raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: Hey folks, and welcome to another episode
of the Small Tech Podcast by EC.
I'm your host, Raph, and today we have another amazing guest.
She has co-founded a few different companies, including EarthProof, which
was acquired and she is currently the co founder of R&G Strategic,
which is the sustainability agency.
She is an amazing designer and a wonderful person.
She is Liz Gosselin.
Hi, Liz.
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: Hi.
Wow.
Thanks.
Great intro.
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: So, it's very exciting to have you on the
podcast today because we worked together on a few different projects and I know a
fair bit about you and your background, but I'd love to dig in a little bit more
and yeah, learn about how you do what you do and how you got to where you are.
So I was curious.
If you could tell me a little bit about your story, like how did you get into
design and branding and yeah, how did that, how did that all come about?
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: that happen?
I think it's kind of cool.
Our paths did overlap at a few points too.
So I started out at Concordia University in fine arts, which I think we just
missed each other there because you were also around the school.
and then I moved over to NASCAD and I started into design, which through that
I think I really knew throughout I wanted to start my own business at some point.
but the design element was really fun, so it was kind of a good multi purpose
education where I was learning some skills, but also knew I wanted to come
out of it and become an entrepreneur.
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: that's
so interesting to me because I was kind of the opposite.
I was just looking for a job and had trouble and I was like,
I guess I'll do my own thing.
How did that, like, manifest in you, when you were in school?
Like, did, did you, were you trying to build things before you graduated?
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: I think I was always excited seeing other
people build things, and the startup community where I met you was always cool
to kind of hop in and see what people were building, so I was kind of always
looking at ideas, what to do, I think, I thought there was going to be quite a few
years of taking jobs, but I had a similar moment to you after school where I was
like, I think the better option actually is just working for myself right away.
So yeah, just dove straight into that.
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: yep, Volta was pretty awesome.
So you actually had connections to Volta, like, you had been to Volta before
graduating, like, you were hanging out there while you were still at NASCAD?
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: It wasn't while I was still there, it
was after, but I did get introduced a bit into like the DALL startup space,
where they'd incubate a few companies.
And I think I was just always excited by people starting things, so I knew
it was coming for me eventually.
Did you know it was coming for you, or was it a
surprise?
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: No, for me it was a bit of a surprise.
I was kind of hoping for a job.
I mean, to be fair, I was trying to build stuff while I was in university.
I just didn't think it could ever be real.
Yeah.
So, I was
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: What's the first thing you built?
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: 3D animation, and I wanted to get into the
movie industry, I had this idea that I would build a render farm and that
there could be a nice online interface.
I had this idea for an app that was called Critical.
But it was spelled really, really poorly, where it was like, creative
collaboration, so just cre a l it made not a whole lot of sense, but I started
trying to build that, and was like, oh, this is actually gonna be pretty tough.
I just wanted to build
cool
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: a long road.
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: for 3D animators and stuff.
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: cool.
To give you credit, the name probably was cool at the time,
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: Yeah,
yeah, back in the late 2000s.
Dropping vowels or mashing stuff together, yeah,
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: whatever get your .com, you just take it
out.
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: yeah, exactly.
yeah, so when you graduate at NASCAD, you get into this startup
environment, and then what happens?
You start doing stuff with tech companies, Okay.
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: Yeah, it was actually pretty cool, I
remember I volunteered at a Volta event, but I'd never been to Volta, and then
I ended up going to the space, and everybody was just like, here's work
you can do, and it was just this magical little environment, and I feel like
within three days, I just had contracts, like people were so Happy to see a
designer showed up in the space, and I was really excited about what they're
doing, what they're trying to build, and it was just a really nice spot to land.
you know, a free desk, free pizza, it was like the perfect out of school.
I've arrived to my new job, even though it's not an official job.
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: Yep.
It was really kind of a magical space that way.
I don't know.
Do you have any like particular memories of that time that you're like,
yeah this was the moment that I was like, this is what I'm going to do.
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: that's a good question.
I feel like it was just like, showing up and everybody just being so
encouraging and like, bump into it.
I think you go into other spaces and people are like, oh, that's
not safe, that's a risk, it's something they're not familiar with,
or something they haven't done.
Yeah.
So they're trying to like caution you like, oh, there's less job security.
You're not going to get health insurance.
