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Welcome to another edition of the Always Be Testing podcast with your 

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host, Ty De Grange. Get a guided tour of the world of growth, performance 

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marketing, customer acquisition, paid media, and affiliate marketing. 

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We talk with industry experts and discuss experiments and their learnings in growth, 

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marketing, and life. Time to nerd out, check your biases at the door, and 

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have some fun talking about data driven growth and lessons learned. 

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Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Always Be Testing podcast. I'm your 

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host, Ty DeGrange, and I am really excited to sit down and talk with 

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Amy Kreider. Hi, Amy. Hi. How are you? I'm doing well. I'm doing well 

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hanging out here in Austin, Texas. The weather has been one 

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hundred degrees most of the summer, as you may know. And, it started to cool 

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down, but it seems to just kinda keep hitting us with these early fall hundred degree days, 

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which is a little bit of a surprise, which is not rad. I feel you. Richmond, 

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Virginia is very humid, in the summers, which we have come to learn since we 

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moved down here a couple years ago. So Hopefully, you get some of that nice fall weather coming soon. 

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Hoping. Fall weather, pumpkin spice, pumpkin everything. Yeah. I 

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don't hate that. I'm I'm excited for all the things that are fall as much as we can get them now. I think we're 

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kinda here in in Texas trying to channel as much as much of it as possible. 

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Well, I'm super excited to dive in with you, and I think our audience will be as well. Amy, for 

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those of you who don't know, has a ton of experience in affiliate marketing. She's a great 

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practitioner, both on the b two b side, which will be fun to dive into as well as d two c 

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ecom retail. So super excited to to dive in there and share. We've worked 

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with great clients like Square, DocuSign, Squarespace, a lot of knowledge, and 

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and I'm excited to dive in. So really appreciate you joining. I'm excited. Yeah. 

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Maybe just by starting off, tell us a little bit about your background. Yeah. Definitely. 

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So like a a lot of people in in this industry, my 

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entryway into affiliate was by chance. I grew up I played soccer, 

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and I got the opportunity to play soccer at Wake Forest, where I majored in 

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communications. And I thought I would stick with that sports world, do something 

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in sports, most likely sports marketing of some kind. And so after 

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college, I went down to Florida and I got to work, on 

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in TV marketing. So Fox Sports, Sun Sports, very glamorous, really 

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cool. And, and I thought, wow, this is what this is what I'm going to be doing. I mean, as life always 

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throws us curveballs, I got in, my old coach from Wake Forest 

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was up in Philadelphia working with the women's professional soccer team there and 

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told me to come on up and try out. I did not make the team, but I got 

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offered a job. And so my sort of real working world started in the 

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professional sports, doing everything, marketing, sales, a little 

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bit of, of everything from there. And my boss ended 

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up finding a digital marketing company in Philadelphia called 

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DMI Partners. And she said, you should come work here. I was able to move 

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into the city, and that was where I first got my exposure to 

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affiliate marketing. DMI specialized in lead generation. And so I started 

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by building out campaigns. I was placing pixels, finding partners 

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to run, managing budgets. So it was really a great opportunity for me to 

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see what affiliate was from really the foundation of tracking 

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partners, who they are, and, of course, the lead generation quality is 

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really important because you're not paying for sales. So, it was really important to kind 

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of understand the strategy there. I was with DMI for five years, and 

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I just learned to love affiliate. It almost was like a puzzle to me, sort of figuring out 

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what the right mix was and what to do. And I wanted to continue to work 

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in the in the industry, and I but I wanted to work directly with clients and get 

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more involved in their strategy. So in twenty sixteen, I was lucky 

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to join the acceleration partners team, and I got to work with amazing 

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brands across all verticals, including the the b two b clients that you 

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mentioned earlier in my intro. And then I got the opportunity also to join our 

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global accounts team and work with clients across all regions. So really 

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getting exposure to the strategy, not just in the US, but what 

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does it look like in APAC in Europe and even markets within Europe. And all of this just 

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continued to sort of unravel my interest in why I love affiliate 

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marketing and, of course, the client services piece, and just working with people. 

