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Mackenzie Brown is a Cree woman with "a moccasin in both worlds". Mackenzie helps us process the recent discovery of unmarked graves at several Canadian residential schools and gives us hope for increasing understanding through Indigenous tourism.
Join Derek Hudson as he explores Essential Dynamics, a framework for approaching the challenges facing people and organizations. Consider your Quest!
And it's essential dynamics, the framework of looking at life and looking at how to improve your work habits. My name is Reed McColm, I'm your host and I am here with Mr. Derek Hudson, who came up with the framework and has much to say about it. Derek, are you all right this morning?
Derek Hudson:You know I am, but this is gonna be a tender conversation, I think.
Reed McColm:I think so too. It's very sobering indeed.
Derek Hudson:I'm really happy to have Mackenzie Brown with us today. Mackenzie and I used to work at Edmonton Economic Development, and Mackenzie joined us. Now, actually have to tell this story, Mackenzie. I hope you don't mind, but Mackenzie was seconded from the provincial tourism department to work at Edmonton Economic Development and she made a presentation at a staff meeting on what she did and then in the meeting she asked for a job.
Reed McColm:Oh my goodness. Well, that's that's a woman after my own heart. Obviously, she's worth it. I would just like to point out that Mackenzie, thank you for joining us today, and I understand you're from the Indigenous Tourism Bureau. Is that right?
Mackenzie Brown:Yes. I work with Indigenous Tourism Alberta.
Derek Hudson:And, Mackenzie, just for us, is Indigenous Tourism Alberta an independent organization then?
Mackenzie Brown:Yeah. So we are a not for profit membership based organization. We do get funding from a couple different avenues, you know, from the federal government, the provincial government, but we are a not for profit.
Derek Hudson:So Mackenzie got that job that she asked for in front of a whole bunch of people. And so that's why I got a chance to work with her. I attended indigenous awareness training that Mackenzie put on. It's fantastic. And so as we thought about having guests on season two, I really wanted to to talk to Mackenzie, and that that thought came to me before the discovery of the unmarked graves and Kamloops.
Derek Hudson:And today, we have other information about yesterday it was in Quebec and now Saskatchewan. And so I think our hearts are reeling a little bit here with the magnitude of this tragedy, which I think is gonna be uncovered over the days and weeks ahead. So the first question, we asked Mackenzie off air, are you okay to carry on with the conversation today, Mackenzie?
Mackenzie Brown:Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. And I I appreciate that a lot. Our communities right now are we're grieving.
Mackenzie Brown:You know, typically typically, it's traditional that we take an entire year actually to to grieve, but I think we've just been so overwhelmed lately. So I appreciate just the that emotional competency that you guys have had in asking me if I'm doing if I'm doing okay. The answer is no, but, the work that I do is really important.
Reed McColm:I'd like to ask, if I may, Mackenzie, aren't weren't these deaths that we're I mean, we're finding graves, in residential schools throughout Canada, former residential schools, I suppose. But we're finding unmarked graves and bodies of children, and I wonder if their absence was already grieved. Didn't we know these people had died if they don't come out of the school again? And are we surprised? I'm not sure the indigenous community would be surprised by the fact that there are graves under these schools.
Mackenzie Brown:Yeah. So, Reid, that's that's a that's a good question. You know, we have we have heard from our survivors. We have heard from our grandparents. They have been telling us these stories for years and years.
Mackenzie Brown:So I think for us as an indigenous community, and, of course, I'm just speaking to my own experience now, but I was not surprised. But I think also just, you know, having those numbers still hits you. And it was one of those things that when I first heard about the 215 children at Kamloops, at first, you know, I spent the first day just being like, oh, like, of course, we knew this. Of course, we did. But then when it starts to really set in, that's when it's almost like we start to grieve again because, it's so different when you're hearing stories as opposed to when you have that that hard evidence.
Mackenzie Brown:And I think that it's been it's it's ignited a flame in the non indigenous community because I think that they truly and are finally starting to really understand. Because they've also heard these stories, but, again, it's different when you when, the evidence is there.
Derek Hudson:Yeah. It it becomes very real. And so so, Mackenzie, to kinda to kinda get I don't wanna get to a solution. You know, that's a complex thing that's gonna take many years. But I was in a conversation with some friends, similar backgrounds to me.
Derek Hudson:Alberta born and raised, probably weren't as aware of these things when we were taught in school. It's not the way we want our society to be. It's not how we think. And so the question was so like, what do we do? How do we move forward?
