WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.940 Matt: Mark Zemanski, welcome back to the WP Minute. 00:00:02.930 --> 00:00:03.730 Mark: Matt Medeiros. 00:00:04.220 --> 00:00:05.130 It's always a pleasure. 00:00:05.430 --> 00:00:06.020 As if 00:00:06.350 --> 00:00:07.479 Matt: I'm dubbing it Emergency Pod. 00:00:07.479 --> 00:00:09.419 It's not quite an emergency pod, but there you go. 00:00:09.420 --> 00:00:11.879 We'll roll with it just to get the, uh, to get the clicks. 00:00:12.259 --> 00:00:14.680 Um, you put out, A tweet. 00:00:14.760 --> 00:00:16.490 We talked about this. 00:00:17.180 --> 00:00:21.599 Mmm, when I jumped on the WP Town Hall podcast, was it last week? 00:00:21.630 --> 00:00:22.650 With Chris 00:00:23.469 --> 00:00:24.899 Mark: Chris Pearson, yeah, last week. 00:00:24.899 --> 00:00:27.110 Yeah, maybe, maybe the week before, but yeah. 00:00:27.660 --> 00:00:30.470 Matt: Frame the question, frame the tweet, uh, for me. 00:00:30.480 --> 00:00:31.799 It's in the title, but go ahead, say it. 00:00:31.799 --> 00:00:32.670 What did you tweet out? 00:00:34.430 --> 00:00:38.530 Mark: Tweeted out, has the term open source been overused, and 00:00:38.530 --> 00:00:40.470 therefore now largely misinterpreted? 00:00:41.770 --> 00:00:42.890 Matt: Do you really feel that way? 00:00:44.330 --> 00:00:46.139 Mark: Uh, is this a therapy session? 00:00:46.410 --> 00:00:46.980 Uh, no. 00:00:47.040 --> 00:00:48.440 Uh, yeah, definitely. 00:00:48.540 --> 00:00:51.430 I mean, there's definitely, I ask questions because I don't have an answer. 00:00:51.460 --> 00:00:52.529 I don't have all the answers. 00:00:52.549 --> 00:00:55.690 You know, I look to everyone else to give me the wisdom and then I 00:00:55.690 --> 00:00:58.290 can kind of like piece it together. 00:00:58.440 --> 00:01:04.369 And, you know, you mentioned that WP Town Hall with Chris Pearson. 00:01:04.730 --> 00:01:05.869 Everybody should go check that out. 00:01:05.890 --> 00:01:06.539 Interesting things. 00:01:06.539 --> 00:01:08.350 We're probably going to call on some of the things from there. 00:01:08.890 --> 00:01:13.200 This question was, It had something to do with that, maybe, uh, and obviously 00:01:13.200 --> 00:01:15.530 everything else that we've heard about in open source LAN and everything 00:01:15.530 --> 00:01:17.150 like that for the last, however long. 00:01:17.580 --> 00:01:21.179 But the other big thing was, the specific thing, the reason that I tweeted, like, 00:01:21.179 --> 00:01:23.789 you know, when you see something and then you tweet, you know, a question 00:01:23.789 --> 00:01:29.635 out, was, I was watching a video, and it was about WordPress, like kind 00:01:29.635 --> 00:01:32.745 of alternatives and just other, you know, like other platforms, basically 00:01:32.745 --> 00:01:35.554 just kind of like looking into like Webflow and Wix and all the other ones. 00:01:35.965 --> 00:01:39.234 And I normally go to the comments and I just kind of see like what people 00:01:39.234 --> 00:01:41.435 are thinking because we're always trying to do that type of research. 00:01:41.435 --> 00:01:44.415 And somebody said something to the tune of, Hey, this is a nice 00:01:44.415 --> 00:01:49.774 list, but there aren't any open source platforms on this list. 00:01:49.955 --> 00:01:52.824 As you know, again, you would think alternative to WordPress. 00:01:53.125 --> 00:01:55.394 WordPress is one of its biggest things is open source. 00:01:56.315 --> 00:01:57.565 So that's the concept there. 00:01:57.565 --> 00:02:02.475 And that got me thinking, I was like, I hear this word open source so much. 00:02:02.634 --> 00:02:05.844 It has value, but I just feel like it's one of those things that have 00:02:05.844 --> 00:02:09.125 been almost like the concept of searching for something on the 00:02:09.125 --> 00:02:11.124 internet has become now Googled. 00:02:11.254 --> 00:02:14.984 It's like, it's, it's almost like you just say it and you think it means 00:02:14.995 --> 00:02:19.144 something, but it itself doesn't really mean the thing that you're talking about, 00:02:19.144 --> 00:02:21.195 but you've attached to these other. 00:02:21.744 --> 00:02:24.795 Pieces to it, and I'm not saying that open source is bad. 00:02:24.804 --> 00:02:28.484 That's not what I'm saying with this I just think that we just throw it around 00:02:28.484 --> 00:02:31.774 at this point And I feel like there's way more things underneath it that 00:02:31.774 --> 00:02:35.845 we've literally seen in WordPress now When we kept saying open source, open 00:02:35.845 --> 00:02:37.975 source, open source, but it's like, there's really two different things. 00:02:37.975 --> 00:02:41.005 There's like the technology, and like the code, and then there's 00:02:41.015 --> 00:02:44.715 also the actual brand, and all that sort of other stuff there, so. 00:02:45.445 --> 00:02:48.284 Matt: Let's play the clip from your, uh, WP Town Hall. 00:02:48.284 --> 00:02:52.535 This is where you pose the question to Chris Pearson about, uh, open source. 00:02:52.694 --> 00:02:53.474 Feedback loop. 00:02:53.475 --> 00:02:53.974 Here we go. 00:04:01.464 --> 00:04:04.935 Uh, we'll try to link up the, uh, rest of that episode in the show notes. 00:04:04.935 --> 00:04:08.285 WP Town Hall, search for it on Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts. 00:04:08.285 --> 00:04:11.735 And you can listen to the last episode with Chris Pearson, uh, 00:04:11.745 --> 00:04:15.494 featuring, of course, the hosts, Mark Szymanski and Kevin Geary. 00:04:15.495 --> 00:04:21.344 Um, yeah, I mean, I think he distilled, Chris distills it 00:04:21.375 --> 00:04:22.455 down into those two areas. 00:04:22.474 --> 00:04:29.745 I agree with you that oftentimes, uh, people, uh, We'll start to 00:04:31.695 --> 00:04:33.344 give a new meaning to a word. 00:04:34.245 --> 00:04:39.525 This goes well beyond WordPress , but can, can give a meaning to a, a word or 00:04:39.525 --> 00:04:44.385 a phrase, and over time, either dilute it, change it, uh, or what have you. 00:04:45.045 --> 00:04:48.525 I think, and I did get into a, a bit of a, a debate with 00:04:48.525 --> 00:04:50.205 Chris on that podcast episode. 00:04:50.655 --> 00:04:53.745 Uh, 'cause I called in and, and, uh, sort of talked to him 00:04:53.745 --> 00:04:54.795 about this open source thing. 00:04:54.795 --> 00:04:56.625 The thing that gets me, well, let me start with this. 00:04:56.625 --> 00:04:57.525 The thing that gets me with. 00:04:58.170 --> 00:05:03.740 Uh, Pearson, especially in the context of your episode is on one hand, 00:05:03.770 --> 00:05:08.700 he's, uh, building success off of the back of an open source project, 00:05:08.700 --> 00:05:13.060 but at the same time saying that open source is a big, big red flag. 00:05:13.329 --> 00:05:16.820 I've seen and heard this across the, our space for a while now, and it's 00:05:16.829 --> 00:05:22.590 not something I can really wrap my head around, um, because I look at that and 00:05:22.599 --> 00:05:24.739 go, well, don't you see the benefits? 00:05:25.320 --> 00:05:26.210 Of open source. 00:05:26.219 --> 00:05:29.430 I'm not saying you necessarily have to agree with everything in it. 00:05:30.420 --> 00:05:33.660 Or pull all the levers in it, which we'll break down in a moment. 00:05:34.070 --> 00:05:40.590 But, can't you see the, the, the driving success that at least WordPress 00:05:40.590 --> 00:05:42.249 has had for the last 20 years? 00:05:42.759 --> 00:05:45.420 Maybe we're coming too ahead of all that stuff, but still. 00:05:45.849 --> 00:05:51.690 If you launch Thesis, one of the most popular premium themes many years ago. 00:05:52.090 --> 00:05:52.690 Imprinted. 00:05:53.680 --> 00:05:55.630 I don't know, using his words, I think millions of dollars, 00:05:55.630 --> 00:05:57.150 eight million of dollars. 00:05:57.590 --> 00:06:00.430 Um, man, don't you see the success in that? 00:06:00.460 --> 00:06:04.320 And I think that that's such a hard thing for me to wrap my head around. 00:06:04.320 --> 00:06:08.639 When I see folks who have been successful because of open source also say it's 00:06:08.639 --> 00:06:11.040 not really a thing that we should want. 00:06:11.700 --> 00:06:13.790 And it blows my mind quite honestly. 00:06:16.060 --> 00:06:16.340 Mark: Yeah. 00:06:16.580 --> 00:06:17.170 Matt: I mean, 00:06:18.510 --> 00:06:21.050 Mark: I, I think that. 00:06:22.609 --> 00:06:26.570 Using that as the example, and we, you know, we, we had that episode. 00:06:26.629 --> 00:06:29.369 I thought there was a lot of interesting topics that were brought up there, and 00:06:29.369 --> 00:06:33.889 the way that Chris kind of defines open source is, you know, I think he says in 00:06:33.889 --> 00:06:38.499 there, it's like, it's free, and then, you know, and I tried to, I tried to 00:06:38.499 --> 00:06:41.889 understand it, because it was kind of hard to understand, like, the exact, the 00:06:41.889 --> 00:06:45.749 exact way that he described it, and like, he was talking about his platform and how 00:06:45.749 --> 00:06:46.749 it would be and all that sort of stuff. 00:06:47.330 --> 00:06:49.609 I don't know, here's where my mind goes with this type of stuff. 00:06:49.679 --> 00:06:54.489 It's like Open source until it gets to a point where it's not 00:06:54.670 --> 00:06:56.550 your type of open source anymore. 00:06:56.670 --> 00:06:58.770 Is one of the themes that I've seen. 00:06:59.180 --> 00:07:01.170 I think we kind of see that in WordPress a little bit. 00:07:01.170 --> 00:07:04.229 Like, you know, now that it's getting to a point where, you know, 00:07:04.229 --> 00:07:06.580 WordPress is just the biggest one that we can kind of pull from. 00:07:06.609 --> 00:07:11.450 And I'm not as extremely, uh, experienced with like a Drupal or 00:07:11.450 --> 00:07:12.840 anything else that are like this. 00:07:12.849 --> 00:07:14.130 You could probably tell me more there. 00:07:14.130 --> 00:07:19.890 I just think that at a certain point it becomes where It was a free software 00:07:19.890 --> 00:07:24.060 that everyone loved and in the run up, it's incredibly beneficial to 00:07:24.060 --> 00:07:25.599 everyone for it to be open source. 00:07:26.319 --> 00:07:29.590 And again, I'm saying the word open source and in my mind, I'm like, 00:07:29.599 --> 00:07:31.099 that's not what open source means. 00:07:31.109 --> 00:07:32.079 It's open source. 00:07:32.080 --> 00:07:34.820 Just doesn't open source at the end of day just means that the 00:07:34.820 --> 00:07:36.560 code is everybody can see the code. 00:07:36.650 --> 00:07:41.000 And like, does it inherently mean that you can contribute to it or no? 00:07:41.780 --> 00:07:42.620 Matt: Uh, 00:07:42.940 --> 00:07:46.320 Mark: don't we get into like license territory and licenses are different? 00:07:46.790 --> 00:07:47.260 Matt: Yes. 00:07:47.300 --> 00:07:48.390 But this is kind of what 00:07:48.390 --> 00:07:51.530 Mark: I'm talking about though, is like, we say the word open source 00:07:51.550 --> 00:07:53.900 and like, isn't there normally like a license attached to it? 00:07:54.129 --> 00:07:56.030 And I understand people are just talking, you know, trying to 00:07:56.030 --> 00:07:57.129 get their points across quickly. 00:07:57.129 --> 00:08:01.830 But anytime I hear that, I'm like, it's, it's more nuanced than that. 00:08:01.870 --> 00:08:02.710 You'd love that word. 00:08:02.960 --> 00:08:03.540 I do love that 00:08:03.540 --> 00:08:03.870 Matt: phrase. 00:08:03.890 --> 00:08:05.310 It is always more nuanced than that. 00:08:05.310 --> 00:08:07.430 And you know, in the, in the thing that there, so there's like that. 00:08:08.760 --> 00:08:09.440 Pearson. 