1
00:00:05,421 --> 00:00:07,441
morning Grid Connections listeners.

2
00:00:07,441 --> 00:00:11,961
Today we're thrilled to have Eric Way, the
host of the News Coulomb YouTube channel.

3
00:00:11,961 --> 00:00:17,241
I originally met Eric by being a guest on
Plug and Play TV's live show discussing EV

4
00:00:17,241 --> 00:00:18,721
road tripping.

5
00:00:18,841 --> 00:00:22,721
Eric brings a wealth of experience from
his background of living in Northern

6
00:00:22,721 --> 00:00:24,701
California with a Chevy Bolt.

7
00:00:24,701 --> 00:00:29,221
In this episode, we dive into the various
EV road trip tactics, discuss the rollout

8
00:00:29,221 --> 00:00:31,221
of EV charging infrastructure,

9
00:00:31,221 --> 00:00:36,501
and share our visions for the future of
EVs and EV charging road trips.

10
00:00:36,801 --> 00:00:39,861
If you enjoyed this episode, please share
it with at least one other person you

11
00:00:39,861 --> 00:00:40,961
think would love it too.

12
00:00:40,961 --> 00:00:44,561
And don't forget to leave a positive
review on our podcast page as well,

13
00:00:44,561 --> 00:00:45,441
please.

14
00:00:45,441 --> 00:00:49,441
Your support helps us bring more exciting
content to you.

15
00:00:49,441 --> 00:00:51,507
With that, enjoy.

16
00:00:52,380 --> 00:00:53,140
you, Chase.

17
00:00:53,140 --> 00:01:01,680
Yeah, I have a YouTube channel news
Coulomb pun intended You know I started a

18
00:01:01,700 --> 00:01:07,240
little over seven years ago now when I
when I got my bolt TV just sort of as a

19
00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:13,620
means of sort of communicating my
experiences as I got that car and You

20
00:01:13,620 --> 00:01:15,580
know, and it's just sort of grown from
there.

21
00:01:15,580 --> 00:01:20,288
So yeah, we just just knew news Coulomb

22
00:01:20,288 --> 00:01:23,308
on YouTube and that's pretty much it.

23
00:01:24,308 --> 00:01:29,928
So what made you choose originally the
Bolt EV or what made you kind of take the

24
00:01:29,928 --> 00:01:32,290
plunge into going with an electric
vehicle?

25
00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:39,420
Well, I mean, I'd been driving plugins
for, well, it's going on 12 years now.

26
00:01:39,420 --> 00:01:45,320
So the Chevy Volt is what I ended up
getting, 2011 Chevy Volt.

27
00:01:45,320 --> 00:01:48,880
And I think I actually didn't get it until
almost 2012.

28
00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:53,380
But I had been interested in electric
vehicles for a long time.

29
00:01:53,380 --> 00:01:58,552
It's kind of the story you hear too about
like remote control car, RC car.

30
00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:03,240
I always had those as kid, and I was
playing with, always fiddling with the

31
00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:05,020
battery and the motors.

32
00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:10,280
So I was always interested and throughout
the early 2000s, I was tracking the

33
00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:21,640
industry just as a sort of fan, watching
what proceeded with the GM EV1, the Ranger

34
00:02:21,640 --> 00:02:27,040
EV, which I actually own two of now that
I'm restoring, was actually the EV I

35
00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:28,064
always wanted.

36
00:02:28,064 --> 00:02:32,264
When it came out, it was what, $50 ,000,
$55 ,000?

37
00:02:32,304 --> 00:02:37,644
My little head at the time exploded with
the thought of how expensive that was.

38
00:02:37,784 --> 00:02:43,544
So yeah, just basically, and then early
2000s, I was even planning out some sort

39
00:02:43,544 --> 00:02:50,264
of a conversion, DIY conversion, but
that's the dark ages of EV conversions

40
00:02:50,264 --> 00:02:56,664
when people were using forklift motors and
12 volt car batteries.

41
00:02:57,088 --> 00:03:01,588
to put together something that had about
30 miles of range, if you were lucky.

42
00:03:02,248 --> 00:03:05,748
And just budget, time constraints, all of
that never worked out.

43
00:03:05,748 --> 00:03:09,158
And I considered the Nissan Leaf when it
first came out too.

44
00:03:09,158 --> 00:03:13,668
And I just realized with its range, I was
gonna need two cars.

45
00:03:13,668 --> 00:03:15,468
There's just no way possible.

46
00:03:15,468 --> 00:03:19,108
So I eventually ended up getting the Chevy
Volt.

47
00:03:19,188 --> 00:03:23,776
And it was maybe the first Chevy that I
had.

48
00:03:23,776 --> 00:03:28,416
purchased myself in one of the only Chevys
my family had ever owned.

49
00:03:29,016 --> 00:03:33,576
And I was kind of won over by the tech,
right?

50
00:03:33,576 --> 00:03:37,956
I was won over by how well they integrated
the electric motors.

51
00:03:38,576 --> 00:03:43,396
As a lot of Volt owners will tell you, the
weakest part of the Chevy Volt is the gas

52
00:03:43,396 --> 00:03:44,696
engine, right?

53
00:03:44,696 --> 00:03:49,116
I mean, everything else about that car is
great.

54
00:03:49,376 --> 00:03:51,104
And so when...

55
00:03:51,104 --> 00:03:56,924
you know, I found out that GM was building
the Chevy Bolt EV.

56
00:03:57,704 --> 00:04:03,704
I was kind of sold on it already, but I
knew I was getting an EV and at that point

57
00:04:03,704 --> 00:04:10,264
in time, it was either the Tesla Model
S60D or the Bolt EV.

58
00:04:10,584 --> 00:04:15,564
And it basically made the agreement with
myself, whichever, you know, if they were

59
00:04:15,564 --> 00:04:19,744
able to deliver the Bolt EV by the end of
2016,

60
00:04:19,744 --> 00:04:25,504
I was going to go that direction because
it's literally half the cost.

61
00:04:25,544 --> 00:04:31,984
I was budget and value minded at the time
and I took the plunge and I went with it.

62
00:04:32,304 --> 00:04:40,444
From that point forward, it was just
wanting to share my experiences because I

63
00:04:40,444 --> 00:04:42,684
had a unique use case.

64
00:04:42,684 --> 00:04:48,760
That was that I was putting on some days
150 to 200 miles a day.

65
00:04:48,864 --> 00:04:54,524
I didn't have charging at home for a lot
of the time, so it was either work

66
00:04:54,524 --> 00:04:56,344
charging or public charging.

67
00:04:56,344 --> 00:05:00,804
So there were really limited options for
me and you know, I needed something.

68
00:05:00,804 --> 00:05:05,844
Then of course every couple of weeks I'd
go on a thousand, fifteen hundred mile

69
00:05:05,844 --> 00:05:06,794
weekend trip.

70
00:05:06,794 --> 00:05:12,244
And so I needed something that was capable
of doing all of that long range driving.

71
00:05:13,204 --> 00:05:17,440
And you know, it needed to be technology
that I trusted.

72
00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:21,409
Like I said, GM had already kind of proven
themselves to me with the Volt.

73
00:05:21,409 --> 00:05:25,440
So that's kind of where I got where I was
going.

74
00:05:27,100 --> 00:05:31,820
But yeah, I mean, I don't know.

75
00:05:31,820 --> 00:05:33,270
Did that answer your question?

76
00:05:33,270 --> 00:05:35,636
That's kind of how I ended up in the car.

77
00:05:35,636 --> 00:05:36,576
kind of jump off point.

78
00:05:36,576 --> 00:05:42,216
I'm curious with when you say you're
driving a couple hundred miles a day and

79
00:05:42,216 --> 00:05:45,156
then maybe you're doing these longer road
trips on the weekends.

80
00:05:45,156 --> 00:05:49,096
Was that with the idea you'd have the Bolt
as a daily driver and then you were still

81
00:05:49,096 --> 00:05:52,716
keeping the Chevy Volt for those longer
drives or a second car?

82
00:05:52,716 --> 00:05:57,420
Or were you planning at that time to do it
all in the Bolt as your main car for it?

83
00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:04,560
That was the other thing is it needed to
be my only car and so I still own like so

84
00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:09,000
somewhere along the line I was putting on
those miles even even when I first got my

85
00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:15,840
my Chevy Volt so maybe a sub chapter to
the backstory is I did eventually trade in

86
00:06:15,840 --> 00:06:22,420
my 2011 volt for a 2015 volt a little bit
better battery capacity a little bit more

87
00:06:22,420 --> 00:06:26,744
features and functionality, but it was
mostly actually the internet

88
00:06:26,784 --> 00:06:35,224
the OnStar, the 4G LTE internet, because
where I am currently, right, I'm speaking

89
00:06:35,224 --> 00:06:41,944
to you through Starlink, because there
just aren't any ISPs where I am in

90
00:06:41,944 --> 00:06:46,004
Northern California, where my family and
my property is.

91
00:06:46,004 --> 00:06:48,954
So I needed something that also had an
internet.

92
00:06:48,954 --> 00:06:52,644
That's why I went with the 2015 Volt, sort
of traded it in.

93
00:06:52,644 --> 00:06:55,360
But when I got my Bolt EV,

94
00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:59,900
I had made a deal with my family that I
took their C -Max.

95
00:06:59,900 --> 00:07:01,860
I said, you're done with this.

96
00:07:01,860 --> 00:07:07,780
You're taking my Volt and I'm going and
I'm trading the C -Max in.

97
00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:15,560
And then that way they got high speed
internet up here and they had a plug -in

98
00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,100
hybrid, not just a hybrid.

99
00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:20,360
And then I got the Volt EV.

100
00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:24,352
So the Volt EV needed to do all of that
driving on its own.

101
00:07:24,352 --> 00:07:31,032
That's why I said early on in my video
channel is it's the no training wheels EV,

102
00:07:31,032 --> 00:07:31,572
right?

103
00:07:31,572 --> 00:07:32,932
You don't have a backup.

104
00:07:32,932 --> 00:07:35,552
You don't have a gas generator on board.

105
00:07:35,552 --> 00:07:36,812
There's no training wheels.

106
00:07:36,812 --> 00:07:39,072
You're fully committed now.

107
00:07:39,072 --> 00:07:39,704
So.

108
00:07:41,012 --> 00:07:43,652
Yeah, I think that's an interesting way to
put it, especially with kind of the

109
00:07:43,652 --> 00:07:46,012
charging infrastructure at that time when
you purchased it.

110
00:07:46,012 --> 00:07:48,742
But I know that's something we'll probably
be talking more about.

111
00:07:48,742 --> 00:07:50,692
So I want to, I'm kind of curious.

112
00:07:50,692 --> 00:07:54,732
I didn't really fully appreciate how long
you'd been driving the Chevy Volt and just

113
00:07:54,732 --> 00:07:58,132
thinking of kind of the current news and
what we've been hearing from General

114
00:07:58,132 --> 00:07:58,952
Motors.

115
00:07:58,952 --> 00:08:02,592
They're still obviously pushing electric
vehicles and they're finally delivering

116
00:08:02,592 --> 00:08:08,232
some more now, but there's clearly been a
pushback from some of the traditional

117
00:08:08,232 --> 00:08:11,202
legacy auto OEMs here domestically about.

118
00:08:11,556 --> 00:08:15,396
kind of the more temperate approach and
doing plugin hybrids.

119
00:08:15,396 --> 00:08:20,736
And I'm, I'm kind of curious on your
thoughts of the plugin hybrid versus Evie

120
00:08:20,736 --> 00:08:26,456
fully Evie debate and where you think kind
of looking at the market nowadays, what it

121
00:08:26,456 --> 00:08:27,968
makes the most sense.

122
00:08:28,192 --> 00:08:32,612
Well, if you brought me on here for hot
takes, you'll get one.

123
00:08:33,492 --> 00:08:38,532
Honestly, I really don't see a place for
plug -in hybrids.

124
00:08:38,532 --> 00:08:40,092
Not anymore.

125
00:08:40,112 --> 00:08:47,332
You could maybe make an argument 12 years
ago that plug -in hybrids were a valid

126
00:08:47,332 --> 00:08:48,552
option.

127
00:08:48,812 --> 00:08:55,812
But at this point in time, I see them as
essentially a complete waste.

128
00:08:55,812 --> 00:08:56,832
You're...

129
00:08:56,832 --> 00:09:03,012
You're not any plug -in hybrid that you
have You're going to drive and you're

130
00:09:03,012 --> 00:09:08,372
going to realize how much better that car
would be if it were just all -electric And

131
00:09:08,372 --> 00:09:14,592
that's what you see here here all the time
from Chevy Volt owners from BMW i3 owners

132
00:09:14,592 --> 00:09:19,488
if only I had double the battery capacity
if only I had

133
00:09:19,488 --> 00:09:24,148
a hundred miles of EV range or only I had
a hundred and fifty miles of EV range,

134
00:09:24,148 --> 00:09:27,868
then I'd never need to use the gas engine
except in emergencies.

135
00:09:27,868 --> 00:09:31,728
Well, that's kind of what the public
charging infrastructure is there for

136
00:09:31,728 --> 00:09:32,688
anyway.

137
00:09:32,688 --> 00:09:39,988
So at this point in time, it just it's a
waste for me, in my opinion, to go down

138
00:09:39,988 --> 00:09:45,348
that road of adding an internal combustion
engine, adding all of the equipment that

139
00:09:45,348 --> 00:09:49,400
goes with it, wasting all the space, all
the complexity, all the cost.

140
00:09:49,472 --> 00:09:56,392
when you're literally replacing that with
a similar cost in batteries and doubling

141
00:09:56,392 --> 00:10:01,452
or tripling or quadrupling the range, the
power, the capability of the car.

142
00:10:01,492 --> 00:10:07,672
So to me, there might be a couple of valid
use cases for plug -in hybrids and it's

143
00:10:07,672 --> 00:10:12,572
almost all going to be commercial or heavy
duty vehicles.

144
00:10:12,892 --> 00:10:19,032
And really I see even that as a cop out
because to me,

145
00:10:19,296 --> 00:10:25,556
The use cases for someone who really would
want to plug in hybrid, you're either

146
00:10:25,556 --> 00:10:32,356
better off getting an all electric that's
more capable on the EV side, or if that's

147
00:10:32,356 --> 00:10:36,136
not good enough for you, and there is a
small percentage of the population where I

148
00:10:36,136 --> 00:10:39,976
do agree that that's still true, you
should just get a hybrid instead.

149
00:10:39,976 --> 00:10:44,856
A mild hybrid because most of your gains
are going to be from stopping the internal

150
00:10:44,856 --> 00:10:47,424
combustion engine when you come to a
stoplight,

151
00:10:47,424 --> 00:10:53,064
doing low speed EV driving, maybe a mile
or two at a time.

152
00:10:53,064 --> 00:10:57,184
And then once you get up to speed, you're
running off the gas engine.

153
00:10:57,184 --> 00:11:01,664
And at least that way you're saving all of
those batteries for more capable EVs.

154
00:11:01,664 --> 00:11:04,604
You're saving yourself cost and
complexity.

155
00:11:05,244 --> 00:11:09,960
But you're getting all the benefits of a
hybrid essentially.

156
00:11:10,868 --> 00:11:11,348
For sure.

157
00:11:11,348 --> 00:11:12,728
And I actually agree with you.

158
00:11:12,728 --> 00:11:18,588
And I, obviously, I think where I'm at
here and been, there's a decent amount of

159
00:11:18,588 --> 00:11:22,348
electric vehicles and plug -in hybrids,
but the incident you go east of here or

160
00:11:22,348 --> 00:11:28,868
like northeast of here, it is literally a
desert charging and weather or climate

161
00:11:28,868 --> 00:11:29,508
wise.

162
00:11:29,508 --> 00:11:33,768
And so I do understand why some people
kind of make that choice.

163
00:11:33,768 --> 00:11:35,308
And if they are.

164
00:11:35,700 --> 00:11:39,000
kind of skeptical or hasn't to go fully
EV, but you're totally right when it just

165
00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:42,960
seems like the people that do that within
a few months are like, yeah, if only this

166
00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:46,460
thing had twice the battery range or they
start doing all the things anyway, that

167
00:11:46,460 --> 00:11:51,180
it's your, you're close enough and,
between the maintenance and other kinds of

168
00:11:51,180 --> 00:11:54,660
points of failures, it does seem to make
sense to just go to a fully electric

169
00:11:54,660 --> 00:11:55,240
system.

170
00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:56,860
One.

171
00:11:57,024 --> 00:12:02,244
I was just going to close by saying, you
know, as an experienced volt owner, I can

172
00:12:02,244 --> 00:12:07,824
tell you for a fact that gas anxiety is a
real thing.

173
00:12:07,824 --> 00:12:13,164
There were trips that I literally didn't
take that I could have because it would

174
00:12:13,164 --> 00:12:14,844
have been burning gas.

