Spencer Horn
(00:11) Well, welcome everyone to Teamwork a Better Way. I am Spencer Horn. I am your co-host today for a show where we talk about how teams can perform at a higher level. And that really starts with how the team thinks and believes and really how they work together.

(00:29) And we bring in experts from all over the world to talk about how leadership can improve their work and create greater outcomes and greater team performance. And today we have a great guest. We have with us Deshaun Rose. Welcome Deshaun, so glad to have you.

(00:49) Glad to be here. Well, for our listeners who are used to this show, we normally have my co-host Christian Napier. And Christian got called away last minute to a very important meeting. He's a very important individual.

(01:04) So, We decided to carry on the show without him, so Sean, you gotta lift it up with me, my brother. And I know we've done this before, so I have every belief that you'll be able to do so. Now I want our listeners to know a little bit about you, so let me indulge them with a little bit of your background. So Deshawn is CEO and co-founder of Aim Forward Solutions and author of Power Partnerships, a strategic guide to building a loving relationship that lasts.

(01:40) He is the former VP and partner of a SaaS company where he's certified to read how a person is hardwired. I love that. DJ spent over a decade in rooms most leaders avoid, labor and management negotiations, couples on the edge of splitting, and teams who no longer trusted their own leaders. He learned the same lesson every time he mediated, trained, and coached.

(02:11) People need to be more aware, adjustable, and accountable. That's a problem. DJ also built the Mars Leadership Lab on pragmatic methods for real development. Twenty years in leadership taught him that systems create success and conflict is the refinery where character is revealed.

(02:35) Through Aim Forward Solutions growth plan strategy, he guarantees an ROI in 90 days or less. His specialty is coaching corporate leaders and entrepreneurs out of their comfort zones and navigate the journey behind the plan. So, welcome to Sean. So glad to have you.

Da Sjuan Rose
(02:54) It's an honor to be here, Spencer. Thank you so much for having me.

Spencer Horn
(02:57) It's quite a resume. I love the fact that there's this crossover between organizational dysfunction and personal relationship dysfunction.

Da Sjuan Rose
(03:09) Absolutely. There's a lot that correlates there that I don't believe that we acknowledge as much, and we have a good understanding about how we can utilize a lot of the skills that we learn in the workplace and transfer those over to a relationship.

Spencer Horn
(03:24) I agree with you 100% and you look at the work of Dr. oh my gosh, what's his name in Seattle? Gottman, Dr. John Gottman, right? And he talks about the toxins that destroy relationships. Well, those same things show up in the corporate world.

(03:40) It doesn't matter if they're professional or personal relationships. They could destroy either one of those. And you know, his research was based on couple interactions. But the findings, the benefits of the process that they create benefit us in professional settings as well, right?

(03:59) I mean, just the ratio of positive to negative interactions creates higher engagement, higher trust. So I think there's a great deal of crossover that we need to acknowledge.

Da Sjuan Rose
(04:12) And that's exactly what we need to focus on is how can we utilize more of those soft skills that we train on practice over and over again in the corporate space or usually in our workforce and apply those in our relationships. I also believe that marriage is a business. And if we understood how to partner better with our co-CEO, then after that, we can get long lasting results of sustainability because the rates right now, they're telling that they're not getting better. And we know how to scale.

(04:41) We know how to use ROI in business. But at the same time, are we applying that in our relationships? Are we getting the ROI that we need? Are we looking at how to get the KPIs?

(04:50) I mean, these are boring words, but after a while, they don't sound so sexy, but they mean something at the end because we understand what divorce feels like. And we know how daunting that is and how much it drains us of energy. But at the same time, if we were to put a plan together or a strategy that for in our relationships that we can apply to love and passion, and that would create more sustainability.

Spencer Horn
(05:13) I'm worried about that idea because that might mean I have a lot of back pay due to my partner.

Da Sjuan Rose
(05:21) That's a strong possibility.

Spencer Horn
(05:24) Well, you know, one of the things in your bio that you focus on is awareness. Psychologists say that Awareness, self-awareness is very low among people all around the world. They estimate that that awareness is around 10 to 15%. And so that means there's a lot of work for you to do in helping improve awareness, if that's right.

(05:49) Do you agree with that? And how does that show up in personal and professional relationships?

Da Sjuan Rose
(05:56) It definitely shows up in personal and professional relationships. And as you mentioned, I love to use the studies from Tasha Urick, which she's had a huge TED talk and Harvard study for 5,000 leaders. And out of those 5,000 leaders, like you said, only 15% are actually aware. 95% think they are aware.

(06:15) 15% actually aware. A Gallup poll also says that 99% of employees or people in engagement and relationships, they expect the leader or the other person to be aware. So 99% expect them to be aware. And how many actually are?

(06:31) We got 10 to 15%. Something's off in this scale.

Spencer Horn
(06:35) So, so why is that gap so big? I mean, why are people thinking, it's interesting, I mean, I, I haven't, I need to look up that study, which is, I was writing down, I need to, you need to spell URICH for me. Is that U R I C H? E U R I C H.

(06:51) E-U-R-I-C-H. So I need to look that up because some of the research I have found is that a lot of leaders or managers overestimate their impact, right? I mean, they think they're doing a better job than they actually are. And some of the studies that they recite are that about 95% of Americans, very similar to your number being aware, think they're better drivers than they actually are.

