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Chas:
Not only does it allow us to accept the mother's death, but it allows them to

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Chas:
really go for emotion because they've already taught us that throughout the

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Chas:
film, there will be these moments.

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Mel:
That is very interesting because when you told me to read them, you did not tell me why?

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Mel:
Hi, I'm Mel Killingsworth.

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Chas:
And I'm Chaz Fisher.

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Mel:
And welcome to Draft Zero, a podcast where three and recently temporarily two

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Mel:
Australian screenwriters try to figure out what makes great screenplays work.

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Chas:
And today, in today's episode, we are doing tonal shifts.

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Chas:
It is very much a continuation, and perhaps even the goal of two previous episodes

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Chas:
was to get to this very episode.

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Chas:
So the previous two episodes, which I believe were episode 105 and 106,

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Chas:
they were on establishing tone and we happened to look at two different groupings

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Chas:
of films and just quite by accident,

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Chas:
those two groupings of films, one was really great examples of establishing

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Chas:
tone through the action lines and the second one was establishing the tone through

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Chas:
the characters that you were presenting without doing much work in the action line.

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Chas:
So, those two episodes and this episode on tonal shifts is all about how to

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Chas:
replicate those things, tone, tonal shifts, on the page.

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Chas:
And specifically today, for this episode, we are looking at Shaun of the Dead,

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Chas:
written by Simon Pegg and Edgar Wright.

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Chas:
We are looking at Sorry to Bother You, written and directed by Boots Riley.

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Chas:
And we're looking at Swiss Army Man, written and directed by The Daniels.

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Chas:
Is it their film immediately prior to Everything Everywhere all at once?

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Mel:
Correct. It's their first feature.

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Chas:
And why are we doing this? I mean, first of all, we're doing this because Mel

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Chas:
requested it as one of the episodes.

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Chas:
But it was one that Stu actually feels grumpy about missing because it's been

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Chas:
on Stu and my list for quite some time.

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Chas:
I think Stu and I are attracted to films that successfully pull off tonal shifts

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Chas:
because I think there's a sort of pressure in Western cinematic storytelling to be monotonal,

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Chas:
that if you change tones, that's somehow a bad thing or doesn't fit or doesn't work.

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Chas:
And then you can see other cultures of storytelling, particularly I think of

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Chas:
East Asian storytelling cultures where...

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Chas:
It's almost expected.

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Mel:
Bollywood, baby.

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Chas:
Yeah.

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Mel:
Or Korean cinema, like K-horror.

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Chas:
Japanese.

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Mel:
Yeah, absolutely.

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Chas:
Yeah. So just want to take a moment to repeat what we sort of assessed tone

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Chas:
to be in the previous episode and then ask you, Mel, whether you agree,

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Chas:
disagree, have any other suggestions.

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Chas:
Stu came to tone as being like the rules of the story that you were telling,

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Chas:
separate to maybe the character rules or the world rules, but really the storytelling rules.

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Chas:
And he saw tone as quite linked to theme.

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Chas:
And that's because Stu takes a broader understanding of theme than I find useful

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Chas:
in my own work, even though he says his is the correct one.

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Chas:
And I found it more useful when talking about tone to actually,

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Chas:
and especially when we're going into this exercise, which is like, how is

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Chas:
the tone of these pieces replicated or not

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Chas:
on the script is for me to go how is

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Chas:
this story teaching us to understand it

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Chas:
so it is similar to stew's idea of rules but i think films and tv and all content

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Chas:
needs to teach us what its tone is so that we can enjoy it and understand it

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Chas:
in a certain way how do you feel about that mel i made you re-listen to a draft

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Chas:
zero episode as homework for this.

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Mel:
I think um to be very democrat both of you are right but uh i i think i would

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Mel:
describe it almost more as vibe and what's really interesting and obviously

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Mel:
we'll get into it but the script,

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Mel:
feels reading the script makes you feel a

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Mel:
certain way and there are certain

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Mel:
rules that some of these scripts do that then they change like

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Mel:
they might these scripts do one thing and it's

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Mel:
almost an unofficial way that they've set

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Mel:
you up and then when the tone shifts it might change

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Mel:
the way it's being written but not all scripts do that

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Mel:
like so scripts establish tones sometimes in

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Mel:
different ways depending on the writer but i think it's how it's trying to make

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Mel:
you feel and you have fewer tools on the page than you have on the screen yeah

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Mel:
and so how you're using those tools to give the reader a sense of what you're

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Mel:
feeling what i found really interesting and we did this very accidentally,

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Mel:
is that we picked three scripts written by their directors.

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Chas:
Well, you said it's accidental. It actually happened with every other script

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Chas:
that we've chosen in Exploring Tone. And I know we did it accidentally.

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Mel:
Karen Kusama didn't write the Yellow Jackets pilot, did she?

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Chas:
No, correct.

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Mel:
Anyway.

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Mel:
We went over several other scripts as potentials, not all of which were written by their directors.

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Mel:
But I do find it interesting in that if I do think some of these tonal shifts

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Mel:
we're going to look at, if they weren't planning on directing it,

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Mel:
they might have had to push a little harder.

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Chas:
Yeah, that's fair.

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Mel:
At certain things to make sure that it was clear to the reader that there's

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Mel:
going to be a tonal shift. But when in your head, you know what the emotional

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Mel:
shift is going to be, you don't have to signal the reader quite so hard.

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Chas:
I think that's fair. But I also think that because they're writer directors,

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Chas:
they're more confident in going, we know that we will be able to pull this off.

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Mel:
Absolutely.

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Chas:
And so there were possibly more tonal shifts in these pieces of work because

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Chas:
they're by writer directors.

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Mel:
And I also think that if you are an established writer-director and you know

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Mel:
that it's going to happen, you can kind of do one thing.

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Mel:
But there's also something to be said for, like what we talked about,

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Mel:
a lot of Western cinemas are afraid of massive tonal shifts, right?

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Mel:
There's maybe something also to be said for, you know how you want to direct

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Mel:
it, but you don't want to scare off your potential buyers by making too massive

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Mel:
of a tonal shift on the page.

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Mel:
But then when you actually direct it, it's a huge shift.

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Mel:
So there's something maybe pragmatic in pulling back just a little bit on the

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Mel:
page, knowing that in your head, it might be huge, but not wanting to, you know,

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Mel:
scare away any potential investors, producers, if you are trying to pitch and sell it.

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Mel:
So there's certainly a tightrope to be walked.

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Chas:
Yeah. And as always, Draft Zero is brought to you more often by our amazing patrons.

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Chas:
If you want more drafts here and more often please do join

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Chas:
our patrons but we polled them for previously did

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Chas:
extensive polling on unusual tones that's

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Chas:
how we came up with the previous two episodes homework we repeated it

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Chas:
again looking for shifts and patreon in particular calling out patron rye waters

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Chas:
who gave us the cohen's uh his he said take your pick but burn after reading

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Chas:
and i agree i think burn after reading is uh emblazoned in my mind and i think

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Chas:
there's a tonal shift in that.

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Chas:
He also mentioned Three Billboards Outside of Epic, Missouri and Banshees of Inner Sheeran.

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Chas:
And it was interesting for me listening back to that Banshees of Inner Sheeran

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Chas:
episode. I was like, we should come back to this as an example of changing tone. And we haven't done it.

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Chas:
Maybe we'll do it in the future. But I quite like the examples that we've chosen

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Chas:
as being different from things that we've explored before.

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Chas:
And you and I were both super keen to do everything everywhere all at once.

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Chas:
And Stu, I feel, kept gently nudging us away from a film that we've done.

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Chas:
A whole podcast episode on even though

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Chas:
it had nothing to do with tone and also

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Chas:
like to call our patron jen jen schubert

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Chas:
who for our was a big supporter

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Chas:
of our last episode the writing physical comedy and she it's in the show notes

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Chas:
to that episode but she referenced the every frame a painting video essay on

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Chas:
edgar wright's directing of physical comedy and i think that is what resurfaced in my mind,

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Chas:
Shaun of the Dead and one of my favorite all-time movies to discuss for tonal shifts.

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Mel:
What a great setup to our lead-in.

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Chas:
I know, but as always, I'm just going to squish it a bit because I do want to,

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Chas:
when we were prepping for this episode, I want to distinguish between genre

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Chas:
shifts and tonal shifts because I do think they're two separate but deeply related things.

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Mel:
They're separate things that can definitely happen at the same time.

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Chas:
I think most genres, you can

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Chas:
have different tones right you can have comic horror and

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Chas:
bleak horror and gory horror or with any particular genre you can have lots

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Chas:
of tones but sue and i often come back to that switch and we did it for midpoints

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Chas:
where alien stops being a sci-fi film where there's lots of awe and dread well.

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Mel:
It doesn't stop it,

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Mel:
shifts what it is primarily.

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Chas:
Being yes into.

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Mel:
Uh into that being like a secondary or tertiary type of.

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Chas:
But in that so it's it shifts from i would

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Chas:
say being a science fiction film to

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Chas:
being a horror film almost you know yes it's a horror

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Chas:
film in space it's jaws in space blah blah blah but the first half of that is

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Chas:
not a horror film i don't think it there's lots of unease and and dread and

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Chas:
paranoia but there's also lots of awe and you know establishing of characters

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Chas:
and theme and all that other kind

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Chas:
of stuff and so when the the genre shift happens there is also a big tone,

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Chas:
shift as well i think and.

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Mel:
I think we've picked three films that none of them shift genre.

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Chas:
At the point where.

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Mel:
They shift tone.

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Chas:
And i think i'm really excited to explore that because i think we were wanting

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Chas:
to look at everything everywhere all at once and i think nearly all of the tonal

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Chas:
shifts in that film are attached to genre shifts as well not not for or.

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Mel:
At least stylistic shifts yes if not genre shifts because i think that's a third thing yet again.

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Chas:
Sure which.

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Mel:
Is something one of the reasons i wanted to do this episode is i'm writing

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Mel:
a feature film script which shifts into

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Mel:
types of scenes quite often where sometimes you you have a scene where someone's

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Mel:
imagining something and then there's a shift into slapstick and then there's

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Mel:
a shift into like a mini time travel and then there's a shift into a flashback

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Mel:
and some of those things don't necessarily shift genre but they almost all shift style and tone.

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Chas:
And.

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Mel:
So everywhere everything everyone wants does that whereas these if you're looking

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Mel:
at something that does it more subtly you can always key it up.

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Chas:
Sometimes it's.

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Mel:
Harder to figure out how to dial it back.

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Chas:
Yeah i agree with you i i feel

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Chas:
that it's harder to perhaps have a tonal shift where you're not changing genre

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Chas:
and i don't mean hard is not quite the right word but when you have a genre

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Chas:
shift it's going to be very hard to maintain the same tone i think it's almost

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Chas:
inherent that there'll be maybe as you say there'll be a style shift because.

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Mel:
Genres have a prevailing tone.

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Chas:
Right like.

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Mel:
We were talking about horror that has a prevailing tone that is very different than comedy.

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Chas:
Yeah and like promising young woman when we were talking about the rom-com side

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Chas:
to the you know the i guess serial killer psycho thriller stalker

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Chas:
side they swapped genres did they change tones i don't want to end up using

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Chas:
promising young woman as like the polarizing example for like every episode

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Chas:
of draft zero from here until eternity for listeners benefit mel is leaning

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Chas:
back in her chair arms crossed ready with like this.

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Mel:
Is a whole back matter episode we need to have this entire other argument.

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Chas:
Because you can also argue if.

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Mel:
You argue it didn't would you argue it should have and that.

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Chas:
Would have made it a better film and maybe its message.

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Mel:
Would have been a little clearer.

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Chas:
And perhaps sometimes deciding.

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Mel:
To do something that is interesting tonally undercuts your entire thesis and

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Mel:
maybe you're unaware of it if you were for example not a great writer but a good director.

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Chas:
I don't know one might argue but

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Chas:
that is a totally separate topic i mean that that

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Chas:
is how i felt coming out of banshees of in

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Chas:
a sharon a movie that i found incredibly moving and

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Chas:
powerful i still you could hear it in that tone episode

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Chas:
I still don't have a grip on what it was trying

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Chas:
to say and she was like well it's an

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Chas:
analogy for the Irish Civil War I'm like well that's overtly

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Chas:
in the background but I feel like the film is about more than that but I couldn't

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Chas:
grasp onto whatever it was that it was trying to explore like it wasn't just

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Chas:
about the Irish Civil War it surely is about how that is reflective of something

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Chas:
today but I couldn't quite figure that out and I had a similar reaction to Seven Psychopaths as well.

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Chas:
Whereas for me, in Bruges and Three Billboards Outside of Ebbing,

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Chas:
Missouri, I got much clearer, I guess, themes coming from them.

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Chas:
Anyway, let's get into Shaun of the Dead.

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Excerpts:
Do you ever think that modern life is not for you do you do the same dead-end

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Excerpts:
job every day is your love life,

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Excerpts:
Baby, you're not alone. Piss it.

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Chas:
One of my all-time favourite films, written and directed by Simon Pegg and Edgar Wright.

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Chas:
Shaun of the Dead was described by Simon Pegg and Edgar Wright,

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Chas:
I remember, as a Zomromcom.

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Chas:
It is a romantic comedy set up during a zombie apocalypse.

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Chas:
So, the way that I thought we would tackle these is we would discuss what we

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Chas:
thought the tones of the film are.

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Chas:
We discuss what we think the shifts are and then get into the

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Chas:
pages to see like the homework was read

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Chas:
the first five pages to try and see how the writers

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Chas:
are establishing those tones what tools they may or may not

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Chas:
be using because you're right mel they're not

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Chas:
using necessarily all the tools that their availability so

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Chas:
it's worth seeing what they are using to establish tone and then seeing how

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Chas:
they may or may not be shifting that but um i feel like there's going to be

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Chas:
a couple of back and forths here and I suspect one of them is you telling me

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Chas:
that it wasn't a tonal shift at all.

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Chas:
So, Shaun of the Dead is a very, very funny film.

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Chas:
It's a lot of rapid-fire jokes and visual jokes and quick editing and it works,

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Chas:
I think, so well because it treats the violence as definitely like funny.

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Chas:
You are supposed to laugh when a lot of people get dismembered and

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Chas:
a lot of the gags are when the

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Chas:
zombies die or don't die or kill some of

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Chas:
the friends off they are funny but the

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Chas:
moment that struck me is there in the film and I still remember

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Chas:
it often is the moment where Sean has to his mom's been bitten she has died

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Chas:
and she's come back as a zombie and he has to shoot her and in my memory it's

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Chas:
a really powerful moment and it's so powerful because in my memory they take

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Chas:
that moment super seriously.

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Chas:
And then it was interesting on my rewatch now, there is a period where they

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Chas:
do take it super seriously, but it is surrounded by a barrage of gags as well.

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Mel:
I think it's like I picked the other two films that I really wanted to lean into.

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Mel:
I'd seen all three of these before, but I didn't revisit any of them before

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Mel:
I suggested them, neither the script nor the films.

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Mel:
And so it was really interesting saying, I, in my head, already know which...

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Mel:
Tonal shift I think is going to be, or in one case, I think there's only one

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Mel:
major tonal shift in the thing and then revisiting it going,

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Mel:
was I right? Were there more?

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Mel:
Was it as big as I thought it was? You know, sometimes there's such a huge emotional

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Mel:
impact that you might overstate how big the tonal shift is in memory,

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Mel:
et cetera. And so this was fascinating revisit.

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Chas:
Yeah. And for each of these, I did watch the film again and then went to the scripts.

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Chas:
So that may color this exercise in some way.

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Mel:
I went the opposite way.

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Chas:
Okay, great. Well, hopefully we come to different observations at that point.

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Chas:
So, the first five pages of Shaun of the Dead are predominantly dialogue.

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Chas:
Shaun and Liz are at the Winchester, the pub where the entire third act of the film happens,

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Chas:
and the Winchester is also the source of both the location of Ed and Shaun's

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Chas:
love for each other, but also the source of conflict between Sean and Liz.

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Chas:
And they are at the Winchester, apparently on a date, but there's two visual

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Chas:
gags revealing that they're talking about the issues of their friends being involved.

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Chas:
And then first of all, they reveal that Ed is there, and then they keep discussing,

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Chas:
and then they reveal, after talking about Liz's friends, Daphs and Diane,

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Chas:
that they are there with two wonderful whip pans.

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Excerpts:
It's not that I don't like Ed. Ed, it's not that I don't like you. It's alright.

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Excerpts:
Just be nice if we could. Fuck. It's been a bit more time together. Bullets.

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Excerpts:
Just the two of us. Cock it. It's just with Ed here, it's no wonder I always

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Excerpts:
bring my flatmates out, and then that only exacerbates things. What do you mean?

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Excerpts:
Well, you guys hardly get on, do you?

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Excerpts:
No, what does exacerbate mean? It means, um, to make things worse. Right.

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Excerpts:
Well, I mean, it's not that I don't like David and Di, you know?

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Excerpts:
Guys, it's not that I don't like you. It's not that.

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Mel:
And they're both, the way that they're framed also is in between them,

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Mel:
so literally coming, you see them, and then it jumps back to a wide shot,

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Mel:
and then it frames them all with their friends standing in between them, essentially.

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Chas:
Yeah. And referring to the page, they do have the we reveal Ed right next to

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Chas:
them, playing a horror-themed fruit machine.

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Chas:
We reveal David and Diane. And so, some of the physical gags are on the page,

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Chas:
but most of these pages are dialogue.

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Chas:
And where there is big print, there's not a lot of gags in the big print.

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Chas:
The big print is there often to facilitate the gags that come in dialogue.

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Chas:
Like, is it necessary to know where we're looking or what the focus is or the

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Chas:
perspective is so that a gag can work in dialogue?

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Chas:
Would that be fair? Did you get a lot of tone from the big print?

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Mel:
I didn't really. I think I got most of it from the dialogue,

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Mel:
but also there were a couple of points. And I read all of all three scripts.

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Mel:
And I thought that Shaun of the Dead in particular sets up a lot of the sight

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Mel:
gags that only work where the sight gags fall in the dialogue.

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Mel:
And it does that in the very first scene as well.

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Mel:
It also had cut quite a bit. So it made it a bit shorter.

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Mel:
The opening scene is now a bit snappier. And I thought that worked.

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Mel:
Was more about establishing the relationship between these four people.

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Chas:
Yeah um.

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Mel:
And how they how they fit into each other and then how they feel about each other.

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Chas:
Yeah i mean so what does it establish on

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Chas:
the page it establishes you know rapid

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Chas:
fire comedy and there's some

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Chas:
suggestion of the visual gags so the through the

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Chas:
reveals but not as much as they the sort

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Chas:
of match frame like the fact that it opens on Sean

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Chas:
staring straight down the barrel and

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Chas:
on the page it's Sean stares blankly into space and

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Chas:
there's to me there's a big tonal difference between

302
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Chas:
Sean staring straight at us versus staring

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Chas:
blankly into space so you know

304
00:20:13,340 --> 00:20:16,380
Chas:
a lot of the style directorial style of Edgar Wright is not

305
00:20:16,380 --> 00:20:19,320
Chas:
necessarily on the page and look it is setting

306
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Chas:
up that it is about these characters and the the

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Chas:
relationship conflicts between them but there's

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Chas:
very little setup as to like there's

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Chas:
not a cold open with a zombie killing so we

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00:20:30,980 --> 00:20:34,840
Chas:
we're not being taught in these opening five pages we're

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Chas:
being taught that this is a comedy but we're not going to be taught what the

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00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:42,420
Chas:
reaction to violence is and this is going to be my my big takeaway from this

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Chas:
because uh i i wrote mel message like all right your homework will be first

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Chas:
five pages and then these three or four pages where the mother is shot and then I watched it.

315
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Chas:
And I'm like, I'd also like you to read these two pages and these four pages over here.

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Chas:
Because what I found was that the film actually does breadcrumb these quiet,

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Chas:
non-humorous, emotional punches and they escalate throughout the film such that

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Chas:
I think not only does it allow us to accept the mother's death,

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Chas:
but it allows them to really go for emotion because they've already taught us

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Chas:
that throughout the film there will be these moments.

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Mel:
That is very interesting because when you told me to read them,

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Mel:
you did not tell me why you told me one of them was to be in contrast.

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Mel:
You said these read these two pages.

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Mel:
I think it contrasts. And again,

325
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Mel:
I read the whole script, but really concentrating on these sections.

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Mel:
And then you didn't tell me why the others. And I actually have a note for one

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Mel:
of them like, but this is similar. This is very much the same.

328
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Mel:
What do you mean? This is different, even though it comes, you know, like 40 pages prior.

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Mel:
So if you're saying that that is there to sort of be, you know,

330
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Mel:
a number nine on the emotional scale and then let mom's death hit as a number

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Mel:
10, then that makes a lot more sense in terms of the tone.

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Chas:
Okay. So there was, because I rewatched it first and then started suggesting pages.

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Mel:
Might have been faster for you to suggest pages that I shouldn't read, really.

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Chas:
Yeah.

335
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Chas:
Because the mom's death was about Sean having to actually shoot the reanimated corpse of his mother,

336
00:22:24,140 --> 00:22:28,000
Chas:
it made me, as I was watching it building up to that point, I'm like,

337
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Chas:
well, how have they treated Sean having to kill zombies prior to this?

338
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:40,140
Chas:
How have they taught us what Sean's experience of the violence is?

339
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Mel:
Which I do think is important, but real quick, we'll jump back to the first

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Mel:
five pages because in the first five pages and it is all in dialogue they discuss sean's mom oh.

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Excerpts:
Listen to me,

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Excerpts:
We're going to sound like your mum. Not that I know what she sounds like.

343
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Excerpts:
You still haven't met his mum. Not yet.

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Excerpts:
Don't you get along with your mum, Sean? No, it's not that I don't get along

345
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Excerpts:
with her. Are you shamed by your mum, Sean? No, I love my mum.

346
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Excerpts:
Yeah, I love his mum. Ed. She's like butter.

347
00:23:07,290 --> 00:23:09,610
Excerpts:
Ed. Sean. Guys. Sean. Liz.

348
00:23:10,070 --> 00:23:14,570
Mel:
In the first five pages, they spend an entire page talking about Sean's mum.

349
00:23:14,790 --> 00:23:20,010
Mel:
So they're telling not showing, but they're doing it with some jokes and some

350
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Mel:
rapid fire and different things. So we know what he thinks about his mom.

351
00:23:23,470 --> 00:23:27,370
Mel:
And then we get a lot of experience of Sean and zombies and violence.

352
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Chas:
Yeah.

353
00:23:28,050 --> 00:23:32,430
Mel:
And having to kill zombies. And then we get him having to deal with his stepfather's

354
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Mel:
death, somebody that he certainly has a relationship with but is not as close with as his mom.

355
00:23:37,350 --> 00:23:39,950
Mel:
And they've established that. And then we get his mom's death.

356
00:23:40,190 --> 00:23:40,330
Chas:
Yeah.

357
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Mel:
So, yes.

