00:00:00,000 --> 00:01:44,020 [Speaker 0]
[instrumental music] Welcome to our continuing conversation about our wild and ever-changing world. We started this podcast called The Wild Idea to explore the intersection of wild nature and our own human nature, and today's guest is a real personification of that intersection. Adam Kramer is the CEO of the Outdoor Alliance. He is a whitewater paddler. He is a mountain biker. He leads an organization that he was there at the beginning for that is founded to activate those who recreate on public lands to fight for those lands. My name is Bill Hodge, and I am so thrilled to bring this conversation to you today. I'm also here to remind you that this is the final week of Your Wild Summer. We've been asking you all month to send us some of your favorite activities and actions you've taken for the wild, and this is our final prompt, our final week for you to get your stories in. Might be putting a pair of brand new FKT sunglasses on your face. And so our final prompt is this, and it's a fitting one given the conversation we have with Adam. We want to hear your wild summer story about how you took an advocacy action to fight for public lands. And make it a, make it a good one. Just don't be, "I made a phone call," or, "I did this." But we wanna hear, like, what led to you making that, that phone call or maybe what you heard in response or the public town hall that you went to, to fight for public lands. We wanna hear your stories from this summer. So last week, all get on board with Your Wild Summer. Anders, I know you've been having fun with this month. 

00:01:44,020 --> 00:02:10,000 [Speaker 1]
Oh, hi, Bill. Yeah, I've been having a lot of fun with the responses we're having, and I'm really, really excited about this prompt. It's one I feel like I can answer, um, sort of preemptively, um, because just this week, I took the step to register for the 2026 National Wilderness Week Conference in Washington, DC coming up in September. 

00:02:11,120 --> 00:03:55,500 [Speaker 1]
And the National Wilderness Coalition, as I'm sure I've mentioned on this podcast multiple times because I'm obsessed with it, is such a fun group. You know, if, if wilderness is essential, so is the National Wilderness Coalition. They are diverse, inclusive, and powerful. And this National Wilderness Week, which has been going on for a couple years now, um, is just such a great gathering. Um, it's a place where you get to connect with people around the country who care about wilderness and about other public lands. You get to build your knowledge and skills as a wilderness advocate. I've been an advocate for a long time, but I always learn something, um, during National Wilderness Week. Um, people are gonna spend a lot of time talking to their congressional offices about the importance of wilderness and other public lands issues, and there's myriad issues. As, as we often cover on this podcast, there's always something to talk about. Um, it's a great time hearing from leading conservation voices, um, and each year I leave feeling more energized, more committed than ever to protecting wild places, and it's fun to feel a part of a big community. Um, so, you know, if, if you're interested in doing something like this, if you work for an organization that might support wilderness designation or stewardship, I really encourage you to sign up too. Um, apologies to those folks who were gonna send in registering for National Wilderness Week as their, as their story this week. I just stole it from you. You're-- You've been disqualified if that was your answer. You gotta think of a new one, um, but I'm sure you will. Uh, Bill, did you-- What did you do? What-- How did you take action this week? 

00:03:55,500 --> 00:04:38,940 [Speaker 0]
Well, I've, uh, I definitely have, uh, you know, put a lot of time into this podcast and making sure that we bring the story of the work of, uh, the Outdoor Alliance with Adam. Uh, I've certainly made my share of phone calls this summer. I've had a chance to meet with representatives from, uh, my congressional, uh, member, um, who honestly played an important role in standing up for public lands but is not running for reelection. So, uh, I've taken a number of steps to, uh, fight for, uh, public lands legislation here in the state of Montana. I have a question for you. I, I love, uh, that you've signed up for that week again. How weird is it gonna be for you to be traveling to DC instead of there having to play host? At some level, it has to maybe be a little refreshing that you don't have as many hosting responsibilities? 

00:04:38,940 --> 00:05:17,140 [Speaker 1]
I'll tell you what. I have no idea what hotel to stay in 'cause I've never stayed at a hotel in DC. It's very odd to call your friends in DC and ask for, like, a hotel rec. Um, it is feeling a little weird. You know, the, the last time I flew in and out of DCA before I moved, it was very much on my mind that, like, "This will be the last time I fly into DCA as someone who lives in DC. Next time, next time I return, I'll be a visitor." Um, and this time, I'll, I'll be a visitor, a visitor who does not remain. Um, but I just, I gotta take issue with one thing you said, which was, uh, I'm sure you did put a lot of work into this week's podcast, but I think we can agree, I, I put a little bit more work into it. 

00:05:17,140 --> 00:05:19,200 [Speaker 0]
[laughs] Oh, as always, of course. 

00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:20,040 [Speaker 1]
Just a little. 

00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:39,100 [Speaker 0]
I'm always skating by riding your coattails every step of the way. You know how that goes. No, I, uh, I, I, I wish you well on the trip back to DC. I'll miss going this year, uh, but I know you will represent all of us well, uh, in being there. So thank you for, for doing that. And again, we wanna hear all of your all's stories from your wild summer. 

00:05:39,100 --> 00:05:47,240 [Speaker 1]
And if you're there and you want a Wild Idea sticker, I will be carrying, like, a boatload of them in a backpack. So please come say hello. 

00:05:47,240 --> 00:06:11,516 [Speaker 0]
[laughs] I love that. Let's get to our conversation with the CEO of the Outdoor Alliance, Adam Kramer. Adam, welcome to The Wild Idea podcast. Good to see you again. As our audience knows very well about us, we always love a really good origin story. And since you were there for the, uh, the birth of the organization and now still serving as the CEO of the Outdoor Alliance- 

00:06:11,516 --> 00:06:21,356 [Speaker 0]
Can you take us through that beginning? Like, sort of what were all the things that came together to link these amazing members into an alliance? Can you take us through that, Adam? 

