00:00:00.180 --> 00:00:06.940 Matt Abrahams: Many of us dread small talk, yet big things happen in chit chat and our starter conversations. 00:00:07.400 --> 00:00:14.259 Today in this episode, derived from a LinkedIn Live event, you'll learn essential tools to make your small talk a success. 00:00:14.899 --> 00:00:19.619 I'm Matt Abrahams, and I teach Strategic Communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:20.060 --> 00:00:23.730 Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:24.410 --> 00:00:28.320 I am super excited today to speak again with Alison Wood Brooks. 00:00:28.700 --> 00:00:31.930 Alison joined me a while back for Episode 73. 00:00:32.430 --> 00:00:39.419 Alison is the O'Brien Associate Professor of Business Administration and Hellman Faculty Fellow at the Harvard Business School. 00:00:39.890 --> 00:00:46.920 Alison's research focuses on the science of conversation and interaction, and she teaches an award winning course called Talk. 00:00:47.425 --> 00:00:51.475 Without further ado, let's jump into our new LinkedIn Live. 00:00:52.275 --> 00:00:57.475 Alison, as we start our conversation, I'm curious, what makes for a good conversation? 00:00:57.875 --> 00:00:59.955 Alison Wood Brooks: Oh, Matt, what a huge question. 00:01:00.295 --> 00:01:05.265 At a core people want to feel connected, loved, alive, productive. 00:01:05.374 --> 00:01:08.375 But how to get there varies from one moment to the next. 00:01:08.505 --> 00:01:14.225 It's a surprisingly tricky task for something that we start doing as toddlers, talking to each other. 00:01:14.495 --> 00:01:18.940 Matt Abrahams: Yeah, how have you found it works best to actually start conversations? 00:01:18.980 --> 00:01:24.939 I know a lot of us, myself included, can feel very uncomfortable and awkward in those situations. 00:01:25.289 --> 00:01:30.009 Alison Wood Brooks: There's a great quote from Veep, Selina Meyer goes, every conversation starts with a sentence. 00:01:30.019 --> 00:01:34.880 So, you know, you start with hello, but the question is, what do you do after hello? 00:01:35.315 --> 00:01:47.285 And I didn't really realize how deeply people dread small talk, like starting conversations, until I started teaching this course at Harvard called Talk. 00:01:47.534 --> 00:01:54.004 And I realized quite quickly that dread of small talk is just incredibly widespread. 00:01:54.074 --> 00:02:02.365 Almost everybody feels either some anxiety or some sort of, ugh, I don't want to do small talk, which means that it's a sort of problem to be solved. 00:02:02.565 --> 00:02:07.854 The reason I didn't really realize how much people dread small talk is because I sort of love it. 00:02:08.245 --> 00:02:10.414 Which is, I don't know if that's like a weird flex. 00:02:10.465 --> 00:02:11.024 I think not. 00:02:11.024 --> 00:02:11.984 I think it's embarrassing. 00:02:12.075 --> 00:02:13.075 Matt Abrahams: And you're so good at it. 00:02:13.405 --> 00:02:16.265 Alison Wood Brooks: Well, the reason I love it is because I think it's like a treasure hunt. 00:02:16.314 --> 00:02:22.454 I think it's this trodden ground that can be very mundane, but you have to do it. 00:02:22.464 --> 00:02:24.714 So dreading it is a little bit counterproductive. 00:02:24.714 --> 00:02:27.854 It's a place you have to start when you're talking to strangers. 00:02:27.854 --> 00:02:31.374 It's a place you have to start, even with people who you haven't seen in a while. 00:02:31.905 --> 00:02:38.415 And when you're there, the purpose it's serving is as a search, a place where you're looking for golden nuggets. 00:02:38.425 --> 00:02:46.735 So like opportunities to find something that's going to make you move in the direction of productivity, connection, fun, and something deeper. 00:02:47.405 --> 00:02:51.075 Matt Abrahams: I think the dread of small talk is something many of us are familiar with. 00:02:51.105 --> 00:02:55.424 I think though, as you've alluded to, small talk affords us great opportunities. 00:02:55.424 --> 00:03:03.384 I think there are big things that happen during small talk and maybe you and I together can help rebrand small talk, so people actually get excited about it. 00:03:03.865 --> 00:03:05.905 Alison Wood Brooks: It's unavoidable and very important. 