In this episode, Andrew discusses feedback he received from Alex Hillman on his marketing efforts for MetaMonster, and how he plans to adjust his approach going forward. He's now focusing more on creating content and building anticipation rather than rushing to convert customers. Sean shares his thoughts on personal branding and how he's reworking his online presence. They also touch on the pros and cons of starter packs for growing following on BlueSky and the value of being an authentic, relationship-based creator versus optimizing for algorithms.
Links:
00:00.01
Sean
Happy Thanksgiving, or Happy Post Thanksgiving.
00:03.75
Andrew
Hey, happy post Thanksgiving.
00:04.77
Sean
Hey. Yeah. Did you pick anything up for a Black Friday?
00:09.25
Andrew
Oh my God. I spent too much money. I, I got sucked into a die work where, Twitter thread on, uh, links to black Friday deals.
00:16.04
Sean
Oh, sweet.
00:22.53
Andrew
a couple of the links I was like, Oh, this looks really cool. That's $1,200 for a jacket. I cannot do that. I'm sorry. so I just can't bring myself to do that.
00:30.68
Sean
We gotta invest in yourself, man.
00:36.16
Andrew
I'm trying.
00:36.68
Sean
Okay,
00:36.92
Andrew
I'm trying to like push myself to slowly start buying some nicer pieces. I've got my eye on like a leather jacket. That's more in like the 300 360 range that I might
00:46.87
Sean
not bad.
00:48.08
Andrew
Pull the trigger on at some point in the next year in the next sorry in the next few months but yeah, but entirely too much clothing tend to like just buy nothing and then buy Everything in like one or two goes and then not buy anything for a long period of time And then I bought a bunch of gifts for people so it was actually like normally I don't do shit on Black Friday, but this time I was actually pretty
01:03.52
Sean
Yeah.
01:09.18
Sean
Nice. Sweet.
01:14.74
Andrew
Pretty active on the interwebs, on the, the e-commerce sites.
01:17.08
Sean
three
01:19.45
Sean
well i bought a humidifier so it has an app i haven't downloaded the app yet i know on weekends on weekends when i go to my computer when i'm in front of my computer i always feel like my eyes are really dry and i think it's because of a week of staring at the screen and then i turn on humidifier and it tells you how like dry your room is and it's like i think the like it was it was saying that the healthy range is 30 to 50 and when i turned on it was like
01:22.51
Andrew
Whoa.
01:25.08
Andrew
Welcome to your seventies.
01:36.73
Andrew
High strain.
01:47.95
Sean
15 uh like 1828 something like that it's like cool put that sucker on eyes not dry anymore life hack yeah
01:51.12
Andrew
Damn interesting.
01:55.44
Andrew
I get pretty dry in the winter around here. And then we have radiators. And so if we don't have the windows open, it gets so dry. But usually we have the windows open because our heating system is horribly inefficient.
02:09.12
Andrew
And so you're either like cold as shit or you are sweating. So we have to open the windows to like let excess heat out because we can't just like turn it down. It's old houses.
02:20.83
Sean
Got it. Yeah, sounds fun.
02:22.24
Andrew
It's pain. yeah
02:23.47
Sean
I also bought into, uh, detailed, which is Glenn Alsup's, uh, uh, SEO private group.
02:29.54
Andrew
Oh, Oh, interesting.
02:32.86
Sean
And, yeah, there was no sale. It was just like, here's the option to purchase it, which is kind of badass of him to do on a Black Friday, but.
02:39.65
Andrew
Yeah. It's like, cards against humanity always does the hilarious black Friday stuff. Like one, didn't they ah ah raise prices one year for black Friday? They were like, you can buy cards against humanity for double what it normally costs.
02:48.81
Sean
there
02:52.63
Sean
It's kind of sick.
02:53.77
Andrew
this year they sold a potato with diamonds stuck in it.
02:56.76
Sean
oh cards The original mischief, just saying.
02:56.93
Andrew
Like fucking weird.
03:01.39
Andrew
they They totally are the original mischief. That's very true. Is mischief still kicking? Are they still doing shit?
03:08.22
Sean
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They also have Black Friday sale. They're making shoes. I mean, whatever. I feel like they kind of fell off after the big but look big red boot moment.
03:19.61
Andrew
It's hard to like, when your business model is go viral, it's just hard to do that consistently, I think.
03:27.45
Sean
No. I disagree. I disagree. I disagree. I think it's hard to do that consistently and be ethical around how you do it. oh but I don't think ah they had a whole thing where that like, you know, every two weeks they would release a project and like, I'm pretty sure 70% of the projects were all sweepstakes.
03:40.89
Andrew
That might be true.
03:48.93
Sean
They were all like, sign up for things, share it, again, a chance to win in different flavors.
03:49.16
Andrew
Yeah.
03:54.46
Sean
And then with different like creators as well. So,
03:57.62
Andrew
Yeah, that checks out. I mean, fucking Mr. Beast has built yeah the largest YouTube following in the world, basically turning his channel into a lottery.
04:06.87
Sean
Yeah. Yep. Yep. Are you? Yeah.
04:09.00
Andrew
Gambling, gambling and porn.
04:10.69
Sean
Yeah. Hell yeah.
04:11.75
Andrew
So all the Internet's good for.
04:14.21
Sean
I agree. And this podcast, what else have you been up to the past two weeks?
04:20.50
Andrew
So I got roasted last week by Alex Hillman on Blue Sky.
04:22.14
Sean
Yes, you did. I'm Blue Sky.
04:25.75
Andrew
Very, very positively roasted. I I went to Blue Sky looking for feedback on I think I talked about it on the podcast last recording.
04:27.80
Sean
Yeah.
04:30.70
Sean
Mm-hmm.
04:34.84
Andrew
a Like I did this like kind of mini launch and trying to get, of what were we calling them, founding users, get people to convert to founding users.
04:43.58
Sean
Yeah.
04:47.12
Andrew
And we were talking about just like only one person replied. And yeah, it just was kind of a flop. so I was just trying to do the building public thing and talking about it on Blue Sky and asking you know people what what their experience had been with pre-sales and that sort of thing.
05:05.33
Andrew
And Alex Hellman was basically like, bro, you You like half asked this thing, what did you expect? but And I was like, oh, yeah, you're right.