00:06:21,356 --> 00:06:25,986 [Speaker 2]
Yeah, certainly. And thanks for having me, Bill and Anders. This is a pleasure. So, uh, 

00:06:26,996 --> 00:07:29,346 [Speaker 2]
man, this goes back a minute. The members of Outdoor Alliance, like American Whitewater, IMBA, Winter Wildlands Alliance, Access Fund, uh, there are 10 of us now. Uh, but at 1st there were, there were 6, um, and they had been doing a really fantastic work for decades, right? Throwing down for the interest for mountain biking, climbing, kayaking, you name it. And very, very effective organizations rooted in their respective communities, deep connection to place, uh, super authentic, super capable. And, you know, these different pursuits, different subcultures have this through line in terms of, like, having the c-- you need to have public lands, you need to have a setting, you need to have a place to enjoy these pursuits for these communities to thrive. And it was this realization that there-- all these different pursuits had this in common, and that there was some-- there, I guess, the question was, could they all work together to conserve, protect the places, to think about the setting, uh, primarily? 

00:07:30,366 --> 00:08:07,966 [Speaker 2]
Um, and that's something, that's something that was, uh... The question was asked by this guy, Mike Finley, who, uh, was the head of the Turner Foundation at the time. Uh, he was instrumental in forming the Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership. And, uh, you know, from an oral history standpoint, my understanding is that, you know, he set that up, uh, with others, and then he had the idea. It's like, well, if hunters and anglers could get together and conserve and protect clean air and clean water and habitat, what about those dirtbag kayakers and pothead climbers? Could they get it together [chuckling] and think about the bigger picture? 

00:08:09,016 --> 00:08:55,636 [Speaker 2]
And that was a question that he had, and he posed it to the members of, uh, of Outdoor Alliance individually, and basically offered, just like, "Hey, can you guys get it together and gals get it together and, and, uh, are you game? Could this work?" And that's how it all started. Uh, and that was, that was before my time, uh, at Outdoor Alliance, but that's, that's the catalyst for, for this, uh, organization. And we started as a, as a coalition, just a project amongst independent C-threes. And, um, after realizing that we had something and it worked, we made the decision to form our own C-3 back in 2000. We became a C-3 in 2014, uh, and have been an organization, an independent organization ever since. 

00:08:55,636 --> 00:09:00,316 [Speaker 0]
So I'm curious your story. How, uh, how did you funnel into that story? 

00:09:00,316 --> 00:09:04,056 [Speaker 2]
You know, it all really started in a parking lot, uh, for me. Um, 

00:09:05,296 --> 00:09:54,976 [Speaker 2]
and, and, you know, going back, like, I, I moved to, uh, to DC. I'm a, I'm an attorney by trade and, and training, and I moved to DC to, um... right out of law school. I worked at a corporate law firm and, you know, like others, had a ton of law school debt. And DC is a great place to be a lawyer and start chipping away at that debt and learn the craft. And what I didn't know about DC, I had no connection to the area at all, but, uh, it's, it's one of the best whitewater kayaking cities, like, in the world, hands down. And there's a lot of reasons for that. But there's a, a very generous amount of water, a lot of gradient, um, and in certain whitewater places, there's... it, it all goes off of snow melt, right? And once the s- the, the water melts, and then you got season, and then it's gone. But in DC, it's like 365. So it's, it's amazing. So I had these, like, 2 

00:09:56,356 --> 00:10:33,176 [Speaker 2]
kinda, kinda alternative realities, right? I was like K Street attorney, right? Taking depositions and that kind of stuff. And then I got deep in the whitewater scene in DC. And, um, and it was just really discordant real- realities, right? And then, um, and then one day, those worlds just collided in the parking lot. There was this guy, uh, that worked at American Whitewater. He comes up to me, he's like, "Hey, Kramer." You know, 'cause you're a kayaker, you're, like, stuck emotionally in, like, the eighth grade. Everybody uses last names. And like, "Hey, Kramer, you're a lawyer, right?" And I'm like, "Uh-huh." And in my head, I'm thinking 

00:10:34,496 --> 00:11:54,696 [Speaker 2]
to get ready to say, "I can't help your brother-in-law or, like, whatever you think I can help you with." Like, and I'm, like, getting, getting ready to, like, you know, pivot and, and get on with my day. But he worked at American Whitewater, and, uh, he says to me, he's like, "We're trying to renegotiate the hydropower permit for the Upper Youghiogheny River. It's, uh, Maryland's 1st wild and scenic river, and it's an exquisite whitewater gem. And, um, and I love this place. My friends love this place." And he said, "Can you help?" And I just reflexively said yes. I was like, "Yeah." And, like, I knew anything about hydropower [chuckling] or hydropower permitting or doing any of that stuff, but I had this, like, connection to place. And, um, they needed a lawyer, and the firm I was at let me do it pro bono. And, uh, and that was, that was the fork in the road for me getting in- involved in conservation. Um, and, uh, along the way, it was so interesting the types of problems that you solve in conservation, especially with balancing, you know, hydropower and the river health and paddling and angling and the needs of the local community were just, for me, much more interesting than, like, who's right and wrong in a lawsuit. And I ended up on the board at, at American Whitewater. And, um, 

00:11:56,316 --> 00:12:15,080 [Speaker 2]
you know, we, uh... And then over time, just, like, those worlds collided. So when Finley and, and, and, uh, uh, Mike Finley and the folks that, that were the member organizations at Outdoor Alliance were kind of figuring this out, and they realized that they needed somebody to help them out, I threw my hat in the ring. And, uh... 