00:08:09.480 --> 00:08:15.895 Um, Component or viewpoint where You know, at the end of the day, I would 00:08:15.895 --> 00:08:17.724 just say, well, are you just greedy? 00:08:17.735 --> 00:08:19.505 Is that what this distills down to? 00:08:19.505 --> 00:08:21.695 Like, how can you, like, you built a business off it. 00:08:21.724 --> 00:08:24.405 Presumably you still, he still has thesis and themes and stuff. 00:08:24.405 --> 00:08:26.275 Like you're, you're, you're building a solution for WordPress. 00:08:26.294 --> 00:08:30.554 How could you hate, uh, or call out, uh, open source is a bad thing. 00:08:30.555 --> 00:08:33.794 It's literally, uh, the fuel for your business. 00:08:33.985 --> 00:08:35.145 So that part doesn't make sense. 00:08:35.145 --> 00:08:36.194 So there's that one camp. 00:08:36.574 --> 00:08:40.055 And then there's another camp where I think there's the extreme 00:08:40.055 --> 00:08:43.135 side of it where it's like, Hey, this open source WordPress thing. 00:08:44.030 --> 00:08:46.640 It's for all of us to have a say, to have the direction. 00:08:46.970 --> 00:08:49.940 Uh, don't like that pixel that you put on the dashboard. 00:08:49.980 --> 00:08:52.579 I want that changed and I want it changed now. 00:08:53.070 --> 00:08:57.219 Uh, there's that extreme side where people feel like, Well, 00:08:57.220 --> 00:08:58.790 we're all, we're all building this. 00:08:58.839 --> 00:09:02.110 This should all have, you should always have our say in this direction. 00:09:02.329 --> 00:09:04.140 And I don't agree with that side either. 00:09:04.760 --> 00:09:06.390 Uh, you know, I'm much more. 00:09:06.805 --> 00:09:13.795 My own personal opinion is much more where DHH from Basecamp sort of sits where 00:09:14.145 --> 00:09:19.585 the code is out there, it's open source, but I'm the driving force behind it. 00:09:19.595 --> 00:09:24.454 Like, this is my project or a collection of contributors projects, and this 00:09:24.454 --> 00:09:25.684 is the direction it's going in. 00:09:25.904 --> 00:09:33.164 It's open source, we'll certainly listen to your feedback in the case of WordPress. 00:09:34.900 --> 00:09:39.790 You know, we have GitHub, and of course we have SVN version control for WordPress 00:09:39.810 --> 00:09:41.000 core, but let's just call it GitHub. 00:09:41.270 --> 00:09:42.580 Like, yeah, we'll take your feedback. 00:09:42.639 --> 00:09:43.510 You can open up an issue. 00:09:43.530 --> 00:09:46.590 You can say, yeah, you know, change that button, add this feature. 00:09:46.700 --> 00:09:47.220 We'll listen. 00:09:47.490 --> 00:09:49.280 That doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to get it. 00:09:49.879 --> 00:09:55.690 Um, I think that WordPress has the best chance of like, hey, if I just 00:09:55.690 --> 00:09:58.510 want this one feature, nobody's going to really listen to me. 00:09:58.870 --> 00:10:02.649 But if a hundred people say they want this feature, and they, and they rally 00:10:02.650 --> 00:10:06.295 behind it, Well, now we have a better chance if a thousand people do it. 00:10:06.595 --> 00:10:10.115 Well, now we even have a better chance to get this deployed into WordPress. 00:10:10.265 --> 00:10:14.705 So I think WordPress gives us the best chance at that utopian scenario of open 00:10:14.705 --> 00:10:20.605 source, but I don't necessarily agree that it's guaranteed in my opinion. 00:10:21.895 --> 00:10:22.145 Mark: Yeah. 00:10:22.165 --> 00:10:26.895 I mean, I, where I'm going with that and where I'm thinking when 00:10:26.895 --> 00:10:30.355 you say all that is like, what, uh, 10 years ago, did you feel like. 00:10:31.680 --> 00:10:35.650 From a top down perspective of like WordPress, did you feel like it was more 00:10:36.440 --> 00:10:43.199 We are building this together, it's all of us in this together, we're going In 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:46.969 a direction that almost everybody wants, like everybody has a say in everything 00:10:46.969 --> 00:10:50.890 like that Contrast that, I'm assuming I know the answer to that question, 00:10:51.010 --> 00:10:52.170 what is the answer to that question? 00:10:54.100 --> 00:11:01.115 Matt: It's nuanced, but It's uh, I've never felt like it was uh I never 00:11:01.115 --> 00:11:05.065 felt, personally never felt like I was a part of building WordPress. 00:11:05.595 --> 00:11:09.645 I always felt like I was a part of supporting WordPress, if that makes sense. 00:11:10.335 --> 00:11:14.385 Like, I knew it would have its issues, you know? 00:11:14.625 --> 00:11:20.795 Um, but at the same time, like, I was there for the mission of, you know. 00:11:21.105 --> 00:11:22.335 That's how I've always approached it. 00:11:22.335 --> 00:11:26.895 I never felt like It was a me thing or I never said myself shoulder to 00:11:26.895 --> 00:11:29.975 shoulder with these other developers and said we I'm much more like 00:11:29.985 --> 00:11:31.155 you guys are doing a great job. 00:11:31.165 --> 00:11:31.925 Let me help you. 00:11:32.515 --> 00:11:36.795 Let me help you get this, uh, to the finish line with what I can do. 00:11:37.175 --> 00:11:41.505 Um, which is an interesting point because I believe there are people who feel 00:11:41.505 --> 00:11:46.552 very opinionated and, um, on both sides of like the positive and negative in 00:11:46.552 --> 00:11:49.185 the WordPress world where they like, I know I've committed code and nobody's 00:11:49.185 --> 00:11:52.045 listening to me where I committed code and they're not taking this. 00:11:52.535 --> 00:11:53.009 Um, yeah. 00:11:53.780 --> 00:11:54.430 Which should be. 00:11:54.480 --> 00:11:55.920 And that's something I don't know. 00:11:55.990 --> 00:11:58.030 I've never felt cause I just can't do that. 00:11:58.880 --> 00:11:59.750 I just can't do that. 00:11:59.870 --> 00:12:00.150 You know? 00:12:00.150 --> 00:12:05.170 Mark: Well, I, I don't have, again, I don't have specific answers and I 00:12:05.180 --> 00:12:08.040 don't, I'm not trying to criticize anyone with the things that I say. 00:12:08.040 --> 00:12:11.739 I just think of it like I really like this type of like human 00:12:11.760 --> 00:12:13.500 business psychology aspect. 00:12:13.520 --> 00:12:16.110 I don't know why, but I just like these nuanced topics. 00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:17.390 And I just feel that. 00:12:17.820 --> 00:12:21.350 From a pattern recognition standpoint, which I also feel like I somewhat can, 00:12:21.520 --> 00:12:25.999 can do reasonably well and like just see and observe is that I feel at a certain 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:30.659 point, it's always going to continue to go, it's going to manifest into this thing 00:12:30.660 --> 00:12:35.010 where every, it was smaller, it was more tightly knit, everything was like that. 00:12:35.169 --> 00:12:38.049 And it was like open source, like everybody's kind of driving and 00:12:38.109 --> 00:12:39.199 rowing the boat in the same point. 00:12:39.539 --> 00:12:42.310 I actually don't know of a way, and again, we've talked about this 00:12:42.310 --> 00:12:45.150 before, where WordPress has gotten to this point now where it's so big, I 00:12:45.150 --> 00:12:48.795 don't know if there's actually, It's like completely uncharted waters. 00:12:48.815 --> 00:12:51.025 I don't know how you could possibly make everyone happy. 00:12:51.195 --> 00:12:54.135 I don't think it's, I don't even know if it's possible to make everyone happy. 00:12:54.725 --> 00:12:59.205 But at the same time, I do think that there's like, There's conflicting 00:12:59.215 --> 00:13:02.725 things where maybe you have like, Just as a, as a, you know, as a 00:13:02.725 --> 00:13:05.855 figurehead, Matt Mullenweg has an idea for what he wants WordPress to be. 00:13:05.855 --> 00:13:09.605 He always has, and now he has to like, again, we've talked about it for X, Y, 00:13:09.615 --> 00:13:12.924 and Z reason has to actually like enact it a little bit more and put a little 00:13:12.924 --> 00:13:14.514 more pressure behind it or what have you. 00:13:14.825 --> 00:13:18.474 But then you also have like real, I mean, I'm sure it's always been like this. 00:13:18.495 --> 00:13:22.115 You would know there's always been thought leaders in this space of 00:13:22.205 --> 00:13:26.215 WordPress and WordPress adjacent web design, and they actually have. 00:13:27.175 --> 00:13:31.825 things that they say based in fact, reason, experience from all these 00:13:31.825 --> 00:13:36.054 other things that actually mean and make sense to a lot of people. 00:13:36.425 --> 00:13:39.244 And then a lot of times those views conflict. 00:13:39.815 --> 00:13:41.534 And I don't think it's like on purpose thing. 00:13:41.534 --> 00:13:44.545 It's literally just because humans have different thoughts and stuff like that. 00:13:44.795 --> 00:13:47.125 And this is where we kind of come and it all comes back a little 00:13:47.125 --> 00:13:49.755 bit to the open source thing because we have a project that. 00:13:49.810 --> 00:13:54.670 But I feel like, whether or not it was intentional or not, always kind of 00:13:54.680 --> 00:13:57.830 build as like, anytime you hear that word open source, it's like you're 00:13:57.830 --> 00:14:00.679 a part of it and you can enact like kind of the change and everything. 00:14:01.059 --> 00:14:04.340 But then it, then a lot of times other people, it doesn't end up 00:14:04.359 --> 00:14:06.450 feeling like that, especially when it gets to this level. 00:14:07.120 --> 00:14:08.149 Again, I don't have any answers. 00:14:08.210 --> 00:14:10.310 I'm just trying to observe that. 00:14:10.760 --> 00:14:11.180 So 00:14:11.880 --> 00:14:16.560 Matt: yeah, I think I, I rarely the glass half full kind of person, 00:14:16.570 --> 00:14:19.000 but in this case I am because. 00:14:19.375 --> 00:14:23.895 I just look at the alternative, which is absolutely zero say, 00:14:24.625 --> 00:14:26.185 right, in anything, you know? 00:14:26.185 --> 00:14:28.674 Um, 00:14:28.675 --> 00:14:29.844 Mark: you know The one thing I would say that 00:14:29.965 --> 00:14:30.055 Matt: Go 00:14:30.055 --> 00:14:30.215 Mark: ahead. 00:14:30.895 --> 00:14:33.075 I don't want to interrupt you with that, but I think it's a really important point. 00:14:33.095 --> 00:14:39.474 The one thing is that I do kind of feel like, whether it was explicit or not, 00:14:39.494 --> 00:14:42.825 or it has been explicit or not, maybe it's just like the stuff that I consume. 00:14:44.694 --> 00:14:48.710 Would you rather have like a complete Uh, I don't know what an ex like, 00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:52.400 complete, like, dictatorial approach where, like, you absolutely know that 00:14:52.400 --> 00:14:56.649 you have no say versus the other end of the spectrum where you it's, like, 00:14:56.650 --> 00:14:58.980 almost anarchy, like, you can kind of do whatever you want, like, you have 00:14:58.980 --> 00:14:59.830 all the say, I don't know, whatever. 00:15:00.245 --> 00:15:03.464 But there's a middle ground like the middle ground is always weird where it's 00:15:03.464 --> 00:15:07.125 like you feel like you have a say but then You don't end up actually having one 00:15:07.125 --> 00:15:10.974 and now you're just confused my I'm not saying that's exactly where we're at I'm 00:15:10.974 --> 00:15:16.214 just saying that I feel like most of the time people would rather be told exactly 00:15:16.324 --> 00:15:18.489 What the rules are rather than the rules? 00:15:18.670 --> 00:15:20.890 being so obfuscated and gray. 00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:22.440 And again, it's a difficult thing. 00:15:22.440 --> 00:15:23.580 I'm not saying these are easy problems. 