358
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Chas:
So I want to tackle these in chronological order because my big

359
00:23:44,790 --> 00:23:47,770
Chas:
learning from this is like how they

360
00:23:47,770 --> 00:23:51,170
Chas:
breadcrumbed the the build-up

361
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Chas:
to what felt like a tonal shift to me but

362
00:23:53,930 --> 00:23:57,150
Chas:
it's actually teaching me this exercise has taught me they

363
00:23:57,150 --> 00:23:59,810
Chas:
deliberately had some nudges in

364
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Chas:
that direction to prepare us for it so i'm going

365
00:24:03,170 --> 00:24:06,490
Chas:
to page 41 where for

366
00:24:06,490 --> 00:24:09,990
Chas:
those of you don't remember the film sean and ed are largely oblivious

367
00:24:09,990 --> 00:24:12,890
Chas:
of the zombie apocalypse even though it's got

368
00:24:12,890 --> 00:24:15,770
Chas:
this great one-er of Sean walking through his neighborhood that is

369
00:24:15,770 --> 00:24:20,530
Chas:
a repeat of the previous day before the apocalypse starts except there's all

370
00:24:20,530 --> 00:24:26,110
Chas:
these very obvious clues like bloody handprints on the fridge and he slips in

371
00:24:26,110 --> 00:24:30,310
Chas:
viscera and just like keeps on walking and there's like no one around other

372
00:24:30,310 --> 00:24:34,350
Chas:
than a couple of shuffling zombies coming slowly towards him and he doesn't notice any of that.

373
00:24:35,230 --> 00:24:41,570
Chas:
So Sean and Ed have noticed a woman in the backyard of their house her name is Mary.

374
00:24:41,570 --> 00:24:42,990
Excerpts:
Oh my God.

375
00:24:45,990 --> 00:24:47,150
Excerpts:
She's so drunk.

376
00:24:49,350 --> 00:24:57,230
Chas:
Mary is trying to bite Sean and they think that she's drunk and trying to make out with Sean.

377
00:24:57,730 --> 00:25:02,130
Chas:
And at the bottom of page 40, it says, she keeps coming. Sean loses his patience.

378
00:25:02,510 --> 00:25:06,830
Excerpts:
Now, seriously, Mary, I'm warning you. Okay. I'm gonna have to get physical.

379
00:25:06,990 --> 00:25:10,230
Excerpts:
I mean it. This is it. I'm gonna... Fuck off.

380
00:25:10,230 --> 00:25:13,510
Chas:
Sean shoves Mary hard in the chest.

381
00:25:13,750 --> 00:25:17,730
Chas:
She stumbles down the garden, falls backwards and impales herself,

382
00:25:17,870 --> 00:25:21,750
Chas:
in caps, onto the rusty remnants of a freestanding clothesline.

383
00:25:25,310 --> 00:25:30,230
Chas:
The metal pole protrudes through her stomach. Blood oozes through her top.

384
00:25:30,490 --> 00:25:33,250
Chas:
Sean puts his hand to his mouth. Ed bites his lip.

385
00:25:33,730 --> 00:25:40,190
Chas:
Squelch. She gets up. Sean is momentarily relieved before seeing the gaping hole in her stomach.

386
00:25:40,450 --> 00:25:44,490
Chas:
Ed starts to wind the fun camera, Sean bats it out of his hands.

387
00:25:45,090 --> 00:25:49,870
Chas:
Those are only two paragraphs, a five-line paragraph and a three-line paragraph.

388
00:25:50,110 --> 00:25:57,270
Chas:
And they've really broken up the previously established rhythm on the page of

389
00:25:57,270 --> 00:26:00,430
Chas:
using action lines. It's usually much shorter than that.

390
00:26:00,610 --> 00:26:05,390
Chas:
So, they put this big block of text in there. And I'm highlighting this because

391
00:26:05,390 --> 00:26:07,990
Chas:
I think the other two scripts both do this.

392
00:26:08,270 --> 00:26:12,590
Chas:
They change the rhythm of the big print when they want us as a reader to stop

393
00:26:12,590 --> 00:26:14,690
Chas:
and pay attention to what they're doing.

394
00:26:15,850 --> 00:26:20,730
Chas:
And they do have Sean and Ed's reaction to the violence when they think they've

395
00:26:20,730 --> 00:26:22,210
Chas:
accidentally murdered someone.

396
00:26:22,870 --> 00:26:26,310
Chas:
But it's just Sean puts his hands to his mouth, Ed bites his lip. It's very small.

397
00:26:26,710 --> 00:26:32,010
Chas:
And the film doesn't give us much time anyway because it's focusing on Mary.

398
00:26:32,210 --> 00:26:35,710
Mel:
And we know what's happening already. We're clear that she's a zombie.

399
00:26:35,910 --> 00:26:41,050
Chas:
Yes, but unlike what happens later in the mum scene, we're not dwelling in Sean's

400
00:26:41,050 --> 00:26:44,750
Chas:
going, oh my God, I've accidentally killed someone, what are we going to do?

401
00:26:45,090 --> 00:26:51,370
Chas:
They very, very quickly, almost instantly let the characters off the hook of

402
00:26:51,370 --> 00:26:55,790
Chas:
that experience and go straight into the laughs,

403
00:26:55,830 --> 00:27:00,190
Chas:
which on the page is done with Ed starting to wind the fun camera,

404
00:27:00,370 --> 00:27:01,830
Chas:
which is a hilarious beat.

405
00:27:01,950 --> 00:27:06,850
Chas:
But what is missing is the visual gag is you see Sean and Ed's reaction to this

406
00:27:06,850 --> 00:27:10,730
Chas:
through the gaping hole in her stomach.

407
00:27:10,730 --> 00:27:13,590
Chas:
And so I was wanting to contrast them

408
00:27:13,590 --> 00:27:16,830
Chas:
because this isn't a tonal shift at all I don't

409
00:27:16,830 --> 00:27:19,690
Chas:
think on the page but the next

410
00:27:19,690 --> 00:27:23,230
Chas:
one that I want to contrast with is they

411
00:27:23,230 --> 00:27:28,670
Chas:
go back inside and then another zombie comes in to their house and Ed ends up

412
00:27:28,670 --> 00:27:35,870
Chas:
killing that zombie with an ashtray and this is how it reads on the page suddenly

413
00:27:35,870 --> 00:27:39,750
Chas:
Ed grabs a heavy glass ashtray and brings it down hard on the suited man's head.

414
00:27:39,910 --> 00:27:43,330
Chas:
Crack, he falls backwards, lifeless, skull split open.

415
00:27:43,930 --> 00:27:46,030
Chas:
Sean and Ed stand panting.

416
00:27:57,030 --> 00:27:58,290
Excerpts:
I'm going to shut the front door.

417
00:28:09,230 --> 00:28:10,290
Excerpts:
You see that guy?

418
00:28:10,490 --> 00:28:19,970
Chas:
Now, what happens on screen is we hold on Ed and Ed is, has adrenaline pumping through his body,

419
00:28:20,250 --> 00:28:26,510
Chas:
he's breathing hard, he's like super charged, aggressive,

420
00:28:27,050 --> 00:28:31,010
Chas:
and he's somewhere almost having enjoyed that experience.

421
00:28:31,930 --> 00:28:36,210
Chas:
And they don't put any of that performance direction or possibly it was Nick Frost on,

422
00:28:37,330 --> 00:28:40,690
Chas:
on the page but to me it was suddenly a

423
00:28:40,690 --> 00:28:43,690
Chas:
tonal reminder in the film that that there

424
00:28:43,690 --> 00:28:46,790
Chas:
is real consequences or real character

425
00:28:46,790 --> 00:28:49,930
Chas:
reactions to this violence and it's

426
00:28:49,930 --> 00:28:53,370
Chas:
not on the page i the way that the tone shift

427
00:28:53,370 --> 00:28:56,450
Chas:
it was very subtle it went from like oh

428
00:28:56,450 --> 00:28:59,170
Chas:
my god there are zombies and it's funny when we kill them

429
00:28:59,170 --> 00:29:02,210
Chas:
to no this is violence is real and

430
00:29:02,210 --> 00:29:05,410
Chas:
has a real effect on these characters so that was a shift between those

431
00:29:05,410 --> 00:29:08,150
Chas:
two and then there was a it's in

432
00:29:08,150 --> 00:29:10,990
Chas:
the same sequence it's when ed and

433
00:29:10,990 --> 00:29:15,670
Chas:
sean kill the two zombies who are in their backyard one of them being mary there's

434
00:29:15,670 --> 00:29:19,550
Chas:
a hilarious sequence about them trying to kill them like by throwing stuff at

435
00:29:19,550 --> 00:29:23,250
Chas:
them and going through the records and trying to choose which records uh are

436
00:29:23,250 --> 00:29:29,010
Chas:
eligible for being trying to kill zombies with now.

437
00:29:29,010 --> 00:29:33,590
Excerpts:
Some of these aren't limited what was that um i think it was blue monday that

438
00:29:33,590 --> 00:29:41,150
Excerpts:
was the original press sake purple rain no sign of the time definitely not the batman soundtrack.

439
00:29:41,150 --> 00:29:46,310
Chas:
And ultimately they get some blunt objects it's a cricket bat and i.

440
00:29:46,310 --> 00:29:46,870
Mel:
Believe it's a.

441
00:29:46,870 --> 00:29:47,470
Chas:
Spade yeah.

442
00:29:47,470 --> 00:29:51,110
Mel:
Yeah and this this one is more that

443
00:29:51,110 --> 00:29:53,890
Mel:
they have to repeatedly whack and

444
00:29:53,890 --> 00:29:57,010
Mel:
whack and whack until finally the blows become frenzied and

445
00:29:57,010 --> 00:30:00,210
Mel:
in perfect sync mary and the hulk are finally

446
00:30:00,210 --> 00:30:03,410
Mel:
dead sean and ed stop hyperventilating together

447
00:30:03,410 --> 00:30:08,850
Mel:
their hands bloodied their clothes spattered their face is shocked a baptism

448
00:30:08,850 --> 00:30:12,690
Mel:
of gore so you've got this like triplet like their hands bloodied their clothes

449
00:30:12,690 --> 00:30:16,810
Mel:
spattered their face is shocked a baptism of gore and it's really like this

450
00:30:16,810 --> 00:30:20,370
Mel:
is the first one where you actually feel like they get the weight.

451
00:30:20,370 --> 00:30:21,550
Chas:
Of

452
00:30:21,550 --> 00:30:27,370
Mel:
What's really happening you know there's an actual like yeah if you watch the film it's,

453
00:30:27,940 --> 00:30:31,820
Mel:
becomes funny and then it kind of does that rule of comedy where you're like

454
00:30:31,820 --> 00:30:36,060
Mel:
ha ha ha then they keep going and then it kind of comes back around again but

455
00:30:36,060 --> 00:30:39,200
Mel:
this is the first time where it's really hit them how serious this is.

456
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:45,120
Chas:
Yeah and it is not funny neither how the zombies die is funny nor is sean and

457
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:49,520
Chas:
ed's reaction to having to kill the zombies like we then go into other bits

458
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:54,240
Chas:
where sean is like running across a green to get to liz's apartment and then

459
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,560
Chas:
coming back out again where they're just like whacking zombies left and right.

460
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:02,640
Chas:
And then you've later got them all trying to kill John the bartender where their

461
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,480
Chas:
blows are like syncopated to Queen playing on the jukebox.

462
00:31:06,620 --> 00:31:11,340
Chas:
Like there are definite funny deaths in this, but there are also serious ones.

463
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,820
Chas:
And this one is the first one where on the page, that bit that you just read

464
00:31:14,820 --> 00:31:20,120
Chas:
out, where I think they've gone and done a lot of work in telling the reader

465
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:25,240
Chas:
the tone of that moment and how it's very different to everything that's gone before.

466
00:31:25,380 --> 00:31:28,260
Mel:
Hand i think of all the scripts this certainly has the

467
00:31:28,260 --> 00:31:31,500
Mel:
most tonal shifts there's many many

468
00:31:31,500 --> 00:31:34,560
Mel:
tonal shifts and this is one of them it goes from funny

469
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,340
Mel:
hilarious you know with the records to them recognizing the

470
00:31:37,340 --> 00:31:41,200
Mel:
seriousness to a smash cut of them in shide and they're

471
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,280
Mel:
shaken but then it also is a big callback to

472
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,000
Mel:
a scene before where it's you've got red on you whereas before it

473
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:52,120
Mel:
was ink and now it's blood and then you know the the tonal shifts here come

474
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:58,220
Mel:
quickly and some come from a smash cut from a scene to a scene some come within

475
00:31:58,220 --> 00:32:04,320
Mel:
the scene and i think the example of his mom's death is actually massive tonal

476
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:06,140
Mel:
shifts within that scene yeah.

477
00:32:06,830 --> 00:32:12,930
Chas:
Absolutely. I do feel that it kind of shifts between two established tones, perhaps.

478
00:32:13,250 --> 00:32:16,870
Mel:
Yeah, I would agree with that. Actually, I think maybe three,

479
00:32:17,210 --> 00:32:21,910
Mel:
really, because of the way that he interacts with David, but still.

480
00:32:22,070 --> 00:32:23,630
Mel:
And it does run for several pages.

481
00:32:23,630 --> 00:32:28,290
Chas:
Yeah. So, I mean, this is a lot of build up to get to the actual key scene.

482
00:32:28,390 --> 00:32:34,510
Chas:
But as I was watching it, oh, you know, Sean has two parents die on him and

483
00:32:34,510 --> 00:32:38,930
Chas:
he has emotional scenes with both of them. So I may as well talk about Phillips.

484
00:32:39,190 --> 00:32:44,490
Chas:
But Phillips is interesting because the emotion happens entirely in dialogue.

485
00:32:44,490 --> 00:32:52,150
Chas:
So, Philip has been bitten, he's dying, and they have all squeezed,

486
00:32:52,430 --> 00:32:55,650
Chas:
and when I say all, I mean Ed, Sean,

487
00:32:56,310 --> 00:33:01,250
Chas:
both of Sean's parents, Barbara and Philip, and then Liz and Daphs and Diane

488
00:33:01,250 --> 00:33:06,270
Chas:
are all squeezed into the jag heading for the Winchester.

489
00:33:06,990 --> 00:33:10,330
Excerpts:
And there's a rifle above the bar. We think that's deactivated.

490
00:33:10,590 --> 00:33:13,710
Excerpts:
It's not, I'm telling you. John's connected, Big Al says so.

491
00:33:13,710 --> 00:33:16,310
Excerpts:
Yeah, well, Big Al also says dogs can't look up. They can't.

492
00:33:16,350 --> 00:33:18,410
Excerpts:
No, can't they? No, they can't. Of course they can.

493
00:33:18,530 --> 00:33:21,410
Excerpts:
Are you sure? Yes, look, the pub is the right place to go, okay?

494
00:33:21,510 --> 00:33:22,810
Excerpts:
Everything is going to be fine, I promise.

495
00:33:23,230 --> 00:33:26,670
Excerpts:
Sure. I turned it off, all right? It's not easy. What?

496
00:33:27,770 --> 00:33:33,850
Excerpts:
Being a father is not easy. What? You were 12 when I met you.

497
00:33:34,270 --> 00:33:35,550
Excerpts:
Already grown up somewhere.

498
00:33:36,390 --> 00:33:41,270
Excerpts:
I just wanted you to be strong and not give up because you lost your dad.

499
00:33:42,790 --> 00:33:48,290
Excerpts:
Philip, you don't have to explain, are you? No, I do. I always loved you, Sean.

500
00:33:49,350 --> 00:33:53,530
Excerpts:
I always thought you had it in you to do well.

501
00:33:54,590 --> 00:34:00,350
Excerpts:
You just need motivation. Somebody doesn't look up to.

502
00:34:03,270 --> 00:34:04,770
Excerpts:
I thought it could be me.

503
00:34:08,370 --> 00:34:10,110
Excerpts:
Just take care of your mum.

504
00:34:13,610 --> 00:34:14,690
Excerpts:
He's a good boy.

505
00:34:19,130 --> 00:34:19,730
Excerpts:
He's a good boy.

506
00:34:20,060 --> 00:34:20,640
Excerpts:
Pull over.

507
00:34:26,100 --> 00:34:30,920
Chas:
But nothing is in the action lines. Not to be critical of it.

508
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,200
Chas:
I'm just like, okay, what are they doing on the page?

509
00:34:33,500 --> 00:34:39,460
Chas:
They've gone from a series of like three pages of one line, quick exchanges

510
00:34:39,460 --> 00:34:45,280
Chas:
of dialogue to Philip's lines where he says goodbye is five lines.

511
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:52,180
Chas:
So again, And I think the writers are deliberately using pace on the page to

512
00:34:52,180 --> 00:34:57,420
Chas:
draw our attention, to slow us down so that we can feel differently about it.

513
00:34:57,500 --> 00:35:02,240
Chas:
And that's maybe the tonal effect that they want is they want us to feel differently.

514
00:35:02,460 --> 00:35:05,540
Chas:
They want us to be emotionally engaged rather than primed to laugh.

515
00:35:05,540 --> 00:35:10,060
Mel:
Yeah, he doesn't get a monologue per se, but he certainly gets several large

516
00:35:10,060 --> 00:35:14,360
Mel:
chunks of being able to say goodbye after there's been a lot of like,

517
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,900
Mel:
no, they can't. Can't they? They can't. Are you sure? Of course they can.

518
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,000
Mel:
You know, like where there's been a lot of this sort of like multiple people

519
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,980
Mel:
talking all at once. Now it's mostly it kind of narrows down to Philip and Sean.

520
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:31,460
Mel:
And even when Sean is saying things, Philip gets longer to talk and sort of respond.

521
00:35:31,460 --> 00:35:32,360
Chas:
Yeah there's.

522
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:36,580
Mel:
A little bit of action line in terms of like philip puts his hand on sean's

523
00:35:36,580 --> 00:35:43,440
Mel:
shoulder and then the action line tells us when philip actually dies but it's minimal.

524
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:49,740
Chas:
Yeah and it's interesting the the scene opens with diane saying is your dad

525
00:35:49,740 --> 00:35:54,040
Chas:
all right and sean saying he's not my dad instinctively and then at the end

526
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:58,640
Chas:
of that for the rest of the film he says uh calls philip dad I.

527
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:02,800
Mel:
Suppose there's an argument, or not even an argument, a question to be made

528
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:08,140
Mel:
there, whether that's an emotional shift or whether that's an attempt to self-soothe his own guilt.

529
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:10,100
Mel:
But, you know, it could be both.

530
00:36:10,300 --> 00:36:15,100
Chas:
I mean, certainly a psychological shift on Sean's part. So, anyway,

531
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:23,240
Chas:
that's all the scenes that really stood out to me as a build-up to that scene where Barbara dies.

532
00:36:23,870 --> 00:36:31,670
Chas:
Gets reanimated and sean has to shoot her so it's on page was it 110 so.

533
00:36:31,670 --> 00:36:33,390
Mel:
110 is where the whole thing starts.

534
00:36:33,390 --> 00:36:34,630
Chas:
Um so.

535
00:36:34,630 --> 00:36:37,430
Mel:
We've got the bottom of 109 barbara sean.

536
00:36:37,430 --> 00:36:38,310
Chas:
Sean hold.

537
00:36:38,310 --> 00:36:44,890
Mel:
On mom you're going to be fine and then it goes and it goes for about essentially five pages of.

538
00:36:44,890 --> 00:36:45,870
Chas:
Lots.

539
00:36:45,870 --> 00:36:46,770
Mel:
Of other things happening.

540
00:36:46,770 --> 00:36:49,910
Chas:
Yeah and out of most of

541
00:36:49,910 --> 00:36:53,170
Chas:
those five pages there is still a

542
00:36:53,170 --> 00:36:56,550
Chas:
lot of dialogue and when there are action lines

543
00:36:56,550 --> 00:37:01,690
Chas:
they're very clear action lines that are kind of taking the place of character

544
00:37:01,690 --> 00:37:07,350
Chas:
interactions because what the argument is essentially about you've got the scene

545
00:37:07,350 --> 00:37:13,410
Chas:
between where Barbara gets to say goodbye to Sean is only six lines long it's

546
00:37:13,410 --> 00:37:16,030
Chas:
almost an eighth of a page i.

547
00:37:16,030 --> 00:37:27,950
Excerpts:
Never thanked you for what for these two wonderful mum it's been a funny sort of day hasn't it,

548
00:37:29,390 --> 00:37:37,250
Excerpts:
oh no no no no no come on come on stop it stop it stop it come on please don't go.

549
00:37:38,550 --> 00:37:44,350
Chas:
And then Barbara dies, so her death moment is not given even the same amount

550
00:37:44,350 --> 00:37:51,070
Chas:
of time that Philip's is, but then immediately we get to, there's a click of the rifle,

551
00:37:51,450 --> 00:37:56,530
Chas:
and it's Dav's pointing the rifle at Barbara, and then it's the argument about

552
00:37:56,530 --> 00:37:58,530
Chas:
whether to shoot her or not.

553
00:37:58,670 --> 00:38:01,470
Mel:
Well, it's an argument about whether to shoot her or not,

554
00:38:01,530 --> 00:38:04,570
Mel:
which becomes an argument about like a

555
00:38:04,570 --> 00:38:07,530
Mel:
lot of other things about well actually you're in love with oh

556
00:38:07,530 --> 00:38:10,290
Mel:
but actually i thought this you know and so

557
00:38:10,290 --> 00:38:13,070
Mel:
they're they're talking about their own history they're talking

558
00:38:13,070 --> 00:38:16,350
Mel:
about complicated interpersonal relationships it's really

559
00:38:16,350 --> 00:38:19,950
Mel:
again obvious how much david and

560
00:38:19,950 --> 00:38:23,150
Mel:
sean's sort of like anger slash rivalry comes

561
00:38:23,150 --> 00:38:27,530
Mel:
to the fore like lots of meandering you

562
00:38:27,530 --> 00:38:30,530
Mel:
know that thing where you start arguing with your partner and suddenly

563
00:38:30,530 --> 00:38:34,090
Mel:
it's about this thing that happened eight years ago that neither of you have

564
00:38:34,090 --> 00:38:37,350
Mel:
a hundred percent let go even though you both say you've let it go and then

565
00:38:37,350 --> 00:38:40,330
Mel:
especially if there's been a third person involved that's exactly what happened

566
00:38:40,330 --> 00:38:44,350
Mel:
so this just goes on and on and on with every once in a while them touching

567
00:38:44,350 --> 00:38:47,870
Mel:
again on sean and sean being like nope can't shoot my mom yeah.

568
00:38:47,870 --> 00:38:51,490
Excerpts:
Like the fact that daft is pointing a gun at my mom i'm not the one who's being

569
00:38:51,490 --> 00:38:56,270
Excerpts:
unreasonable pickle for christ's sake she's not dead she's finished for a hero

570
00:38:56,270 --> 00:38:59,410
Excerpts:
you're quite a hypocrite you're the one that's gone from being a chartered account,

571
00:39:00,450 --> 00:39:04,390
Excerpts:
I'm not a chartered accountant. Well, you look like one. Yeah.

572
00:39:04,950 --> 00:39:09,050
Excerpts:
I'm a lecturer. You're a twat. Yeah. She's not your mum anymore.

573
00:39:09,470 --> 00:39:12,490
Excerpts:
In a minute, she'll be just another zombie. Don't say that.

574
00:39:12,710 --> 00:39:18,790
Excerpts:
We're not using the said word. Please, can we just calm the fuck down?

