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Podcast-Intro: Welcome to
Testing, Testing 1-2-3, a podcast

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brought to you by TestGenius.

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Jenny Arnez: Welcome everybody.

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My name is Jenny Arnez.

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I'm your host for today's podcast.

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I have two gentlemen with me today.

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I have Mike Callen.

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He's our VP of products at TestGenius.

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I'm also part of the
TestGenius team and we have Dr.

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Chris Cunningham.

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He's the chief science
officer from Logi-Serve.

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Mike, you want to go ahead
and introduce yourself?

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Tell us a few things.

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Yeah.

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Mike Callen: Hi, thank you, Jenny.

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I'm, I'm Mike Callen, as you
said, and I'm the VP of products

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at, at TestGenius, which is a
product of Biddle Consulting Group.

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And TestGenius is a skill and ability
testing platform that handles a lot of

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different Positions and we have been
mostly engaged in doing concrete, hard

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skills testing over the years and through
an integration with Logi-Serve with

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whom for whom Chris Cunningham works.

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We now have the ability to add a
really substantial library of soft

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skills tests or behavioral tests.

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And so with that, we want to turn it
over to Chris to introduce himself.

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Chris Cunningham, PhD: Yeah, thanks guys.

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I appreciate that.

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Yeah.

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So I'm, I'm Chris Cunningham.

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I'm the Chief Science
Officer at Logi-Serve.

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And what that means is I use a background
in industrial and organizational

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psychology to guide the development
of our assessments and the ongoing

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validation and management of those
different testing libraries the way

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that they're applied with our clients.

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And as Mike alluded to we are
focused in more of a soft skill

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space with these assessments.

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We tend to focus on competencies,
which you can think of as

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complex individual differences.

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They're more than just traits,
but they're not states.

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So what that means is they're fairly
stable within individuals, but they

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can be developed with concerted effort,
focused effort, and these particular

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competencies that we target tend to
focus on behaviors associated with a

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person's underlying service orientation.

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And that's one of the reasons why this
partnership is potentially so powerful.

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Jenny Arnez: Wonderful.

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Mike Callen: Absolutely.

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Jenny Arnez: Chris, can you tell
us a little bit about Logi-Serve?

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Chris Cunningham, PhD:
Yeah, I'd be happy to.

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And so again, just for the visual
learners out there here's, here's a

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bit of a representation of some of the
things we've been up to as a company.

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We've been around for
a little over a decade.

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We are a provider of talent management and
assessment products that we have developed

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in house and are purpose built to help
organizations take a more competency

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focused approach to their screening
and hiring and developing of talent.

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As you can see on this particular
slide, we've developed a lot of big

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partnerships over the years, and we've
become really well recognized for

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adhering to best practices and making
sure that it's science first with a,

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with a heavy amount of attention on
utility and utilizability by end users.

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So the company actually came into
being after both my partner and CEO,

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Eric Krohner and I had spent a while
working as a value added reseller.

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We used to package and market
other vendors' assessments.

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And we recognize that there were some,
some gaps, some features missing and

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a lot of limitations on the usability
of any of these other platforms.

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And so about a decade or so ago,
we got together and thought, well,

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what if we were to re imagine this?

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How could we create an assessment
that was more engaging for

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candidates and also easier to use
for recruiters, hiring managers, etc?

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And that was really kind of
the origin of Logi-Serve.

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Mike Callen: It's very interesting.

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Hey, Chris, you, you
mentioned traits, not states.

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And I, and I really like that.

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That's an issue that I think a lot of us
who are not IO psychologists wonder about.

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You know, how, how do we know when
something is a trait that is mostly

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inherent, but can somehow be developed
versus some sort of aspect of behavior

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that's just happening in the moment
or inspired by the situation, but

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not necessarily something that's
a part of a person's personality?

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Chris Cunningham, PhD: Yeah, that's
a, that's a great question, and it is

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a, it is a difficult one to parse out
because, you know, that distinction

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between trait and state is, is very
popular amongst researchers and

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personality and individual differences,
but in practice, it can be quite

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difficult to know or see the difference.

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One way to look at it is that an
individual difference that's more of

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a state or a kind of context specific
difference is one that only shows up in

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reaction or response to specific stimuli
or specific set of contextual factors.

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And as a result, that characteristic
might disappear or show up in a completely

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different way if a different set of
stimuli or different context is provided.

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What you see then in an actual practice
setting is that that aspect of a

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person's behavior might not be real
consistent across different situations

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or contexts because it is a response or a
reaction to aspects of that environment.

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In contrast, a trait, something that's
a little more stable, is generally the

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type of individual difference that is
a little bit more universal, a little

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bit more consistent, generalizable.

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It's the kind of aspects of
a person that you tend to see

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regularly across different contexts.

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And so usually when we think
about who a person is, or like,

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what do they bring to a job?

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Especially we're really quite interested
in the aspects of their personality

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and their individual differences that
are more consistent because that's,

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that's more of a reflection of who that
person is and what they're capable of.

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Mike Callen: That's very interesting.

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I really appreciate you sharing that.

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It's not something we kind of had
on our bulleted list to discuss.

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But it's, it is definitely
pertinent in terms of, you

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know, the recruitment situation.

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It also occurred to me as you were
describing it, that is it is very,

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very much to me, at least a similarity
between the hard skills testing that

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we do and the behavioral or soft skills
testing that you folks are targeting.

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We, we would love to wrap our minds
around, you know, those things that

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are traits that, that we can depend
upon the results of our testing.

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And so it's really great that as you
sort of kick off this discussion that

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you're doing so in a way that lets
us know that you're targeting these

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performance dimensions or aspects of
personality that lead towards specific

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performance on the job that are
more, more concrete, less temporary.

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Chris Cunningham, PhD: So, yeah, yeah,
I would say that that's a, that's a

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good way of kind of summarizing it.

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And I would also just add, you know,
this, this idea of individual differences

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ranging from completely fluid or
situational specific to completely

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static and fixed there's, there's
quite a lot of variability in there.

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And so that's actually one of the
reasons why we got so interested in

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behaviorally oriented competencies in our
own assessment development, because we,

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we really wanted to help organizations
identify I guess the simple way to put

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it is individual differences that matter.

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So we were less interested in abstract
trait labels that are just maybe, you

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know, general descriptors of a person
and more interested in aspects that could

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be closely linked to a motivation or
a likelihood of engaging in a specific

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performance related behavior, and
especially when we target a domain like

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service or interacting with others on
a regular basis, there's an opportunity

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to think really concretely, as you said,
about what does good service look like?

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Like, what does it take to demonstrate
service on a day in and day out

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basis in a variety of roles?

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If we can fixate and focus on those
characteristics, what's what's

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really interesting is we can assess a
person's underlying sort of propensity

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or likelihood of engaging in that.

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We can also give hiring managers and
other talent leaders a chance to see

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sort of the bench strength of their
team and to understand, you know, where

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might we want to invest in a little
training and development to help shore

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up some of these different behavioral
tendencies and skills that are needed.

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So I think maybe an even simpler way
of thinking about how these two general

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products support each other is if
you've got this underlying propensity

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or competency, it really helps explain
that motivation, that intention,

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that attitude toward demonstrating
these these different behaviors.

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But to do that effectively, you
also might need skills to be able

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to demonstrate these underlying
competencies in a way that comes

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across as aligned with the specific
performance requirements in the job.

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So this is sort of like a one two punch
might be a simple way of thinking about.

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Mike Callen: Great.

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Yeah, that's, that's very, very
interesting and very helpful.

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Jenny Arnez: Yeah, I had a chance to
actually take a Logi-Serve test and

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actually, before I ask this question,
why don't you explain a little bit

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about what the Logi-Serve tests are?

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Chris Cunningham, PhD:
Yeah, no, absolutely.

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So in a Logi-Serve assessment, and I'll,
I'll I'll flip to a another graphic here

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so you can get a sense of how this looks.

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In a Logi-Serve assessment, we target
a number of competencies that we've

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identified through careful study
and review of the evidence base,

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the literature that's out there.

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In the domain of service, there's close
to 60 or 70 plus years of really well

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done research looking at what is it
that explains an individual's ability

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or propensity to serve others well.

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And we've consolidated that and
boiled that down to nine core

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behavioral competencies that you
see listed around the outside gear

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in this particular graphic here.

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These competencies include things like
communication, adaptive problem solving,

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interpersonal skills, motivation to
serve, self efficacy, so on and so forth.

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But what makes the assessment
unique over and above that focus

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on these generalizable competencies
is the way in which we assess them.

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So unlike maybe a more traditional form
of assessment where you might see, you

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know, a lot of items all in a, in a
set and you have to rate each one on

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a scale of maybe strongly disagree to
strongly agree or something like that.

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We have broken the assessment into
three different sort of activities,

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and the first one candidates are
asked to reflect on past experiences

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that they've had in life and in work
settings that would have allowed them

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to build competence, build proficiency
and mastery in these different domains.

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And then we ask them some questions about
different attributes of their personality

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that they tend to display or show on a
regular basis that are ways that these

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different competencies might surface or
manifest to others on a day to day basis.

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And then the third protocol or
component to the assessment is

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a series of situational judgment
or scenario type questions.

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And these are designed in a way that
partners the sort of written scenario, the

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text, with digital art that illustrates
and represents the actual work environment

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that a assessment is being used for.

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And with this particular last piece of
the assessment, individuals are now not

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just telling us like who they are and
what they've done, but they're actually

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showing what would you likely do.

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It's a way of getting into the
intentions and the actual capacity

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somebody has to make a proper behavioral
choice in the actual work setting.

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The way the assessment ends up wrapping
up is that the data gathered across

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all of these different prongs is then
incorporated, integrated together

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to generate scores that reflect a
pretty deep understanding of the

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relative strengths and weaknesses of
each candidate with respect to all

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nine of those targeted competencies.

