Welcome to Digication Scholars Conversations.
I'm your host, Kelly Driscoll.
In this episode, you'll hear part two of my conversation with Kyle Hewson, Vice
Chair and Clinical Associate Professor in the Doctorate in Physical Therapy
program at Stony Brook University.
More links and information about today's conversation can be found on Digication's
Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.
Full episodes of Digication Scholars Conversations can be found on
YouTube or your favorite podcast app.
You know, I feel like the role of physical therapist and healthcare is so different
than the kind of relationship that one has with a doctor, for instance, where
you have a really kind of Define period of time that you're with them and, and
sometimes physical therapist you may work with for months or years and really
become your partner in rehabilitation.
And you spend a lot of time together often, um, depending on the extent
of, um, rehabilitation needed.
And it really does become a more personal relationship, I think, because
you have that amount of time together.
And you're often having a lot of time together when you as the
patient are in pain and already vulnerable because of that.
And they become, you know, your cheerleader and your support person.
And as you mentioned, also your teacher, um, because they're trying to give you
the tools to be able to kind of take care of yourself when you're not well.
Right there with them and educate you on why certain movements or exercises
or, um, even breathing techniques, you know, are so important in your healing.
Um, and I was curious as the students are kind of going through the program, there
is Is this kind of storytelling something that's encouraged with their patients?
Um, because I think it's something that we don't often hear about with doctors, for
instance, you know, because of the limited time that you're with them, really.
Yes.
Yeah.
I think there's two parts to it.
I think that we want to get I think all the things you said are spot on.
I mean, the sense of we, we want to encourage, we want to know them more.
So we want to hear about their, we always, we'd say that every patient,
a diagnosis can be very similar, but their role in life, they could be a
mother, they could have a job in the city that they have to take, you know,
two subways and then go up three, four, five or four flights of stairs.
They could, um, they could have, uh, you know, they could be an athlete that
they're trying to get a scholarship.
And, you know, this is like, are you kidding me?
This happened to me.
So we, the injuries are all the same, but the stories behind it and all the roles
are complex and how they handle their injury and where they are in this, you
know, so you have the Cycles of grief.
I say, Oh, you, we tend to get them at like the anger and depression time,
you know, so, and then how do you, cause it's a huge change in their life.
Um, so how they cope and what we, so definitely.
So a lot of times we can, Connect.
So this, as I mentioned, so it's kind of where they're at, but then also what can
we do in our experience of what we've seen, how other patients have coped?
Can we bring someone in that might've, Oh, you know what?
You know, this person, this person over there on the other
side of the gym, she was just in the same spot as you a month ago.
I'm going to bring you two together and just talk a little bit.
So that's really important.
Um, and then, you know, you, you never say as a therapist, I know.
You, you can say, I've had a lot of patients that have
struggled with what you have.
Um, sometimes there's a cycle, like a person gets better really fast
and then they kind of hang out and takes a while to get, and this is
the boring and the tedious part.
And then like, do I ever get sex?
And then, and it's also hard for a therapist to say, you know, I'm
not sure if you're ever getting back to the baseline that you want.
Right, right.
You know, to that athlete or to that, you know, the person that has a neurological
disorder or whatever, so, right.
I mean, yeah.
Yeah.
So they do learn, I think it's a little difficult for them that all, they're
not gonna help everyone and they're helping them, but not what they think.
That everyone's not getting back to a hundred percent that they're, they're at.
This is what I explained to them, they're shifting a phase, they're now
at a different phase in their life and what, how you influence and they
never, they never forget you as a therapist at that time, that's for sure.
Yeah.
So true.
And I also think, I'm sure for your students, there's also conversations
about how the patient has to be a big, you know, they have to make
decisions about how they're going to take care of themselves too.
Absolutely.
Yeah, yeah.
I agree, yeah.
So, how do we motivate and how can we help them adhere and, you know, be successful.
Give all kinds of suggestions and human nature, of course, is a biggie.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Are they introduced to, um, some kind of, kind of psychology around that process?
So you mentioned that very often they're meeting people at this kind of grieving
stage and may be depressed because, you know, it's a big transition probably from
where they were to where they are now.
So what, what kind of, how is that introduced in the curriculum?
So that's right up my alley too.
