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Benjamin: You're listening to grief
and pizza, A podcast, exploring the

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highs and lows at the intersection
of business and emotional wellbeing.

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And this episode, we're
speaking with Marie Ng.

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, the founder and designer of
the Lama Life application.

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Well, Marie, welcome to the podcast.

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It's great to have you.

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We've been following your journey on
Twitter for quite a while with the

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building of Llama Life, your software
for productivity software and software

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for, I suppose, organizing your life.

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You're technically like the first
sort of business conversation

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we've had on the podcast.

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We've mostly been talking about people's.

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You know, life journeys and,
and, and things like that.

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And, and the business kind of
happens as a, a side conversation.

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So, but it's cool to have
some, a founder on who's going

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to talk about their business.

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so I'd love to start by you just kind
of introducing yourself and maybe give

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us a little taste of your journey from
early founding, learning code on YouTube

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and founding a successful SAS startup.

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Marie Ng: Well, thank you for having me.

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I've listened to your other
episodes and I really enjoyed them.

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So, um, yeah, I'm, I'm
really happy to be here.

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Yeah.

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So my name is Marie.

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I am the founder of LamaLife, which
is a productivity tool that helps

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you manage your attention and your
focus, not just managing your time.

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I didn't always used to
be a software developer.

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I have a background in advertising
and branding and sort of marketing.

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I did that for about 10 years.

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So that was kind of my corporate career.

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And at some point I wanted a change and
I started learning software development

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on YouTube, like you said, and this
kind of happened during like COVID.

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It was kind of my COVID, uh, you
know how everyone was learning

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a new skill during COVID.

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I had a lot of friends like doing DIY
household stuff and learning to cook

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and they're all really great skills
as well, but they're not really me.

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So I was trying to find
like something I could do.

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And I've always wanted to learn to code
and I've actually tried twice before,

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but I, I guess I chose the wrong learning
method before I was trying to read books

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and I'm, I'm really bad at reading.

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Like I just, I'm the sort of
person where I look at a page

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and I'll read the same page.

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over and over again
because I just lose focus.

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So I failed the first two times
because of that, and I didn't

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realize it was because of that.

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And I just thought, oh,
maybe it's not for me.

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But I tried again during COVID and I
watched videos and video and audio is

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just so great for me in terms of learning.

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And I picked it up fairly quickly.

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And Llama Life, Wasn't really
meant to be a business.

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It was meant to be a way for
me to practice my coding.

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And, you know, when you first learn to
code, everyone builds a to do list and

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LlamaLife has an element of a to do list.

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To it, but that's, it's more than that.

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So that's what I built
as my first project.

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And then I put it on Twitter because
I was building in public, which just

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means kind of sharing what you're
doing and just being really open

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about it and getting feedback and
also using it as a way to motivate

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myself and hold myself accountable.

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I just post what I'm doing.

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And I posted a really early
version of Lama life and someone

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straight away, like in the comments
said, Oh my God, what is this?

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Like, where can I get it?

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And I was like, well, it's
just some projects I'm doing.

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But it made me think, well, maybe I should
build it out into a proper business.

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I guess it was like the perfect thing for
me because there's so many aspects to it.

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Like from a, from a learning
perspective, you have to, you

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know, you do the to do list.

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Um, I added some timers.

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So basically Lama life is I guess
at its core, like a list, but

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you can set a countdown timer to
every single task in the list.

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And it's meant to help you with.

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Focus and also, um, time blindness.

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Cause I am super time blind.

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That sounds really
weird, but it's a thing.

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Um, I got diagnosed with ADHD about
10 years ago, and it just means I have

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a really hard time staying focused
and keeping track of time in the day.

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So I kind of built it for myself
from a business perspective.

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There's so many parts you can add.

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There's like the database side, there's
the payment side, there's a design side.

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And so.

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It just was like a perfect thing for
me in terms of learning all these

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different things, being able to
build something from scratch and just

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kind of getting better at coding.

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It just kind of gradually became something
that sounds so weird because I've done

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other businesses in the past where I've
really forced, like really forced it.

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Like I really tried to make
it work and then they failed.

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But this one was a very natural,
kind of serendipitous thing.

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Like all the different events
that kind of helped build it.

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Make it be just kind of happened.

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And on top of that, like, I absolutely
love the product and I love building it.

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So it's the perfect thing for
me as a, as a career as well.

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And as a, you know, quote
unquote job, cause it doesn't

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really feel like a job to me.

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I just love doing it.

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I have so

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Marie: many questions.

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I don't know if you want to
dig in first, Ben, but how long

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was that process between Okay.

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This is a thing that
I'm building for myself.

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Someone expresses interest and
then the decision to actually

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start making something that, uh,
is appealing to other people.

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And so how long did it take maybe to,
to get it to that point that maybe

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you've got that for a sale of a person
that was interested in the product.

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Marie Ng: So from the time I started
learning to code to when I sort

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of pushed out the very, very basic
version of Llama Life, I think it

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was, I want to say like six months.

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But to put more context around that,
because I think a lot of people compare

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and they go, well, I didn't do it in
six months or maybe they did it sooner.

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That was the thing I was doing
like a hundred percent of the time.

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So I had quit my job by that point.

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Cause I'm kind of one of these people
where I can't do two things at once.

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I'm either a hundred percent in on
one thing, or if I do two things,

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they'll both be done at 50 percent and
probably just give up on one of them.

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I was needing a change anyway.

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So I, I'd quit my job already.

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And I was learning to code
like four hours a day.

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I was obsessed with it because
with ADHD, sometimes when there's

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something that's super interesting,
like you get hyper focused on it

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and lucky for me, like I really
love the coding and creating aspect.

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So I was just all in on it.

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Enjoying it, doing it all the time.

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So it was about six months
from writing my first line of

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HTML to launching the product.

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I think I added payments
maybe at eight months.

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So before when it came out,
it was completely free.

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Then I added, buy me a coffee.

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Um, and then I did like single
payments and then I did subscription.

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But it kind of just happened over time.

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I'd say about eight months
was, was the time frame.

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Marie: Amazing.

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How did you get those first folks?

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I know Twitter was a place that you
were doing that building in public.

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What's it been like to kind
of get those first folks?

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First a hundred customers.

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Like I know, you know, Ben and I
used to run a software together.

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You have people saying
like, Oh, take my money.

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But then when it comes time to
ask people to sign up, there's

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that grind in the beginning.

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And did you find that, or did you
feel like there was that, Oh, wow,

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the market is clearly asking for this.

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And it became kind of easy.

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Like, what was that?

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What were the first hundred customers

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Marie Ng: like?

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Yeah, that's such a good question.

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It was from Twitter because
of building in public.

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That was the only marketing
I was doing at the time.

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And I remember when I got the first
customer, the first paid customer

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that wasn't friends and family, it
was a really big moment because,

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you know, you're kind of like, wait,
some stranger wanted to pay me money

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for this thing that I spent time on.

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And it's like the best feeling ever.

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It was a little bit of a grind as well.

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Uh, these things are never easy.

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I think a lot of the time you read stuff
on Twitter or elsewhere and you go, it

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looks easy, but it's, it's so not this.

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And you guys know as well, there's
so much work and effort and things

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behind the scenes and nobody sees.

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Um, so there definitely were some very,
very long hours put in rollercoaster up

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and down, like, should I be doing this?

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You know, is this the right thing?

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Just because one person paid me,
is it enough to be a business and

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sustain, like, you know, my life?

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Um, so there were a lot of questions
like that for sure, but I would

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say first customers from Twitter.

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And, uh, I think it was a really good
fit at the beginning for indie hackers.

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So on Twitter, you know, I think, um,
Ben, you're kind of part of this, this

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sort of developer audience as well.

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There's a lot of developers on
Twitter who are building their own

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products and they're like solo.

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like the only person in the
business and they do everything.

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It was a really great fit
for that audience because.

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Those folks are trying to maximize
their time and, you know, be

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really efficient with their time.

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And Lama Life, of course, helps you focus
and, and make the most of, of your time.

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So, they were very keen to
support it and, and use it.

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Over time, I, I would say that's
not the main audience anymore.

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Over time, it's kind of, it's definitely
more towards sort of an ADHD audience.

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It just gravitated that way.

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And it's completely
not surprising because.

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You know, myself having ADHD,
all the features I put into Lama

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life, like their features I want
because I, cause I need them.

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So I think there's a, there's
a group of features that help

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me, not just one specific one.

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So the thing I like to do is
put a variety of things in.

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So based on how you're feeling at the
time, one thing might work for you.

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Something else might not.

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And that one thing that worked for you
today might not work for you tomorrow.

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So we try and put in like, A lot of little
things that you can pick and choose from

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to help you whatever state you're in.

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But the other thing that made me think
this is actually a business is that,

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like, I would get emails from people.

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So when you sign up for Llama Life,
you get a welcome email from me.

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And I've done this in my previous
businesses as well, but this time,

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like people actually like responded
to the welcome email a lot.

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And when they respond, they don't
just respond like with one line.

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I'm getting essays, like people
are telling me their life story.

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And it's all like, majority of them
are ADHD saying, you know, I've been

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looking for a tool like this and I
just got diagnosed later in life,

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which is what happened with me.

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I was, I was in my thirties
when, when that happened.

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It's so common nowadays for
people to, to struggle with

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stuff and then get a diagnosis.

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And then the whole life just makes sense.

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That's, that's exactly
what happened with me.

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And I'm like, Oh my God.

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So it was very relatable to them because
in my welcome email, I told my story.

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So they were kind of responding
like, Oh, that's my story as well.

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And.

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I love getting these emails back because
it makes me feel validated as well.

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Like they have the same story as me.

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And, um, I think because of that, I
thought, well, there's something here

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because it's obviously resonating with
people, you know, it's still small.

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It's still early days, but there's
definitely something special about this

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business that I've never seen in previous.

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Businesses that I've tried, like,
it was just very clear to me.

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There's something different.

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Marie: It's pretty amazing where you're
at, even given how short the journey is.

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Like I know that they talk about the
long, slow SAS ramp of death, right?

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Where people are chipping away on
their, their software for years

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and years and years before they
finally get a bit of that traction.

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So, uh, it seems like the COVID bubble
was probably a really good timing for you.

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Right.

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That everything kind of culminated.

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Timing of COVID, quitting your job, having
time to devote into that, and then just

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hitting the market at just the right time.

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I imagine it was sort
of like a perfect storm.

229
00:11:26,675 --> 00:11:27,345
Marie Ng: Oh yeah, yeah.

230
00:11:27,345 --> 00:11:29,295
Cause everyone was
working from home, right?

231
00:11:29,295 --> 00:11:33,115
So yeah, we had the indie hacker audience,
but there were definitely some people in

232
00:11:33,115 --> 00:11:35,135
corporate that were like, I'm at home now.

233
00:11:35,435 --> 00:11:38,235
It's really hard working from home
because there's no distinction

234
00:11:38,235 --> 00:11:40,315
between my workday and when that ends.

235
00:11:40,315 --> 00:11:43,545
And then, you know, my evening
or like rolling out of bed

236
00:11:43,745 --> 00:11:44,665
and starting my workday.

237
00:11:44,665 --> 00:11:49,365
So, You know, time was like a challenge
for a lot of people during that period.

238
00:11:49,395 --> 00:11:52,045
So yeah, it was definitely
perfect timing, I guess.

239
00:11:52,195 --> 00:11:54,745
And that's the thing with business,
like some of it's luck as well, right?

240
00:11:54,765 --> 00:11:56,505
Like it was just that that
was a good time for that.

241
00:11:56,805 --> 00:12:01,875
If this product had launched, you know,
before COVID or maybe now, or I might not

242
00:12:01,875 --> 00:12:05,705
have got the same momentum, which maybe
wouldn't lead me to where it is now.

243
00:12:05,705 --> 00:12:05,945
So.

244
00:12:06,585 --> 00:12:09,285
Yeah, a lot of people don't talk about
it, but I think a lot of it's luck as

245
00:12:09,285 --> 00:12:11,205
well, like obviously hard work plus luck.

246
00:12:11,645 --> 00:12:15,165
Benjamin: I'm really curious about,
um, you obviously have this, this,

247
00:12:15,315 --> 00:12:17,535
uh, resonance with folks with ADHD.

248
00:12:17,945 --> 00:12:20,995
Is there anything that you're doing
specifically to sort of leverage that?

249
00:12:20,995 --> 00:12:24,515
Because I, I know that one of
the, another classical thing along

250
00:12:24,515 --> 00:12:28,365
with time blindness with ADHD is
also like oversharing in a sense.

251
00:12:28,665 --> 00:12:32,635
And I think that a lot of ADHDers when
they meet other ADHDers that there's

252
00:12:32,635 --> 00:12:35,715
this immediate resonance and they're just
like, I want to, I want to talk about.

253
00:12:35,780 --> 00:12:38,390
This with you and I want to
connect with you and sort of

254
00:12:38,390 --> 00:12:39,400
like they're in your inbox.

255
00:12:39,430 --> 00:12:41,540
Like Marie, how do I,
how do I get more of you?

256
00:12:41,540 --> 00:12:42,290
How do we connect?

257
00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:48,210
And is there, are you doing anything to
like, to use that, utilize that to drive

258
00:12:48,210 --> 00:12:51,690
like interest in the product or like, is
that, is that like part of your marketing

259
00:12:51,690 --> 00:12:55,320
strategy at this point, specifically
writing content for people with ADHD?

260
00:12:55,330 --> 00:12:55,970
Yeah, yeah,

261
00:12:56,090 --> 00:12:56,660
Marie Ng: for sure.

262
00:12:56,670 --> 00:12:57,140
For sure.

263
00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:01,365
Um, you know, we, The fact that people
respond means they want a connection.

264
00:13:01,615 --> 00:13:04,605
And I, you know, we respond
to every single email.

265
00:13:04,605 --> 00:13:06,375
I responded to all of
them at the beginning.

266
00:13:06,615 --> 00:13:10,915
Now I have two other people working
with me and someone else on my team is

267
00:13:10,915 --> 00:13:12,595
responding, but I, I see them as well.

268
00:13:12,605 --> 00:13:16,285
Like I read all of them, they're coming
into my inbox, but she's responding to

269
00:13:16,285 --> 00:13:21,245
them now, and I'm sort of focusing more
on the overall product and the business

270
00:13:21,245 --> 00:13:26,385
strategy and sort of direction, you know,
community is like a huge thing for us.

271
00:13:26,650 --> 00:13:30,260
So we try and engage with our
community as much as possible.

272
00:13:30,260 --> 00:13:32,300
We try and get feedback
from the community.

273
00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:34,670
We create content for the community.

274
00:13:34,670 --> 00:13:38,940
So that content does have an
ADHD, um, kind of lens on it.

275
00:13:39,220 --> 00:13:42,770
We actually don't market
it as an ADHD product.

276
00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:48,620
That was a really conscious decision
because there are customers that do not

277
00:13:48,630 --> 00:13:51,240
have ADHD who love our product as well.

278
00:13:51,250 --> 00:13:52,760
So there's kind of these two groups.

279
00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:56,640
There's a group, the ADHD group, and
then there's a group of people who,

280
00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:00,625
um, Um, don't have ADHD, but they
just want to be super productive.

281
00:14:00,665 --> 00:14:04,115
Like they just want to make the
most of every second of the day.

282
00:14:04,655 --> 00:14:08,675
And so we're constantly kind of trying
to make sure we fit these two groups,

283
00:14:08,805 --> 00:14:13,045
but our main group is definitely ADHD
because that's the group that I know.

284
00:14:13,095 --> 00:14:16,035
And that is, I'm, I'm
just really close to that.