175
00:12:14,844 --> 00:12:18,434
And I just didn't I just didn't want to be
burning the gas at the time.

176
00:12:18,434 --> 00:12:24,226
So it's like, well, I could go on this
200, 300 mile weekend excursion.

177
00:12:24,288 --> 00:12:26,218
I'd be burning gas.

178
00:12:26,218 --> 00:12:27,388
I just don't want to do it.

179
00:12:27,388 --> 00:12:30,848
I don't feel like using the money or
wasting the time or what you're using the

180
00:12:30,848 --> 00:12:31,078
fuel.

181
00:12:31,078 --> 00:12:38,168
So there is a gas anxiety component to it
because you get addicted to the EV side of

182
00:12:38,168 --> 00:12:38,368
it.

183
00:12:38,368 --> 00:12:42,828
Just knowing that it's completely
replenishable, completely renewable.

184
00:12:44,208 --> 00:12:46,928
Yeah, you just don't want to burn gas.

185
00:12:48,148 --> 00:12:49,198
Yeah, that's kind of funny.

186
00:12:49,198 --> 00:12:53,148
And that, that does make sense with when
you look at even going back further than

187
00:12:53,148 --> 00:12:55,748
that with kind of the original Prius is
and people who are kind of doing the

188
00:12:55,748 --> 00:13:00,148
hypermiling and trying to minimize how
much gas they were burning and even trying

189
00:13:00,148 --> 00:13:01,768
to convert those to plug in hybrid.

190
00:13:01,768 --> 00:13:06,188
So I think all of that does make a lot of
sense with that.

191
00:13:06,928 --> 00:13:14,188
you look at the Chevrolet bolt being
discontinued now, and there's obviously

192
00:13:14,188 --> 00:13:17,524
pros and cons to that, but what do you
think?

193
00:13:17,524 --> 00:13:23,994
for kind of the secondary market for used
cars because it seems like even brand new,

194
00:13:23,994 --> 00:13:24,904
they were pretty cheap.

195
00:13:24,904 --> 00:13:28,844
Plus now you can qualify for the $4 ,000.

196
00:13:29,684 --> 00:13:34,784
I'm not sure if it's a tax credit or how
the $4 ,000 used car government rebate

197
00:13:34,784 --> 00:13:42,404
works, but in that whole space, what do
you think if you were to get a used EV,

198
00:13:42,404 --> 00:13:46,344
would you go with a Bolt or would you look
at something else just kind of given where

199
00:13:46,344 --> 00:13:47,436
prices have

200
00:13:47,444 --> 00:13:50,220
dropped down for a lot of other used EVs.

201
00:13:50,976 --> 00:13:55,996
Well, I don't know that I would be in the
market for a used EV, right?

202
00:13:55,996 --> 00:14:01,476
I think I would actually prefer to go the
route of a new EV, and I think a lot of

203
00:14:01,476 --> 00:14:05,776
that does have to do with the $7 ,500
incentive, right?

204
00:14:05,776 --> 00:14:13,236
So yeah, there is the possibility of going
cheap, but I also don't know that I would

205
00:14:13,236 --> 00:14:20,792
go with a bolt EV, just assuming that I
would give up my car, then maybe, but...

206
00:14:20,992 --> 00:14:23,702
I wouldn't be replacing my Bolt EV.

207
00:14:23,702 --> 00:14:26,782
Right now on the chopping block first is
the Volt.

208
00:14:26,782 --> 00:14:32,292
So if we want to go from that example, if
I were going to replace my Volt with a

209
00:14:32,292 --> 00:14:38,992
cheap EV or a used EV, it probably
actually, believe it or not, might be

210
00:14:38,992 --> 00:14:41,022
something like the Nissan Leaf, right?

211
00:14:41,022 --> 00:14:45,272
It's something where I think it's actually
more capable than people give it credit

212
00:14:45,272 --> 00:14:46,132
for.

213
00:14:46,132 --> 00:14:50,132
And it's even cheaper than the Bolt EV.

214
00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:54,920
And as long as you go into it with the
understanding that you're probably not

215
00:14:54,920 --> 00:15:01,400
going to be taking long trips with it, it
really is for your local runabout.

216
00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:07,960
That and, you know, Nissan's credit, they
do great interiors, comfortable car.

217
00:15:08,540 --> 00:15:12,860
But yeah, I haven't really given, to be
perfectly honest, I haven't given much

218
00:15:12,860 --> 00:15:18,360
thought to the used market because, you
know, obviously you could go the direction

219
00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:20,484
of a Tesla Model 3.

220
00:15:20,736 --> 00:15:22,896
I don't know that I would go that
direction.

221
00:15:22,896 --> 00:15:28,716
One of the things that maybe I would have
mentioned is that where I live, ground

222
00:15:28,716 --> 00:15:31,196
clearance is a real thing.

223
00:15:31,476 --> 00:15:37,176
And so lower sedans is something that I
probably wouldn't want to go with.

224
00:15:37,436 --> 00:15:42,416
Maybe a used model Y would be more
appropriate in that direction, but it

225
00:15:42,416 --> 00:15:49,304
would definitely be leaning more toward
the crossover side rather than the...

226
00:15:49,376 --> 00:15:55,446
in the sedan or the smaller car, like an
IONIQ, original IONIQ, not the IONIQ 5.

227
00:15:55,446 --> 00:16:00,096
I wouldn't go with that either just
because of the size of the car and the

228
00:16:00,096 --> 00:16:01,356
ground clearance.

229
00:16:01,356 --> 00:16:02,008
So.

230
00:16:02,132 --> 00:16:02,492
For sure.

231
00:16:02,492 --> 00:16:05,492
And that's interesting because that's
actually a big part of the reason I chose

232
00:16:05,492 --> 00:16:07,192
our model Y.

233
00:16:07,412 --> 00:16:11,432
among other reasons, just kind of, we do a
lot of hiking and just kind of going on.

234
00:16:11,432 --> 00:16:15,602
I wouldn't by any means call them off road
trails when we've taken that thing.

235
00:16:16,252 --> 00:16:20,172
but yeah, easily dirt roads, sometimes
washed out.

236
00:16:20,172 --> 00:16:24,192
I mean, we did technically drive it over a
washed out bridge.

237
00:16:25,012 --> 00:16:30,172
but yeah, by no means is it like your
traditional off -roader, compared to like

238
00:16:30,172 --> 00:16:32,384
a Jeep or something like that.

239
00:16:32,384 --> 00:16:34,914
Well, and I did run into that same issue
with the Volt.

240
00:16:34,914 --> 00:16:37,184
It's another reason that I'm...

241
00:16:37,184 --> 00:16:41,184
that's gonna be the next car that I get
rid of is the Volt is because that low

242
00:16:41,184 --> 00:16:44,856
sedan, I was just running into problems
with it, so...

243
00:16:46,196 --> 00:16:48,546
Now, that is interesting.

244
00:16:48,546 --> 00:16:56,456
So we've talked about obviously the kind
of why you chose the bolt and the volt and

245
00:16:56,456 --> 00:16:59,816
doing these road trips and kind of being
in remote areas.

246
00:16:59,816 --> 00:17:04,036
And I think that's something both you and
I have definitely had some experience

247
00:17:04,036 --> 00:17:04,236
with.

248
00:17:04,236 --> 00:17:08,532
Now, I think one area where we may have
different opinions on is.

249
00:17:08,532 --> 00:17:11,202
around DC fast charging and that kind of
experience.

250
00:17:11,202 --> 00:17:14,572
Cause I mean, for me, that was one of the
big reasons automatically the bolt was

251
00:17:14,572 --> 00:17:16,932
never going to be on my list.

252
00:17:17,392 --> 00:17:21,772
is just like for doing long distance road
trips or just kind of doing like a splash

253
00:17:21,772 --> 00:17:24,332
and dash thing to get to where I need to
be.

254
00:17:24,332 --> 00:17:29,772
The 50 kilowatt, charging was definitely
not just between the infrastructure, but

255
00:17:29,772 --> 00:17:34,970
also, the availability on the time it
would take for that kind of charging.

256
00:17:35,008 --> 00:17:36,188
Right.

257
00:17:36,968 --> 00:17:44,208
Well, and I think so I went into it
partially with the understanding that

258
00:17:44,968 --> 00:17:47,768
charging was going to take a little bit
longer.

259
00:17:47,908 --> 00:17:52,768
And like I said, part of that came from my
experience with the Volt is I did some

260
00:17:52,768 --> 00:17:57,647
back of the napkin math and basically
figured that I would be looking at similar

261
00:17:57,748 --> 00:18:02,168
efficiencies in the Volt EV as what I was
seeing in the Volt and they weren't too

262
00:18:02,168 --> 00:18:03,068
far off.

263
00:18:03,068 --> 00:18:04,416
So.

264
00:18:04,416 --> 00:18:08,176
And then again, like you had mentioned,
even though we didn't know at the time

265
00:18:08,176 --> 00:18:13,296
that I got the Bolt EV, what its charging
rate was, we just knew that a majority of

266
00:18:13,296 --> 00:18:16,796
the public charging infrastructure was 50
kilowatt.

267
00:18:16,796 --> 00:18:20,896
And so at that point, it really becomes
sort of basic math, right?

268
00:18:20,896 --> 00:18:27,416
You look at the i3 or the LEAF that were
out already, and you get to look at their

269
00:18:27,416 --> 00:18:31,956
charging rate and say, okay, well, and
just shorthand in case you're ever

270
00:18:31,956 --> 00:18:32,704
curious,

271
00:18:32,704 --> 00:18:37,724
the 50 kilowatt chargers will add 23 .5
kilowatt hours.

272
00:18:37,724 --> 00:18:43,144
If you're maxing them out, they'll add 23
.5 kilowatt hours in a 30 minute session.

273
00:18:43,464 --> 00:18:48,284
So just doing that math, you can figure
how long it's gonna take you.

274
00:18:48,284 --> 00:18:55,744
And most of my trips were never more than
about 500 to 600 miles in a day.

275
00:18:55,744 --> 00:19:01,024
So I kind of was able to do those numbers
in my head and I knew that...

276
00:19:01,024 --> 00:19:07,964
going from the Volt to the Volt EV, I was
going to be adding about an hour to an

277
00:19:07,964 --> 00:19:10,984
hour and a half to those longer trips.

278
00:19:11,504 --> 00:19:18,044
And part of that is I would never go on a
10 hour drive without stopping for a meal

279
00:19:18,044 --> 00:19:22,424
at least and stopping at least one or two
times to use the bathroom.

280
00:19:22,424 --> 00:19:28,764
So when I would do those trips in the
Volt, it was typically two bathroom

281
00:19:28,764 --> 00:19:30,976
breaks, two discrete bathroom breaks.

282
00:19:30,976 --> 00:19:34,576
and then one fuel stop slash meal stop.

283
00:19:34,576 --> 00:19:36,636
That was about 45 minutes.

284
00:19:36,636 --> 00:19:43,616
So you add all of that together, it's
taking me about an hour or so to make a 10

285
00:19:43,616 --> 00:19:45,236
hour drive basically.

286
00:19:45,236 --> 00:19:51,686
With the Bolt EV, I need to add another 30
to 45 minutes to that, sometimes an hour.

287
00:19:51,686 --> 00:19:56,192
So that was a concession that I knew going
into it.

288
00:19:56,192 --> 00:20:01,912
And unfortunately as faster chargers
became available, which we kind of

289
00:20:01,912 --> 00:20:09,752
expected, it turned out the Bolt EV was
faster than the 50 kilowatt, but not fast

290
00:20:09,752 --> 00:20:12,852
enough, faster to make a huge difference,
right?

291
00:20:12,852 --> 00:20:17,252
So instead of two hours of charging to
make a 500 mile trip, now you're doing an

292
00:20:17,252 --> 00:20:20,002
hour and a half of charging to make a 500
mile trip.

293
00:20:20,002 --> 00:20:24,372
So it's still losing time to your point.

294
00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:30,520
But I do think that the Bolt EV in my mind
is sort of that bare minimum bar.

295
00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:38,340
Because as bad as we can say now in
today's framing the Bolt EV is, it's far

296
00:20:38,340 --> 00:20:44,140
from the slowest charging EVs available on
the market when you look at things like

297
00:20:44,140 --> 00:20:49,740
the Nissan Leaf, for example, or even the
BZ4X.

298
00:20:49,740 --> 00:20:53,568
We have vehicles even now.

299
00:20:53,568 --> 00:20:57,708
that aren't necessarily faster than the
Bolt EV in terms of charging, and I do

300
00:20:57,708 --> 00:21:02,488
think that they fall below the minimum
bar, which to me has always been about a

301
00:21:02,488 --> 00:21:04,148
three to one ratio.

302
00:21:04,208 --> 00:21:13,768
If you can do three hours of driving for
every hour that you take off, you're okay,

303
00:21:13,768 --> 00:21:14,478
I think.

304
00:21:14,478 --> 00:21:18,748
Anything less than that and you really do
start to run into issues.

305
00:21:18,948 --> 00:21:21,280
So, like I said, out of a...

306
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:26,960
10 hour trip if you have to stop for three
hours, that's pushing it, right?

307
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:31,940
If you only have to stop for about two to
two and a half hours, you may be okay.

308
00:21:32,140 --> 00:21:36,900
But I think even that standard has
changed, right?

309
00:21:36,900 --> 00:21:40,760
Just with recent EV developments, so.

310
00:21:41,876 --> 00:21:45,976
Yeah, and I'm kind of curious what you
would think.

311
00:21:46,456 --> 00:21:49,226
I think what you're saying totally makes
sense.

312
00:21:49,226 --> 00:21:51,396
And I know plenty of people.

313
00:21:51,396 --> 00:21:57,016
And in some ways, I think if level two
charging was even more prevalent, it

314
00:21:57,016 --> 00:21:58,836
wouldn't be such an issue.

315
00:21:58,836 --> 00:22:06,856
But what do you think in a like, look,
like, let's say, instead of buying the

316
00:22:06,856 --> 00:22:09,652
bolt back in 2016, this was today.

317
00:22:09,652 --> 00:22:16,092
And you were kind of in the same position
of going from a plugin hybrid to an EV.

318
00:22:16,092 --> 00:22:23,912
What would you say is kind of the
acceptable road tripping, charging time

319
00:22:23,912 --> 00:22:25,132
and speed ideally?

320
00:22:25,132 --> 00:22:32,472
Cause I know we probably disagree on this
and I, I don't, I totally understand how

321
00:22:32,472 --> 00:22:34,042
it works and how some people had it.

322
00:22:34,042 --> 00:22:38,100
And I've done road trips when it's my wife
and I with the dogs.

323
00:22:38,100 --> 00:22:42,920
and it's not as big of an issue because
they need to have breaks and stuff.

324
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:49,180
But even then, like still to this day, my
bare minimum like speed has to be, and

325
00:22:49,180 --> 00:22:53,120
like even then when I've done some of
these longer road trips around like 800 to

326
00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:57,996
a thousand miles, I even think a Model Y
is like too slow.

327
00:22:58,816 --> 00:23:05,836
See, and that's interesting to me because
I did at least have a chance to review the

328
00:23:05,836 --> 00:23:08,536
Kia EV6.

329
00:23:08,696 --> 00:23:15,356
And in my experience, and I mean maybe
part of that is framing coming from the

330
00:23:15,356 --> 00:23:20,356
Bolt EV, but in my experience that was too
fast.

331
00:23:20,356 --> 00:23:23,552
And so when I say that...

332
00:23:23,552 --> 00:23:29,692
You know, I did the thousand kilometer
challenge, the Bjorn Neeland, just to kind

333
00:23:29,692 --> 00:23:35,692
of run it through the chops, see if I ran
into any issues with the EV6.

334
00:23:36,232 --> 00:23:42,372
And I spent a grand total, I think, of 45
minutes charging.

335
00:23:42,752 --> 00:23:47,272
So, and part of that, the trip took
longer, mostly because of traffic, but I

336
00:23:47,272 --> 00:23:51,812
was still able to average, I think, about
70 miles an hour driving speed.

337
00:23:51,812 --> 00:23:53,120
So I wasn't...

338
00:23:53,120 --> 00:23:54,680
dilly -dallying, right?

339
00:23:54,680 --> 00:24:01,720
So 70 miles an hour, and I think I spent a
total of 45 minutes charging, and I only

340
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:06,180
got to use a 350 kilowatt charger one
time.

341
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:12,400
So basically, had I been able to access a
350 kilowatt charger at each and every one

342
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:18,180
of those stops, it would have been 35
minutes of total time stopped out of like

343
00:24:18,180 --> 00:24:19,900
10 hours of driving.

344
00:24:19,900 --> 00:24:21,088
To me,

345
00:24:21,088 --> 00:24:29,588
That's way outside the realm of reason
because I literally had to rush back from

346
00:24:29,588 --> 00:24:36,688
a pickup order place to get back to my car
because I was already at like 85 %

347
00:24:36,688 --> 00:24:37,728
battery.

