WEBVTT 00:00:00.750 --> 00:00:03.290 Matt Abrahams: Communication is all about connection. 00:00:03.840 --> 00:00:09.030 But first, we have to give ourselves time and space to connect. 00:00:09.840 --> 00:00:13.200 My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at 00:00:13.200 --> 00:00:15.030 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:15.360 --> 00:00:19.110 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:19.680 --> 00:00:21.835 Today, I'm really excited to speak with Dan Harris. 00:00:22.349 --> 00:00:26.879 Dan is a former national news anchor for ABC News in the United States. 00:00:27.210 --> 00:00:32.670 He's the podcast host of 10% Happier and author of two books, 10% Happier 00:00:32.910 --> 00:00:35.460 and Meditation for Fidgety Skeptics. 00:00:35.640 --> 00:00:36.360 Welcome, Dan. 00:00:36.570 --> 00:00:38.760 I look forward to our conversation. 00:00:39.060 --> 00:00:39.420 Dan Harris: Me too. 00:00:39.420 --> 00:00:40.110 Thanks for having me. 00:00:40.379 --> 00:00:40.739 Matt Abrahams: Yeah. 00:00:40.739 --> 00:00:41.580 Shall we get started? 00:00:41.955 --> 00:00:42.315 Dan Harris: Yeah. 00:00:42.645 --> 00:00:43.275 Matt Abrahams: Alright. 00:00:43.635 --> 00:00:47.535 You are very open about an on-air panic attack that you had. 00:00:47.835 --> 00:00:50.745 Can you tell us about the experience and how it changed you and your 00:00:50.745 --> 00:00:52.010 approach to life in general? 00:00:53.084 --> 00:00:57.194 Dan Harris: Yeah, this happened back in 2004, so twenty-one years ago, on Good 00:00:57.194 --> 00:01:01.364 Morning America, where I was anchoring the news and found myself unable to 00:01:01.364 --> 00:01:03.675 breathe in the middle of my shtick. 00:01:03.794 --> 00:01:06.975 Actually, if you Google it, just Google panic attack on television it's the 00:01:06.975 --> 00:01:10.575 first result, um, which is great, uh. 00:01:10.875 --> 00:01:12.615 Matt Abrahams: You can be reminded of it whenever you want. 00:01:12.615 --> 00:01:13.065 Dan Harris: Exactly. 00:01:13.605 --> 00:01:15.795 Just the type of thing I want to go viral for. 00:01:15.885 --> 00:01:16.155 Yeah. 00:01:16.155 --> 00:01:17.265 It was horrible. 00:01:17.265 --> 00:01:21.675 And afterwards I learned that the cause of it was my recreational drug use, 00:01:21.675 --> 00:01:24.855 which had come about as a result of my, having spent a lot of time in war 00:01:24.855 --> 00:01:27.735 zones as a reporter after nine eleven. 00:01:28.185 --> 00:01:32.085 And so the whole thing was just a cascade of mindlessness, but the good 00:01:32.085 --> 00:01:36.045 news is that it landed me in therapy and then ultimately led me to meditation. 00:01:36.435 --> 00:01:40.245 And then I wrote a book about meditation that came out about eleven years ago. 00:01:40.245 --> 00:01:45.945 And that, you know, both the practice and writing a book about it, completely 00:01:45.945 --> 00:01:47.595 changed the trajectory of my life. 00:01:47.595 --> 00:01:50.205 And it's, in that sense, it's been a blessing. 00:01:50.730 --> 00:01:53.040 Matt Abrahams: Well, first, I thank you for sharing this story and 00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:56.820 it's hard to share publicly when bad things happen, but thank you. 00:01:57.120 --> 00:02:01.410 I first got to know about you through your book and uh, I'm part of this longstanding 00:02:01.410 --> 00:02:04.080 book club and we read your book and it actually fundamentally changed some of the 00:02:04.080 --> 00:02:05.840 things that a lot of us do, so thank you. 00:02:06.490 --> 00:02:10.139 Many of our listeners are working to feel more confident and 00:02:10.410 --> 00:02:12.630 comfortable in their communication. 00:02:12.840 --> 00:02:17.365 As somebody who communicated in front of hundreds of thousands, millions of people, 00:02:17.565 --> 00:02:22.095 what specific tactics and practices can you suggest to help them manage their 00:02:22.155 --> 00:02:24.495 anxiety around that type of communication? 00:02:25.425 --> 00:02:29.295 Dan Harris: One of the goals of successful interpersonal communication is to keep the 00:02:29.295 --> 00:02:33.755 amygdala, the stress center of the brain, offline, and the prefrontal cortex, the 00:02:33.755 --> 00:02:36.315 locus of reason and rationality, online. 00:02:36.315 --> 00:02:40.005 And so how are you gonna frame this in a way that, you know, works with 00:02:40.005 --> 00:02:41.355 the brain of your interlocutor? 