Welcome to Orthodox Christian Parenting, where we bring the church's timeless wisdom into the everyday chaos of raising kids. I'm Michelle Mujaias, and I'm thrilled to welcome back Doctor. Philip Manalakis, author of this classic Orthodox parenting book, Parenting Toward the Kingdom. If you don't have it, you absolutely should get it. Doctor Manalakis teaches pastoral care at Hellenic College Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology, and he's been a longtime friend and collaborator with us here at Faith Tree Resources.

And most importantly, doctor Manalakis is a father of seven children and now a grandfather of two. You know, we often hear that children are icons of Christ. What does that actually mean? And what difference does it even make for us in our parenting? As always, we're gonna get really practical, and we'll have some laughs, and then, God willing, we'll give you some real tools to bring faith into your family life.

Welcome back, Philip.

Thanks, Michelle. It's great to be back today.

It's so fun to have you back, and it's really fun for me, to get practical with you about the concept of our children being icons of Christ. What does that mean?

It means that, you know, when your parents and it's just chaos at the dinner, and they're either throwing stuff or they're running around, and you kinda wanna just scream. And we often think these are like little monsters, and it's really tempting to just see them as problems, and how can I control them? To say, to recognize that they are icons of Christ means a couple of things. Number one, you know, there is more to this little person than just a little person who's getting in the way, that this person is created in the image of God. The Orthodox are big on icons because icons are not just religious art.

They're a way of connecting to eternity. Okay. Like, we recognize that Jesus became man so that we could actually see God. So icons recognize that through physical matter, there's more going on. There's we can connect with the divine.

So to call a child an icon means that Christ is in our midst. Christ is in that child when we're calling to teach him. It means that what we do externally has an effect on who they are. Right? It means that it guides the way we relate to them.

Because for an Orthodox, we would never spray paint an icon. That just seems wrong.

And hopefully not a kid. Just wanna point that out.

Right. But when we react to a kid, it's like we're defacing

an icon. That's a great

Right. But then again, people criticize the Orthodox. We don't worship icons. No. We don't.

Because we know we venerated icon because the treatment of icon goes to Christ or whoever's in the icon.

Great.

Love another way we don't indulge our kids. You don't just give them what they want because that's actually destructive to them. That's like worshiping them. So having this understanding of icon for us as Orthodox helps us recognize that we are serving Christ when we're serving our kid. We are responding to God by the way we respond to our kids.

I think it's important because things can seem so mundane, so monotonous.

Yeah.

We're cleaning. We're cooking. We're picking up. We're either getting to bed or getting them up in the morning. And we're not created for the mundane.

We're created to connect with God in eternity. And when we recognize this child as icon, we can recognize that this little interaction I have with my little kid at the end of the night is eternal. Like, I'm touching his soul, and I'm actually connecting to Christ by the way I treat my son. Wow. So it's a nice way to recognize that although our homes may be messy, we feel like a failure.

There is something sacred beyond what you see in the physical. Because as Orthodox, we recognize there's more to reality than just this physical things that you see. And that's really important for parenting.

I love it. You know, I think sometimes, especially when you're tired, or especially when you've been at it for a really long week, there's this sense that it's burdensome to have to get up and do it again. Right. You know, and I think if you can shift focus and you can shift your paradigm into actually seeing that you are connecting with Christ, this is a way of really, it's stewardship of what he's entrusted to you. It does change how you even approach the conversations or those end of night tuck ins.

It helps us it helps me as a dad understand that I am growing closer to God as I'm learning to do it again the next day. Mhmm. Just to confess, I never like bedtimes.

Mhmm.

You know, I'm exhausted at the end of the day. I've got no brain power left. And for some reason, bedtimes always took two hours. There's nothing I could do. I'm a trained professional.

Just they it would not it was always hard. But I just would remind myself that I am growing in this. Mhmm. Right? That this self offering toward my kids is actually toward God.

And then we see that, oh, I am becoming I'm maturing as a person.

Mhmm.

I am growing. I'm like, alright. The problem in parenting is not that my kids are acting like kids. Problem is I I don't wanna I don't wanna grow. I kinda wanna just do what I wanna do.

Mhmm. So it really helps us understand the sacred nature of what happens in the home. And if we want kids to grow up with a sense that there's there's a sacred reality, that they're they carry Christ within them, we can learn how to respond in a way that reflects that.

So what would that look like? Like, give me a give me an actual example from your home or any home.