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Mike Callen: That's it's very interesting.

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I think one of the things that I
noticed in taking the Logi-Serve

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assessment as well is that when you're,
you're dealing with the it's an,

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it's an avatar based product, right?

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You have sort of these illustrated
scenarios so that one can get

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an idea of what the situation
is that they're operating in.

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Oh, good.

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You've got some.

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Fantastic.

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So in this situational judgment phase
the test takers presented with a scenario

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and they're asked, you know, how would
you respond in this particular situation,

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which I think is pretty typical.

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One of the things that I really like
about your product, and I sort of suspect

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that this might be a big part of the
secret sauce is that there's a follow up

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that says how is the caller or customer
or, you know, the, the, the operative

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person that you're dealing with in the
particular scenario going to respond?

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Or how are they going to understand
your response or take your response.

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I'm not probably not using the
right word, but it seems, you know,

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one is directly what's the best
way to operate in this scenario.

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But then when you put this other aspect
of it, it seems to be really more

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of an empathetic type of situation.

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You have to respond the way that
you're supposed to respond, but how

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is it going to make that person feel?

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Am I right about that?

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Is that, is that a big
part of your secret sauce.

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Chris Cunningham, PhD: Well, you're
right in recollecting that that's

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a big component of these scenarios.

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And, you know, it's interesting because
all of these prongs that I just reviewed a

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minute ago, they're all so deeply entwined
that it's kind of difficult to tease

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apart what the real secret ingredient is.

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But I will tell you that it's
definitely a big component of it.

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The reason is, as you've described,
Mike, there's there's kind of like a

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two stage process to our scenarios.

224
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Okay.

225
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So with this type of scenario based
testing, it's really common to see

226
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items where you're presented with
a scenario and asked, what should

227
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you do or what's the best response
or what's the worst response?

228
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That's not the way we approach it.

229
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Instead, we ask, we give individuals
a scenario and then we give them four

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choices and that the behavioral choices
or the options have all been graded in

231
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terms of appropriateness that situation.

232
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So it's kind of the good,
bad and the ugly responses.

233
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And we look for the likelihood that each
candidate would respond to that situation

234
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in each of the ways that are outlined.

235
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So right off the bat with our item
sets, you're not just learning what

236
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somebody thinks the right answer is,
you're actually getting a more complete

237
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profile of what the person would
would likely do and would not likely.

238
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Okay, so that's that's stage one.

239
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We get a more complete picture of
what we would expect to see out of

240
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that candidate in that scenario.

241
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And then the second stage is let's
see if this person is able to think

242
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through consequence of their action.

243
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So here we get a chance to kind of
explore or peek under the hood of

244
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their decision making capabilities.

245
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And in a service provision context, that's
so critical because so much of providing

246
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good service is about maintaining a
relationship with the other individual.

247
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Even if it's very short term, there's
this development there of a connection.

248
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And if if an individual is not able
to kind of think through, okay,

249
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well, this is what I said I would
most likely do of those options.

250
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Now, what do I think the consequence or
the reaction of the customer is going to

251
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be or the patient or the client or the
guest is going to be on the other end that

252
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allows us to see a little bit further.

253
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So we refer to this as like
service forethought or the

254
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ability to sort of anticipate.

255
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Where does the story go from here?

256
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And so at times we've also referred
to our scenario portions as like a

257
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storyboarding activity, because in
essence, that's what it feels like to the

258
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candidate is there's a little snippet.

259
00:15:44,828 --> 00:15:44,878
Mhm.

260
00:15:45,318 --> 00:15:49,068
Of a story unfolding here, and they're
getting a chance to jump into that

261
00:15:49,068 --> 00:15:50,858
role for a minute, kind of explore it.

262
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And then they move into a different story
that targets a different competency.

263
00:15:54,288 --> 00:15:58,348
Mike Callen: Yeah, that that
is really very much based upon

264
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the response that they choose.

265
00:16:00,488 --> 00:16:02,658
However, they're reacting
to the situation.

266
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So it, it to me seems like it shows
a degree of competence, but then if

267
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you also are able to understand how
someone's going to respond, it, it

268
00:16:16,238 --> 00:16:20,398
probably tends to suggest that they're
going to be better at continuing

269
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that storyboard throughout time.

270
00:16:23,643 --> 00:16:25,833
Yeah, yeah, very, very, very cool.

271
00:16:26,143 --> 00:16:28,273
Chris Cunningham, PhD: And I'll also
note that this, this approach to

272
00:16:28,273 --> 00:16:32,333
testing, I got to remind everybody that
we designed the whole test also be the

273
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kind of an assessment that a candidate
would actually finish because one of the

274
00:16:35,973 --> 00:16:40,883
other problems that plagues assessments
right now is that many individuals will

275
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start, but not everybody will finish.

276
00:16:43,433 --> 00:16:47,833
With our assessments, we generally
see completion rates above 90 percent

277
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and some of our clients is 98%, which
is really high in this industry.

278
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And part of the reason it's so high is
that everything is structured in a way

279
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that it kind of grabs the attention
of the candidate, pulls them in, and

280
00:16:58,563 --> 00:16:59,983
they want to see what happens next.

281
00:17:00,163 --> 00:17:01,273
And before they know it, they're done.

282
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Because the whole assessment, I
mean, it only takes most people

283
00:17:04,153 --> 00:17:05,873
on average less than 20 minutes.

284
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Usually it's around 15 to 20 minutes,
and that's that's a really kind of

285
00:17:09,643 --> 00:17:14,083
focused assessment that yeah, it requires
more than two seconds, but you're also

286
00:17:14,083 --> 00:17:15,803
getting a lot of information out of it.

287
00:17:15,833 --> 00:17:19,243
And the candidates feel it like they
can see the relevance of the questions.

288
00:17:19,678 --> 00:17:20,748
It's not abstract.

289
00:17:20,768 --> 00:17:23,058
It's not way out there
in the ether somewhere.

290
00:17:23,058 --> 00:17:25,648
They can, they can understand why
you want to know this about them

291
00:17:25,648 --> 00:17:26,858
before you make a hiring decision.

292
00:17:27,478 --> 00:17:28,538
Mike Callen: Yeah, absolutely.

293
00:17:28,538 --> 00:17:34,208
And that, that face validity is so
satisfying for for, for, you know,

294
00:17:34,228 --> 00:17:40,478
job seekers versus, you know, the
traditional personality tests.

295
00:17:40,678 --> 00:17:44,468
I think the classic isn't it at the
combine they ask whether the players

296
00:17:44,708 --> 00:17:49,208
prefer hot dogs to hamburgers or some,
some, you know, silly things like that.

297
00:17:49,208 --> 00:17:51,998
Do you like to be in
crowded movie theaters?

298
00:17:51,998 --> 00:17:54,238
Or do you like to go to, you
know, parties where there's

299
00:17:54,238 --> 00:17:55,808
lots of people and loud music?

300
00:17:55,853 --> 00:17:58,023
You know, what does that
have to do with this world?

301
00:17:58,293 --> 00:18:02,903
And there might be some strong
corollaries to behavior, but it

302
00:18:02,903 --> 00:18:05,053
doesn't feel really satisfying.

303
00:18:05,053 --> 00:18:07,963
Whereas this feels incredibly satisfying.

304
00:18:07,973 --> 00:18:10,103
And I think that's such
an important aspect.

305
00:18:10,103 --> 00:18:12,503
Chris Cunningham, PhD: So, you know,
and you bring that up, Mike, and, and

306
00:18:12,503 --> 00:18:16,193
one of the ways we explain this to a lot
of our partners and clients in the past

307
00:18:16,193 --> 00:18:19,633
is, is using a graphic like this, and
we try to help people understand that

308
00:18:20,093 --> 00:18:23,143
when you talk about the, the validity
of assessment, what you're actually

309
00:18:23,143 --> 00:18:27,448
talking about is the ability of that
assessment to inform your ultimate

310
00:18:27,458 --> 00:18:29,368
decisions so that your decisions are good.

311
00:18:29,438 --> 00:18:32,228
So this is what's meant when
people say validity is a, is a,

312
00:18:32,228 --> 00:18:33,668
is a property of inference, right?

313
00:18:33,668 --> 00:18:35,568
It's not actually something
that's baked into the test.

314
00:18:35,568 --> 00:18:36,988
It's what happens after the test.

315
00:18:37,368 --> 00:18:41,168
Well, for that to work, you know,
not only do the candidates have to

316
00:18:41,188 --> 00:18:43,798
appreciate why they're being asked
what they're being asked, because

317
00:18:43,798 --> 00:18:47,438
then they're likely to respond more
honestly and truthfully and completely.

318
00:18:47,828 --> 00:18:51,028
But your hiring managers and recruiters
also have to believe that the test

319
00:18:51,028 --> 00:18:52,198
is measuring something relevant.

320
00:18:52,198 --> 00:18:53,358
Otherwise, they're not going to use it.

321
00:18:53,518 --> 00:18:56,728
You know, and then you also want to
make sure that the test is indeed

322
00:18:56,728 --> 00:18:57,888
measuring what you say it is.

323
00:18:57,888 --> 00:18:59,948
And that's where that cold
construct validation comes in.

324
00:18:59,948 --> 00:19:02,348
And that piece is completely
absent from a lot of the other

325
00:19:02,348 --> 00:19:03,448
assessments on the market.

326
00:19:03,918 --> 00:19:06,538
And then, of course, you need to
be able to show that scores on the

327
00:19:06,538 --> 00:19:10,738
assessment do predict or explain
variability in performance outcomes.

328
00:19:10,738 --> 00:19:12,198
And that's that criterion part.

329
00:19:12,488 --> 00:19:16,278
So what we've done over the years
is we've built a glass totally full

330
00:19:16,288 --> 00:19:17,948
approach here to this challenge.