285
00:14:16,035 --> 00:14:16,665
And that's kind of.

286
00:14:17,635 --> 00:14:20,785
I think all the features that go
into it are really angled that way.

287
00:14:20,785 --> 00:14:26,855
So they might help other people, but we
wouldn't change to become like a, like

288
00:14:26,855 --> 00:14:30,685
hardcore, uh, I'll give you an example,
like a hardcore productivity tool where

289
00:14:30,835 --> 00:14:34,775
There's, there's, there's another tool,
which I won't name, but it's kind of, it's

290
00:14:34,775 --> 00:14:37,615
really good, but it focuses on metrics.

291
00:14:37,635 --> 00:14:40,385
So it'll say like, here's
all the stuff that you did.

292
00:14:40,525 --> 00:14:42,325
And it's all almost overwhelming for me.

293
00:14:42,325 --> 00:14:45,875
Like it'll list them out and I go,
you spent this much amount of time and

294
00:14:45,885 --> 00:14:48,895
you were 20 percent more productive
today than you were yesterday.

295
00:14:49,395 --> 00:14:52,535
And that can be really great
for some people and very

296
00:14:52,535 --> 00:14:57,115
motivating, but I don't think it's
motivating for an ADHD audience.

297
00:14:57,455 --> 00:14:59,815
Um, and I'm sort of speaking
in general terms here.

298
00:14:59,835 --> 00:15:02,805
Maybe there are a couple of
ADHD is that would like that,

299
00:15:03,125 --> 00:15:04,505
but that's not our product.

300
00:15:04,515 --> 00:15:08,855
So I'm really clear on the direction
that I want this product to go.

301
00:15:09,075 --> 00:15:10,645
And so unless we get like.

302
00:15:11,205 --> 00:15:14,035
An overwhelming majority
of people asking for it.

303
00:15:14,045 --> 00:15:14,685
We won't do it.

304
00:15:15,235 --> 00:15:17,675
And I think that's kind of what
makes a good product as well.

305
00:15:17,675 --> 00:15:19,785
Like, you know, exactly
what you want it to be.

306
00:15:20,165 --> 00:15:24,905
And I'm so close to that product that
like that's the vision and that's what

307
00:15:24,905 --> 00:15:26,685
it that's, it's staying like that.

308
00:15:26,745 --> 00:15:30,515
And if it's not for you, then, you
know, you can try a different product.

309
00:15:30,525 --> 00:15:32,965
And we've actually recommended
other products for people.

310
00:15:33,335 --> 00:15:37,075
When they're trying to make our
product fit something else, there's

311
00:15:37,075 --> 00:15:38,865
no shortage of productivity tools.

312
00:15:38,875 --> 00:15:40,675
It's a very crowded category.

313
00:15:40,675 --> 00:15:42,395
So I'm sure there's
something for everyone.

314
00:15:42,395 --> 00:15:43,815
And this is kind of the niche, like.

315
00:15:43,980 --> 00:15:45,800
Yeah,

316
00:15:46,380 --> 00:15:49,720
Benjamin: I think those opinionated
products can be super handy,

317
00:15:49,770 --> 00:15:52,700
um, but sometimes, yeah, you're
going to run into that, that

318
00:15:52,700 --> 00:15:54,610
wall of, of opinion a little bit.

319
00:15:54,610 --> 00:15:57,670
And if you want to deviate from
that, you've either got to find

320
00:15:57,670 --> 00:16:00,830
something else or build it yourself,
even if it gets to the point where

321
00:16:00,830 --> 00:16:02,300
you need something really specific.

322
00:16:02,300 --> 00:16:05,750
So yeah, it's a tough, tough,
tough road for some customers,

323
00:16:05,750 --> 00:16:06,990
it can be really challenging.

324
00:16:07,380 --> 00:16:07,780
Marie Ng: Yeah.

325
00:16:07,780 --> 00:16:10,570
And I think maybe one thing that
makes it easier for me to go,

326
00:16:10,570 --> 00:16:12,140
we're staying the course is that.

327
00:16:12,610 --> 00:16:14,800
I can't remember if you mentioned
this in the beginning or not,

328
00:16:14,810 --> 00:16:17,340
but, um, we are funded now, right?

329
00:16:17,340 --> 00:16:21,510
So we started off as a bootstrap company
and bootstrapping just meaning, you

330
00:16:21,510 --> 00:16:23,310
know, you're funding everything yourself.

331
00:16:23,310 --> 00:16:25,050
Like it's coming out of your own savings.

332
00:16:25,470 --> 00:16:26,340
Uh, and it's more personal.

333
00:16:26,390 --> 00:16:28,420
It's like gets personal then sometimes.

334
00:16:28,420 --> 00:16:31,840
Like I think it affects decision
making sometimes because it's personal.

335
00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:35,650
And if you have a group of people,
maybe these productivity folks

336
00:16:35,660 --> 00:16:38,530
that are trying to level up and you
have an ADHD group and they're kind

337
00:16:38,530 --> 00:16:40,080
of asking for different features.

338
00:16:40,610 --> 00:16:45,980
There is a temptation as, at least for me,
as a bootstrap founder to go, Hmm, that

339
00:16:45,980 --> 00:16:49,970
person wants to pay for the product, but
they'll only pay if I add that feature.

340
00:16:50,260 --> 00:16:53,160
So, I'm going to add it,
um, because I need that.

341
00:16:54,150 --> 00:16:58,250
So, the fact that it's, Mum
Life is funded now, it does

342
00:16:58,700 --> 00:17:00,550
take off some of that pressure.

343
00:17:01,070 --> 00:17:04,540
There's other benefits of funding too,
but I think one of them maybe, like

344
00:17:04,540 --> 00:17:09,000
I actually haven't heard people talk
about this part, but It helps me focus

345
00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:10,700
and stay the course with the product.

346
00:17:11,070 --> 00:17:14,700
That's not to say we won't change it
depending on, you know, the feedback

347
00:17:14,700 --> 00:17:18,685
we get and, It, but it's got to be
like overwhelming majority of feedback.

348
00:17:18,685 --> 00:17:21,475
It can't just be like, Ooh, I, you know,
that person wants to give me money.

349
00:17:21,475 --> 00:17:23,265
I'll go and add that thing.

350
00:17:23,555 --> 00:17:25,845
It's much easier to say,
no, this is what we are.

351
00:17:25,955 --> 00:17:27,475
This is, this is who we're building for.

352
00:17:27,475 --> 00:17:30,765
And, you know, sorry, like I'll recommend
you check out that other product.

353
00:17:31,135 --> 00:17:33,575
It's much easier for me to
say that now than before.

354
00:17:35,175 --> 00:17:38,515
Benjamin: Yeah, I think we, we experienced
that a lot when we were building our

355
00:17:38,605 --> 00:17:43,405
course platform, where I spent, um,
I spent about a month building, uh, a

356
00:17:43,425 --> 00:17:47,655
discourse integration where when you
join the course, you'd be added to

357
00:17:47,655 --> 00:17:50,025
certain, uh, Certain areas of the forum.

358
00:17:50,025 --> 00:17:52,325
So, and we started building
out these integrations with

359
00:17:52,325 --> 00:17:53,425
different forums and stuff.

360
00:17:53,455 --> 00:17:57,595
And this came from one person just
saying, Hey, we use discourse, not

361
00:17:57,595 --> 00:17:59,025
the thing that you currently support.

362
00:17:59,035 --> 00:18:00,625
Like, would you consider doing this?

363
00:18:01,025 --> 00:18:04,755
And in order to convince that customer
to pay for the software, I built

364
00:18:04,775 --> 00:18:07,415
out this integration that ended
up taking me like a month of time.

365
00:18:07,715 --> 00:18:10,845
And they were one of two customers
that ever used that integration.

366
00:18:10,855 --> 00:18:13,835
So it's a little bit like, yeah,
that was a, that was a waste of time.

367
00:18:14,295 --> 00:18:15,255
Maybe, maybe not.

368
00:18:15,355 --> 00:18:17,225
Marie: Can you share a
little bit about that?

369
00:18:17,730 --> 00:18:20,740
Process of, of getting to the
decision where you decided to

370
00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,970
take on funding and even, was that
something that you sought out?

371
00:18:23,980 --> 00:18:26,760
Did someone find you like, what
did, I don't know anything about

372
00:18:26,770 --> 00:18:28,910
that whole side of, of business.

373
00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,340
So I'd love to hear kind of
what led you to that decision.

374
00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:33,800
Marie Ng: I, I didn't know
a lot about it either.

375
00:18:33,810 --> 00:18:38,230
When, um, you know, before this, I,
I did have another startup before.

376
00:18:38,260 --> 00:18:42,270
Um, and that got a small, I don't even
know if you want to call it funding.

377
00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:43,970
Like it got a small, um, amount of.

378
00:18:44,510 --> 00:18:47,410
Yeah, a small little like check for that.

379
00:18:47,810 --> 00:18:50,940
Um, but that's pretty much the only,
the only experience I had before this.

380
00:18:50,980 --> 00:18:54,790
And, uh, you know, before when I said
like Lama life kind of just happened very

381
00:18:54,790 --> 00:18:59,120
naturally and very sort of serendipitous,
the funding was serendipitous as well.

382
00:18:59,260 --> 00:19:06,085
So what happened was I was building
in public on Twitter and, uh, I, uh,

383
00:19:06,185 --> 00:19:10,725
at this point it was just myself and
Lama Life had, was going to move from

384
00:19:10,725 --> 00:19:12,995
a one time payment to subscriptions.

385
00:19:13,415 --> 00:19:15,405
So what I did was I posted
on Twitter, because you can't

386
00:19:15,405 --> 00:19:16,505
just take that away, right?

387
00:19:16,505 --> 00:19:18,325
You have to say, Hey, this is happening.

388
00:19:18,325 --> 00:19:23,395
Just letting everyone know, um,
Lama Life's one time payment is

389
00:19:23,415 --> 00:19:28,035
finishing next, you 24 hours, we're
going to shift over to subscription.

390
00:19:28,430 --> 00:19:31,100
But if you get the one time payment
now, um, you can keep it, you know,

391
00:19:31,360 --> 00:19:34,990
we always grandfather in the old,
the older plans or a lower plan.

392
00:19:35,660 --> 00:19:36,020
And so

393
00:19:36,020 --> 00:19:37,650
Marie: I just Is that a
lifetime subscription?

394
00:19:37,730 --> 00:19:38,780
Like they bought one time

395
00:19:38,780 --> 00:19:39,750
Marie Ng: and then you have it forever.

396
00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:40,090
Sure.

397
00:19:40,090 --> 00:19:40,340
Yeah.

398
00:19:40,340 --> 00:19:40,840
Lifetime.

399
00:19:40,850 --> 00:19:43,760
Lifetime of the product, obviously
not the person's lifetime, but

400
00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:47,440
yeah, um, one time payment, um, as
long as the product is, is alive.

401
00:19:48,330 --> 00:19:50,115
And I just put this tweet up.

402
00:19:50,135 --> 00:19:51,595
I literally, I didn't even think about it.

403
00:19:51,685 --> 00:19:53,445
I just put this tweet up
and then I shut Twitter.

404
00:19:54,065 --> 00:19:56,845
And then all, like a couple of
minutes later, I started getting

405
00:19:56,855 --> 00:19:59,555
like all these Stripe notifications.

406
00:19:59,565 --> 00:20:02,985
So we use Stripe as our payment
processor and I'm like, what's going on?

407
00:20:03,395 --> 00:20:06,950
And so then I went back to Twitter
and I could see that that That

408
00:20:06,950 --> 00:20:09,870
tweet just got shared like crazy.

409
00:20:09,900 --> 00:20:10,630
Like it was going crazy.

410
00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:11,570
It was definitely from Twitter.

411
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,260
That was the only place I put
it and it was like a switch.

412
00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:19,320
And I'm like, Oh my God, my, my database
crashed because it just couldn't

413
00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:21,140
handle the simultaneous connections.

414
00:20:21,670 --> 00:20:23,440
And keep in mind, I was a really new dev.

415
00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:25,350
So I was just like, Oh my
God, what is happening?

416
00:20:25,380 --> 00:20:26,605
Like, How do I fix this?

417
00:20:26,625 --> 00:20:27,935
It was really stressful.

418
00:20:28,565 --> 00:20:35,015
But what happened was somebody from
a, um, a startup accelerator, uh, and

419
00:20:35,015 --> 00:20:39,905
they also have a VC fund, saw this
one time thing and they purchased it

420
00:20:40,455 --> 00:20:42,235
and they really liked the product.

421
00:20:42,355 --> 00:20:45,525
So they DM'd me on Twitter and they
said, Hey, have you ever thought

422
00:20:45,525 --> 00:20:46,745
about raising money for this?

423
00:20:47,140 --> 00:20:48,830
Um, or joining an accelerator.

424
00:20:48,830 --> 00:20:53,490
And, and I, to be honest, I didn't even
reply to them for, I think, 48 hours

425
00:20:53,490 --> 00:20:56,090
because I was just too overwhelmed with
all the other stuff that was happening.

426
00:20:56,590 --> 00:20:59,550
And then I got back to them
and I said, I actually wasn't

427
00:20:59,550 --> 00:21:00,890
thinking of raising money for it.

428
00:21:00,890 --> 00:21:02,030
I was going to bootstrap this.

429
00:21:02,495 --> 00:21:04,105
But they're like, do you
want to have a chat anyway?

430
00:21:04,105 --> 00:21:10,385
So I had a chat with them and they kind of
convinced me to apply for the accelerator.

431
00:21:10,945 --> 00:21:15,015
So the accelerator program, there's many
different accelerators for startups.

432
00:21:15,015 --> 00:21:15,815
It's very similar.

433
00:21:16,175 --> 00:21:20,195
Um, it was called launch and it's
run by Jason Calacanis, who's

434
00:21:20,195 --> 00:21:21,515
a really big angel investor.

435
00:21:21,955 --> 00:21:22,525
And.

436
00:21:22,970 --> 00:21:26,270
Um, launch had, I think
it was a 12 week program.

437
00:21:26,330 --> 00:21:31,390
It's very similar to other, um,
accelerators where you do 12 weeks

438
00:21:31,390 --> 00:21:34,230
and then you kind of do demo day
at the end and you pitch and, you

439
00:21:34,230 --> 00:21:35,580
know, potentially raise more money.

440
00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:37,880
And so I applied for the accelerator.

441
00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:43,800
I got into that and at the end of the
accelerator, we did demo day and I

442
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,280
launched, I, sorry, I raised money shortly
after that and it sounds so simple,

443
00:21:47,300 --> 00:21:52,040
but it was such a, it was so stressful
because I felt like I had to learn.

444
00:21:53,065 --> 00:21:54,405
All of this investment stuff.

445
00:21:55,970 --> 00:21:56,450
Overnight.

446
00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,450
And you're always at a disadvantage
because when you, when you talk to

447
00:21:59,450 --> 00:22:03,050
investors, that's their day job,
like that's what they do and you're

448
00:22:03,060 --> 00:22:04,260
coming in and you've never done it.

449
00:22:04,710 --> 00:22:07,560
And there's all these fancy terms that
are being thrown around and you don't

450
00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:09,050
want to sound stupid on the call.

451
00:22:09,590 --> 00:22:12,690
And so you're like, I don't
know what I'm talking about.

452
00:22:13,070 --> 00:22:16,190
Like they're throwing all these numbers
around and I'm like, I have no idea.

453
00:22:16,210 --> 00:22:19,980
So yeah, there was a lot
of watching YouTube videos.

454
00:22:19,980 --> 00:22:20,940
I went back to YouTube.