00:15:23.580 --> 00:15:26.100 I'm just kind of giving you my perspective on it because I'm trying 00:15:26.100 --> 00:15:29.730 to be a little bit of the mouthpiece for the things that I hear and see 00:15:29.730 --> 00:15:32.590 and all that sort of stuff, just from the people that I associate with. 00:15:32.600 --> 00:15:37.240 So, that's kind of always what I've felt really for like the last like year 00:15:37.300 --> 00:15:41.240 and a half just like trying to feel everything out is, uh, it's really big. 00:15:41.240 --> 00:15:43.670 And I don't know if there's a way around those types of things but 00:15:43.670 --> 00:15:45.790 that's, that's kind of how I feel like. 00:15:46.985 --> 00:15:52.065 A vast majority of people that are kind of in it feel like in it to the extent 00:15:52.065 --> 00:15:54.785 that they care about the stuff that you make stuff that I make, you know? 00:15:55.115 --> 00:16:00.475 Matt: Yeah, I can certainly sympathize with, you know, folks that want more 00:16:00.475 --> 00:16:03.214 clear cut, you know, guidelines and rules. 00:16:03.245 --> 00:16:06.985 I think that's something that WordPress, the community has always been seeking. 00:16:07.545 --> 00:16:10.145 Um, where are those upper limitations? 00:16:10.705 --> 00:16:12.035 Who's really doing what? 00:16:12.385 --> 00:16:18.150 Um, You know, marketing team, what kind of access do you probably, you know, 00:16:18.150 --> 00:16:22.219 that you, can you have, uh, what kind of access do you have, what kind of 00:16:22.230 --> 00:16:29.059 access actually makes sense from, um, I know this is so hard to say it this 00:16:29.059 --> 00:16:32.000 day and age with what we've, uh, you know, uncovered with, with Matt and. 00:16:32.000 --> 00:16:35.569 org and stuff like that, but what kind of continuity, like, you know, 00:16:35.569 --> 00:16:39.290 I think any, we've talked about this before, like any volunteer marketing 00:16:39.290 --> 00:16:41.670 team, like, can you really get, Yeah. 00:16:42.460 --> 00:16:47.620 Pure Google Analytics access to an enterprise as big as org. 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:51.080 I know, given what we've come up with, but just hear me out. 00:16:51.869 --> 00:16:58.259 Uh, you know, any, if it was, I don't know, I can't think of another, like, non 00:16:58.260 --> 00:17:01.370 profit off the top of my head that would, that this would roll with, but like if, 00:17:01.830 --> 00:17:07.040 if there was a big non profit in your local town, you know, millions of dollars 00:17:07.040 --> 00:17:10.424 worth, and You were all just volunteers. 00:17:10.584 --> 00:17:15.424 Would you expect to get, like, access to Google Analytics and the data 00:17:15.454 --> 00:17:17.644 behind this stuff as just a volunteer? 00:17:17.904 --> 00:17:20.084 Probably not, right? 00:17:20.104 --> 00:17:22.124 Like, it's probably not going to get that access. 00:17:22.474 --> 00:17:25.824 So there's like these up, these limitations that we, that we run into. 00:17:25.825 --> 00:17:29.674 Um, and I know that's super challenging. 00:17:29.884 --> 00:17:35.929 Um, but I also look at it as, you know, We have an opportunity 00:17:35.929 --> 00:17:38.919 to have some say in this stuff. 00:17:38.929 --> 00:17:41.059 And maybe that's not good enough, you know, for people. 00:17:41.059 --> 00:17:43.350 I think people look at WordPress as something that 00:17:43.350 --> 00:17:45.189 is so vital to the open web. 00:17:46.229 --> 00:17:46.749 I agree. 00:17:47.359 --> 00:17:50.110 It's so vital to the open web that people should have it. 00:17:50.619 --> 00:17:53.519 But I don't think, I don't think that's a reality. 00:17:53.939 --> 00:17:55.029 Like, I don't think that's a reality. 00:17:55.209 --> 00:17:58.069 We, it's not a utility, WordPress. 00:17:58.689 --> 00:17:58.909 Right? 00:17:58.919 --> 00:17:59.789 It's not water. 00:18:00.659 --> 00:18:01.029 Okay? 00:18:01.169 --> 00:18:03.149 Like, we, we can't, we can't have that. 00:18:03.459 --> 00:18:07.419 And, and, you know, I think that's the, I think all these questions that 00:18:07.419 --> 00:18:13.029 you have, and I still have, are really being pushed, uh, or, or pressed 00:18:13.029 --> 00:18:16.079 right now because of, of what we, and we've never seen anything like this. 00:18:16.919 --> 00:18:19.769 Um, you know, and this is really pushing the boundaries of, of 00:18:19.769 --> 00:18:20.869 Open Source and what it means. 00:18:22.479 --> 00:18:27.074 Mark: Yeah, I mean, I, I don't know, I think that if A question 00:18:27.074 --> 00:18:30.084 was posed to like, you know, again, just Matt as the figurehead. 00:18:30.894 --> 00:18:35.594 It's like every time that I've, but I would have to, I'd have to go back. 00:18:35.594 --> 00:18:38.654 I'd have to know again, like 10 years ago, what, what the vibe was like, what 00:18:38.654 --> 00:18:42.594 the answers were like when anytime like he or anybody was asked a question, 00:18:42.594 --> 00:18:47.394 it's just like, I feel like it's always like, Hey, we want, somebody says, or a 00:18:47.394 --> 00:18:52.494 group of people say, we want X, Y, Z in Gutenberg or in WordPress is the answer. 00:18:53.860 --> 00:18:55.289 Yeah, that's a really good idea. 00:18:55.299 --> 00:19:02.009 Or is it more like, yeah, like, well, like, I just feel like if, if I feel 00:19:02.009 --> 00:19:06.809 like every time I've heard Like, again, just Matt, as an example, speak, it's 00:19:06.809 --> 00:19:08.969 like kind of, it's not really answers. 00:19:08.969 --> 00:19:10.989 It's again, like, again, maybe big founder, kind of like 00:19:10.989 --> 00:19:12.559 political speak almost in a way. 00:19:12.569 --> 00:19:16.009 And I just feel like that is something that people have just really just across 00:19:16.019 --> 00:19:19.509 society have just learned to just snuff out and just like, this is bullshit. 00:19:19.529 --> 00:19:22.049 Like I'm tired of hearing, like, maybe we will, maybe we won't 00:19:22.059 --> 00:19:23.209 like this middle ground thing. 00:19:23.419 --> 00:19:25.909 It's more, if somebody asked me that question to be like, 00:19:26.229 --> 00:19:28.399 yeah, there's like a pretty low likelihood we're going to do that. 00:19:28.449 --> 00:19:29.889 And then it's some, in some ways. 00:19:30.050 --> 00:19:33.389 You might be pissed at that answer, but you might respect it a little bit more 00:19:33.409 --> 00:19:36.570 because it's like, okay, well, at least he told me like how he actually feels. 00:19:36.769 --> 00:19:37.800 Again, I'm not criticizing Matt. 00:19:37.800 --> 00:19:38.019 I don't know. 00:19:38.019 --> 00:19:40.939 I'm not saying he ever like he's doing that specifically, but 00:19:40.939 --> 00:19:46.279 I, I'm just saying like from everything that I've not just him. 00:19:46.289 --> 00:19:48.080 It's just, it seems like kind of more like that. 00:19:48.090 --> 00:19:49.139 It's like we have a direction. 00:19:49.139 --> 00:19:50.620 We know what the direction is. 00:19:50.830 --> 00:19:53.060 You know, again, like we talked about the blogging, the publishing, like 00:19:53.070 --> 00:19:55.620 those are valid things, but then other people have different thoughts 00:19:55.620 --> 00:19:57.179 on where the platform should go. 00:19:57.635 --> 00:20:01.554 But at the same time are not specifically empowered to make those decisions, but 00:20:02.405 --> 00:20:06.094 people are, you know, I feel like there is a fair amount of people that actually 00:20:06.094 --> 00:20:08.844 agree with those sentiments and then it's now you get in this point where 00:20:08.844 --> 00:20:15.524 like you have this this like conflicting like the brand and the people that back 00:20:15.524 --> 00:20:19.194 and have power versus like all the The lay people, so to speak, or whatever, 00:20:19.194 --> 00:20:21.304 just the users that have opinions. 00:20:21.304 --> 00:20:23.034 And it's just like, now, where are we at? 00:20:23.044 --> 00:20:24.904 It's like, are we, are we listening to our users? 00:20:24.904 --> 00:20:25.984 Are we not listening to you guys? 00:20:25.984 --> 00:20:27.364 I mean, that's a whole nother conversation. 00:20:27.364 --> 00:20:29.614 Do we think that WordPress is listening to the users or not? 00:20:29.615 --> 00:20:33.134 Largely we've had this conversation many times. 00:20:33.134 --> 00:20:35.724 I think there's a lot of inactive voices in the WordPress community 00:20:35.724 --> 00:20:38.024 that we don't even really know what they want because they're just, you 00:20:38.084 --> 00:20:39.774 know, they're doing other things, so that's a whole different thing. 00:20:40.104 --> 00:20:42.804 But I mean, if we could go back just to like the very beginning of. 00:20:43.399 --> 00:20:45.289 Because that's a lot of good context around open source. 00:20:45.299 --> 00:20:49.149 The thing I would say is like, Do you believe that the word open source, 00:20:49.189 --> 00:20:56.429 when you hear it in the wild, is often like, I, Over, when I said overused and 00:20:56.659 --> 00:21:01.359 misinterpreted, I meant because so many people like, use it as kind of a buzzword, 00:21:01.379 --> 00:21:05.909 it's a real word, it means something, but I just feel like people are attaching more 00:21:05.909 --> 00:21:07.629 things to it than what it actually means. 00:21:08.699 --> 00:21:13.944 Particularly in the context of WordPress, because Really, I was going to tweet this 00:21:13.944 --> 00:21:16.144 out too and we could have a discussion about it here because it's pertinent. 00:21:16.914 --> 00:21:20.134 I was going to tweet something out like, you know, we were having a chat, I think 00:21:20.134 --> 00:21:23.164 there's a thread in the WP Minutes Slack, and I was thinking in my mind, the thing 00:21:23.164 --> 00:21:26.164 that was coming to my mind as I was putting all those pieces together, is 00:21:26.164 --> 00:21:30.814 the revelation that there's WordPress, like the brand of WordPress that really 00:21:30.814 --> 00:21:35.004 everyone knows, like that's the real value of the name and like what the platform is. 00:21:35.244 --> 00:21:36.734 And then there's all the code, certainly. 00:21:37.294 --> 00:21:38.425 But those are two different things. 00:21:38.465 --> 00:21:40.955 It's like the code is open source. 00:21:40.955 --> 00:21:42.574 Like you could take WordPress and go do it. 00:21:42.574 --> 00:21:45.014 But the brand it's in you, but you have to rename it, right? 00:21:45.014 --> 00:21:46.094 Like you wouldn't be able to just keep it. 00:21:46.304 --> 00:21:48.264 The brand itself is where the value is. 00:21:48.554 --> 00:21:51.695 And Matt Mullenweg, unless I'm getting something wrong, like 00:21:51.774 --> 00:21:53.885 owns that and controls that brand. 00:21:53.894 --> 00:21:58.645 So like, that's where the actual value is mostly like, obviously the code 00:21:58.645 --> 00:22:00.225 is valuable, like I'm not trying to. 00:22:00.245 --> 00:22:03.375 the contribution of all the people making this, making the code. 00:22:03.685 --> 00:22:06.455 But I'm saying that those are two very different things. 00:22:06.804 --> 00:22:09.524 And we are now in this, I feel like we're in this weird spot where people 00:22:09.524 --> 00:22:12.444 are saying open source and they're attaching these, these weird like 00:22:12.455 --> 00:22:16.064 brand attributes to it and whatever they're making, you know, like whatever 00:22:16.064 --> 00:22:17.914 the, the conclusions are drawing. 00:22:17.935 --> 00:22:19.844 And that's just not, that's not a one to one. 00:22:19.915 --> 00:22:23.524 It's like, yeah, the code's open source, but it's Matt Mullenwig's thing. 00:22:24.245 --> 00:22:25.604 And I just feel like that's not. 00:22:26.974 --> 00:22:27.974 I'm not even saying that's wrong. 