morning Grid Connections listeners.
Today we're thrilled to have Eric Way, the host of the News Coulomb YouTube channel.
I originally met Eric by being a guest on Plug and Play TV's live show discussing EV
road tripping.
Eric brings a wealth of experience from his background of living in Northern
California with a Chevy Bolt.
In this episode, we dive into the various EV road trip tactics, discuss the rollout
of EV charging infrastructure,
and share our visions for the future of EVs and EV charging road trips.
If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with at least one other person you
think would love it too.
And don't forget to leave a positive review on our podcast page as well,
please.
Your support helps us bring more exciting content to you.
With that, enjoy.
you, Chase.
Yeah, I have a YouTube channel news Coulomb pun intended You know I started a
little over seven years ago now when I when I got my bolt TV just sort of as a
means of sort of communicating my experiences as I got that car and You
know, and it's just sort of grown from there.
So yeah, we just just knew news Coulomb
on YouTube and that's pretty much it.
So what made you choose originally the Bolt EV or what made you kind of take the
plunge into going with an electric vehicle?
Well, I mean, I'd been driving plugins for, well, it's going on 12 years now.
So the Chevy Volt is what I ended up getting, 2011 Chevy Volt.
And I think I actually didn't get it until almost 2012.
But I had been interested in electric vehicles for a long time.
It's kind of the story you hear too about like remote control car, RC car.
I always had those as kid, and I was playing with, always fiddling with the
battery and the motors.
So I was always interested and throughout the early 2000s, I was tracking the
industry just as a sort of fan, watching what proceeded with the GM EV1, the Ranger
EV, which I actually own two of now that I'm restoring, was actually the EV I
always wanted.
When it came out, it was what, $50 ,000, $55 ,000?
My little head at the time exploded with the thought of how expensive that was.
So yeah, just basically, and then early 2000s, I was even planning out some sort
of a conversion, DIY conversion, but that's the dark ages of EV conversions
when people were using forklift motors and 12 volt car batteries.
to put together something that had about 30 miles of range, if you were lucky.
And just budget, time constraints, all of that never worked out.
And I considered the Nissan Leaf when it first came out too.
And I just realized with its range, I was gonna need two cars.
There's just no way possible.
So I eventually ended up getting the Chevy Volt.
And it was maybe the first Chevy that I had.
purchased myself in one of the only Chevys my family had ever owned.
And I was kind of won over by the tech, right?
I was won over by how well they integrated the electric motors.
As a lot of Volt owners will tell you, the weakest part of the Chevy Volt is the gas
engine, right?
I mean, everything else about that car is great.
And so when...
you know, I found out that GM was building the Chevy Bolt EV.
I was kind of sold on it already, but I knew I was getting an EV and at that point
in time, it was either the Tesla Model S60D or the Bolt EV.
And it basically made the agreement with myself, whichever, you know, if they were
able to deliver the Bolt EV by the end of 2016,
I was going to go that direction because it's literally half the cost.
I was budget and value minded at the time and I took the plunge and I went with it.
From that point forward, it was just wanting to share my experiences because I
had a unique use case.
That was that I was putting on some days 150 to 200 miles a day.
I didn't have charging at home for a lot of the time, so it was either work
charging or public charging.
So there were really limited options for me and you know, I needed something.
Then of course every couple of weeks I'd go on a thousand, fifteen hundred mile
weekend trip.
And so I needed something that was capable of doing all of that long range driving.
And you know, it needed to be technology that I trusted.
Like I said, GM had already kind of proven themselves to me with the Volt.
So that's kind of where I got where I was going.
But yeah, I mean, I don't know.
Did that answer your question?
That's kind of how I ended up in the car.
kind of jump off point.
I'm curious with when you say you're driving a couple hundred miles a day and
then maybe you're doing these longer road trips on the weekends.
Was that with the idea you'd have the Bolt as a daily driver and then you were still
keeping the Chevy Volt for those longer drives or a second car?
Or were you planning at that time to do it all in the Bolt as your main car for it?
That was the other thing is it needed to be my only car and so I still own like so
somewhere along the line I was putting on those miles even even when I first got my
my Chevy Volt so maybe a sub chapter to the backstory is I did eventually trade in
my 2011 volt for a 2015 volt a little bit better battery capacity a little bit more
features and functionality, but it was mostly actually the internet
the OnStar, the 4G LTE internet, because where I am currently, right, I'm speaking
to you through Starlink, because there just aren't any ISPs where I am in
Northern California, where my family and my property is.
So I needed something that also had an internet.
That's why I went with the 2015 Volt, sort of traded it in.
But when I got my Bolt EV,
I had made a deal with my family that I took their C -Max.
I said, you're done with this.
You're taking my Volt and I'm going and I'm trading the C -Max in.
And then that way they got high speed internet up here and they had a plug -in
hybrid, not just a hybrid.
And then I got the Volt EV.
So the Volt EV needed to do all of that driving on its own.
That's why I said early on in my video channel is it's the no training wheels EV,
right?
You don't have a backup.
You don't have a gas generator on board.
There's no training wheels.
You're fully committed now.
So.
Yeah, I think that's an interesting way to put it, especially with kind of the
charging infrastructure at that time when you purchased it.
But I know that's something we'll probably be talking more about.
So I want to, I'm kind of curious.
I didn't really fully appreciate how long you'd been driving the Chevy Volt and just
thinking of kind of the current news and what we've been hearing from General
Motors.
They're still obviously pushing electric vehicles and they're finally delivering
some more now, but there's clearly been a pushback from some of the traditional
legacy auto OEMs here domestically about.
kind of the more temperate approach and doing plugin hybrids.
And I'm, I'm kind of curious on your thoughts of the plugin hybrid versus Evie
fully Evie debate and where you think kind of looking at the market nowadays, what it
makes the most sense.
Well, if you brought me on here for hot takes, you'll get one.
Honestly, I really don't see a place for plug -in hybrids.
Not anymore.
You could maybe make an argument 12 years ago that plug -in hybrids were a valid
option.
But at this point in time, I see them as essentially a complete waste.
You're...
You're not any plug -in hybrid that you have You're going to drive and you're
going to realize how much better that car would be if it were just all -electric And
that's what you see here here all the time from Chevy Volt owners from BMW i3 owners
if only I had double the battery capacity if only I had
a hundred miles of EV range or only I had a hundred and fifty miles of EV range,
then I'd never need to use the gas engine except in emergencies.
Well, that's kind of what the public charging infrastructure is there for
anyway.
So at this point in time, it just it's a waste for me, in my opinion, to go down
that road of adding an internal combustion engine, adding all of the equipment that
goes with it, wasting all the space, all the complexity, all the cost.
when you're literally replacing that with a similar cost in batteries and doubling
or tripling or quadrupling the range, the power, the capability of the car.
So to me, there might be a couple of valid use cases for plug -in hybrids and it's
almost all going to be commercial or heavy duty vehicles.
And really I see even that as a cop out because to me,
The use cases for someone who really would want to plug in hybrid, you're either
better off getting an all electric that's more capable on the EV side, or if that's
not good enough for you, and there is a small percentage of the population where I
do agree that that's still true, you should just get a hybrid instead.
A mild hybrid because most of your gains are going to be from stopping the internal
combustion engine when you come to a stoplight,
doing low speed EV driving, maybe a mile or two at a time.
And then once you get up to speed, you're running off the gas engine.
And at least that way you're saving all of those batteries for more capable EVs.
You're saving yourself cost and complexity.
But you're getting all the benefits of a hybrid essentially.
For sure.
And I actually agree with you.
And I, obviously, I think where I'm at here and been, there's a decent amount of
electric vehicles and plug -in hybrids, but the incident you go east of here or
like northeast of here, it is literally a desert charging and weather or climate
wise.
And so I do understand why some people kind of make that choice.
And if they are.
kind of skeptical or hasn't to go fully EV, but you're totally right when it just
seems like the people that do that within a few months are like, yeah, if only this
thing had twice the battery range or they start doing all the things anyway, that
it's your, you're close enough and, between the maintenance and other kinds of
points of failures, it does seem to make sense to just go to a fully electric
system.