So of course, one of the requirements of coming to the program and Stacia
wide is they have to take a psychology class of some kind in undergrad.
So that could be normal development or it could be abnormal or,
you know with child, whatever.
So that's Many of them actually can be in any kind of bachelor's degree
when they come, they can be musicians, they can, so psychology is a great one
if they are doing that because they know they're going to work eventually
with people that are in crisis.
Um, so this, In the first, uh, summer that I mentioned that class, we do one course
on, um, one class on communication and a little bit on culture and why culture,
you know, you may come across this way.
I'm a, I'm a loud person.
I'm a, I talk fast, high energy.
That could totally not work with someone who is just Just, you know, from a
different culture or not understanding, I'm giving too many directions.
Right?
Yeah.
So we just talk generally about that.
And again, they're still new.
Um, we share different experiences.
In the second year, we have a class and it's just started, um, it's called
psychosocial aspects of disability.
Mm-Hmm.
. So we look at all the parts, what.
You know, what are all the different avenues and areas, I should say,
that are affecting why a patient is having difficulty or they're
bringing this to the table.
So again, culture is mentioned again.
We look at spirituality.
We look at avenues that might not be good.
Substance abuse.
Um, we look at pain.
How pain, you know, like, so people that are chronic pain, their
families seems kind of like, Hey, you know, come on, you can handle it.
One day they can another day they can't.
So all the different aspects of how we would be challenged, um, as a therapist
and that we have to understand.
And, you know, that's a lifelong process.
Um, I always say, I, I only am as as the experiences that I've had, you know, I
tell them if I had my choice go work in a large city, in a clinic or a hospital
and be involved with as many types of patients and types of diagnosis and ages
just explode and be like, you know, Wow.
There's 16 languages being spoken in this room, you know, so that
would be that really, it can be difficult, but what, what a great
challenge and you'd learn so much.
So that is really, and so they learn about that from each other.
Um, I get it's not, there's no recipe book for this, but we also give them the
two things are as a therapist, how does this area about substance abuse or even
suicide, what do you do in your role?
How do you say something to the patient?
You know, I've noticed recently, Kyle, that you seem extremely down.
You're usually able to just handle our session together, but som...
is something is going on?
And then they say something like, Yeah, I really, you know, I'm done with this.
And you're like, Okay, so then what do you say and then, so what are the
supports and then how do you refer and to our other mental health professionals
and what's available in the community?
I say your job also when you end up wherever you may be, you need to know
in that community all the resources.
So if you're a small clinic, you know you can call 9 1 1, but who else is around?
Yeah, like the relationship with your physician.
Do they have a counselor?
Do they have, you know, all these things.
What's, what are your resources in your library?
What are your resources in associations that maybe someone has multiple sclerosis?
Well, guess what?
They have this fantastic chat room meets every Mondays.
And everyone just vents about, this is an awful diagnosis, you know, so that
is really your job to be an advocate and know where you kind of can't be
a counselor, but who can help you.
So, I think that's again, that is again, I'm going to say the problem solving part.
of being a physical therapist and your brain is always thinking about,
Oh, I got to make sure, make sure.
Oh, you know what?
You, you'll be really great with some new orthopedic shoes
because you have diabetes.
You need this and you know, all you are the reference and referral source,
which is really, really an honor.
to be able to kind of help them in these other areas of life, even finances, right?
Finances are huge.
We can't fix that boat.
Oh, do you know that there is this association that maybe could get your
child a power wheelchair, you know, like there's, there's things out there.
Yeah.
And as you were speaking, I was also reminded of a slightly different topic,
but another thing that's really core to you and your background and your teaching
is around ethics in working with patients.
Could you speak to that a little bit also?
So I always joke around that, you know, how did I get involved in this?
This is usually one of those very dry topics, but, um, it's so important.
Yeah.
It doesn't necessarily always mean I'm going to say doing
the right thing all the time.
It's actually just knowing, and this is how, again, how I present it, that in
any situation, You have many options.
So my goal in the third year is I'll give them a case.
I'll be like, okay, think of every single option that you could do in this case,
including the big one is do nothing.
Just not going to do anything.
I'm going to pretend I never heard this and then you go through them.
So maybe you have ten, five of them.
There's no win win.
It doesn't make a change.
It's really kind of doesn't follow the legal, uh, you know, the
legality of your practice act.
