1 00:00:00,167 --> 00:00:05,000 < Intro > 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:06,350 – Welcome to Count Me In. 3 00:00:06,350 --> 00:00:10,000 Today, I'm thrilled to have Doug Parker, Assistant Professor of Accounting 4 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:12,339 at Western Carolina University. 5 00:00:12,339 --> 00:00:14,419 And Amanda Marcy, Assistant Professor of Accounting 6 00:00:14,419 --> 00:00:17,390 at the University of Scranton on today's show. 7 00:00:17,390 --> 00:00:21,630 They are authors of the award-winning article, The Value of Civility. 8 00:00:21,630 --> 00:00:24,834 Which examines the important relationships between ethics, 9 00:00:24,834 --> 00:00:28,167 professional standards, and civil behavior in the workplace. 10 00:00:28,689 --> 00:00:31,970 Doug and Amanda will share insightful perspectives from their research, 11 00:00:31,970 --> 00:00:36,789 on how a culture of incivility can negatively impact organizations. 12 00:00:36,789 --> 00:00:39,167 What leaders can do to promote civility, 13 00:00:39,167 --> 00:00:43,000 and advice for handling uncivil bosses or co-workers. 14 00:00:43,510 --> 00:00:45,430 Their expertise provides a crucial framework 15 00:00:45,430 --> 00:00:47,480 for maintaining ethical principles, 16 00:00:47,480 --> 00:00:50,667 while nurturing a respectful and productive work environment. 17 00:00:50,969 --> 00:00:54,500 Doug and Amanda's thought-provoking article underscores why self-awareness, 18 00:00:54,500 --> 00:00:58,167 open communication, and thoughtful leadership are vital for organizations 19 00:00:58,167 --> 00:01:00,019 seeking to uphold integrity. 20 00:01:00,019 --> 00:01:02,949 I'm excited to dive into these critical issues with them. 21 00:01:02,949 --> 00:01:06,000 Please join me in welcoming Doug and Amanda to the show. 22 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:12,333 < Music > 23 00:01:12,333 --> 00:01:16,500 – Well, Amanda and Doug, I'm really excited to have you on the podcast today. 24 00:01:16,500 --> 00:01:20,833 You, guys, are the authors of an article called The Value of Civility, 25 00:01:20,860 --> 00:01:23,333 which is the Curt Verschoor Article of the Year. 26 00:01:23,333 --> 00:01:25,333 And we're really excited to talk about that. 27 00:01:25,333 --> 00:01:30,500 And, so, maybe we can start off by explaining how civility in the workplace 28 00:01:30,500 --> 00:01:35,500 is related to professional ethics, and the ethical principles and standards. 29 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,110 And we're going to be talking a lot about ethics and standards, today. 30 00:01:38,110 --> 00:01:41,920 But maybe we can start a little bit about maybe how civility works 31 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:43,689 and maybe what is civility. 32 00:01:43,689 --> 00:01:46,833 Because it's not a word we hear every day in every workplace. 33 00:01:47,166 --> 00:01:48,833 – Well, it's definitely not something you hear every day, 34 00:01:48,833 --> 00:01:50,833 but it's something you witness every day. 35 00:01:50,833 --> 00:01:54,000 Especially when you watch media or any news outlets, 36 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:57,166 you'll see incivility at its best. 37 00:01:57,166 --> 00:02:00,820 But the basic concept there is it's, basically, an exchange 38 00:02:00,820 --> 00:02:05,320 of seemingly inconsequential or inconsiderate words, 39 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,666 that violate the conventional norms of workplace conduct. 40 00:02:08,666 --> 00:02:13,140 In other words, it's not, necessarily, direct attacks. 41 00:02:13,140 --> 00:02:16,499 It's more of texting on your cell phone while someone's trying to convey a point 42 00:02:16,499 --> 00:02:19,999 or real low intensity behavior meant to harm others, 43 00:02:19,999 --> 00:02:23,280 without maybe even recognizing that you're doing it. 44 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:26,999 Sometimes it can be words that we say that can harm others. 45 00:02:26,999 --> 00:02:31,166 Derogatory comments, ignoring their opinions, belittling their opinions, 46 00:02:31,166 --> 00:02:33,499 I think, is a big part of incivility. 47 00:02:33,499 --> 00:02:36,390 And we do witness it quite a bit in everyday society. 48 00:02:36,390 --> 00:02:38,560 Hopefully not in everyday workplace society, 49 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:40,833 but you see it a lot in terms of society. 50 00:02:40,833 --> 00:02:43,629 Go to the counter and just watch people do their orders. 51 00:02:43,629 --> 00:02:46,780 Where something's done wrong or not as quick as they think, 52 00:02:46,780 --> 00:02:51,739 and you'll see those uncivil acts begin to take place in there. 53 00:02:51,739 --> 00:02:53,600 Any additional thoughts on that, Amanda? 54 00:02:53,666 --> 00:02:57,166 – I would say one thing to remember is that ethics contributes to how, 55 00:02:57,166 --> 00:03:00,332 like Doug said, we treat each other on a daily basis. 56 00:03:00,332 --> 00:03:04,666 So civility, at its heart, focuses on honesty, fairness, self control, and prudence. 57 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:08,666 Therefore, if we don't have civility, then we can never truly act ethically. 58 00:03:08,666 --> 00:03:13,499 – It definitely requires to be mindful of a place, time, and how you speak. 59 00:03:13,499 --> 00:03:17,490 I think we must concentrate on what we say and how we say it. 60 00:03:17,490 --> 00:03:21,999 So I found this neat, little, article by Joan Dubinsky, from Clemson University, 61 00:03:21,999 --> 00:03:25,832 and she stated that, "Civility and ethics are cousins, they're not twins." 62 00:03:25,832 --> 00:03:28,310 In other words, they're not the identical same thing. 63 00:03:28,665 --> 00:03:32,090 In other words, you can be civil and still act unethically. 64 00:03:32,090 --> 00:03:35,220 So you can take an unethical course, but do it very civil. 65 00:03:35,220 --> 00:03:39,400 So in the South we say, "Bless your heart" that's uncivil words. 