455
00:22:20,940 --> 00:22:26,140
I'm like looking at all these, um, you
know, how to raise money videos and had

456
00:22:26,140 --> 00:22:29,320
the accelerator as well so I could ask
them questions so that obviously helped.

457
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:34,380
Yeah, it was super stressful and we
ended up, uh, raising a pre seed round.

458
00:22:34,650 --> 00:22:37,800
So in the grand scheme of
things, it's very small.

459
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:39,510
You kind of have these different stages.

460
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,400
You might have heard these terms being
thrown around like series A, series B.

461
00:22:43,750 --> 00:22:46,640
So you basically start from,
usually people start from a

462
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,600
family and friends round, which
is exactly what it sounds like.

463
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:51,260
You're getting money
from family and friends.

464
00:22:51,730 --> 00:22:56,175
I personally don't like doing that because
Like, what if something doesn't work out

465
00:22:56,175 --> 00:22:57,855
and 99 percent of the time it doesn't?

466
00:22:57,855 --> 00:23:01,215
I don't want to feel like tension
between, you know, any family and friends.

467
00:23:01,245 --> 00:23:04,095
I said no to my family and
friends because they did offer.

468
00:23:04,735 --> 00:23:10,045
After that you have a pre seed round, a
seed round, series A, series B and the

469
00:23:10,425 --> 00:23:11,580
main difference is like it's, it's easier.

470
00:23:12,090 --> 00:23:13,930
It's more, more money each time.

471
00:23:14,260 --> 00:23:17,810
And, uh, the stakes are obviously
like a lot higher each time.

472
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,660
And, you know, there might be different
like conditions, maybe like a board

473
00:23:21,660 --> 00:23:23,780
seat or something like that each time.

474
00:23:23,830 --> 00:23:26,310
It depends how much money you need.

475
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:27,630
It depends on the business.

476
00:23:28,150 --> 00:23:31,670
Like a lot of businesses say
you're doing something like

477
00:23:31,670 --> 00:23:36,340
Uber is very capital intensive
because you need to hire drivers.

478
00:23:36,955 --> 00:23:40,325
Lamalife is not capital
intensive because it's software.

479
00:23:40,715 --> 00:23:46,325
The main cost is like employee salaries,
but it's not like we have physical costs.

480
00:23:46,515 --> 00:23:51,865
It's not like we have to maintain a,
you know, community of drivers like,

481
00:23:51,885 --> 00:23:53,735
like Uber does and have both sides.

482
00:23:54,035 --> 00:23:54,665
So we.

483
00:23:55,250 --> 00:23:57,270
You don't want to raise
more money than you need.

484
00:23:57,770 --> 00:24:00,030
And also investors won't give
you more money than you need.

485
00:24:00,030 --> 00:24:01,820
So there's also that, that side of it too.

486
00:24:03,100 --> 00:24:06,530
The great thing about it is that it
allowed me to hire a team because there's

487
00:24:06,530 --> 00:24:11,960
no way I could have afforded, there's
no way I could afford to hire a team.

488
00:24:12,050 --> 00:24:13,100
Um, if I didn't have that.

489
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,650
Hire a team in advance
of where the product is.

490
00:24:16,650 --> 00:24:19,620
You know, I think that's the main
difference when you're bootstrapping,

491
00:24:19,780 --> 00:24:23,840
you don't want to spend more than you
have, but it's easier to do that with

492
00:24:23,850 --> 00:24:26,760
the VC funding because you've got
that money and that's what it's for.

493
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:28,050
They want you to spend the money.

494
00:24:28,070 --> 00:24:29,180
They don't want you to sit on it.

495
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:30,540
Like it's there to be spent.

496
00:24:30,900 --> 00:24:32,430
On something, how much influence

497
00:24:32,430 --> 00:24:35,190
Marie: do they have in terms
of where that money goes?

498
00:24:35,490 --> 00:24:38,600
And I'm sure some of that happened
through the accelerator where

499
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:40,610
you're like, okay, here's what
the growth plan would look like.

500
00:24:40,610 --> 00:24:41,780
Here's kind of the trajectory.

501
00:24:41,780 --> 00:24:42,470
But yeah.

502
00:24:42,470 --> 00:24:46,400
I'm curious kind of what was that
going from one to, I think you said

503
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,100
you're a team of a team of three
now, or do you have three employees

504
00:24:49,105 --> 00:24:49,400
Marie Ng: now?

505
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:50,210
I've got two.

506
00:24:50,210 --> 00:24:51,050
Two employees.

507
00:24:51,050 --> 00:24:52,695
So we're, we're total of three.

508
00:24:53,380 --> 00:24:56,580
Yeah, this is a question I get a lot
actually, like how much, how much sort

509
00:24:56,580 --> 00:24:58,540
of um, influence on the decision making.

510
00:24:58,910 --> 00:25:06,040
Currently, like, they, they will give me
suggestions and if I ask for something

511
00:25:06,050 --> 00:25:11,030
or I ask for help, currently like I'm
making all the decisions at the moment.

512
00:25:11,435 --> 00:25:13,405
And there have been a couple
of suggestions which have

513
00:25:13,405 --> 00:25:16,325
completely just gone 180 against.

514
00:25:17,825 --> 00:25:23,595
I don't know if that will change as
the series or the round gets larger.

515
00:25:24,195 --> 00:25:25,535
Because that's why there's
a board seat, right?

516
00:25:25,545 --> 00:25:28,125
Like that's why there's
more influence that way.

517
00:25:28,435 --> 00:25:30,815
Right now we don't have a
board, we're too small for that.

518
00:25:31,045 --> 00:25:33,835
And it's just too much overhead and
it would not make sense at all to

519
00:25:33,835 --> 00:25:37,255
be doing that kind of administrative
overlay and it wouldn't help either.

520
00:25:37,725 --> 00:25:39,305
So right now I have a lot of freedom.

521
00:25:40,085 --> 00:25:41,125
We just do whatever we want.

522
00:25:42,405 --> 00:25:43,665
So I don't know if that changes.

523
00:25:43,665 --> 00:25:46,925
I'm just speaking from my level at
the moment, but, uh, with, and I don't

524
00:25:46,945 --> 00:25:51,055
know if it depends on the investor as
well, because I have heard, I think

525
00:25:51,055 --> 00:25:53,905
where the question might be coming
from is that like, I have heard

526
00:25:53,915 --> 00:25:58,335
this, that, um, and there's very
public stories about this as well.

527
00:25:58,405 --> 00:26:00,695
There's a TV series on Uber.

528
00:26:01,700 --> 00:26:04,580
And I can't remember what it's
called right now, but it was

529
00:26:04,580 --> 00:26:06,500
like a six part TV series.

530
00:26:06,900 --> 00:26:11,390
It's based on true life events, but it's,
it's fictional in that the characters,

531
00:26:11,550 --> 00:26:15,070
there's actors playing, you know, the
roles, but they, they show that the

532
00:26:15,070 --> 00:26:16,930
investors have a lot of influence in that.

533
00:26:17,530 --> 00:26:20,570
And there was conflict between
the founder and the investors.

534
00:26:21,380 --> 00:26:26,930
So it's not unheard of, but right
now I'm not feeling that at all.

535
00:26:28,135 --> 00:26:29,005
That's incredible.

536
00:26:29,485 --> 00:26:33,085
Benjamin: What were the, the two
folks that you hired, what were the

537
00:26:33,085 --> 00:26:35,125
first roles that you filled and Yeah.

538
00:26:35,125 --> 00:26:36,475
And why did you fill those roles?

539
00:26:36,825 --> 00:26:39,855
Marie Ng: Yeah, so the first
role I filled is a content

540
00:26:39,945 --> 00:26:41,805
community and partnerships role.

541
00:26:41,925 --> 00:26:43,635
So there's three parts to that role.

542
00:26:43,695 --> 00:26:46,305
Um, you know, in corporate you'd
probably have three people doing

543
00:26:46,305 --> 00:26:52,095
it, but, um, the role is, is more
basically complimenting my own skills.

544
00:26:52,930 --> 00:26:55,570
Because I was focusing more
on the product and dev.

545
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:57,540
Um, I can do marketing as well.

546
00:26:57,540 --> 00:27:00,040
That's kind of my background, the
branding and advertising stuff.

547
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,330
I really needed someone
to kind of fill that gap.

548
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:04,060
So.

549
00:27:04,705 --> 00:27:08,955
She creates a lot of social media
content, looks after the community.

550
00:27:08,955 --> 00:27:12,725
So it starts responding to all the
support requests and the welcome emails

551
00:27:12,755 --> 00:27:18,205
and creating like, um, help articles
and blog pieces, uh, SEO, that kind of

552
00:27:18,205 --> 00:27:20,445
stuff, and then working with partners.

553
00:27:20,455 --> 00:27:21,775
So we.

554
00:27:22,025 --> 00:27:26,475
You know, we will work with influencers
in the ADHD space and figure out

555
00:27:26,475 --> 00:27:29,345
like, what's something that we can
do together that might be a win win.

556
00:27:29,815 --> 00:27:33,365
Um, or we might pay somebody to
create a video for Llama Life and

557
00:27:33,365 --> 00:27:34,755
put it on their, their Instagram.

558
00:27:35,255 --> 00:27:38,485
So she would organize those
and manage those relationships.

559
00:27:38,665 --> 00:27:43,295
And I would focus on doing dev,
design, product, all the business

560
00:27:43,335 --> 00:27:46,885
admin, which people don't talk
about, but it's, it exists and it's

561
00:27:46,885 --> 00:27:50,075
a headache and it's my least favorite
thing in the whole world, but.

562
00:27:50,540 --> 00:27:52,810
It's there and it has to be taken care of.

563
00:27:52,830 --> 00:27:54,360
So I do that as well.

564
00:27:54,910 --> 00:27:59,020
Um, so she was the first one I hired
and I've known her for a long time.

565
00:27:59,090 --> 00:28:02,710
So I will say hiring is
like the hardest thing ever.

566
00:28:03,610 --> 00:28:08,470
It is so time consuming and you
know, it's really hard to get the

567
00:28:08,470 --> 00:28:12,730
right fit, but I had worked with
her for two years in corporate.

568
00:28:13,300 --> 00:28:17,600
So I already knew her strengths
and I knew that we could get along.

569
00:28:17,610 --> 00:28:19,300
We were actually in the same team.

570
00:28:19,595 --> 00:28:20,755
So we did work together.

571
00:28:21,315 --> 00:28:25,085
So we already sort of tried and tested
some of that, which is so, so important

572
00:28:25,085 --> 00:28:29,165
because, you know, it's very hard to
assess from an interview, talking to

573
00:28:29,165 --> 00:28:33,275
someone for half an hour, a couple of
times that you can actually work together.

574
00:28:34,065 --> 00:28:39,840
And even with that, we had some struggles
at the beginning because Um, she had never

575
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:45,180
worked in a startup and the time frame or
time scale that she had to do things was

576
00:28:45,180 --> 00:28:47,880
very different to what I was expecting.

577
00:28:48,340 --> 00:28:51,180
And the way to think about
something was very different.

578
00:28:51,500 --> 00:28:52,880
But she is amazing now.

579
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:57,550
Like, it probably took about six months
to really kind of find like that groove.

580
00:28:58,330 --> 00:28:58,965
And that's, that's what I'm proud of.

581
00:28:59,365 --> 00:29:00,925
With knowing each other as well.

582
00:29:00,925 --> 00:29:02,095
So imagine if you didn't know each other.

583
00:29:02,645 --> 00:29:04,435
So she's the first one I hired.

584
00:29:04,465 --> 00:29:09,715
And then the second one that I hired is
another dev, but he's way better than me.

585
00:29:09,755 --> 00:29:13,615
So like the whole point is to get a,
you know, a dev that's like way better

586
00:29:13,615 --> 00:29:14,925
and I can learn from him as well.

587
00:29:15,355 --> 00:29:18,105
So the way we divide up the
work right now is that she's

588
00:29:18,105 --> 00:29:19,535
content community partnerships.

589
00:29:20,285 --> 00:29:21,575
He's just dev.

590
00:29:21,605 --> 00:29:25,905
And so he does a full stack,
but more front end stuff.

591
00:29:26,535 --> 00:29:28,255
We're both sort of more front end, but.

592
00:29:28,510 --> 00:29:32,990
We have to do backend as well, just
part of it, but he focuses more on

593
00:29:32,990 --> 00:29:37,560
the mobile app and I'm focusing more
on our web, our desktop web products.

594
00:29:38,110 --> 00:29:40,230
And obviously the two kind of
overlap a bit and they share this,

595
00:29:40,270 --> 00:29:41,510
they share the same database.

596
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:44,450
That's kind of how we split
up the work at the moment.

597
00:29:44,770 --> 00:29:48,100
Uh, I do design as well and all
that, the business admin stuff.

598
00:29:49,180 --> 00:29:49,590
So, or do

599
00:29:49,590 --> 00:29:52,100
Marie: you do most of the design
because you have that sort

600
00:29:52,100 --> 00:29:53,070
of branding background too?

601
00:29:53,110 --> 00:29:55,450
Because like your product,
it looks delightful,

602
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:55,700
Marie Ng: right?

603
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:56,760
Oh, thank you.

604
00:29:57,290 --> 00:29:58,730
Yeah, I do all of the design.

605
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,170
I actually don't have
a background in design.

606
00:30:01,170 --> 00:30:04,260
So when I was doing the branding
advertising stuff, it was more

607
00:30:04,260 --> 00:30:05,530
from a research perspective.

608
00:30:05,910 --> 00:30:10,835
So we would work with large brands, like
You know, Coca Cola, L'Oreal, Amex, like

609
00:30:10,885 --> 00:30:17,785
really big brands and we would analyze
how well their advertising was performing.

610
00:30:18,375 --> 00:30:20,475
So I was not creating the ads.

611
00:30:20,525 --> 00:30:21,945
I was analyzing the ads.

612
00:30:21,955 --> 00:30:24,275
So there's a lot of like numbers
and like writing PowerPoint

613
00:30:24,275 --> 00:30:25,555
reports and stuff like that.

614
00:30:26,285 --> 00:30:30,675
Um, so I never did design properly,
but I just, I just like, I like design

615
00:30:30,675 --> 00:30:34,115
and I, I guess I just look at stuff
and I, I don't have any formal stuff.

616
00:30:34,115 --> 00:30:35,725
I can just look at it and
go, I think that looks nice.

617
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:37,930
It's not pixel perfect.

618
00:30:37,970 --> 00:30:40,870
I don't like go, Oh, that's one pixel
that I just kind of put it together.

619
00:30:40,870 --> 00:30:44,400
And like, I'm sure it could be better, but
we're kind of just like, Oh no, that needs

620
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:45,790
to be like a little bit more to the left.

621
00:30:46,460 --> 00:30:48,200
And then I look and I go,
yeah, that looks good.

622
00:30:48,870 --> 00:30:52,510
I'm so glad you said the product feels
fun because that's kind of one of our

623
00:30:52,510 --> 00:30:56,780
things is like, we like to have fun
and we want our product to be fun.

624
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:58,640
We take our job very seriously.

625
00:30:58,940 --> 00:31:02,360
But we want this to feel and
we want to have, you know,

626
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:03,590
feel like we're having fun.

627
00:31:04,110 --> 00:31:07,660
And, um, I think that's what
differentiates it from other

628
00:31:07,970 --> 00:31:09,220
productivity tools as well.

629
00:31:09,220 --> 00:31:11,600
Like we have a very distinct
vibe for the products.

630
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,530
And I guess even like one,
one small example is when you

631
00:31:15,530 --> 00:31:17,240
complete a task, you get confetti.

632
00:31:17,830 --> 00:31:19,800
Each task itself is quite big.