One.
I was just going to close by saying, you know, as an experienced volt owner, I can
tell you for a fact that gas anxiety is a real thing.
There were trips that I literally didn't take that I could have because it would
have been burning gas.
And I just didn't I just didn't want to be burning the gas at the time.
So it's like, well, I could go on this 200, 300 mile weekend excursion.
I'd be burning gas.
I just don't want to do it.
I don't feel like using the money or wasting the time or what you're using the
fuel.
So there is a gas anxiety component to it because you get addicted to the EV side of
it.
Just knowing that it's completely replenishable, completely renewable.
Yeah, you just don't want to burn gas.
Yeah, that's kind of funny.
And that, that does make sense with when you look at even going back further than
that with kind of the original Prius is and people who are kind of doing the
hypermiling and trying to minimize how much gas they were burning and even trying
to convert those to plug in hybrid.
So I think all of that does make a lot of sense with that.
you look at the Chevrolet bolt being discontinued now, and there's obviously
pros and cons to that, but what do you think?
for kind of the secondary market for used cars because it seems like even brand new,
they were pretty cheap.
Plus now you can qualify for the $4 ,000.
I'm not sure if it's a tax credit or how the $4 ,000 used car government rebate
works, but in that whole space, what do you think if you were to get a used EV,
would you go with a Bolt or would you look at something else just kind of given where
prices have
dropped down for a lot of other used EVs.
Well, I don't know that I would be in the market for a used EV, right?
I think I would actually prefer to go the route of a new EV, and I think a lot of
that does have to do with the $7 ,500 incentive, right?
So yeah, there is the possibility of going cheap, but I also don't know that I would
go with a bolt EV, just assuming that I would give up my car, then maybe, but...
I wouldn't be replacing my Bolt EV.
Right now on the chopping block first is the Volt.
So if we want to go from that example, if I were going to replace my Volt with a
cheap EV or a used EV, it probably actually, believe it or not, might be
something like the Nissan Leaf, right?
It's something where I think it's actually more capable than people give it credit
for.
And it's even cheaper than the Bolt EV.
And as long as you go into it with the understanding that you're probably not
going to be taking long trips with it, it really is for your local runabout.
That and, you know, Nissan's credit, they do great interiors, comfortable car.
But yeah, I haven't really given, to be perfectly honest, I haven't given much
thought to the used market because, you know, obviously you could go the direction
of a Tesla Model 3.
I don't know that I would go that direction.
One of the things that maybe I would have mentioned is that where I live, ground
clearance is a real thing.
And so lower sedans is something that I probably wouldn't want to go with.
Maybe a used model Y would be more appropriate in that direction, but it
would definitely be leaning more toward the crossover side rather than the...
in the sedan or the smaller car, like an IONIQ, original IONIQ, not the IONIQ 5.
I wouldn't go with that either just because of the size of the car and the
ground clearance.
So.
For sure.
And that's interesting because that's actually a big part of the reason I chose
our model Y.
among other reasons, just kind of, we do a lot of hiking and just kind of going on.
I wouldn't by any means call them off road trails when we've taken that thing.
but yeah, easily dirt roads, sometimes washed out.
I mean, we did technically drive it over a washed out bridge.
but yeah, by no means is it like your traditional off -roader, compared to like
a Jeep or something like that.
Well, and I did run into that same issue with the Volt.
It's another reason that I'm...
that's gonna be the next car that I get rid of is the Volt is because that low
sedan, I was just running into problems with it, so...
Now, that is interesting.
So we've talked about obviously the kind of why you chose the bolt and the volt and
doing these road trips and kind of being in remote areas.
And I think that's something both you and I have definitely had some experience
with.
Now, I think one area where we may have different opinions on is.
around DC fast charging and that kind of experience.
Cause I mean, for me, that was one of the big reasons automatically the bolt was
never going to be on my list.
is just like for doing long distance road trips or just kind of doing like a splash
and dash thing to get to where I need to be.
The 50 kilowatt, charging was definitely not just between the infrastructure, but
also, the availability on the time it would take for that kind of charging.
Right.
Well, and I think so I went into it partially with the understanding that
charging was going to take a little bit longer.
And like I said, part of that came from my experience with the Volt is I did some
back of the napkin math and basically figured that I would be looking at similar
efficiencies in the Volt EV as what I was seeing in the Volt and they weren't too
far off.
So.
And then again, like you had mentioned, even though we didn't know at the time
that I got the Bolt EV, what its charging rate was, we just knew that a majority of
the public charging infrastructure was 50 kilowatt.
And so at that point, it really becomes sort of basic math, right?
You look at the i3 or the LEAF that were out already, and you get to look at their
charging rate and say, okay, well, and just shorthand in case you're ever
curious,
the 50 kilowatt chargers will add 23 .5 kilowatt hours.
If you're maxing them out, they'll add 23 .5 kilowatt hours in a 30 minute session.
So just doing that math, you can figure how long it's gonna take you.
And most of my trips were never more than about 500 to 600 miles in a day.
So I kind of was able to do those numbers in my head and I knew that...
going from the Volt to the Volt EV, I was going to be adding about an hour to an
hour and a half to those longer trips.
And part of that is I would never go on a 10 hour drive without stopping for a meal
at least and stopping at least one or two times to use the bathroom.
So when I would do those trips in the Volt, it was typically two bathroom
breaks, two discrete bathroom breaks.
and then one fuel stop slash meal stop.
That was about 45 minutes.
So you add all of that together, it's taking me about an hour or so to make a 10
hour drive basically.
With the Bolt EV, I need to add another 30 to 45 minutes to that, sometimes an hour.
So that was a concession that I knew going into it.
And unfortunately as faster chargers became available, which we kind of
expected, it turned out the Bolt EV was faster than the 50 kilowatt, but not fast
enough, faster to make a huge difference, right?
So instead of two hours of charging to make a 500 mile trip, now you're doing an
hour and a half of charging to make a 500 mile trip.
So it's still losing time to your point.
But I do think that the Bolt EV in my mind is sort of that bare minimum bar.
Because as bad as we can say now in today's framing the Bolt EV is, it's far
from the slowest charging EVs available on the market when you look at things like
the Nissan Leaf, for example, or even the BZ4X.
We have vehicles even now.
that aren't necessarily faster than the Bolt EV in terms of charging, and I do
think that they fall below the minimum bar, which to me has always been about a
three to one ratio.
If you can do three hours of driving for every hour that you take off, you're okay,
I think.
Anything less than that and you really do start to run into issues.
So, like I said, out of a...
10 hour trip if you have to stop for three hours, that's pushing it, right?
If you only have to stop for about two to two and a half hours, you may be okay.
But I think even that standard has changed, right?
Just with recent EV developments, so.
Yeah, and I'm kind of curious what you would think.
I think what you're saying totally makes sense.
And I know plenty of people.
And in some ways, I think if level two charging was even more prevalent, it
wouldn't be such an issue.
But what do you think in a like, look, like, let's say, instead of buying the
bolt back in 2016, this was today.
And you were kind of in the same position of going from a plugin hybrid to an EV.
What would you say is kind of the acceptable road tripping, charging time
and speed ideally?
Cause I know we probably disagree on this and I, I don't, I totally understand how
it works and how some people had it.
And I've done road trips when it's my wife and I with the dogs.
and it's not as big of an issue because they need to have breaks and stuff.
But even then, like still to this day, my bare minimum like speed has to be, and
like even then when I've done some of these longer road trips around like 800 to
a thousand miles, I even think a Model Y is like too slow.
See, and that's interesting to me because I did at least have a chance to review the
Kia EV6.
And in my experience, and I mean maybe part of that is framing coming from the
Bolt EV, but in my experience that was too fast.
And so when I say that...
You know, I did the thousand kilometer challenge, the Bjorn Neeland, just to kind
of run it through the chops, see if I ran into any issues with the EV6.