575
00:39:20,240 --> 00:39:24,580
Mel:
And then finally, Liz and Sean start to have this moment.

576
00:39:24,940 --> 00:39:28,880
Mel:
And then that's when Barbara reanimates.

577
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:29,220
Chas:
Yeah.

578
00:39:29,660 --> 00:39:35,520
Mel:
Again, in between them. And that's when suddenly, I don't think we've had in

579
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:40,360
Mel:
these five pages once, we've had an action line that's more than one line long.

580
00:39:40,580 --> 00:39:45,480
Mel:
We've got one or two slightly longer ones, but mostly it's dialogue entirely

581
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:51,460
Mel:
two pages that are nothing but dialogue one action line one action line and then the top of 115,

582
00:39:52,020 --> 00:40:02,560
Mel:
so the very last line of 114 barbara off screen oh and then 115 giant chunk of action.

583
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,520
Chas:
Yeah so similar to what we were talking about before

584
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,820
Chas:
and i think we'll find this again and again maybe not

585
00:40:08,820 --> 00:40:11,680
Chas:
so much in swiss army man but definitely i

586
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,800
Chas:
noticed it and sorry to bother you where like you

587
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,920
Chas:
said the writers because they're writing for themselves they may

588
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,920
Chas:
not have to do their heavy lifting and expressly telling the

589
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:24,080
Chas:
reader how to feel about this moment but what

590
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:27,980
Chas:
they are doing is telling the reader stop pay

591
00:40:27,980 --> 00:40:33,100
Chas:
attention something is happening here with just the rhythm of the action lines

592
00:40:33,100 --> 00:40:39,100
Chas:
so if you don't want to get into like a whole uh Shane Black like it's almost

593
00:40:39,100 --> 00:40:44,260
Chas:
comical kind of description of how to feel about this,

594
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,840
Chas:
then this is, I guess, one way potentially.

595
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:52,260
Chas:
Now, it only works, I'm not saying like, start overwriting your big print.

596
00:40:52,660 --> 00:40:59,200
Chas:
It works because they've established a visual rhythm on the page of how big print is used.

597
00:40:59,460 --> 00:41:05,840
Chas:
And then at these moments, they are slowing the pace down deliberately and it makes you read it.

598
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:10,760
Mel:
And I like, well, obviously we'll get to it, but sorry to bother you does something

599
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,000
Mel:
similar, but also the complete reverse.

600
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:18,100
Mel:
So, you know, there's more than one way to do this thing.

601
00:41:18,220 --> 00:41:22,560
Mel:
But one thing I found through all of the pages is contrast is king.

602
00:41:22,900 --> 00:41:26,200
Mel:
That contrast is where you're getting a lot of your attention.

603
00:41:26,380 --> 00:41:29,360
Mel:
They all do it different ways, but it's about the contrast. Yeah.

604
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:34,100
Chas:
So the block of text is, Barbara is standing upright behind David.

605
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:37,840
Chas:
Everyone stops at the sound of her mournful wine. Her eyes are milky white,

606
00:41:38,060 --> 00:41:40,940
Chas:
skin a lifeless gray, face twisted, almost pleading.

607
00:41:41,580 --> 00:41:45,100
Chas:
Sean takes the rifle from David and points it at her. His hands shake,

608
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:48,260
Chas:
his eyes fill with tears, his finger tenses.

609
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:53,200
Mel:
Again, that three thing, which is what he did earlier, which is really interesting,

610
00:41:53,420 --> 00:41:56,960
Mel:
like the cadence of it and the rule of threes and all of that.

611
00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:00,600
Chas:
And they've done on the page something that they changed in the edit.

612
00:42:01,250 --> 00:42:05,890
Chas:
Which is Dab says, do it. And then the action line, it says,

613
00:42:06,170 --> 00:42:08,310
Chas:
Barbara looks at David, her expression twists into a scowl.

614
00:42:08,430 --> 00:42:11,710
Chas:
Zombie Barbara hisses and lunges forward. Sean says, I'm sorry, mom.

615
00:42:12,110 --> 00:42:16,570
Chas:
Bang. And what they've done in the edit is Sean apologizes to his mom,

616
00:42:16,770 --> 00:42:21,230
Chas:
but refuses to shoot until she snarls.

617
00:42:21,430 --> 00:42:26,050
Chas:
And like, he can't shoot her while she's looking like his mom.

618
00:42:26,230 --> 00:42:31,090
Chas:
And it's her stopping to becoming a zombie, like acting like a zombie.

619
00:42:31,250 --> 00:42:33,030
Chas:
That he can finally shoot her.

620
00:42:33,550 --> 00:42:38,290
Chas:
And after that, bang, David is flecked with blood. Zombie Barbara drops.

621
00:42:38,690 --> 00:42:43,210
Chas:
Total shock, in all caps. Sean lets the rifle fall to the floor.

622
00:42:43,410 --> 00:42:44,650
Chas:
Everyone is speechless.

623
00:42:45,190 --> 00:42:50,550
Chas:
David takes off his glasses to clean them. So, that's kind of the moment.

624
00:42:51,250 --> 00:42:55,550
Chas:
And the one observation that I had from this exercise is,

625
00:42:55,710 --> 00:42:58,830
Chas:
A, it wasn't as unique a moment

626
00:42:58,830 --> 00:43:02,070
Chas:
in the film as I had thought it was just an escalation building

627
00:43:02,070 --> 00:43:05,530
Chas:
on a lot of previous moments and they

628
00:43:05,530 --> 00:43:12,950
Chas:
yeah mainly use big print to draw attention to the action like a baptism of

629
00:43:12,950 --> 00:43:16,770
Chas:
gore those that you know dropping into those those rhythm of threes and staccato

630
00:43:16,770 --> 00:43:20,810
Chas:
short sentences something that they've repeated as well but like you're saying

631
00:43:20,810 --> 00:43:22,970
Chas:
those things are contrasting.

632
00:43:23,450 --> 00:43:26,470
Chas:
From all the big print that has happened before they are contrasting from

633
00:43:26,470 --> 00:43:30,190
Chas:
in this this argument about it's it's

634
00:43:30,190 --> 00:43:33,070
Chas:
four pages of pure dialogue of them back and forth

635
00:43:33,070 --> 00:43:36,330
Chas:
arguing and like you say that the argument moves

636
00:43:36,330 --> 00:43:39,450
Chas:
from what to do about sean's

637
00:43:39,450 --> 00:43:43,070
Chas:
mom to it being about how dabs

638
00:43:43,070 --> 00:43:46,330
Chas:
feels about sean to diane and

639
00:43:46,330 --> 00:43:50,190
Chas:
dabs having it out about their relationship then

640
00:43:50,190 --> 00:43:53,150
Chas:
there's just some wonderful comic relief repeated

641
00:43:53,150 --> 00:43:56,530
Chas:
jokes from ed where he just says yeah in

642
00:43:56,530 --> 00:43:59,590
Chas:
a really gruff voice again and again

643
00:43:59,590 --> 00:44:03,030
Chas:
they repeat the exacerbated joke from the very

644
00:44:03,030 --> 00:44:07,770
Chas:
first scene repeats the joke from earlier in the film of we're not using the

645
00:44:07,770 --> 00:44:14,770
Chas:
z word so there is so much just quick rapid humor about this more so than i

646
00:44:14,770 --> 00:44:19,970
Chas:
had remembered like i think i remember the the feeling of being in sean's shoes

647
00:44:19,970 --> 00:44:21,530
Chas:
and having to shoot his own mother.

648
00:44:21,750 --> 00:44:27,090
Chas:
I remember that so well that I've colored it in my mind.

649
00:44:27,170 --> 00:44:32,390
Chas:
I thought there was more around it that was tonally at odds.

650
00:44:32,550 --> 00:44:38,730
Chas:
Whereas I think it's almost more impressive that it is so powerful in such a short dose.

651
00:44:38,970 --> 00:44:44,150
Mel:
Because it almost immediately moves on to an angry confrontation between Sean

652
00:44:44,150 --> 00:44:49,770
Mel:
and David, and then a ridiculous over-the-top David getting pulled out by a

653
00:44:49,770 --> 00:44:52,190
Mel:
horde of zombies. Kind of funny, kind of gross.

654
00:44:52,370 --> 00:44:56,710
Mel:
You know, it moves on, it gives you this beat with Sean and Barbara and then

655
00:44:56,710 --> 00:45:00,030
Mel:
it blows past into two other different tones.

656
00:45:00,270 --> 00:45:07,070
Chas:
Yeah. So I've said breadcrumbing and longer changing the big print rhythm.

657
00:45:07,390 --> 00:45:12,130
Chas:
You've got contrast. Is there anything else that you took from Sean of the Dead?

658
00:45:12,590 --> 00:45:15,990
Mel:
No, I think that was my big thing. And I do think of the three that we covered,

659
00:45:16,130 --> 00:45:20,470
Mel:
this one has constant tonal changes all the way throughout.

660
00:45:20,930 --> 00:45:26,690
Mel:
Um, and so seeing how it specifically leverages the, the bigger emotional beats.

661
00:45:26,850 --> 00:45:28,490
Mel:
And I really like not just breadcrumbing,

662
00:45:28,590 --> 00:45:31,670
Mel:
but the escalation of the breadcrumbing is pretty good. Yeah.

663
00:45:32,350 --> 00:45:37,410
Chas:
All right. So, and, and Rye Waters appreciated your suggestion of sorry to bother

664
00:45:37,410 --> 00:45:41,270
Chas:
you, but why don't you summarize, uh, sorry to bother you.

665
00:45:46,630 --> 00:45:51,730
Excerpts:
I'm just out here surviving. And what I'm doing right now won't even matter.

666
00:45:51,870 --> 00:45:53,770
Excerpts:
Baby, baby, it will always matter.

667
00:46:10,530 --> 00:46:13,570
Excerpts:
Hey, Cash, how much longer I gotta wait for my money? God made this land for

668
00:46:13,570 --> 00:46:18,070
Excerpts:
all of us. Greedy people like you wanna hog it to yourself and your family and- Me and my family?

669
00:46:18,330 --> 00:46:20,830
Excerpts:
Yeah. Cassius, I'm your uncle.

670
00:46:23,090 --> 00:46:30,350
Excerpts:
I just really need a job. 40 on two. This is telemarketing. Stick to the script.

671
00:46:32,190 --> 00:46:36,210
Excerpts:
Hey, hello. Um, Mr. Davidson, Cassius Green here. Sorry to bother.

672
00:46:37,070 --> 00:46:40,490
Excerpts:
Let me give you a tip. You wanna make some money here? Use your white voice.

673
00:46:40,670 --> 00:46:44,390
Excerpts:
My white voice? I'm not talking about Will Smith's wife. Like this young blood.

674
00:46:45,270 --> 00:46:48,330
Excerpts:
Hey, Mr. Kramer, this is Langston from Regal View.

675
00:46:52,090 --> 00:46:54,870
Excerpts:
As always, we'll be getting that out to you right away.

676
00:46:55,510 --> 00:47:01,970
Mel:
So Sorry to Bother You is a film by Boots Riley about...

677
00:47:01,970 --> 00:47:09,150
Mel:
It's a very... As all Boots Riley projects are, It's kind of difficult to describe

678
00:47:09,150 --> 00:47:11,590
Mel:
exactly what it's about without giving you the world.

679
00:47:11,750 --> 00:47:16,070
Mel:
So I think, honestly, maybe just jumping into sort of the first five pages and

680
00:47:16,070 --> 00:47:22,170
Mel:
explaining what it does there and then moving on, because it is a,

681
00:47:22,690 --> 00:47:27,190
Mel:
depending on who you ask, you'll get a lot of different answers.

682
00:47:27,190 --> 00:47:32,430
Mel:
It's an absurdist allegorical satire

683
00:47:32,430 --> 00:47:36,310
Mel:
potentially futuristic i'm going

684
00:47:36,310 --> 00:47:39,670
Mel:
to argue and this is what i'm most interested in because you had not seen this

685
00:47:39,670 --> 00:47:44,430
Mel:
and you were watching it and i was wondering what you would think about where

686
00:47:44,430 --> 00:47:48,430
Mel:
the tonal shift was and a lot of people think where i think the tonal shift

687
00:47:48,430 --> 00:47:54,230
Mel:
is is also a genre shift and i don't think it is and this is where i know we're an audio medium,

688
00:47:54,770 --> 00:47:59,090
Mel:
but I have a visual representation of what I think sums it up.

689
00:47:59,460 --> 00:48:05,180
Mel:
When it opens, I think the two big takeaways that I had from this script were the same.

690
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:09,340
Mel:
It was about contrast in the action lines versus the thing.

691
00:48:09,460 --> 00:48:13,800
Mel:
But also, Boots Riley does a really interesting thing throughout the entire script.

692
00:48:13,900 --> 00:48:18,420
Mel:
Now, I read the whole script, and it's one of the really interesting things

693
00:48:18,420 --> 00:48:20,200
Mel:
to me is the way he uses color.

694
00:48:20,740 --> 00:48:23,840
Mel:
And that is established right in the first five pages.

695
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:27,220
Mel:
So in the first five pages, we meet Cassius Green.

696
00:48:27,220 --> 00:48:30,660
Mel:
And it has his name in the

697
00:48:30,660 --> 00:48:33,660
Mel:
big print and it has his name in the dialogue

698
00:48:33,660 --> 00:48:36,320
Mel:
and it uses this throughout but it also uses a lot of

699
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:39,260
Mel:
other colors within the very first page we've name

700
00:48:39,260 --> 00:48:42,460
Mel:
checked vanna white green is repeated many

701
00:48:42,460 --> 00:48:45,640
Mel:
many times we're talking about the color of

702
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:48,700
Mel:
his car we're talking about lots of other things and color

703
00:48:48,700 --> 00:48:51,460
Mel:
is consistently signposts throughout the

704
00:48:51,460 --> 00:48:54,420
Mel:
whole script i'm talking about like purple right

705
00:48:54,420 --> 00:48:57,800
Mel:
that's a that's a basic color but like nobody says mauve

706
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:01,200
Mel:
right when they when they're talking about like your basic color

707
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:05,260
Mel:
palace but everything that we're talking about here is like gold black white

708
00:49:05,260 --> 00:49:10,820
Mel:
red and black and white being very important because they are key so the opening

709
00:49:10,820 --> 00:49:19,800
Mel:
five pages set up that Cassius Green is trying to get hired to work for this telemarketing firm.

710
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:23,960
Mel:
He does get hired. He goes home. You meet him and his girlfriend.

711
00:49:24,240 --> 00:49:27,080
Mel:
They start making out. Then suddenly the

712
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:31,380
Mel:
garage door flies open and you realize they're living inside of a garage and

713
00:49:31,380 --> 00:49:38,360
Mel:
they are both very broke and trying to make it in this dystopian world where

714
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:43,600
Mel:
we get some commercials and some hints of what we see going on around them that

715
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:46,140
Mel:
really honestly feels very soylent green.

716
00:49:46,460 --> 00:49:50,100
Mel:
So the first five pages establish their situation, they establish.

717
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:59,700
Mel:
Tone. And then they establish this, you know, on page five, we see Cassius watching

718
00:49:59,700 --> 00:50:04,060
Mel:
this TV commercial, which is talking about the Worry-Free Solution.

719
00:50:05,020 --> 00:50:09,720
Excerpts:
Everyone is talking about the Worry-Free Solution. Worry-Free is a revolutionary

720
00:50:09,720 --> 00:50:13,040
Excerpts:
new business and lifestyle model taking the world by storm.

721
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:17,300
Excerpts:
When you sign a Worry-Free contract, you're guaranteed employment and housing

722
00:50:17,300 --> 00:50:20,260
Excerpts:
for life. Stop worrying and get worry-free.

723
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:25,320
Excerpts:
The worry-free living quarters are state-of-the-art. The worry-free food is to die for.

724
00:50:25,500 --> 00:50:32,460
Mel:
Very much this tone that is both 50s style, you know, selling a housewife and

725
00:50:32,460 --> 00:50:37,540
Mel:
new appliance commercial and also futuristic dystopian world that is going to

726
00:50:37,540 --> 00:50:40,140
Mel:
turn you into food source commercial.

727
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:45,120
Chas:
The description of the housing of the people working for the worry-free is,

728
00:50:45,580 --> 00:50:50,820
Chas:
TV shows a chic-looking room with six bunk beds, like a prison done up by a

729
00:50:50,820 --> 00:50:52,280
Chas:
hip interior decorator.

730
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:53,280
Mel:
So that's the tone.

731
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:56,220
Chas:
Well, no, you haven't said what the tone is. What do you think the tone is?

732
00:50:56,340 --> 00:51:03,280
Mel:
The tone is satirical. And then the interesting thing that I find is that I

733
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:06,820
Mel:
think a lot of people would put, if I'm saying satirical blank,

734
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:10,860
Mel:
10 people watch this film, 10 people fill in that blank differently.

735
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:11,240
Chas:
Yeah.

736
00:51:11,240 --> 00:51:18,300
Mel:
Because there's a lot going on. And I think that satirical dystopia is where I would put it.

737
00:51:18,500 --> 00:51:24,640
Chas:
Yes. I think it does that. I would say there's a few large chunks.

738
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:28,940
Chas:
It does spend in these first five pages quite a bit of time talking about some

739
00:51:28,940 --> 00:51:30,240
Chas:
of the production design.

740
00:51:30,780 --> 00:51:36,720
Chas:
So the very opening is like spends quite a bit of time talking about Cassius's

741
00:51:36,720 --> 00:51:39,640
Chas:
employee of the month plaque that he's holding up.

742
00:51:39,780 --> 00:51:40,860
Mel:
And it won't stop.

743
00:51:41,240 --> 00:51:41,640
Chas:
Yes.

744
00:51:41,860 --> 00:51:45,540
Mel:
Every time his girlfriend gets a new pair of earrings, the script describes

745
00:51:45,540 --> 00:51:46,500
Mel:
the new pair of earrings.

746
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:51,100
Mel:
We get elevator descriptions in detail, car descriptions in detail.

747
00:51:51,240 --> 00:51:54,900
Mel:
Like there's a lot of description of the surroundings and those all show up

748
00:51:54,900 --> 00:51:56,260
Mel:
on screen and they're all very important.

749
00:51:56,600 --> 00:52:00,560
Chas:
So talking about their studio apartment, Cassius and his girlfriend Detroit

750
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:03,020
Chas:
lay in bed in a very small studio apartment.

751
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:07,340
Chas:
On the nightstand, there is a faded sepia tone 1980s photograph of a sharply

752
00:52:07,340 --> 00:52:12,540
Chas:
dressed man posing in front of a Lincoln Continental. The man has a very proud expression on his face.

753
00:52:13,020 --> 00:52:16,220
Chas:
Cassius stares at the ceiling while Detroit lays her head in his chest.

754
00:52:16,420 --> 00:52:22,720
Chas:
There's these very long paragraphs about a lot of production design and world building.

755
00:52:22,940 --> 00:52:25,540
Mel:
And I think that's very key. There are a lot of very long paragraphs.

756
00:52:25,940 --> 00:52:31,480
Mel:
Every time we enter a new scene, we get a long paragraph setting up the scene.

757
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:36,500
Mel:
Setting up what Cassius is holding, like with all of the plaques,

758
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:39,780
Mel:
or the neighborhood that he's walking through, or the car that he's driving.

759
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:44,860
Mel:
Like there's a lot of long blocks of text that are setting this visual for us.

760
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:46,340
Chas:
Yeah. And there's.

761
00:52:46,860 --> 00:52:53,180
Chas:
There's two more plotty things that I want to talk about, which go towards your dystopia.

762
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:57,440
Chas:
And also, I think that you say dystopia, but really, I think it's quite a specific,

763
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:00,940
Chas:
capitalist, technology-driven dystopia.

764
00:53:01,180 --> 00:53:05,480
Chas:
It's like- Absolutely. Basically, where we're heading to itself.

765
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:09,400
Mel:
This is what I mean by the number of descriptors that you could use for this

766
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:12,900
Mel:
are, like, I could come up with 10 and they might be 10 different,

767
00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:14,520
Mel:
but still accurate ones than you would.

768
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:20,860
Chas:
But Cassius is in a job interview and has gone to the lengths of lying on his

769
00:53:20,860 --> 00:53:26,960
Chas:
resume about two key employment positions he's had previously and bringing in

770
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:31,220
Chas:
an employee of the month plaque and an enormous trophy.

771
00:53:31,500 --> 00:53:38,240
Chas:
The on the page description does not actually give credit to how enormous the trophy is.

772
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:41,020
Chas:
It's like three trophies, one

773
00:53:41,020 --> 00:53:45,920
Chas:
on top of the other. and the person who's interviewing him calls him out.

774
00:53:46,860 --> 00:53:51,340
Excerpts:
That is intriguing. Mainly because

775
00:53:51,340 --> 00:53:57,900
Excerpts:
I was the branch manager at the Bank of Oakland between 2014 and 2016.

776
00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:02,200
Excerpts:
And you, Mr. Green, you never fucking worked there.

777
00:54:02,420 --> 00:54:04,760
Chas:
And then ends up giving him the job.

778
00:54:05,300 --> 00:54:10,220
Excerpts:
Okay, Cassius Green, listen up. Okay, this is telemarketing.

779
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:14,760
Excerpts:
We're not mapping the fucking human genome here.

780
00:54:15,240 --> 00:54:19,040
Excerpts:
I don't care if you have experience for this. I'll hire damn near anyone.

781
00:54:19,220 --> 00:54:21,360
Excerpts:
You know what this bootleg trophy tells me?

782
00:54:21,540 --> 00:54:26,060
Excerpts:
Tells me the only thing I need to know. You have initiative and you can read.

783
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:32,360
Mel:
And to be honest, being able to lie is something that they're looking for in their telemarketers.

784
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:36,160
Mel:
So really, it's actually a plus for them.

785
00:54:36,340 --> 00:54:39,220
Chas:
And then, like you said, you've got the worry-free commercial.

786
00:54:39,220 --> 00:54:44,500
Chas:
So, they're definitely telling us how stylized this world is,

787
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:46,160
Chas:
like I think through your emphasis

788
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:49,920
Chas:
of color and the amount of time they're spending in production design.

789
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:55,680
Chas:
And that stood out on the page because what surprised me when I went back was

790
00:54:55,680 --> 00:55:00,760
Chas:
how far into the movie the surrealism starts.

791
00:55:01,250 --> 00:55:08,770
Chas:
Because I think it's page nine or 10 when he does his first telemarketing call.

792
00:55:08,990 --> 00:55:10,590
Mel:
Oh, sure. Right.

793
00:55:10,850 --> 00:55:16,270
Chas:
And when he has his first telemarketing call, he falls through the floor and

794
00:55:16,270 --> 00:55:20,870
Chas:
he's on a call with someone at a dining room table, but they're also looking at each other.

795
00:55:21,010 --> 00:55:25,050
Chas:
And Cassius is like in his space, but at his telemarketing desk because it's

796
00:55:25,050 --> 00:55:26,730
Chas:
fallen through into this other person's room.