331
00:19:18,298 --> 00:19:19,858
And we know that that's not.

332
00:19:20,088 --> 00:19:22,668
Necessarily required in all
contexts, and we also know

333
00:19:22,668 --> 00:19:24,118
it's not necessarily the norm.

334
00:19:24,573 --> 00:19:28,373
But again, one of our goals is to try
to help people appreciate the value and

335
00:19:28,373 --> 00:19:30,543
the importance of assessment science.

336
00:19:30,973 --> 00:19:34,053
And that's, that's really been one of
our guiding principles from day one.

337
00:19:35,323 --> 00:19:36,453
Mike Callen: It's very impressive.

338
00:19:36,923 --> 00:19:41,293
We have some experience in the past
with an office and interpersonal

339
00:19:41,313 --> 00:19:46,523
competence test that we created and
we decided to do, you know, very high

340
00:19:46,683 --> 00:19:51,863
fidelity video situational judgment
where we filmed the scenarios and such.

341
00:19:52,463 --> 00:19:59,398
And it was it's, it's been shocking
to realize what the shelf life is on

342
00:19:59,398 --> 00:20:03,948
something like that, you know, you can
spend an awful lot of money creating

343
00:20:03,948 --> 00:20:07,838
something like that only to find
that, you know, the hairstyles and the

344
00:20:07,838 --> 00:20:13,578
fashions change so quickly that it's
maybe the juice isn't necessarily worth

345
00:20:13,588 --> 00:20:16,018
the squeeze to go very high fidelity.

346
00:20:16,468 --> 00:20:20,298
And I think that I would admit to
you that I've tended to be a little

347
00:20:20,298 --> 00:20:27,308
snobbish about the avatar style testing
because to me it always seemed a little

348
00:20:27,308 --> 00:20:33,128
cartoonish in comparison to strict
video situational judgment but it's not.

349
00:20:33,308 --> 00:20:35,098
It's it's not that way at all.

350
00:20:35,448 --> 00:20:39,958
And moreover, I think that
it's abundantly more updatable.

351
00:20:39,998 --> 00:20:45,328
And in fact, you have instances
where you're able to as, as you can

352
00:20:45,328 --> 00:20:49,268
see, in some of these examples here,
you're actually able to customize

353
00:20:49,518 --> 00:20:53,798
certain elements within the scenario
for, you know, marquee clients.

354
00:20:53,798 --> 00:20:55,168
I'm sure that's an upgrade.

355
00:20:55,448 --> 00:20:55,873
But.

356
00:20:56,153 --> 00:21:00,733
But that's really some spectacular
examples of, you know, what,

357
00:21:00,733 --> 00:21:02,203
what it is that you can do here.

358
00:21:02,203 --> 00:21:04,023
So, yeah, thank you for toggling through,

359
00:21:04,163 --> 00:21:05,353
Chris Cunningham, PhD:
yeah, I just want to share.

360
00:21:06,223 --> 00:21:10,043
I mean, and one of the things I want
to share with you is we, we took years

361
00:21:10,053 --> 00:21:13,703
actually figuring out whether we were
going to go video, whether we were going

362
00:21:13,703 --> 00:21:16,663
to use digital art, whether we were not
going to do any illustration at all.

363
00:21:17,453 --> 00:21:20,153
And in addition to the cost
issue that you outlined, Mike,

364
00:21:20,193 --> 00:21:21,693
there's also a speed issue.

365
00:21:22,093 --> 00:21:25,013
You can't update video as fast
as you can update digital art.

366
00:21:25,043 --> 00:21:26,613
There's a major cost issue.

367
00:21:27,058 --> 00:21:28,568
There's also a delivery issue.

368
00:21:28,638 --> 00:21:33,458
So like this assessment platform is meant
to be optimized for mobile delivery,

369
00:21:34,058 --> 00:21:37,998
meaning over a mobile device, which, you
know, in some parts of the world, there's

370
00:21:38,138 --> 00:21:40,508
still not widespread broadband access.

371
00:21:40,718 --> 00:21:44,298
So delivering a video can really slow
things down and create a barrier.

372
00:21:44,978 --> 00:21:47,998
But with these images, you know,
they can pop up and they look

373
00:21:48,008 --> 00:21:50,208
consistently good on any kind of device.

374
00:21:50,518 --> 00:21:53,478
I'll even share one quick
kind of funny story with you.

375
00:21:53,478 --> 00:21:57,588
One of our very first clients, when
we configured the scenarios for them,

376
00:21:57,588 --> 00:21:59,608
they were a larger retail operation.

377
00:22:00,113 --> 00:22:01,033
We got everything set.

378
00:22:01,033 --> 00:22:01,703
They loved it.

379
00:22:01,753 --> 00:22:04,923
And then about a month later,
they did an org change.

380
00:22:04,963 --> 00:22:07,573
And one of the biggest things
that happened is the color of the

381
00:22:07,573 --> 00:22:09,313
uniforms changed from blue to red.

382
00:22:09,783 --> 00:22:12,243
And they're like, we can't have
blue shirts in these images.

383
00:22:12,243 --> 00:22:14,843
Like, Oh my gosh, I think we're
going to have to stop using the

384
00:22:14,843 --> 00:22:16,203
assessment, but we really love it.

385
00:22:16,203 --> 00:22:17,023
We're like, well, wait a minute.

386
00:22:17,023 --> 00:22:19,543
Like, you just need the shirts
to be a different color.

387
00:22:19,583 --> 00:22:20,873
And they're like, yeah,
that's, that's what we need.

388
00:22:20,873 --> 00:22:21,998
And we're like, Okay.

389
00:22:21,998 --> 00:22:22,908
Give us a half an hour.

390
00:22:22,998 --> 00:22:24,838
Like, and that was it was done.

391
00:22:25,098 --> 00:22:27,978
And so it's, it's not hard, you know?

392
00:22:27,988 --> 00:22:31,278
In fact, that's why we built it this
way was to be able to work with,

393
00:22:31,278 --> 00:22:32,858
create partnership with our clients.

394
00:22:33,478 --> 00:22:35,668
Mike Callen: Give us a half an hour
at a hundred thousand dollars and

395
00:22:35,668 --> 00:22:36,688
we'll take care of that for you.

396
00:22:40,628 --> 00:22:44,708
Jenny Arnez: I have to say, I think
this style, this, the, the art

397
00:22:44,738 --> 00:22:48,178
made it easier for me as a test
taker to enter into the story.

398
00:22:48,658 --> 00:22:49,218
I had.

399
00:22:50,198 --> 00:22:52,778
I hadn't taken a Logi-Serve test before.

400
00:22:52,778 --> 00:22:55,778
And so I'm, I'm in there and I
thought, Oh, this is kind of exciting.

401
00:22:55,778 --> 00:22:57,488
I was literally entering in.

402
00:22:57,498 --> 00:23:00,318
Now, if I was watching a video,
I would have felt like an

403
00:23:00,328 --> 00:23:02,118
outsider, just kind of observing.

404
00:23:03,358 --> 00:23:03,898
Definitely.

405
00:23:03,898 --> 00:23:06,598
It felt like I was becoming
part of some adventure.

406
00:23:06,598 --> 00:23:09,808
It was a, it was a remarkable,
positive experience.

407
00:23:09,808 --> 00:23:12,538
Chris Cunningham, PhD: That was actually
one of the inspirations for it was the old

408
00:23:12,568 --> 00:23:14,678
choose your own ending storybooks, right?

409
00:23:14,718 --> 00:23:18,368
Yeah, but the other thing we're doing
here and you know, it's again We're not

410
00:23:18,368 --> 00:23:21,238
trying to trick people but the other
thing you should know about this format

411
00:23:21,238 --> 00:23:27,898
is when we are conveying images like
this or like this or these we're able

412
00:23:27,898 --> 00:23:31,838
to actually not just tell people this
is the kind of environment you'd be

413
00:23:31,838 --> 00:23:35,338
in loosely we're able to render these
exactly like the work environment.

414
00:23:35,378 --> 00:23:40,233
So this particular illustration here this
comes exactly from a client call center.

415
00:23:40,353 --> 00:23:44,293
Like we, we took, this is a high
customization, obviously, but we got, we

416
00:23:44,293 --> 00:23:46,243
went in, we took photos, we rendered it.

417
00:23:46,493 --> 00:23:49,233
So the posters actually
reflect cultural cues.

418
00:23:49,233 --> 00:23:53,093
The technology on the desk is the actual
technology that the person's going to use.

419
00:23:53,433 --> 00:23:55,513
The color scheme is the color scheme.

420
00:23:55,523 --> 00:23:55,573
And so.

421
00:23:55,878 --> 00:24:00,198
And so what's happening is you're
also getting a chance to queue and

422
00:24:00,198 --> 00:24:05,528
send signals to the individual, which
helps improve the relevance of what

423
00:24:05,528 --> 00:24:07,388
they're about to say response wise.

424
00:24:07,558 --> 00:24:10,118
So it's good for the candidate, but
it's ultimately good for the client

425
00:24:10,178 --> 00:24:13,238
because you're getting a higher quality
piece of data coming out the other end.

426
00:24:14,298 --> 00:24:14,718
Jenny Arnez: That's fascinating.

427
00:24:15,788 --> 00:24:19,498
Mike Callen: The video situational
judgment tests that that we did you

428
00:24:19,498 --> 00:24:26,908
know, a big part of the scripted aspect
of it was getting the right camera

429
00:24:26,908 --> 00:24:33,468
angles on the operative person and being
able to express these nonverbal cues

430
00:24:33,518 --> 00:24:37,928
that you want to express, you know,
distaste, displeasure, anger, whatever.

431
00:24:38,578 --> 00:24:43,593
And so that was always something that
we perceived as a huge advantage.