And I spent a grand total, I think, of 45 minutes charging.
So, and part of that, the trip took longer, mostly because of traffic, but I
was still able to average, I think, about 70 miles an hour driving speed.
So I wasn't...
dilly -dallying, right?
So 70 miles an hour, and I think I spent a total of 45 minutes charging, and I only
got to use a 350 kilowatt charger one time.
So basically, had I been able to access a 350 kilowatt charger at each and every one
of those stops, it would have been 35 minutes of total time stopped out of like
10 hours of driving.
To me,
That's way outside the realm of reason because I literally had to rush back from
a pickup order place to get back to my car because I was already at like 85 %
battery.
And I'm like, I can't just sit around.
I barely even got my food.
I was barely able to use, one time I literally had to leave without having used
the bathroom.
because the car was done charging before I could get past the line to get into the
bathroom.
So at that point, it makes for an uncomfortable trip, right?
When your car is outpacing you and you feel this obligation to leave before it's
done charging, to me, that's excessive.
But to your point, some people might feel like that's exactly what they want.
They want a...
10 minute, no more stop and be able to get back on the road again for two to three
hours of driving.
And to me, I think that's pushing the envelope of what's necessary, though it
does satisfy a need.
For me personally, I actually think that sort of 2C charging rate that we're seeing
right now is about right.
The class of EVs that can go from zero -ish
0 % to 80 % in about 30 minutes.
To me right now, that's the kind of Goldilocks zone.
Because we have a bunch of EVs that are like 45 minutes to an hour to charge to
80%.
And we have a bunch of EVs right now that are 15 to 20 minutes to charge to 80%.
I think that 30 to 35 minutes to go from 0 % to 80 % is about that Goldilocks zone
that I personally would prefer.
but I recognize that it also might not be fast enough for some people.
I totally get that perspective of road tripping.
And I know plenty of people like that.
But I always just like, I would rather have the car ready for me before I am.
And I think in some ways, that's also why more level two is good.
Because if you know you're going to be somewhere for a while or something, then
yeah, you can just kind of plug it into that.
And.
If anything, I sometimes like to even see a higher amperage level too.
But, and like I said, if it's just myself, that, excuse me, that's when I by far
known or like noticed like, okay, I'm waiting.
And that does, and I kind of go back and forth.
Like if you're only going a few hundred miles, yeah, maybe you only have to charge
once or twice and both should be pretty quick ones.
Especially where you're going has charging and you can just plug it in overnight.
But yeah, it's like, once you start getting into like the 800 to 1000 plus
mile day trips, that's where it's like by the end of the day, you're like, okay, I'm
tired of like, having to, I try to do like just, more frequent stops, but shorter,
like just use the bathroom break, go in.
and from here to Phoenix.
from Bend Oregon to Phoenix, I think I did it in...
I want to say eight, but I'm pretty sure it was nine stops.
I think the reason I say eight, because one of those was like, I just had to go to
the bathroom again.
I'd probably had too much coffee by that point, but each of those were like
literally try and get the battery as low as possible, plug it in to get that max
charge, run in, get a coffee or water, use the bathroom and then try and be on the
road for at least another.
I think that's where I've struggled is like, it's usually at that point, even for
like a 10 to 15 minutes stop, it's like.
year on the road for probably an hour and a half to hour 45.
And I think it would just be nicer to see like more of those charging cars in that
higher peak rate or at least hold the curve longer.
So you're in the car for two to two and a half hours per charge.
Right, and that's where I kind of see like maybe there's a difference in personal
philosophy or whatever because to me, rather than making a 15 minute, two 15
minute or two 10 minute stops and driving for three hours to four hours, I would
rather make one 30 minute stop and then drive for three hours.
And that's where I think the designs of the EVs kind of are...
are diverging, I would say, because we really do have two different strategies
that we're seeing at in play right now, where you have sort of the Tesla Lucid
model, where it's a super high peak and then a very rapid taper.
So you're really incentivized to leave that charger no more than 50%, maybe 60 %
battery.
That adds the number of stops that you have to make, but it reduces the amount of
time spent charging.
Whereas the other philosophy that we're seeing is sort of the EGMP philosophy or
the we're seeing it from Porsche and at a slightly lower rate but a similar
breakdown would be someone like GM with their Ultium where it's not quite the same
high average power that you're seeing from Porsche and Hyundai and Kia but it's the
same sort of the charging profile design philosophy, right?
Where you're...
You're charging at a higher rate for longer, so you're incentivized to stay
longer.
But then when you get on the road, you're on the road for longer, so you make fewer
stops.
So I feel like as long as people are kind of like, that's the barrier, right?
If we're promoting EVs that we need to get to people who are considering an EV is
what is your travel philosophy and which car works the best for that?
Right.
Because yeah, the splash and dash is fine for probably three or four automakers at
most.
And then the rest of them, you're going to be wanting to stop for 30 minutes to 40
minutes, but you're going to be on the road for longer periods of time between
stops.
So I think that's the difference that I see.
Yeah.
like I said, when it's not me and it's like, I'm with my wife and dogs, it's
better.
and we usually stay a little bit longer at spots, but, yeah, right now I'm all about
the Porsche charge profile.
Unfortunately, the Porsche price comes along with that, but that has kind of been
one of the areas where I've been, like I think that's also been a.
Part of the reason I've been pretty disappointed with both Ford and GM's
offerings because the charge rate kind of like looking at a C level, it just hasn't
been that strong.
and I guess I think it actually even add Rivian to that.
and the reason I look at those is like, sure.
Let's use GM share the Silverado and the Hummer EV, like do like three 80, but when
you have a pack that's like 200, it's like, yeah, I want to be doing 600 or
something like that.
and there's an argument that's a whole different thing.
And there's an argument to be made like, okay, are you even saving money or are you
even spending more than you would be in diesel or something at that point?
That's a whole nother kind of conundrum, but like even, like with the Rivian, which
is also obviously a much more expensive product.
but even like the four lightning, they both are vehicles with really large
batteries and,
even though the Ford holds it, it just seems like it should be able to hold at
least closer to 200 longer.
Just because it's also just kind of shown to be a great vehicle, but not really the
best road tripper if you have to stop more than once.
Yeah, I mean, and I'm probably going to offend some lightning owners when I say
this, but I'm sure you probably saw that race down, was it I -95, I think it was,
with the two lightnings, one using the supercharger, one using Electrify America
with Tom Malogny.
They made that trip in about the same amount of time that it would have taken me
in my Bolt EV.
So...
You know, not to offend some lightning owners out there, but it's just a matter
of efficiency relative to your charging speed, right?
But I was going to say too, that's why part of, I think, the deviation in the
different philosophies about travel and charging speed also come from looking at
peak versus looking at average, right?
So if you actually break down that average,
You could use the GMC Hummer EV or the Silverado EV as an example.
So 200 kilowatt hour pack.
But if you look at their average charging rate to 80%, they're averaging about 250
kilowatt.
So that's more than 50 % faster than what the Cybertruck is averaging to 80%.
Now you could say, well, the battery is almost 100 % bigger.
Right.
deviation in the averages actually aren't that big, right?
You're looking at maybe a 10 to 15 % advantage in charging speed based on a C
rate for the Cybertruck.
But that's when you look at average.
But if you look at peak, you say, well, 123 kilowatt hour pack, peaking at 330,
that's impressive.
So that's why I said, but it's how much you hold it.
And...
sure.
point, if you're driving a Tesla and you don't charge past 50%, your average
charging rate is over 200 kilowatt.
Now all of a sudden, the difference is much smaller and it's like, well, now
you're leaning into, I think, the strengths of the car.
And the concern that I have though is how many average consumers want to do that
versus do what they want to do or make the car do what they want to do.
And so that's...
That's I think the real issue with EV adoption right now is one, there's sort of
ignorance about how each different platform functions.
And then there are sort of invalid expectations because of that ignorance.
