1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:03,360 Unknown: Music. Hello and welcome to tier one 2 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:04,680 interventions Podcast 3 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:09,300 with your hosts, jonily Zupancic 4 00:00:10,740 --> 00:00:15,180 and me, Cheri Dotterer And I like that you interrupted me 5 00:00:15,180 --> 00:00:18,600 there because sometimes their understanding of number and 6 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:21,260 their understanding of visual perception are not aligned. 7 00:00:21,620 --> 00:00:24,920 Hello and welcome to tier one interventions podcast where we 8 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:28,460 share with you tips, techniques and strategies to strengthen 9 00:00:28,460 --> 00:00:32,900 your core. The core classroom that is in the last episode of 10 00:00:33,260 --> 00:00:37,760 tier one interventions, John Lee was training on number sense and 11 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:43,180 how dots relate to number at the end of what we've shared last 12 00:00:43,180 --> 00:00:46,180 time, we're going to continue that conversation with a 13 00:00:46,180 --> 00:00:50,200 question that she asked me. So tune in and find out what she 14 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:50,740 asked. 15 00:00:51,940 --> 00:00:56,860 Sherry. I don't even know what question I have for you, but 16 00:00:56,860 --> 00:01:00,660 what are your thoughts on all of that? What are the struggles 17 00:01:00,660 --> 00:01:03,240 that kids have. What are the deficits that kids have with 18 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:09,240 visual perceptual What are many of the positive aspects of 19 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:14,220 classroom teachers using visuals to gain access to the 20 00:01:14,220 --> 00:01:17,820 curriculum, and specifically the math curriculum? What is 21 00:01:17,820 --> 00:01:22,760 happening in the brain that is going to support what we're 22 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:25,820 trying to teach in tier one interventions. I'm going to let 23 00:01:25,820 --> 00:01:28,160 you take it away a little bit and make some of these 24 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:30,980 connections for us through cognitive science and 25 00:01:30,980 --> 00:01:32,120 neuroscience. 26 00:01:33,260 --> 00:01:35,660 And there's another thing you said, I'm giving you a lot right 27 00:01:35,660 --> 00:01:39,500 now. I know that you always talk about what the brains crave and 28 00:01:39,620 --> 00:01:43,360 what toddlers naturally do like, I'm asking you, like, 52 29 00:01:43,540 --> 00:01:47,200 questions at once, but you just take it away and give us your 30 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:52,840 insight on how cognitive science matches what we're talking 31 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,480 about. Constantly, we were having pre discussions about 32 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:58,660 what we were going to talk about today. We've had discussions 33 00:01:58,660 --> 00:02:05,580 about dots for a long time, you and I, we've had conversations 34 00:02:05,580 --> 00:02:10,920 with some of our students in the past about dots, one of the dots 35 00:02:10,980 --> 00:02:18,000 patterns that you utilize to represent equation. We have some 36 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:25,100 samples from kids that we have looked at in the past. But one 37 00:02:25,100 --> 00:02:30,020 of the things that triggered me earlier this week, we were 38 00:02:30,020 --> 00:02:35,240 talking about representation of dots in a different form. We 39 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:40,660 were looking at it with a board, and one of the things that I was 40 00:02:40,660 --> 00:02:44,080 thinking about was representing dots on a pegboard. 41 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:49,960 We have these different dots available. What I don't have is 42 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:53,920 one of those foam boards. I just don't have any in stock at the 43 00:02:53,920 --> 00:02:57,520 moment there at school, and you know how that is. But they often 44 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:02,040 have this big knobby peg that's three times this size. It has 45 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,040 that knob on the end, like this one 46 00:03:06,660 --> 00:03:11,220 was it? Those big knobbies are going to be better for kids who 47 00:03:11,220 --> 00:03:16,020 are struggling with fine motor skills. What's nice about foam 48 00:03:16,980 --> 00:03:20,720 is you can pop it in and out, because looking at different 49 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:26,120 ways that we represent dots. The other way is really a bigger 50 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:31,880 dot, but parketry also creates patterns like dots. For those of 51 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:36,260 you listening to the podcast, I suggest that you pop over to the 52 00:03:36,260 --> 00:03:41,140 YouTube channel and look at this segment so that you can see what 53 00:03:41,140 --> 00:03:46,780 we're talking about, because the dot representations and how the 54 00:03:46,780 --> 00:03:51,220 kids represented the pattern that they were copying is really 55 00:03:51,220 --> 00:03:51,940 impactful. 