348
00:24:37,728 --> 00:24:40,228
And I'm like, I can't just sit around.

349
00:24:40,228 --> 00:24:43,108
I barely even got my food.

350
00:24:43,108 --> 00:24:49,108
I was barely able to use, one time I
literally had to leave without having used

351
00:24:49,108 --> 00:24:50,176
the bathroom.

352
00:24:50,176 --> 00:24:55,996
because the car was done charging before I
could get past the line to get into the

353
00:24:55,996 --> 00:24:57,016
bathroom.

354
00:24:57,076 --> 00:25:01,336
So at that point, it makes for an
uncomfortable trip, right?

355
00:25:01,336 --> 00:25:08,336
When your car is outpacing you and you
feel this obligation to leave before it's

356
00:25:08,336 --> 00:25:11,216
done charging, to me, that's excessive.

357
00:25:11,216 --> 00:25:15,996
But to your point, some people might feel
like that's exactly what they want.

358
00:25:15,996 --> 00:25:17,472
They want a...

359
00:25:17,472 --> 00:25:23,092
10 minute, no more stop and be able to get
back on the road again for two to three

360
00:25:23,092 --> 00:25:24,672
hours of driving.

361
00:25:25,332 --> 00:25:29,992
And to me, I think that's pushing the
envelope of what's necessary, though it

362
00:25:29,992 --> 00:25:32,272
does satisfy a need.

363
00:25:33,052 --> 00:25:39,072
For me personally, I actually think that
sort of 2C charging rate that we're seeing

364
00:25:39,072 --> 00:25:41,592
right now is about right.

365
00:25:41,592 --> 00:25:46,752
The class of EVs that can go from zero
-ish

366
00:25:46,752 --> 00:25:51,052
0 % to 80 % in about 30 minutes.

367
00:25:51,052 --> 00:25:54,432
To me right now, that's the kind of
Goldilocks zone.

368
00:25:54,432 --> 00:25:59,812
Because we have a bunch of EVs that are
like 45 minutes to an hour to charge to

369
00:25:59,812 --> 00:26:00,732
80%.

370
00:26:00,732 --> 00:26:05,732
And we have a bunch of EVs right now that
are 15 to 20 minutes to charge to 80%.

371
00:26:05,732 --> 00:26:13,652
I think that 30 to 35 minutes to go from 0
% to 80 % is about that Goldilocks zone

372
00:26:13,652 --> 00:26:16,194
that I personally would prefer.

373
00:26:16,256 --> 00:26:19,896
but I recognize that it also might not be
fast enough for some people.

374
00:26:21,332 --> 00:26:27,692
I totally get that perspective of road
tripping.

375
00:26:27,692 --> 00:26:29,512
And I know plenty of people like that.

376
00:26:29,512 --> 00:26:37,212
But I always just like, I would rather
have the car ready for me before I am.

377
00:26:37,212 --> 00:26:41,632
And I think in some ways, that's also why
more level two is good.

378
00:26:41,632 --> 00:26:47,232
Because if you know you're going to be
somewhere for a while or something, then

379
00:26:47,232 --> 00:26:48,752
yeah, you can just kind of plug it into
that.

380
00:26:48,752 --> 00:26:49,108
And.

381
00:26:49,108 --> 00:26:52,648
If anything, I sometimes like to even see
a higher amperage level too.

382
00:26:52,648 --> 00:26:58,988
But, and like I said, if it's just myself,
that, excuse me, that's when I by far

383
00:26:58,988 --> 00:27:02,628
known or like noticed like, okay, I'm
waiting.

384
00:27:02,968 --> 00:27:08,978
And that does, and I kind of go back and
forth.

385
00:27:08,978 --> 00:27:13,148
Like if you're only going a few hundred
miles, yeah, maybe you only have to charge

386
00:27:13,148 --> 00:27:15,892
once or twice and both should be pretty
quick ones.

387
00:27:15,892 --> 00:27:19,851
Especially where you're going has charging
and you can just plug it in overnight.

388
00:27:19,851 --> 00:27:23,192
But yeah, it's like, once you start
getting into like the 800 to 1000 plus

389
00:27:23,192 --> 00:27:30,012
mile day trips, that's where it's like by
the end of the day, you're like, okay, I'm

390
00:27:30,012 --> 00:27:36,392
tired of like, having to, I try to do like
just, more frequent stops, but shorter,

391
00:27:36,392 --> 00:27:39,362
like just use the bathroom break, go in.

392
00:27:39,672 --> 00:27:42,322
and from here to Phoenix.

393
00:27:42,388 --> 00:27:46,476
from Bend Oregon to Phoenix, I think I did
it in...

394
00:27:48,372 --> 00:27:52,212
I want to say eight, but I'm pretty sure
it was nine stops.

395
00:27:52,432 --> 00:27:56,512
I think the reason I say eight, because
one of those was like, I just had to go to

396
00:27:56,512 --> 00:27:57,002
the bathroom again.

397
00:27:57,002 --> 00:28:01,372
I'd probably had too much coffee by that
point, but each of those were like

398
00:28:01,372 --> 00:28:05,992
literally try and get the battery as low
as possible, plug it in to get that max

399
00:28:05,992 --> 00:28:10,952
charge, run in, get a coffee or water, use
the bathroom and then try and be on the

400
00:28:10,952 --> 00:28:12,552
road for at least another.

401
00:28:12,552 --> 00:28:16,212
I think that's where I've struggled is
like, it's usually at that point, even for

402
00:28:16,212 --> 00:28:18,420
like a 10 to 15 minutes stop, it's like.

403
00:28:18,420 --> 00:28:23,640
year on the road for probably an hour and
a half to hour 45.

404
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:29,840
And I think it would just be nicer to see
like more of those charging cars in that

405
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,310
higher peak rate or at least hold the
curve longer.

406
00:28:32,310 --> 00:28:37,120
So you're in the car for two to two and a
half hours per charge.

407
00:28:37,312 --> 00:28:42,552
Right, and that's where I kind of see like
maybe there's a difference in personal

408
00:28:42,552 --> 00:28:50,112
philosophy or whatever because to me,
rather than making a 15 minute, two 15

409
00:28:50,112 --> 00:28:55,632
minute or two 10 minute stops and driving
for three hours to four hours, I would

410
00:28:55,632 --> 00:29:00,232
rather make one 30 minute stop and then
drive for three hours.

411
00:29:00,312 --> 00:29:06,136
And that's where I think the designs of
the EVs kind of are...

412
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:10,400
are diverging, I would say, because we
really do have two different strategies

413
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:15,860
that we're seeing at in play right now,
where you have sort of the Tesla Lucid

414
00:29:15,860 --> 00:29:21,340
model, where it's a super high peak and
then a very rapid taper.

415
00:29:21,340 --> 00:29:28,240
So you're really incentivized to leave
that charger no more than 50%, maybe 60 %

416
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:29,400
battery.

417
00:29:29,700 --> 00:29:34,560
That adds the number of stops that you
have to make, but it reduces the amount of

418
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:36,288
time spent charging.

419
00:29:36,288 --> 00:29:41,948
Whereas the other philosophy that we're
seeing is sort of the EGMP philosophy or

420
00:29:41,948 --> 00:29:48,468
the we're seeing it from Porsche and at a
slightly lower rate but a similar

421
00:29:48,468 --> 00:29:53,288
breakdown would be someone like GM with
their Ultium where it's not quite the same

422
00:29:53,288 --> 00:29:59,008
high average power that you're seeing from
Porsche and Hyundai and Kia but it's the

423
00:29:59,008 --> 00:30:03,848
same sort of the charging profile design
philosophy, right?

424
00:30:03,848 --> 00:30:04,512
Where you're...

425
00:30:04,512 --> 00:30:09,312
You're charging at a higher rate for
longer, so you're incentivized to stay

426
00:30:09,312 --> 00:30:10,172
longer.

427
00:30:10,172 --> 00:30:14,412
But then when you get on the road, you're
on the road for longer, so you make fewer

428
00:30:14,412 --> 00:30:15,392
stops.

429
00:30:15,392 --> 00:30:20,952
So I feel like as long as people are kind
of like, that's the barrier, right?

430
00:30:20,952 --> 00:30:26,132
If we're promoting EVs that we need to get
to people who are considering an EV is

431
00:30:26,132 --> 00:30:32,788
what is your travel philosophy and which
car works the best for that?

432
00:30:32,788 --> 00:30:33,708
Right.

433
00:30:33,856 --> 00:30:40,536
Because yeah, the splash and dash is fine
for probably three or four automakers at

434
00:30:40,536 --> 00:30:41,236
most.

435
00:30:41,236 --> 00:30:47,076
And then the rest of them, you're going to
be wanting to stop for 30 minutes to 40

436
00:30:47,076 --> 00:30:51,316
minutes, but you're going to be on the
road for longer periods of time between

437
00:30:51,316 --> 00:30:52,496
stops.

438
00:30:53,696 --> 00:30:58,436
So I think that's the difference that I
see.

439
00:30:58,436 --> 00:30:58,648
Yeah.

440
00:30:58,648 --> 00:31:04,228
like I said, when it's not me and it's
like, I'm with my wife and dogs, it's

441
00:31:04,228 --> 00:31:05,448
better.

442
00:31:06,968 --> 00:31:12,548
and we usually stay a little bit longer at
spots, but, yeah, right now I'm all about

443
00:31:12,548 --> 00:31:15,428
the Porsche charge profile.

444
00:31:15,428 --> 00:31:20,108
Unfortunately, the Porsche price comes
along with that, but that has kind of been

445
00:31:20,108 --> 00:31:25,364
one of the areas where I've been, like I
think that's also been a.

446
00:31:25,364 --> 00:31:30,804
Part of the reason I've been pretty
disappointed with both Ford and GM's

447
00:31:30,804 --> 00:31:36,364
offerings because the charge rate kind of
like looking at a C level, it just hasn't

448
00:31:36,364 --> 00:31:38,414
been that strong.

449
00:31:38,584 --> 00:31:41,524
and I guess I think it actually even add
Rivian to that.

450
00:31:41,974 --> 00:31:45,024
and the reason I look at those is like,
sure.

451
00:31:45,024 --> 00:31:50,844
Let's use GM share the Silverado and the
Hummer EV, like do like three 80, but when

452
00:31:50,844 --> 00:31:54,144
you have a pack that's like 200, it's
like, yeah, I want to be doing 600 or

453
00:31:54,144 --> 00:31:55,532
something like that.

454
00:31:57,152 --> 00:31:58,862
and there's an argument that's a whole
different thing.

455
00:31:58,862 --> 00:32:02,352
And there's an argument to be made like,
okay, are you even saving money or are you

456
00:32:02,352 --> 00:32:04,852
even spending more than you would be in
diesel or something at that point?

457
00:32:04,852 --> 00:32:09,792
That's a whole nother kind of conundrum,
but like even, like with the Rivian, which

458
00:32:09,792 --> 00:32:12,912
is also obviously a much more expensive
product.

459
00:32:13,222 --> 00:32:16,092
but even like the four lightning, they
both are vehicles with really large

460
00:32:16,092 --> 00:32:18,512
batteries and,

461
00:32:19,636 --> 00:32:23,896
even though the Ford holds it, it just
seems like it should be able to hold at

462
00:32:23,896 --> 00:32:26,416
least closer to 200 longer.

463
00:32:26,416 --> 00:32:30,876
Just because it's also just kind of shown
to be a great vehicle, but not really the

464
00:32:30,876 --> 00:32:33,696
best road tripper if you have to stop more
than once.

465
00:32:33,696 --> 00:32:39,976
Yeah, I mean, and I'm probably going to
offend some lightning owners when I say

466
00:32:39,976 --> 00:32:46,726
this, but I'm sure you probably saw that
race down, was it I -95, I think it was,

467
00:32:46,726 --> 00:32:50,676
with the two lightnings, one using the
supercharger, one using Electrify America

468
00:32:50,676 --> 00:32:52,496
with Tom Malogny.

469
00:32:53,036 --> 00:32:57,476
They made that trip in about the same
amount of time that it would have taken me

470
00:32:57,476 --> 00:32:59,156
in my Bolt EV.

471
00:32:59,676 --> 00:33:01,156
So...

472
00:33:01,344 --> 00:33:05,524
You know, not to offend some lightning
owners out there, but it's just a matter

473
00:33:05,524 --> 00:33:09,484
of efficiency relative to your charging
speed, right?

474
00:33:10,084 --> 00:33:17,104
But I was going to say too, that's why
part of, I think, the deviation in the

475
00:33:17,104 --> 00:33:22,124
different philosophies about travel and
charging speed also come from looking at

476
00:33:22,124 --> 00:33:25,164
peak versus looking at average, right?

477
00:33:25,164 --> 00:33:29,424
So if you actually break down that
average,

478
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:34,740
You could use the GMC Hummer EV or the
Silverado EV as an example.

479
00:33:34,740 --> 00:33:37,080
So 200 kilowatt hour pack.

480
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:43,040
But if you look at their average charging
rate to 80%, they're averaging about 250

481
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:44,060
kilowatt.

482
00:33:44,060 --> 00:33:51,900
So that's more than 50 % faster than what
the Cybertruck is averaging to 80%.

483
00:33:51,900 --> 00:33:56,691
Now you could say, well, the battery is
almost 100 % bigger.

484
00:33:56,691 --> 00:33:57,724
Right.

485
00:33:57,724 --> 00:34:01,204
deviation in the averages actually aren't
that big, right?

486
00:34:01,204 --> 00:34:08,544
You're looking at maybe a 10 to 15 %
advantage in charging speed based on a C

487
00:34:08,544 --> 00:34:11,144
rate for the Cybertruck.

488
00:34:11,144 --> 00:34:12,803
But that's when you look at average.

489
00:34:12,803 --> 00:34:19,384
But if you look at peak, you say, well,
123 kilowatt hour pack, peaking at 330,

490
00:34:19,604 --> 00:34:21,764
that's impressive.

491
00:34:21,764 --> 00:34:25,524
So that's why I said, but it's how much
you hold it.

492
00:34:25,524 --> 00:34:25,900
And...

493
00:34:25,900 --> 00:34:26,452
sure.

494
00:34:26,452 --> 00:34:31,492
point, if you're driving a Tesla and you
don't charge past 50%, your average

495
00:34:31,492 --> 00:34:33,572
charging rate is over 200 kilowatt.

496
00:34:33,572 --> 00:34:37,912
Now all of a sudden, the difference is
much smaller and it's like, well, now

497
00:34:37,912 --> 00:34:42,732
you're leaning into, I think, the
strengths of the car.

498
00:34:43,352 --> 00:34:48,152
And the concern that I have though is how
many average consumers want to do that

499
00:34:48,152 --> 00:34:53,712
versus do what they want to do or make the
car do what they want to do.

500
00:34:53,712 --> 00:34:54,656
And so that's...

501
00:34:54,656 --> 00:34:59,216
That's I think the real issue with EV
adoption right now is one, there's sort of

502
00:34:59,216 --> 00:35:02,376
ignorance about how each different
platform functions.

503
00:35:02,376 --> 00:35:09,796
And then there are sort of invalid
expectations because of that ignorance.

504
00:35:09,796 --> 00:35:14,376
And you see it all the time from
journalists who slam EVs because they,

505
00:35:14,376 --> 00:35:17,656
yeah, they get into a Rivian or a
Lightning and they're like, I'm gonna

506
00:35:17,656 --> 00:35:21,416
drive like a gas powered F -150.

507
00:35:21,416 --> 00:35:22,962
No, you're not.

508
00:35:23,136 --> 00:35:27,195
but you went in with that expectation, so
anything shorter than that is gonna seem

509
00:35:27,195 --> 00:35:28,756
like a failure.

510
00:35:29,076 --> 00:35:30,144
And, you know.

511
00:35:30,144 --> 00:35:34,084
continuously disappointed with the vast
majority of automotive journalism just

512
00:35:34,084 --> 00:35:39,224
because it's still so common to see
someone use kilowatt hour when they meant

513
00:35:39,224 --> 00:35:41,144
kilowatt and vice versa.

514
00:35:41,144 --> 00:35:45,584
And it doesn't seem like it's a big thing,
or I don't know if they just don't care

515
00:35:45,584 --> 00:35:50,172
that much about electric vehicles, but
it's like, it to me is just kind of.

516
00:35:51,156 --> 00:35:57,216
at best sad and at worst kind of like
against what their journalistic integrity

517
00:35:57,216 --> 00:36:01,396
should be to like know what their job is
and realize that it's a different car and

518
00:36:01,396 --> 00:36:03,236
it's a different beast altogether.

519
00:36:03,256 --> 00:36:06,756
And kind of having it's one thing to know
about the overhead cams on a V12 and

520
00:36:06,756 --> 00:36:11,556
that's great and all on a multimillion
dollar car, but you should also be just as

521
00:36:11,556 --> 00:36:16,716
into it for the IONIQ five or something
that has a, and I totally agree with you

522
00:36:16,716 --> 00:36:18,132
on the peak versus.