Right? Imagine the kids are fighting at bedtime. They just do not wanna go to bed, and I'm feeling like freaking out. I'm overwhelmed. Right?

If I recognize that Christ is present, the first thing I can do is I can actually say a prayer. Right? And and and just consciously invite God to be present. The second thing is I can see the path. Alright.

My role here is just to struggle with them and to walk with them, and that will help me not freak out. It'll help me not react to them. And so then it allows us to go to, like, say, alright. What's the best way to engage them? And suddenly, if my job isn't if this isn't a problem that I'm facing, but this is something sacred where Christ is present, what's the best way to engage my kids to go to bed?

Oh, suddenly, why don't I do a little song? I can I can, you know, make the toothbrush talk? I can engage them in a and we would do a little ritual around how are we gonna undress. And suddenly, it can put me on the offense as a parent. Because when we think of them as a burden, we're kind of resistant.

Love is offensive. I remember a mom telling me she was traveling, and her three kids were just having a meltdown because they were in a hotel and then on a bus. And she said to me, I guess you just have to be patient. Right? And I I said, well, that's true.

What I wish I would have told her is, yes, you have to be patient, but not a patience that endures misbehavior.

Okay.

But you wanna go on the offense. Kids behave better when we engage them. So if they're if we're resisting God's invitation, our kids can feel it. And then now it's just it's just hard. What if we went on the offense?

What if we said, alright, guys. Who's bored? Alright. What are three things we can do? Alright.

Let's think of an act you know, think of an activity or let's do this. It's it takes something out of us.

Mhmm.

But it's offensive, and love is offensive. And so when we can recognize that our invitation is not to endure our kids' misbehavior, but to pray for and to make a decision to to be all in. And that that's the nature of love. And so our kids kids behave better when we are proactive and engaged with them. Mhmm.

But usually at bedtime, just wanna say, guys, just go to bed, and we we kind of bark orders.

Right.

They don't wanna go to bed, and I don't wanna put them to Right.

Right. Right. Right.

So they don't wanna do what they have to do. And then I, as the adult, also don't wanna have to do it. One of those people has an opportunity

Yeah. That's great.

To act like the adult.

That's great. I think also it's an invitation for us to kinda think about what behaviors are distracting us from being present. And I mean, we gotta call it out. Bones are a big distraction. I can't tell you.

My oldest kids, there were no smartphones when they were born. And now looking at my younger two, just at my behavior and to see their little hands try to turn my face towards them or to say, mom, mom, mom, there has to be a break in the behaviors that we've become accustomed to. Right. Because then, I mean, it really is a choice that we make. You know?

Right. I know that the temptation was to forget. Right? Saint Mark the aesthetic writes that the three main sins are forgetfulness, ignorance, forgetfulness, and laziness. Number one, ignorance.

We don't really realize that this bedtime routine is really formative to them. Mhmm. They get a real sense about how valuable they are, how much we are gonna take time and invest in it.

Yes.

Yes. Good. Learn. This is why this podcast is so beautiful. Like, you're trying to un help us everyone see as parents.

This is significant. It's worth your time to learn. It's worth your time to get in to and here's how to do it. You know, set limits, whatever we're gonna teach. Ignorance.

Forgetfulness. We just forget. We're tired at the end of the day, and they're like, I don't wanna do this. And then the third one is laziness. It is just hard.

It's so hard.

It is hard. I would rather be sitting down. It's worse when we would have company. I just wanna sit with the adults. Mhmm.

I gotta be up putting kids to bed. And so we recognize, oh, it is hard. That's not a problem. That's a feature of parenting. And I wanna choose that I would love my kids, and this is an act of love toward God.

So is there a way to grow in stamina with that? So for example, when you haven't been with adults for a really long time and you wanna have those conversations, but you have to take a chunk of your evening could go do a two hour bedtime routine. How do you how do you grow that muscle?

It's great. Number one, we change the way we speak. Rather than I have to go do it, I get to go do it. Mhmm. Because if that's sacred was happening

Mhmm.

We wanna think, alright. And it's just that language changes our feelings.

Yeah. I love that.

Right? We remind ourselves this is the most sacred thing. I remind myself, this will keep my kids out of therapy when they're older.

Yeah. Great.

That's right. They get a sense that their dad is all in. Their mom is all in. You wanna tag team as a parent if you have a parent to tag team with? Yep.

And that just helps us. And then with that shift of mind, you know, what do we do? This is where we just do it. And when you engage with these kids, it doesn't make it easy, but we connect.

