wanna go back into the classroom again.

00:24:16.255 --> 00:24:17.545
It was like a transition thing.

00:24:18.025 --> 00:24:22.965
And it was like mid-morning, I'm at work,
I'm in the middle of seeing patients and

00:24:22.965 --> 00:24:24.525
you know, it's just like, you feel bad.

00:24:24.525 --> 00:24:27.285
And I'm like, I'm so sorry, you
know, but at the same time it's like,

00:24:27.705 --> 00:24:33.075
enough is enough and I'm not gonna
swear, but enough is effing enough.

00:24:33.195 --> 00:24:38.985
And I called my husband and
I'm crying and I'm like, done.

00:24:39.015 --> 00:24:39.435
Done.

00:24:39.645 --> 00:24:40.755
Like, we can't do the same way.

00:24:40.755 --> 00:24:42.675
I can't, I can't get another phone call.

00:24:43.005 --> 00:24:43.995
I can't do this anymore.

00:24:44.055 --> 00:24:45.135
He's not okay there.

00:24:45.375 --> 00:24:46.395
This isn't okay.

00:24:46.875 --> 00:24:47.715
I'm gonna take him out.

00:24:47.955 --> 00:24:50.895
And my husband agreed with
me and then all of a sudden.

00:24:51.445 --> 00:24:54.115
I take 'em out and there
was no preparation.

00:24:54.175 --> 00:24:59.005
And then I call you and I'm flipping out
and I'm like, this was like a Thursday.

00:24:59.125 --> 00:25:04.075
And I call Rupert and I'm like, and oh,
then you're talking about, well, there's a

00:25:04.075 --> 00:25:08.695
whole books on unschooling, the schooling,
and you could go to your favorite places

00:25:08.695 --> 00:25:12.025
like Florida and whatever, and teaching
about the ocean and all this stuff.

00:25:12.025 --> 00:25:14.665
And I'm like, I didn't
know you well enough then.

00:25:14.665 --> 00:25:16.075
But I was like, I'm
gonna murder you ripper.

00:25:16.105 --> 00:25:16.735
I'm gonna murder you.

00:25:16.735 --> 00:25:18.805
I wanna plan, I wanna plan Now.

00:25:19.015 --> 00:25:20.425
I am a preparer.

00:25:20.425 --> 00:25:21.475
I'm Type A.

00:25:21.715 --> 00:25:23.875
Like I don't wanna hear about unschooling.

00:25:23.995 --> 00:25:26.725
I need to know, like, how do
I figure out the curriculum?

00:25:26.815 --> 00:25:28.285
How do I blah, blah, blah.

00:25:28.285 --> 00:25:29.185
And I was like, freaking out.

00:25:29.395 --> 00:25:32.935
And your phone call was just
like trying to get me to like

00:25:33.085 --> 00:25:34.795
totally get out of that mindset.

00:25:34.795 --> 00:25:37.885
And, and it was, you were all
like, correct about all that.

00:25:37.885 --> 00:25:44.275
But it was very hard to just have this big
open, oh, what the hell am I doing now?

00:25:44.275 --> 00:25:46.315
Like, oh my gosh, what am I doing now?

00:25:46.345 --> 00:25:48.355
Like, how, how am I gonna do this?

00:25:48.895 --> 00:25:49.105
You know?

00:25:49.105 --> 00:25:52.795
And also mind you, at the same time
I had n newborn while they were

00:25:52.855 --> 00:25:57.895
like 12 months old twins taking
care of and still working full time.

00:25:57.895 --> 00:26:02.335
So I mean, I was just like, I don't
know how the hell I'm gonna do this.

00:26:02.455 --> 00:26:06.535
But that's pretty much what happened
not long after I went to New Trails.

00:26:07.585 --> 00:26:10.045
Rupert Isaacson: Now you did
have one secret weapon at home.

00:26:10.045 --> 00:26:14.995
You had a, a very important
person who's still I.

00:26:15.925 --> 00:26:18.265
Very, very big in Cole's life.

00:26:18.265 --> 00:26:19.285
You had Cassie, right?

00:26:19.835 --> 00:26:28.034
You, you had a caregiver who was
by happy accident, by chance, by

00:26:28.034 --> 00:26:35.234
God, whatever, but devoted when
you had to pull Cole out of school.

00:26:36.129 --> 00:26:36.130
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:26:36.129 --> 00:26:36.549
Mm-hmm.

00:26:37.784 --> 00:26:39.614
Rupert Isaacson: You presumably
also, you didn't just ring me,

00:26:39.614 --> 00:26:40.964
you also sat down with Cassie.

00:26:41.464 --> 00:26:41.465
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:26:41.464 --> 00:26:41.704
Yeah.

00:26:42.814 --> 00:26:47.254
Rupert Isaacson: Talk us through that
conversation because both of you must

00:26:47.254 --> 00:26:50.104
have been thinking shit, you know, okay.

00:26:50.104 --> 00:26:50.824
What are we gonna do?

00:26:50.824 --> 00:26:54.064
This is sort of outside of both
our experiences, but here it is.

00:26:54.544 --> 00:26:55.024
Alright.

00:26:55.114 --> 00:27:00.634
You know, talk, talk, talk us
through a little bit that, that Well,

00:27:00.639 --> 00:27:00.640
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:27:00.639 --> 00:27:05.264
I, I mean, I would say first she was very
supportive and she was also, you know,

00:27:05.354 --> 00:27:10.114
she was also experiencing the same thing I
was going through with him and seeing him,

00:27:10.594 --> 00:27:12.154
you know, it was just, it was very sad.

00:27:12.154 --> 00:27:13.024
It was very hard.

00:27:13.024 --> 00:27:16.514
And, you know, I think she just
she stayed supportive, but that

00:27:16.514 --> 00:27:18.254
wasn't a hard thing at all.

00:27:18.495 --> 00:27:23.954
The harder part was, at that time, I was
still very private about his diagnosis.

00:27:23.954 --> 00:27:27.254
Like, my family still didn't
even know, because for me, I'm

00:27:27.254 --> 00:27:28.664
like, oh, I'm a smart doctor.

00:27:28.664 --> 00:27:31.784
You know, I'm gonna, you know, I'm
gonna implement all these therapies.

00:27:31.784 --> 00:27:34.154
Certainly by this birthday,
he's gonna be talking again.

00:27:34.154 --> 00:27:38.564
I kept, you know, not fix him in, you
know, I'm gonna say that in quotes,

00:27:38.564 --> 00:27:40.004
but like, I'm gonna fix the issue.

00:27:40.004 --> 00:27:43.724
Like, I, I'm doing, I'm,
I'm, I'm reading everything.

00:27:43.724 --> 00:27:46.844
I'm trying to, and I kept thinking,
oh, we'll, surely buy six.

00:27:46.874 --> 00:27:49.574
Surely, honestly, surely buy three.

00:27:49.694 --> 00:27:52.364
Then every birthday that came,
it was just Saturn and Saturn.

00:27:52.924 --> 00:27:59.504
So I didn't, I didn't really have
the desire or I thought it would be a

00:27:59.504 --> 00:28:03.824
bad idea because if family found out
from me advertising that I'm looking

00:28:03.824 --> 00:28:08.324
for, you know, someone, a homeschool
assistant that's interested in

00:28:08.324 --> 00:28:11.144
being trained in movement method and
stuff, that then they would find out.

00:28:11.144 --> 00:28:13.124
And I just wasn't ready to tell.

00:28:13.784 --> 00:28:15.074
I just wasn't ready to tell 'em yet.

00:28:15.104 --> 00:28:18.495
I was, you know, I, I am still
a very private person, but this,

00:28:18.524 --> 00:28:20.594
all this has had to make me.

00:28:21.419 --> 00:28:22.590
Be very public.

00:28:22.620 --> 00:28:25.080
And that was a, that was
a difficult transition.

00:28:25.419 --> 00:28:29.110
But now I realize like
how alone I was then.

00:28:29.110 --> 00:28:32.710
And I have these moms that come out, you
know, especially on sensory Saturdays.

00:28:32.710 --> 00:28:35.020
I, I spend a lot of time with
the parents there while their

00:28:35.020 --> 00:28:37.030
kids are enjoying the event.

00:28:37.090 --> 00:28:40.870
And I'm just like, everything that
they're saying, especially like the

00:28:40.870 --> 00:28:45.669
newly, you know, diagnosed kids with
their moms and how lonely they feel

00:28:45.669 --> 00:28:49.120
and how so upsetting, you know, the
best friend, their kids neurotypical.

00:28:49.120 --> 00:28:52.389
But, you know, we can't, we can't do
anything together, you know, whatever.

00:28:52.840 --> 00:28:59.320
And I, I, I realize now how lonely
that was and, you know, probably

00:28:59.320 --> 00:29:04.799
would've gone, maybe I wouldn't have
felt so sad if, if I had opened up

00:29:04.799 --> 00:29:09.330
to a bigger support group, but that
just wasn't, just wasn't on my radar.

00:29:09.330 --> 00:29:09.749
This is one of the

00:29:09.749 --> 00:29:11.759
Rupert Isaacson: big, this is one
of the big issues and I think anyone

00:29:11.759 --> 00:29:15.041
who's working in our field because
you and I are colleagues now knows

00:29:15.041 --> 00:29:19.311
this, which is the, the big kicker is
loneliness as you say, and isolation.

00:29:19.311 --> 00:29:22.311
Because if you've got the kid who
takes the shit in the supermarket

00:29:22.311 --> 00:29:25.641
while you're at, you know, standing
in line it, that you can only do that

00:29:25.641 --> 00:29:28.681
so many times with everybody looking
at you before you start not going to

00:29:28.681 --> 00:29:30.061
the supermarket if you can avoid it.

00:29:30.061 --> 00:29:36.511
And so it's, and you know, at
most therapy places, the, the

00:29:36.511 --> 00:29:37.801
parents don't meet each other.

00:29:37.801 --> 00:29:42.211
So there, there isn't any possibility
for community or connection.

00:29:42.331 --> 00:29:45.001
And the online community is
okay, well, they're better than

00:29:45.001 --> 00:29:47.491
nothing, but it's not the same.

00:29:47.851 --> 00:29:49.306
So you,

00:29:50.371 --> 00:29:50.372
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:29:50.371 --> 00:29:57.501
oh, may I interject there too also
I did go to like a s like a support

00:29:57.501 --> 00:30:02.571
thing where like they were met at
Panera and we, and I went one time

00:30:02.755 --> 00:30:04.176
Rupert Isaacson: we being
your husband, right?

00:30:04.515 --> 00:30:04.516
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:30:04.515 --> 00:30:04.735
Yes.

00:30:04.910 --> 00:30:05.630
We uhhuh and I felt we

00:30:05.630 --> 00:30:07.186
Rupert Isaacson:
listeners he's Vietnamese.

00:30:07.605 --> 00:30:08.146
American.

00:30:08.265 --> 00:30:08.595
Mm-hmm.

00:30:08.626 --> 00:30:10.706
So his name we is from there.

00:30:10.706 --> 00:30:14.036
So if you're just wondering, you
know, if that's an exotic sounding

00:30:14.036 --> 00:30:15.056
name, that's where it comes from.

00:30:15.236 --> 00:30:15.476
Okay.

00:30:15.476 --> 00:30:17.156
So you, you're at Panera and

00:30:17.456 --> 00:30:17.456
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:30:17.456 --> 00:30:18.626
Yeah, we're at Panera.

00:30:18.626 --> 00:30:21.476
And then it was just like, as
soon as they found out we were

00:30:21.476 --> 00:30:24.536
physicians, ah, I don't know.

00:30:24.536 --> 00:30:27.416
I just, you know, then there, there
were medical questions being asked of

00:30:27.416 --> 00:30:31.136
me and all this, and, and then I was
no longer there as the parent, right.

00:30:31.226 --> 00:30:33.896
I was there as, oh, well what do you,
you know, what do you think about,

00:30:34.136 --> 00:30:35.306
they was not supportive at all.

00:30:35.306 --> 00:30:40.526
I never went back again, so, you
know, so, I just I just felt even more

00:30:40.526 --> 00:30:44.096
violated from a privacy standpoint
because now all these people in

00:30:44.096 --> 00:30:45.446
this particular area know that Dr.

00:30:45.446 --> 00:30:48.066
McGovern, whose office is
right there her son's alter.

00:30:48.156 --> 00:30:48.606
I don't know.

00:30:48.606 --> 00:30:49.745
I mean, there's nothing wrong with it.

00:30:49.745 --> 00:30:52.806
I just, I just felt so
private about it then.

00:30:52.896 --> 00:30:53.196
Well,

00:30:53.196 --> 00:30:55.926
Rupert Isaacson: as you say that, that
that's, it's, it's all about timing.

00:30:55.926 --> 00:30:57.126
One, one is ready for, yeah.

00:30:57.515 --> 00:31:00.036
Ready for emotionally when one's
ready for it and not before.

00:31:00.036 --> 00:31:00.846
What can you say?

00:31:01.566 --> 00:31:01.567
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:31:01.566 --> 00:31:01.956
Yeah.

00:31:02.166 --> 00:31:02.946
Rupert Isaacson: You know, I hear you.

00:31:03.126 --> 00:31:07.341
So, okay, so you take the big
step, you, you stop the a BA,

00:31:07.805 --> 00:31:09.545
you implement movement method.

00:31:09.676 --> 00:31:12.765
Presumably it's working or you
wouldn't have kept going with it.

00:31:12.896 --> 00:31:12.956
Oh

00:31:13.166 --> 00:31:13.167
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:31:13.166 --> 00:31:13.586
yeah.

00:31:13.825 --> 00:31:15.596
Rupert Isaacson: So what
were the first things?

00:31:15.946 --> 00:31:19.605
'cause at this stage there's no horses
involved, so listeners don't worry.

00:31:19.696 --> 00:31:22.395
Horses are gonna come into the
picture and they're gonna come

00:31:22.395 --> 00:31:23.686
into the picture in a big way.

00:31:25.365 --> 00:31:32.495
But early on, you know, picture, this is
suburban America, it's, it's a nice suburb

00:31:32.495 --> 00:31:35.765
and yes, sure the countryside isn't far
away, but it's, this is not farm country.

00:31:36.245 --> 00:31:47.495
And so Megan, you are there and talk us
through a little bit your, the issues

00:31:47.495 --> 00:31:52.715
you would have at home and talk us
through a little bit what you did with

00:31:52.715 --> 00:31:54.905
Movement Method in those early stages.

00:31:55.985 --> 00:31:55.986
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:31:55.985 --> 00:31:56.465
Okay.

00:31:57.305 --> 00:32:00.875
Well, so one of the first things
that happened after that was that you

00:32:00.875 --> 00:32:04.805
sent Julia and Julian to me and they
stayed in my house for three weeks.

00:32:04.865 --> 00:32:04.955
Yeah.

00:32:05.135 --> 00:32:09.695
And so they basically helped me set up,
you know, they went to local places.

00:32:09.695 --> 00:32:15.005
They, they started it and started taking
coal every morning to some nature area.

00:32:15.315 --> 00:32:20.205
I, I spent, you know, a good bit of
money, like getting a membership at the

00:32:20.205 --> 00:32:24.795
Virginia Living Museum when, where I took
you one time and he used to, you know,

00:32:24.946 --> 00:32:27.795
he doesn't go there as much anymore,
but that used to be a very common spot.

00:32:27.795 --> 00:32:32.775
And you know, just money on, like, setting
up the homeschooling stuff and what, what,

00:32:32.866 --> 00:32:34.366
what I needed to get and all of that.

00:32:34.366 --> 00:32:37.096
And that, that was very helpful.

00:32:37.165 --> 00:32:42.086
And then I just was trying to hire
people sort of on the down low just

00:32:42.086 --> 00:32:43.555
because again, I didn't want it to be.

00:32:43.916 --> 00:32:45.476
Publicly advertised.

00:32:45.535 --> 00:32:50.485
And I went through a couple people, Cassie
was sort of overseeing you know, what was

00:32:50.485 --> 00:32:55.075
going on and involved and, and knowing,
you know, knowing what was going on.

00:32:55.075 --> 00:32:58.125
And so, you know, pretty much he'd
have sessions every morning and

00:32:58.125 --> 00:32:59.715
that's still what he does to date.

00:32:59.715 --> 00:33:04.935
He has, he has sessions every morning
pretty much from like, say eight to 12,

00:33:05.175 --> 00:33:09.785
where he's, you know, outside somewhere
or, or you know, whatever, whatever it is.

00:33:09.875 --> 00:33:14.105
But his, his session is pretty much
somewhere between eight and nine to to 12.

00:33:14.525 --> 00:33:17.765
And then when the horse got added
in, then there was me in the

00:33:17.765 --> 00:33:20.075
afternoon, every afternoon after work.

00:33:20.105 --> 00:33:22.115
So it was like twice a day kind of thing.

00:33:22.120 --> 00:33:22.310
But,

00:33:22.320 --> 00:33:23.400
Rupert Isaacson: But what did you notice?

00:33:23.400 --> 00:33:25.080
What, what were the improvements
with the movement method?

00:33:25.080 --> 00:33:27.690
Like why did you think, yeah, okay, this
is working, I'm gonna stick with this.

00:33:29.220 --> 00:33:29.221
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:33:29.220 --> 00:33:33.090
Well, I started number one, being
able to actually realize that he

00:33:33.090 --> 00:33:38.280
knows things, like to academically
measure what he knows, because there

00:33:38.280 --> 00:33:42.240
was none of that honestly going on
in his special education classroom.

00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:46.070
Just 'cause I, again, I think they were,
you know, there's hot what, six, seven

00:33:46.070 --> 00:33:51.130
kids with their own in individual IEPs
and, just trying to put out fires all day.

00:33:51.680 --> 00:33:58.010
So I, I saw him like being able
to, you know, I learned what

00:33:58.010 --> 00:34:00.680
he, what he likes with learning.

00:34:00.710 --> 00:34:03.050
For example, he loves puzzles.

00:34:03.110 --> 00:34:05.960
I knew that beforehand,
but he loves Velcro.

00:34:06.350 --> 00:34:11.030
Like if you laminate answers and
have Velcro dots and then you pick

00:34:11.030 --> 00:34:14.360
the answer, like you hold up two
answers and then you let him pick

00:34:14.360 --> 00:34:15.740
the answer and put it on the thing.

00:34:16.020 --> 00:34:17.340
That's how I started knowing.

00:34:17.490 --> 00:34:21.240
Oh, he knows who that, that's Jacque
Csau and not Theodore Roosevelt.

00:34:21.530 --> 00:34:23.240
You know, like for every subject.

00:34:23.570 --> 00:34:24.710
Also magnets.

00:34:24.710 --> 00:34:25.760
He loves magnets.

00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:28.940
So, you know, when it's that age,
you know, first grade, they still

00:34:28.940 --> 00:34:30.560
have tons of those kinds of things.

00:34:30.740 --> 00:34:32.630
We used Oriental Trading Company.

00:34:32.630 --> 00:34:34.370
I still use them a lot.

00:34:34.430 --> 00:34:38.180
Not necessarily for schooling
anymore, but that is a super cheap

00:34:38.180 --> 00:34:43.430
resource that has all those kinds of
things and different ways to learn.

00:34:43.890 --> 00:34:47.640
But I, I started basically
individualizing his curriculum.

00:34:47.700 --> 00:34:49.140
I do that every year now.

00:34:49.140 --> 00:34:51.360
Like it's just become
that routine of my summer.

00:34:51.360 --> 00:34:56.250
I order everything that I wanna do in
June, and then I, I go through it and

00:34:56.250 --> 00:34:59.730
then I have curriculum planning meetings
until he starts again in September.

00:35:00.130 --> 00:35:04.120
So I started seeing him basically.

00:35:05.530 --> 00:35:07.390
Tell me that he knew stuff.

00:35:08.080 --> 00:35:13.030
Not, not necessarily verbally, the verbal
part didn't come until the horse, but

00:35:13.030 --> 00:35:18.250
as far as like him not getting upset
or the meltdowns all the time or all

00:35:18.250 --> 00:35:20.570
of that that started to calm down.

00:35:20.750 --> 00:35:24.440
And then again, academically, I
started to be able to know that like

00:35:24.440 --> 00:35:26.120
he did know what I was asking him.

00:35:26.240 --> 00:35:29.570
He just couldn't verbally
say it or did, couldn't do

00:35:30.590 --> 00:35:31.430
Rupert Isaacson: feel heard and seen.

00:35:32.480 --> 00:35:32.481
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:35:32.480 --> 00:35:33.170
Say that again.

00:35:33.230 --> 00:35:35.090
Rupert Isaacson: Do you think he
started to feel heard and seen?

00:35:35.790 --> 00:35:35.791
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:35:35.790 --> 00:35:36.780
Yeah, I think so.

00:35:36.780 --> 00:35:39.120
I think definitely taking him out
of that environment, the environment

00:35:39.120 --> 00:35:40.260
that he was not doing well in.

00:35:40.260 --> 00:35:40.710
Yes.

00:35:40.710 --> 00:35:42.000
I, I, I think so.

00:35:42.780 --> 00:35:48.270
And it was also helpful because, I mean,
the eating thing was still going on, but

00:35:48.270 --> 00:35:50.940
it was, you know, starting to get better.