523
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:19,500
cause I totally agree.

524
00:36:19,500 --> 00:36:23,640
I would settle for a lower peak rate if it
held it longer.

525
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,640
but the same, right.

526
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:29,920
But it was.

527
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:32,776
flat to 85 % is like, done.

528
00:36:32,776 --> 00:36:35,536
problem then is, I think if you're going
to do that, you have to be a really

529
00:36:35,536 --> 00:36:36,226
efficient vehicle.

530
00:36:36,226 --> 00:36:40,336
That was the e -tron's kind of failure was
it just, unfortunately, wasn't efficient.

531
00:36:40,615 --> 00:36:44,116
So you kind of, yes, I do.

532
00:36:44,116 --> 00:36:51,156
I guess that's where I'm kind of like, I
feel like we just haven't seen, we've seen

533
00:36:51,156 --> 00:36:54,430
new entrants, but we haven't really seen
new.

534
00:36:55,444 --> 00:36:58,284
I feel like for a long time there, there
was pretty big improvements like every

535
00:36:58,284 --> 00:36:58,824
other year.

536
00:36:58,824 --> 00:37:02,084
And now I kind of feel like it has
stagnated a little bit.

537
00:37:02,084 --> 00:37:07,484
And the most recent vehicles that I've
been like, okay, that's cool.

538
00:37:07,484 --> 00:37:12,304
Are the Porsches, but obviously that comes
at a pretty big price.

539
00:37:12,304 --> 00:37:15,244
And at the same time, they're not making
their own batteries.

540
00:37:15,244 --> 00:37:16,924
They're getting them from a supplier.

541
00:37:16,924 --> 00:37:20,684
And even the Porsche engineers admit that
they're pushing it, but they're keeping it

542
00:37:20,684 --> 00:37:24,364
within what the specifics of the cells
are.

543
00:37:24,436 --> 00:37:29,416
And so outside of better thermal
regulation, I don't understand why we're

544
00:37:29,416 --> 00:37:33,136
not seeing that from more vehicle makers
or more competitive.

545
00:37:33,136 --> 00:37:39,916
I think there's been some with the high
end IKEA group, but my pushback there is.

546
00:37:40,256 --> 00:37:41,136
And hopefully this is changing.

547
00:37:41,136 --> 00:37:44,096
I think this may have changed with some of
the newer vehicles is just some of the

548
00:37:44,096 --> 00:37:45,816
issues that they've had in cold weather.

549
00:37:45,816 --> 00:37:52,628
And also just it still isn't terribly
consistent to find.

550
00:37:52,628 --> 00:37:57,688
Well, obviously, because of their voltage
structure, that also has a lot of

551
00:37:57,688 --> 00:38:01,792
interoperability issues with finding the
right chargers that can max that out.

552
00:38:01,792 --> 00:38:07,392
Well, but I mean, I would say that that's
not as big of an issue in North America

553
00:38:07,392 --> 00:38:13,032
because Tesla is really the holdout in
terms of 800 volt.

554
00:38:13,872 --> 00:38:19,872
Because within the North American charging
infrastructure anyway, if it's faster than

555
00:38:19,872 --> 00:38:24,292
100 kilowatt, it's 800 volt.

556
00:38:24,292 --> 00:38:28,256
So that's one of those benefits that
the...

557
00:38:28,256 --> 00:38:32,016
that the EGMP vehicles do, they do benefit
from that.

558
00:38:32,016 --> 00:38:32,168
So.

559
00:38:32,168 --> 00:38:36,648
I see I'd push back on that actually,
because part of the issue, I don't run,

560
00:38:36,648 --> 00:38:38,268
I'm all for 800 volt architecture.

561
00:38:38,268 --> 00:38:40,848
And obviously that's what like the Tycon
has.

562
00:38:40,848 --> 00:38:44,668
And then the Macan is really bizarre
because it's technically like 600 volt,

563
00:38:44,668 --> 00:38:47,448
but since it's more than 400, they just
called 800.

564
00:38:47,548 --> 00:38:51,468
The difference is, is the actual charging
infrastructure.

565
00:38:51,688 --> 00:38:55,548
So many of them are actually, cause it's
based on electrical equipment.

566
00:38:55,548 --> 00:38:56,988
That's why we have 400 volt.

567
00:38:56,988 --> 00:38:58,298
That's why we have 800 volt.

568
00:38:58,298 --> 00:39:01,780
It's based on traditional electrical
infrastructure.

569
00:39:01,780 --> 00:39:05,920
And then the systems have kind of been
more or less backwards designed to meet

570
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,060
those kind of supply chains.

571
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:12,120
And that I think actually is one of the
big reasons Lucid's had so many issues is

572
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,640
they decide they kind of did the right
thing, but they decide to go with this

573
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:23,860
really high voltage, very specific, pretty
rare supply chain and like, EV support

574
00:39:23,860 --> 00:39:27,080
infrastructure and charging infrastructure
that can support that.

575
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:31,284
And while I think obviously a higher
voltage and like 800 volt.

576
00:39:31,284 --> 00:39:34,824
whatever you want to call it, design is
going to be the future.

577
00:39:34,824 --> 00:39:39,644
Still so many of the charging
infrastructure we have is based on more or

578
00:39:39,644 --> 00:39:41,624
less a 400 volt technology.

579
00:39:41,624 --> 00:39:46,304
There's some of the ones that EA and
others have brought that are higher

580
00:39:46,304 --> 00:39:47,884
voltage and offer that.

581
00:39:47,884 --> 00:39:51,504
And to some extent, that's part of the
reason we've seen some of them have issues

582
00:39:51,504 --> 00:39:54,224
is just around not having the right
course.

583
00:39:54,224 --> 00:39:55,508
Like, I mean.

584
00:39:55,508 --> 00:39:58,748
That's changing a little bit, but that's
obviously where you kind of got the thing

585
00:39:58,748 --> 00:40:02,168
called the signet surge and all these kind
of fun issues that some of these higher

586
00:40:02,168 --> 00:40:05,868
voltage charges were just running into not
being able to kind of continuously support

587
00:40:05,868 --> 00:40:06,648
those.

588
00:40:06,648 --> 00:40:11,228
And I think that is a growing pain and
will change longer term.

589
00:40:11,228 --> 00:40:17,188
But in the short term, like I kind of it's
unfortunate, but I understand why like

590
00:40:17,188 --> 00:40:20,884
Mercedes and so many of these other EV
makers stayed with 400 volt.

591
00:40:20,884 --> 00:40:24,544
Not only is there the supply chain for it,
but I think traditionally there's just

592
00:40:24,544 --> 00:40:30,444
been a much more consistent charging
experience in much more different

593
00:40:30,444 --> 00:40:35,144
inclement weathers than if you go with
like the full 800 volt and you have to BC

594
00:40:35,144 --> 00:40:36,520
charge regularly.

595
00:40:36,736 --> 00:40:42,216
Well, and see, that's why I said I would
say, based on my experience, that the

596
00:40:42,216 --> 00:40:45,375
current is the bigger issue than the
voltage.

597
00:40:46,436 --> 00:40:53,976
And this is something that I'm currently
investigating right now because my Bolt EV

598
00:40:53,976 --> 00:40:56,516
isn't letting me do it directly.

599
00:40:56,856 --> 00:41:01,876
But it appears that EVgo does have an
issue with their Delta chargers, where

600
00:41:01,876 --> 00:41:06,648
they are not combining power the way that
they're supposed to.

601
00:41:06,688 --> 00:41:14,928
And so they're offering 500 amps no
problem, but they're not bridging so when

602
00:41:14,928 --> 00:41:20,268
you come in with a GMC Hummer EV you come
in with a Chevy Silverado EV and you

603
00:41:20,268 --> 00:41:24,088
expect three 500 amps at 700 volts.

604
00:41:24,088 --> 00:41:27,668
It's not bridging It's just giving you 500
amps.

605
00:41:27,668 --> 00:41:32,818
So at that point in time, you're basically
charging at Rivian speeds, right?

606
00:41:32,818 --> 00:41:35,296
You're charging at the 500 amp

607
00:41:35,296 --> 00:41:39,016
400 volt architecture speeds.

608
00:41:39,016 --> 00:41:42,776
And that's not how those chargers are
designed to work.

609
00:41:43,276 --> 00:41:47,856
And now I don't know if you've heard the
same thing, but I was chatting with a

610
00:41:47,856 --> 00:41:51,415
certified technician for Electrify
America.

611
00:41:51,415 --> 00:41:55,356
And he was telling me that that signet
surge is a completely different issue.

612
00:41:55,356 --> 00:41:57,616
It has nothing to do with the 800 volt.

613
00:41:57,616 --> 00:42:01,740
It has to do with the fact that their
power modules are flaky.

614
00:42:01,792 --> 00:42:08,652
And so what you're seeing is a lot of
power module failures in the BTC power

615
00:42:08,652 --> 00:42:10,472
units and in the CigNet units.

616
00:42:10,472 --> 00:42:17,152
And it's causing surges because you have
these 50 -ish kilowatt power modules that

617
00:42:17,152 --> 00:42:20,512
will just suddenly cycle on and suddenly
cycle off and suddenly cycle on and

618
00:42:20,512 --> 00:42:21,282
suddenly cycle off.

619
00:42:21,282 --> 00:42:25,892
And it's not really the voltage of the
architecture, because that's the thing is

620
00:42:25,892 --> 00:42:29,632
literally every single Electrify America
site.

621
00:42:29,632 --> 00:42:34,952
that's in and this has been true since
2018 is 800 volt.

622
00:42:34,952 --> 00:42:36,092
All of them.

623
00:42:36,092 --> 00:42:40,392
Like the 150 kilowatt, the 350 kilowatt
chargers are all 800 volts.

624
00:42:40,392 --> 00:42:43,912
They had a handful of 50 kilowatt chargers
that they abandoned.

625
00:42:43,912 --> 00:42:49,432
But if you look at the placards at every
public charger basically that's faster

626
00:42:49,432 --> 00:42:58,232
than 100 kilowatt, that's gone in in the
last 10 years, it's the 920 plus volt

627
00:42:58,232 --> 00:42:59,112
rating.

628
00:42:59,112 --> 00:42:59,960
So,

629
00:43:00,096 --> 00:43:00,676
I don't know.

630
00:43:00,676 --> 00:43:06,356
I see it as being ubiquitous and the
holdup is really that 500 amp where a lot

631
00:43:06,356 --> 00:43:11,176
of vehicles are demanding it and a lot of
chargers aren't able to accommodate it.

632
00:43:11,176 --> 00:43:16,476
And if they are, they're not able to
accommodate it like consistently.

633
00:43:16,476 --> 00:43:22,056
And that was really the benefit that I saw
from the EV6 is there's a four minute

634
00:43:22,056 --> 00:43:27,496
difference, literally a four minute
difference charging to 80 % using 150

635
00:43:27,496 --> 00:43:29,280
kilowatt charger versus

636
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:34,240
a 350 kilowatt charger because they aren't
anywhere close to maxing out the amps.

637
00:43:34,240 --> 00:43:39,800
It's like 350 amps or whatever, but
they're pulling in 750, 800 volts.

638
00:43:40,260 --> 00:43:44,960
And so here you plug into 150 kilowatt
charger and you look at the display and it

639
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:48,140
says 170 plus kilowatt and it's like,
what?

640
00:43:48,260 --> 00:43:54,440
Yeah, because you're going way over the
placard rating because the charger was

641
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:57,152
rated based on a combination of

642
00:43:57,152 --> 00:44:03,532
volts and amps and you're just sneaking in
where the current is lower but you're

643
00:44:03,532 --> 00:44:07,532
peaking the voltage higher so you're
seeing a higher than rated speed on those

644
00:44:07,532 --> 00:44:08,572
chargers.

645
00:44:08,812 --> 00:44:10,892
So yeah, I don't know.

646
00:44:10,892 --> 00:44:12,982
I see a lot of the issues that you're
talking about.

647
00:44:12,982 --> 00:44:17,072
Like I said, I noted that one with EVgo
where I'm doing a little bit more

648
00:44:17,072 --> 00:44:20,912
investigating because they're building
these chargers based on GM funding.

649
00:44:20,912 --> 00:44:27,040
They really do need to be supporting that
350 kilowatt plus charging.

650
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,940
of these GMEVs.

651
00:44:29,940 --> 00:44:32,170
So hopefully they're taking care of that
internally.

652
00:44:32,170 --> 00:44:34,840
I just haven't heard anything about it.

653
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:41,480
And then of course, Electrify America,
it's a grab.

654
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:44,830
Life is like a box of Electrify America
charging sites.

655
00:44:44,830 --> 00:44:47,500
You just never know what you're gonna get
when you show up.

656
00:44:47,500 --> 00:44:52,660
And sometimes everything is 100 % perfect
and sometimes they're flaky.

657
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:56,220
I think, did you comment you had watched
that Jordan,

658
00:44:56,704 --> 00:44:59,504
out of spec Cybertruck through Wyoming.

659
00:44:59,504 --> 00:45:00,924
So that was exactly it.

660
00:45:00,924 --> 00:45:04,944
His experience with Electrify America is
what I would expect.

661
00:45:04,944 --> 00:45:08,764
You go to one charger and it's kind of
peaking, kind of dropping, kind of doing

662
00:45:08,764 --> 00:45:09,284
weird things.

663
00:45:09,284 --> 00:45:13,724
So the power you pull into the next stall,
300 kilowatt, no problem.

664
00:45:13,724 --> 00:45:17,984
You go to the next site, plug in 300
kilowatt, no problem.

665
00:45:17,984 --> 00:45:24,644
I did that exact drive a little over a
year ago and I had through, I think maybe

666
00:45:24,644 --> 00:45:28,524
all of Wyoming where I was driving, it was
all V2 superchargers.

667
00:45:28,524 --> 00:45:32,084
So I was like, you know what, I'm gonna
give the Electrify America ones a try.

668
00:45:32,084 --> 00:45:36,244
And one of them I stopped at, I'm trying
to remember where the town was, but it

669
00:45:36,244 --> 00:45:40,104
took me probably 10 minutes to get the app
thing to work because of cell connection.

670
00:45:40,104 --> 00:45:45,004
And then I plugged it in, I was like,
cool, it's doing...

671
00:45:45,076 --> 00:45:47,106
I guess I think it was doing something to
200.

672
00:45:47,106 --> 00:45:48,076
So I was like, fine, whatever.

673
00:45:48,076 --> 00:45:48,576
I'm happy.

674
00:45:48,576 --> 00:45:52,616
I run in to go to the bathroom and then I
get a notification on my phone that like

675
00:45:52,616 --> 00:45:53,596
your charging has stopped.

676
00:45:53,596 --> 00:45:55,056
I was like, that's not good.

677
00:45:55,056 --> 00:45:58,416
And then I go out there and try and plug
it back in.

678
00:45:58,416 --> 00:46:01,535
And it would only, it said, do you rate it
or what?

679
00:46:01,535 --> 00:46:04,356
I forgot what the thing had said, but it
was essentially the sign saying it was

680
00:46:04,356 --> 00:46:04,756
derating.

681
00:46:04,756 --> 00:46:07,052
It wouldn't go above 50 kilowatts.

682
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:07,728
Yeah.

683
00:46:07,728 --> 00:46:10,128
so at that point I was like, you know
what, screw this.

684
00:46:10,368 --> 00:46:14,948
And, by the time I'd last in between
setting it up and then having to go back

685
00:46:14,948 --> 00:46:18,168
out, I was just like, I might as well just
been on the one 50 and I ended up just

686
00:46:18,168 --> 00:46:18,858
driving over there.

687
00:46:18,858 --> 00:46:21,468
Cause at that point I had to, because it
was down to 50.

688
00:46:21,468 --> 00:46:25,268
So it was great to see that those have
clearly been updated and he had a much

689
00:46:25,268 --> 00:46:30,268
more, consistent and better experience in
the, taking the cyber truck through that.

690
00:46:30,268 --> 00:46:35,488
But it was just those things that, and I
recently had a really bad experience and I

691
00:46:35,488 --> 00:46:36,788
think I kind of.

692
00:46:36,788 --> 00:46:41,848
you watch the recent podcast with Steve
Burkett and Walter, where I've just gone

693
00:46:41,848 --> 00:46:46,408
like having all these apps, having it like
it should just be swipe my card and go.

694
00:46:47,068 --> 00:46:52,598
if, if there's a savings because I go
through the app, great, but, there's no,

695
00:46:52,598 --> 00:46:54,808
like this kind of goes back to my big
thing too.

696
00:46:54,808 --> 00:47:01,728
Like that extra five to 10 minutes is such
a time waste when you're doing a road trip

697
00:47:01,728 --> 00:47:03,660
and you're trying to like get.

698
00:47:03,700 --> 00:47:07,220
If you're going to have to charge more,
like just the plugin go for so many.

