WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:41.950 --> 00:00:42.310 CJ: Boom. 00:00:42.400 --> 00:00:43.300 Now we're recording. 00:00:43.300 --> 00:00:44.140 All right. 00:00:44.500 --> 00:00:46.360 Duke: I would hate for that to happen again. 00:00:46.480 --> 00:00:47.230 CJ: Again. 00:00:51.010 --> 00:00:51.970 Duke: All right. 00:00:52.000 --> 00:00:54.790 We are live with another episode of CJ and the Duke. 00:00:54.790 --> 00:00:56.350 Corey, what are we talking about today? 00:00:57.010 --> 00:01:00.760 CJ: Man, duke, today we got a special guest with us, Philip Elliot. 00:01:00.760 --> 00:01:03.490 Philip is a HR guru. 00:01:03.640 --> 00:01:05.050 It's one of my good friends. 00:01:05.050 --> 00:01:06.400 I met him a long time ago. 00:01:06.400 --> 00:01:08.610 We were working on an, , an HR project. 00:01:08.660 --> 00:01:11.900 , it made him decide that he wanted to do more of it and made me 00:01:11.960 --> 00:01:13.760 decide to not do any more of it. 00:01:14.000 --> 00:01:16.850 Um, and so here we are. 00:01:17.505 --> 00:01:17.725 Phil: Hey. 00:01:17.730 --> 00:01:18.050 Hey. 00:01:18.905 --> 00:01:20.885 Duke: Isn't that kind of funny how it works out over time? 00:01:20.885 --> 00:01:22.925 Instead of finding skills, you find people 00:01:23.450 --> 00:01:23.960 CJ: Yes. 00:01:24.350 --> 00:01:24.770 Phil: Yes. 00:01:24.965 --> 00:01:26.765 Duke: and you're like, nah, nah, it's not for me, but I know a guy 00:01:26.990 --> 00:01:27.170 CJ: Yeah. 00:01:27.170 --> 00:01:28.070 I got a guy for that. 00:01:28.265 --> 00:01:28.685 Duke: Yeah. 00:01:28.895 --> 00:01:30.875 Alright, so Philip's our guy, our HR guy. 00:01:30.975 --> 00:01:33.825 , so Philip, why don't you tell us how you got there? 00:01:34.135 --> 00:01:37.735 , Phil: first it's an honor to be here, to just to, you know, connect with you all. 00:01:37.795 --> 00:01:42.025 Um, I've known cj, I don't know, for like six years or so. 00:01:42.865 --> 00:01:43.735 CJ: Yeah, it's been a minute, 00:01:43.885 --> 00:01:44.785 Phil: Yeah, it has been. 00:01:44.785 --> 00:01:46.945 You kind of part of my ServiceNow journey. 00:01:47.610 --> 00:01:52.020 But to answer your question, so my wife and I, we lived in Cambodia, overseas in 00:01:52.020 --> 00:01:56.310 Asia, , and we came back and I was trying to figure out a job, what I'm going to do. 00:01:56.740 --> 00:02:01.420 , and then I got connected to a recruiter who said, okay, , there's a utility 00:02:01.420 --> 00:02:02.950 company that needs somebody who has. 00:02:03.395 --> 00:02:06.165 Some sort of, , development skills, , because they had been 00:02:06.165 --> 00:02:07.575 looking for ServiceNow people. 00:02:07.695 --> 00:02:10.725 You know, this was back in the Fuji days, there wasn't that many ServiceNow 00:02:10.725 --> 00:02:14.085 developers out there, , and trying to find somebody and they couldn't 00:02:14.085 --> 00:02:15.435 find anyone with ServiceNow skills. 00:02:15.435 --> 00:02:19.035 So they were just like, Hey, anyone who has some sort of development skill 00:02:19.155 --> 00:02:21.235 and can actually communicate, , well. 00:02:22.140 --> 00:02:26.720 So I went in to interview, just talked about some web application, , projects 00:02:26.720 --> 00:02:31.370 that I worked on using my SQ l and, started joking , in the interview, , and 00:02:31.370 --> 00:02:33.560 they were like, okay, we're gonna bring you on and teach you about 00:02:33.560 --> 00:02:35.195 ServiceNow, whatever that thing is. 00:02:35.720 --> 00:02:39.380 . And I need you to , get up to speed on , what ServiceNow is. 00:02:39.770 --> 00:02:44.270 And so that night after, hearing that I got hired, , I just spent 00:02:44.270 --> 00:02:46.460 like a couple hours trying to figure out, okay, what is ServiceNow? 00:02:46.670 --> 00:02:48.530 How do I actually, what is this thing? 00:02:50.540 --> 00:02:52.730 Because I, I'm thinking, Hey, I gotta come in and actually 00:02:52.730 --> 00:02:53.990 do some work once I get there. 00:02:55.330 --> 00:02:55.540 Duke: Yeah. 00:02:55.540 --> 00:02:57.310 Why not learn how to swim on the deep end? 00:02:58.480 --> 00:02:58.750 CJ: Right. 00:02:58.750 --> 00:03:00.040 Just drop right on in there. 00:03:00.100 --> 00:03:00.280 Man. 00:03:00.280 --> 00:03:01.450 I love stories like this 00:03:01.660 --> 00:03:02.110 Phil: Yeah. 00:03:02.530 --> 00:03:03.040 Oh my goodness. 00:03:03.040 --> 00:03:07.930 Yeah, I mean, it's just like, fast forward in terms of how I got into hr. 00:03:08.090 --> 00:03:12.320 , as CJ mentioned, we were on this crazy project where, 00:03:12.480 --> 00:03:13.950 , scope creep out the wazoo. 00:03:14.370 --> 00:03:17.190 CJ was in charge of ITSM and hr. 00:03:17.220 --> 00:03:18.450 You know, the work on there. 00:03:18.920 --> 00:03:22.390 And I came around and I was just, I had a lot of different questions, , about 00:03:22.390 --> 00:03:24.220 what we're doing and what's going on. 00:03:24.580 --> 00:03:28.540 And eventually I just took over the HR side of it because there was so much stuff 00:03:28.540 --> 00:03:33.150 going on with, , the ITSM and I had never done hr, so it was another sink or swim. 00:03:33.510 --> 00:03:34.200 , and. 00:03:34.525 --> 00:03:38.815 We were dealing with just a, a real aggressive client who we, our standup 00:03:38.815 --> 00:03:42.930 meetings, which we were getting yelled at constantly in terms of, okay, we got this, 00:03:44.935 --> 00:03:46.255 but it was just trial by fire. 00:03:46.315 --> 00:03:50.265 , and then just , jumping into what HR was, and I just started enjoying it. 00:03:50.315 --> 00:03:53.635 , because just there's a people aspect to hr, that a lot of developers 00:03:53.635 --> 00:03:55.015 don't really think about much. 00:03:55.205 --> 00:03:55.895 , and so. 00:03:56.265 --> 00:03:59.025 That's how I just got into hr, and that's a lot of what I've been 00:03:59.025 --> 00:04:01.575 doing for the last, well, pretty much for the last six years. 00:04:01.575 --> 00:04:01.785 , Duke: wow. 00:04:01.785 --> 00:04:02.415 Let me get this straight. 00:04:02.415 --> 00:04:07.575 So, so it was your first rodeo on ServiceNow and also your first rodeo on HR 00:04:08.055 --> 00:04:10.845 Phil: Yeah, so prior, yeah. 00:04:10.845 --> 00:04:11.145 Well 00:04:13.575 --> 00:04:14.955 it's just, yeah, it's crazy. 00:04:14.955 --> 00:04:17.025 Yes, it, it was definitely crazy. 00:04:18.900 --> 00:04:21.330 But I like getting in there and actually trying to understand things. 00:04:21.330 --> 00:04:24.530 So I was constantly asking questions and like, okay, , so what's the 00:04:24.530 --> 00:04:25.580 next story I need to work on? 00:04:25.580 --> 00:04:27.290 Or what does, how does this connect to this? 00:04:27.340 --> 00:04:28.630 , and so what are we doing here? 00:04:28.960 --> 00:04:32.150 And since I was asking so many questions, they were like, well, I just 00:04:32.180 --> 00:04:34.075 need you to take over this, you know, 00:04:35.465 --> 00:04:36.785 CJ: That it's always the curse, ain't it? 00:04:36.915 --> 00:04:37.205 Phil: yeah. 00:04:37.355 --> 00:04:40.595 CJ: oh, oh, you, you care about this. 00:04:40.775 --> 00:04:41.510 You own this. 00:04:41.795 --> 00:04:42.755 Phil: Hey, this is yours. 