00:03:05.915 --> 00:03:08.385 The trick actually isn't avoiding small talk. 00:03:08.405 --> 00:03:10.984 It's about making sure you don't get stuck there too long. 00:03:11.505 --> 00:03:14.405 Matt Abrahams: Ah, so how you initiate it and then move on. 00:03:14.655 --> 00:03:23.085 Speaking of small talk and conversation with people, I want to recognize that we have people joining us from all over the world and very soon we want to hear from you. 00:03:23.375 --> 00:03:30.250 So you'll be able to ask us questions and enter those questions into the chat, and Alison and I will answer those questions. 00:03:30.730 --> 00:03:34.590 Share with me your best approach to initiating small talk. 00:03:34.720 --> 00:03:39.539 What I do is, I like to just ask questions or make observations about things I've seen. 00:03:39.550 --> 00:03:41.580 How do you get these conversations started? 00:03:41.950 --> 00:03:47.690 Alison Wood Brooks: So in my course, we talk about a framework that can help, and then we'll get into sort of specific strategies of what to say. 00:03:47.990 --> 00:03:50.780 It can be helpful to think about a topic pyramid. 00:03:50.810 --> 00:03:53.530 And at the bottom of this pyramid is where small talk lives. 00:03:53.560 --> 00:03:56.160 It's topics that you could talk about with anyone. 00:03:56.340 --> 00:04:01.530 Which is why we all revert to talking about the weather, or how are you, how was your weekend? 00:04:01.780 --> 00:04:04.060 It's stuff that you can connect with anybody about. 00:04:04.590 --> 00:04:11.029 In the next tier of the pyramid is as medium talk, so slightly tailored to the person you're talking to. 00:04:11.400 --> 00:04:16.714 And tailoring it can mean that you're asking questions about them, things that they're excited to talk about. 00:04:16.985 --> 00:04:22.315 Or just topics that they have some expertise or interest in, so just getting more and more personalized. 00:04:22.554 --> 00:04:35.154 At the top of the pyramid is this sort of conversational Nirvana when you feel uniquely connected to someone, you're talking about something that only maybe the two of you can possibly talk about in a way that only the two of you can talk about it. 00:04:35.174 --> 00:04:38.455 It's where we have this magical shared reality together. 00:04:38.664 --> 00:04:44.974 So with my students, we talk about fostering just a little bit more awareness of where you are on this topic pyramid. 00:04:45.104 --> 00:04:50.854 It's not like small talk is bad, but it's helpful to know when you're there and how long you've been there. 00:04:51.074 --> 00:04:54.064 The idea is also not always to get to the peak. 00:04:54.094 --> 00:05:05.215 It would be weird to try and aim to have this like wonderful, deep, meaningful conversation with a barista at Starbucks in a thirty second interaction or with your neighbor who's just like taking out the trash. 00:05:05.634 --> 00:05:10.165 So the goal is not always to get to the peak of the pyramid, but to foster an awareness of where you are. 00:05:10.625 --> 00:05:15.735 And then, of course, don't get stuck at the base of the pyramid for too long. 00:05:16.264 --> 00:05:20.315 And just like you're saying, Matt, the best way to get out of it is by asking questions. 00:05:20.750 --> 00:05:26.680 So that you're constantly looking for these golden nuggets in the treasure hunt of a way to launch away from the base of the pyramid. 00:05:27.010 --> 00:05:34.430 Another way that you can get out of the base of the pyramid, if your partner's not really giving you a lot, you can be asking lots of questions and they're not giving you a lot. 00:05:34.640 --> 00:05:37.009 So just start to volunteer stuff of your own, right? 00:05:37.009 --> 00:05:41.990 Like, okay, I know this guy's from Ohio, so I'm going to talk about, I went to German Village once with my husband. 00:05:41.990 --> 00:05:44.419 I thought it was such a charming area in Columbus. 00:05:44.870 --> 00:05:51.770 So you just start volunteering things that they might latch onto, and hopefully that will pull you up from the base of the pyramid as well. 00:05:52.030 --> 00:06:00.509 Matt Abrahams: I really like this idea of thinking about where you're at in terms of the conversation you're having and how you start at one place, but the idea is to move upward. 