Derek Hudson:And in that conversation, one thing I said was, well, I think we just need to get to know each other and to understand indigenous culture and its place. And then as I said that, I thought, and so what's the opportunity with indigenous tourism? And then I had already been thinking about bringing you on just because I think highly of you, as a person. And so now we have this opportunity. So what is it that non indigenous people who want to make things right, should be doing, could be doing?
Derek Hudson:And then what role would, tourism have in that? Because it seems like a really positive opportunity, but I don't I don't fully understand what what would be there. Now go. You've got twenty five minutes. Fantastic.
Mackenzie Brown:Yeah. You know what? Those are those are really, really good questions. One of the things that we have been saying is there are two parts to truth and reconciliation. And oftentimes, when people find out about certain aspects of the truth, they want to jump into action.
Mackenzie Brown:Because when we sit with uncomfortable feelings, we feel uncomfortable. Part of truth and reconciliation is taking those feelings on and and sitting with them, educating yourselves. And reconciliation, I think sometimes people think about it as this big thing, but there are small aspects to reconciliation, such as learning the traditional territory that you're on, learning a word in the traditional language of the territory that you're standing in. You know, if you have monetary funds donating to some amazing indigenous organizations, even purchasing indigenous. Right?
Mackenzie Brown:If you have a birthday coming up, you know, there is there are some amazing artisans all all across Alberta. So reconciliation can be these small things, but it really does start with truth. There are some really amazing resources out there right now. I highly recommend the University of Alberta. They have an amazing indigenous course that is completely free.
Mackenzie Brown:It's a fantastic course. There are there are books. I highly recommend reading Inconvenient Indian by by Thomas King. So so there there are aspects of education that still need to happen before we can get into those kind of action pieces. But where my passion lies is in indigenous tourism.
Mackenzie Brown:So across Alberta, we have storytellers. We have medicine keepers. We have knowledge keepers who are sharing their stories through experiential tourism. And so right now, we have an opportunity to really learn about our own backyard, to learn about the stories of the people who have been here before and who and how to create relationships with one another. And indigenous tourism gives that opportunity, you know, whether it's you wanna go on a plant walk or you wanna learn about indigenous cuisine, traditional indigenous food sovereignty, about the stories of Indigenous people, drumming and singing, cultural centers.
Mackenzie Brown:You know? There's we we currently have a 58 members at Indigenous Tourism Alberta, which means that there are a 58 unique experiences for you to go to this summer, next summer in Alberta, and they all want to help you to learn about our culture in an appropriate and a really fun way.
Derek Hudson:That that sounds fantastic, and I'm salivating already. Now one of the disadvantages of, the podcast world is there's no visual, but
Reed McColm:Mackenzie tells me. Consider that a disadvantage, by
Derek Hudson:the way. Reed keeps claiming he's good looking. Mackenzie, tell us what's on your t shirt.
Mackenzie Brown:My t shirt says I was told that there would be fry bread.
Derek Hudson:So my father and my stepmother, about twenty five years ago, were sent as missionaries for our church to the Navajo Nation.
Mackenzie Brown:Oh, wow.
Derek Hudson:And they lived, they lived on the res, and worked with the people there for a year and a half and, came back loving fry bread. And one of one of the cool things about the Navajo is they call themselves the Dene, because they're from Alberta and the Northwest Territories. My understanding is they kept going south, until they found some land that no one else had, It wasn't the best land. So fry bread makes me salivate right there. So, you know
Reed McColm:I like anything with the word fry in it.
Mackenzie Brown:Yeah. Oh, yeah. Absolutely.
Derek Hudson:And and so one of the things that you said though was I I can't remember what it was exactly, but there's, like, appropriate tourism experiences. And so I get that the members of your organization are all indigenous operated?
Mackenzie Brown:Yes. Yeah. So we support fifty one percent indigenous owned tourism businesses. And, you know, we have certain we have certain protocols. There are things that are meant to be shared, and there are things that are not meant to be shared.
Mackenzie Brown:And our members, we encourage and we promote that they are connecting with their elders, that they are getting permission from their communities to share these certain things, and authenticity of indigenous tourism is also ensured through the active involvement of indigenous peoples.
Derek Hudson:So if a if a family or individual wanted either just out of curiosity, just looking for a good time, or maybe in a sense of this increased understanding, where to participate in any of those activities, they're they're, that's a respectful way to learn. And, there's no, sort of appropriation or stereotyping or anything like that involved in the kinds of things that your organization would promote.