Right.

So I was at dinner once with all this company, And sure enough, it was time for bed, and I was like, oh, you know, confessed the struggle. Because other people are like, yes. I understand it's hard. This is why we need parents.

That's right.

One of the moms got up, and she had older kids. She came up to me and she said, Philip, I noticed that you had to go. You have the most beautiful job. I miss putting my kids

to bed.

And you know what she reminded me? That is the most beautiful job.

It is. And I think But you need that reminder. That's right. And when you think of it as sacred, it really does allow you to kind of realign your priorities and remember, like, hang on a second. Right.

This is the number one thing right now.

The number think about what we're gonna do with our lives.

Mhmm.

Right? And so the church helps us see that we tend to wanna do things that are easy that please us.

Mhmm.

Sit downstairs, have another glass of wine.

It's so true.

And the church tells us that is not the road to fullness of life. That the road to fullness of life, to be happy, is to follow that path of self offering love. Mhmm. So we're reminded at bedtime, we see this divine choice. And I remind myself, if I choose to sacrifice my comfort to do what's good for my kids, you're gonna be connected to them.

Mhmm. They're gonna wanna be with you. They're gonna wanna speak to you. You're gonna have that beautiful intimate family dinner that everyone wants.

That's right.

Everyone wants a home where they come home to where people love each other and connect it.

That's right.

That's what all of us want. The church tells us the path to having that beautiful Norman Rockwell dinner is doing the hard thing

That's right.

Of parental self sacrifice. We just remind ourselves, it's beautiful, and we choose it. I choose it. And then I use force. I force myself to do it.

That's right.

But that choice is important. It's offensive.

I love it. So I know we're talking about young ones, and bedtime is the perfect analogy. Help me understand how do we look at our teenagers or even emerging adults as icons of Christ? What does that look like?

I don't know what's harder. When they're four years old and there's chaos at the dinner table or when they're 14 and they're giving you an eye roll Oh, yeah. Back talk.

Oh, yeah.

Or, you know, those are tough years because by nature, they're gonna grow into autonomy. So what is our role there? Well, our role, again, is to walk with them. And we still set limits, but they need to be a little broader. And it it's really important at this age to be respectful and to be curious and to ask them what they think instead of constantly telling them what to

to be curious and respectful. Okay.

To ask them what they think before we just tell them what to do. So oftentimes parents, you get into the habit of just controlling a child.

Right. Right. Right.

Right. And a 14 year old, that is that's just not gonna work. So

At what point does that controlling stop?

So, ideally, if our goal is to teach our children how to use their good judgment, so by the time they leave our home, they have an ability to use good judgment. That means that we have to slowly, as soon as they're able to make choices, give them opportunities to have choice within our parameters. And that's as early as two or three years old. What shoes would you like to wear? Which dress would you like to wear?

Which dessert would you like? You kind of you it's good to And give kids as they grow, instead of telling them what to do so much, you start asking them more what they think. So when my teenagers were wanna go out, I would say, well, tell me. Who are you gonna go with? When are gonna come back?

Kind of the five questions of why, who, when, where. And then I ask them, you know, what what am I concerned about, and what do I not I'm not so concerned about. I don't really care if you're outside. There's certain things that I care about, and it's pretty clear to them. So that that those kinds of conversations because Right.

That's how we develop judgment. So the icon of Christ means it can be really hard to do that, but the way we respect them, that respect, again, is toward God.

Mhmm.

That we are respecting God through respecting our kids. And it requires the same ongoing growth, the same letting go of fear and letting go of control. It's scary when a toddler climbs a slide. It's terrifying when a 17 year old is gonna get into a car and drive around town.

Mhmm.

Or it's late at night.

That's right.

And it's so hard not to be totally activated and feared. Do you know all the things that could go wrong?

Yeah. So what do you do about that? Because I'm really good at going over all the things that can

go wrong. We have an expansive awareness of all the things that could go wrong. And our 17 year olds have no awareness

That's right.

Of all the things that could go wrong.

So what what was that like in the Mama Lakas house?

Terrifying. The only thing I recommend is I knew it was my problem.

Okay.

And I refuse to allow myself to parent my children in fear. Great. Because if we're freaking out with them over the phone and telling them all the things could go wrong, how does that help their good judgment? We really have to take a deep breath. We have to relax.

We have to pray for them. Yes. Imagine if prayer is actually a parenting tool.