00:06:00.580 --> 00:06:08.480 And starting with observation, starting with question, and if that doesn't get you moving, then you can reveal some information about yourself. 00:06:08.985 --> 00:06:26.235 I find that taking just a few moments in advance of entering a circumstance where there is small talk, where I expect there to be, to just think about some things that are of the moment or going on, can help prepare me and help me feel maybe even excited to enter in the interaction. 00:06:26.515 --> 00:06:31.795 Alison Wood Brooks: So now you're leaning into this idea of topic prep, which is, we've done research on topic prep, Matt. 00:06:31.795 --> 00:06:36.995 It comes in the form of thinking ahead just for even like thirty seconds about questions that you can ask. 00:06:37.270 --> 00:06:44.790 So if you're seeing somebody that you know, thinking for like ten seconds, okay, what were they doing between the last time that we talked and now? 00:06:45.000 --> 00:06:46.459 Were they taking guitar lessons? 00:06:46.459 --> 00:06:48.000 Was their dad sick? 00:06:48.180 --> 00:06:49.409 What's their kid up to? 00:06:49.570 --> 00:06:54.330 So that when you are together, it's right on the tip of your tongue to say like, oh, how's your dad doing these days? 00:06:54.330 --> 00:06:56.029 Or how are those guitar lessons going? 00:06:56.029 --> 00:06:57.799 Or, oh yeah, your kid was playing hockey. 00:06:57.809 --> 00:06:58.699 Did he make the team? 00:06:59.060 --> 00:07:02.040 So you're ready with those questions and they're right there for you. 00:07:02.250 --> 00:07:07.950 Matt Abrahams: I just did this with a friend of mine who last time I saw them, I knew that they were buying new running shoes. 00:07:07.970 --> 00:07:10.249 So the first thing I asked about is how's the running going? 00:07:10.250 --> 00:07:11.790 And it was a great way to get started. 00:07:11.960 --> 00:07:18.980 Alison Wood Brooks: It's an example of what we call long term listening, which means, you were actually listening to what they were saying last time you were together. 00:07:19.250 --> 00:07:27.530 Listening is very hard, you've now proven to them that not only did you hear them, and think about the fact that they were going to go and get these new running shoes. 00:07:27.690 --> 00:07:31.450 But you were smart enough and caring enough to remember to bring it up the next time. 00:07:31.829 --> 00:07:34.830 Matt Abrahams: I appreciate this notion of long time listening. 00:07:34.840 --> 00:07:36.500 I think that's a really interesting concept. 00:07:36.500 --> 00:07:45.315 I want to dig deeper into listening, but before we do, curious if you've had an interaction recently, Alison, where you feel particularly proud of how you started the conversation. 00:07:45.665 --> 00:07:46.685 Alison Wood Brooks: What a great question. 00:07:46.915 --> 00:07:57.150 It reminds me of a question that my friend recommended when I'm, you know, fifteen years ago at the beginning of my career, he often recommended asking, starting conversations with, what are you excited about lately? 00:07:57.450 --> 00:08:05.270 Everybody has an answer to that question and whatever their answer is, has this built in level of enthusiasm in it. 00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:08.230 Like whatever they say, it's going to be interesting to talk about. 00:08:08.480 --> 00:08:09.350 Matt Abrahams: I like that a lot. 00:08:09.409 --> 00:08:11.889 And before we end, I want to make sure I ask you that question. 00:08:11.989 --> 00:08:18.550 Speaking of questions, Kelly has written a question that I think is really important related to the listening question that you said, the long term listening question. 00:08:18.810 --> 00:08:23.620 What do you do if your memory is not that good and you can't remember things? 00:08:23.620 --> 00:08:25.640 I mean, as I get older, I struggle with this. 00:08:25.970 --> 00:08:31.460 Any suggestions for how to initiate conversation when you know there was something there, but you just can't remember it. 00:08:31.710 --> 00:08:32.909 Alison Wood Brooks: Kelly, you're not alone. 00:08:32.990 --> 00:08:34.419 We all struggle with memory. 00:08:34.580 --> 00:08:38.259 Human memory is remarkably flawed and filled with holes. 