(07:18) I totally agree with that as well. And 40% of American drivers think they're the best drivers that they know.

Da Sjuan Rose
(07:25) Yeah. I'm a Southern California native, so I know traffic. I spend a lot of time on the road, so yeah, I believe that wholeheartedly.

Spencer Horn
(07:35) But why this gap between I think I'm aware and I'm not? What causes that?

Da Sjuan Rose
(07:42) I believe our learning and education system doesn't teach us to look within. We're always trying to figure out what to do instead of who to be. So there's not enough assessments out there. We don't do enough discovery.

(07:55) And even if we did, we don't have enough practice adjusting. So when I talk about that thing for us to be adaptable, it's just to make sure, how can we adjust out of our normal comfort zone? Because it's OK for us to have our stripes and our slots. No one's asking us to change those.

(08:11) But how can we adjust in different environments so either we blend in or we stand out when the need be? You don't want to stand out in an inappropriate time of being loud and obnoxious and in an environment where you need to be quiet. You don't do public speaking in the library. There's just areas where you have to go to adjust.

(08:31) And that's no different than any relationship in how we act in business.

Spencer Horn
(08:35) So for years though, psychologists and self-help leadership book, Tom Rath, you know, Strengths Finder 2.0. Oh my gosh, what are all their names? The Strengths, Now Find Your Strengths.

Da Sjuan Rose
(08:51) And so they just say, you know, just use your strengths.

Spencer Horn
(08:54) So if you're allowed in the library, you know, that's your strength. And, you know, I know that's, I'm sure they're not advocating that, but maybe they are because most of the time they're saying just lean into your strengths because that's what energizes you and it's what makes you happy. And I think that is the worst advice ever. I agree with what you just said is we have not learned how to adapt and adjust.

(09:20) And that takes greater awareness instead of doing, well, this is who I am. This is just who I'm comfortable being. You need to adjust to me or adapt to me. Because that's kind of the world that we live in today, isn't it?

Da Sjuan Rose
(09:30) Absolutely, it's the world that we live in today. And then we settle for who we are and we make that excuse, oh, I'm just the way that I am.

Spencer Horn
(09:38) But then that's couched in terms of authenticity. That's me being my authentic self, which I think is a load of rubbish.

Da Sjuan Rose
(09:46) At the same time, it's OK to be who you are. Because we all have our own belief system, and that's why we behave the way we do.

Spencer Horn
(09:54) Okay, but hold on. But what if who you are is that jerk or that unaware troglodyte Neanderthal leader who thinks they're 95% aware and they're only 15% self-aware? To me, that's the challenge, right? And you talk about organizational friction.

Da Sjuan Rose
(10:12) Yes.

Spencer Horn
(10:13) So how do you define that and why do so many leaders just fail to recognize it until their teams start to suffer?

Da Sjuan Rose
(10:22) They're usually reading charts and not getting a feel for their actual organization. They're not on the floor. They're not actually having experiences with their employees or frontline staff. They're taking surveys and that can give you some data.

(10:34) But the data is still not truly what's felt. And that's the difference. It's like, OK, I understand what the paper says. But let me understand what it feels like when I have these conversations.

(10:46) What are the nonverbals telling me? What are some of those cues that aren't displayed on paper to tell me exactly what's going on in my organization? So I understand what the true heartbeat is and understand how to adjust that pulse so, therefore, it beats to the tone of my rhythm.

Spencer Horn
(11:03) Will you explain or describe what is organizational friction?

Da Sjuan Rose
(11:09) Oh, that's a good, yeah. Organizational friction, of course. For me, it can start anywhere from soft skills, which is things like communication, or we call the core competencies, how to build trust and engagement and all those other things. when there's friction in people understanding how to get along, when they don't understand that they're on the same team.

(11:28) I like to use that word. I even use it in relationships whenever there's like two people who aren't aligned, same team. And it helps us just readjust and understand, hey, like, you know what, even though we don't agree on this thing, we're on the same team and we're focused on the same outcome. But there's friction also times in leaders, like it's no different than a household from a parent to a child.

(11:49) There's an employee and there's a manager. And sometimes it's just like there's a there's friction and hierarchy. You're telling me what to do, but I don't understand why you're forcing me to do this thing. And I'm burnt out.

(12:00) Like, help me help myself in order to get the goal accomplished. So, I mean, there's so many different layers of friction that comes along in the business where we're driving and we're telling people what to do. And at the same time, we're not helping or leaning into their strengths and saying, hey, I hired you for a reason. You're a great fit for the job.

(12:16) I trust in what you're doing. I'm delegating more work to you. All these things right here can cause friction because it's just like, how can we collaborate more? How can we work together in order to get greater outcomes and focus on getting to critical mass versus saying, I need you to do it my way.

(12:32) And if you don't, then after that, come back to me until you figure it out.

Spencer Horn
(12:37) Deshaun, can friction ever be a good thing?

Da Sjuan Rose
(12:42) Oh, absolutely. I believe in this thing called disruption. Disruption causes friction every single time, so we're focusing on change. Change causes friction.