66 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:43,870 It's meant as a derogatory term, but it's done in a very civil manner. 67 00:03:43,870 --> 00:03:47,780 So you can act in an unethical manner and still act civilly. 68 00:03:47,780 --> 00:03:52,079 However, you can't be uncivil and be ethical, at the same time. 69 00:03:52,079 --> 00:03:53,590 So it doesn't work both ways. 70 00:03:53,590 --> 00:03:57,665 So if you're uncivil, then, you're definitely not acting civil 71 00:03:57,665 --> 00:03:59,830 or ethically toward others. 72 00:03:59,830 --> 00:04:04,998 Treating other with respect and care is really foundational to ethical leadership. 73 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:08,332 Leading in a manner that respects the rights and dignities of others. 74 00:04:08,332 --> 00:04:12,800 – Mh-hmm, yes, it sounds like everybody should be listening to this conversation. 75 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:15,665 Especially if we look at just how people treat each other 76 00:04:15,665 --> 00:04:24,665 in the streets, in Twitter, to each other, and how they talk to each other anywhere. 77 00:04:24,700 --> 00:04:29,150 This is a wider conversation, than just the workplace. 78 00:04:29,150 --> 00:04:31,030 But if we look at the workplace, 79 00:04:31,030 --> 00:04:35,832 how can that lack of a civility affect a professional workplace. 80 00:04:35,832 --> 00:04:37,165 If we don't have those things? 81 00:04:37,165 --> 00:04:38,430 I think you've kind of covered that. 82 00:04:38,430 --> 00:04:42,498 But if we look at just a workplace, how can it affect if we don't have those things? 83 00:04:42,665 --> 00:04:46,498 – One thing to consider is it will, obviously, break down workplace harmony. 84 00:04:46,498 --> 00:04:49,831 Because you could have employees attacking each other, 85 00:04:49,831 --> 00:04:51,998 I don't want to say physically attacking each other. 86 00:04:51,998 --> 00:04:55,665 But attacking each other, maybe they're physically attacking each other, 87 00:04:55,665 --> 00:04:56,331 I don't know. 88 00:04:56,331 --> 00:05:01,998 Either subtly or intentionally which, again, can result in low employee morale, 89 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:05,230 decreased productivity, stuff of that nature. 90 00:05:05,230 --> 00:05:07,165 It could also result, in the end of the day, of employees 91 00:05:07,165 --> 00:05:08,980 having less organizational commitment. 92 00:05:08,980 --> 00:05:10,880 So they may be more apt to leave the firm 93 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:12,810 just because they're not comfortable being there anymore, 94 00:05:12,810 --> 00:05:14,165 in that type of environment. 95 00:05:14,331 --> 00:05:17,331 – Yes, and if you really read the paper and look at some of the comments, 96 00:05:17,331 --> 00:05:21,665 so I'll go to that, it says that, "The impact of incivility, it makes you 97 00:05:21,665 --> 00:05:27,831 less motivated to do a good job or get a job done as fast as possible." 98 00:05:27,831 --> 00:05:30,664 Well, in that are you acting in the most ethical manner? 99 00:05:30,664 --> 00:05:33,331 I mean, if your motivation to do a good job, that's not really ethical, 100 00:05:33,331 --> 00:05:37,164 especially, for your clients or for your employer in that. 101 00:05:37,164 --> 00:05:39,498 We also noticed that supervisor incivility 102 00:05:39,498 --> 00:05:43,680 had a much greater impact on job satisfaction, 103 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:45,560 than does co-worker incivility. 104 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:47,550 So when you go from the top down, 105 00:05:47,550 --> 00:05:50,664 it seemed to impact our workplace morale 106 00:05:50,664 --> 00:05:55,331 and our willingness to do a good job for the firm or for your clients in that. 107 00:05:55,460 --> 00:05:56,664 Because if you're rushing through, 108 00:05:56,664 --> 00:05:59,331 you're definitely not doing a good job, in that 109 00:05:59,331 --> 00:06:01,331 which is part of professionalism there. 110 00:06:01,470 --> 00:06:05,831 – So maybe this next question, we can look at it from two different perspectives. 111 00:06:05,949 --> 00:06:09,831 We can look at things, maybe, you guys can address how can leaders promote 112 00:06:09,930 --> 00:06:12,250 a culture of civility in a workplace? 113 00:06:12,250 --> 00:06:16,664 And then as a follow up, what if you're somebody who is underneath 114 00:06:16,664 --> 00:06:19,970 a leader who is not acting in a civil manner? 115 00:06:19,970 --> 00:06:21,664 What if somebody is not acting in that way? 116 00:06:21,664 --> 00:06:24,639 So, first, how can you promote it as a leader? 117 00:06:24,639 --> 00:06:27,389 But then as an employee, what if you're under that person 118 00:06:27,389 --> 00:06:30,997 who is acting in that manner; how can you address that? 119 00:06:30,997 --> 00:06:33,164 – Amanda, you want to go first or you want me to take it? 120 00:06:33,164 --> 00:06:34,664 – Sure, I can take it. 121 00:06:34,664 --> 00:06:38,220 So, obviously, tone at the top is huge in organizations. 122 00:06:38,220 --> 00:06:39,360 So leaders need to set a tone 123 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:43,149 that establishes employee expectations, as it relates to civility. 124 00:06:43,149 --> 00:06:44,360 And, then, they also need to demonstrate 125 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:46,449 what civility means within their organization. 126 00:06:46,449 --> 00:06:49,990 So more of like a monkey see, monkey do type of situation. 127 00:06:49,990 --> 00:06:52,520 So one way that they can establish employee expectations 128 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:54,569 is they can do it as part of the hiring stage. 129 00:06:54,569 --> 00:06:59,664 So they should be spelling out, in job descriptions, what's expected 130 00:06:59,664 --> 00:07:01,550 from a conduct perspective. 131 00:07:01,550 --> 00:07:03,830 And then when they're going through hiring, they should be asking 132 00:07:03,830 --> 00:07:07,497 the types of questions that gauge if there's any triggers, within this individual, 133 00:07:07,539 --> 00:07:10,830 that could make them more apt to engage in incivil acts, in the workplace. 