You know, like their mind goes all these places, but you show up in a space like
Volta and everybody's already doing it.
I was like, of course you can do this.
And like, you don't, you don't feel like the outsider.
You're just like, yeah, yeah, let's do this.
Like this is a normal day.
Whereas if you went to like any other workspace, I feel like you might
have more hesitation around you.
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: for sure and so I guess with those
projects and like, with that support, what do you find most inspiring,
like getting into a project?
What, what helps you get those creative juices flowing
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: I
always kind of like the core of the project is the
people and the purpose of it.
So like, you meet people, they're really excited about something, you want to help
them out, especially if it's something that's going to have big impact or
like, you know, help with sustainability or change your community, those are
times you start to feel really excited.
And then helping them form strategy to communicate more effectively, people in a
different way than maybe they thought of is when you really start to excited and
want to be part of those projects, which I think you probably share a sentiment with,
with, the you've positioned your work.
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: that definitely, that resonates
a lot So maybe we can dive deeper into that so sustainability, that's
a thing that you find motivating, that's a thing that I find motivating.
How does your work change between, I mean, some of those startups and that
community presumably had some of that, which is how you find that world.
But then moving from something that doesn't have that kind of impact
to something in the sustainability space, is there anything that
changes for you in the process?
Is there a different way of thinking?
Like what do you do differently when you move into the sustainability space?
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: I think there was kind of a process
of changing my thinking over time.
Like, there were things that were initially exciting, like building
my first business, getting my first customers, like, you know,
all those things felt exciting.
And then the work started to fall flat and not have meaning.
Like, I realized the work I was doing wasn't really, wasn't really,
making any change or doing any good, even though like maybe it was
helping that business, it wasn't enough for me to like stay satisfied.
So once you sort of move into the sustainability space, I feel like
everyone working on a project is working for something bigger than
that's just the business as well.
So I think you just naturally surround yourself with a different type of person
who's working beyond the nine to five.
They're working because they're really passionate about what they're doing.
They really believe in the project they're working on, it,
it just changes the whole mood.
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: Yeah.
Is there anything sort of mechanically that changes?
Like the work that you would do in a traditional context versus these
types of contexts, is there anything that changes in the workflow?
Like how you talk to people, how you sort of conceptualize a brand or a design.
Or is it kind of the same, but just now you've got that motivation to get it done.
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: say the way we set up our team
is definitely different now because we're half sustainability
consultants, half marketing agencies.
So the way we work together really changes, it changes what we do a lot.
But if you kind of back up to just being a designer for any company,
these are still principles you should be applying to your work.
And making sure people aren't greenwashing, making sure
they're being transparent, Like there's a lot of homework to
do that you're responsible for.
You can't just like take whatever they want and put it on because they're
probably missing knowledge too.
Thanks a lot.
that's kind of an interesting gap that we're filling, and I think
that changes our whole workplace.
That if somebody has a concern, we have a team to resource, and our clients are
valuing that part of our team as well to help guide them, so their outcome
is actually transparent, and something they can be saying and representing
with their brand or working towards.
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: yeah, That makes a lot of sense.
Like, okay.
So there's a thing that you said there that makes me wonder,
specifically, are there things that are difficult in working in this space?
Like if people don't, I don't know, recognize, for example, what they
might be diving into from a client's perspective, if you're doing reporting
for a client and they perhaps don't fully understand what you need from them.
is there anything particularly difficult there?
Like how do you get around those kinds of issues?
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: say with a project as big as reporting,
like we're looking really early on in those phases of like, is this a good match
for a project with the client as to like, how much knowledge does your team have?
Who's doing what?
Like, these are all the things that need to get done.
And if you're a first time reporter, like, there's a lot to
learn, and there's a lot to do.
And it's a lot of manpower internally.
So it is kind of balancing, you know, here's what we can
provide and our knowledge.
Thanks.
So they know what they're onboarding to long term like it's also okay if
people are missing internal gaps because our team can kind of step in and fill
them as well and help teach them what needs to be done or set them up so they
can do it themselves the next year.
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: Yeah.
That makes sense.
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: Yeah.
I think some of these problems rise more when people are like coming with good
intention with a new business and they want to be sustainable, but they don't
necessarily have hours or the resources.
everything properly.