56 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:56,860 These dots represented on a piece of grid paper. I don't 57 00:03:56,860 --> 00:04:00,420 know if you can see the dots in here, but she was trying to 58 00:04:00,420 --> 00:04:04,440 mimic an image that she had seen earlier that day. 59 00:04:06,540 --> 00:04:10,500 Jason was trying to mimic the image. Was a bit of a shot. We 60 00:04:10,500 --> 00:04:14,220 can see the dots a little bit better on on this image. 61 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:20,240 You need to know what the image was, to know whether he's doing 62 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:27,800 a good job at representing that the images, but he's keeping his 63 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:32,000 circles inside the dots. He's doing a pretty nice job of 64 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:34,040 representing the fine motor skills. 65 00:04:35,540 --> 00:04:39,920 This little one, Lacey, she made circles out of it. She got 66 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:45,700 started, but got stuck on expanding Lane looks like the 67 00:04:45,700 --> 00:04:49,420 top part of it is formed nice. It's got nice circles, and the 68 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:54,100 nice hand form on the pencil looks like he's got a pretty 69 00:04:54,100 --> 00:04:56,920 nice pencil grip. And we come up with something like this that 70 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:59,920 Zane did, and he knew he. 71 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:04,680 Was trying to make an X, but had no idea how to represent the 72 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:10,200 blocks and the dots. Karen, it's almost there's a left side and a 73 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:14,400 right side. They're all separate. They're not blended. 74 00:05:15,060 --> 00:05:17,760 She had the idea, but could not 75 00:05:18,780 --> 00:05:22,040 write it and represent it. This is what happens with a lot of 76 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:26,360 kids with writing skills, the there's a disconnect between 77 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,960 what they see visually and what they can put on paper. One of 78 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:34,400 the reasons that John Lee and I really meshed when we first met 79 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:43,660 is we have in mathematics a need to understand and relate some of 80 00:05:43,660 --> 00:05:48,220 the disconnects there are neurologically with what they're 81 00:05:48,220 --> 00:05:50,020 seeing in the math classroom. 82 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:55,180 Chris is working. He's got an okay pencil grip. He looks like 83 00:05:55,180 --> 00:05:59,320 his. He could be doing a little bit better with his grip. He's 84 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,820 loose on there, but he's making circles. He started at the 85 00:06:02,820 --> 00:06:05,220 outside, so he knew he had to start wide and come to the 86 00:06:05,220 --> 00:06:05,700 middle. 87 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:11,100 He may be processing it a little bit slower than some of the 88 00:06:11,100 --> 00:06:14,580 other kids. Then we have this one. She knew she was making an 89 00:06:14,580 --> 00:06:16,740 X, but that's all that she can manage. 90 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,200 And here we have one is, oh, this is wrong. Oh, this is 91 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:24,200 wrong. And doing a lot of erasers. That's what happens 92 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:28,400 with kids with memory issues. They'll do a lot of erasers. And 93 00:06:28,460 --> 00:06:33,440 perfectionists also want to do a lot of erasers and crossing out 94 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:37,880 and redoing things. Sherry, I'm gonna say something here about 95 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:43,300 Jeb, that last one that you did in looking at just without 96 00:06:43,300 --> 00:06:49,060 knowing the context, you might think that Jeb has a lot of 97 00:06:49,060 --> 00:06:55,900 deficiencies and gaps. Jeb does have some interesting brain 98 00:06:55,900 --> 00:06:56,980 disconnects, 99 00:06:58,300 --> 00:07:02,820 but from this picture, you can't tell this. And I know who this 100 00:07:02,820 --> 00:07:10,140 student is. He actually, conceptually, is very high 101 00:07:10,140 --> 00:07:14,160 achieving mathematically. Sherry, this proves, on this 102 