134 00:07:10,830 --> 00:07:13,620 Because that could negatively impact, like we already said, 135 00:07:13,620 --> 00:07:15,889 the work culture, the work environment. 136 00:07:15,889 --> 00:07:19,330 Another thing, like I said, that leaders should be focusing on 137 00:07:19,330 --> 00:07:21,497 is modeling civil behavior. 138 00:07:21,497 --> 00:07:25,210 So making sure they're portraying to their employees, 139 00:07:25,210 --> 00:07:27,830 around them, what's expected of them. 140 00:07:27,830 --> 00:07:30,770 They should be defining civility for the organization. 141 00:07:30,770 --> 00:07:34,190 So they could, actually, put into company policies what civility is, 142 00:07:34,190 --> 00:07:35,830 and what the expectations are for employees. 143 00:07:35,830 --> 00:07:38,830 So, essentially, when employees sign on, sign their employment contracts, 144 00:07:38,830 --> 00:07:41,830 they're signing on to agree to whatever those policies are. 145 00:07:41,830 --> 00:07:45,669 Another thing that leaders could do, firms could do, 146 00:07:45,669 --> 00:07:49,830 is to set up some type of a program. 147 00:07:49,830 --> 00:07:53,663 Where there are rewards and consequences for civil 148 00:07:53,663 --> 00:07:56,669 versus uncivil engagement from employees. 149 00:07:56,669 --> 00:07:59,330 So they could be rewarding civil behaviors in some way. 150 00:07:59,330 --> 00:08:04,997 They could have certain consequences, or punishments for any uncivil behaviors, 151 00:08:04,997 --> 00:08:07,163 that employees could be taking part in. 152 00:08:07,163 --> 00:08:12,330 Additionally, as part of firm trainings, or even webinars, or providing other tools 153 00:08:12,330 --> 00:08:16,996 that could help individuals within the firm bolster their engagement. 154 00:08:16,996 --> 00:08:20,163 As it relates to civility, and have them act less incivil 155 00:08:20,163 --> 00:08:22,659 against the co-workers around them. 156 00:08:22,830 --> 00:08:25,370 – And, as leaders, we have to check ourselves as well, 157 00:08:25,370 --> 00:08:26,570 I think, that's very important. 158 00:08:26,570 --> 00:08:31,163 We can do training to others, but, sort of, reflect, "Have I acted in a manner..." 159 00:08:31,163 --> 00:08:33,729 Because, sometimes, we may not realize how our actions are. 160 00:08:33,729 --> 00:08:35,250 So survey your employees. 161 00:08:35,250 --> 00:08:40,163 Ask your employees, "Have I said anything that you felt demeaned you 162 00:08:40,163 --> 00:08:42,663 or didn't take your opinion into account?" 163 00:08:42,663 --> 00:08:46,149 Because if we do that 360 view, of ourselves, 164 00:08:46,149 --> 00:08:49,829 we may think we're acting civilly, if that's a word, I don't know, we'll go with it. 165 00:08:49,829 --> 00:08:52,496 But, in essence, we may be saying things 166 00:08:52,496 --> 00:08:55,700 or doing things that are perceived as uncivil. 167 00:08:55,700 --> 00:08:57,030 For example, maybe, during a meeting, 168 00:08:57,030 --> 00:08:59,720 you're texting while your employee is trying to give their opinion. 169 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:01,500 While you may not think anything of it, 170 00:09:01,500 --> 00:09:04,279 or you may not even care if somebody else does it to you, 171 00:09:04,279 --> 00:09:05,649 it may impact them negatively. 172 00:09:05,649 --> 00:09:10,829 So having that open communication, would really help establish that as well. 173 00:09:10,829 --> 00:09:13,663 I mean, we do annual fire safety training, for example. 174 00:09:13,663 --> 00:09:17,663 Why can't we have an annual reminder of civil actions and how 175 00:09:17,663 --> 00:09:20,996 we should treat others, in the workplace? 176 00:09:21,329 --> 00:09:24,560 – Feeding off of Doug's communication comment there. 177 00:09:24,560 --> 00:09:27,230 Another thought that came up through a lot of the research 178 00:09:27,230 --> 00:09:30,829 that I was reading through, as we were putting together this paper 179 00:09:30,829 --> 00:09:35,130 was that firms and organizations should consider including civility, 180 00:09:35,130 --> 00:09:37,330 as part of their feedback loop process. 181 00:09:37,330 --> 00:09:39,662 So when they are doing their coaching of employees 182 00:09:39,662 --> 00:09:43,662 or doing performance evaluations at year end or even, periodically, 183 00:09:43,662 --> 00:09:47,490 throughout the year, civility should be built into that. 184 00:09:47,490 --> 00:09:50,662 So they should be assessing whether or not the employee 185 00:09:50,662 --> 00:09:54,280 is meeting the expectations that the firm has set out. 186 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:55,649 And if they're not, they should be coaching them 187 00:09:55,662 --> 00:09:59,400 through how they can improve themselves, as an employee. 188 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:02,829 Make an effort to make it part of your corporate culture or your firm culture. 189 00:10:02,900 --> 00:10:06,162 In accounting, we have firms, a lot of times, so work to build that in 190 00:10:06,162 --> 00:10:08,162 and just make it part of your everyday culture. 191 00:10:08,162 --> 00:10:10,569 Where are we at with that respect to others? 192 00:10:10,569 --> 00:10:15,329 – So what if you are an employee who has a boss, or you see 193 00:10:15,329 --> 00:10:17,329 the whole head of your organization, 194 00:10:17,329 --> 00:10:20,995 you're, like, "These people are not treating us in a civil manner." 195 00:10:20,995 --> 00:10:23,070 And everything we've been discussing. 196 00:10:23,070 --> 00:10:25,190 How can you address that as an employee? 197 00:10:25,190 --> 00:10:28,920 Sometimes it's hard to approach people who are acting in that manner. 198 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:30,162 What would you guys suggest 199 00:10:30,162 --> 00:10:33,920 in a workplace, especially, if you're in a situation like, "I can't get fired, 200 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:35,620 but I can't also work in this environment. 