So you cross those out.
Okay, now you're down to your five.
Okay, so which one would be the most powerful?
Which one for you would be the most powerful?
Difficult.
A lot of times it's confrontation of any kind.
Who, how could, who could you trust that you could talk to about the
situation and could really keep confidence and be able to guide you?
And I've had students send me an email way after they're graduated, you know, Hi
Kyle, I'm not going to give you the name of this person, but I have this scenario.
What do you think?
And I'd be like, you know what?
You are spot on.
Great idea.
This is a three step thing.
You're going to go first with your supervisor.
Then you're going to go together and talk to the patient and then you're,
you know, so it's that kind of thing.
So it's, again, it's really communication, but in a larger scope and a little
bit more of pressure on them that you may be like, I don't want to
deal with this, but guess what?
You have to, because this is a big thing.
So we talk about fraud.
We talk about people not practicing, uh, you know, the practice act, which is a
little different in each state, kind of how, how, um, Physical therapy assistants
can work and aides and different, you know, um, boundaries that they have.
So you have to be, and it's tough, um, some of these are easy to fix and some
are more that you say, you know what, this is not going to be fixed and I've
tried and I'm going to leave this job.
So that, you know, that is kind of a big thing.
But, um, so I've kind of broken it down.
I mean, there's so many beautiful books on ethics and
healthcare and working together.
So it's a good blend.
Um, some of my students are, they're like, Oh, they're able
to figure it out right away.
And they're kind of probably in the back of the room like, Kyle,
really, we have to go over this.
And then all the students are like, I have no idea how to fix this.
So, you know, that's kind of how we, we do group discussions
and cases and things like that.
Yeah.
Well, and I'm sure sometimes, you know, hearing about it and thinking that you
know how you might respond, um, you know, can be different in theory than when,
you know, you're out in the field and you have, you know, various hierarchical
relationships and, um, yeah.
And your income is dependent on things, you know, it really changes, changes
things and how wonderful that they.
You know, have the opportunity to kind of break it down with you while
there's still students and then coming back to you as a resource afterward
and knowing that, um, you can give them some continued mentorship.
I'm, I'm sure that that makes.
You're heartful to knowing that, yeah, that they can come to you
and do, um, that's very powerful.
Um, so I also wanted to talk a little bit about, uh, some of the project-based
learning that happens as the students are moving through your program.
Um, could you talk about some of the projects?
It seems like they have some that are at each of the different, um, kind of years.
there.
Well, how is that kind of designed and presented?
So I'll talk a little bit about the template and just explain that.
So they, you know, as I said, they do kind of that first year, uh,
welcome and all about themselves.
And then they have first, second and third year and they get to
choose, um, the first year and the second year, uh, two or three.
I think it's three classes that they really enjoyed and did some
kind of project like you mentioned.
So, um, you know, I, I always say to them, by the time you graduate, after
three years, you'll have every type of learning, uh, methodology, teaching
methodology to you, you know, there's group work and there's presentations
and there's, um, going out to a clinic.
Uh, so we use our, um, veterans home right on campus.
And so you learn something in neurology, neurological.
Physical Therapy, but now you actually go and try it and connect
with one of our residents and Chris, they have a great time.
And then you debrief and be like, Oh my gosh, I was, my hand was shaking as I was
trying to touch his arm or something, you know, and you don't realize, you know,
all those things, how nervous you are.
So I, we also have a patient simulation, um, So you have to go in, and you don't
know what's going to happen, and you're in a, you're being watched by your
classmates in another room, and it's really, you know, you have your, you have
your laptop, and everyone's listening, and you know, so, and, and it's usually,
so there's There's just so many great things now in education to, to look
at it from different ways, you know.
So the projects, we have a kinesiology project, they have to, they're given
an area of the body, the hip joint, or something that's interesting to them.
And they have to create a project actually out of wood or plastic or
something to actually demonstrate.
And then we have a fair and they stand in front of their object.
And then they have to explain to us how they use pipe cleaners Or they use
pulleys or whatever it may be, a Play Doh, or to make a point of how this
joint works and, you know, the mechanism.
So, so they've taken pictures of that and sometimes they've
written a little bit about that.
Um, I actually have my curriculum map here, so let me take a quick
look if there's anything else.