633
00:31:20,170 --> 00:31:21,100
That's by design.

634
00:31:21,110 --> 00:31:25,980
Like, cause we want it to feel not
overwhelming and we want to feel playful.

635
00:31:26,020 --> 00:31:26,750
And that's why.

636
00:31:27,460 --> 00:31:32,010
Like, you can only see a certain number of
tasks on a, on a screen at any one time.

637
00:31:32,550 --> 00:31:34,990
And we've had other people go,
can you fit more stuff on there?

638
00:31:35,050 --> 00:31:38,430
I'm like, no, no, we're not doing that
because it changes the feel straight away.

639
00:31:38,670 --> 00:31:39,500
Absolutely.

640
00:31:39,860 --> 00:31:40,350
Benjamin: Yeah.

641
00:31:40,350 --> 00:31:40,740
Yeah.

642
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:46,280
I think that was a big part of, you
know, Marie's own and ours, um, joy,

643
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:50,420
the, the joy that I think notion allowed
us to bring to, to the work being

644
00:31:50,420 --> 00:31:53,930
done, that it isn't just a list that
we're checking things off, but we can

645
00:31:53,930 --> 00:31:56,360
actually, the list might be a visual tool.

646
00:31:56,820 --> 00:31:58,870
You know, graph of information.

647
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,910
It might be a gallery of
images and you can look at your

648
00:32:01,910 --> 00:32:03,140
information in different ways.

649
00:32:03,140 --> 00:32:07,010
And I, I really love how much
you do that work in public.

650
00:32:07,030 --> 00:32:11,290
There's a lot of these, I think when
you were designing, say the mobile

651
00:32:11,290 --> 00:32:13,680
app, there was all these little
touches where I remember hitting

652
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,880
this page where you could like click
the llama a bunch of times and, and.

653
00:32:17,135 --> 00:32:19,085
There was these little badges
that popped up all over.

654
00:32:19,525 --> 00:32:23,055
I think it's that it's that sense of
delight that like keeps people like, you

655
00:32:23,055 --> 00:32:26,865
know, there's a little, that little bit
of fun is always really important for

656
00:32:27,175 --> 00:32:29,115
especially for people with like ADHD.

657
00:32:29,115 --> 00:32:31,825
It's that it's something
to keep them motivated.

658
00:32:31,835 --> 00:32:34,145
That's outside of just
the doing the work thing.

659
00:32:34,145 --> 00:32:37,545
There's something that goes
alongside it that keeps it.

660
00:32:37,855 --> 00:32:39,415
Keeps you engaged in some kind of

661
00:32:39,415 --> 00:32:40,015
Marie Ng: different way.

662
00:32:40,105 --> 00:32:41,835
Yeah, that's that's definitely the goal.

663
00:32:41,865 --> 00:32:46,095
But it's also it also helps me because
sometimes I'll say to the team, like, I

664
00:32:46,095 --> 00:32:47,885
need a little side project to work on.

665
00:32:48,175 --> 00:32:51,485
So that mobile page that you're talking
about with the toggle and little colorful

666
00:32:51,495 --> 00:32:53,685
badges coming up, that was from that.

667
00:32:53,705 --> 00:32:54,495
I was like, I need.

668
00:32:55,085 --> 00:32:56,475
I need something different.

669
00:32:56,495 --> 00:32:59,095
Like I want to work on a
project that's contained.

670
00:32:59,115 --> 00:33:03,925
We'll be very quick to do, um, you know,
just like a couple of days, uh, even less

671
00:33:03,925 --> 00:33:07,225
sometimes, but we don't want to waste it.

672
00:33:07,235 --> 00:33:09,975
So we always go, okay, well, what's
something that we can do that we

673
00:33:09,975 --> 00:33:13,435
need for our product anyway, and
that's why we created, so what

674
00:33:13,435 --> 00:33:18,125
you're talking about is a, it's a
page to sign up for our newsletter.

675
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:20,390
On any mobile updates.

676
00:33:20,910 --> 00:33:23,260
And I was like, well, why don't
we make the page really, you

677
00:33:23,260 --> 00:33:24,670
know, cool and fun and stuff.

678
00:33:24,930 --> 00:33:26,670
And that way I'll get my fix.

679
00:33:26,670 --> 00:33:30,860
Like I'll get, you know, I'll satisfy
my thing where I get super restless.

680
00:33:30,860 --> 00:33:32,940
If I don't have that, I'm
like, I need something.

681
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:37,630
And, but I want to make sure we
can reuse it and it makes sense for

682
00:33:37,630 --> 00:33:41,310
the business, but it still ticks
my boxes, which is a short project.

683
00:33:41,780 --> 00:33:42,880
It can be really fun.

684
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:43,720
It's really contained.

685
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:44,990
It's not going to mess up anything.

686
00:33:45,490 --> 00:33:47,840
And it's really easy for me
to go away and just do it.

687
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:49,330
I didn't need the other guys to kind of.

688
00:33:49,870 --> 00:33:53,860
Be involved as much and I take
my boxes and it also takes the

689
00:33:53,860 --> 00:33:56,260
business boxes and everybody's happy

690
00:33:57,430 --> 00:33:58,400
Benjamin: That's so cool.

691
00:33:58,730 --> 00:34:03,370
I was gonna actually segue into asking
you about what your life is like as a

692
00:34:03,370 --> 00:34:10,485
founder with ADHD Marie as another founder
with ADHD we talk about this all the

693
00:34:10,485 --> 00:34:16,890
time We have very different Protocols
and communication methodologies that

694
00:34:16,890 --> 00:34:21,170
we've workshopped over many years working
together that kind of, you know, we talk

695
00:34:21,170 --> 00:34:26,810
a lot about the best way to get Marie's
attention or how do we, you know, how do

696
00:34:26,810 --> 00:34:31,115
we How do we get Marie doing the work that
she really wants to do because when she's

697
00:34:31,115 --> 00:34:35,275
doing the work that she really wants to
do, it's, it's going to be amazing, right?

698
00:34:35,345 --> 00:34:40,025
But there's also this thing of like,
of sometimes I need Marie to focus on

699
00:34:40,025 --> 00:34:41,465
something that she doesn't want to do.

700
00:34:41,845 --> 00:34:47,700
And in that case, it can, there can be
challenges, challenges in terms of, yeah.

701
00:34:48,100 --> 00:34:52,870
So I'm curious if you specifically
working with your, your coworkers, do

702
00:34:52,870 --> 00:34:56,560
you have any things or systems that
you've developed or ways of working

703
00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:01,660
with them now that they're on board that
kind of work around or work in tandem

704
00:35:01,660 --> 00:35:06,660
with, you know, your flavor of executive
dysfunction as it pertains to ADHD?

705
00:35:07,620 --> 00:35:07,900
Marie Ng: Yeah.

706
00:35:07,900 --> 00:35:10,590
I think the biggest help
to me is that we're.

707
00:35:10,755 --> 00:35:14,665
Like we're very open in our
team about any mental health

708
00:35:14,665 --> 00:35:16,625
sort of, you know, challenges.

709
00:35:16,665 --> 00:35:20,545
And I think we, like we've spent
a lot of time together as well.

710
00:35:20,555 --> 00:35:25,415
Like we're a remote team, but we chat, I
wouldn't say we have that many meetings,

711
00:35:25,415 --> 00:35:29,695
but we have like, um, you know, Monday
meeting, uh, to start the week, a Friday

712
00:35:29,695 --> 00:35:32,105
meeting to kind of wrap up the week.

713
00:35:32,165 --> 00:35:35,610
And we talk about, You know, what went
well, what might not have gone well.

714
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:39,560
And we try and sort of set a tone where
anybody can call out anybody else.

715
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,110
And I think this makes a
really big difference when

716
00:35:42,110 --> 00:35:44,050
there is open communication.

717
00:35:44,750 --> 00:35:47,780
I'm sure it can be better, but it's,
it's, we have a good foundation

718
00:35:47,780 --> 00:35:50,610
and we tell each other stuff
like we don't want it to linger.

719
00:35:50,650 --> 00:35:51,510
That's the main thing.

720
00:35:51,510 --> 00:35:52,900
It's like, you got something on your mind.

721
00:35:52,930 --> 00:35:53,560
I just say it.

722
00:35:53,910 --> 00:35:54,300
And.

723
00:35:54,875 --> 00:35:58,275
I think part of this comes down to hiring
too, because you, you've got to hire

724
00:35:58,275 --> 00:36:01,775
people with low, uh, low ego, right?

725
00:36:01,785 --> 00:36:04,275
Like highly driven, low ego.

726
00:36:04,335 --> 00:36:06,405
That's what I go for
is like highly driven.

727
00:36:06,415 --> 00:36:07,345
They want to do the work.

728
00:36:07,365 --> 00:36:11,005
They're really excited about the work
they can learn quickly, but low ego in

729
00:36:11,005 --> 00:36:15,135
that, you know, doesn't matter if someone
says, Hey, could you do that different or

730
00:36:15,135 --> 00:36:18,885
whatever, or the way you did that as like
kind of affecting me, they have to be able

731
00:36:18,885 --> 00:36:23,695
to take that and I have to be able to take
that as well, and we have a really good.

732
00:36:24,230 --> 00:36:30,720
I think we have that really good at the
moment, but, you know, I, I think they

733
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:36,030
have a good understanding of ADHD now
that they've worked on the product so

734
00:36:36,050 --> 00:36:41,070
long and, you know, I'll just tell them
sometimes like, Hey guys, I got to do

735
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:44,130
like the, like the other day I was like,
I need to do this accounting thing.

736
00:36:44,410 --> 00:36:45,800
I think it'll just take half an hour.

737
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:46,660
And of course it took like.

738
00:36:46,985 --> 00:36:47,895
Two and a half hours.

739
00:36:48,525 --> 00:36:52,825
Cause I just can't judge the time, but
I said to the other girl I work with,

740
00:36:52,835 --> 00:36:57,595
like, can you do a body doubling thing
with me where we would just get on a zoom

741
00:36:57,595 --> 00:37:01,455
call together and we're just, we're both
doing our own work, but I can see her

742
00:37:01,455 --> 00:37:03,655
on the screen and she can see me and.

743
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,030
We don't bother each other, but
I'm like, can you just be there?

744
00:37:06,030 --> 00:37:09,160
Cause I just need, and at the
start I'll go, I'm going to

745
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:10,460
do this accounting thing now.

746
00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:11,160
Okay.

747
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:13,330
In this next half hour or whatever.

748
00:37:14,020 --> 00:37:15,740
And then we'll check
in with you after that.

749
00:37:16,710 --> 00:37:19,500
But she knows, like she gets
zero, she has nothing from it.

750
00:37:20,010 --> 00:37:20,560
She goes.

751
00:37:21,085 --> 00:37:22,705
Because I asked her like,
does this help you too?

752
00:37:22,705 --> 00:37:24,285
And she's like, I don't need it.

753
00:37:25,035 --> 00:37:25,835
And I'm like, okay.

754
00:37:26,205 --> 00:37:28,945
But she goes, I don't mind doing
it because I'm working anyway.

755
00:37:29,555 --> 00:37:30,645
But I'm like, Oh, cool.

756
00:37:30,645 --> 00:37:31,685
Cause I really need it.

757
00:37:31,685 --> 00:37:33,515
Like it helps me so much.

758
00:37:33,595 --> 00:37:35,585
And so I'll just put her
in the corner of my screen.

759
00:37:35,995 --> 00:37:37,075
I can see her there.

760
00:37:37,085 --> 00:37:38,525
And then I'll just try and do my work.

761
00:37:40,775 --> 00:37:43,275
Occasionally she'll look over, if
she thinks I'm distracted, she'll be

762
00:37:43,275 --> 00:37:44,545
like, she'll, she'll unmute her thing.

763
00:37:44,545 --> 00:37:47,385
And she'll go, Hey, what are you doing?

764
00:37:47,395 --> 00:37:50,435
And I'm like, and she's
like, you can do it.

765
00:37:50,445 --> 00:37:53,475
Like, it's just kind of a, I
mean, she knows my weaknesses.

766
00:37:53,475 --> 00:37:56,885
Like I'll just tell her, like, I'm
struggling with this and I really,

767
00:37:57,085 --> 00:37:58,725
it's the most boring admin task.

768
00:37:58,725 --> 00:37:59,765
It's not that I can't do it.

769
00:38:00,065 --> 00:38:02,335
Like, it's not that I don't know
how to do it, but I'm just kind of

770
00:38:02,345 --> 00:38:04,165
struggling motivating myself to do it.

771
00:38:04,165 --> 00:38:05,985
Cause it's so boring.

772
00:38:06,525 --> 00:38:10,545
And so she, she gets it because I think
if someone didn't get it, they would

773
00:38:10,545 --> 00:38:14,865
just It's, it's a hundred times worse
when they go, why can't you just do it?

774
00:38:15,355 --> 00:38:15,935
It's like the worst thing

775
00:38:15,935 --> 00:38:18,995
Marie: you they're just quietly
frustrated behind the scenes, right?

776
00:38:19,005 --> 00:38:19,565
Marie Ng: Yeah.

777
00:38:19,615 --> 00:38:19,895
Yeah.

778
00:38:19,915 --> 00:38:20,245
Yeah.

779
00:38:20,245 --> 00:38:24,595
So I think the fact that, um, she
also, cause she's dealing with a lot

780
00:38:24,595 --> 00:38:27,995
of the customer support requests,
like she can see it, she can see the

781
00:38:27,995 --> 00:38:30,595
trouble that like people are sharing,
like they've got the same trouble.

782
00:38:30,615 --> 00:38:36,885
So I think just the, the understanding
of how, whether it's ADHD or not, just

783
00:38:36,885 --> 00:38:41,775
the understanding of how someone else
works and what they find difficult.

784
00:38:42,035 --> 00:38:45,195
Whether you find that difficult as well
or not, like what they find difficult

785
00:38:45,435 --> 00:38:49,265
is the best thing because then you can
try and help that person as a team.

786
00:38:49,345 --> 00:38:50,495
It's a team thing, right?

787
00:38:50,505 --> 00:38:53,185
Like if someone is struggling
in one area, you just help them.

788
00:38:53,185 --> 00:38:56,035
Like that's the, that's
what the team's for.

789
00:38:56,085 --> 00:39:00,825
Even though it's not your exact
job, like the whole team benefits

790
00:39:00,825 --> 00:39:02,165
when the team's performing well.

791
00:39:02,315 --> 00:39:06,115
So I think we try, I think we're,
we're, we're pretty good at that.

792
00:39:06,750 --> 00:39:10,820
Benjamin: Yeah, for me, at least one of
the measures of a healthy team environment

793
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:17,870
is having the space and the safety to Ask
for help and encouraging that that you

794
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,800
you've got to ask for what you need Yeah,
because I think a lot of people will tend

795
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:26,353
to be I think I don't know if this is
true or not But my anecdotal evidence is

796
00:39:26,353 --> 00:39:31,980
that I think ADHD ADHD errs also have a
tendency Tendency to be people pleasers.

797
00:39:32,660 --> 00:39:36,340
And so there may be a case and, and,
and I think it might boil down to that.

798
00:39:36,340 --> 00:39:40,090
They're there, they always are
thinking like I'm a calamity.

799
00:39:40,110 --> 00:39:42,920
And so there's just like this
expectation that they're going to

800
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:44,530
disappoint everyone around them.

801
00:39:44,530 --> 00:39:48,380
So they get kind of afraid to
say, Hey, I'm going to, I'm

802
00:39:48,390 --> 00:39:49,390
going to struggle with this.

803
00:39:49,715 --> 00:39:53,715
Could you just like observe me and,
and it will really help me that that

804
00:39:53,715 --> 00:39:57,395
ability to ask for help and just
acknowledge it is really, really powerful.