00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:16,000 [Speaker 2]
They said, "Sure." 

00:12:17,180 --> 00:12:20,140 [Speaker 2]
So yeah, that's how, that's how it started. I wish I could say, like, 

00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:24,500 [Speaker 2]
you know, it was all preordained, but it wasn't. 

00:12:24,500 --> 00:12:54,100 [Speaker 1]
I love hearing a vigorous defense of outdoor experiences in DC. It's a very good way to get on my good side. But Bill, Adam was already on my good side, and that's because, uh, even when I was a young pup lobbyist in DC and all the time after that, Adam has always had time for me and been able to answer my questions. And, uh, Adam, I just wanna say publicly, thank you for that, and thank you for being here. 

00:12:54,100 --> 00:12:55,060 [Speaker 2]
Thank you, Anders. 

00:12:55,060 --> 00:13:27,470 [Speaker 1]
Anyhoosers, speaking of people you have time for, um, a, a climber, a paddler, a mountain biker, a backcountry skier, they all use the land differently from one another, and they sometimes want different things from it. You know, what do you see in those disparate groups, those disparate users, that makes you think the sum is more powerful than the parts? Uh, why do these particular communities need each other? 

00:13:27,470 --> 00:14:38,540 [Speaker 2]
Well, they're needed more than just from each other. They got their provincial interests, of course. That's usually the starting point. But they also, you know, have been able to see the bigger picture in that, uh, you need a, a, a setting to, to pursue these, these joyous activities. And if you don't have a setting, the activities don't really matter that much, you know? And there's a realization that, you know, as, as passionate as they feel about, like, mountain biking or kayaking or, or surfing or backcountry skiing, it's hard to move the needle by yourself. But if you find, uh, a group and you've got alignment, um, you know, consensus is the coin of the realm in a democracy, especially in DC, and there's enough overlap in terms of their values, in terms of the way that they see the world, in terms of how they roll, that it-- there's, there's an efficiency in working together. And then collectively, when you're able to get stuff done, it's intoxicating. It's very motivating. And then you get, um, 

00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:52,600 [Speaker 2]
you look for ways to find agreement, and you, when you realize that you don't agree, you, you manage that thoughtfully and carefully because you've had that taste of success, and you keep it together. 

00:14:52,600 --> 00:15:23,900 [Speaker 0]
That leads perfectly into what I wanted to ask. You know, as that alliance of these, uh, like you said, they share a lot of values, uh, probably share, you know, way more in common than any tension that might exist. But I, I wonder for the alliance and in your role, how do you go about scoping the work and setting tones? Like, how do you navigate when those interests that sit around the table maybe have competing interests possibly, even though they have so much in common? Occasionally, of course, there's, there's tension there. How do you, 

00:15:25,180 --> 00:15:33,360 [Speaker 0]
how do you sort of navigate those waters? Is it ever something that you have to consciously go, "Okay, how are we gonna figure out where to take a stand on this or not take a stand on that?" 

00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:46,800 [Speaker 2]
We had to figure that out from day one, you know? Yeah, especially, I mean, because the wilderness, right? Like, some of these pursuits were welcomed by wilderness, some of them a little ambiguous, and some of them are like, "Uh-uh, 

00:15:48,100 --> 00:16:07,900 [Speaker 2]
can't ride a bike here." Right? So then how do you navigate something that's, like, a, a cornerstone in, you know, a policy mechanism for conservation, you know, it-- where not a reason why? And I think that you could just focus on the things that you don't agree on, and it could, 

00:16:08,940 --> 00:16:16,650 [Speaker 2]
it, it could be a bit of a distract-- It's not that it's not important, but it's like, I don't know. Do either of you guys ski? 

00:16:16,650 --> 00:16:22,420 [Speaker 0]
I used to before my knee went south, and I do a lot of flat water paddling, but we certainly have a lot of people in those spaces that we know. 

00:16:22,420 --> 00:16:51,320 [Speaker 2]
Yeah. It's, it's like if you're going through some trees or you're, you're, you're, um, you're paddling through, like, a tricky section of the river, you need to be mindful of this, the hazards. But if you just focus on the hazard, it's kind of like a tractor beam, and you end up there. You gotta find the line in between the challenges, right? So when we started at Outdoor Alliance, we were mindful of the conflict, but then we tended to focus on all the things we had in common. 

00:16:52,460 --> 00:17:28,780 [Speaker 2]
And once we inventoried all the things we had in common, uh, and there was so much work to do, we decided let's get all the stuff done 1st that we agree on, and if there's some extra, we'll, we'll take apart the things that were, there's some conflict. And it's just this matter of setting priorities. You know, you only have so much time and resources, and we could, like, you know, go around in a circle about things that we don't agree on, but then there's opportunity costs there that we're not moving forward on the things we do agree on. So it's just being mindful that, you know, there's a lot of stuff we could agree on. Let's focus on that stuff 1st and be at peace with it, so. 

00:17:28,780 --> 00:18:02,290 [Speaker 1]
And that's not really an abstract concept right now. I mean, you, you brought up wilderness, and there's a wilderness stewardship review open for comment right now. Closes August 14th. And, you know, when the, when the feds reopen the rules for how wilderness gets managed, is, is that a threat where you circle the wagons, or is it an opening where maybe some of your members actually welcome the dialogue that could come from that? Like, how does the alliance speak with one voice on that, or is that something you even attempt? 