00:04:43.025 --> 00:04:43.625 I was like, dang it. 00:04:46.655 --> 00:04:49.115 Needless to say, I didn't get much rest during that whole project. 00:04:49.115 --> 00:04:50.345 It was, ugh, crazy. 00:04:50.660 --> 00:04:53.540 CJ: And you forgot to mention the part where we had leadership 00:04:53.570 --> 00:04:55.280 resigning every other week 00:04:55.415 --> 00:04:56.795 Phil: dude, yo. 00:04:56.945 --> 00:04:58.680 It was like , we'd get a , new pm. 00:04:58.680 --> 00:05:00.540 He'd be excited like, yeah, we're gonna fix this. 00:05:00.540 --> 00:05:02.490 We're gonna do this like a month later. 00:05:02.490 --> 00:05:03.000 Okay, I'm done. 00:05:04.665 --> 00:05:07.815 CJ: and like I, this, this project was literally chasing 00:05:07.815 --> 00:05:09.495 people out of the company. 00:05:12.195 --> 00:05:13.215 Phil: yes it was. 00:05:13.935 --> 00:05:14.745 But at, you know what? 00:05:14.745 --> 00:05:17.685 At the end I actually became friends with, , the PM on the other side. 00:05:18.255 --> 00:05:18.885 CJ: Oh, nice. 00:05:19.785 --> 00:05:23.025 Phil: Yeah, we actually did, probably, probably, 'cause I think 00:05:23.025 --> 00:05:26.385 she thought I was very young and so she felt for me, she was like, okay, 00:05:27.075 --> 00:05:28.485 you're probably young, new to this. 00:05:29.775 --> 00:05:31.035 It's not your fault, you know? 00:05:31.395 --> 00:05:34.165 CJ: Hey, look, , anytime you can actually get through , a horrible 00:05:34.165 --> 00:05:38.035 project like that, get it actually delivered, and then actually still have 00:05:38.035 --> 00:05:39.625 friends on the other side of the table. 00:05:39.625 --> 00:05:41.095 Man, that is a success. 00:05:41.095 --> 00:05:42.295 So kudos to you for that. 00:05:42.475 --> 00:05:43.105 I bailed. 00:05:46.410 --> 00:05:47.230 Phil: Hey, you were smart. 00:05:50.545 --> 00:05:51.835 I think I just like getting punished. 00:05:51.835 --> 00:05:52.225 That's what it. 00:05:54.340 --> 00:05:55.540 Duke: So what was the hard part about it? 00:05:55.540 --> 00:05:57.670 was it people hard or technology hard? 00:05:58.130 --> 00:06:01.580 Phil: When I say technology hard, it's more in terms of being new to 00:06:01.580 --> 00:06:06.350 hr because I had done ITSM work like catalog work, request request items, 00:06:06.680 --> 00:06:12.020 and I was new to HR case management , and like , how HR functions and the 00:06:12.020 --> 00:06:14.150 actual architecture of what HR is. 00:06:14.570 --> 00:06:14.930 So. 00:06:15.110 --> 00:06:16.400 I was brand new to that. 00:06:16.400 --> 00:06:19.835 And, and you know, in ServiceNow you can do anything, , in a, in a, in essence. 00:06:20.615 --> 00:06:24.605 , and so I still had that kind of mindset and so I was like doing a lot 00:06:24.605 --> 00:06:28.355 of scripting over coding things and not realizing I could just configure. 00:06:28.625 --> 00:06:30.185 So that's from a technical perspective. 00:06:30.305 --> 00:06:34.245 And then there was a people aspect of it where, I was in a position where. 00:06:34.740 --> 00:06:36.240 They thought I knew more than I did. 00:06:37.420 --> 00:06:38.770 So that's, that's one. 00:06:38.860 --> 00:06:43.340 And because of that, the other side was very aggressive in terms of 00:06:43.340 --> 00:06:45.110 asking a lot of questions of me. 00:06:45.410 --> 00:06:49.820 And so, in terms of just their requirements of , how do HR task work? 00:06:49.820 --> 00:06:54.980 You, I wanna do, I wanna do it this way, I, I want to consider. 00:06:57.380 --> 00:07:00.650 many HR services for all these things that should just simply be tasked. 00:07:00.710 --> 00:07:03.650 Um, and I was just saying, okay, let's do it. 00:07:03.810 --> 00:07:08.460 , but not really understanding that it's because I didn't understand, because 00:07:08.460 --> 00:07:09.720 I didn't really understand them. 00:07:10.080 --> 00:07:12.180 I couldn't explain it in a way that they could understand. 00:07:12.180 --> 00:07:13.050 And then also, 00:07:13.470 --> 00:07:16.710 . From the resourcing perspective, we didn't have enough developers. 00:07:16.900 --> 00:07:21.730 , because I think there, I don't know how many, there wasn't a lot of HR 00:07:22.150 --> 00:07:26.150 developers out there, per se, who actually had the certification for this. 00:07:26.330 --> 00:07:30.200 And so we just didn't have people were ramped up enough to actually do it. 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:31.260 , so I'm learning. 00:07:31.260 --> 00:07:33.150 The other two guys I had with me are learning. 00:07:33.440 --> 00:07:36.350 , we're supposed to be the experts in this stuff, and so , the 00:07:36.350 --> 00:07:37.550 company we're working for. 00:07:37.680 --> 00:07:39.780 They're looking at us like, you don't know this. 00:07:39.780 --> 00:07:40.440 You're the expert. 00:07:40.440 --> 00:07:41.190 Why don't you know this? 00:07:42.180 --> 00:07:42.540 You know? 00:07:42.970 --> 00:07:44.350 , so it was just a little bit of both. 00:07:45.375 --> 00:07:47.805 CJ: Man, this is like a candid behind 00:07:47.880 --> 00:07:48.630 Duke: Very canid. 00:07:48.630 --> 00:07:48.990 I'm like, 00:07:49.005 --> 00:07:49.515 CJ: right? 00:07:49.650 --> 00:07:51.300 Duke: you how much I appreciate that. 00:07:53.650 --> 00:07:55.300 , But it's, it's important, right? 00:07:55.300 --> 00:07:57.640 Because everybody's got a story like 00:07:57.965 --> 00:07:59.240 Phil: Yeah, yeah. 00:07:59.390 --> 00:07:59.740 CJ: Right. 00:07:59.760 --> 00:08:02.910 And I don't think people, , understand how often something like this can happen. 00:08:03.470 --> 00:08:03.590 I. 00:08:04.120 --> 00:08:09.280 Where you find yourself as the expert, but you don't consider yourself an expert. 00:08:09.670 --> 00:08:10.030 Right. 00:08:10.030 --> 00:08:14.480 And , the, the folks you're working for are like, just make it work, right? 00:08:14.480 --> 00:08:17.420 , we gotta deliver this thing for the client and it's gotta work. 00:08:17.640 --> 00:08:20.610 And you just wanna do the best job you can for both parties, right? 00:08:20.610 --> 00:08:25.650 But , it does drop a lot of stress, on the folks who are charged then to implement. 00:08:26.205 --> 00:08:29.365 Phil: Yeah, exactly, because, , just consider , the pace at which you 00:08:29.365 --> 00:08:30.985 have to ramp up for this stuff. 