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And I was there for six years. I ended my career at EP on, as an 

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account director on their global accounts team. And the timing was just right for my 

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family last May where we decided that I would step away from working 

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world to travel and spend time with my daughters. So I 

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just am coming off of sort of eighteen months of doing all of that, an 

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amazing experience, lots of challenges, but would never regret it. And now as I'm 

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reentering the industry, I'm coming back consulting for companies. 

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So which has been a yeah. It's been amazing that I've gotten to use just a lot of experience 

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and skills, that I've gained across, you know, the multiple roles and companies that I've been 

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at. I love it. How old are your daughters? Four and a half and two and a half. I'm in the thick of it. I 

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think you and I are in different ways, with a three year old and a 

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seven month old. So it's awesome. Yes. I'm excited to hear. What what was that 

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like taking that time off? I mean, I know we're gonna get to it, but I'm ready to jump right into that part. 

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It was hard to take the leap. It was scary. You think about what does that mean then 

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coming back? Am I stuck to that? And I just I listened to 

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a lot of part I'm a big self personal development, self development. 

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And finally taking that leap knowing it was sort of the right opportunity in 

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life. Windows can close. And so we took that. We got to go 

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see so many new places. We traveled, saw out west in the US and got to go to Europe 

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for a couple of months. So it it opened my eyes to a lot of patience. To being honest, 

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there there were definitely challenges and struggles, but I think we're instilling in our girls a sense 

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of adventure, which I love to see. They love to pack a suitcase now. So I 

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love it. What's kind of the self development, or was there some development books or podcasts 

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or experts or or people that really influenced you or kind of shed light in areas that really 

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helped you? Yeah. One of the biggest ones I love, Jay Shetty is 

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sort of my personal development mentor in a sense. But he had 

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done an interview with Gwyneth Paltrow, and she talked about how life is just a bunch of mini 

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experiments that we should do, whether it's a day, a week, a month, a year. And 

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there's really not a lot of risk. The worst case was it didn't work out, and I 

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needed to go back and find a job. And so I think just hearing that gave me that 

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sense of like, okay, I can't mess this up too much. And it's a risk worth taking. 

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Takes a little bit of the pressure off, doesn't it? And it's nice to clarify. That's so 

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cool. And and I love that you did some traveling with your girls. Can I, what was some 

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of the maybe highlights of the west the west, part of the US? 

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Oh, man. We got to explore a lot of Utah. Arches National Park, 

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Zion, just beautiful out there. I think one of the things, it's 

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easy to say, oh, we wanna go somewhere outside of the US. There's so many beautiful places 

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inside of our country, to see. Yeah. And, yeah, it was 

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just incredible landscape. I love that. I feel the same way. I feel the same way. Every time 

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we go somewhere unique or different, there's there's a lot of it that we haven't touched yet. 

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So it's it's kind of exciting. Yeah. So, you know, back to some of the 

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affiliate account management, experience that you've had, which has been extensive. When 

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you think about affiliate account management and you think about, like, best practice, What 

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are some of the things that come to mind for you in the world of affiliate marketing and affiliate client 

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management? I think two things. The first being relationships. 

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You know, what I've loved about affiliate is it's not transactional. 

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It is important to get to know the partners that you're working with, to understand their 

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goals as much as you're understanding your clients' goals. Because at the end of the day, it is a 

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partnership and we want both parties to be successful. 

