Sid (00:00.283)
We got that countdown last time.

tyson (00:01.874)
No, you know why because I actually hit record before you got to the studio because I try to I try to make it as least awkward as possible for people who don't do it all the time And I feel like that five second countdown sometimes just makes it a little bit. Um, I don't know just a bit yuck Anyway, hey long time no see

Sid (00:16.291)
Yeah, yeah, got it.

Yeah, man, nice to meet you. I know we haven't had a chance to.

tyson (00:24.075)
So for everyone listening, I think most people who listen to this podcast would have absolutely no idea about the fact that I host another podcast outside of this. So for anyone who is a regular here, I host a podcast which is called Pop Culture, which I think is a really clever play on my last name, but no one seems to get that reference. And I reached out to Sid, must have been a little while ago now. And we had an awesome conversation there last week. But during the course of that conversation.

Naturally, like so many conversations with me, the topic of running came up and then the topic of your new book came up. And I said, well, surely there's a whole episode worth of a podcast about your new book, which is, you know, getting ready for release in a couple of months time. And we both seem to agree. So I invited you on here. And it's nice to have an excuse to be able to focus solely on the ultra running scene. But you said what just Saturday you ran an ultra yourself.

Sid (01:19.403)
Yeah, three days ago, three days ago. Yeah. A absolute monster. Like I, we can talk about it, but I on purpose a few years ago, and I talked about this in the book decided, well, I did it as an experiment, but I did it again this time, which is to purposely not research anything about the race. So I had no idea about kind of, I didn't know about the course really. And it was a way harder than I like, I direct a race myself and my race is not easy, it's not the super hardest, but it's not

easy by far. This was like my race. I told the race director who's a buddy of mine ago, your race is like makes my race look like a leisurely walk along the Thames. Like it was a whole another world of I couldn't believe how hard it was. And you know, we can talk about another book because I'm not a great athlete by any stretch of imagination. And it was a 50 55k 32 miles. It took me not a joke. 10 hours and 40 minutes. Yeah, it was brutal. Now we can talk about the mistake I made.

by not knowing what was going on, but it was 10 hours and four. I didn't, I don't remember the watch and I specifically didn't look at my phone. So I didn't realize I was out that long until about, I had about a mile and a half left and I glanced at my phone and I was like, Oh no, I've been out here this long. And I was feeling it. So yeah, anyways, interesting, interesting experience.

tyson (02:30.818)
So what was the course? It obviously sounds like it was mountainous or treacherous or there was...

Sid (02:35.019)
It just never had it never had flat. I mean, I don't remember there being one flat, there might have been like a half a mile total kind of cumulation of flat. Otherwise, it was steep ups and steep downs, like the whole time it was the word he used to describe it was relentless. And I saw that word early on. And I was like, that's not a good that's not a good sign. Relentless is not a good way to describe so it was. It was just I thought I just need a break of hills for like a minute and it just never came. It was just either way up or way down. And so it was pounding or

brutal climbing and it was just for 32 miles straight. I never got flat. I mean, it was unbelievable. I've never done anything like that in my life.

tyson (03:12.09)
One thing that I reckon people who don't know much about running probably don't appreciate is the difficulty not only of the uphills but of the downhills. I remember I went to Nepal back in 2015 and I had in my mind that the mountains that we were climbing would be really hard and we did a number of warm up mountains and they were quite steep especially in parts and the guy that I was climbing with he had climbed Everest three times. I mean he was a really experienced climber.

And he goes, mate, you think uphill's difficult, wait until we turn around with these bags and try and go back down. And even I then was like, I don't completely understand what you mean. But then there was just so many factors, obviously that constant stability, like your quad muscles are constantly tense and then you're balanced. And then, yeah, it was just a wild experience. And he got to a point with some of the more mild descents where he would just start running because he just got so over the boredom of the slow walk. And I think that's the...

Sid (03:42.134)
Oh yeah.

Sid (04:01.216)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

tyson (04:04.674)
part of the hard part, not just the physical pressure of the downhill balance, the things I just mentioned, but also just what feels so monotonous, the slow pace of the descent. You think downhills is where the fast action happens. So when you turn around and you realize it's just as hard as the uphill, psychologically, I mean, especially in a 32 mile race, that's pretty difficult to navigate.

Sid (04:26.019)
Yeah, and you're running, you know, it's a run, it's a run race. So some of the hills are so steep going up that it's, it's actually more efficient to climb to hike than it is to, sorry, than it is to run. Right. And so on the downhills though, you run. And so what I always find for me is that the first part of the race, the uphills are harder, they take it's just cardiovascular and then the downhills are kind of nice as the race starts to continue the downhills become way harder because the pounding on your legs is absolutely brutal because you're running the whole time and you're.

you're running down the hills and it's just, it's just, and these were steep downhills. A lot. Some of these things were like, some of the things I actually had to hike a little bit downhill because running would just be too crazy. But running downhill and just the pounding my quads were just blown by about mile 20. And I don't know, don't even know how I pulled the finish out because obviously it took me a while 10 hours and 40 minutes to run 50k. I mean, crazy. But anyways, yeah. The lake Sonoma 55k. And

tyson (05:17.046)
What was the name of the race? And it's obviously renowned that you didn't realise it was renowned because you did no research leading into it for being just a hardcore race.

Sid (05:24.863)
I did. Yeah. And I buy and yeah, the race director is a guy named Skip brand who actually wrote the forward to my book. So he called me a couple months ago and he said, Hey, do you want to run the lakes and I'm a 55k and I'm busy with the book and I go, Yeah, great, great goes, I'll copy an entry, I go fun. And I don't and then I don't think about it at all after that, right. And then all of a sudden, the dates approaching and I'm super under trained. And and but you know, like I talked about in the book and we can get into that. But it's this book is about it's for normal people. It's not for elite athletes. And I'm one of these people who just multi running is not my

tyson (05:36.628)
Mm-hmm

Sid (05:54.635)
I don't I don't that's not my priority. And so I'm usually on paper, under trained. But I am for my race. I run that every year too. That's a 50k. And it's hard, but not like this. I mean, I it was a whole nother you know, they say what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. This one didn't kill me, but it also weakened me like it completely I'm not a stronger person for it. I'm like, this is so traumatizing. I'm like, and I finished the race and he looked at my face and he goes, I didn't want to tell you, man.

tyson (06:10.158)
Hehehehe. Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Sid (06:20.299)
I was like, this is so ridiculous. Like I was laughing. I was it's just so ridiculously hard. I couldn't believe our

tyson (06:26.107)
So tell me a little bit about the mindset of not researching the races before you get there. I understand that if the race is 1500 metres, but when you're talking about a 32-miler that might sucker punch you with hills and just treacherous terrain, that sounds too scary. The idea of being relaxed before a race or a training session for me involves me knowing roughly what it is I'm doing. And if all I knew is the distance, that's not quite enough. I want to know the course details.

Sid (06:51.364)
Yeah.

tyson (06:53.034)
I want to know the competition, the weather, perhaps that's me being a little too type A, but I'd love to hear your philosophy a little more about why you don't do that research.

Sid (07:01.875)
Yeah. And again, it was an experiment that I talked about the book that I did in 2017. So this was a one off idea. And it was it was, you know, my work as a as a coach, and we talked about this in your other podcast, but as a health coach, and is the company is called small steppers. And it is so it's I'm a nutritionist, but it's not about food. I'm a running coach. It's not really about running. I'm a breath coach. It's not I talk about those things. But it's first and foremost, from a stress management perspective, my approach is all about how to manage stress, then how to teach people how to negotiate.

healthier eating funny in the context of stress. So my experiment with regard to the ultra running was about the stress. It was like, okay, if I don't follow a training plan, if I'm not worried about it, if I go day by day, now, have you heard of the runner Courtney Dole Walter? She's one of the best. What one of the best of all time. I mean, she's insane. She's she wins outright, not just in women's, but all the way 200 miles. She's incredible. No training plan. No coach.

tyson (07:46.038)
Yes, yes one of the best ultra runners in the world

Sid (07:57.835)
No coach, I heard her on her interviewed on Rich's rituals podcast. And she's like, I just go out and kind of see where my legs are gonna take me that day. So I and I had found that out after like I just found that out. But that's where I was at on that 2017. I'd already done a few ultras. So I don't recommend this for people who are running their first, their first few were very much micromanaging the training and the diet and the what to eat during the runs. But this one, I thought, you know what, if I don't finish, it's okay, I've done a few it's I know I can do it. It's fine. Let me just see what it's like. So the idea was

no knowledge about the course. Don't follow a training plan. Don't follow a nutrition plan. I mean, I eat healthy most of the time. But in terms of my training runs, I would do nothing some days I would do a peanut butter and jelly sandwich some days I take some gels some days sometimes I just mixed it up. Nothing regular. Nothing about the course. Nothing about the aid stations where they were nothing showed up with a bottle of water, no backpack, nothing. And now the old races, Band-Aids extra shirt, socks, drop bag powders.

gels, the whole, you know, the whole thing. And I was like, what if I just show up with a bottle? And I had a great race day back in 2017 best ever relaxed. Now look, again, I'm not type a, I'm not people who assume ultra all ultra runners are type a, I didn't care about my time. I just wanted to see if I could have a good day. Same with this race. I wasn't out to, I didn't wear a watch. I don't wear a watch. I wanted to see if I can finish. Now this time the mistake I made was did the same thing.