Um, Yeah, I love that that's actually shown also.
So people have the opportunity to really go in and see the entire curriculum.
Yeah, and then they learn a lot about physical therapy by just
looking at the different topics.
Wow.
You know, the each clinic, uh, clinical experience, they do
have to do a presentation so they can put that in service up.
And I always say that, listen, you know, you already did
something in one of these classes.
You can, Take that wonderful presentation and use it as in services.
You kind of get a twofer out of that.
So, um, we also have, um, patients come in to our, um, you know, to our university
as an example, uh, share their stories.
Um, also in neurological physical therapy, someone that might be, uh, have a spinal
cord injury might share how, again, their kind of grieving cycle and kind of how
they found their place and, if it was hard to find work they wanted to do and
then they did and or whatever it may be that, again, that share their road.
I mean, pediatrics, same thing.
Our teacher brings, um, some of, she's had some of these, uh, children since
they were babies all the way now.
She knows them in their teenage years and they're growing up so she'll have that.
Come in and share.
So we have baby day in the summer, uh, where all the babies come in because
we're learning normal development.
So anyone from zero to three, these kids are, you know,
they try look at the reflexes.
So the more you can kind of integrate, uh, You know, like lectures and PowerPoints
that you have to memorize and understand and make it become, you know, come alive.
And again, that's used.
But that is a typical thing in many physical therapy programs,
all different ways of interacting.
And then now, you know, the buzzword is interprofessional practice.
So we've been doing that with.
Occupational Therapy and Physician's Assistant.
Our school has a large event now every spring.
Uh, last year was on ethics and we've done one, I think, on communication.
So, I don't know what the topic is this year, but, uh, you know, how can we all
add our piece to it if we're a respiratory therapist or we're, you know, uh, Applied
Health Informatics, whatever we may face.
Yeah.
Uh, let me see, I'll look at one more thing and give you another example.
Um, yeah, um, in health and wellness, which is in their third year, they
actually do a project on, I think it's over an eight week period.
They have someone in their life that might have want to do something to get well.
It could be anything, smoking.
It could be trying to get their cholesterol down.
So actually, um, The professor, uh, gave me, uh, sent me an
email about that recently.
It was one of the students sister is a skier and wanted to get fit to go back
on the slopes, you know, and every year, you know, it's kind of like, Oh my gosh,
I didn't do, I didn't get in shape and this is tough and I might injure myself.
So they put her on a eight week exercise program and she sent
an email, she went to Colorado.
She sent an email to her sister.
You have no idea.
I am doing fantastic..
I feel limber and I feel strong.
So, so things like that.
So that's a health and wellness course.
And it's trying to just show that it doesn't necessarily
always have to be an injury.
It could be a preventive type of look at that.
You can have a PT practice that is all about prevention and, you know,
trying to avoid some of those things.
Things that, you know, you might have in your family or in your workplace.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yes.
Absolutely.
That's good.
You know, there's a lot, as I said, it's packed.
Definitely packed.
And you can see, yeah, you can see it as you kind of go through it.
And I kind of think about it as kind of unfolding the layers of, of their story
really, and, um, You know, right from that welcome page, you know, you often get to
get a little, you know, a little picture.
There's actual pictures, but you also just get a little picture
of who the individual student is.
So, as you go through the various pages, you have in mind that kind
of history and background and.
Passion for what they're doing and you can, you can literally see that growth
just being kind of manifest as you're going through and viewing their work.
And you mentioned that there's, um, certain points, uh, in some of the
courses where the students do have the opportunity to actually utilize
the technology in the classroom and sharing things with other peers.
Um, do they give feedback on each other's work in those spaces or is it more of a
informal kind of sharing and storytelling and connection kind of building?
I'm curious how.
You know, what levels of kind of assessment or review of the student
experiences may be happening throughout the program, too?
Yeah, so that's a great idea.
And it's kind of changed through the years.
It's usually has been more informal.
Um, sometimes we've had, uh, you know, we can, it's the first and the last
years, uh, kind of their beginning and, you know, pre and post of how
they gather everything together.
Those are part of my courses and it's just a percentage and they, it's.
This is what you need to do and this is what you want to put into it.
And then we definitely have, you know, take a look at each other's
and, and check, um, you know, see, see, again, learn about someone new.