00:08:31.035 --> 00:08:33.745 , especially if it's an, application that you , hadn't had a lot of 00:08:33.745 --> 00:08:37.710 experience with, , you don't have to, to waste, . And so , I spent a lot of 00:08:37.710 --> 00:08:42.210 time on the docs trying to understand things, , like asking other devs 00:08:42.210 --> 00:08:46.980 questions in terms of not even so much, like, okay, how do you deal with hr? 00:08:46.980 --> 00:08:47.820 How do you develop this? 00:08:48.030 --> 00:08:51.080 But in terms of like, how do I deal with the client's, , requirements, 00:08:51.080 --> 00:08:56.120 how do I help them to understand, , best practice of ServiceNow, , that 00:08:56.120 --> 00:08:57.350 we, we just can't do that. 00:08:57.350 --> 00:08:57.410 I. 00:08:59.655 --> 00:09:00.790 CJ: We shouldn't, right? 00:09:01.380 --> 00:09:03.540 Phil: It's gonna affect your performance and this is not gonna 00:09:03.810 --> 00:09:04.920 be what you want in the end. 00:09:06.055 --> 00:09:08.115 . And so it was a great project. 00:09:08.175 --> 00:09:10.215 I, I will say, like I learned a lot. 00:09:10.465 --> 00:09:14.455 I learned that , in meetings, you have to come confident. 00:09:14.455 --> 00:09:17.185 You have to be confident regardless of if you know it or not. 00:09:17.605 --> 00:09:21.205 , because the client is relying on you , to fulfill what their needs. 00:09:21.205 --> 00:09:23.245 They're looking at you as the expert and the expert needs to 00:09:23.245 --> 00:09:24.925 have that like level of confidence. 00:09:25.205 --> 00:09:28.235 , and even if you don't know, it's like a sense of, okay, hey, I, I don't 00:09:28.235 --> 00:09:29.315 know, but let me get back with you. 00:09:29.315 --> 00:09:30.365 I'm gonna get the answer for you. 00:09:30.395 --> 00:09:31.925 'cause that's what they expect from you. 00:09:34.015 --> 00:09:35.995 . CJ: Man, that is, that's a jewel right there, right? 00:09:35.995 --> 00:09:38.935 That confidence , that you have to hold in front of the customer, like 00:09:38.935 --> 00:09:41.125 they are expecting you to know. 00:09:41.125 --> 00:09:45.835 And so you have to appear to know, and even when you don't know, like you 00:09:45.835 --> 00:09:50.485 have to be confident in the way that you present that lack of knowledge to. 00:09:50.995 --> 00:09:53.085 Like that is not a complete lack of knowledge. 00:09:53.085 --> 00:09:56.415 It is a very targeted, pointed lack of knowledge around 00:09:56.415 --> 00:09:57.825 this one particular thing. 00:09:58.035 --> 00:09:59.805 But I know how to figure that out for you. 00:10:00.135 --> 00:10:00.615 Right. 00:10:00.615 --> 00:10:04.195 You know, just to wrap up the segment , on that previous project, what I 00:10:04.195 --> 00:10:07.095 heard from you, , and what I've, know as having experienced these things 00:10:07.095 --> 00:10:10.365 in the past is, is that these things can be, make or break for a career. 00:10:11.310 --> 00:10:15.390 Like this could be the thing that makes you decide, I am never, ever, 00:10:15.390 --> 00:10:17.760 I'm out of, of this, of this ecosystem. 00:10:17.760 --> 00:10:18.060 Right? 00:10:18.210 --> 00:10:18.630 Like, I'm done. 00:10:18.630 --> 00:10:20.760 If this is how it rose, no, , I don't wanna deal with this. 00:10:20.760 --> 00:10:25.200 Or it could be one where you make it to the end, the thing gets delivered 00:10:25.200 --> 00:10:29.460 successful, you know, everybody is tired and exhausted, but they still 00:10:29.460 --> 00:10:32.010 celebrate The cake comes through, right? 00:10:32.010 --> 00:10:32.550 And, 00:10:33.345 --> 00:10:33.735 Phil: Yeah. 00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:37.650 CJ: the, and the next thing you know, like you're now the go-to guy for hr. 00:10:38.355 --> 00:10:41.445 And obviously in your case it became the latter. 00:10:41.625 --> 00:10:48.135 But, I wonder how many folks have a story where, it didn't quite end up like this. 00:10:48.135 --> 00:10:50.325 , where they didn't become like Philip, the HR guy. 00:10:51.225 --> 00:10:55.130 And, they just were like, man, , I gotta take a step back from this. 00:10:55.180 --> 00:10:55.990 , this is crazy. 00:10:55.990 --> 00:10:59.080 Anyway, I, my point, there is just, , there's a lot of folks who are gonna 00:10:59.080 --> 00:11:01.510 listen to this, who are gonna find themselves in this sort of position 00:11:01.510 --> 00:11:02.710 at some point in their careers. 00:11:02.950 --> 00:11:05.530 ? I think the lesson that I'm learning here is that , you 00:11:05.530 --> 00:11:07.090 just really gotta push through. 00:11:07.090 --> 00:11:10.780 , if you want this right, if you want this to be your career, if you want 00:11:10.780 --> 00:11:14.680 to excel in it, push through, figure out how you can be successful. 00:11:14.680 --> 00:11:16.240 Put in the time, put in the effort. 00:11:16.420 --> 00:11:18.770 Right, because , , you said before you spent a lot of 00:11:18.770 --> 00:11:20.390 time down on the docs, right. 00:11:21.320 --> 00:11:24.830 You know, the docs dot Service now you were getting all the information 00:11:24.830 --> 00:11:27.220 and, the clients were pre presenting you with stuff you didn't know. 00:11:27.460 --> 00:11:28.180 And where do you go? 00:11:28.180 --> 00:11:29.230 You go and figure it out. 00:11:29.230 --> 00:11:31.580 I'm sure not all of that happened, , in the nine to 00:11:31.580 --> 00:11:33.400 five , that you were put in, right? 00:11:33.620 --> 00:11:33.950 Phil: Yeah. 00:11:34.430 --> 00:11:35.240 No, not at all. 00:11:36.485 --> 00:11:38.075 CJ: You know, but you wanted that success, right? 00:11:38.075 --> 00:11:41.045 Like, you wanted this to be successful and you wanted that growth 00:11:41.045 --> 00:11:42.185 that was gonna come out of that. 00:11:42.185 --> 00:11:43.415 And I wanted to highlight that, 00:11:43.415 --> 00:11:46.385 for our listeners out there, , who might find themselves in a 00:11:46.385 --> 00:11:48.065 situation that's challenging, right? 00:11:48.115 --> 00:11:51.125 , push through it, ? If you get to the other side of it, man, 00:11:51.125 --> 00:11:52.175 are you gonna be straight? 00:11:52.490 --> 00:11:52.880 Phil: Oh yeah. 00:11:53.015 --> 00:11:53.305 Yeah. 00:11:53.445 --> 00:11:53.665 Yes, 00:11:55.040 --> 00:11:58.290 Duke: Speaking of, the other side of it, how long did it take? 00:11:58.290 --> 00:12:02.190 ..., I have a somewhat similar story in the SPM realm. 00:12:02.740 --> 00:12:05.490 , but I had, , close to a decade of ServiceNow experience. 00:12:05.490 --> 00:12:05.550 I. 00:12:05.970 --> 00:12:09.360 Before somebody asked me, Hey, do SPM we know you don't know how. 00:12:10.050 --> 00:12:13.430 , so I could talk a lot about the other aspects of the platform and I had 00:12:13.430 --> 00:12:16.820 a sense of, I already knew how to figure things out on the platform. 