699
00:47:07,220 --> 00:47:11,460
And I think obviously I'm kind of coming
from it from a perspective, like I'm

700
00:47:11,460 --> 00:47:13,600
trying to get places, try and move as fast
as possible.

701
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:18,760
But then also just from like, you look at
so many technology disruptions, like for

702
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:21,340
something to take off and it has, it
doesn't have to be just as good.

703
00:47:21,340 --> 00:47:22,180
It has to be better.

704
00:47:22,180 --> 00:47:26,760
And so to me, like plug and charge
experience is better than even a gas

705
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:27,860
station where you have to swipe.

706
00:47:27,860 --> 00:47:30,860
All you have to do is plug in and walk
away and it works.

707
00:47:31,444 --> 00:47:34,384
Obviously you have to kind of set it up
that first time, but since then I haven't

708
00:47:34,384 --> 00:47:35,784
had to touch it.

709
00:47:35,784 --> 00:47:41,020
And that's the kind of thing that I think
for most users is what would be expected.

710
00:47:41,056 --> 00:47:43,796
Well, and you know, that is kind of
interesting because that's the

711
00:47:43,796 --> 00:47:47,886
counterpoint for a gas station is you want
to get a discount at a gas station.

712
00:47:47,886 --> 00:47:48,896
You don't need the app.

713
00:47:48,896 --> 00:47:51,656
You just need to walk in with cash in your
hand.

714
00:47:51,656 --> 00:47:52,036
Right.

715
00:47:52,036 --> 00:47:56,856
So there is an additional hoop a lot of
times and you get your 10 % or whatever,

716
00:47:56,856 --> 00:48:00,136
five cents a gallon discount by paying
with cash.

717
00:48:00,136 --> 00:48:05,036
But, but hey, it's inconvenient, but some
people think it's worth it.

718
00:48:05,056 --> 00:48:10,196
I'm, I'm one of those weirdo EV owners who
still thinks that RFIDs are perfectly

719
00:48:10,196 --> 00:48:11,060
fine.

720
00:48:11,168 --> 00:48:17,288
You know, because you, yeah, because you
just have to, like, you're gonna have to

721
00:48:17,288 --> 00:48:22,428
grab the, well, yeah, but you have to grab
the cord anyway, so you're gonna be at the

722
00:48:22,428 --> 00:48:22,848
dispenser.

723
00:48:22,848 --> 00:48:26,628
That's what I think a lot of people miss,
is you're already there, right?

724
00:48:26,628 --> 00:48:29,948
So just swipe your card and then go.

725
00:48:30,208 --> 00:48:31,324
But it doesn't.

726
00:48:31,324 --> 00:48:32,714
what do you mean about the RFID thing?

727
00:48:32,714 --> 00:48:38,024
Cause I remember with all of those, I had
to, if it was like to get the savings, I

728
00:48:38,024 --> 00:48:42,444
at least with blink, I think I had to
already have ordered it and then have it

729
00:48:42,444 --> 00:48:43,524
with me when charging.

730
00:48:43,524 --> 00:48:46,104
And so one, like the first time I went to
go use it, I didn't have it.

731
00:48:46,104 --> 00:48:49,424
So I had to use their QR code, go through
the whole process to order it.

732
00:48:49,424 --> 00:48:51,824
And then like two weeks later I have it.

733
00:48:51,824 --> 00:48:53,344
So I left in my car, I've never used it
again.

734
00:48:53,344 --> 00:48:56,000
And that like, to me, that's a terrible
experience.

735
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:58,890
Yeah, that is, well, you said the bad
word.

736
00:48:58,890 --> 00:49:00,300
You said blink.

737
00:49:01,100 --> 00:49:06,680
Blink is actually the reason I completely
gave up on public charging with my Volt.

738
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:14,710
Like that blink experience in the 2012,
2013, 2014, I was like, I'm this company,

739
00:49:14,710 --> 00:49:16,320
I'm just never working with them.

740
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:16,600
Right?

741
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:19,280
Like it was a terrible experience.

742
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:26,080
When I got both my Volt and my Bolt, it
came with a ChargePoint RFID card.

743
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:28,380
I still have it, it still works.

744
00:49:28,380 --> 00:49:35,370
I ordered an EVgo RFID with my membership
a month or two before I got my Bolt EV,

745
00:49:35,370 --> 00:49:39,160
came in the mail, and I'm still using it
today.

746
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:43,460
Like, well, I'm not, now I have plug -in
charge with EVgo, but I mean, it still

747
00:49:43,460 --> 00:49:43,840
works.

748
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:51,340
I validated that my RFID still works, but
it doesn't break that model of membership.

749
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:55,968
And that's the issue that I see is...

750
00:49:55,968 --> 00:50:04,728
For mainstream EV adoption, I don't know
that the membership model is going to work

751
00:50:04,728 --> 00:50:13,128
because I truly believe that a majority of
future EV owners are only going to charge

752
00:50:13,128 --> 00:50:19,208
publicly occasionally and it's not going
to be at the same network.

753
00:50:19,208 --> 00:50:24,864
So if you make a thousand mile trip and
you make three or four stops,

754
00:50:24,864 --> 00:50:29,844
and each one of those stops is at a
different charging provider, you're not

755
00:50:29,844 --> 00:50:31,634
going to want three or four memberships.

756
00:50:31,634 --> 00:50:35,054
It just doesn't, like it literally doesn't
make sense.

757
00:50:35,202 --> 00:50:37,452
And when you're doing like a large road
trip, you could be going through

758
00:50:37,452 --> 00:50:42,492
different, even when I've driven, gas
vehicles, it's like, I'm in Nebraska.

759
00:50:42,492 --> 00:50:43,732
So there's a bunch of Mavericks.

760
00:50:43,732 --> 00:50:48,972
Well out West there's no Mavericks and
stuff like that, where it's just having to

761
00:50:48,972 --> 00:50:51,792
download all this crap that doesn't work
on my phone.

762
00:50:51,792 --> 00:50:52,952
They have to get my data.

763
00:50:52,952 --> 00:50:55,462
And then I'm sorry, I'm going to go on a
little bit of a rant.

764
00:50:55,462 --> 00:51:00,962
The fact that I have to download this
crap, it's a terrible user experience and.

765
00:51:01,258 --> 00:51:05,068
multiple times I've had to re put in my
credit card info and then something

766
00:51:05,068 --> 00:51:08,808
doesn't work because of XYZ and the
silicon actions we can, it's just like,

767
00:51:08,808 --> 00:51:11,368
why does that vending machine work over
there?

768
00:51:11,368 --> 00:51:15,368
And I can swipe my card and I can't get
the stupid thing to work.

769
00:51:15,718 --> 00:51:19,128
that's the kind of crap that just like,
that's exactly why people aren't going to

770
00:51:19,128 --> 00:51:19,848
go to EVs.

771
00:51:19,848 --> 00:51:25,508
And that's why I'm like, I'm always
inherently frustrated by like an app first

772
00:51:25,508 --> 00:51:28,068
experience, like give me the option.

773
00:51:28,068 --> 00:51:30,168
Don't make it a requirement.

774
00:51:30,366 --> 00:51:30,860
and, and -

775
00:51:30,860 --> 00:51:34,960
if that's an RFID or whatever, like any of
those things, those are great perks to

776
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:35,760
have.

777
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:39,744
But to me, it's just such a bad
experience.

778
00:51:39,744 --> 00:51:42,914
Well, and believe it or not, even Tesla
isn't immune to this.

779
00:51:42,914 --> 00:51:45,914
And we're going to see in a few months,
right?

780
00:51:46,363 --> 00:51:54,004
Because with GM getting access to the
superchargers, the timeframe I've heard

781
00:51:54,004 --> 00:51:58,064
most recently is summer, right?

782
00:51:58,064 --> 00:52:06,264
But GM has this weird issue where the Bolt
EV was designed pre -ISO 15118.

783
00:52:06,344 --> 00:52:09,536
So it doesn't have it.

784
00:52:09,536 --> 00:52:14,456
All of the Altium has it natively as part
of the CCS -1 standard.

785
00:52:14,695 --> 00:52:22,036
Well, Tesla opening the superchargers,
their plug -in charge now for the CCS,

786
00:52:22,336 --> 00:52:29,856
Nax, J3400, whatever you want to call it,
that is based on the ISO 15118.

787
00:52:29,856 --> 00:52:36,176
So no matter what, Bolt EV owners are
still going to have to use an app to

788
00:52:36,176 --> 00:52:37,636
activate a supercharger.

789
00:52:37,636 --> 00:52:38,816
And to your point,

790
00:52:38,816 --> 00:52:43,916
That was a frustration when I used
MagicDock is I went ahead, I was a good

791
00:52:43,916 --> 00:52:44,856
little EV owner.

792
00:52:44,856 --> 00:52:47,396
I went and put all my payment information
ahead of time.

793
00:52:47,396 --> 00:52:49,236
I knew I was gonna stop there.

794
00:52:49,236 --> 00:52:52,696
And by the time I got there to the
charger, they said, we've lost your

795
00:52:52,696 --> 00:52:53,776
payment information.

796
00:52:53,776 --> 00:52:55,576
Do you mind putting it in again?

797
00:52:55,576 --> 00:52:59,436
So it was another two to three minute
process while I'm standing at the

798
00:52:59,436 --> 00:53:04,236
supercharger, putting in my payment
information just so it would work again,

799
00:53:04,236 --> 00:53:04,776
right?

800
00:53:04,776 --> 00:53:08,480
And so, and again, that's not Tesla's
fault.

801
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:13,080
it's having an app first access fault,
right?

802
00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:17,420
Like anytime you have that app, that's
kind of why I said if I'm gonna have a

803
00:53:17,420 --> 00:53:21,600
membership, I don't mind an RFID card,
because at least my phone doesn't need to

804
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:22,540
be powered up.

805
00:53:22,540 --> 00:53:25,520
At least I don't have to have cell phone
connection.

806
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:30,380
I could be in the middle of nowhere and I
swipe that RFID card as long as that

807
00:53:30,380 --> 00:53:33,500
charger's connected in some way, it's
good.

808
00:53:33,500 --> 00:53:34,600
So.

809
00:53:34,848 --> 00:53:38,248
So I agree with you, like if you're going
to have a membership, it should be plug

810
00:53:38,248 --> 00:53:39,308
and charge.

811
00:53:39,308 --> 00:53:42,808
And if you're not going to have a
membership, you should have credit card

812
00:53:42,808 --> 00:53:43,708
payment.

813
00:53:43,708 --> 00:53:48,928
They're ready to go that works as
conveniently and consistently as a vending

814
00:53:48,928 --> 00:53:49,408
machine.

815
00:53:49,408 --> 00:53:51,228
It has to happen.

816
00:53:51,228 --> 00:53:51,380
So.

817
00:53:51,380 --> 00:53:51,830
For sure.

818
00:53:51,830 --> 00:53:57,640
And I think that's why I'm hoping to see
more of these kind of V4 stalls and stuff

819
00:53:57,640 --> 00:53:57,820
they do.

820
00:53:57,820 --> 00:54:03,460
I know a couple of the ones they're doing
not close to me, but ones I would use on a

821
00:54:03,460 --> 00:54:06,400
fairly frequent basis are the V4 ones.

822
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:12,180
One just opened in Weed, so I didn't have
a chance to check it out when I was

823
00:54:12,180 --> 00:54:17,220
looking at the Pilot Flying J up there in
Weed, but I was talking to this, it's the

824
00:54:17,220 --> 00:54:20,320
same installation crew put in both of
them.

825
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:24,120
Now the V4 in Weed has already been
powered up.

826
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:29,220
That's a discussion maybe for another day
because apparently the EVgo site had its

827
00:54:29,220 --> 00:54:34,440
power drop already in place and the
utility still hasn't put it in, so I don't

828
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:35,700
know what's going on there.

829
00:54:35,700 --> 00:54:36,998
Interesting.

830
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:45,120
when I look in the app, that V4 in Weed is
not open outside of Tesla's native

831
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:46,000
network.

832
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:49,060
So Ford, Rivian, and Tesla owners only.

833
00:54:49,060 --> 00:54:53,580
So even though it's the V4 dispensers,
it's still closed off.

834
00:54:53,580 --> 00:54:58,700
So I would have went up there to test them
out, but right now it's not even looking

835
00:54:58,700 --> 00:55:00,860
like it's accessible yet.

836
00:55:00,860 --> 00:55:01,334
So...

837
00:55:01,334 --> 00:55:01,544
Yeah.

838
00:55:01,544 --> 00:55:07,464
And I know they've been slowly rolling out
more and more here and there into the ones

839
00:55:07,464 --> 00:55:08,164
that are available.

840
00:55:08,164 --> 00:55:12,564
But yeah, there's one in Chamult, Oregon,
which is really in the middle of nowhere

841
00:55:12,664 --> 00:55:16,844
off of 97 that I'm pretty excited for
because coincidentally, I mean, the

842
00:55:16,844 --> 00:55:23,064
interesting thing I had was the recent
trip I took, I stayed at a hotel and the

843
00:55:23,064 --> 00:55:27,040
hotel had six Rivian Adventure Network DC
fast charters.

844
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:27,632
Okay.

845
00:55:27,632 --> 00:55:31,372
there in the parking lot and obviously I
can use them and I think the whole time I

846
00:55:31,372 --> 00:55:36,272
was there I saw one Rivian and I was just
like if this was here I would not have to

847
00:55:36,272 --> 00:55:42,022
charge my whole trip but now I have to and
so there was a Not really to complain.

848
00:55:42,022 --> 00:55:46,112
There was a Tesla went about ten minutes
north and I five that I ended up going to

849
00:55:46,112 --> 00:55:52,132
anyway but I decided to try out the EVCS
one that was a few blocks away and just

850
00:55:52,132 --> 00:55:54,388
had like the

851
00:55:54,388 --> 00:55:57,038
Purely epitome of a horrible experience.

852
00:55:57,038 --> 00:56:02,588
Just everything failed it had the ticket
the card reader and clearly it didn't work

853
00:56:02,588 --> 00:56:07,948
And then yeah, I just eventually because
it was charting like 45 kilowatts that was

854
00:56:07,948 --> 00:56:09,368
just like screwed I'm tired.

855
00:56:09,368 --> 00:56:11,728
I'm getting out of here and went to the
other one.

856
00:56:11,728 --> 00:56:12,088
Unfortunately.

857
00:56:12,088 --> 00:56:13,198
I didn't really need the charge.

858
00:56:13,198 --> 00:56:19,808
It was just like, you know what this would
be Beneficial I mean I didn't need the

859
00:56:19,808 --> 00:56:22,220
charge because I could just drive the ten
minutes anyway

860
00:56:22,228 --> 00:56:25,612
but it would just be maybe convenient and
it just.

861
00:56:27,188 --> 00:56:32,648
frustrating to see how much money has been
invested in that network, at least from

862
00:56:32,648 --> 00:56:36,999
the state of Oregon and just kind of still
see the state that it's in, unfortunately.

863
00:56:36,999 --> 00:56:43,319
Well, and yeah, it's amazing to me that
we're still seeing state funding going

864
00:56:43,319 --> 00:56:46,599
toward 50 kilowatt chargers on
interstates.

865
00:56:46,599 --> 00:56:50,169
You know, I'm not one to complain about 50
kilowatt chargers.

866
00:56:50,169 --> 00:56:56,099
I think they have their place, but an
interstate stop is not one of them, right?

867
00:56:56,099 --> 00:57:01,199
If you want to put them in a town center,
you know, like a parking garage.

868
00:57:01,259 --> 00:57:02,609
Now we're talking.

869
00:57:02,609 --> 00:57:03,729
Yeah, 50 kilowatt.

870
00:57:03,729 --> 00:57:05,101
That's fine.

871
00:57:05,376 --> 00:57:11,736
You put them on an interstate or a highway
even, and it's really, and we've talked

872
00:57:11,736 --> 00:57:12,106
about this.

873
00:57:12,106 --> 00:57:16,016
I haven't had a chance to actually use
EVCS yet.

874
00:57:17,116 --> 00:57:24,396
EVCS, yeah, well, and I mean, maybe I
should because I seem to be winning the

875
00:57:24,396 --> 00:57:26,776
lottery whenever I stop at these public
chargers.

876
00:57:26,776 --> 00:57:32,736
Like EV Gateway was another one where they
put a charger in and reading three of the

877
00:57:32,736 --> 00:57:34,400
units were down.

878
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:40,120
I just happened to pull into the one that
was up and working and I put in my credit

879
00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:42,060
card and it just happened to work.

880
00:57:42,060 --> 00:57:44,500
I was like, okay, there you go.

881
00:57:44,500 --> 00:57:50,379
I just pulled the slot machine and got
some change out of it.

882
00:57:50,379 --> 00:57:53,718
So maybe I should try my luck with EVCS.

883
00:57:54,324 --> 00:57:56,224
I wish you the best of luck in it.