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And there are just such amazing people in this industry. So that was really the first, and I 

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think that's important. And the second is using data. I'm a 

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math person. I almost majored in math. I'm a math person. I'm a puzzle person. But 

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I think one of the things I really learned in my experience is that you gotta 

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look at the numbers. You gotta analyze it. And that is what is your best support for 

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knowing what to do for your clients, what campaigns to run, what commissions 

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to pay, what pay placements to run. All of that is just can be really leaned 

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on by data. I love that. Definitely resonates. You kinda touched on the 

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puzzle twice so far. It's such such a kind of cool beacon for you, and I feel like it's a 

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good one to hone in on. What are some of those things that kinda need your eyes to light up in 

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affiliate marketing and drew you to the channel and gets you excited about it. And it sounds 

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like perhaps something to do with that, but I'd love to hear your thoughts. I love 

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that there's not one path to get to a goal. So you could 

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have two clients that are in the same category and have similar 

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goals, but they have a different product, a different target audience. They may have a different budget 

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to work with. So everything sort of required this different fit. How do, you know, 

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how do all the different partner types fit together? What's the contribution from certain partner types? 

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So I just felt like there was different challenges. So across all the clients I've 

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worked with, I never really been able to say, oh, this worked with this one, so it's gonna work with you. And 

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that is what I think excites me and keeps me going when it 

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comes to to the strategy. I would have to agree. It's, it's so many layers 

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and so many channels within a within a channel and so many options and campaigns 

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and and levers and mediums to pull that it truly finds it. And there's 

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always something new. It's such an evolving channel. I mean, you have your foundational 

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players, but since I've been in the industry, I mean, there's new ways, influencers 

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popping up, brand to brand. There's just new partners. Buy now, pay later came in. So 

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it's just, like, constantly learning and figuring out how do they fall in the mix. And 

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so I just I love that evolution of the approach too. Yeah. I love 

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it. Couldn't agree more with you know, you've had a lot of experience in b to 

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b, enterprise SaaS, innovative companies, also direct to consumer 

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e comm, retail. Maybe starting with the consumer side, when you 

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look under the hood of a program, what do you typically see as 

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kind of that the biggest need of improvement or optimization? One of them 

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is commission rates. I think to say we can pay all the partners or here's 

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our standard commission rate. I think there's so many unique ways to pull 

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different levers with different partners even to say we're gonna pay all loyalty this 

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rate. I mean, they have different capabilities. They have different targeting. So 

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and I think there's a lot of opportunity to be really strategic, in 

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commission rates within a program. I think there's always an opportunity to get 

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more out of existing partners. We talked about the evolution of new partners coming into the 

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space, but also the partnerships that have maybe been in a program for a long time 

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are constantly evaluating their capabilities and improving how they 

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can target their readers or their audience. And so I just think having 

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those always on conversations to optimize those partnerships 

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is a great opportunity for clients to just sort of grow and and 

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align. Love it. And then, conversely, love to hear your perspective having worked on some 

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really great enterprise b to b brands. What are some of the learnings there? And 

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when you kind of assess a program, what is often the the need or the or the 

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a what we need to look at, but there you just have to be a little bit more 

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I don't wanna use the word strategic, but targeted in terms of which publishers 

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you're you're using. The same set of foundational publishers 

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when it comes to retail clients is not gonna necessarily work for b two b. It's 

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a different target audience. So finding the niche of publishers that 

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can, you know, have business decision makers is, I think, one of the biggest ones I 

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learned when I took over my first b two b program. There's 

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also different considerations in the sales cycle. So how you're promoting, 

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a lot more research based sites and comparison sites. You know, companies are 

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looking to understand that when there are a lot of options out there and they're making a decision for 

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their business. So those are probably the biggest two when it comes to the differences 

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with b to b than b to c. Yeah. And maybe kind of broad, but also 

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b to b leaning on this question. How have you seen the partner types evolve and 

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change? It feels like there's been you know, in some ways, some things don't necessarily 

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maybe evolve in a in a affiliate or partner marketing, but in other ways, they certainly do. And I'd love to hear 

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your perspective on maybe how some of those changes you've witnessed in your career 

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and maybe specifically to to b two b and part the partners themselves. Yeah. I think 

