Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who
see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care.
I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.
I talk to poor some humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people.
So come and join us for today's conversation.
Hello,
Anke: and welcome.
Welcome back, Dr Edward.
I'm super excited
Dr. Edward: to have you here.
Well, I'm very happy to be here too.
I really love having, you know, deep conversations about things that are
important when it comes to connecting with animals and building deeper
relationship And rapport with them.
Anke: Wonderful.
So you've already hinted at, um, at the topic.
Yeah.
Tell us about empathic training and empathy in the relationship with our
Dr. Edward: dogs.
Yeah.
So, um, we're we're teaching I know we're talking about dogs primarily,
but, you know, I work with Lots of different animals, and I'm just about
to have horses come into my life.
And we're teaching whole energy body balance for horses for
the first time this year.
So I've been thinking a lot about What is it and and how does it work when
I'm connecting with animals, building rapport, building relationship, teaching
animals How to not do things that are undesirable and how to make them feel like
they wanna do things that are desirable.
But at the heart of it is really the relationship with the
animal that is most important.
And probably the most important thing about that relationship It's how
the animals are feeling while I'm communicating with them, interacting with
them, and doing all that sort of thing.
So empathic Dogmanship, empathic horsemanship.
Um, I don't know if dogmanship's ever been a word before, but Well, it will be now.
A little bit of dialogizing and make it up, For me, is is something
that I've only just realized in the last week or 2 kind of what that is.
Now our animals, whether they be dogs or horses, are extraordinarily empathic,
And they can read us like a book.
They know how we're feeling and what's going on inside of us intimately
To a far, far higher degree than at the other end of the leash.
Yeah.
You know, I think that us humans, when we were little infants and little children,
We had that same level of intuitive, empathic sensitivity and awareness online,
but the human jungle kinda squishes it out of You know, we shut a lot of that down
to survive in in the human what I call the human jungle, which is, you know, all the
unhealthy behaviors, socializations, and And things like that that impact on us.
But I've always been incredibly sensitive, And I don't know.
Some 20 odd years ago, then I I got into the more intuitive energy healing side of
things, and that Then opened up a whole other layer of sensitivity and perception.
And what I found is that when when humans Learn how to connect with
themselves and know themselves and and really become embodied.
You'll spontaneously begin to have the experience of The the other being that
you're interacting with in your energy, in your emotions, in your sensations, in your
body, Which is what I define as empathy is experiencing the state of consciousness
and awareness of another being within your own consciousness and awareness,
Which is kinda on the on the borders of strange and wonderful when it comes to
the veterinary profession and even all the mainstream type training stuff, though,
there is a there's been a huge, um, Upwelling of people who are starting to
really put the how the animal is feeling first when it comes to training and
working with them, whether it be horses or dogs over the last, I don't know.
5 or 10 years, there's been a huge increase in this and a huge increase in
awareness of what signs of discomfort and Pain and distress, uh, in horses and dogs.
You know, at the moment, we're starting to see in the dressage,
which is kinda like the the Upper echelon of of horse competition, you
know, the the elite, so to speak.
That you're getting these horses that are scoring really high in Dressage
rounds, but people are saying, excuse me.
They might be scoring high, but look at all these signs of distress and pain and
discomfort and anxiety in this horse.
I mean, come on.
What's going on?
And the elite people who are riding these horses are not
responding terribly well to this.
They are losing their shit, if you'll excuse my French, And tending to, um,
then attack the people who are pointing out something really obvious to anyone
who studied all that sort of stuff.
So I've also been working with a guy, Lucky Phillips, who's created a
thing called emotional horsemanship, which is really fascinating and
another part of this revolution.
He's someone you might wanna have on your show 1 day.
He's a super, super interesting guy.
But, um, When you start considering how the animal feels to be really, really
important, well, then you've gotta start to work out how you can work that out.
Yeah.
Totally.
Anke: Totally.
And it's fascinating because I'm thinking, well, That kind of healing
and tapping into, you know, somebody else's space, like, I I don't know.
I've had energy Heeding readings from you know?