00:35:51.090 --> 00:35:54.060
But, you know, it wasn't like he was
going all day without eating anymore.

00:35:54.930 --> 00:35:55.170
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:35:55.170 --> 00:35:55.230
Yeah.

00:35:55.730 --> 00:36:00.405
And I remember when I made my first
visit up to you it was not as severe as

00:36:00.405 --> 00:36:02.055
it had been in Texas, but it was still

00:36:02.985 --> 00:36:02.986
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:36:02.985 --> 00:36:03.375
Yeah.

00:36:03.435 --> 00:36:04.035
Rupert Isaacson: Pretty extreme.

00:36:04.085 --> 00:36:08.405
You know, you have the pool, you have
the pool in the backyard, and he was in

00:36:08.405 --> 00:36:12.185
it for hours at a time, maximum energy.

00:36:12.395 --> 00:36:15.275
And I remember looking at him and
going, wow, that was the energy he

00:36:15.275 --> 00:36:16.925
was taking to a special ed classroom.

00:36:17.225 --> 00:36:17.975
You know, just Right.

00:36:18.035 --> 00:36:20.705
No way they'd have been able to
handle that, like in the, with the

00:36:20.705 --> 00:36:21.785
best will in the world, you know?

00:36:21.785 --> 00:36:21.875
Right.

00:36:22.295 --> 00:36:26.150
But you know, being able to
teach through that suddenly.

00:36:26.765 --> 00:36:29.435
That not being something you're fighting,
that being something you can go with.

00:36:29.675 --> 00:36:34.715
The other thing I remember was when
I was there, him disappearing into a

00:36:34.715 --> 00:36:38.855
neighbor's house across the street naked
and just sort of wandering through.

00:36:38.855 --> 00:36:43.445
And you know that even though this is
south of the Mason Dixon line, Virginia,

00:36:43.445 --> 00:36:51.005
you know, it's people are gun happy and
property proud and all of that stuff.

00:36:51.275 --> 00:36:53.675
And it's so, it's, you know,
listeners who are not American.

00:36:53.675 --> 00:36:54.965
It's, it's, it's dangerous.

00:36:54.965 --> 00:36:56.985
It's dangerous to enter
other people's property oh

00:36:57.270 --> 00:36:57.271
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:36:57.270 --> 00:36:57.330
yeah.

00:36:57.330 --> 00:36:57.600
Even

00:36:57.600 --> 00:36:58.710
Rupert Isaacson: sometimes as a kid.

00:36:59.190 --> 00:37:02.340
And it's equally, can be equally
dangerous to go and retrieve them.

00:37:02.910 --> 00:37:02.970
Yeah.

00:37:03.510 --> 00:37:06.500
You know, and I remember you were
still going through that, you know, but

00:37:06.500 --> 00:37:09.695
things were clearly better and Right.

00:37:09.915 --> 00:37:12.800
He was, you know, exhibiting, I
remember, you know, you were really

00:37:12.800 --> 00:37:16.760
following his Thomas the tank engine
obsession and beginning to teach him

00:37:16.760 --> 00:37:18.440
literacy through that and so on and

00:37:18.515 --> 00:37:18.516
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:37:18.515 --> 00:37:19.040
Right, right.

00:37:19.100 --> 00:37:19.520
I remember thinking,

00:37:19.520 --> 00:37:21.530
Rupert Isaacson: thinking, wow,
you know, she's really on it.

00:37:22.010 --> 00:37:26.810
But then you flummoxed me because then
I was like, okay, well this is good.

00:37:26.810 --> 00:37:34.010
This is definitely, you know, 75% better
than what we were seeing in Texas.

00:37:35.180 --> 00:37:37.490
But then you, you call me up
and say, yeah, but Rupert,

00:37:37.580 --> 00:37:38.870
there's got to be horses.

00:37:39.770 --> 00:37:41.390
And I'm like, well, why?

00:37:41.420 --> 00:37:45.620
Because you know, this oxytocin and
BDNF effect that we're talking about,

00:37:46.250 --> 00:37:49.250
you know, for neuroplasticity, you, you
know, you can get this without horses.

00:37:49.250 --> 00:37:52.730
And remember, you know, most of the time
with RO and I wasn't on the horse, you

00:37:52.730 --> 00:37:56.960
know, I was having to implement what's
now called movement method at home.

00:37:57.440 --> 00:38:01.310
You know, so even if Rowan was really
into the horse, you know, I still had

00:38:01.310 --> 00:38:04.580
to do all this stuff off the horse
and, you know, you're not a horseman.

00:38:04.580 --> 00:38:08.210
So it's kind of irrelevant really,
because, you know, we don't, there's

00:38:08.210 --> 00:38:13.100
no, there's no horse boy place in
your neighborhood and okay, you could

00:38:13.100 --> 00:38:17.450
try some other therapeutic riding
stuff, but chances are, you know, it

00:38:17.450 --> 00:38:21.650
won't necessarily be an environment
where they'll allow him to be him.

00:38:23.530 --> 00:38:26.170
But you wouldn't take no for an answer.

00:38:26.530 --> 00:38:27.010
Why?

00:38:28.900 --> 00:38:28.901
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:38:28.900 --> 00:38:33.070
Because I saw, I saw how
he responded on the horse.

00:38:33.190 --> 00:38:37.730
That's why I saw how he I hadn't seen
him like that with pretty much anything

00:38:37.730 --> 00:38:39.350
else except for Thomas the train.

00:38:39.940 --> 00:38:48.640
But that, that's why I just felt like
this was my shot at potentially getting

00:38:48.640 --> 00:38:55.660
him to speak and I was gonna do whatever
I needed to do to give him that shot.

00:38:57.670 --> 00:39:00.010
Rupert Isaacson: So listeners, I
want you to put yourself in my shoes.

00:39:00.010 --> 00:39:01.300
My, me as Rupert right now.

00:39:01.300 --> 00:39:04.720
So, Megan, as you, you can
imagine, is a, is a, is a strong

00:39:04.720 --> 00:39:10.170
personality and and, and, and, and
somewhat of, of, of an achiever.

00:39:11.100 --> 00:39:17.190
And so I begin to get communication
saying, yeah, but look, Rupert,

00:39:17.190 --> 00:39:20.280
I've gotta get a horse and I've
gotta, you know, get this together.

00:39:20.280 --> 00:39:23.070
And I'm like, no,
Meghan, you don't because

00:39:25.555 --> 00:39:27.120
you, you don't know from horses.

00:39:27.360 --> 00:39:34.180
And this is decades and decades and
decades of experience needed, and

00:39:34.180 --> 00:39:40.090
particularly for this kind of work, you
know, the stakes are so high and you know,

00:39:40.090 --> 00:39:46.180
no, it's gonna cost you, it's gonna cost
you ridiculous money and you still won't

00:39:46.180 --> 00:39:50.440
know if you are because you have to set
up your own show, you know, and you dunno

00:39:50.440 --> 00:39:54.970
how to, and you, you, you'll, you won't
even know, you know, you won't know how

00:39:54.970 --> 00:39:57.670
to hire the right staff and you won't
know if they're even doing the right job.

00:39:57.670 --> 00:39:59.140
And they'll, they'll walk all over you.

00:39:59.140 --> 00:40:04.510
'cause horsey people are like that
and it's just not safe, you know?

00:40:04.540 --> 00:40:06.400
So, no, no, I'm sorry.

00:40:06.400 --> 00:40:07.750
We're gonna stick with movement method.

00:40:08.140 --> 00:40:11.200
And I remember several
of these communications.

00:40:12.670 --> 00:40:13.030
What?

00:40:13.420 --> 00:40:18.130
And, and I was being pretty
reasonable with that.

00:40:19.390 --> 00:40:19.600
I.

00:40:20.485 --> 00:40:24.955
And movement method is, you know, we,
we, we've, we've had obviously, you

00:40:24.955 --> 00:40:28.765
know, a lot of success with that, with,
with, with people who've never, you

00:40:28.765 --> 00:40:29.965
know, touched a horse, seen a horse.

00:40:30.235 --> 00:40:32.965
So again, the equine assisted side.

00:40:33.025 --> 00:40:35.515
And you know, I have great
faith in your decision now with

00:40:35.935 --> 00:40:36.925
everything that's happened.

00:40:37.375 --> 00:40:40.615
But what was going on there was some, it
was, it wasn't just what you'd observed.

00:40:40.615 --> 00:40:42.055
I think there must be
something in your gut.

00:40:42.055 --> 00:40:44.635
What was going on in
your gut that made Oh,

00:40:45.025 --> 00:40:45.026
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:40:45.025 --> 00:40:47.725
my gut, my gut was telling me I
needed to do this and 'cause I was

00:40:47.725 --> 00:40:49.795
Rupert Isaacson: giving you, because
you knew that, what I was telling

00:40:49.795 --> 00:40:53.305
you when I was trying to talk you out
of it, you knew that that was truth.

00:40:53.305 --> 00:40:56.575
You knew that that was you trying
to look up your best interest.

00:40:56.575 --> 00:40:56.875
Right?

00:40:57.535 --> 00:40:57.536
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:40:57.535 --> 00:40:57.835
Yeah.

00:40:57.835 --> 00:40:58.135
Yeah.

00:40:58.140 --> 00:41:01.525
But I mean, my perspective
is, well, I, I can handle it.

00:41:01.555 --> 00:41:03.595
I, I can, I can do it.

00:41:03.765 --> 00:41:05.160
I will get the people, it's all the horse

00:41:05.245 --> 00:41:07.045
Rupert Isaacson: people chuckling
as they drive listening to this.

00:41:08.065 --> 00:41:08.066
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:41:08.065 --> 00:41:08.815
Right, right.

00:41:08.815 --> 00:41:12.685
I mean, I felt, I felt like I, I could
do, I mean, I don't know, I've, I've,

00:41:12.865 --> 00:41:15.085
I've accomplished a lot in my life.

00:41:15.085 --> 00:41:19.065
I mean, I'm not gonna speak about
myself here, but I, there was no

00:41:19.065 --> 00:41:22.485
reason that I couldn't do this
when I've done other things.

00:41:22.485 --> 00:41:23.865
That, that was my bottom line.

00:41:24.225 --> 00:41:28.215
And if this is gonna make it so that
my kid can talk or potentially become

00:41:28.215 --> 00:41:32.415
independent or potentially go to
college one day, I mean, it, there

00:41:32.415 --> 00:41:33.945
was, it was not even a question.

00:41:34.125 --> 00:41:36.975
There was, there was no,
there was no question.

00:41:36.975 --> 00:41:39.285
I wasn't, I never doubted
my thought about that.

00:41:39.495 --> 00:41:44.565
I was following my gut instinct
and I knew my ability to achieve,

00:41:44.655 --> 00:41:45.615
and that was the end of it.

00:41:47.370 --> 00:41:47.730
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:41:47.730 --> 00:41:49.080
It, it's the only on

00:41:49.080 --> 00:41:49.081
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:41:49.080 --> 00:41:52.140
my side of you're asking me like,
what, what was I, yeah, yeah.

00:41:52.260 --> 00:41:55.650
Why was I still, that was my side
of it, like how I was viewing it,

00:41:56.520 --> 00:41:58.590
Rupert Isaacson: because, you know,
I was being absolutely upfront.

00:41:58.590 --> 00:42:04.620
I was like, it is gonna cost you more
money than you can possibly imagine

00:42:04.620 --> 00:42:09.210
it's going because you know you are
gonna have to learn from scratch.

00:42:09.840 --> 00:42:09.841
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:42:09.840 --> 00:42:10.140
Right?

00:42:10.190 --> 00:42:10.820
Rupert Isaacson: And

00:42:12.860 --> 00:42:16.550
what happened was, listeners I was
adamant that we weren't gonna do it.

00:42:17.050 --> 00:42:20.290
Because I was like, I, I
can't put my name to that.

00:42:20.290 --> 00:42:23.830
You know, it, it, it is, it'll
just go horribly wrong, you know?

00:42:23.890 --> 00:42:27.160
No, it's this, you've gotta
remember, this is also a thousand

00:42:27.160 --> 00:42:28.270
miles away from where I live.

00:42:28.270 --> 00:42:31.390
It's not like it's just down the
road and I can, you know, pop in and

00:42:31.540 --> 00:42:33.460
make sure everything's going okay.

00:42:34.660 --> 00:42:42.070
But what happened was, you talked me
into it, Meghan and I still to this day,

00:42:43.600 --> 00:42:45.700
can't believe that I got talked into it.

00:42:45.850 --> 00:42:46.810
And then what?

00:42:46.810 --> 00:42:50.740
So what I said was, you know, all right,
I'm gonna be, I'm gonna level with you.

00:42:50.800 --> 00:42:53.260
This is pretty much what
it'll cost you if you do this.

00:42:53.290 --> 00:42:54.430
'cause you're gonna have to buy land.

00:42:54.430 --> 00:42:57.250
You're gonna have to, you know,
you're gonna have to look at all that.

00:42:57.400 --> 00:42:58.000
Eventually I.

00:42:58.780 --> 00:43:00.400
Because you're gonna have
to control the environment.

00:43:00.400 --> 00:43:03.190
You can't just, like, okay, you
might start by boarding a horse

00:43:03.190 --> 00:43:05.680
somewhere, but you, you'll not be,
you know, you won't find that those

00:43:05.680 --> 00:43:07.780
people are tolerant of your kid.

00:43:07.780 --> 00:43:10.660
And even if they are, they won't know
how to create a safe environment for him.

00:43:11.240 --> 00:43:11.270
Right.

00:43:11.270 --> 00:43:15.555
They, they won't not run the tractor
when he's around, or the leafblower or

00:43:15.555 --> 00:43:20.415
the chainsaw or the put up the dog or
whatever, or, you know, let alone what

00:43:20.415 --> 00:43:21.675
other people are doing with horses.

00:43:22.285 --> 00:43:27.055
And him running into the arena, you know,
naked and they're not gonna, they're

00:43:27.055 --> 00:43:28.495
not gonna be sympathetic, you know?

00:43:28.545 --> 00:43:28.605
Yeah.

00:43:29.595 --> 00:43:33.375
And then I thought, well, but if you
do do this, the only way, the only way

00:43:33.375 --> 00:43:37.785
it can work is if the horse has been
trained by us and it's, and not just

00:43:37.785 --> 00:43:44.175
trained by us, but has been with us for
a long time, and we like, really, so

00:43:44.295 --> 00:43:48.735
I thought we actually have to give up
one of our best horses for this a horse

00:43:48.735 --> 00:43:52.215
that I know can operate without us.

00:43:53.115 --> 00:43:56.685
And as anyone listening knows,
and as you now know, Meghan, those

00:43:56.685 --> 00:43:58.335
horses are like gold, you know?

00:43:58.335 --> 00:43:58.425
Right.

00:43:58.785 --> 00:43:59.685
Don't let them go.

00:43:59.685 --> 00:44:01.095
I don't sell horses.

00:44:02.115 --> 00:44:04.815
You are the only person
I've ever sold a horse to.

00:44:05.325 --> 00:44:07.545
I have donated some horses.

00:44:07.545 --> 00:44:14.715
I've, I've loaned some horses to be school
master horses in other places, but, you

00:44:14.715 --> 00:44:20.445
know, taken back if I need to or, but
I've never, ever sold a horse before and.

00:44:21.555 --> 00:44:25.335
I remember me and Ana going, you know,
can we even, could we do without Hanya?

00:44:25.335 --> 00:44:30.555
This is the only horse that was cool
enough, quiet enough to know that, you

00:44:30.555 --> 00:44:34.995
know, and well-trained enough in the
collection to give the oxytocin effect

00:44:34.995 --> 00:44:38.805
for that brings speech, but okay.

00:44:39.135 --> 00:44:42.795
So we did it and against my
better judgment, we did it.

00:44:43.065 --> 00:44:49.515
And can you talk us through what
happened from when you first

00:44:49.515 --> 00:44:54.045
got Hanya to where you are now?

00:44:54.255 --> 00:44:57.605
Because the thing I want you guys
to know, listeners, is that Megan

00:44:57.605 --> 00:45:02.225
is in no way my client, Megan,
is in every way, my colleague.

00:45:03.505 --> 00:45:05.425
And we, we meet as equals on this.

00:45:05.975 --> 00:45:08.945
But as you can imagine, it
was a steep learning curve.

00:45:08.975 --> 00:45:11.285
So, so take us through that
steep learning curve, Megan.

00:45:12.155 --> 00:45:12.156
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:45:12.155 --> 00:45:21.375
Okay, so she arrived April of 2018 and
I've, I boarded her locally and hired

00:45:21.555 --> 00:45:29.515
a horse person, hired another like
teacher home assistant type person and

00:45:29.785 --> 00:45:31.255
Rupert Isaacson: who we
trained in our methods.

00:45:31.630 --> 00:45:31.631
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:45:31.630 --> 00:45:32.500
Right, right.

00:45:32.500 --> 00:45:32.980
Sorry.

00:45:32.980 --> 00:45:36.100
And then we started
taking him out every day.

00:45:36.100 --> 00:45:37.195
Rupert Isaacson: Not that it did any good.

00:45:37.645 --> 00:45:37.995
Sorry.

00:45:38.095 --> 00:45:38.096
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:45:38.095 --> 00:45:38.635
What's that?

00:45:38.935 --> 00:45:40.275
Rupert Isaacson: Not what
that it did any good.

00:45:40.985 --> 00:45:40.986
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:45:40.985 --> 00:45:41.635
Yeah, right.

00:45:41.860 --> 00:45:44.980
Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed
today's conversation as much as I did.

00:45:45.520 --> 00:45:50.420
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00:45:50.430 --> 00:45:54.600
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00:45:54.600 --> 00:45:56.480
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00:45:56.630 --> 00:45:59.710
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00:45:59.720 --> 00:46:02.400
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00:46:02.790 --> 00:46:07.550
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00:46:07.600 --> 00:46:10.090
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00:46:10.790 --> 00:46:14.310
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00:46:14.660 --> 00:46:18.170
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00:46:18.180 --> 00:46:23.940
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00:46:30.915 --> 00:46:34.305
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00:46:40.715 --> 00:46:46.105
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00:46:50.215 --> 00:46:53.025
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00:46:53.295 --> 00:46:54.915
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00:46:55.035 --> 00:46:55.365
world.

00:46:55.625 --> 00:46:56.815
Join us for the adventure.

00:46:56.990 --> 00:46:56.991
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:46:56.990 --> 00:47:02.760
And we, and then we started taking him
out every day and teaching him in the

00:47:02.760 --> 00:47:06.480
woods, hanging things up on the trees,
like his schooling and everything.

00:47:06.480 --> 00:47:09.420
And I mean, just everything
started to change.

00:47:09.450 --> 00:47:14.400
I still actually have all the
notebooks for years probably.

00:47:14.790 --> 00:47:17.320
I have probably four
years worth of notebooks.

00:47:17.590 --> 00:47:21.160
I would track everything
he said at every session.

00:47:21.160 --> 00:47:24.010
And then if it was sessions where
I wasn't there, like the morning

00:47:24.010 --> 00:47:28.670
sessions I would have my, the, the
people working for me track it as well.

00:47:28.670 --> 00:47:33.410
So, I mean, I literally have the
hardcore data of the words he was saying.

00:47:33.830 --> 00:47:38.720
And it went from, you know, 25
words in an hour on the horse

00:47:38.780 --> 00:47:42.560
to 50 to 200 to, you know, 400.

00:47:42.800 --> 00:47:48.470
It was, it was just, it was a
clear, this was, this was it.

00:47:48.530 --> 00:47:50.780
This was making him become verbal.

00:47:51.560 --> 00:47:57.770
On top of that, I paid to have a
sand arena built at that, placed

00:47:57.770 --> 00:47:58.790
with that we were boarding.

00:47:59.210 --> 00:48:04.400
And I really think that that is
why he was able to walk on sand

00:48:04.500 --> 00:48:06.630
for the first time, like shortly.

00:48:07.320 --> 00:48:10.230
I think that was like
within a, that was the same.

00:48:11.310 --> 00:48:14.100
Yeah, that was just a few months
after he was riding Hanya.

00:48:14.190 --> 00:48:18.720
He could not, he loved the ocean,
but you could never go to the beach.

00:48:18.720 --> 00:48:21.000
You could never, it didn't
matter if he was standing on

00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:22.530
a towel, if he was on a chair.

00:48:22.770 --> 00:48:23.940
I mean, he would just flip out.

00:48:23.940 --> 00:48:25.800
You, you, your whole time would be ruined.

00:48:25.800 --> 00:48:28.020
There was no point in going, 'cause
you'd either have to stay in the ocean

00:48:28.020 --> 00:48:32.870
the entire time, or you, you would
just have to leave because you couldn't

00:48:32.870 --> 00:48:34.490
just sit there and relax on the beach.

00:48:34.670 --> 00:48:38.060
And it was one of my husband and
i's, you know, favorite things to do.

00:48:38.060 --> 00:48:39.680
That's what we would do on vacations.

00:48:39.980 --> 00:48:45.230
And we, we had to stop going again,
very isolating, you know, and very hard.