805
00:39:57,795 --> 00:39:58,195
Marie Ng: Yeah.

806
00:39:58,435 --> 00:39:58,805
Yeah.

807
00:39:58,805 --> 00:39:59,975
A hundred percent agree.

808
00:40:00,025 --> 00:40:03,605
Um, I think there's a little bit of shame
that comes from it too, at least for

809
00:40:03,605 --> 00:40:07,755
me, you know, like, cause it seems like
something that's so simple and to other

810
00:40:07,755 --> 00:40:12,715
people it might seem simple, but the
fact that like they know that it's ADHD

811
00:40:12,725 --> 00:40:17,385
related and then I have other skills that
I can do really well, but then this is

812
00:40:17,385 --> 00:40:19,195
my particular thing that I struggle with.

813
00:40:19,940 --> 00:40:23,190
The safety thing that you mentioned, I
think it's called psychological safety.

814
00:40:23,220 --> 00:40:26,030
Like you want to create
psychological safety within the team.

815
00:40:27,100 --> 00:40:29,370
And it's, it's easier said than done.

816
00:40:29,390 --> 00:40:31,610
And it's, it's not something
you can just state, right?

817
00:40:31,610 --> 00:40:34,120
You can't just go, our team
has psychological safety.

818
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:37,470
It's something you have
to do and experience.

819
00:40:37,500 --> 00:40:41,940
And, you know, I think a lot of
big organizations say we have

820
00:40:42,330 --> 00:40:44,940
psychological safety, but there isn't.

821
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,140
And it's even worse because now they're
saying one thing and doing another.

822
00:40:49,850 --> 00:40:55,400
Having actually having that in the team,
um, helps because you're not, it's not

823
00:40:55,410 --> 00:40:58,600
shameful because it's like, well, that's
just not my strength and it's okay.

824
00:40:58,940 --> 00:41:01,540
I acknowledge it's not my strength
and you know, it's not my strength.

825
00:41:02,100 --> 00:41:04,710
Um, and then, yeah, and then
you can help each other.

826
00:41:05,140 --> 00:41:08,850
Marie: I'd love to ask if there's, um,
cause you said it's been about 10 years

827
00:41:08,860 --> 00:41:10,750
that you've been diagnosed with ADHD.

828
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:15,690
So before Llama Life, did you have
experience in jobs where you were

829
00:41:15,690 --> 00:41:21,475
like, ah, clearly I'm not fitting into
this corporate world or whatever jobs,

830
00:41:21,475 --> 00:41:25,555
I mean, like, I know I've gotten in
trouble for being late endless times.

831
00:41:25,555 --> 00:41:30,405
I've, I can definitely see ways looking
back that ADHD was clearly a culprit.

832
00:41:30,415 --> 00:41:33,535
So I'm just kind of curious, were
the warning signs there all along?

833
00:41:33,535 --> 00:41:36,030
And what kind of were they?

834
00:41:36,170 --> 00:41:37,850
Marie Ng: Yeah, it's so
funny as you're saying this.

835
00:41:37,850 --> 00:41:39,240
I can kind of see it in your eyes as well.

836
00:41:39,410 --> 00:41:43,060
Like, yeah, we have the same thing
where it's, um, well, first of

837
00:41:43,060 --> 00:41:46,760
all, let's just say the corporate
experience was a struggle, but

838
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:48,210
it was also good in many ways.

839
00:41:48,210 --> 00:41:52,030
Cause I learned in hindsight,
like I learned a lot and I do

840
00:41:52,030 --> 00:41:53,990
use some of those skills now.

841
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,760
It was very hard to see at
the time, but looking back, of

842
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:58,760
course, it's, You can see it.

843
00:41:59,310 --> 00:42:03,710
Um, but yes, I had a lot of
challenges with corporate.

844
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:07,150
Uh, I was very, very late getting
my first job because I just

845
00:42:07,150 --> 00:42:09,830
couldn't figure out what I wanted.

846
00:42:10,380 --> 00:42:12,780
It was very hard to stick with a job.

847
00:42:13,850 --> 00:42:19,740
And when I did get my first job,
it was out of necessity because I,

848
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:23,870
with ADHD, like there's a little
bit of like impulsiveness and also,

849
00:42:23,870 --> 00:42:27,760
you know, You need excitement to
kind of get going, at least I do.

850
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:32,590
And so I ended up, my first job
came about because I said, so I'm in

851
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:36,840
Melbourne, Australia, and I, I grew
up in Melbourne, Australia, but I

852
00:42:36,860 --> 00:42:38,230
said, I'm just going to go to London.

853
00:42:38,380 --> 00:42:41,300
Hey guys, I'm just going to London
and I'm going to find a job there.

854
00:42:41,630 --> 00:42:45,500
So, The stakes are higher and that's
kind of the stakes are higher.

855
00:42:45,530 --> 00:42:47,590
It was impulsive and it was exciting.

856
00:42:48,190 --> 00:42:51,950
And if I didn't get a job, I'd be
completely like screwed and would

857
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:55,060
have to come back to Australia and
I'd feel really embarrassed about it.

858
00:42:55,070 --> 00:42:58,650
So I kind of put myself in this situation
where I was like, okay, I got to get this.

859
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:01,430
I'm not leaving London until I get a job.

860
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:04,950
And I perform really well,
like in those situations.

861
00:43:05,170 --> 00:43:08,300
So I ended up getting a job in like
13 days and it was a really good job.

862
00:43:08,985 --> 00:43:12,335
And I had to interview like five
or six times and do presentations

863
00:43:12,335 --> 00:43:16,845
and tests and stuff is a sort of
mid junior, mid sort of level job.

864
00:43:17,085 --> 00:43:20,345
But I got that job and that kind
of led me through my whole career.

865
00:43:20,375 --> 00:43:23,955
Like that was the starting point for
that branding advertising career,

866
00:43:24,535 --> 00:43:26,525
but it was really hard where.

867
00:43:26,830 --> 00:43:28,730
You know, I'd get, I'd
be late all the time.

868
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:31,010
I didn't mean to, but I
just was late all the time.

869
00:43:31,010 --> 00:43:33,180
It happens a lot.

870
00:43:33,540 --> 00:43:36,860
And I kept getting told like
I'm disruptive because I would

871
00:43:36,860 --> 00:43:39,380
get out of my seat all the time.

872
00:43:39,950 --> 00:43:40,730
I just couldn't help it.

873
00:43:40,730 --> 00:43:42,570
I had to get up, walk
around, talk to people.

874
00:43:43,270 --> 00:43:46,890
I'm an introvert, but I still
had to, I just had to get up.

875
00:43:46,890 --> 00:43:49,200
I don't know, make a coffee,
go to the bathroom, whatever.

876
00:43:49,620 --> 00:43:51,130
And my boss was sitting.

877
00:43:51,705 --> 00:43:53,655
Opposite me in an open plan office.

878
00:43:54,005 --> 00:43:54,945
So it's very obvious.

879
00:43:54,945 --> 00:43:55,235
Right.

880
00:43:55,285 --> 00:43:58,535
And so she's, she's like pulling me
aside going, you get up way too often.

881
00:43:59,045 --> 00:44:00,565
And I was like, I don't know what to say.

882
00:44:00,565 --> 00:44:02,375
Like, I'm still getting my work done.

883
00:44:02,375 --> 00:44:02,675
Right.

884
00:44:02,705 --> 00:44:06,015
And, but I suppose it was very
distracting for her as well.

885
00:44:06,655 --> 00:44:07,395
What else did I do?

886
00:44:07,405 --> 00:44:07,715
Oh yeah.

887
00:44:07,715 --> 00:44:10,625
There's something called time
sheets in like a large corporate.

888
00:44:10,655 --> 00:44:12,795
So we were working on client service side.

889
00:44:13,215 --> 00:44:16,095
Maybe you, yeah, maybe you
experienced this as well, but when

890
00:44:16,095 --> 00:44:20,405
you, when you have clients, like
you have to, you basically had to.

891
00:44:20,690 --> 00:44:22,940
Breakdown, like where I was
spending my time and then the

892
00:44:22,940 --> 00:44:24,010
client would get billed for that.

893
00:44:24,910 --> 00:44:28,330
And I was always, this is the most
boring thing for me in the world.

894
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:32,840
And I was always behind on my time
sheets, like six months behind, which is

895
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:37,280
really bad because it means that we're
billing, yeah, it's just really bad.

896
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:37,470
Right.

897
00:44:37,470 --> 00:44:38,880
Because you don't accurately billing.

898
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,240
And then suddenly there's a
big bill because I've suddenly

899
00:44:41,240 --> 00:44:42,480
put in all my time sheets.

900
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,410
And so I got called up
on that all the time.

901
00:44:45,470 --> 00:44:48,590
You know, they used to run
reports on who's behind and

902
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:49,970
like, oh, I'd always be there.

903
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:51,170
My boss would.

904
00:44:51,670 --> 00:44:52,790
It's always the same story.

905
00:44:52,790 --> 00:44:54,100
They're like, you're doing really well.

906
00:44:54,630 --> 00:44:59,880
Like you're great at your job, but you're
not doing well at these smaller, boring,

907
00:44:59,900 --> 00:45:01,870
you're not doing well, these admin tasks.

908
00:45:02,510 --> 00:45:09,480
And it kind of made me after a while
feel like, you know, maybe I can design

909
00:45:09,500 --> 00:45:12,810
a job that is a better, is better
suited to me, which is entrepreneurship.

910
00:45:13,700 --> 00:45:18,820
Maybe I can, I would have more control
over my environment and what I want to do,

911
00:45:18,830 --> 00:45:20,690
when I want to do it, how I want to do it.

912
00:45:20,720 --> 00:45:23,720
I'm not feeling it today or
maybe I can outsource it.

913
00:45:24,310 --> 00:45:28,690
Um, and it turns out like
entrepreneurship is just the perfect job.

914
00:45:28,690 --> 00:45:29,980
Like that's why I couldn't find a job.

915
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:33,415
It's because I had to create my
own own job and, Exactly how I

916
00:45:33,415 --> 00:45:35,055
want it and need, how I need it.

917
00:45:35,085 --> 00:45:40,855
I should say how I need it to be no more
timesheets, definitely no more timesheets.

918
00:45:40,905 --> 00:45:43,985
Um, but I think it's
the control thing too.

919
00:45:43,985 --> 00:45:47,955
Like you can, this stuff I don't want to
do, but eventually I can outsource it.

920
00:45:49,245 --> 00:45:51,995
And I don't have to ask
anyone if I want to do that.

921
00:45:52,165 --> 00:45:53,105
It's my decision.

922
00:45:53,715 --> 00:45:56,895
You're able to create the structure
that an environment that you need

923
00:45:56,905 --> 00:46:01,305
versus trying to fit into somebody
else's or some company, another

924
00:46:01,305 --> 00:46:03,345
company's environment and structure.

925
00:46:04,175 --> 00:46:09,775
Because one thing people don't talk about
that much is that like, I could do it.

926
00:46:10,045 --> 00:46:12,885
I could fit somewhere
else, but it's so draining.

927
00:46:13,675 --> 00:46:15,075
So I would work during the day.

928
00:46:15,075 --> 00:46:19,195
I'd be constantly trying to fit
into this other thing and somebody

929
00:46:19,195 --> 00:46:20,945
else's rules and what I need to do.

930
00:46:20,955 --> 00:46:22,605
And then I'd come home and I just crash.

931
00:46:23,005 --> 00:46:25,175
Like I just completely wrecked no more.

932
00:46:25,345 --> 00:46:27,445
My energy was just like, no, I'm done.

933
00:46:27,455 --> 00:46:28,485
I can't do anything now.

934
00:46:28,865 --> 00:46:32,205
And that's a really bad state to live in.

935
00:46:32,215 --> 00:46:33,445
Like you're constantly.

936
00:46:34,135 --> 00:46:38,355
You're either like really on and like
trying to fit in and then nothing.

937
00:46:38,565 --> 00:46:42,395
And I really wanted more
balance to, to how I'm feeling.

938
00:46:43,405 --> 00:46:43,845
Marie: Yeah.

939
00:46:43,965 --> 00:46:48,855
It feels like that, that creates a
real separation, like work and that's

940
00:46:48,855 --> 00:46:52,455
the draining thing and then home life
and it creates this, this separation.

941
00:46:52,455 --> 00:46:56,265
But when you're more able to manage
your energy in general, it's sort

942
00:46:56,265 --> 00:46:59,855
of like, Oh, work and business, they
kind of intermingle, but not in a

943
00:46:59,855 --> 00:47:03,245
way that feels really, you know,
like You start to feel resentful

944
00:47:03,285 --> 00:47:05,185
of work in this bucket over here.

945
00:47:05,185 --> 00:47:06,835
And that's the thing
that drains my energy.

946
00:47:07,635 --> 00:47:11,195
It sounds like also, I imagine for
you doing some of that business

947
00:47:11,195 --> 00:47:15,825
administrative stuff, it's probably a
little easier because it's part of a

948
00:47:15,865 --> 00:47:17,595
bigger passion project for you, right?

949
00:47:17,595 --> 00:47:21,045
So if you have to do something, it's
like, okay, it's still part of my

950
00:47:21,045 --> 00:47:25,065
baby, this thing that I'm growing
versus having to do that stuff in a

951
00:47:25,065 --> 00:47:27,245
structure that you don't fit into,

952
00:47:27,255 --> 00:47:27,585
Marie Ng: right?

953
00:47:27,745 --> 00:47:29,065
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

954
00:47:29,095 --> 00:47:31,255
Um, it's easier to see.

955
00:47:31,475 --> 00:47:34,755
That it's a, you know, a means
to, a means to an end and it's, it

956
00:47:34,755 --> 00:47:39,085
goes toward something that, yeah,
I, I, I'm very passionate about.

957
00:47:39,585 --> 00:47:41,985
And somebody asked me this the
other day, they're like, what,

958
00:47:42,425 --> 00:47:46,425
you know, would you, cause I see
a lot of indie hackers doing this.

959
00:47:46,505 --> 00:47:48,715
They're working on lots of
different projects, right?

960
00:47:48,715 --> 00:47:51,195
They've got, you know, five or
six different things on the go.

961
00:47:52,035 --> 00:47:55,575
And, you know, they're like, would you
ever want to work on anything else?

962
00:47:55,575 --> 00:47:57,355
Like started another project?

963
00:47:57,355 --> 00:47:58,675
And I'm like, not really, because.

964
00:47:59,275 --> 00:48:03,135
Like, I really like my One Project,
it's, it's um, it's so personal to

965
00:48:03,135 --> 00:48:08,545
me, it's, it's more that the problem
is very personal, and so if it

966
00:48:08,555 --> 00:48:12,565
wasn't Llama Life, it would still
be trying to solve the same problem.

967
00:48:12,565 --> 00:48:15,545
So the problem to me is like,
how do I, how do I manage my

968
00:48:15,555 --> 00:48:17,315
focus and attention better?

969
00:48:17,325 --> 00:48:20,695
You know, how do I kind of get through
my day, you know, two people might have

970
00:48:20,695 --> 00:48:24,455
the same to do list to get through, but
one person might finish the day, like.

971
00:48:24,705 --> 00:48:26,975
You might both get through the
list, but one person might feel the

972
00:48:26,975 --> 00:48:28,425
day really calm and accomplished.

973
00:48:28,715 --> 00:48:32,225
The other person might be like, I got
through, but I'm so tired and stressed

974
00:48:32,225 --> 00:48:34,355
and it was so hectic and up and down.

975
00:48:34,905 --> 00:48:38,765
And I'm always like, well, how do I get
through my day like nicely, you know?