And partly because I've been so busy with the book and everything else. I show up with my water bottle and I go, let's see how it goes. I show up to the first aid station in mile six. And by this time, I haven't had anything to eat. Be since an hour before the race start. Okay, race I eat I have a smoothie of fruit, which I usually do 5am 6am race starts. I show up to the first aid station. Water only. Now, I don't know if that was a mistake. But it was very weird. So I show up and I'm like, where's the thing? Oh, this is water only. I go, holy crap.

tyson (09:34.37)
Oh yeah.

Sid (09:53.511)
next station is not for almost seven more miles. Yeah, so I filled my water bottle. And at that point, I thought this is going to be kind of probably not so great. So by the time I show up to the second aid station, I'm 13 miles in haven't had a single calorie in like three and a half hours I am out of my head. I show up to the second aid station, this guy comes running, he sees my face. He goes, sit down, I'm getting your Coke. And he shows up with a with a Coca Cola. And I grabbed a handful oranges, and I just started eating oranges and drink.

not a probably a quarter's worth of Coke. And I thought to myself at this point, I was like, this may be it. Like if I don't recover from this, I'm out. And 10 minutes later, my brain came back into focus. And I was like, Alright, Len, I just went eight, I talked about this in the book, I just went aid station, aid station, I was like, Okay, let's just see. And I just sort of assessed it every time. So that was the big problem was that first stretch. If there had been an aid station at eight mile six, I think it would have been a very different day. But the fact that I went that long without any food at all, to catch plain ketchup for the rest of the day was real rough.

tyson (10:51.914)
Well, that's one of the most difficult things I've found. So my track and field career, or my running career was middle distance. Like the most that I ever really ran seriously was, I mean, I dabbled, I had a couple of 10K races, but I would say 1500 to 5K was my real sweet spot. Probably the 3K. And the idea of focusing that much on nutrition and things, obviously during the race especially, is just non-existent over a distance like that. But over the, no, exactly. And over the...

Sid (11:13.463)
You just, do you even eat? You don't even eat. You're done. Yeah. Finish up. Yeah.

tyson (11:17.914)
Over the last couple of years, or specifically the last, probably seven months, I'd been getting into some more marathon training. It was the first time I'd really seriously focused on trying to train a little more dedicated towards marathon. That's a whole nother podcast in itself, as everyone who listens to this podcast is so sick of hearing me complain about just how I didn't, I didn't appreciate how much the work that I used to put in actually got my body to a level to handle that training. So I've stepped in into that marathon running, going, oh, I can do this. I used to do it all the time.

And then my body's like, not yet, mate, we gotta work back into this. But that's a whole nother conversation that, as I said, everyone's gonna hear me talk about. But one of the takeaways for me on the long run is my least favorite feeling. I think in the history of my running experience is getting to three miles to go or five Ks to go and just feeling delirious and weak because you haven't nailed your nutrition. It's a horrible feeling. It's a horrible feeling mentally. It's a horrible feeling physically. Just that idea that every step feels

Sid (11:49.111)
Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Sid (12:09.851)
Mm-hmm.

tyson (12:16.322)
It just feels like a real effort. It feels like you've got gumboots on to a degree. I Can appreciate exactly where you're coming from but seven miles in for everyone who's just listening to this podcast We keep laughing because Sid's got a cute little cat that keeps jumping across the screen little attention seeker I mean he's welcome on the show but One of the things he as I said that I could really appreciate is just the difficulty Not just physically but psychologically when you find yourself in that situation now, I know

Sid (12:31.424)
Yeah, it's all it. It's all it.

tyson (12:44.086)
from our last conversation, you're not necessarily trying to break world records, but in order to get across the line, you wanna have some kind of fuel in the tank. So at that situation, what you're 13 miles in when you get the Coke and the oranges, you've still got pretty much 20 miles to go. Coke and oranges, say that again. 20 miles.

Sid (12:57.859)
That's right. 20 miles left. Yeah, 20 miles left, you know, and it was and that was part of the psychology to was like, I'm not even close to being halfway done, you know, and it was like, and I gotta tell you the 13 miles weren't no offense to road running. I've done I've done a couple of marathons not a lot. It wasn't really my thing. But this was 13 miles of nonstop hills. So this was not 13 miles of flat. This was 13 miles of

I think it had been three hours and three, like three and a half hours. I was already in three and a half hours. So by the time I, by the time I hit that a station, it had been. Almost five out four and a half hours before I, since I had anything to eat. And I didn't even have a ton. I had a smoothie. It was like a couple hundred calories an hour before the race start. So I had a couple hundred calories fast forward four and a half hours of brutal. Terrain that that's when I showed up to the second station and I was like, Oh my God, now the guy interesting, he was the name's Angus love his name.

he I found out later because I was like, find that dude and tell him thank you because he's the reason why I was able to finish because he saw my face and he knew something was not something was amiss. And so he made me sit down and brought me that stuff because I couldn't got it myself. And, and he and I saw him at a later aid station. He goes, damn, because I came in, I go, I'm here still because of you because he couldn't believe I was still like, he figured I was gonna drop, I know it. And he didn't want to say it, you know, but he had that look at his surprise, like, Oh, that guy's still in the race. That's amazing. You know, and I said,

tyson (14:15.97)
Ha ha ha!

Sid (14:22.727)
I owe you a thanks and or not and he and he you kind of saved the day. But yeah, and so it was just this like playing catch up man and psychologically just so rough, you know, at that point, that's why I do these things I do. It's mental. I do the I do these things for mental reasons, not for physical reasons, really.

tyson (14:40.298)
Yeah, before we get into talking about your book, which we'll do in a moment, that's actually one thing that I really missed about the running world, specifically from my very limited experiences in trail running. To be honest, mostly when I was around 13 or 14 was when I was doing trail runs, and then I just got so serious about the track that just never really featured in my training program. But one thing I remember quite clearly was that people like Angus, that community vibe that comes out in the trail running scene, it's something that I think I really miss and something that I think you don't probably...

get to experience in its full capacity in like a competitive scene. Like when it comes to track and field, it's me versus you, I wanna beat you and that's all there is to it. Sure, you've got people who are happy to see you do well and cheer you on, your little support crew, but there seems to be in the ultra running scene, especially these trail racing communities, a real appreciation for what it is that you're going through and the fact that a stranger comes up to you actually cares about your welfare. I mean, it speaks to the nature of the ultra running but.

There's a documentary on Netflix, and I'm completely blanking on its name, I'm sure you'll know. It's that race where pretty much you run a five mile loop. Correct, yeah, the Barkley Marathon. And I remember watching that and just seeing the insane pain that these people were putting themselves through. But the standout feature again was like, oh man, like it seems that everyone cares about how these people are doing. Like it's almost like a united task where it's like, hey, we're all putting ourselves together through this, we're all a little bit crazy.

Sid (15:46.083)
Oh, it's the Barkley. Yeah.

Sid (15:52.223)
Oh, that's crit. Crit. Yeah.

tyson (16:08.03)
Let's help each other out because it's going to be a long, long time if we're here by ourselves.

Sid (16:11.607)
Yeah. ultra running is it's I mean, that's why I wrote the book and I stumbled upon ultra running. Again, I'm not even like, I don't even have a history like you do. I was a two to three mile recreational runner. I did a 10k once I did a half marathon to try it and then like years later tried a marathon. But just like a two to three mile a day, few days a week. I mean, that's really what we're talking about here. And so I sort of stumbled in on it from reading this article about the tarahumara which later turned into the born to run book.

And I started getting on trails and it really just something clicked in me. And it was just that whole big experience. But when it, when I got to the actual sport of ultra running, it's like, you nailed it, it's it is its own animal in a way I've done a Spartan race before. I've done road, a couple of road marathons, like I said, and there's, there's a little more of a look at your watch data managing thing, whereas trail running isn't at least for guys like me, not that at all, that's why I don't want them with a, I don't want them to run over the watch, like it's about the scenery.