432
00:24:43,593 --> 00:24:47,723
But it's interesting when you're
clicking through the examples that you

433
00:24:47,723 --> 00:24:53,043
have there of some of the different
characters and scenarios, it's very

434
00:24:53,043 --> 00:24:57,663
easy to see these nonverbal cues,
you know, to the same extent that you

435
00:24:57,673 --> 00:24:59,153
would be able to see them in video.

436
00:24:59,493 --> 00:25:03,843
And ironically, I, as I'm thinking
about them, I realized, you know, that

437
00:25:03,843 --> 00:25:09,363
we really, you know, paused on that
person, almost in the same way that that

438
00:25:09,363 --> 00:25:14,223
your static screens are in order to be
able to be sure that we were properly

439
00:25:14,223 --> 00:25:17,123
conveying that that feeling or sense.

440
00:25:17,153 --> 00:25:22,903
And, and so at any rate, again, that's
just, you know, my way of, of really,

441
00:25:22,983 --> 00:25:27,373
you know, complimenting the process
that you folks have invested so much

442
00:25:27,373 --> 00:25:29,513
into because it's very, very effective.

443
00:25:29,988 --> 00:25:30,958
Chris Cunningham, PhD:
Yeah, I appreciate that.

444
00:25:30,958 --> 00:25:32,228
And I know our team does too.

445
00:25:32,228 --> 00:25:34,888
And I will tell you on that last
comment you made, it's interesting.

446
00:25:34,888 --> 00:25:38,958
We really struggled with that for a while
until we realized, listen, you know,

447
00:25:39,438 --> 00:25:43,588
it might be neat to capture the nuance
of nonverbal expression in a video.

448
00:25:43,588 --> 00:25:47,128
But when that gets reduced to the
size of an image on a smartphone,

449
00:25:47,603 --> 00:25:48,493
you're not going to see it.

450
00:25:48,773 --> 00:25:52,503
And so digital art allows us to, and
you might notice like some of our

451
00:25:52,533 --> 00:25:55,823
graphics are, they seem a little like
exaggerated when they're blown up to full

452
00:25:55,823 --> 00:25:59,263
screen, but when they come down to the
level of a graphic on your smartphone,

453
00:25:59,663 --> 00:26:01,353
it looks natural, it looks normal.

454
00:26:01,353 --> 00:26:04,083
And that's, and that was part
of the control that we could get

455
00:26:04,103 --> 00:26:06,523
with this digital art approach.

456
00:26:06,673 --> 00:26:08,823
So yeah, a lot of thought went into it.

457
00:26:08,843 --> 00:26:11,963
I can't, I can't say enough for
our digital art team and their

458
00:26:11,963 --> 00:26:14,163
ability to capture the essence.

459
00:26:14,163 --> 00:26:18,203
Like we would draft items along
with descriptions of here's the

460
00:26:18,363 --> 00:26:19,903
emotions that need to be conveyed.

461
00:26:19,903 --> 00:26:23,863
This is how these emotions are
generally conveyed in a universal way.

462
00:26:23,863 --> 00:26:25,333
Let's capture this in the images.

463
00:26:25,513 --> 00:26:27,183
And we went from there.

464
00:26:27,660 --> 00:26:30,790
Sponsor Break: And we'll be right
back after a word from our sponsor.

465
00:26:32,590 --> 00:26:34,730
Ready to revolutionize your HR strategies?

466
00:26:35,120 --> 00:26:39,130
Head over to testgenius.com to discover
our latest tools and solutions designed

467
00:26:39,130 --> 00:26:40,680
to streamline your hiring processes.

468
00:26:41,900 --> 00:26:46,720
Jenny Arnez: Can you talk a little bit
about how an HR manager or director

469
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:53,730
might use These assessments in both
pre-hire and then also you've mentioned

470
00:26:53,730 --> 00:26:56,090
post-hire and employee development.

471
00:26:56,870 --> 00:26:57,220
Chris Cunningham, PhD: Sure.

472
00:26:58,310 --> 00:26:58,750
Yeah, sure.

473
00:26:58,750 --> 00:26:59,490
I'm happy to do that.

474
00:26:59,490 --> 00:27:00,340
So I'll start here.

475
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:05,350
You know, by focusing on competencies,
what we're doing is we're digging

476
00:27:05,350 --> 00:27:09,990
into sort of the foundational
attributes or aspects of a person

477
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:14,810
that enable them to actually
demonstrate competence on the job.

478
00:27:14,830 --> 00:27:18,110
So in other words, if I if I have these
underlying competencies that I'm more

479
00:27:18,110 --> 00:27:21,820
likely to actually do the right thing
behaviorally in the work environment

480
00:27:22,330 --> 00:27:26,430
and in the service context, the way
this might look in practice is something

481
00:27:26,430 --> 00:27:30,150
like what's represented on the screen
right now, where, if I've got employees

482
00:27:30,150 --> 00:27:33,400
that are competent under an underlying
way, and they're doing the right thing

483
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,420
behaviorally, then that positively
impacts the customer, the guest,

484
00:27:37,420 --> 00:27:39,020
the client, the patient experience.

485
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:40,530
And that's really good for business.

486
00:27:40,570 --> 00:27:40,900
Okay.

487
00:27:41,230 --> 00:27:43,540
And then the other thing is
when my employees are doing the

488
00:27:43,540 --> 00:27:46,680
right thing behaviorally, it
also improves the operational

489
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:48,390
efficiency of that organization.

490
00:27:48,410 --> 00:27:50,340
And that has an impact on the bottom line.

491
00:27:51,055 --> 00:27:55,905
So a simple value chain argument like
this helps to illustrate for many

492
00:27:55,915 --> 00:28:00,795
decision makers and stakeholders in an
organization why we want to understand the

493
00:28:00,795 --> 00:28:03,095
underlying competence of our workforce.

494
00:28:03,545 --> 00:28:07,255
From this, we can then expand that
conversation and say, well, listen,

495
00:28:07,255 --> 00:28:12,265
you know you can't probably just hire
top competency people because your,

496
00:28:12,475 --> 00:28:16,205
your labor pool, your, your applicant
flow probably isn't strong enough to

497
00:28:16,205 --> 00:28:18,175
allow you only to take top scores.

498
00:28:18,585 --> 00:28:21,725
So you're going to have more
variability within your team.

499
00:28:22,420 --> 00:28:25,350
Wouldn't it be neat if you could
figure out where they're stronger,

500
00:28:25,350 --> 00:28:29,170
where they're weaker, and then direct
some development initiatives at those

501
00:28:29,170 --> 00:28:32,630
individuals to see if we could strengthen
their overall level of confidence.

502
00:28:32,910 --> 00:28:37,110
And so for post hire applications, that's
often one of the ways this assessment is

503
00:28:37,110 --> 00:28:41,450
used, is we'll generate a report, you get
to see the profile of your individuals,

504
00:28:41,450 --> 00:28:45,830
but you can also aggregate and see group
level sort of summary statistics and

505
00:28:45,830 --> 00:28:49,590
breakdowns of scores, and then you can
work from there to develop training plans.

506
00:28:50,275 --> 00:28:55,465
Here's an example of some of the reporting
that comes out of a typical assessment.

507
00:28:56,125 --> 00:28:58,255
And you can see we've also put
a lot of time and effort into

508
00:28:58,255 --> 00:28:59,505
making this really simple.

509
00:28:59,515 --> 00:29:01,985
So this is not one of those
assessments where, you know, your

510
00:29:01,985 --> 00:29:05,865
users have to go through six months
of training and get certified before

511
00:29:05,865 --> 00:29:07,175
they can do anything with the test.

512
00:29:07,175 --> 00:29:11,095
Like we've actually done studies where
we've gone to HR conferences and we've set

513
00:29:11,095 --> 00:29:14,865
up a little computer lab and we brought
in HR managers and said, Hey, you know

514
00:29:14,975 --> 00:29:16,635
here's here's access to the platform.

515
00:29:16,665 --> 00:29:19,435
Now make a good decision and
justify how you made that

516
00:29:19,435 --> 00:29:21,135
decision in about five minutes.

517
00:29:21,175 --> 00:29:24,885
They can make a good decision because
people understand that gold is better

518
00:29:24,885 --> 00:29:26,325
than silver is better than bronze.

519
00:29:26,405 --> 00:29:26,765
Okay.

520
00:29:26,965 --> 00:29:30,695
But they also understand that from a
medalist perspective, even a gold medalist

521
00:29:30,695 --> 00:29:34,465
has to keep working to stay strong and
a silver medalist has room to grow, but

522
00:29:34,465 --> 00:29:36,065
they're still potentially really valuable.

523
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:40,150
And a bronze medalist also there might
be worth seriously looking at, especially

524
00:29:40,330 --> 00:29:43,230
if they've got some competencies
that are in a stronger territory.

525
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:47,630
So we use this type of reporting
methodology also to keep the focus from

526
00:29:47,630 --> 00:29:52,650
day one, not on screen in screen out that
kind of dichotomous decision, but we use

527
00:29:52,650 --> 00:29:57,405
this kind of reporting to always get our
talent managers thinking, okay, this is

528
00:29:57,405 --> 00:29:59,435
what I'm about to potentially employ.

529
00:29:59,915 --> 00:30:03,135
And I want to be able to work with
this individual from day one until

530
00:30:03,135 --> 00:30:06,165
the day they leave the company to
help them reach their full potential.

531
00:30:06,225 --> 00:30:06,685
Why?

532
00:30:06,735 --> 00:30:10,425
Because if I invest in my talent, they
create value for the organization.

533
00:30:11,075 --> 00:30:14,005
So that was always part of the plan,
you know, from the beginning and all

534
00:30:14,015 --> 00:30:17,425
the reporting is designed this way
to kind of facilitate that thinking.