05:14.06
Sean
Uh-huh.
05:16.21
Andrew
Yeah.
05:16.78
Sean
Yeah.
05:17.99
Andrew
Like, I think I talked myself into, oh, this isn't a launch, so I shouldn't treat it like a launch. I should just, you know, just show up and like, just make the ask. You don't get anything if you don't ask for it or some bullshit.
05:31.25
Andrew
And in reality, what I did was I like, I asked people to give me a lot of their time for very little in return with no buildup and no story, no explanation of the value they were going to get really beyond like a backlink.
05:50.85
Andrew
And shocker, that didn't work. oh So Alex basically roasted me. He was like, Hey, look, a launch needs to, you know, needs to have a story arc. It needs to have, it needs to build momentum. You need to build anticipation. You need to show up.
06:11.73
Andrew
multiple times before you actually make your ask for something. You need to let people know what's coming. You need to get people excited. You need to tell them over and over again how you're going to make their life better. And someone else weighed into it with with very similar feedback just about how like basically the copy in the email was very like meta-monster focused and not very customer focused. Alex also weighed in on like, he's like,
06:41.35
Andrew
your homepage is also pretty sparse and like doesn't do a great job of explaining the problem here. So you're kind of fucking up all over the place, which is not at all how he meant it like Alex is a super kind guy.
06:50.44
Sean
Yeah.
06:56.03
Andrew
And so he was just providing constructive criticism and honestly so grateful that he took the time to do that because it was so helpful and it was like, a good wake up call for me.
07:06.78
Andrew
So yeah, I can talk about like what I'm doing next. Most importantly, Alex is actually going to come on the podcast next week.
07:15.54
Sean
Hell yeah he is.
07:16.72
Andrew
So he and I are going to do a session where we're going to dive into some of this on the pod. We're going to talk about his feedback talk about like what we should be doing differently at MetaMonster.
07:27.99
Andrew
But yeah, before I jump into that, into what I've been doing since and like get into some of the specifics of his feedback. Yeah, you were following along as this was happening and like messaging me.
07:41.98
Sean
Yeah.
07:42.61
Andrew
So yeah, what were your takes?
07:46.35
Sean
well, uh, I mean, I thought it was great. I thought, I thought it was awesome. I, you know, I don't even think he ripped you apart as much as he was just very, and i if anything, I was like, damn, like, there's so much, there's just so much, like, the both of us don't know about these things.
07:55.47
Andrew
No, oh he didn't.
08:05.58
Andrew
Yeah.
08:05.76
Sean
Like it was ah ah it was a good humbling experience for me just as the person who's Been a sounding board and looking at the stuff and going. Oh, yeah, this is dope This is great. And like when he started talking about these things I thought about how non like objective I was looking at it because I you know, I know what meta monster is and I
08:25.87
Andrew
Yeah.
08:28.89
Sean
Yeah, anyway, as he ripped it as as he was ripping it apart, I was like, oh, wow, I can't believe I didn't catch any of these things this entire time. So it was sweet. I think other person who also so came at you, I think it was Amy Hoy, right?
08:44.75
Sean
I think.
08:45.28
Andrew
amy Amy is Alex's business partner with stacking the bricks.
08:48.26
Sean
Cool.
08:48.80
Andrew
she didn't I don't think she actually weighed in other than to like retweet some of his stuff.
08:51.05
Sean
OK.
08:53.48
Sean
Gotcha.
08:55.38
Andrew
She might have weighed in a little bit in the retweet. oh she yeah All she said was like free masterclass on launching from from Alex Hillman.
09:04.25
Sean
Hmm.
09:05.64
Andrew
The other person who weighed in was Jess Haney, who is a ah freelance strategist and copywriter who works with SaaS companies.
09:09.55
Sean
Oh, right.
09:14.40
Sean
Punch playing copy.
09:15.97
Andrew
And so she had some great feedback too, that was like very similar to Alex's, which was largely like, hey, this is all like you saying me, me, me, and not enough of like you describing the pain and the value for your for your customer.
09:32.64
Andrew
I think, yeah, I did try to do like a little summary.
09:38.10
Andrew
One thing was just like, treat any, any significant ask of the reader as a launch, prepare and put in the work. The big one that was like kind of an aha moment for me that I feel like should have been so obvious but wasn't is just like every launch should build momentum and anticipation and like should have this story arc this, you know, you're working towards the climax. You're not just like showing up and asking for something out of nowhere.
10:08.61
Andrew
You need to always remember that in your emails, even if you've like people signed up for your list and you tell them, remind them that you signed up for their list, they're still not going to remember who the fuck you are.
10:18.27
Sean
Yeah.
10:19.99
Andrew
And so you need to constantly remind people who you are and what you do and why.
10:20.09
Sean
Yeah.
10:24.23
Sean
Yeah, that was my, that was my God, that's so obvious moment.
10:27.27
Andrew
yeah That one was so obvious. And like, I thought I was doing a good job of that because I was like, I was like, oh yeah, I say you're getting this email because you signed up for the MetaMonster waiting list. But fucking nowhere did I say what MetaMonster does.
10:37.99
Sean
Yeah.
10:39.80
Andrew
What the hell, Andrew?
10:41.75
Sean
Are we amateurs? We are amateurs.
10:44.81
Andrew
Yeah.
10:45.81
Sean
Yeah.
10:47.72
Andrew
Alex had a lot of cool thoughts on like he basically called out my my benefits and was like, yeah, these kind of suck. like These are these aren't that great for the user.
10:56.19
Andrew
And I was like, he was way nicer about it than that. He didn't say it like that. But he was basically like, yeah, I'm calling bullshit, dude.
10:59.87
Sean
Yeah.
11:03.27
Andrew
These aren't that beneficial to your users. And I'm like, yeah, you're right.
11:06.29
Sean
Yeah.
11:08.43
Andrew
Fuck.
11:08.79
Sean
Yeah.
11:09.80
Andrew
And so a big part of what he said too was like, try to provide immediate value to people wherever you can.
11:14.95
Sean
So what do you think, what do you, what do you think is like a legitimate real like benefit and value add?
11:15.27
Andrew
And I think...