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:19,140 one, the disconnect between what kids are seeing, what's in their 103 00:07:19,140 --> 00:07:23,300 brain, what they can analyze mathematically, which sometimes 104 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:27,500 is a higher level than the teacher. And these kiddos were 105 00:07:27,500 --> 00:07:31,760 in kindergarten at the time, and he was actually teaching me 106 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:38,300 things about mathematics, but then to show that on paper, it 107 00:07:38,300 --> 00:07:43,360 is a huge struggle for him and pushing on the pencil very 108 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:47,920 heavily. So he's got some other issues. I'm going to say, 109 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:51,940 however, they're not with math content. So I wanted to point 110 00:07:51,940 --> 00:07:53,140 that out on this picture. 111 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:58,660 Then we have somebody like Ray, who is not 112 00:07:59,740 --> 00:08:03,180 maybe the fine motor, and making the dot wasn't good, but he's 113 00:08:03,180 --> 00:08:07,320 still doing three by three squares that he's coloring them 114 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:13,200 in. Somebody Melissa thought she did a fantastic job. Our friend 115 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:18,360 Randy. Randy had a real difficult time with his visual 116 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:19,260 perception. 117 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:24,080 Whether he had initiation of tasks, those executive functions 118 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:28,820 were getting in the way, or he really had no concept, but he 119 00:08:28,820 --> 00:08:32,300 knew he had to do something on paper. I hope that represents 120 00:08:32,300 --> 00:08:35,720 and answers a little bit about where you wanted me to go. 121 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:36,200 Generally, 122 00:08:37,460 --> 00:08:43,360 look at visual spatial dysgraphia. Dots are they 123 00:08:43,420 --> 00:08:46,840 staying within the lines and the bottom lines, are they able to 124 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:51,820 see the overlaps of the dots? Are they able to 125 00:08:53,140 --> 00:08:57,160 represent what they see visually? And that's one of the 126 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:02,520 reasons I've like your what do you see? Question, because if we 127 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:06,540 can have them verbalize what they're seeing first before we 128 00:09:06,540 --> 00:09:09,060 write it down, we can more 129 00:09:10,140 --> 00:09:16,200 differentially analyze where the disconnect is. Is it the visual? 130 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:21,380 If it's the visual, we need to start there. Is it what they're 131 00:09:21,380 --> 00:09:26,960 writing? Is it that motor skill, is there some disconnect with 132 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:32,480 their memory? It's breaking it down into its parts, looking at 133 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:36,500 it from a visual, a motor and a memory standpoint, 134 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:41,800 we're looking at it to try and differentiate where the 135 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:45,760 neurological gap is you're looking at and then how do they 136 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:49,000 represent their understanding of number? 137 00:09:50,740 --> 00:09:54,280 And I like that you interrupted me there, because sometimes 138 00:09:54,820 --> 00:09:57,280 their understanding of number and their understanding of 139 00:09:57,280 --> 00:09:59,920 visual perception are not aligned. And. 140 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,100 Yeah, I like that you interrupted me there, because 141 00:10:02,100 --> 00:10:05,880 sometimes their understanding of number and their understanding 142 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:09,240 of visual perception are not aligned, that what you just 143 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:13,080 said, they're not aligned creates, and I haven't talked 144 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:17,940 about this yet, but that false negative kiddo, I'll explain 145 00:10:17,940 --> 00:10:21,620 what I mean by that. Earlier I talked about the false positive 146 00:10:21,620 --> 00:10:26,000 kiddo that is appearing to achieve high does well on tests, 147 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:29,660 can mimic the notation, but doesn't have this deep sense of 148 00:10:29,660 --> 00:10:32,960 conceptual understandings when given something out of context, 149 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:36,200 or a more comprehensive test, like an A CT, they don't score 150 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:39,320 well there, and we're confused as the adults, because it 151 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:44,080 doesn't match what we typically see from them in school. On the 152 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:48,220 flip side of that, we get these kiddos that what Sherry just 153 00:10:48,220 --> 00:10:54,340 said, the mathematics and the visual perception, they don't 154 00:10:54,340 --> 00:10:59,140 align. So we get a false negative reading on kids when 155 00:10:59,140 --> 00:11:04,560 we're asking kids to replicate or use the visual to figure out 156 00:11:04,560 --> 00:11:08,700 the mathematics. Many of them struggle to do that on paper. 