976
00:48:39,315 --> 00:48:43,690
And so that's what calmly and like
effectively, and that's what That's the

977
00:48:43,690 --> 00:48:46,820
problem I'm trying to solve currently
with Llama Life, but if Llama Life's

978
00:48:46,820 --> 00:48:49,910
not working, like, I don't know,
I'm talking like way in the future,

979
00:48:50,060 --> 00:48:51,500
I'd still be on the same problem.

980
00:48:52,020 --> 00:48:57,440
It's just, and then that's what, I think
that's maybe the difference because I see

981
00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:01,240
a lot of other folks working on stuff that
like, it's not a personal problem to them.

982
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:05,960
It's just like maybe an idea they had
and the idea might be a good idea, but

983
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:09,820
the thing is, and I learned this with
my other businesses, like startups.

984
00:49:10,220 --> 00:49:12,170
Or, you know, side projects will fail.

985
00:49:12,670 --> 00:49:15,400
It's only two, there's only two
reasons why it fails, like two main

986
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:17,640
reasons and it's money or motivation.

987
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:19,930
Everything can be put
into those two buckets.

988
00:49:19,940 --> 00:49:20,730
It's either money.

989
00:49:20,730 --> 00:49:21,810
You don't have enough money.

990
00:49:21,980 --> 00:49:26,230
You need to stop or your motivation
fails for whatever reason.

991
00:49:27,020 --> 00:49:31,080
And maybe it's cause you're not,
it's not a personal problem or, but

992
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:32,880
everything falls into those two buckets.

993
00:49:33,275 --> 00:49:33,885
That I've seen.

994
00:49:34,545 --> 00:49:37,025
I've solved the money
thing with the fundraising.

995
00:49:37,715 --> 00:49:41,525
The motivation thing is not a
problem for me with this problem.

996
00:49:41,635 --> 00:49:43,705
So it's Because it's
kind of your life's work,

997
00:49:43,705 --> 00:49:44,055
Marie: right?

998
00:49:44,125 --> 00:49:44,295
It's

999
00:49:44,425 --> 00:49:46,965
Marie Ng: Yeah, in a way, like
it feels, it feels like it is.

1000
00:49:46,965 --> 00:49:49,410
Like I kind of feel like this
is what I was supposed to do.

1001
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:52,540
Cause I've done the, my corporate
career, but I feel like this is the

1002
00:49:52,540 --> 00:49:57,870
thing that it's kind of scary though,
in a way, because I feel like it

1003
00:49:57,870 --> 00:50:00,180
defines me a bit and that's not good.

1004
00:50:00,710 --> 00:50:01,060
Right.

1005
00:50:01,060 --> 00:50:04,900
I think I heard on one of your other
podcasts actually about this thing

1006
00:50:04,900 --> 00:50:08,650
where like your identity is so wrapped
up in the work that you're doing.

1007
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:09,880
I don't know.

1008
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:12,540
It's good and bad, or it's sort of,
it's good because like, that is me.

1009
00:50:12,540 --> 00:50:13,640
Like Llama Life is me.

1010
00:50:14,780 --> 00:50:18,430
For whatever reason, like, I need to
be able to, like, if that doesn't work,

1011
00:50:18,430 --> 00:50:23,460
like, I need to be able to not put all
my self, self's worth, like, in that.

1012
00:50:24,210 --> 00:50:25,350
It's very hard to do.

1013
00:50:25,420 --> 00:50:28,030
I think you, you're sort of nodding
because I think you guys have

1014
00:50:28,030 --> 00:50:29,460
obviously have your own business.

1015
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:31,720
and notion mastery, et cetera.

1016
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:34,250
Marie: I mean, I think you just kind
of nailed it with saying that even

1017
00:50:34,250 --> 00:50:38,240
if it's not Lama life, these ideas
are still always there and it's still

1018
00:50:38,240 --> 00:50:39,810
something that is a part of you.

1019
00:50:39,810 --> 00:50:44,050
So it's like not wrapping up
your identity in the output.

1020
00:50:44,290 --> 00:50:46,370
Like I'm not this course.

1021
00:50:46,390 --> 00:50:47,580
I am not this business.

1022
00:50:47,580 --> 00:50:49,330
I'm not this, but I'm these ideas.

1023
00:50:49,630 --> 00:50:53,190
And so it does seem like you kind
of have Some awareness that like,

1024
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:57,940
even if Llama Life didn't exist,
you're still in the curiosity around

1025
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:00,000
how do I solve for this problem,

1026
00:51:00,090 --> 00:51:00,430
Marie Ng: right?

1027
00:51:00,750 --> 00:51:01,160
Yeah.

1028
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:01,580
Yeah.

1029
00:51:02,060 --> 00:51:02,320
Yeah.

1030
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:04,100
Actually, that's a really
good way to think about it.

1031
00:51:04,260 --> 00:51:07,400
I'm just thinking about,
um, your business as well.

1032
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:10,440
Cause you, you love
designing systems, right?

1033
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:14,170
That's sort of like the systems part or
solving a problem for somebody else's

1034
00:51:14,290 --> 00:51:20,930
business using Notion, but it's, If Notion
went away, like, then you still have

1035
00:51:20,940 --> 00:51:25,245
the foundation and the, the problem of
like, We will solve, we will figure out a

1036
00:51:25,245 --> 00:51:29,155
system for your business that's tailored
and works for your business and you.

1037
00:51:29,465 --> 00:51:32,875
Right now it happens to be Notion
as the tool, but it could be

1038
00:51:33,405 --> 00:51:34,805
something else if it had to be.

1039
00:51:35,425 --> 00:51:36,545
Is that, is that right?

1040
00:51:37,075 --> 00:51:37,345
Yep,

1041
00:51:37,475 --> 00:51:38,275
Benjamin: that's pretty close.

1042
00:51:38,365 --> 00:51:39,565
Yeah, I would definitely agree.

1043
00:51:39,565 --> 00:51:42,335
I'm, I've always considered
myself a technologist.

1044
00:51:42,615 --> 00:51:45,775
first and foremost and a, and
a problem solver type person.

1045
00:51:45,805 --> 00:51:48,625
So I don't really, you know,
when businesses come to me

1046
00:51:48,625 --> 00:51:50,835
and they go, we need notion.

1047
00:51:51,455 --> 00:51:55,465
My first question is usually
what, what do you need notion for?

1048
00:51:55,535 --> 00:51:59,585
And, you know, they can
sometimes not speak on why it is.

1049
00:51:59,585 --> 00:52:00,445
They want notion.

1050
00:52:00,665 --> 00:52:03,620
You just shipped your first mobile
app and you were Talking about like,

1051
00:52:03,620 --> 00:52:04,870
Oh, we haven't gotten approved yet.

1052
00:52:04,870 --> 00:52:05,700
And I was like, Oh, don't worry.

1053
00:52:05,710 --> 00:52:07,770
Like that's, that's how like Apple works.

1054
00:52:07,770 --> 00:52:11,480
They take forever on that first
review and so on and forth, so forth.

1055
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:14,620
Cause I made a bunch of mobile apps
back in one of my previous companies.

1056
00:52:14,650 --> 00:52:18,620
And that was the same thing back then as
people would go, we need a mobile app.

1057
00:52:18,740 --> 00:52:22,370
And it was usually just because
they needed a mobile app.

1058
00:52:22,615 --> 00:52:25,125
That was, that was the reason
that they were wanting to

1059
00:52:25,125 --> 00:52:26,605
build one that we needed one.

1060
00:52:26,645 --> 00:52:30,285
There was no actual like, Oh, here's
the, here's the business strategy.

1061
00:52:30,285 --> 00:52:31,195
Here's the goal.

1062
00:52:31,595 --> 00:52:35,495
And so, yeah, like a lot of times we
get distracted and I need a productivity

1063
00:52:35,515 --> 00:52:36,995
app to help me be productive.

1064
00:52:37,045 --> 00:52:41,115
And it's usually there's some kind of,
Underlying thing that's driving that

1065
00:52:41,115 --> 00:52:45,405
desire that you could solve that problem
in a lot of different ways, which is

1066
00:52:45,405 --> 00:52:46,895
why there's so many productivity apps, I

1067
00:52:46,895 --> 00:52:49,625
Marie Ng: guess, you know, you know,
luckily for us, we were probably

1068
00:52:49,635 --> 00:52:54,355
like late in doing the mobile app,
I would say, but it was definitely

1069
00:52:54,855 --> 00:52:58,235
demand for it in the sense that like
that was the number one request.

1070
00:52:58,245 --> 00:53:02,005
Every day we get emails, like most of
the emails are like responding to that

1071
00:53:02,005 --> 00:53:05,185
welcome email or like, Hey guys, when
are you going to do the mobile app?

1072
00:53:05,575 --> 00:53:08,555
So we, we did ask, you know, why, because.

1073
00:53:08,895 --> 00:53:13,615
Originally, it was like, it still is,
it has a desktop web version, so you

1074
00:53:13,615 --> 00:53:16,315
can use it while you're working and
have it on the side of your screen.

1075
00:53:16,785 --> 00:53:20,385
That still fits a lot of our
audience, like their use case.

1076
00:53:20,755 --> 00:53:24,145
But we were asking the folks that
were asking for the mobile app, like,

1077
00:53:24,205 --> 00:53:25,495
what are you going to use it for?

1078
00:53:25,495 --> 00:53:28,495
You know, don't you, aren't
you using this to work?

1079
00:53:29,085 --> 00:53:34,875
screenshots of the desktop tool and
the stuff that they were putting in.

1080
00:53:34,875 --> 00:53:35,975
It was not work related.

1081
00:53:35,985 --> 00:53:36,795
It was stuff like.

1082
00:53:37,460 --> 00:53:40,300
Um, morning routine kind
of stuff, like get up.

1083
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:45,030
Uh, so the thing with Lama life is that
each task has a timer, but it's flexible.

1084
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:47,070
It doesn't have to be 25 minutes.

1085
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:50,690
Like, you know, how there's like the
Pomodoro timer, it's got to be 25 minutes.

1086
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:53,770
We are the opposite of that, where.

1087
00:53:54,110 --> 00:53:55,940
I can't do 25 minutes.

1088
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:56,820
It's too long for me.

1089
00:53:56,820 --> 00:54:00,900
So I was like, I need like, sometimes
I'll do one minute because I just want

1090
00:54:00,900 --> 00:54:03,560
to get into the, get into the flow.

1091
00:54:03,560 --> 00:54:03,800
Right.

1092
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:06,150
And then maybe five
minutes and work my way up.

1093
00:54:06,870 --> 00:54:10,140
And so we can do very short
timers for, for each task.

1094
00:54:10,370 --> 00:54:12,520
And so they would, they
showed us these screenshots.

1095
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:16,740
They're like, wake up one
minute, drink water one minute.

1096
00:54:17,570 --> 00:54:22,300
Um, get like heat up breakfast, two
minutes, eat breakfast, five minutes.

1097
00:54:22,310 --> 00:54:23,160
And we're like, Oh wow.

1098
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:23,470
Like.

1099
00:54:24,100 --> 00:54:24,650
Okay, cool.

1100
00:54:24,650 --> 00:54:28,220
So granular, really granular,
but, but you know what?

1101
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:29,180
Like everyone's different.

1102
00:54:29,180 --> 00:54:30,030
So we're like, okay, cool.

1103
00:54:30,430 --> 00:54:31,840
Um, that's how you want to use it.

1104
00:54:31,850 --> 00:54:32,440
Makes sense.

1105
00:54:32,470 --> 00:54:36,250
And you're not going to be doing that,
those tasks at your computer, a hundred

1106
00:54:36,250 --> 00:54:38,040
percent can see why you need this.

1107
00:54:38,250 --> 00:54:39,510
And it wasn't just one person.

1108
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:40,460
There's so many people.

1109
00:54:40,860 --> 00:54:43,090
So we're like, okay, yeah,
we need to do the mobile app.

1110
00:54:43,550 --> 00:54:47,210
And now we're in this point where
we did the iOS app, but people

1111
00:54:47,210 --> 00:54:50,530
like where's Android and we're
like, oh, no, it never ends.

1112
00:54:51,030 --> 00:54:51,350
It never ends.

1113
00:54:51,980 --> 00:54:56,780
And, um, luckily we use react native
because, um, the web is, the web is

1114
00:54:56,780 --> 00:54:58,380
in react and that's what I learned.

1115
00:54:58,380 --> 00:55:01,350
So like, okay, someone else
offered to build us a mobile

1116
00:55:01,350 --> 00:55:02,930
app in some other language.

1117
00:55:02,930 --> 00:55:06,750
And I'm like, I think they could do it,
but I'm like, no, because I won't be

1118
00:55:06,750 --> 00:55:09,860
able to contribute or edit it in future.

1119
00:55:09,910 --> 00:55:12,380
And I need to be able to do that because.

1120
00:55:12,825 --> 00:55:16,485
Like there's just some small stuff that I
just need to get in there and it's so much

1121
00:55:16,485 --> 00:55:17,885
faster if I just get in there and do it.

1122
00:55:18,535 --> 00:55:21,915
So the way I work with my other
dev at the moment, he's amazing.

1123
00:55:21,925 --> 00:55:23,145
He's like amazing.

1124
00:55:23,415 --> 00:55:24,265
He's so fast.

1125
00:55:24,425 --> 00:55:25,785
He knows like the way I work too.

1126
00:55:25,785 --> 00:55:28,785
So he'll get it like 80 percent there
and he's like, okay, over to you now.

1127
00:55:29,015 --> 00:55:32,715
And I'll go in and I'll do the
design and I'll just tweak stuff.

1128
00:55:32,715 --> 00:55:33,045
Like, okay.

1129
00:55:33,045 --> 00:55:35,785
I just feel like this, the flow
needs to be a little different.

1130
00:55:35,785 --> 00:55:39,415
I'll just get in there and tinker
like the last 20%, but he knows that.

1131
00:55:39,415 --> 00:55:42,255
So we have this thing where
like, we'll do a handoff.

1132
00:55:42,670 --> 00:55:45,240
Um, and it's, it's works
really great for us.

1133
00:55:45,690 --> 00:55:45,910
Yeah.

1134
00:55:45,910 --> 00:55:46,870
To your point, never ending.

1135
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:49,370
Like now we need to do the Android
app and make sure that's good.

1136
00:55:49,370 --> 00:55:55,940
And then we got Apple watch is the
other request and only one vision

1137
00:55:55,940 --> 00:56:02,180
pro request so far, which we're not
doing, but, uh, yeah, I was going to

1138
00:56:02,370 --> 00:56:06,950
Marie: ask at one point, you know, you had
any reservations or concerns around going

1139
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:10,778
all in on one product, but it's like,
when you're building a software, you know,

1140
00:56:10,778 --> 00:56:14,695
it's There are so many micro projects
that are probably almost never ending.

1141
00:56:14,695 --> 00:56:17,935
So it seems like you have enough to
kind of keep you excited and motivated.

1142
00:56:17,935 --> 00:56:19,445
Marie Ng: And yeah, yeah.

1143
00:56:19,485 --> 00:56:22,945
It's all more learning, you know,
like each platform's different.

1144
00:56:22,945 --> 00:56:25,305
I mean, maybe Ben, you've,
you've experienced this.

1145
00:56:25,645 --> 00:56:28,825
Mobile for me was like a
lot harder than the web.

1146
00:56:28,925 --> 00:56:31,405
Just more quirks, I suppose.

1147
00:56:31,475 --> 00:56:37,165
And more to consider, because What
if someone soft closes the app?

1148
00:56:37,165 --> 00:56:38,715
What if they hard close the app?