00:12:17.300 --> 00:12:22.460 So how long did it take before you went from, holy cow, I gotta figure this out. 00:12:22.490 --> 00:12:28.250 'cause tomorrow versus like, walking on with that swagger that comes 00:12:28.250 --> 00:12:30.215 from, yeah, , I know this stuff now. 00:12:30.485 --> 00:12:31.625 How long do you think that took? 00:12:31.955 --> 00:12:36.335 Phil: It may have taken me like a few months to really get my sea legs 00:12:36.335 --> 00:12:40.005 in because you, as you're learning things, you start to feel , for lack 00:12:40.005 --> 00:12:44.305 of better words, , confident at that specific niche that you're working in. 00:12:44.525 --> 00:12:46.235 , for example, we're talking about hr, 00:12:46.535 --> 00:12:50.765 like once I really understood that, like HR services and how those are configured. 00:12:50.765 --> 00:12:53.645 I felt really confident I understand HR services. 00:12:54.095 --> 00:12:58.575 And then, as I was moving forward and within this project and other 00:12:58.575 --> 00:13:01.145 projects, I started to understand, , how are we gonna secure these? 00:13:01.145 --> 00:13:04.325 'cause requests are coming in we want you to secure it. 00:13:04.655 --> 00:13:06.395 How does it work for hr? 00:13:06.665 --> 00:13:07.595 , and so. 00:13:07.755 --> 00:13:12.255 That was, I can't say another month of figuring that out, but maybe a 00:13:12.255 --> 00:13:13.845 couple weeks of understanding that. 00:13:13.845 --> 00:13:17.215 So, , it took me a couple months to really just fully, get my sea legs. 00:13:17.515 --> 00:13:21.085 But as I was doing it, it's, it's kind of like, I wanted 00:13:21.085 --> 00:13:22.405 to run a marathon for example. 00:13:22.915 --> 00:13:27.325 , and the first mile, it feels terrible because your body 00:13:27.325 --> 00:13:28.435 really isn't ready for it. 00:13:28.705 --> 00:13:31.845 , but as you get into it, you get into the groove and you start to 00:13:31.845 --> 00:13:32.865 understand it a little bit more. 00:13:32.965 --> 00:13:36.285 , and it's still hard, but , you feel like , you're making progress. 00:13:36.345 --> 00:13:38.985 So it took me a couple months to really fully get , my sea legs, 00:13:39.255 --> 00:13:42.185 but . Even before then, I was like, oh, you know, I'm understanding this. 00:13:42.185 --> 00:13:43.265 Okay, I understand that. 00:13:43.265 --> 00:13:46.815 , and I was actually making real good progress to where, , it propelled 00:13:46.815 --> 00:13:49.545 me to continue to wanna go, even though I wasn't, I knew I wasn't 00:13:49.905 --> 00:13:51.795 like there all the way in a sense. 00:13:52.780 --> 00:13:53.830 CJ: So it's the growth, right? 00:13:53.830 --> 00:13:55.150 It's the growth that keeps you going. 00:13:55.555 --> 00:13:55.945 Phil: Yeah. 00:13:56.270 --> 00:13:59.420 , CJ: I can definitely see that if you don't feel like you're, , progressing, then, 00:13:59.670 --> 00:14:00.900 , you start to lose confidence, right? 00:14:00.900 --> 00:14:01.980 You start to feel bad, right? 00:14:01.980 --> 00:14:02.970 Nobody wants to feel bad. 00:14:05.035 --> 00:14:05.335 Yeah. 00:14:05.575 --> 00:14:05.935 Nice. 00:14:07.195 --> 00:14:09.475 So tell us about hr. 00:14:09.505 --> 00:14:13.345 So I'll tell you like I noted out of that project for different reasons, right? 00:14:13.345 --> 00:14:14.395 I didn't leave, leave. 00:14:14.395 --> 00:14:15.775 , there was a reason behind it. 00:14:16.045 --> 00:14:18.765 we're not disclosing to people, but the, , they were callous. 00:14:18.795 --> 00:14:20.475 I had a family situation going on. 00:14:20.505 --> 00:14:23.985 , it was an emergency situation and they were calling me while I was 00:14:23.985 --> 00:14:25.795 at the hospital, , with someone. 00:14:25.845 --> 00:14:28.835 , and when I explained the situation to them, they were callous 00:14:28.835 --> 00:14:30.185 in their, , treatment of it. 00:14:30.695 --> 00:14:33.905 And so I quit at the hospital while I was on the phone with them. 00:14:35.315 --> 00:14:37.655 And, I know not everyone has that privilege, but I did. 00:14:38.725 --> 00:14:41.665 But I would encourage everyone to work to try to get that privilege. 00:14:41.915 --> 00:14:45.305 , because there's family is everything, and you should never let anyone, 00:14:45.495 --> 00:14:48.495 , come between you and your family, especially when it's an emergency 00:14:48.495 --> 00:14:50.115 situation like I was experiencing. 00:14:50.455 --> 00:14:54.175 So that's why I left the project, , but I also left HR behind at the same 00:14:54.175 --> 00:14:57.265 time, but not, not for that reason, just because I didn't really like it. 00:14:57.475 --> 00:15:01.735 Um, so, so tell us, Philip, tell us why you like it. 00:15:04.665 --> 00:15:08.715 Phil: For me, the central thing about HR is the services is in terms of like, what 00:15:08.715 --> 00:15:14.625 service is this human resource department actually supplying to their employees. 00:15:15.075 --> 00:15:17.385 , and everything just builds on top of that. 00:15:17.605 --> 00:15:18.385 , in terms of. 00:15:18.505 --> 00:15:22.345 What aspect of this HR department is providing this service? 00:15:22.345 --> 00:15:25.675 , in HR we have a thing called COEs, or Center of Excellences, which 00:15:25.675 --> 00:15:29.635 are all this, the HR tables, like there's a payroll talent management, 00:15:29.635 --> 00:15:31.275 workforce admin , and a couple others. 00:15:31.815 --> 00:15:35.735 , and , when we're developing for HR and getting requirements, we're 00:15:35.735 --> 00:15:40.055 asking the HR teams, , or even people operations teams 'cause. 00:15:40.455 --> 00:15:44.890 Different companies call their department differently , and look at it differently. 00:15:44.890 --> 00:15:46.120 And I can explain that a little later. 00:15:46.660 --> 00:15:50.200 , but , we're considering what services are we providing? 00:15:50.490 --> 00:15:55.710 , who are the entities within HR that's providing that service, and what are the 00:15:55.710 --> 00:15:57.840 inputs for them to fulfill that service? 00:15:58.020 --> 00:16:00.970 So when I say inputs, I'm thinking what are , the routes at which this 00:16:00.970 --> 00:16:05.080 service is going to be requested, whether it's through record producers 00:16:05.080 --> 00:16:08.260 or is it through some sort of inbound email action, or is it just through a 00:16:08.260 --> 00:16:12.650 call or what have you, , to actually provide that service to fulfill. 00:16:13.020 --> 00:16:16.980 , and then looking at how is it secured? 00:16:16.980 --> 00:16:18.685 Who, what group is actually. 00:16:19.280 --> 00:16:21.080 Going to be fulfilling this. 00:16:21.560 --> 00:16:23.000 And we think about assignment groups. 00:16:23.540 --> 00:16:26.480 , the thing I like about HR is that it's about people. 00:16:26.535 --> 00:16:29.125 , and I enjoy work dealing with people. 00:16:29.415 --> 00:16:32.595 , so , let's say I'm a parent and I need to understand my benefits. 00:16:32.595 --> 00:16:35.385 I, how am I gonna engage with the HR department? 