00:48:45.650 --> 00:48:51.430
But I really think the walking on Hanya,
trotting cantering in the arena on the

00:48:51.430 --> 00:48:56.470
sand is what, what changed it because
that she started riding her in May.

00:48:56.905 --> 00:49:00.775
And by September it was the twins
second birthday, and they still

00:49:00.775 --> 00:49:01.645
had never been to the beach.

00:49:01.645 --> 00:49:02.695
I'm like, screw it.

00:49:02.695 --> 00:49:03.835
We're going to Virginia Beach.

00:49:03.835 --> 00:49:05.575
We're like, you know,
45 minutes from there.

00:49:05.755 --> 00:49:08.665
They're gonna see the ocean for the
first time, even if it's a shit show.

00:49:08.785 --> 00:49:12.895
And he flips out, we're gonna be there for
like 15 minutes and they're gonna see it.

00:49:13.165 --> 00:49:17.995
And it was that time we were, we
were ready for just a complete awful

00:49:18.445 --> 00:49:20.455
whatever, but at least we had done it.

00:49:20.515 --> 00:49:24.715
And all of a sudden he just started
running on the sand, sitting and

00:49:24.715 --> 00:49:27.085
letting the sand like go up in
his bathing suit, letting the

00:49:27.085 --> 00:49:29.395
water, like it was unbelievable.

00:49:29.395 --> 00:49:31.375
I mean, I, I just couldn't believe it.

00:49:31.375 --> 00:49:34.195
Hurried up and grabbed my phone and
I'm doing my mom screaming again.

00:49:34.195 --> 00:49:38.005
And it was just like, did this really
just, is this happening right now?

00:49:38.005 --> 00:49:39.625
And then we were there
for like three hours.

00:49:39.630 --> 00:49:40.705
It, it was unreal.

00:49:41.045 --> 00:49:45.905
But so verbally, the meltdowns
started, started really going away.

00:49:46.335 --> 00:49:49.735
The academics were just
improving and improving.

00:49:50.235 --> 00:49:56.575
And then the, the eating so I, I had
doing, I did the feeding clinic from

00:49:57.205 --> 00:50:04.985
what, what would've been 25, 2000,
I'm trying 2016 to maybe about 2018.

00:50:04.985 --> 00:50:05.855
Mohani came in in.

00:50:08.345 --> 00:50:13.875
I stopped it shortly after Mohani came
because he's, he, I mean, it was unreal.

00:50:13.875 --> 00:50:17.235
He, his palate markedly changed.

00:50:17.375 --> 00:50:20.555
I was able to get so many
different things in him.

00:50:20.795 --> 00:50:23.535
I also started working
with Jonathan Tommy right.

00:50:23.635 --> 00:50:25.825
Rupert Isaacson: Just quickly for
listeners, Jonathan Tommy's a, a

00:50:25.825 --> 00:50:31.095
very, very skilled nutritionist and
also autism dad who we knew well in

00:50:31.095 --> 00:50:36.535
Austin, who had gotten some really
great improvements with many children,

00:50:36.595 --> 00:50:38.485
including his son who'd been nonverbal.

00:50:38.885 --> 00:50:42.925
So if, if, if you are wanting to
know more about his work Jonathan,

00:50:42.925 --> 00:50:45.045
Tommy, please do contact us.

00:50:45.045 --> 00:50:45.405
All right.

00:50:45.465 --> 00:50:47.955
So Megan, keep going.

00:50:47.955 --> 00:50:48.345
So,

00:50:49.035 --> 00:50:49.036
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:50:49.035 --> 00:50:49.365
okay.

00:50:49.365 --> 00:50:54.165
So he started eating so much more,
like the variety of things improved.

00:50:54.265 --> 00:50:58.655
He started to, I, I was
able to make these pizzas.

00:50:58.895 --> 00:51:02.675
Like it was a frozen pizza that
was gluten free, but then I could

00:51:02.675 --> 00:51:04.145
add like these different meats.

00:51:04.145 --> 00:51:06.155
I mean, I couldn't get
meat in him for years.

00:51:06.465 --> 00:51:09.765
I, I was able to add meat
to it and veggies to it, and

00:51:09.995 --> 00:51:10.985
I mean, I couldn't do that.

00:51:10.985 --> 00:51:14.285
I mean, he was so
malnourished for a long time.

00:51:14.285 --> 00:51:18.305
But just like every, all of
that, all like the whole picture.

00:51:19.325 --> 00:51:20.075
Started changing.

00:51:20.135 --> 00:51:23.705
I'm not saying that it
was still not difficult.

00:51:23.735 --> 00:51:29.195
Obviously a huge amount of effort on,
on my standpoint from, from many levels.

00:51:29.195 --> 00:51:34.415
But, and he, you know, there was still all
the things like behaviors and things we

00:51:34.415 --> 00:51:38.465
were doing, but I'm just saying like big
time stuff like academics, eating again,

00:51:39.155 --> 00:51:42.545
being able to go to the ocean and not
have to stay in the ocean the entire time.

00:51:42.755 --> 00:51:45.545
Like those were, those
were big things to us.

00:51:45.655 --> 00:51:47.455
And, and talking, talking,

00:51:48.325 --> 00:51:50.845
Rupert Isaacson: you know, when
I was joking early and saying

00:51:50.845 --> 00:51:51.805
much, you know, much good.

00:51:51.805 --> 00:51:52.195
It did.

00:51:52.255 --> 00:51:55.615
What I meant was not the
improvements that came with the

00:51:55.615 --> 00:51:57.625
horse, which were remarkable.

00:51:58.175 --> 00:52:00.875
But as you found out
horsey people are tricky.

00:52:01.375 --> 00:52:01.435
Yeah,

00:52:02.020 --> 00:52:02.021
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:52:02.020 --> 00:52:02.310
yeah.

00:52:02.335 --> 00:52:02.545
And

00:52:03.625 --> 00:52:06.685
Rupert Isaacson: finding the
right people is difficult.

00:52:07.105 --> 00:52:07.435
Yeah.

00:52:07.435 --> 00:52:12.145
You know, and that's very, if you're
coming not from a place of authority

00:52:12.145 --> 00:52:16.555
on horses and you're have to hire
people who know more than you do.

00:52:17.795 --> 00:52:17.796
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:52:17.795 --> 00:52:17.895
Right.

00:52:17.900 --> 00:52:18.090
Yeah.

00:52:18.090 --> 00:52:19.230
That was, that was rough.

00:52:19.650 --> 00:52:19.980
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:52:20.500 --> 00:52:22.330
But you weathered it.

00:52:22.830 --> 00:52:22.831
Yeah.

00:52:22.980 --> 00:52:23.610
And you weathered it.

00:52:23.610 --> 00:52:23.910
Amazing.

00:52:23.910 --> 00:52:27.300
And something else, listeners, is those
of you who know Horse Boy Method know

00:52:27.300 --> 00:52:32.850
that in order to get horses that are
strong enough to ride with a kid in

00:52:32.850 --> 00:52:34.920
order to get horses that can collect.

00:52:35.790 --> 00:52:41.010
To give that oxytocin effect, you've got
to put enormous amounts of muscle on them.

00:52:41.220 --> 00:52:44.460
So you need to know lunging,
you need to know in hand work.

00:52:44.490 --> 00:52:49.650
And so I diligently, as did others,

00:52:51.690 --> 00:53:00.210
sort of insisted that Meghan, in addition
to her full-time doctoring, mothering

00:53:00.210 --> 00:53:04.970
for other two children and all the rest
of it, learned to do these things which

00:53:04.970 --> 00:53:06.800
is sort of quite advanced horsemanship.

00:53:07.460 --> 00:53:10.580
And and you did, you, you, yes.

00:53:10.585 --> 00:53:16.310
You, you went and what was so in
interesting to me about about your,

00:53:16.580 --> 00:53:21.860
those early years with Hanya is I saw
you, I mean, okay, she was a school must

00:53:21.860 --> 00:53:30.350
horse, but I saw you able to take on
work that I often have trouble getting

00:53:30.350 --> 00:53:32.120
really seasoned horse people to do.

00:53:33.530 --> 00:53:37.360
And you just went for it and
followed it to the letter.

00:53:37.840 --> 00:53:42.640
And so even though I was uneasy
and I, I would then come back

00:53:42.640 --> 00:53:45.790
up on other visits and go, damn,
this horse looks really good.

00:53:45.790 --> 00:53:47.590
You're really, you're really doing it.

00:53:47.590 --> 00:53:52.120
And I'd watch you lunging her and
taking her through the in-hand patterns

00:53:52.120 --> 00:53:56.350
and the long reigning and being, you
know, Megan, this is, you know, this is

00:53:56.350 --> 00:53:57.970
like someone who's been around horses.

00:53:59.350 --> 00:54:02.290
Or that it was, it was almost like
you were downloading something.

00:54:03.220 --> 00:54:09.310
And then when I started teaching
you how to ride, like from the, from

00:54:09.310 --> 00:54:11.890
the first day, I was like, are you
sure you haven't done this before?

00:54:12.430 --> 00:54:12.940
You know, like, yeah,

00:54:13.690 --> 00:54:13.691
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:54:13.690 --> 00:54:13.810
no,

00:54:15.220 --> 00:54:17.050
Rupert Isaacson: it was, you
were, you, you were a natural.

00:54:17.050 --> 00:54:19.810
And I remember thinking, is there
something, is there some other

00:54:19.810 --> 00:54:21.070
force moving through Meghan?

00:54:21.670 --> 00:54:24.550
Because it shouldn't, I mean, you
remember I was saying, I was kinda like,

00:54:24.550 --> 00:54:25.600
it shouldn't be happening like this.

00:54:25.600 --> 00:54:27.010
It shouldn't be yet.

00:54:27.010 --> 00:54:27.400
It did.

00:54:28.210 --> 00:54:28.690
Okay.

00:54:28.780 --> 00:54:28.781
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:54:28.780 --> 00:54:29.080
Right.

00:54:29.650 --> 00:54:35.410
Rupert Isaacson: So you persevered and
you persevered then in a, in a live

00:54:35.650 --> 00:54:38.080
yard, but it in a boarding stable.

00:54:38.230 --> 00:54:41.560
What were the challenges of
doing this in that situation?

00:54:42.640 --> 00:54:42.641
Dr. Megan McGavern:

00:54:42.640 --> 00:54:44.410
Well, you know, again, personalities.

00:54:44.410 --> 00:54:48.430
Like you said, for example, when we
were first getting call on Hanya, like

00:54:48.550 --> 00:54:50.140
there, you know, you wouldn't wear ride.

00:54:50.200 --> 00:54:51.880
That was a joke to wear riding pants.

00:54:51.880 --> 00:54:54.640
But he actually wouldn't
even put the shorts on.

00:54:54.640 --> 00:54:55.780
So we're like, you know what?

00:54:56.080 --> 00:54:57.460
Just let him wear his underwear.

00:54:57.460 --> 00:55:00.910
I mean, he's only, what, what
would he have been in 2018?

00:55:00.970 --> 00:55:01.810
27?

00:55:01.810 --> 00:55:02.590
He was seven years old.

00:55:02.590 --> 00:55:04.360
I mean, how's it any
different than wearing like a.

00:55:05.170 --> 00:55:07.840
The European bathing suits,
whatever those are called.

00:55:07.990 --> 00:55:12.130
Or like a, or even like a, like when
you're competing in a swim competition,

00:55:12.130 --> 00:55:14.380
you would wear those, I mean,
what's Speedos the heck difference?

00:55:14.380 --> 00:55:14.890
He's seven.

00:55:14.890 --> 00:55:15.100
Yeah.

00:55:15.100 --> 00:55:15.640
Speedos.

00:55:16.140 --> 00:55:19.390
You know, but of course other
families that were there, you

00:55:19.390 --> 00:55:20.860
know, had something to say.

00:55:20.970 --> 00:55:25.310
The, the person that I initially
hired unfortunately was one, one

00:55:25.310 --> 00:55:27.860
of the one of the people that
you would not wanna work with.

00:55:27.980 --> 00:55:32.780
And it became a very, like,
manipulative, malignant situation.

00:55:32.780 --> 00:55:34.880
And I let her go.

00:55:35.870 --> 00:55:40.540
And then, you know, I, I've, I
found people and I have steadily

00:55:40.540 --> 00:55:41.650
continued to find people.

00:55:41.650 --> 00:55:45.610
But one of the things like I learned
prior to ever starting this was, you

00:55:45.610 --> 00:55:50.380
know, to be a good leader, you need to
know how all of the, all of the jobs

00:55:50.380 --> 00:55:53.230
that are underneath you, you need to
have, know how to be the secretary.

00:55:53.230 --> 00:55:55.360
You need to know how to be the phlebotomy.

00:55:55.360 --> 00:55:56.560
You need to know what they do.

00:55:56.560 --> 00:56:00.370
You need to know how to make it go
round in case they're not there.

00:56:00.700 --> 00:56:05.110
And, that was, that was something
like I learned early on with this.

00:56:05.110 --> 00:56:08.290
Like, you know, people can
leave at any point in time.

00:56:09.280 --> 00:56:13.030
And initially I didn't have contracts
for any, any of the employees.

00:56:13.150 --> 00:56:16.270
And then I got burned a few times
and I was like, you know, I sent,

00:56:16.360 --> 00:56:21.250
I sent one girl out to Bianca to
be, to be trained in Colorado.

00:56:21.250 --> 00:56:22.960
And she like had this like amazing time.

00:56:22.960 --> 00:56:26.410
And then like a month later
she decided, oh yeah, I mean

00:56:26.410 --> 00:56:27.820
I paid for airfare training.

00:56:27.820 --> 00:56:28.750
I mean, it was a joke.

00:56:28.750 --> 00:56:29.710
I mean, it was just a joke.

00:56:29.710 --> 00:56:31.120
I was like, are you, are
you kidding me right now?

00:56:31.120 --> 00:56:35.360
And that was when I finally changed
to having contracts because you

00:56:35.360 --> 00:56:41.240
know, again, people find boyfriends,
people move for reasons, parents

00:56:41.240 --> 00:56:43.850
become ill, you know, whatever,
everybody has life circumstances.

00:56:43.850 --> 00:56:48.620
But, you know, I still needed to make this
world go around every single day for Cole.

00:56:48.650 --> 00:56:53.120
And part of that was making sure the
horse was trained every day, you know,

00:56:53.120 --> 00:56:56.970
staying strong being well care, you
know, I, I had to learn all of that.

00:56:56.970 --> 00:57:01.140
Now, I might not know the 5 million
ways, you know, how to make a horse

00:57:01.140 --> 00:57:06.090
do X, Y, and Z, but I can absolutely
implement what you showed me.

00:57:06.150 --> 00:57:10.620
I can, you know, once I see it,
I've got it and I know this.

00:57:10.620 --> 00:57:16.110
And when I bring new horse people
on, I will say, Lee here knows

00:57:16.350 --> 00:57:17.371
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:57:17.610 --> 00:57:20.310
But I know that you need to be able
to make the horse look like this.

00:57:20.310 --> 00:57:24.420
And then I demonstrate for them
and I show them and, you know, so.

00:57:25.575 --> 00:57:30.825
Because again, even where I'm at now,
at this level, I'm still not like a, an

00:57:30.825 --> 00:57:32.715
equestrian for 40 years or something.

00:57:32.715 --> 00:57:37.455
I, I'm, I'm not, and I fully will own
that to any of the employees, you know.

00:57:38.025 --> 00:57:40.725
But again, I say, but I
know what this niche is.

00:57:40.785 --> 00:57:42.615
I might not know what those words are.

00:57:42.615 --> 00:57:47.055
When you're talking about the, all
the, I don't, I don't know a lot of

00:57:47.055 --> 00:57:50.895
like the other horse breed stuff or
I, I don't know that, but I know this

00:57:50.895 --> 00:57:56.085
niche and I know this niche well, and
the, at least the basics of what they

00:57:56.085 --> 00:57:59.865
need to do to maintain, to be strong
for the child, strong so they don't

00:57:59.865 --> 00:58:03.105
get injured and, and you know, that's.

00:58:03.765 --> 00:58:07.275
That's that I'm, I'm happy to take
opinions, I'm happy to, whatever,

00:58:07.275 --> 00:58:09.585
but at the end of the day, I'm
gonna take all of your opinions

00:58:09.585 --> 00:58:12.075
and then make an educated decision.

00:58:12.075 --> 00:58:17.565
Because it is hard, you know, the every
horse person, they all have, you know,

00:58:17.595 --> 00:58:21.735
the, the horse has some problem and you'll
have six different people, including

00:58:21.735 --> 00:58:23.355
the vet, tell you something different.

00:58:23.355 --> 00:58:25.545
And it's like, you know, you just
wanna stick a fork in your eye.

00:58:25.545 --> 00:58:29.715
Like, how can, how can you all think that
there's six different things going wrong?

00:58:29.715 --> 00:58:33.585
And you're adamant that, you know,
you know, I'm just like, alright.

00:58:33.645 --> 00:58:36.075
You know, and then you, you can't
get upset if, like, I don't go

00:58:36.075 --> 00:58:38.835
with your opinion, you know, I'm,
I'm doing the best that I can.

00:58:39.105 --> 00:58:43.125
And it's just, it is, it's a lot, it's
a lot of personalities to deal with

00:58:43.365 --> 00:58:47.025
finding the right people that, you know,
aren't gonna like, smack the shit outta

00:58:47.025 --> 00:58:51.715
your kid when they, you know, spit in
their face or you know, have a meltdown

00:58:51.715 --> 00:58:55.705
or, you know, or that aren't gossiping.

00:58:55.765 --> 00:59:00.505
You know, I, yeah, it, it
is that part that, you know,

00:59:00.505 --> 00:59:03.475
definitely that, that's a lot.

00:59:03.475 --> 00:59:08.065
But I am, I'm also in a, a different
space now than before because I, I

00:59:08.065 --> 00:59:11.365
know a lot more and I also know what
I'm willing to tolerate and what

00:59:11.365 --> 00:59:13.795
I'm not willing to tolerate before
I had to tolerate whatever the hell

00:59:13.795 --> 00:59:15.175
I could get, just to keep it going.

00:59:15.175 --> 00:59:21.445
Because again, we've gotta remember that
Cole is autistic and Cole is very much.

00:59:22.030 --> 00:59:22.960
Needs a routine.

00:59:23.320 --> 00:59:27.820
If he doesn't go to the horse that
day, like there's a, you know, or he

00:59:27.820 --> 00:59:30.910
doesn't go out to the barn or whatever
it, there's a melt, you know, there's a

00:59:30.910 --> 00:59:35.320
meltdown, there's, or there's a potential
meltdown or, and then especially early

00:59:35.320 --> 00:59:38.980
on, if there was ever like a day that was
potentially missed, I felt very panicky

00:59:38.980 --> 00:59:43.030
because I'm like, that's a day where,
you know, he could have started talking

00:59:43.030 --> 00:59:48.170
even more, or that was a day missed in
just making this early intervention,

00:59:48.230 --> 00:59:49.730
you know, like in the younger ages.

00:59:49.730 --> 00:59:55.010
So I was always just so, like we, I had,
I would do anything to make it keep going.

00:59:55.010 --> 00:59:58.280
I, I would do anything because I saw
what was happening and I'm like, like

00:59:58.280 --> 01:00:03.140
I can't, you know, whatever it takes,
basically whatever personalities I have

01:00:03.140 --> 01:00:08.360
to deal with, despite sometimes feeling
like I was going to just like, just, oh my

01:00:08.360 --> 01:00:10.070
gosh, how can I keep going on like this?

01:00:10.070 --> 01:00:14.930
I can't stand all this personality
stuff, but I, I still, you know, you just

01:00:14.930 --> 01:00:18.200
gotta regroup and move forward with it.

01:00:18.560 --> 01:00:19.745
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
most people are not easy.

01:00:20.180 --> 01:00:21.200
I wish it were otherwise.

01:00:21.280 --> 01:00:25.930
Luckily I would say that within the horse
boy community luckily, luckily, luckily

01:00:25.930 --> 01:00:28.270
we have phenomenal people like you.

01:00:28.790 --> 01:00:32.030
But yeah, the vast majority of
the horse world, it's it's pretty

01:00:32.030 --> 01:00:33.230
judgmental and pretty cutthroat.

01:00:33.450 --> 01:00:37.230
And so I was very worried, you know,
that you were going to enter that

01:00:37.230 --> 01:00:40.250
world with such a vulnerable kid.

01:00:40.280 --> 01:00:40.820
And I.

01:00:41.225 --> 01:00:42.305
Everything at stake.

01:00:42.905 --> 01:00:44.045
Yeah, you did.

01:00:44.075 --> 01:00:50.435
And okay, so you then weathered
those early years at the boarding

01:00:50.435 --> 01:00:54.485
barn, and then you decided to do
something a little bit radical.

01:00:54.905 --> 01:00:55.985
Talk us through that.

01:00:57.455 --> 01:00:57.456
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:00:57.455 --> 01:01:02.045
Well, I mean, truly those personalities
are probably what pushed me to be

01:01:02.045 --> 01:01:06.035
like, okay, I clearly know that
this is, I need to continue this.