11:21.33
Sean
Because we we get the same problem with our clients where I asked them like, what's the offer?
11:21.68
Andrew
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
11:25.69
Sean
Like they want to do a campaign. They want to do an ad and and I always go like, cool. What's the offer? What are we going to do? And they're always like, it's a free trial. They get to try out the thing. Like that's, that's not an offer.
11:36.55
Sean
That's work. That's a chore. so yeah, what's yours?
11:38.52
Andrew
Yeah.
11:41.21
Andrew
So his recommendation was like, basically do some like mini consulting for them for free. like, you know, offer to analyze their webpage, like do an SEO audit for them or something like that.
11:55.92
Andrew
I think that works better if we aren't targeting freelancers, like in agencies, like freelancers and agencies, I i think are usually more interested in, you know,
11:56.08
Sean
Mm. Right.
12:07.97
Andrew
you know, they're less interested in SEO for their site than they are their clients.
12:09.84
Sean
Yep. Another client.
12:14.85
Andrew
So, but the idea was like, is there some way you can consult with them?
12:13.70
Sean
Mm.
12:20.39
Andrew
I've seen people do like guides. I think part of this is part of why I'm struggling with this piece of the advice is a lot of imposter syndrome and SEO, because I'm not truly an SEO expert.
12:30.59
Andrew
I haven't run an SEO agency before. I'm feeling a lot of like, Oh, what do I have to really offer people? And so I think that the answer is either like try to create, like do the work, and like do the learning ah ah to create something of value. like One of the the areas I'm thinking about taking a lot of our marketing is is like, okay, I'm not going to be able to really teach people about SEO beyond the basics. So I'll talk a little bit about like what I'm learning about SEO. I'll try to do some learning in public kind of stuff around SEO for people who are like
13:09.85
Andrew
yeah even more new to SEO than I am. But for the agency owners, the the experts, I'm not going to be able to know more than them, and I don't want to fake it. But maybe I can bring my technical knowledge to to bear. And so maybe what I need to do is do a crash course in AI and get good at like prompt engineering and AI systems and teach ah ah SEOs how to like use those and how to understand those. So that's an area I'm thinking of and so you could maybe develop like a prompt engineering guide or you could do a consultation where it's like hey I'll
13:46.96
Andrew
you I'll give you five ideas for how you can use AI systems to streamline things within your agency and I'll like, I don't know, there's it's still just a kernel of an idea, like I don't think that itself is good. The other thing I've thought about is like trying to find some way to draw on my agency expertise to be like, you know maybe I could do a review of the positioning for your agency or or yeah like a coaching call where we talk about the yeah whatever your biggest challenge in your agency is right now.
14:22.11
Sean
Mm hmm.
14:23.39
Andrew
I think the tough part there is then I've got to sell people on my background and like educate them on why I am a good person to do that.
14:25.87
Sean
Yeah.
14:31.73
Andrew
which like I do more of that. I've done more of that type of stuff typically through my personal site and my personal brand. And so I don't know how portable that is. Yeah, those are kind of my two thoughts is like maybe I can help people with like agency positioning, agency growth. Maybe I can help people with like the intersection of ah ah SEO and AI or SEO and technology of some sort.
14:57.55
Sean
I think, I mean, great questions for Alex, first of all. I'm jealous that you'll be interviewing him next week.
15:02.05
Andrew
Yeah.
15:04.37
Sean
will be in his in his city, unfortunately, and missing out on it, but...
15:12.80
Sean
but my My gut reaction is like the agency stuff is non-related to the product.
15:15.13
Andrew
The
15:19.86
Sean
like like there's like There's plenty of design agencies and product design agencies and then there's going to be SEO agencies and then I wonder how much of your earth your imposter syndrome will also so just come up when it comes to talking to an SEO agency.
15:19.98
Andrew
product
15:32.10
Sean
because The deliverables and the actions and all that sort of stuff is the model is seemingly different than like what we've done I don't know. i don't I don't know. I don't run like a like an organic traffic agency necessarily but
15:47.96
Andrew
Yeah. And I wouldn't, I i don't think I'd try to advise them advise anyone on like deliverables or how to do deliver the SEO work, but I think, you know, I can talk to people about.
15:58.54
Andrew
know, account management versus project management. And I can talk to people about agency positioning.
16:02.51
Sean
That's fair. Yeah.
16:05.71
Andrew
And I can talk to people about, you know, the pros and cons of retainers versus project based pricing. And I can talk to there's like a lot of stuff that I think is is more specific to service businesses than than it is to
16:12.70
Sean
Fair.
16:22.90
Sean
Yeah.
16:23.35
Sean
Well, I think the beauty of both of these offers is that you could just offer both at the same time and just let them pick whatever it's not like it has to be. I mean, you're giving it away anyway. So.
16:32.98
Andrew
Yeah, and and i I think they're probably neither one is quite right.
16:38.19
Sean
Yeah.
16:39.41
Andrew
But there's, that's like where my head went first is like, you know, some sort of like technology consulting, or some sort of
16:51.10
Andrew
Technology consulting or or some sort of technology, like AI guide or AI like mini info product kind of thing.
16:55.56
Sean
Mm hmm.
16:59.80
Sean
Yeah.
17:00.58
Andrew
Or some sort of agency. Yeah, agency advice.
17:05.37
Sean
Yeah. an idea for you is, um, this is like in my friend David, uh, SEO guy, who I have this intro you do for like a user interview, but, was saying like, meta monsters sounded interesting because of the fact that like, once you have like a thousand pages, you don't know which one you don't, you don't like prioritize.
17:11.24
Andrew
Yeah, hit
17:19.46
Andrew
Mm hmm.