(12:54) And after that, it causes disruption. But disruption is a friend. It's not a foe. Now, if we were talking about dysfunction, that's a whole other gamut.

(13:06) Because dysfunction is where the toxicity enters into the organization. That's when people start to bicker and they have those silos on the side after meetings. And no one's listening to who the leader truly is because everybody wants to be a control freak. That's the friction you don't want because that causes dysfunction and everyone's not working together and you don't have that cohesive unit.

Spencer Horn
(13:26) I like how you describe that. I usually term that the difference of the You know, we're calling it friction, could be conflict. You have cognitive conflict, where you're talking about ideas, right? That's where the disruption can happen.

(13:38) Well, let's come up with, you know, different ideas and get creative. And sometimes you have to have different perspectives in order for that, let's say, initial divergence, right? I mean, we need to, you have to diverge, but the only way to do that is if you have great ideas. That's cognitive conflict.

(13:58) That can be healthy. where it gets destructive when it's affective. In other words, it's focused on people. Like, I disagree with you, or I don't like you, or you're, you know, whatever.

(14:09) That's when it can become destructive. However, there has to be a point, Deshawn, after you've diverged, where you converge. You know, we talk so much about diversity. We talk so much about conflict.

(14:25) But at some point, once those ideas have been talked about, we need to then converge. We need to create unity at some point. Don't you agree? I mean, and how do you do that?

Da Sjuan Rose
(14:39) That's still a process where it takes practice. It just doesn't magically happen overnight. Like, even if I have a strengths test and I say, OK, here's your differences and your blind spots, and here's a great way to get along, and I can use AI to give me great ideas on how to collaborate better and create the harmony I want in my department.

(14:57) But at the same time, if I'm not practicing, and if I don't have a guide there in order to mediate, there's going to be more dysfunction than disruption. And this is exactly how you have to help people get out of their own way, because awareness can be there. That's fine. OK, I have awareness now.

(15:13) Great. What does that mean? I still have to understand where to adapt in order to be held accountable, because I want to make sure that I influence the person based upon their needs, not my own. I want to motivate them based upon the way they hardwired in order to make sure I'm driving them and I'm creating a high performer.

(15:30) And I'm getting the things that I want out of them. But other than that, you're going to get more skepticism along the way. You're going to get more resistance along the way. And that's exactly what you don't want.

(15:37) That creates a friction that causes you to fail.

Spencer Horn
(15:52) Yeah, you just raised something interesting, to me anyway. You mentioned that AI can actually help improve collaboration and team performance. And I'm thinking, well, hold on. What I'm seeing right now is how a lot of people are using AI is actually undermining collaboration, because we're using it as just individual performance enhancing tools, right?

(16:20) And so you've got a lot of individuals who are like, OK, well, how do I do X, Y, and Z? And so instead of collaborating with peers, they're collaborating with AI. And so I'm talking to machines and not my partners. And in a way, that's undermining collaboration.

(16:36) So I'm really curious about how you, talk more about, say more about what you just said. How can organizations use AI properly to improve collaborations? Because I think that's interesting and problematic is what I'm seeing right now.

Da Sjuan Rose
(16:56) Absolutely. I agree. I agree where you see the problems, but at the same time, AI can give us great insight. It can give us a lot of info and data on how people are different and how we can make sure that we discover some of those blind spots.

(17:12) And for me, a blind spot is nothing but an area where you don't have the same amount of strength as someone else. And sometimes we consider that a weakness. But there's opportunity there in order for you to collaborate. Like you said, once you close those blind spots, you have a well-rounded team.

(17:29) And that unit has more power and more effectiveness simply because they're aware. Now with the AI, it gives you that data and that information. It doesn't mean that you know how to apply it. It's no different than any workout book or video.

(17:41) It's no different than any Bible or religious book that's out there. We can read it and we can watch it until we faint. But does that mean that we know how to apply it effectively? No, that's where we need the guidance.

(17:52) That's where we need somebody to come in there to support us and help us. Because without that, it can be chaos all over again. Because we're only limited based upon what we think we know. And that's where that awareness comes into play.

(18:03) It's like, we think we know. We think we understand who we are. We have a good idea. But yet, is anyone helping us master that skill set?

(18:13) It's mindset, skill set, tool set to become an asset. When are we transitioning from skill set to tool set? We got to master something. We got to be great.

(18:23) And that's the goal right there in order to give us the results that we desire.

Spencer Horn
(18:27) In your experience, how do people receive feedback? Because I think that's really the key to becoming more self-aware is to receive I know personally, based on my personality early in my career, I struggled with feedback because I thought that meant that I was being attacked or I was being somehow belittled. That's a very fixed or closed mindset, but yet nevertheless, that was my mindset and it took a while to change that. But what do you see?

(19:02) How are people receiving that?

Da Sjuan Rose
(19:06) In my over 20 years of leadership, I understand that great leaders eat feedback for breakfast. Yes. And you must have feedback. And you have to understand how to digest that information.

(19:19) Now, if you are confident in who you are, and you are willing to grow, you're looking and say, how could I get more feedback? But a lot of people look at it as criticism. They don't look at it as far as construction. Well, that was me.

(19:31) You can use it. Yeah, really? And that's normal. A lot of people are used to that because they're just saying, oh, this is my flaw now.