00:16:35.385 --> 00:16:35.415 Uh. 00:16:36.635 --> 00:16:38.825 Through, you know, through the HR system. 00:16:39.495 --> 00:16:43.285 , and so when I think about that, I'm like, okay, when we're designing , the 00:16:43.285 --> 00:16:46.375 form for you , to fill out, does it make, will it make sense to you? 00:16:46.785 --> 00:16:50.205 , and I think that's one of the biggest difference between, in my head, between it 00:16:50.265 --> 00:16:54.385 SM and HR is that, , it, you're thinking of IT systems, you're thinking about the 00:16:54.385 --> 00:16:57.325 network and such like that, not so much. 00:16:57.800 --> 00:16:58.580 People related. 00:16:58.580 --> 00:17:00.910 I mean, obviously there's people in IT involved, but not , as 00:17:00.910 --> 00:17:03.010 people centric as HR is. 00:17:03.550 --> 00:17:08.350 And so when I think like what is hr, it's central to that. 00:17:08.470 --> 00:17:10.150 Like what services are we providing? 00:17:10.150 --> 00:17:12.760 Who are we providing to these services to and who are , the 00:17:12.760 --> 00:17:14.480 service providers, , for that? 00:17:14.915 --> 00:17:17.345 CJ: So it all starts with the people when it comes down to hr 00:17:17.540 --> 00:17:17.960 Phil: Yeah. 00:17:18.545 --> 00:17:20.555 , CJ: so, first of all, great explanation, right? 00:17:20.565 --> 00:17:24.255 I've never heard it broken down like that and never thought about it that way. 00:17:24.525 --> 00:17:27.795 , kudos, . For being a developer who actually likes to talk to people. 00:17:31.995 --> 00:17:35.535 I mean, it's like three of us on this call and I, we might be, most of us. 00:17:40.885 --> 00:17:42.415 Duke: You've done stuff on the ITSM side 00:17:42.580 --> 00:17:42.910 Phil: Yeah. 00:17:43.145 --> 00:17:43.435 Yeah. 00:17:43.625 --> 00:17:47.015 Duke: What's most surprising about the transition to hr? 00:17:47.015 --> 00:17:47.825 From ITSM? 00:17:47.875 --> 00:17:50.995 , what would surprise most ITSM folks about what goes on in the HR system? 00:17:51.515 --> 00:17:54.875 , Phil: when we think of ITSM, we think about the different, , records in ITSM. 00:17:54.875 --> 00:17:57.455 We think about, there's an incident there. 00:17:57.455 --> 00:17:58.805 There's the change record. 00:17:58.805 --> 00:18:01.495 There's the problem record and such. 00:18:01.795 --> 00:18:05.605 And, , we think about it in a sense of, oh, an incident is 00:18:05.605 --> 00:18:06.685 an incident is an incident. 00:18:06.685 --> 00:18:08.875 Whether it's a major incident, whether it's a small incident, a 00:18:08.875 --> 00:18:10.375 problem is a problem is a problem. 00:18:10.645 --> 00:18:10.975 You know, it. 00:18:11.350 --> 00:18:13.210 Several incidents that create a problem. 00:18:13.540 --> 00:18:18.140 But in hr, a case isn't, a case isn't case, like , each case is related 00:18:18.140 --> 00:18:21.510 to its service, , that the service offering that is connected to. 00:18:22.050 --> 00:18:26.400 , and I think that's what surprises people from ITSM coming into HR is 00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:29.250 that it's not every record is the same. 00:18:29.650 --> 00:18:32.640 , obviously from a ServiceNow developer's perspective, a record is 00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:34.050 a record is a record in ServiceNow, 00:18:34.260 --> 00:18:34.410 Duke: Yeah. 00:18:34.410 --> 00:18:34.830 Yeah. 00:18:34.950 --> 00:18:35.850 Phil: you know, um. 00:18:35.925 --> 00:18:37.785 Duke: you saying they're like task extensions? 00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:40.440 Phil: Yeah, so they're all extended from task in general. 00:18:40.490 --> 00:18:45.310 In terms of , HR case versus an ITSM incident request or requested item. 00:18:45.620 --> 00:18:48.350 , or lemme take that back in terms of requested item. 00:18:48.350 --> 00:18:50.335 But anyway you're dealing with case management. 00:18:50.715 --> 00:18:53.925 And all the workflows , that come off of that particular case. 00:18:54.275 --> 00:18:57.745 , and the flows that come off of how this is fulfilled, , in terms of different 00:18:57.745 --> 00:19:00.145 tasks or, other things involved in that. 00:19:00.505 --> 00:19:06.125 , versus thinking about it in terms of, I have , a break fix issue and I'm 00:19:06.125 --> 00:19:10.935 creating the incident form that's going to, , highlight what that break fix 00:19:10.935 --> 00:19:13.465 is, or, what's the priority on that. 00:19:13.685 --> 00:19:19.275 , in terms of, . Who it was opened for or who requested it, I should say like in 00:19:19.275 --> 00:19:23.655 hr you're thinking who opened this and who's the subject of this actual case? 00:19:24.215 --> 00:19:27.405 , and how to think about that is , the subject is what the ca 00:19:27.525 --> 00:19:29.175 who the per the case is about. 00:19:29.475 --> 00:19:35.325 So for example, let's say I'm a manager and I wanna pro promote my employee. 00:19:35.725 --> 00:19:37.765 So I put in a case for promotion. 00:19:37.765 --> 00:19:40.735 So I am the open for, and my employee's the subject. 00:19:41.425 --> 00:19:45.235 And however, I may not want my employee to know that there's a case for him that 00:19:45.235 --> 00:19:46.945 he's gonna be promoted, it's a surprise. 00:19:47.275 --> 00:19:52.395 , and so in the, in case management, we could separate out or not allow the 00:19:52.395 --> 00:19:56.115 subject person to actually read that case or see those cases that are about him. 00:19:56.775 --> 00:19:59.925 Subject, you know, terminations you. 00:20:01.480 --> 00:20:01.780 CJ: Yeah. 00:20:02.675 --> 00:20:05.835 , Duke: I remember the good old days where nobody actually 00:20:05.835 --> 00:20:07.005 like, thought that through, 00:20:10.125 --> 00:20:13.845 and it was all of a sudden like, oh man, I probably shouldn't say this, but I 00:20:13.845 --> 00:20:16.975 worked for a place where a C-suite person. 00:20:17.815 --> 00:20:24.630 Found their own termination record before they were Yeah, yeah, that's exactly it. 00:20:27.445 --> 00:20:30.535 Like, I can't scream out loud. 00:20:30.625 --> 00:20:31.945 I'm screaming inside. 00:20:33.040 --> 00:20:34.630 CJ: Oh wow. 00:20:34.780 --> 00:20:35.320 Phil: Wow. 00:20:35.590 --> 00:20:36.220 That's crazy. 00:20:36.265 --> 00:20:38.665 Duke: So I love that, that they make that distinction right off the gate. 00:20:38.665 --> 00:20:38.935 There's 00:20:39.100 --> 00:20:39.400 Phil: Yeah. 00:20:40.370 --> 00:20:43.160 , Duke: and it took a while for the platform to get there, I would say. 00:20:43.160 --> 00:20:46.910 But it's this idea that there is the person, there's like a, there's 00:20:47.000 --> 00:20:48.440 different types of customers, right? 00:20:48.440 --> 00:20:51.770 There's the person who's who I'm interacting with, but then 00:20:51.770 --> 00:20:53.055 there's the person, this is about. 