1149
00:56:39,645 --> 00:56:41,215
What about notifications?

1150
00:56:41,575 --> 00:56:44,065
What about, like, this is for
iOS, but what about, like, uh,

1151
00:56:44,105 --> 00:56:46,295
dynamic island or live activities?

1152
00:56:46,995 --> 00:56:49,905
Um, and then timers and
time are really hard.

1153
00:56:51,555 --> 00:56:54,235
And then time zone, we haven't
gotten to the time zone thing yet.

1154
00:56:54,505 --> 00:56:57,495
We sort of said we're not doing
that because, um, we're not, we're

1155
00:56:57,495 --> 00:56:58,755
not focusing on time zones yet.

1156
00:56:58,845 --> 00:57:00,775
And calendars and alarms
and things like that.

1157
00:57:01,185 --> 00:57:03,215
We're just, we're a relative timer.

1158
00:57:03,255 --> 00:57:05,145
So whenever you start a
timer, that's when it starts.

1159
00:57:05,145 --> 00:57:08,135
When people have been saying to us,
can you integrate calendar and stuff?

1160
00:57:08,135 --> 00:57:10,945
And we're like, that brings in time zones.

1161
00:57:13,085 --> 00:57:13,425
Yeah.

1162
00:57:13,425 --> 00:57:13,915
Yeah.

1163
00:57:13,965 --> 00:57:17,025
Uh, but yeah, mobile has
been a lot more challenging.

1164
00:57:17,025 --> 00:57:19,695
There's a lot more,
they're not edge cases.

1165
00:57:19,735 --> 00:57:22,915
I don't think there's stuff
that are totally legit, but

1166
00:57:22,915 --> 00:57:24,215
there's more things to consider.

1167
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:27,010
More states that somebody could be in.

1168
00:57:27,910 --> 00:57:29,840
And that's been, yeah, more challenging.

1169
00:57:31,430 --> 00:57:31,580
Yeah,

1170
00:57:31,580 --> 00:57:34,370
Benjamin: there's a lot more, uh,
I think uniformity in the user

1171
00:57:34,370 --> 00:57:36,330
experience in most mobile platforms.

1172
00:57:36,330 --> 00:57:39,770
And so there's that consideration with,
uh, if you're using something like React

1173
00:57:39,770 --> 00:57:45,410
Native or, or another, you know, wrapping
software like Electron or something that

1174
00:57:46,060 --> 00:57:51,295
if you deviate too much from the, the
general, you know, platform norms that

1175
00:57:51,295 --> 00:57:55,495
people can, if you're a primarily a mobile
user, then you might not know like, Oh,

1176
00:57:55,495 --> 00:58:00,795
this button, this is the same as this type
of interface on, you know, iOS standard.

1177
00:58:00,795 --> 00:58:05,810
So it's tricky because then once you go
to Android, now it's, you have to You

1178
00:58:05,810 --> 00:58:10,170
have to think about, well, how do most
people use the app on Android when it's

1179
00:58:10,170 --> 00:58:13,950
got like a task bar on the bottom or
versus the top or something like that?

1180
00:58:13,950 --> 00:58:17,160
So there's lots of different, like little
idiosyncrasies of each platform that

1181
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:21,990
you have to accommodate for, or the way
that you register for notifications is

1182
00:58:21,990 --> 00:58:23,650
slightly different on both platforms.

1183
00:58:23,650 --> 00:58:25,010
And then, you know, that kind of stuff.

1184
00:58:25,010 --> 00:58:26,095
So, yeah, it gets pretty tricky.

1185
00:58:26,685 --> 00:58:27,985
Pretty, uh, confusing.

1186
00:58:28,035 --> 00:58:30,765
Can I ask what your, um, what
your back end is written in?

1187
00:58:30,795 --> 00:58:32,105
Is it also JavaScript

1188
00:58:32,105 --> 00:58:32,325
Marie Ng: or?

1189
00:58:32,365 --> 00:58:33,355
Yeah, it's Node.

1190
00:58:33,385 --> 00:58:34,095
Um, yeah, Node.

1191
00:58:34,095 --> 00:58:34,555
js.

1192
00:58:34,595 --> 00:58:35,095
Express.

1193
00:58:35,505 --> 00:58:35,655
Yeah,

1194
00:58:35,655 --> 00:58:39,135
Benjamin: you've got, you've got
a, a nice, you know, uniformity

1195
00:58:39,135 --> 00:58:40,465
of, of language across the

1196
00:58:40,465 --> 00:58:41,195
Marie Ng: whole platform.

1197
00:58:41,295 --> 00:58:43,875
I think this is one of the hardest
things when I was learning to

1198
00:58:43,875 --> 00:58:46,145
code is not the code itself.

1199
00:58:46,145 --> 00:58:48,535
It was, how does a code
fit in everywhere else?

1200
00:58:48,655 --> 00:58:49,005
It's like.

1201
00:58:49,585 --> 00:58:55,295
Yeah, the backend, what frameworks to use
for that, and also even just how to like

1202
00:58:55,295 --> 00:59:00,025
deploy something, you know, like how does
the ecosystem like around everything work?

1203
00:59:00,025 --> 00:59:02,435
Like how do I, you know, how
do I host something, set up

1204
00:59:02,435 --> 00:59:06,155
a DNS and like get it out?

1205
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:10,220
And set up my, you know, my edit,
my coding editor and stuff like,

1206
00:59:10,290 --> 00:59:11,310
how does it all fit together?

1207
00:59:11,330 --> 00:59:14,280
That was like harder than the
actual coding, I think, for me.

1208
00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:16,520
Yeah, the architectural work.

1209
00:59:16,660 --> 00:59:17,420
Yeah, yeah.

1210
00:59:17,420 --> 00:59:17,650
The decision

1211
00:59:17,650 --> 00:59:20,710
Marie: fatigue that comes along with
like all the different thousands of

1212
00:59:20,710 --> 00:59:24,310
decisions at the beginning that you have
to make as the founders that kind of

1213
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:25,330
Marie Ng: set you up.

1214
00:59:25,660 --> 00:59:26,320
Yeah, yeah.

1215
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:29,220
That was one of the hardest things
for me was the, the, like the

1216
00:59:29,220 --> 00:59:30,970
database was kind of hard too.

1217
00:59:30,970 --> 00:59:34,850
So we use Firebase real time,
the Firebase real time database.

1218
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:38,540
It's really front end friendly,
really, like it's, have you heard

1219
00:59:38,540 --> 00:59:39,860
of something called Jamstack?

1220
00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:45,680
Jamstack, it's like JavaScript APIs and I
don't know what, what the other one stands

1221
00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:50,730
for, but it's really good for front, like
we've, so we're very front end heavy.

1222
00:59:51,110 --> 00:59:55,650
And so we, we do have the backend, but
it's, we use backend services that are

1223
00:59:55,710 --> 00:59:57,900
designed for like front end engineers.

1224
00:59:58,905 --> 01:00:01,775
So Firebase is, is, you
know, really great like that.

1225
01:00:02,725 --> 01:00:05,805
Benjamin: You can abstract away some
of the, you don't have to design a

1226
01:00:05,815 --> 01:00:11,055
custom API, you can kind of make calls
directly to a database kind of friendly,

1227
01:00:11,395 --> 01:00:13,995
like if you're, if you're creating a
record, there'll be an end point that

1228
01:00:13,995 --> 01:00:17,225
you could hit right at the database
layer without having to write like an

1229
01:00:17,235 --> 01:00:19,985
intermediary API or something like that.

1230
01:00:19,985 --> 01:00:20,455
Yeah.

1231
01:00:20,545 --> 01:00:22,095
Marie Ng: But it's really
hard to make those decisions

1232
01:00:22,095 --> 01:00:23,195
when you don't know about it.

1233
01:00:23,505 --> 01:00:23,865
A hundred percent.

1234
01:00:23,865 --> 01:00:25,705
And so I kind of look back now.

1235
01:00:25,705 --> 01:00:27,317
What's the consequence of that decision?

1236
01:00:27,317 --> 01:00:27,855
Yeah, yeah.

1237
01:00:27,855 --> 01:00:28,470
Tech debt.

1238
01:00:28,820 --> 01:00:31,230
Like we do have some tech debt, like
that'll have to be sorted out at

1239
01:00:31,230 --> 01:00:32,970
some point, but not, not right now.

1240
01:00:32,970 --> 01:00:33,880
We don't need to do it now.

1241
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:38,920
We're not, it's not big enough to do
that right now, but, um, yeah, I'm sort

1242
01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:44,040
of every now and again, I look back and
I'm going, I can't believe I made, like,

1243
01:00:44,170 --> 01:00:45,670
I actually made that like decision.

1244
01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:46,420
It was pretty good.

1245
01:00:46,420 --> 01:00:49,730
Like sort of that luck
serendipitous thing.

1246
01:00:49,730 --> 01:00:51,360
It was like, actually, it's not bad.

1247
01:00:51,370 --> 01:00:52,760
Like the setup's pretty good.

1248
01:00:53,220 --> 01:00:57,100
Um, but then I also see now that there's
a lot of, you know, you There's some

1249
01:00:57,100 --> 01:01:01,630
flaws, and we'll have to fix those,
but, um, And there's also, you know,

1250
01:01:01,860 --> 01:01:04,970
like, code, like, Ben, maybe you've
seen this, like, you, you have code that

1251
01:01:04,970 --> 01:01:06,150
you've written, like, three years ago.

1252
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:09,110
Because when you're in your coding
editor, it'll tell you like, Marie,

1253
01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:10,410
you wrote this three years ago.

1254
01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:13,300
And sometimes I look at that
and I'm like, Oh my God.

1255
01:01:13,300 --> 01:01:16,700
Like that's so like, I should
change, I should fix that.

1256
01:01:16,710 --> 01:01:18,380
Or I should, I could do that better now.

1257
01:01:18,460 --> 01:01:19,830
And then I'm like, no, don't touch it.

1258
01:01:19,830 --> 01:01:20,250
It's fine.

1259
01:01:20,570 --> 01:01:21,950
Good enough for now, right?

1260
01:01:22,220 --> 01:01:22,450
Yeah.

1261
01:01:22,450 --> 01:01:26,840
Because a couple of times I've gone to
fix it and then it broke something else.

1262
01:01:27,070 --> 01:01:28,080
And I'm like, Hmm.

1263
01:01:29,220 --> 01:01:32,380
And there was one part in the
code that I actually tried to fix

1264
01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:34,340
twice, maybe like a year apart.

1265
01:01:34,370 --> 01:01:35,420
And I totally forgot.

1266
01:01:36,215 --> 01:01:37,085
And it broke again.

1267
01:01:37,575 --> 01:01:39,285
And so this time I wrote myself a comment.

1268
01:01:39,295 --> 01:01:41,365
I'm like, do you not try and fix this?

1269
01:01:41,585 --> 01:01:43,555
If you read this again, do
you not try and fix this?

1270
01:01:43,705 --> 01:01:47,005
You have tried twice
and you can't fix this.

1271
01:01:47,075 --> 01:01:50,025
Like don't spend, you wasted
like so much time on it.

1272
01:01:50,505 --> 01:01:51,355
There's stuff like that.

1273
01:01:51,375 --> 01:01:55,945
And I look back and I'm always like,
like, Oh, this is so bad in some places.

1274
01:01:55,945 --> 01:01:59,465
But you know, the customer
doesn't care about that stuff.

1275
01:01:59,925 --> 01:02:01,865
And the customer experience is fine.

1276
01:02:01,875 --> 01:02:02,915
Like the user experience.

1277
01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:04,070
It's fine.

1278
01:02:04,070 --> 01:02:04,780
It's not slow.

1279
01:02:04,780 --> 01:02:05,970
It's not delayed.

1280
01:02:05,970 --> 01:02:07,740
Like to them, it's all, it's great.

1281
01:02:08,050 --> 01:02:12,900
And so this is kind of just, um,
you know, this is like just me being

1282
01:02:12,900 --> 01:02:14,310
like, Oh, I want it to be perfect.

1283
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:16,910
You know, and that's really hard for me.

1284
01:02:17,340 --> 01:02:22,290
I like it being perfect, but I have to
kind of, I think I've got better at this.

1285
01:02:22,320 --> 01:02:25,780
Like I kinda, I'm like, there's
literally no time to do that.

1286
01:02:26,540 --> 01:02:29,430
And that's the constraint that
we have being a small team.

1287
01:02:29,670 --> 01:02:30,250
It's like, we don't.

1288
01:02:30,815 --> 01:02:32,615
Like I don't like it, but
there's no time to do that.

1289
01:02:32,615 --> 01:02:33,985
We have to do all this other stuff.

1290
01:02:34,765 --> 01:02:38,195
So I'm kind of glad that I
have that constraint, but it's

1291
01:02:38,235 --> 01:02:41,185
constraints are really good sometimes
to push you along, you know,

1292
01:02:42,115 --> 01:02:46,105
Benjamin: I'll say too, from my
personal personal perspective that

1293
01:02:46,195 --> 01:02:49,815
I've been writing code of various
types for, 15, 20 years now.

1294
01:02:49,815 --> 01:02:54,685
And I can go back and look at something I
wrote 15 years ago and go, who wrote that?

1295
01:02:54,685 --> 01:02:55,975
That is amazing.

1296
01:02:56,045 --> 01:02:56,325
Damn.

1297
01:02:56,325 --> 01:02:57,125
I was smart.

1298
01:02:57,715 --> 01:03:00,705
I can look at similar code that
I wrote 10 years ago and say

1299
01:03:00,705 --> 01:03:02,035
like, wow, that was terrible.

1300
01:03:02,305 --> 01:03:03,795
There's such a better way to do that now.

1301
01:03:03,795 --> 01:03:09,325
So there's actually no like looking back
in history, like there's no guarantee

1302
01:03:09,325 --> 01:03:12,425
that you're going to look back and
say like, that was good or bad because

1303
01:03:12,435 --> 01:03:16,645
you you'll always write something
that could be improved or was really.

1304
01:03:16,865 --> 01:03:19,245
perfectly elegant at the time,
and you wrote it in the way that

1305
01:03:19,245 --> 01:03:20,875
made sense to you at the time.

1306
01:03:20,875 --> 01:03:24,625
And, you know, so the more you, the
more code you write, the more you

1307
01:03:24,625 --> 01:03:28,780
realize, like, Um, like my friend
Mattia always said, all code is broken.

1308
01:03:29,170 --> 01:03:30,720
Like all software is broken.

1309
01:03:30,740 --> 01:03:33,020
You're always going to write
something that is broken and there's

1310
01:03:33,030 --> 01:03:37,880
no, there's no way to write a
unbreakable routine or function.

1311
01:03:37,940 --> 01:03:39,770
You know, there's always going
to be something wrong with it.

1312
01:03:39,770 --> 01:03:43,040
So like letting go of those things
and just saying like, it works.

1313
01:03:43,460 --> 01:03:43,770
Marie Ng: Yeah.

1314
01:03:44,060 --> 01:03:44,150
Yeah.

1315
01:03:44,150 --> 01:03:45,400
That's the main goal, right?

1316
01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:46,060
The main goal.

1317
01:03:46,060 --> 01:03:48,580
Like if it's, if it works, like it's good.

1318
01:03:49,150 --> 01:03:52,110
Um, also like short, shorter
code versus longer codes.

1319
01:03:52,110 --> 01:03:52,860
Like sometimes.

1320
01:03:53,165 --> 01:03:54,605
I used to try and get
it like more efficient.

1321
01:03:54,885 --> 01:03:56,225
And then after a while
I'm like, you know what?

1322
01:03:56,235 --> 01:03:56,975
I can't even read it.