And you see it all the time from journalists who slam EVs because they,
yeah, they get into a Rivian or a Lightning and they're like, I'm gonna
drive like a gas powered F -150.
No, you're not.
but you went in with that expectation, so anything shorter than that is gonna seem
like a failure.
And, you know.
continuously disappointed with the vast majority of automotive journalism just
because it's still so common to see someone use kilowatt hour when they meant
kilowatt and vice versa.
And it doesn't seem like it's a big thing, or I don't know if they just don't care
that much about electric vehicles, but it's like, it to me is just kind of.
at best sad and at worst kind of like against what their journalistic integrity
should be to like know what their job is and realize that it's a different car and
it's a different beast altogether.
And kind of having it's one thing to know about the overhead cams on a V12 and
that's great and all on a multimillion dollar car, but you should also be just as
into it for the IONIQ five or something that has a, and I totally agree with you
on the peak versus.
cause I totally agree.
I would settle for a lower peak rate if it held it longer.
but the same, right.
But it was.
flat to 85 % is like, done.
problem then is, I think if you're going to do that, you have to be a really
efficient vehicle.
That was the e -tron's kind of failure was it just, unfortunately, wasn't efficient.
So you kind of, yes, I do.
I guess that's where I'm kind of like, I feel like we just haven't seen, we've seen
new entrants, but we haven't really seen new.
I feel like for a long time there, there was pretty big improvements like every
other year.
And now I kind of feel like it has stagnated a little bit.
And the most recent vehicles that I've been like, okay, that's cool.
Are the Porsches, but obviously that comes at a pretty big price.
And at the same time, they're not making their own batteries.
They're getting them from a supplier.
And even the Porsche engineers admit that they're pushing it, but they're keeping it
within what the specifics of the cells are.
And so outside of better thermal regulation, I don't understand why we're
not seeing that from more vehicle makers or more competitive.
I think there's been some with the high end IKEA group, but my pushback there is.
And hopefully this is changing.
I think this may have changed with some of the newer vehicles is just some of the
issues that they've had in cold weather.
And also just it still isn't terribly consistent to find.
Well, obviously, because of their voltage structure, that also has a lot of
interoperability issues with finding the right chargers that can max that out.
Well, but I mean, I would say that that's not as big of an issue in North America
because Tesla is really the holdout in terms of 800 volt.
Because within the North American charging infrastructure anyway, if it's faster than
100 kilowatt, it's 800 volt.
So that's one of those benefits that the...
that the EGMP vehicles do, they do benefit from that.
So.
I see I'd push back on that actually, because part of the issue, I don't run,
I'm all for 800 volt architecture.
And obviously that's what like the Tycon has.
And then the Macan is really bizarre because it's technically like 600 volt,
but since it's more than 400, they just called 800.
The difference is, is the actual charging infrastructure.
So many of them are actually, cause it's based on electrical equipment.
That's why we have 400 volt.
That's why we have 800 volt.
It's based on traditional electrical infrastructure.
And then the systems have kind of been more or less backwards designed to meet
those kind of supply chains.
And that I think actually is one of the big reasons Lucid's had so many issues is
they decide they kind of did the right thing, but they decide to go with this
really high voltage, very specific, pretty rare supply chain and like, EV support
infrastructure and charging infrastructure that can support that.
And while I think obviously a higher voltage and like 800 volt.
whatever you want to call it, design is going to be the future.
Still so many of the charging infrastructure we have is based on more or
less a 400 volt technology.
There's some of the ones that EA and others have brought that are higher
voltage and offer that.
And to some extent, that's part of the reason we've seen some of them have issues
is just around not having the right course.
Like, I mean.
That's changing a little bit, but that's obviously where you kind of got the thing
called the signet surge and all these kind of fun issues that some of these higher
voltage charges were just running into not being able to kind of continuously support
those.
And I think that is a growing pain and will change longer term.
But in the short term, like I kind of it's unfortunate, but I understand why like
Mercedes and so many of these other EV makers stayed with 400 volt.
Not only is there the supply chain for it, but I think traditionally there's just
been a much more consistent charging experience in much more different
inclement weathers than if you go with like the full 800 volt and you have to BC
charge regularly.
Well, and see, that's why I said I would say, based on my experience, that the
current is the bigger issue than the voltage.
And this is something that I'm currently investigating right now because my Bolt EV
isn't letting me do it directly.
But it appears that EVgo does have an issue with their Delta chargers, where
they are not combining power the way that they're supposed to.
And so they're offering 500 amps no problem, but they're not bridging so when
you come in with a GMC Hummer EV you come in with a Chevy Silverado EV and you
expect three 500 amps at 700 volts.
It's not bridging It's just giving you 500 amps.
So at that point in time, you're basically charging at Rivian speeds, right?
You're charging at the 500 amp
400 volt architecture speeds.
And that's not how those chargers are designed to work.
And now I don't know if you've heard the same thing, but I was chatting with a
certified technician for Electrify America.
And he was telling me that that signet surge is a completely different issue.
It has nothing to do with the 800 volt.
It has to do with the fact that their power modules are flaky.
And so what you're seeing is a lot of power module failures in the BTC power
units and in the CigNet units.
And it's causing surges because you have these 50 -ish kilowatt power modules that
will just suddenly cycle on and suddenly cycle off and suddenly cycle on and
suddenly cycle off.
And it's not really the voltage of the architecture, because that's the thing is
literally every single Electrify America site.
that's in and this has been true since 2018 is 800 volt.
All of them.
Like the 150 kilowatt, the 350 kilowatt chargers are all 800 volts.
They had a handful of 50 kilowatt chargers that they abandoned.
But if you look at the placards at every public charger basically that's faster
than 100 kilowatt, that's gone in in the last 10 years, it's the 920 plus volt
rating.
So,
I don't know.
I see it as being ubiquitous and the holdup is really that 500 amp where a lot
of vehicles are demanding it and a lot of chargers aren't able to accommodate it.
And if they are, they're not able to accommodate it like consistently.
And that was really the benefit that I saw from the EV6 is there's a four minute
difference, literally a four minute difference charging to 80 % using 150
kilowatt charger versus
a 350 kilowatt charger because they aren't anywhere close to maxing out the amps.
It's like 350 amps or whatever, but they're pulling in 750, 800 volts.
And so here you plug into 150 kilowatt charger and you look at the display and it
says 170 plus kilowatt and it's like, what?
Yeah, because you're going way over the placard rating because the charger was
rated based on a combination of
volts and amps and you're just sneaking in where the current is lower but you're
peaking the voltage higher so you're seeing a higher than rated speed on those
chargers.
So yeah, I don't know.
I see a lot of the issues that you're talking about.
Like I said, I noted that one with EVgo where I'm doing a little bit more
investigating because they're building these chargers based on GM funding.
They really do need to be supporting that 350 kilowatt plus charging.
of these GMEVs.
So hopefully they're taking care of that internally.
I just haven't heard anything about it.
And then of course, Electrify America, it's a grab.
Life is like a box of Electrify America charging sites.
You just never know what you're gonna get when you show up.
And sometimes everything is 100 % perfect and sometimes they're flaky.
I think, did you comment you had watched that Jordan,
out of spec Cybertruck through Wyoming.
So that was exactly it.
His experience with Electrify America is what I would expect.
You go to one charger and it's kind of peaking, kind of dropping, kind of doing
weird things.
So the power you pull into the next stall, 300 kilowatt, no problem.
You go to the next site, plug in 300 kilowatt, no problem.
I did that exact drive a little over a year ago and I had through, I think maybe
all of Wyoming where I was driving, it was all V2 superchargers.
So I was like, you know what, I'm gonna give the Electrify America ones a try.
And one of them I stopped at, I'm trying to remember where the town was, but it
took me probably 10 minutes to get the app thing to work because of cell connection.
And then I plugged it in, I was like, cool, it's doing...
I guess I think it was doing something to 200.
So I was like, fine, whatever.
I'm happy.
I run in to go to the bathroom and then I get a notification on my phone that like
your charging has stopped.
I was like, that's not good.