17:31.43
Sean
You don't know how, like, which ones you should fix first like besides obviously your homepage but you don't know if it's supposed to be your blog like whichever blog page should kind of improve or have better things and I wonder if there's like a like I think you could look at a Google Analytics dashboard or like learn how to do this too but like look at it look at their search console get an understanding of their so One of their sites even live on the call with them and like help them figure out and prioritize Which ones are the ones that fix and then you could even give them the first one or two for free with meta mods there Could be interesting as well in house, yeah Yeah
18:04.92
Andrew
Yeah, again, my concern with that with like, and is is this guy an agency owner or is he doing SEO like in the house? Yeah, yeah, I think that works really well for in house I think it works it breaks down for like agencies or freelancers. But yeah, I think in house, you can do more of the like, and one of the things that I ah ah definitely want to do for meta monster eventually is like,
18:30.91
Andrew
as part of prospecting or something, ah you got to be careful with this kind of stuff. It can come across as douchey or annoying. But like if there's some way to be like, hey, I plugged your site into MetaMonster, and here's what I found. You want to jump on a call, and we can like walk through this together? And I can show you how to fix it? or something like that.
18:53.45
Sean
Yeah.
18:54.39
Andrew
like I think think there's something there of like using the tool to show people the value of the tool.
19:02.12
Sean
Yeah, I think so. I mean, yeah.
19:07.02
Sean
That sort of like buts sort of like forward deployed like field engineering or customer and so implementation thing is like i mean that's what Stripe did.
19:18.10
Sean
Apparently, according to the Twitter feed, I saw that today. But it's also what Palantir does. It's what all the AI companies do right now. is like There's a customer success engineer called a forward deployed engineer who just goes in.
19:29.28
Andrew
hu
19:30.76
Sean
literally flies out and is like a staff all goes in and implements the tool for them, teaches them how to use it and then diffs out after the engagement.
19:34.44
Andrew
Huh.
19:38.85
Sean
But I mean, that level of enterprise support is sort of is nice and helps solve a lot of issues. Yeah.
19:48.26
Andrew
Cool. Cool, cool, cool.
19:49.89
Sean
Yeah, service as software. No, that's not what that is.
19:52.95
Andrew
Yeah.
19:53.67
Sean
Yeah, tech enabled service, tech enabled service.
19:54.70
Andrew
Something like that. Yeah.
19:57.69
Sean
Yeah, I mean, i'm I'm super curious to see what Alex says too.
20:00.50
Andrew
Yeah, yeah, I am too.
20:00.56
Sean
I feel like he's going to drop something thing and um we're both going to be like, God damn it.
20:06.13
Andrew
Yeah, i've so I've been. Ever since Alex dropped this on me, which, by the way, this was an amazing sales and marketing in like.
20:17.09
Andrew
effort for Alex because I immediately went and dropped $150 on stacking the bricks products and like have q you know have tweeted a bunch of times about how much I've been learning from Alex and Amy and stacking the bricks.
20:23.62
Sean
Yeah. Yeah.
20:31.89
Andrew
So So ah hopefully it's been worth his time to to do this.
20:36.23
Sean
i I am very inspired by his indie haul thing also.
20:42.76
Andrew
Oh, yeah, his his co-working space that he and like community that he runs in Philadelphia.
20:43.45
Sean
Yeah. Mm hmm.
20:47.82
Sean
Yeah, yeah, that's sick. That's so cool.
20:49.33
Andrew
Yeah, it's super cool. Reminds me a lot of my friends in Columbia who started they started a co-working space called Soko that was like far in a way the best co-working community I've ever been a part of. It made it like always barely broke even like it was not profitable, but it was just like a labor of love and one of the coolest parts about working in Columbia.
20:59.27
Sean
Gotcha. Okay.
21:12.02
Sean
but There was one in Michigan as well that I went to, I was telling you about. I'm forgetting to name it.
21:17.73
Andrew
Oh yeah, you did mention that, the one in Ann Arbor.
21:18.55
Sean
oh yeah yeah yeah forgetting what it's called i think it's i feel like it's cahoots i could be wrong i'm pretty sure it's good yeah maybe it's not
21:27.57
Andrew
That's a cool name. It's a very cool name. Maddie and one of our friends went to, there's some new space in Detroit that's like an old house that someone has converted into like a cafe and coworking space. But I think it's like women only.
21:45.93
Andrew
And so they went, and it was like free to go and hang out and and work from there. You could like buy things from the cafe. But it's like it doesn't sound like it's primarily set up as a cafe.
21:56.97
Andrew
It sounds like it's a co-working space that has a cafe. And it's like free to float. I don't know. It sounded really cool.
22:05.36
Sean
That sounds pretty dope.
22:06.84
Andrew
Yeah.
22:08.06
Sean
I feel like that's the my... I think that's my endgame goal, by the way. Is to run like a community hub space, third place, all that stuff.
22:12.17
Andrew
Build a cafe.
22:15.00
Andrew
Yeah.
22:16.40
Sean
It's called work and tile, by the way.
22:16.66
Andrew
Yeah.
22:17.66
Sean
Not cahoots.
22:18.00
Andrew
Work in tile. OK, cool.
22:19.03
Sean
Yeah, yeah.
22:19.51
Andrew
Yeah. I used to dream about buying an old house and turning it into like a hacker house, like I'm sure a bunch of people have, like, you know, give create a safe space for like young founders to come and hang out and like and just like collaborate together and get to know each other and, you know, build cool stuff.
22:30.76
Sean
Yeah. Hmm.
22:37.29
Sean
Yeah, I don't want young founders in mine. They can go to yours, I don't want young i i don't want children in my thing. i want It's just a place for me and my friends to fuck everyone else. It's just my house.
22:46.43
Andrew
More like more 3-1-3 vibes. Or no, not 3-1-3. What's a Casey Neistat's thing in 3-6?
22:53.23
Sean
Oh.
22:55.21
Andrew
No. What is it?
22:57.12
Sean
368, 368.
22:57.39
Andrew
It's 3-6-8. That's what it is. yeah Yeah.
22:59.74
Sean
Yeah.
22:59.80
Andrew
Yeah.
23:00.96
Sean
Yeah.
23:01.43
Andrew
Yeah. There's also, I feel like there's a guy in Toronto building something like that.
23:06.44
Sean
Nice.
23:11.81
Andrew
ah
23:12.67
Sean
That's pretty cool.
23:13.87
Andrew
It's really fucking cool.
23:13.98
Sean
That's pretty.
23:16.51
Andrew
So I thought I'd talk real quick about like what I'm doing with Alex's advice ahead of talking to Alex next week.
23:20.43
Sean
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
23:23.61
Andrew
So we'll we'll see what he thinks of this next week.
23:23.88
Sean
Good.