And it feels like well, it seems kind of natural and obvious for
People to be able to hook into what's going on for somebody else.
And I've experienced it where they come out with stuff like, you have
no rational way of knowing this.
Right?
Oh, so, you know, so there is there is, um, yeah, I can totally see how that
would be New and and a little like, what in the in the in the animal world?
So well, obviously, my question then would be so Well, first of all, like, something
that popped up to me is, like like, yes.
And I have a very sensitive dog, and and, uh, he's he's sort of
more sensitive than other dogs.
And So he will know when I'm sort of under the weather.
Right?
So now sometimes I'll still need him to do something even
though I'm under the weather.
So, you know, how can I how can I, let's say, keep him safe even if I'm not calm?
Because when I'm calm and grounded, Everything's easy.
You know?
But if I'm like, if my stress bucket is full, and I know I can't can't
kind of trick my dog, You know, how can I still keep him safe and
make sure he comes when I call even if you know, so it doesn't yeah?
Because I can't perhaps Be a hundred percent of the time, you know, calm
and controlled and and grounded.
And so that's the first question.
The other question is, How do I get well, what is it that somebody can do to
start that journey towards, like, okay.
How can I connect to animals in that way?
But, Yeah.
1 after the other, which 1 whichever 1 you want
Dr. Edward: first.
The I think the first thing is that if if you have stress, if you have
fear, if you have, um, Um, anger, frustration, any of these things come up.
Look.
I've got a 4 month old puppy at the moment.
I can gotta tell you.
There's some frustration on my side.
The illusion of behavior.
She, um, chewed up 2 pairs of prescription glasses and peed on our bed last week.
You know?
So What I say to people is, number 1, don't suppress what you're feeling.
Number 2, no matter how you're feeling, you can connect With your animals.
You don't need to hide your sadness or grief or whatever.
It's not gonna you know?
Because Anything you suppress, your animals tend to feel even more than
if you don't because they just can see right through you, like I said.
So So what I recommend that you do is, number 1, if you're having a
stressful day is to really own it in your body and say, well, I'm really
stressed today, and I I can feel this stress in various ways in my being.
Because if you can name it to yourself and own it, then you can contain it, and
it won't leak out into your Interactions and communications with your animals.
So that's the thing that a lot of people tend to, um, be worried that they're gonna
harm their animals with their feelings.
And I don't believe that that's possible if you'd if you are willing to actually
feel what's going on inside yourself.
Now that's uncomfortable.
Right.
It's a lot more comfortable just to suppress it and push it down,
but then it's still active in your system, and it leaks out into all
your interactions with your animals.
And and That's more damaging to your relationship than anything else.
If you can be open with yourself about how you're feeling, name it, contain
it, Then you can continue to, you know, be in rapport and communication
with your animals in a healthy way.
But how do you develop develop empathy is really the question here.
And for me, The way that I work with this is that I work on being
more present and more aware and more in my body And being here and now.
And I can talk you through just a a kind of an abbreviated version of
the longer processes that we that we teach all our students in the Whole
energy body balance training programs.
And if you really wanna develop that further, you know, you can either
have 1 on 1 sessions with me by going through the healing vet dot com.
We go to whole energy body balance dot com and check out our training programs, web
body work for pets, web energy work for animals, web for horses, web for humans.
There's a whole range of high level programs that can teach you a whole range
of different ways to communicate with connect with your animals in a better way.
But the first thing that I'm gonna invite you and everyone listening to do is
just to become aware of your posture.
Soon as you become aware of your past due, what happens?
You straighten up a little bit.
Right?
Because when you bring awareness to anything, you align yourself.
And when your physical body is aligned.
You're more alert.
You're more aware.
You have more strength and dexterity in your hands, And
you also have more presence.
Now presence is intimately related to To your ability to be to be a leader.
The more presence you have, the more natural leadership qualities you express.
It's just, In my experience, that is just a a direct correlation.
And the next step is to bring All of your awareness into and
throughout your physical body, and then simply be present with whatever
the heck is going on in there.