535
00:30:17,925 --> 00:30:21,455
That's also why sometimes this
test is very popular to be used to

536
00:30:21,455 --> 00:30:25,125
identify potential for promotion
because you're looking for people

537
00:30:25,125 --> 00:30:28,715
that are showing maybe growth or
a potential area for achievement.

538
00:30:28,745 --> 00:30:33,795
And then you can put them on a track for
development or some rotational program.

539
00:30:33,855 --> 00:30:35,295
Sometimes it's helpful in that way too.

540
00:30:35,795 --> 00:30:38,745
Mike Callen: Yeah, I, this
is really important aspect.

541
00:30:38,745 --> 00:30:43,965
When we started talking with Eric many,
many years ago about working with you

542
00:30:43,965 --> 00:30:48,145
folks, you know, this is one of the
agreement points that we wanted to make

543
00:30:48,145 --> 00:30:53,885
sure that we shared, which is that when
we're looking at hard skills aspects,

544
00:30:53,885 --> 00:30:57,975
we're looking at skills, abilities,
personal characteristics that are

545
00:30:58,075 --> 00:31:00,625
required day one for success on the job.

546
00:31:00,845 --> 00:31:04,805
So it's very easy to have that
dichotomous situation that you described

547
00:31:05,385 --> 00:31:10,265
where you can clearly have the skills
and abilities necessary for success.

548
00:31:10,425 --> 00:31:11,905
Or maybe you clearly don't.

549
00:31:12,155 --> 00:31:17,435
And so it's really easy to make these
decisions when we're looking at these soft

550
00:31:17,435 --> 00:31:22,870
skills aspects, I love the bronze, silver,
silver because everybody's a winner.

551
00:31:23,130 --> 00:31:28,260
The question is, is what's the
attributes that you do possess at

552
00:31:28,260 --> 00:31:33,990
this point in time that will dovetail
nicely with your bevy of hard skills

553
00:31:33,990 --> 00:31:36,280
that you've already shown to possess.

554
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:42,690
So I really like the way that these,
you know, two really different aspects

555
00:31:42,700 --> 00:31:47,550
work together towards the same result,
which is recruiting people who are

556
00:31:47,570 --> 00:31:52,810
going to "A" - be successful in the
job and "B" -  hopefully continue to be

557
00:31:52,810 --> 00:31:54,870
successful there for many years to come.

558
00:31:55,490 --> 00:31:56,480
Chris Cunningham, PhD: Right, right.

559
00:31:56,530 --> 00:31:58,840
And I'll show you to like
in a more general sense.

560
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:04,025
This is how that scoring context
gets broken out in most reports.

561
00:32:04,025 --> 00:32:08,985
And so you'll see that our middle
range, our norm, if you match the

562
00:32:08,995 --> 00:32:12,345
benchmark, so to speak, for a given
assessment, then you're going to land

563
00:32:12,345 --> 00:32:13,905
squarely in the silver territory.

564
00:32:14,375 --> 00:32:18,285
But if you see a gold medalist or a
high silver person, somebody has a score

565
00:32:18,285 --> 00:32:23,405
above 500, that's likely a very strong
candidate with respect to that competency.

566
00:32:23,865 --> 00:32:28,235
And so the, the, the gist or the guidance
for a user is quite simple, like aim high.

567
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,150
Okay, but don't feel like you have to
wait for all of your applicants to test

568
00:32:32,150 --> 00:32:34,880
so you can rank order them at the end
of the process because we know that's

569
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:36,610
not feasible for most organizations.

570
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,610
So instead, you know, look for people that
land in that silver and gold territory

571
00:32:40,610 --> 00:32:42,140
and give them serious consideration.

572
00:32:42,460 --> 00:32:45,600
And if your applicant pool is not strong
enough, and all you end up with is a

573
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:49,780
lot of bronzes, but they might have some
strengths in the silver gold area take

574
00:32:49,780 --> 00:32:53,180
a close look at them and ask yourself,
are we prepared to work on building

575
00:32:53,455 --> 00:32:55,065
some of these bronze competencies?

576
00:32:55,105 --> 00:32:57,225
Because if we are, then it might
be a really great candidate.

577
00:32:58,085 --> 00:32:58,405
Mike Callen: Yeah.

578
00:32:58,405 --> 00:33:02,985
And again, especially if you have
other, if they possess other hard

579
00:33:02,985 --> 00:33:06,398
skills, at a very high level.

580
00:33:06,398 --> 00:33:11,317
And you know, there are certain tests
that help to measure the trainability

581
00:33:11,317 --> 00:33:15,517
aspect, you know, your comprehension
and those kinds of aspects.

582
00:33:15,517 --> 00:33:20,057
And so if you have somebody, you know,
who like in your example is a high

583
00:33:20,057 --> 00:33:24,677
bronze, has good skills and abilities
appears to be trainable, but would be

584
00:33:24,867 --> 00:33:29,507
a great addition to your team then it
makes it a lot easier to take a chance

585
00:33:29,577 --> 00:33:33,927
or, or maybe dip the ladle a little
bit lower into the different tiers

586
00:33:33,967 --> 00:33:36,257
that you have among your candidates.

587
00:33:36,777 --> 00:33:37,417
Chris Cunningham, PhD: Absolutely.

588
00:33:37,417 --> 00:33:37,897
Absolutely.

589
00:33:37,897 --> 00:33:40,927
And, and the one thing I just wanted
to add with this particular graphic,

590
00:33:40,927 --> 00:33:44,407
I'll just throw it up on screen here,
is you'll you'll notice and this

591
00:33:44,407 --> 00:33:45,827
actually comes from an actual client.

592
00:33:45,857 --> 00:33:50,697
And so this is a representation of
how an assess how this assessment

593
00:33:50,697 --> 00:33:53,777
can differentiate between strong
performers and everybody else.

594
00:33:54,167 --> 00:33:57,227
And you'll notice that it's not
always the case that all nine

595
00:33:57,227 --> 00:34:01,407
competencies are equally influential
in determining who a strong player is.

596
00:34:01,767 --> 00:34:04,747
So that's another piece that has to
be taken into account for any given

597
00:34:05,017 --> 00:34:08,987
client any given users Like maybe they
did have a bronze in this example here.

598
00:34:08,987 --> 00:34:12,287
Maybe they had a bronze in proactivity,
which is down the lower left corner.

599
00:34:12,637 --> 00:34:13,207
Well, you know what?

600
00:34:13,237 --> 00:34:15,347
That was not a strong
differentiation point.

601
00:34:15,357 --> 00:34:16,837
So I wouldn't lose sleep over that.

602
00:34:17,237 --> 00:34:20,647
On the other hand, if, if we have an
individual with a bronze and motivation

603
00:34:20,647 --> 00:34:23,617
and interest, which is just to the
right of proactivity, you notice

604
00:34:23,617 --> 00:34:27,307
the gap between the top performers
and everybody else is massive there.

605
00:34:27,537 --> 00:34:29,157
I would be really worried at that point.

606
00:34:29,187 --> 00:34:32,207
If, if they were bronze medalists,
I only want silver and gold when it

607
00:34:32,207 --> 00:34:33,547
comes to motivation and interest.

608
00:34:33,557 --> 00:34:38,742
So my point is people using the assessment
have a pretty good understanding in

609
00:34:38,742 --> 00:34:41,992
their organization of what what is
critical, what is not so critical.

610
00:34:42,332 --> 00:34:46,362
And the beauty of this assessment is
it gives you that ability to make that

611
00:34:46,362 --> 00:34:49,752
more nuanced decision because it isn't
pass fail like you're saying, like, but

612
00:34:49,752 --> 00:34:52,112
it does give you guide rails, right?

613
00:34:52,112 --> 00:34:54,992
And it makes it pretty easier,
easy for you to kind of figure out.

614
00:34:55,172 --> 00:34:57,332
Okay, what is the balance trade off risk?

615
00:34:57,372 --> 00:34:58,772
We're willing to take with this candidate.

616
00:35:00,242 --> 00:35:05,627
Jenny Arnez: So are you recommending
that HR people, managers, they look at

617
00:35:05,627 --> 00:35:09,767
these nine competencies and they, they
rank them as to what's most important

618
00:35:09,767 --> 00:35:11,417
to them and for a given position?

619
00:35:11,757 --> 00:35:14,517
Chris Cunningham, PhD: So, sometimes
that's helpful approach but I'll

620
00:35:14,517 --> 00:35:16,207
show you again in the main report.

621
00:35:16,317 --> 00:35:19,397
The, the number that most
people use is the overall.

622
00:35:19,792 --> 00:35:21,162
That's the one that's at
the top of the report.

623
00:35:21,172 --> 00:35:23,322
And what that is, is an
aggregation of all nine.

624
00:35:23,952 --> 00:35:27,732
And the, it's, it's beyond our
scope today to talk about exactly

625
00:35:27,732 --> 00:35:28,852
how these scores are generated.

626
00:35:28,852 --> 00:35:32,922
But I will say to you that these
scores are, there are individual

627
00:35:32,922 --> 00:35:34,372
scores for every competency.

628
00:35:34,817 --> 00:35:39,247
And there are composites that combine
them in certain weighted fashions,

629
00:35:39,247 --> 00:35:40,967
and then there's an overall composite.

630
00:35:41,297 --> 00:35:44,877
And by and large, most of our users
first look at the overall score to

631
00:35:44,877 --> 00:35:48,317
do some initial filtering, and then
they go down to the nuanced breakout.

632
00:35:48,327 --> 00:35:51,937
And you can even see in this mock up
here on the screen, this particular

633
00:35:51,937 --> 00:35:53,447
candidate is not a strong player.

634
00:35:53,637 --> 00:35:56,971
But they happen to be okay, a
little okay with proactivity.