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for b two b at Serted, there are a lot, you know, content sites were a good place to 

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start. You have a lot of the small business sites, and then, of course, you have 

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your comparison partners. I think in today's, it's going to evolve a 

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lot into potentially some influencer. You know, you have 

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LinkedIn. You have a lot of people posting about business, about personal. So it's a 

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lot more of a social platform or evolving into one. So I can very 

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much see that as an opportunity for business in their affiliate programs, almost 

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kinda taking that to the influencer extent. And then also brand to brand is 

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another, I think, emerging channel. It's been talked about on 

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the retail side or b to c side. But with b to b, it's a great lever 

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and opportunity because you're able to look at more of a complimentary product or 

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service that would have the similar target audience as you. You know, with b to 

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b, you're looking at, okay, what size business? Not every business has the same needs either. So 

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business may be fifty or less employees or, you know, fifty to two hundred, two hundred 

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plus, like different sizes have different needs. So if you can find another company with 

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a similar target business as yours, doing a cross promotion, 

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and that I think will be another great opportunity to come for the b to b 

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vertical. Yeah. I I love that commentary. I feel like the the e commerce 

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content is has grown and exploded. There's so much interest there, and that just keeps happening. 

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You see the the influencer opportunity continue to grow, and it feels like 

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a little bit of this, you know, divide between consumer and enterprise, I feel like, is 

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starting to chip away a little bit. It sounds like, you know, you maybe you've seen that 

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happening a little bit as well. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Very cool. You kind 

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of highlighted some of the the difference differences that you see in, you know, the b to b 

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affiliate marketing programs that are run well and firing on all cylinders. And when you when 

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you kinda think through, like, what are the characteristics of a great you know, b to b affiliate 

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program just to kinda take it a step further, what are some of the things that you like to see 

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generally speaking, noting it's it's gonna be a little bit different? I think 

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if for a successful b to b, and I think, you know, you can run into this with, we you 

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know, b to b or b to c. But for B2B, I think brand and product 

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awareness and competitors are two big things to sort of think through as a company when you're 

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looking at is affiliate the direction that we should go or not. 

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You know, if you have a really strong brand awareness about what your product 

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is, what it does, and you don't have a lot of competitors, most 

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consumers are probably if they know exactly what what you do, what your product is, and there's no one 

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else to go to, the likelihood that affiliate may be as incremental as you think, 

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you know, will be could be a challenge. I'm not saying it will be. It could be. I have 

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seen very successful programs that have proven 

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these points wrong. So, you know, it's not, again, not an answer across the 

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board. But if you're launching a new product or a new service or you 

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have competitors, you're you're a business that's coming into a space where there are competitors, 

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affiliate can prove really, really valuable because, again, you're going on content sites, 

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education to decision makers, the comparisons for how does 

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our product compare to this product and the offerings and the pricing and all that. A lot of 

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that b to b we found is, you know, is a different decision cycle. So unlike 

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shopping a pair of yoga pants, there's not quite as much research going into it. You know, 

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they know the brand and but with when it comes to, like, software 

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that a company is gonna be using, they wanna know exactly, like, okay. What are all the features I'm getting 

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and what level? And if there's a competitor, that comparison site is just invaluable. 

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And to get on there on a performance basis is, you know, a great way to go. 

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So I think that's definitely two considerations, I would say, as a as 

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a company Yeah. To take a look at. For sure. And and, obviously, with, 

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you know, the theme of the pod always be testing, and you kind of alluded to it, you know, in the, 

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Gwyneth Paltrow discussion earlier around the value of doing things as 

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experiments. But, you know, in terms of maybe some of the career learnings 

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before some of the life learnings we'll get to, but would love to hear maybe what tests 

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or what learnings or what experiments that you felt were maybe super interesting, maybe 

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counterintuitive in your career over the years, whether whether it's, like, personal 

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career learnings or or actual campaign and client learnings from from 

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some of the various campaigns and tests run on on affiliate partner marketing? Yeah. I 

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think broadly, I think saying, how do we test this 

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but put it within guardrails that you feel comfortable? Right? It's like trying something 

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new, but having that cushion to say, like, okay. Well, we won't go bankrupt because of 

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this test. Right? So a lot of times, the situation with clients and what I've seen, 

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especially on certain comparison sites, testing a CPC. Right? 