No need to try and change anything, understand anything.
It's a a pure, simple act of self witnessing and self presence,
if you wanna call it that.
Now, again, this is gonna involve some degree of healthy discomfort
because the more you bring awareness and you can if you continually bring
into and throughout your whole body.
Your awareness is infinite, so there's always more.
Right?
But what'll happen is, My god.
You know?
That that kind of tight area in my neck that I was ignoring, suddenly,
you start to feel the discomfort of that and this sadness that I've been
storing away under My heart here for the last 10 years since I lost my dog.
Oh my god.
I'm feeling all sad and stuff.
So then you, you know, the if you wanna have An empathic
rapport with your animals?
You gotta have an empathic rapport with yourself first.
Once you know yourself intimately, then you can start to meet the
other beings In your consciousness.
In addition to that
Anke: sense, it reminds me of a of a meditation retreat.
Like, I went in Australia, actually.
It was like a 3 day silent retreat, so that's all we did.
And it was amazing what came out over that time.
You know, when you sort of you know, it's like, yeah, it's 1 thing to
Sit there, meditate for 20 minutes, like, you know, to be to kind of
alternate between sitting, standing, walking, like, for 3 days straight.
It's incredible.
You know?
And what came up, and it started with the, oh, my knee hurts.
Like, I'm getting a little uncomfortable to All the stuff that we installed,
like, you know, decades, it comes out.
Yeah.
It's definitely an experience.
Dr. Edward: And then the third step is is energetic connection and awareness.
So we all have primary flows of energy that move through our system.
The first 1 is There's a flow of yin or feminine nature chi from the earth
flowing up through your body and out through your head continually.
And there's a second flow of yang or more masculine energy flowing from the sun
down through your body and out through your feet simultaneously at the same time.
And if you with your heart center, you drink in generous amounts of both yin
and yang until your heart overflows with that combined energy, and it
overflows to Feel you to overflowing.
So you're kinda filling your energy cup, flows out through your hands,
fills your whole body to overflowing.
What happens then is that you you've got a full cup.
Right?
And you've got this energetic connection, and this starts to
affect All of your chakras and energy systems, and they gradually
will become healthier and stronger.
And, of course, that includes your third eye, which is your The energy center
involved with intuitive perception.
Now any kind of Blossoming of empathic awareness.
You might put your hands on your animal and suddenly burst into tears,
or you might just get a feeling of how they're feeling, or you might
get some kind of intuitive perception which can come through visual sense,
feeling sense, listening sense, Uh, direct knowledge, knowing sense.
Everyone's kinda unique with that.
But the funny thing about it is it's totally nonlinear And unpredictable.
And you can't predict it.
So you have to continue doing this practice, and this is a practice that I
do the kind of more advanced version of many times a day, every day of my life.
It's a practice that I've been doing, well, probably 10 years or longer, And
I do it every day, and I do it often.
And I'm still gaining incremental steady benefits and sometimes quantum
leaps in my awareness from doing this.
But, you know, it's it's the ultimate in delayed gratification.
You don't get a linear response, and you might be doing it for ages
before you finally get something happen that that helps you get this
deeper connection with your animals.
Anke: That might yeah.
Like, that makes sense because I think it also depends how many
years and decades we've been kind of, like, removed from from Yeah.
That kind of awareness.
Right?
So now the next question that pops up for me, um, You know?
So I can kind of interact with my dog, and all of a sudden, like, something
comes up that could be a picture.
It could be you know?
How do I know?
It's like, you know, it's like that.
That's a, like how do you how do you recognize it as, like, oh,
this is something that is actually the animal communicating to me.
You know?
Because the the there's the trust, but then my monkey mind comes in.
It's like, yeah.
But what if I'm all just making this up?
Like, that can't be true because my logical mind can't follow it.
So, you know, my trained reaction comes in like, oh, must not trust it if it
isn't if I can't Trace it back, but in my experience, the whole essence of
intuition is that you just know, and Yeah.
I don't know how you know.
Right?
So Yeah.