00:18:02,290 --> 00:18:45,190 [Speaker 2]
We've got a unified, uh, approach to wilderness, all of us. Yeah. There's, there's not any appetite within the member organizations to make any kind of change to the Wilderness Act. On how it's applied, that's where we, we get, uh, consensus. Uh, when you're figuring out, um, wilderness... Being mindful of the resources that are there and maybe make some adjustments to the boundaries in a way so that you have a portfolio or more of a continuum of protections of a landscape. And as long as there's an appetite for doing that, and we found over the years that there certainly is, that's, that's the way more cost-effective, um, in terms of time and energy, a way to approach conserving landscapes and involving people in the process. 

00:18:46,220 --> 00:18:56,360 [Speaker 2]
So, yeah, we're a lo-- Sorry, man. I thought, uh, if you're... [laughs] See if there's a crack in the, in the system, not, not in terms of wilderness. Um... 

00:18:56,360 --> 00:19:04,420 [Speaker 0]
Yeah, I don't think it's, I don't think it's looking for a crack. It's, it's, it's really interesting to hear that, that there's that unanimity because as Andrew said, there, there is this, um... 

00:19:06,430 --> 00:19:26,519 [Speaker 0]
[sighs] I think we're being exposed to a lot of attempts at creating fissures. It's the only way I know to put it right now, right? There's a lot of, um... I, I would say even beyond the human, human-powered recreation community to the motorized recreation community, right, like the travel management stuff that's now sort of being thrown into disarray with a couple executive orders. So I, I think it's just trying to figure out, um, 

00:19:27,620 --> 00:20:16,810 [Speaker 0]
how, how these groups who have a, a range of interests, but like you said, there's so much in kind, literally it's common ground. It's quite literally common ground is often the thing, right? So I, I think to pivot, uh, there's one generalization that I'm gonna guess is true of all of those recreation interests, even the specific human-powered recreationist, um, groups, that they're all made up of the full political spectrum, right? I'm sure there's lots of Dems that are in their membership, lots of independents, lots of Republicans. But I think we can all agree that also used to be true for vocal advocates for public lands in general, the lands we depend on for all of our pursuits, as you said. And, and it seems like anymore that's not necessarily true. Uh, and, and it... but it probably is true, more true within the recreation community that there's this, uh, there's this full spectrum. But 

00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:37,730 [Speaker 0]
I wonder if, if... do you think I'm right about that? Like, recreation becomes the place that we can tear down that sort of partisan veil because it is the place that we, regardless of political interests, we, we, we share these places in common. I mean, that's been my experience, but I'm curious what you think about that. 

00:20:37,730 --> 00:21:45,990 [Speaker 2]
I agree with you. It's part of people's identity at a much more fundamental level than political party. It, it relates to your experiences, the places that are important to you, the people with whom you have those experiences, your friends and your family. And that's that there's like a, a, a substrate that's below, from my perspective, for people that are part of this community. It's more fundamental than, than a political orientation. You know, and it's like in the same way that, you know, mountain bikers, backcountry skiers, they're different, but then there's like a through line between them. That through line extends, you know, in the same way, you know, across political, um, orientation. And you see it in, in, um, how things have kind of shaken out over the years. You know, Great America Outdoors Act, Legacy Restoration Fund, EXPLORE Act. You know, there's been a, a pretty impressive, uh, portfolio of accomplishments, and recreation tends to juice things along the way. 

00:21:47,260 --> 00:21:51,900 [Speaker 2]
You know, it gives you a different frame, a different narrative rather than, 

00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,660 [Speaker 2]
you know, like the, what, like, 

00:21:57,140 --> 00:22:04,720 [Speaker 2]
extraction, development versus preservation, which is kind of polarizing, right? It's one or the other. And, and this is like... 

00:22:05,860 --> 00:22:08,960 [Speaker 2]
it's just an alternative way of thinking about things. It gives people space 

00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:27,430 [Speaker 2]
to, uh, to have, bring a, a different part of their identity to it and, and their own interests. You know, vests... Like the whole thing about recreation, it vests people. It's like they're self-interested. They want to protect a place because it means something to them. It's not an abstraction. 

00:22:27,430 --> 00:22:33,580 [Speaker 0]
I love that idea that it is, and it's, it's more central to our identity, right? Like, if somebody asks me who I am, 

00:22:34,640 --> 00:23:01,180 [Speaker 0]
you know, maybe, maybe the first answer might be, like, what I do for a living or something, but the second one's probably gonna be I'm a backpacker or I'm a hiker. Um, you know, it, it's not gonna be, "Oh, I'm a registered whatever," right? You know, it's gonna be... It... I do like that idea that it is way more central, that activity that we do to create joy in our life. And obviously for most people, it's, it's a range of activities. It's a whole circle. But I really like that answer, Adam. Thanks. 

00:23:01,180 --> 00:23:34,440 [Speaker 1]
Yeah, I agree. I mean, you're talking about how this is something fundamental to the way people understand themselves and how that's translated to all those successes that you have mentioned, uh, over the last few years. Great America Outdoors Act, one example. Still, that, that took you convincing people to take action, right, to identify with that, that fundamental part, uh, about themselves. And I'm wondering if for our listeners, you'll sort of walk us through the actual conversion. You know- 

00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:34,450 [Speaker 2]
Yeah 

00:23:34,450 --> 00:23:59,520 [Speaker 1]
... a climber loves a certain climbing route, but they've never submitted a federal comment in their life, right? But as you know, as I know, the policy world is, is really opaque, and it's kind of alienating if you don't know what's going on. So, you know, what are some of the specific things Outdoor Alliance does that turns someone, uh, into someone who's willing to act when it matters? 