157 00:11:08,700 --> 00:11:11,520 That's that misalignment that Sherry's talking about. When 158 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:15,480 that misalignment happens, I can't use that paper form to 159 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,960 truly assess what the kids understanding is in that 160 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:22,460 specific example that she had just shown we have to be really 161 00:11:22,460 --> 00:11:28,280 savvy as the adults to know if this is a misalignment, and not 162 00:11:28,460 --> 00:11:29,900 falsely 163 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:35,180 target a child for math intervention that actually has a 164 00:11:35,180 --> 00:11:39,860 separate issue, and it's not the mathematics. This is how we 165 00:11:39,860 --> 00:11:43,480 expose conceptual understanding in mathematics by using these 166 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:47,260 dots, and that's what I mean by assessment of watching these 167 00:11:47,260 --> 00:11:50,560 kids work. We had a session not too long ago where one of our 168 00:11:50,560 --> 00:11:53,500 participants, one of our teachers on the session, said, 169 00:11:53,560 --> 00:11:58,480 is what you're talking about, like, when kids know the answer 170 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:02,460 but they don't show their work. And that's absolutely what I'm 171 00:12:02,460 --> 00:12:06,660 talking about here. Kids that can look at DOT images or look 172 00:12:06,660 --> 00:12:10,200 at mathematics and they're accurate, they can actually 173 00:12:10,260 --> 00:12:14,760 solve, they can actually count, they can get the answer. And we 174 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:20,220 demand that they show their work. This sometimes is a demand 175 00:12:20,220 --> 00:12:24,860 that the kiddo is just not capable of. They just physically 176 00:12:24,860 --> 00:12:29,300 can't now that's what they need the intervention for. But what 177 00:12:29,300 --> 00:12:33,140 happens is, oftentimes, we give them this lecture. If you don't 178 00:12:33,140 --> 00:12:36,020 show your work, I can't give you partial credit, so I have to 179 00:12:36,020 --> 00:12:40,420 take all the points away. What we're doing is we're reducing 180 00:12:40,420 --> 00:12:44,680 the number of points they get based on something they're not 181 00:12:44,680 --> 00:12:47,200 even capable of doing. When we're thinking about 182 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:50,020 intervention, whether it's math intervention or therapy 183 00:12:50,020 --> 00:12:53,980 intervention, we need to be able to analyze and work with as 184 00:12:53,980 --> 00:12:56,620 classroom teachers and educators, be able to work with 185 00:12:56,620 --> 00:12:59,740 our direct service providers to make sure that we're assessing 186 00:12:59,740 --> 00:13:02,400 the correct thing. If you have a kid that's not showing their 187 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:06,240 work in mathematics, it's probably because that is where 188 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:10,020 they need the intervention to help them show on paper what 189 00:13:10,020 --> 00:13:13,020 they're getting accurately. Because, again, they probably 190 00:13:13,020 --> 00:13:15,840 know more mathematically than we do as teacher, 191 00:13:16,860 --> 00:13:20,600 but where their deficit is being able to articulate that and 192 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,740 those false negative kids, which means they know more mathematics 193 00:13:24,740 --> 00:13:27,140 than what we're giving them credit for. Those are the kids 194 00:13:27,140 --> 00:13:31,100 that we sometimes say, Oh, they just don't test well, no, they 195 00:13:31,100 --> 00:13:34,760 just aren't seeing the notation and symbol, and they're just not 196 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:38,060 able to replicate that. And that's where we need to provide 197 00:13:38,060 --> 00:13:42,100 the intervention, which one of the interventions is giving them 198 00:13:42,100 --> 00:13:47,560 more experiences on creating mathematics using dots. Picture 199 00:13:47,560 --> 00:13:50,680 is not 1000 words. Go ahead, Sherry, one of the things that I 200 00:13:50,680 --> 00:13:53,200 want to emphasize to the occupational therapists that are 201 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:58,840 