Show Notes
Intro: Boz comes into some unexpected money, the "prudent reserve", validation, martyrs, King Babies, passive aggression vs aggressive aggression,
Mommy Dead and Dearest,
Munchausen by proxyLet Me Run This By You: the pervasive and dangerous bias against medication.
Interview: We talk to
Rollo Romig about a terrible one year theatre school experience, being inspired by his high school teacher (who also taught
Keegan-Michael Key and
Kristin Bell) stumbling around to find your talents, "beware the psychic vultures", the cult of youth and the myth of early success as being more common than it really is, finding his truth as a writer, wading through positive feedback to find the truth, Drama Club as a repository for misfits, writing about India.
TRANSCRIPT:
Speaker 1 (
00:00:08):
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
I'm Jen Bosworth -Ramirez
Gina Pulice.
and I'm Gina Pulice.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.
Gina Pulice.
20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous Yet?
Network is only good today.
Your network is always good in my mind. You know, it could be because we got 18 inches of snow last night. Well, total, there's a total of, um, Oh my God. 18 inches at midway airport, which I'm not going to. So I don't care, but we're all just going to be crushed under the weight of, of like just our lives. I think that's very accurate, but you know, but on a good note, so, um, we came into, this is so crazy how this happens and I sh I won't say their names, but, um, we, we came anyway, someone said to us, where are you? A relative? Said, where are you? Are you still in the Midwest? Are you in California? Because we are, have, um, we're stakeholders in a company. And they said, because we sent you a check for $18,000, do you, would you like to get it? Wait, wait, wait.
So, so miles, the life is very random. It's so random. So miles we have a stake in, uh, what I believe is a timber company is a timber it's timber. So we have timber stocks or something. I look remember how you don't know how the stock market works. I don't know how this works. There's trees somewhere that I own, which is really bad because who owns the trees, but we do. And, um, or parts of trees, I suppose we own a certain branches anyway. Um, so we just got some kind of dividends situation and I just fell on the bed when I heard. Cause that's wonderful. That's amazing. But what, like, it's something that was willing to you. Oh, so family is miles, nothing to do with me. This is all miles, which is interesting because my, my mom passed away obviously and she left me some dough.
And so I always thought my family was the, was the high end, mighty family. And now miles is stepping in to say, he said, you didn't marry so bad. Did you? I said, so does he? And he had no, no idea, no clue. Oh. And they couldn't find you cause they're trying to send it to California. Oh my God. So wait. So, so we have a check coming to, um, how exciting, it's exciting. We're going to put it in our prudent reserve, which is our savings. We call our savings per reserve. Okay. That like a financial
Term or is that just what you guys like?
I think that's like a, uh, actually a 12 step term so that we use that for within the prudent reserve. So we're putting it in the prudent reserve.
Uh, so that's not as fun as life you're going to get to go buy something that you want. Yeah.
I mean that, you know, if we run into trouble, if I don't, I mean, I'm going to get a gig, we're going to get it. There's going to be money soon. But if I don't, yeah,
Yeah. Reserved, you got to have a prude and reserved. I like that term a prudent reserve. So does that also apply like interpersonally, like you're supposed to have a prudent reserve. Okay. It's like a boundaries sort of thing.
It's like boundaries and it's like, um, um, make you feel solvent and like it, you, you can take care of yourself, kind of like that you're independently taking care of yourself self.
Okay. That makes so much sense because I think a lot of what drives people's internal panic and hysteria and makes them turn to things like alcohol and drugs is this out of control, feeling this, you know, this feeling of lack of safety. And it's obviously ironic because like there's nothing that the thing that makes you safe about taking drugs or drinking, but yeah. People, yeah. That's, I love that proof reserve.
The other thing I always think about too, with drugs and alcohol and stuff and, and whenever, so, so, uh, I, I would say that, you know, I have issues with anxiety and whenever I would smoke cigarettes or drink alcohol, it would make it worse. And yet that's what I would turn to. And so it is sort of like maybe we're sabotaging or I was sabotaging to create a crisis so that I could actually deal with the root anxiety. I mean, that's what I think when I have a panic attack, like if I'm on a plane and I, and I hate to fly and I, and I, and I really go for it and give, and I can really participate in my own panic. And if I choose to really go for it and participate and have a full panic attack, the result is always that I have to care for myself and an extreme level. So I become very, like, it forces me all hands on deck internal resources to really care for myself, meaning self-talk meaning. So it's like, Oh, if I do that on purpose, like on purpose so that I can get the care, right?
Because otherwise you feel like it's indulgent and you don't do,
And I don't deserve it. And I think that in my house, just really starting in psychological this morning, uh, it, my house, you had to be definitely ill to stay home from school. And you had to have a huge crisis in order for my mother and father, but mostly my mom to pay attention and to say, Oh, something's wrong,
Dude. That I, as a parent, I can say, I understand why that happens. It's something you really have to like actively work against, because I noticed my kids doing that know that certain physical things are certain. And so like, the trick is always like, okay, so I, right now you're telling me this, so I don't want to invalidate it, but I know that the reason you're telling me this is because I haven't validated you in some other way and you have to like backtrack and it's, it's very hard to do. And, and yeah. And because also when people are pressed and busy and whatever, it's only the current crisis that takes the attention.
It's so true to look at, like in retrospect and within therapy to look at what my mom was doing. Like she was managing a whole household because my father was an apt. I mean, he, he tried, but he was so limited. So she was managing the household a full-time job, two children that were like the same age and she couldn't ask for help. Cause she was, she felt like this immigrant thing of like, no way you asked for help. So of course she's not going to be like,
Hey, how's everybody doing? I'm checking it. Right. Right. So I always kind of wondered something about your parents' relationship. Your mother was so capable and such a Dewar. I mean, maybe, maybe that's the whole answer. Why? But like, why did she marry somebody who you've referred to, which I love this term as a King bait.
Yeah. So he, my dad was like the definition, especially since he was six, six, nine, and like 300 pounds. So like it just the King baby. So I think she married him to get out of her family originally to get out of her parents' house. Okay. And she saw him as a capable American seriously, like a capable white dude and said, Oh, but that was not who he was, but that's what she projected onto him. I don't think my father was ever like someone who pretended to be something he wasn't. I think she wanted to see that. And then what happened was she really got off on taking him less than my mom. They did this dance where she felt so great. And I noticed I do this with miles too. Like I feel so I can feel so self-righteous when I can do something faster or better than he can that he's, he's staring at me. That's hilarious.
What's love miles with love,
But that, that I can do the same thing where it's like, no, I'm the doer I'm so capable. I'm so awesome. And, and that makes another person less than, and I think in order, my mom sort of felt like in order to feel worthy, she had to make him feel less than worthy
Was so was she kind of a murder? Yeah.
My mother was the martyr of all martyrs. She was like a silent martyr though. So she would be like, you know, muttering under her breath about how she had to do everything. Um, muttering about how, Oh, which to me, someone who is passive aggressive, it, it triggers in me a rage, like no other rage.
Yeah. Yeah. Just, just be out with it. Just yeah. Yeah.
Aggressive is holding people hostage. And I find that so, so intolerable
And what's so crazy about it is the PR person, because I have a passive aggressive streak in me, the, when you're doing it, you feel that you, you convince yourself that you are prevent, you are, um, protecting somebody from your rage when really you're just doing it in the like sneakiest most underhanded and therefore the most hard to, um, it's hard to name it, right? Like if somebody comes and slaps you in the face, it's like, okay, well, and everybody saw you slapped me in the face. This is an act of rage. When somebody, uh, as my mother would say drinks at you or, or, or does a nice thing for you at you, you know, with, with resentment, it's harder. It's much harder to tease apart. Like, wait, why don't, if you're doing this nice thing for me, why does it feel so bad?