01:01:06.035 --> 01:01:10.445
This is working, this is gonna
make my son as independent as

01:01:10.445 --> 01:01:12.275
possible and verbal as possible.

01:01:12.505 --> 01:01:14.935
But I can't, I can't stay
in this situation here.

01:01:14.965 --> 01:01:16.825
Like I would loathe going
out there every day.

01:01:16.825 --> 01:01:21.475
I'm like, it's already hard enough
to do and to deal with everything

01:01:21.475 --> 01:01:22.555
I have to deal with with him.

01:01:22.765 --> 01:01:27.295
I don't need to be able to, I don't need
to go there and feel like stressed out the

01:01:27.295 --> 01:01:30.295
whole time and wondering if something's
gonna happen with another person or

01:01:30.295 --> 01:01:33.835
they're gonna say something, you know,
I, I don't, I just don't need that.

01:01:33.835 --> 01:01:39.055
I mean, it, it, this is hard enough
and sad enough and everything enough.

01:01:39.925 --> 01:01:45.325
So I we started looking for
land and you know, we were told,

01:01:45.325 --> 01:01:47.155
oh, there's no land near here.

01:01:47.155 --> 01:01:50.665
You're gonna have to go to Glosser,
which is like 45 minutes away.

01:01:50.665 --> 01:01:53.980
It would just not be doable for
any standpoint from me being

01:01:53.980 --> 01:01:54.985
able to, I just wanna, I just

01:01:54.985 --> 01:01:56.875
Rupert Isaacson: wanna interject
there again for listeners where the,

01:01:56.875 --> 01:02:00.415
the bit of Virginia where Meghan
lives close to Virginia Beach.

01:02:00.415 --> 01:02:02.755
So not being able to go to the beach,
particularly in those humid hot

01:02:02.755 --> 01:02:04.795
summers must have been hell, but.

01:02:05.295 --> 01:02:10.425
It is tricky to find land there because
it's a bunch of small, little peninsulas

01:02:10.425 --> 01:02:14.955
that and swamp land that sort of jut
out into the Chesapeake Bay area.

01:02:14.955 --> 01:02:19.515
It's not the rolling horse country that
you think of when you think of Virginia.

01:02:20.025 --> 01:02:22.755
So land is actually not
that easy to come by.

01:02:22.785 --> 01:02:22.995
Okay.

01:02:22.995 --> 01:02:23.775
So off you go.

01:02:24.135 --> 01:02:24.136
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:02:24.135 --> 01:02:25.095
Right, right.

01:02:25.455 --> 01:02:29.475
So, you know, we just, as soon as
we started looking, everybody was

01:02:29.835 --> 01:02:35.085
again, being negative and I, and I
just, I kept looking and then all

01:02:35.085 --> 01:02:37.305
of a sudden it, it it happened.

01:02:37.405 --> 01:02:41.215
Bianca actually came one when she was out
one time, we looked at a couple problems.

01:02:41.215 --> 01:02:41.305
Beba,

01:02:42.355 --> 01:02:43.285
Rupert Isaacson: one of our mm-hmm.

01:02:43.525 --> 01:02:44.755
Best trainers and therapists.

01:02:44.755 --> 01:02:44.935
Yeah.

01:02:45.385 --> 01:02:45.595
Okay.

01:02:45.595 --> 01:02:45.745
Go.

01:02:45.745 --> 01:02:45.985
Yep.

01:02:46.465 --> 01:02:46.466
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:02:46.465 --> 01:02:49.015
And that didn't end up being the
place that we had found, but yeah,

01:02:49.015 --> 01:02:51.805
we've, we found a place that was
just like a blank canvas to create.

01:02:51.805 --> 01:02:54.925
There was nothing on it, and
it was like 17 and a half acres

01:02:55.015 --> 01:02:57.275
and lakes on either side of it.

01:02:57.275 --> 01:02:59.555
It was like, it's like a big
rectangle and then there's lakes

01:02:59.555 --> 01:03:01.855
on either side pretty well hidden.

01:03:01.915 --> 01:03:04.285
You can't see anything from
the main road or anything.

01:03:04.895 --> 01:03:10.265
And so we found it and then we,
we bought it in August of 19.

01:03:11.285 --> 01:03:15.365
And then, then there was the
transition of, you know, starting to

01:03:15.365 --> 01:03:19.635
build out there, which didn't happen
until like end of January of 2020.

01:03:19.815 --> 01:03:24.045
And they, they, we paid to
have a barn built, a covered

01:03:24.045 --> 01:03:27.655
arena and two, two paddocks.

01:03:28.420 --> 01:03:28.900
Built.

01:03:29.440 --> 01:03:30.820
And that was where we started.

01:03:31.150 --> 01:03:35.020
And that was a shit ton of
money, of course, but again,

01:03:35.020 --> 01:03:37.150
long-term vision in mind.

01:03:37.420 --> 01:03:44.620
And then, you know, we went I'd also
already been, had, had purchased Nron.

01:03:44.800 --> 01:03:49.000
You had gone and found Nron
and took him back to Germany.

01:03:49.210 --> 01:03:51.700
And so I'd already
started paying for Naron.

01:03:52.090 --> 01:03:55.940
And then with what you had going on, I
guess with new trails and some of the

01:03:55.940 --> 01:03:58.610
horses were being dispersed in places.

01:03:58.740 --> 01:04:00.180
You had talked to me about Diego.

01:04:00.480 --> 01:04:00.690
Yeah.

01:04:00.750 --> 01:04:05.730
And you had mentioned about like,
maybe, you know what I wanna, anyway,

01:04:05.730 --> 01:04:09.060
I decided, I know I still wanted
to keep Nron and I would, I would

01:04:09.060 --> 01:04:12.840
take Diego as well because we, we
couldn't have Hanya there by herself.

01:04:12.900 --> 01:04:13.260
Right.

01:04:13.260 --> 01:04:17.490
And thank God that, that, honestly,
thank God that happened because we

01:04:17.490 --> 01:04:20.790
transitioned there April of 20 and.

01:04:21.210 --> 01:04:24.240
Naron wasn't, I don't remember
when Naron came, but I think it

01:04:24.240 --> 01:04:26.400
was like May of 21 or June of 21.

01:04:26.400 --> 01:04:27.330
May of 21.

01:04:27.330 --> 01:04:31.230
So, I mean, what would we have even
done if we didn't have, you know, and

01:04:31.230 --> 01:04:36.450
I was not of any interest in boarding
any, I was getting away from public.

01:04:37.380 --> 01:04:39.870
There will never be a boarding
facility at this place.

01:04:39.870 --> 01:04:43.100
Never you know, I, I don't, I
don't want any parts of that.

01:04:43.100 --> 01:04:45.890
So that, that was not an option to
me because I didn't wanna have to

01:04:45.890 --> 01:04:47.090
deal with any other personalities.

01:04:47.090 --> 01:04:51.200
I just wanted to deal with the
stress I had for Cole, basically.

01:04:51.630 --> 01:04:55.200
So thank God that that happened because
then we were able to transition there.

01:04:55.200 --> 01:04:58.110
And then Mahan and Diego were
our horses there for a while.

01:04:59.520 --> 01:05:00.990
And then we started the nonprofit.

01:05:01.020 --> 01:05:07.990
So September of 20 we applied for
nonprofit 5 0 1 C3, and we got

01:05:07.990 --> 01:05:09.830
approved that was during Covid.

01:05:10.110 --> 01:05:11.070
So that was interesting.

01:05:11.370 --> 01:05:15.420
And then to get the 5 0 1 C3 status, you
know, you apply for that, but we didn't

01:05:15.420 --> 01:05:18.030
actually find out that for a year after.

01:05:18.030 --> 01:05:21.480
So technically, you know, as far
as getting grants and support,

01:05:21.540 --> 01:05:25.480
I couldn't even really start
doing that until September of 21.

01:05:25.630 --> 01:05:28.910
It literally took a whole year,
I guess, because of Covid and

01:05:28.940 --> 01:05:32.720
delays in manpower and stuff
that we found out after the fact.

01:05:32.960 --> 01:05:33.260
But,

01:05:34.790 --> 01:05:41.870
Rupert Isaacson: so then you suddenly
find yourself with two good horses,

01:05:42.440 --> 01:05:46.250
one on the way, an environment that
you can control out there in nature.

01:05:46.895 --> 01:05:52.835
Facilities put in and you can breathe
to some degree a sigh of relief.

01:05:54.335 --> 01:06:01.355
Why do you then create a nonprofit
and open this place up to the public?

01:06:03.125 --> 01:06:03.126
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:06:03.125 --> 01:06:06.485
Well, I think that

01:06:08.855 --> 01:06:16.685
being a physician, it was very frustrating
for me to go to the doctor again,

01:06:16.685 --> 01:06:18.155
no matter what specialist it was.

01:06:18.215 --> 01:06:19.805
And they had nothing else to tell me.

01:06:19.895 --> 01:06:23.825
You know, like there was no
other suggestions when what

01:06:23.855 --> 01:06:25.625
I was doing was not working.

01:06:25.955 --> 01:06:29.015
And I just felt like this is unacceptable.

01:06:29.045 --> 01:06:32.165
Like, there, there, there are
so many children diagnosed with

01:06:32.165 --> 01:06:35.585
autism now, like there, like you
ha you need to know, you need to do

01:06:35.585 --> 01:06:36.965
more continual medical education.

01:06:36.965 --> 01:06:39.965
There needs to be, you know,
you have to have more answers.

01:06:39.965 --> 01:06:44.475
And because I like didn't go to the
the group kind of stuff, you know,

01:06:44.475 --> 01:06:48.915
I was basically relying on my doctor
patient relationship to what are the

01:06:48.915 --> 01:06:51.075
other answers of what else can I do?

01:06:51.165 --> 01:06:55.125
And so there was always, you know, this.

01:06:56.310 --> 01:06:59.670
I mean, just being a physician,
wanting, wanting to help people.

01:06:59.790 --> 01:07:04.230
And I'm just like, my gosh, I can
like help all these other families

01:07:04.230 --> 01:07:06.090
that are in the same situation.

01:07:06.360 --> 01:07:08.700
And I mean, what, why wouldn't I?

01:07:09.240 --> 01:07:11.520
And well, for all the reasons you

01:07:11.520 --> 01:07:15.510
Rupert Isaacson: described for,
for the, for the, for the fact that

01:07:15.510 --> 01:07:19.645
you're a private person for the, the
fact that people can be Yeah, people

01:07:19.645 --> 01:07:21.540
can be, and you were so exhausted.

01:07:22.860 --> 01:07:22.861
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:07:22.860 --> 01:07:26.940
But I just, I remember the
hard I mean, I really was sad.

01:07:27.525 --> 01:07:31.500
I I really, it was a really
hard time for a number of years.

01:07:31.500 --> 01:07:35.430
I mean, it's like mourning, mourning
a death, you know, of what, what

01:07:35.430 --> 01:07:39.690
you thought your child was going
to be and to be able to offer hope.

01:07:40.080 --> 01:07:42.930
Like, I mean, as you said,
he is, he is a tough cookie.

01:07:42.930 --> 01:07:46.380
You weren't sure if you were ever
able to really gonna make an impact.

01:07:46.380 --> 01:07:52.110
Like, you know, he is one of the
more all along the spectrum children.

01:07:52.110 --> 01:07:56.670
And to be able to offer that
hope to these other families.

01:07:56.670 --> 01:08:00.180
I mean, it, I didn't really
think twice about it.

01:08:00.325 --> 01:08:01.710
I, I, I really didn't.

01:08:01.980 --> 01:08:06.210
And another thing that always
made me feel sad was holidays.

01:08:06.480 --> 01:08:09.830
And I know that's made might be a little
bit something different that we do

01:08:09.830 --> 01:08:13.040
at chats, but I really like holidays.

01:08:13.100 --> 01:08:17.810
Like I, I mean, as far as like, I,
I, well, I like celebrating holidays.

01:08:17.810 --> 01:08:19.100
I like decorating for holidays.

01:08:19.100 --> 01:08:20.390
I mean, I, I, I love it.

01:08:20.390 --> 01:08:21.680
My attic is full of.

01:08:22.640 --> 01:08:27.760
The only thing in it is like everything
for holidays and holidays were so sad.

01:08:27.820 --> 01:08:31.660
I mean, Christmas would come, you
know, he is 2, 3, 4, 5, even now.

01:08:31.660 --> 01:08:33.520
He doesn't even like to open presents.

01:08:33.520 --> 01:08:35.920
Like if you have a bunch of
presents in front of him, he might

01:08:35.920 --> 01:08:37.990
do one and then he is overwhelmed.

01:08:37.990 --> 01:08:41.890
But back when, you know, when you're like,
oh, trying to make these great memories

01:08:41.890 --> 01:08:45.910
and so excited to offer them this great
Christmas, I mean, it was just awful.

01:08:45.940 --> 01:08:47.200
He would just put his head down.

01:08:47.200 --> 01:08:47.950
He was so overwhelmed.

01:08:47.950 --> 01:08:49.870
He might even have a tantrum meltdown.

01:08:50.230 --> 01:08:51.550
It was just like, this is so sad.

01:08:51.550 --> 01:08:56.450
I mean, and going to see Santa and
standing in a line for 45 minutes in

01:08:56.450 --> 01:08:59.960
a mall where everything's loud and,
but you wanna get that Santa picture

01:09:00.290 --> 01:09:01.250
Rupert Isaacson: early, autism parents.

01:09:01.885 --> 01:09:02.375
It's like,

01:09:02.835 --> 01:09:02.836
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:09:02.835 --> 01:09:03.215
you know.

01:09:04.850 --> 01:09:05.060
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:09:05.300 --> 01:09:05.301
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:09:05.300 --> 01:09:05.750
Yeah.

01:09:05.750 --> 01:09:09.650
I mean, it was just, it was just
all those normal things I, I didn't

01:09:09.650 --> 01:09:13.640
really get to do with him and when
I tried them was just heartbreaking.

01:09:13.700 --> 01:09:16.070
And it was very stressful and sad.

01:09:16.070 --> 01:09:20.790
And so, one of the things that we do
most months of the year is our sensory

01:09:20.850 --> 01:09:22.530
holiday themed sensory Saturdays.

01:09:22.920 --> 01:09:24.210
So it's all out in nature.

01:09:24.550 --> 01:09:28.570
And we have the horses involved
on most of them, and we have

01:09:28.570 --> 01:09:30.880
stations set up throughout the land.

01:09:31.900 --> 01:09:34.240
And if they're not interested in
the station, they don't have to.

01:09:34.240 --> 01:09:38.500
But the stations are usually
highly sensory things that are

01:09:38.500 --> 01:09:40.360
desired by autistic children.

01:09:40.460 --> 01:09:41.390
And crafts.

01:09:41.390 --> 01:09:45.560
You know, we have higher level autistic
kids or teenagers that, or even

01:09:45.560 --> 01:09:49.520
young adults that come out and they,
they like to do some of the crafts.

01:09:49.520 --> 01:09:53.630
I mean, some Nicole doesn't like to do
crafts really at all, but some, some do.

01:09:54.080 --> 01:09:59.270
And we, we, we really, you know,
obviously for like Santa Claus, Easter

01:09:59.270 --> 01:10:01.280
Bunny, we have them out there Halloween.

01:10:01.280 --> 01:10:04.620
They get to if they want to dress
up, they, they can dress up.

01:10:04.680 --> 01:10:07.380
But it's, it's, you know, it's the
right environment for them to be

01:10:07.380 --> 01:10:11.910
able to celebrate a holiday and the
family gets to celebrate the holiday

01:10:11.910 --> 01:10:13.290
in the way that the child can.

01:10:13.290 --> 01:10:18.240
And for me, that, that is like, that
was one of my saddest, saddest times.

01:10:18.240 --> 01:10:21.955
Every time there was a big holiday,
like, you know, him just, it,

01:10:21.960 --> 01:10:24.240
it wasn't ever a, a nice memory.

01:10:24.630 --> 01:10:25.950
So I really liked that.

01:10:25.950 --> 01:10:27.480
I, I love that I offer that.

01:10:27.620 --> 01:10:30.680
Unfortunately today we had our
Valentine's Day sensory Saturday, and

01:10:31.370 --> 01:10:34.550
they said the weather was gonna be
pouring all day, so we canceled it.

01:10:34.640 --> 01:10:35.480
And then what happened?

01:10:35.570 --> 01:10:38.810
You know, it didn't, it's not
even started pouring yet, but you

01:10:38.810 --> 01:10:40.490
know, I, I, I really enjoy that.

01:10:40.490 --> 01:10:41.240
I offer that.

01:10:41.300 --> 01:10:45.620
And then, yeah, just being
able to offer the hope of your

01:10:45.620 --> 01:10:47.060
child being able to speak.

01:10:47.610 --> 01:10:52.080
I mean, what, what, I mean, I
would do, I would've done anything.

01:10:54.570 --> 01:10:54.780
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:10:56.700 --> 01:11:00.000
So yeah, you, you jumped ahead
a little bit in the story

01:11:00.000 --> 01:11:02.730
because you used a, a name.

01:11:03.405 --> 01:11:07.695
A few moments ago you said,
out here at chats we do this.

01:11:08.325 --> 01:11:13.695
At what point did you name
your nonprofit, your center,

01:11:13.905 --> 01:11:15.405
and why did you call it chats?

01:11:17.085 --> 01:11:17.086
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:11:17.085 --> 01:11:22.125
Well, actually, Cassie's mother Tracy,
she's real creative and we were trying

01:11:22.125 --> 01:11:25.485
to come up with a name for the nonprofit
when we put all the paperwork in.

01:11:26.025 --> 01:11:31.765
And chats stands for Kohl's
Horse Autism therapy station.

01:11:32.125 --> 01:11:34.915
And, you know, trains are
still super important to him.

01:11:34.915 --> 01:11:39.175
We have Thomas stuff like out all over
the land, and I wanted to incorporate

01:11:39.175 --> 01:11:43.975
trains in it, you know, and then chats,
because he first started chatting on the

01:11:43.975 --> 01:11:49.585
horse and, and then obviously putting
in horse in the name, not autism in the

01:11:49.585 --> 01:11:54.415
name, so that people would potentially
understand, you know, what we do there.

01:11:54.785 --> 01:11:57.505
So it is actually Tracy came up with that.

01:11:57.535 --> 01:12:01.595
We had like, lots of people trying
to brainstorm, but yeah, that was a

01:12:01.595 --> 01:12:03.575
great, I, I was like, yep, that's it.

01:12:03.575 --> 01:12:04.715
That sounds perfect.

01:12:07.025 --> 01:12:09.575
Rupert Isaacson: So now
here we are in 2025.

01:12:10.025 --> 01:12:13.805
You've mentioned one of the things
that you do is you offer these

01:12:13.805 --> 01:12:18.005
wonderful holiday events and
celebrations which in America there

01:12:18.005 --> 01:12:19.595
are many of them, so it's every.

01:12:19.880 --> 01:12:22.580
It's at least once a quarter, if not
once every six weeks you're doing.

01:12:23.030 --> 01:12:26.600
But talk us through your,
the, the program now at chats.

01:12:26.600 --> 01:12:27.260
What do you do?

01:12:27.260 --> 01:12:28.220
How do you do it?

01:12:28.370 --> 01:12:29.360
How do you organize it?

01:12:29.600 --> 01:12:33.350
How does it differ from the local
therapeutic riding things around you?

01:12:35.460 --> 01:12:35.461
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:12:35.460 --> 01:12:40.770
We offer play dates throughout the week,
Monday through Friday, and we have a

01:12:40.770 --> 01:12:44.310
lot of regulars that come, like, you
know, they come every Friday from 12

01:12:44.310 --> 01:12:47.040
to one or, you know, that kind of deal.

01:12:47.280 --> 01:12:50.340
But we're pretty steady
Monday through Friday.

01:12:50.340 --> 01:12:53.760
And then on Tuesday and Thursdays we
offer after school hours because of

01:12:53.760 --> 01:12:58.320
those are the two afternoons where
I'm not there with Cole at the barn.

01:12:58.850 --> 01:13:03.930
But, and then Cole has his play dates
with me in the afternoons and then in the

01:13:03.930 --> 01:13:06.420
mornings, oh, I, I didn't mention that.

01:13:06.420 --> 01:13:10.830
In the barn, we actually build a
classroom, so he has his classroom

01:13:10.830 --> 01:13:14.550
there and we, you know, we still
try to do stuff in the classroom

01:13:14.550 --> 01:13:16.530
and, and out, and there's a window.

01:13:16.530 --> 01:13:21.060
And of course, the horses are all,
you know, in the stalls, you know,

01:13:21.060 --> 01:13:24.960
in the mornings getting trained, you
know, getting ready to be trained or

01:13:24.960 --> 01:13:27.390
getting the Beamer blanket or whatever.

01:13:27.390 --> 01:13:31.300
So, yeah, so we offer
private and group play dates.

01:13:31.510 --> 01:13:36.570
We also do summer camps, which that was
like, like I think the two biggest things

01:13:36.570 --> 01:13:39.240
that like, I, I get super pumped about.

01:13:39.555 --> 01:13:44.535
Our camp and the holiday stuff,
just 'cause that's just what I like.