I had probably 10 runners pass me and go, do you want, do you need anything? I got water. I got snacks, like stopping during their race there. And they're stopping and they're going, you okay? And I go, yeah, cool. Thanks, man. But like this woman, she's like, I got stuff in my backpack. Do you need it? And I didn't want to bother her because she was kind of trucking along and I could tell she was going fast and she was on the, on the a hundred K. There was a simultaneous run going. So she's hundred. She's already done more miles than I have. And she's going, you look like you're crashing. Do you need anything? And I was like, no, I'm just taking it easy.

tyson (17:32.226)
Ha ha

Sid (17:34.311)
And, but she was like an opener backpack. It's like, give me food. It's it's got this I've heard stories of like competitors in the top spots. One goes off course and the other one who is competing. These are like the elite people going, Hey dude, you just took a wrong turn. Like there's no reason because they would win if that guy went off the course, but they're like correcting it's got it. I hope it doesn't become corporatized. I know there's some corporate, you know, there's a Nike team and a Hoka team, all that kind of crap. But in general, like my race that I direct.

No, there's nothing corporate. Like there's no sponsored runners. Like these are moms and dads. I tell this, this is, these are the run. I've directed this with it'll be in its seventh year in April. The Mendocino coast 50 K it's called. These are the people, this is the reason why I wrote the book because they're grant over four to five over 70 year olds every year finished my race over 70. This is a 33 to 34 mile run with over 5,000 feet of climb and four to five over seventies, at least 10 over sixties.

tyson (18:05.74)
you

tyson (18:24.927)
Mm.

Sid (18:32.855)
And they're coming across like, no, they're way faster than I am, by the way. And I'm going, this is a weird sport. They're not in fancy crap. They are show up in whatever the half of them are living in a van probably. And they're just doing this thing. And it's got this very under the radar vibe that I really dig. And I really took to it.

tyson (18:43.831)
Mm.

tyson (18:50.738)
It's funny that you say living in a van. It really strikes me as a similar sport with a different target as like rock climbing or as just the Alex Honnold world. Yeah, yeah, exactly right. That's part of, I don't know if I told you in the last podcast, but like when I'm not doing this, I'm a standup comedian. Like that's my big passion. I was over in West Australia doing that for the last four days since we spoke. So I'm not as sore as you.

Sid (18:57.475)
Yeah, subculture. Subculture.

Sid (19:08.143)
You told me.

tyson (19:13.678)
but I've been busy. But that's what I like about the comedy scene as well is that subculture nature. It's a little bit like you're out there and you're like, ah, like most people are in bed or most people are in a nice house or most people are working a corporate job. And I mean, like each of those I have no issue with necessarily, but it just doesn't necessarily suit me. And there's something about the idea of just doing something which is considered a little bit crazy.

Sid (19:15.052)
Yeah, yeah, totally.

Sid (19:31.107)
Me neither.

tyson (19:38.494)
to a majority of society, which is very appealing. And I definitely put ultra running in that category. But with all of that said, what I actually really like about your book and part of what I find so appealing about it is the title. We spoke about this briefly last week, the idea, well, your book's called Ultra Running for Normal People. And that seems almost like a paradox. Those two things don't click in a lot of people's mind. I can imagine it is. So.

Sid (19:43.8)
Me too.

Sid (19:55.023)
That's right.

Sid (19:59.659)
That's intentional. Yeah.

tyson (20:03.326)
I'll throw that at you and let you speak to that for a little bit, hear a little bit about the sort of motivation behind the book, but also a little bit about the motivation behind the title.

Sid (20:12.835)
Well, yeah, both the same thing. And again, like very inspired by the people who show up to run my race. And, and the, you know, again, like my own vibe, I hate to use the word vibe, but you know, back in Los Angeles days, I was a full-time musician, you know, indie rock musician and, um, very in indie, you know, but did okay, toured, toured Europe and things like that, but never, you know, super successful under the radar, and there was this kind of. Lockup when I discovered ultra running that I felt the same way with that, that I did with my.

music career was indie. It was like you like in a club in a comedy club. It was like that. I love that stuff. I always wanted to be more successful, but I wasn't. And so I sort of was like, Okay, if this is my thing, this is my thing. So my race that I direct sells out every year 150 I cap it at 150. It's a small race. I greet every written runner when they come across. I love that personal nature of it. I love the connection. I love the being out in nature. I love the I call in the book wild attention, the forced attention that being on a trail makes you can't zone out, you got to be there.

And I like the camaraderie of other runners going through the same kinds of things. This is not, you know, look at me raw raw. This is like, kind of, you know, the last chapter is called test your metal. You know, this is like putting our asses on the line. Sometimes when you stand on stage as a comedian, it's, I can't imagine I've never done that. And it's like the first heckle, I'd be like, Oh, my God, and I would just run screaming from the club. Like I, I appreciate comedians like nobody's business, you know, like I really do. And I used to make my living as an actor never did stand up.

And I really appreciate that kind of thing. So when I went to write the book, first of all, there's 1000 ultra running guides out there that had no interest to me at all. I'm a running coach, but I've no I don't train elite athletes. I've no I've no desire to what I what drew me to that sport. And what I realized is that people who are showing up to do my race are not elite athletes, not even in mindset. These are not even weekend warriors. These are moms and dads and grandmas and grandpas and people with full time jobs, and kids and commutes.

And they're just doing this thing. And I was like, why are they doing this? Like what? And, but I had to ask myself, like, why am I doing this? And that was what I wanted to answer in the book. What are, what did I learn from ultra running? What is it? The subtitles life lessons learned on and off the trail, because I made a complete symbiotic relationship between what happens on that trail and what happens in my life. And it, and those both inform each other and I really dug it. So I wanted to make a book that wasn't another training guide that tells you what kind of shoes to wear.

Sid (22:41.111)
It's got basic guides in the back, but no chart specific, no training plan. It's all mindset. This whole book is mindset. This whole book is what do you get when you're out on the trails? That is not like anything else you ever do exercise wise period. And I'm not knocking any other kind of exercise, but it's nothing like ultra running on a trail. That's a whole, it's the being on the trail and it's the distances of ultra running. It's when you're at mile 30 and you're feeling like I did, what is that thing that pulled me through? It wasn't data. I wasn't trying to pick a time.

I was trying to finish what got me to the point where I was literally going to quit and put and push through that. What is what is that thing? That's why I wanted to explore in the book. It's part memoir, it's part philosophy, it's part mindset, a lot of mindset and a little bit of guide a little bit of you know, specifics at the end, but not much. And so I really wanted to explore that. And I wanted to appeal to people who in their brains go, I would I could never do that. I'm like, if I can do it, trust me, you can do it. And I wanted to see, you know, if I made that sell, who knows?

tyson (23:36.105)
Yeah.

It's really interesting to see the motivations behind why people get involved in a sport like ultra running because you often think And like I think from the outside you'll often think that they're People who have been athletes all their life and that's what I like about the scene is because you scratch only the very surface and you realize quickly in fact a Lot of the time it's the that people have been athletes their whole life who are the exceptions in this particular scene And I don't know so I first heard of you and we've got a lot of listeners in this podcast who also like rich roll

Sid (24:03.408)
That's right.

tyson (24:08.646)
I first heard you speak on Rich Rolls podcast. Another guy that I'd listened to on Rich's podcast was a guy called Mishka Shubali. I don't know if you know Mishka, but he's a, of him. So I don't know him personally. I reached out to him after I actually had heard him, but then also listened to his book, The Long Run, I think it's called, which was like a Kindle single, like one of the most popular Kindle singles of all time. And he spoke about this journey of him.

Sid (24:15.515)
Mm-hmm. I know of him. Yeah.

tyson (24:35.906)
from, he was a musician, but a drug addict, alcoholic, pretty much a person who in his own words, had no hope, had no future, had nothing really going for him apart from his drug addiction and his need to get more drugs. And this guy found that, I mean, over the course of, and get the book if you wanna hear it in more detail, it's pretty graphic, it's pretty in your face. It was like, oh my gosh, this is insane. But.

In this guy's book, he spoke about how gradually the attitude that he put towards drugs and alcohol started to filter across to this at least interest in the world of ultra running. And I found that interesting because it seems to be a sport which quite addictive personalities can, I mean, I don't want to stereotype because as you say, like there's so many different kinds of backgrounds that come in, but with this particular reference to Mishka, he spoke about how his attitude of addiction

was better placed on something which is usually, unless it's the 33 mile that you just did on the weekend, usually in favor of your physical health. So I don't know from your perspective, like when you stand there, is there a particular standout as to what kind of person it is? Like from what I see, it seems that normal people, when you're in there, are actually a far bigger part of the sport than what you'd ever recognize.