00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:01,020 [Speaker 2]
Oh, what a good question. 

00:24:02,120 --> 00:24:02,280 [Speaker 2]
Well, 

00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:36,460 [Speaker 2]
there are a couple parts of it. One of it's rooted in organizational culture in terms of how we figure out what our priorities are. And we've got the, the wonderful fortune of having so much talent within the member organizations. You know, as I mentioned earlier, they're like... they've been doing amazing work for decades, and they've got le- you know, wonderful leadership and comms people and policy people. There's just this depth of experience and perspective. And at Outdoor Alliance, we lean into that. We do all these things together. Like, we call... there's this, uh, 

00:24:37,540 --> 00:25:24,168 [Speaker 2]
uh, we call it the joint policy shop. Right? With all the, uh, the policy leads for the member organizations, they meet every week throughout the year to get a census of what's going on, what the priorities are, what's vexing them, what the opportunities are. So there's this collaborative culture in terms of how we think about things, right? So there's-- And that means that there's an authenticity to what we do because all these people, they're accountable to their constituents, to all the kayakers out there and all the backcountry skiers out there and the mountain bikers. So the things that we come up with, we have to be judicious, right? We can't do everything, but we prioritize the things that are most important to the community and that have this kind of commonality in terms of place, right? Um, 

00:25:25,288 --> 00:25:51,088 [Speaker 2]
so that's really, really important. And then when we figure out what's going on, we spend a lot of time at 1st figuring out, like, w-what do we want out of this? What, what makes sense? How do we-- You know, what's our agenda with a particular item? What do we wanna see in the world, like, uh, like, from a policy perspective? And we do that, again, in collaboration with everybody. And then we spend a lot of time 

00:25:52,888 --> 00:25:54,768 [Speaker 2]
making it, uh, 

00:25:55,788 --> 00:26:07,788 [Speaker 2]
presenting it in a way that could be metabolized by people that care about this stuff, but don't have all the jargon. And you know what? Why should they? Why should you know what all these acronyms mean? 

00:26:09,068 --> 00:26:36,878 [Speaker 2]
Like, you shouldn't. That's like to impose that on people is like a tax that's, like, unconscionable, right? And so what we do, a lot of our work is, is then translating it and not, and, and not, um... Like, translating it in a way that's completely authentic, and all the core stuff is there. We don't water it down, but we, we-- It's a laborious process to be able to, like, distill it down to this is why it matters, 

00:26:38,868 --> 00:26:57,528 [Speaker 2]
and this is what you could do about it. We always provide that context. It's like, this is what's happening, and you have a role to play, whether it's filing comments to the Forest Service or writing your congressman. And then we empower people to do it. We give people, like, this is the thing, and this is your role. This is what you're empowered to do 

00:26:58,828 --> 00:27:22,048 [Speaker 2]
as somebody who lives here. You know, we... Democracy is a... It's not just voting every 2 years, right? Like, so we just take it upon ourselves to figure out how to, like, make it as, as relevant and as accessible and as actionable as we possibly can. And then you go from just the acronyms to, like, images and maps, 

00:27:23,088 --> 00:27:28,948 [Speaker 2]
and we use a ton of data, right? We don't just talk about abstractions. We talk about, like, 

00:27:30,248 --> 00:27:33,728 [Speaker 2]
you know, how many miles of whitewater paddling is in this particular forest plan, 

00:27:35,488 --> 00:27:49,508 [Speaker 2]
right? Or, you know, what is the intersection between oil and gas development and outdoor recreation? Why should you care about it? Is it, like, all oil and gas? Well, no, but there's enough of an overlap 

00:27:50,768 --> 00:27:57,428 [Speaker 2]
that you might wanna weigh in if you want to. So we invite people to be civically engaged, and that's, like, 

00:27:58,688 --> 00:27:59,758 [Speaker 2]
huge motivation for me. 

00:28:01,348 --> 00:28:01,668 [Speaker 2]
It's about, 

00:28:03,348 --> 00:28:04,728 [Speaker 2]
it's about power. 

00:28:04,728 --> 00:28:11,948 [Speaker 1]
Okay, but motivate me, empower me, because here's what I worry demoralizes people. 

00:28:11,948 --> 00:28:12,608 [Speaker 2]
Yeah. 

00:28:12,608 --> 00:28:47,848 [Speaker 1]
Let's take, uh, the BLM public lands review. It drew, like, 130,000 comments and, in, in support of it, and it was rescinded anyway. Um, Bears Ears and, and Grand Stair- uh, Grand Staircase-Escalante right now, Utah monuments have overwhelming support any way you look, and they got cut by 90 percent. You know, when you're asking someone to spend 20 minutes on a comment that this administration seems determined to ignore, how do you keep that from feeling pointless for someone? What do you tell them the comment will actually do? 

00:28:47,848 --> 00:28:48,918 [Speaker 2]
It's not gonna fix everything, 

00:28:50,408 --> 00:29:01,267 [Speaker 2]
but it's infinitely better than doing nothing and sh-shrugging your shoulders because what you're doing is you're assigning a social and political cost to whatever decision there happens to be. 