201 00:10:35,620 --> 00:10:36,829 What do I do?" 202 00:10:36,829 --> 00:10:40,662 – Well, first, definitely, try not to take it personally. 203 00:10:40,662 --> 00:10:44,460 I think, a lot of times, personal actions have nothing to do with the individual. 204 00:10:44,460 --> 00:10:47,000 So take a step back and say, "Okay, what caused this?" 205 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:48,995 Especially, if it's out of the norm for an individual. 206 00:10:48,995 --> 00:10:54,162 If, all of a sudden, an individual is acting a way that's just not the norm. 207 00:10:54,162 --> 00:10:57,090 I think, we have to take a step back and, definitely, not take it personal. 208 00:10:57,090 --> 00:11:00,162 I know we've all heard the term "It's business, not personal". 209 00:11:00,162 --> 00:11:01,709 That's true, in many respects. 210 00:11:01,709 --> 00:11:04,480 So take a step back and just say, "Okay, was this directed at me? 211 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,180 Did they intend it toward me? 212 00:11:07,180 --> 00:11:10,495 What impacts in their life, are they having that may have caused that action?" 213 00:11:10,579 --> 00:11:15,828 Because when we're in increased stress situations, or financial issues, or fatigue. 214 00:11:15,828 --> 00:11:18,495 Working 80 hours a week, can make us say and do things 215 00:11:18,495 --> 00:11:20,500 that maybe are out of our norm. 216 00:11:20,500 --> 00:11:22,480 So what's the situation that's taking in? 217 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:24,990 Don't take it personally in that respect. 218 00:11:24,990 --> 00:11:27,720 Sometimes it is personal, but try not to, at first, 219 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:30,328 until you understand the causing, the source of it. 220 00:11:30,328 --> 00:11:32,995 – Another thing that an individual could, potentially, do 221 00:11:32,995 --> 00:11:37,660 is, kind of, feeding off of not taking it personally, is taking a step back. 222 00:11:37,660 --> 00:11:41,661 Maybe you're overreacting a bit, and maybe you need to calm down 223 00:11:41,661 --> 00:11:45,070 before you react in a way that could be taken as incivil. 224 00:11:45,070 --> 00:11:50,740 Because it creates a circular effect, if you have that type of a reaction. 225 00:11:50,740 --> 00:11:54,328 Another thing, if this is an individual that, maybe, you have to work with, all the time, 226 00:11:54,380 --> 00:11:56,495 and they are always acting in this way. 227 00:11:56,495 --> 00:11:58,828 Maybe you need to set up some personal boundaries, 228 00:11:58,828 --> 00:12:00,390 and maybe you have to talk to a superior 229 00:12:00,390 --> 00:12:02,800 and be like, "Oh, maybe, I shouldn't work with this person, 230 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:04,220 we just don't seem to get along." 231 00:12:04,220 --> 00:12:06,470 Or something of that nature. 232 00:12:06,470 --> 00:12:09,828 So that you put yourself in more of a safe and comfortable position. 233 00:12:09,828 --> 00:12:12,149 And, at the end of the day, if it escalates too much, 234 00:12:12,149 --> 00:12:13,620 then you have to reach out for help. 235 00:12:13,620 --> 00:12:16,449 Either reaching out to HR, reaching out to somebody else, 236 00:12:16,449 --> 00:12:19,370 within the leadership team to discuss that situation. 237 00:12:19,370 --> 00:12:23,661 So they can help you to diffuse any retaliation that could occur 238 00:12:23,661 --> 00:12:26,161 as a result of this experience. 239 00:12:26,430 --> 00:12:29,161 – Do you think that in today's environment, 240 00:12:29,161 --> 00:12:32,161 there are so many different movements happening, that have been happening, 241 00:12:32,161 --> 00:12:35,828 over the years, that have come to the rise like Me Too, Black Lives Matter, 242 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:37,089 and those types of things. 243 00:12:37,089 --> 00:12:41,494 And when we were talking about civility, do you think that people have become afraid 244 00:12:41,579 --> 00:12:44,828 to share their opinions because, "Oh, no, will it offend this people?" 245 00:12:44,828 --> 00:12:45,980 "Will it offend these people?" 246 00:12:45,980 --> 00:12:47,410 "Am I afraid to say this thing?" 247 00:12:47,410 --> 00:12:51,161 Do you think it has created a culture where people are afraid to share 248 00:12:51,170 --> 00:12:54,494 because they're afraid that they're going to offend too many people? 249 00:12:54,827 --> 00:12:56,494 – I personally, definitely, think that's true. 250 00:12:56,494 --> 00:13:01,010 Even from an academic perspective, standing in front of a classroom. 251 00:13:01,010 --> 00:13:04,661 I feel like I have to filter pretty much every sentence that comes out of my mouth 252 00:13:04,661 --> 00:13:07,494 because I'm afraid I might, unintentionally, offend somebody. 253 00:13:07,494 --> 00:13:10,350 Especially because I tend to be more of an outspoken individual. 254 00:13:10,350 --> 00:13:17,161 So that's been, definitely, the last year or two a learning point for me. 255 00:13:17,161 --> 00:13:20,994 And it's just, like I said, trying to filter so I don't, unintentionally, 256 00:13:20,994 --> 00:13:23,494 because it's never intentional, unintentionally, say something 257 00:13:23,494 --> 00:13:25,661 that somebody just might take the wrong direction. 258 00:13:25,827 --> 00:13:27,490 – And I think we need to work on our ability, 259 00:13:27,490 --> 00:13:29,440 if someone does say something that's off. 260 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,494 To go and speak to that person because maybe they don't realize. 261 00:13:32,494 --> 00:13:35,660 You got to remember, you're working in a multigenerational setting. 262 00:13:35,660 --> 00:13:37,160 Academia is a multigenerational. 263 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:39,770 Corporations are multigenerational. 264 00:13:39,770 --> 00:13:44,660 And terms that may be perfectly fine, are no longer perfectly fine to some people. 