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It's like, okay, that's gonna feel uncomfortable. Right? Because there's more risk on the client side than 

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there's going to be ensuring we're getting a return there. But again, kind 

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of two things, leaning back on the data, right, to do that with a partner that you you 

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have some information on. Okay. How does how do they convert? What is the quality 

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like? And to say, well, we can just improve and get more if we're able to find the right 

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CPC. Then also saying, you know what, let's just make it up a five k budget or a ten k 

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budget. So then no matter what, like, we have to feel comfortable if that does not 

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back into what we want as the end goal that we have that guardrail. Yep. And then it's like, you know what? 

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We learned from that and what didn't work and why didn't it work. I think being able to 

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reflect on the things that don't work is even more valuable than than 

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reflecting on the things that do work. It's, you know, replicating. But you can gain some really 

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insightful learnings, not just, oh, we should never do that again. Absolutely. And But 

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asking, how can we do that differently next time to make it work? 

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Absolutely. And and documenting that, institutional knowledge and importing that into 

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the next test and experiment is is such a a great great way of thinking. I 

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love that. It's funny you mentioned, like, the flat fee. It seems like I don't know what 

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you've seen, but I I imagine is it have you seen it where that CPC or that 

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flat fee will actually depending upon the partner and the client, does that sometimes outperform 

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that everyone's favorite cost per purchase or cost per lead model? 

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Does that happen? Yeah. It absolutely can. Again, I think 

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there's not a tried and true saying, like, this will work for you, but I've seen 

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with well known brands, especially in those comparison. I mean, when it when you 

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change positions within those articles, it can start to really perform 

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and take off. So it's sort of finding that that sweet spot both for the client 

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and for the publisher. Yeah. I like it. I think you talked about this a little bit, but circling back 

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to assessing if a b to b brand is ready. I 

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am I'm kind of curious to maybe double click on that a little bit. You talked about kind of 

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brand recognition and competitors. Are there other factors that you look at 

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when you kind of assess a b to b brand and affiliate marketing to say, hey. Does this channel 

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really make sense for them? I'm curious to know know your perspective more on that. 

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One thing I I've actually run into is sort of the I mean, this could happen again for b to c, 

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but the reviews of the service and the product can play an impact on how successful. 

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Again, the decision making is a is more in-depth. I think I could say that confidently 

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than maybe a b to c. Now if you're buying something like refrigerator, I'm sure that consumer is doing just 

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as much research. But when you're you know, for these businesses, they're gonna 

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look. And if you have bad reviews on your site about your service or your 

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product, that is going to play a big role in 

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in how you convert with you know, they're looking at the affiliate content, 

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but then they're also gonna do a little bit more due diligence. So I have seen brands where it's not 

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just going to plug a hole. Right? That needs to be good. So sort of saying, 

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look internally, let's make sure our product and our site and everything is is buttoned up, and then we can take it to 

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affiliate. So in that case, it wouldn't matter if you are the only one in your space. If you don't have good reviews, 

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it's probably not going to going to work out. Yeah. I love that. I recall, 

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I think it was Sean Frank on the Nine Figure Operators podcast talks a lot about that 

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and prioritizing that over most things, really having a killer 

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product before you're really, you know, over a certain NPS, certain number of reviews, certain number 

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of, types of reviews before you can really, fully 

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distribute or or stand certainly stand up a brand new performance marketing channel. Yeah. It's a really 

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good call. Yeah. And I think across the board, the clients who 

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are see success, especially earlier on, are the clients that are willing to test. If they 

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have a little bit of budget, they're willing to pay for a flat fee or test this 

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article or move the, you know, commission up to a cost per 

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clicker. And I'm not saying you have to do that across the board, but they're they're at least willing to entertain those 

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ideas and test because with more testing, you get more learning. Yeah. Right? And so the clients that 

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are willing to do that a little bit more from the start are probably gonna 

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see quicker success because they'll know what works, what doesn't work, and how to optimize against it. 