00:02:41.655 --> 00:02:45.225 Uh, and if you do that planning in advance and think through, say, what's my 00:02:45.255 --> 00:02:50.475 positive intention in this conversation, it really can reduce your blood pressure 00:02:50.475 --> 00:02:52.245 going into a high stakes conversation. 00:02:52.709 --> 00:02:55.140 Matt Abrahams: So that attention and intention can 00:02:55.140 --> 00:02:56.519 really make a big difference. 00:02:56.519 --> 00:03:00.720 So framing it as a way that you can be focused on the good and the value rather 00:03:00.720 --> 00:03:02.760 than the triggering of all the anxiety. 00:03:03.030 --> 00:03:05.700 I'm curious though, when you were doing broadcasting, did you get nervous 00:03:05.700 --> 00:03:08.670 at all or were you just imagining talking to a camera and not all the 00:03:08.670 --> 00:03:10.829 people that were behind the camera? 00:03:11.190 --> 00:03:12.359 Dan Harris: Oh, I got nervous every time. 00:03:12.359 --> 00:03:14.609 I still get nervous every time I have to go on TV. 00:03:14.609 --> 00:03:17.399 I mean, what the panic attack on television revealed is that 00:03:17.399 --> 00:03:19.739 I have panic disorder, so, and I still struggle with it. 00:03:19.769 --> 00:03:24.675 It's very powerful physiological, psychological phenomenon. 00:03:24.675 --> 00:03:30.735 And yet there's something really surreal about talking to a camera 00:03:30.735 --> 00:03:33.665 and knowing there are millions of people on the other side of it 00:03:33.665 --> 00:03:36.615 live, um, but you can't see them. 00:03:37.125 --> 00:03:40.455 And that in some ways, to me, is even more terrifying than getting up in 00:03:40.455 --> 00:03:42.015 front of thousands of people live. 00:03:42.585 --> 00:03:46.560 Matt Abrahams: And in some ways we all do this in our own mini version of it when we 00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:51.090 are on Zooms, Teams, Meets, and WebExes, although I guess we get to see them. 00:03:51.750 --> 00:03:55.050 I'm curious, how would you calm some of that if it happened every single time? 00:03:55.320 --> 00:03:58.990 Dan Harris: The number one was planning and practicing and rehearsing. 00:03:59.079 --> 00:04:04.870 That I, if I knew I had some lines to deliver, I would really practice 00:04:04.890 --> 00:04:06.390 them and rehearse them in advance. 00:04:06.390 --> 00:04:10.845 And that's another technique anybody can use, whether you're doing public 00:04:10.845 --> 00:04:16.185 speaking or, uh, going into a potentially tough conversation with your boss, is 00:04:16.185 --> 00:04:21.704 to really rehearse, not only to think carefully about what it is you wanna say, 00:04:21.704 --> 00:04:23.295 but to rehearse how you're gonna say it. 00:04:23.295 --> 00:04:28.455 Hopefully not in a way that you come across as programmed or robotic, but in 00:04:28.455 --> 00:04:36.885 a way that you've got the content in your bones, such that you have some measure of 00:04:36.885 --> 00:04:38.835 confidence going into the conversation. 00:04:39.405 --> 00:04:39.915 Matt Abrahams: Excellent. 00:04:39.915 --> 00:04:40.185 Yes. 00:04:40.185 --> 00:04:43.185 So that practice, that rehearsal helps you feel just more comfortable. 00:04:43.975 --> 00:04:47.415 So, I one hundred percent believe in the value of mindfulness and 00:04:47.415 --> 00:04:53.385 meditation, but I struggle to quiet my mind and just be still, uh, I find 00:04:53.385 --> 00:04:57.285 myself gravitating towards types of meditation where movement is involved. 00:04:57.285 --> 00:05:00.645 So yoga and, and for many, many years I've been doing Qigong. 00:05:01.065 --> 00:05:06.539 I am curious, what advice and guidance do you have for people like me who 00:05:06.780 --> 00:05:10.380 understand the value of meditation, it's just hard to quiet the mind? 00:05:11.280 --> 00:05:12.120 Dan Harris: Well, two things to say. 00:05:12.120 --> 00:05:15.795 First, I think you should do what works, and it sounds to me that 00:05:15.795 --> 00:05:17.415 you've found things that work for you. 00:05:17.475 --> 00:05:21.375 I'm not a fundamentalist in any way sort of sometimes say that I'm, 00:05:21.375 --> 00:05:25.425 uh, dogmatically non-dogmatic, so you should do what works for you. 00:05:25.665 --> 00:05:28.275 The second thing is just to do a little myth busting on the clearing 00:05:28.275 --> 00:05:29.655 the mind or stealing the mind. 00:05:29.925 --> 00:05:32.745 That is not the goal of mindfulness meditation. 00:05:33.105 --> 00:05:35.985 It's really a, a pernicious misconception about the practice. 00:05:35.985 --> 00:05:39.490 Probably the most damaging misconception about the practice. 