01:13:44.685 --> 01:13:48.625
But I, my fondest memories of
childhood were summer camp,

01:13:48.625 --> 01:13:50.215
church, camp, church, summer camp.

01:13:50.215 --> 01:13:53.925
But I did tons of cool things
like climbing, rock climbing

01:13:54.085 --> 01:13:55.615
Seneca Rocks in West Virginia.

01:13:55.615 --> 01:13:57.895
I did that a couple times
or you know, whatever.

01:13:57.895 --> 01:14:00.325
But, you know, you have great
memories from going to camp.

01:14:00.625 --> 01:14:04.255
And when, again, another
thing that I couldn't do with

01:14:04.255 --> 01:14:06.085
coal, there were no camps.

01:14:06.085 --> 01:14:08.365
You know, when I would go to
look at summer camps, there

01:14:08.365 --> 01:14:09.715
were no camps around here.

01:14:09.715 --> 01:14:14.055
So for me to be able to offer, you
know, horse boy camp here, I mean,

01:14:14.055 --> 01:14:16.125
I was just, I was all about it.

01:14:16.515 --> 01:14:21.345
And we're now going into our fifth
summer I think of, of offering camp.

01:14:21.345 --> 01:14:24.585
So it's a week long camp in June,
and then another one in July.

01:14:24.975 --> 01:14:28.215
And just this past summer, we
were able to extend our hours.

01:14:28.555 --> 01:14:31.765
So we're now nine to 12, which
was a big deal because it used

01:14:31.765 --> 01:14:35.695
to just be from, like, it used to
just be like an hour long camp.

01:14:35.855 --> 01:14:40.085
But now we offer three hours and we have
a lot of community support for that.

01:14:40.155 --> 01:14:43.065
But that's pretty much
what we do in a nutshell.

01:14:43.065 --> 01:14:45.495
Sensory Saturday, we also offer trainings.

01:14:45.555 --> 01:14:45.945
Right.

01:14:46.045 --> 01:14:49.675
You know, to schools, to
families, to, to caregivers.

01:14:49.725 --> 01:14:53.605
Any of that stuff will offer trainings
to the community and movement method

01:14:53.605 --> 01:14:55.855
and horse boy method Lee does that.

01:14:57.525 --> 01:15:00.855
But I think that's, that's pretty
much everything we do there.

01:15:01.785 --> 01:15:04.115
Rupert Isaacson: If you're in the
equine assisted field, or if you're

01:15:04.115 --> 01:15:08.545
considering a career in the equine
assisted field, you might want to consider

01:15:08.615 --> 01:15:12.885
taking one of our three neuroscience
backed equine assisted programs.

01:15:12.945 --> 01:15:18.525
Horseboy method, now established
for 20 years, is the original

01:15:19.120 --> 01:15:25.430
Equine assisted program specifically
designed for autism, mentored by and

01:15:25.430 --> 01:15:28.100
developed in conjunction with Dr.

01:15:28.100 --> 01:15:30.980
Temple Grandin and many
other neuroscientists.

01:15:31.320 --> 01:15:34.590
We work in the saddle
with younger children.

01:15:35.085 --> 01:15:40.035
Helping them create oxytocin in their
bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.

01:15:40.695 --> 01:15:42.135
It works incredibly well.

01:15:42.135 --> 01:15:43.855
It's now in about 40 countries.

01:15:44.565 --> 01:15:45.315
Check it out.

01:15:45.995 --> 01:15:50.145
If you're working without horses,
you might want to look at movement

01:15:50.155 --> 01:15:53.525
method, which gets a very, very
similar effect, but can also be

01:15:53.525 --> 01:15:55.275
applied in schools, in homes.

01:15:55.475 --> 01:16:00.465
If you're working with families, you can
give them really tangible exercises to do

01:16:00.465 --> 01:16:02.005
at home that will create neuroplasticity.

01:16:03.360 --> 01:16:04.640
when they're not with you.

01:16:05.150 --> 01:16:08.590
Finally, we have taquine
equine integration.

01:16:08.950 --> 01:16:11.570
If you know anything about our
programs, you know that we need a

01:16:11.570 --> 01:16:15.570
really high standard of horsemanship
in order to create the oxytocin

01:16:15.600 --> 01:16:19.890
in the body of the person that
we're working with, child or adult.

01:16:20.330 --> 01:16:23.670
So, this means we need to train
a horse in collection, but this

01:16:23.690 --> 01:16:27.930
also has a really beneficial
effect on the horse's well being.

01:16:28.130 --> 01:16:32.420
And it also ends your time conflict,
where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how

01:16:32.420 --> 01:16:35.720
am I going to condition my horses and
maintain them and give them what they

01:16:35.720 --> 01:16:38.815
need, as well as Serving my clients.

01:16:39.055 --> 01:16:43.555
Takine equine integration aimed
at a more adult client base

01:16:43.885 --> 01:16:45.535
absolutely gives you this.

01:16:45.595 --> 01:16:48.945
Well, I love the fact that you call
them play dates rather than therapy.

01:16:49.215 --> 01:16:51.405
I've never yet met a
kid that wanted therapy.

01:16:51.535 --> 01:16:54.265
I don't think there's a kid born
that comes out of the mother's

01:16:54.265 --> 01:16:56.425
womb saying, oh, you know, I'd
like to go for some therapy today.

01:16:56.425 --> 01:16:57.115
No kid wants that.

01:16:57.325 --> 01:16:58.075
Kids want to play.

01:16:58.475 --> 01:17:02.885
If, if we can make the play therapeutic
without them noticing, well, great.

01:17:03.265 --> 01:17:05.335
But yeah, we shouldn't
burden them with that.

01:17:05.335 --> 01:17:07.285
So I I I love that you, you do that.

01:17:07.525 --> 01:17:08.245
Talk to us.

01:17:08.755 --> 01:17:09.085
Okay.

01:17:09.175 --> 01:17:11.635
Talk to us about what
happens at a horse boy camp.

01:17:13.805 --> 01:17:13.806
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:17:13.805 --> 01:17:15.995
We have different themes.

01:17:16.175 --> 01:17:18.095
Like each day we'll have a theme.

01:17:18.095 --> 01:17:21.785
Like I plan it out ahead of
time and we'll, we'll typically,

01:17:21.785 --> 01:17:26.805
like, have play, water play we'll
have like a water play area.

01:17:26.805 --> 01:17:28.785
We'll have a sensory play area.

01:17:29.055 --> 01:17:30.495
We might have a themed.

01:17:30.995 --> 01:17:36.305
Like we do insects that day, or
we'll, or Scooby-Doo stuff, but it's

01:17:36.305 --> 01:17:38.255
all like fun, fun kind of stuff.

01:17:38.465 --> 01:17:41.295
And then we have like the the riding part.

01:17:41.475 --> 01:17:46.975
So we, we typically will have I have
six kids per camp, so again, it's not

01:17:46.975 --> 01:17:53.485
like I have 30 kids, but I need three
kids, three people per kid basically.

01:17:53.485 --> 01:17:55.495
So that's a lot of
volunteers to come up with.

01:17:55.945 --> 01:17:56.790
And they all get to go to

01:17:56.790 --> 01:17:57.190
Rupert Isaacson: camp too.

01:17:57.835 --> 01:17:57.836
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:17:57.835 --> 01:17:59.125
They, right, right.

01:17:59.245 --> 01:18:00.445
And, and it's great.

01:18:00.505 --> 01:18:01.045
Oh my gosh.

01:18:01.045 --> 01:18:05.355
We have, like last year we did youth
Volunteer Corps, which is a national

01:18:05.355 --> 01:18:07.245
group, and then they have local chapters.

01:18:07.515 --> 01:18:11.245
Our local chapter actually won the
national award for the best youth

01:18:11.245 --> 01:18:13.585
volunteer group, core group or whatever.

01:18:13.945 --> 01:18:16.555
And they partnered with
us in the June camp.

01:18:16.825 --> 01:18:18.445
So, I mean, it was phenomenal.

01:18:18.445 --> 01:18:24.025
We had a steady set of three like
teenagers per child the whole week.

01:18:24.025 --> 01:18:26.545
There was no changing, you know,
'cause normally, like, you know,

01:18:26.545 --> 01:18:28.435
I have volunteers that can come
Monday and Tuesday, but they

01:18:28.435 --> 01:18:29.365
can't come Wednesday and Thursday.

01:18:29.365 --> 01:18:33.685
And then you change the volunteer and then
the kid, you know, re resets potentially.

01:18:34.005 --> 01:18:36.625
So, it was, it was a
great experience for them.

01:18:36.715 --> 01:18:38.815
I mean, some of them were
crying at the end of it.

01:18:38.815 --> 01:18:41.725
Some of 'em were, you know,
just eyes opened because.

01:18:42.760 --> 01:18:49.000
And I think just less judgmental or less
likely to bully or any of that, you know,

01:18:49.050 --> 01:18:53.340
it's just a great experience, but we'll
sort of like divide the morning depending

01:18:53.340 --> 01:18:54.960
on if there's all six kids or not.

01:18:54.960 --> 01:18:59.760
But like the first part, half the kids
are on the horses also depends on many

01:18:59.760 --> 01:19:01.290
horses we have that are functioning.

01:19:01.290 --> 01:19:05.190
You know, if one of them's lame or
something, but say like the first hour,

01:19:05.460 --> 01:19:08.730
you know, three of the kids are on
horses and they're in the back of the

01:19:08.730 --> 01:19:11.910
land where we have the outdoor sensory
classroom and the sensory pond and the,

01:19:12.240 --> 01:19:13.710
all of this, you know, all that stuff.

01:19:13.710 --> 01:19:18.360
And the other three kids are up playing in
the sand in the arena or the water play.

01:19:18.360 --> 01:19:21.670
We have tons of different water play
things that we set up that are like

01:19:22.090 --> 01:19:26.710
rainbow sprinkler things or the slip
and slides or, you know, any of that.

01:19:26.760 --> 01:19:30.730
And then we have themed
activities when we're back there.

01:19:30.730 --> 01:19:31.630
So we might have.

01:19:32.215 --> 01:19:34.705
I'm just Scooby dos on my mind
right now for some reason.

01:19:35.455 --> 01:19:39.635
But I might have Scooby do stuff in
the trees and you know, whatever, and

01:19:39.635 --> 01:19:43.475
then they go and find it, or we have
a mailbox on site, you know, and on

01:19:43.475 --> 01:19:47.765
the last day they always get a letter
from the horse saying how much that

01:19:47.795 --> 01:19:50.315
Hanya loved to be with them this week.

01:19:50.315 --> 01:19:53.155
And do you wanna go play
red light, green light?

01:19:53.215 --> 01:19:54.895
And then, you know, we'll pull
out the red light, green light

01:19:54.895 --> 01:19:56.665
and have them race on the horse.

01:19:56.665 --> 01:19:58.795
But, you know, just activities like that.

01:19:58.855 --> 01:20:02.515
And then, and then when it's been
about an hour, then they come back

01:20:02.515 --> 01:20:06.775
up and then the kids switch and,
you know, we try to prevent any

01:20:06.775 --> 01:20:08.785
type of meltdown with the change.

01:20:08.785 --> 01:20:11.935
So we sort of maybe might entice
them with something else that

01:20:11.935 --> 01:20:13.165
we know that they really like.

01:20:13.165 --> 01:20:15.835
So in case they're like, not
too much wanting to get off

01:20:15.835 --> 01:20:17.575
the horse so that we prevent.

01:20:17.875 --> 01:20:22.315
But I mean, the, the, the kids have an
amazing time and I can't tell you how

01:20:22.315 --> 01:20:27.545
many like emails or text messages I've
gotten from the moms in particular.

01:20:27.545 --> 01:20:32.585
Like, thank you so much for giving
my child this opportunity to go

01:20:32.585 --> 01:20:34.985
to camp and to see him happy.

01:20:34.985 --> 01:20:38.945
And, you know, just all the, the
same things that I've, I felt when I

01:20:38.945 --> 01:20:44.405
was given the opportunities and saw
my kid, you know, be happy or say

01:20:44.405 --> 01:20:46.175
something or, you know, whatever.

01:20:46.175 --> 01:20:50.045
So, I know it's a good thing and I
know it's a needed thing for sure.

01:20:50.045 --> 01:20:51.065
Here in the area.

01:20:52.985 --> 01:20:54.215
Rupert Isaacson: Talk to us
about what's on your land.

01:20:54.215 --> 01:20:57.335
So you've mentioned you know, sensory
players and outdoor classroom.

01:20:57.365 --> 01:21:00.125
You've got, you've done over
the years, all sorts of cool

01:21:00.125 --> 01:21:01.325
things out in those woods.

01:21:01.925 --> 01:21:02.825
Talk us through the track.

01:21:03.035 --> 01:21:07.145
You know, so, so you, you have to
imagine listeners that when you arrive

01:21:07.145 --> 01:21:11.705
at chats, you're not just sort of going
into an in indoor arena and that's it.

01:21:12.065 --> 01:21:17.855
There, there is a cover but I would say
that occupies the least part of your land.

01:21:17.855 --> 01:21:22.905
And the least part of what the kids,
what's on offer for the, for the,

01:21:22.905 --> 01:21:25.515
for the people Take us on a tour,

01:21:27.585 --> 01:21:27.586
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:21:27.585 --> 01:21:27.855
right?

01:21:27.855 --> 01:21:31.755
So, yeah, the arena, we don't, I
mean, we're mostly out on the land.

01:21:32.105 --> 01:21:35.195
The kids like the arena most because
of the sand, you know, and to

01:21:35.195 --> 01:21:40.045
play in the sand for the ones that
like sand most don't in the arena.

01:21:40.325 --> 01:21:43.625
So we have swings all over.

01:21:43.670 --> 01:21:46.520
The property, all
different kinds of swings.

01:21:46.520 --> 01:21:48.770
We have a tree house that we built.

01:21:49.140 --> 01:21:52.800
We have an obstacle course that has
like a shake, shake bridge, and then

01:21:52.800 --> 01:21:57.450
it leads up into a tree that happened
to fallen over, but it still lives.

01:21:57.480 --> 01:21:58.920
And it's like this way.

01:21:59.130 --> 01:22:02.460
So the kid, the shake, shake, bridge,
then connects and you climb up the

01:22:02.460 --> 01:22:05.340
tree, and then we put a slide that
goes down from the tree and all

01:22:05.340 --> 01:22:06.180
these different types of swings.

01:22:06.180 --> 01:22:07.560
There's two different zip lines.

01:22:07.920 --> 01:22:12.970
Brian who worked for me for over three
years and was instrumental in Kohl's

01:22:13.660 --> 01:22:18.490
progress he loved to do this kind of
stuff, so he, he built most of this.

01:22:18.520 --> 01:22:22.910
He built like a tree house platform
kind of thing in the back of the

01:22:22.910 --> 01:22:24.560
woods near the sensory classroom.

01:22:25.220 --> 01:22:26.180
It's so cool.

01:22:26.330 --> 01:22:28.580
And there's a huge zip line
that comes off of that.

01:22:28.580 --> 01:22:31.730
And then you can also just sit up
there and just lay back and you're

01:22:31.730 --> 01:22:33.260
just looking up in the trees.

01:22:33.590 --> 01:22:38.400
We have a a beautiful swing that's up on
a, like the only high part on the land.

01:22:38.770 --> 01:22:43.660
And it's also just there's trees
around when you look up, it's just,

01:22:43.660 --> 01:22:48.250
you just, just seeing beautiful
branches and the, the big lake is right

01:22:48.250 --> 01:22:50.680
over there, so it's super peaceful.

01:22:51.250 --> 01:22:56.320
We have a circular compass
clock that Brian made.

01:22:56.660 --> 01:22:59.960
So they're basically just old
trees that fell down and then

01:22:59.960 --> 01:23:04.580
he made posts going in a circle,
and then he put like the numbers.

01:23:04.970 --> 01:23:05.900
To make a clock.

01:23:06.290 --> 01:23:08.900
And then he put north,
southeast, west signs on there.

01:23:09.470 --> 01:23:13.670
And then like, so we can go in that
circle with the horse and you know,

01:23:13.670 --> 01:23:17.720
teach them clockwise, counterclockwise,
oh, we're going west on the land.

01:23:18.020 --> 01:23:21.680
You know, Mathway Drive is
going back south on the land.

01:23:22.020 --> 01:23:25.260
All the trails we have named,
we have trail signs up.

01:23:25.620 --> 01:23:28.710
A lot of them are Thomas Island
of Soor, Thomas, the train,

01:23:28.860 --> 01:23:30.150
different types of names.

01:23:30.420 --> 01:23:32.940
Some of them are nature kind of names.

01:23:32.940 --> 01:23:34.620
We have bird houses all over.

01:23:35.080 --> 01:23:39.580
We have Leprechaun Way because I'm
Irish and I freaking like leprechauns.

01:23:39.580 --> 01:23:41.760
So we have leprechaun
houses which leads me to St.

01:23:41.760 --> 01:23:42.330
Patrick's Day.

01:23:42.330 --> 01:23:45.090
Better not freaking rain
because that's a big one.

01:23:45.090 --> 01:23:46.860
We, that's usually our most attended one.

01:23:46.860 --> 01:23:49.380
And I literally let them
do leprechaun hunts.

01:23:49.380 --> 01:23:53.340
Like I hide a leprechaun and a pot
of gold in a tree that has like a

01:23:53.340 --> 01:23:55.860
little opening and I buy from Amazon.

01:23:56.430 --> 01:23:57.030
They're real.

01:23:57.120 --> 01:23:58.080
Pretend that they're real.

01:23:58.260 --> 01:24:02.760
I buy footprints of leprechauns and
then the kids, we take 'em on a, the

01:24:02.760 --> 01:24:07.170
tractor, we pull them and then they go
off running and then they find the pot of

01:24:07.170 --> 01:24:10.410
gold and then they get a, like a goodie
bag with all kind of sensory stuff in it.

01:24:10.410 --> 01:24:12.090
But that's one of the funnest things.

01:24:12.090 --> 01:24:14.100
But I have those leprechaun
houses there all the way.

01:24:14.100 --> 01:24:17.610
And those kids freaking love, like
getting off the horse and opening

01:24:17.610 --> 01:24:20.310
up the little doors and wondering
if something's gonna come out.

01:24:20.850 --> 01:24:24.420
We have a ob, we have like
obstacle courses for the horses

01:24:24.420 --> 01:24:26.580
as well, back through the woods.

01:24:26.850 --> 01:24:32.020
We have a bridge that a Boy Scout
group built for us a couple years ago.

01:24:32.020 --> 01:24:34.570
They camped out and it was like
a project for them and they

01:24:34.570 --> 01:24:35.620
camped out over the weekend.

01:24:35.620 --> 01:24:37.420
And the bridge is really awesome.

01:24:37.880 --> 01:24:41.750
We have sensory walkways that the
Youth Frontier Corps built for us.

01:24:41.810 --> 01:24:47.210
We also have these sensory they're made
from like old roofing pallets and we have

01:24:47.210 --> 01:24:50.960
a whole trail of those where you can walk
the horse through the trail and they're

01:24:50.960 --> 01:24:54.980
on either side so the kid can like,
touch them while they're up on the horse

01:24:54.980 --> 01:24:59.690
and, you know, all different textures or
sounds you can bang or things like that.

01:25:01.690 --> 01:25:04.600
Told you about the mailbox, they
like to ride up that's also on

01:25:04.600 --> 01:25:07.210
a little hill and they can ride
up and get stuff out of there.

01:25:07.850 --> 01:25:12.380
That's, that's it's really, it's
really nature, natural, you know,

01:25:12.380 --> 01:25:17.150
I don't, over the years, like, you
know, I got a, a new shed kind of

01:25:17.150 --> 01:25:21.680
thing to put the tractor in and then
I got another shed to put the a TV in.

01:25:22.220 --> 01:25:25.790
And so there's a couple like
grayish colored sheds that are

01:25:25.790 --> 01:25:29.750
up near the front, but otherwise
there's like, it's all just natural.

01:25:30.650 --> 01:25:32.420
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, it's one of
the things I love most about it.

01:25:32.520 --> 01:25:36.690
When you go to your place, you, you, you
see the fields where the horses are out.

01:25:36.690 --> 01:25:38.250
And also for listeners I.

01:25:38.595 --> 01:25:42.945
Although there's a barn with stables
and stalls the horses live out and just

01:25:42.945 --> 01:25:47.895
sort of come in to be fed and to be
made ready for the arrival of the kids.

01:25:47.895 --> 01:25:52.725
But otherwise, they're having a
lovely time out in nice pastures.

01:25:53.325 --> 01:25:57.225
But what one sees of course is that,
you know, grass then rolling out

01:25:57.225 --> 01:26:00.375
to those woods and then you get in
those woods and it's like a magic

01:26:00.375 --> 01:26:01.905
kingdom that you've, you've built.

01:26:02.505 --> 01:26:07.455
And I, I do wish that one saw more
of that, you know, rather than

01:26:07.455 --> 01:26:08.955
like, this is the sensory trail.

01:26:08.955 --> 01:26:12.075
It's like no, no, the entire forest
is the sensory sensory trail.

01:26:12.075 --> 01:26:12.135
Yeah.