00:08:38.290 --> 00:08:45.839 And in fact, when we study people, we make them try and remember their conversations and almost no one can remember the details of a conversation they had. 00:08:46.109 --> 00:08:50.399 We're pretty good at remembering loosely what topics we covered, but details are quite hard. 00:08:50.409 --> 00:08:52.409 So you're not alone, uh, we're here with you. 00:08:52.749 --> 00:09:05.774 I'm also working with AARP, and the elderly, because this is one of the things that they think a lot about as our memory starts to fade as we get older, what can we do conversationally to stay engaged and remain good listeners? 00:09:05.785 --> 00:09:09.955 And how can we exercise this memory muscle in the context of conversation? 00:09:10.430 --> 00:09:16.700 Really easy hack, which we steal from all sort of sales people who use customer relation by the CRM model, right? 00:09:16.700 --> 00:09:18.040 Which is just write things down. 00:09:18.279 --> 00:09:27.719 If something struck you from a conversation and you're going to forget it, make a little voice note in your phone or put it in your calendar for the next time that you're going to see that person. 00:09:27.729 --> 00:09:37.830 Just make a note to yourself like, hey Kelly, self, remember, ask about their running shoes, or they said that they were thinking about maybe starting this book club and remember to ask, follow up about the book club. 00:09:38.314 --> 00:09:46.035 Follow up and memory are so important and we have to anticipate that our memories are flawed and to do that, it really helps to write things down. 00:09:46.645 --> 00:09:48.584 Matt Abrahams: Yeah, and I'll just double down on that. 00:09:48.604 --> 00:09:50.894 I am somebody who journals at the end of every day. 00:09:51.015 --> 00:09:55.405 It's a way of reflection on my communication and things that I'm thinking about. 00:09:55.729 --> 00:09:59.060 And if I have a really good conversation, I'll write down what made it so good. 00:09:59.069 --> 00:10:03.379 And then if I meet the person again, I can always go back and remind myself. 00:10:03.379 --> 00:10:08.560 So not only does it have the benefit of reflection, but it also helps you when you have to meet folks. 00:10:08.560 --> 00:10:10.689 So I find that very useful as well. 00:10:11.089 --> 00:10:13.609 A question came in from Ivy. 00:10:13.930 --> 00:10:16.670 Can you ask too many questions in conversation? 00:10:17.060 --> 00:10:25.709 Alison Wood Brooks: The short answer is yes, but the risk of asking too many questions is so much further out on the question asking spectrum than you think. 00:10:26.150 --> 00:10:32.375 So when we studied people on going on thousands of first dates, we never found the tipping point. 00:10:32.685 --> 00:10:39.485 Like no one asked enough questions, that the relationship with linear, there was no tipping point for asking too many questions. 00:10:39.895 --> 00:10:52.485 Now, when you look in a more conflictual environment like negotiations or sales, you sometimes do see a tipping point where a salesperson can ask too many questions or in an intense negotiation, a counterparty can ask too many questions. 00:10:52.910 --> 00:10:57.570 But that tipping point is way further out than you would think. 00:10:57.870 --> 00:11:00.470 So far out that it's actually hard to get there. 00:11:00.740 --> 00:11:05.510 It would be as if you're asking three questions per minute during the entire interaction. 00:11:05.750 --> 00:11:10.000 So, when our instincts are saying, oh gosh, I don't want to ask too many. 00:11:10.419 --> 00:11:13.080 It's better to think like, that's really hard. 00:11:13.525 --> 00:11:18.125 And what is much more common and a bigger risk is not asking enough. 00:11:18.585 --> 00:11:22.595 You never want to leave a conversation asking zero questions. 00:11:22.595 --> 00:11:25.015 We call these in my book, we call these ZQ. 00:11:25.065 --> 00:11:26.204 Don't be a ZQ. 00:11:26.565 --> 00:11:28.715 That's never good in any interaction. 00:11:29.055 --> 00:11:31.164 It means that you're not actually having dialogue. 00:11:31.685 --> 00:11:35.655 And the risk of asking too few questions is much higher than asking too many. 00:11:36.234 --> 00:11:38.354 Matt Abrahams: ZQ for zero questions, yes? 00:11:38.474 --> 00:11:38.814 Alison Wood Brooks: Right. 