I had a roommate who was a Scorpio. So I have a Scorpio problem. Like we've talked about astrology last time. And I do notice that Scorpio women, I have a very hard time with, I don't know what it is, but it happened to be that in LA my sec, third roommate was a Scorpio woman who I found to be the most biting, passive, aggressive, cold person. Now I was not in a good place either, so I'm not, but I did not do well with her. She was so passive aggressive that she would do this. This is, and I still clearly have a lot of rage and I would love to let her have it. I never said anything I would decorate. And she would take my stuff down. And that's because she didn't like the way it looked, but she would say,
Is that a passive?
Well, she would never say anything about it. So, so she, so I would put up a mirror that I got in Mexico and I would notice that it would be taken down and put on my bed. Oh, wow.
Yeah. I feel like that's not that passive though. I kind of feel like the passive aggressive thing would be, I mean, yeah. It would have been more truthful for her to just say like, I really don't like your mirror, but I feel like I'm more passive aggressive thing would be like, if she threw it, threw her body into the wall so that the mirror fell down and said, uh, I'm so sorry about your mirror broke. Yeah. Maybe this is just me being like Ninja level pass.
That is really intense because that also can inflict harm on oneself too, in order to not have to be
Well, what a better, what better way is to be passive aggressive than to inflict harm on to yourself?
It's just aggressive. But she would also, she told me about, she told me about her Pat, her last roommate that she had before, or a couple of roommates before me, where he would never do the dishes, so his dishes. So she stopped stacked them up and put them under his bed.
Okay. Well see. Yeah. Okay. I get what you're saying. Yeah. It's it's maybe we need a third designation. That's like, um, um, yeah. Yes. Snaky aggression, surreptitious aggression,
Like, like, like, like attacking a GRA like snaky and, but biting. It was so she was, I got to say she was horrible. And when, when I have so much, Oh, I want to write her a letter so bad when I left, when my father died and I left LA and I, and I, I, she was like, I'm sorry, your dad died, but I need to know if you're going to pay rent for the, this was like a week after he died. And I said, I don't give a what you do. Here's the money for the rest of the year, like Lee meal, that kind of thing. And so anyway, the point is she was a Scorpio. And since then, I, I do have a I'm afraid of Scorpio women.
Okay. How come you never did feel like you could write her a letter or I think I was afraid
That like, the problem was me and that like, if I had been stronger or not, um, I thought that I had done something terribly wrong because I go into this. Oh, I I'm so, so terrible kind of a thing. At least back then, you know, I was 30 and it was times and things were really bad with my family and stuff. So I don't know, but I I'm, if I ever run into her, it's going to be interesting. Cause she lives, she still lives in the same apartment. We lived in with her husband and, and um, her husband had hurt and their child. And so she's still there and I'm secretly hoping I run into her so I can just let her have it.
So that way you want, you want to let her have it versus, okay. Yeah. I just want to let her, have it be like, what was wrong with you? Yes. So cool than a horrible to me. Like
If I would hang a Halloween decoration beads, she would
Say, well, I might not have done it that
Way. I might have done it this way.
Oh my God. And it probably, it probably didn't even track with like, she didn't actually like it, it was probably just anything that you, whatever put up there,
You wanted to live alone. So she needed to live alone and do her own thing. She didn't need a roommate. She, she hated, she hated all roommates, apparently so, but I, I anyway, uh,
Financially. And so then she just sort of took it out on you. She acted
Thus the passive aggressive slash really snaky aggressive.
Yeah. We've got to think about what that third term could be. Cause there is like a middle ground between, because the thing about really good meeting, artful, whatever passive aggression is, it can take a long time to realize. And it took me a lot. I have a person in my life is extremely passive aggressive and it, and what would happen for years is like this person is doing and saying things that seem like they should be positive, but it always has the effect of making me feel terrible.
That is a real, that is the art form at its finest. Yes you are. You are
Right. Yes. And so it took a great number of years for me to be like, okay, I'm not crazy when I feel bad when this person does this, it's not because I like just don't want to accept anything from them or I don't want to find any good in them because I actually really liked finding the good in people. And I prefer to have relationships with people that, that are positive and friends it's and it's, it's it, you, you just know it when you feel it, you just get around a certain type of person and you're like, huh, this feeling is familiar. You're handing me a plate of cookies, but it feels like what you're saying is why don't you eat some more cookies fatso.
Yeah. Right, right. It's that is, I think that's, I mean that the people that are the most sort of, um, uh, adapt and really, um, good at that are borderline people, right. Or no narcissist or something. And I think this woman that was just straight up cold and mean, and she was more of a surgical strike, passive aggressive. And it, it was very clear when it happened. She was obvious about it. And what you're talking about is a real subtle sort of pathology of like,
I'm talking about the kind of thing that you say to your friend, let me run this by you and you tell them and they go, well, that sounds, I mean, that sounds nice. That doesn't, or that, that sounds neutral. Even validate it. I spend so many years being like, it's me, it's just me. There's something wrong with me. I cannot accept this person's love. But it was like clockwork. Every time I interacted with this person, it was the same exact feeling of like you're or sometimes not. Sometimes the feeling would be like, Oh, okay. Actually what it would often be is I'd be dreading having an interaction and then I'd have the interaction and it would be lovely. And I'd say to myself, you, why what's wrong with you? Why, why have you been, you know, in your mind, like really be rating this person or criticizing them and that it would go on like that for a bit.
And then it would turn and then I would start to feel bad again. And I'd be like, okay, this is that old familiar feeling. But then oftentimes I only had one other person in my life who, who saw what I saw. Um, but mostly people were like, she, and I think it's just, you know, I think it's just, I think this person is being, I think this person is trying to show you. They care. I think this, and it never felt that way. And I, it took, I'm going to say 20 to get vindicated for at least one other person to say, Oh yeah, you're right. That's that's, that's, that's not good. That's good. Wow. That's an expert that is a unlocked expert level path. And that's, that's why it's hard for me to identify a lot of things as passive because I'm like, Oh no, no, no, no. I know the master of this, what you're talking about is just an. Barely concealed.
Assholery right. Yeah. Oh my gosh. That is crazy sick. Yeah. And that is some like slow poisoning when people slow poison people, you know, and true crime. I watch a lot of that. Blue Prussian is a Prussian. Blue is a, is a kind of, um, poison. I just watched a special on it, um, where it takes forever to kill someone, but it's debilitating and longterm. Oh. And you gotta be a special kind of person to kill someone that way.
Did you, did you get into the mommy dead and dearest documentary? No. What does that O M G I don't know. I've never even heard of that. Okay. It's, it's a, it was a case of Munchhausen's by proxy. This woman was, um, had her daughter in a wheelchair, had her getting chemotherapy. This is the part that I don't really understand. I don't understand how this person convinced doctors, that her daughter had chemotherapy and needed radiation when she didn't have cancer. I think, I think that's what she did. She, if it wasn't that it was like up close, just a host of, I want to say like surgeries and medical interventions and told this daughter that she had, the starter believed that she couldn't walk. And I wish, I wish it was more fresh in my mind. I didn't make a movie about it with Patricia Arquette. I don't know. I saw a documentary at that. They might've made a movie about it with pressure. Um, because what ended up happening is the daughter. Um, I think, I think became online friends with a boy who became her boyfriend who came to visit her in real life. And, uh, and the two of them together figured out that this was all a lie and they killed each other.
You have it with Patricia Arquette is the mom. And I didn't see that either, but it's supposedly, so they kill her. They, they fist, yeah.
She be in jail right now for that. She'd be in jail, but she feels she's figured it all out. This daughter she's figure her name is something like Rose growers or Rose or gypsy, gypsy Rose, gypsy Rose, which is another crazy thing about gypsy RoseLee. But anyway, uh, yeah, she's still in jail. She's going to get out and she's, and it's all happy. Oh, the heartbreak of all heartbreaks too, to find out that your mother
It's trying to kill you by making one, making you crazy.
