Welcome to Speak The Truth, a podcast devoted to giving biblical truth for educating, equipping, and encouraging the individual in local church and counseling and discipleship. Hello. Hello. Hello. We are doing another episode of Speak The Truth, and I'm excited about this podcast because, again, we have another person that we have not had on the podcast yet, but I'm excited for this episode.

We've been continuing our conversations along the lines of trauma. And with that, we are gonna focus, we're gonna take a little detour a little bit, but we're gonna focus on codependency today. And to help me do that, I've got Chris Minott with me. Chris, how we doing?

Chris Great. It's so great to be here. Thank you.

Yes, I'm excited that you are with us. And Chris, before we jump into just understanding and breaking free from codependency, could you just share a little bit about your context of ministry, Whatever else you wanna share.

Okay. I am serving as the director of soul care and biblical counseling at Summit Church in Fort Myers, Florida. My husband is the care pastor there and he also does men's ministry. We do marriage ministry together. We've been married thirty nine years.

Many years?

Thirty nine.

Thirty nine years.

Yes, it's gone too fast. It's just, yeah, it's fun. But we've been doing ministry together to both share a passion for discipleship and caring of souls. So it's been really neat. So we have two daughters who are married, four grandchildren, one more on the way.

So we love that. But I serve at my church both to oversee a counseling ministry. We have a biblical counseling ministry. We train, we're an ABC training center. And then we also work with Soul Care Consulting.

They have consulted us and equipped us to help every member in the church to be equipped to do every member care. Ministry one to another, all the one another's, equipping the saints to do the ministry, equipping ministry leaders, staff, small group leaders, and all the way down to the grassroots level. We're excited that we're building that out as a result of our biblical counseling trickling down. Pastors wanted us to teach. You guys do in biblical counseling, we see so much transformation of souls, of marriages, of lives.

Can you teach the church to apply the gospel in those areas? And so we're super excited to do all of that.

That is exciting. Couple of things I just want to highlight from what you were sharing in just your life and ministry is that it is a very sweet thing to enjoy that with your spouse, isn't it?

Yes.

Yeah, we're we're a little bit of an anomaly. We're both are equally active in ministry. That's really cool. And then secondly, five grandchildren? Well You're expecting the fifth.

Right. Four. The tiny Turley two is in the making. That's what we're calling the little one that's on the

way. It's lot of Ts.

Yeah. Last name is Turley. My son-in-law is one of our worship pastors. So our kids are local. They're in our church at a different location at one of our other campuses.

And what a blessing to have family in the same church. That's so we're also Sean and I are grandparents, which is an amazing blessing. Very cool. We hear all the time that we're too young to be grandparents. I know, I didn't know you were.

Yeah, but it is a reality. And then also lastly, and then we'll jump into codependency here is just you mentioned soul care consulting inside. At this point, that podcast with Lee has been if you're hearing this podcast, you've already heard that podcast, so I would encourage you to go back and listen to it. So what Chris is talking about is really a paradigm shift for the local church and equipping the saints for the work of ministry. And so she's a testament to what Lee and I were talking about in that episode.

So thank you for sharing that, Chris. And so, Chris, as we focus on just codependency, we've we've done another podcast on codependency actually with Beth Clays. But what I really like the detail, like the podcast that we did was like a fifteen minute piece. It wasn't a lot, but what you have is pretty significant. And I like you, how you've established the, not just the history, the culture, how in just the progression of this idea of codependency, how it's used in culture, and then really what it looks like biblically.

So we just want to move through how you basically outlined this. And so could you just start walking through the origin of codependency and then like really defining codependency as it relates to the culture and then getting into the biblical reality of codependency.

Yes. And it's significant for me because one of the reasons I became a biblical counselor is I have struggled with codependency myself. I came from a home where there was abuse and so my mom was very codependent. I, there were, we people have reasons why we have learned behaviors, but it doesn't, it could be very serious, like abuse, addictions, but it could be everyday life stuff. So we'll talk about that, how it's on the spectrum across.