And then I go out there and try and plug it back in.
And it would only, it said, do you rate it or what?
I forgot what the thing had said, but it was essentially the sign saying it was
derating.
It wouldn't go above 50 kilowatts.
Yeah.
so at that point I was like, you know what, screw this.
And, by the time I'd last in between setting it up and then having to go back
out, I was just like, I might as well just been on the one 50 and I ended up just
driving over there.
Cause at that point I had to, because it was down to 50.
So it was great to see that those have clearly been updated and he had a much
more, consistent and better experience in the, taking the cyber truck through that.
But it was just those things that, and I recently had a really bad experience and I
think I kind of.
you watch the recent podcast with Steve Burkett and Walter, where I've just gone
like having all these apps, having it like it should just be swipe my card and go.
if, if there's a savings because I go through the app, great, but, there's no,
like this kind of goes back to my big thing too.
Like that extra five to 10 minutes is such a time waste when you're doing a road trip
and you're trying to like get.
If you're going to have to charge more, like just the plugin go for so many.
And I think obviously I'm kind of coming from it from a perspective, like I'm
trying to get places, try and move as fast as possible.
But then also just from like, you look at so many technology disruptions, like for
something to take off and it has, it doesn't have to be just as good.
It has to be better.
And so to me, like plug and charge experience is better than even a gas
station where you have to swipe.
All you have to do is plug in and walk away and it works.
Obviously you have to kind of set it up that first time, but since then I haven't
had to touch it.
And that's the kind of thing that I think for most users is what would be expected.
Well, and you know, that is kind of interesting because that's the
counterpoint for a gas station is you want to get a discount at a gas station.
You don't need the app.
You just need to walk in with cash in your hand.
Right.
So there is an additional hoop a lot of times and you get your 10 % or whatever,
five cents a gallon discount by paying with cash.
But, but hey, it's inconvenient, but some people think it's worth it.
I'm, I'm one of those weirdo EV owners who still thinks that RFIDs are perfectly
fine.
You know, because you, yeah, because you just have to, like, you're gonna have to
grab the, well, yeah, but you have to grab the cord anyway, so you're gonna be at the
dispenser.
That's what I think a lot of people miss, is you're already there, right?
So just swipe your card and then go.
But it doesn't.
what do you mean about the RFID thing?
Cause I remember with all of those, I had to, if it was like to get the savings, I
at least with blink, I think I had to already have ordered it and then have it
with me when charging.
And so one, like the first time I went to go use it, I didn't have it.
So I had to use their QR code, go through the whole process to order it.
And then like two weeks later I have it.
So I left in my car, I've never used it again.
And that like, to me, that's a terrible experience.
Yeah, that is, well, you said the bad word.
You said blink.
Blink is actually the reason I completely gave up on public charging with my Volt.
Like that blink experience in the 2012, 2013, 2014, I was like, I'm this company,
I'm just never working with them.
Right?
Like it was a terrible experience.
When I got both my Volt and my Bolt, it came with a ChargePoint RFID card.
I still have it, it still works.
I ordered an EVgo RFID with my membership a month or two before I got my Bolt EV,
came in the mail, and I'm still using it today.
Like, well, I'm not, now I have plug -in charge with EVgo, but I mean, it still
works.
I validated that my RFID still works, but it doesn't break that model of membership.
And that's the issue that I see is...
For mainstream EV adoption, I don't know that the membership model is going to work
because I truly believe that a majority of future EV owners are only going to charge
publicly occasionally and it's not going to be at the same network.
So if you make a thousand mile trip and you make three or four stops,
and each one of those stops is at a different charging provider, you're not
going to want three or four memberships.
It just doesn't, like it literally doesn't make sense.
And when you're doing like a large road trip, you could be going through
different, even when I've driven, gas vehicles, it's like, I'm in Nebraska.
So there's a bunch of Mavericks.
Well out West there's no Mavericks and stuff like that, where it's just having to
download all this crap that doesn't work on my phone.
They have to get my data.
And then I'm sorry, I'm going to go on a little bit of a rant.
The fact that I have to download this crap, it's a terrible user experience and.
multiple times I've had to re put in my credit card info and then something
doesn't work because of XYZ and the silicon actions we can, it's just like,
why does that vending machine work over there?
And I can swipe my card and I can't get the stupid thing to work.
that's the kind of crap that just like, that's exactly why people aren't going to
go to EVs.
And that's why I'm like, I'm always inherently frustrated by like an app first
experience, like give me the option.
Don't make it a requirement.
and, and -
if that's an RFID or whatever, like any of those things, those are great perks to
have.
But to me, it's just such a bad experience.
Well, and believe it or not, even Tesla isn't immune to this.
And we're going to see in a few months, right?
Because with GM getting access to the superchargers, the timeframe I've heard
most recently is summer, right?
But GM has this weird issue where the Bolt EV was designed pre -ISO 15118.
So it doesn't have it.
All of the Altium has it natively as part of the CCS -1 standard.
Well, Tesla opening the superchargers, their plug -in charge now for the CCS,
Nax, J3400, whatever you want to call it, that is based on the ISO 15118.
So no matter what, Bolt EV owners are still going to have to use an app to
activate a supercharger.
And to your point,
That was a frustration when I used MagicDock is I went ahead, I was a good
little EV owner.
I went and put all my payment information ahead of time.
I knew I was gonna stop there.
And by the time I got there to the charger, they said, we've lost your
payment information.
Do you mind putting it in again?
So it was another two to three minute process while I'm standing at the
supercharger, putting in my payment information just so it would work again,
right?
And so, and again, that's not Tesla's fault.
it's having an app first access fault, right?
Like anytime you have that app, that's kind of why I said if I'm gonna have a
membership, I don't mind an RFID card, because at least my phone doesn't need to
be powered up.
At least I don't have to have cell phone connection.
I could be in the middle of nowhere and I swipe that RFID card as long as that
charger's connected in some way, it's good.
So.
So I agree with you, like if you're going to have a membership, it should be plug
and charge.
And if you're not going to have a membership, you should have credit card
payment.
They're ready to go that works as conveniently and consistently as a vending
machine.
It has to happen.
So.
For sure.
And I think that's why I'm hoping to see more of these kind of V4 stalls and stuff
they do.
I know a couple of the ones they're doing not close to me, but ones I would use on a
fairly frequent basis are the V4 ones.
One just opened in Weed, so I didn't have a chance to check it out when I was
looking at the Pilot Flying J up there in Weed, but I was talking to this, it's the
same installation crew put in both of them.
Now the V4 in Weed has already been powered up.
That's a discussion maybe for another day because apparently the EVgo site had its
power drop already in place and the utility still hasn't put it in, so I don't
know what's going on there.
Interesting.
when I look in the app, that V4 in Weed is not open outside of Tesla's native
network.
So Ford, Rivian, and Tesla owners only.
So even though it's the V4 dispensers, it's still closed off.
So I would have went up there to test them out, but right now it's not even looking
like it's accessible yet.
So...
Yeah.
And I know they've been slowly rolling out more and more here and there into the ones
that are available.
But yeah, there's one in Chamult, Oregon, which is really in the middle of nowhere
off of 97 that I'm pretty excited for because coincidentally, I mean, the
interesting thing I had was the recent trip I took, I stayed at a hotel and the
hotel had six Rivian Adventure Network DC fast charters.
Okay.
there in the parking lot and obviously I can use them and I think the whole time I
was there I saw one Rivian and I was just like if this was here I would not have to
charge my whole trip but now I have to and so there was a Not really to complain.
There was a Tesla went about ten minutes north and I five that I ended up going to
anyway but I decided to try out the EVCS one that was a few blocks away and just
had like the
Purely epitome of a horrible experience.
Just everything failed it had the ticket the card reader and clearly it didn't work
And then yeah, I just eventually because it was charting like 45 kilowatts that was
just like screwed I'm tired.
I'm getting out of here and went to the other one.
Unfortunately.
I didn't really need the charge.