She could have special treatment because it's the reason that people do that is that they get special treatment for being the caregiver. She had all these like, uh, you know, Make-A-Wish foundation. They, they got to whatever, go behind the scenes at Disney or meet Brad Pitt or whatever it was. I mean, it's so sad. And so then you want to go back and be like, okay, but what happened to her that made her feel that this was the only way that she could
Get love? We need a real flashback scene in there. Yeah,
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That is, Oh yeah. Oh, you got to watch it. Mommy. Dead and dearest. It's called. I'm sure you could see it on YouTube. I will watch it. And you never watched the Paris Hilton one, right? Oh, she's too skinny. Yeah. Okay. She's too skinny. And then I watched the, uh, Britney Spears, right. It was only an hour long. Um, favorite Britain. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not totally, I don't I'm I'm not taking sides in that because we don't, we can't know what she was going through, you know, in terms of her mental health. I mean, both things could be true. She could be, uh, quite mental ill, mentally ill and need, uh, a conservator and her dad could be trying to cheat her out of money.
That's what I think went on. And I, that happened in Amy Winehouse, this case too, where
That was a scum bucket and she was out of control. So I think,
And situation with Brittany as well. Now, now, is there sexism and weirdness involved? Yes. And is it like if, if she was a boy, would that have, I don't know, but I can definitely say that there were S I remember when she did the whole shave her head and beat a car with an umbrella and thinking to myself in LA, I lived in LA at the time, I think. And I was like, Oh, she's, she's very mentally ill.
She's very mentally ill. There's, there's, there's, there's no question about it. And one of the things that I can't remember, actually, if it was in this documentary, but it made me think in any case of something I want to run by you. Well, one of the things that you hear people say in situations like that a lot is, and they'd just had a medicated to the gills and, you know, there's this aspersion that gets cast about taking medication. And it seems to extend even to people who are so obviously in great need of taking medication and there's this, um, group, uh, consciousness aware, or I guess it's not really consciousness, but it think it thinks it's group consciousness about taking meds.
It's just like the illusion. It's a group delusion
That the goal in life, no matter what your problem is, is to not take meds. And at first I thought, okay, well, this is just because people are anti psychiatry, but it's something more than that because it's like, well, what, what is the problem with taking meds? Like, I can understand it if it's, you don't want to take too many meds. If you have liver problems, you know, it's hard on your liver to take meds, but like for your average person, what's the D I don't get what the downside is.
And there is, I totally agree. And there is, especially since being on a heart med, people are like, well, will you get off the meds? And I'm like, let me explain something to you. I don't give a. If I ever get off the meds, they're the mentor helping my heart even talking is if it's a weakness to be on a med. And it's like, well, if you lose enough weight, you can get off your blood pressure meds, which, okay, that's fine. But you may still be skinny as hell and have high blood pressure, so that you're on your med. And then what do you do then? You feel terrible that you, you know, that you tried everything and you still on the blood pressure medication, or like, I it's, there's such a judgment about medication. It's really,
There is such a judgment about it. And, and, and, and I want to say like, okay, well, we know what it's like when there's no meds, that, that, that was like, you know, 150 years ago, and people just died. People like you who had an, an event or an incident or whatever, they just started, you know? And, and people probably didn't even know what, what, what the cause of death was right there. Our age right now, 45 was considered like old, old. Um, the other thing is like, I find that a lot of the people who are anti meds, um, are really pro supplements, stuff like this. And it's like, okay, but that, you're just taking something for your, that's the same thing that you say that you're against,
Because there's a, it must be a whole consumerism and a, a thing where supplements is good meds, bad. And like, supplements could kill you. My doctor was telling me that, like, you can overdose so easily on a lot of these supplements and some Chinese herbs too, that people are like, it's just a Chinese herb. And they're like, yeah, but you take it in mass quantities and your heart's going to stop. And it's an upper or whatever it is, herbs are. So I know, you know, people that refuse to take an ibuprofen, but medicate the hell out of themselves with melatonin and weed. Now you're mixing things, your, but they will say, but it's natural. I'm like you're going to die a natural death, which is a death from too much melatonin and too much leave. So is that what you want on your tombstone? She died a natural death of melatonin and weed,
But that's what it is. It does seem to be a, like a contest. It must tie into this whole frontier and American pull yourself up. Like, I think that must be the bootstraps phenomenon that people say, well, you, you know, you're, you're only really winning at life. If you're healthy and, and sane and balanced, and you didn't have to take a pill.
Yeah. And you live to 104 and you, you without medication. And, you know, and, but then we, at the same time, we really applaud there's something in the American spirit, too, that applauds 104 year olds that say, Oh, I got this old by drinking and by drinking and smoking cigarettes and take and smoking cigars and drinking tequila. And then we're like, awesome,
Dude, it's just genetics. I mean, that, that, you know, that that's like the answer, the answer to so many of these things is talking to people who, who have these wacko points of view. It's like, okay, but you don't understand science. So if you understood science, you wouldn't have this point of view, a and B, it's just genetics. You're fat, you're ugly. You have heart problems. You have, uh, diabetes, you have it. That's just your genetics. It's not your fault. You ain't born this way.
I, I really loved how they were, like I said, like, look, if I were really skinny, would this be happening? And they're like, probably, but you know, it can't help to lose weight because we should all be around, you know, America's too, too fat for our organs. But so, but they weren't shaming in any way. So I think doctors are starting to get it where it's like, the shame doesn't even work. And so they're like a lot of it's genetics. That's what he said. He was like, you know, your dad had arrhythmia, okay. Your mom was anxious and probably had, you know, issues of okay. You know? So anyway, that makes you feel better because when, once you start shaming yourself, nothing will change. You'll just go and eat the Popeye's chicken and be like F it
That's right. And the day that I learned this is well before Amazon bought whole foods. But the day that I learned that the whole foods, CEO was some terrible piece of guy who doesn't really care about you. He just found a way to make a buck off of the wellness groupies. I was like, okay. Yeah, you don't buy into an ideology of the, anything that's a one size fits all. Like nobody should be on meds or nobody should be
[inaudible] organics all the time. I mean, I'm like, you know, I don't know. It's anytime you're right. It's an all or nothing situation you're in real trouble because when that fails, or when you are the exception to that, then what do you do when you've eaten perfectly your whole life? And you dropped out of a heart attack and people don't like that, it's a control thing. Right? It's so grueling. It's like, if you just do the right thing and eat the right thing and are skinny and you look the right way, you're going to just, everything's going to be fine. And that's just not the truth. We're, we're, we're all going to go. And some of us are going to go at re in really weird, horrible, scary ways. And some of us will be 104. And just like, you know,
Yeah, I'm interested. Do you know about this, uh, football player who just died yesterday? Um, one of the, um, one of the Tampa Buccaneers died and, um, they're saying his, the cause of death is being investigated, but he died in a hotel. So we know what he did. He either owed deed or he killed himself. Right. And the second I read this, I thought, Oh, I know exactly what I mean. We'll see. But I felt one possible version of this story. He works his whole life. He trains as an athlete. He makes it into the NFL. He becomes a successful wide receiver. He makes lots of money. He was a great philanthropist. He was a great, he was 38 years old. So kind of old for the NFL. He was a great mentor to many young football players. I bet you, his life's ambition was to win the super bowl and he did it.
And then he won the super bowl and he said, I still feel like a piece of. Yup. Yup. And he died in a Homewood suites in some town in Florida. So I hope, I hope if this was a suicide or an ODI. I hope we don't find later that people were encouraging him to get off his psych meds. Right. Right. Because that's what, that's where these stories usually end up going. It's not this happy ending that people try to get you to believe that your life is going to be better if you just do everything in the natural way. No. Right. And I, I think like we talk about on this podcast a lot where like, if you and I had quote, made it big as youngsters, trouble, trouble, trouble, trouble, I would have been like, Oh, so now I've been reinforced that all is good. And I should be happy at 24 and I'm skinny and happy. And why am I so miserable? And let me go sabotage my life and kill myself. Like, absolutely. Absolutely.