23:26.95
Sean
Yep.
23:28.23
Andrew
but So the the first thing I tackled this week was our homepage. So I've totally revamped our homepage. Following their course landing pages that sell, which is this strongly advocates for going with the like narrative style long form sales letter approach. it's a much more content heavy homepage now.
23:49.73
Andrew
Austin gave me some some great feedback on the design. So I had like started to lay out the content and it was looking awful. And then Austin gave was like, change this, this and this. And it was suddenly like, holy shit, this looks so much better.
24:03.57
Andrew
but Like literally just like increase the text size and padding on everything.
24:11.05
Sean
Designers.
24:11.80
Andrew
Yeah.
24:11.89
Sean
I can't live with them. Can't live with without them. Sorry, go ahead.
24:16.27
Andrew
so I'm feeling pretty good about that. There's still a couple of tweaks I want to make to it. I want to make our, I want to make our video more prominent. so I want to add video and screenshots like between the hero and the like first pain section. and then I want to add a little.
24:38.08
Andrew
section with some logos of like of alternatives on the section that says current tools are too manual and unreliable and then like link out to our alternative pages.
24:54.56
Andrew
And then then I think i'll I'll be feeling pretty good about about this homepage. Although, again, we'll see what Alex has to say about it. So i I've been working on that. And then I've been trying to just figure out like trying to rethink our marketing approach. And I really feel like where I've landed on the marketing side of things is like think I was getting really worked up about needing conversions sooner than we really need conversions. Like I think I need to spend more time building that anticipation and just like learning and educating and worry about like converting later. Like I sort of forced this like half ass launch and then I was looking at Alex's advice and I was like, okay, I can either go back and like try to launch again better
25:47.94
Andrew
But I was like, I don't actually think we need to launch yet. I think if we'd be better off building anticipation and just like just share, just fucking share what we're doing, share what we're working on, share what we're learning, write some educational stuff, you know, like.
26:05.24
Andrew
I am getting to the point where I know more about a bunch of SEO tools that exist that a bunch of people don't know exist and like how they work. And so you know start sharing some of that stuff. And then you know get ready to launch later. And then I'll have some content to draw into when we launch. so Yeah. And then once I started fleshing out all the things I wanted to like create from a more of a content marketing approach, it was like, I went from feeling like I didn't have enough to do to feeling like I had way too much to do. Like I've got,
26:42.13
Andrew
in my marketing backlog right now, uh, I've got a bunch of like at least six blog posts or content pages I want to create. And then I've got a free tool I want to create.
26:53.63
Andrew
And then, you know, it's just like, I, there's plenty to do here. Just go fucking do it and stop working and worrying about converting people. Just, just go do, do the stuff, share it with people and like, come back to conversions later.
27:04.20
Sean
Yeah.
27:09.74
Andrew
So.
27:10.91
Sean
Yeah, I mean, I think that my feeling from reading Alex's blog or Alex's roast of the launch was a feeling of like. It was like a feeling of hope because it didn't feel like all was lost anymore because it was like, oh, there's actually like, like you did, you know, five things and the five things didn't work and now we're sad.
27:31.08
Sean
And now Alex was like, actually, there's 500 other things you could be doing.
27:35.05
Andrew
Yeah.
27:35.08
Sean
And that I think was a good feeling to like vicariously feel.
27:38.61
Andrew
And the five things you did, you didn't do well. So if you go and do them well, you might get drastically different results.
27:41.23
Sean
True, true. Yeah.
27:45.14
Andrew
This is one of the tricky parts about the marketing piece of early stage product development is like so often early stage founders aren't that good at marketing.
27:45.34
Sean
Yeah.
27:55.01
Andrew
And so you don't really know, does this channel not work or am I just bad at this channel?
28:00.15
Sean
Is this a skill issue?
28:03.77
Andrew
Yeah, think that's happening a lot with AI right now too.
28:04.69
Sean
Yeah.
28:07.01
Andrew
like I think a lot of people like try cursor and are like, oh, cursor is useless. And the claim is that it's a skill issue, not a cursor is useless issue.
28:18.00
Andrew
don't know if that's actually true. I haven't used cursor enough to know. But I think a lot of AI tools are still like have a pretty steep learning curve.
28:27.00
Sean
I think it is the I think I think with cursor like having used it now and having used bolt and everything it is a expectation mismatch right there's people who don't know how to code who like go to cursor and like oh this is gonna build like everything for me and then there's like really great people who like well like great devs who use cursing like oh this is useless like Or like it's not yeah like like the actual chat feature is not super useful because it's wrong and and gives me bad code and stuff.
28:55.27
Sean
But like you have to know that you're using an AI developer development So you have to like change the way you do the thing, too.
28:57.19
Andrew
Mm hmm.
29:02.22
Sean
So like there's been more and more people talking about how you use Cursor or Bolt, you should make like a fyi.markdown file and like log all the decisions the AI is making in there and have the AI reference those decisions every single time, for example.
29:16.03
Sean
And all these other things to kind of work along, it's just a different workflow, so.
29:21.33
Andrew
Yeah, you have to do a lot of context setting and like like give it guidelines and stuff, almost like you're training a junior dev.
29:23.79
Sean
Right.
29:28.94
Sean
And you also have to know that, like, you have to know that it's going to make these files, so you have to go and adjust the architecture to make sense for the way it's going to develop, because, yeah.
29:39.73
Andrew
Yeah.
29:41.70
Andrew
And that's kind of what I mean. like All of that stuff is is learning curve, skill.
29:46.10
Sean
Yeah.
29:46.75
Andrew
And yeah, I'm curious.
29:49.78
Sean
no
29:50.38
Andrew
like It's still hard for me to tell if like the payoff of doing all those things is really worth the work yet, if people are just claiming it is.
30:01.32
Andrew
But I feel like there's enough people I trust saying that they're getting a lot of value out of Cursor that that for some people it is is really valuable.
30:06.42
Sean
Yeah. Yeah.
30:12.07
Andrew
Yeah, so that's kind of where I'm at. I'm just going to Yeah, for right now, my plan is to create content, yeah keep my ads running, maybe spend a little bit of time tweaking the copy on those to match the new homepage copy.