00:05:39.849 --> 00:05:43.650 The goal is not to sit and get all of your thoughts to evaporate or 00:05:43.650 --> 00:05:45.270 to feel calm or anything like that. 00:05:45.690 --> 00:05:48.060 The goal is, in fact, not to feel any kind of way. 00:05:48.539 --> 00:05:53.880 It's to feel whatever you are feeling, clearly, so that your feelings 00:05:53.880 --> 00:05:55.680 in general don't own you as much. 00:05:56.130 --> 00:06:00.870 So just to get super granular, if you sit in meditation and try to focus on 00:06:00.870 --> 00:06:04.110 your breath, for example, and then notice that you're getting carried away, and 00:06:04.110 --> 00:06:07.440 then you wake up from distraction and start again, and then there's another 00:06:07.440 --> 00:06:10.110 distraction a nanosecond later, and then you wake up from that and you 00:06:10.110 --> 00:06:13.110 start again, that is correct practice. 00:06:13.380 --> 00:06:16.050 The thing that's happening that you are telling yourself is a 00:06:16.050 --> 00:06:18.090 failure is actually success. 00:06:18.630 --> 00:06:21.300 The whole goal is just to try to focus on one thing at a time, 00:06:22.409 --> 00:06:24.270 get distracted, start again. 00:06:24.270 --> 00:06:28.440 And in that moment of getting distracted and starting again, you are seeing 00:06:28.440 --> 00:06:32.580 something really important and powerful, which is that you have a mind and you 00:06:32.580 --> 00:06:37.530 are thinking, and that these thoughts are wild and outta control and often negative 00:06:37.530 --> 00:06:41.490 and repetitive, and you don't have to take them so seriously or personally, 00:06:41.550 --> 00:06:46.020 you don't have to act out every neurotic impulse as if it was in the words of 00:06:46.020 --> 00:06:48.300 my meditation teacher, a tiny dictator. 00:06:48.385 --> 00:06:51.735 So, just to sum up, one, do what works for you. 00:06:52.455 --> 00:06:59.025 Two, don't be fooled into thinking that meditation requires you to forcibly 00:06:59.055 --> 00:07:02.295 clear your mind, which is impossible unless you're enlightened or dead. 00:07:02.594 --> 00:07:07.094 The thing that you're telling yourself is a sign of failure in your meditation 00:07:07.335 --> 00:07:08.820 is in fact a sign of success. 00:07:09.945 --> 00:07:12.105 Matt Abrahams: I really appreciate that because that takes some of 00:07:12.105 --> 00:07:16.335 the pressure off and I am drawn to the language you use there. 00:07:16.335 --> 00:07:18.915 You said you wake up to. 00:07:19.445 --> 00:07:21.885 So it's an awareness that you're building. 00:07:21.885 --> 00:07:26.325 So when your mind wanders, you then sort of snap back to that moment of, oh, my 00:07:26.325 --> 00:07:29.960 mind was wandering, and instead of what I do, which is punish myself, what you're 00:07:29.960 --> 00:07:31.970 saying is, okay, now I'm focused again. 00:07:31.970 --> 00:07:33.280 There's an interesting learning there. 00:07:33.880 --> 00:07:35.750 And that to me is, is helpful. 00:07:35.930 --> 00:07:36.950 Dan Harris: That is the practice. 00:07:37.100 --> 00:07:38.240 Matt Abrahams: That is the practice. 00:07:38.240 --> 00:07:39.200 Dan Harris: That is the practice. 00:07:39.200 --> 00:07:42.980 It's not a, a hindrance or something gone wrong or like, uh, I'm 00:07:42.980 --> 00:07:45.200 gonna tell you how to deal with this problem in your meditation. 00:07:45.200 --> 00:07:46.820 No, that is the practice. 00:07:47.120 --> 00:07:51.900 And the waking up is the point because you are waking up to something fundamental, 00:07:51.900 --> 00:07:53.540 that you have all these wild thoughts. 00:07:53.600 --> 00:07:56.670 The mind is out of control, it's ridiculous, and you 00:07:56.670 --> 00:07:57.750 don't wanna be owned by it. 00:07:58.230 --> 00:08:01.200 And this waking up, starting again, waking up, starting 00:08:01.200 --> 00:08:02.940 again, does at least two things. 00:08:02.940 --> 00:08:06.360 One is, it gives you mindfulness, which is the self-awareness to not 00:08:06.360 --> 00:08:10.260 be yanked around by every random thought that pulses through your mind. 00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:14.490 And two, that practice of waking up, starting again, waking up, starting 00:08:14.490 --> 00:08:19.080 again, it's like a bicep curl for your brain in that it changes the part 00:08:19.080 --> 00:08:21.420 of the brain associated with focus. 