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I love it. Yeah. Are there any ways you've seen, maybe tests 

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structured a way that you really like or maybe some, like, other kind of 

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don't do don't do this kind of thing, like, myths or things like that that you've maybe found 

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out? Because I think the experiment thing from my view is is so central 

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to what we hear a lot of, and I I love this concept. And I think kind of, 

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like, are there ways that you maybe seen them set up right or maybe set up not so effectively? 

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I mean, I think to set them up right when you don't set them up right, you haven't used at 

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least some kind of data. It could be a new partner. Right? But having a a conversation with the 

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partner to understand what to expect. You know, have you done this with 

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another brand, and how did it perform, and what can we expect in terms of clicks? You 

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know, great way to also kind of work is that the putting some of the onus on the 

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publisher to say, okay. Let's guarantee some click. We have to guarantee certain number of views or certain 

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number of clicks in order to fulfill the campaign so that we know, okay, it's not just gonna be an 

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article. And it may have a really strong click through rate or conversion rate, but it barely gets seen. Right? 

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So they need to do some promotion on their end to get it in front of maybe more on 

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social or out in an email, but I was like, something that gives it some additional push. 

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But I think that's where you're gonna find your best success is that you've done the due 

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diligence upfront. In terms of the the structure performance, you're 

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sort I think the upfront work is where it's at. I love it. Yeah. And then, 

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so awesome. I love the soccer experience and the athlete experience. I'd love to hear any 

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any highlights that you recall from your your playing days? 

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So many. So many highlights. I think 

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I would say the one thing I love about, like, my soccer is I feel like sometimes in 

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affiliate, I feel I played midfield. So you always had to kinda see. I see it when I drive too. Right? You 

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have to see the opportunity and just looking big picture, but also being able to narrow. So 

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I think that experience has helped me sort of continue to go, like, zoom out, zoom in. Zoom out, zoom 

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in because your head always has to be on a swivel is what I said. But Yep. No. I 

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I was am always forever grateful in my soccer because it took me to a great 

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university, and I wish I had just one one highlight I could share. But I have gotten to 

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play against some of the women's national team players, which is always fun to to see. That's amazing. 

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That's very cool. It's quite an accomplishment. Are you think that your daughters might be interested 

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in soccer? Are you gonna encourage it? You know what? I'm very mindful of that 

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and not pushing them to do it because I did it. But I think I almost have a backwards 

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perspective of it because growing up, it took so much of my time. And 

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as a parent now, I'm like, man, my parents were very dedicated, and I now have 

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much better appreciation for how much time they put into supporting 

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me than what I did. Not that I wouldn't do that for my own daughters, but I'm like, 

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I'll let them sort of figure out if this is what they really want to do. I don't need to push 

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them to do it. And, you know, just with my own 

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personal development and understanding who I am in questioning that, I get the opportunity to use that with my 

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daughters. And, you know, I don't know if they'll both of them have very different personalities, and I don't know 

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if they both will be good will want to do team sports. They may want to do more of an individual, 

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which, I'm really excited to see them kinda grow into who they they are, but I'm not pushing it per 

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se. My oldest is playing soccer right now, and she basically plays for the popsicle 

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at the end. I love it. Yeah. And so young, and they can try so many new 

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things and who knows what they'll be interested in. But I like the open mindedness about that and, 

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certainly can identify. Probably a good segue, you know, becoming a mom 

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is no small feat, no small change in your life and certainly 

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influenced how you navigate career and family and balance it all, which, is 

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certainly not easy and, not something I can I can understand, 

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although I see it, through the eyes of my my wife and our family? How did you navigate that 

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personally and professionally? I think becoming a parent in general 

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just gives you a lot of perspective on what's valuable. So a couple of 

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things that come to my mind, time is valuable. 