797
00:55:26,790 --> 00:55:31,330
Chas:
And then that person hangs up, Cassius makes the next caller and it's falling

798
00:55:31,330 --> 00:55:35,950
Chas:
into someone else's room and it's a couple having sex on the couch and then

799
00:55:35,950 --> 00:55:39,390
Chas:
falls into a third room and he finally gets into a discussion with the lady

800
00:55:39,390 --> 00:55:44,950
Chas:
and he sticks to the script to the point where he is trying to sell this lady, I think,

801
00:55:45,130 --> 00:55:48,970
Chas:
encyclopedias when she's saying that her husband's dying of stage four cancer.

802
00:55:49,250 --> 00:55:54,350
Mel:
And it exacerbates that craziness of like, this is what is actually happening.

803
00:55:54,510 --> 00:55:57,570
Mel:
You might be a telemarketer calling someone on the worst day of their life,

804
00:55:57,570 --> 00:56:09,690
Mel:
But to actually then realize that situation is fantastic, but makes you feel as a viewer so strange.

805
00:56:09,690 --> 00:56:15,650
Mel:
You're like, oh, yeah, we are literalizing and realizing in the actual term

806
00:56:15,650 --> 00:56:20,750
Mel:
of the word how horrific and surreal and strange this whole experience is.

807
00:56:20,750 --> 00:56:27,770
Mel:
And then it's not till page 14 that we get the second real kicker that becomes

808
00:56:27,770 --> 00:56:32,930
Mel:
a runner throughout the whole thing, which is when Cassius meets Langston.

809
00:56:33,270 --> 00:56:33,430
Chas:
Yeah.

810
00:56:34,030 --> 00:56:37,870
Excerpts:
You want to make some money here? Then read the script with a white voice.

811
00:56:39,730 --> 00:56:43,470
Excerpts:
People say I talk with a white voice anyway, so why did it help me out?

812
00:56:43,690 --> 00:56:48,150
Excerpts:
Well, you don't talk white enough. I'm not talking about Will Smith's wife anyway.

813
00:56:48,330 --> 00:56:51,210
Excerpts:
Why is this his proper? I'm talking about the real deal.

814
00:56:52,110 --> 00:56:56,710
Excerpts:
I hope they seem like it. Hello, Mr. Everett. Cassius Green here.

815
00:56:56,870 --> 00:56:59,330
Excerpts:
Sorry to bother you. You got it wrong.

816
00:56:59,550 --> 00:57:02,990
Excerpts:
I'm not talking about sounding all nasal.

817
00:57:03,470 --> 00:57:07,510
Excerpts:
It's like sounding like you don't have a care. Got your bills paid.

818
00:57:07,910 --> 00:57:12,170
Excerpts:
You're happy about your future. You're about ready to jump in your Ferrari out

819
00:57:12,170 --> 00:57:13,670
Excerpts:
there after you get off this call.

820
00:57:14,050 --> 00:57:16,390
Excerpts:
Put some real breath in there.

821
00:57:16,990 --> 00:57:20,210
Excerpts:
Breezy. Like, I don't really need this money.

822
00:57:21,050 --> 00:57:22,810
Excerpts:
You've never been fired.

823
00:57:23,710 --> 00:57:30,910
Excerpts:
Only laid off. It's not really a white voice. It's what they wish they sounded like.

824
00:57:31,490 --> 00:57:35,510
Excerpts:
It's like what they think they're supposed to sound like.

825
00:57:37,460 --> 00:57:44,200
Excerpts:
Hey, Mr. Kramer, this is Langston from Regalview. I didn't catch you at the wrong time, did I?

826
00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:48,580
Mel:
This exchange between them, this long scene, which is the first scene where

827
00:57:48,580 --> 00:57:53,920
Mel:
we stop getting so many chunks of tech.

828
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:56,800
Mel:
Like, there are multiple scenes that are nothing but action lines.

829
00:57:56,940 --> 00:58:00,740
Mel:
They're only action lines. There's zero dialogue whatsoever. It's just description.

830
00:58:01,140 --> 00:58:05,680
Mel:
Now we're on page 14. We're in the scene 23. And now it's solely conversation.

831
00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:09,720
Mel:
And the conversation when they are using their white voice they're overdubbed

832
00:58:09,720 --> 00:58:12,620
Mel:
by white actors and not just white actors like very well so you have i.

833
00:58:12,620 --> 00:58:15,340
Chas:
Picked david cross and and patten oswald like.

834
00:58:15,340 --> 00:58:16,440
Mel:
Yes you can just hear.

835
00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:17,500
Chas:
Them and see them.

836
00:58:17,500 --> 00:58:23,500
Mel:
Well-known people who also do voice acting and are as white as it gets you know

837
00:58:23,500 --> 00:58:29,500
Mel:
whereas danny glover's voice is as not white as it gets um so clearly again

838
00:58:29,500 --> 00:58:35,220
Mel:
contrast being very strong and it adds this other layer of surrealism where Yeah, they're dubbing,

839
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:39,740
Mel:
but obviously the mouth looks like the ADR is extreme.

840
00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:42,280
Chas:
Yeah. They are very much in the

841
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:47,640
Chas:
production, making it very obvious to the viewer that this is not real.

842
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:52,700
Chas:
And it says, but only in parenthetical, overdubbed by a white actor.

843
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:55,240
Chas:
It doesn't make a huge deal out of it.

844
00:58:55,340 --> 00:58:59,480
Mel:
And I think this is where you get when you are a writer-director and again,

845
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:02,540
Mel:
trying not to scare off producers maybe.

846
00:59:02,540 --> 00:59:08,140
Mel:
You know if you were to write this is played by Danny Glover and he is overdubbed

847
00:59:08,140 --> 00:59:13,180
Mel:
by David Cross the producer's like oh that's too weird or oh we can't get that

848
00:59:13,180 --> 00:59:19,240
Mel:
or oh whatever he just sort of glazes past it and then it becomes a huge part of the movie but,

849
00:59:19,830 --> 00:59:24,590
Mel:
don't need that for the dialogue that's on the page to do its job and so he

850
00:59:24,590 --> 00:59:27,290
Mel:
just sort of yeah notes it and moves past it.

851
00:59:27,290 --> 00:59:30,170
Chas:
I just want to note that on page 13 so

852
00:59:30,170 --> 00:59:33,670
Chas:
just before that scene was the first point where i felt

853
00:59:33,670 --> 00:59:36,310
Chas:
the surrealism was part of their

854
00:59:36,310 --> 00:59:39,270
Chas:
real life so we'd mentioned the the calls

855
00:59:39,270 --> 00:59:42,390
Chas:
where he's falling through the the floor but those

856
00:59:42,390 --> 00:59:45,330
Chas:
i thought at that time is like this could just

857
00:59:45,330 --> 00:59:48,190
Chas:
be a visual metaphor for how he feels he's intruding on

858
00:59:48,190 --> 00:59:51,190
Chas:
their lives but the film is called sorry to bother you

859
00:59:51,190 --> 00:59:54,190
Chas:
sure and it wouldn't have surprised me

860
00:59:54,190 --> 00:59:57,050
Chas:
at that point and i don't think it is really supposed

861
00:59:57,050 --> 00:59:59,730
Chas:
to be his every time he makes a phone call his desk is

862
00:59:59,730 --> 01:00:02,490
Chas:
actually falling into people's living rooms that's not what it's supposed to

863
01:00:02,490 --> 01:00:05,970
Chas:
be but the white person voice is real

864
01:00:05,970 --> 01:00:08,970
Chas:
in their world right it is

865
01:00:08,970 --> 01:00:12,570
Chas:
a surreal hint but just before Cassius

866
01:00:12,570 --> 01:00:15,810
Chas:
is with his friend Sal in a bar and

867
01:00:15,810 --> 01:00:19,650
Chas:
Cassius goes into a VIP room and it

868
01:00:19,650 --> 01:00:22,690
Chas:
is a whole page of text describing the VIP

869
01:00:22,690 --> 01:00:26,070
Chas:
room it's very straightforward description.

870
01:00:26,070 --> 01:00:28,730
Chas:
About how crowded the room is and getting

871
01:00:28,730 --> 01:00:32,790
Chas:
more and more crowded and Cassius feeling more and more uncomfortable so

872
01:00:32,790 --> 01:00:35,590
Chas:
there's not a lot of tone as i would

873
01:00:35,590 --> 01:00:38,830
Chas:
say coming through the big print like when i say that they're just

874
01:00:38,830 --> 01:00:42,110
Chas:
telling us what we're seeing they're not telling us how either cassius

875
01:00:42,110 --> 01:00:47,430
Chas:
really or we as the reader are supposed to feel about that scene but when i

876
01:00:47,430 --> 01:00:51,390
Chas:
saw it on screen it's like he was stepping into another world this was not a

877
01:00:51,390 --> 01:00:57,730
Chas:
real world they'd gone from a believable san francisco dive bar into a back

878
01:00:57,730 --> 01:01:01,250
Chas:
room that felt It's surreal is the only way I can describe it.

879
01:01:01,950 --> 01:01:06,370
Mel:
So would you say that this film or script specifically is doing something similar

880
01:01:06,370 --> 01:01:11,770
Mel:
where it's sort of escalating as it goes, like escalating, escalating the breadcrumbs, as it were?

881
01:01:12,190 --> 01:01:12,610
Chas:
Yeah.

882
01:01:13,190 --> 01:01:16,950
Chas:
I just think it's perhaps, like you say, as a writer-director,

883
01:01:17,350 --> 01:01:20,750
Chas:
they're avoiding actually just how bonkers it's going to be.

884
01:01:20,890 --> 01:01:23,950
Mel:
So bonkers. I love it.

885
01:01:24,130 --> 01:01:27,390
Chas:
So one of my favorite films is Brazil.

886
01:01:27,890 --> 01:01:32,830
Chas:
And this feels like a wonderful, modern, African-American take on Brazil.

887
01:01:33,110 --> 01:01:37,970
Chas:
A more, perhaps, coherent narrative, but it's definitely, like,

888
01:01:38,150 --> 01:01:42,170
Chas:
absurdist. And when I say absurdist, I mean like from the theatrical tradition,

889
01:01:42,430 --> 01:01:45,950
Chas:
like waiting for Godot kind of absurdist humor.

890
01:01:46,230 --> 01:01:50,790
Chas:
And so when you asked me where the tonal shift was, I was like,

891
01:01:50,910 --> 01:01:55,330
Chas:
I don't think there was a tonal shift for me because honestly,

892
01:01:55,330 --> 01:01:58,270
Chas:
the way this film made me feel, and I think it's super impressive,

893
01:01:58,530 --> 01:02:03,830
Chas:
is that from those first five pages, if I then went and read the last five pages,

894
01:02:04,010 --> 01:02:05,830
Chas:
I'd be like, what the fuck has happened?

895
01:02:05,830 --> 01:02:14,230
Chas:
There's no way these two collections could occupy the same narrative story within X number, 104 pages.

896
01:02:14,450 --> 01:02:14,970
Mel:
Absolutely.

897
01:02:15,350 --> 01:02:22,230
Chas:
Right? Just simply impossible. So there's clearly a huge tonal shift across the movie.

898
01:02:22,690 --> 01:02:28,730
Chas:
But as watching it, I felt like I was a boiled frog because nothing threw me

899
01:02:28,730 --> 01:02:30,430
Chas:
out of the movie or made me take note.

900
01:02:30,430 --> 01:02:34,530
Chas:
Like everything, as it happened, I was like, it was escalating constantly,

901
01:02:34,530 --> 01:02:37,850
Chas:
but it felt like a narrative escalation rather than a tonal escalation.

902
01:02:38,010 --> 01:02:43,510
Chas:
And that just meant that they were managing my tonal experience of the film sublimely well.

903
01:02:43,790 --> 01:02:50,130
Chas:
Because the first five pages of this has really got nothing to do with Detroit's

904
01:02:50,130 --> 01:02:54,850
Chas:
art show, for example, does not belong in the first five pages of this film.

905
01:02:55,930 --> 01:03:01,570
Excerpts:
Tonight, we will have a transformative experience. In those containers,

906
01:03:01,850 --> 01:03:06,610
Excerpts:
there are broken cell phones, used bullet casings and water balloons filled with sheep's blood.

907
01:03:07,230 --> 01:03:11,610
Excerpts:
Cell phones can only work with a mineral coltan, which is found in Africa's Congo.

908
01:03:12,150 --> 01:03:17,990
Excerpts:
The profit involved in this has created hardship and wars. I will stand here.

909
01:03:18,470 --> 01:03:22,650
Excerpts:
If you feel so moved, you may throw the items in the containers at me.

910
01:03:23,090 --> 01:03:28,350
Excerpts:
While I'm standing here, I will be reciting excerpts from the timeless Motown

911
01:03:28,350 --> 01:03:32,450
Excerpts:
produced movie entitled The Last Dragon.

912
01:03:33,390 --> 01:03:38,070
Mel:
None of the plot events, I would venture to say, belong with the first five pages of this film.

913
01:03:38,150 --> 01:03:40,510
Mel:
The first five pages of this film could be Punch Drunk Love,

914
01:03:40,730 --> 01:03:44,190
Mel:
as what we were talking about earlier. Like, really, those fit.

915
01:03:44,370 --> 01:03:48,550
Mel:
And none of the rest of these plot points belong in Punch Drunk Love at all.

916
01:03:48,750 --> 01:03:53,770
Chas:
Yeah. And so you buy two African-American men, like that Danny Glover sort of

917
01:03:53,770 --> 01:03:58,670
Chas:
mentor scene, you buy using the white voice, right, and them describing it.

918
01:03:58,670 --> 01:04:00,050
Chas:
And it's interesting that on

919
01:04:00,050 --> 01:04:04,290
Chas:
the page, they describe what the white voice is before they bring it in.

920
01:04:04,610 --> 01:04:10,290
Chas:
So they tell us what it means so that even though that overdub is so obvious

921
01:04:10,290 --> 01:04:15,910
Chas:
and so like surreal and so bonkers, right? Like deliberately shaking us.

922
01:04:16,010 --> 01:04:16,390
Mel:
Jarring.

923
01:04:16,650 --> 01:04:16,850
Chas:
Yeah.

924
01:04:17,030 --> 01:04:17,250
Mel:
Yeah.

925
01:04:17,430 --> 01:04:24,390
Chas:
It doesn't feel that way because they've taken like a whole page to tell us what's about to hit us.

926
01:04:24,390 --> 01:04:28,910
Chas:
I don't know if that's throughout, but the moment that I think that you told

927
01:04:28,910 --> 01:04:33,430
Chas:
me you think is the tonal shift, and I'm fully prepared to be convinced on this

928
01:04:33,430 --> 01:04:38,650
Chas:
front that it is a significant tonal shift, I think it's really important what comes just before it.

929
01:04:38,650 --> 01:04:44,690
Mel:
Right. So I think that, so I'm skipping forward to page 68.

930
01:04:44,910 --> 01:04:49,270
Mel:
I do agree that there is a lot of gradual escalation up into this point.

931
01:04:49,730 --> 01:04:53,770
Mel:
Lots of other things happen. Though I think does happen is I would say that

932
01:04:53,770 --> 01:05:02,050
Mel:
we go from a funny, surreal satire into a horror surrealist satire.

933
01:05:02,050 --> 01:05:08,470
Mel:
So you've got two of the same three tones, but there's a massive shift from

934
01:05:08,470 --> 01:05:12,130
Mel:
a funny and uncomfortable straight into horror.

935
01:05:12,470 --> 01:05:18,010
Mel:
And the tone is signposted in two really specific ways.

936
01:05:18,350 --> 01:05:26,430
Mel:
The first is, so the actual shift, I would argue, happens on page 71.

937
01:05:26,570 --> 01:05:32,050
Mel:
And it starts getting signposted on page 68. And the first way it starts getting

938
01:05:32,050 --> 01:05:36,310
Mel:
signposted is we start using different words for colors.

939
01:05:36,550 --> 01:05:42,530
Mel:
So he, Boots Riley has used all, like, I literally went through and highlighted them all.

940
01:05:42,610 --> 01:05:45,850
Mel:
My script is pockmarked with him using all these colors and

941
01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:49,120
Mel:
all white, blue, purple, gold.

942
01:05:49,420 --> 01:05:53,260
Mel:
And suddenly, and in big print and in dialogue, people say Cassius Green's name

943
01:05:53,260 --> 01:05:55,900
Mel:
all the time. And this is, you can't say, oh, it just happens.

944
01:05:56,040 --> 01:06:00,540
Mel:
This is literally a script that makes a huge deal about A, black,

945
01:06:00,900 --> 01:06:05,000
Mel:
B, white, and C, the fact that the main character's name is Cassius Green,

946
01:06:05,160 --> 01:06:09,320
Mel:
which is repeated over and over and over and over again. It's in a script about capitalism.

947
01:06:09,520 --> 01:06:12,600
Chas:
And Cassius is shortened to cash. Yes.

948
01:06:13,220 --> 01:06:17,980
Mel:
You cannot tell me that it is just a coincidence. It's suddenly on page 68.

949
01:06:18,280 --> 01:06:19,780
Mel:
Stuff starts being referred to.

950
01:06:19,920 --> 01:06:22,920
Chas:
I mean, isn't that a line in there somewhere? Like, doesn't he say to Detroit

951
01:06:22,920 --> 01:06:24,740
Chas:
at some point, isn't Cash Green?

952
01:06:24,920 --> 01:06:27,320
Mel:
They talk about Cash, I think more than once.

953
01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:27,620
Chas:
Yeah.

954
01:06:27,900 --> 01:06:32,340
Mel:
I think he calls it out. And then I think someone else uses it almost as like

955
01:06:32,340 --> 01:06:34,920
Mel:
a offhand term about, oh, yo, Cash.

956
01:06:35,220 --> 01:06:37,120
Chas:
Like, this film is not subtle.

957
01:06:37,120 --> 01:06:40,540
Mel:
They also, interestingly, somebody, I don't remember who it is,

958
01:06:40,640 --> 01:06:43,920
Mel:
but someone when he's doing the telemarketing picks up and they go yellow,

959
01:06:44,260 --> 01:06:46,960
Mel:
which is kind of slang, but it's also a color.

960
01:06:47,320 --> 01:06:51,620
Mel:
And again, this is very intentional in a script that is literally all about color.

961
01:06:51,620 --> 01:06:54,580
Mel:
So all of a sudden the words for

962
01:06:54,580 --> 01:06:58,080
Mel:
color change the fancy suit guy says

963
01:06:58,080 --> 01:07:00,880
Mel:
uh oh go through this third door it's the

964
01:07:00,880 --> 01:07:06,780
Mel:
magenta door and then he finally gets to the door which is painted magenta and

965
01:07:06,780 --> 01:07:10,800
Mel:
goes through it and then we're going in and we talk about the thing he's talking

966
01:07:10,800 --> 01:07:15,040
Mel:
to steve and then he says you know oh i have to you know i actually have to

967
01:07:15,040 --> 01:07:19,900
Mel:
piss and steve says okay fine It's the jade colored door. Hurry back.

968
01:07:20,300 --> 01:07:23,680
Mel:
And then he goes and finds the jade door and rushes in.

969
01:07:23,800 --> 01:07:26,920
Mel:
And then it becomes a plot point in a couple of pages that they get into an

970
01:07:26,920 --> 01:07:28,520
Mel:
argument. He's like, I went through the jade door. He's like,

971
01:07:28,580 --> 01:07:29,960
Mel:
no, that door is clearly olive.

972
01:07:30,280 --> 01:07:30,480
Chas:
Mm-hmm.

973
01:07:36,890 --> 01:07:40,090
Excerpts:
Jade door. No, that's an olive door. That's very clearly an olive door.

974
01:07:40,230 --> 01:07:42,810
Excerpts:
That's a jade door. You got to get me the fuck out of here.

975
01:07:42,970 --> 01:07:47,190
Mel:
The color usage shifts, which is to signal to us that something's about to happen.

976
01:07:47,770 --> 01:07:50,530
Chas:
Yeah. So let's just set the scene ever so slightly.

977
01:07:50,970 --> 01:07:51,210
Mel:
Yes.

978
01:07:51,770 --> 01:07:57,550
Chas:
Cassius has become a power caller, which has led him to get into the telemarketing

979
01:07:57,550 --> 01:07:59,990
Chas:
of selling weapons and slavery.

980
01:08:00,370 --> 01:08:02,510
Chas:
And, you know, his first call wins $10 million.

981
01:08:03,310 --> 01:08:08,530
Chas:
And their main client is Worry Free is the prison decorated by interior decorator.

982
01:08:08,970 --> 01:08:14,630
Chas:
And they are at a party of Steve Lift, who I think is quite appropriately now

983
01:08:14,630 --> 01:08:17,230
Chas:
played by Armie Hammer. Like it actually works.

984
01:08:17,350 --> 01:08:20,330
Mel:
Delicious casting. Actually works so much better now.

985
01:08:20,950 --> 01:08:28,570
Chas:
Who is the CEO of Worry Free, but is also basically playing a Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg.

986
01:08:28,790 --> 01:08:33,930
Mel:
Well, he's playing the Winklevosset twins, you know, 20 years later in Corporate World.

987
01:08:34,030 --> 01:08:37,290
Mel:
Like absolutely it works on so many levels yeah so yeah

988
01:08:37,290 --> 01:08:40,130
Mel:
so steve has invited him to this party which has

989
01:08:40,130 --> 01:08:43,090
Mel:
gotten wildly out of control um and then

990
01:08:43,090 --> 01:08:46,330
Mel:
you know invites him up to his private room there's all these signposts

991
01:08:46,330 --> 01:08:49,650
Mel:
about horses which have been sprinkled throughout he

992
01:08:49,650 --> 01:08:56,550
Mel:
snorts a large line of cocaine off of a plate like a commemorative horse racing

993
01:08:56,550 --> 01:09:01,290
Mel:
plate and then steve says you know i want to propose something to you we need

994
01:09:01,290 --> 01:09:04,730
Mel:
you at worry free i see something in you they have you know The conversation

995
01:09:04,730 --> 01:09:06,670
Mel:
goes, and then Kesha says, I need to take a piss.

996
01:09:07,050 --> 01:09:09,110
Mel:
And he's kind of annoyed.

997
01:09:09,530 --> 01:09:14,150
Mel:
Steve's like, uh, and ignores him, starts playing a commercial on the TV.

998
01:09:14,430 --> 01:09:18,270
Mel:
And Kesha's like, I actually hella have to piss. And then he's like,

999
01:09:18,390 --> 01:09:21,830
Mel:
fine, out the door. It's the jade-colored door. Hurry back.

1000
01:09:22,510 --> 01:09:27,050
Mel:
Kesha just rushes out the door, goes to the right, finds the jade door, and rushes in.

1001
01:09:28,060 --> 01:09:36,220
Mel:
This is the scene where most people argue that this film makes a genre jump, like a huge genre swing.

1002
01:09:36,380 --> 01:09:41,040
Mel:
I argue it does not make a genre swing at all, that it stays within the genre.

1003
01:09:41,840 --> 01:09:46,240
Mel:
And this is what I have created. I know we are an audio medium,

1004
01:09:46,380 --> 01:09:49,020
Mel:
but I have created a visual for you, which we will get to in a moment.

1005
01:09:49,300 --> 01:09:53,920
Mel:
But he goes into the washroom and there's one stall and he's like,

1006
01:09:53,980 --> 01:09:55,380
Mel:
oh, God damn it, someone's in there.

1007
01:09:55,520 --> 01:09:57,580
Chas:
I mean, it's a dirty...