00:08:21.900 --> 00:08:26.340 So in an age where our attention spans are under attack, you are rewiring that. 00:08:27.750 --> 00:08:28.800 Matt Abrahams: I really like that idea. 00:08:28.800 --> 00:08:32.700 So the benefit is not just the distance that you get from your thoughts. 00:08:32.790 --> 00:08:37.380 Uh, there's a very useful anxiety management technique that I often 00:08:37.380 --> 00:08:41.740 teach my students, which is just to say to yourself, this is me feeling 00:08:41.740 --> 00:08:45.560 nervous and giving yourself that little distance, and then you can do things. 00:08:45.560 --> 00:08:49.800 But in so doing, you're also strengthening the, the ability to focus. 00:08:50.620 --> 00:08:56.160 You've discussed the concept of responding versus reacting in the work that you do. 00:08:56.550 --> 00:08:59.220 I've learned about this distinction in the martial arts training 00:08:59.220 --> 00:09:00.390 that I've done over the years. 00:09:00.750 --> 00:09:04.140 Can you elaborate on the difference between responding and reacting in 00:09:04.140 --> 00:09:07.410 terms of how you see it, and then talk about what this can mean for how we 00:09:07.410 --> 00:09:09.630 interact with others or life in general? 00:09:10.020 --> 00:09:14.270 Dan Harris: Yeah, without mindfulness, without any self-awareness, without 00:09:14.270 --> 00:09:18.270 any distance from your thoughts and urges and emotions, you're, you're 00:09:18.270 --> 00:09:23.160 like a puppet controlled by the malevolent, puppeteer of your ego. 00:09:23.550 --> 00:09:28.860 Anything that happens in your mind, you get, anger arises and then you're 00:09:28.860 --> 00:09:33.030 fully engulfed by, you're in it and you have no distance from it. 00:09:33.030 --> 00:09:36.330 And then you say and do a bunch of stuff that you later regret, and 00:09:36.330 --> 00:09:38.340 then you direct the anger inwardly. 00:09:38.340 --> 00:09:40.090 I mean, we can live a whole lifetime in anger. 00:09:40.925 --> 00:09:44.105 That's on the extreme edge, but sadly not uncommon. 00:09:44.345 --> 00:09:47.435 Many of us, you know, we get angry and then we spend hours in it. 00:09:47.675 --> 00:09:51.365 But, you know, emotions will come and go of their own accord. 00:09:51.905 --> 00:09:53.225 So anger arises. 00:09:53.225 --> 00:09:57.704 It's not a monolith, it's a set of physiological and psychological 00:09:57.704 --> 00:10:02.084 conditions like a temporary coming together, meteorologically in your mind 00:10:02.084 --> 00:10:06.224 and body, and you can get interested in it from a mindful perspective. 00:10:06.255 --> 00:10:08.714 Oh yeah, my chest is buzzing, my ears are turning red. 00:10:09.045 --> 00:10:12.194 I'm having a starburst of self-righteous thoughts, or whatever it is. 00:10:13.185 --> 00:10:17.055 And you can let that come and go, and instead of acting it out 00:10:17.055 --> 00:10:21.689 reflexively, you can respond wisely on the other side, and that's a 00:10:21.689 --> 00:10:23.640 superpower available to all of us. 00:10:23.640 --> 00:10:24.449 It's a birthright. 00:10:24.449 --> 00:10:28.829 We have this ability to do this, but in the Western context, 00:10:28.829 --> 00:10:30.720 we're rarely taught how to do it. 00:10:30.930 --> 00:10:34.260 And so you can imagine how this would root down to the benefit of 00:10:34.260 --> 00:10:35.819 your interpersonal relationships. 00:10:36.150 --> 00:10:38.880 And again, you're not gonna be perfect at this, or at least I don't 00:10:38.880 --> 00:10:40.170 know anybody who's perfect at this. 00:10:40.620 --> 00:10:44.340 And in my case, I've gotten better, but I still, you know, if I haven't slept enough 00:10:44.340 --> 00:10:46.230 the night before, I can be more reactive. 00:10:46.530 --> 00:10:51.360 But now, you know, if I'm in a conversation and, and I feel the 00:10:51.360 --> 00:10:53.820 urge to say something that's gonna ruin the next forty-eight hours 00:10:53.820 --> 00:10:57.580 of my marriage, more often than not, I can watch it come and go. 00:10:58.979 --> 00:11:00.569 Matt Abrahams: Right, and that training helps you do that. 00:11:00.569 --> 00:11:04.469 You articulated well the experience I have with these two concepts where 00:11:04.469 --> 00:11:06.839 reacting literally means to act again. 00:11:06.839 --> 00:11:09.630 So you're carrying it with you, you're acting it out in your 00:11:09.630 --> 00:11:12.579 mind again, and responding is dealing with it in the moment. 00:11:12.979 --> 00:11:15.689 On your podcast, I've heard you discuss the intersection of 00:11:15.689 --> 00:11:17.250 mindfulness and productivity. 