That's right.

That's right. We recognize that god loves them.

And discernment, I think, is so important. So one of our sons, came to us and said I mean, he was probably, like, eight at the time and said, mom, are you gonna be so scared when I pull out of the driveway for the first time? And I said, no, son. I'm not. Because if I'm scared, you're not pulling out of the driveway.

So we gotta make sure that you are you know, obviously, I will pray for you and be concerned, and we know what can happen, but we'll make sure that you're good and ready. So I think discernment and knowing that things can go wrong, but, like, we all learned how to drive. It's gonna be alright.

And if we just remember how we were at 17 That's right. We thought we were perfectly capable

That's right.

And we were completely unaware of the risks. That's the heart of it Oh. Is to learn to parent our kids in love and not in fear. And at the heart of it is how what do we do that can help them use good judgment? Right.

So my son borrowed our car, oh my gosh, and took his friend to Downtown Boston. I'm like, he went to Downtown Boston. How are you gonna find parking? Well, he was oblivious. Yeah.

To how bad parking is. They he parked illegally in someone's private driveway.

Oh, gee.

And and miraculously, he got back to the car, and the homeowner was there and yelling. And they said, I'm gonna call the cops. And he he kind of apologized, and and they let him go. On the way, he told his friend, oh, I'm gonna call my dad and tell him. He says, I need to tell my dad this.

And the friend said, oh my gosh. That's the last person I would call is my dad. I said, that is my goal with parenting.

That's awesome.

Of course, he made a boneheaded move. Yeah. He didn't really check-in with me. I didn't know he was gonna go down there. I would've I don't drive in Boston at night.

Right. Right.

Right. She doesn't know. But these things are gonna happen. He actually thank god.

He did well. But these things That's amazing.

You walk with your kids. Because I think if he has a sense, I can call my dad anytime. If he can hear my voice in his head while he's like, oh, my dad wouldn't like this, That's a protective factor. We call

that. Love that.

And that helps them use good judgment. So the goal, my fear does not help them.

In that situation or any?

My peace and my presence. Yeah. Our presence and our peace is a protective factor.

I love it.

And that's a challenge for us. So now we see again, Michelle, my journey of acquiring peace and trusting in God is completely interwoven with me walking with an adolescent as he or she is growing up. We need to recognize that.

Yeah. So let me ask you. I'm gonna dig deep on this analogy. And, you know, we say our children are icons of Christ. In that, what are we?

We're not the iconographer. We're the caretaker. What are we? How do we how do we I love what you said earlier about, you know, we would never spray paint an icon. This we would treat them with reverence, and we would treat them, as holy.

How do we treat icon? We are the ones who have God has given us this icon.

So, basically, they are in our prayer corner and

Right. Okay. And and, again, whose child is it? Mhmm. Right?

We are stewards. We have such a beautiful theology of of the physical world. We're stewards of creation. Mhmm. Right?

We're called to attend to it, not to use it for our purposes or to destroy it.

Mhmm.

And this is parenting. They are not there for us. They're not there to make us feel good. They're not even there to thank us.

Mhmm.

Right? They're given to us for us to attend to. And the beautiful thing is they are not objects of our parenting. They're they're a person, and it's a relationship we're entering in.

Great.

And what's really important in parenting is we recognize that this act of love is gonna change me. Right? It's not just my kid needs to learn this. Actually, parenting is I need to learn this. Nice.

It reminds me of talked to a a dog trainer who said, you know, we talk about, you know, dog owners will bring their dogs here, and they'll say, can you train my dog? He said, what we really do is dog owner training.

Yeah. That's right.

That we teach the dog owner how a dog thinks and how a dog learns. And if the owner respects that, they can get the dog to do it. That's parent education. Teaching parents what's going on in a child, how they learn and think, and for our purposes, how they develop good judgment. And it's for us to respond to that.

I love it.

And so what we notice in the church then is that's that's venerating an icon of Christ. Mhmm. Respect. Right? We're not freaking out or controlling.

We're not abandoning and being so preoccupied in our adult world that we'll stay downstairs and have wine rather than do the hard thing of sacrificing ourselves for them. One of the things we see in our culture is increasingly parents who are not interested or or willing to make those types of sacrifices for their kids, to adjust our schedules, to give up some of the things we wanna do, to to lose our evenings and give them to our kids. And so you end up with kids that are that they feel that. They get a sense of being alone. They get a sense that no one's really interested.