00:20:53.825 --> 00:20:54.155 Phil: Yeah. 00:20:54.655 --> 00:20:58.075 And an amazing thing about what ServiceNow has done with hr. 00:20:58.105 --> 00:21:01.745 'cause obviously from a technical perspective, they went from just a global 00:21:01.745 --> 00:21:03.845 application to a more scoped application. 00:21:04.075 --> 00:21:07.765 , now there were, they started to consider these features that we're 00:21:07.765 --> 00:21:11.575 talking about in terms of the open force subject person in terms of the 00:21:11.575 --> 00:21:17.375 security around the case who, , security, not so much even security, if the. 00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:20.500 Open for subject person, but also the security of which 00:21:20.500 --> 00:21:22.270 groups have access to this case. 00:21:22.440 --> 00:21:24.300 , in terms of, securities and such. 00:21:24.600 --> 00:21:28.920 And, and in one sense, they were thinking about human resources, which 00:21:28.920 --> 00:21:33.890 is about hiring, , onboarding, like payroll, like termination, those things. 00:21:34.250 --> 00:21:38.530 But then they shifted into more of a people operations thought process, which 00:21:38.530 --> 00:21:40.780 is more about the people and the culture. 00:21:41.020 --> 00:21:44.290 It's about, , skill acquisition, , and goal settings. 00:21:44.290 --> 00:21:47.350 And they do that through a thing they have called employee journeys, 00:21:47.630 --> 00:21:50.210 , where you can create tasks and. 00:21:50.455 --> 00:21:55.475 A journey for your different employees to, to gain specific skills, and such 00:21:55.475 --> 00:21:57.155 and whatever the employee's goals are. 00:21:57.435 --> 00:22:00.115 , so they're like evolving , as they're going through this and 00:22:00.115 --> 00:22:02.665 seeing the market out there and what the market is looking for. 00:22:03.035 --> 00:22:05.066 , it's quite amazing their thinking on , this stuff. 00:22:06.165 --> 00:22:07.005 Duke: Tell me more about this. 00:22:07.005 --> 00:22:11.845 Is this like a way to modernize your workforce as you go or something? 00:22:11.845 --> 00:22:11.995 Or, 00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:15.560 Phil: Yeah, it's a philosophical look at your, organization. 00:22:15.690 --> 00:22:20.580 , and it's more in terms of understanding that an organization is not just about, 00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:24.630 . Making sure the workers are there to do the work, but it's really taking care of 00:22:24.630 --> 00:22:28.110 the workers , and making sure that the workers , feel taken care of, , get a 00:22:28.110 --> 00:22:30.290 sense , of loyalty towards the company. 00:22:30.510 --> 00:22:33.450 And it's a company considering, alright, how do we. 00:22:33.970 --> 00:22:37.690 Help our employees to reach whatever their career goal is. 00:22:37.960 --> 00:22:41.360 , so it's now it's beyond just, , do we have employees who 00:22:41.540 --> 00:22:43.040 are doing the work to get it out? 00:22:43.280 --> 00:22:46.230 Now it's thinking about , how my employees growing. 00:22:46.260 --> 00:22:51.400 , are my employees , growing in a way that want, I have these skills that I need do. 00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:52.450 Um. 00:22:54.450 --> 00:22:58.590 Like creating an avenue so that my employees can reach the skills they need 00:22:58.590 --> 00:23:01.020 to meet continuing demands out there in. 00:23:03.655 --> 00:23:07.415 And so, , ServiceNow started to consider that's where, , HR departments are 00:23:07.415 --> 00:23:11.035 going into, , and are starting to call themselves people, operation departments, 00:23:11.195 --> 00:23:14.635 , and having a different philosophical look at , their organization and how, 00:23:14.855 --> 00:23:17.495 , these departments run , , and work. 00:23:17.765 --> 00:23:21.430 And so, , ServiceNow is just capitalizing that and , giving organizations 00:23:21.430 --> 00:23:23.120 that , the tools to do that. 00:23:26.825 --> 00:23:31.415 CJ: What is interesting to me about that is the evolution of this, right? 00:23:31.415 --> 00:23:35.030 And I think that evolution of looking at , the folks who are working for a 00:23:35.030 --> 00:23:40.170 company as more than just the hours that they put in, but also, , as more 00:23:40.170 --> 00:23:45.850 holistic individuals who have career goals and pathways and objectives. 00:23:45.900 --> 00:23:49.740 And really working on that to so that they can fill some additional 00:23:49.740 --> 00:23:52.540 fulfillment , out of their, , career and association with the company, 00:23:52.540 --> 00:23:54.010 I think is really pretty awesome. 00:23:54.010 --> 00:23:54.865 And having it all. 00:23:55.480 --> 00:24:00.970 Wrapped up and into one segment of the platform and all on one platform, 00:24:00.970 --> 00:24:05.140 I feel like is probably something that is, um, well, I don't know. 00:24:05.140 --> 00:24:07.590 I'm not an HR guy, but it definitely feels desirable. 00:24:07.590 --> 00:24:11.150 , and I don't know, , is that revolutionary, is that like something that ServiceNow 00:24:11.150 --> 00:24:14.601 is uniquely, , enabling or is it, , just , where the market's going , and 00:24:14.606 --> 00:24:17.060 ServiceNow say, well, we need to do this and then we're gonna do it 00:24:17.060 --> 00:24:18.600 better because , we're who we are. 00:24:18.825 --> 00:24:19.185 Phil: Yeah. 00:24:19.335 --> 00:24:21.705 And I think , they're really seeing that's where the market is going. 00:24:21.735 --> 00:24:26.365 , because , in a lot of these HR conferences that, and I'm not talking about ServiceNow 00:24:26.365 --> 00:24:30.055 HR conferences, but just HR conferences, that's what they're talking about. 00:24:30.055 --> 00:24:31.735 , they're talking about skill acquisition. 00:24:31.735 --> 00:24:34.935 They're talking about their, these, their employees , and, , and the 00:24:34.935 --> 00:24:36.885 culture of the company and such. 00:24:37.015 --> 00:24:39.745 , because they understand that if you have good company culture, 00:24:39.895 --> 00:24:40.975 your company's gonna do great. 00:24:41.185 --> 00:24:43.555 If your employees are enjoying their work, they're going to, they're. 00:24:43.575 --> 00:24:44.505 They're gonna do well. 00:24:44.675 --> 00:24:48.545 , and so like, how do we best do that and how do we best position ourselves 00:24:48.545 --> 00:24:50.615 to, , to do that for our employees? 00:24:50.895 --> 00:24:52.935 , and ServiceNow is like capitalizing on that. 00:24:53.355 --> 00:24:56.715 , and you know, it's, and you see it through just different new 00:24:56.715 --> 00:24:58.305 ServiceNow offerings through hr. 00:24:58.425 --> 00:25:01.125 I mean, this one isn't brand new, but there's , employee document 00:25:01.125 --> 00:25:05.025 management, which is basically ServiceNow is becoming more of a 00:25:05.025 --> 00:25:07.065 electronic, , file cabinet, so to speak. 