00:11:17.819 --> 00:11:21.000 Do you have any hacks or best practices you employ to increase 00:11:21.000 --> 00:11:24.479 your productivity that leverages the mindfulness that you train? 00:11:24.979 --> 00:11:26.750 Dan Harris: Yeah, so this is a counterintuitive hack. 00:11:27.170 --> 00:11:31.939 I was talking once to my meditation teacher, who's this incredible guy, 00:11:31.939 --> 00:11:36.020 Joseph Goldstein, about to turn eighty-one, and I've worked with him 00:11:36.020 --> 00:11:40.729 for, I don't know, fifteen years, sixteen years, and I was telling him 00:11:40.729 --> 00:11:44.030 how I kind of hurdle through my day. 00:11:44.060 --> 00:11:48.800 There's a kind of forward momentum, a toppling forward, checking things 00:11:48.800 --> 00:11:53.730 off my to-do list, and often while I'm doing creative work, I can feel 00:11:53.730 --> 00:11:55.710 kind of a swarm of bees in my chest. 00:11:55.710 --> 00:12:00.390 I'm nervous and, not all the time, but that, that conditioning runs deep in me, 00:12:00.870 --> 00:12:05.730 and there's like this inner clench that, that has to happen to get anything done. 00:12:06.330 --> 00:12:12.270 And Joseph, who likes to make fun of me, said, the good stuff 00:12:12.330 --> 00:12:13.650 doesn't come from the clench. 00:12:14.220 --> 00:12:19.814 That's just you being stupid, which, you know, he's absolutely right. 00:12:19.844 --> 00:12:28.395 The good ideas, the thoughtful responses, the solid, careful work doesn't come from 00:12:28.395 --> 00:12:32.745 rushing, doesn't come from clamping down and bulldozing through your problems. 00:12:32.775 --> 00:12:37.800 I still do this, but I've learned, with mindfulness, to notice, oh, yeah, yeah. 00:12:37.860 --> 00:12:39.150 I'm clenching internally. 00:12:39.240 --> 00:12:43.650 I'm rushing through this and I try to use that as a feedback, a kind of mindfulness 00:12:43.650 --> 00:12:48.690 bell to wake up so that, you know what, actually the counterintuitive productivity 00:12:48.690 --> 00:12:52.650 move right now might be to lie down on the ground for a couple of minutes. 00:12:52.680 --> 00:12:57.240 It might be to go outside and put my feet on the grass, or whatever it is. 00:12:57.660 --> 00:13:01.875 And again, this is counterintuitive because we believe we need to, and 00:13:01.875 --> 00:13:05.145 I have this in me in a deep way, that we need to squeeze every moment 00:13:05.145 --> 00:13:06.495 of productivity out of the day. 00:13:06.495 --> 00:13:09.345 But that actually is counterproductive in the long run. 00:13:09.915 --> 00:13:12.645 Matt Abrahams: Two things I heard you say there that I think are really important, 00:13:12.645 --> 00:13:15.855 for me personally, and hopefully the others listening in, is, is we have 00:13:15.855 --> 00:13:19.095 to pay attention to what's going on in our body and use it as a signal. 00:13:19.775 --> 00:13:23.985 It is very easy for me to bulldoze my way through those feelings. 00:13:23.985 --> 00:13:27.405 I'm tired, so I'm just gonna keep chugging, and listening to those feelings. 00:13:27.405 --> 00:13:32.490 And then the second is to be open to doing something that might not feel 00:13:32.490 --> 00:13:36.540 like the right thing to do, that opens up the opportunity for creativity, 00:13:36.540 --> 00:13:38.220 for inspiration, for connection. 00:13:38.790 --> 00:13:41.970 And a lot of us, myself included, get locked into this 00:13:41.970 --> 00:13:43.410 is what success looks like. 00:13:43.439 --> 00:13:46.350 This meeting needs to happen in this way at this time, and 00:13:46.350 --> 00:13:49.050 maybe you cancel the meeting or you take it outside or whatever. 00:13:49.050 --> 00:13:52.319 So listening to ourselves and then being open I think are really important. 00:13:52.319 --> 00:13:52.680 Dan Harris: Yes. 00:13:53.040 --> 00:13:54.780 That was good reflective listening. 00:13:54.840 --> 00:13:55.890 Yeah, you're absolutely right. 00:13:55.890 --> 00:13:59.069 And we are in a, again, this is another thing that we're not 00:13:59.069 --> 00:14:02.069 often taught in our culture, kind of just listening to the body. 00:14:02.189 --> 00:14:05.699 Matt Abrahams: And all of that comes from taking that beat and reflecting, 00:14:05.699 --> 00:14:07.230 and that's where mindfulness comes in. 00:14:07.630 --> 00:14:11.699 I'd like to switch gears away from mindfulness and meditation and dive into 00:14:11.699 --> 00:14:15.660 your expertise, uh, as somebody who is a reporter, as an interviewer, et cetera. 00:14:16.050 --> 00:14:17.790 Uh, you've certainly interviewed lots of people. 