Absolutely. So, uh, depending on the podcast, we had the lovely Rollo. Romig originally from Detroit and he lives in New York city and he left the theater school and he became a brilliant writer. Maybe he always was, but now he writes for the New York magazine, the new Yorker he teaches. So please welcome the very talented Rollo Romig sounds familiar. Congratulations.
You survived theater school And, and, and I don't know your story, but I remember it as being not great.
Yeah.
So tell us about it. I want to hear
About, I had fun with Jen. Yes. She's great.
I was getting out of my misery, uh, sooner rather than later that, um, you know, it's funny. I don't know if any, do any other theater contributors even do that anymore? Uh, no. That was odd. Even for DePaul to do it, those kinds of unusual right. Going into it, like, I don't think I even fully registered that going into it, that this was a pretty hardcore restriction, you know? Like how many people did they cut? Like ha ha half the guys are left.
Well, I can't figure out, I can't totally narrow in on how many people were there on day one, but we graduated with like 22
With like 22. Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah. I can't remember how many people started off there, but the, um, uh, maybe they cut half, like by the end or was there only a cut after the end of the first year or
Second year. And actually we've talked to somebody who strangely did get cut after the third year.
I didn't really take into account that reality. I just figured it, that kind of like 18 year old way. That's just like, eh, I got it. It'll be fine. I'm going to, I'm going to swing and it's going to be great. And, um, I never really thought through like, uh, at least even being mentally prepared for the fact that it might not work, you know, and also just like my whole attitude towards going to a conservatory was just like, eh, this is what I want to do. So I should go to the best school and the best school equal conservatory. And, uh, and I, and I, it just wasn't like, definitely was not a great considered choice, you know, in retrospect. Um, but, um, but yeah, so, but for me, it was like, it was clear from the beginning I was out of my league and I was, and I didn't want that to be true.
And I kept hoping that I was wrong, but like, you know, I got into theater like almost by default because it was the first thing that I really enjoy doing. And that I seem like I was good at, um, both at the same time. And, uh, like I was good at math, but I hated math. I didn't. Um, and, uh, so, so that was just what I went for, but you know, my school, my high school had like 300 students in it. And so, yeah, I did really well in the high school I bar, you know, was a very like big fish in a small pond scenario. And so, but then on the other hand, the weird thing was like the drama teacher at my high school was really gung ho and she treated us like professionals and she treated us, like we were all going to go into the theater, even though it was weird, it was not performing arts school. It was just like your normal sort of like Catholic high school. But she was like in her own universe where she was like, no, when you're in my shows, you are at a performing arts.
Wow. She was waiting for Guffman. She was Christopher guest.
She was wonderful, you know, and she, and the funny thing is like, there were students from my school who became very successful, um, in this tiny school. So like a, a couple of years older than me, uh, was, uh, Keegan Michael Key.
Oh.
He said before that she was, and I knew him well at the time. And she said before that, uh, that, uh, I mean, he, he said before that she was like the formative influence, like she's the one who got, Uh, uh, music and drama teacher. And so, and he was really encouraging to me too, you know, like I remember like when he was already in drama school, I think at the university of Detroit, and I remember like visiting him there, he showed me around and he was great. And like, you know, he kind of made me, I don't want to blame him, but he did make me kind of feel like,
Could do it.
And also, uh, uh, I, um, uh, let's see a few years after, uh, maybe four years after me in the same high school as Kristen bell. Um,
Yeah, I'm in this
Tiny high school. I don't know her not to be Mariah Carey about it, but like I never, I just never met her cause she's like younger enough that I, but, um, uh, but my sister, my younger sister knew her,
But
Anyway, so I went and man, she made it, so this teacher made it so exciting to like, um, you know, she made us feel like what we were doing was the most important thing in the world. And she had really high standards. Like I remember the first show that I was in with her when I was a sophomore was South Pacific. And it was like the night before we opened. And she was really unhappy with the level of focus coming from the chorus. She was enraged about it. And she started screaming. We were in the, like in the gym, which had been made in the auditorium, you know, it was all set up with folding chairs and everything already. We were ready to go and she just like lost it. And she just started screaming at us in the gym, like screaming at the chorus.
So like, what are you doing? The show starts tomorrow.
And while she's yelling, she's picking
Up metal over her head and just shucking them across the room or they're flying into other folding chairs
If he does this over and over. And like, yeah. And I remember some of the parents were like, not happy about this.
He was not around. I was delighted. I was like, wow, this is showbiz.
So, yeah. And, um, you know, I remember I auditioned for a couple of places. It's funny. I only, I only audition it like, uh, Midwestern schools. I was like, the coasts are kind of scary. That sounds too intense. I never would have imagined that I actually live in New York city now, but, um, uh, I was just a shy, Midwestern farm boy. Uh, no I'm from I'm from Detroit actually. Yeah.
But, uh, uh, but yeah,
The melon and I didn't get in there and then I auditioned for, um, uh, for DePaul and I did get it and then like, you know, right from the beginning, like it also threw me for a loop big time that, that first year is pretty much all improvisation, you know, like that, and that was another thing like I should have maybe found out before I am, like, what is, what is this, what is this school's particular approach? You know? But it didn't even occur to me, uh, to like try to find something like, I mean, did, did that surprise either of you that, that was kind of the approach?
Yeah. I never, I didn't even know what improv was. I didn't know what school I was going to. I don't even know how I ended up at DuPont to figure out how that happened. We talk about it a lot and I more than just showed up and called it.
We may never know. We may never know how we ended up there. Um, no matter how much we search, but the, um, uh, and I
Was realizing you are ready. You are ready for improv.
Oh my God. I'd never even thought about improv. I'd never done any form of improvisation in my life. And I was just like, it just really, I was not ready for it. I just wasn't. I was only used to ever working with a text and I still think that that's just like that. I was the kind of actor that, that was my strongest suit is working with the text. And so like maybe I would've done a little better, at least if I'd been to a school where that was the approach, but the, uh, but anyway, that's not where I went. And, uh, I also, I definitely feel in retrospect, like it was the wrong, uh, career move for me to go into acting that it was a premature decision and I would have been better off going to a school. I don't regret studying acting.
I just wish I would have gone to a school where there wasn't a conservatory where I would've been exposed to a broader range of things, you know? Um, and you know, theater is still a part of my life. It's, uh, you know, I haven't like turned my back on it. I mean, I'll get back into that, but like, um, but you know, I just remember it like a really hard time. I thought the classes were, I just like was, I felt constantly, like I had no idea what I was doing. And then I was doing it badly, um, right from the first week. And, um, uh, and I also kind of, I, I want to, I want to ask you too. I kind of vaguely remember the atmosphere as being, um, really kind of hard, like even among our peers of it being really kind of like, um, cutthroat and not very nice, but I can't even, I can't remember any specifics, so I don't know if that's actually true. I remember like, like my best friend at the time, Mike Smith, who was also in the program and I think he left voluntarily after the first year. I don't think he was caught. Do you remember if Mike was cut?
Yeah. And, uh, he got to lead the cool way, right? It's like, no, you don't fire me. I'll fire you. Um, but, uh, uh, but yeah, he, I remember he and I like bonding over that and complaining to each other a lot about how, like, uh, just what, just that it was like a caddy and like hyper competitive atmosphere. But I actually don't remember any specifics about that. So maybe it's not even true. Wait, what do you, what do you two think?