00:29:02,808 --> 00:29:23,228 [Speaker 2]
And if you never say anything and there's no cost, then lawmakers or policymakers, you get the sense that this is free, and they'll be motivated by it, and they'll just make decisions that are not necessarily in the public interest. But you've got a responsibility. If you know a thing or two about public lands or about your experience with public lands, you could put weight in the scale, 

00:29:24,788 --> 00:29:48,748 [Speaker 2]
and that will inform this decision. Will it make the decisions all line up with what you want? No. But sometimes, sometimes it does. And if you never show up... And here's another thing, Anders, is, like, what motivates me is, like, if I don't say something, I basically double the value of somebody I don't agree with. And I'm like, "No, that's unacceptable. 

00:29:50,788 --> 00:29:52,168 [Speaker 2]
I'm not doing that." 

00:29:52,168 --> 00:30:07,088 [Speaker 1]
You're right to flag that it, it does matter sometimes, that the social pressure does matter. I mean, you can look at the example of public land sell-off, for example, where, quite frankly, recreation led the way, I think, um, in fighting that one back. 

00:30:07,088 --> 00:30:13,668 [Speaker 2]
Yeah, it's a great example. Um, and it's also... What's illuminating for me is that 

00:30:14,988 --> 00:30:24,548 [Speaker 2]
you don't have to convince everybody. You just have to convince enough people. And then the game is, like, how many people do you need? Who are they? 

00:30:25,568 --> 00:30:48,600 [Speaker 2]
Because, you know, Brian Zinke, Congressman Newhouse, there were a handful of Republican lawmakers that were really not pleased with, um, the land sales being part of reconciliation, and they sent a letter to, to Leader Johnson and were like, "Look, man. If you have this stuff in the bill, we're gonna crater the whole thing. So 

00:30:49,720 --> 00:31:18,660 [Speaker 2]
was it like 75 lawmakers that signed the letter? No. It was 5. You only need 5. And then it was pulled out. And then Johnson's like, "I don't need this headache. This is-- I don't... You know, figure this out. I'm not gonna blow up this whole initiative." Right? So just being precise about what you need to move the needle. It, it-- you don't ha-- like, you don't have to get everybody to agree with you. That's not the way the system works, and that's what makes it an interesting game to play, right? 

00:31:18,660 --> 00:31:39,760 [Speaker 1]
Yeah. I-- And I really take your point on precision because you're right to point out that it-- maybe this administration is listening less than any before, but the margins in Congress [laughs] are also as slim as they've ever been. So you're right. You don't have to convince the whole caucus. You've gotta convince 5 or 6 or 7 reasonable people about what's going on. It, it's-- that's an important distinction to make. Thank you. 

00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:44,660 [Speaker 0]
We step aside for a word from our sponsor, and we'll be right back with more of the conversation. 

00:31:44,660 --> 00:31:45,920 [Speaker 3]
I'm Lisa Permar. 

00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:47,680 [Speaker 2]
Jeff Randa. Dee Woodcock. 

00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,100 [Speaker 3]
And we're with Poudre Wilderness Volunteers. 

00:31:50,100 --> 00:31:54,980 [Speaker 2]
And you're listening to the Wild Idea Podcast. 

00:31:54,980 --> 00:32:01,490 [Speaker 0]
I wanna talk about a different kind of action or, or actions maybe. You know, one is the idea of voting for your values, 

00:32:02,540 --> 00:32:35,180 [Speaker 0]
and the other is holding elected officials accountable, uh, which we've kinda been talking about here. So on the voting thing, I, I know there is a conversation going on to make public lands closer to the top of the old brain when somebody steps into the voting booth. Um, probably more importantly is to make public land something that candidates can't ignore, uh, when they're talking to those that are gonna be stepping into the voting booth. Can you picture what that cycle looks like when public lands holds a spot in the election that is really relevant? I mean, 

00:32:36,380 --> 00:32:49,600 [Speaker 0]
I think some have made it relevant in ways that maybe the 3 of us don't agree with. I'm thinking like, drill, baby, drill, for example, you could say is a public lands phrase to, to, I don't know, to put a label on it. But, like, 

00:32:50,860 --> 00:33:14,520 [Speaker 0]
what is it-- what do you think it looks like when, when we get to that point where, where, where people are saying, "Wait a minute, this is something [laughs] I'm gonna think about." Obviously, there's a lot of other important things in people's minds, right? Like, you know, the roof over their head, putting food on their table, putting their kids through college. All of those, I'm not, I'm not discounting that somehow public land stands above that, but I, I just wonder what it looks like when we stand at the same table. 

00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:45,580 [Speaker 2]
Yeah. What-- The list that you just made, food on the table, roof over their heads, sending the kids to college, all 3 things, personal things relate to their sense of self and their sense of responsibility to their families and where they fit in the world. And if we talk about public lands conservation as an abstraction, as stuff that happens, like, on, like, a geological timeframe, and it doesn't relate to them in a personal way, it's never gonna be a priority issue, 

00:33:46,600 --> 00:34:03,120 [Speaker 2]
right? And I think that, but it can, aspects of it can, to the extent that you make it personal, and you make it, it personal and have enough latitude and be enough-- have enough generosity to have different versions of what makes it personal, 

00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:22,140 [Speaker 2]
right? And not just have, like, a, a purity test about what conservation means. Uh, but if you're able to be more liberal about it and more inclusive and where people see themselves in it, and you are able to use a variety of different words and phrases, like, you could work it in. You could work it in, 

00:34:23,720 --> 00:34:33,810 [Speaker 2]
in a way that's way more successful than a lot of other issues because you've got that angle, because it's personal to people, and it's not just locked into one party or another, 

00:34:34,940 --> 00:34:47,400 [Speaker 2]
you know? So I'm, I'm hopeful about it, but I, I share your caution. It, it-- By itself, it's not just gonna be a kitchen table issue. 