00:14:17.845 --> 00:14:22.285 Sometimes in very harrowing circumstances, can you share some insights into what 00:14:22.285 --> 00:14:26.215 makes for a good interview and any recommendations for what makes for good 00:14:26.275 --> 00:14:28.255 questions and answers in an interview? 00:14:28.915 --> 00:14:31.255 Dan Harris: I actually personally feel that I've gotten to be 00:14:31.255 --> 00:14:34.785 a much better interviewer in recent years as a podcast host. 00:14:35.465 --> 00:14:39.535 And one of the things that I've found that has boosted my ability to be a good 00:14:39.535 --> 00:14:41.655 interviewer is reflective listening. 00:14:42.415 --> 00:14:46.405 Which you were demonstrating earlier, which is just listening 00:14:47.025 --> 00:14:51.735 very carefully to what's being said and then giving the summary in 00:14:51.735 --> 00:14:54.225 your own words, often very briefly. 00:14:54.675 --> 00:14:59.925 And I found training that skill has forced me to listen much more closely. 00:15:00.495 --> 00:15:04.395 It's a service to the audience because I am summing up and 00:15:04.395 --> 00:15:06.615 often clarifying the answers. 00:15:06.885 --> 00:15:12.045 'Cause many of the people I interview are deep dharma practitioners, and often 00:15:12.045 --> 00:15:16.589 they're using terms that the audience may not know, so I'll clarify that, 00:15:16.650 --> 00:15:20.339 and then make sure that I understand the gist of what they're trying to say. 00:15:20.849 --> 00:15:23.459 And if I've got it wrong, they'll correct me, and then 00:15:23.459 --> 00:15:25.200 I will reflect the correction. 00:15:25.910 --> 00:15:30.630 And so this has really, I use this interpersonally too, this technique 00:15:30.660 --> 00:15:36.209 has revolutionized my interviewing skills and my interpersonal skills. 00:15:36.630 --> 00:15:39.380 And I would say, just to go back to the beginning of this interview, we talked 00:15:39.380 --> 00:15:40.949 about what do you do if you're nervous? 00:15:41.240 --> 00:15:45.645 Actually, if you're nervous for a big conversation, just going in with 00:15:45.645 --> 00:15:50.025 a tattoo on your arm to reflect, just reflect, reflect, reflect. 00:15:50.265 --> 00:15:53.535 It will give you the time to let your nervous system settle. 00:15:53.775 --> 00:15:58.365 It will really tenderize your interlocutor because people love 00:15:58.725 --> 00:16:00.325 to know that they've been heard. 00:16:00.745 --> 00:16:03.705 And then once that other person has, they feel like they've gotten 00:16:03.705 --> 00:16:05.265 it all out, you've reflected it. 00:16:05.505 --> 00:16:08.265 You might be relaxed and in the flow at this point. 00:16:08.265 --> 00:16:09.280 Then you can say what you need to say. 00:16:10.050 --> 00:16:14.190 Matt Abrahams: I really like the idea that listening deeply is a tool 00:16:14.190 --> 00:16:18.480 to relax so you can speak better, and that's really, really important. 00:16:18.870 --> 00:16:23.459 And certainly the mindfulness that you practice and teach is what's 00:16:23.459 --> 00:16:26.040 required to listen in a reflective way. 00:16:26.459 --> 00:16:30.360 I will often coach people who ask me, how can I become a better listener? 00:16:30.360 --> 00:16:33.900 I will say, listen to paraphrase, because when we listen to paraphrase, 00:16:33.900 --> 00:16:37.410 we listen for the bottom line in a way that's deeper, and as you 00:16:37.410 --> 00:16:41.790 said, it allows for more connection, which invites more information. 00:16:41.790 --> 00:16:46.470 So, great, great advice for any type of interview, be it just 00:16:46.500 --> 00:16:49.080 hanging out with a friend or meeting somebody for the first time. 00:16:49.650 --> 00:16:52.080 So before we end, I'd like to ask three questions of all my guests. 00:16:52.080 --> 00:16:54.870 One I create just for you, and then two, I've asked everybody 00:16:54.870 --> 00:16:55.800 who's ever been on the show. 00:16:55.800 --> 00:16:56.520 Are you up for that? 00:16:56.760 --> 00:16:57.090 Dan Harris: Sure. 00:16:58.080 --> 00:17:01.950 Matt Abrahams: So one of your superpowers in your communication is 00:17:02.030 --> 00:17:04.680 your use of analogies and language. 00:17:05.099 --> 00:17:07.275 I was keeping track of some of the things you said. 00:17:07.275 --> 00:17:12.405 You talked about puppeteers, biceps for the brain, swarm of bees in our belly. 00:17:12.615 --> 00:17:18.765 Are you consciously thinking about using tools like that to help people understand? 