Well, I think that the warning system member, that whole warning system that creates who's on warning and who's not on warning creates a whole level of like, who's good. And who's not, I think, um, where you were placed. Um, I, I just, yes, the answer is, I agree with you that there was an unspoken, um, competition that was inherent in the program that did, did not serve me. Well, that's what I've seen. Um, yeah. So a few things, I mean, one thing that you didn't get to experience, cause you just only did the first year when you started doing shows one person in particular who I won't name was constantly going around to people being like, so how's it going? How's your show going? Oh, is it going bad? It's going bad. And that, uh, prompted Don Elko to teach us his favorite saying which is be aware the psychic vultures.
Yes. Yes. And he taught us to say, whenever anybody asked you when you were outside smoking or having your lunch on the pit, is that what it's called the pit coming along, coming along. That was, that's what you were supposed to say. Whenever anybody asks you how your show is going. And the other thing that I remember is, um, you know, I just, we had to do our final projects in front of all of the teachers and it really just, it became this thing of like right before, or right before additions are right. When your show is going up, it just, you would just find yourself suddenly not feeling connected to your classmates. Like there was this day where we were doing this thing and rolling around on the floor together and all feeling good and happy. And then there was the next day when we were out for the same role. And it was like, there was no relationship to those two.
Totally. It was disconnected. It was like, we're all supposed to be an ensemble until it comes to being picked, choose to loved. And then we're cutthroat. I remember just very quickly, I hated audition so much that I had a fantasy that I would get hit by a car on the way to understand
That's it that's the best case scenario is you get hit by a company.
Oh my God, awful. Wait. Um, we had somebody tell a story about you and Oh God, let's see if you remember terrifying. Well, the story doesn't feature you as much as Peyton, you were doing an improv with Peyton Take told us the story paint was as his, he was Zeus. He was playing the character. He said he was just running around the stage. Lightning bolts. You were, what was Rollo doing? Rolla was statue
Affected by, by Payton's lightning bolts. And we're were trying to understand what he was doing. And it was just like madness, but take tells it as like, it was his moment of being like, what the have I gotten myself? What am I I want? And Rollo and Peyton are Greek gods. And it went on. He said it went on for like half an hour.
I bet I don't remember that one. But I imagine that being a statue was probably one of my, one of my strongest stronger. Um, wow. That's funny. But yeah, so potato, it was more like, what the hell is this place more than like, yeah, God, I remember that's interesting what you say about like the app that, that atmosphere among the students, because of course we were mostly nice to each other, but I, that rings a bell, even for me, even though I wasn't in the shows later, but just like this feeling of like superficially people are really nice to each other, but like not fully there for, yeah. I mean with obviously with exceptions, but like, but just the overall atmosphere place. I remember this is funny. I remember, um, there was one guy I don't remember his name or anything. He was older than us, like a couple of years probably.
And I remember he was just a total bully to me. I don't even remember how this came up. Like just that like how we even happen interact. But I think just like in the, in the, uh, in the building, you know, and I remember he, I don't remember the specifics, but I remember he would just routinely say really mean to me, you know, and that, uh, and it was horrible, you know? And then a couple of years later, you know, after I left the school, I remember I was waiting for the train on that Al and it was on one of those L platforms where like the tracks are in between and there's a platform the other side. And he was on the platform the other side. And I remember him calling out to me and yell, he had to yell cause he was far away, you know, and yelling,
Okay, ma'am Hey God. I said, bully, what's he going to say? And he was like, Hey, I'm really sorry. I was so mean to you. I was going through a really hard time. I think you're totally fine. That'd be
Fantastic.
We should kind of near a new type of relationship therapy. That's based on that so that you have to be standing on opposite sides of the platform so that it's it's, it's like enough distance. So you, you feel safe right. Close enough. So you can really be there
The distance, you know, but then it was also extremely public, which was, which was also gratifying
Therapy. Yeah.
I realized that you were a bully, uh, in an earlier stage of life. That's, it's actually a, an excellent way of handling it. Uh, I thought it was, it totally solved that problem for me. Um,
So when did it start to fall apart for you in that first year? Well, I mean, yeah,
It's clear that I was not doing well and I don't remember the specifics. I'm sure I got warned. Definitely. Um, and, and I, you know, I just remember like Rick Murphy smirking at me a lot in a, in a way that just clearly was not a good sign. Um, and, um, uh, and then, but yet, you know, I knew I was doing bad. I, I, I w I was miserable there. And yet when I got the letter saying I was cut, I just like, couldn't take it in. I remember that moment really vividly just like opening that letter. And I remember reading it and it was written, it was a short letter and it was written in very plain English. I remember reading it and thinking that I had gotten accepted to continue because I, my brain couldn't process it. I remember my roommates saying like, no, dude, you got cut.
And I was like, Oh, um, uh, and, and I just, like, I had no plan B, you know, um, cause it's partly just being that age too. You, you don't have plan BS usually. Uh, and, uh, God, I remember, you know, um, so I went, you know, I went on to go to film school at Columbia college and, you know, kind of for a similar reason as to why I went to acting school, you know, I liked to movies. It was just like the Vegas reason, you know? And, um, uh, so I went to film school, but then, um, and graduated, but I conspicuously like never made films. So it clearly wasn't, it was not the, uh, the thing we're interested in filmmaking. I just, I also just felt like I w I just, it just didn't really click for me. I just didn't feel like I had a natural aptitude for it, you know?
And, um, uh, and that went on for a long time where I felt like I kept trying things out and just like, felt like I'm just kind of crap at this. And like, I remember like reaching a point, like when I was in my late twenties and just feeling like I tried a lot of things and like, nothing was really like, I just wasn't really good at anything. Just feeling like, wow, maybe this is my life. Maybe I'm just like a permanent sidekick for the rest of my life. And I just won't really end up being good at anything. Um, and, uh, and it was a real blow because like, I mean, getting caught was like, I mean, no bones about it. It was a huge blow. And I was like, kind of just, I was very, you know, I was definitely depressed for a long time.
And, uh, and, and I think part of the reason I didn't do well in the rest of the college was just like, I don't think I fully recognize that this was the reason at the time, because I was kind of in denial at like, what a big, what a big blow that was. And, and I didn't get like any therapy or anything. Um, but I did a lot of drugs, um, like, you know, uh, uh, like all through, and I don't want to blame it just on like getting cut from theater school. It was also just being young and dumb, but I remember like through, you know, what, like when I was like a teenager, I was very straight edge and kind of a goody-goody and like, AF like for the rest of my college years and into my twenties, like, I remember like if there was a drug, I was there, like, if anything, to like, you had something to snort or a pill to pop, I was on it.
Like, I remember finding drugs after a party and just being like, I don't know what this is, but here we go. And just like, so like, like self-destructive definitely, and I, in retrospect, I feel sure that there's like a connection between that behavior and, um, and just like the end is blow, you know, that I never really processed. Um, uh, so it was rough, you know, because like, you know, I mean, acting is such a rough gig in general. I mean, as you obviously know that, it's just like, it's so personal and it's so like, you are just putting yourself out there. Everyone knows this, but like, you know, uh, but it's like, it's like a hard fall. Um, and I also don't, you know, this is how I interpret it in retrospect, but I'm also like suspicious of how I remember things too, because like, and kind of the stories that I tell myself about how things went down, because like, like one thing I remember is that like, uh, the thing I always remembered was that I didn't know what I wanted to do after getting cut from the program.
Um, I wanted to take a year off from school just to figure things out, but that my parents pressured me to continue college. Cause I want, cause they wanted me to just get it done. And, and this was what I believed had happened for many years. And then like, just a few years ago, I came across like a letter that my father had written me at that time. And, um, uh, and he was like, well, you know, like your mother and I keep telling you, we really wish you'd take a year off to figure things out, but you seem determined to continue with school. So, you know, there's nothing we can do about it. I was like, what? Oh, so the exact opposite of the story that I told myself, I just blaming my father all this time or like, you know, but it was actually me. And it's like, but to, because of that, I thought it was such a great lesson though. Just like, wow. Like I was like, Jesus, how many other things do I, am I palliative went down a certain way and they, and they, and actually maybe the exact opposite is the truth.