(19:39) And people can see me now because they have this imposter syndrome. And I need to be great. And I need to make sure that everyone can see me.

Spencer Horn
(19:47) That's the fixed mindset, though, right? It is fixed. And I totally owned that I had a fixed mindset and would be defensive or felt like I was being criticized and, oh, my gosh, and undermining my authority or my ability.

Da Sjuan Rose
(20:03) That's what limits awareness. Because how are you going to grow if you don't know how to step outside of your comfort zone? If you don't know how to receive feedback, that's going to help you grow and stretch you. Stretching is nothing but an opportunity in order for you to build more muscle.

(20:19) It protects you. But at the same time, we say, no, no, that hurts a little bit. And then guess what? We go back into self-preservation.

(20:26) We want to protect ourselves and our feelings. And we close our mindset in order to say, hey, I don't want to feel that simply because it's telling me a truth about myself that I don't identify with.

Spencer Horn
(20:37) You know, I also recognize that when we know somebody, when we trust somebody and we know that they love, and I use that word on purpose because you can have that even in the workplace. I felt that from a mentor before, Deshaun. When they love you and they care about you and they want what's best for you and you know that, I remember receiving very difficult feedback to the point where my mentor and boss says, listen, if you can't change, I'm going to have to get rid of you. And I'm going to give you six months to figure it out.

(21:15) But instead of that crushing me, it motivated me because I knew that who was giving that feedback truly cared about me and loved me. And so at the end of that six months, he promoted me. Because I was able to listen to that. But if we don't trust the people who are giving, or we suspect that their feedback has ulterior motives, that can be definitely an inhibitor in receiving the feedback.

(21:42) Well, I want to go back to this AI question because it's interesting. I just had a conversation with one of my CEOs that I coached this week. We were talking about one of his direct reports that he was having, you know, totally capable, smart individual. There was just some challenge managing him.

(22:01) So we used my ProScan, you know, psychometric leadership and communication survey. And before I had a chance to talk to him, because we're running out of, you know, coaching sessions, he plugged it into ProScan. chat GPT and chat was really, really pretty good. Because what I had said before we had a chance to talk in my email when I sent him the report, it said this is a mini you almost exactly the same profile as his with like minor variation.

(22:34) But that minor variation had a real impact. And so But that's all he heard, and so he put it in chat GPT, and chat GPT says, well, you know, Spencer's wrong because your logic's different, which I hadn't even talked about. But it gave some great feedback, and here's what I find is executives and CEOs are now turning to AI instead of coaches, and they're relying on that sometimes. So then when we had our follow-up call, we were able to really dig even deeper.

(23:03) But I was impressed with some of the information that AI gave, and it was very helpful. It came up with, here's how you manage her, here's how you motivate her, and all the stuff that the report said, but in a way that he could absorb. And so what do you see people doing in terms of using AI or leaders instead of, again, connecting with a coach?

Da Sjuan Rose
(23:26) They're using it as an assistant, and I encourage it. It's something that we all should be doing because it provides us with data and information that we aren't always privy to. It gives us another viewpoint. And that's great to have other perspectives.

(23:41) And it gives us great, I would say, instructions on how to execute. Now, the difficult part is how to execute because that's when emotions get involved. It's not something that's just easily done. It's easily said.

(23:57) But it's something that you have to practice and you have to enhance that skill. So I encourage people to do it. I even encourage them to journal in AI. Portrait your thoughts.

(24:06) Give it an idea of who you are. Create your digital twin. Understand exactly. It needs to understand you in such a way where you don't have to continue to prompt it over and over again.

(24:17) It becomes your best friend, but also your executive partner, somebody that's going to hold you accountable, that's going to push against the grain. It's not designed that way. So you have to prompt. Yeah, of course, you have to put in there like, hey, I want you to give me feedback because the way that it's designed, it's going to give you always positive feedback.

(24:34) It's just. It's coded that way. It's there to make you feel good about yourself. You have to decode it.

Spencer Horn
(24:42) I have told it to tell me the truth, and then it almost apologizes. Hey, listen, you told me to be honest with you.

Da Sjuan Rose
(24:51) Every time.

Spencer Horn
(24:52) Here it comes. So it's making leadership easier from your perspective. How do you feel? Can it expose our weakness as leaders?

Da Sjuan Rose
(25:04) to an extent. It depends on if we're aware, if we put the right information in there. Because of course, I'm looking in the mirror and I don't want to accept the flaws that I have. I'm going to only look at the beauty pieces of it.

(25:15) Or I'm going to put this filter. Oh, I'm this great person. And I hear this feedback because that's the only part that I want to receive. And this is what I'm going to enter into the system.

(25:22) And that's the only thing it's going to recognize.

Spencer Horn
(25:26) So that's, yeah, so let me tell you how I use that for myself. I record conversations, coaching conversations. I record them on Zoom. People know that I'm doing that, but I then put that conversation in AI and have it evaluate me.

(25:46) I do the exact same. And it gives me feedback of where I messed up. and where I got into control instead of coaching. And so that way, it's very, very helpful.

(26:00) Even in tough negotiations, I record those calls just for the evaluation of how I did. And I think that is very, very helpful because when one of the challenges that leadership has is what Daniel Goleman calls the CEO disease. The CEO disease is at some point you get to the top of an organization and you receive less and less feedback. How many direct reports are going to go, hey boss, you blew it, right?