It was just like, you know what this would be Beneficial I mean I didn't need the
charge because I could just drive the ten minutes anyway
but it would just be maybe convenient and it just.
frustrating to see how much money has been invested in that network, at least from
the state of Oregon and just kind of still see the state that it's in, unfortunately.
Well, and yeah, it's amazing to me that we're still seeing state funding going
toward 50 kilowatt chargers on interstates.
You know, I'm not one to complain about 50 kilowatt chargers.
I think they have their place, but an interstate stop is not one of them, right?
If you want to put them in a town center, you know, like a parking garage.
Now we're talking.
Yeah, 50 kilowatt.
That's fine.
You put them on an interstate or a highway even, and it's really, and we've talked
about this.
I haven't had a chance to actually use EVCS yet.
EVCS, yeah, well, and I mean, maybe I should because I seem to be winning the
lottery whenever I stop at these public chargers.
Like EV Gateway was another one where they put a charger in and reading three of the
units were down.
I just happened to pull into the one that was up and working and I put in my credit
card and it just happened to work.
I was like, okay, there you go.
I just pulled the slot machine and got some change out of it.
So maybe I should try my luck with EVCS.
I wish you the best of luck in it.
I know that they had said back in like, I want to say 23, maybe it was even 22, that
the terminals were going to get a update so that you could use the card payment
reader.
And clearly they haven't, which was one area that was very frustrating.
And then two, they have two apps in the app store still, and you have to download
EVCS new.
And so my phone had EVCS, the original one.
I don't know.
There's just so many of these things that I'm just like, I don't know, having a bit
of a background in that space.
And I just like how, how, how is this maybe in 2012, maybe in 2014, I'll give
you this, but like now like it, cause I mean, yeah, talking about the blink days
and driving an EV back in like 2012.
Yeah.
I, it sucked, but I was like, yeah, this is kind of fun.
It's the wild west.
Anything goes.
And just, if it worked, I was happy.
Well, and that's that.
nowadays, it's like after a decade of kind of dealing with that crap, I'm like, no,
it needs to work the first time it needs to work right.
And I want to get 5 ,000 kilowatts.
I don't care how I just want.
Yeah.
Well, and that's that chasm, right?
Like early adopters, you could say, hey, we're willing to put up with some growing
pains.
Same thing with the bolt EV charging rate, right?
You want to, you know, you're willing to put up with a little bit as an early
adopter.
Breaking down to that early majority for adoption of EVs really means that you
can't have a lot of these problems.
Or if you do, they need to be the exception, not the norm.
So.
And like, let's say even in today that they still made the bull, you can still
sell those.
It would just be like, it's around town, second car government.
I mean, there's a huge market for that.
And I think in some ways they didn't kind of niche it down as much as they should
have near the end of their sales.
And I don't know, that's, that was one, I was like,
There's obviously people like yourself who can use as a primary, but there's still a
huge market for it as a like second car or around town car, whatever you want it to
be that I just don't think they ever fully embraced enough.
Yeah, well, I think the unfortunate part is they wanted it to be their rideshare
fleet car.
And it's really not appropriate as a rideshare fleet car.
That's where I would say it's probably at its weakest.
But for personal users, like I said, I know a lot of bolt EV owners, a lot of EV
owners who have more than 200 miles of base range who never charge away from
home.
Like...
Right.
have a free charging on Electrify America and then they sit there all day.
Yeah, and that's a whole nother problem.
The free charging thing, I kind of get why they did it just to kind of like Tesla did
offer it a long time ago.
And I think when these.
that was an extra cost.
Even when Tesla did that, there was an extra cost involved.
They said up front, you're paying a little bit extra because you're paying for the
superchargers.
You're not paying when you use them, but you're paying to help build out the
network.
They didn't, they...
for the Model S when we bought it as a work vehicle, like it was the Delta in how
much one, how many miles we put on that car and to like to a competitive product.
I think today, I think today you could say that back then that was there wasn't a
Delta.
It's like, okay, I'm paying 5%.
I'm paying 2500 bucks more back then in like 2013.
I'm buying an EV.
that can go a couple hundred miles.
And then it turned out a kid fast charge.
We didn't even know that back then.
I mean, they even discontinued the one that couldn't.
Right.
You know, like early on, like six months in, they're like, we're not going to sell
this one.
It's DC fast charging or nothing.
Right.
So.
But.
mean, I kind of get that, but right, I think that that has kind of turned around,
but it just has usually been a bane of existence for other EV drivers and kind of
what we're talking about.
And I don't know.
It.
I'm just saying like it's free charging completely opposed to it, but I also see
the perception of fairness is different.
Where Tesla said we're baking it into the cost of the car that you are paying for.
Whereas other companies are saying you're getting free charging thanks to a two
billion dollar judgment against our parent company.
And that's a very it's a when it comes to fairness, it's a very different it's a.
a different outlook.
Well, and that is kind of one of the interesting things to kind of go a little
bit back to what you're talking about around supercharging the plugin charge
thing that I think I guess unintentionally kind of goes back to the example of what I
think would be the ideal app thing is with like the Tesla thing.
You can use their app if you sign up for their monthly.
So I think you pay like 10 to 15 bucks and then your per kilowatt hour charge rate
goes way down or it becomes the same as a Tesla drivers.
And that kind of like, like I said, that makes sense.
Like the inconvenience to like have an app and do all that stuff.
If I'm going to save a bit of money, especially if I did consistently, I got
it.
I'm in.
but this whole, like, like essentially the EVCS experience I just had, I'm just like,
no, this, this isn't going to work.
so here's the thing though, that that 13 you're talking.
Right, but but yeah, you're talking about the $13 for the Tesla thing, right?
Yeah, but that's a one time setup, so I wouldn't be able to take advantage of it
in the Bolt TV specifically.
But if you got a Blazer or an Equinox or a Lyric, right, those have ISO 15118.
So once you set up that $13.
In theory, like when Tesla finally opens it up for GM, you just plug in.
Ford is running into issues, the same issues that they had with Electrify
America, where you have two competing apps fighting over who's gonna, they're
fighting over the bill is essentially what it is.
And it's the Ford owners who are getting like.
screwed up by it because it's all I wanted to do plug -in charge.
Well, no, you have to use the Ford app.
Well, I wanted to use the Ford app.
No, you have to do it.
You don't get the pricing.
So that's a kind of a double screw up, I think, on Ford and Tesla's part.
At least they have access.
But in theory, some of the other the other automakers who get that ISO 15118, you
know, automatic plug -in charge, it should just.
pay your $13, get your discounted rate, your monthly Tesla membership rate, and
you should still be able to use plug -in charge.
It should recognize your vehicle automatically when you plug it in and bill
you accordingly.
So.
Well, yeah, and I think there was, you're right, there was kind of like the Ford
Pass versus the Tesla and I...
I think the way you sum it up is pretty accurate.
And from what I understand, the second part is like the data consumption from
either of those apps that was a big reason that FordPass was trying to push back on
that, which I kind of get.
But like you said, it makes it a worse experience.
And I think most people wouldn't care if it just worked.
They'd be willing to kind of give that up since.
Most people do anyway, if they've got Facebook and Instagram, whatever else on
their phone already.
And I totally, yeah, I think that was a poor execution not to just kind of make
that a one and done thing.
And so I hope GM does do that.
Because yeah, I'm not sure if that's how it is with Rivian that I don't think it
is, but I could be wrong.
Yeah, I haven't heard the issues from Rivian owners that I've heard from Ford
owners.
So I think Rivian owners literally might have paid their $13 membership and are
just happily plugging in, getting plug -in charge and the reduced rate and they're
going on their merry way.
So, but.
know, I'm sorry.
Where were we going to say?
no, nothing.
Go ahead.
well, I, I realized we're also kind of coming up on a little bit of the time, but
one, one of the things, I did want to discuss with you, if you have a few more
minutes was in the plug and play EV podcast that you were on yesterday, you
were talking about DC, DC fast charging overbuilding.