But the origin of codependency was in the late 70s. And it was where the one family member or someone in a relationship was dealing with an addiction, a substance abuse type of addiction. And the other person was reacting and trying to manage their life based on all that was going wrong in the relationship. But what ended up happening is even if the addict had gotten free from the addiction, is doing well, the codependent, if you will, that that person was becoming codependent continued behaviors trying to fix, find ways to fix, rescue and ultimately finding identity. And so that's where the term originally started.

And in our culture, it's still people who are overly responsible or overly reliant looking for their identity, finding identity and purpose. How can I help other people control is a big part? Like feel like I feel out of control, so I need to control others. And that identity is tied up to just adjusting and trying and focusing on other people. So that's where biblically speaking, what we're realizing is you're actually, I love Ed Welch's book, When People Are Big and God Is Small.

Great book.

That says so much, but that whole book goes to the fear of man versus the fear of God. And we're looking to people instead of trusting God, individuals are looking to someone or someone else to do something that only God can do. And that was God was meant to do, which was to perfectly love us.

To

perfectly accept us and encourage us and give us purpose. So when we flip that, the codependency is a form of relational idolatry. We're putting people in the place of God. So there's always that relational idolatry and we're displacing Jesus for another person. What I like to tell people that come in, typically they're not coming in saying, Hey, I'm codependent, can you

help me?

They're coming in for other situations, relationships. I do a lot of marriage counseling. They're feeling a fear and anxiety. Anxiety is tied with it because we know with anxiety, we're trying to control something we weren't meant to control. We can't control it.

Of course, we're gonna be anxious. But in that we see there, I say, you know what, you're a very caring person and God did call us to care. And he called us to all the one another's, bear one another's burdens, love one another, forgive one another, overlook an offense, deny self, turn the other cheek. So I think for Christians, we become a little confused about how do we apply that in a way that Jesus applied it? How do we love God first, then our neighbor and ourself?

So the key is being the two greatest commandments redefining biblically what love is, because people are confused about what am I supposed to do? How much do I bear? What does love look like? So I'd like to ask them some questions like, so if you're doing all of this, where's the fruit in your life and in their life? You keep trying and trying, you're getting burnt out.

Sometimes you feel resentful because the other person doesn't appreciate, but are they getting any better? Is there biblical fruit in both of your lives? And so we start looking at what is motivating the person, right? So I think about, if we look at some of the things that scripture says, and we try to reorient them in a more biblical interpretation or view of what it's saying. Look at Paul in one Corinthians nine, he talks about how he reaches all the different people.

To the Jew, I became all things. And he says, I became all things to all men in order that I might save some for the sake of the gospel. So motive is a big, why are we doing what we're doing? So for many of us, some of the people pleasing, and I like to define, and I'll give you a couple of descriptions of some of them, but the people pleaser is trying to make people happy. So you're maybe becoming a chameleon.

What does that person want? So right now my focus isn't on the Lord, it's on this person and making them happy. Why? So they like me, so they're not upset or peace at any price. But that's peace faking, isn't it?

Yeah. It's not peacemaking, it's peace faking. It's avoiding loving in truth the way Jesus And guess what? Where's the focus? Yeah.

Is it on the Lord or the other? No, it's on me wanting to be liked, wanting to be accepted, avoid the pain of conflict rather than pressing into the Lord, loving that other person by speaking the truth and love, by being honest or saying, let's work this out. That avoidance is not really love. But that chameleon of kind of losing your own identity and just adapting to everyone else rather than the Lord is not the same as what Paul was talking about. He said, become all things to all men in order that I might save some for the sake of the gospel.

His goal was, I'm looking to the Lord, I'm trusting Christ, and I'm carrying out the mission of God. So we're trying to help people learn how to do that and reorient. So we do wanna go to the motivation of the heart. Before I go there though, I wanna give you a couple more examples of what it might look like. So we have the pleaser.

The caretaker is not a caregiver who we are called to care. So it's not the caregiver who is helping someone who really needs help, who's incapacitated and is doing what they can, but they can't do it on their own. The caretaker tries to do for others what they could and should do for themselves. And that's one of the key things when we're trying to determine how much do I help another person, because when does burden bearing glorify God? And when does it become enabling, which isn't glorifying God?

Is one of the questions is, can that person do what God is asking them to do? Or am I over anticipating that what their needs are? Why? Again, for selfish motive? I feel like I can help that my identity is coming from helping or finding a problem that I can control.