00:11:38.844 --> 00:11:39.064 Yeah. 00:11:39.064 --> 00:11:39.494 Matt Abrahams: Yes. 00:11:39.535 --> 00:11:48.165 I love that you study different environments and how conversation takes place in those different environments or interactions that have different purposes. 00:11:48.205 --> 00:11:54.259 A date is very different than a sales call, different from a negotiation, at least in many ways, they're different. 00:11:54.630 --> 00:12:00.480 In looking at the different contexts, can you extrapolate some key ideas or best practices? 00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:07.080 So if you're in a situation where you're trying to influence somebody versus if you're just trying to get along and get to know somebody. 00:12:07.320 --> 00:12:13.700 Are there differences in how we should approach this and the types of conversation starters we use or the ways we move up the pyramid? 00:12:14.069 --> 00:12:14.569 Alison Wood Brooks: Yeah. 00:12:14.939 --> 00:12:25.499 So in any conversation, whenever you're together with another person, your behavior should adjust, right, to fit the context and our goals shift constantly. 00:12:25.529 --> 00:12:28.389 They shift from one conversation to the next. 00:12:28.649 --> 00:12:31.049 They also shift from one topic to the next. 00:12:31.339 --> 00:12:38.595 So imagine that you are having a meeting at work and you know that for part of it, you're going to be negotiating for a higher salary. 00:12:39.015 --> 00:12:49.015 But probably for another part of it, you're going to be like asking about their kids, or asking about a project that they've been working on, or brainstorming about a new thing, a new collaboration. 00:12:49.435 --> 00:12:57.725 So I think, and this is what we get into in my book, we've a little bit made the mistake of thinking of conversations at the conversation level. 00:12:58.030 --> 00:13:01.110 And how things change from one conversation to the next. 00:13:01.150 --> 00:13:04.329 But it can help a lot to actually start thinking at the topic level. 00:13:04.500 --> 00:13:07.369 How do our goals change from one topic to the next? 00:13:07.610 --> 00:13:15.219 As soon as we're done negotiating about my salary, everybody's goals shift as we move to talk about this collaborative project we're going to work on. 00:13:15.540 --> 00:13:23.540 And so being a little bit more aware of how your own goals are shifting and how your partner's goals are shifting should influence how you behave. 00:13:23.844 --> 00:13:28.375 And in my course, we talk about this sort of two by two framework to figure out what your goals even are. 00:13:28.714 --> 00:13:37.915 One axis is relational, where we have some goals that are meant to help the relationship and the other person and some goals that are very selfish, which that's a very human thing to do. 00:13:37.915 --> 00:13:38.654 It's not bad. 00:13:39.264 --> 00:13:41.344 And then the other axis is information. 00:13:41.354 --> 00:13:44.185 So many of our goals are about exchanging information. 00:13:44.194 --> 00:13:46.175 That's sort of the point of communication. 00:13:46.405 --> 00:13:49.224 But many of our goals are not about information exchange at all. 00:13:49.254 --> 00:13:54.844 In fact, we want to keep a secret or we want to avoid talking about something, or we just want to fill time. 00:13:55.225 --> 00:14:02.735 And I think a lot of people forget that those low informational goals matter tremendously, especially enjoyment. 00:14:03.135 --> 00:14:06.514 Something has to be fun in order for the conversation to go well. 00:14:07.145 --> 00:14:10.445 Matt Abrahams: I really appreciate this discussion of thinking about your goals. 00:14:10.485 --> 00:14:14.615 As you know, Alison, I strongly believe that all communication needs to be goal driven. 00:14:14.625 --> 00:14:18.455 And thinking about your goal and thinking about how the goal changes makes a lot of sense. 00:14:18.565 --> 00:14:22.995 And thinking about the relational and informational components as well. 00:14:23.014 --> 00:14:26.234 And then there's a third component sometimes to think about, which is the action. 00:14:26.235 --> 00:14:27.435 What's the desired action? 00:14:27.435 --> 00:14:32.135 So it's information in motion and action that really help us guide our communication. 