00:22:27.984 --> 00:22:31.804 I'm just saying, like, I like, again, I like the clear vision of 00:22:31.804 --> 00:22:34.204 what's going on, and I don't, I just don't see it all the time, so. 00:22:34.524 --> 00:22:37.614 Matt: Yeah, I mean, again, there's so many variables here, but they're 00:22:37.864 --> 00:22:42.415 certainly, like, Matt's vision of what that means to to be a WordPress 00:22:42.415 --> 00:22:47.064 contributor, not only just like where the project goes and like how he divvies 00:22:47.564 --> 00:22:52.495 up like dot org and dot com initiatives or automatic initiatives, like how he 00:22:52.514 --> 00:22:56.594 sees contributions, there's him, there's like figureheads in the in the community. 00:22:56.594 --> 00:22:59.465 There's a lot of stuff like this isn't this is not easy. 00:23:00.024 --> 00:23:04.804 Yeah, but but I think I think maybe your biggest like just 00:23:04.814 --> 00:23:06.225 hearing you like play this out. 00:23:07.129 --> 00:23:10.469 So, I'll answer your question with a question before I get to it, but I think 00:23:10.469 --> 00:23:16.449 your, your biggest issue is that people are thinking they have more of a say in 00:23:16.449 --> 00:23:18.999 this project, in the direction it's going. 00:23:19.279 --> 00:23:23.309 Is that really the biggest challenge you see out there when people are 00:23:23.549 --> 00:23:25.709 maybe misconstruing open source? 00:23:25.729 --> 00:23:27.729 It's that they just think that they have more ownership 00:23:27.729 --> 00:23:28.749 in this than they really do? 00:23:30.809 --> 00:23:32.799 Mark: I think that's part of it. 00:23:32.819 --> 00:23:33.949 Is that the biggest? 00:23:34.489 --> 00:23:35.149 Mm. 00:23:35.829 --> 00:23:36.669 It's probably pretty, I see it as 00:23:36.669 --> 00:23:39.206 Matt: the big, I see it as the biggest issue, but I don't know how you say it. 00:23:39.206 --> 00:23:39.206 It's 00:23:39.211 --> 00:23:41.319 Mark: probably, it's probably pretty big. 00:23:41.709 --> 00:23:41.889 Yeah. 00:23:41.919 --> 00:23:46.959 But it, but that particular part of it only impacts the 00:23:46.959 --> 00:23:49.029 people that you and I speak to. 00:23:50.079 --> 00:23:55.064 Like, it only impacts, uh, you know, it only impacts this 10,000, you know. 00:23:55.774 --> 00:23:58.144 English speaking and obviously abroad people that like actually 00:23:58.144 --> 00:23:58.834 care, you know what I mean? 00:23:58.834 --> 00:24:01.054 Like that, that, that number that we've kind of like, you know, 00:24:01.054 --> 00:24:04.154 talked about before I feel like, because everyone else like probably 00:24:04.154 --> 00:24:05.594 wouldn't necessarily care about that. 00:24:05.924 --> 00:24:08.774 The other thing that's like interesting though, is that secondary part where 00:24:08.784 --> 00:24:12.894 people talk about WordPress, like it is literally a project that's for 00:24:12.894 --> 00:24:17.444 everyone by everyone almost, but really the brand I still think seemingly 00:24:17.854 --> 00:24:20.584 belongs to Matt Mullenweg, which again, I'm all for people doing their 00:24:20.584 --> 00:24:21.534 own thing, having their own thing. 00:24:21.544 --> 00:24:22.034 I love that. 00:24:22.044 --> 00:24:23.714 Like, I think you should be able to have your own thing. 00:24:24.129 --> 00:24:27.520 But I'm saying that I think that just throughout the years, again, maybe not 00:24:27.520 --> 00:24:30.290 even intentionally, it has gotten to the point where everyone feels like, 00:24:30.300 --> 00:24:33.250 this is like huge, hugely crazy, too. 00:24:33.280 --> 00:24:35.060 Because it's 20 years in the making. 00:24:35.070 --> 00:24:37.909 Like, we've, I don't think in history, you know what I mean? 00:24:37.909 --> 00:24:42.229 Like, it's, this is kind of a phenomenon where there's so many People that, again, 00:24:42.229 --> 00:24:47.269 I say this all the time, that feel very attached to this platform and they feel 00:24:47.269 --> 00:24:50.389 like maybe they didn't build it, but they've been around for a long time. 00:24:50.389 --> 00:24:52.600 They want to see it continue to prosper and stuff. 00:24:52.989 --> 00:24:56.079 And then everything we've seen now is just kind of weird. 00:24:56.090 --> 00:24:58.360 It's thrown a little monkey wrench in there and it's like, ah, I didn't, 00:24:58.379 --> 00:24:59.399 I didn't know it was like this. 00:24:59.399 --> 00:25:02.159 I didn't realize that, you know, Matt had full control or whatever 00:25:02.169 --> 00:25:04.840 that, you know, whatever the, whatever the thing is, it's just. 00:25:05.975 --> 00:25:09.764 So I think that a lot of people do feel like they have more of a say, and 00:25:09.764 --> 00:25:16.664 then I feel as well, as a little bit of a sidebar to that, that there's only 00:25:16.665 --> 00:25:20.274 certain ways that you can absolutely contribute to, which we've had this 00:25:20.274 --> 00:25:27.185 conversation ad nauseum, but, um, you know, I still think that there's extreme 00:25:27.195 --> 00:25:34.235 value in educating and providing thought leadership outside of a GitHub repo. 00:25:34.540 --> 00:25:40.550 But I've never really felt like that's actually fully, uh, 00:25:40.570 --> 00:25:43.500 appreciated necessarily to nth degree. 00:25:43.510 --> 00:25:46.560 It's tried, definitely not trying to make a complete blanket statement there, 00:25:46.939 --> 00:25:51.139 but yeah, that's, that's kind of what I would, it's definitely a big challenge. 00:25:51.149 --> 00:25:57.270 And I think a lot of people are becoming tired of it, I feel like in a way. 00:25:58.200 --> 00:26:00.970 Matt: So, I mean, there's probably is, you'd have to go back to like 00:26:00.979 --> 00:26:03.770 Linux, Linux kernel, uh, and. 00:26:05.024 --> 00:26:10.284 Probably, roughly the same amount of time ago when WordPress was really blowing up. 00:26:10.284 --> 00:26:12.485 Like, there was a lot of debate, and probably still is. 00:26:12.485 --> 00:26:14.694 I just don't follow it anymore by any stretch of the imagination. 00:26:14.694 --> 00:26:20.715 But, the Linux kernel and that open source and, uh, Who has control over that? 00:26:20.715 --> 00:26:25.945 I mean, that was hugely debated way back, uh, you know, in the day. 00:26:25.945 --> 00:26:30.125 So, there are projects, probably Linux is the only other project at scale 00:26:30.405 --> 00:26:33.605 that you would actually even hear about the challenges of open source. 00:26:34.035 --> 00:26:38.105 Everything else is probably a lot smaller, Drupal being the next and, 00:26:38.135 --> 00:26:40.675 you know, it's just a human thing. 00:26:41.195 --> 00:26:43.945 And people not, you know, getting along or, you know, seeing eye 00:26:43.955 --> 00:26:47.334 to eye and wanting the vision and ownership, yada, yada, yada. 00:26:47.335 --> 00:26:53.120 Um, Ruby on Rails with, uh, DHH and his, his framework, uh, it's 00:26:53.120 --> 00:26:54.490 just a much smaller footprint. 00:26:54.500 --> 00:26:58.449 Plus, WordPress is unique because you have just such, at least in my view, 00:26:58.449 --> 00:27:00.659 there's such a, uh, mix of people. 00:27:01.030 --> 00:27:05.330 You know, hardcore developers, uh, marketing and content people like you 00:27:05.330 --> 00:27:11.000 and, and me, uh, end users, business owners, investors, venture capital, 00:27:11.360 --> 00:27:16.129 um, you know, and then all the while, like, you, you, the enigma of Mullenweg 00:27:16.129 --> 00:27:17.600 and the control over all of this stuff. 00:27:18.059 --> 00:27:19.459 There's just so much more. 00:27:19.759 --> 00:27:21.459 Um, and plus it's massive. 00:27:21.669 --> 00:27:24.679 So you have like this perfect storm of like this massive thing. 00:27:25.459 --> 00:27:27.729 Empowering a chunk of the internet for over 20 years. 00:27:28.009 --> 00:27:30.899 All these different kinds of people with different goals and ambitions. 00:27:31.159 --> 00:27:32.529 So it just gets amplified. 00:27:32.809 --> 00:27:34.780 You know, much more than any other open source project. 00:27:34.819 --> 00:27:36.979 That's just me sort of framing. 00:27:37.059 --> 00:27:38.989 Yeah, there's probably the same stuff happening. 00:27:39.179 --> 00:27:43.309 Just at lesser degrees in other worlds of open source. 00:27:44.129 --> 00:27:45.370 AI being one of them. 00:27:45.370 --> 00:27:46.680 I mean, we see this with DeepSeek. 00:27:47.050 --> 00:27:49.060 Um, allegedly it's open source. 00:27:49.100 --> 00:27:50.010 It's open source. 00:27:50.310 --> 00:27:51.270 Um, we don't know. 00:27:51.440 --> 00:27:54.350 But, you know, HuggingFace is a massive open source community 00:27:54.639 --> 00:27:56.680 for all AI technologies. 00:27:56.999 --> 00:28:00.189 Um, there's just a million technologies on HuggingFace versus 00:28:00.350 --> 00:28:02.910 one WordPress, um, at that size. 00:28:02.920 --> 00:28:04.340 So, I mean, we see it. 00:28:04.680 --> 00:28:06.550 You just don't see it like you see it in WordPress. 00:28:07.040 --> 00:28:07.950 Um, plus I think, 00:28:09.970 --> 00:28:15.694 I want to say, Again, I'm rarely a half glass full kind of guy, but I think 00:28:15.704 --> 00:28:23.924 like there was a lot of, um, structure built, loose structure built to have 00:28:26.554 --> 00:28:31.995 the democratic, uh, apparatus of WordPress, right? 00:28:32.884 --> 00:28:34.954 For better or for much more for worse, right? 00:28:35.104 --> 00:28:38.324 So it was kind of built. 00:28:39.249 --> 00:28:42.840 But it didn't really, you know, it was, it was kind of built like to have 00:28:42.840 --> 00:28:48.260 this democratic apparatus behind it, but you know, for years before all of 00:28:48.260 --> 00:28:50.839 this stuff, we were kind of like, all right, we all know Matt pulls the, pulls 00:28:50.840 --> 00:28:52.649 the strings behind, behind the scene. 00:28:53.139 --> 00:28:58.270 Um, so I don't know, it was kind of good that that was there, but also kind of 00:28:58.280 --> 00:29:02.479 bad because it, it led us, it led a whole bunch of people down this direction that 00:29:02.870 --> 00:29:08.030 they thought they had this ownership and this say, uh, but they truly didn't. 00:29:08.534 --> 00:29:08.844 Right? 00:29:09.274 --> 00:29:13.684 On one hand, I'm like, it's kind of cool that it was there, but on the other hand, 00:29:13.684 --> 00:29:15.964 it's like, eh, it was a lot of false hope. 00:29:16.194 --> 00:29:17.104 So I totally get it. 00:29:17.414 --> 00:29:20.174 Um, you know, I get your point of view on that stuff. 00:29:20.934 --> 00:29:22.154 Are you saying that exists though? 00:29:22.824 --> 00:29:23.094 Mark: Say it again. 00:29:23.094 --> 00:29:24.664 You're saying, you're saying you agree with that though? 00:29:24.704 --> 00:29:28.344 Like you, you, that's your estimation that that did, that is the case? 00:29:28.404 --> 00:29:29.344 You've been here longer than me. 00:29:29.354 --> 00:29:29.914 Again, I'm 00:29:30.824 --> 00:29:31.304 Matt: relatively new. 00:29:31.354 --> 00:29:35.554 You know, you have, I mean, look at, you had meetups, you had word camps, 00:29:35.794 --> 00:29:40.555 you had, um, You know, the, the bigger milestone WordCamps like US, 00:29:40.575 --> 00:29:46.045 uh, before WordCamp Europe and Asia, like this stuff all evolved over time. 00:29:46.715 --> 00:29:50.375 And there was like this inertia that we were all there, man, like we're all there. 00:29:50.375 --> 00:29:51.165 We're all building this. 00:29:51.165 --> 00:29:52.275 This is all us, right? 00:29:52.665 --> 00:29:55.885 You know, and then you'd have, uh, contributor days. 00:29:56.295 --> 00:30:00.225 Uh, you get there early, you write some documentation, like you're feeling like 00:30:00.225 --> 00:30:03.035 you're a part of this thing and you are and you're making a difference. 