It's fascinating because we talk about this. There is a few States that happens. You're not alone in this where at least for me, I had, I have thought for years that certain things happen. And then especially during that period between the period of like eight, 16 years old and 30 years old, where I have told myself stories about the way went down, starting at DePaul, that I don't think are true, but it felt true at the time. And that's the actual real thing, but it's a trip to look back and be like, wait, what happened? I, Oh my gosh. So it's, it's an interesting thing. It's a phenomenon.
Yeah. Tell me Gina. Yeah. Oh, well, something that occurs to me, that's really interesting about your story is, and you can correct me if I'm getting this wrong. But my impression from what you're saying is, you know, in high school, you stumbled into this drama program with this very charismatic teacher, which caused you to stumble in to the decision to go to a conservatory, which caused you to get cut and then stumble into going to film school. But we're, we're burying the lead here. You're a very successful writer and writing is a set of skills for which you cannot be anything but intentional and aware, you know what I'm saying? So you made a real left turn somewhere.
I did well, I'll tell you how that came about. You know, like I was, um, uh, I was, like I said, like when I was in my late twenties, I, I was starting to think like, maybe I won't be good at anything ever. And then just kind of, you know, I, out of the blue, I remember I was reading the New York times magazine and I was like, wow, this would be really cool to like to do this for a living, like write articles for this magazine. And, um, uh, and I just started thinking about like, and I had also started traveling a little more like world travel. I was thinking like, man, this is the best, how can I, how can I get paid to do this? And those kinds of things came together and like reading the New York times magazine and like the new Yorker magazine and, and thinking about traveling and thinking like, wow, maybe journalism is a way to do it.
But the thing is I hadn't been doing any writing at all. Like, like I, you know, I grew up in a very bookish household. Like my father worked for a publishing company. My mother was a school librarian, but I, I did not have any practice of writing. And so, but, but I decided like, you know, I'm going to give this a shot. I'm going to try journalism. But I felt like since I was coming to it very late, I would be starting journalism school. I was like, I didn't start journalism school till I was after 30. I, but I felt like I should go to journalism, graduate school to kind of speed up the process and get a jumpstart, you know, in grads, the grad school program, just like a year and a half long, um, because I was coming to it so late, you know, and, uh, but I went into journalism school, never having published anything and really having no serious writing practice.
So sort of way, like it was kind of, I didn't learn much from the theater school experience. Cause again, I just leaped into something without really knowing what I was doing. But this time it just really, it was the opposite in every way where I completely thrived in journalism school. And I was like, uh, like at the end of it, they gave me an award for best students in the class. And they said, and the teacher said never has there been such a unanimous decision among the teachers of who should get this award? And I mentioned that to brag, but just to like, say like, this was just such the opposite of the theater school experience, you know? And so it was like, wow, okay. I actually am good at something finally, you know, and then, you know, and it takes, and in a funny way, like, you know, journalism is kind of similar, like similarly difficult, uh, profession, uh, as acting cause like, you know, I'm a freelancer still and you're, you know, it's, you're always hustling.
You're um, uh, you're always trying to get gigs. You're usually getting rejected. Um, you're, um, it's very precarious. It's highly competitive. You're putting like your very personal self on the line with everything you do. So it's actually really similar in a lot ways, but then I, I found like, because I feel like I'm just like competent at it. I've never felt freaked out about that. I've always felt like I will continue to make this work, you know? Uh, so, and I, I think that's such an important thing that like, I mean, we have such, like, I feel like that's not at all unusual that it takes people until their thirties, even later to figure out what is their thing and what they're going to do with their life, if ever if ever. Absolutely. And, and you don't even have to have like a thing that, you know, you know what I mean?
It's like, but, but like, and maybe your thing is like, and maybe your thing isn't even like a career thing, but if some other aspect of life, that's just like, what your, what makes it, what makes it good for you? You know? And, um, uh, and you know, th there's such like a cult of youth in, in, uh, in our culture, in such a cult of, of, of professional success in this really like narrow sense that like, um, uh, you know, there's so much emphasis on early success. It's not how it typically happens. I mean, the reason why they have the reason why early success gets lauded so much is because it's, it's exceptional, you know, but we come with the message that so many of us taken, especially I think young people take away from that is that, uh, early success is the only right way to do it, or else you're just bad or slow, you know?
And what I've learned from like working in news is that what gets, what gets the stories that gets published? Are they unusual ones? And then we come to think that they are typical because they get published. You know, it's actually the opposite. They get published because they're news because they're unusual, you know, and that, like, it's just as often, it's amazing how many, like writers I admire also started later than I did, you know, uh, at, at, at writing and doing it professionally. Um, uh, and I'm sure it's true in many professions. It doesn't stop for every profession. That's not true of gymnasts, but like, you know, but, uh, Yeah, it's hard to be a child star.
I'm still hoping to be,
I think you can do it. You've got that button nose and just those rosy red cheeks.
Well, the two people who are coming to writing very late in life, this whole venture is, you know, we both stumbled around with performing and trying to make a living at, with what we went to school for. And we both found it very difficult and, uh, it, yeah, so it took us till 45, two or 44, I guess we were technically, but better, late than I know.
And like, you know, you don't do one thing your whole life. That's not how it works. We, you know, we, you know, if you're lucky you live for a long time and you do different things, I don't think I'll do this. I don't want to do the same thing I'm doing now forever. I want to try other things too, you know? Um, yeah.
Um, that is, uh, how did you stop doing, doing the drugs?
Oh, God, it's just kind of gradual. I'm very lucky that I didn't get addicted to anything. I just, and now I'm like super sober, not even by choice. I just really lost interest in it. It wasn't even a conscious decision, but, um, I think just as my life improved, you know, I just like didn't want to anymore. Um, yeah. But that's, I feel very lucky for that, that I never had. I also just, I drank too like great access, you know? Uh, like I remember, I remember repeatedly in my twenties, like passing out in the bathrooms of bars, you know, um, uh, not good, not good stuff. Um, and, um, uh, and now like, it just, it just holds no interest for me and that's been for a while, but if it was really just to kind of a gradual thing. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I'm lucky that way. Like, I, I also kind of, I quit smoking that way to where I didn't even decide. I just kind of like tapered off, which is weird, you know? Like, I don't know,
That's an anomaly. I think most people struggle with it a lot more. Thank goodness. But thank goodness you didn't have, you know, a near death experiences, what it usually takes for people to give up doing drugs.
It could, it could have gone really bad. Yeah. So, so the purpose is to look, yeah,
You went to Columbia, which a lot, we've talked to a lot of people who that's a very common pathway after leaving the theater school is to finish the degree at Columbia. And almost everybody we've talked to has said, you know, it was such a better fit for them. And they were so grateful that they got cut because Columbia was the right place. But it w it's not that it doesn't sound like it was the wrong place for you. It just wasn't the field that you really were meant to be in.
I just, it was, Columbia was fine and my teachers were great and all that, but, you know, the whole thing happened to me. The whole rest of my college years occurred in a haze of marijuana smoke and like the, I just wasn't really engaged. And so the right place for me finally. And when I really kind of like, and I always regretted that I always regretted that I wasted my college years is how I saw it. And that I didn't really like have an actual college experience. Cause I was like, yeah, in high school, I was just like a straight a student in college. I got pretty, you know, at Columbia college, I actually got pretty poor grades and I, I could have easily gotten good grades if I had been engaged. And um, but like finally going to graduate school years later was kind of, that was when I belatedly found my thing. You know what I, I always, you know, recently I read, uh, this novel by a Summerset mom of human. It's a terrible title, but it's actually a really great book. I have, I think you read this book or anything.