Sid (25:53.523)
I think that's, I think that's true. Now I, you know, I make sure to define normal person is it's not a, it's not a good or bad thing. It's like a, it just means people who aren't all about running essentially. Right. And so I have people who have never run a race before. Now I want to be clear. I don't mean never run an ultra. I mean, never run a race. They've never run a marathon, a half marathon, a 10 K and they're showing up to do a 50 K. There's something weird and magical. And I don't, I'm not a woo guy, but there's something weird and magical about this sport.

tyson (26:04.342)
Yeah. Sure.

Sid (26:22.959)
That gets people to just, I don't know, man. I think it's like, I also look at it in context of social media, how disconnected we're becoming. We're my first book is called approaching the natural. We're becoming less and less natural as, as every day goes by. And I see in this sport hope for people to reconnect at least sometimes. I'm not leaving the world. I'm not on social media as we talked about in your other podcast, but I have a job and I drive a car and I fly in airplanes and I do all the, I raised three, I'm raising three kids with my wife on paper. I'm the most.

boring, normal kind of person. But I do this thing and it isn't a raw raw. I cannot get across how not a raw rod is at least for me. And it sure it is for people, but people who show up to my race. I'm not telling, I'm not kidding. 1% of them give a crap about the finish and time. The rest come across the finish line in tears, not from pain, tears from release and relief, and it's scary to put yourself out there like this. And you're

all of a sudden you're concerned about failure, but then you're redefining failure because you're showing up to the, to the start line the first place and you get to see what that's like. And you're moving, you're, you're afraid. And like I was on Friday night, terrified because I'm kind of undertrained. So I'm like, what is it? And then I'm like, why am I afraid? I can always drop, but then there's the pressure, right? And you're feeling, so my publisher, about two weeks before I ran the race, the editor, this great, she's awesome. Her name's Avalon. She calls me and she goes, listen, or she emails. She goes, so.

tyson (27:36.065)
Ha ha.

tyson (27:39.832)
Yeah.

Sid (27:50.463)
I'm writing the copy for the back cover. How many ultras have you done? And I said, Well, counting my race, because I run mine the day before I've done nine. And I said, I'm about to do one in a couple weeks. He goes, Okay, so I'll put 10. I go cool, right? I don't think about it, right. Now I'm standing at the starting line. I go, I gotta finish this thing. Otherwise, the back cover is a lie. And I start feeling this in my brain just like this pressure of like, oh, no, you know, and that's the kind of stuff that happens. And I will tell you, this is not an exaggeration. 85% of that day, I was by myself.

And I mean, nobody even in sight, not even a runner in front or behind by myself. And I talk about this in the book. Often you start as a group and then the trail turns into a single track. And all of a sudden you're by yourself and your thoughts and your fears and your worries and your pressures and your, and your, you're paying attention and your feeling stressed and your it's all, and you start missing your family. It's like a, and that's why people come across for crying because there's so much built up and they've had all these things.

tyson (28:20.383)
Mm.

tyson (28:44.176)
Yeah

Sid (28:49.891)
that they're struggling with. We all do. And, and I don't have a coach. You know, these are people who don't have coaches. They're out there busting ass, man. They're making a half. They're getting up an hour earlier than usual to kind of get a run in and seeing those people across the finish line. I must cry like 10 times or more on race day. Just seeing people across my finish line. Emotional. It's like a release. They hug me. They don't even know me. It's just, they've kind of been taken bearer and it's, it's a pretty life changing thing and I just, I just want more people to try it essentially.

tyson (29:01.914)
Yeah.

tyson (29:05.718)
Yeah.

tyson (29:18.822)
Man, that could be a good launchpad into your book. And as I said, I don't think we were recording when I told you, but just for everyone listening, I haven't had the chance to read through the whole thing yet, I've been sent a PDF and I've had a scroll through and I had a good look at a number of the chapters and what you've just spoken about there hits on chapter one. So I like the idea and I really like the chapter titles and I like the fact that I feel as though a sport like ultra running is perhaps a perfect metaphor in many regards to.

you know, the way you approach that is a great way to approach life. And looking through this list that I've got written down in front of me, you go, OK, well, it seems perfect. And so with that, let me throw the chapter title at you. You feel free to speak to me about, you know, what the message behind it is, what the meaning behind it is. And then, man, I've got plenty that I can contribute to these points as well if we have time. But you get you get the microphone. So chapter one was to continue with what you're just saying, moving through the fear.

Sid (30:15.819)
Yes, every chapter is its own lesson. So the first one is to the lesson one to move through fear. So this, so this again, at you know, in my work with clients as a stress management, and somebody wants to eat well, and any challenge that we take on anything that we want to do to improve our lives, there's going to be stress associated with that, because it's a new thing. And there's an oftentimes there's fear. And any challenge we place on us is married to the idea that we could fail at that challenge.

And we're all afraid of failure. And a lot of times that happens is that we say, we're not even going to try because of the failure possibility, we're not even going to attempt the thing in the first place. And that's a really interesting thing for me. That's why it's so never about grams of carbohydrates. It's like, we'll talk about that. And like, that's not, that's not, that's like the, that's like the data gathering. What we're talking about is the big picture stuff, the big questions. And I signed up for my first ultra having run two marathons.

The previous year road marathons didn't do very well, you know, whatever. I did okay. Four hours and whatever didn't enjoy them. And then I stumbled upon trail running. I'm like, people run on trails. I'm not even kidding. Cause I was like the people hike. Nobody runs on trails. I just didn't know. So I've started running on trails and it was like ding, ding. That's the thing that I loved. Then I was like, oh, okay. Well, maybe I'll try one. So I sign up for this 50 miler, not a 50 K 50 mile.

so out of my wheelhouse, I can't even tell you like it's a not a joke, like completely out of me. And I, by the way, I appreciate elite athletes, you know, like, ritual is one of them. Scott juric, you know, like these guys look at them. I'm like, Courtney Dolwater. I'm like, holy crap, like, it's amazing, but I can't really relate to them. Like they're elite athletes. And I'm this dude who is not built like a good runner and certainly not a great runner. And I'm signing up for this thing. And I'm going, what, like, what am I doing? And I don't have to do it.

It's a choice. Nobody's for nobody even suggested it. It was the thing of like, maybe I could do this. The intro of the book is called, I wonder if I could, that was what it was. And so for me as a, as a, and again, with my general work, it's helping people. And myself even try these things in the first place and working through this, the concepts of fear and success and failure. What is failure really to me? It's not even trying that sounds cliche, but it's true. So people who show up at the start line of my race, they've already done.

Sid (32:36.091)
they're done. They've already killed it. Period. I don't care if they only make it to Mount 10. They try. And they're and they've trained all the way up and they have fear and they got out of their cars in the morning probably only slept two hours at the night before because it's you're anxious and anxiety. All by choice. Nobody has to do anything. We don't even have to get up to get food. We can have it delivered to our door. These are choices that we make in our lives to test ourselves and to make our lives better to see if we're still alive. It's the feeling of alive rather than being alive. And that's what I

as a, you know, my bachelor's degrees in philosophy. So this very much later on in my years now is always informing kind of what I do with my books and my practices, like, what are the bigger questions here? And when you put your ass on the line, you have to ask the big questions. You're on a trail at mile 22 by yourself. That's the stuff you can't distract yourself with a Netflix show at that point, you know, and so what it taught me was to not try to, to not try to distract from the fear, because you can't

tyson (33:26.519)
Yeah.

Sid (33:35.499)
not in that physical pain. To just move with it, to move through it to acknowledge it's there. Why am I afraid? Ask those questions and just continue on and just go to go like I'm there was times this race where I was so miserable and I just would look up and go, I'm just gonna take a minute to appreciate the trees. Appreciate the lake. Because this is hell. It's gonna be over either way. I'm gonna have a burrito probably in three hours. It's like on a beer, you know, it's like, it's like, I'm just gonna have to kind of exist coexist with this fear. Because if we don't

We lose that's failure. I was a musician. Like I told you, I don't particularly enjoy getting on stage. I have a little bit of stage fright. There I'd be off stage feeling afraid and walk on stage instead of that. And that's, and I'm sure as a comedian, you have probably grap, I don't know how comfortable you are, but I'm sure you grapple with some level of holy crap. What am I doing? And you do it anyways. And that's being happy and healthy. That's

That's the bigger questions that we have to grapple with. So that's why I wanted to capture in that chapter. It's that, it's like getting to that stuff. It's too easy to not do anything anymore. So we have to make a conscious effort to do stuff.

tyson (34:31.296)
Yeah. Man.

tyson (34:36.23)
Yeah, beautifully said, beautiful. Yeah, it's definitely, I was thinking of standup comedy as you were speaking actually, because I said to my wife the other day that I feel like standup comedy is the one experience since I finished competitive running, where the adrenaline that kicks in before you're about to go on stage feels as though the gun's about to fire for 1,500 meters. You've got a slight shake, you're nervous, you're a little bit jittery.