listening to this is, please include the symbols, math 202 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:04,500 symbols in your therapy sessions, explain why a 203 00:14:04,500 --> 00:14:10,320 parentheses goes to the right versus goes to the left. Explain 204 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:17,580 it, and not just in literacy terms, but also explain it in 205 00:14:17,580 --> 00:14:21,980 its connection to mathematics. What are three ways that you can 206 00:14:21,980 --> 00:14:27,440 represent the divide sign. You have the dots on the top and the 207 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:33,740 bottom. You have a fraction which just has the line, and you 208 00:14:33,740 --> 00:14:39,560 have a horizontal equation. You can have it with the thing 209 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:43,480 almost looks like a square root that line, you've got the dots, 210 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,780 you've got just a line. And what are some of those other ways 211 00:14:46,780 --> 00:14:50,740 that you can talk to your students about the 212 00:14:50,740 --> 00:14:55,300 representation of those symbols and make connections for 213 00:14:55,300 --> 00:14:58,900 mathematics? I think I just in my brain, created a new 214 00:14:58,900 --> 00:14:59,920 worksheet for my. 215 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:04,200 How many ways can you represent the divide sign? I remember, 216 00:15:04,260 --> 00:15:08,040 gosh, we were working together. Maybe this was back in 2019 217 00:15:09,780 --> 00:15:14,160 it was, I'm pretty sure it was before covid, and you put up 218 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:18,540 something that to this day, I still go, I 219 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:23,960 she went off on a crazy tangent, and I still don't know that I 220 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:30,020 fully understand it, and I represent it often, because it 221 00:15:30,020 --> 00:15:33,440 made that much of an impact on me. And you asked me, How many 222 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:38,000 ways can I write eight over 12? And I looked at you and I went, 223 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:42,580 give me a calculator, because to me, I automatically know what 224 00:15:42,580 --> 00:15:47,500 the procedure is. I know how to get the answer on the 225 00:15:47,500 --> 00:15:48,460 calculator. 226 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:53,680 Don't ask me, How many ways to represent it. You did this thing 227 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:57,040 called 20 ways, and one of the ways that you did it was with 228 00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:01,320 dots, and that was different ways to represent that 229 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:04,740 particular number, and I just sat back 230 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,360 and I went, I have a long way to go with understanding 231 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:14,400 mathematics. And I thought that I understood mathematics until I 232 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:15,600 sat with you for a day. 233 00:16:19,020 --> 00:16:23,480 But that really sums up my story as well. I was that I'm going to 234 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:28,220 say false positive kid in K 12, I achieved high I was always 235 00:16:28,220 --> 00:16:31,580 told I was good at mathematics. I always had this perception 236 00:16:31,580 --> 00:16:34,340 that I was good at mathematics. Got good grades in mathematics. 237 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:38,480 So I decided to actually major in a mathematics area in 238 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,200 college, I started in Actuarial science, but as a sophomore in 239 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,660 college, I failed my first math class, and it really made me 240 00:16:43,660 --> 00:16:47,140 question my own understanding, just like Sherry said she came 241 00:16:47,140 --> 00:16:50,020 to that realization at some point that, wow, do I really 242 00:16:50,020 --> 00:16:53,740 even know anything at all about mathematics. So I failed that 243 00:16:53,740 --> 00:16:56,800 math class, switched out of actuarial science. That's how 244 00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:00,960 much it affected me. Majored in just pure math in college. Took 245 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:05,100 me five years to get the four year degree, and then decided to 246 00:17:05,100 --> 00:17:08,040 go on and get my certification to teach. And I thought, oh, I 247 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,040 can teach eighth grade mathematics because I at least 248 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:14,160 know enough to teach eighth grade mathematics. What happened 249 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:16,440 was, in the