I started to read it about like 20 years ago. I don't think I finished.
If it's, it might be the kind of book that hits you better when you're a little older. Cause it's like, it's like a coming of age story and he wrote the first draft of it. Um, it's very autobiographical. And he wrote the first draft of it. Um, when he was like right after the events had happened and it was really raw and he sent it around to many publishers and they all rejected it. And then he kind of stuck it in a drawer. And then like 20 years later pulled it out and totally rewrote it. But he had like all those raw emotions from that time, he got them down. Cause you forget all that stuff, you forget all the specifics and the way things actually felt. But then he had like the distance of experience and he re he rewrote it's very usual cause he liked to drafts 20 years apart and you can kind of feel how both are there.
And like he tells the story of how like the main character of the book is, um, uh, what really wants to be an artist and is really fervent about it. And he goes to art school and studies with artists, but he's just not cut out for it. And, and, and then his life, he just kind of stumbles through life and, and uh, and it's not going well for him until finally he realized what he wants to do is be a doctor. And then he finally flourishes at that at the end. And I was like, wow, this really feels kind of like the story I really related to it a lot. Um, uh, the, uh, just kind of the, the journey of this character goes through there. Um, but yeah, you know, the, um, it's funny cause the, with the theater stuff, like,
You know, I was thinking about, you know,
Do I regret going, like going to the theater school period? Do I regret going to acting and all, I mean, I don't think, like I learned that much from trying to be an actor specifically and obviously like going to theater school and getting cut was a terrible experience. I'm glad I got cut in a weird way because like, I would've just continued. Of course. And then it, it just wouldn't have worked out in the long run I think at, um, uh, but even because I got through it, even that bad experience of getting caught and then dealing with it over years, I do think it kind of toughen me up, you know, I dunno, I dunno. Or
Like, well, I I'll tell you one
Thing that it helped me learn was like to, to really do things for myself, you know? Uh, and like, like, like I, I mean, in the sense of like do things because they bring me joy and not because, and not to try to like, uh, please an institution or please, um, uh, you know, uh, a professor or whatever, you know, and, and that was something I learned in a different, like one of the, one of the many things I tried in my twenties that I was not good at, was I playing in, uh, playing in bands. I played like keyboards and, and, um, mostly in bands, I was not good. That was another thing where like I tried to learn, uh, play piano for many years and just never got good at it. It was so annoying just like to put all those years of practice and playing the piano and just continue to suck, you know, like I was, I was such a bummer, but the, um, but anyway, I played in bands where, you know, the whole band sucked enough where it didn't really matter that I also sucked anyway, we were bad.
I, in my, in my opinion, you know, we were not good bands, but you know how it is when you're a performer, you get off stage and people think that was amazing. That was incredible. You were great. And like, that's just how it is because people it's awkward, people know what fragile egos performers have. Uh, you know, they're right there in front of you. You don't want to insult. Um, so of course you're always going to say, and just having people say that to me over and over getting off stage from like, uh, a performance in the band, knowing it was bad, getting like praise to high heaven for it. I just like learned to just disregard praise or mission. You know what I mean? Just like this is that this is like not what you're, when people praise you. It's just, it's usually not even some sincere, authentic, so you better be doing it for a different reason, you know?
And, um, and, and I think I, when I went into acting, I really was doing it for applause and I was doing it because of like, also just kind of like the cult of celebrity too. Like I remember fantasizing like what I was like in my late teens. I remember having extensive repeated fantasies of like what I would say on talk shows, but not, but not having fantasies about making things. Do you know what I mean? And that should have been a side, like you're like, you should be dreaming about the things you want to make, you know, and not about like, yeah. Talking to,
Yeah. It's the cultural celebrity, that's the cult of celebrity. I mean, that's just, you know, I, my mind was blown. We were talking to someone who was sharing just about being on stage and having this moment of, um, of really feeling the audience and feeling like this. This is the reason I do this. And I've never had that moment ever. I don't think I've ever had a moment. And I was like, Oh, I should be doing something else. Like, look, it doesn't mean I'm bad or she's good, but all it means is, Oh, this is not. And so what I hear from you is like, this is not the quality that I'm looking for in my life of hearing that I'm good at something that I don't feel I'm good at. But it sounds like with your writing, you've found that sort of, um, uh, I guess for lack of a better word, it's like an authentic thing that you're doing that feels
Like you're on the right path. I just think that is so
Wonderful that you found your writing. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, you know, and I, and that is how it feels, you know? And I think you, I think, you know, when you're doing it and it's not like, it's not like, um, all praise is meaningless to me. Of course, I like to be complimented and like, but it's like, it, it's only meaningful if like, like I find it meaningful when I, I read or overhear some praise that someone is saying, and I, and they didn't know I was going to hear it, you know, like that's meaningful. Or like, if someone writes me an email about something I wrote and it's clearly like really specifically, like, like this meant a lot to me, for whatever reason, you know, then that's really great, you know, and that is actually very encouraging, um, and meaningful. Uh, but not this kind of like odd, but like if a friend of mine says, Oh, I read your article. It was great. That means nothing, no loves everything. I've just, anytime, anytime I do anything. And my mother tells her that she was like, okay, mom. Yeah, I'm sure you loved it after everything my nine-year-old does, but
I have this experience all the time. I'm part of this, uh, performance group. And, um, and I'll do something and I'll feel really proud of it. And I'll get all this praise and then somebody else will do something. That'll be crap. And they'll get all this praise. And I'm like, Oh, I was, I was shooting for the wrong thing here. But, you know, I want to go back to something about stumbling into acting, which is that I think, and I have a child in high school now I'm remembering it a little bit. But, um, I think what happens to a lot of people and maybe even, especially boys and men, if you aren't necessarily like fitting in with the thing that is the big thing at your school, if you go, you know, if it's sports or if it's, whatever it is, it it, and you don't like there, there's just this leftover category, which ends up being always the theater department, the drama group. And so socially, I mean, I went to high school with Jessica chestain she? But she was like the only person besides me that I know of, who's still pursuing this. Mostly. It was people who were being rejected socially in other spheres and found a home of their peers. And that turned into, I must like theater.
Exactly. I think that's an excellent point. And theater is wonderful for kids like us who are in that category. I mean, it's an, it's an amazing thing. And that's what actually, that's what got me through high school. It's funny that it's what got me through high school. And then it's what ruined college, you know, the funny that way. Cause it like really, uh, cause I was, I was very, I was super miserable in middle school, you know, and like absolutely, uh, theater was my saving grace in high school. And so like what, you know, God, it's, it is such, it is such a gift to so many kids, but like, yeah, but not everyone should go, go into professionals.
There's an, I think about this with writing and other things like if, if you don't fit in theater should not be the only option for those of us. And then we shouldn't try to make a living at it just because it was a place that accepted us into it's like, let's give kids more options. Like, it's the story? Like, how about writing? How about directing? How about producing like, or, or other stuff? I mean, it just speaks to, um, the narrow, the narrowness that we have, like you were saying, this really narrow scope about what's successful and then what to do for college and what to do for a career. Just because, I mean, this is really crass, but just because I'm good at blow jobs doesn't mean I should be doing them all the time. Do you know what I'm saying? Or professionally? So, so I think there's like this broad spectrum and, and while theater is great to house us, us misfits, it doesn't mean we should go and try to go and beyond, you know, all my children. No, that's fine. But we didn't know.
I, I met a lot of, I met a lot of kids in journalism school who like the school paper or the school year book actually was that thing for them. And it's funny, like, I, those things weren't even on my radar in high school, they had no interest for me, but like, um, uh, and then even now like, like the kind of journalism I do, like, I, I am a journalist, but like I'm not interested in news. Like I, you know, I don't really, I kind of hate news in a way, but I write, uh, like everything I read about is it's never news. Um, it's always just things that I, I I'm interested in writing about.