And at the end I mentioned like, you know, someone that you, you, you
didn't know maybe about that person.
We've done it in the middle on the second year course.
We have done it in the past kind of like as, okay, you're adding
this to um, your second year.
Sometimes it's just been an email from me.
Hi guys, you're at the midpoint now of, of our, um, you know, program.
Please update.
And then sometimes I've been like, oh, you just hold on to it,
but then you lay it at the end.
So it's been different, but I think that's a great point.
I think there is usually more of a surprise of like, Oh, I didn't know.
So that kind of thing.
Um, but yeah, I mean, it's, it's a very good suggestion.
Um, I usually, I do have, um, more of a rubric of just kind of, you
know, uh, the, what did you include and you were, you know, you were
meaningful or you went above and beyond.
And I do ask, um, usually about five or six of students of the classes, look,
can I use your portfolio next year as examples to show to the new students, you
know, what, uh, what, what you've done.
And, you know, some of them are just because you can change the banner and
this and that and the colors and, you know, so, Um, I was trying to, I was
trying to go back to see when did I actually switch from paper to ePortfolios
because I only have, I only have a certain amount of years on this computer.
Um, we started in, we, we always had a large program, about 50 or 60 students
and in 2013 we split to two campuses, uh, close by within an hour and we have, uh,
so I'm out here in Southampton and then we have Stony Brook, our main campus.
So it's 50 and 35.
So I actually went back in and I remember that first class was
out here, which would have been 2013 and they were 2016 graduates.
One of our students put a video of her doing like aerial dancing with this
ribbon and I'm like, what is this?
So we've just laughed and you know, she is.
Super strong and she's a really just a great student.
So that was, I remember her.
So that was definitely 2013, you know, just a decade already.
Yeah.
These incredible experiences that your, your students have had.
And, um, it's wonderful that you're kind of connecting with the students
before they graduate to kind of see who's, Ready to become an
exemplar for the incoming cohort.
And I'm sure as the, the program has kind of involved, and as you know, Digication
keeps evolving too, as we're working with different schools and, and learning
how, you know, different educators and students, and even alumni are kind
of putting it, putting it to work.
So it's been such a joy to have this Kind of long term partnership and
collaboration with, with Stony Brook so that we can all kind of celebrate
that, that evolution together.
It's, it's always so much fun to see what the students are doing
and it's very inspiring to us to, to see that and to also have the
opportunity to connect to educators.
Like you who are really providing this incredible opportunity for your
students and giving them a space where they can really celebrate who they are
and everything that they're learning.
And, um, I was curious if you've heard from any.
Students after graduation, if they've been able to share it with any
audiences outside of the institution.
I know that some have opted to make them public, but we don't often
hear, you know, what that, you know, next step is when they public.
Yeah.
I actually don't.
I can't recall anyone now.
I know that, um, you know, when people are kind of the hot area
for posting information about yourself is LinkedIn, of course.
So, um, sometimes, you know, the idea of moving some material over, um, I
know that they, Can download the whole portfolio and and take it with them.
We give them, I think it's an extra six months after graduation to have access.
Um, you know, because then they, they will not have their Stony Brook emails.
And most of them, as I said, if they, Decide to make it public or not.
And usually it's within the university initially.
Yeah.
No, it's okay.
Cause I, I had, sorry to say, I don't have any specifics for that.
Yeah.
But I also, I wanted you to be aware too, that, um, Digication does
provide unlimited alumni access.
So if they did want to update their account to be with their personal
credentials, if they lose access to this, you know, that's great.
I didn't know that.
No, that would be great.
Okay.
Wonderful.
Yeah.
It's definitely something that they can continue using after graduation.
We do have those options to download and of course they could get to individual.
files as well anytime.
Um, but yeah, we, we're very happy to continue hosting it for them.
There's some other programs that take advantage of that too.
Okay.
That's good to know.
Great.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, I know we're getting close to the end of our time today, Kyle, and I just,
I just really, again, wanted to thank you so much for, for joining me to share your
experience, uh, again, over a decade now, uh, using this kind of technology with
your students and, um, so excited to be able to share what they have done and,
and their extraordinary stories as well.
Thank you so much.
My pleasure.
Absolutely.
Talk to you soon.
Okay.
Bye.