Sid (34:56.324)
I love it.

tyson (35:00.414)
I was standing in the, yeah, I was standing, funny to say it, I stand there with the biggest glass of water, I was in the green room, so as I said, I was over in Perth the other day at a place called the Comedy Lounge. It's a really well respected room, and they put on an amazing show. It seats near 200 people in a tiny little cramped in room, and you go out there and it is just electric. People are paid to go and laugh, and you can hear the MC before you, and I was standing in the green room the other day, and I had this exact conversation, I was standing there.

Sid (35:00.459)
Now let's try.

tyson (35:29.63)
I was, before I know, usually I have a good night when I get the little shakes. Like I get these little jitters in my hands. I feel a bit cold, I feel a bit shivery, I feel very nervous. But I think it's just because my perception is incredibly heightened. And ironically, when I feel the most scared, a lot of the time is when I feel as though I'm the most on. It's when I'm the best at dealing with hecklers. It's when I'm the best at responding to the moment because like all of the senses have just been heightened. But I say all of that.

Sid (35:52.493)
Oh.

Sid (35:55.919)
That's right.

tyson (35:57.686)
to emphasize your point that there is a very real feeling as you're standing in the back of the room that it would be nice not to have to do this. And I hope I don't pass out on stage and you sort of get a little bit short of breath, but then you get out there and you do it. And as you say, it doesn't matter necessarily, obviously we wanna go out and kill, you wanna go out and do really well. But as you say, if you've moved through that fear to start that race or to get on stage and to do your best and your bomb or your flop or whatever it is that happens.

there's something that can still be taken away from that. And I love the idea of moving through fear because to your point, it's very easy not to do hard things anymore. We're in a very comfortable world where foods delivered to our door, the TV, we've got the... Man, like this is another podcast. There's endless options of ways to find yourself comfortable. So perhaps it's no surprise that books like Do Hard Things are so well received by so many people because I think there's something within all of us where it's like, are we...

We don't actually move through that much fear in a lot of respects. It's something that's almost a little foreign to a lot of people now.

Sid (37:03.167)
Oh yeah, I mean, look at how we're designed. We are designed as animals. We used to be challenged. And most of us, now by the way, there's tons of people right now in the world that are being challenged. So part of this is like where you and I are potentially in countries that we live in that are relatively safe and things like that. And so it's this thing of like, putting yourself out there sometimes. If you don't...

tyson (37:17.719)
That's all.

Sid (37:28.675)
get on stage, you don't have the experience of learning from a bomb, but also have the experience in general of also doing great and also being a being a example for your child, you know, of like, this is what I my kids are very clear, by the way, that I'm scared. Can you swear on this podcast? Okay, yeah, so scared. I have to say it because it's appropriate, but scared shitless. I always verbalize that to them. I never ever I would fail as a father if they thought my dad was never afraid of anything. He just fearless friend of mine goes, you're fearless. I go fearless.

tyson (37:44.503)
Man, please.

Sid (37:57.515)
I'm the opposite of fearless. I'm terrified of most things that I do. I'm terrified about putting a book out. Because I'm terrified about putting an album out. Because there's, you know, I'm gonna hear about it, somebody is going to be a dick about it. Right. And so now I'm just gonna swear all the time. Anyways, and so and so, but yeah, and so it's like, but what's the trade off? And isn't it an interesting species that we are that you could be coexisting simultaneously with fear and going, I don't want to do this at all and doing it at the same time.

tyson (38:13.102)
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Sid (38:25.943)
It's very human psychology. And I think that I talked about the book, it's a sort of the prefrontal cortex versus the lizard brain limbic thing, the limbic things like this survival, and everything in our bodies physically, the shaking of the hands is telling us, this is danger. And at the same time, we know it's not danger. We know it's not actually dangerous. I know that the ultra marathon, yeah, okay, I could fall off the thing. But in general, I can stop. I can stop anytime. I'm not gonna I'm not the kind of guy who is if I'm my legs broken, I'm gonna have to finish I would stop.

So I know that, but there's still fear about it. There's still fear of failure. There's still fear. Oh no, my book's going to be a lie. And I'm going to, people are going to look to me and go, he couldn't do it. And all this crazy, all that stuff comes up. And you kind of got to just go, okay, this is coming up and you just work with it and you work through it and you learn from it and whatever. And I learned from that experience of that race.

tyson (39:14.946)
Yeah, yeah, beautifully said, man. I mean, we've got nine chapters here, potentially 10 to get through. So, and we're not gonna get through them all, especially with how much I enjoy going deep into them with you. But with that said, we'll do as much as we can with the time that we have. Second chapter, slow down.

Sid (39:30.751)
is this an interesting one. So when I swear, I'll sort of cliff nose this a little bit more because I don't want you to go on too long. This will take longer than the ultra marathon. 10 hours and 40 minutes. I mean, I'm in baby, I'm in and I know this is tomorrow for you. So we'll see how this goes. So so the to slow down. So I short story, I hired a coach the first time I did an ultra because again, totally out of my wheelhouse. The coach I hired was a guy heard on a podcast named Matt Flaherty.

tyson (39:41.194)
I mean, I'm more than happy. I'm thinking of your time. Yeah, awesome.

Sid (40:01.507)
What I liked about him is he was a lawyer and he quit to be an ultra runner. He's one of these guys who was just completely, and just turned out to be a good runner. Not these are not fancy people. I think he charged me like a hundred bucks a month. I'm not kidding. I was like, really? And it was all on Google. He was in Indiana. And I just said, I just need a little bit of it was for two months. And then I just needed to know kind of what I was doing a little bit. And first thing out of his mouth, he goes, so you're a runner. I go, you know, two, three miles pace, eight minute mile.

That's just kind of my thing eight, eight and a half. He goes, Okay, we're gonna have to slow down by about two or three minutes per mile. And I was like, No, no, I can, I can, he goes, not for 50. You can't. And there was the first time now I'd already crafted my small steps approach. I'd already written my first book, but there was something in my head about running that was like, No, I'm an eight and a half minute per mile runner. That's what I do. And he goes, not for 50 miles, you don't. So his lesson was slow down. And I mean, slow down significantly. So when I was training for my marathons the year before,

I was still in that mode and I would push through a 10 mile run, 12 mile run. And I'd come home and I'd be exhausted. I'd be sitting, I'd be laying on the couch, sometimes literally shivering. My wife would be, are you okay? And I've got, you guys need an hour and a half. I need you to kind of, I have a blanket on me. He goes slow down. So here I'm running at 12 minute, 12 and a half minute pace. You know how hard it is to be a eight and a half minute runner and then run a 12 and a half minute pace, not physically hard, physically easy, mentally hard.

And I joked about I've given some talks where I joke I'm like people would pass me and go I could run faster, you know, because there's the there's the macho bullshit, you know, all this stuff comes up, right. So I start getting really used to the 12 and a half minute 12 minute pace. Here's why. All of a sudden, I'm running 10 miles, 12 miles, 14 miles, 16 miles, I'm coming home playing with my kids all day. My mind is slowing down. I on purpose decided not to like even listen to music. I was just like, Can I just I had twins at the time, you know, I still do. And I'm like, Can I have

tyson (41:26.326)
Hahaha!

Sid (41:51.843)
Let's see what it's like to be alone, like to have time to myself. This is what we're all fighting for some time to ourselves. And so I'm running and I'm like, noticing things by because I'm not stressed. I'm not pushing myself on every training run to the point where I'm, my heart's beating too fast. And I'm exhausted. I just want it over. I'm like, I'm kind of having fun here. I'm enjoying things. I'm looking at the looking at the, the scenery. And I'm like, this is crazy. So his lesson was, it allowed my mind to adapt and my body to adapt.

I didn't get sore. My body made adaptations, muscular, skeletal adaptations that I allowed myself to do. If you push too hard, you'll get through that run, but you will stress yourself out and you can get injured and things like that. So I really made an effort. It was so cool. And the only reason I ever wore a watch after that was to make sure I was going slow enough and I'm not even joking. I would look there, I go, oops, I'm speeding up to 11, 10, nine slow down again, and it really changed the way that I, of course I took that and

tyson (42:41.366)
Yeah.