(26:37) You didn't do that right. We're wanting to impress our leaders. We want to get on their good side. And I know there are some organizations where it's safe to criticize the boss.

(26:50) But typically what happens, according to research, is the higher you get within an organization, and if you're a woman even more so, you get less feedback the higher up you go. So, we're talking about a way to become more self-aware and that's feedback and you don't get it. Maybe the best place to do that is with AI, because if your team is not willing to give it to you, and I think as a leader, one of the things you need to do is you actually need to empower people to give you feedback. You need to say, hey, I need to know why this is a bad idea.

(27:24) I need someone, even if you don't, I need someone to play devil's advocate, challenge me, and invite that, mine for that disagreement or that criticism or that feedback. What say you? Absolutely.

Da Sjuan Rose
(27:38) Now, when I enter as a consultant, I have the opportunity to do this because I can challenge someone outside of their comfort zone. Of course, I have them take an assessment. I begin to evaluate. And I don't go to them as a source.

(27:54) I say, hey, let me talk to you, or let me just sit as a fly on the wall in one of your meetings. I want to see them how they operate in real time. I want to see what triggers happen. I want to see how they respond to people.

(28:04) I want to see if they're encouraging. Are they supportive? Are they strictly focused on outcomes? I want to gather and process all this data.

(28:15) And that helps me provide them with the necessary feedback in order to be more effective in their role. Now, without that, and if I only just had AI and what they did, but like you said, you were recording your meetings. So therefore, it's able to capture some of those things. and understand those nuances that are involved in order to provide you with valuable data and feedback.

Spencer Horn
(28:42) What's the most expensive conflict an organization never talks about?

Da Sjuan Rose
(28:50) The most expensive? I would say that would have to be in building up I would say training leaders. Training and empower leaders, because people typically quit because of the leader, not the organization, or not because of their pay, or not because of the work and the duties, even though that may be daunting or overwhelming. That leader has power.

(29:14) That leader has a position where they can either build or they can destroy. And if we understood how effective their role is, I believe that there would be more training and development for leaders to understand, especially how to handle conflict. That's one area that they're not equipped to step into those rooms. They're not trained to handle the necessary, and they don't have the emotional intelligence.

(29:43) in order to say, hey, how could I walk us through some of these things that are challenging in our organization, whether I'm dealing with change management, whether I'm dealing with somebody that's a little performer, whether I'm dealing with somebody that's walking out the door. And we hate to lose high performers. It's like, I expect my high performers at some point to either want to elevate or walk out the door. because I have to make room for others.

(30:02) So they should be building up my army in order to make sure I have a full force that's ready to go at any given time to operate at their highest level. I'm not expecting just those few that are at the top to do all the work. So I mean, there's layers that are involved, and there's a lot of opportunity, I would say. But if we started with the leaders, I believe we would have greater impact in organizations.

Spencer Horn
(30:24) Well, what's one behavior that a leader exhibits that creates friction without that leader even realizing it?

Da Sjuan Rose
(30:36) I would say thinking that they're right, not delegating. I mean, that's just the one common and basic human need, is the need to be right. And with the position of authority, who's going to tell us we're wrong? Right, that's the CEO disease.

(30:54) Yeah, you know, and then that sometimes turns people into control freaks. And who's going to tell me that I'm wrong? Who's going to give me that feedback that I'm not willing to hear because they're in a position where they can't see me for who I am. They're lower than me.

(31:07) And it's this, I don't, it just creates this mentality that you're different than me instead of us being on the same team to create the win that we both need. And that causes the friction, that causes the distance, that removes some of the trust and those things that are necessary in order to build a team that's going to be great. So those are just little things that I believe that will make a huge difference.

Spencer Horn
(31:33) I had a mentor, the one that I was talking to you about, that gave me six months. And he used to always say that, Communication is the number one problem in business. That's what he said. So is communication the problem in reality or poor communication the root cause or is something—I don't know, is there something deeper that's going on that's causing poor communication that we're just—we're blaming on communication?

Da Sjuan Rose
(32:10) it's directly correlated to communication, which is understanding. I believe that the highest level of communication is understanding. If we understand before we're understood, the communication will flow more effectively. So my thing is, how well are we listening?

(32:27) Are we getting and gathering enough information? Are we fact finding? What is happening in our world where we're saying we understand our people enough, we understand our processes enough, we understand our mission and our goals enough? in order to make sure that we're understood.

(32:40) And that has to be an open lane of communication. It's where you get honest and open feedback. It's where you have an opportunity to create this speak up culture. And it has to be consistent.

(32:53) It can't be an event. It can't be a town hall meeting. It can't be just this one time where the CEO shows up or the manager says, hey, I have this team meeting. I want you guys to speak up and give me your feedback.

(33:03) No, it needs to be at any given point in time. And it needs to be a safe enough environment in order for that to happen.

Spencer Horn
(33:11) So from your experience, is that happening? Are leaders listening? To an extent.

Da Sjuan Rose
(33:19) They listen, but they don't do anything. So I believe that they heard what's needed. They take and provide these surveys. HR is doing their job.