00:17:18.765 --> 00:17:22.395 Because you do a very good job on it, not just here in our interview, but 00:17:22.575 --> 00:17:26.985 in your writing and in the things that I've listened to you speaking on, how 00:17:26.985 --> 00:17:28.575 conscious of those things are you? 00:17:29.460 --> 00:17:30.540 Dan Harris: Well, thank you for saying that. 00:17:30.540 --> 00:17:31.230 I appreciate it. 00:17:31.350 --> 00:17:36.689 Very conscious, you know, with that, I, I am not a fully trained meditation 00:17:36.689 --> 00:17:42.540 teacher or a Buddhist master, or a qualified scientific researcher 00:17:42.540 --> 00:17:44.459 into areas of human flourishing. 00:17:44.459 --> 00:17:46.530 I don't have any real expertise. 00:17:47.189 --> 00:17:51.899 The only area where I have some expertise is popularizing these 00:17:52.020 --> 00:17:58.139 incredibly useful ideas for broad audiences and communicating it to them 00:17:58.139 --> 00:18:01.620 in a way that, first of all, engages them with some humor and usually 00:18:01.620 --> 00:18:03.270 an embarrassing story on my side. 00:18:03.600 --> 00:18:09.270 And then a very clear value proposition for them in their own lives. 00:18:09.419 --> 00:18:12.990 And then modeling the benefits of that, uh, for them. 00:18:13.230 --> 00:18:17.610 And so, yeah, I'm obsessed with this idea of like, how can I come up with 00:18:17.610 --> 00:18:23.010 ways to engage people in these ideas that, I think, can massively improve 00:18:23.280 --> 00:18:27.270 an individual human life, and frankly, I think could be very valuable for, 00:18:27.300 --> 00:18:28.805 you know, the species writ large. 00:18:29.520 --> 00:18:32.460 Matt Abrahams: It really does my heart well, that you spend time thinking about 00:18:32.460 --> 00:18:36.690 this, and I think everybody listening, if you listen to what Dan has done and 00:18:36.690 --> 00:18:41.070 how he does it, the power of analogies to stick in someone's mind and to help 00:18:41.070 --> 00:18:44.760 you understand something that might not quite be as accessible if it were 00:18:44.760 --> 00:18:49.320 explained in a technical way, but using analogy, using descriptive words, 00:18:49.440 --> 00:18:52.050 makes it more approachable and you do a great job of role modeling that. 00:18:52.645 --> 00:18:53.095 Dan Harris: Thanks. 00:18:53.215 --> 00:18:59.635 You know, people in every industry learn a kind of lingo that is off-putting 00:18:59.635 --> 00:19:02.125 to outsiders, even though they don't know that that's what's happening. 00:19:02.125 --> 00:19:04.465 So that happens in meditation or dharma circles. 00:19:04.765 --> 00:19:07.345 It happens in scientific psychological research. 00:19:07.375 --> 00:19:08.365 It happens in the news. 00:19:08.365 --> 00:19:11.725 We have our own weird way of talking as if like we're kind of 00:19:11.725 --> 00:19:13.015 robots or something like that. 00:19:13.045 --> 00:19:18.565 And if you can shatter that and start talking in a way that actually 00:19:18.565 --> 00:19:20.605 reaches people, it's pretty valuable. 00:19:21.225 --> 00:19:21.945 Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. 00:19:21.945 --> 00:19:25.425 The power of translation and accessibility is huge. 00:19:25.905 --> 00:19:27.045 Let me ask the second question. 00:19:27.045 --> 00:19:30.045 Who is a communicator that you admire and why? 00:19:30.945 --> 00:19:34.755 Dan Harris: The name that just comes to mind is Barack Obama. 00:19:34.755 --> 00:19:40.785 Not only for his oratorical skills, but also often through his use of humor. 00:19:40.965 --> 00:19:44.295 Another, perhaps the most powerful moment of communication I've ever 00:19:44.535 --> 00:19:50.325 seen from him is when he sang, poorly, at a black church where a gunman had 00:19:50.325 --> 00:19:52.665 come in and killed a bunch of people. 00:19:52.695 --> 00:19:56.505 He sang Amazing Grace while speaking to the church. 00:19:56.595 --> 00:20:00.165 I think it was made even more powerful by the fact that he doesn't sing well. 00:20:00.600 --> 00:20:04.740 So it took a lot of gumption to do that, and it was very moving and, 00:20:04.860 --> 00:20:08.840 yeah, so I think as a one to many communicator, he is in his own league. 00:20:09.300 --> 00:20:09.690 Matt Abrahams: Yeah. 00:20:09.780 --> 00:20:13.110 He has often mentioned for many characteristics, nobody has brought up the 00:20:13.110 --> 00:20:16.929 gumption and willingness to do something from the heart that might be embarrassing. 00:20:17.240 --> 00:20:20.010 I appreciate you adding that richness to his description. 