00:30:03.035 --> 00:30:07.175 Believe me, it's like, yeah, certainly it made WordPress what it was. 00:30:07.815 --> 00:30:11.255 But you just never really had that full control. 00:30:12.725 --> 00:30:13.935 Um, but you had teams. 00:30:13.965 --> 00:30:14.965 Again, marketing team. 00:30:15.035 --> 00:30:15.665 Media core. 00:30:15.705 --> 00:30:17.435 Don't even know what the hell is going on with that anymore. 00:30:17.665 --> 00:30:17.885 Right? 00:30:17.885 --> 00:30:18.575 You have Slack. 00:30:18.585 --> 00:30:21.315 You have, you know, all these things where you can, you can jump 00:30:21.315 --> 00:30:23.165 in and be a part of this stuff. 00:30:23.505 --> 00:30:26.165 So that's like that apparatus part where you kind of feel 00:30:26.165 --> 00:30:27.125 like there's something there. 00:30:27.345 --> 00:30:27.585 Right? 00:30:27.585 --> 00:30:31.455 Like your local town or city has a parks board. 00:30:31.485 --> 00:30:36.180 Uh, uh, you know, um, Uh, historic commission board, like you have all these 00:30:36.180 --> 00:30:39.600 boards, and it's just like, oh, people can, you know, apply and be on these 00:30:39.600 --> 00:30:42.350 boards, and you're like, oh, we're all a part of this thing, we're all, you know, 00:30:42.360 --> 00:30:45.860 making this thing move forward, and you kind of had that semblance in WordPress, 00:30:45.860 --> 00:30:50.350 it's still there, I don't know how, you know, for much longer, but, um, it was 00:30:50.350 --> 00:30:53.870 sort of that feeling, like we're all doing this thing together, right, and 00:30:53.870 --> 00:30:59.120 that's that, what I'll call that false democratic hope, you know, that you 00:30:59.430 --> 00:31:04.720 all had a say, and you did have a say, but certainly, The big direction of the 00:31:04.720 --> 00:31:09.860 project, of course, now with dot org dot com, like we all know, like we never 00:31:09.860 --> 00:31:11.460 really had that control in the foundation. 00:31:11.860 --> 00:31:15.510 Um, but I think that we're all led to believe it. 00:31:16.400 --> 00:31:19.650 Not even intentionally, not even intentionally. 00:31:19.650 --> 00:31:22.970 There was like a hope that it was going to be like this democratic. 00:31:22.970 --> 00:31:23.800 Well, I think it's 00:31:23.890 --> 00:31:24.120 Mark: great. 00:31:24.500 --> 00:31:28.924 I think it also probably wasn't here, but I feel like Who started WordPress 00:31:28.925 --> 00:31:32.555 meetups, you know, I mean like just as an example, like it probably just 00:31:32.555 --> 00:31:37.335 kind of happened serendipitously because You know people saw this thing. 00:31:37.345 --> 00:31:38.245 It was free. 00:31:38.255 --> 00:31:39.645 You could get into it easily. 00:31:39.675 --> 00:31:44.745 It was powerful I'm sure Matt probably encouraged it heavily at a certain 00:31:44.745 --> 00:31:47.695 point like when he saw his hat I mean I could put myself kind of in that 00:31:47.805 --> 00:31:50.795 shoes I don't know exactly what he's feeling but like you build this thing 00:31:51.425 --> 00:31:55.755 People are adopting it like crazy Unbelievable timing, you know what I mean? 00:31:55.765 --> 00:31:58.945 Like all these, all these variables together And now you see all these people 00:31:58.945 --> 00:32:02.505 popping up And they're like, you know, I, I, I try to empathize as much as 00:32:02.505 --> 00:32:05.925 possible If I was a founder of something like this, like, you know I got people 00:32:05.925 --> 00:32:09.615 that are making meetups about my shit And like, you know, like, they wanna 00:32:09.615 --> 00:32:13.065 do conferences, they wanna do all this stuff I'm sure he didn't like, envision 00:32:13.065 --> 00:32:15.385 all that, maybe he did But I, I, I don't think he like, you know, I don't 00:32:15.385 --> 00:32:17.945 think he was like Had a premonition of like all this stuff happening, right? 00:32:18.145 --> 00:32:23.110 So it's like, I can totally get that Uh, and I just feel like You know, 00:32:23.110 --> 00:32:26.400 it's a little bit of Monday morning quarterbacking type thing, but at the 00:32:26.400 --> 00:32:30.250 same time, it's like, I look at these things and I think how, if I was going 00:32:30.250 --> 00:32:34.290 to do something, any, anywhere, like even a micro amount of this scale, 00:32:34.290 --> 00:32:35.650 what would I like try to remember? 00:32:35.650 --> 00:32:43.540 And it's like, how do you keep the people's understanding of what is going 00:32:43.540 --> 00:32:47.450 on, like in check and in alignment with what you actually kind of want? 00:32:47.470 --> 00:32:50.370 And maybe his, as an example, him and whoever else like kind 00:32:50.370 --> 00:32:51.560 of changed along the way as well. 00:32:51.970 --> 00:32:52.240 But. 00:32:53.440 --> 00:32:53.800 I don't know. 00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:57.750 I'm looking at all this and I'm thinking, was, is there a way if we could replay 00:32:57.750 --> 00:33:00.860 it or just like, you know, like no for the next like WordPress thing 00:33:00.860 --> 00:33:03.230 that we, that we build or whatever, not, I'm not saying an alternative 00:33:03.230 --> 00:33:05.980 WordPress, but the next type of thing, like what will we do differently? 00:33:05.980 --> 00:33:08.400 I just think these exercises are important and educational. 00:33:08.600 --> 00:33:12.510 Like, would we focus on making sure that we're monetizing the 00:33:12.510 --> 00:33:15.920 backbone, like heavily, like heavily monetizing the backbone of the thing 00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:18.960 that's free and open source so we don't like get like to a point. 00:33:19.260 --> 00:33:21.960 I'm not saying it is, but it seems like that's partially it, right? 00:33:21.960 --> 00:33:25.340 We've talked about this many times where some, at some point you got to make money. 00:33:25.340 --> 00:33:26.110 It's just how it is. 00:33:26.490 --> 00:33:27.870 And I know that Automatic does make money. 00:33:27.870 --> 00:33:31.450 I'm just saying that like, the thing that you're giving away for free and 00:33:31.450 --> 00:33:35.470 is extremely valuable, you do have to somehow monetize some aspect of that 00:33:35.480 --> 00:33:39.660 to make sure that the people that are using that don't go out of business. 00:33:39.660 --> 00:33:43.850 Or like, the platform doesn't lose, you know, adoption, right? 00:33:43.850 --> 00:33:44.620 You know, stuff like that. 00:33:45.560 --> 00:33:48.800 Uh, I don't know, I just try to think about all that, and, um, 00:33:49.030 --> 00:33:52.410 I'm not saying it's easy, and, uh, but we're in a weird spot now. 00:33:52.780 --> 00:33:56.860 Matt: I also think, like, there's open source, like, things can be open source, 00:33:56.990 --> 00:34:01.720 and I think we're gonna see this really get pushed because of AI, uh, coming up, 00:34:01.750 --> 00:34:07.290 is, like, if I'm starting to build little software solutions, and by the way, open 00:34:07.290 --> 00:34:12.680 source doesn't always have to be, like, software, um, If I'm starting to build 00:34:12.680 --> 00:34:17.120 out these little software solutions and I want to open source it, it's this tiny 00:34:17.120 --> 00:34:21.440 little thing that does one like, just like plugins, any kind of tiny little plugin 00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:23.150 that's uploaded to to wordpress.org. 00:34:23.390 --> 00:34:27.260 Your favorite, most basic WordPress plugin that does this cool little utility thing 00:34:27.260 --> 00:34:31.940 that you can't live without is open source and it doesn't need to be maintained. 00:34:32.550 --> 00:34:37.440 By a thousand people and have the meetings in this apparatus that we've 00:34:37.440 --> 00:34:40.570 had with WordPress because it just doesn't need it does not require it. 00:34:40.930 --> 00:34:48.210 So, I think looking at open source and what I, what I don't want to do, 00:34:48.470 --> 00:34:49.600 here's what I'm trying to get at. 00:34:49.620 --> 00:34:56.340 What I don't want to do is to beat up on open source as a bad thing because 00:34:56.340 --> 00:34:58.200 of what has happened in WordPress. 00:34:59.870 --> 00:35:00.110 Right? 00:35:00.170 --> 00:35:01.480 Because I I I I I'm with ya. 00:35:01.550 --> 00:35:01.880 Yeah. 00:35:01.990 --> 00:35:02.680 It's just the same thing. 00:35:02.680 --> 00:35:05.140 Like, I have the debate with like, Kevin and others. 00:35:05.160 --> 00:35:10.435 Not just Kevin, but like Don't let, you know, don't let video take over podcasting 00:35:10.445 --> 00:35:16.215 because then we start to push out, like, the essence of free and open publishing. 00:35:16.365 --> 00:35:16.655 Right? 00:35:16.935 --> 00:35:18.555 So I say the same thing about, like, open source. 00:35:18.595 --> 00:35:21.975 And I'm not this crazy open, like, I'm not running, I mean, we've 00:35:22.025 --> 00:35:24.715 talked about it, I'm not running, like, Graphene OS on my phone. 00:35:24.955 --> 00:35:29.805 I'm not using a Linux, uh, uh, uh, computer like I used to back in the day. 00:35:29.945 --> 00:35:31.105 And by the way, neither is Matt. 00:35:31.380 --> 00:35:33.420 He's running iOS and he's talked about Matt Mullen way. 00:35:33.420 --> 00:35:34.170 He's talked about this. 00:35:34.470 --> 00:35:36.570 He's still using Apple, which is closed source. 00:35:36.570 --> 00:35:44.550 Like you can't just be like 100% consumed by it, but the idea of that just existing 00:35:44.880 --> 00:35:52.575 challenges, the status quo, deep seek, open source, challenged, open ai, um, 00:35:52.890 --> 00:35:58.020 WordPress challenges, any closed source CMS, and these things help balance. 00:35:58.290 --> 00:35:59.370 There's a balance there. 00:35:59.715 --> 00:36:04.425 Like the, the swing of the pendulum going side to side and sometimes it's 00:36:04.425 --> 00:36:06.895 really good for WordPress, sometimes it's really bad for WordPress. 00:36:07.355 --> 00:36:11.275 And I think the existence of this stuff challenges that status quo. 00:36:11.325 --> 00:36:14.255 And the one other thing I want to, I want to remark on is before 00:36:14.875 --> 00:36:18.195 I forget, is Keys to the Kingdom. 00:36:18.915 --> 00:36:19.445 Mark: Oh my god. 00:36:19.675 --> 00:36:26.675 Matt: There is, like, I think, you know, for everyone, Like, saying the, 00:36:26.935 --> 00:36:30.915 the, I know it's so hard to say these days, so don't come after me, but, you 00:36:30.915 --> 00:36:35.255 know, like for all of the criticism you want to give Mullenweg and WordPress, 00:36:35.635 --> 00:36:37.785 it still remains free and open source. 00:36:38.055 --> 00:36:44.514 You can still take it, walk down the street and charge somebody 10, 000 00:36:44.515 --> 00:36:48.905 to put a WordPress website together for you, 100, 000, you can still 00:36:48.925 --> 00:36:52.225 profit off of this open source thing. 00:36:53.045 --> 00:36:58.255 So as much as you want to criticize it and beat up, uh, you know, Mullenweg and 00:36:58.255 --> 00:37:00.245 the decisions, some of them rightfully so. 00:37:00.495 --> 00:37:04.635 And the challenges of this stuff, you could still take from WordPress. 00:37:04.685 --> 00:37:09.035 You can still run, have a career off of WordPress. 00:37:09.285 --> 00:37:14.225 So that's why I say you can still take from it, but don't beat up on it. 00:37:14.265 --> 00:37:18.815 You know, again, Pearson from your podcast episode makes absolutely no sense to me. 00:37:19.220 --> 00:37:23.230 You know, build, build off the back of WordPress and then just beat it up because 00:37:23.240 --> 00:37:27.140 you didn't get along with, with Mullenweg and, and some of the, uh, of the things. 