1008
01:09:57,580 --> 01:09:58,840
Mel:
Oh, it's grody.

1009
01:09:59,260 --> 01:10:04,880
Chas:
Like medicinal. It looks like a sort of unloved army barracks bathroom,

1010
01:10:05,380 --> 01:10:07,820
Chas:
potentially also like a slaughterhouse bathroom.

1011
01:10:08,080 --> 01:10:11,700
Mel:
And it's very dingy. Like suddenly there's like a lot of, you know,

1012
01:10:11,860 --> 01:10:15,780
Mel:
haze machines have been pumping for five minutes before they shot this scene

1013
01:10:15,780 --> 01:10:19,080
Mel:
to make it feel like the air feel oppressive and heavy.

1014
01:10:19,260 --> 01:10:21,000
Chas:
Should we use Boots' own description?

1015
01:10:21,260 --> 01:10:21,580
Mel:
Yes.

1016
01:10:21,580 --> 01:10:27,460
Chas:
The room is darkly lit, yet sanitary looking room with bathroom tiles on the

1017
01:10:27,460 --> 01:10:32,720
Chas:
walls, a sink, a mirror, some curtains, and what seems like showers and one metallic stall.

1018
01:10:33,040 --> 01:10:36,400
Chas:
We can see that there's a guy in the stall because we see his head.

1019
01:10:36,540 --> 01:10:39,620
Mel:
Now again, so that's four lines, four giant lines of text.

1020
01:10:40,020 --> 01:10:44,120
Mel:
Guy says, can you help me? Then there's more lines of text. And then this is

1021
01:10:44,120 --> 01:10:47,360
Mel:
what happens where everyone says, suddenly this film, most people would say

1022
01:10:47,360 --> 01:10:49,360
Mel:
jumps the shark, genre swing,

1023
01:10:50,160 --> 01:10:54,140
Mel:
Cassius opens the stall door and Guy in stall falls out onto the floor,

1024
01:10:54,280 --> 01:10:57,160
Mel:
revealing that he's a naked part man, part horse line break.

1025
01:10:57,340 --> 01:11:01,260
Mel:
There is no hair on his entire man horse body, save for the normal patches of

1026
01:11:01,260 --> 01:11:02,800
Mel:
hair that a hairy man might have.

1027
01:11:03,160 --> 01:11:07,620
Mel:
Unlike a mythical centaur, there are no extra limbs. His hind legs have human feet.

1028
01:11:07,760 --> 01:11:12,620
Mel:
His front legs have human hands. He is very sweaty and has humongous horse-like nostrils.

1029
01:11:12,780 --> 01:11:15,740
Mel:
So that is all one giant paragraph. Yeah.

1030
01:11:27,290 --> 01:11:30,570
Mel:
And all of a sudden, everything shifts.

1031
01:11:30,790 --> 01:11:34,590
Mel:
For the first time, there are lines that are describing the exact same thing

1032
01:11:34,590 --> 01:11:37,530
Mel:
that every single sentence is its own line break.

1033
01:11:37,950 --> 01:11:44,910
Mel:
And it's very discombobulating when we've had multiple scenes that have had

1034
01:11:44,910 --> 01:11:51,050
Mel:
long descriptions that are several sentence paragraphs that kind of flow that

1035
01:11:51,050 --> 01:11:52,050
Mel:
are describing this thing.

1036
01:11:52,050 --> 01:11:54,730
Mel:
All of a sudden, his human eyes show that he is terrified.

1037
01:11:55,030 --> 01:11:58,650
Mel:
Full line break. He is chained and collared to the stall. Full line break.

1038
01:11:58,850 --> 01:12:01,230
Mel:
He lets out a chilling whinny. Full line break.

1039
01:12:01,530 --> 01:12:04,830
Mel:
Cassius is suddenly terrified and screams out while backing up.

1040
01:12:05,150 --> 01:12:06,550
Mel:
Full line break. Cassius.

1041
01:12:07,030 --> 01:12:09,570
Mel:
Fuck, shit. Fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck. What the fuck? What the fuck?

1042
01:12:09,730 --> 01:12:11,830
Mel:
Guy in the stall. Please, help me. I'm hurting.

1043
01:12:12,130 --> 01:12:15,730
Mel:
He lets out a whinny. Full line break. So we've gone from this,

1044
01:12:15,930 --> 01:12:18,030
Mel:
here's a description of the room.

1045
01:12:18,250 --> 01:12:22,790
Mel:
Here's a description of the man to like the moment Cassius registers what has happened.

1046
01:12:23,290 --> 01:12:25,950
Mel:
Everything is just like, bam, bam,

1047
01:12:26,210 --> 01:12:31,070
Mel:
bam, very short, sharp, and discombobulating. So the tone has shifted.

1048
01:12:31,790 --> 01:12:37,590
Mel:
And then Cassius flees and then starts seeing all these other man horses.

1049
01:12:38,450 --> 01:12:42,730
Mel:
And there's other heads of men and women stick out of the curtains,

1050
01:12:42,930 --> 01:12:45,330
Mel:
whinnying, neighing, and saying, please help us.

1051
01:12:45,450 --> 01:12:48,490
Mel:
And he bolts out of the door straight into Steve lift

1052
01:12:48,490 --> 01:12:51,930
Mel:
who's blocking his exit so this scene

1053
01:12:51,930 --> 01:12:55,130
Mel:
halfway through suddenly shifts and then in

1054
01:12:55,130 --> 01:12:58,290
Mel:
a very interesting move steve tries to

1055
01:12:58,290 --> 01:13:01,210
Mel:
calm cassius down cassius can basically only say

1056
01:13:01,210 --> 01:13:04,590
Mel:
what the fuck and then a smash cut back

1057
01:13:04,590 --> 01:13:07,550
Mel:
into the room where cassius essentially holds a

1058
01:13:07,550 --> 01:13:10,230
Mel:
gun on him and is like let me explain remember that

1059
01:13:10,230 --> 01:13:13,790
Mel:
commercial that i was about to show you all right we're gonna watch this commercial

1060
01:13:13,790 --> 01:13:19,990
Mel:
now and then he runs this dystopian commercial about how he's created a drug

1061
01:13:19,990 --> 01:13:28,050
Mel:
that will transform all of his employees into horse people and.

1062
01:13:28,050 --> 01:13:33,490
Excerpts:
So our scientists have discovered a way a chemical change to make humans stronger

1063
01:13:33,490 --> 01:13:38,070
Excerpts:
more obedient more durable and therefore more efficient and profitable,

1064
01:13:39,290 --> 01:13:45,730
Excerpts:
We are proud to announce to our shareholders that a new day in human productivity is dawning.

1065
01:13:46,530 --> 01:13:52,770
Excerpts:
Our workforce of equisapiens will make Worry Free the most profitable company in human history.

1066
01:13:53,150 --> 01:13:56,690
Mel:
And this, again, isn't quite on the page.

1067
01:13:57,090 --> 01:14:02,950
Mel:
As in, it's not explicit in the big text, but I think it's very signposted and

1068
01:14:02,950 --> 01:14:08,910
Mel:
implicit in the dialogue, where Steve, played by him, is completely calm about all of this.

1069
01:14:08,910 --> 01:14:13,870
Mel:
He's completely matter-of-fact, where Cassius can just say, what the fuck?

1070
01:14:14,190 --> 01:14:18,210
Mel:
Ah, Steve's like, dude, I can't let you go without explaining.

1071
01:14:18,270 --> 01:14:21,990
Mel:
If you would have seen the video, you wouldn't have gotten scared.

1072
01:14:22,190 --> 01:14:28,110
Mel:
Let me show you this video. And now, here is my picture's worth a thousand words

1073
01:14:28,110 --> 01:14:35,230
Mel:
proof of why this is not, in fact, a sci-fi, but is actually just a satire.

1074
01:14:35,230 --> 01:14:43,750
Mel:
So these are still frames from the video that Steve shows next to Brian Johnson.

1075
01:14:43,990 --> 01:14:47,270
Mel:
I'm calling this sorry to Brian Johnson you. And I think I'm going to make this

1076
01:14:47,270 --> 01:14:51,570
Mel:
a repeating bit within my life where hilariously Bucciarali has essentially

1077
01:14:51,570 --> 01:14:54,830
Mel:
predicted Brian Johnson 10 years ago.

1078
01:14:54,830 --> 01:15:00,990
Mel:
Because the video of how they are trying to optimize humans literally looks

1079
01:15:00,990 --> 01:15:05,250
Mel:
exactly like the guy who is drinking his own kid's blood to try to live forever,

1080
01:15:05,410 --> 01:15:11,630
Mel:
down to the white boxer shorts and poses that they are each making. It is horrific.

1081
01:15:12,170 --> 01:15:18,670
Mel:
And yes, readers, I will put this in the show notes for you because it is fascinating.

1082
01:15:18,670 --> 01:15:26,070
Mel:
But I argue that the shift when he sees the horse people is not a genre change.

1083
01:15:26,250 --> 01:15:30,870
Mel:
The dystopia has been completely there from the get go.

1084
01:15:31,030 --> 01:15:35,690
Mel:
Sure, it's been escalating as Cassius gets deeper and deeper into the system.

1085
01:15:37,090 --> 01:15:43,270
Mel:
The whole thing is there, except it's funny until he sees it fully realized

1086
01:15:43,270 --> 01:15:46,030
Mel:
in front of him and the shift is into horror.

1087
01:15:46,330 --> 01:15:50,310
Chas:
Yeah. I think I agree now that it's a tonal shift.

1088
01:15:50,530 --> 01:15:53,430
Chas:
Certainly, I really admire what he's doing on the page to really,

1089
01:15:53,670 --> 01:15:56,550
Chas:
again, through contrast, draw our attention to it.

1090
01:15:56,770 --> 01:16:02,550
Chas:
It worked for me because this film is surreal and to me it was like an escalation of the surreal.

1091
01:16:02,550 --> 01:16:05,570
Chas:
But what makes it a tonal shift is

1092
01:16:05,570 --> 01:16:11,950
Chas:
that they did do it this way around like if Seablift had successfully made Cassius

1093
01:16:11,950 --> 01:16:18,510
Chas:
watch the ad which in the script is directed by Michelle Gondry and on film

1094
01:16:18,510 --> 01:16:23,430
Chas:
is Michelle Dongery I think yeah in the script it's.

1095
01:16:23,430 --> 01:16:26,470
Mel:
Signpost Michelle Gondry but clearly they've had to change it probably for legal.

1096
01:16:26,470 --> 01:16:27,390
Chas:
Reasons so.

1097
01:16:27,390 --> 01:16:29,690
Mel:
The script is signaling to us what the tone.

1098
01:16:29,690 --> 01:16:30,390
Chas:
Is and.

1099
01:16:30,390 --> 01:16:34,910
Mel:
Then it's clearly a riff but it's like michael don.

1100
01:16:34,910 --> 01:16:36,670
Chas:
Dongri or something like.

1101
01:16:36,670 --> 01:16:37,790
Mel:
That in the finished film yeah.

1102
01:16:37,790 --> 01:16:43,230
Chas:
But if he had managed to show us that film first so that we were expecting horse

1103
01:16:43,230 --> 01:16:48,190
Chas:
people then it would have felt i think less like a tonal shift what they've

1104
01:16:48,190 --> 01:16:52,570
Chas:
really deliberately done it this way around so that we're confronted with the

1105
01:16:52,570 --> 01:16:57,610
Chas:
horror of i mean it's the dehumanization of people by a.

1106
01:16:57,610 --> 01:16:59,010
Mel:
Giant corporation like Amazon.

1107
01:16:59,010 --> 01:17:04,910
Chas:
Capitalism and tech companies yeah and that's and the the satire of it is that

1108
01:17:04,910 --> 01:17:10,150
Chas:
eventually we'll get to a point where they see people so little as people that

1109
01:17:10,150 --> 01:17:12,330
Chas:
they can be equisapiens and.

1110
01:17:12,330 --> 01:17:13,070
Mel:
He treats it,

1111
01:17:13,590 --> 01:17:16,510
Mel:
The character treats it like we're helping these people.

1112
01:17:16,710 --> 01:17:21,990
Mel:
Like, why would they want to feel as much pain in their broken down bodies having

1113
01:17:21,990 --> 01:17:26,650
Mel:
to go through all of these these grueling jobs when we can simply pump them

1114
01:17:26,650 --> 01:17:29,170
Mel:
full of things so that they will feel so much better about it?

1115
01:17:29,850 --> 01:17:35,910
Mel:
And I think the real genius is that part of the plot up till this point,

1116
01:17:35,970 --> 01:17:38,270
Mel:
and again, there's so much in this film,

1117
01:17:38,550 --> 01:17:45,330
Mel:
is that Cassius has been butting heads with his girlfriend and one of his co-workers and et cetera.

1118
01:17:45,330 --> 01:17:48,070
Mel:
And the deeper and deeper he gets into this the more

1119
01:17:48,070 --> 01:17:50,790
Mel:
he's sort of tantalized and buying the

1120
01:17:50,790 --> 01:17:55,090
Mel:
work thing but also he's not really seeing how problematic

1121
01:17:55,090 --> 01:18:00,090
Mel:
it is and then him being confronted with this the shift from oh isn't this it's

1122
01:18:00,090 --> 01:18:05,130
Mel:
kind of over the top and it's a bit ridiculous he's uncomfortable but it shifts

1123
01:18:05,130 --> 01:18:12,190
Mel:
tones so hard into horror for him and for us that the impact is In.

1124
01:18:12,190 --> 01:18:15,870
Chas:
The pattern of threes, they have signposted for Cassius twice.

1125
01:18:16,350 --> 01:18:17,830
Chas:
Well, no, a multiple of times.

1126
01:18:18,030 --> 01:18:21,870
Chas:
So, making moral compromises until he finds himself in this position.

1127
01:18:22,130 --> 01:18:27,090
Chas:
So, initially, there's a guy played by Steven Yeun in the telemarketers,

1128
01:18:27,210 --> 01:18:31,190
Chas:
and they're starting to try to unionize the shop, as it were.

1129
01:18:31,190 --> 01:18:34,070
Chas:
And initially Cassius is on

1130
01:18:34,070 --> 01:18:37,070
Chas:
board and it reveals unbeknownst to Cassius that

1131
01:18:37,070 --> 01:18:40,590
Chas:
his girlfriend Detroit is also a separate

1132
01:18:40,590 --> 01:18:44,110
Chas:
workers rights activist as well as a performance

1133
01:18:44,110 --> 01:18:47,890
Chas:
artist whose performance art is about exploitation so

1134
01:18:47,890 --> 01:18:53,790
Chas:
there's all this like bonkers tie and stuff but after the first strike that

1135
01:18:53,790 --> 01:18:57,970
Chas:
they go on mini strike the first bit of collective action that they do Cassius

1136
01:18:57,970 --> 01:18:59,270
Chas:
offered a promotion to be a power

1137
01:18:59,270 --> 01:19:04,810
Chas:
caller and he takes it and then on his first day as a power caller Mr.

1138
01:19:05,150 --> 01:19:08,030
Chas:
Blank or Mr. Beep also in the

1139
01:19:08,030 --> 01:19:13,510
Chas:
is it fancy suit guy on the script tells them what they're selling and Cassius

1140
01:19:13,510 --> 01:19:18,090
Chas:
is like I don't think I'm comfortable with this and they show him his starting

1141
01:19:18,090 --> 01:19:23,970
Chas:
salary and he's like yes all right and then you've got two escalation scenes

1142
01:19:23,970 --> 01:19:26,870
Chas:
of Cassius being a scab with escalating stakes,

1143
01:19:27,070 --> 01:19:30,370
Chas:
like Detroit saying it on the second one, if you cross that picket line again,

1144
01:19:30,390 --> 01:19:32,110
Chas:
we're not going to be together. And he crosses it.

1145
01:19:32,510 --> 01:19:37,450
Chas:
So there's all the way up to this point. And this is the line where,

1146
01:19:37,450 --> 01:19:42,590
Chas:
you know, Steve Lift offers him a hundred million dollars to become a equisapien.

1147
01:19:42,710 --> 01:19:46,170
Mel:
The Martin Luther King Jr. of horse people.

1148
01:19:46,310 --> 01:19:46,410
Chas:
Yeah.

1149
01:19:46,610 --> 01:19:46,790
Mel:
Literally.

1150
01:19:47,090 --> 01:19:49,950
Excerpts:
I'm a manager for fucking horse people.

1151
01:19:53,070 --> 01:19:56,670
Excerpts:
A Gwisabian Martin Luther King Jr.

1152
01:19:57,510 --> 01:20:01,410
Excerpts:
One that we create. One that we control.

1153
01:20:01,930 --> 01:20:06,650
Excerpts:
So you want to have a false leader for these fucking horse people,

1154
01:20:06,850 --> 01:20:08,970
Excerpts:
but at the same time he works for you?

1155
01:20:09,410 --> 01:20:11,510
Excerpts:
Yeah. Keeps shit simple.

1156
01:20:11,790 --> 01:20:16,070
Chas:
And Cash just says no. And one of my favorite points in this whole movie that

1157
01:20:16,070 --> 01:20:19,710
Chas:
made me feel like the Brazil connection,

1158
01:20:20,650 --> 01:20:23,630
Chas:
was the only way cash can get

1159
01:20:23,630 --> 01:20:26,730
Chas:
the evidence that he has of this out is by

1160
01:20:26,730 --> 01:20:29,610
Chas:
going on this talk show which is going to

1161
01:20:29,610 --> 01:20:32,490
Chas:
beat the shit out of you or something like that gets the shit beaten out of

1162
01:20:32,490 --> 01:20:38,230
Chas:
him gets dumped in a vat of shit literal shit is standing there coated in shit

1163
01:20:38,230 --> 01:20:43,730
Chas:
so that they will play the video evidence he has that steve lyft is turning

1164
01:20:43,730 --> 01:20:48,410
Chas:
people into horses and steve lyft's company's stock explodes yeah.

1165
01:20:48,410 --> 01:20:49,830
Mel:
It just goes through the roof.

1166
01:20:49,830 --> 01:20:54,810
Excerpts:
It's been one day since a viral celebrity leaked to the world's new scientific

1167
01:20:54,810 --> 01:20:59,830
Excerpts:
achievements made by worry-free and their genius ceo steve lift which caused

1168
01:20:59,830 --> 01:21:04,770
Excerpts:
worry-free stocks to skyrocket at a rate faster than any other company in history.

1169
01:21:04,770 --> 01:21:10,910
Chas:
And it just feels like we're in that kind of dystopia now i i love the the commentary

1170
01:21:10,910 --> 01:21:16,250
Chas:
this film is very unsubtle it's almost this feels akin to the substance in like

1171
01:21:16,250 --> 01:21:18,790
Chas:
how on its sleeve it is but.

1172
01:21:18,790 --> 01:21:24,610
Mel:
I will also point out that after this scene where he confronts him once we're

1173
01:21:24,610 --> 01:21:32,130
Mel:
back into quote unquote that world that boots shifts back into using basic words for.

1174
01:21:32,130 --> 01:21:33,610
Chas:
Primarily colors he shifts.

1175
01:21:33,610 --> 01:21:37,250
Mel:
Back into using the giant chunks of text.

1176
01:21:37,250 --> 01:21:38,410
Chas:
And describing.

1177
01:21:38,410 --> 01:21:44,290
Mel:
The things like, like that section is so horror laden, but then it's almost

1178
01:21:44,290 --> 01:21:49,210
Mel:
as though, well, we're going back to where the rest of the world is just accepting

1179
01:21:49,210 --> 01:21:52,810
Mel:
this as given and not seeing the full horrors of it.

1180
01:21:53,030 --> 01:21:54,730
Chas:
Yeah. They have soft boiled frogs as well.

1181
01:21:54,850 --> 01:21:58,590
Mel:
Right. Exactly. And I think that is incredibly telling

1182
01:21:58,590 --> 01:22:01,450
Mel:
and it's even more effective because of

1183
01:22:01,450 --> 01:22:04,650
Mel:
the contrasts around it that you have the big moment

1184
01:22:04,650 --> 01:22:08,170
Mel:
and then it's like we've had this massive horror

1185
01:22:08,170 --> 01:22:11,030
Mel:
and then oh he's back

1186
01:22:11,030 --> 01:22:15,110
Mel:
into the funny uncomfortable surreal satire

1187
01:22:15,110 --> 01:22:23,150
Mel:
as opposed to the deep horrifying body horror surrealist world and those shifts

1188
01:22:23,150 --> 01:22:28,430
Mel:
but now we know it exists we know it's there but we're not seeing it represented

1189
01:22:28,430 --> 01:22:33,110
Mel:
on the page the same way that we don't see it represented for a while again on the screen.

1190
01:22:33,310 --> 01:22:38,390
Chas:
I want to make two observations about perhaps why they also made that tonal

1191
01:22:38,390 --> 01:22:42,230
Chas:
shift work for me, where I'm like, yeah, of course there's horse people in this movie.

1192
01:22:43,410 --> 01:22:43,850
Mel:
So-

1193
01:22:44,620 --> 01:22:48,280
Chas:
First of all, I hadn't noticed this because I hadn't got to this point,

1194
01:22:48,300 --> 01:22:50,500
Chas:
but once they've established the white guy voice,

1195
01:22:51,040 --> 01:22:55,620
Chas:
every single character, the name of a character in dialogue,

1196
01:22:55,620 --> 01:23:00,160
Chas:
when they're using the white guy voice, it will say Cassius dash overdubbed

1197
01:23:00,160 --> 01:23:03,560
Chas:
by a white actor, every single character name.

1198
01:23:03,720 --> 01:23:08,260
Chas:
So, they're just like hammering it visually that this is happening,

1199
01:23:09,000 --> 01:23:12,740
Chas:
repeated again and again and again for both Cassius, for Detroit,

1200
01:23:12,940 --> 01:23:15,900
Chas:
although I don't think detroit was overdubbed by a british actor i feel like tessa

1201
01:23:15,900 --> 01:23:19,360
Chas:
thompson was just doing a british voice but

1202
01:23:19,360 --> 01:23:24,020
Chas:
the the reason why i felt primed for equisapiens

1203
01:23:24,020 --> 01:23:30,200
Chas:
is at this party there's a scene where they're all sitting in a like amphitheater

1204
01:23:30,200 --> 01:23:36,000
Chas:
around a it's a room uh with a fireplace but they're all seated in like a tiered

1205
01:23:36,000 --> 01:23:41,480
Chas:
seating of like five tiers and it's just cassius sitting on the floor in front of the fireplace.

1206
01:23:42,380 --> 01:23:47,320
Chas:
And it's just nonstop dehumanization of him.

1207
01:23:48,520 --> 01:23:51,860
Excerpts:
What about you, Cash? You ever had to bust a cap in anybody's ass?

1208
01:23:53,620 --> 01:23:57,380
Excerpts:
Green, no. Shut the fuck up. Talking to the man of the hour here.

1209
01:23:57,840 --> 01:23:58,760
Excerpts:
Come on, man, have a seat.

1210
01:24:00,680 --> 01:24:05,700
Excerpts:
Come on. I want to hear about some of that Oakland gangster shit, man.

1211
01:24:06,520 --> 01:24:08,800
Excerpts:
Oaktown. Just right here? Just sit down?