So they're coming to you with good intention and an
open mind, which is great.
oftentimes people just have like, they learned in the past that aren't
necessarily accurate, like around packaging and the impact of the packaging.
just be like, I need glass.
I just, I need glass.
It's sustainable.
And did you check if it's sustainable?
Like, are we, what are we comparing it to?
How are we presenting this?
Like you can't just write sustainable on that label because you pick
glass and it's not plastic.
Like not being plastic is not good enough to say that.
So it's often those conversations that are the harder ones where
there's like such a large and there's so much for that entrepreneur
to figure out if they're a small business, how to source all the right
materials, what actually makes sense.
Like it's just a really hard job for a small business.
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: yeah, that makes sense.
Um, I was at a session recently that was talking about ESG reporting and
the companies there were all early stage startups and they were, it
was neat because they were trying to think about it and they were trying
to think in this case specifically in like a more digital context.
but yeah, it was, it was cool.
It's cool to see them thinking about it, but also interesting to sort of note
that, you know, there's this whole like group of people and organizations who
want to do this kind of stuff but the
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: Mm hmm.
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: point is, is pretty tough.
Like getting into it and understanding what reporting means and how
you collect data and how you.
I don't know, make sure that it all makes sense.
Was pretty overwhelming, really.
A lot of people there are kind of like, oh, I, yeah, uh, I guess we'll
start thinking about it but not sure we're actually gonna be able to do it.
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: really, it's a big job, but often the
best route is just to take small pieces of it and say, it's year one, this is our
first try, and this is what we're going to accomplish year one, and we're going
to build up every year on top of that.
Unless you're a really large organization, you can just staff
your whole department and get going.
often that is the approach.
You're like, okay, this year we're going to figure out, you know,
our greenhouse gas emissions.
And we're going to publish those and do them properly.
And then next year, we're going to do a materiality assessment.
And next year, we're going to keep, you know, repeating everything every
year, but just add on one by one,
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: yeah.
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: because it is a lot to do.
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: Yep.
actually I'm kind of curious how many digital first, if that makes sense,
like software style organizations do you find do this relative to
non software, if that makes sense?
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: That's interesting, a lot of our clients
have like materials, so like mining materials, for example, or like, they
have a lot of spaces and buildings.
So they're less, digital focused, but I mean, a lot of the big tech companies are
really thinking about this and tracking it because they use a lot of power
and resources in a very different way.
yeah, I'm not as sure about like the small tech space and where they're at right
now, I think it is officially top of everyone's mind.
It's top of investors minds.
Like, people are asking more questions than they ever have.
Yeah, I feel like I see people also asking questions about like, okay,
where are we going to host this?
Like, does that data host or that data center have, green power
and what does that actually mean?
I see some of the cloud providers saying like, yeah, we are aiming
to be fully renewable by whatever year or wind powered and whatever.
Does that, is that showing up more for you?
think that's showing up, like, people are starting to understand they have to
ask more questions and they can't just keep doing business as usual and figuring
out where they can make improvements over time, so if their website or their
tool is a big part of their business, that is now a bigger consideration.
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: Yeah.
That makes sense.
So you, you do that kind of work, the reporting work, you do also like branding
and marketing and you work with a variety of like sizes of organizations.
but you also do things like when, when you told me about MyKidsFuture and sorry,
just to make it clear I do not have a kid.
It's a project called MyKidsFuture for anyone listening.
, But, yeah, you came to me and you said, hey, there's this
thing we're trying to build.
Are you interested in being involved?
Like how do projects like that come about for you?
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: back to what we were talking about before.
It's about the project and the people.
So a member of our team came in and was saying she was really
struggling with climate anxiety.
She had a really young kid at the time, and she was expecting her next one.
So it was really hard for her, having all of this knowledge, being a
sustainability consultant on our team.
And really knowing what the future looked like for her kids
and feeling so stuck in it.
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: hmm.
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: And we kind of had an internal
chat of like, what can we do?
And she said, maybe I can put my letter to my MP on the blog.
And we were all just like, I feel like everyone's just
kind of apathetic right now.
Like, there's so much scary news happening every day.
And it's so much to consume.
And then like, you don't even know how to act on it.
And that's kind of what triggered us to be like, oh, we just
have to take away the action.
Like, let's give people the info and like, let them act on it easily.
Because.