635
00:35:57,212 --> 00:36:01,362
So I could look at this and say, well, you
know, I, I would consider this a higher

636
00:36:01,362 --> 00:36:05,342
risk person, but if they, if they have
productivity, then that's a really great

637
00:36:05,342 --> 00:36:08,382
attribute, especially if I'm willing and
able to invest a little bit in helping

638
00:36:08,382 --> 00:36:10,452
them see gaps that they need to address.

639
00:36:10,722 --> 00:36:13,222
And so I don't know that I
personally would take a risk on

640
00:36:13,222 --> 00:36:16,112
this particular candidate, but if I
got into a bad situation, I might.

641
00:36:16,737 --> 00:36:21,467
Mike Callen: Yeah, you, it gives
you the awareness of the risk.

642
00:36:22,137 --> 00:36:26,697
So if you're in a situation where,
you know, you've it's a little crude,

643
00:36:26,697 --> 00:36:29,957
but a lot of the people that we work
with talk about butts in the seats.

644
00:36:29,957 --> 00:36:31,397
You got to get butts in the seats.

645
00:36:31,427 --> 00:36:37,782
And you know, sometimes you need to
have a human being in there and it

646
00:36:37,782 --> 00:36:41,902
may not be your first or second or
third choice, but you've got to get

647
00:36:41,912 --> 00:36:43,502
somebody in there doing the work.

648
00:36:43,532 --> 00:36:48,612
And so you have a good idea of what
type of efforts going to be necessary

649
00:36:48,612 --> 00:36:50,662
in order to, to bring them along.

650
00:36:51,252 --> 00:36:55,262
You know, to that end, Jenny
asked you about post hire.

651
00:36:55,882 --> 00:37:03,882
And I know that for a lot of  positions
there are preceptor or trainee.

652
00:37:04,282 --> 00:37:09,792
Or sorry, trainer to trainee
relationships, and there you go.

653
00:37:09,792 --> 00:37:11,482
That's one of your aspects here.

654
00:37:11,852 --> 00:37:20,032
Do you find, or do you recommend that
having the preceptor or trainer go through

655
00:37:20,327 --> 00:37:25,837
take the test and then trying to, you
know, match behavioral types between

656
00:37:25,837 --> 00:37:32,097
those would make the training slash
onboarding process more successful because

657
00:37:32,097 --> 00:37:34,767
you're matching like people together?

658
00:37:34,767 --> 00:37:37,717
Or is there any research
that you've done on that?

659
00:37:38,667 --> 00:37:41,797
Chris Cunningham, PhD: I am following
what you're outlining, and I think

660
00:37:41,797 --> 00:37:46,312
there probably is some evidence that
that approach might help, especially

661
00:37:46,312 --> 00:37:50,162
if the, the training and development
model is, is kind of a mentoring

662
00:37:50,162 --> 00:37:53,832
forum where you're trying to match
people with you know, with, with

663
00:37:53,832 --> 00:37:55,122
that sort of mindset and approach.

664
00:37:55,342 --> 00:37:58,712
I can't tell you that we've done
research on that particular model

665
00:37:58,722 --> 00:38:00,942
yet, because most of our clients.

666
00:38:01,222 --> 00:38:04,002
Have wanted to use this to
help make better decisions

667
00:38:04,002 --> 00:38:05,832
about new talent or talent.

668
00:38:05,882 --> 00:38:06,672
They want to develop.

669
00:38:07,112 --> 00:38:10,162
There's some that have started using
the assessment to guide promotion

670
00:38:10,162 --> 00:38:14,382
decisions, but we haven't seen
a ton of interest in using it to

671
00:38:14,382 --> 00:38:16,807
pair partner employees together.

672
00:38:16,817 --> 00:38:19,437
So I think it's, I think it's a
great illustration of another way

673
00:38:19,437 --> 00:38:22,667
in which this competency approach is
so flexible and is really designed

674
00:38:22,677 --> 00:38:24,197
to support good talent management.

675
00:38:24,197 --> 00:38:27,487
It's not simply a pre hire
selection tool like that.

676
00:38:27,487 --> 00:38:30,187
That's one point I think we just
need to emphasize is that there's

677
00:38:30,377 --> 00:38:33,467
a lot of opportunity here to
use this both pre and post hire.

678
00:38:33,877 --> 00:38:35,347
And that was by design.

679
00:38:35,357 --> 00:38:38,507
So we'd really love to see clients
use it for all of its richness.

680
00:38:39,547 --> 00:38:40,017
Mike Callen: Excellent.

681
00:38:40,457 --> 00:38:43,797
Well, you know, if that comes up down
the road, then you know, maybe that'll

682
00:38:44,277 --> 00:38:47,617
be a great opportunity to have you back
and talk a little bit more about that.

683
00:38:47,927 --> 00:38:52,497
I know that, like in nursing, for
instance, that preceptor trainee

684
00:38:52,857 --> 00:38:54,937
relationship is super important.

685
00:38:54,977 --> 00:39:00,267
And so you know, because people do
learn differently, there could be

686
00:39:00,277 --> 00:39:04,927
a benefit and, you know, sort of
matching them up style to style.

687
00:39:04,957 --> 00:39:08,047
But at any rate, it was just something
that was that I was curious about.

688
00:39:08,397 --> 00:39:12,027
Jenny, do you have anything
that you wanted to bring up now?

689
00:39:12,037 --> 00:39:14,687
Jenny Arnez: I I just a
general, just a comment.

690
00:39:14,757 --> 00:39:19,097
Taking the assessment, the whole
approach was the most positive

691
00:39:19,267 --> 00:39:21,307
assessment I've ever taken.

692
00:39:21,937 --> 00:39:27,947
It typically, you know, when you go to
take a test or an assessment in, say,

693
00:39:27,947 --> 00:39:29,757
Excel, it's a little nerve wracking.

694
00:39:29,757 --> 00:39:32,847
You can, you can get a little bit
stressed, but I didn't feel that in this.

695
00:39:32,847 --> 00:39:37,487
And so kudos to to you all for
developing something like this.

696
00:39:37,497 --> 00:39:38,717
It's amazing.

697
00:39:39,377 --> 00:39:40,437
Chris Cunningham, PhD: I appreciate that.

698
00:39:40,437 --> 00:39:44,797
And I don't have a graphic to add here,
but I, I will share with you because

699
00:39:44,797 --> 00:39:49,247
we've actually done some direct testing
of candidate experience and reactions and

700
00:39:49,767 --> 00:39:54,457
a lot of times what we hear is that more
than 90 percent of our applicants describe

701
00:39:54,457 --> 00:39:59,467
the assessment as fun, and 90 percent or
more actually describe it as easy, and

702
00:39:59,487 --> 00:40:03,397
people have tried to tell me at times that
an assessment shouldn't be easy and then

703
00:40:03,397 --> 00:40:04,917
I say to them, how's that working for you?

704
00:40:04,967 --> 00:40:08,787
Because the thing is, like, if
our goal is to trip and trick and,

705
00:40:08,817 --> 00:40:10,447
you know, make people feel stupid.

706
00:40:10,487 --> 00:40:12,167
Then as an industry,
we've done pretty great.

707
00:40:12,487 --> 00:40:15,847
But if our goal is to learn about
people and make better decisions so

708
00:40:15,847 --> 00:40:20,457
that fit is ultimately accurate, then
we need an assessment that people

709
00:40:20,457 --> 00:40:23,197
are going to be willing to take and
actually give their best selves too.

710
00:40:23,197 --> 00:40:25,707
So, so I think that that's
really really helpful.

711
00:40:25,707 --> 00:40:29,177
The other interesting metric I would just
share with you all is we've also tracked

712
00:40:29,177 --> 00:40:33,587
sort of a net promoter effect with this
assessment and in some of the engagements

713
00:40:33,587 --> 00:40:35,687
we've had with clients, we've asked
people, "Hey, you know, now that you've

714
00:40:35,687 --> 00:40:39,657
had this assessment experience how likely
would you be to recommend a friend of

715
00:40:39,657 --> 00:40:41,977
yours to apply for a job here as well?"

716
00:40:42,207 --> 00:40:46,497
And again, more than 90 percent of users
would recommend that company because

717
00:40:46,497 --> 00:40:48,517
of their assessment related experience.

718
00:40:48,517 --> 00:40:51,937
And I don't think we spent enough time
talking about that in this industry

719
00:40:51,937 --> 00:40:55,717
because you gotta understand like if
we create a front end experience that's

720
00:40:55,717 --> 00:41:00,837
abysmal we're also damaging our ability
to recruit talent because thanks to

721
00:41:00,837 --> 00:41:02,067
the power of the internet, right?

722
00:41:02,067 --> 00:41:04,917
Like if one person has a bad experience,
the rest of the world knows about it.

723
00:41:05,277 --> 00:41:09,047
So having a good front end experience like
this, having a good internal experience

724
00:41:09,047 --> 00:41:12,197
like this, I think it really matters
now more than it probably ever had.

725
00:41:13,057 --> 00:41:18,917
Mike Callen: We do at least 50 percent
of our business in the 911 emergency

726
00:41:18,917 --> 00:41:21,467
services, police, fire dispatch space.

727
00:41:21,467 --> 00:41:23,137
It's a huge market for us.

728
00:41:23,587 --> 00:41:30,117
And in this post COVID world it's
been uncanny how every conference

729
00:41:30,117 --> 00:41:37,017
that we go to, there are big sessions
that are led by roundtable groups

730
00:41:37,017 --> 00:41:42,947
of people who are talking about
how do we bring more people in?

731
00:41:42,957 --> 00:41:47,597
How can we improve our situation
so that we get, you know, a little

732
00:41:47,597 --> 00:41:51,767
bit of momentum going in our,
communities, you know, towards, you

733
00:41:51,767 --> 00:41:53,817
know, bringing more people into here?