1323
01:03:57,335 --> 01:04:00,855
I can't read what I just, it takes
me longer to read the short code

1324
01:04:00,855 --> 01:04:04,555
because it's like, it's not as
clear what's happening sometimes.

1325
01:04:05,095 --> 01:04:08,535
And like, this is the thing, like, uh,
me and me and my other dev, we talk

1326
01:04:08,545 --> 01:04:12,245
about this sometimes is that it doesn't
matter if it's longer, like as long

1327
01:04:12,245 --> 01:04:15,185
as someone, the most junior person in
the team has to be able to read that.

1328
01:04:15,265 --> 01:04:15,815
And that's me.

1329
01:04:16,075 --> 01:04:19,175
So like, sometimes I'm like, I don't
understand what you've written here.

1330
01:04:19,205 --> 01:04:19,795
And.

1331
01:04:20,240 --> 01:04:24,090
Um, you know, and so we're like,
okay, well maybe we'll just add

1332
01:04:24,090 --> 01:04:27,830
a few extra lines and that's
fine, like completely fine.

1333
01:04:27,830 --> 01:04:30,780
It still does the same thing, but
as long as we can both read it.

1334
01:04:31,615 --> 01:04:32,065
We often

1335
01:04:32,075 --> 01:04:36,675
Benjamin: forget that most code in some
way is compiled and so the code that gets

1336
01:04:36,675 --> 01:04:40,495
run is not the code that you write and so
you can write the exact same code with a

1337
01:04:40,495 --> 01:04:44,955
variable that says n or you could write
what actually n is and then it's more

1338
01:04:44,955 --> 01:04:48,445
readable and it's gonna, you know, the,
the, the compilers are going to optimize

1339
01:04:48,445 --> 01:04:53,695
your code for, so you want to optimize
for being able to read and, and I think

1340
01:04:53,705 --> 01:04:56,975
that's like a lot of, a lot of people make
the argument, don't try to be clever in

1341
01:04:56,975 --> 01:05:00,675
your code or, you know, Do the what they
call code golf where you're trying to get

1342
01:05:01,045 --> 01:05:03,135
the same result with the fewest swings.

1343
01:05:03,145 --> 01:05:05,405
So like that kind of thing.

1344
01:05:05,875 --> 01:05:09,245
Um, it's tricky because you
want to be you want to be fancy.

1345
01:05:09,245 --> 01:05:11,975
Sometimes it's fun to to play
around with it a little bit.

1346
01:05:12,105 --> 01:05:14,805
But yeah, if you're working with
the team, that's where it becomes

1347
01:05:14,805 --> 01:05:16,315
really important to not be clever.

1348
01:05:16,315 --> 01:05:18,405
Just make it work as as well as it can.

1349
01:05:18,415 --> 01:05:19,335
You know, what's your like

1350
01:05:19,345 --> 01:05:23,765
Marie: next edge to grow like you've
obviously been learning a ton over the

1351
01:05:23,765 --> 01:05:27,735
years, whether it's on the code side or
even like, uh, you know, raising thing.

1352
01:05:28,105 --> 01:05:29,175
seed money and all that.

1353
01:05:29,185 --> 01:05:32,135
It's like, what's the next thing that's
maybe around the corner, like something

1354
01:05:32,135 --> 01:05:35,145
that's lighting you up or something
that you want to learn more about next?

1355
01:05:35,575 --> 01:05:35,955
Marie Ng: Yeah.

1356
01:05:35,955 --> 01:05:40,575
So from the life side, I think one
of the things I'm working on is, I

1357
01:05:40,585 --> 01:05:44,045
guess, to be more in touch with how
I'm feeling, like sort of emotions.

1358
01:05:44,045 --> 01:05:48,765
And I really think a lot of
entrepreneurship startups to running

1359
01:05:48,765 --> 01:05:51,825
your own business, like it's, I feel
like so much of it is like a mental

1360
01:05:51,835 --> 01:05:55,745
game, you know, like, You know, I was
talking about the reasons for business

1361
01:05:55,745 --> 01:05:58,745
fail failings, like money or motivation.

1362
01:05:58,785 --> 01:06:02,565
And, you know, in the motivation
bucket, I think part of that's

1363
01:06:02,565 --> 01:06:04,345
like meant it's a mental game.

1364
01:06:04,345 --> 01:06:07,065
And I know that I have
good days and bad days.

1365
01:06:07,195 --> 01:06:10,425
And it's, it's always to do is
like mentally how I'm feeling

1366
01:06:10,425 --> 01:06:11,755
or emotionally how I'm feeling.

1367
01:06:11,755 --> 01:06:16,935
So I'm really trying to work on, I don't
have any courses that I'm looking at.

1368
01:06:17,295 --> 01:06:18,745
I I'm, I'm very much like.

1369
01:06:19,325 --> 01:06:21,325
Want to solve it myself kind of thing.

1370
01:06:21,865 --> 01:06:22,565
That's good and bad.

1371
01:06:22,565 --> 01:06:26,005
Like, I think sometimes I should just,
you know, if someone, someone else has

1372
01:06:26,005 --> 01:06:28,655
already figured it out, they should
probably just tell me and I can try.

1373
01:06:28,675 --> 01:06:32,575
But like, often I like to just try and
figure it out myself, but I'm working

1374
01:06:32,575 --> 01:06:38,675
on that to be more aware of how I'm
feeling and not fighting it and just

1375
01:06:38,685 --> 01:06:44,405
kind of acknowledging it and maybe
stopping, like if I'm in a problem I

1376
01:06:44,405 --> 01:06:48,535
can't solve or just feeling frustrated,
like just stopping, that's very hard

1377
01:06:48,535 --> 01:06:50,275
for me, I just kind of keep wanting to.

1378
01:06:50,660 --> 01:06:51,570
Go keep going.

1379
01:06:52,210 --> 01:06:56,780
So I'm working on that for, from a life
sort of personal perspective, um, from

1380
01:06:56,780 --> 01:07:01,220
a business perspective, our goal is to
be, you know, the number one brand when,

1381
01:07:01,280 --> 01:07:04,360
you know, that people think about when
they're trying to, to improve their

1382
01:07:04,360 --> 01:07:06,890
focus, their attention, managing that.

1383
01:07:07,345 --> 01:07:11,395
Um, and help people get through their
day, like in a calm, productive way.

1384
01:07:12,395 --> 01:07:15,045
I think mobile is a huge part of that.

1385
01:07:15,695 --> 01:07:18,735
Uh, from a distribution perspective,
it just makes a lot of sense.

1386
01:07:18,745 --> 01:07:23,395
Like even if they, even if people end up
using the desktop product, I think from

1387
01:07:23,395 --> 01:07:25,385
a distribution perspective, people just.

1388
01:07:25,770 --> 01:07:27,710
Go to the app store a lot.

1389
01:07:28,170 --> 01:07:32,050
And when we had just the desktop
product, people would say to us like,

1390
01:07:32,260 --> 01:07:33,630
Oh, I can't find you in the app store.

1391
01:07:34,060 --> 01:07:35,160
Like that's where they went first.

1392
01:07:35,160 --> 01:07:37,260
They didn't go to just Google on the web.

1393
01:07:37,270 --> 01:07:39,270
They just went to the app store.

1394
01:07:39,660 --> 01:07:42,790
So, you know, our goal is
to get featured by Apple.

1395
01:07:43,020 --> 01:07:47,370
Um, and I'm sure we're going to get
featured because I just feel like

1396
01:07:47,370 --> 01:07:51,890
the app store is, they're constantly
looking for products to highlight.

1397
01:07:52,225 --> 01:07:53,135
Like new products.

1398
01:07:53,605 --> 01:07:59,475
Uh, so far we've had, I think it's
like 88 reviews globally and 4.

1399
01:07:59,475 --> 01:08:00,275
9 star average.

1400
01:08:00,755 --> 01:08:02,895
Which is just, it's so great.

1401
01:08:02,895 --> 01:08:06,645
Like it's the best feeling for me ever
that other people can see the value in it.

1402
01:08:07,225 --> 01:08:09,475
But Apple will feature products
if they're, you know, they have to

1403
01:08:09,485 --> 01:08:13,365
obviously tick a few boxes, like have
good ratings and stuff and be new.

1404
01:08:13,575 --> 01:08:16,355
And I think we're different enough from
other productivity apps to go, Hey,

1405
01:08:16,355 --> 01:08:18,385
there's something have to check this out.

1406
01:08:18,385 --> 01:08:18,645
You know, there's.

1407
01:08:19,435 --> 01:08:22,445
A fun lummer and it's, it looks
different and cute and stuff.

1408
01:08:22,895 --> 01:08:27,195
So that's kind of like our, our team goal
is like, we want to get featured and we

1409
01:08:27,195 --> 01:08:28,435
think it's going to happen this year.

1410
01:08:28,725 --> 01:08:32,635
Uh, and hopefully that gives it a
little bit of a, of a boost as well, you

1411
01:08:32,635 --> 01:08:34,665
know, from a distribution perspective.

1412
01:08:35,325 --> 01:08:39,635
Benjamin: I have one last question that
we didn't really touch on, um, why llama?

1413
01:08:40,005 --> 01:08:41,365
Marie Ng: Oh, yeah, good question.

1414
01:08:41,975 --> 01:08:42,945
Yeah, this is so funny.

1415
01:08:42,945 --> 01:08:48,655
So, all right, so, um, all right,
so it goes back to, it goes back

1416
01:08:48,655 --> 01:08:50,695
to a trip that I took pre COVID.

1417
01:08:50,945 --> 01:08:56,200
I went to Peru, I think it was
2018, I want to say, It was,

1418
01:08:56,260 --> 01:08:58,200
uh, like a soul searching trip.

1419
01:08:58,350 --> 01:09:02,040
I went with my best friend, we went to
do like Machu Picchu and like a lot of

1420
01:09:02,130 --> 01:09:06,490
hiking and stuff and just trying to,
yeah, just reconnect with ourselves.

1421
01:09:06,990 --> 01:09:11,170
And as part of that trip, we went
to visit this small village, there's

1422
01:09:11,170 --> 01:09:15,555
about 30 people, and um, these people
were like, just, they were so nice.

1423
01:09:16,435 --> 01:09:18,525
They had no modern conveniences.

1424
01:09:18,535 --> 01:09:21,635
They didn't have like running water, uh,
they didn't have internet or anything

1425
01:09:21,635 --> 01:09:25,675
like that, but they had a lot of llamas
and they were basically using the llamas,

1426
01:09:25,775 --> 01:09:31,105
like the, the wool or whatever on their
backs to create, um, things to sell.

1427
01:09:31,105 --> 01:09:34,015
Like they would sell bracelets
and, you know, sweaters and stuff.

1428
01:09:34,400 --> 01:09:35,430
It was their livelihood.

1429
01:09:36,170 --> 01:09:39,900
And I just remember, like we
had lunch with them and I just

1430
01:09:39,900 --> 01:09:44,050
remember that, like, these people
are so happy, content and calm.

1431
01:09:44,580 --> 01:09:44,770
Right.

1432
01:09:44,770 --> 01:09:48,130
And that's, that feeling stuck with me
over, you know, the next couple of years.

1433
01:09:48,480 --> 01:09:51,240
So when I was trying to find a name
for the product, I was like, Oh,

1434
01:09:51,920 --> 01:09:55,660
we're trying to find like a name that
to me sort of means something like,

1435
01:09:55,670 --> 01:09:57,885
yeah, calm and relaxing and just.

1436
01:09:58,635 --> 01:10:00,825
content and not stressed, basically.

1437
01:10:00,855 --> 01:10:01,725
They weren't stressed.

1438
01:10:01,735 --> 01:10:05,225
Like these folks just had a
nice, peaceful kind of life.

1439
01:10:05,595 --> 01:10:08,185
And so I was like, Oh, Lama,
you know, that, that, that trip.

1440
01:10:08,585 --> 01:10:11,695
So it was called Lama to
begin with, not Lama life.

1441
01:10:12,225 --> 01:10:16,005
And then I couldn't like
get the domain lama.

1442
01:10:16,195 --> 01:10:16,605
com.

1443
01:10:17,265 --> 01:10:19,255
And so I was like, Oh,
what else could this be?

1444
01:10:19,265 --> 01:10:24,355
And, um, people started calling it
Lama life, like our community started

1445
01:10:24,355 --> 01:10:28,405
calling it, like they used to say,
Oh, I want to live the Lama life.

1446
01:10:28,435 --> 01:10:29,865
Like they would make these comments.

1447
01:10:29,865 --> 01:10:30,145
Right.

1448
01:10:30,555 --> 01:10:30,895
And.

1449
01:10:31,355 --> 01:10:35,875
They were also, um, people were
sending us drawings as well.

1450
01:10:35,915 --> 01:10:37,625
Like it's so weird.

1451
01:10:37,625 --> 01:10:40,835
Like, yeah, that's what I mean by there's
something different about this product.

1452
01:10:40,835 --> 01:10:45,075
Like people sending us drawings
of, um, living the llama life and

1453
01:10:45,075 --> 01:10:46,375
they would draw like some llama.

1454
01:10:46,785 --> 01:10:51,615
And I'm like, Oh, maybe llama life is a
better name because the word life kind

1455
01:10:51,615 --> 01:10:56,375
of makes you think I'm aspiring to a
lifestyle, like a lifestyle of being calm

1456
01:10:56,375 --> 01:10:58,725
and productive versus just an animal.

1457
01:10:59,830 --> 01:11:03,470
Um, yeah, so then it changed to
LlamaLife and I couldn't get LlamaLife.

1458
01:11:03,510 --> 01:11:05,330
com, I had to get LlamaLife.

1459
01:11:05,410 --> 01:11:09,520
co and I've tried to get the com
and this person won't sell it to me.

1460
01:11:10,070 --> 01:11:13,870
I'll keep emailing them every now
and again, but it's LlamaLife.

1461
01:11:13,920 --> 01:11:16,830
co and I don't think it matters
so much once the app, you know,

1462
01:11:17,940 --> 01:11:19,590
the app gets more traction, but.

1463
01:11:20,010 --> 01:11:21,390
That's why it's called Llama Life.

1464
01:11:22,540 --> 01:11:23,010
Benjamin: Awesome.

1465
01:11:23,200 --> 01:11:24,100
That's such a good story.

1466
01:11:24,260 --> 01:11:27,690
So where can people find out more
about you and sign up for Llama Life?

1467
01:11:28,100 --> 01:11:29,980
Marie Ng: Um, so you
can go to the App Store.

1468
01:11:30,160 --> 01:11:31,400
It's on iOS at the moment.

1469
01:11:31,410 --> 01:11:34,700
We are working on Android,
so that will be here soon.

1470
01:11:35,270 --> 01:11:39,040
Um, so yeah, just in the App
Store, or they can go to LlamaLife.

1471
01:11:39,770 --> 01:11:41,480
co, or find me on Twitter.

1472
01:11:41,480 --> 01:11:42,915
So I'm on Twitter as Llama Life.

1473
01:11:43,145 --> 01:11:46,255
At three hour coffee, spelled
out three hour coffee.

1474
01:11:46,555 --> 01:11:47,015
Awesome.

1475
01:11:47,045 --> 01:11:47,955
Thanks so much for chatting

1476
01:11:47,955 --> 01:11:48,135
Benjamin: with us.

1477
01:11:48,135 --> 01:11:48,585
Thanks so much for

1478
01:11:48,585 --> 01:11:49,285
Marie Ng: sharing your story.

1479
01:11:49,285 --> 01:11:49,885
Cool.

1480
01:11:49,895 --> 01:11:50,815
Thank you for having me.

1481
01:11:50,915 --> 01:11:51,455
It was really fun.