01:26:12.135 --> 01:26:12.225
Right.

01:26:12.855 --> 01:26:17.235
And you could, you could go in there
a hundred times and not exhaust it.

01:26:17.595 --> 01:26:22.315
You, you mentioned somebody called
Brian who built a lot of that stuff and

01:26:22.315 --> 01:26:26.185
I was lucky enough to, to meet Brian
and do and train him in some of the

01:26:26.185 --> 01:26:30.895
things, but where Brian, Brian was,
you know, rather an exceptional find.

01:26:31.075 --> 01:26:35.425
And I think it's worth talking about
him because when people are looking

01:26:35.425 --> 01:26:39.375
for help for their kids there are
specific qualities one's looking

01:26:39.375 --> 01:26:42.135
for and one doesn't always find
them, but then occasionally you do.

01:26:42.345 --> 01:26:45.405
So we talked about Cassie, for
example, who is still with Cole and

01:26:45.405 --> 01:26:49.165
who's incredible implements movement
method with him, but is also just,

01:26:49.195 --> 01:26:53.875
you know, such an emotional support
and you know, educator as well.

01:26:54.465 --> 01:26:57.165
So Brian, just talk to
us a bit about Brian.

01:26:58.140 --> 01:27:02.100
Who he, who he wa I know he's, he's
moved to North Carolina now, but who

01:27:02.100 --> 01:27:09.260
he was, what his skills were and how
that helped Cole, because I think

01:27:09.260 --> 01:27:12.170
there's insights there for parents
and, and people running programs.

01:27:12.980 --> 01:27:12.981
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:27:12.980 --> 01:27:16.930
So there's a lot of insight to be had
with this because Brian came to me

01:27:16.930 --> 01:27:20.440
right when Covid happened and none of
the kids were going back to school.

01:27:20.770 --> 01:27:25.990
And I had two or three, I had
two people working for me.

01:27:26.230 --> 01:27:29.560
One of them had been with Cole
for I think about three years.

01:27:29.920 --> 01:27:32.670
And the other one had only been
with Cole for about a year.

01:27:33.000 --> 01:27:37.680
And, you know, you always think that,
oh, well, you know, this person has

01:27:37.680 --> 01:27:41.310
a master's in special education,
or they have all this experience

01:27:41.310 --> 01:27:42.540
and all the, you know, all this.

01:27:42.540 --> 01:27:46.400
And I tell you, that was one of
the worst fits I ever had like fit

01:27:46.400 --> 01:27:50.960
between like an educator and coal
that I had the whole time I did it.

01:27:51.020 --> 01:27:55.010
And yet, you know, on paper you
think that's what you should do and

01:27:55.010 --> 01:27:56.630
you paid way more for that person.

01:27:56.630 --> 01:27:59.970
And I mean, it was
totally not the right fit.

01:28:00.000 --> 01:28:05.160
And then as, as it would go, as the
phases happen where, you know, you're

01:28:05.160 --> 01:28:08.430
steady and then all of a sudden
somebody leaves, you know, hi, here

01:28:08.430 --> 01:28:14.260
I am going into that school year and
these, these people stopped working one

01:28:14.260 --> 01:28:16.000
because they had to oversee their kid.

01:28:16.000 --> 01:28:19.930
You know, they're just so, I just
have to, okay, I fill in again

01:28:19.930 --> 01:28:22.660
and I, I do everything that I
can till I can find somebody.

01:28:23.320 --> 01:28:26.560
And then I put the, the job out on Indeed.

01:28:26.915 --> 01:28:31.175
And I don't know if Indeed is
in Europe or I think it might be

01:28:31.175 --> 01:28:33.275
though, but it's a very good job.

01:28:33.585 --> 01:28:35.145
Very good way to find people.

01:28:35.395 --> 01:28:39.715
I only found that a couple years ago,
but I struggled up until then to find

01:28:39.715 --> 01:28:43.315
good candidates, but I consistently
find good candidates from there.

01:28:43.315 --> 01:28:47.305
But Brian applied to Indeed, and
when I first spoke with Brian

01:28:47.305 --> 01:28:49.915
on the phone I could tell it
was just a little bit different.

01:28:49.915 --> 01:28:53.605
Like when I would talk, there'd be
a longer pause to wait to hear from

01:28:53.845 --> 01:28:55.225
what, like, what his answer was.

01:28:55.225 --> 01:28:59.495
Or sometimes the words would be drawn
out a little longer or, you know, it just

01:28:59.495 --> 01:29:02.975
wasn't like your normal, like, you know,
you and I going back and forth right now.

01:29:03.395 --> 01:29:05.945
And part of that could have been
just nerves on the phone and

01:29:05.945 --> 01:29:07.655
with him being autistic as well.

01:29:07.655 --> 01:29:10.145
I, you know, I don't really know, but
I definitely could tell something was

01:29:10.145 --> 01:29:11.495
different when we first interviewed.

01:29:12.095 --> 01:29:16.645
And then he came out and I was I
remember cry, you know, all these

01:29:16.645 --> 01:29:18.205
tears that I've shed over the years.

01:29:18.255 --> 01:29:23.375
I could make an ocean, but he he came out
like, and then I always have them come

01:29:23.375 --> 01:29:25.685
out and meet me with Cole out at the barn.

01:29:25.685 --> 01:29:25.955
And I.

01:29:26.360 --> 01:29:29.960
Cole was not having a good morning, and
Cole had a meltdown right in front of

01:29:29.960 --> 01:29:35.210
him, and he's, you know, doing his crying
and coming in and I'm like, oh my gosh.

01:29:35.240 --> 01:29:35.870
Oh my gosh.

01:29:35.870 --> 01:29:37.310
He's not, he's not gonna come back.

01:29:37.310 --> 01:29:37.790
He's not.

01:29:38.360 --> 01:29:40.730
This is, oh my gosh, I was so upset.

01:29:40.730 --> 01:29:43.340
And Lee was there, Lee happened
to be there, and I just looked

01:29:43.340 --> 01:29:44.090
at her and my eyes were rolling.

01:29:44.135 --> 01:29:45.995
I'm like, oh my God,
this isn't going good.

01:29:46.305 --> 01:29:47.075
He's gonna leave.

01:29:47.480 --> 01:29:51.680
And I mean, he was so unfazed by it.

01:29:51.680 --> 01:29:57.260
He was like, it was like, it,
like it didn't even affect him.

01:29:57.260 --> 01:29:59.810
Like it didn't, like,
he was like, whatever.

01:30:00.050 --> 01:30:02.720
I, meanwhile, like all, all of
our neurotypical cells are like,

01:30:02.720 --> 01:30:04.075
oh my God, I can't do this.

01:30:05.055 --> 01:30:06.740
And I mean, it didn't phase him at all.

01:30:06.740 --> 01:30:08.210
And he was like, oh, it's fine.

01:30:08.210 --> 01:30:09.230
Next time he'll be fine.

01:30:09.230 --> 01:30:11.450
And I was just like, oh, okay.

01:30:11.880 --> 01:30:14.040
And then, you know, he
totally still wanted the job.

01:30:14.040 --> 01:30:18.450
And then, you know, turns out he is on
the spectrum, very high functioning.

01:30:18.950 --> 01:30:20.750
He's a swim coach.

01:30:20.780 --> 01:30:26.080
He an equestrian, he like, was like
all the, all the bot he loves to teach.

01:30:26.260 --> 01:30:29.350
He like all the, all the
boxes you're looking for.

01:30:29.350 --> 01:30:31.000
It was, it was just unbelievable.

01:30:31.360 --> 01:30:36.850
And he became like Cole's just
person, I, I mean outside of Cassie.

01:30:36.880 --> 01:30:42.610
He, it, Brian was able to like
academically help him so much

01:30:42.610 --> 01:30:44.950
and just was never phased by.

01:30:45.370 --> 01:30:47.470
His behavior, you know?

01:30:47.570 --> 01:30:51.470
And I had just this different
understanding of his mind because, you

01:30:51.470 --> 01:30:57.680
know, he's on the spectrum too, you know,
stuff that we wouldn't, we, we couldn't

01:30:57.680 --> 01:31:04.230
understand or that I didn't understand
or, you know, it just, he was always it

01:31:04.235 --> 01:31:06.390
was all just this kind of calm with him.

01:31:06.510 --> 01:31:09.810
And when he and I would teach
together, I mean, it was easy.

01:31:09.810 --> 01:31:10.590
It was just so easy.

01:31:10.590 --> 01:31:11.880
We'd just go back and forth.

01:31:11.880 --> 01:31:14.940
And he got called to learn
how to ride independently.

01:31:14.995 --> 01:31:18.425
Hanya he, I mean, I, I
could just go on and on.

01:31:18.475 --> 01:31:22.505
He's the one that finally got Cole to
be able to ride his bike independently.

01:31:24.260 --> 01:31:25.375
I, I don't know.

01:31:25.555 --> 01:31:27.266
I mean, last summer.

01:31:27.895 --> 01:31:28.105
Summer, yeah.

01:31:28.105 --> 01:31:28.525
I remember being before he left,

01:31:29.455 --> 01:31:33.265
Rupert Isaacson: blown away
with you sending me pictures

01:31:33.265 --> 01:31:36.955
of Cole jumping, Diego jumping.

01:31:37.250 --> 01:31:37.251
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:31:37.250 --> 01:31:38.630
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:31:38.690 --> 01:31:38.950
You know,

01:31:39.055 --> 01:31:41.995
Rupert Isaacson: I remember you sending
me those and me just going, shit.

01:31:43.195 --> 01:31:44.065
That's right.

01:31:44.425 --> 01:31:47.545
Mind blowing academically.

01:31:48.205 --> 01:31:50.965
Where did he get Cole and
how did he get him there?

01:31:52.885 --> 01:31:52.886
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:31:52.885 --> 01:31:59.605
Oh, I mean, he, well, just doing the same,
you know, things that I was telling you.

01:31:59.705 --> 01:32:03.845
Cassie very much has been like, you
know, I'll, I'll review everything,

01:32:03.845 --> 01:32:06.905
come up with ideas, and then she
very much helps in with them.

01:32:06.905 --> 01:32:08.465
But she's the one laminating all these.

01:32:10.325 --> 01:32:10.685
Okay.

01:32:11.885 --> 01:32:16.145
So, she would make all the
laminated things with the Velcro

01:32:16.145 --> 01:32:18.335
and all kinds of other things too.

01:32:18.395 --> 01:32:22.775
But Brian would Brian was
able to really get him far.

01:32:22.870 --> 01:32:26.105
I don't, I don't even know like
how to say specific examples, but

01:32:26.505 --> 01:32:29.745
what I do know is he would send me
videos pretty much on a daily basis

01:32:29.745 --> 01:32:31.185
of what he was doing with Cole.

01:32:31.395 --> 01:32:35.785
He also got him very independent, got
him to be able to his feed himself, his

01:32:35.785 --> 01:32:38.935
peanut butter pretzels, which is like
his mid-morning snack, and then close

01:32:38.935 --> 01:32:40.735
up his stuff and put it back in his bag.

01:32:40.735 --> 01:32:44.665
And, you know, I, I was just always so
used to feeding him because he wouldn't

01:32:44.665 --> 01:32:47.275
eat or, you know, carrying all this
stuff because he wouldn't carry it.

01:32:47.275 --> 01:32:49.765
And Brian sort of was like,
you can carry this dude.

01:32:49.765 --> 01:32:52.915
You're like 12, you know, 10, 11, 12, 13.

01:32:52.945 --> 01:32:59.705
Like, you know, it's good to have a
outside person to look in and, and hey,

01:32:59.705 --> 01:33:03.335
well maybe we can pull back on that
now, because, you know, you get so used

01:33:03.335 --> 01:33:08.585
to being the caregiver mode that you
don't realize that sometimes you're

01:33:08.585 --> 01:33:12.305
making it worse instead of trying to
get it more independent by still doing

01:33:12.605 --> 01:33:15.365
something that you had to do before,
but maybe you don't have to now.

01:33:15.755 --> 01:33:18.935
So it was good to have like
that outside perspective of that

01:33:18.935 --> 01:33:20.435
was some of the stuff for Cole.

01:33:21.015 --> 01:33:22.485
But just on so many levels.

01:33:23.055 --> 01:33:27.075
Oh, Cole started to, I mean,
this has, this isn't necessarily.

01:33:27.870 --> 01:33:29.010
Movement method.

01:33:29.010 --> 01:33:32.830
But Cole started to love roller coasters.

01:33:32.920 --> 01:33:36.970
He wouldn't for a long time, like you'd
take him to the amusement park and

01:33:37.360 --> 01:33:39.400
the thing that pulls down over you.

01:33:39.520 --> 01:33:42.490
He wouldn't, it would just be too,
like, that would make him panicky,

01:33:42.490 --> 01:33:44.020
anxious that he couldn't get out.

01:33:44.290 --> 01:33:45.130
So he didn't do it.

01:33:45.190 --> 01:33:49.450
And then maybe like two years ago now
Brian happens to live rollercoaster.

01:33:49.450 --> 01:33:53.500
So now like coal rides, anything,
like any, anything that flips,

01:33:53.500 --> 01:33:58.090
turns goes upside down, like all
the crazy stuff, he's all about it.

01:33:58.620 --> 01:34:03.480
But it was, it was just nice to have
a person who, who enjoyed that stuff

01:34:03.480 --> 01:34:05.370
too, and like, loved to go too.

01:34:05.370 --> 01:34:09.360
And then I didn't have to vomit after
going off the ride, you know what I mean?

01:34:09.360 --> 01:34:10.230
Like, yeah.

01:34:10.235 --> 01:34:13.080
It was, it was just really nice
to, and he loved the ocean.

01:34:13.080 --> 01:34:17.220
So like literally this past summer,
every Tuesday we took co to the ocean

01:34:17.220 --> 01:34:20.640
so he could swim in the ocean and,
and Brian would go out with him.

01:34:20.640 --> 01:34:24.980
And, you know, we started taking
coal to the pool during the year,

01:34:25.010 --> 01:34:28.190
during the winter months because
our pool closes and then coal goes

01:34:28.190 --> 01:34:29.510
nuts without going in the water.

01:34:29.840 --> 01:34:34.610
So Brian, Brian took him
to the local Aex and.

01:34:35.255 --> 01:34:39.455
Got him independent and like
dressing himself, drying himself

01:34:39.455 --> 01:34:43.415
off, knocking on the door before he
went in to, to the changing room.

01:34:43.415 --> 01:34:45.035
I mean, I've never had
Cole knock on a door.

01:34:45.035 --> 01:34:48.035
You know, I'm just, I lead him on
my, every time I'm with Cole out

01:34:48.035 --> 01:34:51.125
in a public setting, I'm like, how
quickly can I get through this?

01:34:51.125 --> 01:34:52.175
Because what's he gonna do?

01:34:52.205 --> 01:34:52.445
You know?

01:34:52.475 --> 01:34:56.705
'cause he, you know, where Brian, you
know, in that setting, Brian has the time.

01:34:56.765 --> 01:34:59.795
He's got nothing but the, the
three and a half, four hours.

01:35:00.275 --> 01:35:02.375
Hey, we, we got, we got all the time.

01:35:02.380 --> 01:35:04.205
You know, I'm feeling like
doing, you know what I mean?

01:35:04.205 --> 01:35:09.455
Like, it's not like call I, I have
to hurry up and put clothes on call

01:35:09.455 --> 01:35:11.315
because we need to get somewhere.

01:35:11.315 --> 01:35:11.705
You know?

01:35:11.795 --> 01:35:13.055
We can, Brian can sit there.

01:35:13.085 --> 01:35:13.565
No, no.

01:35:13.565 --> 01:35:15.215
Put it, put it, put it there.

01:35:15.215 --> 01:35:15.725
You know.

01:35:17.255 --> 01:35:19.525
Anyway, it just just really helped a lot.

01:35:19.990 --> 01:35:20.230
Rupert Isaacson: I think.

01:35:20.245 --> 01:35:24.895
I think, I think that in so many, one of
the things which doesn't often occur is if

01:35:24.895 --> 01:35:32.215
one's running something around autism or
indeed around any neurodivergent thing is

01:35:32.215 --> 01:35:34.285
to look for staff that have the condition.

01:35:34.835 --> 01:35:37.775
You know, one might think, oh, well, would
they be resilient enough or would they

01:35:37.775 --> 01:35:42.665
be able to, and as you found with, with
Brian, the answer was a resounding yes.

01:35:42.695 --> 01:35:43.715
I, I would say that.

01:35:43.715 --> 01:35:44.075
Mm-hmm.

01:35:44.315 --> 01:35:47.975
You know, every time I would come out,
I would see a new academic milestone.

01:35:47.975 --> 01:35:50.255
I'd see a new life skill, you know?

01:35:50.255 --> 01:35:50.345
Right.

01:35:50.405 --> 01:35:54.995
And as you said, Brian was
sort of un unflappable.

01:35:55.495 --> 01:35:56.850
Also, you know, he's a big guy.

01:35:57.120 --> 01:35:57.410
Yeah.

01:35:57.535 --> 01:36:00.565
But he's also building you all this
stuff, like these tree houses and things.

01:36:00.745 --> 01:36:00.865
Right.

01:36:00.870 --> 01:36:05.335
So, you know, I think I would, I think
one of the morals of that story is, is

01:36:05.335 --> 01:36:09.805
to encourage people to maybe actively
look for people on the spectrum.

01:36:10.045 --> 01:36:11.425
Now obviously that can be a minefield.

01:36:11.665 --> 01:36:11.920
Yeah.

01:36:11.920 --> 01:36:21.775
You know, but certainly have that
as an asset in a team member because

01:36:22.075 --> 01:36:22.076
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:36:22.075 --> 01:36:22.435
Right.

01:36:22.795 --> 01:36:24.805
Rupert Isaacson: You know, ironically,
people are often saying, oh, they,

01:36:24.865 --> 01:36:26.335
you know, would they have the empathy?

01:36:26.335 --> 01:36:28.195
It seems that the answer would be yes.

01:36:28.645 --> 01:36:29.755
You know, from what we saw.

01:36:30.415 --> 01:36:33.565
You've also got someone else really good
on your team on the equestrian side.

01:36:33.565 --> 01:36:34.165
You've got Lee.

01:36:34.465 --> 01:36:37.315
Just talk to us a little bit about
Lee and then I'd like after that for

01:36:37.315 --> 01:36:38.815
you to tell us where Cole is at now.

01:36:40.375 --> 01:36:40.376
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:36:40.375 --> 01:36:40.735
Okay.

01:36:41.395 --> 01:36:43.795
Well, Lee has been sort
of my right hand woman.

01:36:43.795 --> 01:36:46.135
She has been nothing but supportive.

01:36:46.705 --> 01:36:48.235
She's a UVA grad.

01:36:48.235 --> 01:36:53.565
She was a career woman
and then decided to I.

01:36:53.880 --> 01:36:56.820
She really wanted to stay home
with her kids and, you know, just

01:36:56.820 --> 01:36:58.560
do some part, part-time work.

01:36:58.590 --> 01:37:02.150
And she reached out to me whenever
I was looking for an equestrian.

01:37:02.360 --> 01:37:06.860
And I mean, she's just
been really amazing.

01:37:06.860 --> 01:37:09.590
She's gone through all the
certifications with you.

01:37:09.620 --> 01:37:14.600
She's allowed us to be able to like,
you know, certify people here at chats.

01:37:15.130 --> 01:37:20.710
She helps train any new, you know,
equestrians that come on board and

01:37:20.800 --> 01:37:22.600
does the training in the communities.

01:37:24.100 --> 01:37:29.720
And I mean, she's just a down to
earth woman who, who really has a

01:37:29.720 --> 01:37:32.270
kind heart and loves to ride horses,

01:37:33.080 --> 01:37:33.290
Rupert Isaacson: right?

01:37:33.290 --> 01:37:35.180
And she's a really, really
skilled horse woman.

01:37:35.180 --> 01:37:38.330
And, and I think that, again, this is
something which is often so lacking.

01:37:38.840 --> 01:37:42.470
Not always, but it's not always
prioritized with Bitcoin assisted

01:37:42.470 --> 01:37:49.490
stuff, which is that, you know, people
who've really had a career in horses,

01:37:50.060 --> 01:37:52.730
you know, she's a hunter jumper, she
still works at a hunter jumper barn.

01:37:52.730 --> 01:37:59.540
She, it's not that you necessarily have
to be that, but it doesn't hurt, you know,

01:37:59.540 --> 01:38:07.730
to have people that really do understand
what it takes to keep horses sound to.

01:38:08.600 --> 01:38:12.560
Prepare horses to put muscle on horses,
to top plan horses, to make sure

01:38:12.560 --> 01:38:15.560
horses get the trail rides that they
need to make sure horses, if they like

01:38:15.560 --> 01:38:19.160
to jump, get those jumping sessions
to make sure that the, the, the,

01:38:19.580 --> 01:38:22.250
the horses at the best they can be.

01:38:23.480 --> 01:38:24.020
When that

01:38:24.110 --> 01:38:24.111
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:38:24.110 --> 01:38:24.320
right

01:38:24.860 --> 01:38:29.240
Rupert Isaacson: walks into the, into the
property, so much work goes into that.