265 00:13:44,660 --> 00:13:47,494 So instead of getting upset, or yelling, 266 00:13:47,494 --> 00:13:50,339 or screaming or calling them names, as a response. 267 00:13:50,339 --> 00:13:51,339 Maybe we need to step back 268 00:13:51,339 --> 00:13:54,660 and say, "Let's have a conversation on what that means today, 269 00:13:54,660 --> 00:13:57,850 and how we interpret that, and what did you mean by it?" 270 00:13:57,850 --> 00:14:00,494 And have those conversations, where we can actually speak 271 00:14:00,494 --> 00:14:03,660 to each other and disagree and, maybe, agree to disagree. 272 00:14:03,660 --> 00:14:07,494 Without getting to the point that our response is uncivil, 273 00:14:07,494 --> 00:14:10,940 to the person that we think has offended us in that manner. 274 00:14:10,940 --> 00:14:14,660 So that's something, as a society, we probably do need to work on a little bit. 275 00:14:14,780 --> 00:14:18,327 The ability to communicate differing thoughts without resulting 276 00:14:18,327 --> 00:14:20,240 to uncivil behavior in that. 277 00:14:20,493 --> 00:14:23,327 – Because, I think, unfortunately, as a result, we've become too quick 278 00:14:23,327 --> 00:14:25,630 to, quote-unquote, "Cancel people" 279 00:14:25,630 --> 00:14:28,380 as opposed to having just conversations with them. 280 00:14:28,380 --> 00:14:31,827 And I don't think anybody wants to be remembered by the worst thing 281 00:14:31,827 --> 00:14:35,160 they've ever said because we are humans and we all can grow. 282 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,660 And, I think, if we become too quick to cancel and forget about conversations. 283 00:14:38,660 --> 00:14:43,493 We forget that humans are ever-changing creatures and we grow, over time. 284 00:14:43,509 --> 00:14:45,720 And this whole idea of canceling somebody 285 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:47,649 just because of one thing they've said, 286 00:14:47,649 --> 00:14:51,010 as opposed to allowing people opportunities to grow, 287 00:14:51,010 --> 00:14:54,160 is a problem in our society, unfortunately. 288 00:14:54,326 --> 00:14:57,493 – It can be, and if you look back, I think, we also have to be careful 289 00:14:57,493 --> 00:14:59,826 about pushing our social norms, today, 290 00:14:59,826 --> 00:15:02,493 on people 30 years ago or 40 years ago 291 00:15:02,493 --> 00:15:06,493 because they were different acceptable behaviors then. 292 00:15:06,493 --> 00:15:07,993 And to say that you did that one time 293 00:15:07,993 --> 00:15:11,326 makes you this person is not, necessarily, true. 294 00:15:11,326 --> 00:15:14,670 And I'm just thankful that we didn't have cell phones when I was a kid. 295 00:15:14,670 --> 00:15:17,160 When I was 16, there was no such thing as instant recording. 296 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:20,660 They had the big box on their arm, so you knew you were being recorded. 297 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:23,029 So a lot of those things wouldn't come out. 298 00:15:23,029 --> 00:15:25,300 So we have to be careful with social norms. 299 00:15:25,300 --> 00:15:28,660 What's acceptable now, may have been acceptable back then or not. 300 00:15:28,660 --> 00:15:32,326 But we can't push today's norms on people in the past, so to speak. 301 00:15:32,709 --> 00:15:36,493 – So have either of you ever witnessed a situation where a lack of civility 302 00:15:36,493 --> 00:15:39,826 compromised ethical principles, in a workplace? 303 00:15:39,950 --> 00:15:42,560 And if you did witness it, how was it handled? 304 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:44,000 How did you address it? 305 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:45,326 How did it happen? 306 00:15:45,659 --> 00:15:47,550 – I'll pass this one over to Doug because I know, personally, 307 00:15:47,550 --> 00:15:51,826 that he's dealt with this, previously, in a past employment. 308 00:15:51,826 --> 00:15:56,326 That's what sparked his interest in this topic, for this article. 309 00:15:56,326 --> 00:15:58,993 – It did, the topic really came about, one, 310 00:15:58,993 --> 00:16:03,060 you start to see it a lot in society and, especially, with politics, 311 00:16:03,060 --> 00:16:08,159 I hate to say that, but you see it a lot in politics and governance of our country. 312 00:16:08,159 --> 00:16:12,659 And, so, as a young accountant, and by young, I mean fresh out of school, 313 00:16:12,659 --> 00:16:14,029 first accounting career. 314 00:16:14,029 --> 00:16:16,410 I don't want to say too much because if someone does hear this, 315 00:16:16,410 --> 00:16:19,620 that may have been there back in those days, they don't relate it. 316 00:16:19,620 --> 00:16:22,060 So I really didn't understand maybe corporate norms 317 00:16:22,060 --> 00:16:23,250 or how people should act. 318 00:16:23,250 --> 00:16:27,992 So I worked for a smaller company, and the manager that they hired in, 319 00:16:27,992 --> 00:16:30,659 had a tendency to be what we would label as uncivil today. 320 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,080 Back then I don't know that we would have said it's uncivil. 321 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:36,826 But it happened, I think, a lot more than what you would consider today. 322 00:16:36,826 --> 00:16:39,260 But just the terms, derogatory. 323 00:16:39,260 --> 00:16:42,790 Would say negative remarks, very negative in the personality. 324 00:16:42,790 --> 00:16:46,492 And once that began happening, I noticed the culture really started to change. 325 00:16:46,492 --> 00:16:47,990 Employees were less happy. 326 00:16:47,990 --> 00:16:52,159 Our productivity did go down so much so that the product that we were selling, 327 00:16:52,159 --> 00:16:54,159 at the time, we started to see decrease. 328 00:16:54,159 --> 00:16:57,659 I don't want to say the industry I was in, and they would say, "Oh, I'm just joking." 329 00:16:57,790 --> 00:17:01,492 But even at that, saying you're just joking doesn't, necessarily, make everything fine, 330 00:17:01,540 --> 00:17:02,920 especially, in a workplace setting. 