And I kind of wanted to discuss that with you because I think that might be an area
we disagree with, but I thought it was an interesting, mindset or just kind of like
how you were.
Perceiving it.
So if you could kind of just give a quick little overview of your thoughts on That I
think that might become interesting
well, yeah, and I mean, I guess I need to start with saying I don't think we're
there yet, right?
I'm saying that I think we are at risk of overfunding the public fast charging and
overbuilding it to the point.
And I mean, it's the walking definition of like a first world problem, right?
no, we have too many fast chargers in public.
But also it does risk stranded assets, right?
You're talking about, it's a lot of expensive equipment that you're talking
about putting into the ground.
And part of the problem too is, doesn't necessarily mean it's equally distributed,
right?
We're seeing this in California too, where CARB called out Electrify America because
all of their disadvantaged communities that they're supporting just happened to
be on
interstates.
How convenient.
Yet half of the counties that qualify as disadvantaged don't have a single
Electrify America charger in the entire county.
That's a problem, right?
So there's that issue.
But yeah, I just think that we need to be realistic about what the actual use cases
are.
Because on one hand, I see the early adopters for electric vehicles,
tend to be more affluent.
They're the people who can afford to take the risk on newer technology.
But those also happen to be the people that both have the time and the economic
means to travel regularly, right?
They're not working full -time jobs.
They're not stuck at home, you know, a majority of the time or at work or office.
They're able to take three -day, four -day, five -day weekends and drive across
the country.
I don't know how many cyber truck owners I've seen.
who have already driven back and forth across the country multiple times, right?
So you buy a $120 ,000 truck, gee whiz, you can afford to take two weeks off of
work and just drive around the country, that's nice.
Most Americans aren't going to do that, right?
So we're sort of front loading the demand for the highest users in my estimation.
So we're already sort of getting a missed.
like a misconstrued notion of the demand that we're going to see moving forward.
But also there are other factors in play, including we're seeing an escalation in EV
range.
It's not quite Moore's law, but we're seeing, you know, you go back 10 years ago
with the exception of Tesla, right?
You were lucky to find an EV that even had a hundred miles of range.
Then, you know,
Five years ago, it was pretty easy to find EVs with 200 miles of range.
Now it's pretty easy to find EVs with 300 miles of range.
And we know that this escalation is going to continue because it's a selling point.
So we're going to get to a point where you're looking at, you know, why doesn't
the Model 3 have 100 kilowatt hour battery pack?
Why doesn't the...
the Model Y have 100 kilowatt hour battery pack.
Now you're looking at a 400 to 450 mile EV that makes 30 minute stops and then drives
for another four hours.
So, well, ask Elon, I'm sure.
Put it on X.
Right, so, and so that's going to reduce the load on these.
And also, I should say, so we're seeing,
five to seven billion dollars just from Nevi going into public charging.
But we're also seeing funding from GM, Toyota, Stellantis, all of these other
automakers.
Mercedes is another big one because they want this brand experience.
So once you get everybody just putting in chargers willy -nilly, nobody's really
kind of doing any sort of accounting of when have we done enough.
and you won't know until you've done way too much.
And part of where I think people may be misunderstood what I said is I'm also
counting Tesla superchargers in that.
How many times have you gone on a trip in your Tesla and stopped at a supercharger
that was completely empty other than yourself, right?
How many times have you gone, you know, and how many times have you seen someone
using an Electrify America or EVgo charger,
where there's a line and they look over at a half full Tesla supercharger.
So even in these surges, right, we're seeing extra capacity available.
So if we continue to build out at the rate that we're building out, I do see that
potential.
And you had asked Steve and Walter, I believe, and I don't know if they gave...
they might not have given you the answer that you were asking for in terms of Nevi
sites, whether they're good enough, right?
I don't think that they are, right?
Like I don't think that 450 kilowatt charging stalls is enough, but that's one
more escalation that we're going to see.
Right now, if you break down the throughput of the superchargers, right?
The V3 superchargers are only 90 kilowatts allocated per stall.
when the entire site is full.
V4 is going to double that, right?
A lot of these Electrify America, ChargePoint, EVgo sites, their power
levels are being ramped up.
So when Walter was saying, hey, look, you're gonna be spending way more time
than you would in a car, are you really?
Like when I travel a lot and when I stop at places to plug in my Bolt EV, it is
very common.
that I look around the parking lot, see all of the gas cars that are stopped at
the same location, the same Denny's, Starbucks, whatever it happens to be, and
when I go to my car to unplug to leave 30 minutes later, a majority of those gas
cars are still where they were when I arrived.
So I don't know that we're actually going to see that same sort of level, right?
You miss all of the people who pull into a gas station, fill up for five minutes.
and then pull into an empty stall because someone was yelling at them over the PA to
move their car, right?
So we miss all of the times that people are actually dwelling 15 to 20 to 30
minutes, even at a gas station or a travel closet.
So I don't know that I buy the idea that we're dwelling longer at these DC
chargers, especially at travel stops.
And that's the one area where I see us needing
a one -to -one ratio of high -powered DC charging stalls to gas pumps.
But if you run those numbers, the United States only has 150 ,000 gas stations
around, only an average of six to eight pumps per gas station, and yet they're
telling us we need millions of DC fast chargers.
To me, something doesn't match up there, and I think...
I think they're overestimating or maybe they're estimating the need for DC fast
chargers based on 200 mile EVs that are only able to go 100 miles between a
reasonable DC fast charging stop.
So they're making eight to 10 to 12 stops on an 800, 900 mile trip.
Whereas in the future, I could see those trips happening in, you know, three or
four stops.
Look at the Silverado EV, and that was the 3WT that they drove coast to coast, and
they made nine stops, nine stops to go 2 ,400 miles.
So it's...
agree with you on that.
My biggest issue with that vehicle is we just got to get better weight, more energy
dense batteries, which is coming along, but that's yeah.
And the efficiency of it.
But the ironic thing is the efficiency being bad with that makes it actually a
very capable.
towing EV just because of the aerodynamics of it, which is always kind of the counter
-intuitive thing you would think.
But I agree with you that I think a lot of the charges have probably been overly
funded into the detriment of rollout, because it slows it down because a lot of
these are waiting for the money.
I also agree with the fact that there's
there's kind of a mindset around.
I think the number you say around the millions to the 150 ,000 or where I think
that is also off.
but I do push back on the fact is there, well, I do understand like, yeah,
sometimes I'll go to a super char.
I've gone to many super chargers, especially on weekdays where I might be
the only one or there's one other person there, but on a weekend or on a big
holiday weekend, it'll be full.
Sometimes there's even a weight.
Rarely there's a weight, but it'll be.
three quarters full pretty commonly.
And I do think it's very similar to a gas station or gas.
There's, I can think of plenty of times I've gone, I'm the only person there.
I fill up real quick and there's been plenty of times too, where even in the
Tesla thing, when I'm going there, it's saying like, there's like five open.
Well, I get there and there's only two or three now.
So I definitely would push back.
I get that perception, but I think it's a little bit more perception versus reality.
At the same time, I totally understand why Tesla does want to open it up because
then, yeah, they can make even more money given their volume and how many they have
of getting more throughput of vehicles there, hopefully.
And I think one of the other things you mentioned around overbuilding, especially
when you think of like lower income and kind of like some of the metrics for some
of the builds is right now, hopefully this will change, but it's just so hard and so
uncommon for level two to be part of.
multifamily or all these other housing things that maybe you can get away with a
couple of cars, but especially once you start getting like the apartment complex
side of stuff, they might, it's, it just hasn't really been executed well at scale.
Hopefully that changes.
And so I think that that's where I'd push back that like, I kind of get what you're
saying about like the millions are probably too much, but I think we still
need to see a pretty big ramp to cover for a lot of EV drivers that aren't driving
EVs yet.
And that,
But that also kind of goes back to the inherent issue.
And I think why I don't really expect there to be a good value proposition for a
lot of the other car automakers getting into EV charging is that so much of the
costs and the ongoing upkeep is to make pretty thin margins.