first two or three weeks of my first year of 250 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:20,900 teaching, I I thought, I'm a brilliant teacher, and I would 251 00:17:20,900 --> 00:17:25,100 give my quizzes and my tests, and about half of my students 252 00:17:25,100 --> 00:17:29,420 were not able to do what I taught them. I was really 253 00:17:29,420 --> 00:17:31,820 questioning where that disconnect was, and the 254 00:17:31,820 --> 00:17:35,300 realization I came to was I really don't know math well 255 00:17:35,300 --> 00:17:40,660 enough to be able to give access to this mathematics. We did 256 00:17:40,660 --> 00:17:44,920 almost full inclusion. We still had some resource room for math, 257 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:49,420 where we had, like, pure tier 300% pull out for mathematics, 258 00:17:49,420 --> 00:17:54,820 but we were trying to really get full inclusion tier one core 259 00:17:54,820 --> 00:17:59,920 classroom, and my we're recording this live today, and 260 00:17:59,920 --> 00:18:05,520 my intervention specialist who helped guide me through this 261 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:09,120 realization of, do we really even know the mathematics to 262 00:18:09,120 --> 00:18:13,020 better support our students is actually here. Live with us 263 00:18:13,020 --> 00:18:16,380 today. You know who you are. Thank you for being here. Would 264 00:18:16,380 --> 00:18:18,120 you like this morning? Hello. 265 00:18:19,380 --> 00:18:24,500 This is, this is a fun story. Take us back, Christy, 1999 266 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:33,140 you saw this very young, early, 20 year old girl come in and 267 00:18:33,260 --> 00:18:36,980 over the next five or six years, as we collaborated and worked 268 00:18:36,980 --> 00:18:39,740 together, you as intervention specialist, me as math classroom 269 00:18:39,740 --> 00:18:44,020 teacher. Give me your perspective of this journey that 270 00:18:44,020 --> 00:18:47,920 we actually took together, I feel like I was in the same boat 271 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:52,660 as you, as a student, where I always got great grades. I was 272 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:56,140 not necessarily a straight A math student, but I could play 273 00:18:56,140 --> 00:19:01,260 the math student. I could do the math. Just show me what to do, 274 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:05,820 and I can follow the steps and I can get the right answer. I feel 275 00:19:05,820 --> 00:19:09,180 like when we first started teaching together, we were like, 276 00:19:09,180 --> 00:19:15,960 Okay, if I can give these kids tricks and mnemonics to remember 277 00:19:16,260 --> 00:19:20,960 how to do long division and how do subtraction and how to do 278 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:24,560 different procedures, that it's okay the kids have it. If I 279 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:28,520 write those mnemonics out and I write the steps out, the kids 280 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:32,600 can go home and they can do it for homework. Then in two weeks 281 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:36,200 from now, I give them a problem again, and they have no idea. 282 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:40,840 How do we even start? I feel like what we learned together is 283 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:46,720 that a lot of times we have kids that can play the math game and 284 00:19:46,780 --> 00:19:52,480 they can do the procedures, but in the end, they have absolutely 285 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:56,620 no idea what they're doing and why. They didn't really 286 00:19:56,620 --> 00:19:59,920 understand the math. They didn't have the. 287 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,180 Number Sense, that's the biggest thing I felt. Was our journey 288 00:20:03,180 --> 00:20:08,940 working together was, how do we get kids to understand what 289 00:20:08,940 --> 00:20:13,860 they're doing and why? Which is that whole importance of number 290 00:20:13,860 --> 00:20:17,520 sense? And how can we improve number sense in kids? That's 291 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:22,280 exactly the neurological philosophy neurodevelopmentally 292 00:20:22,340 --> 00:20:28,040 gifted students will be able to figure things out and understand 293 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:33,440 them in a few sessions, typical kids a couple more, but kids 294 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,740 with disabilities and kids who are truly struggling. 