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After becoming a mom, prioritization at work became a huge interest of 

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mine. So how do I prioritize projects? I can't do it all. I'm not going to work 

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until 08:00 at night, so I need to be better at planning out 

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my day. And if I have too much on my plate, being able to say, okay. What deserves my 

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attention today? What can be pushed to tomorrow? What needs to be pushed to next week? What needs to be 

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delegated? So all of that became a huge interest of mine, and I still 

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love anything around prioritization today. People are 

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valuable. So I think I was able to find a better balance. I'm it may have 

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been the sports in me, but I was very hyper focused in terms of, 

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like, get the job done. Get the job done. And as soon as I became a mom, I feel like I got a little 

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bit a lot better, at understanding the personal 

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lives of myself and of the people on my team. So if something came up, it 

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just gave me that perspective that, you know what? You need to take time, take time. That is more 

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important. We are not, I remember one of my bosses saying, like, we're not 

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heart surgeons here. You know, like, we can push something back, if 

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your if your family needs you or you need to be somewhere else, you know, do that. And, it 

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was a lot more respectful and understanding. And then lastly, I think the personal development at 

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AP, I got introduced to it before I was a mom, and I I liked it. It was interesting. It 

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got me going. But I think as soon as I became a mom, really looking at being the best version of 

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myself and being vulnerable and being able to say, oh, I'm 

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not strong at this. I'm really good at this, and let's work on my strengths, you know, 

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and not forget my weaknesses and but not harp on them. And so it just gave me a lot of 

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perspective into myself, but also time and people. Yeah. I love that. What a I 

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mean, so much in there. So many learnings professionally, personally. 

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That's phenomenal. I I'm I'm loving every bit of this and appreciate it. Yeah. And I'm 

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sure as a parent, you can understand the value of sleep. Right? Now we we really 

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appreciate that. That's not as work based, but I whenever I can get sleep, I'm like, oh, 

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this is the best. It's, it's it's amazing how much it helps all areas 

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of life and, couldn't agree more. This has been amazing, Amy. I really 

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appreciate you. And and I think also like, you know, in your consulting now, you know, 

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you, you, you're able to strike that balance. You're, you're solving big 

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a more about that. Are you feeling like the balance is there? It's giving you that right mix that you've you've kinda 

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wanted? Yeah. So I think the perspective of being home with my 

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girls for the past year and a half and coming back, I I had to think 

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really hard about what works for us and our family, not just what is everyone 

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else doing or what's expected of me. And I think there's a lot of pressure and, you know, to 

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just go back to what's comfortable. And I was very grateful to have some 

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previous coworkers and people that I've worked with reach out and share their 

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experiences with with me. So, again, just the people in the industry. And it just felt 

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like the right balance. I'm able to make my hours and my schedule, but 

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even more so, I love that I get to work on projects of all different 

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scales and across all my skill sets. So from training and development 

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to account strategy, to best practices with client services. And so 

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it's not that I'm going back and I'm honing in on one. I've loved every piece of my journey in 

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affiliate. And so I get to do that in different projects, that I'm working 

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on right now. Perfect. I love it, Amy. And for folks wanting to get in touch with you, what 

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what is the best way to find you and reach out? Probably LinkedIn would be the 

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best. Yeah. Beautiful. So nice to have you. So nice to chat and learn and and 

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dive in as always. I really appreciated it. Thank you for having me. I've loved getting getting to 

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chat b to b and and life in general. Always great. Absolutely. Thanks, 

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Amy. Thanks so much.