00:14:32.135 --> 00:14:43.024 And even in spontaneous situations, answering a question, making small talk, giving feedback, you can think about what your goal is and then tailor your communication to focus on that goal. 00:14:43.515 --> 00:14:48.865 Alison Wood Brooks: Can I ask you, Matt, when you are in small talk at the bottom of the topic pyramid in small talk world. 00:14:49.245 --> 00:14:50.305 Um, what are your goals? 00:14:50.605 --> 00:14:51.445 What are you thinking about? 00:14:52.015 --> 00:14:54.985 Matt Abrahams: I often want to just make the other person feel comfortable. 00:14:55.075 --> 00:14:56.905 I want to start from a place of comfort. 00:14:56.935 --> 00:14:58.715 I think that allows for connection. 00:14:58.725 --> 00:15:01.424 That's not to say that conversation can't be uncomfortable. 00:15:01.424 --> 00:15:05.334 In many cases I think there are benefits to people feeling a little pushed. 00:15:05.335 --> 00:15:15.234 But at the beginning, I just want to connect and feel comfortable, and that's why I'll often ask a question of somebody or make an observation to invite people to join me. 00:15:15.264 --> 00:15:19.244 I see small talk is really an invitation to engage. 00:15:19.645 --> 00:15:24.935 Alison Wood Brooks: Yeah, and even if you know that you're going to get to harder topics later, you have to connect first, right? 00:15:24.935 --> 00:15:29.234 Like you have to feel safe and comfortable together before you can go on to do hard things. 00:15:29.605 --> 00:15:32.645 You have to start from a place of comfort and safety and closeness. 00:15:33.470 --> 00:15:42.650 Matt Abrahams: And speaking of how that can be difficult, Tashone writes, are there different ways to initiate conversations and maintain them virtually versus when we're in person? 00:15:43.090 --> 00:15:44.839 Alison Wood Brooks: This is a very appropriate question. 00:15:44.840 --> 00:15:45.829 Thank you Tashone. 00:15:46.090 --> 00:15:52.770 I, right now, in my class that I teach called Talk, I'm having my students do what I call a communication audit. 00:15:53.110 --> 00:15:54.590 And I want you to think about this too. 00:15:55.040 --> 00:16:01.230 Think about twenty minutes in your life where you found one of those really busy manic communicative times. 00:16:01.250 --> 00:16:10.050 So you've got text messages coming in, you've got emails coming in, you may be on the phone with somebody, and also there's somebody trying to talk to you face to face. 00:16:10.694 --> 00:16:13.285 So this is quite common for people these days. 00:16:13.295 --> 00:16:16.824 We're constantly toggling between communicative modalities. 00:16:16.824 --> 00:16:18.585 You're getting DMs all the time. 00:16:18.885 --> 00:16:33.444 And so the question becomes, not only how do we do small talk better in digital modalities, but how do we toggle from looking down at a screen or looking at a computer screen and then turning our eyes and meeting the gaze of real human beings. 00:16:33.745 --> 00:16:38.025 So how are we doing these things quick in quick succession with many people? 00:16:38.405 --> 00:16:44.725 We're in a world where our attention is so fractured and so fragmented and so pulled in so many different directions. 00:16:45.145 --> 00:16:55.774 Do our brains actually have the capacity to do this really surprisingly tricky conversation task when so many different messages are coming our way from so many different places? 00:16:56.165 --> 00:17:04.324 The fundamental principles of small talk are always the same, or just like Matt was just saying, start with connection and treat it like a treasure hunt. 00:17:04.345 --> 00:17:09.345 You're looking for golden nuggets that can make things more interesting and more meaningful. 00:17:09.755 --> 00:17:19.235 But the trick is, how do we do this when we're in information poor environments where you can't use your body language as much, or maybe they can't even see you if you're on the phone. 00:17:19.555 --> 00:17:22.425 But those same basic principles of connection apply everywhere. 00:17:22.800 --> 00:17:26.389 Matt Abrahams: So there's some foundational principles and then you have to think about the modalities. 00:17:26.649 --> 00:17:33.870 I think actually that virtual tools can afford us some interesting ways of connecting and making small talk. 00:17:33.870 --> 00:17:41.949 So I think of a conversation I'm having, where in the midst of it, somebody gives me a thumbs up reaction or a party horn. 00:17:41.950 --> 00:17:44.000 That gives me some interesting information. 