Or the rescuer is the person, courageous, not the courageous person who rescues someone who's truly in need. Rescue, thank goodness for people who are courageous and do that type of work, or somebody who you were supposed to defend the weak and help and step in and not just watch evil and let it go. That's not what we're talking about. The rescuers enable rather than confront problems that others create, they cover for others glaring mistakes. For an example, a rescuer will work an extra job rather than confront a family member who consistently wastes money on drugs, gambling, or anything else, doesn't have to even be an addiction, rather than paying bills.

They're not doing their part or doing homework for an intelligent, but unmotivated teenager in the long run. Generation is the helicopter parent generation, not good. We have a lot of kids who are having a hard time adulting because we didn't allow them to suffer the consequences of not being responsible. We didn't encourage them. I will say my kids are doing great.

They're both following the Lord. They're productive. But as a generation, we were over correcting thinking, we didn't get enough attention as kids. Now you're over correcting and you're passing right by the gospel centered thinking of equipping your child or others pointing them to Jesus. Let's all look at Jesus and see his example so that we can trust the Lord.

So those are some of the others. Finally, the helpless victim, believe it or not, the person who's always wanting attention by getting you to feel sorry, you always feel drained when you're around them. They're trying to control through weakness, but they're still not looking to the Lord. They're looking to other people for their attention, their validation, their identity. And I had Rick Thomas as a biblical counselor that came years ago and spoke with our team.

And he said, sometimes I say to a counselor, do you want my attention or you want my care? If you just want my attention, I'm here to give you care to help you with gospel care, help you to grow in the Lord. But if you're just looking for attention and you're not interested in growing, I'm probably not the guy. I hope you would want that. But if you're not, then I have people who really care.

It's pretty direct. It It's good. Yeah.

But the distinction between do you really want to grow? So those are some of the

ways- Talk about prompting a motive.

Yeah. And it also helps with the counselor to determine, love you and when you're ready. We never just kick someone out ever. It's always full of grace. Say, listen, this is what we're here for you to do to help you grow in the Lord, to know him more intimately, to apply the scripture, to do what we're called to do as disciples of Christ.

And we're here when you're ready. Let us know when you're ready for that, because that's what we're here for. And that's what we really want for you. So it's a gracious determination, but then they get to choose if that's what they want.

Jeff Yeah, no, that's really good. And these are a lot of good examples of what codependency looks like different manifestations of codependency, and then really being able to look at it biblically. So I would definitely encourage those maybe counselors out there who are seeing this level of codependency and just drawing them back to the Lord and helping our counselors identify this heart is huge. So I appreciate the work you've done with being able to just make those distinctions because there are varying manifestations and it's certainly very helpful to do that. And then it's kind of like moving from that when it comes to codependency, it's the whole counsel of God.

Being able to move them towards, you mentioned earlier, the two, you know, the greatest commandments, love God and love your neighbor. And then the whole counsel of God and being able to like really bring those burdens to bear and helping them move in that direction. Any thoughts on that?

Yes. I love I really love Galatians six, one through five. And is it alright if I read it

for you? Yeah, please do. The word of God very welcome on this podcast.

Okay. Verse one, brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself lest you be tempted. Verse two, bear one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ. For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself, but let each one test his own work and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor.

For each will have to bear his own load. So there's a lot here to unpack, but I'm gonna focus on just a couple of points. First of all, in verse one, what's in the context of walking by the flesh or the spirit? So if we're being spiritually minded and we see a brother in transgression, we want to gently restore. So speaking the truth in love, but with the goal of gently restoring, not just enabling, not just avoiding, but also that we keep watch on ourselves lest we be tempted.

Because when we see someone else struggling, we can be tempted to sin ourselves, whether it's being judgmental or in the case of codependency, wanting to rescue, cover, or the things that we described. Then going to verse three, we'll come back to two and five, but for three, if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. I think for the codependent myself, especially the ways that it's manifested, I'm trying to do God's job. So I'm thinking more highly of myself in the sense, instead of trusting the Lord, I'm thinking, Oh, if I just do more, if I can do this. And that's where I have to say, Lord, forgive me, help me to discern better what is mine and what is yours?