Mackenzie Brown:Absolutely. Yep. And the thing the thing is as well is that, you know, our our businesses, our members, they are 51% Indigenously owned. Most of them are a %. The beautiful thing about indigenous tourism is, one, we see the economic impact.
Mackenzie Brown:You know, prior to COVID, it it contributed to a hundred and $60,000,000 of the GDP contribution. So we see that economic impact where it creates economic sovereignty for our nations, but then we also see those social impacts. And they almost outweigh those economic impacts because it means that our people are making a living teaching about who we are as indigenous people or living in their traditional ways. And I think that that's something that's very beautiful, and it helps people to reclaim their language, to reclaim their culture, to you know, all these different things. It's it's it's I believe I believe that it is a you know, there's benefits on both sides.
Mackenzie Brown:There's benefits for indigenous people. There are benefits for non indigenous people who want to learn.
Reed McColm:I have lots of questions that you're bringing up through your conversation, and I one of them is that if I want to see the stars, I go to a planetarium. If I want to see I have in my mind, which may be my preconceived prejudices as well, I have, okay, if I want to see a concert, I know where to go. I go to a concert hall. If I want to see a play, I go to a theater. If I want to learn about indigenous people in Edmonton, Treaty five
Derek Hudson:territory. Treaty six? Treaty six.
Reed McColm:Okay. See, Treaty five was just not good enough. Excuse me, being old enough to have made treaty five. But in Treaty 6 territory, where should I go? Because I was raised here Edmonton.
Reed McColm:I went to school here, I live here, I have lived here a long time, and I don't know where to go if I want to learn specifically about an Indigenous culture.
Mackenzie Brown:That is a fantastic question. I'm so happy that you asked that question. Having worked at Explore Edmonton, that was my entire portfolio, was on growing indigenous tourism within the Edmonton area. And, actually, Edmonton within Alberta right now is is, we're seeing the most growth happening. And we actually just recently, indigenous tourism Alberta signed an MOU with Explore Edmonton as well to make sure that we're keeping one another accountable and helping to grow this sector.
Mackenzie Brown:So if you want to experience indigenous culture, there are many ways of doing it within Edmonton. So the first, we have a couple different experiences that are culinary experiences, for example. So we have Kalina, Kalina on
Reed McColm:the
Mackenzie Brown:lake. An amazing operator who's, like, one of my favorites is Scott Eisenhoff with Pepest Chow, and he's actually just opening up a permanent space at the Edmonton Downtown Farmers Market. So that's where you can get all yes. So that's where you can get all your culinary experiences. If you want to learn about indigenous art, beading, Edmonton has one of the largest indigenous artist market collectives within Alberta, and they are also every Saturday, are at the Edmonton Downtown Farmers Market.
Mackenzie Brown:And then we also have experiences. So we have Talking Rock Tours that gives geological Metis tours within the River Valley. We have Reskilled Life that teaches you how to tan hides Metis beading. We have, the Grow Center, which is also an indigenous run organization, and Lance Cardinal, who did the big beautiful mural in IKEA. That's where his studio is currently at.
Mackenzie Brown:So there are there are so many places. There are spaces. We have the Indigenous Art Park in Edmonton. So if you want to learn about this, actually, I highly recommend heading over to explore Edmonton, because we have actually built out an entire indigenous Edmonton page where you can see all of the amazing experiences. And then last but not least, I highly recommend Metis Crossing.
Mackenzie Brown:It's about an hour outside of Edmonton, but Metis Crossing is the world's largest Metis cultural center.
Derek Hudson:Oh, wonderful. So that's, that fills up the summer dance card nicely, does it?
Mackenzie Brown:There you go. I've I've made your whole summer plans, Reed.
Reed McColm:So
Derek Hudson:if, you know, we're we're we're reading the papers and we're seeing this news, And people are people are sad and they're mad, and and they take it upon themselves to educate themselves, including participating in some of these experiences. What kind of message do you think that that is, and, you know, what does that do for the indigenous people and the and the rest of of us?
Mackenzie Brown:You know, I can I can speak to my own experiences with that because I, myself, I'd I'm a I'm a traditional drummer, singer, and storyteller? And I've done experiences within Edmonton. This past winter. I did some some, drumming and singing and star storytelling at the Botanic Gardens. And you can tell when people come and they want to learn.
Mackenzie Brown:You can see that intention behind them, and it truly means a lot. It means a lot to indigenous people. You know, we always say that if you wanna be a true ally, it means that you create relatives. It means that I am not only just a friend to you, but you are my relative, and I will treat you the way that I would treat a relative with care and respect. And that goes both ways.