1212
01:24:10,140 --> 01:24:18,020
Excerpts:
Well, uh, luckily, I have not had to put a cap in anyone's ass or head or anything.

1213
01:24:18,700 --> 01:24:21,160
Excerpts:
So I don't have any cool stories. Sorry.

1214
01:24:22,380 --> 01:24:25,820
Excerpts:
All right. Well, I mean, give us something, right?

1215
01:24:26,540 --> 01:24:29,880
Excerpts:
These boring cunts are at every single one of my parties. You're different,

1216
01:24:30,020 --> 01:24:31,300
Excerpts:
man. Make an impression.

1217
01:24:31,880 --> 01:24:35,280
Excerpts:
At least take off the white voice. And I know you can bust a rap, right?

1218
01:24:35,600 --> 01:24:39,740
Excerpts:
No, actually, I can't. I don't know. Bullshit. Come on. Bullshit. I can't, man.

1219
01:24:39,820 --> 01:24:43,660
Excerpts:
I mean, I can listen to rap well, but I just can't rap. It's actually embarrassing.

1220
01:24:44,160 --> 01:24:49,540
Chas:
Like, it's just so overemphasizing how they see him, that they see him as a

1221
01:24:49,540 --> 01:24:53,100
Chas:
product of his race and nothing else and make him rap.

1222
01:24:53,520 --> 01:24:55,520
Chas:
And the rap is...

1223
01:24:55,520 --> 01:24:57,980
Excerpts:
Nigga shit, nigga shit, nigga, nigga, nigga shit.

1224
01:24:58,180 --> 01:25:01,940
Mel:
Oh, it starts terrible. He has like a couple of lines that are just like the

1225
01:25:01,940 --> 01:25:05,420
Mel:
worst, you know, like kindergarten you've ever done. and then he starts doing

1226
01:25:05,420 --> 01:25:12,120
Mel:
other things and then suddenly all this giant group of white people start essentially mosh pitting.

1227
01:25:12,120 --> 01:25:18,000
Chas:
To it and shouting it back at him yep and so he had just been so dehumanized

1228
01:25:18,000 --> 01:25:23,620
Chas:
and he's in this like the party is also escalated because like they're in this

1229
01:25:23,620 --> 01:25:28,320
Chas:
there's this tracking shot it's following the fancy man to go and find cassius just through Like,

1230
01:25:28,560 --> 01:25:32,320
Chas:
eyes wide shut almost levels of sexual activity around them.

1231
01:25:32,960 --> 01:25:37,780
Chas:
And then it's the only line in the whole film where Fancy Suit Guy does not

1232
01:25:37,780 --> 01:25:40,980
Chas:
use his white guy voice. And this is what he says.

1233
01:25:42,840 --> 01:25:44,020
Excerpts:
Look here, young blood.

1234
01:25:58,970 --> 01:26:05,550
Chas:
And it's hugely powerful. So I'm primed. Like the surrealism is jacking up.

1235
01:26:05,690 --> 01:26:10,170
Chas:
You've got the color cues changing. You've been exposed to Armie Hammer.

1236
01:26:10,770 --> 01:26:16,590
Chas:
Cassius has been completely dehumanized and I'm primed for something enormous to happen.

1237
01:26:16,810 --> 01:26:22,070
Chas:
So I think that's how there's been a lot of groundwork to that tonal shifts.

1238
01:26:22,330 --> 01:26:25,490
Mel:
Absolutely. I think it really works, but I

1239
01:26:25,490 --> 01:26:29,190
Mel:
don't think it works like you said if you read the first five pages and then

1240
01:26:29,190 --> 01:26:32,470
Mel:
suddenly you jump to that page it doesn't work at all but it has been growing

1241
01:26:32,470 --> 01:26:36,770
Mel:
to that point and then it it's like been slowly turning the dial yeah and then

1242
01:26:36,770 --> 01:26:40,790
Mel:
you know we've moved from like a one to an eight and now we're like and we're

1243
01:26:40,790 --> 01:26:44,970
Mel:
at an 11 but it works because it exactly bread crumbed you there yeah.

1244
01:26:44,970 --> 01:26:50,410
Chas:
Cool is there any other lessons that you took from that that helped you with

1245
01:26:50,410 --> 01:26:55,130
Chas:
this tonal shift of introducing equisapiens into this satirical dystopia.

1246
01:26:55,130 --> 01:26:57,970
Mel:
I think the the really interesting like

1247
01:26:57,970 --> 01:27:03,370
Mel:
there were different use of we talked a little bit about detroit's art and we

1248
01:27:03,370 --> 01:27:08,950
Mel:
also had a couple of other commercials and some animated sequences and so doing

1249
01:27:08,950 --> 01:27:16,510
Mel:
some pieces like that that are a little bit more visually out there as well really help set that up.

1250
01:27:16,510 --> 01:27:21,650
Chas:
And there's also like the the verhoeven like that show that that's been established

1251
01:27:21,650 --> 01:27:22,850
Chas:
a couple of times the game show just.

1252
01:27:22,850 --> 01:27:23,590
Mel:
Yeah people.

1253
01:27:23,590 --> 01:27:24,910
Chas:
Go on the show and get the shit beaten

1254
01:27:24,910 --> 01:27:30,050
Chas:
out of them it's almost like yeah verhoevenesque and it's overt satire.

1255
01:27:30,050 --> 01:27:35,970
Mel:
I mean yeah we've almost gotten to the point where we can't satirize it like

1256
01:27:35,970 --> 01:27:41,450
Mel:
you watch that show and go yeah that's about where we're at now cool cool cool

1257
01:27:41,450 --> 01:27:45,350
Mel:
cool cool but um Anyway, yes, in summary,

1258
01:27:45,690 --> 01:27:47,430
Mel:
Boots Riley, genius, the end.

1259
01:27:47,670 --> 01:27:51,350
Chas:
I was about to say a lot less bleak than our final film by the Daniels,

1260
01:27:51,410 --> 01:27:57,730
Chas:
but I think the very shift that we're going to talk about is open to interpretation

1261
01:27:57,730 --> 01:27:59,150
Chas:
as to whether it's bleak or not.

1262
01:28:00,070 --> 01:28:05,510
Mel:
Well, my thesis is bleak as fuck, so let's go with that. Cool.

1263
01:28:05,690 --> 01:28:07,550
Mel:
So let's talk about Swiss Army Man.

1264
01:28:13,370 --> 01:28:20,590
Excerpts:
Just have to remember that we're all here for a purpose and the universe picks

1265
01:28:20,590 --> 01:28:24,150
Excerpts:
its time. I need you to help me get home. Okay, buddy?

1266
01:28:27,410 --> 01:28:30,070
Excerpts:
Okay, buddy. No!

1267
01:29:13,770 --> 01:29:19,330
Chas:
Now, again, this has been on my watch list for an incredibly long time,

1268
01:29:19,410 --> 01:29:24,890
Chas:
as has, sorry to bother you, so really, really glad that this episode has made

1269
01:29:24,890 --> 01:29:26,350
Chas:
me watch both these films.

1270
01:29:26,710 --> 01:29:32,770
Chas:
But the fact that it was written and directed by the Daniels made me go,

1271
01:29:33,010 --> 01:29:34,690
Chas:
all right, yeah, sure, I'm on board.

1272
01:29:35,130 --> 01:29:39,870
Chas:
But what was it that drew you to choosing it for this episode?

1273
01:29:40,130 --> 01:29:43,610
Mel:
So this, for me, is a little bit like Shaun of the Dead for You,

1274
01:29:43,850 --> 01:29:50,410
Mel:
where the moment that I had in my head was so emotionally impactful when I very first saw it.

1275
01:29:50,490 --> 01:29:53,590
Mel:
And to be honest, still emotionally impactful now for me watching it,

1276
01:29:53,710 --> 01:29:56,310
Mel:
that I think I still do think it's a tonal shift.

1277
01:29:56,410 --> 01:30:02,450
Mel:
But I think I overemphasized in my head how much of a shift it is because of

1278
01:30:02,450 --> 01:30:04,470
Mel:
the emotional impact that it has.

1279
01:30:04,610 --> 01:30:09,270
Mel:
So it is a tonal shift that has a great emotional impact. And I think because

1280
01:30:09,270 --> 01:30:11,930
Mel:
of the emotional impact it has, it doesn't need to be huge it.

1281
01:30:11,930 --> 01:30:12,610
Chas:
Still works.

1282
01:30:12,610 --> 01:30:17,410
Mel:
But i certainly maybe over emphasize it in memory.

1283
01:30:17,410 --> 01:30:22,730
Chas:
Yeah so i'm gonna have a crack at summarizing the film we.

1284
01:30:22,730 --> 01:30:25,490
Mel:
Certainly did not pick ones that are easy to sum.

1285
01:30:25,490 --> 01:30:33,050
Chas:
Up so paul dano plays hank who the film opens on him trying to kill himself

1286
01:30:33,050 --> 01:30:36,170
Chas:
trying to hang himself as a castaway on a desert island And...

1287
01:30:36,750 --> 01:30:40,090
Chas:
Corpse played by Daniel Radcliffe washes

1288
01:30:40,090 --> 01:30:43,050
Chas:
up on the beach just as Hank is trying to hang

1289
01:30:43,050 --> 01:30:46,670
Chas:
himself and the corpse manages

1290
01:30:46,670 --> 01:30:56,010
Chas:
to fart so profusely that Hank is able to use ride the corpse like a jet ski

1291
01:30:56,010 --> 01:31:01,250
Chas:
and I think it even says like a dolphin on the page through the waves to get

1292
01:31:01,250 --> 01:31:04,370
Chas:
off the desert island and back to humanity,

1293
01:31:04,370 --> 01:31:09,590
Chas:
although they arrive at a deserted stretch of beach and are trying to make their

1294
01:31:09,590 --> 01:31:11,690
Chas:
way through heavy woods back home.

1295
01:31:11,930 --> 01:31:17,470
Chas:
And as they embark on this journey, Hank learns that the body,

1296
01:31:17,650 --> 01:31:20,370
Chas:
played by Daniel Radcliffe, has very special powers.

1297
01:31:20,610 --> 01:31:26,430
Chas:
It starts with just his flatulence, but then can produce water,

1298
01:31:26,790 --> 01:31:31,010
Chas:
like a well, like you crank an arm and water pours out of him.

1299
01:31:31,010 --> 01:31:33,430
Mel:
His dick's a compass, like let's just, you know.

1300
01:31:33,530 --> 01:31:39,830
Chas:
His dick is a compass, he can wind up and let him go to like be a jackknife,

1301
01:31:39,990 --> 01:31:45,530
Chas:
he becomes like a projectile shooter from his mouth, he is a Swiss army man.

1302
01:31:45,730 --> 01:31:50,590
Chas:
But most importantly is that the corpse, initially through mimicking Hank,

1303
01:31:50,630 --> 01:31:52,210
Chas:
is my understanding of how that works,

1304
01:31:52,510 --> 01:31:56,030
Chas:
starts talking and then as it starts talking,

1305
01:31:56,270 --> 01:32:03,070
Chas:
it's as if it's a child in the body of a man and because it's a child it's displaying

1306
01:32:03,070 --> 01:32:08,190
Chas:
all this innate curiosity while also because it's a corpse is inherently has

1307
01:32:08,190 --> 01:32:12,710
Chas:
things that might be considered gross by contemporary standards what.

1308
01:32:12,710 --> 01:32:19,830
Excerpts:
Do i do now hank nanny just look at them imagine them without their clothes

1309
01:32:19,830 --> 01:32:28,390
Excerpts:
on what what's underneath their clothes you know their boobs and vaginas butts,

1310
01:32:34,190 --> 01:32:37,350
Excerpts:
what do you do with those many.

1311
01:32:37,350 --> 01:32:44,110
Chas:
And hank is trying to teach the corpse which identifies as manny hank tries

1312
01:32:44,110 --> 01:32:48,450
Chas:
to teach manny about life and then throughout the film as they're working their

1313
01:32:48,450 --> 01:32:50,250
Chas:
way back to civilization,

1314
01:32:50,610 --> 01:32:53,490
Chas:
it turns out that Manny actually teaches Hank.

1315
01:32:54,030 --> 01:32:56,210
Chas:
About life. Is that a reasonable summary?

1316
01:32:56,390 --> 01:33:04,350
Mel:
That is a reasonable summary. And along the way, part of what we are learning in bits and pieces.

1317
01:33:04,650 --> 01:33:11,090
Mel:
So Hank has a cell phone that is almost entirely out of juice that he is looking

1318
01:33:11,090 --> 01:33:15,090
Mel:
at, like he turns it on every once in a while to see if he still has service

1319
01:33:15,090 --> 01:33:18,630
Mel:
and we can watch, you know, the battery go from 10% to 8% and down.

1320
01:33:18,790 --> 01:33:23,750
Mel:
And there's a photo of a girl on the phone that he's looking at that Manny starts

1321
01:33:23,750 --> 01:33:26,810
Mel:
asking about, and Hank kind of doesn't want to talk about it.

1322
01:33:26,910 --> 01:33:31,350
Mel:
So at first, you think maybe this is an ex, and they've had a breakup,

1323
01:33:31,470 --> 01:33:33,430
Mel:
and maybe that's why he was trying to hang himself.

1324
01:33:33,610 --> 01:33:38,150
Mel:
And then he starts telling Manny a story of how they met on the bus,

1325
01:33:38,190 --> 01:33:42,990
Mel:
and we see it from sort of different perspectives, and we think, did that go badly?

1326
01:33:43,850 --> 01:33:47,690
Mel:
And then they try to reenact it, and Hank comes out as the girl.

1327
01:33:47,790 --> 01:33:51,370
Mel:
And the girl is played by mary elizabeth winstead so you've got this very manic

1328
01:33:51,370 --> 01:33:58,650
Mel:
pixie dream vibe to it and then because of this they start talking about relationships

1329
01:33:58,650 --> 01:34:01,390
Mel:
and love and falling in love and,

1330
01:34:02,050 --> 01:34:06,470
Mel:
how do you fall in love do you fart in front of the person that you love um

1331
01:34:06,470 --> 01:34:11,150
Mel:
what is sex and love and all these sorts of things when.

1332
01:34:11,150 --> 01:34:13,210
Chas:
You put the cork up my butt was that sex.

1333
01:34:13,210 --> 01:34:16,970
Mel:
Uh reader yes it was so

1334
01:34:16,970 --> 01:34:20,270
Mel:
yeah that's uh that is essentially the plot

1335
01:34:20,270 --> 01:34:24,070
Mel:
and there's i think intentionally the film never

1336
01:34:24,070 --> 01:34:26,930
Mel:
thoroughly answers how much of

1337
01:34:26,930 --> 01:34:31,350
Mel:
this is you know an occurrence at owl creek bridge type of moment where everything

1338
01:34:31,350 --> 01:34:37,170
Mel:
is flashing through hank's imagination in the moments between you know him stepping

1339
01:34:37,170 --> 01:34:42,670
Mel:
off the esky and not or whether it's all a dream or whether it's all happening

1340
01:34:42,670 --> 01:34:43,710
Mel:
or whether There's some of it

1341
01:34:43,710 --> 01:34:46,830
Mel:
is and some of it's not. It doesn't go there because that's not the point.

1342
01:34:47,330 --> 01:34:49,690
Chas:
Sure. I hadn't even really thought about that at all.

1343
01:34:49,890 --> 01:34:50,110
Mel:
Mm.

1344
01:34:50,490 --> 01:34:50,890
Chas:
So...

1345
01:34:51,830 --> 01:34:56,870
Chas:
Clear on the tone i'd seen the trailer for this film a few times read reviews

1346
01:34:56,870 --> 01:35:03,050
Chas:
i knew it was about it was the fighting corpse movie and i assumed from looking

1347
01:35:03,050 --> 01:35:08,230
Chas:
at the trailer that hank riding manny like a jet ski was going to be somewhere

1348
01:35:08,230 --> 01:35:11,050
Chas:
near the culmination and climax of the movie right.

1349
01:35:11,050 --> 01:35:13,510
Mel:
As opposed to within the first five pages.

1350
01:35:13,510 --> 01:35:16,550
Chas:
Yes right so in terms of what tone does this film

1351
01:35:16,550 --> 01:35:19,450
Chas:
is established in the first five pages i think

1352
01:35:19,450 --> 01:35:22,170
Chas:
the tone is very clear on the

1353
01:35:22,170 --> 01:35:25,150
Chas:
page more clearer than any of the previous two films that

1354
01:35:25,150 --> 01:35:28,030
Chas:
we've looked at in that okay what do i mean by that the big

1355
01:35:28,030 --> 01:35:31,170
Chas:
print goes to greater lengths to

1356
01:35:31,170 --> 01:35:38,090
Chas:
tell us how to feel as an audience it is still very descriptive it's not like

1357
01:35:38,090 --> 01:35:43,770
Chas:
it doesn't have a whole lot of unfilmables necessarily but i think the action

1358
01:35:43,770 --> 01:35:48,150
Chas:
is inherently so surreal that even in describing it,

1359
01:35:48,350 --> 01:35:55,510
Chas:
it's teaching us how surreal and how sort of dark and gross and scatological,

1360
01:35:55,950 --> 01:35:57,850
Chas:
but ultimately cathartic it will be.

1361
01:35:58,050 --> 01:36:00,730
Mel:
Would you say it's accurate to call it a fart fantasy?

1362
01:36:01,070 --> 01:36:05,370
Chas:
Yes, I think that is. I mean, in the whole of the first page is a guy trying

1363
01:36:05,370 --> 01:36:09,630
Chas:
to kill himself and thinking that this body that's washed up might be alive

1364
01:36:09,630 --> 01:36:11,190
Chas:
and might cure his loneliness.

1365
01:36:11,190 --> 01:36:17,010
Chas:
And it ends with a rush of gas expels from the man's rear hank's face drops

1366
01:36:17,010 --> 01:36:21,630
Chas:
that's the the bottom of page one so it's like taking it seriously building

1367
01:36:21,630 --> 01:36:26,190
Chas:
up to the the gag and then hank has got quite a big monologue about what it

1368
01:36:26,190 --> 01:36:29,870
Chas:
might have meant to him you.

1369
01:36:29,870 --> 01:36:40,090
Excerpts:
Know i i'd always hope right before i died my life would flash before my eyes

1370
01:36:40,090 --> 01:36:49,410
Excerpts:
and I would see wonderful things a life full of parties and friends and,

1371
01:36:50,540 --> 01:36:57,060
Excerpts:
And how I'd learned to play the guitar and maybe there'd even be a girl.

1372
01:36:58,320 --> 01:37:04,740
Excerpts:
But as I was hanging up there, I didn't really see much of anything.

1373
01:37:07,740 --> 01:37:15,420
Excerpts:
But I did see you. And I know it sounds dumb, but I really thought for a moment

1374
01:37:15,420 --> 01:37:19,560
Excerpts:
that maybe, just maybe there was a reason that you can...

1375
01:37:21,880 --> 01:37:24,760
Chas:
And then he goes to hang himself again and then

1376
01:37:24,760 --> 01:37:27,480
Chas:
there's just a lot of this is what

1377
01:37:27,480 --> 01:37:30,920
Chas:
i mean about how it uses action lines

1378
01:37:30,920 --> 01:37:34,140
Chas:
so hank stares at the farting body

1379
01:37:34,140 --> 01:37:37,760
Chas:
it's an existential black hole it obliterates

1380
01:37:37,760 --> 01:37:40,540
Chas:
all meaning in hank's mind now none of

1381
01:37:40,540 --> 01:37:44,360
Chas:
that there's not a black hole on screen it's not being literal at all it is

1382
01:37:44,360 --> 01:37:48,680
Chas:
using a metaphor and then it says hank stands there trying to decipher what

1383
01:37:48,680 --> 01:37:53,360
Chas:
is happening right it is putting us in not only hank's experience but very firmly

1384
01:37:53,360 --> 01:38:00,240
Chas:
in our experience as viewers of the film as to what this means and how to feel about what it means that.

1385
01:38:00,240 --> 01:38:03,420
Mel:
Is a tool that this script uses far more than the other two.

1386
01:38:03,420 --> 01:38:04,260
Chas:
Yeah um.

1387
01:38:04,260 --> 01:38:07,700
Mel:
And i think that really comes into the tonal shift as well it's whose point

1388
01:38:07,700 --> 01:38:12,960
Mel:
of view are we within who are we sympathizing and empathizing with and that

1389
01:38:12,960 --> 01:38:20,400
Mel:
is really set up within these first few pages is hank we are within Hank's experience.

1390
01:38:20,900 --> 01:38:24,800
Chas:
Yeah. And I was really interested after watching it, so in these pages,

1391
01:38:25,020 --> 01:38:30,720
Chas:
Hank is singing and then it starts looping his voice so that it grows into different

1392
01:38:30,720 --> 01:38:34,420
Chas:
harmonies and beats and rhythms and- and it's quite beautiful, like...

1393
01:38:49,680 --> 01:38:52,680
Chas:
I've got subtitles on most times I watch things

1394
01:38:52,680 --> 01:38:55,560
Chas:
and the lyrics of the song often because

1395
01:38:55,560 --> 01:39:00,680
Chas:
it's quite sort of haunting slow repeated melodies it sounds like gibberish

1396
01:39:00,680 --> 01:39:03,840
Chas:
but there's actually like often they're just singing about their friendship

1397
01:39:03,840 --> 01:39:08,580
Chas:
and their relationship and what's happening at any given point in time but I

1398
01:39:08,580 --> 01:39:12,840
Chas:
was wondering is that on the page and it absolutely,

1399
01:39:13,520 --> 01:39:18,160
Chas:
is Hank begins to sing again as he sings he appears increasingly confident and

1400
01:39:18,160 --> 01:39:21,740
Chas:
his own voice loops underneath to create a growing chorus of voices.

1401
01:39:22,600 --> 01:39:27,820
Chas:
And then later, as Hank is riding Manny's body out into the ocean,

1402
01:39:28,520 --> 01:39:32,520
Chas:
after a bit, Hank stops singing and looks down at the insanity of the situation.

1403
01:39:33,420 --> 01:39:38,780
Chas:
Behind him, the island is increasingly distant, and ahead of him is just wide

1404
01:39:38,780 --> 01:39:40,520
Chas:
open ocean. What is he doing?

1405
01:39:40,780 --> 01:39:43,960
Chas:
How is this possible? That is one of my favorite, for

1406
01:39:43,960 --> 01:39:47,220
Chas:
me personally chas here favorite things is to ask questions

1407
01:39:47,220 --> 01:39:50,100
Chas:
of the audience in action lines i

1408
01:39:50,100 --> 01:39:52,900
Chas:
think it really orients them in what they're trying

1409
01:39:52,900 --> 01:39:55,620
Chas:
to feel or think if you're feeling this you are feeling

1410
01:39:55,620 --> 01:39:59,140
Chas:
the correct way and if not like try and orient them he

1411
01:39:59,140 --> 01:40:02,440
Chas:
pumps a fist in the air and sings at the top of his lungs it's rapturous

1412
01:40:02,440 --> 01:40:05,900
Chas:
it's pure freedom the beauty of the moment overtakes

1413
01:40:05,900 --> 01:40:09,680
Chas:
the logic in his mind and he lets go so

1414
01:40:09,680 --> 01:40:15,920
Chas:
that's the bottom of page four so that it clearly establishes for me the surrealism

1415
01:40:15,920 --> 01:40:22,140
Chas:
of the movie and it grows and grows what happens is that hank needs manny's

1416
01:40:22,140 --> 01:40:26,820
Chas:
penis to guide him to sarah johnson the lady like.