(33:29) You have folks that are going out there and gather this data. But what's happening behind it? So therefore, you move the needle. You push, of course, we would offer incentives.

(33:39) We say, okay, I'll give you higher pay. You know, we may acknowledge them at the yearly party, but other than that, are we making a deeper connection or we are looking to focus on more correction? I think that connection is always before correction.

Spencer Horn
(33:55) Well, a hundred percent, but I don't see that happening. I see CEOs that are so busy being efficient. And so instead of listening and doing the inquiry that you talked about to understand or seeking to understand, they think they know, which we've already talked about, they think they know what's going on. And so they prescribe.

(34:18) and command and control and say, do it this way. And they're not listening. And so mistakes end up getting made. And it's interesting.

(34:29) And part of that dynamic, in my opinion, is caused by just the pressure to perform and achieve and to produce results. The paradox is if you actually slow down, Ask questions and figure out what's really going on. The decision making is better. The outcomes are better.

(34:54) The connection is made and therefore the proper correction can be prescribed and received with the right attitude.

Da Sjuan Rose
(35:08) And that's, I think, you know, in it on the head there, but that's what it takes the time to gather that information. Now, this is not a CEO, you know, bash party. The CEO must designate people who that understands what's necessary in order to get the job done.

Spencer Horn
(35:24) So listen, I'm knocking a few CEO heads. You, if you're listening out there, you need to get your head. whacked a little bit.

Da Sjuan Rose
(35:30) Come on. I honestly agree as well, because you lead by example. It's extreme ownership, right? It's just like, hey, if the team's failing and after that, it's the leader's fault.

(35:38) We need to understand, hey, where is this coming from? How can we change the ship or the direction that we're heading in in order to make sure that we are getting the goals and things that we desire? And that's not just in numbers. is an overall effectiveness.

(35:51) So it's just like, hey, are we performing at a higher level? Am I producing the team? Am I hiring people and putting them in the right seats? Because I understand who they are, and I know what my job and position needs behavioral-wise, not only what someone has on their resume.

(36:03) And that's another opportunity that we're losing at an acquisition because we, oh, yeah, I have this person that's great, and they look good, and they look at their resume, and they have all these degrees and all these things here, and yet they they don't understand what's truly the behaviors that are truly necessary in order to be great at their job.

Spencer Horn
(36:22) Agreed.

Da Sjuan Rose
(36:22) That's what I learned through predictive index. That's what I know you have through your system and your assessment as well. And these are just areas of opportunity that you can get more alignment. You can create a better opportunity for that person because you're putting them in a seat that you know they're going to have success with over and over again because they're hardwired for it.

(36:39) They're not going to get burnt out in six months from now. And the highlight of their job is not going to be during the interview process. You're going to see it years down the road when they actually become a long-term player on your team.

Spencer Horn
(36:51) You say organizational alignment between people, expectation, and systems is necessary, right? You need to have that. But in your experience, which of those, where does it break down first? Organizational alignment.

Da Sjuan Rose
(37:09) organizational alignment, I believe there's, I would say it breaks down first in onboarding. So I go back to that first process. Are we having the right people in the right seats? And therefore, I am, because once you get them aligned, you're equally yoked.

(37:29) You're able to have exponential results because I have you in the right place. I have you with the right leader. You're matched and you're buried and you're paired up and you understand where to go, but you understand each other in such a way where you can lean on each other's strengths. And that's why these assessments, I believe, are so valuable.

(37:45) Now, when you don't have that data and that information, the distance begin to happen or the alignment is off. And therefore, once you realize that, that's when the friction starts to increase because you're not just pulling your weight, you're pulling against somebody else who's supposed to be aligned with you. And that increases the weight of the load. And that's why we're bogged down when we want to go to work.

(38:06) Because not only do I have to understand what to do for a client or customer, I feel like I'm fighting against my boss. what a hell of a way to show up to work and that's why we're defeated. And we talk about the mood elevator here and we're showing up on floors and we're exiting when we walk through the door on lower levels that aren't productive because we don't understand what it takes in order to collaborate in such a way.

Spencer Horn
(38:31) So what's the conversation that leaders are avoiding here that you think creates that organizational friction or misalignment if not resolved?

Da Sjuan Rose
(38:47) I would say the leader who auto-corrects get the most respect. And first you have to admit either you're wrong or you have to change direction or, hey, I want to understand how you guys would like to lead here. They're just decisions made in rooms with people who aren't on the floor in the front line. And they're distant, and they're away.

(39:06) And after that, it's just like, OK, how do you get more buy-in? We talked about some of these things. How do you reduce suffriction? You've got to oil the engine.

(39:13) You've got to understand, hey, what's needed in order to create more of the results that we desire? And that's what we need to start.

Spencer Horn
(39:31) you Well, if you're listening to our show today, Teamwork a Better Way, our show is brought to you by Team Coaching International. And if you are looking how you can improve your team, we have a free diagnostic that you can claim. You take a picture here, or on the show notes, you can get a link to that. This is a team leader view.

(39:56) So as a leader of your organization, it'll allow you to assess where your team is at in terms of productivity. and the conditions on the team that allow productivity to be sustainable. That's things like engagement, trust, communication, the ability to disagree and have conflict, all those things that we've been talking about, and you can measure that. on our assessment.