331 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:06,650 It's not like you're sitting around the table with your buds, so to speak. 332 00:17:06,650 --> 00:17:07,492 So the way that we reacted, 333 00:17:07,492 --> 00:17:11,470 our work activities became more about how the manager was acting. 334 00:17:11,470 --> 00:17:13,829 So if we went out to dinner, as a group, instead of team building, 335 00:17:13,829 --> 00:17:16,659 we were sitting there complaining about management, 336 00:17:16,659 --> 00:17:18,659 and how they were speaking and acting. 337 00:17:18,659 --> 00:17:20,825 So you did see that drastic decline. 338 00:17:20,825 --> 00:17:23,325 The production went down so much so that we ended up 339 00:17:23,325 --> 00:17:26,870 with only four employees left, and we had 27. 340 00:17:26,870 --> 00:17:30,440 So production, went down so much, we had to lay off everyone. 341 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:33,270 As a 22 year old, I didn't really know what was going on in that. 342 00:17:33,270 --> 00:17:36,299 Luckily, I was one of the four remained or unluckily, 343 00:17:36,299 --> 00:17:38,559 I don't know which one you would prefer to say there. 344 00:17:38,559 --> 00:17:41,440 I wasn't let go and lost my job because I needed income. 345 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:43,450 But there was four left when I quit, 346 00:17:43,450 --> 00:17:45,620 about two months later because I was just done. 347 00:17:45,620 --> 00:17:48,160 My stress levels were so high from that instance. 348 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:50,992 I was in the hospital, at 22, thinking I was having a heart attack. 349 00:17:50,992 --> 00:17:54,020 Because I didn't know what stress attacks were or panic attacks. 350 00:17:54,020 --> 00:17:57,658 So it really had not only an impact on just the organization, but even 351 00:17:57,658 --> 00:18:02,492 my personal health and wellbeing, and the day I quit, I felt 100% better. 352 00:18:02,610 --> 00:18:04,470 So it was like a weight was lifted. 353 00:18:04,470 --> 00:18:07,325 So I think those situations can have consequences, 354 00:18:07,325 --> 00:18:08,325 especially, if they're extreme. 355 00:18:08,325 --> 00:18:12,492 Where it's happening a lot, can not only have consequences to the company, 356 00:18:12,590 --> 00:18:16,491 but also to the individual's just wellbeing, in that respect. 357 00:18:16,825 --> 00:18:21,491 – Because it promotes just this toxic atmosphere that just festers and festers, 358 00:18:21,491 --> 00:18:24,325 and grows and grows, and we know what toxicity does. 359 00:18:24,325 --> 00:18:27,325 It doesn't kill you right away, but it kills over time. 360 00:18:27,325 --> 00:18:30,520 And, so, a toxic workout environment can do that 361 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:32,325 and your example, Doug, shows that. 362 00:18:32,325 --> 00:18:34,039 And I've been in work experiences 363 00:18:34,039 --> 00:18:36,809 where a lot of people disliked one person, 364 00:18:36,809 --> 00:18:39,490 and then instead of addressing the behavior or addressing it, 365 00:18:39,490 --> 00:18:41,330 we all just sat around talking about that person, 366 00:18:41,330 --> 00:18:44,158 and it doesn't help, it never helps. 367 00:18:44,158 --> 00:18:45,840 And until you're outside of the situation, 368 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:47,900 you realize, wait, "That was not a good situation. 369 00:18:47,900 --> 00:18:49,991 I shouldn't have been doing that." 370 00:18:49,991 --> 00:18:53,658 – And as a 22 year old, you don't really know, necessarily, what you should do. 371 00:18:53,690 --> 00:18:57,324 So I think a lot of times the younger generation may take that 372 00:18:57,324 --> 00:18:58,880 in a way that causes more harm to them. 373 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:01,158 I mean, if you've been around it for a while, you sort of, 374 00:19:01,158 --> 00:19:04,324 I don't know, become hard hearted, I guess you'd take it as it comes. 375 00:19:04,409 --> 00:19:08,409 But being a younger individual, not having experienced that in life, 376 00:19:08,409 --> 00:19:11,290 it made it a tough situation to be in. 377 00:19:11,290 --> 00:19:14,400 And you notice you act differently than what you should, necessarily. 378 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:18,280 And I think it's harder for us when it's management than it is a co-worker. 379 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:20,470 You can distance yourself from a coworker pretty much. 380 00:19:20,470 --> 00:19:22,220 But when it comes to your day-to-day management, 381 00:19:22,220 --> 00:19:24,299 where you have to deal with them constantly. 382 00:19:24,299 --> 00:19:26,658 And they're your superior and you may not know, 383 00:19:26,658 --> 00:19:29,824 well, they have experience, maybe this is just how it's supposed to be 384 00:19:29,824 --> 00:19:31,770 as a young professional first coming out. 385 00:19:31,770 --> 00:19:33,991 So it's very important that we understand 386 00:19:33,991 --> 00:19:37,657 what proper behavior should be and then how to react to it. 387 00:19:37,657 --> 00:19:40,657 – Mh-hmm, I know some organizations have ethics hotlines. 388 00:19:40,657 --> 00:19:44,640 That you can call in and address ethical behaviors like that. 389 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:48,670 I mean, it's important to know your organization's HR management 390 00:19:48,670 --> 00:19:52,630 and all those things, and see if there's a way to address it, in a way. 391 00:19:52,630 --> 00:19:55,100 Especially, if you're afraid of retaliation. 392 00:19:55,324 --> 00:19:59,150 – Yes, that's a big thing, worrying that management may end up taking it out. 393 00:19:59,150 --> 00:20:03,470 Or how well does each layer of management know each other? 