Mackenzie Brown:Right? Those are cyclical relationships. And it truly does mean the world when we see people who want to learn and who have good intentions behind wanting to learn. It makes a difference.
Derek Hudson:Fantastic. So, Mackenzie, the other topic that I'd like to discuss, and I I really think that we've got tremendous insight and value from you today already, and we'll make sure that we provide a link to at least explore edmonton.com's indigenous site. This is all done in the context of essential dynamics, and I worked on that over the past year. One of the things that helped me understand this is this idea that in life there are these natural opposing forces. That's sort of the dynamic part of essential dynamics.
Derek Hudson:And the other concept was that if we can consider the things we do as a quest, then the idea of opposition isn't so startling because quests always have challenges. And I think that perspective helps people get through tough times. And, I'm just wondering, in your culture, if some of those things it seems to me that some of those things are are pretty prevalent in the underlying philosophies, and I just wonder what what, what your thoughts are on that.
Mackenzie Brown:So one of the very first teachings of the drum because I'm a drummer. One of the very first teachings that we learn is that the drum is the heartbeat of mother earth. And even more than that, it is the very first sound that we ever hear. It's not the sound of our heartbeat. Right?
Mackenzie Brown:It's the sound of our mother's heartbeat. That heartbeat connects all of us because we all have a heartbeat and that we all hear that heartbeat. But the heartbeat also reminds us that there will be times where the beat is strong and that there will be times where the beat is soft. Right? So when you hear the heartbeat, it's that thump thump, thump thump, thump thump, weak strong, weak strong, weak strong.
Mackenzie Brown:And our life is like that too. Right? There are going to be times where you have those weak moments, and that's where you gather your circle of support so that they can carry you through those weak moments. And then you have to remind yourself that strong will be coming and that strong is around the corner. And when you're strong, that's when you put those systems in place to help you carry to help carry you through those weak times.
Mackenzie Brown:But we can't have we can't have one or the other. We do need to have both because they remind, you know, when we're in those weak times, we remember to look forward to those strong times and and to live in those strong times, to not take them for granted.
Reed McColm:Appreciate that, especially. I Wow. I think that's that's very wise as as you have shown throughout this podcast. I certainly appreciate your being here. I want to have you back at some point, if we can, just to discuss because what we raised with the questions of the residential schools, I want to know in terms of essential dynamics, Derek, what do you do when the proposed quest is flawed, or in this case, evil?
Reed McColm:The bodies were finding the attempt to assimilate out of what was considered the best for the indigenous people, how dare we make that assumption, and was that not in its way, an attempted genocide to erase the culture? And those are questions that we would have to save for another time, but I so appreciate talking to you, Mackenzie, who you can see things with clear eyes that I do think. Derek, of all your friends, is she your smartest?
Derek Hudson:Well, so what Mackenzie offers here, and this is maybe how I wanna close on it, is is the wisdom of thousands of years of people who stayed connected to nature. And, you know, we talk about drivers and constraints and Mackenzie just even in talking about the drumming, there's a natural flow to nature. I consider it as a spirituality. And one thing that we found out is you cannot get rid of that from these people. And so we should be delighted and proud that this is part of our country.
Derek Hudson:And the thing for us to do is to come together. And I'm just thrilled that Mackenzie's so brave and articulate to share with us today. One of the things that we can do to do that, and so we'll make sure that we let people know how to do that, but I think more of it is the way we need to learn more about the way we can think to be more naturally aligned with each other and with that spiritual energy that she talked about. So, Mackenzie, thank you so much. Our hearts are with you and everyone affected by the news today and the past few weeks.
Derek Hudson:Will get through this.
Reed McColm:Yeah. Thank you for turning our anger into thought and consideration. I don't know what to do with anger. Anger just simmers. But you've helped me say, okay, how do I use this terrible news into metamorphose, into something positive?
Reed McColm:So thank you, Mackenzie. For Derek Hudson. Derek, where can people reach you?
Derek Hudson:Derekhudson. Ca, and welcome to communicate on all of these things.
Reed McColm:And Mackenzie, if you tell us, does Indigenous tourism have a website?
Mackenzie Brown:We sure do. It's at indigenoustourismalberta.ca.
Reed McColm:Please visit that, and we're very glad that you visited us. And so for Bryn Griffiths in the studio and Derek here, my name is Reid McCollum, and until next time, consider your quest.