And that's why gas stations and like Flying J and these, they don't make money
off gas.
They make money off upsells.
And so I see the big competitors and long -term success for EV charging to be the
flying J's and pilots and stuff like that.
Yeah, well, and you know, just as an anecdote, the longest that 500 mile
regular 500 mile trip that I do through California took was a little over 15
hours.
That wasn't a WRX on Thanksgiving.
So just getting to a gas pump took 45 minutes.
So is...
too.
So that surge is true of both infrastructures.
And that's why I'm saying we're not seeing them building gas stations to support a
million person surge of I -5 on a single weekend.
But the expectation is we're going to do the same for EVs.
And that to me, I have to question whether that's legitimate.
And I'll just close on this too, is as EV advocates, we have to worry about
the funding and subsidies getting pulled out from under us.
And I'm not talking about government subsidies.
We sometimes overlook how private car ownership has been subsidized by fossil
fuel industries because it's beneficial for them if every American owns two and a
half cars with their white picket fence, commutes everywhere, drives everywhere,
huge parking lots at retail centers.
That's all subsidized and when they're not making money, that's gonna go away.
And so as EV owners, we also have to recognize that the infrastructure that is
supporting our individual car ownership is not necessarily going to continue to be
subsidized after those fossil fuel companies are no longer making the
trillions of dollars that they're making.
So.
and for sure, I think that also kind of goes to like the whole gas tax thing and
the infrastructure for the roads and how do you augment that?
There's definitely some ways I like better than others.
And I think one other thing kind of going back, I think you're 100 % spot on.
And this is something I bring up to a lot of people about waiting at the gas
stations for like 30 minutes.
And I've been guilty of doing it too in my own cars, but.
I think one of the big opportunities is with electrification is being smarter and
you're starting to see it from a little bit.
And I don't want to be Mr.
Protests all the time, but one of my favorite things is the fact that it says,
here are the super chargers.
Here's how many are available.
And now it even tells me how many people are even being routed to the one I'm going
to.
And I think that that is a level of incorporation, like talking about like
having plug in charge and your billing where like,
route planning that figures out, okay, you've got enough to go another five
miles.
Technically, maybe you won't be the fastest charger, but Hey, you won't be
waiting in line for 20 minutes.
And so it's like finding, and that I think that's kind of the software layer of,
figuring out like how to optimize everyone that hasn't, that was never even an option
in the large and the combustion and gas station model.
And that also kind of goes to where you can be smarter about maybe not needing as
many stations and how to do that.
Right.
Well, and that's where Tesla definitely deserves kudos is better than any other
car company.
They provided essentially guidance and tutorials and learning and development.
We would refer to them as scaffolding, right?
They provide their owners with scaffolding.
So you want the best EV experience.
This is how you'll get it.
And they provide it to you.
The issue I have as a complete rogue is that don't tell me what to do.
But I recognize that I'm in the minority, right?
And if...
say that because I'll overwrite it all the time to do my own kind of way to maybe get
places faster.
But I think as you're right, as kind of like that scaffolding as that kind of
holding hand as someone getting into an EV the first time, that's huge.
But once again, even if I say, you know what, I like what you told me, but I'm not
going to go that way.
The fact that I can then see in real time, like, this charger, another 10 miles is
completely unused.
I'm just going to go that and route to it is that kind of level of data that you can
kind of like do through the Electrify America app.
But so much more consistently have I been let down by trying to do that, or it's not
enough.
It's not an accurate display of how many are actually live or correctly running.
But it's where we can go.
ceiling versus floor, right, the floor of the Tesla travel experience is very much
higher than the floor of the travel experience in pretty much any other EV.
The ceiling is probably not that far off, but that ceiling really requires someone
who knows their car, who knows the charging infrastructure.
who doesn't need to rely on a better route planner or whatever.
At that point, if Steve and I are traveling in our non -Tesla EVs, our
experience is probably not going to be too far off of a seasoned Tesla owner who
knows when to override and not to override.
But someone who's brand new to EVs, you throw them in a Bolt EV, a Hyundai Ioniq 5
or a Tesla Model Y,
That person who knows absolutely nothing is going to have a much better experience
than the Tesla Model Y than they will in pretty much any other electric vehicle
that they get into.
So, you know, that is that barrier to entry that's been removed.
sure.
And I think that's kind of an interesting way to look at it as that floor and
ceiling model, because you're right.
Like maybe the floor of the Tesla one's a bit higher than the other experience for
other cars.
But then you compare that to gas and combustion space.
And could you, have there been some that have tried to do some of this stuff?
Yes.
Like Shell had this app and Land Rovers or something a while ago, and it obviously
never took off.
But.
in so many ways, the floor of the electric vehicle driving space and where we are
just across whatever CPO you want to use is like pretty much where the ceiling is
for the gas and combustion space for going on a road trip.
And it's just like, okay, I'm hungry or I got to pull and pull over.
So I'm just going to go this random flying J versus now I can be a little bit more
strategic about it and have that decision and choice that I think is pretty cool.
And once again, does kind of help instead of like,
going to a Costco and waiting 30 to 45 minutes for gas.
I can like, this place is just as cheap, if not cheaper.
And I just go another 10 minutes and I'm fine.
I don't have to deal with it.
like back allies of targets?
no, I, I, yeah, that, that, that's, that could be another whole podcast about, my
issues with electrify America's and Walmart's and some of the other locations
they've chosen.
But, and yeah, this EVCS place I was just, that was not good.
I, I had to, I had to leave.
There was multiple reasons I was leaving.
One was definitely so uncanny, that was there that, I.
Clearly they were having a bad day, but I unfortunately did not have the time,
capital or mental bandwidth to invest in trying to help whatever issue they had
going on.
So.
that's unfortunate.
itself, I think we've had about five different podcasts topics in this
conversation already today, Eric, but I realize we've gone over time and I just
want to say thank you for your time.
And it's been really a great conversation in so many realms, even in the little
areas here and there where we disagree.
There's, it is kind of great just how much overlap we have as EV drivers.
We've kind of seen like,
And maybe I vet too much about how I know what I have been, but I have kind of
reached my bullying points.
Like, yeah, it's been a decade.
Let's figure this out already.
but this has been a great convo.
you, Ian.
Our disagreements are mostly about personal preference.
I mean, how can anybody be right or wrong in that anyway, right?
So, yeah.
And I mean, and that's the thing is like, there's been a lot of times I've taken it,
like I've done a road trip that is like, I, I don't want to be in a rush and I'm
totally in the same mindset with you.
And that's when I'm just like, okay, why don't we have more level two chargers or
like even a 25 kilowatt DC faster?
I don't care.
Just something here that scratches the itch versus having to go to a super
charger or something.
So.
All right.
Well, yeah.
Thank you, Chase.
And I'm sorry, before we do go, like Eric, what's the best way for people who want to
learn more and follow your adventures to connect with you?
Just to, like I said, the YouTube channel, just News Coolum.
You know, I'm trying to post a little bit more frequently.
I haven't been traveling as much, been taking care of some stuff, but I'm writing
up a series of EV fud busting, so yeah, I've got to go rotate my tires.
it for sure.
Yeah, yeah, so hopefully that should shed a little bit of light on some less than
honest actors in the journalistic space.
So, yeah.
am looking forward to that too now.
But Eric, once again, thank you.
And we'll make sure to have a link to that in today's show notes, whether on YouTube
or on the podcast.
So have a great day.
Yeah, thank you so much, Chase.
That's a wrap for this episode of Grid Connections.
A big thank you to Eric Way for sharing his insights and experience with us.
We hope you found our discussion on EV road trip tactics, charging
infrastructure, and the future of electric vehicles as enlightening as we did.
Remember, if you enjoyed this episode, share it with at least one other person
who might find it interesting as well.
It makes a big difference and really does help us.
And please take a moment to leave a positive review on our podcast page.
Your feedback and support are invaluable for us to keep bringing you new guests and
great discussions.
Until next week, this is the Grid Connections podcast signing