394 00:20:03,470 --> 00:20:07,991 I mean, if they're really good buddies, or they go golfing, or to fashion events, 395 00:20:07,991 --> 00:20:10,080 or whatever they do on their free time. 396 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:11,991 If you then turn around and go above, 397 00:20:11,991 --> 00:20:15,390 employees may be fear retaliation even further up, 398 00:20:15,390 --> 00:20:17,657 than just their direct management in that. 399 00:20:17,890 --> 00:20:19,820 – So I think we've pretty much shown 400 00:20:19,820 --> 00:20:25,157 what it means to have how a civil workplace or incivil workplace 401 00:20:25,157 --> 00:20:29,657 can negatively affect an organization's culture. 402 00:20:29,657 --> 00:20:32,824 So, obviously, if you're having a civil workplace, 403 00:20:32,824 --> 00:20:35,240 it can very positively affect the culture. 404 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,824 But how can organizations ensure that their employee are adhering 405 00:20:38,824 --> 00:20:40,490 to ethical principles and standards? 406 00:20:40,490 --> 00:20:42,880 Because I know that it's not an easy thing. 407 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:46,157 But how can you do that, to not create the atmosphere that you were in, Doug? 408 00:20:46,324 --> 00:20:49,990 – Well, one is, definitely, we were talking earlier self-observe. 409 00:20:49,990 --> 00:20:51,720 Just to make sure that we're not part of the problem, 410 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:52,990 that we're part of the solution. 411 00:20:53,490 --> 00:20:56,157 But they can monitor and observe, a lot happens. 412 00:20:56,157 --> 00:20:57,990 I know it's a little bit more difficult in today's world, 413 00:20:57,990 --> 00:21:01,200 where we have the remote workplace, so you don't see as much. 414 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:02,990 But, definitely, monitor and observe. 415 00:21:02,990 --> 00:21:06,323 Listen to the conversations that are going on, to make sure 416 00:21:06,323 --> 00:21:08,657 that people are appropriate in that. 417 00:21:08,657 --> 00:21:10,323 Open lines of communication. 418 00:21:10,323 --> 00:21:12,980 Make sure your employees know if something is bothering them, 419 00:21:12,980 --> 00:21:16,920 that they can come to you and speak to you about that. 420 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,490 Amanda, do you have anything to add there? 421 00:21:19,490 --> 00:21:22,720 – I'd say this is an area where ethical leadership really comes into play. 422 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,157 Especially, from your top-level management personnel. 423 00:21:26,157 --> 00:21:30,490 There's, actually, a whole stream of research that's looked at what impact 424 00:21:30,490 --> 00:21:34,157 does ethical leaders have on employees partaking 425 00:21:34,157 --> 00:21:37,490 or engaging in unethical or deviant behaviors. 426 00:21:37,490 --> 00:21:39,156 And a lot of the main findings, from there, 427 00:21:39,156 --> 00:21:43,156 have shown that if there is an ethical leader, they can actually influence 428 00:21:43,156 --> 00:21:45,656 how the employees act in the workplace. 429 00:21:45,656 --> 00:21:49,020 And they can do that by holding them accountable to the ethical standards. 430 00:21:49,020 --> 00:21:51,210 By putting in place, like I said before, rewards 431 00:21:51,210 --> 00:21:53,156 and some type of a punishment system. 432 00:21:53,156 --> 00:21:56,990 So there's, actually, research that has shown, that followers 433 00:21:56,990 --> 00:22:00,490 learn that ethical conduct is rewarded and that incivility is punished. 434 00:22:00,539 --> 00:22:09,323 And through doing that, they're more apt to not act unethically, 435 00:22:09,323 --> 00:22:12,490 and to follow the standards or the expectations 436 00:22:12,490 --> 00:22:14,156 that the firm has put into place. 437 00:22:14,156 --> 00:22:18,656 Another thing that came from this research is that the employees, 438 00:22:18,656 --> 00:22:22,989 at a company, will also learn from what they're seeing happen 439 00:22:22,989 --> 00:22:24,640 to the co-workers around them. 440 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,989 So just by witnessing one of their co-workers being rewarded 441 00:22:27,989 --> 00:22:30,989 for being civil or being punished for being uncivil, 442 00:22:30,989 --> 00:22:34,830 will also drive them to act a certain way. 443 00:22:34,830 --> 00:22:36,823 So to, again, follow the standards 444 00:22:36,823 --> 00:22:40,760 or the expectations that have been set up by firm leadership. 445 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,220 – And watch for turnover trends as well. 446 00:22:43,220 --> 00:22:46,156 When you see turnover happening, do those exit interviews. 447 00:22:46,156 --> 00:22:48,989 Don't just say, "Hey, goodbye, have a great life." 448 00:22:48,989 --> 00:22:51,059 But actually take the time to speak with your employee. 449 00:22:51,059 --> 00:22:54,289 Find out why that turnover is taking place. 450 00:22:54,289 --> 00:22:56,210 Is it due to those types of actions? 451 00:22:56,210 --> 00:22:58,020 They may have absolutely nothing to do with it. 452 00:22:58,020 --> 00:22:59,870 Turnover happens for all sorts of reasons. 453 00:22:59,870 --> 00:23:03,989 Better opportunity, just stagnant career, want something new, things like that. 454 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:08,210 But in those exit interviews, speak with them, see why they're leaving. 455 00:23:08,210 --> 00:23:11,429 If it does have something to do with the others' behavior, 456 00:23:11,429 --> 00:23:14,200 either through management or coworkers. 457 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,489 What was the behavior? What led you to this point? 458 00:23:16,510 --> 00:23:17,559 Why did you not speak up? 459 00:23:17,559 --> 00:23:19,320 Did you not feel comfortable speaking up? 460 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:23,322 Because that's a big indicator, too, as managers, that, "Hey, our employees 461 00:23:23,322 --> 00:23:26,322 aren't willing to come to us and speak to that." 462 00:23:26,322 --> 00:23:30,049 And then if you do witness it, talk to the employee, what's causing it? 463 00:23:30,049 --> 00:23:33,322 Maybe there's some underlying stressors that are causing that behavior. 