Do you write about theater? I saw on your website, you do some things about theater. Is that when you were at, when you said earlier, you're still involved in theater, is that what you're writing?
Yeah, so, you know, I did, like, I kinda, I got back into theater in a couple of different ways were first after I moved to New York city. Um, I, for a few years I fell into stage managing for like downtown theater companies for, for, um, for just like weird downtown theater companies. And I loved it. It was really fun and it just happened. Like I went to some show by this group. They are they've unfortunately folded now, but this company called the national theater of the United States of America. And, and, uh, and they, yeah, they're not, they weren't the actual national theater that's historic, but the, um, they were amazing. They were so delightful and funny and, and inventive. And, uh, and, and I remember just seeing one of their shows and just being like, God, I just have to be a part of what these people are doing in some way.
And I just dropped by their theater one day and said, is there anything you need help with because I just want to be a part of it. And they were like, we need a stage manager. And I was like, okay, great. What's that? Um, what does a stage manager do? And then they told me, and then I just like, um, uh, got, got it, got into that. And then, um, and, and did say managing for other shows for years, I loved it, but I knew I didn't want to do it professionally, but it was a lot of fun. I got to know a lot of, I got to know the theater scene here really well, especially kind of the downtown scene and, um, uh, doing the weird stuff and, um, and got to know a lot of, yeah, just theater professionals here. And then later when I started working at the new Yorker, I was working as a copy editor at the new Yorker magazine right after journalism school.
And I overheard that, um, uh, that this one of the regular theater reviewers was leaving. It actually was, uh, uh, it happened to be Brandon Jacob Jenkins, who, um, who's gone on to become an enormous successful playwrights. He was, he was leaving in order to, uh, to kind of devote himself full time to play writing. And, um, uh, and he kind of focused on in his theater reviewing for, uh, on the, on the downtown stuff, you know, so they had this gap there. And, um, uh, and this is just like, this is just the little capsule reviews in the front of the magazine, in the section called, uh, goings on about town. And so I, I said, I just overheard that he was leaving. And so I went to the editor and I said, Hey, you know, I actually have some background theater and I actually know that scene pretty well.
Um, w would you be interested in giving me a try? And she was like, sure, then I've been doing it for like 10 years, you know? And, uh, and it's so great. I love it. It's one of my favorite parts of life is like going to these, it's funny. I only ever write these little capsule reviews that are like 130 words long. I've never written a full length theater review. I wouldn't even know how to, I'm just for this format. I love this format because it's like, it's like kind of a game of like how much information can you fit into a paragraph, you know? And like, um, and so it's just so fun just to go, like, go, I see a couple shows or I did until the pandemic saw a couple of shows a weekend. And, uh, and just like, it's just such a great way to be engaged with New York city. And it's like a really fun writing practice. Uh, and so, yeah, obviously it never would have happened if I hadn't been in the theater beforehand. Um, so that in a roundabout way, you know, that, um, it paid off in his head. It's funny because like, no teenager is like, I want to be a theater critic.
No, I wanna meet that kid who does want to be a theater critic, but it turns out that it's, that it's, uh, that it's actually extremely fun. Of course it is. It's great. It's a great,
How did you get in, uh, looks like you've spent a lot of time in and written a lot about India. How did that come about
My, uh, just through marriage, actually, my, um, uh, my, my wife is from India and we go every year for family trips and it was around the time when I was really kind of getting my freelance career going. I had to just, you know, when were going there, I just noticed that there were a lot of great things to write about. And then, so I started pitching stories to, uh, you know, especially the New York times magazine seeing if they could, they've taken, taken all the ideas. It's been great. I'm working on a book about it now. Exactly. So now I'm working on a book, so I'm just kind of deep into that right now. And it's kind of expanding on one of the stories that I did for the New York times magazine. It's a pretty grim story about the murder of a journalist, um, in, uh, in Bangalore a few years ago. Um, so it's a book-length version, but it's the books, not just grim, it's like, kind of about her whole world and like the kind of like a really vibrant, like literary world that she came out to. Um, so
Yeah, I think your first time writing a book for
Definitely first time writing a book and that's, um, and I always kind of wanted to get into that. So this is a, and I'm really enjoying the process. It's good. It's really hard work, but it's, um, uh, I like it. I like it a lot.
It's do you have like a dedicated practice? I mean, a routine, the system for how you write
Yeah. You know, it's really fallen off. Like I've been, you know, like everyone's so distracted this year that everything's kind of falling apart. I, I asked my editor for a, a year extension, um, and she said, no problem. Um, uh, and, but yeah, you know, I write every day and there's, and there's just a ton of research too. So I've just got mountains of books that I'm weeding through. It's kind of like, I think I meant like cooking, like, you know, like, like making, like reducing a stock, like you take all these vegetables and like, uh, you're just like cooking a doc, cooking it down and cooking it down until like, and so I feel like I have all these, like hundreds of books that I'm reading through, or at least reading apart and all these inter like countless interviews of like hundreds of thousands of words and all these are just all this reporting. I did all this stuff and it's just like cooking it down, cooking it down. Um, yeah. So it's a book, hopefully,
Boz I don't think I told you this, but Rollo had written to us saying, you know, something about, if we ever wrote a book using cereal and I was like, Oh, what a good idea we should do that we should write a book using this material or something, something related to this that would be, but definitely have to call you up. If we, I mean, it's been such a pleasure to hear you and to see you and to know that like, if it does give me great hope to know that we can stumble through really, we were lucky. We're lucky in that we ha we can stumble through and still make it, but like that there's anyone
Out there that's listening. That's like, man, I am not good at anything that is not true. The thing is you just haven't found the thing and the thing has the thing, has it found you? And I think that's what I'm going to take from our talk is that, like, you don't know when the thing is going to find you and you'll find your thing. And the cult of youth is a myth and a lie and we got to get over it cause that's not right.
Absolutely. And it's like, you know, I, I feel like this is the best time in my life. And, um, and no one, no one tells you that when you're a teenager or in your twenties, that like you actually, there's actually a good chance. You'll be love in your life when you're in your forties or even your fifties or whatever. You're, you're just like forties. Uh, but like, but I think it's true for a lot of people that they finish. Even if you are good at something, when you're younger, it's just such a period of like insecurity and just like, Oh God, I don't miss that time at all. Not just because the theater thing didn't work out just because it's such an awkward time, you know?
Absolutely. So awkward. I'm what I'm going to take away related to what boss said is, you know, if you're finding that you aren't, you feel like you're not good. I think, uh, look at, take another look at the way you got to do the thing that you're doing, that you feel like you're not good at, you know, is it just because it can be something so fleeting? Like, you know, I remember at one, one time, at one point in my life, my dad said you should be a lawyer. And even though I wanted to be a, an actor since the time I was five years old, there was a brief moment when I wasn't doing well with this. I thought, well, I guess, I guess my own, I literally said to myself, I guess my only other choice is to be a lawyer.
And
The only thing that stopped me from doing it was the GRE I did not. And I knew I would not be able to pass the LSATs, but like, you know, examine, consider the source of where you, you know, the thing that you've been pursuing, why are you doing that? And maybe because maybe you need to pay more attention to, you know, what you like instead of what other people tell you. You're good.
Yeah. And you know, there are so many things that people are doing now that did not exist when we were podcasting did not exist when it was far from existing. This was not like, yeah,
It wasn't a thing. And now it is, and now we can have people like you on which I'm. So I'm just so grateful that we had you on because it's like, it just gives me hope there.
Wow. I was delighted to hear it from you because I felt like actually, I'm finally ready to talk about it.
Right?
[inaudible] theater school. It's an undeniable in production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina plea cheat are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina. [inaudible] follow us on Instagram at undeniable writers or on Twitter at undeniable, w R I T one that's undeniable, right? Without the [inaudible].