Sid (42:49.427)
Incorporated that into my small steps approach, which is take it easy. Eat nice and easy. We have the long view. This is 50 miles, you know, changing your diet isn't a 21 day thing. It's a forever thing. So let's slow down, do less today because we're doing more later on, you know, et cetera, et cetera, same mindset.

tyson (43:04.178)
my wife often laughs at me because we'll go out for a run from time to time together. And I've got the reputation, I'm the runner in the house. She'll do it from time to time to keep fit. Not a love of hers, she doesn't love it like I do, but I'm faster than her over any distance. And I'm confident of that. But we'll go for a run together. And her knowing that, we'll still go out in the first mile. She'll go back and she's like, come on, bud, what are you doing? Like, let's run together. I'm like, okay.

But how far are we running? We might do five miles, 8K or whatever. And we've been together now for 15 years. And throughout the course of 15 years, you would think she would recognise the pattern, but we still laugh because always we get to mile two. And she starts to go, I'm so unfit. I go, babe, you're not unfit. You're running at a pace which is silly. And to your point, I often say, I coach quite a lot of community level runners who are relatively new to endurance sports.

And whenever I schedule a long run for them or a run for them, I'll do long run slow. And people often say, okay, what is slow? And I feel like the best way I've been able to boil it down and to touch on your point, the mentality aspect, I say, run at a pace which feels so embarrassing to be seen running at and then slow down. And I feel as though it's, because so many people they go, I'm unfit, I'm not making progress. I go, you're running at five minute K pace.

Sid (44:17.324)
It's great. I love it.

Sid (44:24.163)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you think's gonna happen?

tyson (44:25.994)
Try running at eight minute K pace and you'll triple how far you can run. I think so much confidence comes with exactly what you said. If you can slow it down, you'll start ticking off five miles, 10 miles, 15 miles. You go, oh, I can do this, but it is amazing and such a great chapter, such a great title to dedicate a chapter to because it is so overlooked by so many athletes, even like my wife who know better.

but still fall into the trap of saying, I'll just go a little faster.

Sid (44:50.451)
Uh-huh. I did. And we, we have that in the world. Power yoga, every burn crossfit. Everything is to get faster and faster. And again, why I love ultra running. It's like slow down. If you're pushing it, you're not going to enjoy it. First of all, and second of all, you're not going to train well. You know, you will, you will pay the price.

tyson (45:03.064)
Hmm.

tyson (45:09.162)
Yeah. Versatility, talk to me about this. Being versatile throughout your running.

Sid (45:13.475)
Yeah. So this was a big one. And this is for me on a personal level, but I think it appeals to many, many people. I was very much of a must follow the training plan in a book by an author who has no idea who I am. I was no idea of my life, my schedule, my kids, my sleep pattern, my work, nothing. So I was training for, I can't remember what I was training for. Maybe the first marathon. I can't remember, but anyways, I was following a training plan out of a book. And one morning it said interval run.

tyson (45:24.183)
Hmm.

Sid (45:43.611)
So I wake up the morning, I'm exhausted, didn't sleep well. I've been drinking at that point drinking way too much coffee. It was cold outside. I was static stretching at the time having no, I don't do that anymore. And I go into training when I w I do the warmup half a mile. I do the intervals all fine. But on the way back, I rupture my Achilles tendon. Now I'd also fell about a half a mile in and most of my knees bloody, but I kept going because it said so on the training plan, that's where my brain was like, this is the day I'm supposed to do this thing cut to my

tyson (46:10.026)
Yeah.

Sid (46:12.323)
first two months with that coach. And again, I trained for another four or five months after I would know coach and never had a coach sense, but he's got me major told him I was right. I saw told him I was mentioning him. But anyways, and so he I go on this trip, I'm doing this speaking series of talks at this college in Wisconsin called Beloit. And he had the training plan mapped out for me on this Google Doc. And so I said, I don't know what to do. This is gonna be hard, but I'm gonna be in Wisconsin. He goes, Oh, just it's whatever, do what you can. I go, well, no, because I mean, he

He goes, no, you can, you can change it. I was like, no, no. He goes, no, you can, you can change it. Just don't do so much that week. Like just do whatever you can do. And I was like, that doesn't, you can't do that. You know, like in my brain. And that's when I realized we have to learn. That's why I'm a small stepper. Like my small steps approach is to help people figure out what they can take on. It is not a fixed small in the world. It's how much, what are you able, learn how to know what you're able to do.

And I've trained people to run distances and they have to take a week off and they think that everything's going to be lost because they had to take a week off. It's like, no, it won't. It might even help you to take a week off. You know, that's why we do tapers midway through training times where we take a little break. And so he changed it. And ever since then I stopped running. I never ever run from a training plan. Now not some people like the safety of it. I get it. There's no worries about that. But I've never done it.

tyson (47:27.542)
Mm-hmm.

Sid (47:33.899)
And I'm sure that I could be faster if I did it. I'm sure I could be a better runner if I did it. But again, I got other, a lot of other irons in the fire. And so for me, it's like to do an ultra run and be able to finish it like I did and literally follow no training plan at all is pretty great because I get to do all these other things and do that thing also. And so that was a big lesson for me is I know I can, I can adjust. That's why Courtney door Walter. I'll see where my legs take me. She doesn't run from a training plan. She didn't have a coach. It's best run in the world. Maybe in the history of the sport doesn't run from a training plan.

tyson (47:50.506)
Yeah.

Sid (48:02.831)
There's something got to be there. There's gotta be good.

tyson (48:03.182)
Isn't that wild? Yeah, one of my, oh sorry, I'm sorry to interrupt you. I was just gonna say, he's a good friend of mine, but also my former running coach, Adam, did it here in Australia. He's a really highly respected coach, Olympic coach. He coaches a number of top marathon runners even right now. And one thing that he said to me when I was, I first started running with him in South Australia when I was 19, at the time he was 25. Had just gone back, this is 2006 now, but even then.

there was signs that he was, he was a good coach because he kind of took me under his wing and we were trained by a former top Australian, 10,000 meter runner called Sean Crichton and Sean would write the training programs. And I had that attitude of yourself as a 19 year old kid. I was going out as I, all right, this is what Sean says. And this is what I have to do. And Adam always said, he goes, mate, your training program is written in pencil. And he goes, so that means that anything that doesn't quite fit, you can, you can erase, you can rub out, you can adjust.

Sid (48:52.108)
Oh great.

Sid (48:56.28)
Great.

tyson (48:56.646)
And to your point, I think it's so important because sometimes you wake up and you've got a head cold and it's actually counterintuitive, but that mindset of we need a progress, we need to do what's on that thing, sometimes rather than seeing his progress actually holds us back to a big degree and yeah.

Sid (49:11.267)
Yes, it's the opposite. It's the opposite. It actually can hurt you. I mean, I ruptured my Achilles tendon on that day. I couldn't run for five more weeks. So the one thing I was trying to do was run and to be a better runner and I, and I ruptured my Achilles tendon and couldn't run for four hours. Yeah. It was almost five weeks. So it's, it is, it's like, what am I doing? Why am I, you know, and so I think, I think one thing that elite athletes do better than maybe the lay people like we are, or not you, but me or whatever, whoever is they do listen to their

tyson (49:24.802)
Hmm.

Sid (49:39.003)
You know, everyone goes, listen to your body, but it's easier said than done. You know, and I, and, you know, and this sort of detachment, when we're looking at a training plan, we're all like a diet. It's the same, same idea. This is why I get people off diets. I'm like, don't ever do follow diet again. Is because you're all of a sudden you're detaching yourself out of the picture. You're saying I have to do this thing on a page and you're not taking into account. What are you able to do? What are your actual goals? If I knew what my actual goal was, which was to run, I wouldn't have run that day.

tyson (49:41.794)
He for sure.

Sid (50:08.031)
I wouldn't have gone out on an interval run. I probably would have taken a very light couple mile run because I was exhausted and cold and not feeling good and not sleeping well. And I would have been able to ask the questions of why I'm not sleeping well, but instead I was distracted by the stupid chart. And again, I'm not talking, I don't talk to about people who are trying to set PRs. This is for people who are just trying to do it, have an experience like that. And I think those things can be real counterproductive.

tyson (50:20.632)
Mm.

tyson (50:31.274)
Yeah, this flows on beautifully into your next chapter, I think, because the next chapter is called Pay Attention in Everything, and I think to launch from what you've just spoken about, it actually does involve us having to pay attention to how we feel and what it is that we're thinking and how have we been sleeping and things like that. But walk us through the idea here, because I like this, just to sort of introduce the topic back to you, the idea of paying attention in everything. I've heard you speak about this when you're actually out there on a run. Like, that makes sense. You're slowing down enough to actually be able to look around and enjoy what you're seeing.

but also to what we just spoke about with versatility and progress and consistency, you've got to pay attention when you're not out there on the run as well.