You know, is there, like how is that a a process as well in that sense of, like,
yeah, I learned to Trusted and lean into it, or is there something that somebody
can do or stop doing to to to help
Dr. Edward: them along?
Well, that's a complex question.
Um, so, yeah, if you get a little glimpse or a Uh, a glimmering of something that
is kind of either an emotional experience of what's going on with your animal.
Like, for instance, a little while ago, I was driving along the road with my
partner in the car, and she thought a car was gonna pull out into us.
She had a reaction, and I swerved because I felt her reaction.
Wow.
You know?
So that's something that just happens spontaneously.
But I've been doing this for a long time.
Right?
And it is what like I say to people, my superpower is helping people cry.
It's very rare that I have A session with people and animals that there's not tears
for one reason or another because I work with the animal, I'm working with them,
and, Oh, I get a whole lot of sadness and trauma or something come up in my
or fear and and I voice it, and suddenly the human's in tears because there's this
empathic bridging That happens that when I feel the consciousness of and experience
the consciousness of another being in my body, That builds a tremendous bridge of
understanding and connection and rapport on a very, very deep level, and that helps
these People access feelings that they might not be able to access otherwise,
so they suddenly burst into tears.
There's a story that I think is worth sharing here where you had 1 of our
students who was studying the the web body work and energy work, And
he was someone who worked a lot with rescue wild animals here in Australia.
So he had this little Galar, an adolescent galar, which is a a pink and gray parrot.
They're very live in a flock.
They have kinda lifelong Partners.
Very, very social.
This little guy broke his wing, and they thought, okay.
We'll see if we can repair the wing.
Now, unfortunately, when they repaired it, It didn't heal quite
properly, so he was not releasable.
And this little guy, um, this fellow who's our student We're sitting with the galah.
Now before before this happened, by the way, if he went to change the water or
anything in this galah's cage, that galah would be trying to bite him and attacking
him and Telling him to get away from his cage, like, really quite aggressive.
No.
Very pugnacious, aggressive birds.
And if you don't hand rear them, I would have thought they
were unhandlable, Basically.
So he's sitting with this little galah, and suddenly, he feels this
overwhelming sense of grief and loneliness, and he's in tears.
He's Tears pouring down his face, which goes on for about 20 or 30 minutes of
him having this empathic, um, connection and experience of this little bird's
Grief over being away from his flock and, you know, lonely and all this stuff.
You know what?
That little bird Instantly wanted to be his best friend.
Oh.
Wanted grooming, wanted to groom him, was accepting touch, you know, became this
guy's best friend After that experience.
And this is what empathic bridging brings.
It brings A much deeper, quicker connection that brings communication
beyond anything else that can be imagined.
It brings this Rapport that is deeper than than most what most
people understand rapport to be.
Now I think we all have this capacity, and we've just gotta reopen it.
I think a lot of us have shut it down because, you know, if you get
a little infant is Close to someone who's really violent and traumatized.
I think the extreme discomfort of that in their body is enough to make
them go, oh, I can't deal with it.
I must Shut down.
You know?
And with intuitive perception, you know, people who see things that
aren't there are considered to be crazy and taken away in a white Okay.
Yeah.
In a straight jacket and locked up.
So there's a lot of pressure for us to and I know that I shut a lot a lot of stuff
down when I was a relatively young Good.
Because of those social pressures.
I'm still working on reopening all of that.
But you do that practice again and again and again and again and
again, At some point, you will naturally have an ecological opening
up of greater and greater empathic sensitivity and intuitive awareness.
Anke: Okay.
I love that because I don't think you need massive amounts of mastery
to Begin to feel the impact of it.
So I think it's a journey.
You can continue for the rest of your life and grow ways,
see more and experience more.
But I think simply starting, you you know, especially, I guess, if you
haven't done a lot of meditation, think you'll notice, actually, the
first time I watched the video from these guys from the trust technique, I
watched the video, and it's about that.
It's about literally, You know, come into your own body.
Next thing I know, my dogs drop around me.
Like, they're literally like Oh, absolutely.