30:29.39
Andrew
I'm probably going to hold off on doing much with cold email for right now until I yeah i might try it out again once we have a product I can do some stuff with.
30:39.52
Sean
Hmm.
30:41.41
Andrew
and And then, but really focus for right now is going to be like creating some of this content that I want to create, you know, sharing the progress as we're building the tool and like the decisions we're making and how we're thinking about stuff and, and then go from there.
30:59.36
Sean
Cool. Well, I look forward to Alex repeating your part next week and listening to it.
31:00.41
Andrew
Yeah.
31:04.71
Sean
so yeah. speaking of blue sky roast roast, if you go to, have you tried your blue sky roast dot.com?
31:13.47
Andrew
No, what's that?
31:14.72
Sean
you, uh, it's the cool hot thing that everybody's doing where you go to blue sky roast.com and you put your thing in and it basically roast your profile. more importantly, if you go to blue sky roast.com, you may see.
31:28.38
Sean
You may see someone's name there.
31:28.59
Andrew
Oh, yeah, must see profiles.
31:31.53
Sean
Yeah.
31:34.06
Sean
Hell yeah.
31:34.80
Andrew
How did you get a must see profile?
31:34.82
Sean
There we go.
31:36.24
Andrew
Have you even tweeted anything?
31:37.11
Sean
Because I'm fucking famous, baby.
31:39.24
Andrew
Have you even tweeted anything?
31:41.08
Sean
No, yes, I mean, I'm out here skeeting. I'm out here skeeting. I'm out here. Shit, skeeting post ship. Yeah.
31:55.45
Sean
Yeah, I tweeted mine and tweeted my my seven-figure startup thing on BlueSky.
31:56.11
Andrew
I love it. I love to see it. All right, I'll repost you.
32:05.73
Sean
Thanks, thanks, thanks, thanks.
32:09.95
Andrew
Okay, all right.
32:10.72
Sean
I mean, I paid for it. That's how that's how I'm on there. I paid money.
32:13.14
Andrew
Oh, nice.
32:14.17
Sean
yeah i gave I gave the guy money to be on there. I'm on my
32:18.62
Andrew
Hey, sick. 85% authenticity, 70% thought leader, key topics, 90% SEO and marketing strategies, 75% personal stories and growth.
32:28.96
Sean
Is that you?
32:29.77
Andrew
Yeah.
32:30.52
Sean
Hell yeah.
32:31.11
Andrew
A charming blend of tech savviness and quirky candidness.
32:34.88
Sean
That's you.
32:36.33
Andrew
Andrew is here to make SEO cool again.
32:39.68
Sean
That's you.
32:42.08
Andrew
This is adorable. I love this.
32:44.92
Sean
I don't understand how the starter packs work at all and I'm not getting into any of them because I can't find people with them so this is my other way.
32:48.40
Andrew
Yeah. Okay. So one of the things I wanted to talk about, I actually think. I got really hyped up on starter packs and got excited.
32:59.29
Andrew
And I think starter packs are, they're not all bad, but they got way overhyped.
32:59.50
Sean
Yeah.
33:02.87
Sean
Yeah.
33:05.53
Andrew
And I just listened to Aaron Francis' podcast, mostly technical, and he and Ian Landsman got into this big argument over Blue Sky, and like it was very much like Twitter versus Blue Sky.
33:18.15
Andrew
And a lot of it was kind of silly. They made a lot of good points, both of them did. but I also felt like sometimes they weren't really hearing what the other one was saying and stuff. But I think one thing that Aaron got right, even though he didn't always frame it exactly right, is like starter packs are like a good incentive. They get you to a point where you've at least got a few followers and you can start to get some engagement on your posts.
33:43.47
Andrew
but they're they're all sugar no all sugar no vitamins no like because those people aren't following you because they like your content and engage in your content and you aren't gaining them because you're building habits of creating good compelling content and building skills of creating good compelling content and so like you're kind of short cutting your way to a following.
34:09.61
Andrew
And if you don't then have the skills and the habits to keep that following and grow it from there, it's going to be all vanity metrics and no real engagement.
34:11.81
Sean
Yep. Yep.
34:19.45
Andrew
And so like, I still think starter packs are good because they get people from zero to like some amount of following enough to feel that it feels worth it to invest in building the skills. But I think they have been way overhyped as a way to like grow a, like you can grow a following, but can you grow an engaged following?
34:42.87
Sean
Yeah.
34:44.03
Andrew
Not necessarily. And like, most importantly, you're not, you're not building your skills by using starter packs. You're just building your following numbers.
34:53.50
Sean
Yeah, I agree. I agree. yeah, I have zero engagement out of my 120 followers, but the only real engagement I've gotten is by tweeting like at, like replying to people's, uh, things and saying like either funny or smart things and getting a follow out of that.
35:11.76
Sean
yeah.
35:11.12
Andrew
Yeah.
35:12.00
Sean
So like Jason Cohen followed me the other day because I told him we sent people shirts.
35:12.12
Andrew
And I think.
35:14.88
Andrew
Oh, sick. Cool.
35:16.50
Sean
Yeah.
35:17.40
Andrew
Yeah.
35:17.44
Sean
Yeah.
35:17.56
Andrew
I mean, I think, I think that's like been an underrated strategy for a long time is just, it's time intensive, but just like hang out in the space and talk to people, interact with people.
35:29.86
Andrew
Like that's really where you make friends more than, more than anything else.
35:33.89
Sean
Yeah, I think, I mean, going back to this idea of like, like, it's just gotta be like you got to do the social part of social media, not the content marketer part of social media media.
35:41.96
Andrew
Yeah. That's a really good good way to frame it, yeah.
35:46.97
Sean
Yeah, which, you know, I think
35:47.96
Andrew
That would be a good skeet.
35:50.87
Sean
No, that's I'm copying other people's keeps. That's what everybody's saying right now. That's Jason was saying that some other person was saying this.
35:54.12
Andrew
Oh, OK.
35:56.07
Sean
They were they were saying how like they were saying how maybe maybe there is a good speed in there regardless.
35:56.56
Andrew
Oh, OK.