884
00:57:56,224 --> 00:58:02,024
I know that they had said back in like, I
want to say 23, maybe it was even 22, that

885
00:58:02,024 --> 00:58:07,824
the terminals were going to get a update
so that you could use the card payment

886
00:58:07,824 --> 00:58:08,144
reader.

887
00:58:08,144 --> 00:58:12,264
And clearly they haven't, which was one
area that was very frustrating.

888
00:58:12,264 --> 00:58:17,044
And then two, they have two apps in the
app store still, and you have to download

889
00:58:17,044 --> 00:58:18,584
EVCS new.

890
00:58:18,584 --> 00:58:22,644
And so my phone had EVCS, the original
one.

891
00:58:23,188 --> 00:58:23,598
I don't know.

892
00:58:23,598 --> 00:58:27,968
There's just so many of these things that
I'm just like, I don't know, having a bit

893
00:58:27,968 --> 00:58:30,028
of a background in that space.

894
00:58:30,148 --> 00:58:37,868
And I just like how, how, how is this
maybe in 2012, maybe in 2014, I'll give

895
00:58:37,868 --> 00:58:41,388
you this, but like now like it, cause I
mean, yeah, talking about the blink days

896
00:58:41,388 --> 00:58:43,548
and driving an EV back in like 2012.

897
00:58:43,548 --> 00:58:43,898
Yeah.

898
00:58:43,898 --> 00:58:46,638
I, it sucked, but I was like, yeah, this
is kind of fun.

899
00:58:46,638 --> 00:58:47,348
It's the wild west.

900
00:58:47,348 --> 00:58:48,128
Anything goes.

901
00:58:48,128 --> 00:58:50,880
And just, if it worked, I was happy.

902
00:58:51,104 --> 00:58:52,536
Well, and that's that.

903
00:58:52,572 --> 00:58:55,492
nowadays, it's like after a decade of kind
of dealing with that crap, I'm like, no,

904
00:58:55,492 --> 00:58:57,672
it needs to work the first time it needs
to work right.

905
00:58:57,672 --> 00:58:59,922
And I want to get 5 ,000 kilowatts.

906
00:58:59,922 --> 00:59:02,012
I don't care how I just want.

907
00:59:02,012 --> 00:59:02,748
Yeah.

908
00:59:02,784 --> 00:59:05,064
Well, and that's that chasm, right?

909
00:59:05,064 --> 00:59:09,644
Like early adopters, you could say, hey,
we're willing to put up with some growing

910
00:59:09,644 --> 00:59:09,974
pains.

911
00:59:09,974 --> 00:59:12,534
Same thing with the bolt EV charging rate,
right?

912
00:59:12,534 --> 00:59:16,284
You want to, you know, you're willing to
put up with a little bit as an early

913
00:59:16,284 --> 00:59:17,204
adopter.

914
00:59:17,204 --> 00:59:23,204
Breaking down to that early majority for
adoption of EVs really means that you

915
00:59:23,204 --> 00:59:24,844
can't have a lot of these problems.

916
00:59:24,844 --> 00:59:29,204
Or if you do, they need to be the
exception, not the norm.

917
00:59:29,204 --> 00:59:29,620
So.

918
00:59:29,620 --> 00:59:34,900
And like, let's say even in today that
they still made the bull, you can still

919
00:59:34,900 --> 00:59:35,740
sell those.

920
00:59:35,740 --> 00:59:39,080
It would just be like, it's around town,
second car government.

921
00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:41,280
I mean, there's a huge market for that.

922
00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:46,280
And I think in some ways they didn't kind
of niche it down as much as they should

923
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:48,740
have near the end of their sales.

924
00:59:48,740 --> 00:59:53,920
And I don't know, that's, that was one, I
was like,

925
00:59:53,940 --> 00:59:57,820
There's obviously people like yourself who
can use as a primary, but there's still a

926
00:59:57,820 --> 01:00:02,620
huge market for it as a like second car or
around town car, whatever you want it to

927
01:00:02,620 --> 01:00:06,432
be that I just don't think they ever fully
embraced enough.

928
01:00:06,432 --> 01:00:11,232
Yeah, well, I think the unfortunate part
is they wanted it to be their rideshare

929
01:00:11,232 --> 01:00:12,492
fleet car.

930
01:00:12,492 --> 01:00:17,372
And it's really not appropriate as a
rideshare fleet car.

931
01:00:17,372 --> 01:00:21,472
That's where I would say it's probably at
its weakest.

932
01:00:23,072 --> 01:00:28,692
But for personal users, like I said, I
know a lot of bolt EV owners, a lot of EV

933
01:00:28,692 --> 01:00:33,912
owners who have more than 200 miles of
base range who never charge away from

934
01:00:33,912 --> 01:00:34,552
home.

935
01:00:34,552 --> 01:00:35,060
Like...

936
01:00:35,060 --> 01:00:35,664
Right.

937
01:00:35,664 --> 01:00:39,476
have a free charging on Electrify America
and then they sit there all day.

938
01:00:39,476 --> 01:00:43,076
Yeah, and that's a whole nother problem.

939
01:00:43,576 --> 01:00:48,896
The free charging thing, I kind of get why
they did it just to kind of like Tesla did

940
01:00:48,896 --> 01:00:49,836
offer it a long time ago.

941
01:00:49,836 --> 01:00:52,680
And I think when these.

942
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:55,560
that was an extra cost.

943
01:00:56,400 --> 01:01:01,520
Even when Tesla did that, there was an
extra cost involved.

944
01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:06,000
They said up front, you're paying a little
bit extra because you're paying for the

945
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:07,080
superchargers.

946
01:01:07,080 --> 01:01:11,020
You're not paying when you use them, but
you're paying to help build out the

947
01:01:11,020 --> 01:01:12,140
network.

948
01:01:13,180 --> 01:01:14,648
They didn't, they...

949
01:01:14,648 --> 01:01:20,128
for the Model S when we bought it as a
work vehicle, like it was the Delta in how

950
01:01:20,128 --> 01:01:26,788
much one, how many miles we put on that
car and to like to a competitive product.

951
01:01:27,328 --> 01:01:31,648
I think today, I think today you could say
that back then that was there wasn't a

952
01:01:31,648 --> 01:01:32,088
Delta.

953
01:01:32,088 --> 01:01:33,328
It's like, okay, I'm paying 5%.

954
01:01:33,328 --> 01:01:37,008
I'm paying 2500 bucks more back then in
like 2013.

955
01:01:37,008 --> 01:01:38,732
I'm buying an EV.

956
01:01:38,740 --> 01:01:40,480
that can go a couple hundred miles.

957
01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:42,390
And then it turned out a kid fast charge.

958
01:01:42,390 --> 01:01:43,920
We didn't even know that back then.

959
01:01:43,920 --> 01:01:47,220
I mean, they even discontinued the one
that couldn't.

960
01:01:47,220 --> 01:01:47,439
Right.

961
01:01:47,439 --> 01:01:50,660
You know, like early on, like six months
in, they're like, we're not going to sell

962
01:01:50,660 --> 01:01:51,090
this one.

963
01:01:51,090 --> 01:01:53,340
It's DC fast charging or nothing.

964
01:01:53,340 --> 01:01:53,510
Right.

965
01:01:53,510 --> 01:01:54,520
So.

966
01:01:54,520 --> 01:01:55,160
But.

967
01:01:55,160 --> 01:02:03,710
mean, I kind of get that, but right, I
think that that has kind of turned around,

968
01:02:03,710 --> 01:02:09,960
but it just has usually been a bane of
existence for other EV drivers and kind of

969
01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:11,020
what we're talking about.

970
01:02:11,020 --> 01:02:12,620
And I don't know.

971
01:02:12,660 --> 01:02:13,152
It.

972
01:02:13,152 --> 01:02:19,632
I'm just saying like it's free charging
completely opposed to it, but I also see

973
01:02:19,632 --> 01:02:22,032
the perception of fairness is different.

974
01:02:22,032 --> 01:02:26,892
Where Tesla said we're baking it into the
cost of the car that you are paying for.

975
01:02:26,892 --> 01:02:32,292
Whereas other companies are saying you're
getting free charging thanks to a two

976
01:02:32,292 --> 01:02:35,992
billion dollar judgment against our parent
company.

977
01:02:36,352 --> 01:02:41,888
And that's a very it's a when it comes to
fairness, it's a very different it's a.

978
01:02:41,888 --> 01:02:43,284
a different outlook.

979
01:02:43,284 --> 01:02:47,904
Well, and that is kind of one of the
interesting things to kind of go a little

980
01:02:47,904 --> 01:02:50,344
bit back to what you're talking about
around supercharging the plugin charge

981
01:02:50,344 --> 01:02:55,964
thing that I think I guess unintentionally
kind of goes back to the example of what I

982
01:02:55,964 --> 01:02:59,044
think would be the ideal app thing is with
like the Tesla thing.

983
01:02:59,044 --> 01:03:03,854
You can use their app if you sign up for
their monthly.

984
01:03:03,854 --> 01:03:08,664
So I think you pay like 10 to 15 bucks and
then your per kilowatt hour charge rate

985
01:03:08,664 --> 01:03:13,032
goes way down or it becomes the same as a
Tesla drivers.

986
01:03:13,044 --> 01:03:16,784
And that kind of like, like I said, that
makes sense.

987
01:03:16,784 --> 01:03:19,844
Like the inconvenience to like have an app
and do all that stuff.

988
01:03:19,844 --> 01:03:22,804
If I'm going to save a bit of money,
especially if I did consistently, I got

989
01:03:22,804 --> 01:03:22,994
it.

990
01:03:22,994 --> 01:03:23,804
I'm in.

991
01:03:25,204 --> 01:03:32,284
but this whole, like, like essentially the
EVCS experience I just had, I'm just like,

992
01:03:32,284 --> 01:03:34,120
no, this, this isn't going to work.

993
01:03:34,120 --> 01:03:37,700
so here's the thing though, that that 13
you're talking.

994
01:03:38,340 --> 01:03:43,880
Right, but but yeah, you're talking about
the $13 for the Tesla thing, right?

995
01:03:43,980 --> 01:03:48,660
Yeah, but that's a one time setup, so I
wouldn't be able to take advantage of it

996
01:03:48,660 --> 01:03:50,390
in the Bolt TV specifically.

997
01:03:50,390 --> 01:03:58,720
But if you got a Blazer or an Equinox or a
Lyric, right, those have ISO 15118.

998
01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:01,360
So once you set up that $13.

999
01:04:01,728 --> 01:04:07,488
In theory, like when Tesla finally opens
it up for GM, you just plug in.

1000
01:04:07,488 --> 01:04:11,728
Ford is running into issues, the same
issues that they had with Electrify

1001
01:04:11,728 --> 01:04:16,688
America, where you have two competing apps
fighting over who's gonna, they're

1002
01:04:16,688 --> 01:04:19,628
fighting over the bill is essentially what
it is.

1003
01:04:19,628 --> 01:04:23,136
And it's the Ford owners who are getting
like.

1004
01:04:23,136 --> 01:04:26,766
screwed up by it because it's all I wanted
to do plug -in charge.

1005
01:04:26,766 --> 01:04:28,286
Well, no, you have to use the Ford app.

1006
01:04:28,286 --> 01:04:29,586
Well, I wanted to use the Ford app.

1007
01:04:29,586 --> 01:04:31,476
No, you have to do it.

1008
01:04:31,476 --> 01:04:33,296
You don't get the pricing.

1009
01:04:33,296 --> 01:04:38,176
So that's a kind of a double screw up, I
think, on Ford and Tesla's part.

1010
01:04:38,176 --> 01:04:39,756
At least they have access.

1011
01:04:39,756 --> 01:04:48,156
But in theory, some of the other the other
automakers who get that ISO 15118, you

1012
01:04:48,156 --> 01:04:52,384
know, automatic plug -in charge, it should
just.

1013
01:04:52,384 --> 01:04:58,484
pay your $13, get your discounted rate,
your monthly Tesla membership rate, and

1014
01:04:58,484 --> 01:05:00,234
you should still be able to use plug -in
charge.

1015
01:05:00,234 --> 01:05:04,884
It should recognize your vehicle
automatically when you plug it in and bill

1016
01:05:04,884 --> 01:05:05,964
you accordingly.

1017
01:05:05,964 --> 01:05:06,616
So.

1018
01:05:06,676 --> 01:05:10,216
Well, yeah, and I think there was, you're
right, there was kind of like the Ford

1019
01:05:10,216 --> 01:05:13,132
Pass versus the Tesla and I...

1020
01:05:15,060 --> 01:05:18,900
I think the way you sum it up is pretty
accurate.

1021
01:05:18,900 --> 01:05:23,440
And from what I understand, the second
part is like the data consumption from

1022
01:05:23,440 --> 01:05:28,760
either of those apps that was a big reason
that FordPass was trying to push back on

1023
01:05:28,760 --> 01:05:31,520
that, which I kind of get.

1024
01:05:31,520 --> 01:05:35,140
But like you said, it makes it a worse
experience.

1025
01:05:35,920 --> 01:05:41,100
And I think most people wouldn't care if
it just worked.

1026
01:05:41,540 --> 01:05:44,224
They'd be willing to kind of give that up
since.

1027
01:05:44,404 --> 01:05:47,384
Most people do anyway, if they've got
Facebook and Instagram, whatever else on

1028
01:05:47,384 --> 01:05:48,724
their phone already.

1029
01:05:48,724 --> 01:05:54,804
And I totally, yeah, I think that was a
poor execution not to just kind of make

1030
01:05:54,804 --> 01:05:56,224
that a one and done thing.

1031
01:05:56,224 --> 01:05:58,724
And so I hope GM does do that.

1032
01:06:00,383 --> 01:06:05,864
Because yeah, I'm not sure if that's how
it is with Rivian that I don't think it

1033
01:06:05,864 --> 01:06:07,188
is, but I could be wrong.

1034
01:06:07,456 --> 01:06:12,156
Yeah, I haven't heard the issues from
Rivian owners that I've heard from Ford

1035
01:06:12,156 --> 01:06:12,936
owners.

1036
01:06:12,936 --> 01:06:17,116
So I think Rivian owners literally might
have paid their $13 membership and are

1037
01:06:17,116 --> 01:06:20,516
just happily plugging in, getting plug -in
charge and the reduced rate and they're

1038
01:06:20,516 --> 01:06:22,436
going on their merry way.

1039
01:06:22,816 --> 01:06:24,948
So, but.

1040
01:06:24,948 --> 01:06:26,378
know, I'm sorry.

1041
01:06:26,378 --> 01:06:27,948
Where were we going to say?

1042
01:06:28,112 --> 01:06:28,632
no, nothing.

1043
01:06:28,632 --> 01:06:29,510
Go ahead.

1044
01:06:29,864 --> 01:06:32,784
well, I, I realized we're also kind of
coming up on a little bit of the time, but

1045
01:06:32,784 --> 01:06:36,844
one, one of the things, I did want to
discuss with you, if you have a few more

1046
01:06:36,844 --> 01:06:42,844
minutes was in the plug and play EV
podcast that you were on yesterday, you

1047
01:06:42,844 --> 01:06:47,384
were talking about DC, DC fast charging
overbuilding.

1048
01:06:47,384 --> 01:06:51,864
And I kind of wanted to discuss that with
you because I think that might be an area

1049
01:06:51,864 --> 01:06:57,204
we disagree with, but I thought it was an
interesting, mindset or just kind of like

1050
01:06:57,204 --> 01:06:58,284
how you were.

1051
01:06:58,356 --> 01:06:58,976
Perceiving it.

1052
01:06:58,976 --> 01:07:05,176
So if you could kind of just give a quick
little overview of your thoughts on That I

1053
01:07:05,176 --> 01:07:06,524
think that might become interesting

1054
01:07:06,524 --> 01:07:11,024
well, yeah, and I mean, I guess I need to
start with saying I don't think we're

1055
01:07:11,024 --> 01:07:12,434
there yet, right?

1056
01:07:12,434 --> 01:07:21,224
I'm saying that I think we are at risk of
overfunding the public fast charging and

1057
01:07:21,224 --> 01:07:23,174
overbuilding it to the point.

1058
01:07:23,174 --> 01:07:29,344
And I mean, it's the walking definition of
like a first world problem, right?

1059
01:07:29,344 --> 01:07:32,104
no, we have too many fast chargers in
public.

1060
01:07:32,928 --> 01:07:36,508
But also it does risk stranded assets,
right?

1061
01:07:36,508 --> 01:07:40,967
You're talking about, it's a lot of
expensive equipment that you're talking

1062
01:07:40,967 --> 01:07:43,268
about putting into the ground.

1063
01:07:43,648 --> 01:07:49,328
And part of the problem too is, doesn't
necessarily mean it's equally distributed,

1064
01:07:49,328 --> 01:07:49,818
right?

1065
01:07:49,818 --> 01:07:57,348
We're seeing this in California too, where
CARB called out Electrify America because

1066
01:07:57,348 --> 01:08:01,588
all of their disadvantaged communities
that they're supporting just happened to

1067
01:08:01,588 --> 01:08:02,464
be on

1068
01:08:02,464 --> 01:08:04,004
interstates.