1417
01:40:26,820 --> 01:40:27,760
Mel:
A divining rod.

1418
01:40:27,760 --> 01:40:33,320
Chas:
Yeah and so he starts hank starts telling Manny the story of Hank's own love

1419
01:40:33,320 --> 01:40:35,420
Chas:
for Sarah, but as if it's from Manny.

1420
01:40:35,620 --> 01:40:40,160
Chas:
And Manny believes it's his own memories that he's feeling, that he has loved

1421
01:40:40,160 --> 01:40:42,740
Chas:
Sarah Johnson, that Sarah Johnson has loved him.

1422
01:40:43,060 --> 01:40:48,620
Chas:
And they are recreating Hank's memories. And Hank builds all these elaborate like.

1423
01:40:48,620 --> 01:40:58,960
Excerpts:
Hank would pick up my hand okay now put it on her hand,

1424
01:41:06,980 --> 01:41:09,000
Excerpts:
okay i want to look at her,

1425
01:41:14,800 --> 01:41:16,600
Excerpts:
my name is manny,

1426
01:41:19,320 --> 01:41:21,160
Excerpts:
My name is Seth.

1427
01:41:23,220 --> 01:41:24,340
Excerpts:
Sarah.

1428
01:41:26,110 --> 01:41:33,310
Excerpts:
Sarah. That's her name. Sarah Johnson. Sarah Johnson. Yeah, Sarah Johnson.

1429
01:41:35,230 --> 01:41:38,710
Excerpts:
Man of your face. Oh, this is what I look like when I'm happy.

1430
01:41:39,030 --> 01:41:42,610
Chas:
So speaking of Michelle Gondry, it feels very Michelle Gondry-esque.

1431
01:41:42,770 --> 01:41:45,790
Chas:
Like as they move from location to location through this forest,

1432
01:41:45,950 --> 01:41:48,250
Chas:
they'll recreate different scenes.

1433
01:41:48,510 --> 01:41:52,130
Chas:
So like a bus and he's building it out of scrap and

1434
01:41:52,130 --> 01:41:54,970
Chas:
junk and things that they find along the

1435
01:41:54,970 --> 01:41:59,830
Chas:
way they recreate a party they recreate their own home and they genuinely fall

1436
01:41:59,830 --> 01:42:04,350
Chas:
in love with each other like whether it's romantic love or not like they there's

1437
01:42:04,350 --> 01:42:08,570
Chas:
a kiss that then hank feels very awkward about and creates a bit of friction

1438
01:42:08,570 --> 01:42:14,050
Chas:
for them for a while until they almost drown and then they come back together again look.

1439
01:42:14,050 --> 01:42:19,190
Mel:
I think that it is all of the above. I think that they fall in love in every way.

1440
01:42:19,390 --> 01:42:24,850
Mel:
And I also think that Hank's feeling awkward about the kiss is completely in

1441
01:42:24,850 --> 01:42:30,010
Mel:
line with everything else he feels awkward about and feels that Manny should

1442
01:42:30,010 --> 01:42:33,370
Mel:
feel awkward about, but because Manny is a corpse, feels no shame.

1443
01:42:33,570 --> 01:42:38,070
Mel:
Manny goes, well, why do you feel shame about masturbating?

1444
01:42:38,210 --> 01:42:41,030
Mel:
Why do you feel shame about farting in front of someone if you love them?

1445
01:42:41,130 --> 01:42:44,390
Mel:
Why do you feel shame about having these thoughts and and

1446
01:42:44,390 --> 01:42:47,150
Mel:
wanting to express love and hank just

1447
01:42:47,150 --> 01:42:50,950
Mel:
feels shame about everything so there's this really

1448
01:42:50,950 --> 01:42:55,810
Mel:
lovely thing where where hank's trying to teach manny well you don't need to

1449
01:42:55,810 --> 01:43:00,570
Mel:
share absolutely everything and then manny's saying well why not and you're

1450
01:43:00,570 --> 01:43:06,630
Mel:
realizing that where our lines are are often arbitrary are often personal and

1451
01:43:06,630 --> 01:43:09,010
Mel:
are sometimes ridiculous and holding us back,

1452
01:43:09,510 --> 01:43:15,670
Mel:
yes however to live in a society we do still need some of these lines and why

1453
01:43:15,670 --> 01:43:20,050
Mel:
is the question you know and do you still need to hold on to those lines if

1454
01:43:20,050 --> 01:43:23,950
Mel:
you're about to die and your only companion is a farting corpse maybe not.

1455
01:43:23,950 --> 01:43:30,510
Chas:
And so mel just one more thing before you get to the tonal shift as they're

1456
01:43:30,510 --> 01:43:34,950
Chas:
doing this i just want to give more of a vibe like those metaphors That use

1457
01:43:34,950 --> 01:43:41,470
Chas:
of big print is reflected in the feeling of the film because there's vibrant green from the forest,

1458
01:43:41,650 --> 01:43:47,410
Chas:
like really vivid green, and like they find an old couch that they then rip

1459
01:43:47,410 --> 01:43:52,550
Chas:
up and turn into dress and the bus and things like that. And so there's lots of yellow green.

1460
01:43:53,330 --> 01:43:56,870
Chas:
Gold lots of really soft focus shots

1461
01:43:56,870 --> 01:44:02,190
Chas:
it feels like michelle gondry-esque it feels whimsical and as they're falling

1462
01:44:02,190 --> 01:44:04,850
Chas:
in love with each other you're falling in love with them and you're falling

1463
01:44:04,850 --> 01:44:08,470
Chas:
in love with the the humor of the situation and the there's a lot of sort of

1464
01:44:08,470 --> 01:44:13,050
Chas:
montages and movements and it's yeah i just want to set all that up as the feeling

1465
01:44:13,050 --> 01:44:15,570
Chas:
of the film as we arrive at the tonal shift.

1466
01:44:15,570 --> 01:44:19,290
Mel:
And this is where i definitely think of again.

1467
01:44:19,290 --> 01:44:21,970
Mel:
All the scripts being written by the people who

1468
01:44:21,970 --> 01:44:25,430
Mel:
plan to direct them but i think of all of the scripts in fact one of

1469
01:44:25,430 --> 01:44:28,130
Mel:
of all the scripts i've read which is a lot this is one of

1470
01:44:28,130 --> 01:44:31,210
Mel:
the scripts that i think is one of the most difficult to visualize the

1471
01:44:31,210 --> 01:44:34,950
Mel:
first time i read it because there's such a specific

1472
01:44:34,950 --> 01:44:38,790
Mel:
vision that they are enacting in

1473
01:44:38,790 --> 01:44:42,590
Mel:
terms of you know these two people

1474
01:44:42,590 --> 01:44:46,730
Mel:
alone in the woods reenacting and

1475
01:44:46,730 --> 01:44:50,170
Mel:
creating a memory slash

1476
01:44:50,170 --> 01:44:55,410
Mel:
fantasy slash simulation to

1477
01:44:55,410 --> 01:44:59,030
Mel:
try to understand life better and they

1478
01:44:59,030 --> 01:45:02,510
Mel:
are clearly very visual directors and

1479
01:45:02,510 --> 01:45:05,330
Mel:
they're writing what i'm sure in their head is quite

1480
01:45:05,330 --> 01:45:08,330
Mel:
clear and i think it's beautiful on the page but it's nothing

1481
01:45:08,330 --> 01:45:11,470
Mel:
compared to what they actualize and

1482
01:45:11,470 --> 01:45:14,390
Mel:
how sort of yeah fantastical it

1483
01:45:14,390 --> 01:45:17,550
Mel:
is they get a lot of it across in

1484
01:45:17,550 --> 01:45:20,490
Mel:
these lines about like and then his

1485
01:45:20,490 --> 01:45:23,550
Mel:
dick starts moving you know the the lines feel

1486
01:45:23,550 --> 01:45:27,030
Mel:
like a Farrelly brothers movie sometimes when

1487
01:45:27,030 --> 01:45:30,190
Mel:
then you watch it and you're like oh that's not what this is

1488
01:45:30,190 --> 01:45:36,010
Mel:
because I think we're used to seeing those sorts of lines and action lines in

1489
01:45:36,010 --> 01:45:41,250
Mel:
a certain type of film but what I do think it does this really interesting is

1490
01:45:41,250 --> 01:45:44,490
Mel:
like what you were talking about is putting us inside a character's point of

1491
01:45:44,490 --> 01:45:47,930
Mel:
view and when it puts us in a character's point of view it's a really beautiful thing yeah.

1492
01:45:48,420 --> 01:45:52,620
Chas:
Even when it's as absurd as these two characters' situation.

1493
01:45:52,800 --> 01:45:53,640
Mel:
Sometimes more.

1494
01:45:53,900 --> 01:45:54,080
Chas:
Yeah.

1495
01:45:54,300 --> 01:45:59,480
Mel:
Yeah, absolutely. Because they really do find a lot of beauty in,

1496
01:45:59,620 --> 01:46:03,420
Mel:
yeah, complete absurdity and things that can't happen in real life, you know.

1497
01:46:03,960 --> 01:46:08,420
Mel:
And there's jokes that have been made about it's a gay necrophiliac love story

1498
01:46:08,420 --> 01:46:11,620
Mel:
because if you literalize it, it is.

1499
01:46:11,980 --> 01:46:17,820
Mel:
But they're not treating it literally. They're simply treating it as fact.

1500
01:46:17,820 --> 01:46:19,400
Mel:
And those are two very different things.

1501
01:46:20,260 --> 01:46:22,380
Chas:
So what's the tonal shift?

1502
01:46:22,640 --> 01:46:29,700
Mel:
Okay, so the tonal shift is essentially on page 80.

1503
01:46:30,380 --> 01:46:34,780
Mel:
So a lot of things have happened. Chaz, you summed up most of them.

1504
01:46:35,020 --> 01:46:42,840
Mel:
They've gotten to civilization, but still quite far away from, you know, like the city.

1505
01:46:43,180 --> 01:46:47,000
Mel:
They got attacked by a bear and manny is

1506
01:46:47,000 --> 01:46:49,840
Mel:
now carrying he is very slowly throughout

1507
01:46:49,840 --> 01:46:53,380
Mel:
the course of the film gained powers of speech and

1508
01:46:53,380 --> 01:46:58,040
Mel:
then gained ability to move his limbs and finally has gained mobility so um

1509
01:46:58,040 --> 01:47:03,560
Mel:
when hank gets hurt with the bear attack um he passes out he wakes up being

1510
01:47:03,560 --> 01:47:10,660
Mel:
carried on manny's back and so scene 121 at the bottom of page 80 manny says wow.

1511
01:47:12,940 --> 01:47:13,720
Excerpts:
There she is.

1512
01:47:14,100 --> 01:47:17,680
Mel:
Hank squints through the sunlight to see that he and Manny are walking through

1513
01:47:17,680 --> 01:47:19,040
Mel:
some trees toward a house.

1514
01:47:19,220 --> 01:47:23,180
Mel:
A grill, a lawnmower, a driveway with a red sports car parked next to the garbage

1515
01:47:23,180 --> 01:47:25,620
Mel:
cans. And you get the point. It's civilization.

1516
01:47:26,240 --> 01:47:30,860
Mel:
Through the glass, in the flesh, doing dishes, is none other than Sarah.

1517
01:47:33,580 --> 01:47:39,100
Mel:
This is a callback because Hank has taught Manny the tune and they have hummed

1518
01:47:39,100 --> 01:47:43,860
Mel:
Jurassic Park several times. so we're like oh this is a callback this is triumphant Oh.

1519
01:47:43,860 --> 01:47:49,300
Excerpts:
Shit. No. Manny, stop saying! Manny! Hey, what are you doing? No!

1520
01:47:49,880 --> 01:47:52,600
Excerpts:
This is home! No! This is what we've been fighting for, right?

1521
01:47:54,360 --> 01:47:59,300
Mel:
And then manny and hank start having one of what is kind of their classical

1522
01:47:59,300 --> 01:48:03,680
Mel:
typical arguments where hank is like no manny this is a bad idea manny's like

1523
01:48:03,680 --> 01:48:11,540
Mel:
what's the problem and for me like the tonal shift comes with the introduction of Sarah.

1524
01:48:11,780 --> 01:48:17,860
Mel:
And really, because for the first time, we get introduced to a point of view

1525
01:48:17,860 --> 01:48:20,560
Mel:
that is neither Manny's nor Hank's.

1526
01:48:20,700 --> 01:48:23,120
Mel:
Suddenly, interior Sarah's house continuous.

1527
01:48:23,520 --> 01:48:27,120
Mel:
Sarah hums to herself doing dishes. She's totally oblivious that over her shoulder,

1528
01:48:27,420 --> 01:48:31,100
Mel:
Hank and Manny are rolling around the yard like idiots. Then we jump back to the yard.

1529
01:48:31,260 --> 01:48:33,460
Mel:
They're fighting and suddenly, hello?

1530
01:48:34,120 --> 01:48:38,800
Excerpts:
Maybe everyone's a little bit ugly. Yeah, maybe we're all just ugly,

1531
01:48:38,900 --> 01:48:43,200
Excerpts:
dying sacks of shit, and maybe all it'll take is one person to just be okay

1532
01:48:43,200 --> 01:48:47,480
Excerpts:
with that, and then the whole world will be dancing and singing and farting,

1533
01:48:47,720 --> 01:48:50,220
Excerpts:
and everyone will feel a little bit less alone.

1534
01:48:51,460 --> 01:48:54,440
Excerpts:
Penny, you have no idea how nice that sounds. Hello.

1535
01:49:03,400 --> 01:49:05,040
Excerpts:
Are you dressed up for Halloween?

1536
01:49:09,700 --> 01:49:13,400
Excerpts:
No, no, we're just a little dirty and tired.

1537
01:49:14,200 --> 01:49:17,840
Excerpts:
What's wrong with your face? Nothing, we just need some help.

1538
01:49:21,700 --> 01:49:27,480
Excerpts:
My name's Manny, and this is my best friend, Hank. I used to be dead,

1539
01:49:27,660 --> 01:49:28,920
Excerpts:
but then he brought me back to life.

1540
01:49:29,220 --> 01:49:32,380
Excerpts:
And we were lost out there in the woods for a very long time.

1541
01:49:32,620 --> 01:49:35,160
Excerpts:
But we survived because I have special powers.

1542
01:49:35,890 --> 01:49:42,950
Mel:
So off screen, Chrissy, the first time that there has been another actual quote

1543
01:49:42,950 --> 01:49:45,490
Mel:
unquote living character in with them.

1544
01:49:45,910 --> 01:49:50,030
Mel:
And it's an interesting one because, again, the tonal shift,

1545
01:49:50,130 --> 01:49:53,610
Mel:
I think, is a little bit more gradual here than I had remembered it.

1546
01:49:53,610 --> 01:49:58,590
Mel:
But I think it's quite clear with the introduction of two other people.

1547
01:49:59,430 --> 01:50:06,710
Mel:
And then there's a realization that is slowly dawning throughout this scene.

1548
01:50:07,690 --> 01:50:10,970
Mel:
That Sarah comes running outside, you know, because her little kid.

1549
01:50:11,070 --> 01:50:11,790
Mel:
And she's like, Chrissy?

1550
01:50:12,070 --> 01:50:17,350
Mel:
Manny and Hank turn around to see Sarah staring right at them in slow motion. This is the moment.

1551
01:50:17,630 --> 01:50:20,790
Mel:
She is so beautiful up close. But as she looks at the two of them,

1552
01:50:20,850 --> 01:50:23,210
Mel:
her expression quickly turns to disgust and horror.

1553
01:50:23,610 --> 01:50:28,290
Mel:
And the realization actually takes a little while to build.

1554
01:50:28,510 --> 01:50:34,390
Mel:
And I think that it's crucial that through the film, we've only ever seen or

1555
01:50:34,390 --> 01:50:37,170
Mel:
heard about Sarah from Hank.

1556
01:50:37,170 --> 01:50:41,170
Mel:
Sure, we've seen her in fantasy and in flashback and whatever,

1557
01:50:41,230 --> 01:50:45,570
Mel:
but it's all through this unreliable narrator, through his point of view,

1558
01:50:45,710 --> 01:50:50,470
Mel:
and through all these fantasies that, you know, he said lots of things.

1559
01:50:51,050 --> 01:50:54,830
Mel:
And most of the things that we're seeing them interact with is only fantasy.

1560
01:50:54,830 --> 01:51:02,510
Mel:
And suddenly we're realizing Sarah does not even recognize this guy at all, has no idea who he is.

1561
01:51:03,250 --> 01:51:07,630
Mel:
And that we're recontextualizing in our head that when Hank was looking at her

1562
01:51:07,630 --> 01:51:10,970
Mel:
Instagram and saw him with another guy, that's not like, oh,

1563
01:51:11,150 --> 01:51:16,650
Mel:
her new boyfriend that she's moved on with, which was the impression that I first got when I saw it.

1564
01:51:16,650 --> 01:51:20,910
Mel:
And the script doesn't give us anything to indicate that's not the fact.

1565
01:51:21,050 --> 01:51:23,910
Mel:
You're just like, oh, you know, when your ex breaks up with someone and they

1566
01:51:23,910 --> 01:51:29,030
Mel:
move on and you get that really unhealthy obsession with like looking at the

1567
01:51:29,030 --> 01:51:32,290
Mel:
photos of them together and comparing yourself to them and thinking you're better

1568
01:51:32,290 --> 01:51:34,610
Mel:
looking than them or not as good looking at them or whatever.

1569
01:51:34,610 --> 01:51:38,250
Mel:
And suddenly you realize she has no idea who he is.

1570
01:51:38,390 --> 01:51:44,390
Mel:
And it says there's just one action line that literally just says she has no idea.

1571
01:51:44,550 --> 01:51:48,050
Mel:
And you realize, holy shit, he's not been remembering something.

1572
01:51:48,570 --> 01:51:53,630
Mel:
He's not been fantasizing something that didn't happen because she broke up with him.

1573
01:51:53,630 --> 01:51:56,950
Mel:
He stalked this woman and that's

1574
01:51:56,950 --> 01:52:00,130
Mel:
the tonal shift where you suddenly and i actually

1575
01:52:00,130 --> 01:52:03,250
Mel:
think it's quite interesting because it's really clear on

1576
01:52:03,250 --> 01:52:07,930
Mel:
screen when it happens and on the page there's a couple of different times where

1577
01:52:07,930 --> 01:52:12,310
Mel:
it becomes could become clear depending on how fast you're reading like it makes

1578
01:52:12,310 --> 01:52:15,710
Mel:
it very clear but there's a couple of different times you could notice it because

1579
01:52:15,710 --> 01:52:19,490
Mel:
it doesn't spell out at first that sarah doesn't recognize hank when she comes

1580
01:52:19,490 --> 01:52:21,390
Mel:
outside you're Just like, oh,

1581
01:52:21,530 --> 01:52:24,590
Mel:
she's freaked out because he's, you know, got this beard and she's freaked out

1582
01:52:24,590 --> 01:52:26,850
Mel:
because her kid and she's freaked out because Manny's the corpse.

1583
01:52:28,190 --> 01:52:33,010
Mel:
It is a slow dawning realization, but it is a big tonal shift.

1584
01:52:33,190 --> 01:52:33,550
Chas:
Mm-hmm.

1585
01:52:34,000 --> 01:52:40,600
Chas:
And I asked you what you thought the tonal shift was I felt one and I don't

1586
01:52:40,600 --> 01:52:44,000
Chas:
think it was a maybe it was a tonal shift I felt one tonal shift in the bear

1587
01:52:44,000 --> 01:52:48,340
Chas:
attack scene because basically at that point there's a point in that scene where

1588
01:52:48,340 --> 01:52:50,920
Chas:
where Manny is gonna let Hank get eaten by the bear,

1589
01:52:52,060 --> 01:52:54,880
Chas:
and that was just where I'm like oh this film could

1590
01:52:54,880 --> 01:52:57,840
Chas:
end really badly and and that was a big shift but

1591
01:52:57,840 --> 01:53:01,020
Chas:
it was still fighting corpse movie but that

1592
01:53:01,020 --> 01:53:04,020
Chas:
was the first time where I I was unsettled as

1593
01:53:04,020 --> 01:53:06,980
Chas:
a viewer deliberately and then when you said this

1594
01:53:06,980 --> 01:53:10,080
Chas:
was a tonal change i thought

1595
01:53:10,080 --> 01:53:13,080
Chas:
back on it and not only like you

1596
01:53:13,080 --> 01:53:16,260
Chas:
said you've got a massive plot reveal which

1597
01:53:16,260 --> 01:53:19,540
Chas:
recontextualizes the whole film you also

1598
01:53:19,540 --> 01:53:22,680
Chas:
have the way it's shot

1599
01:53:22,680 --> 01:53:25,640
Chas:
and the way that the color grade changes it becomes

1600
01:53:25,640 --> 01:53:29,100
Chas:
bluer it looks more like quote-unquote real

1601
01:53:29,100 --> 01:53:31,840
Chas:
life there's more like sort of i'm trying to

1602
01:53:31,840 --> 01:53:34,960
Chas:
think of how to describe it but the the editing becomes less

1603
01:53:34,960 --> 01:53:38,200
Chas:
stylized and the framing becomes less stylized the color

1604
01:53:38,200 --> 01:53:40,960
Chas:
or the shot selection becomes less stylized it's

1605
01:53:40,960 --> 01:53:44,080
Chas:
like we're watching a true crime thing of how a mother

1606
01:53:44,080 --> 01:53:48,620
Chas:
and their little daughter finds a homeless guy and his dead corpse friend in

1607
01:53:48,620 --> 01:53:53,480
Chas:
their backyard right and then they deliberately have a news reporter appearing

1608
01:53:53,480 --> 01:53:57,580
Chas:
and there was one shot that really stood out to me is hank's father has been

1609
01:53:57,580 --> 01:54:01,260
Chas:
told that hank is dead and it's a one-shot.

1610
01:54:01,360 --> 01:54:03,960
Mel:
Because they've misidentified Manny as Hank.

1611
01:54:04,240 --> 01:54:07,500
Chas:
Yeah. And it's all a bit sort of confusing at that point. Like Anna was like, oh.

1612
01:54:08,020 --> 01:54:08,900
Mel:
Intentionally, I think.

1613
01:54:09,080 --> 01:54:09,880
Chas:
Yeah, absolutely.

1614
01:54:10,260 --> 01:54:15,040
Mel:
There's a lot of confusion, realization, mistaken identity, lots of stuff happening at once.

1615
01:54:15,220 --> 01:54:21,160
Chas:
Yeah. And so the reporter is about to interview Hank and I'm just going to read it out.

1616
01:54:21,600 --> 01:54:24,880
Chas:
She walks over to her cameraman as Hank notices something in the street.

1617
01:54:25,140 --> 01:54:29,220
Chas:
He nervously sneaks away from the news team as his dad walks onto the driveway.

1618
01:54:29,480 --> 01:54:34,140
Chas:
An older man with a sullen face, he looks more or less just like the dummy self from the forest.