36:01.58
Sean
But they were saying how. uh like blue sky finally feels like so like actual social media because you have to be social on it and i think jason was complaining about how there's already like bots or whatever and saying like like please don't ruin this like thing like the point is not to the point is i don't know if it's jason or hank green or someone i don't know blue sky but
36:09.30
Andrew
Mm.
36:27.03
Sean
Yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you. I think started pack is a great way to find your initial people and like to find people that you probably will want to follow and want to engage with. yeah.
36:37.65
Andrew
Yeah, I have also noticed myself going back to Twitter a good bit because I don't feel like blue sky has quite hit critical mass yet.
36:43.03
Sean
Yeah.
36:47.59
Andrew
I know people say it has and it's definitely it's hit like niche critical mass, but like
36:53.71
Sean
yeah
36:55.04
Andrew
Most of my like sports people that I follow are still on Twitter. And a lot of the, like I feel like some of the like snarky, funny bootstrapper content hasn't made it over yet.
37:07.99
Sean
Yeah.
37:09.29
Sean
I mean, why would they? Why would they abandon their? Like, why would Peter levels really abandon his audience or Mark Lou or whatever?
37:13.50
Andrew
Yeah.
37:14.98
Sean
Right.
37:16.14
Andrew
And I don't know that I need Peter levels to come over. Like I get pretty tired of Peter levels content, but I want, you know, I want Daniel Zarek and I want, I want, I think it's pronounced John the felt founder.
37:19.38
Sean
For sure. Yeah. Yeah.
37:25.64
Sean
Hmm.
37:32.19
Andrew
CA in, okay.
37:31.06
Sean
Hmm.
37:34.30
Sean
I don't know. I know Felt. You mean the mapping company?
37:37.34
Andrew
Yeah. yeah
37:37.96
Sean
Yeah, yeah Felt's cool. i I use Felt for like, I don't know, to draw on a map sometimes. And then I think about how this company makes money. and
37:47.00
Andrew
the The founder, with along with one other guy, has have for a long time written one of my favorite newsletters called Margins.
37:55.25
Sean
I don't know.
37:55.40
Andrew
it's like It's one of my favorites because it's kind of critical of the tech industry. But from within the tech industry, it's really good.
38:01.80
Sean
Nice. Nice.
38:03.43
Andrew
I've always really loved loved it. Readmargins.com, I think.
38:05.84
Sean
Cool. Cool.
38:08.01
Andrew
Yeah.
38:10.52
Andrew
Cool. Anything else going on in your world, or you want to cut this one short? Keep it.
38:15.48
Sean
uh well i was gonna i was gonna run you through my thoughts about blue sky or or thoughts about myself because of triggered by blue sky sky um i don't know if we talked about this last time we had a podcast but it was basically just around the fact that like uh
38:16.05
Andrew
Keep it easy breezy.
38:20.35
Andrew
Okay, hit me with it. Okay.
38:33.74
Sean
because of blue sky and because it's a new social media thing and it's like all the like indie hacker community and and whatever and like the like the the spaces i'm interested in i fall into this really i felt i felt myself falling into this really weird thing i'm like oh i don't i don't know like which circles i really belong in because You know, I do the security stuff, but then it's like I'm interested in the indie hacking stuff, but I'm also interested in the design stuff. I'm also kind of interested in whatever sort of all these other things.
39:06.89
Sean
So I've finally spent more time thinking about like personal brand and stuff. I'm i'm on like a personal brand gig, I think, because I.
39:10.89
Andrew
Cool.
39:14.73
Sean
Because I am not doing like a sass thing at the moment, my brain has to go somewhere that isn't just the agency.
39:17.41
Andrew
Ooh, yeah. Yeah. I know the feel.
39:23.39
Sean
so yeah I'm gonna I'm gonna personal brand sort of thing that's why you see me on blue sky roast featured profile you know nothing to it and yeah and then I and then I rebuilt my personal site thanks
39:37.04
Andrew
Yeah, the personal site looks good. I love that you you launched the startup ideas idea that you've got that that up there.
39:43.83
Sean
thanks I'm gonna try to do it every I'm gonna try to release one every Sunday
39:46.90
Andrew
And then.
39:50.82
Andrew
Oh, cool. Love that. You seem like super a super fun thing to just write and release. Cool. Yeah, i I feel like Nat Eliason had a cool point of view once where he was basically like that weird conglomeration of things.
40:24.31
Andrew
ah
40:17.48
Sean
Yeah.
40:24.91
Sean
Hmm.
40:25.59
Andrew
interests and so if people follow you for that conglomeration of interests and like your thoughts and ideas on those things then it's going to be really hard for anyone to compete with that. It's basically saying like lean into what makes you you and like make that your brand. I feel like in practice it's hard to do that like it's hard to figure out how to make that turn that into like compelling copy to convince people to like sign up for a newsletter and it's hard to but maybe maybe the thing there is like it's harder to optimize like conversion rate optimize that sort of brand but it's it's got more longevity and that was the other I think his other point was
40:58.72
Sean
Yeah.
41:06.83
Andrew
If you just follow the things you're interested in, you'll have an easier time sticking with it versus if you try to force yourself to stay within one niche when it comes to like personal branding and writing and stuff, like follow your interests, which, you know, I think there's pros and cons to both.
41:24.99
Andrew
It definitely, know.
41:26.69
Sean
Yeah, I think it's like, it's like how you can be a relationship based creator versus a like algo based creator.
41:32.22
Andrew
Hmm.
41:32.63
Sean
And the algo place creators do grow in a more formulaic way, but are a dime a dozen. Whereas the relationship ones, it doesn't matter which platform they're on. They can just, they can leave and go to another platform.
41:43.23
Sean
The followers were all long, you know, it's the same idea of like engaged audience and all that stuff.
41:46.40
Andrew
come with.
41:49.22
Sean
So.
41:50.18
Andrew
Yeah, Aaron Francis is a perfect example, I guess, of the relationship-based creator and from what you're saying. And he had this great blog post that reputation is portable.
42:02.66
Sean
Yeah.
42:02.87
Andrew
like Even if followings aren't, your reputation is.
42:05.98
Sean
Yeah.
42:06.81
Andrew
It's a great, great way to frame it.
42:10.27
Sean
absolutely.
42:11.33
Andrew
Cool.
42:12.86
Sean
Okay.