00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:48,040 [Speaker 0]
Right. 

00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:53,440 [Speaker 2]
But if you, you know, you could bank shot it so that it is effectively. 

00:34:53,440 --> 00:35:18,910 [Speaker 0]
Yeah. I, I think maybe one of the things that I keep thinking about a lot as I, as I search for hope for the future, and, and I do have hope for the future, is I think so many people recognize the role that public lands play in their life. And I, and I don't just mean federal public lands. I mean the park down the street. I mean the, the river that runs through town. Um, all of those things, 

00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:23,800 [Speaker 0]
it, it's-- I think it is-- Bank shot's maybe a great way to put it, Adam. It's like, 

00:35:25,040 --> 00:36:28,819 [Speaker 0]
I think too many people take it for granted. Like, there's so many things in our life that are curated for us that we just don't pay enough attention to anymore. You know, a government that functions, um, having public lands. You know, people move to where I live because it's curated for them. They have millions of acres out their back door, but they don't think about how it's curated. Maybe that's a little bit of what we're doing here with the Wild Ideas, to think about helping people understand that it's, that it took effort and it continues to take effort to curate that. So maybe it's not, you know, yanking it up to the top of some Rolodex in somebody's brain for voting day, but it's just reminding them that these things that public lands do for us, clean water, clean air, obviously the recreation component that's so important to your, you know, members of the alliance. But, like, maybe, maybe that's, maybe that's the bank shot you're talking about, is just reminding people that there's this curated experience. There's the curated clean water that comes out of your faucet, and all of that can be taken away if we don't pay attention, right? 

00:36:28,820 --> 00:36:37,990 [Speaker 2]
Yeah. We have a responsibility to nurture it and take care of it and maintain it because it's so precious. I mean, my goodness, it's pretty unusual as countries go to have this much, 

00:36:39,780 --> 00:37:08,918 [Speaker 2]
uh, in an absolute sense, and, and from a percentage like that, it's accessible to- Everyone. And such a continuum of different experiences. You know, talk about curated, like, national parks or, like, you go out in the back country to BLM areas or roadless areas, and, like, you're entitled to be there. And what's more, it's like, it's what I-- really gets me going. It's not just you could be there and experience these places. You have a say in what happens to them 

00:37:10,148 --> 00:37:10,928 [Speaker 2]
because they're public, 

00:37:12,108 --> 00:37:23,588 [Speaker 2]
you know? Um, notice a comment, uh, town hall meetings. Like, th-there, there are these avenues for, for if you're interested to show up and inform 

00:37:25,128 --> 00:37:40,528 [Speaker 2]
what, what all these, you know, wonderful resources, how they're managed moving forward. Like, and we've had some version of that over, over the years, but it's-- I think it's getting a little better. And I think that that's something to lean into moving forward, um, 

00:37:42,308 --> 00:37:45,488 [Speaker 2]
you know, to, to protect the stuff that you're, you're talking about, Bill. 

00:37:45,488 --> 00:37:53,818 [Speaker 1]
This is really interesting. You guys are both inspiring me, um, and I'm gonna think out loud, [chuckling] which often gets me in trouble. But if, 

00:37:55,008 --> 00:38:51,928 [Speaker 1]
you know, if, if hunters and anglers have carried conservation to the kitchen table for like a century now, and I mean literally, right, like venison or trout or whatever, [chuckling] um, it still seems to me that, that, that, that kitchen table has, you know, only so many seats and that outdoor recreation is maybe a, a bigger, better way, right? It's like a one trillion dollar piece of the economy with millions and millions of jobs attached to it. And, you know, it's, it's, it's not abstract, right? It's the, it's the bike trail your, your kid learns to ride on, and it's a stretch river the family floats every summer. Um, it's where you get your green time, right? And so I'm really wondering, just to put a finer point on, on what you're saying, Adam, you know, is, is recreation maybe the fastest path we have right now to making public lands something that people vote on the same way they vote on 

00:38:52,987 --> 00:38:57,948 [Speaker 1]
gas prices, [chuckling] food prices, right? A thing that actually impacts them day-to-day. 

00:38:57,948 --> 00:39:22,578 [Speaker 2]
I don't know. But is it a way? Yes. Is it foolish to leave it on the table? Yes. Is it something that we could-- like, could we leverage the fact that people care about this to, like, honor that love and affection for a place and also direct some of that energy towards conserving and protecting these places? Yes. Like, that's the play. It's like, you love this place, right? Like, all right, 

00:39:23,688 --> 00:39:27,568 [Speaker 2]
because you love it, here are some things that you could do. Here's some ways to show up. 

00:39:28,848 --> 00:39:37,668 [Speaker 2]
Bec- not because you have to, not because you're, like, done, you know, something bad in the past, but it's in your self-interest. 

00:39:38,708 --> 00:39:59,348 [Speaker 2]
And those things co-exist. And the same thing you mentioned, hunters and anglers. I mean, it's like they've been taking care of the landscapes and the game and ecosystems forever. Well, not forever, but for a long time, right? And they do it in a really thoughtful, careful, responsible way. 