295 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,680 Initially, I had heard 60, but lately, I've been hearing more 296 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:42,160 like 300 297 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:49,900 times you you need to represent the number two, 300 times. How 298 00:20:49,900 --> 00:20:55,060 do we get more interactions with kids so that it increases their 299 00:20:55,060 --> 00:20:58,960 memory and retention, and that is through visuals. That's 300 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,820 really what the phrase a picture is worth 1000 words mean. And 301 00:21:03,120 --> 00:21:06,240 one thing I want to connect to what Christy said is, and I'm 302 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,120 going to say this a different way, but it's what we learned in 303 00:21:09,120 --> 00:21:13,560 our journey, is that oftentimes we can get kids to replicate 304 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:17,280 short term. Some of these kids, we can give quizzes and tests in 305 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:21,500 our classroom, and they could score very high, because it's in 306 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:26,720 that short term, they're able to retain the information just long 307 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,860 enough to produce on my quizzes and tests, but then we give a 308 00:21:30,860 --> 00:21:34,700 midterm or a final exam, or the end of the year assessment or 309 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,120 the state test at the end of the year, where they have all of 310 00:21:38,120 --> 00:21:42,160 these concepts all At once, where they have to pull from 311 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:46,060 their memory and things that happened five or six months ago. 312 00:21:46,360 --> 00:21:49,180 That's where the breakdown is. We have some of these kids that 313 00:21:49,180 --> 00:21:53,320 achieve very high they get A's and B's in math class, but then 314 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:57,640 they fail, or come close to failing that end of year test. 315 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,540 And we're like, oh, they're just not a good test taker. No, that 316 00:22:00,540 --> 00:22:05,460 has nothing to do with it at all. Their brain has not learned 317 00:22:05,460 --> 00:22:10,440 in the way that increased the memory of this content, and 318 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,260 they're not able to retain a lot of teachers talk about this. 319 00:22:13,380 --> 00:22:16,080 Also, when kids move through the grades, they get to fifth, 320 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:18,480 sixth, seventh grade, and the teacher says, These kids don't 321 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:20,720 know this. And the third and fourth grade teachers are like, 322 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,660 Oh my gosh, we spent so much time on this. We did this with 323 00:22:23,660 --> 00:22:28,340 kids. The problem was they were able to get it short term, but 324 00:22:28,340 --> 00:22:31,340 without those visuals, we're losing that long term memory and 325 00:22:31,340 --> 00:22:32,000 retention. 326 00:22:33,500 --> 00:22:36,260 So let's jump more into the mathematics. If you want to hear 327 00:22:36,260 --> 00:22:39,740 a little bit more about that conversation, go to tier one 328 00:22:39,740 --> 00:22:44,440 interventions.com sign up for the workshop, and you'll get the 329 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:47,680 rest of the conversation. It is impact 330 00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:53,020 inclusion. And when I talk about inclusion, I'm talking full 331 00:22:53,020 --> 00:22:55,540 inclusion. How are we going to reduce 332 00:22:56,620 --> 00:23:04,380 pull out sessions to zero? I know it's in it might not be the 333 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:09,840 perfect for all kids, but the full inclusion, if we're really 334 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:13,800 looking at the definition, it requires professional 335 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,080 development. It requires 336 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:22,940 pull in sessions for all disciplines. So inclusion is the 337 00:23:22,940 --> 00:23:26,600 first one, metacognition, thinking about thinking. And 338 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:30,680 that's all of these words and all of these phrases and these 339 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:34,400 little nuances that jonily All the time. What do you see? What 340 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:35,780 do you notice? Tell me about 341 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:41,680 number three is perseverance. When we're toddlers, we're 342 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,320 running around, we're curious, we're doing all these wonderful 343 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:48,280 things. We're always trying to take the next challenge. How 344 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:52,600 often does it take a toddler to learn how to walk? A few weeks. 345 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,500 How long does it take an 83 year old, after they've had a stroke, 346 00:23:56,500 --> 00:23:57,760 to learn how to walk again? 