Know even when it's mine, it's you working through me. So it's not me anyway. I can't change anyone, save anyone. It's really you. I wanna be a humble vessel, but I really wanna focus on verse two and verse five, because if you see two says, Bear one another's burdens.

And then verse five says, each will bear his own load. So I really pondered that. I said, so what is How do we work that out? If God's telling us both to bear another's burden, but also bear our own load, how do we determine when where to bear the other's load or there

to bear? Yeah, what's the cutoff? Like where's just okay, I've helped you along, now you're able, you're willing.

Jacky Yes. And so I have this awesome tool that my mentor, Doctor. Stewart, the whole counsel of God, she made a diagram where there's a circle. And I'll have this, we have a diagram and I'll put it out in front of my counsel. And the one side, the left side, I have them read that first and I cover the right.

So as I said, I wanna get the whole counsel of God. Can you read for me the left side? And it says, love serves others, gives to others, bears others burdens, shields others and suffers quietly. I would say, now that's easy, not easy, but you're good with that, right? You're comfortable with that.

We're Christians, we get it. I said, okay, let's read the other side. And I've usually take one of my little booklets or my phone I cover. I said, I'm gonna open this side. I want you to read the rest of the story.

What does it say? Love allows others to serve me, give to me, bear their own loads, suffer their own consequences and love confronts. I have seen visibly halo data, non verbals of people being very uncomfortable. And then sometimes I don't know how I can do that. So what I love to do is unpack for them verse two and verse five, because verse two would be the left side where we're doing bearing one another's burdens.

And there are two different words used there. The Greek word baros in verse two is a heaviness, weight, burdensome trouble. Boulder's too heavy to carry alone. So when we look what we're doing in serving others is that they need our help. Their burden is too heavy.

A boulder is a good picture, but even if you think there's no one that could pick a boulder up by themselves. But depending on how many people you need, each person you add makes the burden that much lighter. Now together we can do it. So the distinction is that person, that load is too heavy. On the other hand, verse five, where each has to carry, that's the burden that each carries their own load is a burden or load of freight or cargo of a ship.

So the particular vessel is designed to carry that load. My husband and I, because we do a lot of soul care, we love people, we sometimes have a hard time saying no, knowing the boundary and resting, Sabbathing, spending time together. We love to go on cruises. And the first cruise we went on a couple of years ago, there were 8,000 people on that We loved it. 8,000 people.

It was like 22 tons or something. And we're cruising along The Caribbean and we're not even feeling a wave or anything. My point, isn't it amazing? I don't even understand the science in that, how that There are engineers who are brilliant. That

amount of weight can stay floating and moving Exactly. On the surface of the

But because it was designed so that load, do you see the difference? So we're designed to carry our own load. Then we should be carrying our own load before we see that person. And then we say, Hey, can I come and help you? What's really cool too is Matthew eleven thirty, Jesus said, My yoke is easy and my burden is light.

He is designed to carry it. We are to be yoked with him and then our yoke is easy and our burden is light. And then he calls the body of Christ together to say, Hey, we need a little extra help over here. So when we have Jesus at the center and we're discerning properly, what is ours to carry, it makes a big difference because otherwise we become overly responsible. And again, now I'm trying to do God's job, but I can't.

So that's gonna cause anxiety. There's fear and pride both involved there. Fear, the motive, what am I afraid of losing? And then I love the attributes of God. I always use the attributes of God.

I love the book that you guys, the ABC put together, such a great resource. Almost every counselor, I will use the attributes of God because where we are not trusting the Lord, where we're relying on ourselves is such an opportunity to say, okay, Lord, instead of trying to rescue this person, instead of trying to please them, because I don't wanna feel rejected, help me to wait on you and have courage. Help me to verse Psalm 2seven 14 says, wait for the Lord, be strong and let your heart take courage. Wait for the Lord. So Lord, help me to wait for you.

And in the waiting to see all your attributes, and then He will magnify those specific ones that He's speaking to your heart. So for yourself and for that other person is our provision. He is our protector. He is our refuge. He is everything.