00:37:27.150 --> 00:37:29.780 You can debate the technology and the process and all that, fine. 00:37:30.420 --> 00:37:35.190 But at the end of the day, like, the thing still allows you to survive. 00:37:35.250 --> 00:37:36.970 And that's, that's the thing for me. 00:37:37.450 --> 00:37:41.760 Um, you know, when I, when I hear these debates from, from folks who have made a 00:37:41.760 --> 00:37:44.070 ton of money off the back of WordPress. 00:37:46.150 --> 00:37:52.970 Mark: Yeah, I mean, I, I, I think that I would, when I hear you say beat up 00:37:52.980 --> 00:37:57.730 on WordPress, I would need to know. 00:37:58.165 --> 00:38:02.775 Like almost specifics on what you mean, like, what is your definition of beat up? 00:38:03.275 --> 00:38:06.505 Because I just, and maybe this is, maybe this is a weird thing that I 00:38:06.505 --> 00:38:11.005 and other people do, I just feel like Criticism is valid in a lot of ways 00:38:11.655 --> 00:38:13.025 Especially the way it's delivered. 00:38:13.045 --> 00:38:16.735 Like, I feel like a lot of times when I'm saying things I'm just like observing 00:38:16.985 --> 00:38:19.095 and I'm being like, hmm I'm asking, almost like asking a question, like I 00:38:19.095 --> 00:38:21.455 wonder why they did it like that or I think there might be a better way To 00:38:21.455 --> 00:38:26.455 do that and they're, people are free to not take Like that into consideration. 00:38:26.455 --> 00:38:27.425 Sure, it's not my thing. 00:38:27.425 --> 00:38:28.165 I don't, whatever. 00:38:28.665 --> 00:38:32.755 But, at the same time, I just feel like there's another angle of that. 00:38:32.755 --> 00:38:38.275 What you said there, where people are utilizing WordPress and they 00:38:38.305 --> 00:38:43.115 are charging somebody money for that and they're doing it in a sense 00:38:43.115 --> 00:38:46.225 of they, they feel like that's the best decision for their business. 00:38:46.465 --> 00:38:50.395 And then, you know, X, Y, Z happens, new update happens, whatever. 00:38:50.565 --> 00:38:53.755 And it like, it's just totally Kind of like against with it. 00:38:54.055 --> 00:38:54.355 I don't know. 00:38:54.365 --> 00:38:55.695 I, I don't know. 00:38:55.765 --> 00:38:59.155 I, and I mean, it kind of goes back to the yin and yang thing. 00:38:59.155 --> 00:39:02.175 I think you were talking about, like with like closed source versus open source 00:39:05.005 --> 00:39:08.945 and I'm really not a hundred percent like, like I'm, I'm feeling that, 00:39:08.955 --> 00:39:11.845 but I would need to think about that more because it feels like 00:39:11.855 --> 00:39:16.215 a lot of stuff is closed source. 00:39:16.670 --> 00:39:20.790 And there's not like, it feels like open source is kind of from my macro 00:39:20.790 --> 00:39:24.630 lens of just a couple of things that I watch, it seems like closed source is 00:39:24.640 --> 00:39:28.410 winning like a lot from what I've seen. 00:39:28.760 --> 00:39:35.630 Like if you, if you see like, like all of the, the um, website 00:39:35.630 --> 00:39:38.250 alternative things that I see, a lot of them are closed source. 00:39:38.320 --> 00:39:39.220 Well, I don't know. 00:39:39.250 --> 00:39:39.550 You'd have 00:39:39.550 --> 00:39:42.990 Matt: to define what winning means because WordPress still has a massive. 00:39:43.770 --> 00:39:47.180 Mark: I don't mean winning in like an absolute, I mean like winning as far 00:39:47.180 --> 00:39:51.750 as if you look at WordPress versus like these other ones, like, like just as 00:39:51.760 --> 00:39:54.380 like, like WordPress or the alternatives. 00:39:54.380 --> 00:39:57.720 And then you see the alternatives and a lot of them are like the Wix, Squarespace, 00:39:57.720 --> 00:39:59.110 Shopify, that type, Webflow type thing. 00:39:59.110 --> 00:40:04.360 So I, I just, this is, this is, again, I've talked about 00:40:04.360 --> 00:40:05.810 this, this is a societal thing. 00:40:05.820 --> 00:40:09.520 I feel like we're just like becoming way less like willing to have 00:40:09.520 --> 00:40:12.780 like open source and like you are a literal living testament to. 00:40:13.205 --> 00:40:15.425 You have to fight for it, pretty much. 00:40:15.665 --> 00:40:17.835 And I don't know if people really want to fight for it. 00:40:17.865 --> 00:40:21.555 I think that they just want to have the thing that they want. 00:40:21.895 --> 00:40:24.115 And I'll tell you this much, I'll tell you this much too, okay? 00:40:24.115 --> 00:40:26.985 Because this is a different angle of this whole, this whole conversation. 00:40:27.695 --> 00:40:28.605 But it's very relevant. 00:40:30.615 --> 00:40:32.135 Let me compare and contrast two things. 00:40:32.155 --> 00:40:35.915 When I want a new feature in WordPress, or when I think of, I have that conversation. 00:40:36.245 --> 00:40:38.505 I would have to go into github and make a ticket or whatever and 00:40:38.505 --> 00:40:39.655 I don't do that nearly enough. 00:40:39.655 --> 00:40:41.285 Maybe I guess as I'm supposed to or whatever. 00:40:41.285 --> 00:40:42.025 Okay, fine, fair. 00:40:42.025 --> 00:40:44.305 But I'm making like WordPress videos and all that sort of stuff. 00:40:44.995 --> 00:40:48.295 I use Sass products that are closed source, you know, just like 00:40:48.295 --> 00:40:49.215 the things that you use, right? 00:40:49.225 --> 00:40:50.895 StreamYard, Restream, like whatever, right? 00:40:51.720 --> 00:40:55.310 When I want something changed in those platforms, I either go to the feature 00:40:55.320 --> 00:40:59.750 request or I find the person that actually makes that change and I tell them and 00:40:59.750 --> 00:41:04.360 it's like normally pretty fast because I'm not like saying some weird niche thing. 00:41:04.530 --> 00:41:08.580 It's normally something like, Hey, this is kind of like a very normal 00:41:08.580 --> 00:41:10.660 feature that needs to be in here. 00:41:10.690 --> 00:41:12.880 And if you guys want to compete with these other people, like, I don't 00:41:12.880 --> 00:41:16.020 understand why you can't, why I can't move things around on my streaming, 00:41:16.310 --> 00:41:18.230 you know, set up like I, like I would. 00:41:18.420 --> 00:41:20.070 And I did that for restream and it worked. 00:41:20.460 --> 00:41:20.790 So. 00:41:22.090 --> 00:41:25.070 Maybe you're going to tell me just go throw it in GitHub, but I just feel like 00:41:25.070 --> 00:41:30.110 that is, that dichotomy there, at least in my personal experience, has been very 00:41:30.110 --> 00:41:33.470 different, I feel like, in one avenue. 00:41:33.770 --> 00:41:38.370 And again, it's not a dig at open source, I'm just wondering like, what are the 00:41:38.370 --> 00:41:43.130 inherent differences there, and then psychologically, societally, are we more, 00:41:44.600 --> 00:41:50.120 are we just becoming more of like a closed source capital money type system, where 00:41:50.210 --> 00:41:52.140 like, This, these people are paying us. 00:41:52.150 --> 00:41:54.890 We're going to listen to them from like the, from the brand perspective 00:41:54.900 --> 00:41:56.850 versus this is an open source project. 00:41:56.850 --> 00:41:58.110 We're going to do whatever the hell we want. 00:41:58.570 --> 00:42:01.660 Uh, we'll consider what you want, but ultimately we have our own things 00:42:01.670 --> 00:42:03.830 that we're trying to do here, that or that, whatever you have to find 00:42:03.830 --> 00:42:05.950 your own developer, basically that knows what they're doing to put 00:42:05.950 --> 00:42:07.180 these things in that type of stuff. 00:42:07.710 --> 00:42:08.900 I don't know, just a bunch of thoughts there. 00:42:08.920 --> 00:42:09.720 I know there's a lot, but 00:42:10.060 --> 00:42:12.100 Matt: yeah, I mean, I, I think that, you know, the challenge, 00:42:12.290 --> 00:42:14.460 yes, 100 percent you are correct. 00:42:14.710 --> 00:42:17.580 Uh, Probably the most phenomenal thing I've ever heard you say. 00:42:18.830 --> 00:42:19.060 Wow. 00:42:19.530 --> 00:42:20.150 That you have to fight. 00:42:20.150 --> 00:42:20.670 Clip it. 00:42:21.040 --> 00:42:21.260 Right? 00:42:21.270 --> 00:42:23.160 Like you have to fight for this open source thing. 00:42:23.160 --> 00:42:27.070 And that's why, this is why I don't, I don't give up on it. 00:42:27.210 --> 00:42:33.630 Because the more you push it away, Um, WordPress still has a long way to fall. 00:42:33.820 --> 00:42:34.280 Trust me. 00:42:34.920 --> 00:42:35.160 Yeah. 00:42:35.490 --> 00:42:35.850 But. 00:42:37.010 --> 00:42:41.640 We've never, you know, we've definitely seen some of these, these glacial moves 00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:44.940 over the last few months where you really start to feel threatened by it. 00:42:45.350 --> 00:42:46.590 Uh, but yes, you must fight. 00:42:46.610 --> 00:42:50.110 And I also believe that, to some degree, I know the haters are going to 00:42:50.110 --> 00:42:54.830 come out, that Matt is also thinking of, is fighting for it right now. 00:42:54.880 --> 00:42:57.730 Fighting for his business, Automatic, to stay relevant. 00:42:59.235 --> 00:43:02.965 Poor went out, if I wasn't in my office, poor went out for Brian Kord's, right? 00:43:04.805 --> 00:43:09.325 Fighting for his, his business to stay relevant, because he does see 00:43:09.325 --> 00:43:14.825 himself as, sees Automatic as the only champion for WordPress, whether 00:43:14.825 --> 00:43:15.875 you agree with that statement or not. 00:43:15.875 --> 00:43:18.935 I think that he believes Automatic is the only champion, and rightfully 00:43:18.935 --> 00:43:21.585 so, with the amount of hours that he's, and money that he's put into it. 00:43:22.075 --> 00:43:24.795 Um, and he does want to defend that. 00:43:24.835 --> 00:43:25.975 I too want to defend it. 00:43:26.295 --> 00:43:27.334 Not because I want it. 00:43:27.865 --> 00:43:30.525 Because I want to be able to tell WordPress what to do. 00:43:31.115 --> 00:43:31.945 I want to have a say. 00:43:31.995 --> 00:43:32.515 It's cool. 00:43:32.755 --> 00:43:35.135 But I also want it to survive because I think it's a great 00:43:35.685 --> 00:43:37.565 app that humans should want. 00:43:38.055 --> 00:43:41.055 Uh, you know, want from, uh, freedom of publishing. 00:43:41.435 --> 00:43:42.415 So, yes. 00:43:42.795 --> 00:43:43.275 Fight for it. 00:43:43.545 --> 00:43:44.205 For open source. 00:43:44.295 --> 00:43:45.145 Fight for open publishing. 00:43:45.235 --> 00:43:46.675 And the open web, technically. 00:43:47.265 --> 00:43:48.355 Um, so there's that. 00:43:48.885 --> 00:43:49.395 Um, 00:43:52.155 --> 00:43:56.715 You know, the, the, the other stuff about You know, contributing 00:43:56.715 --> 00:43:59.285 and giving back like, yeah, we have, it's an imperfect system. 00:43:59.885 --> 00:44:01.165 It's an imperfect system. 00:44:01.165 --> 00:44:05.375 How many times have you called up, you know, the paying corporate company, 00:44:05.755 --> 00:44:09.705 Xfinity, right, your cable provider, if you have that in your area, and you're 00:44:09.705 --> 00:44:11.605 like, I got a problem with my bill. 00:44:11.825 --> 00:44:13.095 Okay, let me push you over here. 00:44:13.935 --> 00:44:16.095 You talk to this next person, I got a problem with my bill. 00:44:16.595 --> 00:44:18.745 I was not in this department, let me push you over to this department. 00:44:18.755 --> 00:44:21.145 And you're just like, God damn, like, I just want to get this thing solved. 00:44:21.585 --> 00:44:21.795 Right? 00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:26.200 It's just an imperfect system that we have with WordPress, but a system nonetheless. 00:44:26.730 --> 00:44:30.340 Which also, you know, it contributes to its issues, right? 00:44:30.360 --> 00:44:31.610 Like, go put it in GitHub. 00:44:31.610 --> 00:44:33.129 I get it. 00:44:33.430 --> 00:44:37.810 Don't like it, but that's the system we have not saying it's perfect And yeah 00:44:37.810 --> 00:44:42.560 It takes one person from the from the github aisle to reach across to the normie 00:44:42.600 --> 00:44:44.690 aisle and say hey, what do you need? 00:44:45.370 --> 00:44:48.020 You know, but then sometimes you have to go into the github 00:44:48.020 --> 00:44:49.550 and go what is an issue? 00:44:49.820 --> 00:44:51.680 Okay, I'll draft it and create it. 00:44:51.680 --> 00:44:52.830 I'll provide screenshots. 00:44:52.860 --> 00:44:57.070 There's a little bit of give and take and that has certainly been an issue 00:44:57.070 --> 00:45:03.400 for WordPress, but also Again, as you watch the, the, the, the two camps 00:45:03.440 --> 00:45:07.070 collide, hardcore developers that get this stuff, average users who are 00:45:07.070 --> 00:45:12.040 trying to make a living with it, and, uh, it has caused, you know, it's 00:45:12.040 --> 00:45:15.070 caused this, this rift, um, over time. 00:45:15.440 --> 00:45:17.350 And it's, and again, it's, it's just not perfect. 00:45:17.750 --> 00:45:22.460 Um, yeah, and, and, and that's, and, and that's where, that's where we've, that's 00:45:22.460 --> 00:45:25.730 how we've come to this, to this pass, at least on, like, the communication side. 00:45:26.010 --> 00:45:28.710 Because I've always felt like no one's ever listened to me either. 00:45:29.950 --> 00:45:30.250 Right? 00:45:30.310 --> 00:45:32.640 Which is why I started a podcast to talk about this stuff. 00:45:32.650 --> 00:45:34.330 From like the business perspective. 00:45:34.840 --> 00:45:35.170 You know? 00:45:35.610 --> 00:45:39.960 And I think that um, yeah, a lot of folks don't feel heard. 00:45:40.240 --> 00:45:43.260 And can't make progress in this space. 00:45:44.360 --> 00:45:45.890 But at least the space exists. 00:45:47.165 --> 00:45:51.555 It doesn't, it makes sense in my head, you know, when I say it, it's 00:45:51.555 --> 00:45:53.075 like, we, we could have nothing. 00:45:53.455 --> 00:45:57.265 Um, and on the commercial side, like you say, like commercial side is winning. 00:45:57.935 --> 00:46:03.205 Um, yeah, I mean, maybe on like a feature set level, but you can, you 00:46:03.205 --> 00:46:09.085 would also say that Wix and Squarespace or Webflow are not as big as WordPress 00:46:09.115 --> 00:46:13.695 because not just because of the dollars, but because there aren't people behind 00:46:13.695 --> 00:46:15.175 that machine pushing it forward. 00:46:16.230 --> 00:46:19.420 So, it's like, it is a testament to the WordPress community that 00:46:19.430 --> 00:46:21.360 has pushed WordPress so far. 00:46:21.980 --> 00:46:26.720 Um, and it's adoption, because there are people who do care, who say, 00:46:26.940 --> 00:46:30.580 Nope, I'm gonna start a web agency, and I'm gonna advocate for WordPress. 00:46:30.800 --> 00:46:34.990 Whether or not they even think of it that way, Um, I think that that is something 00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:37.370 that has, has really helped WordPress. 00:46:37.780 --> 00:46:40.250 And, uh, that's something that Matt definitely lacks 00:46:40.260 --> 00:46:42.380 in seeing, because, you know. 00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:45.470 He's got his lane and he's seeing it from his perspective. 00:46:45.760 --> 00:46:49.840 He's forgetting that there are thousands of people who are like, Cool man, I'm not 00:46:49.840 --> 00:46:52.580 even, I don't even want to contribute, I just want to help this cool product. 00:46:53.590 --> 00:46:55.610 People use it, just want to have people use it. 00:46:55.610 --> 00:47:00.680 Um, and that's a huge reason why WordPress has been successful. 00:47:00.690 --> 00:47:02.830 It's folks like you and me who have advocated for it. 00:47:02.990 --> 00:47:05.180 Again, whether or not you're thinking of it actively, like 00:47:05.180 --> 00:47:06.670 I'm an activist for this thing. 00:47:06.840 --> 00:47:08.540 I'm like, Hey, this thing's pretty cool, let's use it. 00:47:08.550 --> 00:47:11.330 And it's free, it's this open source thing and a bunch of people use it. 00:47:11.700 --> 00:47:13.650 It's good to just like distill down to that and you're just like 00:47:13.650 --> 00:47:16.020 cool use it versus this company. 00:47:16.020 --> 00:47:21.010 I have no idea about Wix You know, I don't know if that answers your question, 00:47:21.010 --> 00:47:26.320 but that was um, that's how I see that commercial side of defeating WordPress 00:47:28.020 --> 00:47:34.100 Mark: Yeah, I think that it's just I Really go back the more and more 00:47:34.100 --> 00:47:37.360 that I talk about this stuff and and then in some ways it's really 00:47:37.360 --> 00:47:39.310 like a large conversation about 00:47:41.530 --> 00:47:44.270 I don't want to say like large conversation about one guy, so to 00:47:44.270 --> 00:47:48.540 speak, but it is like a lot of it really comes back to, again, I feel like the 00:47:48.540 --> 00:47:50.410 control that, that Matt Mellenweg has. 00:47:50.410 --> 00:47:52.400 And again, I, I'm really like an 00:47:53.410 --> 00:47:54.030 Matt: open. 00:47:54.550 --> 00:47:56.260 So you see that as a bad thing, right? 00:47:56.540 --> 00:47:58.500 Let's try to close this out with some conclusion. 00:47:58.520 --> 00:48:02.270 You see that as a bad thing with his control over this? 00:48:02.810 --> 00:48:07.920 Like, do you, do you see his position in leading WordPress as a bad thing? 00:48:10.105 --> 00:48:10.975 Mark: Um, 00:48:13.125 --> 00:48:13.655 Matt: This is me 00:48:13.655 --> 00:48:15.275 Mark: pulling the pin out of the grenade. 00:48:15.485 --> 00:48:16.355 Matt: I don't think so. 00:48:16.425 --> 00:48:17.535 Mark: No, I don't, no, I don't. 00:48:18.175 --> 00:48:18.515 Thanks. 00:48:18.925 --> 00:48:28.355 I don't, I don't think so because I don't really care what the rules are. 00:48:28.355 --> 00:48:31.705 I keep saying it like that but I don't, I don't care what the rules are. 00:48:32.155 --> 00:48:33.635 This is a, this is a life thing for me. 00:48:33.665 --> 00:48:34.875 I don't care what the rules are. 00:48:34.905 --> 00:48:37.945 I need to know the rules or the circumstance or the, 00:48:37.955 --> 00:48:39.065 the guidelines or whatever. 00:48:39.725 --> 00:48:42.525 I just feel like I've never really fully known that, but now we do. 00:48:42.645 --> 00:48:44.365 I feel like a lot of people didn't know that truthfully. 00:48:44.365 --> 00:48:47.255 And now it's a seismic shift. 00:48:47.745 --> 00:48:48.145 Matt: And now 00:48:48.145 --> 00:48:50.625 Mark: they realize that Matt Mullenwee is the king. 00:48:50.685 --> 00:48:56.395 Um, and that's actually fine when I say fine, it's like, thank you for telling me 00:48:56.525 --> 00:48:56.785 Matt: right 00:48:56.815 --> 00:49:01.375 Mark: now with that information, I am going to make my own decision of whether 00:49:01.375 --> 00:49:06.825 I want to stay, how much I want to use the platform, how I actually have to literally 00:49:06.955 --> 00:49:10.514 re this is a lot of shit that I've seen, like people have to literally refactor 00:49:10.515 --> 00:49:12.905 their whole thought process on wordpress. 00:49:12.955 --> 00:49:14.425 And again, I want to emphasize this. 00:49:14.445 --> 00:49:16.955 I understand people have been here for much longer than I have, like years and 00:49:16.955 --> 00:49:19.065 years, multiple decades almost right. 00:49:19.315 --> 00:49:24.725 Like they, Are going to like, I can understand the turmoil that that brings 00:49:24.725 --> 00:49:28.115 to somebody when you think it's been like one way the whole time and now 00:49:28.155 --> 00:49:35.045 either again intentionally or just by by need or maybe the veil was pulled off. 00:49:35.055 --> 00:49:38.405 I don't really think that that really is the case, but like now it has to change 00:49:38.415 --> 00:49:42.015 or it did change or the, the, the rules of change, the guidelines, whatever. 00:49:42.335 --> 00:49:43.495 And now it's something different. 00:49:43.765 --> 00:49:44.975 So that's me. 00:49:44.975 --> 00:49:45.425 That's me. 00:49:45.425 --> 00:49:47.125 I don't, I don't actually. 00:49:47.125 --> 00:49:47.135 Yeah. 00:49:47.135 --> 00:49:47.144 Absolutely. 00:49:47.545 --> 00:49:50.335 I don't, I wouldn't tell Matt Mullenweg, it's not the type of person I am, 00:49:50.335 --> 00:49:53.485 that you have to do something with the platform that you poured all of 00:49:53.485 --> 00:49:54.715 your time, energy, and money into. 00:49:54.725 --> 00:49:55.615 I, I, that's not me. 00:49:55.625 --> 00:49:57.135 I'm not going to tell him how to do his thing. 00:49:57.455 --> 00:49:59.755 What I am going to do though, is I'm going to observe that, 00:50:00.025 --> 00:50:00.885 and I'm going to be like, okay. 00:50:01.825 --> 00:50:04.295 These are the new parameters that I'm operating in. 00:50:04.595 --> 00:50:05.715 How do I feel about that? 00:50:05.725 --> 00:50:06.545 What am I going to talk about? 00:50:06.545 --> 00:50:08.735 Because I'm free to have my own thoughts and opinions on it, and 00:50:08.745 --> 00:50:10.105 use the thing if I still want to. 00:50:11.145 --> 00:50:13.825 So to answer your question more succinctly, do I think it's a 00:50:13.825 --> 00:50:15.195 bad thing that he has control? 00:50:15.800 --> 00:50:17.280 Not inherently, no. 00:50:17.350 --> 00:50:22.500 I think that it's, I'm glad that we know it and I think now the question 00:50:22.500 --> 00:50:28.710 becomes is do we agree with what he is controlling and like what his thought 00:50:28.710 --> 00:50:30.270 process is and how he's handling it. 00:50:30.510 --> 00:50:36.150 I do think that with these new set of parameters and with what has happened. 00:50:36.860 --> 00:50:38.460 There are two things can be true at once. 00:50:38.460 --> 00:50:42.080 Like he could want open source to continue and say that and be and be like that and 00:50:42.090 --> 00:50:46.700 also be ruining the thing that he has been building like the community aspect of it. 00:50:47.070 --> 00:50:48.710 I think those two things are true. 00:50:49.120 --> 00:50:53.280 And to me, I'm looking at it going, that just seems like a poor play 00:50:53.490 --> 00:50:57.750 from somebody that wants their thing to continue to be prosperous. 00:50:58.200 --> 00:51:00.150 And as somebody, as a user in the community. 00:51:01.070 --> 00:51:03.490 I don't want to say I'm a thought leader by any means, but like somebody that 00:51:03.490 --> 00:51:06.710 makes some content around this shit, it's like I can't just not say anything 00:51:06.710 --> 00:51:09.670 about that because this is a strange situation that we're in here where we 00:51:09.670 --> 00:51:14.380 have a guy that wants to be a steward of open source actively is, and I don't 00:51:14.380 --> 00:51:17.270 want to go into the drama thing, but I'm just trying to like pull it all together. 00:51:17.670 --> 00:51:20.150 The open source thing really is at the linchpin of it and it's 00:51:20.150 --> 00:51:23.770 used as kind of like a, like the reasoning for a lot of it. 00:51:23.850 --> 00:51:27.610 But I still think that the actual definition of the whole thing is kind 00:51:27.610 --> 00:51:34.220 of like co opted in a way where We just keep throwing more things to it. 00:51:34.420 --> 00:51:36.860 At the end of the day, it means that it's free to the public, right? 00:51:36.880 --> 00:51:37.850 And you can see the code. 00:51:38.030 --> 00:51:39.200 Does it mean anything else? 00:51:39.520 --> 00:51:41.390 I, I don't really think so on the surface. 