1069
01:08:04,004 --> 01:08:05,284
How convenient.

1070
01:08:05,284 --> 01:08:10,324
Yet half of the counties that qualify as
disadvantaged don't have a single

1071
01:08:10,324 --> 01:08:13,144
Electrify America charger in the entire
county.

1072
01:08:13,144 --> 01:08:14,544
That's a problem, right?

1073
01:08:14,544 --> 01:08:17,644
So there's that issue.

1074
01:08:17,644 --> 01:08:24,724
But yeah, I just think that we need to be
realistic about what the actual use cases

1075
01:08:24,724 --> 01:08:25,074
are.

1076
01:08:25,074 --> 01:08:30,432
Because on one hand, I see the early
adopters for electric vehicles,

1077
01:08:30,432 --> 01:08:32,132
tend to be more affluent.

1078
01:08:32,132 --> 01:08:35,892
They're the people who can afford to take
the risk on newer technology.

1079
01:08:35,892 --> 01:08:41,252
But those also happen to be the people
that both have the time and the economic

1080
01:08:41,252 --> 01:08:44,292
means to travel regularly, right?

1081
01:08:44,292 --> 01:08:46,212
They're not working full -time jobs.

1082
01:08:46,212 --> 01:08:51,622
They're not stuck at home, you know, a
majority of the time or at work or office.

1083
01:08:51,622 --> 01:08:55,552
They're able to take three -day, four
-day, five -day weekends and drive across

1084
01:08:55,552 --> 01:08:55,842
the country.

1085
01:08:55,842 --> 01:08:58,496
I don't know how many cyber truck owners
I've seen.

1086
01:08:58,496 --> 01:09:02,596
who have already driven back and forth
across the country multiple times, right?

1087
01:09:02,596 --> 01:09:08,696
So you buy a $120 ,000 truck, gee whiz,
you can afford to take two weeks off of

1088
01:09:08,696 --> 01:09:11,616
work and just drive around the country,
that's nice.

1089
01:09:12,036 --> 01:09:14,816
Most Americans aren't going to do that,
right?

1090
01:09:14,816 --> 01:09:22,936
So we're sort of front loading the demand
for the highest users in my estimation.

1091
01:09:22,936 --> 01:09:25,344
So we're already sort of getting a missed.

1092
01:09:25,344 --> 01:09:30,684
like a misconstrued notion of the demand
that we're going to see moving forward.

1093
01:09:30,684 --> 01:09:38,204
But also there are other factors in play,
including we're seeing an escalation in EV

1094
01:09:38,204 --> 01:09:38,784
range.

1095
01:09:38,784 --> 01:09:45,184
It's not quite Moore's law, but we're
seeing, you know, you go back 10 years ago

1096
01:09:45,184 --> 01:09:47,354
with the exception of Tesla, right?

1097
01:09:47,354 --> 01:09:51,624
You were lucky to find an EV that even had
a hundred miles of range.

1098
01:09:51,624 --> 01:09:52,864
Then, you know,

1099
01:09:52,864 --> 01:09:59,004
Five years ago, it was pretty easy to find
EVs with 200 miles of range.

1100
01:09:59,004 --> 01:10:03,694
Now it's pretty easy to find EVs with 300
miles of range.

1101
01:10:03,694 --> 01:10:09,224
And we know that this escalation is going
to continue because it's a selling point.

1102
01:10:09,284 --> 01:10:13,004
So we're going to get to a point where
you're looking at, you know, why doesn't

1103
01:10:13,004 --> 01:10:16,164
the Model 3 have 100 kilowatt hour battery
pack?

1104
01:10:16,164 --> 01:10:17,440
Why doesn't the...

1105
01:10:17,440 --> 01:10:20,140
the Model Y have 100 kilowatt hour battery
pack.

1106
01:10:20,140 --> 01:10:26,700
Now you're looking at a 400 to 450 mile EV
that makes 30 minute stops and then drives

1107
01:10:26,700 --> 01:10:28,660
for another four hours.

1108
01:10:29,100 --> 01:10:33,440
So, well, ask Elon, I'm sure.

1109
01:10:33,440 --> 01:10:35,920
Put it on X.

1110
01:10:37,140 --> 01:10:42,360
Right, so, and so that's going to reduce
the load on these.

1111
01:10:42,360 --> 01:10:45,440
And also, I should say, so we're seeing,

1112
01:10:45,440 --> 01:10:51,560
five to seven billion dollars just from
Nevi going into public charging.

1113
01:10:51,560 --> 01:10:57,840
But we're also seeing funding from GM,
Toyota, Stellantis, all of these other

1114
01:10:57,840 --> 01:10:59,240
automakers.

1115
01:10:59,280 --> 01:11:04,360
Mercedes is another big one because they
want this brand experience.

1116
01:11:04,360 --> 01:11:10,760
So once you get everybody just putting in
chargers willy -nilly, nobody's really

1117
01:11:10,760 --> 01:11:15,616
kind of doing any sort of accounting of
when have we done enough.

1118
01:11:15,616 --> 01:11:19,636
and you won't know until you've done way
too much.

1119
01:11:19,636 --> 01:11:25,076
And part of where I think people may be
misunderstood what I said is I'm also

1120
01:11:25,076 --> 01:11:28,756
counting Tesla superchargers in that.

1121
01:11:28,756 --> 01:11:33,376
How many times have you gone on a trip in
your Tesla and stopped at a supercharger

1122
01:11:33,376 --> 01:11:36,456
that was completely empty other than
yourself, right?

1123
01:11:36,456 --> 01:11:41,216
How many times have you gone, you know,
and how many times have you seen someone

1124
01:11:41,216 --> 01:11:44,608
using an Electrify America or EVgo
charger,

1125
01:11:44,608 --> 01:11:50,068
where there's a line and they look over at
a half full Tesla supercharger.

1126
01:11:50,068 --> 01:11:58,448
So even in these surges, right, we're
seeing extra capacity available.

1127
01:11:58,448 --> 01:12:04,328
So if we continue to build out at the rate
that we're building out, I do see that

1128
01:12:04,328 --> 01:12:05,368
potential.

1129
01:12:05,368 --> 01:12:12,480
And you had asked Steve and Walter, I
believe, and I don't know if they gave...

1130
01:12:12,480 --> 01:12:17,240
they might not have given you the answer
that you were asking for in terms of Nevi

1131
01:12:17,240 --> 01:12:20,620
sites, whether they're good enough, right?

1132
01:12:20,620 --> 01:12:23,390
I don't think that they are, right?

1133
01:12:23,390 --> 01:12:29,800
Like I don't think that 450 kilowatt
charging stalls is enough, but that's one

1134
01:12:29,800 --> 01:12:32,440
more escalation that we're going to see.

1135
01:12:32,440 --> 01:12:36,220
Right now, if you break down the
throughput of the superchargers, right?

1136
01:12:36,220 --> 01:12:41,024
The V3 superchargers are only 90 kilowatts
allocated per stall.

1137
01:12:41,024 --> 01:12:43,264
when the entire site is full.

1138
01:12:43,264 --> 01:12:46,544
V4 is going to double that, right?

1139
01:12:46,544 --> 01:12:51,744
A lot of these Electrify America,
ChargePoint, EVgo sites, their power

1140
01:12:51,744 --> 01:12:53,944
levels are being ramped up.

1141
01:12:53,944 --> 01:12:58,704
So when Walter was saying, hey, look,
you're gonna be spending way more time

1142
01:12:58,704 --> 01:13:01,964
than you would in a car, are you really?

1143
01:13:01,964 --> 01:13:07,884
Like when I travel a lot and when I stop
at places to plug in my Bolt EV, it is

1144
01:13:07,884 --> 01:13:09,376
very common.

1145
01:13:09,376 --> 01:13:13,756
that I look around the parking lot, see
all of the gas cars that are stopped at

1146
01:13:13,756 --> 01:13:18,416
the same location, the same Denny's,
Starbucks, whatever it happens to be, and

1147
01:13:18,416 --> 01:13:23,756
when I go to my car to unplug to leave 30
minutes later, a majority of those gas

1148
01:13:23,756 --> 01:13:27,096
cars are still where they were when I
arrived.

1149
01:13:27,096 --> 01:13:33,616
So I don't know that we're actually going
to see that same sort of level, right?

1150
01:13:33,616 --> 01:13:39,328
You miss all of the people who pull into a
gas station, fill up for five minutes.

1151
01:13:39,328 --> 01:13:43,788
and then pull into an empty stall because
someone was yelling at them over the PA to

1152
01:13:43,788 --> 01:13:45,408
move their car, right?

1153
01:13:45,408 --> 01:13:49,788
So we miss all of the times that people
are actually dwelling 15 to 20 to 30

1154
01:13:49,788 --> 01:13:53,368
minutes, even at a gas station or a travel
closet.

1155
01:13:53,368 --> 01:14:00,188
So I don't know that I buy the idea that
we're dwelling longer at these DC

1156
01:14:00,188 --> 01:14:03,248
chargers, especially at travel stops.

1157
01:14:03,248 --> 01:14:07,616
And that's the one area where I see us
needing

1158
01:14:07,616 --> 01:14:13,456
a one -to -one ratio of high -powered DC
charging stalls to gas pumps.

1159
01:14:13,456 --> 01:14:20,356
But if you run those numbers, the United
States only has 150 ,000 gas stations

1160
01:14:20,356 --> 01:14:27,256
around, only an average of six to eight
pumps per gas station, and yet they're

1161
01:14:27,256 --> 01:14:31,236
telling us we need millions of DC fast
chargers.

1162
01:14:31,736 --> 01:14:35,904
To me, something doesn't match up there,
and I think...

1163
01:14:35,904 --> 01:14:40,204
I think they're overestimating or maybe
they're estimating the need for DC fast

1164
01:14:40,204 --> 01:14:47,564
chargers based on 200 mile EVs that are
only able to go 100 miles between a

1165
01:14:47,564 --> 01:14:49,744
reasonable DC fast charging stop.

1166
01:14:49,744 --> 01:14:54,964
So they're making eight to 10 to 12 stops
on an 800, 900 mile trip.

1167
01:14:55,364 --> 01:15:00,444
Whereas in the future, I could see those
trips happening in, you know, three or

1168
01:15:00,444 --> 01:15:01,536
four stops.

1169
01:15:01,536 --> 01:15:07,416
Look at the Silverado EV, and that was the
3WT that they drove coast to coast, and

1170
01:15:07,416 --> 01:15:12,176
they made nine stops, nine stops to go 2
,400 miles.

1171
01:15:12,416 --> 01:15:15,370
So it's...

1172
01:15:15,684 --> 01:15:17,784
agree with you on that.

1173
01:15:18,764 --> 01:15:25,684
My biggest issue with that vehicle is we
just got to get better weight, more energy

1174
01:15:25,684 --> 01:15:29,644
dense batteries, which is coming along,
but that's yeah.

1175
01:15:29,644 --> 01:15:30,884
And the efficiency of it.

1176
01:15:30,884 --> 01:15:34,744
But the ironic thing is the efficiency
being bad with that makes it actually a

1177
01:15:34,744 --> 01:15:36,030
very capable.

1178
01:15:36,052 --> 01:15:44,192
towing EV just because of the aerodynamics
of it, which is always kind of the counter

1179
01:15:44,192 --> 01:15:45,742
-intuitive thing you would think.

1180
01:15:45,742 --> 01:15:51,632
But I agree with you that I think a lot of
the charges have probably been overly

1181
01:15:51,632 --> 01:15:56,892
funded into the detriment of rollout,
because it slows it down because a lot of

1182
01:15:56,892 --> 01:15:58,792
these are waiting for the money.

1183
01:15:58,792 --> 01:16:03,558
I also agree with the fact that there's

1184
01:16:04,724 --> 01:16:06,964
there's kind of a mindset around.

1185
01:16:07,224 --> 01:16:12,764
I think the number you say around the
millions to the 150 ,000 or where I think

1186
01:16:12,884 --> 01:16:14,744
that is also off.

1187
01:16:14,964 --> 01:16:20,124
but I do push back on the fact is there,
well, I do understand like, yeah,

1188
01:16:20,124 --> 01:16:21,604
sometimes I'll go to a super char.

1189
01:16:21,604 --> 01:16:24,544
I've gone to many super chargers,
especially on weekdays where I might be

1190
01:16:24,544 --> 01:16:28,984
the only one or there's one other person
there, but on a weekend or on a big

1191
01:16:28,984 --> 01:16:30,724
holiday weekend, it'll be full.

1192
01:16:30,724 --> 01:16:32,324
Sometimes there's even a weight.

1193
01:16:32,324 --> 01:16:33,716
Rarely there's a weight, but it'll be.

1194
01:16:33,716 --> 01:16:35,836
three quarters full pretty commonly.

1195
01:16:35,836 --> 01:16:39,996
And I do think it's very similar to a gas
station or gas.

1196
01:16:39,996 --> 01:16:42,906
There's, I can think of plenty of times
I've gone, I'm the only person there.

1197
01:16:42,906 --> 01:16:47,216
I fill up real quick and there's been
plenty of times too, where even in the

1198
01:16:47,216 --> 01:16:51,346
Tesla thing, when I'm going there, it's
saying like, there's like five open.

1199
01:16:51,346 --> 01:16:53,576
Well, I get there and there's only two or
three now.

1200
01:16:53,576 --> 01:16:55,736
So I definitely would push back.

1201
01:16:55,736 --> 01:17:01,652
I get that perception, but I think it's a
little bit more perception versus reality.

1202
01:17:01,652 --> 01:17:05,292
At the same time, I totally understand why
Tesla does want to open it up because

1203
01:17:05,292 --> 01:17:09,732
then, yeah, they can make even more money
given their volume and how many they have

1204
01:17:09,732 --> 01:17:12,732
of getting more throughput of vehicles
there, hopefully.

1205
01:17:12,892 --> 01:17:18,152
And I think one of the other things you
mentioned around overbuilding, especially

1206
01:17:18,152 --> 01:17:21,912
when you think of like lower income and
kind of like some of the metrics for some

1207
01:17:21,912 --> 01:17:26,992
of the builds is right now, hopefully this
will change, but it's just so hard and so

1208
01:17:26,992 --> 01:17:29,684
uncommon for level two to be part of.

1209
01:17:29,684 --> 01:17:33,244
multifamily or all these other housing
things that maybe you can get away with a

1210
01:17:33,244 --> 01:17:36,004
couple of cars, but especially once you
start getting like the apartment complex

1211
01:17:36,004 --> 01:17:41,144
side of stuff, they might, it's, it just
hasn't really been executed well at scale.

1212
01:17:41,144 --> 01:17:42,624
Hopefully that changes.

1213
01:17:42,624 --> 01:17:47,844
And so I think that that's where I'd push
back that like, I kind of get what you're

1214
01:17:47,844 --> 01:17:51,244
saying about like the millions are
probably too much, but I think we still

1215
01:17:51,244 --> 01:17:55,104
need to see a pretty big ramp to cover for
a lot of EV drivers that aren't driving

1216
01:17:55,104 --> 01:17:56,344
EVs yet.

1217
01:17:56,344 --> 01:17:58,124
And that,

1218
01:17:58,644 --> 01:18:02,644
But that also kind of goes back to the
inherent issue.

1219
01:18:02,644 --> 01:18:09,084
And I think why I don't really expect
there to be a good value proposition for a

1220
01:18:09,084 --> 01:18:15,284
lot of the other car automakers getting
into EV charging is that so much of the

1221
01:18:15,284 --> 01:18:21,264
costs and the ongoing upkeep is to make
pretty thin margins.

1222
01:18:21,264 --> 01:18:25,284
And that's why gas stations and like
Flying J and these, they don't make money

1223
01:18:25,284 --> 01:18:25,694
off gas.

1224
01:18:25,694 --> 01:18:27,540
They make money off upsells.

1225
01:18:27,540 --> 01:18:33,140
And so I see the big competitors and long
-term success for EV charging to be the

1226
01:18:33,140 --> 01:18:35,532
flying J's and pilots and stuff like that.

1227
01:18:35,807 --> 01:18:41,687
Yeah, well, and you know, just as an
anecdote, the longest that 500 mile

1228
01:18:41,687 --> 01:18:48,427
regular 500 mile trip that I do through
California took was a little over 15

1229
01:18:48,427 --> 01:18:49,547
hours.

1230
01:18:49,547 --> 01:18:55,487
That wasn't a WRX on Thanksgiving.

1231
01:18:56,047 --> 01:19:01,267
So just getting to a gas pump took 45
minutes.

1232
01:19:02,027 --> 01:19:04,280
So is...

1233
01:19:04,304 --> 01:19:05,056
too.

1234
01:19:05,056 --> 01:19:09,736
So that surge is true of both
infrastructures.