00:17:44.295 --> 00:17:51.655 One, about how we're connecting, but two, it gives me something that I can use to escalate the conversation or move to a different topic. 00:17:51.655 --> 00:17:55.135 So there's stuff going on there that we can actually leverage. 00:17:55.515 --> 00:18:07.875 I want to spend just a minute coming back to this notion of listening, because I know you have had some recent research about listening and not just active listening, but actually saying what you've heard. 00:18:07.885 --> 00:18:09.855 Can you share a bit more about listening? 00:18:09.865 --> 00:18:13.015 Because I know it plays a critical role in conversations. 00:18:13.500 --> 00:18:14.210 Alison Wood Brooks: It's so funny. 00:18:14.230 --> 00:18:17.250 My course is called Talk, my book is called Talk. 00:18:17.350 --> 00:18:20.840 And really at the core of all of it isn't about talking. 00:18:20.890 --> 00:18:21.840 It's about listening. 00:18:22.130 --> 00:18:22.510 Matt Abrahams: Right. 00:18:22.890 --> 00:18:27.960 Alison Wood Brooks: In our research on listening, what we found is that number one, it's incredibly hard. 00:18:28.020 --> 00:18:29.330 It is very effortful. 00:18:29.650 --> 00:18:37.500 And so if you put in the effort to actually listen to people, you should capitalize on that effort and show it to them. 00:18:37.810 --> 00:18:52.560 So there's decades and decades of research and work on this idea of active listening, which is mostly using nonverbal cues like nodding and smiling and leaning forward and making people feel like you're hearing them in that moment. 00:18:53.120 --> 00:18:54.220 This is great. 00:18:54.230 --> 00:18:58.160 So making people like you're listening to them is a great first step. 00:18:58.720 --> 00:18:59.530 Here's the tricky thing. 00:18:59.550 --> 00:19:01.139 Number one, it can be faked. 00:19:01.290 --> 00:19:06.199 Number two, there's a better way to convey you're listening and that is with your words. 00:19:06.554 --> 00:19:16.004 So even though listening happens while the other person is talking, you have this unique opportunity in conversation to immediately respond to it with your words. 00:19:16.334 --> 00:19:25.904 And so in research together with Hanne Collins, who's a professor at UCLA, what we found is speaking back to someone what you've heard is just incredibly powerful. 00:19:25.905 --> 00:19:29.375 When we think of people who are charismatic, often this is what they're doing. 00:19:29.765 --> 00:19:34.065 So they're asking follow up questions that follow up on what someone has just said. 00:19:34.335 --> 00:19:39.885 They're paraphrasing maybe something that a few different people have said and summarizing it in a nice way. 00:19:40.185 --> 00:19:48.374 They're using callbacks, which are when you reference back to anything that was said at the beginning of a conversation or even earlier in a relationship. 00:19:48.375 --> 00:19:54.785 So this was your example earlier, Matt, when you followed up with your friend about their running shoes and you said, hey, like how's running going? 00:19:55.045 --> 00:19:58.735 Not only is that a nice follow up question, it's a callback, it's a distant callback. 00:19:58.755 --> 00:20:07.454 And it's so magical because it shows that you were listening all those many days ago when they were sharing with you that they were going to get new running shoes. 00:20:07.514 --> 00:20:12.415 It makes them feel validated, like you heard them, like you care, and that you want to know more. 00:20:12.904 --> 00:20:22.235 And as we said at the beginning of this conversation, feeling connected and heard and understood is really like the core goal of all of this, is why we interact with each other. 00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:24.790 Matt Abrahams: So Alison, I'm going to do a call back here. 00:20:25.000 --> 00:20:26.760 What's something that you're excited about? 00:20:27.070 --> 00:20:30.169 Alison Wood Brooks: I am so excited about my new book. 00:20:30.189 --> 00:20:34.519 It's called Talk: The Science of Conversation and The Art of Being Ourselves. 00:20:34.854 --> 00:20:38.475 It is based on fifteen years worth of research on conversation. 