It's an opportunity for us to help our counselor to see where they've put their trust in themselves and in others that it's Jesus that is everything they need. So that's where we bring the attributes of God in. I would say Clarifying Responsibility by Paul Tripp from Instruments in the Redeemer's Hands is another great one to help them clarify that what is it that God has given us that is our responsibility? We wanna faithfully obey. There are other things that are concerns and I love this.

So I'll show them, you can see the diagram in his book, but there's a smaller circle in the middle for responsibility. And as a circle on the outside concern, if I have a concern about someone I love or even something in my life, how is it gonna go? Maybe it's not yet something I can do. Maybe it's something I'll never be able to do. What is God calling me to?

Then the word entrust, E N T R U S T. In this diagram, it says those concerns we must entrust to God. So I'll say to the person, what do you think of when you hear the word entrust? E N T R U S T. Not just trust, but entrust.

Nine times out of 10, they're gonna put their hand out and like they're handing me something. I said, Exactly. You're gonna hand that over to God. You're gonna cast your care and you're not taken aback. And they always laugh because we always wanna take it back or we're holding on.

We're like, maybe I'm not gonna give it. Yes, just fully cast it. And then we know cast is actually throw it, here, God, you can have it. I don't want it. So we encourage that there are concerns that you're gonna have.

And before it becomes worry or control, entrust it. And then there's a little worksheet that we give them where they can list what are my responsibilities I must obey and not give to anyone else. Secondly, what are concerns I must entrust to God? And then what is something that I need to change?

That's really good. This is a really helpful tool. And I know in the audio, they're hearing this, they're probably wanting to see this as we're talking about it. I will put this in the show notes as far as the URL because

That'd be great.

It is up and you cite it. So it's like people can tell plus it's already been said too. Chris, thank you. This is very helpful. And then obviously getting into the root of codependency, there's a lot here to unpack.

But I think what's been really helpful is seeing the manifestations of it, how it presents itself. And then also just how do we reorient them back to the Lord? How do we move that codependency to dependency on the Lord where it belongs? Yeah, any concluding thoughts? Just as maybe those who, yes, I've got some counselors right now, and this is like a big piece of where we are in the process of getting them to really press into the Lord.

Encouragement for them?

Yes, I think that obviously we always want to hear the person's particular story and unpack where the root of the fears come from. Have compassion for where they're starting and where they're struggling. And then from there, it's always helping them to grow in the Lord. And I think one final thing I would say is using examples of Jesus in the story of Lazarus. There are so many places where if it were any one of us, we very well may have given into the cries of the people.

Jesus, how can you not come? What's gonna happen? He's gonna die this, that and the other. And Jesus was so clear on what the Father said, that for His glory and that they could believe. And yet His heart, He still wept.

So we're gonna have to We will weep over the brokenness of sin and the effect it has on us and on others, but we have to trust the Lord like Jesus did. We have to trust the Father and say, Lord, help me to discern your will by going through these things. What is love? What is burden bearing? And then help me to recognize my heart that when I'm being pulled to want to give in to people pleasing fear of man or control, then I say, Lord, give me courage.

And so Jesus did, that is such a great example while maintaining compassion and then even weeping. For me, it's like, I didn't want to see people suffer. So I'm like, Oh, I'm a counselor. I can help their suffering. But that's not the gospel.

Jesus walked perfect love, perfect truth, and he suffered quite a bit. Yep. So he's a man of sorrows. He's compassionate. So part of our life, we part of the way that we grow closer to him is to suffer.

So we so looking at Jesus' example and then how he took Peter from being, get thee behind me, Satan. You care more about the things of man than of God to wear on the day of Pentecost, he's saying, what do we do? You who crucify the Lord of glory, this is what you need to do. This Jesus of Nazareth, he's the man that you need to repent and be baptized. So that journey of he's patient with us.

He loves us. And yet in the midst of it, we wanna keep looking to him and walking with them and encouraging them in a very personal way.

Chris, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. And I'm looking forward to having you on again. Love your passion. The clips that we're gonna have of this episode is just your excitement.

It's very fun to see. Again, thank you, Chris. We appreciate it. Glad to have you on Speak The Truth. Thank you guys for listening.

We'll see you guys next time.

Thank you.