42:13.26
Andrew
Yeah, your your site looks great. I'm excited that you you got it up and excited to convert you over to ghost.
42:15.41
Sean
Thanks.
42:21.48
Sean
Oh, yeah. Oh, oh, that's right. That's right. I was gonna talk about that. It is on ghost now.
42:27.80
Sean
It's okay, it's okay. There's no better option than Ghost, I think, if it comes to like a personal site like this.
42:36.44
Andrew
Yeah.
42:36.55
Sean
And I can see the merits of it over WordPress for sure.
42:41.60
Andrew
Yeah.
42:42.15
Sean
I can see how it's very geared towards some newsletter things. By the way, this is me switching off of ConvertKit and into Ghost and coming over over from ConvertKit, which gave you a creator profile, but the SEO just was not even remotely there.
42:56.21
Andrew
Yeah, I mean, there yeah they haven't really developed their like site building
42:56.33
Sean
for the cover kits and newsletter tool.
43:02.81
Sean
Right.
43:04.19
Andrew
they've They've kind of like half asked the site builder. It's just like, it's there if you need it, but it's not really core to their product yet. Although I wouldn't be surprised if that changes.
43:14.43
Sean
Yeah, me too, me too, me too. There's some really nice things about Ghost. The editor experience is not bad. I don't think it's that different, in my opinion, from the current WordPress Gutenberg editor.
43:25.50
Andrew
Hmm.
43:25.61
Sean
I haven't dug that deeply into it, so doing very basic writing-wise feels pretty similar. There are some nuances to Ghost that are really annoying. Editing the theme is so fucking annoying, and it made me really appreciative of Webflow.
43:37.11
Andrew
Yeah.
43:42.80
Sean
hands down, I think the fact that you can edit in a WYSIWYG way with Webflow, but in a clean code way and then attach a CMS to it still wins for me for client sites, but as opposed to the thing.
43:59.09
Andrew
I'm with you.
43:59.15
Sean
Yeah.
43:59.49
Andrew
like My experience with Astro and like trying these like Git-based CMSs and stuff, and like even when i'm not when it's not a Git-based CMS, I got used to building stuff on Webflow, and I miss being able to like not just see...
44:09.27
Sean
Hmm.
44:13.98
Andrew
like Obviously, I can make a change in code and hit refresh and like see it instantly, but I miss being able to like kind of fuck around with it
44:18.32
Sean
Right.
44:23.07
Sean
Right.
44:23.93
Andrew
is like see it truly instantly without the refresh and go like, Oh, nope. All right. Let me scale that up. Scale that down. Like, yeah.
44:32.02
Sean
Right.
44:33.75
Andrew
Webflow while it can be clunky at times.
44:39.56
Andrew
It's powerful, man. i'm I am becoming increasingly convinced, especially since I started digging into other CMSs and stuff to build the MetaMonster site, I'm becoming increasingly convinced that like if someone followed through on your Gutenflow idea and built like a ghost-level editor and like CMS experience, like a ghost WordPress-level CMS experience for Webflow, it would be such a winner.
45:09.08
Sean
Yeah, I think so. So, I'm kind of considering doing it. I'm kind of considering jumping back in. Mainly because, mainly because our agency, our clients at our agency also just need it because it's getting to a point where there are there are no editor positions, there's no editor permissions in Webflow.
45:22.01
Andrew
Yeah.
45:30.13
Andrew
Yeah.
45:30.25
Sean
And that is also killing some of it because like one of our largest clients they like we can they they have other agencies and these other agencies produce other types of content but I really don't want to give them the ability to publish to every single CMS as an editor and I really don't want to give them the ability to like because editor mode in Webflow also lets you just straight up edit things on the site and that is brutal as a as like the person who has the own this like the cleanliness of that site
45:53.47
Andrew
Yeah.
46:00.82
Sean
So I don't know. I might go and do it. I might make it happen. I might just fork.
46:08.11
Andrew
If you.
46:08.72
Sean
I might just fork coast.
46:11.47
Andrew
Honestly, yeah, like that that would be an interesting place to start is for Ghost and make a true like a version of Ghost that is headless by default or or built to plug into Webflow by default, and then ah supports multiple content types, multiple page types.
46:12.86
Sean
Yeah.
46:22.58
Sean
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah yeah we'll call it ghost ghost flow go glow glow yeah there we go yeah it's a cool name we call it air glow like the other the other idea i have on there okay you don't like it whatever okay i kind of like good and flow because it's such an ugly it's so it's so ugly
46:38.38
Andrew
Glow, just call it glow. That's a cool last name actually.
46:49.36
Andrew
I don't like air glow as much. I don't think you should, so I'm kind of against actually using words that are a part of other major brands.
47:03.59
Sean
it's very how That's very, WordPress of you to say that.
47:10.96
Andrew
Well, that's the thing. Like WordPress is such a dick ah ah about it. Like I wouldn't want to touch anything in the WordPress brand right now.
47:18.06
Sean
Yeah, I agreed.
47:19.15
Andrew
like, yeah, but, yeah, dude, if you do that one, you need to like finish it, not just start it.
47:28.30
Sean
Yeah, I know. I know.
47:32.24
Andrew
Cause I want it.
47:33.90
Sean
Me too.
47:33.97
Andrew
I'll be, I'll be customer number one on that.
47:36.98
Sean
yeah By the way, there is a there is a tool that does this.
47:36.97
Andrew
i'll i'll I'll move the MetaMonster website over to Webflow if if you build that for me.
47:44.40
Sean
It just is like way worse and like breaks.
47:46.29
Andrew
Yeah, i I think I've seen it before. And it's like trying to be like a content calendar, right?
47:51.29
Sean
Yeah, yeah, Yeah, yeah.
47:52.09
Andrew
And i'm like I don't want a fucking content calendar. I want a better CMS.
47:59.13
Sean
Okay, I gotta run. I gotta get a client call.
48:01.41
Andrew
All right, man.
48:01.79
Sean
I will see you later.
48:02.53
Andrew
Good chatting with you.
48:02.85
Sean
Happy Friday.
48:04.03
Andrew
Happy Friday.
48:04.21
Sean
Good to see you.
48:05.95
Andrew
Later.