00:20:38.675 --> 00:20:44.175 It follows the trajectory of the course that I developed at the Harvard Business School, also called Talk. 00:20:44.664 --> 00:20:47.584 So I'm just really excited to share this book with the world. 00:20:47.584 --> 00:20:51.334 It comes out January 21st and you can pre-order the book now. 00:20:51.334 --> 00:20:51.794 Matt Abrahams: Pre-order it now, right. 00:20:51.794 --> 00:20:55.205 And I am privileged to have received an early copy. 00:20:55.205 --> 00:21:03.730 And those who listen to me and have read the stuff I do, know that I like very practical, tactical stuff that can really immediately impact our communication. 00:21:03.730 --> 00:21:07.260 And Alison, your book does that well and it grounds it in science. 00:21:07.290 --> 00:21:13.080 And as everybody listening hears, uh, your tone and your approach, your energy for what you do comes out. 00:21:13.080 --> 00:21:15.870 So I am very excited for your book to launch. 00:21:15.899 --> 00:21:16.730 Thank you for that. 00:21:16.980 --> 00:21:17.730 Alison Wood Brooks: Absolutely. 00:21:17.990 --> 00:21:25.215 Now, I'm reading a comment from John who's saying we've got Think Fast Talk Smart, the book, we've got the podcast, when are we getting the musical? 00:21:25.354 --> 00:21:29.074 You are also excited about a new offering that's coming out of Think Fast Talk Smart. 00:21:29.235 --> 00:21:29.994 Matt Abrahams: Thank you, John. 00:21:29.995 --> 00:21:31.354 You never want to hear me sing. 00:21:31.354 --> 00:21:34.745 Alison is actually part of a band, and she does sing. 00:21:34.824 --> 00:21:37.615 Somebody, that you would benefit from hearing sing, not me. 00:21:37.795 --> 00:21:39.035 Yes, I am very excited. 00:21:39.125 --> 00:21:41.845 At Think Fast Talk Smart we're coming up on our fifth year. 00:21:41.845 --> 00:21:43.905 Our five year anniversary is in January. 00:21:44.105 --> 00:21:47.955 And in advance of that, we're actually launching a premium offering. 00:21:47.955 --> 00:22:04.615 So for those of you who find value in our cost free offering, we're going to actually add a premium offering that gives deeper dives into our content, gives access to more material, more content and more opportunities to build a community, please do consider the premium. 00:22:04.905 --> 00:22:13.255 And all of this is based on what Alison is all about, what I'm all about, which is ultimately helping people to hone and develop those communication skills. 00:22:13.465 --> 00:22:16.304 Because at the end of the day, communication is how we relate. 00:22:16.555 --> 00:22:18.505 It's how we connect and it's how we grow. 00:22:18.874 --> 00:22:20.314 Alison, any parting thoughts? 00:22:20.314 --> 00:22:25.625 I really appreciate you spending time with me in this live environment, and I certainly wish you well, any parting thoughts? 00:22:25.625 --> 00:22:28.520 Alison Wood Brooks: Just thank you so much, Matt, and everybody listening in. 00:22:28.530 --> 00:22:30.720 Get out there and don't be afraid of small talk. 00:22:30.750 --> 00:22:31.640 Lean into it. 00:22:31.650 --> 00:22:32.800 Find the golden nuggets. 00:22:32.840 --> 00:22:34.150 Ask lots of questions. 00:22:34.739 --> 00:22:37.790 Matt Abrahams: And with that, I simply say thank you to all of you for joining. 00:22:37.810 --> 00:22:39.890 Thank you for your support of Think Fast Talk Smart. 00:22:39.890 --> 00:22:43.959 Stay tuned for Alison's book and our premium offering, and we'll talk to you soon. 00:22:44.119 --> 00:22:44.600 Thank you. 00:22:45.799 --> 00:22:50.420 Thank you for listening to this LinkedIn Live Think Fast Talk Smart episode. 00:22:50.800 --> 00:22:55.290 This episode was produced by Shelby Merryweather and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:22:55.720 --> 00:23:06.120 The full Deep Thinks video version of this LinkedIn live is available at Think Fast Talk Smart Premium, which you can join at fastersmarter.io/premium. 00:23:06.504 --> 00:23:17.044 If you enjoyed this episode and want to learn more about small talk and conversation, please check out episode 73 with Alison Wood Brooks and episode 89 with Rachel Greenwald. 00:23:17.445 --> 00:23:21.624 Find more of our episodes on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. 00:23:21.925 --> 00:23:28.864 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter.