Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who
see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care.
I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.
I talk to poor some humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people.
So come and join us for today's conversation.
Anke: and welcome, Paul.
I'm extra excited to have you here.
Back at you.
Lovely.
So, I have here with me today the original dog, Whisperer.
So, you're in for an extra treat.
So, Paul, share with people, you know, where in this lovely world are you
and what's your business with dogs?
Paul: Well, uh, you know, I never know what's going to
come out of my mouth anymore.
So bear with me.
So
when I was writing my, my latest book is called, uh, training for the,
oh, wait a minute, Shameless Pluck.
I wrote this book.
I had a number of avenues I could go down because I'm celebrating my 50th
year as a professional dog trainer.
There's not many of us old fogies around anymore.
And so I was trying to decide, well, what theme do I want to go with?
And It turned out I have so many stories, I could fill a lot of these books, but
I decided that what I would like to do is celebrate the progress that we've
all made over the last, uh, number of decades, uh, treating dog kindness.
Is that a dog?
Anke: I've got two right here.
My, my two
Paul: girls.
If they're small enough to pick them up, show them to the camera.
All right.
Okay.
Uh, and so I decided what I wanted to do is make this a celebration,
make the book a celebration of, especially I think the two biggest.
changes since I started training back in the 70s to what's going on now.
Uh, the biggest, I think, is empathy for dogs.
Instead of being, we own dogs and their property, it's their
family members and their friends.
And that has resulted, and I did a short Study on it in hundreds of millions of
dogs being saved over the last hundreds of millions because people's hearts
have expanded all because of dogs and we look at those doleful eyes looking up at
us and we see that happy wagging tail.
I'm convinced that politics would be, uh, we wouldn't have as many problems
if while everybody was meeting they were holding a puppy in their hands.
Anke: If
Paul: anybody treated that puppy cruelly, they're out of there,
you know, and, uh, And so, dogs teach us a lot about ourselves,
and so I don't get too long winded.
Uh, I feel, as you do, uh, not only lucky, but blessed that we've
been able to, to work with these wonderful souls all these years.
Anke: I love that.
I love this so much.
And actually I will probably not be able to unsee that in politics now.
Always imagine everybody with a puppy.
That's so cool.
So, I mean, like when I kind of first had my first dog, that's kind of 20
years ago, he, like things have come a long way, especially where I'm in Spain.
It's like, you know, the way people relate to dogs has come quite a long way.
What, you know, on the scale to where we came from, where dogs were
literally like tools or toys for the kids or something, like something
that serves us, to, in your ideal world, where we would want to get to?
Where do you think we're at?
Paul: Well, that's a really good question, uh, because people like you
and I and the people that we have as friends and family Uh, we look at dogs
as basically like mirrors of who we are.
Well, I'm going to have to work on that because I'm feeling really
stressed and everything, and it shows us what we have to work on.
But it also talks about if there is a meaning to life, uh, which is another
good topic for a program, by the way.
Uh, if there is a meaning to life, the whole purpose, which I wish we
would have learned when we were in grade school, is the whole purpose
of life is to expand your heart.
And that's it.
And dogs allow us to do that.
Uh, and so on a scale from one to 10, I think we've gone from a one to
two back 50 years ago because of how I used to treat dogs for the first
14 years as a professional doctor.
And I didn't use treats.
And yet I had a dog who went on to become nationally recognized for how obedient she
was, and she wasn't trained with treats.
But it turns out she was just a great spirit, and she can handle anything.
She just rolled with it.
But then, after about 14 years, I said, boy, this is no way to
treat a family member and a friend.
And I had to go back to school to learn force free, reward based dog
training, non violent dog training.
And so, from Uh, a one to two fifty years ago.
I think we're up to a solid seven, uh, if we can get rid of the whole
property angle and you can have more programs like yours to help expand
the message that, you know, dogs are a lot more than we thought they were.
Uh, and so I don't get too long winded here, but dog trainer is
just like any teacher of anything.
You're learning how to dance, you're learning a new language,
you're learning anything.
The two biggest points we all try to make is that number one, education.
People, I don't know calculus.
I don't know how to play a trumpet.
I'm ignorant of those skills, so I have to learn them.
Uh, but so education is number one, but motivation is number two.
And once people learn to what their dogs can do and what their abilities are and
what they really mean to us in our lives, we're starting motivating to become even
closer and closer and closer to them.
So I think we're up to a solid seven, but boy, we got a lot of work to do.
Anke: Yeah, I know.
It feels like, I think, it does, it's my sensation too that we've come a
long way, but there's also You know, when I'm sort of, there's certain
people on the internet that you kind of follow, and you think, well,
they, there's almost like a pushback.
There's a particular guy that I have in mind, like he's a
dog trainer in Mallorca, right?
And he's constantly talking about how, basically, like his
narrative is fairly simple, and it's always about all problems.
That we have with dogs being aggressive and fighting people
and attacking each other.
It all comes from owners that are too permissive, like we're
too nice to our dogs, right?
So there is, and I think the part that I see dangerous and things like that, it's
like there's a half truth in it, Right.
They, they, you know, when people don't give a dog leadership, like it's not about
just allowing the dog to do just anything.
Right.
So it's, it's about teaching.
And so now he comes as a, well, they're just like too lenient and they're like,
Oh, you can't correct the dog at all.
So, well, of course the dog thinks they're boss.
And then, you know, the problem is that the case he's making, and
I see people like, Oh, this is the way, like, this makes sense.
This makes sense.
Right.
And it's almost like.
pushing back, you know, because at the end of the day, it does more harm than
good because it doesn't inspire people who are maybe not consistent in their,
you know, guidelines that that's not speaking to them, but the people who kind
of looking for an excuse to control the dog will use that as the justification
that I'm right in punishing the dog.
Paul: Boy, that's a, that's a That's a big wall.
Uh, when I switched over to positive training back in the late 80s and
everything, I found that because I was, I can speak with authority on
this because I was very successful using those and I'm very successful
using these, uh, but you just take a step back and say science is science.
Here's the two big secrets of dog training, which I'm sure
you've never heard before.
It's number one, dogs are transactional.
Whoever has the most value or money, that's who the dog listens to.
So the very first thing we do is we tell our clients to increase their value.
So, Just playing with it for a second.
If you have real chicken, turkey, cheese, hamburger, steak, bacon, roast beef, hot
dog, you are worth 10, 000 to 20, 000.
If you have dry treats when you first get a dog, you're worth 1, 000 to 10, 000.
And your praise is worth about 50 cents.
And people get, what do you mean, I bathe this dog, I feed this dog, what
do you mean it's only worth 50 cents?
Well, science is science, because your competition is Mother Nature.
Mother Nature in the form of anything novel, anything new.
The sights, the sounds, the smells, other dogs, cats, squirrels, the UPS
driver, United Parcel Service driver that comes to our doors and drops stuff
off, that's a 50, 000 distraction.
So, if Dogs listen to who has the most value.
The first thing you have to do is increase your value, and this
directly, hopefully, addresses what you just were talking about, Anke, is
that fear can't increase your value.
The dog says, I better not do something because something
bad is going to happen to me.
But the second is, is rewards, reinforcements, positive reinforcements.
They're also Increasing your value.
So the sliver of truth that you were talking about, it is true, that positive
reward based dog training, uh, it's It's positive, but it's not permissive.
Safety is number one.
So you have to set up an environment where the dog can basically learn
how to do stuff without you, without a fear of being hurt or being
physically or emotionally damaged.
And so there is a little truth that negative training does work
because you've increased your value.
However, And now I'm on a soapbox, of course.
Uh,
if we have, you humans have the intelligence and creativity and intuitive
sense to go to the moon, to do all the wonderful things we've got, we can
certainly get a dog to learn how to sit, lie down, stay, get you a soda out of the
refrigerator if you want, and, and, and it's their idea and they really love it.
So why can't we do that?
The fact is we can, and all the trainers and all of the programs, for instance,
like yours that are coming up are helping to spread that message, but boy, it
takes a long time to change a habit.
For you dog enthusiasts in the audience, let me take some, if
there are any over here, more than, more than my, uh, my friends here.
If you I have a little bit of value, and you feel that you can
change a dog's environment, how long does it take to change the
environment to change their behavior?
Two to twelve months.
My housemate, who I've been living with for nine years, dear friend
of mine, changed the light on our kitchen wall ten months ago.
I'm still looking at that other wall because I've been
looking at it for ten months.
So all science, uh, again, I'm getting along with it, uh, but all science
is just correcting neural pathways.
While we're talking, little neurons are connecting.
Hello, Joe, what are we learning here?
No, no, you want to go over there to Fred.
And, and.
A neural pathway is a behavior.
You connect enough of them and you replace the old behaviors with new behaviors.
First thing you have to do is increase your value because dogs are transactional
and number two, dogs are contextual.
Why does it take two to 12 months?
If you see somebody at work and then two months later you see
them in a restaurant and you go, I know that person from some place.
I can't get it.
And so you have to reintroduce yourself.
And then two months later, you're in Spain, and you see the person
sitting at a little coffee shop.
And you say, I know I know that person, gosh darn it,
but you can't quite place it.
That's not because the dog or you are stupid.
It's just because not enough neural pathways have connected.
That's why it takes two to twelve months.
Science is science.
So those are the two big secrets in dog training.
Increase your value.
Number one, make a sound like a kissy sound.
Uh, and give your dog a treat.
Pavlov used to ring bells.
So kissy sound treat.
Within a day and a half, the dog says, Oh, you never have to say no anymore,
just make that kissy sound and tell me what you want me to do instead.
And so you have to have big money with you for a couple of months, but just take all
the pressure off you and realize Mother Nature's doing all the work for us anyway.
And it takes her two to 12 months to build these roads.
Anke: Hmm.
I love that.
So, so now, now let's, apart, okay, we, we've established chicken, so now how
else do I Uh, increase my value, right?
Do I have to then go and say, well, let's just get some serrano ham out?
Are there other things than food?
Paul: You're, you're spot on.
Uh, and it's the number one transition that people like me who
were negative traits become tough.
Well, I don't want to have to bribe my dog and give them treats all my life.
Science is science.
So number one, you find something that dog, dog really likes to do is go outside.
You have them sit.
And then you say, okay, that's a safety concern among anything.
My dog is jumping on me.
What do you want your dog to do instead?
My dog is stealing food off the counter.
What do you want your dog to do instead without having to use food?
Life rewards are anything a dog wants.
There isn't food.
You want to go for a walk, want to get in the car, want to chase a ball, want to
get petted, want to get on the couch, you can do all of those things as long as you
sit, pick up a toy, go to your bed, lie down, look at me and ask, and I'll give
it to you, until it becomes a habit, and then you don't have to use treats anymore.
How long does it take?
Two to twelve months.
And the other thing is form what is called behavioral change.
You teach, this is stuff you already know, you teach a dog to sit,
You give him a treat and pet him.
He's teaching dogs to go to their bed and sit.
Then you give them the treat.
Teach your dog to go to your bed, sit down, stay, come, all that stuff.
And that's a behavioral change.
It's why here, do they have lotteries in Spain?
Anke: Yeah.
Paul: Yeah.
It's, it's why the people who set up the lotteries, you don't have to pay
people to pay, buy a lottery ticket.
They have found out that, and in science it's called anticipatory response.
Whenever dogs can anticipate something great is going to happen,
they'll do whatever you want.
Food isn't involved.
And so the lottery people were very smart, they set up these algorithms,
and they said, you know, if we get this amount of people to win this
amount of money, we'll start to form those neural pathways until eventually
there will be billion dollar payouts.
And we can pay them less and less and less and less and less.
And that is exactly how it worked with dogs.
Anke: That's a classic because like in Spain, people like
obsessed with luxury, right?
It's kind of like a primary, uh, investment strategy, right?
And so, and it is true.
Like you just need occasionally somebody here that somebody's won somewhere
and people spend massive amounts.
on the lottery, just in that hope that maybe next time it, it, it,
Paul: yeah.
Oh, I just might win that.
Maybe it's my turn.
And that's how we act.
This is how dogs act.
Science is science.
Anke: And I love this, like, yeah, I love the science piece to it because
it somehow takes, it feels like it takes the argument out for people.
Paul: Well, you know, I, I really liked that.
Uh, when you talk about negative training, the first thing I ask Uh,
because, you know, you're trying not to be judgmental or anything,
you just get to the science part.
Who did you learn your positive training from?
And I have yet to meet.
A person who did what I used to do, the leash corrections, the
pinning the dog to the ground, the jabbing, all that other stuff.
I have yet to meet somebody who has really taken a solid course
in reward based dog training.
So they can say, well, what is it you did, and can I show you something?
You don't have to believe, I'm, as you can tell, I'm very long winded, but you
don't have to keep talking to somebody.
They need to A, see it, and B, be able to do it.
All that being said, some people still won't change because they're
so successful using negatives, and that's how they identify themselves.
So, uh, but all we can do is, you know, one dog at a time, one person
at a time, and hope for the best.
Anke: Yeah.
And I think there is, there does seem to be a momentum that's picking up, right?
I did a summit in February and I remember we had like a little panel discussion
where I got everybody in the room.
And I remember somebody was, she said, I can't believe like for 30 years I've been
trying to spread this message and always felt it was just me yelling into the wind.
And now just to be in a room with a whole bunch of other people looking in the
same direction, you know, so it feels it's sort of picking up more as a, not
just some weirdo who just doesn't get it, you know, so, but it actually You know,
people get to see, it's like, hey, there is a better way of doing this, you know?
Paul: Boy, you're spot on.
I mean, I agree with that, but what the direct result of that is, A, I mentioned
earlier is that hundreds of millions of dogs have been saved because of this.
But the other big factor is, is the motivation of why am I
working with my dog, is because we feel better about ourselves.
In my children's program, Paws for Peace, Uh, I'll give you a real quick, my, my
book is all full of these stories, but in the Paws for Peace program, we would
have children in the back of the room, and I brought in my 110 pound golden
retriever, and everybody's a little nervous about dogs, uh, and they'd be
in the back of the room, and I said, you know, Grady's a little bit nervous, too.
You're gonna like this story, and Grady's a little bit nervous, too.
Can you help, help him feel a little bit more comfortable?
So I give everybody a treat, and especially the people in the back
of the room first, and I said, when you say Grady, Find it.
And so they, okay, I'm in the back and there's kids in front of me,
I'm feeling safe, and this is it.
And what we've just done is we've triggered curiosity.
Curiosity is the number one door opener for fears.
And so, okay, I'm safe.
Created an environment for safety.
I'm gonna take the treat and go find it.
The moment Grady takes the treat, a bridge is formed.
So, Mother Nature, in the form of this big dog with these big teeth and
everything, has just taken a gift from this child, Mother Nature in the child.
And so, what have you done?
You've reinforced something in the child's heart.
You've opened up the child's heart and said, I'm more connected to Mother Nature.
But in reality, she's saying, well, maybe this dog isn't so bad after all.
At the end of the class, All the children are petting this big old dog.
There's like 10 hands on the dog because he's so big.
And at the end, I always finish, I say, you were able to get this
big dog to sit and lie down and to pick up toys and to do tricks.
And you never had to yell and you never had to correct him.
You didn't say no or get angry.
Imagine what you can do with your brothers and sisters and friends.
So that makes it real.
Again, you can talk a lot, and I talk a lot, but you have to
show them if possible, and then they have to do it themselves.
I love that.
Anke: I love that, and that brings me to your book, which I've got, and it
comes with a whole bunch of videos where you can actually see this in action.
So, let people know where they can get that course on it,
Paul: where they can find
Anke: out about you.
But I think definitely get your course on the book because that's
the thing, it does come with a whole bunch of extra resources and videos
where you can see this in action.
And it's so, it's like, oh, it makes so much sense.
You can almost like put two and two together, like how it
would make sense for the dog.
Paul: Yeah.
Yeah.
How many people do you talk to?
All of a sudden their mouth opens and goes.
Awesome.
Of course, it's so simple.
It makes sense.
We just have to learn how to do it.
So thank you for that, uh, Anke.
Uh, so they can go to my website, OriginalDogWhisperer,
OriginalDogWhisperer.
com.
And, uh, the neat thing about the book is it's a read and watch.
So it's the first one, I think, that's been out there, uh, so you
can get, hold the book in your hands and go on the internet.
And then you can actually click a button that shows what we've just talked about.
So that's number one.
Um, you can buy it on Amazon also, but if you buy it off my website, 3 from the
sale of each book goes to the nonprofits, uh, that I mentioned in the book.
So if you could spend a little extra time doing that, uh, that would be
really appreciated, everybody benefits.
So thank you for allowing me to do that.
I appreciate it.
Anke: I can highly recommend it because I've got it and
I got hooked on the videos.
And it's just like delightful to see it in action, right?
It just brings it to life in this most beautiful way.
Well, thank you.
And we obviously put the links below the video above, or, you know, if you,
if you watch it and if you're on the podcast, it's obviously in the show notes.
So we're going to make it easy to find, so you don't have to go very far.
Well, thank you so much.
This is absolutely delightful.
And I was like, Oh, I'm just going to like looking for excuses to bring you back.
Paul: Well, that went quick, didn't it?
You can always tell something is fun when two seconds later it's over.
You know, I appreciate the opportunity.
All right.
Thank you.
Awesome.
Thank you.
Bye bye.
Thanks so much for listening.
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That's A N k E at Soul touched by dogs.com.