464 00:23:33,322 --> 00:23:37,656 Either financial, ill parents that they're caring for, and then look at ways 465 00:23:37,656 --> 00:23:39,970 the firm can maybe support those individuals, 466 00:23:39,970 --> 00:23:41,655 that are having struggles outside. 467 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:43,510 – So this has been a great conversation. 468 00:23:43,510 --> 00:23:47,039 And as we wrap things up, I just wanted to see is there any advice 469 00:23:47,039 --> 00:23:49,655 or any final thoughts, you guys, wanted to give to our audience, 470 00:23:49,655 --> 00:23:51,322 before we wrap it up, today? 471 00:23:51,322 --> 00:23:55,155 – I think one thing, go ahead Amanda. – I was waiting for you this whole time. 472 00:23:55,155 --> 00:24:00,155 – I was waiting for you this whole time. – You, go ahead, I'll let you go first. 473 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:05,600 – I'm usually the follower to Doug's leader, by default. 474 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,680 I would say my biggest advice is just being self-aware. 475 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:15,489 Know where you're playing into this workplace relationship. 476 00:24:15,489 --> 00:24:18,820 If this instability is occurring, whether you're the person 477 00:24:18,820 --> 00:24:21,289 that's creating the instability or you're the person 478 00:24:21,289 --> 00:24:23,779 that's falling victim to that instability. 479 00:24:23,779 --> 00:24:27,822 Because there's different and appropriate responses to which player you are. 480 00:24:27,822 --> 00:24:28,822 – I definitely agree with that. 481 00:24:28,822 --> 00:24:32,130 Before we respond, take a step back and think about your response. 482 00:24:32,130 --> 00:24:34,822 So, especially, if you're angry or upset, 483 00:24:34,822 --> 00:24:37,400 email is our worst enemy, I think, in that respect. 484 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,070 Because it's easier to type a response that's negative. 485 00:24:40,070 --> 00:24:44,155 So type it up, and then an hour later read it because I think you'll be shocked. 486 00:24:44,159 --> 00:24:46,549 So I think it's great to express yourself when you are angry. 487 00:24:46,549 --> 00:24:50,488 Because it does lift that burden when you can express it, just don't hit Send. 488 00:24:50,488 --> 00:24:51,810 But if you do have that response 489 00:24:51,810 --> 00:24:55,080 and you're angry, type it up, let it sit, and then read it back to yourself. 490 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,179 And I think you'll be shocked at how you come across 491 00:24:57,179 --> 00:24:59,159 in many respects, in your response. 492 00:24:59,159 --> 00:25:01,988 You're like, "Oh, my goodness, I would never say that to a person face to face." 493 00:25:02,110 --> 00:25:05,821 So I think a lot of our incivility does stem from email or electronic communications, 494 00:25:05,900 --> 00:25:08,760 where they're not as personal as face to face in that. 495 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,321 So just double check, never respond out of anger, 496 00:25:11,321 --> 00:25:14,488 take a step back, and just review how you're going to respond 497 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:16,488 and is it appropriate response. 498 00:25:16,488 --> 00:25:19,570 – Mm, and, sometimes, we're angry about something completely different 499 00:25:19,570 --> 00:25:23,250 and we're just taking our anger out on whoever just chatted with us. 500 00:25:23,250 --> 00:25:25,310 So that whole self-reflection thing 501 00:25:25,310 --> 00:25:27,140 that you guys have been talking about, is a huge thing. 502 00:25:27,140 --> 00:25:29,988 Because a lot of times we're frustrated about things, but it has nothing 503 00:25:29,988 --> 00:25:33,821 to do with our job or it has something to do with something else that happened. 504 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:35,821 And we have to take that moment to self-reflect, 505 00:25:35,821 --> 00:25:39,480 and what you guys have just said is a huge impact. 506 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:41,730 Take a minute, take a step back, take a step, 507 00:25:41,730 --> 00:25:43,970 or count to five before you respond. 508 00:25:43,970 --> 00:25:46,350 Sometimes just taking that moment 509 00:25:46,350 --> 00:25:48,929 before you respond means the world of difference. 510 00:25:48,929 --> 00:25:52,520 Especially, when you're responding to co-workers, to people on the street. 511 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:53,559 If somebody bumps into you, 512 00:25:53,559 --> 00:25:56,490 maybe, they were in a rush because their friend is dying. 513 00:25:56,490 --> 00:26:01,654 Or they bumped into you because they are just a jerk and that's just who they are. 514 00:26:01,789 --> 00:26:04,488 But that doesn't mean we need to respond in anger back to them. 515 00:26:04,488 --> 00:26:06,300 It's all about how we respond to people 516 00:26:06,300 --> 00:26:10,321 and taking that moment to take a minute, and those are all great things. 517 00:26:10,321 --> 00:26:14,988 Thank you guys so much for responding, for writing your great article. 518 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:16,809 Please, check the show notes, everybody. 519 00:26:16,809 --> 00:26:19,821 We'll put a link to the article and thank you guys. 520 00:26:19,821 --> 00:26:22,487 Thank you, Amanda, Doug, thank you so much for coming on today. 521 00:26:22,487 --> 00:26:24,487 – Thank you for having us. – Thanks for having us. 522 00:26:24,487 --> 00:26:26,654 < Outro > 523 00:26:26,654 --> 00:26:28,220 – This has been Count Me In. 524 00:26:28,220 --> 00:26:31,380 IMA's podcast, providing you with the latest perspectives, 525 00:26:31,380 --> 00:26:34,321 of thought leaders from the accounting and finance profession. 526 00:26:34,321 --> 00:26:36,654 If you like what you heard, and you'd like to be counted in, 527 00:26:36,654 --> 00:26:39,154 for more relevant accounting and finance education, 528 00:26:39,154 --> 00:26:46,821 visit IMA's website at www.imanet.org.