00:20:20.760 --> 00:20:24.659 My final question for you, Dan, what are the first three ingredients that go 00:20:24.659 --> 00:20:27.360 into a successful communication recipe? 00:20:27.780 --> 00:20:28.590 Dan Harris: Clarity of message. 00:20:30.195 --> 00:20:33.915 Warmth for yourself and the other person, and listening. 00:20:34.455 --> 00:20:36.615 Matt Abrahams: Clarity, warmth, and listening. 00:20:36.675 --> 00:20:40.665 We've talked about, uh, all of these to some extent, but the one 00:20:40.665 --> 00:20:45.254 thing I'd like to just dive a little deeper in, warmth for self and other. 00:20:45.254 --> 00:20:48.345 We've talked about for other, talk about warmth for self. 00:20:49.304 --> 00:20:53.655 Dan Harris: If you're going to try to boost your warmth quotient, your ability 00:20:53.655 --> 00:20:57.750 to love, to connect, to be compassionate, you can't leave yourself out. 00:20:58.320 --> 00:21:02.820 Love or warmth or whatever you want to call it, is an omnidirectional force. 00:21:03.270 --> 00:21:07.350 And I'm not saying that you need to love yourself before you can love other people. 00:21:07.350 --> 00:21:12.330 I think that we all know many people who are really generous and kind 00:21:12.330 --> 00:21:15.360 and yet quite cruel to themselves, but it, it's harder to do if you're 00:21:15.360 --> 00:21:16.709 constantly kicking your own ass. 00:21:17.370 --> 00:21:23.280 And it's easier to do if you can have a balmier inner climate because 00:21:23.280 --> 00:21:26.580 you're less defensive, you're more available, you're less stuck in your 00:21:26.580 --> 00:21:31.950 own head, and that improves the quality of your relationships, which will 00:21:31.950 --> 00:21:34.380 in turn improve your inner weather. 00:21:34.380 --> 00:21:38.895 Because your relationships are the most important aspect of your 00:21:38.895 --> 00:21:42.705 happiness, and then your relationships will improve, and then your inner 00:21:42.705 --> 00:21:43.695 weather will get even better. 00:21:43.695 --> 00:21:46.215 And that is what I call the cheesy upward spiral. 00:21:46.215 --> 00:21:50.505 And that's what you wanna be on, as opposed to the, the opposite, which 00:21:50.505 --> 00:21:53.685 a friend of mine calls the toilet vortex, where you're just, you know, 00:21:53.685 --> 00:21:56.125 mean to yourself and then you take it out on other people, and then 00:21:56.125 --> 00:21:58.095 you're mean to yourself even more. 00:21:58.095 --> 00:21:58.935 And down you go. 00:21:59.565 --> 00:22:03.660 Matt Abrahams: The connection we have with people starts with ourselves and 00:22:03.690 --> 00:22:07.140 it's bidirectional and the direction you're talking about is the upward spiral. 00:22:07.380 --> 00:22:07.980 Dan, thank you. 00:22:07.980 --> 00:22:09.060 This was very enlightening. 00:22:09.060 --> 00:22:13.380 We covered a broad range of topics, but all fundamentally come down to this notion 00:22:13.380 --> 00:22:18.060 of being present, making sure you're responding and taking time for yourself 00:22:18.060 --> 00:22:19.590 so you can be available for others. 00:22:19.830 --> 00:22:20.700 Really appreciate it. 00:22:20.700 --> 00:22:21.295 Thank you so much. 00:22:21.515 --> 00:22:22.470 Dan Harris: Thanks for having me. 00:22:23.550 --> 00:22:25.380 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of 00:22:25.380 --> 00:22:27.570 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:22:27.930 --> 00:22:30.750 To learn more about happiness and wellbeing, please listen to 00:22:30.750 --> 00:22:35.260 our miniseries on these topics in episodes 179 through 182. 00:22:36.300 --> 00:22:39.630 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, 00:22:39.820 --> 00:22:42.380 Aech Ashe, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:22:42.690 --> 00:22:44.280 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:22:44.670 --> 00:22:46.560 With thanks to Podium Podcast Company. 00:22:47.280 --> 00:22:50.699 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:53.189 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:22:53.639 --> 00:22:56.189 Also follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram. 00:22:56.639 --> 00:23:00.840 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language 00:23:00.840 --> 00:23:02.730 learning content, and our newsletter. 00:23:03.389 --> 00:23:07.199 Please consider our premium offering for extended Deep Thinks episodes, 00:23:07.649 --> 00:23:13.889 AMAs, Ask Matt Anythings, and much more at fastersmarter.io/premium.