1619
01:54:34,520 --> 01:54:38,240
Chas:
Hank watches from behind the ambulance as his father is escorted toward the

1620
01:54:38,240 --> 01:54:39,820
Chas:
body bag with Maddie inside.

1621
01:54:40,500 --> 01:54:43,560
Chas:
When he sees the body bag, Hank's dad simply shakes his head,

1622
01:54:43,700 --> 01:54:47,140
Chas:
no, turns and walks away without realising it's not Hank.

1623
01:54:47,340 --> 01:54:50,040
Chas:
Careful not to be seen, Hank follows his dad through the crowd.

1624
01:54:50,040 --> 01:54:52,640
Chas:
He is right behind him, but right when he could say something,

1625
01:54:52,780 --> 01:54:55,820
Chas:
he chickens out and hides behind the white fence in the front yard.

1626
01:54:56,000 --> 01:54:59,800
Chas:
As Hank hides there by the fence, we can see Hank's dad in the distance,

1627
01:54:59,980 --> 01:55:03,060
Chas:
beginning to break down and cry by his truck.

1628
01:55:03,220 --> 01:55:08,220
Chas:
Now, all of that is a one-er and it feels very different. It feels almost like

1629
01:55:08,220 --> 01:55:11,060
Chas:
we're in like a David Fincher thriller movie.

1630
01:55:11,220 --> 01:55:16,400
Chas:
It's like almost something out of the front of Ben Affleck's house in Gone Girl kind of vibe.

1631
01:55:16,540 --> 01:55:22,300
Chas:
Not as formalized as Fincher. I'm overdoing it here, but in terms of the tone,

1632
01:55:22,780 --> 01:55:27,200
Chas:
the directors and the writers are using a lot of different tools to change the tone of this moment.

1633
01:55:27,380 --> 01:55:32,540
Chas:
It's not just the plot reveal. It's not just the perspective change.

1634
01:55:32,740 --> 01:55:37,880
Chas:
It's not just that Hank's been stalking Sarah and Sarah's not been known Hank.

1635
01:55:38,100 --> 01:55:42,880
Chas:
It's that Hank's relationship with Manny is not normal.

1636
01:55:42,940 --> 01:55:47,960
Chas:
It's been normalized in this whole film. And then suddenly you've got many people

1637
01:55:47,960 --> 01:55:51,340
Chas:
external to Hank all seeing it as not normal.

1638
01:55:51,540 --> 01:55:56,220
Chas:
And so these are almost violent juxtapositions with everything that's gone before.

1639
01:55:56,340 --> 01:55:58,040
Chas:
And that's what leads to the tonal shift.

1640
01:55:58,220 --> 01:56:02,320
Mel:
I think where Shaun of the Dead does a lot of back and forth tonal shift,

1641
01:56:02,460 --> 01:56:04,940
Mel:
right? And where Sorry to Bother You has like...

1642
01:56:05,290 --> 01:56:09,910
Mel:
Well it's very slow escalate and then one massive tonal shift for me it's almost

1643
01:56:09,910 --> 01:56:19,170
Mel:
as if swiss army man is mostly one tone throughout and then from page like 81 to page 90.

1644
01:56:19,170 --> 01:56:23,810
Chas:
Probably 91 so for 10.

1645
01:56:23,810 --> 01:56:29,570
Mel:
Pages you almost get tonal shift tonal shift where it's ratcheting up where

1646
01:56:29,570 --> 01:56:34,290
Mel:
it's all instead of one giant shift all at once which is open stall door oh

1647
01:56:34,290 --> 01:56:35,570
Mel:
my god there's a horseman.

1648
01:56:35,570 --> 01:56:36,410
Chas:
It's.

1649
01:56:36,410 --> 01:56:41,970
Mel:
Oh suddenly there's a kid oh suddenly sarah's here oh suddenly sarah doesn't

1650
01:56:41,970 --> 01:56:46,710
Mel:
recognize oh suddenly he's a stalker oh suddenly his dad is figuring this out

1651
01:56:46,710 --> 01:56:51,570
Mel:
oh suddenly sarah realizes that he's her stalker like you've got all of these

1652
01:56:51,570 --> 01:56:56,330
Mel:
things and you're shift it's like you're shifting i don't know how to drive a manual car but you.

1653
01:56:56,330 --> 01:56:57,350
Chas:
Know instead of shifting.

1654
01:56:57,350 --> 01:57:02,210
Mel:
From first to sixth you're going from one to two to three to four to five to

1655
01:57:02,210 --> 01:57:07,110
Mel:
six and it's just it's giving you these tonal shifts all going the same direction

1656
01:57:07,110 --> 01:57:11,190
Mel:
but all in these slow doses.

1657
01:57:11,190 --> 01:57:11,550
Chas:
As

1658
01:57:11,550 --> 01:57:13,330
Mel:
Opposed to big click.

1659
01:57:13,330 --> 01:57:19,210
Chas:
I would argue that the the tone of the film shifts when they arrive at the backyard

1660
01:57:19,210 --> 01:57:24,850
Chas:
because that's when tonally the cinematography style changes the color grade

1661
01:57:24,850 --> 01:57:28,730
Chas:
changes the editing style changes there's no music that's.

1662
01:57:28,730 --> 01:57:30,770
Mel:
Page 81 but that's.

1663
01:57:30,770 --> 01:57:31,630
Chas:
Yeah you're.

1664
01:57:31,630 --> 01:57:33,890
Mel:
Arguing from the film and i.

1665
01:57:33,890 --> 01:57:34,610
Chas:
Think because.

1666
01:57:34,610 --> 01:57:36,350
Mel:
They're directing they know that's where it shifts.

1667
01:57:36,350 --> 01:57:36,910
Chas:
And that's.

1668
01:57:36,910 --> 01:57:38,890
Mel:
Yeah page 81 is where i think it starts.

1669
01:57:38,890 --> 01:57:42,750
Chas:
Can i phrase it differently i'm arguing as the viewer that's

1670
01:57:42,750 --> 01:57:45,610
Chas:
when it shifts so then i'm like all right if that's when it shifted as

1671
01:57:45,610 --> 01:57:48,770
Chas:
the viewer what have they then done on

1672
01:57:48,770 --> 01:57:51,550
Chas:
the page right and that's where they're doing all the

1673
01:57:51,550 --> 01:57:54,550
Chas:
the things that you're talking about right but

1674
01:57:54,550 --> 01:57:57,870
Chas:
the other observation that I want to make which is about contrast like

1675
01:57:57,870 --> 01:58:00,510
Chas:
we've read this out this is out of the three scripts this one's got the

1676
01:58:00,510 --> 01:58:05,250
Chas:
most stylized big print there is very little stylization in the big print in

1677
01:58:05,250 --> 01:58:09,730
Chas:
that scene where Chrissy the young girl is being terrified by Manny the talking

1678
01:58:09,730 --> 01:58:14,530
Chas:
corpse and it's all very descriptive you know Hank and Manny stare at Sarah

1679
01:58:14,530 --> 01:58:20,490
Chas:
in silence no clue is what to say awkward pause like very descriptive not a lot of performance very.

1680
01:58:20,490 --> 01:58:21,310
Mel:
Matter of fact.

1681
01:58:21,310 --> 01:58:24,110
Chas:
Yeah i think yeah but then there's a

1682
01:58:24,110 --> 01:58:27,730
Chas:
beautiful moment where sarah and hank

1683
01:58:27,730 --> 01:58:30,730
Chas:
hug and cry because she thinks he's a lost man

1684
01:58:30,730 --> 01:58:33,550
Chas:
who's survived the wilderness with a corpse and she's rescuing him

1685
01:58:33,550 --> 01:58:36,810
Chas:
so hank begins to cry on sarah's shoulder she

1686
01:58:36,810 --> 01:58:42,990
Chas:
thinks he's so happy to be home she has no idea no idea manny just left no idea

1687
01:58:42,990 --> 01:58:47,790
Chas:
he was ever alive in the first place or that he loved her only hank knows so

1688
01:58:47,790 --> 01:58:52,230
Chas:
he cries so obviously that's a big bit of the filmmakers on the page telling

1689
01:58:52,230 --> 01:58:54,950
Chas:
us as the audience how to feel in this moment,

1690
01:58:55,690 --> 01:59:03,570
Chas:
But then from then, all the way, there's not a metaphor from there until page 94.

1691
01:59:03,870 --> 01:59:07,550
Chas:
There's like a seven page, in a script where almost every line is loaded with

1692
01:59:07,550 --> 01:59:12,470
Chas:
metaphor, there's like a seven page gap where it becomes almost as documentary

1693
01:59:12,470 --> 01:59:15,830
Chas:
a matter of fact as it's being portrayed on screen.

1694
01:59:15,990 --> 01:59:20,770
Mel:
Yep. And I think we've kind of shifted, and I think that's because we've shifted

1695
01:59:20,770 --> 01:59:24,710
Mel:
to having this empathy and sympathy with Sarah.

1696
01:59:25,770 --> 01:59:30,330
Mel:
In those pages where, you know, where we talked about contrast.

1697
01:59:30,750 --> 01:59:36,750
Mel:
This is contrast. We've had, you know, 80-odd pages of fantasy and of seeing

1698
01:59:36,750 --> 01:59:40,110
Mel:
Hank's point of view is normalized and all those things.

1699
01:59:40,150 --> 01:59:44,710
Mel:
So when it suddenly shifts and stop using metaphor and we start understanding

1700
01:59:44,710 --> 01:59:47,470
Mel:
this thing about Sarah and it's very factual and laid out,

1701
01:59:47,750 --> 01:59:53,870
Mel:
the contrast really makes us feel that tonal shift that they realize on screen

1702
01:59:53,870 --> 01:59:57,190
Mel:
with other things like color and sound, but it's here.

1703
01:59:57,370 --> 02:00:02,030
Chas:
And those pages are basically Hank absconding with Manny's body,

1704
02:00:02,310 --> 02:00:08,330
Chas:
now inanimate once again, and trying to run back to free the body because he's

1705
02:00:08,330 --> 02:00:13,310
Chas:
heard that the body will be basically buried in an unmarked grave.

1706
02:00:13,470 --> 02:00:19,070
Chas:
And it's also Hank pleading with Manny's body to come back to life.

1707
02:00:19,070 --> 02:00:24,590
Chas:
And it's all very matter of fact they're running back through all the sets that

1708
02:00:24,590 --> 02:00:28,750
Chas:
they've built and all the people chasing them including sarah her husband chrissy

1709
02:00:28,750 --> 02:00:32,130
Chas:
the daughter cops they're all chasing they're finding the sets that they've

1710
02:00:32,130 --> 02:00:33,670
Chas:
built so the sets were real right.

1711
02:00:33,670 --> 02:00:35,050
Mel:
He really built.

1712
02:00:35,050 --> 02:00:35,650
Chas:
All this.

1713
02:00:35,650 --> 02:00:39,210
Mel:
Stuff in an old you know broken down bus in the middle of the woods.

1714
02:00:39,210 --> 02:00:45,270
Chas:
But it looks it with this color grade insane and the wide shot it looks crazy

1715
02:00:45,270 --> 02:00:48,290
Chas:
it looks like something out of True Detective season one, right?

1716
02:00:48,570 --> 02:00:52,830
Chas:
And it's deliberately the case and the description is a very matter of fact. And it's

1717
02:00:53,220 --> 02:00:59,500
Chas:
So, matter of fact, like on page one, sorry, scene 142, it's page 95,

1718
02:01:00,240 --> 02:01:04,420
Chas:
Hank gives up and simply cradles Manny in his arms looking for a sign of life, anything at all.

1719
02:01:04,680 --> 02:01:07,860
Chas:
Unseen by Hank, Sarah is standing completely still 20 feet away,

1720
02:01:08,100 --> 02:01:10,060
Chas:
just watching a guy talking to a corpse.

1721
02:01:10,060 --> 02:01:14,080
Chas:
Right it's just it's so sad just

1722
02:01:14,080 --> 02:01:17,120
Chas:
from the description of it it doesn't have to tell us to feel sad

1723
02:01:17,120 --> 02:01:20,640
Chas:
but it takes the conclusion

1724
02:01:20,640 --> 02:01:24,040
Chas:
is Hank has to fart

1725
02:01:24,040 --> 02:01:28,660
Chas:
in front of everyone to inspire Manny that people are willing to be ugly in

1726
02:01:28,660 --> 02:01:34,260
Chas:
front of each other to come back to life and the the music resumes Manny's body

1727
02:01:34,260 --> 02:01:39,200
Chas:
manages to propel itself with farts back into the ocean and he's you know looking

1728
02:01:39,200 --> 02:01:41,580
Chas:
back with a grin on his face.

1729
02:01:41,820 --> 02:01:45,580
Mel:
Manny's body shoots away against the waves like a beautiful dolphin.

1730
02:01:46,020 --> 02:01:52,380
Chas:
Yeah. And so the metaphors come back. And even though that's about Manny and

1731
02:01:52,380 --> 02:01:58,980
Chas:
Manny's freedom, I think the sadness for me comes from the fact that Hank is definitely not free.

1732
02:01:59,180 --> 02:02:06,860
Chas:
He is an incredibly lonely person and has lost the one friend or connection that he's ever had.

1733
02:02:07,400 --> 02:02:11,080
Chas:
Yeah. Yeah. wonderful choice wonderful

1734
02:02:11,080 --> 02:02:14,400
Chas:
movie and i'm i like seeing that

1735
02:02:14,400 --> 02:02:17,840
Chas:
that each of these scripts use different

1736
02:02:17,840 --> 02:02:20,760
Chas:
techniques but i think you're right that you could summarize them all as

1737
02:02:20,760 --> 02:02:24,020
Chas:
contrast they all in similar

1738
02:02:24,020 --> 02:02:27,340
Chas:
we've uh stew and i found something when we were looking at the

1739
02:02:27,340 --> 02:02:30,860
Chas:
sense and sensibility script by emma

1740
02:02:30,860 --> 02:02:37,340
Chas:
thompson that she used different writing styles when writing for her character

1741
02:02:37,340 --> 02:02:43,840
Chas:
as opposed to uh the kate winslet sister like the the action lines actually

1742
02:02:43,840 --> 02:02:49,800
Chas:
reflected the outlook the worldview of the characters depending on whose perspective you were in so.

1743
02:02:49,800 --> 02:02:55,220
Mel:
Like i guess if i had to summarize it i would say that all three of these scripts

1744
02:02:55,220 --> 02:02:59,240
Mel:
use different tools but the same principles.

1745
02:02:59,240 --> 02:03:00,720
Chas:
Yeah where.

1746
02:03:00,720 --> 02:03:06,580
Mel:
It's about contrast and also especially with Swiss Army men,

1747
02:03:06,660 --> 02:03:08,560
Mel:
but to a very smaller extent, the others as well.

1748
02:03:08,660 --> 02:03:11,740
Mel:
It's about point of view and who we're empathizing with in any given moment.

1749
02:03:11,920 --> 02:03:15,480
Chas:
I think I agree with your really early observation that if I were writing this

1750
02:03:15,480 --> 02:03:21,280
Chas:
not to direct myself or writing something with this level of tonal shifts in them,

1751
02:03:21,500 --> 02:03:24,980
Chas:
that I would have to take a more Swiss

1752
02:03:24,980 --> 02:03:28,040
Chas:
Army man approach where I'm having to

1753
02:03:28,040 --> 02:03:31,360
Chas:
do a little more handholding in the action lines to tell the audience how to

1754
02:03:31,360 --> 02:03:37,420
Chas:
feel about any given moment but then they abandon that principle when they want

1755
02:03:37,420 --> 02:03:45,660
Chas:
the audience to be like emotionally detaching and and being fearful for Hank you know so it's not that

1756
02:03:46,090 --> 02:03:51,010
Chas:
they had to use it all the time and that the contrast was super powerful.

1757
02:03:51,770 --> 02:03:57,490
Chas:
Another thing that I learned from this is that all three scripts did a lot in

1758
02:03:57,490 --> 02:04:00,050
Chas:
setting up that pattern to contrast it with.

1759
02:04:00,190 --> 02:04:02,910
Chas:
You can't just go, oh, I've learned all these techniques and

1760
02:04:02,910 --> 02:04:06,530
Chas:
I'm going to drop them in where the tonal shift is because then it will feel out

1761
02:04:06,530 --> 02:04:09,250
Chas:
of place in the script in the same

1762
02:04:09,250 --> 02:04:12,010
Chas:
way that it will feel out of place in the movie or the

1763
02:04:12,010 --> 02:04:14,830
Chas:
TV show that you're doing unless you've done that set up

1764
02:04:14,830 --> 02:04:17,670
Chas:
work like the amount of work that they did

1765
02:04:17,670 --> 02:04:21,230
Chas:
in shawn of the dead to establish real world

1766
02:04:21,230 --> 02:04:24,570
Chas:
relationships real world stakes real world

1767
02:04:24,570 --> 02:04:29,810
Chas:
experience to violence juxtaposing it with the humor but that it wasn't all

1768
02:04:29,810 --> 02:04:34,130
Chas:
humor all the time because then we would have gotten to that mother death scene

1769
02:04:34,130 --> 02:04:41,370
Chas:
and it would have felt not as powerful not earned yeah not earned wouldn't have been as impactful all.

1770
02:04:41,370 --> 02:04:45,650
Mel:
Three of these really escalate to the tonal shifts.

1771
02:04:45,650 --> 02:04:46,670
Chas:
Whereas the tonal.

1772
02:04:46,670 --> 02:04:49,310
Mel:
Shifts like with shawn of the dead the tonal shift kind of whips back and forth

1773
02:04:49,310 --> 02:04:53,810
Mel:
with swiss army man it takes 10 pages to wretches up and with sorry to bother

1774
02:04:53,810 --> 02:04:58,670
Mel:
you it's like bam tonal shift and we're out but all of them in the lead up i

1775
02:04:58,670 --> 02:05:02,350
Mel:
think the lead up is you know 70 pages is.

1776
02:05:02,350 --> 02:05:03,910
Chas:
The shortest um.

1777
02:05:03,910 --> 02:05:09,190
Mel:
So there's quite a bit of work that goes into these massive tonal shift scenes.

1778
02:05:09,490 --> 02:05:15,110
Chas:
Well, the fact that Sorry to Bother You, which I think is just as surreal at

1779
02:05:15,110 --> 02:05:18,130
Chas:
the end as Swiss Army Man is, right?

1780
02:05:18,390 --> 02:05:23,530
Chas:
But opens with a different director would have not felt surreal at all.

1781
02:05:23,710 --> 02:05:26,490
Chas:
You know, the first nine pages of that script.

1782
02:05:26,810 --> 02:05:34,430
Chas:
So really took its time in educating us as to how this movie is going to be treated.

1783
02:05:35,490 --> 02:05:40,210
Mel:
I would argue, it's interesting that you found it happening in that club scene on the page.

1784
02:05:40,550 --> 02:05:46,210
Mel:
I think because I'd seen the movie before, I didn't really find it till page 14.

1785
02:05:46,550 --> 02:05:50,510
Chas:
Oh, I didn't find it on the page. I felt it in the film and then looked for

1786
02:05:50,510 --> 02:05:51,810
Chas:
it on the page and could see.

1787
02:05:52,070 --> 02:05:52,890
Mel:
Right, right, right.

1788
02:05:52,890 --> 02:05:56,470
Chas:
Not that it was telling me how that was going to feel so different,

1789
02:05:56,470 --> 02:06:00,710
Chas:
but it's interesting to see like a huge page of text.

1790
02:06:00,910 --> 02:06:01,350
Mel:
Yep.

1791
02:06:01,350 --> 02:06:07,950
Chas:
Whereas I think the scene, it would not have been a minute of screen time in that VIP room.

1792
02:06:08,070 --> 02:06:11,490
Chas:
It felt like an almost violent assault that was much shorter than that.

1793
02:06:11,590 --> 02:06:17,170
Chas:
But they took the time to make you go, oh, there's a reason why I'm experiencing

1794
02:06:17,170 --> 02:06:22,210
Chas:
this very tiny room becoming slowly more absurdly crowded.

1795
02:06:22,450 --> 02:06:26,130
Mel:
I love that, that you feel really crowded while watching in a tiny room.

1796
02:06:26,250 --> 02:06:28,810
Mel:
And then the page is literally just crowded with text.

1797
02:06:29,010 --> 02:06:32,010
Mel:
Like there's no white space on that page. Pun intended.

1798
02:06:32,350 --> 02:06:33,570
Chas:
Yeah. Awesome.

1799
02:06:33,810 --> 02:06:34,150
Mel:
Cool.

1800
02:06:35,590 --> 02:06:39,790
Chas:
Well, thank you very much, Mel. Thank you for, like, without you,

1801
02:06:39,850 --> 02:06:43,950
Chas:
once again, this would not have happened as soon and possibly not at all.

1802
02:06:44,030 --> 02:06:48,390
Chas:
And also, thank you, amazing Patreons, for choosing homework,

1803
02:06:48,670 --> 02:06:52,890
Chas:
offering suggestions, your championing both before and after the episodes.

1804
02:06:53,110 --> 02:06:55,330
Chas:
They bring you more draft zero more often.

1805
02:06:55,730 --> 02:07:01,530
Chas:
Find out more info in the show notes. But in particular, thanks to our Superist

1806
02:07:01,530 --> 02:07:08,470
Chas:
Patreons, Alexandra, Jen, Jesse, Krob, Lily, Malay, Paolo, Randy, Sandra,

1807
02:07:09,030 --> 02:07:10,830
Chas:
Thies, and Thomas.

1808
02:07:11,330 --> 02:07:15,790
Chas:
Amazing work, people. Thank you that we finally got you this long promised episode.

1809
02:07:15,950 --> 02:07:18,410
Chas:
Sorry that Stu isn't here. I'm sure he'll make us pay for it.

1810
02:07:18,510 --> 02:07:21,990
Chas:
But he should be back for next episode.

1811
02:07:22,430 --> 02:07:26,550
Chas:
And I think we've got some interesting ones, some good stuff coming up.

1812
02:07:27,010 --> 02:07:27,510
Mel:
Huzzah!

1813
02:07:30,210 --> 02:07:34,130
Excerpts:
I hope you all feel like arguing with either Stu or myself about anything on

1814
02:07:34,130 --> 02:07:35,750
Excerpts:
this episode or anything in general.

1815
02:07:35,910 --> 02:07:42,550
Excerpts:
And you can find many ways of getting in touch with us at our website at draft-zero.com.

1816
02:07:42,730 --> 02:07:46,930
Excerpts:
At the website, you'll also find the show notes for this and all our other episodes.

1817
02:07:47,090 --> 02:07:52,410
Excerpts:
As well as links to support us and spread the word for free via a rating and

1818
02:07:52,410 --> 02:07:54,130
Excerpts:
review on Apple Podcasts.

1819
02:07:54,230 --> 02:07:57,850
Excerpts:
Very important for spreading the word. Or if you think that what we do here

1820
02:07:57,850 --> 02:08:02,550
Excerpts:
is worth a dollar or preferably more than a dollar, then you can also find links

1821
02:08:02,550 --> 02:08:08,090
Excerpts:
to our Patreon page to support us getting these episodes to you quicker.

1822
02:08:08,570 --> 02:08:11,370
Excerpts:
Thanks. And thanks for listening.