00:25:07.630 --> 00:25:12.390 To where when employees email or add documents into ServiceNow, there's 00:25:12.390 --> 00:25:18.060 now a filing system where I can say, okay, here's all my employee documents. 00:25:18.220 --> 00:25:21.610 And easy be able to access those, that information and add 00:25:21.610 --> 00:25:22.990 a level of security to that. 00:25:23.380 --> 00:25:23.860 . CJ: Nice. 00:25:24.090 --> 00:25:24.380 Phil: Yeah. 00:25:24.380 --> 00:25:24.381 Yeah. 00:25:24.795 --> 00:25:25.005 Sorry. 00:25:25.185 --> 00:25:29.295 I'm saying, and again, and, um, considering like, what's the legality of 00:25:29.295 --> 00:25:31.005 how long I have to hold this document? 00:25:31.365 --> 00:25:31.875 Uh, 00:25:32.170 --> 00:25:33.100 CJ: that one's important. 00:25:33.160 --> 00:25:37.480 I know that one from, from ITSM writing in legal holes, and sometimes, there's 00:25:37.530 --> 00:25:43.140 a thing with an employee and it's like, ooh, right, but you gotta right. 00:25:44.340 --> 00:25:45.690 Man, you, you know, Philip. 00:25:45.720 --> 00:25:49.320 , what strikes me about this conversation is how much, you know, not just 00:25:49.530 --> 00:25:54.110 about the technical aspects of HR as it exists in ServiceNow, but 00:25:54.110 --> 00:25:57.350 also about HR processes as a whole. 00:25:57.830 --> 00:25:57.860 I. 00:25:58.190 --> 00:26:03.470 Like how HR works in general as it would be implemented in a number of 00:26:03.470 --> 00:26:06.740 different tools or even absent a tool. 00:26:07.190 --> 00:26:07.400 Right. 00:26:07.400 --> 00:26:10.550 Do you find that is a significant benefit for you as you implement 00:26:10.790 --> 00:26:12.165 HR on the ServiceNow platform? 00:26:13.085 --> 00:26:13.895 Phil: Yeah, I do. 00:26:13.895 --> 00:26:16.955 Because the thing is when we're getting requirements, we have to first think, 00:26:16.985 --> 00:26:21.125 , agnostically in terms of system agnostic, because if you go straight into. 00:26:21.575 --> 00:26:24.035 You know, let's just say you get requirements where the person says, 00:26:24.035 --> 00:26:27.365 oh, I need this task, this, I'm doing this task, this task, and this task. 00:26:27.905 --> 00:26:30.365 Then you're thinking, oh, if you're thinking just ServiceNow, you're like, 00:26:30.365 --> 00:26:31.895 alright, I need to create a task for this. 00:26:31.895 --> 00:26:35.015 Let's create a task for get employee documents or create 00:26:35.015 --> 00:26:37.575 a task for, , verify this and. 00:26:37.925 --> 00:26:41.225 , and you're not thinking in terms of what the actual real 00:26:41.225 --> 00:26:42.665 process is that is happening. 00:26:43.055 --> 00:26:44.925 , 'cause you don't want to take that and just translate 00:26:44.925 --> 00:26:46.245 it directly into ServiceNow. 00:26:46.245 --> 00:26:50.445 And now you're creating this cumbersome flow, , that the end 00:26:50.445 --> 00:26:51.795 users won't even like using. 00:26:52.955 --> 00:26:56.465 . , it's really like understanding where the client is coming 00:26:56.465 --> 00:26:57.785 from, from an HR perspective. 00:26:57.785 --> 00:26:59.155 Like what are they trying to do? 00:26:59.575 --> 00:27:01.225 Who are the people they're trying to serve? 00:27:01.395 --> 00:27:05.655 , and so understanding that how can I make this easy for them, , to where you're 00:27:05.655 --> 00:27:11.025 actually getting good requirements, not, , this kind of mess that, that can happen 00:27:11.025 --> 00:27:12.835 that I've seen happen, , in the past. 00:27:13.930 --> 00:27:14.290 CJ: Yeah. 00:27:14.320 --> 00:27:15.700 No, I, that's a good, really good point. 00:27:15.890 --> 00:27:18.460 It's amazing , how often, and I think this probably stretches 00:27:18.460 --> 00:27:19.540 beyond the HR realm, right? 00:27:19.540 --> 00:27:24.080 , it's just amazing how often we are as the tool builders go into situations and we're 00:27:24.080 --> 00:27:27.020 asked, Hey, build a tool for this process. 00:27:27.020 --> 00:27:31.770 But we may or may not, , have a whole lot of knowledge about that actual process. 00:27:32.110 --> 00:27:34.780 , but the client looks at you as an expert, right? 00:27:34.780 --> 00:27:37.720 And while you might be a ServiceNow expert, they also. 00:27:38.035 --> 00:27:41.185 Feel that you are a expert on the process that they're trying 00:27:41.185 --> 00:27:44.485 to get built in the ServiceNow, which may or may not be the truth. 00:27:44.485 --> 00:27:47.925 , it is those situations, I think when you're able to combine both that process 00:27:47.925 --> 00:27:49.365 knowledge with the tool knowledge right. 00:27:49.365 --> 00:27:55.170 Then where, customer success really does shine through and I think that's 00:27:55.170 --> 00:27:56.640 important for folks to hear, right? 00:27:56.640 --> 00:27:59.925 Because it takes some time to become an expert, but , it doesn't 00:27:59.925 --> 00:28:01.465 take time to , seek out knowledge. 00:28:02.425 --> 00:28:06.265 And so, if you're asked to implement incident management, , there's , a ton 00:28:06.265 --> 00:28:10.195 of information out there that you can read up on about successful incident 00:28:10.195 --> 00:28:14.215 management processes and how they work and , things that have been tried. 00:28:14.215 --> 00:28:14.635 Things that I. 00:28:14.860 --> 00:28:19.210 Don't work very well, things that work very well in a number of different places. 00:28:19.390 --> 00:28:19.630 Right. 00:28:19.630 --> 00:28:23.320 And at least you have now a grounded level of knowledge that you can 00:28:23.320 --> 00:28:26.210 come in these conversations with and, help facilitate them through. 00:28:26.210 --> 00:28:29.480 And the more then, and then the more that of these engagements that you do, , the 00:28:29.480 --> 00:28:31.340 more you obviously grow your expertise. 00:28:32.030 --> 00:28:32.420 Phil: Yeah. 00:28:32.990 --> 00:28:36.170 Yeah, I definitely agree, especially if we wanna call ourselves architects for 00:28:36.170 --> 00:28:40.890 example, , it's good to understand the underlying business process, , to really 00:28:40.890 --> 00:28:44.780 architect a, successful solution , for the client, , that you're working on. 00:28:45.140 --> 00:28:48.800 I've had my HR certification for a long time and I've met a lot of people who 00:28:48.800 --> 00:28:52.080 have HR cert, well, a number of people who've had HR certifications, and the 00:28:52.080 --> 00:28:55.930 only thing that I would say , is missing is just really understanding that , the 00:28:55.930 --> 00:28:59.470 kind of people you're working with in hr, HR people are different from it. 00:28:59.470 --> 00:29:00.610 People like it. 00:29:01.145 --> 00:29:03.245 Duke: I, oh, preach brother. 00:29:03.905 --> 00:29:04.415 Preach. 