01:38:29.400 --> 01:38:32.280
Rather than just saying, well, we'll
this horse is sort of quiet, we'll

01:38:32.280 --> 01:38:33.270
just pull 'em in from the field.

01:38:33.270 --> 01:38:33.930
And there we go.

01:38:34.290 --> 01:38:37.320
You know, every time I come out
to you, the horses look so good.

01:38:37.820 --> 01:38:40.910
The top lines are lovely and curvy.

01:38:40.910 --> 01:38:42.890
They've got big butts, big necks.

01:38:43.310 --> 01:38:47.600
They coats are glossy, they're fit, you
know, and they, they show up ready for

01:38:47.600 --> 01:38:50.960
action with enthusiasm and generosity.

01:38:50.960 --> 01:38:54.590
And I just wanna take my hat off to Lee
and again, I think, I think for people

01:38:54.590 --> 01:38:59.210
who are listening, the moral of the
story is do look for people who have a

01:38:59.210 --> 01:39:00.915
really solid, solid horse background.

01:39:01.310 --> 01:39:07.340
That said, obviously they can be
terribly bossy and opinionated

01:39:07.340 --> 01:39:08.360
and not always a good fit.

01:39:08.660 --> 01:39:11.030
But Lee seems to be able to, you
know, tread that line between

01:39:11.030 --> 01:39:14.240
just being a, you know, sound
human being and have those skills.

01:39:14.300 --> 01:39:18.020
So, you know, you, it was so interesting
to me that you sort of went from

01:39:18.680 --> 01:39:22.010
having to take any dysfunctional
person you could find who just knew

01:39:22.010 --> 01:39:25.460
something about horses, and then you
end up with this kind of dream team.

01:39:26.090 --> 01:39:29.900
Yeah, there's a lot for us to learn
in that, in that learning curve.

01:39:30.290 --> 01:39:32.720
Tell us, I think this is
what we all want to know now.

01:39:32.900 --> 01:39:34.100
Where's Colin at now?

01:39:35.910 --> 01:39:35.911
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:39:35.910 --> 01:39:43.350
Cole is gonna be 14 in May, and he
continues to progress with his academics.

01:39:43.410 --> 01:39:50.970
He can add, subtract, multiply which
was something I tried years to, to see.

01:39:51.090 --> 01:39:55.770
I tried so many different ways and then,
you know, it's like try a hundred times,

01:39:55.770 --> 01:40:00.570
but it's that a hundred first time that,
that that's how you wanted to learn it.

01:40:00.570 --> 01:40:03.630
And, and the a hundred other time,
other ways were not the right way.

01:40:03.630 --> 01:40:08.460
But then, you know, it's just a,
definitely a testament to keep

01:40:08.670 --> 01:40:11.820
reinventing how you might teach something.

01:40:11.950 --> 01:40:17.650
Obviously keeping the environment
right with being outside and movement,

01:40:17.680 --> 01:40:22.420
but you know, there it just might be
that a hundred first time that that

01:40:22.420 --> 01:40:24.070
makes it so they know how to do it.

01:40:24.070 --> 01:40:30.075
But we've been working on division
now for most of this school year and

01:40:30.105 --> 01:40:34.370
he's definitely it's definitely, you
know, I can see it clicking in his

01:40:34.370 --> 01:40:36.650
head when we do all the problems.

01:40:36.650 --> 01:40:38.960
You know, he also likes dry erasers.

01:40:39.030 --> 01:40:43.440
So like we, we have like a dry erase
division board, like where he can

01:40:43.440 --> 01:40:47.290
do the problem and, you know, it's
all about finding out what they

01:40:47.290 --> 01:40:53.320
like to use or what makes them stay
attentive and then individualizing

01:40:53.350 --> 01:40:54.790
that particular lesson to it.

01:40:54.790 --> 01:40:59.110
It's a lot of extra work, but
I mean, it made the difference.

01:40:59.710 --> 01:41:07.120
So, we're still working on reading and
we have some evidence that he can read.

01:41:07.120 --> 01:41:10.200
And then there's then other ways
though, when we're teaching it,

01:41:10.260 --> 01:41:11.970
it's like it doesn't connect.

01:41:11.970 --> 01:41:15.810
And I think that's just because we don't
really understand how it's connecting

01:41:15.810 --> 01:41:17.790
in his brain or how he's processing it.

01:41:18.340 --> 01:41:21.850
I did have a dyslexia
evaluation for the first time.

01:41:21.850 --> 01:41:25.090
I could have never even done that
in years past because he wouldn't

01:41:25.090 --> 01:41:30.130
have been verbal to, you know,
verbal enough to do it or anything.

01:41:30.130 --> 01:41:32.470
I literally just had that like,
less than two weeks ago, they

01:41:32.470 --> 01:41:33.580
came to the house and did it.

01:41:34.060 --> 01:41:36.820
And while they couldn't fully score
it because he couldn't answer all

01:41:36.820 --> 01:41:40.600
of it I was really proud of him for,
you know, the parts that he, that

01:41:40.600 --> 01:41:43.030
he could do and respond back to.

01:41:43.520 --> 01:41:48.290
From a food standpoint, the, the
boy is like almost five 10 now.

01:41:48.290 --> 01:41:52.580
Size 13 shoe, 215 pounds, I'd say.

01:41:53.010 --> 01:41:53.790
He's a beast.

01:41:53.820 --> 01:41:56.580
He's, he's solid muscle.

01:41:56.580 --> 01:42:01.260
I mean, he is on the horse like five
days a week, most of them twice a day.

01:42:01.260 --> 01:42:04.590
I mean, he's pretty solid from a
muscle standpoint, and he loves

01:42:04.590 --> 01:42:08.980
to jump on the trampoline always
and swims throughout the year.

01:42:08.980 --> 01:42:11.980
So physically, he's
pretty, pretty big boy.

01:42:12.550 --> 01:42:16.300
Behaviorally we've had some new things
just because he is going through puberty.

01:42:16.300 --> 01:42:18.160
So that's, that's just fun.

01:42:18.250 --> 01:42:19.390
We can leave that at that.

01:42:20.080 --> 01:42:22.120
And you know, there's still
always challenges with him.

01:42:22.120 --> 01:42:25.660
I mean, I, I can't say too,
anything's different about, like,

01:42:25.660 --> 01:42:28.780
the fact that I can't take Cole over
to my friend's house for a party.

01:42:28.930 --> 01:42:30.850
I don't, I don't know that
that's ever going to change.

01:42:30.850 --> 01:42:33.340
You know, he doesn't, if I try
to go into Target real quick

01:42:33.340 --> 01:42:34.720
for something, God help me.

01:42:35.140 --> 01:42:36.910
Like he, he'll just start.

01:42:37.720 --> 01:42:41.650
He doesn't get, he, he does stuff to
make you upset so that you will get

01:42:41.650 --> 01:42:42.880
out of there as quickly as possible.

01:42:42.880 --> 01:42:47.350
He knows exactly what he's doing, but
you know, he, he'll, he'll start, he'll

01:42:47.350 --> 01:42:51.010
start laughing so loud, and then he'll
scream at the end of the laugh, and

01:42:51.010 --> 01:42:52.630
then he'll start jumping up and down.

01:42:52.840 --> 01:42:56.530
Or he'll, he'll drop down to the
ground and he'll laugh, giggle, giggle.

01:42:56.530 --> 01:42:59.560
I mean, everybody, like the whole store
thinks that there's like someone coming

01:42:59.800 --> 01:43:03.610
out with a gun and is gonna kill them
or something because Cole's so loud, you

01:43:03.610 --> 01:43:04.840
know, and everybody's looking at you.

01:43:05.110 --> 01:43:05.710
I mean.

01:43:06.910 --> 01:43:11.170
You know, so it's not like the crying
meltdowns anymore, like of years past.

01:43:11.170 --> 01:43:12.795
It's the, that sounds
more, I'm gonna embarra

01:43:13.000 --> 01:43:13.540
Rupert Isaacson: That sounds more

01:43:14.710 --> 01:43:14.711
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:43:14.710 --> 01:43:14.950
Yeah.

01:43:14.950 --> 01:43:17.380
I'm gonna embarrass the shit
outta until you get me outta here.

01:43:18.070 --> 01:43:18.880
Rupert Isaacson: That's like, I don't Oh,

01:43:19.030 --> 01:43:19.031
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:43:19.030 --> 01:43:19.630
totally.

01:43:19.705 --> 01:43:20.590
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, totally,

01:43:21.040 --> 01:43:21.041
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:43:21.040 --> 01:43:21.700
totally.

01:43:21.750 --> 01:43:23.400
Rupert Isaacson:
Intelligent and thought out.

01:43:23.405 --> 01:43:23.525
Right.

01:43:23.675 --> 01:43:24.645
Well, executed well.

01:43:24.660 --> 01:43:25.410
Like well played.

01:43:26.190 --> 01:43:26.191
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:43:26.190 --> 01:43:27.300
Very well played.

01:43:27.300 --> 01:43:27.630
Yep.

01:43:27.720 --> 01:43:29.100
So he does that a lot.

01:43:29.100 --> 01:43:30.900
He's, he's very he's a funny boy.

01:43:30.900 --> 01:43:34.560
He, we've really seen his
funny personality come out.

01:43:34.560 --> 01:43:35.730
He is a real jokester.

01:43:35.800 --> 01:43:36.400
He really is.

01:43:36.400 --> 01:43:37.240
He's, he's funny.

01:43:37.450 --> 01:43:43.180
And as far as like talking, oh my
gosh, he, he talks so much now.

01:43:43.210 --> 01:43:47.770
It's still not like if I demand a
conversation like, Cole, how was your day?

01:43:47.950 --> 01:43:48.850
That doesn't happen.

01:43:49.150 --> 01:43:53.140
But he will speak in full sentences
about how he feels or something that

01:43:53.140 --> 01:43:55.300
he's thinking about or what he saw.

01:43:55.610 --> 01:43:58.520
I mean, that was like, that
was a, that was a, a dream I

01:43:58.520 --> 01:44:00.260
was chasing for, for years.

01:44:00.620 --> 01:44:05.270
And I have every like, belief
that this will just continue.

01:44:05.300 --> 01:44:07.580
I mean, every year he's
shown more and more progress.

01:44:07.580 --> 01:44:10.340
There's no reason why that
wouldn't continue to happen.

01:44:10.340 --> 01:44:15.560
I, I just, you know, I still, I still
have the hopes of many things for him

01:44:15.560 --> 01:44:19.910
and I am just gonna keep doing what I'm
doing and, and try to see if there's

01:44:19.910 --> 01:44:24.530
anything else, you know, that comes
out that I need to add or whatever.

01:44:24.530 --> 01:44:27.880
But I mean, I would say we are
like in a night and day picture

01:44:27.880 --> 01:44:32.755
from when you first met him and I.

01:44:33.235 --> 01:44:34.645
I, again, it's still

01:44:34.885 --> 01:44:37.045
Rupert Isaacson: when you say, I'm
not trying, talk about what he thinks

01:44:37.135 --> 01:44:40.315
and he tells you about what he thinks
gi give us some examples of, of that.

01:44:40.345 --> 01:44:41.605
What are some things that he said?

01:44:42.395 --> 01:44:42.396
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:44:42.395 --> 01:44:47.255
You know, when you're, when you're
driving and say you hit a pothole or, or

01:44:47.255 --> 01:44:54.135
something and be like, oh my, or he'll
say, you bumped, or I was putting on.

01:44:54.450 --> 01:44:56.040
This was like unbelievable.

01:44:56.040 --> 01:44:59.310
I, and this is why I still need to get
one of those cameras that's put on your

01:44:59.310 --> 01:45:01.290
head or something that watches everything.

01:45:01.750 --> 01:45:04.180
This was like around
Halloween the year before.

01:45:04.450 --> 01:45:06.860
And I love like Charlie
Brown's peanut stuff.

01:45:06.860 --> 01:45:11.030
So we all dressed up as Peanuts characters
and he was Charlie Brown and I had

01:45:11.030 --> 01:45:14.750
these cool Charlie Brown, it was like
the actual face of Charlie Brown socks

01:45:14.900 --> 01:45:16.130
that he wore as part of the outfit.

01:45:16.130 --> 01:45:18.680
And then afterwards I would
put them on him at bedtime.

01:45:18.710 --> 01:45:20.000
'cause you know, it was getting cold out.

01:45:20.120 --> 01:45:23.600
And one night we were going to
bed, we were not speaking, we

01:45:23.600 --> 01:45:24.590
were just, we were both tired.

01:45:24.590 --> 01:45:28.400
He was getting in bed and I normally put
the socks on 'cause they were too tight,

01:45:28.460 --> 01:45:30.470
but he acted like he wanted put 'em on.

01:45:30.470 --> 01:45:31.610
So I was like, oh, okay here.

01:45:31.850 --> 01:45:33.655
And he started to put 'em on
and he couldn't get 'em on

01:45:34.055 --> 01:45:34.695
'cause they were so tight.

01:45:34.835 --> 01:45:36.895
And then I was like, here,
okay, you want me to help you?

01:45:36.895 --> 01:45:39.170
And I started putting 'em
on and he goes, good grief.

01:45:39.680 --> 01:45:44.055
Like, like, I mean Charlie Grief.

01:45:44.255 --> 01:45:45.830
I was like, you gotta be fucking kidding.

01:45:45.830 --> 01:45:49.220
Did you just think, did you, you
know, and then I get my mom screeching

01:45:49.250 --> 01:45:53.860
voice again and and now I have, I
record him regularly saying Charlie

01:45:53.860 --> 01:45:55.510
Brown kind of stuff or whatever.

01:45:55.620 --> 01:46:01.270
But I mean, he'll, he'll say he'll tell
the boys to quiet down you know, his

01:46:01.270 --> 01:46:05.530
twin brothers or he, I mean, he'll,
he'll, he'll just point out things.

01:46:05.590 --> 01:46:08.860
Oh, he, Ashton was practicing
a speech that he has for this

01:46:08.910 --> 01:46:10.290
black History Month project.

01:46:10.890 --> 01:46:14.760
And he came over to Ashton
afterwards and he said, good job.

01:46:15.240 --> 01:46:17.365
Like what, what?

01:46:18.780 --> 01:46:19.140
Isn't that?

01:46:19.620 --> 01:46:20.280
I don't know.

01:46:20.590 --> 01:46:24.460
He'll say, I love you to me, you know,
at bedtime, he'll tell me sweet dreams.

01:46:24.460 --> 01:46:26.350
I mean, it's just shit like,
that would just never happen.

01:46:26.350 --> 01:46:27.820
There would just be no talk.

01:46:28.240 --> 01:46:31.150
He tells you like that he wants
to go in the woods if he doesn't

01:46:31.150 --> 01:46:32.800
wanna keep, you know, lunging.

01:46:33.520 --> 01:46:36.490
I mean, these are just small examples,
but there's, there's bigger examples that

01:46:36.490 --> 01:46:37.960
are just not coming to my head right now.

01:46:37.960 --> 01:46:41.320
But he absolutely, he'll tell
you, he'll answer me now when

01:46:41.320 --> 01:46:43.450
I say, do you want yogurt?

01:46:43.600 --> 01:46:48.280
You know, before it was just, he would
never answer no matter what or, and, and

01:46:48.280 --> 01:46:53.050
he'll say yes or no now, or he'll tell
you what he wants ahead of time or, I

01:46:53.080 --> 01:46:54.970
mean, it was just, that was never before.

01:46:54.970 --> 01:46:57.790
You always just had to, had
to figure it out, wing it,

01:46:58.000 --> 01:47:00.130
WW figure out what was wrong.

01:47:00.160 --> 01:47:03.340
But you know, I mean, sometimes I
still have to figure out what is wrong

01:47:03.340 --> 01:47:07.960
if he, but, but most of the time he
tells me now, like, I mean like if

01:47:07.960 --> 01:47:14.220
he got hurt or if his stomach hurts,
you know, and he can take a shower.

01:47:14.250 --> 01:47:16.230
He can do a shower all on his own now.

01:47:16.235 --> 01:47:19.470
I mean, I took a shower with him for,
for years, actually all the way up

01:47:19.470 --> 01:47:20.940
till probably like six months ago.

01:47:21.090 --> 01:47:24.660
I mean, he, he, you know, he's not
paying attention to what I look like.

01:47:24.660 --> 01:47:28.560
He isn't, you know, I was just in there
assisting him and now he can he'll

01:47:28.560 --> 01:47:30.810
shampoo conditioner, he washes his face.

01:47:30.840 --> 01:47:32.790
'cause you know, now he is
of the age of getting acne.

01:47:33.070 --> 01:47:34.750
He does his whole body with a soap.

01:47:35.030 --> 01:47:37.130
He, you know, he, he
has the whole routine.

01:47:37.310 --> 01:47:37.640
He.

01:47:38.660 --> 01:47:42.200
He's styling, he's learning how to
style his hair now with the Goop stuff.

01:47:42.230 --> 01:47:49.160
Like really, you know, he's, he is
learning a lot of independent life skills.

01:47:49.610 --> 01:47:49.850
Yeah.

01:47:49.950 --> 01:47:53.700
He's, he feeds himself the yogurt
now, like even all the way up till

01:47:53.700 --> 01:47:56.520
like four months ago, I would still
have to feed him yogurt every time.

01:47:56.520 --> 01:48:00.420
But he would let Brian, Brian, he
would, he feed himself yogurt with

01:48:00.420 --> 01:48:04.020
Brian, but with me, he, it was just
still this like you fat guy game.

01:48:04.770 --> 01:48:05.190
Yeah.

01:48:05.670 --> 01:48:08.730
And finally, you know, what got
him to count was, or to eat, it

01:48:08.730 --> 01:48:13.030
was we started counting, you know,
he likes to count and so he took,

01:48:13.150 --> 01:48:14.560
I was like, oh, count how many.

01:48:14.560 --> 01:48:15.460
1, 2, 3.

01:48:15.460 --> 01:48:20.050
And then, and then now we, we do it
like that and he takes 'em and he starts

01:48:20.050 --> 01:48:21.430
counting and then I know he has a yogurt.

01:48:21.430 --> 01:48:21.790
I'm like, oh.

01:48:21.790 --> 01:48:25.570
And then I keep counting and sometimes
I'll go really fast so I can see him, see,

01:48:25.570 --> 01:48:30.790
hear him say the higher numbers, because
you know, he knows all that stuff, but.

01:48:31.435 --> 01:48:34.645
After you've asked him so many times,
he doesn't want to tell you anymore.

01:48:34.735 --> 01:48:38.605
And then when I have new people that can
get involved, then they think he doesn't

01:48:38.605 --> 01:48:40.885
know stuff because he won't answer them.

01:48:40.885 --> 01:48:44.635
But it's because he answered it 5,000
times before and it's just, he's done.

01:48:44.635 --> 01:48:44.695
Yeah.

01:48:45.055 --> 01:48:47.845
And so that's a, that's a frustrating
part still, especially when I have

01:48:47.845 --> 01:48:52.405
staff turnover because, you know, if he
doesn't answer it a certain way, then

01:48:52.405 --> 01:48:53.725
you, then you think he doesn't know it.

01:48:53.725 --> 01:48:56.635
And that's just, that's just
not the case at all, you know.

01:48:56.975 --> 01:48:58.175
So I'll like go higher numbers.

01:48:58.175 --> 01:49:01.325
I'll, I'll go real fast and I'll go to
like 25 and then, then I get to hear him

01:49:01.325 --> 01:49:04.565
say 26, which I otherwise would probably
never get to hear him say, you know?

01:49:06.005 --> 01:49:08.165
Rupert Isaacson: So how
is he with his brothers?

01:49:09.155 --> 01:49:09.156
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:49:09.155 --> 01:49:11.375
He is, he's very good with his brothers.

01:49:11.375 --> 01:49:16.385
You know, he'll, he'll really rough
house with, with me or, or we, like,

01:49:16.385 --> 01:49:19.985
he'll come up and especially now that,
you know, teenage puberty kind of stuff,

01:49:19.985 --> 01:49:23.585
he'll come over and he'll just like
shove me in the back and, and, or he'll

01:49:23.585 --> 01:49:29.285
come over and pinch and, you know, when
he wants to, to make you play with him.

01:49:29.285 --> 01:49:31.715
And he, I mean, he really likes to
rough house, you know, like push

01:49:31.715 --> 01:49:34.745
back and forth and, you know, pretend
like you're, you know, whatever.

01:49:35.105 --> 01:49:39.075
And but with his brothers he doesn't,
he doesn't do that with them at all.

01:49:39.075 --> 01:49:42.435
They, I mean, he knows like, they're
just, they're smaller, but they, he

01:49:42.435 --> 01:49:45.855
doesn, you know, they do really well
together in the pool so they can really

01:49:45.855 --> 01:49:47.925
relate as like brothers in the pool.

01:49:48.295 --> 01:49:49.825
And then just on the trampoline.

01:49:50.365 --> 01:49:53.515
And I would say those are the two
areas where like, I feel like they

01:49:53.515 --> 01:49:58.895
act brotherly, but then like, when I
need a break now, at least the twins

01:49:58.895 --> 01:50:03.215
are old enough where I can be like,
you go roughhouse with Cole now.