Sid (51:09.655)
Yeah. And also the very real, cause I paid the price on this one, but the very real reality, which is when you're on a trail, unlike a road, or even a swimming pool, you can kind of zone out. I, you know, I swim laps before you kind of know you're not, there's no, but you're on a trail and you lose and you just kind of start zoning. You'll fall. You know how I know? Cause I have like scar tissue on my left leg, my left knee that is an exact I fall the exact same way apparently, but because you'll fall.

And you, you know, your mind will wander, but you come right back and it's, you know, we try to met, everyone wants to meditate while there is no better meditation than being on a trail or being in a cold tub and I do cold therapy. But I've got to tell you when I'm in a cold tub, 39 degrees, I'm present. And nature sort of makes you go, you got to it's at that point. It's like a survival wild animals can't sit in meditate in the wild. They'll get killed.

tyson (51:54.626)
Yeah.

Sid (52:03.299)
So we have this kind of return. It has to be conscious and intentional for, because we don't have to, like you said, to, but it is, it makes you healthier and happier. It really, really does. And so that what ultra running taught me was the value of putting myself in situations where in a way I'm, I call it wild attention, like I said in the book, but it's almost forced attention. Like it doesn't take an effort to meditate when you're on a trail. Cause you, cause you have biofeedback. If you zone out and chatter and that you give into the chatter in your brain, you're down in the trail.

tyson (52:25.223)
Mm.

Sid (52:32.375)
And over time you learn to appreciate and to look at and then all of a sudden in your life, you're more aware and more present. It just becomes this habit of like, you're kind of looking at things in ways that you didn't, you appreciate the time you're with your family more than at least I did. And that's the cell in the book is, is to kind of train your brain to be more attentive and seeing how that relates to your everyday life and your job and your family and everything else.

tyson (52:47.726)
for sure.

tyson (52:54.782)
Yeah, it's so funny as we talk about this now, I can see how well the chapters are laid out because everything just flows into the next chapter. I mean, it's no coincidence that with what you're just speaking about there with the cold exposure and the focus on the trail that we move into a chapter of breath. And this is one that when we spoke last week, I had no idea about how deep you were in the breathwork world and Oxygen Advantage breath coach, two podcasts that I've absolutely loved on here and have been really well received, Patrick McCowen, the Oxygen Advantage.

Sid (53:15.483)
huge.

Sid (53:22.269)
Oh, nice. Yeah.

tyson (53:23.706)
incredible conversation I had with him about 18 months ago. I still sleep with my mouth taped, thanks partly. Yeah, we share the same bedtime conversations, I think. And the other one was James Nester, who was my first introduction into that. Well, after Wim Hof, I sort of went down a bit of a rabbit hole, yeah. Went down a rabbit hole, found James Nester, reached out to him after I heard him on Joe Rogan, because I was so mind blown.

Sid (53:25.641)
Oh man, yeah.

So do I. My kids think I'm absolutely nuts. And my wife does it too. I just, good night. I go, good night. I'm just, I got the tape.

Sid (53:38.367)
Yeah.

Oh, great.

Sid (53:44.652)
Same thing.

tyson (53:52.698)
And the conversation with him just about his book, it's just, it seems like an untapped world of advantage to steal the title of Patrick's book. Talk to me a little bit about the breath though.

Sid (54:01.723)
Correct. Yeah.

Yeah, so I had like you stumbled upon the Wim Hof thing. I don't even remember how and I did his 10 week course. And I've practiced it every day since almost six years now. Over six years. July was six years. So yeah, and cold and rounds of the Wim Hof. Now, when I and I loved it. And I think it's helped my running and things like that, at least the breath has. And I dig the cold therapy. You know, there's a lot of it's the sciences emerging on it. I'll just say that there's some promising things looking but for me having done it every day for six years, there's a

tyson (54:15.522)
Wow.

Sid (54:34.051)
there's that little mini challenge of I'm dreading this and I want to do it at the same time. So for me, that's kind of what I get in the tub of every day. Don't want to do this. It's dreadful afterwards. Glad I did it. And I just kind of repeat that, you know, so it gets me to sort of in that place anyways, when I, when I, I didn't want to train as a Wim Hof instructor because the Wim Hof method, if you've ever seen it or done it, you do it, but you've it's okay. So, but you know what it is. It's

tyson (54:58.18)
I do it inconsistently, for sure.

Sid (55:03.115)
Okay, so it's that now oxygen advantage, as I was researching and part of in James Nestor's book, because Patrick McCuinn is in that book. And that's who I trained under. Because that was interesting to me, because it was geared toward a functional way of breathing all the time. Wim Hof is not it's an exercise you do, but you don't walk around going, you know, it's Yeah. So when I went to actually say like, how is this going to apply to both my running? And my coaching? It was oxygen advantage all the way. And and

tyson (55:19.508)
Yes.

Sid (55:31.635)
And again, it ties into the slow down thing. So one of the markers that I love what you said about the coach who was like, go as slow as whatever, and then even slower. So for me, my marker is if I'm going slow enough, and this is not, I'm not joking, this is how I think now, and this has changed. I don't think, am I going fast enough? I go, am I going slow enough here? If I can breathe through my nose in and out and, and lightly.

And that's my thing. And I trained oxygen advantage I do I must do an hour and a half of breath work every day and I don't take a break to do it. It's incorporated in my life. I'm working on a laptop, I might do a retention, and just kind of get that in there on my way into my car on my way into the drive. I'm doing breath work in the car on the way down, not Wim Hof, but the oxygen advantage method. And just seeing how that affected my endurance, how it affected my awareness, how it affected my, my stress on the trail. So even this race few days ago,

I would slow down often. And it's like, I could feel myself going to my mouth. Now, if you're on a hill going up, you transition to your mouth. That's appropriate. But the few flats I had, but mostly those downhills, I'd slow down until I could breathe in and out through my nose. And again, I totally credit that with my ability to finish that race because I was not at that point, I was hurting so bad. I was like, I cannot push this too much. If I can't breathe through my nose, I'm going too fast. And I could see that kind of unfolding like that. So that was really a huge thing. And again, translates it back into my life. Every lesson in that book is.

tyson (56:37.365)
Mm.

Sid (56:50.995)
what how that translated into how I live my life and it really ultra running really did that for me in a way that nothing else has ever done.

tyson (56:58.302)
Yeah, that was really interesting actually. 2015 was when I first heard of Wim Hof and 2015 was when I went to Nepal, which I've mentioned to you a couple of times. And we went up to about 6,100 meters of altitude. Mount Lobeche was that mountain. Over the course of a couple of weeks, Island Peak was another one. I got food poisoning before that one, so I didn't get to the top of that unfortunately. But I say that to say, the bloke that I was climbing with, who I mentioned before, Kevin, who had climbed Everest three times, twice at the stage.

Sid (57:11.715)
Well.

Sid (57:18.569)
Bye.

tyson (57:28.862)
He was impressed by the fact that I hadn't done much mountain work before but that the altitude wasn't affecting me I didn't suffer altitude sickness and I credit part of that I don't know how much this actually like whether I was lucky and might have been a genetic thing or I Was consciously throughout the day. I was I was not talking too much But I was constantly especially on the up hills really focusing on I was just doing Wim Hof at the time So really focused breath work Without the holds. Yeah without the holds

Sid (57:33.771)
Interesting.

Sid (57:51.307)
Yep. Without the holds. Yeah, that's right. Yep. Exactly.

tyson (57:56.606)
Yep. And, uh, it was amazing. Like I was probably doing that over the course of a couple of hours, maybe, maybe five or six times just whenever I felt a little fatigued. And yeah, I wondered, I don't know for sure. I wondered how much of an impact that had because at the time where we climbed with a lady called Leslie from Canada, far more experienced climber than me. She hit a couple of points where. Yeah. The altitude was getting her and she was sort of going to us like, how are you okay? And I was like, maybe it's this, but I'm not a hundred percent sure. Yeah.

Sid (58:23.103)
I think it is. I gotta tell you, I really do because I you know, there's, in fact, on this last race, there was a couple times on this steep uphill, sometimes there was like a two, I think there's two times where there's 1000 foot climb, period, like you're just going up, there's just I'm just like, good. So I would stop and I would do the breathing. And that's when people would a lot of time pass me go, dude, are you okay? I'd be like, I'm fine, because it looks like you're dying. But you're I'm just kind of sitting there going. You know, it looks like I'm hyperventilating. And technically I am but it's not

tyson (58:40.422)
Yeah sure, I've had that experience.

tyson (58:47.414)
Yeah.