00:29:04.955 --> 00:29:09.890 I just, because , that goes for all of the non ITSM apps. 00:29:10.355 --> 00:29:15.115 Like, when I was doing SPMA lot, , the thing that , they told me they liked 00:29:15.115 --> 00:29:19.505 about me was we get these other resources to do SPM, they keep on 00:29:19.505 --> 00:29:23.315 talking about this thing called CMDB and they keep on wanting to know about 00:29:23.315 --> 00:29:25.175 like escalation and prioritization. 00:29:25.175 --> 00:29:30.305 And we're like, man, like I care about dollars and time, you know, that, 00:29:30.305 --> 00:29:33.605 that's what keeps me, or, or risk, like how do I quantify my risk and. 00:29:34.340 --> 00:29:38.540 It, it, there really is a different set of things that keep people up at 00:29:38.540 --> 00:29:42.770 night and just knowing that alone, just , tell me what's a nightmare 00:29:42.770 --> 00:29:47.420 scenario for You can teach you a ton about how you do the implementation. 00:29:48.110 --> 00:29:48.140 I. 00:29:49.010 --> 00:29:49.640 CJ: Yes. 00:29:50.705 --> 00:29:51.185 Phil: Oh yeah. 00:29:51.575 --> 00:29:51.935 Yeah. 00:29:53.250 --> 00:29:53.700 It is. 00:29:53.700 --> 00:29:56.970 I mean, even think about that example you talked about earlier, the CEO who 00:29:56.970 --> 00:29:58.200 found out that he's getting fired. 00:29:58.250 --> 00:30:02.330 , I've seen a situation where the employee , found out that they had a, 00:30:02.430 --> 00:30:03.810 , employee relations case against them. 00:30:04.890 --> 00:30:06.660 You know, it's like a nightmare scenario. 00:30:06.660 --> 00:30:11.190 Like, oh my, you know, especially if it's your employee and something against them. 00:30:14.905 --> 00:30:17.700 But yeah, but once you get down to that and , you figure out, okay, 00:30:17.750 --> 00:30:20.810 this is the driving force behind this client and what they're working on. 00:30:20.940 --> 00:30:24.570 You're better in a sense, like once you understand like their driving force, 00:30:24.700 --> 00:30:28.130 , because you can lead them , to a, like a real successful, , implementation. 00:30:28.320 --> 00:30:29.070 , when you understand that. 00:30:30.660 --> 00:30:30.990 CJ: Right. 00:30:31.020 --> 00:30:33.090 , because then you'd know what they're trying to get out of it. 00:30:33.090 --> 00:30:37.860 And so you build the system in a way that helps unlock that outcome for them. 00:30:38.620 --> 00:30:41.080 , I just think that's really important , for folks to know, right? 00:30:41.080 --> 00:30:44.500 It's, that it's not incident management, 00:30:44.870 --> 00:30:47.600 is incident management for client a. 00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:50.080 It's not, change management. 00:30:50.140 --> 00:30:54.340 It is change management for multinational client C. 00:30:54.760 --> 00:30:55.150 Right? 00:30:55.150 --> 00:30:58.400 These processes, it don't, exist in a vacuum. 00:30:58.400 --> 00:31:02.360 You can't just bust open the ITIL book and then drop the 00:31:02.360 --> 00:31:03.890 generic process in there, right? 00:31:03.890 --> 00:31:07.155 , that's your start about how generally these things kind of work and flow. 00:31:07.895 --> 00:31:11.755 But the next thing is like you and Rob were , just talking about, ? It's about 00:31:12.025 --> 00:31:14.335 what keeps folks up at night, right? 00:31:14.335 --> 00:31:16.315 And why are, why am I even here? 00:31:16.525 --> 00:31:21.235 Like, what prompted you to make this call to ServiceNow, which prompted me the 00:31:21.235 --> 00:31:23.275 next call to me, you know what I mean? 00:31:23.935 --> 00:31:25.585 And, and so right. 00:31:25.585 --> 00:31:29.295 Knowing that helps you really, get the best out of, , the requirements, 00:31:29.295 --> 00:31:33.105 gathering what your, with your client, and also put the best into the platform 00:31:33.105 --> 00:31:34.365 so that everybody's successful. 00:31:34.635 --> 00:31:35.055 Love it. 00:31:35.175 --> 00:31:35.835 Good stuff. 00:31:36.205 --> 00:31:38.215 Duke: Gosh, almost, , three, seven minutes of record. 00:31:38.575 --> 00:31:39.905 Phil, are you independent? 00:31:40.845 --> 00:31:42.740 Phil: Yeah, so right now I am independent. 00:31:43.190 --> 00:31:47.340 , and so I'm under the name Cloud, CTW, , that's my organization. 00:31:47.770 --> 00:31:51.640 One of the biggest things , I'm trying to do is get, just get out the knowledge 00:31:51.640 --> 00:31:56.200 about what HR is and how to, at least the configuration of hr because I know 00:31:56.200 --> 00:31:57.730 what it is when you're a new developer. 00:31:58.020 --> 00:32:02.410 , and so I've put out a number of YouTube videos, not long form videos. 00:32:02.410 --> 00:32:05.320 They're very short form because we only have but so much time to learn 00:32:05.470 --> 00:32:11.230 these things , and, , I'm doing on YouTube, slash at Cloud ctw. 00:32:11.510 --> 00:32:15.560 , and then each week, every Friday, I put out a new video on hr. 00:32:16.635 --> 00:32:17.085 Duke: All right. 00:32:17.085 --> 00:32:19.935 We were gonna have those links for you in the description below, as well 00:32:19.935 --> 00:32:21.495 as an email how you can reach Phil. 00:32:21.825 --> 00:32:23.475 , Phil, any last wisdom for our audience? 00:32:23.475 --> 00:32:23.505 I. 00:32:24.405 --> 00:32:27.525 Phil: Yeah, I think anyone who's willing to learn HR does. 00:32:27.765 --> 00:32:28.575 HR is amazing. 00:32:29.375 --> 00:32:32.855 I've pretty much made a career out of it and I , don't think you can't 00:32:32.855 --> 00:32:34.795 do this without a, certification. 00:32:34.795 --> 00:32:38.305 I would say obviously go get your certification, , but look for 00:32:38.305 --> 00:32:40.105 opportunities within the HR space. 00:32:40.135 --> 00:32:41.575 If I can do it, anyone can. 00:32:43.395 --> 00:32:44.930 CJ: I don't know about that, but we'll see. 00:32:50.270 --> 00:32:51.770 Oh no, and that's just my faith in you, man. 00:32:51.770 --> 00:32:52.460 I've seen you work. 00:32:52.460 --> 00:32:54.530 It takes a while to get to your level of expertise. 00:32:54.900 --> 00:32:55.620 Kudos for that. 00:32:55.620 --> 00:32:57.360 Why you make sure we put that out there. 00:32:57.390 --> 00:32:59.650 And, , Philip, it's great having you on the show. 00:32:59.800 --> 00:33:01.660 It's been a great conversation. 00:33:01.740 --> 00:33:05.660 , I learned so much about hr, , and I'm still sending everybody to you. 00:33:09.905 --> 00:33:10.385 Duke: All right folks. 00:33:10.385 --> 00:33:13.235 If you wanna get in touch with Phil, if you wanna check out his LinkedIn, give 00:33:13.235 --> 00:33:14.645 him an email or check out his YouTube. 00:33:14.825 --> 00:33:16.685 , we'll have a links to the description below. 00:33:16.685 --> 00:33:17.615 Everybody take a shot 00:33:18.170 --> 00:33:18.770 CJ: That's right. 00:33:18.970 --> 00:33:19.210 Duke: on the.