347 00:23:59,260 --> 00:24:03,960 Not a few weeks. Takes much longer. When we're looking at 348 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:08,340 perseverance, we're looking at helping them create an innate 349 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:12,660 sense of drive and motivation to accomplish something. 350 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,460 When we're looking at a we're looking at adaptability. 351 00:24:18,120 --> 00:24:23,120 Adaptability is more than just physically adapting the 352 00:24:23,120 --> 00:24:28,940 worksheet, adaptability is also a change in a shift in your 353 00:24:28,940 --> 00:24:29,540 mind. 354 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:36,020 When we're looking at See, we're looking at curiosity. 355 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,800 I mentioned the toddler a little bit ago, looking around and 356 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:46,960 doing all kinds of wonderful activities and being absolutely 357 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,380 curious about their surroundings. We put them in 358 00:24:50,380 --> 00:24:54,460 kindergarten. Here you need to sit in this seat. We can find 359 00:24:54,460 --> 00:24:54,820 them. 360 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,920 We teach them this structure that we've created. 361 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:04,080 It in the system so that we can get all kids learning at the 362 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,240 same time. I would love to see, 363 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:11,160 especially in middle school, kids on treadmills learning 364 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:11,640 math. 365 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,680 There's been a research study that talks about it, where they 366 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,620 were had in this special ed class of kids who were failing 367 00:25:19,620 --> 00:25:23,840 math, they started putting they put treadmills in the classroom 368 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:29,480 for these this particular set of students. All six students, Aced 369 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:33,440 their state testing that year because every time they came 370 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,100 into math, they had the treadmill at a low rate of speed 371 00:25:37,220 --> 00:25:39,080 so they could still hear the teacher, 372 00:25:40,100 --> 00:25:43,660 and their math scores skyrocketed, and they got the 373 00:25:43,660 --> 00:25:44,560 concepts 374 00:25:45,700 --> 00:25:49,180 before you say the last one, I'm going to give the definition of 375 00:25:49,180 --> 00:25:54,580 this last one before we say the word that he is a new path that 376 00:25:54,580 --> 00:26:00,480 doesn't yet exist, that Sherry and I are Creating and hoping 377 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:05,700 that it catches on. This isn't in addition to, it's instead of, 378 00:26:06,300 --> 00:26:08,040 it's the better way. 379 00:26:09,120 --> 00:26:13,980 It's the path unpaved that we have all the research to back 380 00:26:13,980 --> 00:26:18,360 it, and now we just need to take the step so Sherry, give it to 381 00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:21,680 us. What's that last word that I've just transcendence. It's a 382 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:22,340 journey. 383 00:26:23,540 --> 00:26:28,160 It's not transformation which happens instantly. It's 384 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:35,000 transformation that happens from this point all the way to this 385 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:40,660 point and beyond. It's that concept of lifelong learning. 386 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:45,340 It's a concept of what we learn today 387 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:50,440 we integrate into our base of knowledge so that we can use it 388 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:51,100 tomorrow. 389 00:26:52,780 --> 00:26:55,480 All right, everybody. Have a great weekend, great end of the 390 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:57,220 school year, great summer, 391 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:03,000 and we resume these tier ones, September 21 the third, Saturday 392 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,540 of every month, I just go in, go into disability labs and 393 00:27:06,540 --> 00:27:09,120 register for September, October and November, the date 394 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:14,400 that way you're registered in your login so that you get all 395 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,080 the emails and the links and everything. 396 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,220 Hello, everybody. Happy Summer. You.