01:50:03.365 --> 01:50:05.315
Like, you give mommy a break.

01:50:05.375 --> 01:50:07.265
And then they, they have a blast.

01:50:07.415 --> 01:50:09.035
I mean, Cole's laughing and giggling.

01:50:09.035 --> 01:50:10.625
They're Cole's running away from 'em.

01:50:10.625 --> 01:50:13.355
Then Cole's chasing them then, you
know, they're running after 'em.

01:50:13.715 --> 01:50:17.105
I mean, that, you know, I couldn't
do that a couple years ago just

01:50:17.105 --> 01:50:18.785
'cause they were still so little.

01:50:18.905 --> 01:50:23.795
But now, you know, they're, they're pretty
strong and they're old, you know, I'm not

01:50:23.795 --> 01:50:27.095
saying like he won't pinch them sometimes,
but as far as like the real roughhousing,

01:50:27.095 --> 01:50:31.250
he does not like hurt them or, you
know, he'll come and just sit on me.

01:50:31.250 --> 01:50:31.745
You know what I mean?

01:50:31.745 --> 01:50:34.985
Like, he'll, he'll just, he, you
know, but the twins, he doesn't, he

01:50:34.985 --> 01:50:36.305
doesn't do that kind of stuff to them.

01:50:36.305 --> 01:50:40.295
So he's, you know,
overall very kind to them.

01:50:43.205 --> 01:50:45.695
Rupert Isaacson: You've brought
this kind of full circle in that you

01:50:45.695 --> 01:50:52.745
started as a doctor, despite being
a doctor, there were no answers.

01:50:53.705 --> 01:50:55.925
You had to go out and formulate answers.

01:50:56.465 --> 01:51:01.865
And then being a doctor, as you said,
even when you were trying to find a

01:51:02.115 --> 01:51:09.825
support group, then being a physician,
you know, sort of blew your cover

01:51:09.825 --> 01:51:12.195
in a way and isolated you further.

01:51:15.105 --> 01:51:18.765
And yet now you've broken ground, you've.

01:51:20.130 --> 01:51:25.560
Managed to get the medical
establishment to begin to accept

01:51:27.390 --> 01:51:28.530
things like movement method.

01:51:30.180 --> 01:51:35.370
Talk to us about what's going on with
Virginia Medical School and all of

01:51:35.370 --> 01:51:41.250
that, because I think this is where
it's going for a lot of our work.

01:51:41.300 --> 01:51:47.630
And where it needs to go as we sort
of come from the hippie fringes

01:51:47.630 --> 01:51:52.310
where we've been for so long
now, edging into the mainstream.

01:51:52.810 --> 01:51:54.940
Talk to us about what's happened there.

01:51:56.830 --> 01:51:56.831
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:51:56.830 --> 01:52:02.110
Well, one of my physician friends and
colleagues who's in the pediatric world

01:52:02.160 --> 01:52:05.780
had connected me with the director of.

01:52:06.665 --> 01:52:10.205
The annual Autism Updates
conference that they have at Eastern

01:52:10.205 --> 01:52:13.655
Virginia Medical School each year,
which is in February each year.

01:52:13.775 --> 01:52:17.255
And Eastern Virginia Medical
School is the closest like

01:52:17.255 --> 01:52:20.075
academic medical center near us.

01:52:20.135 --> 01:52:22.895
Then the next closest would
be like VCU in Richmond.

01:52:23.375 --> 01:52:29.645
But I reached out to that physician
and said that I would like to be

01:52:29.645 --> 01:52:31.625
able to present at your conference.

01:52:31.985 --> 01:52:36.165
And he brought it to their planning
committee and they said yes.

01:52:36.165 --> 01:52:41.665
And then that's when I brought you over
in February of what would've that been?

01:52:42.355 --> 01:52:43.930
We just did this in 24, 23,

01:52:44.010 --> 01:52:44.210
Rupert Isaacson: I think

01:52:44.310 --> 01:52:44.311
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:52:44.310 --> 01:52:45.490
23 2

01:52:45.490 --> 01:52:45.650
Rupert Isaacson: or

01:52:45.650 --> 01:52:45.651
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:52:45.650 --> 01:52:48.505
2323, I think February of 23.

01:52:49.015 --> 01:52:53.485
And so we presented at the, at the
medical school there for the autism

01:52:53.485 --> 01:52:56.155
conference and it went very well.

01:52:56.255 --> 01:53:00.335
You know, there was like a line of people
waiting to talk to me when I went out to

01:53:00.335 --> 01:53:02.405
the bathroom after the talk and to you.

01:53:02.405 --> 01:53:07.905
And and then I was contacted after
asking if I was interested in

01:53:07.905 --> 01:53:12.075
creating my own neuroscience based
conference on movement method.

01:53:12.135 --> 01:53:13.425
And I was like, hell yes.

01:53:13.815 --> 01:53:18.165
And so then I relayed the new to
you, news to you, and then we got our

01:53:18.495 --> 01:53:23.355
planning committee together and you
came up with a lot of the people who

01:53:23.355 --> 01:53:27.615
have helped you formulate this over
the years and or who implement it.

01:53:27.645 --> 01:53:29.805
And I did the more.

01:53:30.285 --> 01:53:34.095
Academic medical side, putting together
a meeting side, all the continuing

01:53:34.095 --> 01:53:40.155
medical education side of stuff, which
is a ton of online forms and regulations

01:53:40.155 --> 01:53:41.565
and things that you have to meet.

01:53:41.775 --> 01:53:48.385
And then we pulled it off in September
of 24, and I think it was phenomenal.

01:53:48.385 --> 01:53:49.585
It was very well received.

01:53:49.585 --> 01:53:52.405
All the feedback from the
medical community that attended.

01:53:52.405 --> 01:53:54.775
It was really positive.

01:53:54.895 --> 01:54:01.415
And actually after that conference, mark
Lobel, who introduced himself to you,

01:54:01.415 --> 01:54:04.895
who's the head of the Virginia Autism
Foundation, he's a big supporter of chats.

01:54:05.415 --> 01:54:10.045
There were some teachers in the
audience that had reached out

01:54:10.165 --> 01:54:15.115
to him and wanted to implement
Movement method into the classrooms.

01:54:15.115 --> 01:54:19.375
And he funded like all the stuff
that they needed for, like, he as in

01:54:19.375 --> 01:54:24.435
Virginia Autism Foundation voted to fund
those teachers for their classrooms.

01:54:24.435 --> 01:54:29.475
So we already did make a, an impact
somewhat locally in the school system.

01:54:30.945 --> 01:54:33.080
Rupert Isaacson: But What school was
that in Virginia that's doing that?

01:54:34.360 --> 01:54:34.361
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:54:34.360 --> 01:54:37.275
Well, it was just some individual
teachers that attended the conference.

01:54:37.275 --> 01:54:38.655
It wasn't like a whole school.

01:54:38.655 --> 01:54:38.895
Right.

01:54:38.895 --> 01:54:39.450
One of which,

01:54:39.450 --> 01:54:41.175
Rupert Isaacson: which schools
are they at out of interest?

01:54:41.225 --> 01:54:41.226
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:54:41.225 --> 01:54:42.845
I, I think it's Newport News.

01:54:42.845 --> 01:54:43.145
Julie?

01:54:43.145 --> 01:54:44.885
I think Julie is in Newport News.

01:54:44.945 --> 01:54:46.595
I have to, I have to ask, do

01:54:46.595 --> 01:54:49.475
Rupert Isaacson: you know, are these
elementary schools or high school

01:54:50.345 --> 01:54:50.346
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:54:50.345 --> 01:54:50.375
elementaries?

01:54:50.375 --> 01:54:51.695
Elementary, special ed.

01:54:52.595 --> 01:54:55.295
Rupert Isaacson: Elementary, special
Ed, Newport, news Elementary.

01:54:55.295 --> 01:54:56.135
Mm-hmm.

01:54:56.165 --> 01:54:56.855
Special ed.

01:54:57.305 --> 01:54:59.735
Are they all from the same school
or are they, were they from

01:55:00.935 --> 01:55:00.936
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:55:00.935 --> 01:55:02.675
No, there were, there were two.

01:55:02.825 --> 01:55:07.265
There were three, I think
one was in Virginia Beach.

01:55:07.445 --> 01:55:08.675
Mm-hmm.

01:55:08.676 --> 01:55:08.677
Uhhuh.

01:55:08.975 --> 01:55:13.395
And she actually came and did a training
in movement method at the barn with Lee.

01:55:13.400 --> 01:55:13.800
Mm-hmm.

01:55:13.885 --> 01:55:17.685
And the other lady, I don't, I don't, I
can't remember off the top of my head.

01:55:17.685 --> 01:55:17.775
Mm-hmm.

01:55:18.375 --> 01:55:22.035
But also through that there's a
place called Maverick Learning,

01:55:22.185 --> 01:55:25.365
which is an autism school that
was created in Chesapeake, which

01:55:25.365 --> 01:55:26.655
is about 45 minutes from here.

01:55:26.655 --> 01:55:28.185
It's still part of Hampton Roads.

01:55:28.275 --> 01:55:31.635
And we we're, we are doing a training in
their school, so this is the first time

01:55:31.635 --> 01:55:34.185
we're going into a school and training.

01:55:34.185 --> 01:55:35.715
Lee's doing it in March.

01:55:36.195 --> 01:55:38.715
It's like a one day thing on the teacher.

01:55:38.745 --> 01:55:41.435
Like they're, they're like
I can't come up with a word.

01:55:41.435 --> 01:55:44.965
But anyway, we're doing a training
there, but the conference you know,

01:55:44.965 --> 01:55:50.635
it was very well received and we
plan to, to do one again in 2026.

01:55:50.635 --> 01:55:53.195
I still Kelly's still getting a date.

01:55:54.965 --> 01:55:55.445
Rupert Isaacson: Perfect.

01:55:55.865 --> 01:55:59.975
So listeners listen out for that, because
this was groundbreaking what happened

01:56:00.065 --> 01:56:05.975
in 24, the first neuroscience conference
for movement method for the work we are

01:56:05.975 --> 01:56:10.535
all doing in a, in a medical school.

01:56:12.505 --> 01:56:13.675
The more of these we do.

01:56:14.800 --> 01:56:19.180
The more kids and families
like us are gonna get helped.

01:56:19.300 --> 01:56:24.710
So we will be announcing that well
in advance so that those of you

01:56:24.710 --> 01:56:28.500
that want to come over for it in
Virginia Beach it's gonna be in

01:56:28.500 --> 01:56:30.590
Norfolk, Virginia can can attend.

01:56:30.720 --> 01:56:33.090
And if you can't attend in person,
obviously you can attend online.

01:56:33.640 --> 01:56:36.310
But it's, it's really a, oh, I
see Cole in the background there.

01:56:36.610 --> 01:56:36.611
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:56:36.610 --> 01:56:38.575
He's, Hey Cole.

01:56:39.315 --> 01:56:39.775
Hey Cole.

01:56:40.360 --> 01:56:40.960
You say hi.

01:56:43.120 --> 01:56:43.630
Rupert Isaacson: Hey, Cole.

01:56:43.630 --> 01:56:45.160
Don't, it's

01:56:47.440 --> 01:56:47.441
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:56:47.440 --> 01:56:47.830
hooray.

01:56:49.330 --> 01:56:50.020
Rupert Isaacson: Great to see you.

01:56:52.150 --> 01:56:54.400
Teenagers do not make me say hi.

01:56:55.570 --> 01:56:55.571
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:56:55.570 --> 01:56:55.930
Right.

01:56:57.190 --> 01:56:57.910
Rupert Isaacson: So big.

01:56:58.720 --> 01:56:58.721
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:56:58.720 --> 01:56:59.650
He is, he's huge.

01:57:00.790 --> 01:57:04.510
I keep lifting weights so that I can
mess him up if he tries to mess me up.

01:57:07.690 --> 01:57:07.840
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:57:07.840 --> 01:57:09.130
Attack is the best form of defense.

01:57:09.620 --> 01:57:09.890
Yeah.

01:57:11.120 --> 01:57:13.460
So Megan, you've, you've,
you've achieved so much.

01:57:13.670 --> 01:57:15.590
Where, so where do you wanna take it?

01:57:15.650 --> 01:57:16.580
What's next?

01:57:18.090 --> 01:57:18.091
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:57:18.090 --> 01:57:24.800
I, I really I wanna keep, I wanna keep
expanding it in a medical platform.

01:57:24.890 --> 01:57:29.630
I really want to get it in other
meetings across the country.

01:57:30.140 --> 01:57:31.820
I want it to become, I.

01:57:33.110 --> 01:57:34.190
Standard of care.

01:57:34.340 --> 01:57:37.820
So when you go to see your family
practice doctor, your pediatrician,

01:57:37.820 --> 01:57:43.550
the developmentalist, the neurologist,
that not only do they say speech

01:57:43.550 --> 01:57:46.700
therapy, occupational therapy, A, B,
A, but they also say movement method.

01:57:46.700 --> 01:57:50.690
It just needs to be part of daily
practice recommendations and that,

01:57:51.410 --> 01:57:53.690
that is one of my biggest goals.

01:57:54.110 --> 01:58:01.280
Secondary would be, you know, getting as
many children that I can out to chats and

01:58:01.280 --> 01:58:07.740
getting it fully sponsored, the lighting
as a struggle and you know, continuing.

01:58:07.740 --> 01:58:14.400
And then thirdly, to continue my
son's journey to potentially, I

01:58:14.400 --> 01:58:17.550
don't know, healing with some quirks.

01:58:18.240 --> 01:58:18.600
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:58:20.520 --> 01:58:22.115
Well the quirks are the magic.

01:58:22.185 --> 01:58:22.475
He's

01:58:22.475 --> 01:58:22.476
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:58:22.475 --> 01:58:22.915
following me.

01:58:25.260 --> 01:58:26.850
He's telling me enough is enough.

01:58:26.880 --> 01:58:27.300
Okay.

01:58:27.300 --> 01:58:27.480
Hold on.

01:58:28.560 --> 01:58:30.600
Rupert Isaacson: One last
question before we let you go.

01:58:30.630 --> 01:58:33.510
And Cole is quite right because
we've been at this for a while.

01:58:33.930 --> 01:58:38.340
How can people find you how
can people find chats online?

01:58:38.520 --> 01:58:42.630
How can people find out information about
trainings that you're doing at chats?

01:58:43.850 --> 01:58:43.851
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:58:43.850 --> 01:58:44.810
The website.

01:58:44.870 --> 01:58:45.530
Take a bath.

01:58:45.620 --> 01:58:46.130
Hold on.

01:58:46.700 --> 01:58:46.880
Rupert Isaacson: Take a.

01:58:47.535 --> 01:58:47.960
He does, he

01:58:47.960 --> 01:58:47.961
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:58:47.960 --> 01:58:49.040
wants to take a bath.

01:58:49.185 --> 01:58:49.475
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,

01:58:50.570 --> 01:58:50.571
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:58:50.570 --> 01:58:50.690
me too.

01:58:50.690 --> 01:58:50.691
Yeah.

01:58:51.241 --> 01:58:57.011
The website is
www.chatssevenfiveseven.com.

01:58:57.761 --> 01:59:04.451
The Facebook is the at sign and then
Kohls horse therapy, all one word.

01:59:05.561 --> 01:59:09.501
We're also on Instagram, but I don't
remember I don't remember the Yeah.

01:59:09.501 --> 01:59:12.621
Info for that, but you could
find it on the website for sure.

01:59:12.621 --> 01:59:15.681
But that's pretty much
where our main stuff is.

01:59:16.281 --> 01:59:18.351
Rupert Isaacson: Chat
seven five seven.com,

01:59:18.351 --> 01:59:24.671
7 5 7 being the area code and on
Facebook at Coles Horse Therapy.

01:59:25.541 --> 01:59:25.542
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:59:25.541 --> 01:59:25.961
Right?

01:59:26.081 --> 01:59:26.351
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,

01:59:26.411 --> 01:59:26.412
Dr. Megan McGavern:

01:59:26.411 --> 01:59:29.411
the fa the Facebook page
is, is pretty active.

01:59:29.411 --> 01:59:34.181
Like, I mean, I, I try to post on that,
you know, most days of the week with

01:59:34.181 --> 01:59:38.291
what's going on or something that's
happened or, you know, whatever.

01:59:39.041 --> 01:59:41.351
Rupert Isaacson: So, listen, listeners,
if, if you're a, if you're a parent,

01:59:41.351 --> 01:59:45.111
if you're a practitioner, if you are
a horse person if you're a teacher

01:59:45.561 --> 01:59:49.971
anywhere on the east coast of the USA,
you want to be looking to this work

01:59:49.971 --> 01:59:53.931
that's going on at chats and now at
Eastern Virginia Medical School as well.

01:59:54.441 --> 01:59:55.551
Hit Megan up.

01:59:55.611 --> 01:59:56.751
She will get back to you.

01:59:56.781 --> 01:59:58.431
She's a powerhouse, as you can see.

01:59:59.011 --> 01:59:59.851
And she'll help you.

02:00:00.071 --> 02:00:01.961
Megan, it's been an absolute delight.

02:00:03.716 --> 02:00:03.717
Dr. Megan McGavern:

02:00:03.716 --> 02:00:04.346
Thank you.

02:00:04.706 --> 02:00:08.426
And I guess I would sort of like
to end it with I guess two things.

02:00:08.456 --> 02:00:12.016
Thank you so much for
helping me change his life.

02:00:12.016 --> 02:00:15.256
I, I really am forever indebted for that.

02:00:15.316 --> 02:00:17.866
And then secondly, I'd
like to remember Hanya.

02:00:18.436 --> 02:00:23.776
Yeah, you just passed away, you know,
so she died last, not less like about

02:00:23.776 --> 02:00:27.316
eight days ago, so rest in peace.

02:00:27.316 --> 02:00:34.186
But she served a really, she served a lot
of children and changed so many lives.

02:00:34.576 --> 02:00:35.086
Rupert Isaacson: She did.

02:00:35.086 --> 02:00:37.906
And she, herself was a rescue horse.

02:00:37.906 --> 02:00:42.496
She had come out of a not so
great situation in Mexico, and

02:00:42.496 --> 02:00:45.966
as you say turned into the most

02:00:48.186 --> 02:00:52.676
giving generous horse, but a lot was
given back to she, she gave so much love.

02:00:52.676 --> 02:00:54.386
So people gave love back to her.

02:00:54.386 --> 02:00:57.476
And I would say that was a horse
that really had a life well

02:00:57.476 --> 02:00:58.766
lived and a death, well died.

02:00:58.766 --> 02:01:02.816
I mean, a, a a self-actualized
equine life, you know?

02:01:02.906 --> 02:01:06.446
And you're certainly exemplary
in your care for her.

02:01:06.506 --> 02:01:08.426
So I'm grateful to you for that.

02:01:09.116 --> 02:01:09.117
Dr. Megan McGavern:

02:01:09.116 --> 02:01:10.046
Yeah, absolutely.

02:01:13.076 --> 02:01:13.646
Okay.

02:01:14.396 --> 02:01:14.906
Rupert Isaacson: All right.

02:01:14.906 --> 02:01:19.286
Well, till the next time, so we will, we,
it's, it's gonna be the next thing pushing

02:01:19.286 --> 02:01:22.526
forward for this next conference in 2006.

02:01:23.156 --> 02:01:24.711
I guess we get our britches on.

02:01:28.826 --> 02:01:29.696
We'll be talking then.

02:01:31.556 --> 02:01:31.557
Dr. Megan McGavern:

02:01:31.556 --> 02:01:32.186
Okay.

02:01:32.576 --> 02:01:33.146
Rupert Isaacson: Alright.

02:01:34.226 --> 02:01:34.946
Till next time.

02:01:35.636 --> 02:01:35.637
Dr. Megan McGavern:

02:01:35.636 --> 02:01:36.446
Okay, take care.

02:01:36.446 --> 02:01:36.926
Thank you,

02:01:37.016 --> 02:01:37.436
Rupert Isaacson: you too.

02:01:37.676 --> 02:01:38.126
Bye-bye.

02:01:38.666 --> 02:01:38.667
Dr. Megan McGavern:

02:01:38.666 --> 02:01:39.116
Bye.

02:01:39.996 --> 02:01:43.006
Rupert Isaacson: If you're a horse
nerd, and if you're on this podcast,

02:01:43.406 --> 02:01:48.306
I'm guessing you are, then you've
probably also always wondered a little

02:01:48.306 --> 02:01:50.556
bit about the old master system.

02:01:51.021 --> 02:01:52.331
of dressage training.

02:01:52.371 --> 02:02:00.941
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step

02:02:01.011 --> 02:02:07.291
exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse

02:02:07.301 --> 02:02:13.821
of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional

02:02:13.871 --> 02:02:16.641
well being of the horse and the rider.

02:02:16.701 --> 02:02:17.441
Intrigued?

02:02:17.641 --> 02:02:18.501
Like to know more?

02:02:19.371 --> 02:02:22.201
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.

02:02:23.901 --> 02:02:25.591
Check out the free introduction course.

02:02:26.151 --> 02:02:26.671
Take it from there.