734
00:41:53,817 --> 00:41:57,377
It's, it's become a more and
more challenging situation.

735
00:41:57,837 --> 00:42:03,247
And you know, I, I do tend to kind of
come, you know, from the side where at

736
00:42:03,247 --> 00:42:08,197
least on the hard skills we've got to be
able to ask them some tough questions.

737
00:42:08,587 --> 00:42:13,357
And, and to a certain extent, you know,
if you can't like to, to use Jenny's

738
00:42:13,357 --> 00:42:18,267
example, if you can't work Excel to a
very high degree and the job requires

739
00:42:18,267 --> 00:42:23,637
you to work Excel to a very high degree,
then, you know, you shouldn't feel

740
00:42:23,637 --> 00:42:27,677
as though you, you passed the test
with flying colors if you failed it.

741
00:42:27,997 --> 00:42:32,837
But when you're dealing in the, this
behavioral soft skills realm, you know,

742
00:42:32,837 --> 00:42:34,547
that's really kind of an opportunity.

743
00:42:34,547 --> 00:42:38,497
People are what they are, you know, to
a great extent at this point in time.

744
00:42:38,497 --> 00:42:43,267
And so to have an opportunity to really
sort of feature yourself and, and do

745
00:42:43,267 --> 00:42:49,112
so in a way that that is affirming and
positive is, is really is really great.

746
00:42:49,122 --> 00:42:55,512
And, and actually what it sort of leads
me to think might be a good best practice

747
00:42:55,742 --> 00:43:00,282
when we're putting tests together within
within our platform, including your

748
00:43:00,282 --> 00:43:05,492
tests, you know, that we may want to, to
recommend to people that they go through

749
00:43:05,492 --> 00:43:09,622
and they put the hard skills tests first
and let people finish with something

750
00:43:09,622 --> 00:43:13,372
that's a little more fun and is going
to leave them with maybe a little bit

751
00:43:13,462 --> 00:43:16,162
better memory of the testing process.

752
00:43:16,172 --> 00:43:18,262
Chris Cunningham, PhD: So yeah,
yeah, that's something that would be

753
00:43:18,262 --> 00:43:21,732
interesting to explore because you know,
the other the other approach is to warm

754
00:43:21,732 --> 00:43:23,202
them up with something easy, right?

755
00:43:23,202 --> 00:43:25,792
And they get them excited
about well, okay, they've

756
00:43:25,792 --> 00:43:27,212
asked me good questions so far.

757
00:43:27,212 --> 00:43:28,652
So let's let's go a little further.

758
00:43:28,652 --> 00:43:31,632
But, you know, what I think is
important here to to point out

759
00:43:31,632 --> 00:43:35,152
is, you know, worrying about the
look, the feel, the experience, the

760
00:43:35,152 --> 00:43:40,432
assessment, this is not like meaningless
conversation for an academic audience.

761
00:43:40,432 --> 00:43:44,002
Like, we got to also remember that
unfortunately, assessments have also

762
00:43:44,002 --> 00:43:47,612
had a pretty bad history of maybe
discriminating against certain groups

763
00:43:47,612 --> 00:43:50,452
and not really leveling the playing
field as much as they're supposed to.

764
00:43:50,812 --> 00:43:53,582
And that's something else that
we've spent a lot of time working

765
00:43:53,582 --> 00:43:57,177
with in the development of our
tool especially is making sure that

766
00:43:57,177 --> 00:43:58,577
it does level the playing field.

767
00:43:58,637 --> 00:44:03,277
And we've actually seen some really strong
evidence of this in a number of studies.

768
00:44:03,327 --> 00:44:08,337
And what I mean by that is that this test
does not show preference to any group.

769
00:44:08,447 --> 00:44:12,047
So if you're a member of a minority or
protected group, you have just as much

770
00:44:12,047 --> 00:44:16,407
chance of scoring well on this as somebody
who's a member of a majority group.

771
00:44:17,047 --> 00:44:21,287
It's not a cognitive test, first of all,
okay, and it's focused on competencies

772
00:44:21,327 --> 00:44:24,907
that you could have developed in a variety
of different life domains and experiences.

773
00:44:25,537 --> 00:44:31,037
Why I'm emphasizing this is that we really
do, as an industry, need to do more to

774
00:44:31,037 --> 00:44:35,547
think about how we package together these
screening experiences and really just

775
00:44:35,547 --> 00:44:39,907
keep asking ourselves, like, are we asking
questions that that get at attributes

776
00:44:40,247 --> 00:44:44,117
that need to be present day one, week
one, or are we focusing on things

777
00:44:44,127 --> 00:44:45,747
that we can actually build over time?

778
00:44:45,747 --> 00:44:48,637
And I know this is a, is a hard challenge,
especially when you're working with

779
00:44:48,637 --> 00:44:51,897
skills testing, but I know you guys
have done a lot to tease that apart

780
00:44:51,897 --> 00:44:54,897
with your clients and make sure they
understand that when they're putting

781
00:44:54,897 --> 00:44:56,277
these assessments in place as well.

782
00:44:56,957 --> 00:44:57,617
Mike Callen: Definitely.

783
00:44:58,327 --> 00:45:03,877
We have we haven't talked much about
the structure of your assessments in

784
00:45:03,877 --> 00:45:10,647
terms of the library itself, but you
have a sort of a service focus, and then

785
00:45:10,647 --> 00:45:16,787
there's a sales focus, and then there's
a managerial leadership potential focus.

786
00:45:17,257 --> 00:45:22,457
And then you have many different
industries or verticals that

787
00:45:22,457 --> 00:45:26,407
are represented with each
of those particular areas.

788
00:45:26,417 --> 00:45:33,667
And then you can drill down further
and you can choose specific job titles

789
00:45:33,937 --> 00:45:38,857
that are very standard across the
country, or maybe even around the world.

790
00:45:39,247 --> 00:45:46,347
All told I think that we have about
shoot 220 or so of the Logi-Serve

791
00:45:46,547 --> 00:45:51,217
tests available in our library
to our clients who have that

792
00:45:51,577 --> 00:45:54,297
particular add on service activated.

793
00:45:54,747 --> 00:46:00,447
So the, the new almost every new
client that comes on board since

794
00:46:00,447 --> 00:46:04,817
the integration has been done will
be getting this particular service.

795
00:46:04,817 --> 00:46:10,287
And then those clients who signed on
prior to it have the opportunity to

796
00:46:10,297 --> 00:46:12,737
upgrade their subscription to include it.

797
00:46:12,757 --> 00:46:17,077
But it's a very, very robust
library that you've you've made

798
00:46:17,077 --> 00:46:19,227
available and very impressive.

799
00:46:19,497 --> 00:46:24,237
Did I leave out any of the
details about the library or

800
00:46:24,237 --> 00:46:25,497
anything that you'd like to add?

801
00:46:26,217 --> 00:46:29,427
Chris Cunningham, PhD: No, I think
that's a good summary of an explanation

802
00:46:29,427 --> 00:46:31,767
of the value add that this brings.

803
00:46:31,817 --> 00:46:36,377
And you all already have a wonderful
product that can really help

804
00:46:36,407 --> 00:46:38,077
companies make better decisions.

805
00:46:38,077 --> 00:46:41,487
And we're really happy and excited to
become a partner that can help you take

806
00:46:41,487 --> 00:46:43,357
it to another level with your clients.

807
00:46:43,917 --> 00:46:47,157
We've we've seen a lot of success
using this product as a standalone.

808
00:46:47,167 --> 00:46:50,397
So we know that when it's partnered
with another well designed product,

809
00:46:50,487 --> 00:46:52,027
the impact will be even greater.

810
00:46:52,417 --> 00:46:55,567
And we're just excited to kind of
see some of these impacts happen.

811
00:46:56,287 --> 00:46:56,797
Mike Callen: Excellent.

812
00:46:57,157 --> 00:46:58,357
As are we for sure.

813
00:46:58,777 --> 00:47:00,147
One of the things, areas that

814
00:47:00,147 --> 00:47:03,187
I reflect upon is the,
the leadership side of it.

815
00:47:03,537 --> 00:47:06,037
And I don't know if you have any
particular insights on this, but

816
00:47:06,087 --> 00:47:11,147
having grown up in, in sales very
often organizations will, you

817
00:47:11,147 --> 00:47:14,597
know, promote their best performing
salespeople to sales managers.

818
00:47:14,957 --> 00:47:18,157
And sometimes that can have
good results and sometimes

819
00:47:18,157 --> 00:47:20,087
it can kind of be disastrous.

820
00:47:20,377 --> 00:47:25,162
Sometimes the best salespeople
aren't the best sales leaders.

821
00:47:25,162 --> 00:47:28,832
And sometimes the best sales leaders
aren't the best sales people either.

822
00:47:29,142 --> 00:47:35,682
So being able to add something to
the conversation that gives you some

823
00:47:35,702 --> 00:47:40,282
insight and, and intelligence into,
you know, deciding who it is that

824
00:47:40,282 --> 00:47:44,542
you promote into these situations
can be, can be very, very helpful.

825
00:47:44,902 --> 00:47:49,887
And some of the smaller organizations
of which you know, most of the

826
00:47:49,887 --> 00:47:54,997
businesses in America are you know,
making the wrong decision in this

827
00:47:54,997 --> 00:47:58,577
regard, you know, especially for
instance, promoting a really good

828
00:47:58,577 --> 00:48:04,387
sales person to sales management and
having them fail can be disastrous

829
00:48:04,407 --> 00:48:06,717
to, to that particular organization.

830
00:48:06,827 --> 00:48:08,187
Chris Cunningham, PhD:
Yeah, yeah, that's so true.