00:40:00,468 --> 00:41:28,908 [Speaker 0]
I, I, I could go on and on and on for this conversation. I think it's just really good, good stuff. And it's, I mean, it's all the more reason I'm sure that, Adam, you're gonna be what, uh, what Tracy Stone-Manning referred to as a repeat offender, which is that you return again and again and again, uh, to have these conversations with us. 'Cause I think it's, uh, I think it's, it's one of the most important things we could tackle is, is helping people think about how it is relevant in their day-to-day life so that they think about the consequences of, uh, the lever, uh, that they pull or... And it doesn't-- it's regardless of party. It's, it's, you know, like as you said, there were some incredibly key people who stood up who, who forestalled the sell-off of our public lands who didn't have a D next to their name. Um, and so I think it's-- I think this sort of conversation, and again, I know this, there's, there's a lot going on, uh, around this right now, a lot of conversation around this, and, uh, really, really appreciate you joining us today. I think before we go, I just wanna ask you one final question from me. We haven't talked a lot about the very specific things that we're having to respond to today, 'cause there are so many of them. [chuckling] Um, but I wonder how you do prioritize that on a day-to-day basis. And, and as, as Terry Tempest Williams reminded us that hope is a verb, how do you hang on to that hope as we sometimes feel like... I think the term I hear so many times is, "I'm underwater, I'm underwater, I'm underwater." But how do you, how do you, uh, how do you prioritize all those things that we're having to fight against these days? 

00:41:30,008 --> 00:41:42,648 [Speaker 2]
Well, it's such a long list. Um, but we channel some of the pragmatism of a human-powered community is, like, roadless rule. My goodness, it's like... 

00:41:45,528 --> 00:44:05,616 [Speaker 2]
It's hard to overstate the importance of the roadless rule just in terms of, uh, of what the roadless area is in like 42 states, right? Talk about, like, exclude Idaho and Colorado, which have their own roadless rules, um, you know, 45 million acres. Like, it's just got ton of, of land across North America, and it's got this incredible concentration of human-powered recreational resources. I mean, it-- that's where the goods are in roadless areas for kayaking, mountain biking, backcountry skiing all over the country, and not just, like, out West, but all throughout Appalachia. My favorite mountain bike ride in the world is in a roadless area in Virginia. It's in Reddish Knob in the GW National Forest. Okay? So the stakes are super, super high. It's an incredibly popular rule, right? Um, it's very consequential, not just for recreation, but from an ecology perspective, uh, clean air, clean water. Um, that, that is, I think, um, the most important thing to look into. And it's-- the administration is looking into rescinding it or changing it. And, uh, there'll be opportunities for public comment and also opportunities to share what you think with your lawmakers, right? With your congresspeople and with your senators and others. And, you know, if you look back to, like, the, um, reconciliation process, and that could have happened, but it didn't 'cause people showed up, right? And then things didn't work out so well with Boundary Waters, right? Going back, there's-- this is another opportunity and of-- to weigh in and the, the landscapes at play are so consequential and the pragmatic value of the Roadless Rule is so high. Like, we've gotta show up. I mean, it's like a Goldilocks zone, right, in terms of conservation. It's protective, but not too precious, and so much could take place there. And that's what makes it relevant to so many different people. You could ride a side-by-side. You could ride a snowmobile. You could ride a motorcycle in roadless areas, right? You can, and you could hunt, and you could fish, and you could ride bikes. Like, you know, this is gonna be an opportunity to weigh in on it. So, like, that's where it's at, man. That-- I put that at the top of the list, Bill, for this, for now. For now. [laughs] 

00:44:05,616 --> 00:44:28,316 [Speaker 1]
I appreciate you making Roadless Rule the priority. I appreciate the shout-out to Reddish Knob, where the Road- Roadless Rule was actually announced by President Clinton way back when. Uh, I appreciate your defense of, uh, outdoor rec in DC, but mostly, I appreciate you spending time with us today, Adam. This has been really, really great. It's been insightful for me. So, thank you for giving us some time today. 

00:44:28,316 --> 00:44:32,876 [Speaker 2]
You're welcome. Hopefully, I get that, uh, repeat offender, uh, status. 

00:44:32,876 --> 00:44:35,156 [Speaker 1]
[laughs] It's yours. Just seize the ring. 

00:44:35,156 --> 00:44:36,956 [Speaker 2]
Love chopping it up with you guys. This is great. 

00:44:36,956 --> 00:45:26,496 [Speaker 0]
Just look for the scheduling pull to come your way soon to get you back on here soon. [laughs] So coming up on The Wild Idea podcast, we talk with a great collection of wildlife advocates from Defenders of Wildlife. We delve into Montana's standard setting stream access law to hear about how the fight to keep it that way continues to go. We wanna remind you to be sure and subscribe to our weekly roundup of public land news called The Wildline, now in its own podcast feed. And we would love your support for what we're doing here through Buy Me a Coffee, which you can find on our website at thewildidea.com, the same place where you can sign up for our weekly newsletters. Don't forget to send us your wild summer stories, as this is the final week to win a pair of FKT sunglasses. Let's lace them up, grab our trekking poles, and get back out there. And when we do, we'll see all of you on down the trail. 

00:45:26,496 --> 00:46:03,536 [Speaker 3]
The Wild Idea is a production of Wild Idea Media and hosted by Bill Hoge and Anders Reynolds. Production and editing by Bryn Russell at Podlad. Digital support by Holly Wilkoszewski at Daypak Digital. Our theme music, Spring Hill Jack, is from Railroad Earth and was composed by John Skehan. Our executive producer and ringleader is Laura Hoge. You can find The Wild Idea wherever you listen to or download your favorite podcast. If you have a minute, please take a minute to give us a rating. And if you really like us, we hope you'll subscribe. Learn more about us at thewildidea.com. [instrumental music]