It's way too much for anybody to research this on their own.
Like it's so deep so hard to know if what you're looking at is accurate and
then to feel confident writing a letter.
That's like a couple days of work right there.
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: yep,
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: Yeah.
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: So okay, you have this motivation,
which it is, it's a very scary thing to think about.
And, and so you decide you're going to build it.
Like what was your thought process as you start to design the site,
figure out like what the user experience is going to be like.
Like, so in the end it's this for anyone who doesn't know mykidsfuture.ca it's a
site where you can put in some details about a child and you get back this card
this image, which explains what the future looks like for them in their province.
and then down below, there's a pre filled letter that you can send to your MP with
your child's details, embedded there.
So it just takes a lot of work out of the process.
so yeah, how did, how did that user experience come to life?
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: we were really lucky on this one
where you were so excited about it too, because there's always like
limitations starting a new project as to what can we actually build.
So kind of coming to you with my wishlist of like, I would, I mean,
internally at R&G, we always say we want to you know, hearts and change minds.
And apply that to this idea, it was like, how do we give people information
that just really moves them and changes them in a way they can do something?
So like serving them that piece of information that might be really hard
to read because it's your kid's future, but then being able to look through
and say, okay, I can't change this.
I can act on this.
And this is really important information that kind of pulled all of this together.
So I think that initial idea, and then being lucky enough to have
your collaboration of we can build this in a really cool interactive
way was just great timing.
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: Yeah, I was so excited to work on it.
I feel like it's a great project.
It makes me feel good about what we do.
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: Mm
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: Yeah, I like that there's
also this call to action.
It's not just a, Hey, here's some information to make you worried,
but here's like a thing that you can do to like actively make change
which is, I think, super important.
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: good.
And I, I think the tone of the language too really helps.
So that letter, we've even been getting messages that people's MPs are actually
phoning them back and spending time on the phone with them because the letters really
moved them because it was so personal.
I think people are sending in letters about their own kids and what
they love and why they're afraid.
And it's, different than a campaign where everybody just blasts out the same letter.
excites you about coming on board to a project like MyKidsFuture?
Like, is it a mix of how it's built and the creativity that you're coding,
or is it just about the impact?
Like, where do you find that middle ground of, tech project and it's also impactful
mm
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: There's like, from my perspective,
I'm personally quite motivated by technical sort of challenges.
So I like to think about how data moves, how you like manage infrastructure
and, and that sort of thing and so I think there was a part of me that
was like, okay, the idea of like dynamically generating this image.
So that you can share it and you have this artifact, digital artifact, as
opposed to just like something on a page.
so for anyone, technical who's listening, like one of the things that we do is
we actually generate this card with details that are personalized to the
information to the child's details.
And it turns into the sharing card for the page.
So if someone shares the URL.
On Facebook, on Slack, Twitter, wherever, that image will pop up as the sharing
card and so things like that, I find fun.
but of course the starting point has to be has to be motivating in and of itself.
Like I find that working on a technical challenge without a context that
motivates me just becomes a drag.
Then I'm like, okay, I'm doing this technical stuff.
That's kind of interesting, but for what?
so I feel like that, that intersection is, is really important for me.
Like the flip side as well.
Like if I do something that's for a very motivating mission.
But it's a WordPress site.
I'm not interested.
Um, and you know, there are some WordPress sites that, you know, there's some,
some complexity there that's kind of fun to poke around at, but generally
it's not, it's not my cup of tea.
so yeah, building this was, was really exciting.
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: was definitely something special.
I even really saw it come out like once we hit design, like there's so
much conceptually about this idea and then the technical aspect behind it.
But even the logo and the curves we put in the site just really
represented like the windy road everybody's on right now of like,
what is all this information?
What's happening?
Where are we going?
Like there's just this uncertain future.
And I think the site really played it up in like this really
friendly, approachable way.
That's also kind of a fun story as well.
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: Yeah.
Yeah.
I feel like it came together really, really nicely.
Yeah.
Between the visuals and the experience and all of that.
Um, yeah.
yeah.
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: Yeah,
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: I like
seeing
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: everyone should go check it
out.
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: go, go mykidsfuture.ca if you're listening,
if you're on your phone, maybe.
It's, it's mobile friendly.