831
00:48:08,187 --> 00:48:11,827
And, you know, to add a couple of
layers on this, I mean when you take

832
00:48:11,827 --> 00:48:15,077
a very strong individual contributor
like the examples you've been giving

833
00:48:15,077 --> 00:48:19,997
Mike and you put them into a managerial
role, even if they are effective as a

834
00:48:19,997 --> 00:48:24,227
manager, you've lost the value of their
performance as an individual contributor.

835
00:48:24,877 --> 00:48:29,627
So it's a real big gamble and we have
to be careful because sometimes the

836
00:48:29,707 --> 00:48:33,547
characteristics and attributes that make
individuals powerful as an individual

837
00:48:33,947 --> 00:48:37,907
can actually hinder them from being
good at working well to support others.

838
00:48:38,197 --> 00:48:41,367
It's, it's a different competency
set to be a leader and a manager

839
00:48:41,367 --> 00:48:43,167
than it is to be a sole contributor.

840
00:48:43,197 --> 00:48:47,817
So that's exactly the rationale behind
why we built that, that vertical out.

841
00:48:47,867 --> 00:48:52,167
And you know, in that particular,
assessment we've also seen it be used

842
00:48:52,167 --> 00:48:56,297
a lot to help organizations increase
diversity and their leadership potential

843
00:48:56,297 --> 00:48:57,777
and their leadership development programs.

844
00:48:57,777 --> 00:49:00,457
Because the problem with the model
that you shared before, Mike, that

845
00:49:00,457 --> 00:49:04,707
is so common, is when we get in the
habit of identifying our current top

846
00:49:04,707 --> 00:49:09,647
performers or we ask managers to, you
know, identify talent, it tends to

847
00:49:09,647 --> 00:49:11,567
happen through a similar to me process.

848
00:49:11,567 --> 00:49:13,771
Like, you know, the manager
says, Oh, well, yeah, Joe reminds

849
00:49:13,771 --> 00:49:15,977
me of myself 20 years ago.

850
00:49:15,977 --> 00:49:18,127
I think He's the one to tap.

851
00:49:18,177 --> 00:49:19,817
And of course, the problem
with that is that that

852
00:49:19,877 --> 00:49:22,547
automatically creates homogeneity.

853
00:49:22,877 --> 00:49:26,497
And it really damages an organization's
abilities to go in a different

854
00:49:26,497 --> 00:49:30,257
direction or to really open that
door for more people to consider it.

855
00:49:30,267 --> 00:49:33,097
So I mentioned leveling
the playing field before.

856
00:49:33,367 --> 00:49:37,587
It, in leadership, we see that as a really
big need in many organizations because

857
00:49:37,587 --> 00:49:41,927
they just don't have a process in place
that's scalable to figure out who do

858
00:49:41,927 --> 00:49:43,957
we want to fast track for development?

859
00:49:43,967 --> 00:49:46,687
Who do we want to put on that
leadership track so that we're

860
00:49:46,687 --> 00:49:48,487
ready when those roles open up?

861
00:49:48,487 --> 00:49:50,547
Mike Callen: Yes, very, very good points.

862
00:49:50,957 --> 00:49:55,227
Well, I, Jenny, don't
have any other questions.

863
00:49:55,227 --> 00:49:59,297
I'm looking through my, my list
of reminders that I had that

864
00:49:59,297 --> 00:50:01,167
I wanted to ask Chris about.

865
00:50:01,717 --> 00:50:05,887
So, Jenny, do you have any other
questions that you'd like to ask

866
00:50:05,887 --> 00:50:07,257
or comments you'd like to make?

867
00:50:08,202 --> 00:50:11,382
Jenny Arnez: No, I don't actually, I feel
like we're kind of we're winding down.

868
00:50:11,612 --> 00:50:13,402
We're at a good stopping point.

869
00:50:13,402 --> 00:50:16,792
I think for this conversation,
I mean, I definitely have other

870
00:50:16,792 --> 00:50:21,852
thoughts that I'd like to ask you
sometime Chris about AI and we kind

871
00:50:21,852 --> 00:50:25,112
of touched on this in a previous
conversation, but that's not for today.

872
00:50:25,112 --> 00:50:31,362
That's a, that's a whole different, street
that we'd be driving down, but I, I just

873
00:50:31,362 --> 00:50:33,822
am so grateful that you joined us today.

874
00:50:33,832 --> 00:50:36,652
And I've thoroughly
enjoyed this conversation.

875
00:50:36,662 --> 00:50:38,902
Any final thoughts from
either one of you guys?

876
00:50:39,532 --> 00:50:41,092
Chris Cunningham, PhD: I'm just
appreciative we have the chance to

877
00:50:41,102 --> 00:50:42,582
have these types of conversations.

878
00:50:42,682 --> 00:50:48,652
A lot of times what holds other
clients back is lack of awareness

879
00:50:48,652 --> 00:50:52,052
of some of the complexities and
nuances that operate under the hood.

880
00:50:52,462 --> 00:50:55,592
And then just being able to talk about
some of these topics, it may not be

881
00:50:55,592 --> 00:50:58,382
something that was on somebody's mind,
but then when they learn about it, they're

882
00:50:58,382 --> 00:50:59,792
like, yeah, you know, that was on my mind.

883
00:50:59,792 --> 00:51:00,972
I just didn't know what to call it.

884
00:51:01,302 --> 00:51:03,882
So it's important to have these
types of discussions and to

885
00:51:03,882 --> 00:51:05,112
raise these types of issues.

886
00:51:05,412 --> 00:51:07,392
So thank you both for
putting this together.

887
00:51:07,392 --> 00:51:10,302
And I'm always happy to, to
take that trip down those other

888
00:51:10,302 --> 00:51:11,392
streets when you guys are ready,

889
00:51:12,362 --> 00:51:13,012
Mike Callen: That's great.

890
00:51:13,492 --> 00:51:13,782
Yeah.

891
00:51:13,912 --> 00:51:18,312
I, I, I really appreciate you, you
being here today and you know, we,

892
00:51:18,352 --> 00:51:25,097
we hope that this content, you know,
meets the needs of new HR people.

893
00:51:25,197 --> 00:51:29,497
People are getting established and really
trying to learn, you know, about different

894
00:51:29,517 --> 00:51:31,427
aspects of testing and selection.

895
00:51:31,727 --> 00:51:35,407
But like I told Jenny before we
started today, I was really excited

896
00:51:35,407 --> 00:51:38,567
about this because, you know,
it's fun to geek out a little bit.

897
00:51:38,597 --> 00:51:42,377
And you know, when you have, you have
somebody that's a chief science officer,

898
00:51:42,377 --> 00:51:46,177
I mean, it sounds like you, you started
in Star Trek and, you know, you've just

899
00:51:46,217 --> 00:51:51,097
kind of graduated to where you are right
now, but it's, it's really great to to

900
00:51:51,107 --> 00:51:55,817
be able to pick your brain and and hear
your opinion on a lot of these things.

901
00:51:56,187 --> 00:51:59,387
As I mentioned, we've been
in conversations with Eric

902
00:51:59,387 --> 00:52:01,247
for many, many years now.

903
00:52:01,457 --> 00:52:05,507
When we first started talking about
integrating our products, you know, we

904
00:52:05,507 --> 00:52:09,387
had an installed product and it wasn't
something we could do at that time.

905
00:52:09,717 --> 00:52:11,647
But we've persisted in the conversation.

906
00:52:11,837 --> 00:52:14,317
And so, you know, now we're here.

907
00:52:14,497 --> 00:52:18,357
We've launched we've got the generic
off the shelf products available.

908
00:52:18,357 --> 00:52:23,177
We're going to work together to create
a market killer product for, you know,

909
00:52:23,177 --> 00:52:26,027
the 911 EMS police and fire space.

910
00:52:26,297 --> 00:52:28,557
And we're super excited
about that as well.

911
00:52:28,557 --> 00:52:33,867
And so anybody who's listening to this if
you're interested, I'm sure we'll have a

912
00:52:33,867 --> 00:52:39,387
form or, or some sort of call to action
available at the end of the video here.

913
00:52:39,647 --> 00:52:43,127
If you're an existing client and
you'd like to, you know, upgrade

914
00:52:43,127 --> 00:52:47,417
and add this incredible line of
testing to your subscription.

915
00:52:47,497 --> 00:52:50,327
You can reach out to us and
we'll be happy to get you set up.

916
00:52:50,727 --> 00:52:54,617
We can literally get that launched
for you in about five or 10 minutes.

917
00:52:55,017 --> 00:52:59,287
And if you're not a client and you'd
like to talk more about being one and

918
00:52:59,317 --> 00:53:03,767
being able to take advantage of this
incredible Logi-Serve product along

919
00:53:03,767 --> 00:53:07,397
with our hard skills tests we'd love
to chat with you about that as well.

920
00:53:07,397 --> 00:53:11,827
Again, Chris, thank you so much for
being so generous with your time today.

921
00:53:11,827 --> 00:53:14,427
We really appreciate you
you know, sharing with us.

922
00:53:14,437 --> 00:53:15,777
So thank you very much for that.

923
00:53:16,357 --> 00:53:16,797
Chris Cunningham, PhD: Likewise.

924
00:53:17,637 --> 00:53:20,487
Jenny Arnez: And we just want to say
thank you to our viewer and our listener.

925
00:53:20,527 --> 00:53:24,997
We're sure glad you joined us today and we
hope to connect in another place and time.

926
00:53:25,757 --> 00:53:26,537
Thank you everybody.

927
00:53:27,817 --> 00:53:28,267
Mike Callen: Thank you.

928
00:53:30,127 --> 00:53:33,927
Podcast-Outro: Thanks for tuning in to
Testing Testing 123 brought to you by

929
00:53:33,947 --> 00:53:35,797
TestGenius and Biddle Consulting Group.

930
00:53:36,597 --> 00:53:39,577
Visit our website at testgenius.com
for more information.