Kevin: Hello and welcome back to Subspace Radio.
It's me, Kevin Yank
Rob: And I'm Rob Lloyd.
Kevin: And we are here one last time to talk about Star Trek: Lower
Decks, season three, episode 10.
The Stars At Night was our season finale.
Rob: And what a ripper it was.
Kevin: Look, it was, it was alright.
In my mind, it was not one of the season's strongest, but this has
been such a strong season that even a week episode is a strong episode.
This had a lot going for it.
There was a lot of spectacle for a season finale.
It felt like a season finale in the way that it felt like a little
movie, uh, with all that all the production value brought to the table.
But I think it continued the trend from last week where it still felt to me, not
like an episode about our lower decks characters, but about a story told on
a, the bigger canvas of the Federation, about The Cerritos and, we learned this
episode, the California class starships.
So I think I agree with you now, Rob, I think you've called it that Lower
Decks is transitioning from a story about ensigns that never see any of
the action because they're working below decks, to a show about the lower
decks of Starfleet, the lower class ships, in this case, the Cerritos.
And in a sense, I suppose that may have been inevitable, like Starfleet
officers, at least the good ones, they grow, they get promoted.
And so maybe that was always gonna happen here, but I think I expected this
show to be a little more like frozen in time, the way many sitcoms are.
That you know, the family around the couch never changes.
No one ever moves out.
No one ever goes to college.
It is frozen in time.
And I guess I was expecting seven seasons of seeing these people scrub the decks.
Rob: Yeah, it's, it, it is interesting.
I mean, it's, it, it shows, uh, that this was the next inevitable step,
because there's a specific reason why they chose the Cali class to be the
ship that these lower deckers were on, and they've, they're starting to really
ingrain that into the whole show now.
And now it is a part of it.
That, you know, this entire class is the lower deck within the Federation.
And so even the people who are on the bridge are working
their way for recognition.
And so, it's not one of the, the big ships, it is the one that, you know,
uh, Captain Freeman has to work so hard and fight so hard for recognition,
especially within that hierarchy.
Kevin: I'll be curious whether, come season four, it goes back to the formula,
we return to the lower decks, or if this is a more permanent progression.
In the same way that Voyager became about Seven of Nine, a character
that didn't exist at the start of the show, maybe Lower Decks will be
about the Cali class, a ship that we had only seen one of for most of
the first, few seasons of this show.
Uh, but we'll see.
I think I'm, I'm on board either way, but Lower Decks, in hindsight, it
did start so strong and it did give us something so fresh and different
from what we get from other shows, I do mourn that loss a little bit.
Rob: Right.
Yeah.
I mean, I really liked it.
I know cuz um, I love that whole camaraderie of all
the Cali class coming in.
I love that, you know, beautiful cliche line of the going,
You can't do this alone.
That's why I called all of them.
And, you know, wham, wham, whamm, wham.
They're all, all coming in and just, they're going, the Calis are there to
support one another and a great Jack Quaid doing an amazing job listing off
all the, all, all the California cities.
Kevin: Yep.
Uh, it was great.
I just, I think it is a shame that Brad Boimler now seems to be a minor
character at the conn rather than the protagonist of this series, or one of
the two protagonists of this series.
Rob: Yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's very much a case of, um, yeah, expanding out that the, the bridge crew
to now become a part of this larger ensemble, uh, finding that time for
everyone to get their moment to shine.
And so because they've had so much focus, you know.
It, it did seem a little bit weird at the end when Migleemo
had his moment with Tendi.
I'm going, um, What's Tendi really done this episode?
Did she get her moment?
You kind of wedged this in.
Kevin: Something, something, science.
Rob: Something, something, science.
But then she has a beautiful run in with the, with the, the Vulcan.
That was a little bit ham fisted.
Kevin: Yes T'Lyn coming in as had been promised in the behind the
scenes stuff from the beginning of this season, like Mike McMahan has
been saying in interviews, Oh, that's not the last we're gonna see of our
Vulcan crew and, and, and T'Lyn.
They're coming back for season three.
And I was expecting a whole other, uh, you know, across ships,
across races Lower Decks episode.
But what they were promising was a very last minute arrival of her as a
new regular character for next season.
Rob: And you know what that means?
Now they can play baseball.
It's great.
It's good.
Kevin: Uh, judging this episode on its own terms, though, rather
than wishing for what it isn't, I think it was a really strong one.
Some of the plot does not quite hold up to close scrutiny.
Like I do not understand why the Texas class automated ships being successful
means the Cerritos, or the California class is to be decommissioned.
Like that seems like a very odd, if this then that.
They do hang a lantern on it a little bit with, uh, with Captain Freeman saying, uh,
oh, I, I came up with this mission race.
Oh, I made it up in the spot.
Don't, don't think of it too closely.
Like there is a bit of that don't take this too seriously projected
over this whole episode, but, uh, yeah, it, it was a little strange.
Rob: It is very much a case of, uh, it happens a little bit in, uh, the
Steven Moffat era of Doctor Who, which is sort of like, it's the, uh, the
morning after of, of storytelling.
Um, when you're sort of like, in that moment you're there
going, This is incredible.
This is amazing.
Oh, it's so heightened emotion, and it's incredible.
It works.
And then the morning after you go, Oh God, what have I done?
Oh God.
Your, your, your, your mind and your logic goes through the walk of shame of going,
Oh, how could I be convinced by that?
Oh, why did I believe that was so dramatic?
Why did
Kevin: There's a little bit of that here.
The whole idea of automated ships, uh, takes us back to a, uh,
original series episode called The Ultimate Computer, in which Dr.
Daystrom uses the USS Enterprise as a test site for a, an automation system that will
run the ship without any crew members.
And ultimately that computer, which it is revealed has been patterned off of Dr.
Daystrom's own brain, uh, goes crazy, destroys some ships, and has to be
forced out of control of the ship.
Uh, as usual, Kirk convinces the computer to shut itself down, uh,
as punishment for its own crimes.
But the idea that that occurred, uh, roughly a hundred years before this
episode in Star Trek history, and seemingly they have learned nothing.
Uh, and the, the reference is there to be seen, because the screen of the
automated Texas class ships in this episode, the, the kind of, uh, blinking
lines, horizontal and vertical lines, that is the screen of the M-5 multitronic
unit in The Ultimate Computer in TOS.
Rob: Listeners, if you could only see the physical representation
that Kevin Yank is doing right now.
Kevin: Dance of Geometry.
Rob: And also the fans of Interpretive dance.
It's a, it's, it's a great combination of maths and art.
Kevin: Yes.
Rob: They finally, um, sorted out, uh, Rutherford.
So we found out, um, that it was all, uh, the admiral's fault.
Kevin: Okay, so Rutherford, his implant has an AI in it, and it's the same
code that runs these ships, because Rutherford programmed the ships.
I, I just don't, I don't
Rob: And it had something to do with, um, was it, uh, Badgy as well?
Kevin: Yeah, well, he used his own code from his implant to create Badgy.
And apparently that code also is what, in his forgotten life, he used to create the
prototypes of these Texas class ships.
But, Rutherford is a cyborg.
I don't understand why that means he has an AI in his head.
Rob: Yes.
It's a wave of the hand and the captain going, Oh, I'm making it up as I go along.
Kevin: In a, in a sense, I'm kind of glad that this storyline is over,
because if it was never going to make sense, I'd rather put it behind
us and move on with the character.
Rob: Yes, very, very true.
Um, and, uh, Rutherford's having a good moment of like, you know, you're
keeping the cybernetic implant?
And it goes all dark going, Plus it's cool!
Kevin: But it's so cool.
Rob: And my talk last week about how's this gonna be healed?
This is like,
Kevin: Mmm.
Rob: Uh, a mother disowning her daughter.
Kevin: Yep.
Mariner comes back and says, It was all my fault.
I handled it worse than
anyone.
Rob: And the beautiful line of going, I'm sorry I didn't trust you.
And he goes, Well, I've kind of been spending the last couple of years, proving
to you that you shouldn't trust me.
Um, I'm there going, That is very mature of you, Mariner.
I, I, maybe it's a little bit of
Kevin: Almost too mature.
I think we've happened on the conspiracy for next season,
is Mariner's been replaced.
Rob: Mariner's Been replaced by a, an ancient sarcophagus, mask led, um, spirit.
I really loved Boimler's arc with Shaxs and how emotional Shaxs
got and how up upset he was.
I love how emotionally in touch he is.
And his parade of honor, his march of honor as he's running
down and they're all, All right.
Well done, sir.
And he goes Thank you.
Thank you very much.
Kevin: To eject the Warp Core, which is also, it's not just Shaxs
who loves to eject the warp core.
Nerds everywhere love the idea of ejecting warp cores.
We could do a whole episode around all the times they almost ejected the warp core.
Rob: Exactly.
Kevin: I love the little, uh, montage before the mission race where the Cerritos
was trying to like do some last minute training to make themselves ready for it.
And Ransom's like, Here's how you sit on a chair.
You throw your leg over it, and then you sit.
And, T'Ana out of nowhere has a riding crop now that she carries around.
I'm not sure I've seen that before.
If it isn't new, I noticed it for the first time today, but it didn't go away.
She was carrying it around for the whole rest of the episode.
Rob: That's a whole other Holosuite program with Shaxs
that we haven't seen yet.
Kevin: Yes.
And the first good advice we've gotten from Dr.
Migleemo.
Tendi, that's cantaloupe talk.
I want you to be a can-aloupe.
Rob: It took me, I had to, I had to pause, go back and just
to go, did he just, just, I
Um, so yeah, I, I had a lot of fun with this.
The battle scenes at the end were genuinely exciting.
Like,
Kevin: they were really good.
Rob: the skid out of warp when they eject the warp core and the spinning
around, and then they're, yeah.
Kevin: I can't believe I didn't mention it before now, but this, this entire
episode being centered around Douglas Station, this beautiful starbase like
my favorite model apart from maybe Enterprise D in all of Star Trek history.
We got, we got to see it from every angle.
We got to, you know, weave in the, in between the towers of the
office complex spikes on its top.
We, we saw it up close in more detail than we have ever seen that kind of starbase,
and uh, that was a delight for me.
Rob: Yeah, we saw its defense mechanisms as well, and
Kevin: We, we saw its insides hanging out after it was peppered by phaser
Rob: That's what I was trying to figure out.
Has, has that space station been attacked in that way.
I mean, obviously in Star Trek IV, um, the probe goes past it and just blacks
out, but it's, I don't think I've ever
Kevin: Never been under direct attack.
No.
Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it was fully under attack.
Like we saw people get explooded all over the place, Kevin.
Kevin: Yes.
Here's my petty detail of the week, which is at the climax of this battle,
when Captain Freeman gives a command, I think, to either ram the ships or
abandon ship, something like that.
She gives the terrible order we don't want to have to carry out, and Mariner
swoops in just in the nick of time.
Mariner's voice comes over the comm and says, Belay that order.
So does Mariner on a non Starfleet ship have the ability to just listen
in to whatever Captain Freeman is saying on the bridge of the Cerritos
to countermand an order like that?
Um, these are the things that do not hold up on second viewing.
Rob: That's, Yeah.
That, that is, that is the morning after of going.
Wait a minute.
Okay.
It's a cool moment, but let's just go back and work on the
logistics and the logic of this.
So, I mean, the, these, these future archeologists are good,
but they're not that good.
All right.
So, um, you know, I was so, boisterous at making grand statements about how
this will change the Federation and the continuity of this franchise.
And of course it's a conspiracy with a bad admiral.
Those damn admirals!
They give anyone an admiralcy in the Federation.
Come on.
Kevin: So we are gonna talk about other memorable bad admirals here today.
Rob: Uh, would you like to go first, Kevin?
Who is the bad admiral that you have, uh, drawn attention to first?
Kevin: Do you want a good one or a bad one?
Like a good bad admiral or a bad, bad admiral?
Rob: Oh, see, I went to bad, bad admirals.
Kevin: Oh, right.
I'll start on the bright note with a good bad admiral.
This is the time they did it right.
This is Admiral Satie from the Next Generation episode, The
Drumhead, season four, episode 21.
It is revealed that a Klingon exchange officer that was on board the Enterprise,
uh, may have been responsible for the sabotage of a system on the ship.
And admiral Satie comes aboard to sort things out.
What's going on on this ship?
I'm gonna get to the bottom of it.
And she is an admiral, uh, and has all the weight of that.
But she is not one of those admirals who like commands ships and things like that.
She is an investigator.
She is here, uh, as almost a, a judge, jury and executioner to conduct
the internal investigation of how did things go wrong on the onboard
the Enterprise, uh, in this case.
And she, she gets carried away.
She, uh, sees conspiracies everywhere.
She suspects everyone.
She, uh, unmasks an officer who it, uh, who is a perfectly innocent officer,
um, who is posing as half human, half Vulcan, but she reveals that he's
half human, half Romulan and destroys his career in Starfleet for it.
But he is a completely innocent guy.
He just lied on his CV in order to get into Starfleet.
And, and that moment when she, she ruins the career of this person who had
nothing to do with the investigation is the turning point of the episode at
which Picard goes, She's going too far.
This is a witch hunt.
I need to stop her.
Uh, and like a number of other really great, uh, Star Trek episodes, this
ultimately ends in a court room drama, where Picard turns the proceedings around
on the judge and reveals the judge for being the completely maniacal out of
control power-mad person that she is.
Um, yeah.
And the observing admiral stands up and, and kind of leaves.
And that's like the, there is no moment of, well this is completely over with.
Like it is the subtle thing of the admiral who was like quietly lending
his credence to the entire proceedings, he just stands up and walks out.
And, and Admiral Satie is just like devastated by this.
You just see all the air go out of her and, um, it is beautiful
character work by an amazing actor.
And, uh, I, I love this evil Admiral.
Admiral Norah Satie is played by Jean Simmons.
Rob: Is that like the Jean Simmons from like, um, Spartacus and Guys and Dolls?
Kevin: Yes, that's right.
Rob: Oh my God, it's Jean Simmons!
Kevin: Absolutely.
Um, yeah, so if you're gonna get an evil admiral, cast, an Academy award
winner, I think is what we have learned.
What have you got for me?
Rob: It's a favorite of ours, we've talked about a couple of times.
A certain movie that doesn't get as much recognition as it should.
Um, but yeah, there's a, there's a nasty bad admiral all going out for his
own good, um, to harness the fountain of youth that is there and through
deception and taking the people, the rightful inhabitants of that planet away.
Uh, we're looking at Admiral Doherty from Star Trek: Insurrection.
Kevin: Yeah.
We've watched a bit of, uh, Insurrection recently for another episode, so I was, I
got a nice refresher on Admiral Dougherty.
I agree, he does not get the praise he deserves for the subtle job he
does of playing this character.
Rob: Very much so.
Normally the admiral would be, sorta like the puppet master behind
everything, but it turns out you think, Oh my God, it's all him.
And then you find out, Actually no, he's just, uh, a pawn of, uh, you know, F.
Murray Abraham, who's
Kevin: He's in too deep.
He, he got into it for the right reasons and then just small
concession by small concession.
He ended up being
Rob: Death by a thousand cuts.
Yeah.
And then gets his face contorted to all get out.
Wow.
Kevin: Yeah.
I think that death is a, the opposite of a death by a thousand cuts in some way.
Death by a thousand, pulling in different directions.
Rob: It is, is by far one of the, uh, most gross forms of death that we have seen
in Star Trek from what I can remember.
Kevin: Yeah.
Pretty gruesome.
Rob: Um, but yeah, it's a, a subtle reveal, and I like those, like I've
mentioned, that, that layer upon layer of, you know, of how, yeah.
And how he has evolved from, You think it's all him, but he's
actually just a, uh, you know, he's been undone by his own goodwill.
You know, the road to hell is paved by good intentions.
Kevin: The, uh, the opening of that movie with Data going, uh, a little
haywire because his emotion chip uh, objects to the ethics of the situation
going on on the planet is lovely.
Like we know Data is in one of his most vulnerable states,
and he's away from the ship.
What's gonna happen to him ultimately is in control of this admiral who
we've never met before, and he's a little too, uh, quick to request the
schematics and, uh, and suggest that he might have to be, uh, killed.
And so, yeah, you are set up to distrust this admiral from the
beginning because he's a danger to Data.
Rob: Yes, and I mean, it's, it's, it's quite a big achievement because
from my outside looking in the view of the TNG world, you'd be able to
give me a clearer description of that.
You know, apart from the little odd, uh, conflict and standing up for his
people, Picard and his Enterprise crew are, compared to former captains and
future captains, they kind of toe the company line, you know, quite well.
They're sort of like the model… not, I wouldn't go so far as to say Boy
Scouts, uh, but they are very much.
So for them to be pushed so far to extreme to do, said, titled you
know, the titular insurrection.
Um, and that's a, that's, that's a big achievement from Admiral Dougherty to
be able to get those who believe and support the Federation far more than
any other captains we'd seen before.
That's a, that's a huge step to get to that point.
Kevin: Yeah.
Okay, I'll go next.
And as promised, I have a bad bad admiral.
Rob: Well done.
Welcome to the squad.
Kevin: Here we are in another movie.
I think this is, this is a movie thing, uh, Rob, that, movies, when
you need to justify the budget of a feature film, you have two choices.
One is universe ending war, and the other is bad admiral.
Uh, and we got a bad admiral here in Star Trek Into Darkness with Admiral Marcus.
Rob: By the beautiful, incredible Peter Weller.
Kevin: Yes.
Uh, certainly what was bad about him was not the actor.
If anything, it was just so obvious that he was evil from the beginning.
You don't cast Peter Weller to be a, a fine, upstanding citizen.
Rob: Unless he is in full metaled armor uh, and, yeah, and, and
saving Detroit in the future.
Um, but yes, uh, I mean there's a lot I could talk for hours about the things that
are wrong with Star Trek Into Darkness.
Um, but especially, yes, he is so very much arch.
He puts the, you know, the arch into arch villain, so there, there is, at
no point where you do not think that he is, you go, Oh, it's that guy.
It's, it's, it's, it's the one who's
Kevin: Has anyone noticed how evil he is?
Rob: That's where you need a Boimler to stand up and go.
How about the guy who's acting really evil?
I think he's the evil one.
Kevin: Did you notice he has his ship on his desk, the secret ship
that is going to try to end the universe in the climax of this film?
Yeah.
His credentials include not just being an evil admiral, but a member of Section
31 as well, if there weren't enough evil in Star Trek Into Darkness, this
is a Section 31 admiral, if you please.
Rob: Something we didn't even mention is the post credit scene in uh, The
Stars at Night, episode 10 season three.
Kevin: Badgey's back.
Rob: Mm-hmm, or is it a little bit of a, a Section 31 adding more things to their
Kevin: Oh, maybe.
Maybe So.
Yes.
So yes, the plot of Into Darkness is a heck of a plot.
In this alternate universe in which the Federation and Starfleet are a
little more militaristic because, um, of the events of Star Trek
2009, Section 31 is the organization that discovers Khan's stranded
crew in space, not the Enterprise.
Rob: You're right.
Kevin: And evil admiral, Alexander Marcus decides to attempt to recruit
Kahn as an asset in Starfleet.
And he has Khan design and build photon torpedoes, and design and build
this amazing warship, the Vengeance, which is revealed at the end of this.
And the plot of this film, ultimately, is how Khan cannot be controlled.
Um, Admiral Marcus fails to keep Khan on a leash, Khan gets away,
gets a little out of control, and uh, and his cover is blown.
Rob: and kills Christopher Pike
Kevin: Yeah!
Rob: there's that moment Where Khan introduces himself and he speaks
it with such gravity that's not for the actors or that's not for the
characters in the scene cuz they have no idea who the hell that is.
But that is specifically just for the audience to go, Oh my God.
And it's just, it's a ridiculous moment that takes you out of any
type of connection to that film.
Cause it's there going, You are not speaking to the characters at all.
You're just speaking to directly to the audience cuz it's meant to mean something.
to them
Kevin: Yes.
This is pure JJ Abrams storytelling, that the point of the story is the surprise.
Rob: Yes.
Kevin: Cuz I think, if memory serves, in the lead up to this
film, people were like, So who does Benedict Cumberbatch play?
And they were like, Oh yeah, this guy Harrison.
Rob: Oh, it's John Harrison.
Kevin: Yeah.
Rob: It's Harrison.
He's.
Kevin: And people were like, Is it Khan?
It was like, it's definitely not Khan.
And so when it was revealed it was Khan, it was like, okay, so you had
to lie to us in order to surprise us.
That feels like you failed.
Rob: Um, so yes, Peter Weller, chewing up all the scenery and really filling
that cinematic role of, I'm an admiral.
I'm bad.
Get used to it.
Kevin: Yeah.
In a way I think he's a interesting mirror to Dougherty, where Dougherty's
heart was in the right place.
He believed that he was doing the right thing even after he started breaking
rules and his ethics in order to do it, until suddenly he was surprised to
become the villain of his own story.
Peter Weller's admiral, though, feels like he was like, I'm gonna do some evil.
How much evil can I get away with and still have this awesome desk?
Cuz that's my, plan.
Rob: I have found the perfect balance of evil and deception.
Kevin: So there you go, Admiral Marcus.
Not, not great.
Um, and not played with the subtlety of Dougherty, either.
Rob: No, no, no, no.
Peter Weller is definitely, uh, hamming it up to the extreme and it makes you
yearn for the days of him being, uh, subtle and precise as he was in Robocop.
Kevin: Have you got one more?
Rob: I do, I do have one more.
This is my first encounter with a bad admiral and it shocked me to my core.
Um, the first time I met him, he was endearing and helpful and put in danger
and, I wanted him to be saved and.
Kevin: Well, hang on.
Let's be clear here.
Since last week's shocking twist that you had interviewed one of our cast
members, when you say you met this admiral, do you mean you met this
Rob: No, I have not.
if I had met this admiral, I would've been, I would've.
Uh, yeah, I would've had many, many, many conversations.
And if I only had a 20 minute, um, limit, I would've gone No, no, no.
I haven't even touched on To Kill a Mockingbird.
Um, so yes, uh, I fell in love with him as generic friendly, you know, admiral
in distress, but then becomes one of the key figures in the ultimate conspiracy.
Oh, how the mighty've fallen Admiral Cartwright,
Kevin: Yeah,
Rob: Uh, Brock Peters from, Voyage Home and, uh, the Undiscovered Country.
Incredible actor of course, uh, did amazing work on Deep
Space Nine as Sisko's daddy.
Um, but here Cartwright is, um, right off the bat, he is a lovely character
sorting out all this issue with the President who was conveniently played
by Santa Claus, and with Sarek as well, and all this type of stuff.
And you know, they're heading for the bridge.
Oh my gosh, don't kill this admiral.
He's amazing.
Kevin: This is how you do an evil admiral.
You do a whole extra movie beforehand to set him up as a nice admiral.
Rob: Exactly.
And then he comes in and oh, he is, uh, nasty personified with,
uh, the issues with the and not wanting to trust them at all.
Kevin: Klingons will become the alien trash of the galaxy.
Rob: If we, uh, do an agreement with them, there'd be suicide.
Kevin: Yeah.
Uh, by the way, another link to this, uh, season finale of Lower
Decks: all of the Starfleet Command scenes occur in the same conference
room in which Admiral Cartwright is seen in Undiscovered Country.
The Only Nixon can go to China conference room.
Rob: You vouched for me?
Only Nixon could go to China.
Um, oh, now I've gotta go back and watch it again, just so I
could go, Oh, is that that moment?
That's where they all come in.
And that's, that's where, that's where Uhura says that
she's been lecturing and, oh.
Kevin: They've got a much bigger view screen behind them now, but
the desk and the lamps are the same.
Rob: Yes.
So Cartwright is, uh, introduced as a wonderfully, uh, you
know, the, the admiral you're rooting for and supporting for.
And then hates the Klingons so much.
He goes into a conspiracy agreement with them to destroy their.
own Accord.
it's a very messy, messy, convoluted
Kevin: It is.
If there is one problem with Star Trek VI and the edit where, uh, we get the
Scooby Doo moment of, of flashbacks to all the conspirators to make it clear
to the audience who the baddies were is a symptom of this is, it's not entirely
clear unless you're paying real close attention exactly what the conspiracy was.
Rob: And also you have to have watched the television version where they added in the
scenes where you've got Rene Auberjonois.
Kevin: Well, the good news is this 4K Blu-Ray release has both versions on it,
Rob: really
Kevin: can choose which one to watch.
Rob: only one to watch.
It's the extended one cuz you've gotta see Rene Auberjonois with an
arc eyebrow and a killer mustache
Kevin: and.
A flip chart,
Rob: And a flip chart, even though they're in the future, they go,
Don't you wanna use a screen?
We've got PowerPoint here.
No, no, no, no.
I've gone old school.
I've still printed it out.
And then you find out at the end that, you know, Rene Auberjonois is actually
the Klingon who's shot by Scotty.
But in the original theatrical one, you just think it's a Klingon.
Kevin: That's right.
So, Cartwright is involved in framing Kirk and Dr.
McCoy for, for the assassination of Gorkon at the start of this film.
But I feel like the reveal of the, the conspirators at the end of
the movie is so far from the, the murder of Gorkon that you kind of
forget what even the mystery was.
Rob: Yes.
And hearing who the co-conspirators are through, a mind meld is,
um, a little bit confusing.
Yes.
Yeah.
Cartwright Yeah.
that was a big shock for me when, especially when he comes in, he's so
full of, you know, piss and vinegar and he's all out of vinegar at the start, and
they go, What's happened to this great, I was happy to see Cartwright back,
but now he's like, and like he's, and he's smarmy up to Kirk when he's there
going, uh, better you than me fella.
And I'm there going, What is, what has happened?
And then he,
Kevin: Such a generous, uh, role I think in Star Trek VI for him.
Because like famously Valeris the character was created because
they originally wanted to make Saavik turn evil in this film.
But like Saavik, everyone loves Saavik.
Saavik can't be evil.
We need to create a new character.
And here, nice Admiral Cartwright turns evil and that was played.
Like we allowed the character that people liked to become a baddie
and for that to be shocking.
Rob: Yes.
It's a great moment of storytelling and it's a great moment of sort of like, what
would people refer to as now ret conning.
But it's that case of going, now this, we, we were honored to get.
You know, Brock Peter's in for, for, for our whale story and um,
well let's bring him back for this one, Nicholas Myer is back.
Let's, you know, and Nimoy and the writers going, Well, let's make him a bad guy
and let's get him go full Iago style,
Kevin: Mm-hmm.
Rob: which is great.
Kevin: It has so much more weight when, um, we see that someone can
turn evil under the right conditions.
It gives us this, this sense that the choices we make matter.
We see ourselves as good people, but we're gonna have to work to stay good.
People aren't born evil.
Rob: And it was a bit of a twist as well because it, you know, Like
they brought Kurtwood Smith as the president, so they didn't bring back St.
Nick from episode four.
And we didn't have Brock Peters there in, uh, Star Trek V.
So to have him back is sort of like, Oh, cool, okay.
They brought him back.
Hey, remember this character?
Yeah, he's kind of here and now.
Oh, cool.
He'll just be in the background again.
Well, welcome to have you back.
It's good to have, Oh my God.
Not only is he back, he's a crucial part of this whole thing.
Kevin: So do you want more evil admirals or is the inevitable, lampooning of the
pattern here in Star Trek: Lower Decks a sign that the evil admiral thing is done?
Rob: Well, that's the thing.
Do you think they were lampooning it or,
Kevin: Carol Freeman says to him, Uh, Buenamigo don't tell me
you're of those evil admirals.
And I think at that point, when you're naming it in the text of the show,
in the dialogue, I think it's done.
Rob: Maybe, maybe I was just, Yeah.
In my re watches, I was just too caught up in it going, This is, I, I go, Huh.
That's a good self reference.
All right.
Yes, it is real.
Uh, we've talked about this a little bit, previous weeks as
well, Sort of like, okay, okay.
This is revisiting old ground.
This has been done, You know, you've been going almost 60 years, guys.
What, what new stories are there to tell?
What new, uh, challenges are there to face?
And we haven't seen it within lower decks, but we've definitely seen it within
the, uh, within the star Trek cannon.
Um, it is very much an easy gimmick to get out within the cinematic world.
Oh, it's someone from the inside.
It's a guy we've never met before, or a person we've never met before, but
they've won an Academy Award in the past.
So, you know, give 'em a scene with, uh, with Patrick Stewart.
Kevin: I think for me it's all things in moderation.
As long as we have more good admirals than evil admirals, and as long as
the story is worthy, uh, the, and the character and the performance is, is
bringing something new to the screen, then I'm on board with more evil admirals.
Rob: Yeah.
And if we could make a point of admirals stop swearing at Patrick Stewart.
I'm all right with it, you know?
Um, if we could just cut down on, you know, stop having
the potty mouth in front of.
John Luc Picard.
Okay.
Kevin: All right.
Well, uh, next week we are diving into Star Trek: Prodigy.
Rob, you've got, uh, you've got some catching up to do.
How's it going?
Rob: I am doing okay.
I'm up to, I think around about season one, episode six.
So
Kevin: That's not far.
You got like four or five more episodes and you're
Rob: I dunno if I can do spoilers or anything like that, but I've just,
the end of the episode is, uh, Janeway and the crew of the protostar have
just, um, discovered that the former captain of the Protostar was Chakotay
Kevin: Mm, may or may not play into the episodes we have to discuss here.
Rob: Gee, isn't Kate Mulgrew great?
Isn't she just amazing
Kevin: Yes she is.
Rob: hologram or otherwise?
Kevin: Will, will Janeway be an evil admiral, is the question?
Rob: Oh, well, Is she she's not admiral on in the hologram is she though.
She's Captain Janeway in hologram form.
Kevin: Yes.
We need to talk more next week.
Rob: Oh, that's right.
Oh, yeah.
Um, uh, we'll, we'll it's, it's like those old, uh, talk shows
where they sort of like fade out