If you were speaking to a younger you with all of the stuff that we've talked
about, all of the things that you've learned, all of the cool stuff that
you've built, is there any advice you would give to you from 10, 15 years ago?
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: think it is just remembering that if you
want to do something that people around you haven't done before, don't expect them
to get on board and be your cheerleaders and have advice for you because they've
just never done it before, so like, really go and find those spaces that encourage
what you're doing and can support you, like a startup space like, maybe something
for like women in tech if you want to build something just places you can be
encouraged and feel You know safe and heard and that what you're doing is valid
because I think surrounding yourself by those people who are in the same space
as you just really helps you kick off.
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: Amazing.
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: you find that too?
Landing in Volta?
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: Oh yeah, for sure.
For Volta, like.
I found another community here in Vancouver that I found really lovely,
which is Launch Academy, but there was something about Volta in particular.
I think the fact that you could go in and work from the space.
With zero dollars you can just go hang out and sit at a desk, have some internet,
connect with some cool people and just, they, I feel like they did a good job
of like curating the community, right?
Like saying, okay, yeah, you feel like you would be a good fit for this community.
You've got like skills or something to contribute.
Are you willing and ready to like help people out and
participate and stuff like that?
And yeah, I feel like they, they built an environment that was
so conducive to getting people interested in, entrepreneurship,
interested in tech and how you can do something cool with that yeah.
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: they really did.
I feel like looking back at that time too, it's just like a
reminder to just show up in those spaces and be your authentic self.
Like, it's okay to go in and not be, like, for the job you're
looking for at the end of it.
Like, it's okay to just show up with excitement and questions and curiosity
and tell people what you're dreaming of because they'll step in and help
you out instead of you all the mistakes you'll make along that journey,
right?
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: Yeah.
Totally.
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: mistake are you laughing about
there?
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: Uh, so many
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: So many, I
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: Yeah.
Yeah.
But having that community around to just help you out, be like, it's okay.
Like you can, you can get past this, you can get through this.
yeah.
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: Yeah, or probably the person next to
you already made the mistake and is so happy to share how they didn't do that
before you just run straight into it.
So,
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: Yeah.
Also free pizza, free pizza's.
Always good.
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: gets you far.
Free pizza and Red Bull.
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: Um, okay.
Yeah,
Sorry go.
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: was just gonna say I don't
need that Red Bull anymore.
I don't know about you,
but
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: Did I ever tell you that I, when, uh,
when I was at Volta, I had this thing where I went to the gym afterwards and
my head just felt like it exploded.
Did I tell you about that?
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: I think so.
And you're not the only person that happened to.
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: And then the doctor's going, you
got to cut down on the Red Bulls.
Yeah.
Too much free Red Bull.
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: much.
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: Cool.
So I think one last thing, we like to wrap these up with a small tech product
recommendation, which I think I asked you if you had something ready, but
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: I kind of want to go ahead and recommend
you go check out MyKidsFuture and send a letter to your MP because it's very
much on theme for this podcast today.
And everyone should be writing a letter on behalf of somebody in their life.
raph--he-him-_1_05-02-2024_094613: I love it.
That is a great recommendation.
So again, mykidsfuture.ca go check it out.
Send that letter.
it's important cool.
Well, thank you so much, Liz.
It was really fun chatting with you.
It's always fun chatting with you.
Um, and thanks for coming on the podcast.
liz-gosselin--she-her-_1_05-02-2024_134613: Thanks for having me, Raph.
This was great.
Thronmax MDrill One Pro & USB Video: And that was my conversation with the
amazing Liz Gosselin of R and G strategic.
You can find her, her work, her company's work at rgstrategic.com.
You can find us at smalltechpodcast.com and on YouTube, on Spotify and
everywhere else where fine podcasts are sold or, you know, distributed.
So like, and subscribe, it really helps us out.
If you head to smalltechpodcasts.com, you can find the newsletter.
And if you want to be a guest on the podcast in the
future, just reach out to us.
We would love to talk to you about your journey building small tech products.
Oh, also, go check out mykidsfuture.ca.
We're really proud of the project and the work we did
with Liz and R and G strategic.
We really hope it can have an impact here in Canada.
Thronmax MDrill One Pro & USB Video-1: And that's it for this week's episode and we
all want to do good in the world folks.
So go out there and build something good.
I'll see you in the next one.
See ya.