(40:17) So go ahead and take that if you are listening. Well, what have I missed, Deshawn, that you really want to hit on for our listeners that you think is going to make an impact to reduce friction? That's really our theme today, is how do we Your expertise is conflict resolution. How do we get to resolution quickly?

(40:48) How do we create more alignment? I mean, we've been talking about all that. What have we missed? Where can you steer us next?

Da Sjuan Rose
(40:58) I would say the greatest pillar or the opportunity to start with is through safety. You can't have growth without safety. I learned this back when I was working in the juvenile hall, and I was in the classroom there, and I talked to a teacher about what's the most important thing that a teacher or a school does. And the most important factor in a school isn't the education portion of it.

(41:20) It's safety. Why? Because safety allows us to grow. And once I understood that at the age of 21, I applied that in every practice I went to.

(41:29) If I don't provide them with psychological safety and emotional safety, How do I expect to get the best out of them? How do I allow them to open up and give me the feedback that's needed? And then not only did I understand this in business, I've said, how could this work in my own household? So how could I apply this in my relationship?

(41:47) How could I allow my kids to come to me and speak to me in such a way where they can tell me the truth and I don't give them this immediate response? I get an opportunity to listen. Help me understand a little bit more. Tell me a little bit more.

(42:01) Describe this here. And it's no different than any sales mechanism or tactic. I use this formula called Tedish. tell, explain, describe, share with me, help me understand, and that T-E-D-S-H helps me get deeper.

(42:17) I use it in discovery meetings. I mean, I use it for so many different things, and it allows me to get beyond that shallow layer where people begin to open up, and now I get a true understanding of who they are, and now they feel safe because they can open up without me giving them immediate feedback or shutting them down.

Spencer Horn
(42:34) Well, someone listening to you might say, well, hold on, you just told us that we need to have friction, that we need to have disagreement. So how does safety impact friction and innovation?

Da Sjuan Rose
(42:51) Safety impacts friction and innovation because it doesn't eliminate conflict. It doesn't eliminate those things that you're going to deal with that causes friction, which causes disruption. but it will help you get through it. So safety allows a person to still open up, and it still allows us to be heard, and it still allows us to say, hey, I can speak in such a way where it's like I can give you the feedback that's necessary for us to grow.

(43:20) It's not what I want, it's what's overall beneficial to the organization.

Spencer Horn
(43:25) And that's where we have to start. Safety is actually what allows effective friction to happen, not the dysfunctional kind. And that is what allows innovation to happen. Because if everybody's thinking exactly the same, you're never diverging, which we talked about in the beginning, right?

(43:44) But it takes safety to say, well, what if, or I don't necessarily agree with that. I think we need to look at something different. And people not shutting that down and saying, OK, that's interesting. So being curious.

(43:57) creates safety instead of judgment saying, well, we don't do that here, or that's the wrong way. Safety allows questions to happen, allows your kids to come to you, allows our employees to come to us and give us that feedback that so often we miss because of our position authority.

Da Sjuan Rose
(44:18) That's true. And if we stop operating out of fear, and we understand how to operate on the love frequency, which I don't mean that in a more affectionate way, but in a way where we're looking to develop, we're looking to help, we're looking to inspire, we're looking to empower, all these things right here are operating out of love frequencies, then therefore we'll create that environment, we'll reduce the friction that causes failure, and after that we can focus on the friction that produces power.

Spencer Horn
(44:51) I'm looking for the book that you wrote.

Da Sjuan Rose
(44:54) This one here, Power Partnerships?

Spencer Horn
(44:57) There, talk about that.

Da Sjuan Rose
(44:58) Power Partnerships is our strategic guide to building a loving relationship that lasts. I used to live in Las Vegas, and of course, I understood the odds are always in the house. The odds are always in favor of the house. When we look at relationships, it's like the odds are actually against us.

(45:17) We're gambling with our hearts. How can we create a system or something that's better? We all know how to love. Very few know how to partner.

(45:26) We're not taught these things. So I created a guide here that helps us understand exactly how to partner better. And I learned most of my principles here in business, because this is an area where we go and we have these discovery meetings and we have, you know, all these, some conflict training, very limited, but at the same time, we're looking at different one-on-ones and understanding how to make adjustments and what's necessary.

(45:51) But do we do that in relationships? Absolutely not. And there's a huge opportunity there for safety, accountability, understanding, and alignment.

Spencer Horn
(46:00) So if I read your book, how's that going to impact my relationship with my wife?

Da Sjuan Rose
(46:07) It's going to impact it in a great way. You'll increase passion and prosperity. Because now you understand your business partner, which is your wife, in such a way where you can communicate with more respect.

Spencer Horn
(46:18) Well, prosperity suggests that I may have to put her on the payroll.

Da Sjuan Rose
(46:23) That's a possibility. But it increases your bottom line. I have this thing called the parable of the ox, where like, hey, if there's one ox can carry up to 5,000 pounds, but two oxen can carry up to 15,000 pounds. Why?

(46:37) Because through alignment and after that, it generates this engine that gives you exponential results. So one plus one can equal three. As long as you understand how to partner well and you have equal alignment, that's going to give you the results. And you guys are heading in the same direction.