00:51:42.100 --> 00:51:46.000 Because all the other shit that people have been thinking about and attributing 00:51:46.000 --> 00:51:49.795 to WordPress are actually on the brand side, the business side, that a lot of 00:51:49.795 --> 00:51:53.795 like WordPress Specific people I feel like, they're in business, like they're 00:51:53.795 --> 00:51:55.765 here and there, maybe they're employees, maybe they have their own plugins, but 00:51:55.765 --> 00:51:57.855 like this is big time fucking business. 00:51:57.855 --> 00:52:00.935 Like these small problems like ten years ago are massive now 00:52:00.935 --> 00:52:02.035 because of how big this is. 00:52:02.265 --> 00:52:02.725 You know what I mean? 00:52:02.725 --> 00:52:05.365 Like anything like that, it's just, it's just how it gets. 00:52:05.415 --> 00:52:10.425 So, um, and it's just we, again, this is so big that I don't think anybody's 00:52:10.425 --> 00:52:11.645 really ever seen something like this. 00:52:11.645 --> 00:52:13.585 The only competitor, like you said, is like Linux. 00:52:13.815 --> 00:52:16.365 So, and it's in a different industry entirely. 00:52:16.365 --> 00:52:17.455 So, um. 00:52:18.000 --> 00:52:18.390 Yeah. 00:52:18.450 --> 00:52:21.240 Uh, I don't know if that answered anything, but that's, 00:52:21.380 --> 00:52:22.840 that's, that's how it is. 00:52:22.940 --> 00:52:24.320 I don't think he's bad. 00:52:24.320 --> 00:52:27.930 It's just, it's, I'd have to continue to see what, what, what evolves. 00:52:27.930 --> 00:52:28.850 But those are my thoughts right now. 00:52:29.180 --> 00:52:29.400 Matt: Yeah. 00:52:29.400 --> 00:52:29.660 Yeah. 00:52:29.660 --> 00:52:34.770 Like I, I'm just not in the, in the camp of, um, Yeah. 00:52:34.880 --> 00:52:38.600 You know, I, again, if I, if I reflect on why it's always been WordPress, 00:52:38.600 --> 00:52:43.240 it's, it's for me, it's not because it's because I felt like I had a say in it. 00:52:44.190 --> 00:52:48.060 I just knew that this was a piece of technology that I could 00:52:48.110 --> 00:52:56.340 understand, look at, uh, unpack, break apart, and know what's happening, 00:52:56.950 --> 00:52:58.420 regardless if I did anything with it. 00:52:59.070 --> 00:53:02.470 I just want to know, like, how this thing operates. 00:53:02.690 --> 00:53:03.830 Yes, it's under the GPL. 00:53:03.830 --> 00:53:04.960 Yes, there's a community behind it. 00:53:04.960 --> 00:53:06.660 There's all these, like, good things for it. 00:53:07.060 --> 00:53:08.500 But I like the idea. 00:53:08.880 --> 00:53:14.190 Of being able to see what this thing does, especially if it's gonna contain my 00:53:14.190 --> 00:53:16.950 life's work, overemphasizing a little bit. 00:53:16.950 --> 00:53:21.570 But if it's my blog post, my media, my comments, my forum, like this 00:53:21.570 --> 00:53:25.080 is my thing and I'm gonna be able to move this thing around the web. 00:53:25.170 --> 00:53:27.180 Don't like it over here, I can move it over there. 00:53:27.360 --> 00:53:29.880 Wanna change the way it looks, I can change the way it looks. 00:53:30.180 --> 00:53:30.450 Right. 00:53:30.450 --> 00:53:33.570 And this is my thing that I kind of own. 00:53:34.110 --> 00:53:36.780 Um, you know, so that's why it's, it's always been. 00:53:37.325 --> 00:53:39.055 Important to me to, to support it. 00:53:39.385 --> 00:53:43.465 Never felt like I was making an impact, you know, on the software until I got 00:53:43.495 --> 00:53:49.155 my command K go to template parts button put in, I really felt like every time 00:53:49.195 --> 00:53:51.045 I still use it every day, every day. 00:53:51.045 --> 00:53:53.435 But when I'm in it, I'm like, I made this happen. 00:53:53.775 --> 00:53:55.545 Um, or at least I was a small part of it. 00:53:55.955 --> 00:53:59.865 And, um, you know, that, that is important, uh, too, but I mean, I just 00:53:59.865 --> 00:54:03.535 like supporting it because I think it's, um, I think it's important. 00:54:03.725 --> 00:54:04.355 I think where it. 00:54:04.435 --> 00:54:08.535 Um, I think what we've seen now, at least in my head, and I've been 00:54:08.535 --> 00:54:11.525 talking to a lot of other content management systems through CMS minute. 00:54:11.525 --> 00:54:15.815 com, um, and talking to these guys running their, their particular CMS, 00:54:16.075 --> 00:54:18.065 they have some open source components. 00:54:18.315 --> 00:54:22.425 They have free versions of it, but at the end of the day, like they're 00:54:22.425 --> 00:54:27.855 not free and GPL on except for ghost, um, where, although I don't know if 00:54:27.885 --> 00:54:30.135 ghost is GPL, but it is open source. 00:54:30.525 --> 00:54:32.624 Um, but some of them are like, look, we're, we're. 00:54:32.945 --> 00:54:33.945 We love that idea. 00:54:34.045 --> 00:54:37.535 We want to incorporate more, but we also need to survive and we need to make money. 00:54:39.455 --> 00:54:39.865 Total. 00:54:40.305 --> 00:54:41.165 Totally get it. 00:54:41.435 --> 00:54:43.265 100 percent right there for you, man. 00:54:43.275 --> 00:54:44.305 Like, totally makes sense. 00:54:44.825 --> 00:54:48.735 Does that mean I would use, like, would I still choose your platform over WordPress? 00:54:49.225 --> 00:54:49.674 Mm mm. 00:54:49.675 --> 00:54:51.055 A little bit harder sell. 00:54:51.625 --> 00:54:55.765 Um, but I think what all of this does is it starts to open 00:54:55.765 --> 00:54:58.015 up the idea of alternatives. 00:54:58.865 --> 00:54:59.805 And I said this before. 00:54:59.805 --> 00:55:02.105 I said this on the, on the Fork WordPress with Kevin Geary. 00:55:03.445 --> 00:55:11.055 If you give me a blogging platform that is like WordPress, but slimmed 00:55:11.065 --> 00:55:17.465 down, ultra fast, open source, I think that's the play for anyone who's 00:55:17.465 --> 00:55:18.945 thinking about forking WordPress. 00:55:18.955 --> 00:55:24.325 Don't fork WordPress at its entirety and then go through the same challenges that 00:55:24.325 --> 00:55:27.005 we've had for 20 years, which is like, how do you build a website with this thing? 00:55:27.285 --> 00:55:28.975 Go back to the essence of it. 00:55:29.585 --> 00:55:32.895 And build a project around blogging and putting words on the internet. 00:55:32.895 --> 00:55:37.525 That, I'd instantly go, there's another one? 00:55:37.715 --> 00:55:38.345 Okay. 00:55:38.475 --> 00:55:42.915 I'll definitely play with this on my blogging sites and stuff like that. 00:55:43.655 --> 00:55:46.335 Mark: Well, we don't, that's, that's a topic for another episode. 00:55:46.435 --> 00:55:50.355 Cause, uh, we, uh, we, I definitely don't, I got some thoughts on 00:55:50.355 --> 00:55:52.425 that, that we're not going to agree together there entirely. 00:55:52.455 --> 00:55:54.535 But, the last thing I'll say here is, What, words on 00:55:54.535 --> 00:55:55.735 Matt: the internet are still viable? 00:55:55.745 --> 00:55:56.535 Is that what you're going to say? 00:55:56.615 --> 00:55:59.970 Mark: They're definitely still viable, they're just not, They're, if they're 00:55:59.970 --> 00:56:07.030 not, if they're not below other mediums, they're, it's, it, it's decreasing fast. 00:56:07.510 --> 00:56:09.670 So that's my, that's my shorthand version of that. 00:56:09.670 --> 00:56:13.700 But let me, let me, let me, one thing on this is, and this is maybe another topic 00:56:13.700 --> 00:56:19.250 that kind of revolves around that, but this concept of, I, I don't have any data. 00:56:19.370 --> 00:56:20.410 This is a hypothesis. 00:56:20.410 --> 00:56:21.220 Just think about this. 00:56:22.250 --> 00:56:24.620 It is my belief, my hypothesis, that. 00:56:25.070 --> 00:56:29.250 The world, again, and the general average person, is not 00:56:29.440 --> 00:56:31.400 like you just explained there. 00:56:31.480 --> 00:56:35.420 Like, the archetype that you just painted yourself as, that wants 00:56:35.420 --> 00:56:40.360 to know and values the open source aspect of things, that like cares 00:56:40.360 --> 00:56:41.780 about all that, I think is shrinking. 00:56:42.070 --> 00:56:45.470 I'm not saying it's a good thing, I just think it's happening. 00:56:46.175 --> 00:56:49.765 And it's, it's purely, the assumption is purely based off of 00:56:49.815 --> 00:56:53.795 all of the social media that has sprouted 10 years or so, right? 00:56:54.045 --> 00:56:59.955 Where we're just handing our shit over, our data over, into a locked black box and 00:56:59.955 --> 00:57:02.295 we, we are, like, it's a give and take. 00:57:02.345 --> 00:57:05.545 Like, you can, there's people that are creating brands and actual, and 00:57:05.545 --> 00:57:07.645 garnishing attention on these platforms. 00:57:08.115 --> 00:57:11.695 But, at any time, they could pull the switch and it could be gone, right? 00:57:12.085 --> 00:57:14.845 But the problem is, and this is again another topic for a different discussion, 00:57:14.855 --> 00:57:19.465 is the level of distribution is like, the distribution part is so, you told me this, 00:57:19.475 --> 00:57:21.755 like, I mean, I'm not telling you anything you don't know, but the distribution 00:57:21.755 --> 00:57:25.615 is so valuable that people are willing to do that and take those risks. 00:57:26.185 --> 00:57:29.865 And honestly, in some cases, I can't really fault them entirely for doing that. 00:57:30.035 --> 00:57:32.275 I do think maybe you should still have your own open source platform. 00:57:32.275 --> 00:57:34.715 Obviously, we're, you know, proof of that and everything. 00:57:34.985 --> 00:57:38.780 But I'm just saying that, I worry, genuinely kind of worry, and maybe this 00:57:38.780 --> 00:57:44.000 is the con, the concept, is that I'm literally being swayed in that direction 00:57:44.220 --> 00:57:48.960 because I am starting to see all the perils of open source from WordPress 00:57:48.990 --> 00:57:51.280 but also you can kind of like, you even just mentioned a little bit on 00:57:51.280 --> 00:57:55.180 the other platforms they're not like full, uh, you know, everything's free, 00:57:55.180 --> 00:57:58.320 everything's open because they understand that they still have to make money and 00:57:58.320 --> 00:57:59.930 they have to protect some of their shit. 00:58:00.450 --> 00:58:04.830 I Kind of also totally agree with that, that if I put my blood, sweat, and 00:58:04.830 --> 00:58:08.360 tears into building something, I also want to kind of own it to a degree. 00:58:08.520 --> 00:58:11.630 Maybe not everything, but like the main shit that's going to make me money. 00:58:11.630 --> 00:58:13.780 That just doesn't sound like a good business decision to 00:58:13.780 --> 00:58:15.000 give everything away for free. 00:58:15.840 --> 00:58:20.270 So, I think people are seeing all of the things that have came before them, the 00:58:20.270 --> 00:58:23.650 CMS stuff that's came before them, the open source pieces just in that realm. 00:58:23.930 --> 00:58:26.300 And they're like, Hmm, maybe we're not going to do it just like that. 00:58:26.460 --> 00:58:29.330 And I feel like over time, it's going to continue to go that route 00:58:29.430 --> 00:58:32.950 where we just don't have, there will still be open source stuff, 00:58:32.950 --> 00:58:35.790 but it's not going to be like the entirety of everything that you have. 00:58:36.185 --> 00:58:37.715 And I don't even know, where's WordPress gonna go? 00:58:37.715 --> 00:58:38.725 We talk about that all the time. 00:58:38.875 --> 00:58:39.725 Is one version, is 7. 00:58:39.725 --> 00:58:40.635 0 or whatever? 00:58:40.685 --> 00:58:41.755 You're just gonna be like, oh, you know what? 00:58:42.305 --> 00:58:43.675 Everything before, still open. 00:58:43.815 --> 00:58:44.885 Moving forward, nah. 00:58:45.045 --> 00:58:45.445 You know what I mean? 00:58:45.455 --> 00:58:45.795 I don't know. 00:58:45.795 --> 00:58:47.435 So