This is the phone.
No.
You know?
And I'm like, this is, Like, you don't need to be an expert to to
start feeling that the connection is
Dr. Edward: real.
Not at all.
And, you know, a few months ago, I was working with a horse.
We're out in the paddock, and this wild duck comes up to us, and
he's walking around literally 50 centimeters away from our feet.
And the humans what the hell?
I haven't got closer than 20 or 30 meters to 1 of those ducks in
20 years of living on this place.
You know?
And they can feel the the energy.
I was working with bodywork and energy work, and the animals feel it.
I love it.
You know?
That's When I first started learning energy healing decades ago, every
time I practiced, my little crazy staffy, Ticker, would come run
up the steps and sit at my feet.
Alright.
This is strange.
Well, there must be a coincidence.
But after 10 or 20 times, it's like, no.
She can feel it, and she likes it, and she wants to be close to it.
Yeah.
That's fascinating.
Anke: Because anything I think people so often focus on behavior,
on training, on teaching.
And, like like, in my mind, it's like, if we can start here to actually
have that connection, then then you need so much Less on the on the
Dr. Edward: training front.
Well, training.
I'm not into teach my dog's tricks and stuff like that.
I just want you know?
To have enough understanding and connection for safety
and con communication.
And, you know, the other thing is how much of competition is about
the humans' wish to to get ribbons?
Know?
The dog doesn't give a toss about ribbons.
I'm pretty sure horses don't care much about them either.
Anke: So I always think that when I see show dog like, You know, shows and stuff.
And I'm like, these dogs have no good time here.
You know?
They're like,
Dr. Edward: he's just looking at me.
Most of them are probably stressed and unhappy.
And, you know, with With these horses coming into my life, I'm not
presuming I'm ever gonna ride him.
You know, that's something that, number 1, we'll have to make sure
that he he's comfortable and able to be ridden, which is not guaranteed.
I think, like, he said that 80 you know, more than half the horses that
come to him need either Rest and rehabilitation or total retirement
from riding, that's a high proportion.
Right?
And the other thing is that If he doesn't wanna be ridden and I force
that, then what sort of relationship is that gonna be with that being?
It's not gonna be terribly pleasant for him, is it?
Anke: And I and I love I I love that that matters, you know, because
I think traditionally so much.
I think definitely in the horse space, certainly for dogs, there is just, like,
you know, I'm I must kind of, like, control what you're doing, and I need to
kind of intimidate you into submission.
And I just love seeing how you know, you mentioned before, there seems
to be almost like a movement to move away from that, to become more, You
know, concerned with how the animal's feeling, and I just love that.
Dr. Edward: And I can also see that in that movement, you've got Force
over here in aversives, and you've got complete positive reinforcement
and never asking the animal to do anything that it doesn't do over here.
Well, I think they're both unhealthy.
Yeah.
I agree.
Because I've seen a few dogs like this, and they're fat, Lazy.
And they won't do things that they need to do for their health and well-being Because
they've never been asked to do anything they don't wanna do in their life.
And I think somewhere not in the middle, because I don't think force
and aversives are, uh, You know, you need to use the absolute minimum of
what you might call aversive if they're needed, which is really kindness.
So somewhere in here, This part of the spectrum, you gotta have
healthy boundaries, and you gotta be able to say a healthy yes Animals.
And you're gonna be able to say healthy no to your animals.
And there is not and you gotta be able to do this with humans too, by the way.
And there is not a being on this planet that the first time You say a healthy
yes, you're gonna have this thing you don't want that's good for you, or a
healthy no, you can't have that thing you want because it's not good for you.
And there, none of them are gonna say, woo hoo.
Thank you.
That's Great.
Anke: They're all gonna be It's
Dr. Edward: like children is what?
What the hell do you think you're trying to say to me here?
No way.
I don't wanna do that.
Yeah.
So you gotta find a way to move through healthy yes and healthy no in a way that
supports that that deep empathic Rapport, connection, relationship, and you can.
You can move through healthy yeses and healthy nos in a way that
deepens your relationship and trust And bond with your animals.