(46:53) So that's why you have to recalibrate, have your one-on-ones or your yearly reviews, which we call our anniversaries. That's no different than an annual review. What should we start, stop, and continue? How can we benefit each other?

(47:03) And what is our goals? What can we project? What's happening? No different than what we do in business.

(47:09) We need to do more of that in relationships. And therefore, we can avoid some of the pitfalls and the failures that happen along the way because we're blindsided by them.

Spencer Horn
(47:18) So... Where did you live in Las Vegas Deshaun?

Da Sjuan Rose
(47:35) I lived up closer to the southern side right above like Southern Highlands. Yeah, so right outside of Enterprise and yeah, so I really enjoyed it there. The community is great. The heat is horrible.

(47:47) Yeah, and I love to go back to visit. You have so much to do as far as food, nightlife, you know, entertainment. But I've missed my family and friends that were close to here.

Spencer Horn
(47:57) I live right up by Red Rock Canyon, and my daughter lives there. They're moving here in just a couple of weeks. We're so excited that now our family's going to be close together. But we enjoyed our time in Las Vegas.

(48:10) It was great. So if somebody wants to get your book, where do they find it? How can they get it?

Da Sjuan Rose
(48:16) They can find it on Books Buy. Books Buy, pull up Power Partnerships. There's a digital copy that's available on Amazon. Can you give us a link to that for our show notes?

(48:27) Yes, I would definitely do that for you.

Spencer Horn
(48:29) Okay. So if you're ready, I have what are called a lightning round of questions.

Da Sjuan Rose
(48:39) Let's do it.

Spencer Horn
(48:39) Unless there's anything else you want to cover that we haven't talked about.

Da Sjuan Rose
(48:43) We're doing good. I like the dance that we're having here, so let's go ahead and... All right, here's the lightning round. We'll do the lightning round.

Spencer Horn
(48:50) These are like really short one-word or one-sentence answers, okay? All right. Finish the sentence.

Da Sjuan Rose
(48:56) Great teamwork is... Great teamwork is collaboration, and trust in a safe environment.

Spencer Horn
(49:06) The one word that describes the future of leadership.

Da Sjuan Rose
(49:10) The one word that describes the future of leadership is partnership.

Spencer Horn
(49:14) What's one leadership habit you wish would disappear?

Da Sjuan Rose
(49:19) The leadership habit that I wish would disappear is, I would say, control. having a, I would say, open, being open to being able to receive that feedback, or just being able to.

Spencer Horn
(49:35) And that's listening, right? Not being open, not listening, right? Like we were talking about. I'm trying to simplify it, yeah.

(49:42) AI will never replace blank.

Da Sjuan Rose
(49:46) The human experience.

Spencer Horn
(49:48) What's one misconception people have about conflict?

Da Sjuan Rose
(49:55) That it's negative.

Spencer Horn
(49:58) What's a book that influenced your leadership thinking?

Da Sjuan Rose
(50:04) Atomic Habits.

Spencer Horn
(50:07) Morning Person or Night Owl? Night Owl. Coffee or tea? Smoothie.

Da Sjuan Rose
(50:17) I don't drink coffee or tea. I prefer water.

Spencer Horn
(50:19) I got my smoothie here. A whole thing of raspberries with protein. That's great. What's one piece of advice you received that stayed with you throughout your career?

Da Sjuan Rose
(50:33) The way I do one thing is the way I do everything.

Spencer Horn
(50:37) If every leader listening today remembered just one thing from this conversation, what would you want it to be?

Da Sjuan Rose
(50:47) That one thing which I haven't mentioned yet is this you have to standardize before you optimize Gather the data realize what's happening around you collect feedback all those things and that would help you understand where you are You need to create a standard of excellence And once you do and you understand what that model is then you're able to to follow after it but without it and we don't have a self-awareness and we're not seeking what's necessary in order for us to grow, which is outside feedback or understanding, then we're always going to be limited and restricted.

Spencer Horn
(51:18) Well, I have super enjoyed having this conversation, learned so much from you, Deshaun. You know, I've talked with you before, and I know that you have so much knowledge and information. You're great in your coaching practice and your leadership training and delivery. What I am want our listeners to know is how, you know, you've also got a lot of skills in how you use AI and organizing your systems that you help your clients implement.

(51:48) If people want to know more about that, Deshawn, how can they get a hold of you? How can they reach out to you?

Da Sjuan Rose
(51:54) Yes, they can go to aimforwardsolutions.com. And you can also email me directly, djrose at aimforwardsolutions.com and you'll get a response. I mean, I'm here to help people. I would love to assist.

(52:16) And I'm open to having these conversations and collaborations because my superpower is problem solving. So throw a problem at me. And of course, that's when my wheels are going to start turning immediately to figure out how can we get to a resolution or an answer.

Spencer Horn
(52:29) Fantastic. All right, Deshawn, we're going to close up here, hang out for just one second after the music so we can wrap up you and I. But listeners, please like and subscribe to our podcast, Teamwork a Better Way. Share it.

(52:44) We so appreciate the incredible listeners that we have all around the world. And we hope to have you join us again soon. Thank you, and make it a fabulous day.

Da Sjuan Rose
(52:56) Absolutely. Take care.

Spencer Horn
(53:04) you