Sid (58:50.307)
stress related, it's just kind of rejuvenating. And I would do 10 or 15 of those breaths and then continue that and I would get this resurgence of energy and I just continue to do that I am I am a believer. I gotta tell you, like I will look at Wim Hoff's done. You know, he's run marathons in the cold. He's running in the super hot guys not particularly well trained, I would imagine, you know, and, and he's kind of killing it. So it's I think there's something to that breath. There's no doubt about it.

tyson (58:51.235)
Mm-hmm.

tyson (59:01.29)
Sure

tyson (59:11.382)
Yeah.

For sure, always be training.

Sid (59:17.279)
Yeah. So this is, this is again, this is how I, again, back to my kind of coaching, but, um, it's a mindset like anything else. So I'm never not in training in the sense of. I always eat well. Most of the time I exercise most of the time I'm on, I take attention to my sleep most of the time. Now I always say most of the time I call it Mott in what I, most of the time, because you try to pull that off a hundred percent of times you, that can be stress inducing.

People who try to eat a hundred percent healthy all the time, you wouldn't leave your house. So it's, oh, but it's that mindset. It's like, am I always taking care of myself? Most of the time. And by the way, eating junk food is to me, self care also, like we need to blow off some steam, you know, taking a day off from running is self care. I mean, if you try to run every day that you've seen people like that, that's the type a thing. So the always being training was a, establishing a very strong baseline of health and happiness and stress management.

tyson (01:00:00.258)
sure.

Yeah.

Sid (01:00:14.027)
And allowing that to not be this thing where okay, now I have to train from zero to 60 to do an ultra man. It's like, no, I'm already at like 30. And I just need to go to 40, you know, just a little bit more do the ultra. If I told you I'm this is not a joke. And I please you're whoever's listening to this. This is not a recommendation. The most I ran any given week leading up to the race I just did. I think I did a 15 mile week one time. And that's not a joke. So yeah, but I also do strength training.

tyson (01:00:42.433)
Yeah. Yep.

Sid (01:00:43.927)
I do the Wim Hof breathing every day. I do cold therapy. I do the oxygen advantage training while I'm running, but a 15 mile week. Now, if you look at most training plans, you're 50 to 70 miles a week period. I run two or three miles four days a week, and maybe I do five miles on the weekends. I'm not kidding. I showed up to that starting line like on paper, super under trained.

tyson (01:01:01.158)
Oh, Sid, I've got to tell you, just so in case you're hearing a bit of background noise, my wife and kids have just got home. So you've had a guest intruder of the cat. There's a very big chance I'm gonna have a guest intruder of my son. So I'm sorry to you and everyone listening, but I wanted to give you a heads up in case we're just rudely interrupted by a three-year-old who could not care less about my podcast. Man, with that said, I'm sorry to throw that at you. I'd just much rather give you a heads up than him just interrupt us.

Sid (01:01:08.654)
Okay.

No worries. No, I love it. I love it.

Sid (01:01:18.415)
That's okay. Yeah. No, no, no worries. No worries. Yeah.

Sid (01:01:29.131)
Yeah, I love it.

tyson (01:01:31.171)
It makes a lot of sense. Like there's so many factors that go into it. As you say, like it's not necessarily a recommended training approach, but the idea of just constantly be training, like always be doing the small things is for sure.

Sid (01:01:41.387)
And in multiple different areas, you know, how you treat yourself in general, how you sleep, how you eat, how you exercise and run, of course, but people sort of go like I'm training for an ultra, I'm just put all my eggs in the running basket. And I think as a normal person runner, not trying to win races, paying attention to multiple areas of our lives, there's the pay attention thing, there's a slowing down thing, all those things are linked. Yeah.

tyson (01:02:00.578)
Yeah, yeah. We touched on this one briefly very earlier, very briefly earlier I should say, to see that we're all in it together.

Sid (01:02:10.091)
Yeah. So this one is, means a lot to me because this was, I think why people come across crying in the race, um, this, this is where human beings become human beings and not political parties and colors and religions. And you get, you, you tear yourself down. And I don't mean in a negative way, you put yourself out there and you become raw. All of a sudden the person next to you, you couldn't give a flying crap what they believe politically. You know, you're in it together. You would help them.

tyson (01:02:31.628)
Yes.

tyson (01:02:36.859)
Yeah.

Sid (01:02:39.415)
in no, no problem at all. And they're more than happy to help you. And this is the kind of stuff I think we're missing. Social media certainly is doing a huge disservice to us because we do not get deeper than the surface and we it's all vitriol and what I call keyboard bravado. And so. Lulz running, being on trails with a P with other people, it, I think it does make you finish and go, there's more important things than what we're being sold and clickbait world, you know? And so this was something again, that, that it taught me to kind of look at people in a different way.

than maybe previously.

tyson (01:03:10.934)
Yeah, that's a really good point. It's funny how a little bit of physical discomfort and a little bit of comradery can do that when all of a sudden you just see past, yeah, whether they got a blue shirt on or a red shirt on, you just go, oh, you're out here trying to chase the same thing as me. And to close out the book, man, it's a, test our metal.

Sid (01:03:16.771)
Yeah, tear away all the crap, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sid (01:03:28.995)
Right. So, you know, I think again, what's missing is that we aren't, again, keyboard bravado is a perfect example. It's too easy. Everything's a little too easy. Technology is built to make things easier. And I use technology, but I don't think as in general that it's doing us a disservice, it's softening us and it's weakening us. It's making us more sensitive. It's making us more angry. And to me, you know, putting yourself out there, sometimes you stepping on stage, doing something that.

I don't have to run ultra marathons. You know, this isn't it doesn't there's no real practical reason. People go you're crazy. I go Okay, well, I guess but I you know, it's like it's tech. People are afraid to challenge themselves. And I you know, and an ultra marathon is big, I get it's big. But people can do it. And when you do that, even if you don't finish the race, you test your metal, you go Can I do this again, it comes to feeling alive versus being alive. Can I feel this thing? Can I feel what it's like to be alive in that like?

connection level connection to others, connection to ourselves, connection to nature, being there, present and aware. And so I think you know, that's why I left that to the very end. It's like, put your ass on the line once in a while, you don't even have to tell anybody about it. Just do it just to see what that's like. Are you still here? You know, are you still here? Are you just distracting yourself at every at every second of the day?

tyson (01:04:43.402)
Yeah, that's so.

That's so good, that's so good, man. I like it because it's one of those, it's not like a book you just read through and you go, oh, I get the idea. It's one of those ones that despite the fact that I've been in the sport now for 23 years, I can open this book to a random chapter and remind myself, Tice, are you doing this? Tice, are you doing that? It serves as a constant reminder and that's why I like the idea of actually just going through it with you because it doesn't necessarily give away the secrets of the book. It introduces you to the topic and.

What I like about it is I know it's going to be a resource where I open it. I do a number of books, especially with Ryan Holliday's and just go, okay, what's he saying today? What's this point? What do I need to be reminded of? I heard something about that, which is awesome. But I know it's still a couple of months until it's actually released into the world, isn't it? February?

Sid (01:05:23.771)
Cool. Yeah.

Sid (01:05:37.839)
February 6th is the date, yeah. And it's international, so people can, you know, whatever countries they wanted to get it in and stuff like that, so.

tyson (01:05:39.874)
February 6th.

tyson (01:05:43.842)
Beautiful, well maybe a little closer to the time we'll get you back on there and speak about how it's all going, how the running world's going and whatever else might come up. But man, I can say this now, as it always is, absolute pleasure to have a chat to you. I really enjoyed the last one, I really enjoyed this one. Sorry I was a little thrown out there when I heard the family get inside. I didn't realize I was gonna be, you get it.

Sid (01:05:47.152)
Cool.

Sid (01:05:55.971)
I know. You too.

Sid (01:06:03.948)
That's all right. I got three kids, man. So it was the least affecting thing. I was like, all right, I got a cat running through my table. So yeah.

tyson (01:06:09.714)
You get it. Okay. So that apologies for any single people out there who used to judge people like me like I did Yeah, for sure, but man, hey best of luck with it. I genuinely really enjoy Yeah, what it is you have to say what the book's about i'm excited for it And I know the audience who listened to this podcast will really appreciate it So mate consider this one of many. Thanks for coming. Thanks for coming on

Sid (01:06:14.219)
Yeah, me too.

Sid (01:06:30.991)
Thanks for having me on. You're great. I'm so, this is like how cool, see that where technology is the best, like you're in Australia, I'm here, and it's, I just have totally enjoyed meeting you. It's really cool. And I appreciate what you do.

tyson (01:06:35.246)
for sure.

tyson (01:06:40.987)
Thanks a lot. We'll see you later. See everybody I'll cut that off there man. Hey, um, dude. That was that was awesome. That was

Sid (01:06:45.103)
Cool. That was fun.