It takes some learning how to do that.
It's not you know, it's 1 of those things that is simple but not necessarily easy.
Yeah.
Anke: I I mean, I think that's probably not that different
from, you know, raising children.
It's like, yeah.
You don't wanna be like the tyrant, but you don't want to let them get away
with, Like, doing anything they want because that will keep them safe, and it
won't prepare them for for what's ahead.
Right?
So but you don't have think about it.
Right?
Dr. Edward: Absolutely.
I mean, would you train a child with lollies and only lollies?
You think you'd get a good result if you just only interacted with a human
child trying to get them to understand how to to accept boundaries and
stuff with only giving them sweeties.
Not gonna work.
Or it might work, but it's not gonna work well, and it's gonna
cause a whole lot of other problems.
Yeah.
That's for
Anke: sure.
I mean, it sounds so ridiculous if you put it like that, you know, but I think
that's a lot what you see being taught.
You know?
Like, the treat box is like the magic tool.
Dr. Edward: I I hardly ever use, uh, plus like treats food rewards.
I think that they tend well, they drive seeking behavior,
which is not a relationship Building hormone, it's dopamine.
They don't get the dopamine hit until after they've got the treat.
Um, I use touch primarily because that's an oxytocin Bonding relation hormone,
and it also causes them to to deescalate arousal and come into calm states where
they're more able to respond and learn.
Now my little whippet, I noticed the other week that suddenly she decided she
wasn't gonna come back when we're going on walks around the paddocks on our place.
So the next walk, I took a pocket full of treats.
Oh, it was got treats.
I'll definitely come back, and then I don't carry treats Generally, uh,
you know, that 1 thing was enough to really rebuild connection and recall.
Yeah.
Now when I go out When we've got these new horses, which she hasn't
seen before, you can bet your boots.
I'll have a pocket full of the yummiest treats that she loves more
than anything else because I want To have her very motivated to be
focused on me and not chasing horses.
But it's rare that I use positive reinforcement with treats
when I'm working with animals.
I think it's Arousing and stimulating, and it doesn't build relationship.
I love
Anke: that.
Yeah.
That's that makes so much sense when you say it like that.
You know, it feels like, oh, it's 1 of those where you think,
well, why didn't I think of that?
Right?
It's kinda feels so obvious, especially in that in that in that context.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Absolutely love.
So where can people go to, you know, to learn and to learn from you and to
join your community, your programs?
Highly recommended, by the way.
So where can be what where's the best place to go?
Dr. Edward: Well, if you look for the Healing Vet on Facebook, that's
probably 1 of our main Socialists, but we're also on Insta as well.
Um, w w w dot whole energy body bounce dot com, uh, w w
w dot the healing vet dot com.
You'll be able to contact us through there.
Uh, you know, I'm available for what I what I now call intuitive integrated
veterinary services, Worldwide by Zoom.
So you can work 1 on 1 with me, and I gotta tell you, Um, I'm not only
gonna be working with the pets.
If you work with me, I'll be working as much You're gonna be crying.
Absolutely.
Because the humans are the most part of this equation.
And, um, I had a client the other day said, well, I didn't think I
was gonna have a therapy session.
What about my cat?
Right.
And, um, humans need to be aware that they've gotta deal with their end of
the leash as much we need to deal with the animals end of the leadership in
terms of a whole lot of things when it comes to self regulation And all
this other good stuff, relaxation, presence, and and so on and so forth.
Anke: I love that.
Well, that is a power punch.
Right?
The veterinarian with energy healing together, like, that is just awful.
So thank you so much.
We're gonna obviously put the link right below here.
So thanks so much for coming and and sharing that, you know, getting us
all on, you know, this path being more and more present because we I think we
have So much you get so much more to put in and get out of the relationship
with all with all the beings, you know, whatever, however, many legs they have.
So it's definitely worth The experiment.
Dr. Edward: Absolutely.
Thank you.
Thanks so much for listening.
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That's A N k E at Soul touched by dogs.com.