1235
01:19:09,796 --> 01:19:14,856
And that's why I'm saying we're not seeing
them building gas stations to support a

1236
01:19:14,856 --> 01:19:18,276
million person surge of I -5 on a single
weekend.

1237
01:19:18,276 --> 01:19:22,196
But the expectation is we're going to do
the same for EVs.

1238
01:19:22,196 --> 01:19:27,276
And that to me, I have to question whether
that's legitimate.

1239
01:19:27,816 --> 01:19:35,136
And I'll just close on this too, is as EV
advocates, we have to worry about

1240
01:19:35,136 --> 01:19:38,516
the funding and subsidies getting pulled
out from under us.

1241
01:19:38,516 --> 01:19:41,036
And I'm not talking about government
subsidies.

1242
01:19:41,036 --> 01:19:47,516
We sometimes overlook how private car
ownership has been subsidized by fossil

1243
01:19:47,516 --> 01:19:54,236
fuel industries because it's beneficial
for them if every American owns two and a

1244
01:19:54,236 --> 01:20:00,876
half cars with their white picket fence,
commutes everywhere, drives everywhere,

1245
01:20:00,876 --> 01:20:04,256
huge parking lots at retail centers.

1246
01:20:05,120 --> 01:20:12,680
That's all subsidized and when they're not
making money, that's gonna go away.

1247
01:20:12,840 --> 01:20:19,520
And so as EV owners, we also have to
recognize that the infrastructure that is

1248
01:20:19,520 --> 01:20:24,720
supporting our individual car ownership is
not necessarily going to continue to be

1249
01:20:24,720 --> 01:20:29,280
subsidized after those fossil fuel
companies are no longer making the

1250
01:20:29,280 --> 01:20:31,700
trillions of dollars that they're making.

1251
01:20:31,860 --> 01:20:32,012
So.

1252
01:20:32,012 --> 01:20:35,912
and for sure, I think that also kind of
goes to like the whole gas tax thing and

1253
01:20:35,912 --> 01:20:39,772
the infrastructure for the roads and how
do you augment that?

1254
01:20:39,772 --> 01:20:43,252
There's definitely some ways I like better
than others.

1255
01:20:43,932 --> 01:20:50,532
And I think one other thing kind of going
back, I think you're 100 % spot on.

1256
01:20:50,532 --> 01:20:53,732
And this is something I bring up to a lot
of people about waiting at the gas

1257
01:20:53,732 --> 01:20:55,892
stations for like 30 minutes.

1258
01:20:55,892 --> 01:20:58,700
And I've been guilty of doing it too in my
own cars, but.

1259
01:20:58,804 --> 01:21:05,783
I think one of the big opportunities is
with electrification is being smarter and

1260
01:21:05,984 --> 01:21:08,524
you're starting to see it from a little
bit.

1261
01:21:08,524 --> 01:21:09,924
And I don't want to be Mr.

1262
01:21:09,924 --> 01:21:13,284
Protests all the time, but one of my
favorite things is the fact that it says,

1263
01:21:13,284 --> 01:21:15,204
here are the super chargers.

1264
01:21:15,204 --> 01:21:16,314
Here's how many are available.

1265
01:21:16,314 --> 01:21:20,304
And now it even tells me how many people
are even being routed to the one I'm going

1266
01:21:20,304 --> 01:21:20,794
to.

1267
01:21:20,794 --> 01:21:25,384
And I think that that is a level of
incorporation, like talking about like

1268
01:21:25,384 --> 01:21:27,636
having plug in charge and your billing
where like,

1269
01:21:27,636 --> 01:21:31,576
route planning that figures out, okay,
you've got enough to go another five

1270
01:21:31,576 --> 01:21:32,556
miles.

1271
01:21:32,556 --> 01:21:35,936
Technically, maybe you won't be the
fastest charger, but Hey, you won't be

1272
01:21:35,936 --> 01:21:37,256
waiting in line for 20 minutes.

1273
01:21:37,256 --> 01:21:42,656
And so it's like finding, and that I think
that's kind of the software layer of,

1274
01:21:43,466 --> 01:21:49,796
figuring out like how to optimize everyone
that hasn't, that was never even an option

1275
01:21:49,796 --> 01:21:55,596
in the large and the combustion and gas
station model.

1276
01:21:55,956 --> 01:21:59,136
And that also kind of goes to where you
can be smarter about maybe not needing as

1277
01:21:59,136 --> 01:22:01,804
many stations and how to do that.

1278
01:22:01,888 --> 01:22:02,328
Right.

1279
01:22:02,328 --> 01:22:07,248
Well, and that's where Tesla definitely
deserves kudos is better than any other

1280
01:22:07,248 --> 01:22:08,828
car company.

1281
01:22:08,828 --> 01:22:14,388
They provided essentially guidance and
tutorials and learning and development.

1282
01:22:14,388 --> 01:22:16,868
We would refer to them as scaffolding,
right?

1283
01:22:16,868 --> 01:22:20,128
They provide their owners with
scaffolding.

1284
01:22:20,128 --> 01:22:22,808
So you want the best EV experience.

1285
01:22:22,808 --> 01:22:24,758
This is how you'll get it.

1286
01:22:24,758 --> 01:22:27,448
And they provide it to you.

1287
01:22:27,616 --> 01:22:34,836
The issue I have as a complete rogue is
that don't tell me what to do.

1288
01:22:34,896 --> 01:22:38,236
But I recognize that I'm in the minority,
right?

1289
01:22:38,236 --> 01:22:38,776
And if...

1290
01:22:38,776 --> 01:22:44,916
say that because I'll overwrite it all the
time to do my own kind of way to maybe get

1291
01:22:44,916 --> 01:22:46,196
places faster.

1292
01:22:46,196 --> 01:22:49,896
But I think as you're right, as kind of
like that scaffolding as that kind of

1293
01:22:49,896 --> 01:22:53,916
holding hand as someone getting into an EV
the first time, that's huge.

1294
01:22:53,916 --> 01:22:57,356
But once again, even if I say, you know
what, I like what you told me, but I'm not

1295
01:22:57,356 --> 01:22:58,388
going to go that way.

1296
01:22:58,388 --> 01:23:02,128
The fact that I can then see in real time,
like, this charger, another 10 miles is

1297
01:23:02,128 --> 01:23:03,088
completely unused.

1298
01:23:03,088 --> 01:23:08,708
I'm just going to go that and route to it
is that kind of level of data that you can

1299
01:23:08,708 --> 01:23:11,468
kind of like do through the Electrify
America app.

1300
01:23:11,468 --> 01:23:18,148
But so much more consistently have I been
let down by trying to do that, or it's not

1301
01:23:18,148 --> 01:23:18,868
enough.

1302
01:23:18,868 --> 01:23:24,028
It's not an accurate display of how many
are actually live or correctly running.

1303
01:23:24,688 --> 01:23:26,788
But it's where we can go.

1304
01:23:26,788 --> 01:23:36,208
ceiling versus floor, right, the floor of
the Tesla travel experience is very much

1305
01:23:36,208 --> 01:23:40,808
higher than the floor of the travel
experience in pretty much any other EV.

1306
01:23:40,808 --> 01:23:48,048
The ceiling is probably not that far off,
but that ceiling really requires someone

1307
01:23:48,048 --> 01:23:51,264
who knows their car, who knows the
charging infrastructure.

1308
01:23:51,264 --> 01:23:55,944
who doesn't need to rely on a better route
planner or whatever.

1309
01:23:55,944 --> 01:24:02,084
At that point, if Steve and I are
traveling in our non -Tesla EVs, our

1310
01:24:02,084 --> 01:24:07,804
experience is probably not going to be too
far off of a seasoned Tesla owner who

1311
01:24:07,804 --> 01:24:10,864
knows when to override and not to
override.

1312
01:24:10,864 --> 01:24:17,084
But someone who's brand new to EVs, you
throw them in a Bolt EV, a Hyundai Ioniq 5

1313
01:24:17,084 --> 01:24:19,174
or a Tesla Model Y,

1314
01:24:19,264 --> 01:24:23,884
That person who knows absolutely nothing
is going to have a much better experience

1315
01:24:23,884 --> 01:24:27,984
than the Tesla Model Y than they will in
pretty much any other electric vehicle

1316
01:24:27,984 --> 01:24:29,344
that they get into.

1317
01:24:29,344 --> 01:24:34,500
So, you know, that is that barrier to
entry that's been removed.

1318
01:24:34,500 --> 01:24:34,810
sure.

1319
01:24:34,810 --> 01:24:37,420
And I think that's kind of an interesting
way to look at it as that floor and

1320
01:24:37,420 --> 01:24:38,760
ceiling model, because you're right.

1321
01:24:38,760 --> 01:24:45,080
Like maybe the floor of the Tesla one's a
bit higher than the other experience for

1322
01:24:45,080 --> 01:24:45,590
other cars.

1323
01:24:45,590 --> 01:24:48,920
But then you compare that to gas and
combustion space.

1324
01:24:49,300 --> 01:24:52,880
And could you, have there been some that
have tried to do some of this stuff?

1325
01:24:52,880 --> 01:24:53,250
Yes.

1326
01:24:53,250 --> 01:24:57,420
Like Shell had this app and Land Rovers or
something a while ago, and it obviously

1327
01:24:57,420 --> 01:24:58,800
never took off.

1328
01:24:58,800 --> 01:24:59,156
But.

1329
01:24:59,156 --> 01:25:03,976
in so many ways, the floor of the electric
vehicle driving space and where we are

1330
01:25:03,976 --> 01:25:09,496
just across whatever CPO you want to use
is like pretty much where the ceiling is

1331
01:25:09,496 --> 01:25:13,556
for the gas and combustion space for going
on a road trip.

1332
01:25:13,556 --> 01:25:16,906
And it's just like, okay, I'm hungry or I
got to pull and pull over.

1333
01:25:16,906 --> 01:25:20,916
So I'm just going to go this random flying
J versus now I can be a little bit more

1334
01:25:20,916 --> 01:25:25,206
strategic about it and have that decision
and choice that I think is pretty cool.

1335
01:25:25,206 --> 01:25:27,948
And once again, does kind of help instead
of like,

1336
01:25:28,176 --> 01:25:31,636
going to a Costco and waiting 30 to 45
minutes for gas.

1337
01:25:31,636 --> 01:25:34,016
I can like, this place is just as cheap,
if not cheaper.

1338
01:25:34,016 --> 01:25:35,876
And I just go another 10 minutes and I'm
fine.

1339
01:25:35,876 --> 01:25:37,260
I don't have to deal with it.

1340
01:25:37,260 --> 01:25:39,586
like back allies of targets?

1341
01:25:40,684 --> 01:25:47,664
no, I, I, yeah, that, that, that's, that
could be another whole podcast about, my

1342
01:25:47,664 --> 01:25:50,764
issues with electrify America's and
Walmart's and some of the other locations

1343
01:25:50,764 --> 01:25:51,804
they've chosen.

1344
01:25:51,804 --> 01:25:56,844
But, and yeah, this EVCS place I was just,
that was not good.

1345
01:25:56,844 --> 01:25:59,464
I, I had to, I had to leave.

1346
01:25:59,464 --> 01:26:00,964
There was multiple reasons I was leaving.

1347
01:26:00,964 --> 01:26:06,612
One was definitely so uncanny, that was
there that, I.

1348
01:26:06,612 --> 01:26:10,932
Clearly they were having a bad day, but I
unfortunately did not have the time,

1349
01:26:11,152 --> 01:26:15,912
capital or mental bandwidth to invest in
trying to help whatever issue they had

1350
01:26:15,912 --> 01:26:16,592
going on.

1351
01:26:16,592 --> 01:26:17,230
So.

1352
01:26:17,230 --> 01:26:18,280
that's unfortunate.

1353
01:26:18,280 --> 01:26:23,400
itself, I think we've had about five
different podcasts topics in this

1354
01:26:23,400 --> 01:26:26,920
conversation already today, Eric, but I
realize we've gone over time and I just

1355
01:26:26,920 --> 01:26:28,360
want to say thank you for your time.

1356
01:26:28,360 --> 01:26:32,620
And it's been really a great conversation
in so many realms, even in the little

1357
01:26:32,620 --> 01:26:34,580
areas here and there where we disagree.

1358
01:26:34,580 --> 01:26:38,930
There's, it is kind of great just how much
overlap we have as EV drivers.

1359
01:26:38,930 --> 01:26:40,492
We've kind of seen like,

1360
01:26:40,500 --> 01:26:44,380
And maybe I vet too much about how I know
what I have been, but I have kind of

1361
01:26:44,380 --> 01:26:45,290
reached my bullying points.

1362
01:26:45,290 --> 01:26:46,170
Like, yeah, it's been a decade.

1363
01:26:46,170 --> 01:26:48,000
Let's figure this out already.

1364
01:26:48,619 --> 01:26:50,476
but this has been a great convo.

1365
01:26:50,676 --> 01:26:51,036
you, Ian.

1366
01:26:51,036 --> 01:26:54,396
Our disagreements are mostly about
personal preference.

1367
01:26:54,416 --> 01:26:59,176
I mean, how can anybody be right or wrong
in that anyway, right?

1368
01:26:59,176 --> 01:27:00,248
So, yeah.

1369
01:27:00,248 --> 01:27:05,508
And I mean, and that's the thing is like,
there's been a lot of times I've taken it,

1370
01:27:05,508 --> 01:27:10,688
like I've done a road trip that is like,
I, I don't want to be in a rush and I'm

1371
01:27:10,688 --> 01:27:12,078
totally in the same mindset with you.

1372
01:27:12,078 --> 01:27:15,128
And that's when I'm just like, okay, why
don't we have more level two chargers or

1373
01:27:15,128 --> 01:27:18,208
like even a 25 kilowatt DC faster?

1374
01:27:18,208 --> 01:27:18,658
I don't care.

1375
01:27:18,658 --> 01:27:22,988
Just something here that scratches the
itch versus having to go to a super

1376
01:27:22,988 --> 01:27:24,288
charger or something.

1377
01:27:24,408 --> 01:27:25,748
So.

1378
01:27:26,564 --> 01:27:27,384
All right.

1379
01:27:27,384 --> 01:27:30,504
Well, yeah.

1380
01:27:30,584 --> 01:27:32,016
Thank you, Chase.

1381
01:27:32,016 --> 01:27:36,036
And I'm sorry, before we do go, like Eric,
what's the best way for people who want to

1382
01:27:36,036 --> 01:27:39,104
learn more and follow your adventures to
connect with you?

1383
01:27:39,104 --> 01:27:43,524
Just to, like I said, the YouTube channel,
just News Coolum.

1384
01:27:43,864 --> 01:27:47,564
You know, I'm trying to post a little bit
more frequently.

1385
01:27:47,564 --> 01:27:52,164
I haven't been traveling as much, been
taking care of some stuff, but I'm writing

1386
01:27:52,164 --> 01:27:59,268
up a series of EV fud busting, so yeah,
I've got to go rotate my tires.

1387
01:27:59,268 --> 01:28:00,032
it for sure.

1388
01:28:00,032 --> 01:28:07,692
Yeah, yeah, so hopefully that should shed
a little bit of light on some less than

1389
01:28:07,692 --> 01:28:11,052
honest actors in the journalistic space.

1390
01:28:11,052 --> 01:28:12,756
So, yeah.

1391
01:28:12,756 --> 01:28:15,436
am looking forward to that too now.

1392
01:28:15,436 --> 01:28:17,346
But Eric, once again, thank you.

1393
01:28:17,346 --> 01:28:21,656
And we'll make sure to have a link to that
in today's show notes, whether on YouTube

1394
01:28:21,656 --> 01:28:22,816
or on the podcast.

1395
01:28:22,816 --> 01:28:24,064
So have a great day.

1396
01:28:24,064 --> 01:28:25,289
Yeah, thank you so much, Chase.

1397
01:28:30,704 --> 01:28:33,264
That's a wrap for this episode of Grid
Connections.

1398
01:28:33,264 --> 01:28:37,124
A big thank you to Eric Way for sharing
his insights and experience with us.

1399
01:28:37,124 --> 01:28:40,504
We hope you found our discussion on EV
road trip tactics, charging

1400
01:28:40,504 --> 01:28:45,044
infrastructure, and the future of electric
vehicles as enlightening as we did.

1401
01:28:45,044 --> 01:28:48,464
Remember, if you enjoyed this episode,
share it with at least one other person

1402
01:28:48,464 --> 01:28:50,404
who might find it interesting as well.

1403
01:28:50,404 --> 01:28:53,404
It makes a big difference and really does
help us.

1404
01:28:53,404 --> 01:28:57,840
And please take a moment to leave a
positive review on our podcast page.

1405
01:28:57,840 --> 01:29:01,540
Your feedback and support are invaluable
for us to keep bringing you new guests and

1406
01:29:01,540 --> 01:29:02,820
great discussions.

1407
01:29:02,820 --> 01:29:05,620
Until next week, this is the Grid
Connections podcast signing