It doesn't matter what I do. And when a kid grows up in a home where you get a sense, my parents would rather do their thing than pay attention to me, again, that's directed toward Christ. That affects their inner lives. We're not created for

that. Mhmm.

We're created to be loved, that selfless love where, yes, it's a one way street. We are sacrificing ourselves for them. It's one way. That, again, is the nature of Christ like love. It's that Christ is in the midst, so he joins us, and he transforms us in it.

I I mean, listen. I always wanna go to, like, formulas or percentages or some kind of step by step plan that will tell me if I'm in the zone, but help me think through this. So my best guess is that for each kid, it will look a little different. For each season of life, for each phase of their it's going to look different for everybody. So there are some times or periods of life where there's travel for work or there's, you know, heavy responsibility in your church life or, you know, they're less available because of schools.

Is that just an adjust and go with your gut? Like, is there a way that we would know we're staying balanced and kind of attending well?

Number one, if we're asking the question, that's good.

Okay.

Because at least we're noticing.

K.

Like, our children don't need us to be at every baseball game. Mhmm. They need us to know we play baseball. They need us and we can ask about it. So if you're asking the question, am I losing track of my kids?

That's a good question to ask. Number two, you can see it oftentimes in misbehavior.

Okay. Tell me about that.

Kids will act out when they feel disconnected. Right? So if your kid's having a difficulty, maybe especially through transitions, coming home from school, starting a school year, or they're just don't seem to be thriving, one of the first places we can look is, are they feeling disconnected from me?

Okay.

That's a key. The third thing is when we make decisions, it's good to have a type of structured connection because we are busy. I'm really busy. No matter how busy I was, Georgia and I made a plan every Wednesday night I would be home. No exceptions.

Right? My kids don't need me home all the time. They would like me home all the time, but they don't need that. They just need to know when I will be home. Mhmm.

Because having predictability allows us to have that time together. And when I was home, no phone, no calls, nothing. I was 100% in.

Yes. Right.

So they could look forward to it, and they could reflect on it. Between those times, I'm tracking them. I'm checking in. So we can that's the type of way we can stay connected even when we're busy. And I think we need to look at that.

You can ask the other parent, what do you think? Because sometimes the kids will start reporting, I miss mom. I miss dad. We wanna take that seriously. Now my kids, every time I left, they would be like, why do you have to leave?

Right? That's true. My kids would melt down when Georgia and I would go on a date. Yeah. Right?

It's important. I'm not here to worship this icon. I just know there's times when we're away, and there's times we're together. And in between, I'm constantly checking in. That's kind of the model.

And then we correct as needed. Like, if we're gone for a particular busy two weeks, we stay home a little longer to reconnect.

Right. I think that what I love about that is that there's room for intentionality and really looking at what's happening in the world in, you know

It's gonna be a busy time. Yeah. But imagine if our job was to walk alongside them. So anytime we're away, we should have a good reason why we're away. Yeah.

Like, when I travel, I wouldn't linger. I said, I'm gonna go right back. Right. Because I know this is a time that my role as a parent our role as parents is to be present in their lives. Mhmm.

More than what we say, are we in the home? You know, it's it's not quality time or quantity. It's quantity time. Do they have a sense? And then you know how some people track the stock market, some people track sports teams?

Parenting is about tracking your kid.

Mhmm.

Do you know what they're doing? Do you know how they're doing? Do you know who they're with? You could do that from anywhere. And that's kind of how we we keep our finger on the pulse of our child.

Right. And if we get they get a sense they're not doing well, we come a little closer. You get a sense they're doing well, we take a step back. I checked in with my son after my last trip. He's like, oh, I'm doing fine.

I'm gonna go out. I'm like, oh, I can start staying away for three days. This guy seems to be doing fine. He's a senior in high school. That type of responsiveness.

The goal of parenting is not to be a good parent. The goal of parenting is to be responsive to our children.

Mhmm.

They don't want someone who's trying to be a good parent. Our kids want someone who's paying attention.

Right. I like that.

And with Icons, that attentiveness is directed toward God. It helps us grow closer to God. It helps us get out of our self centered world. It allows us to the Holy Spirit to move in us and for us to grow and learn.

I love it. I have questions from some of our viewers, so I'm gonna ask you. Alright. Let's look here. This came from Chris.

Today, Chris asks, how do we approach dating when society pushes so hard for children to begin dating so young? Seems like every influencer is pushing kids to get into sexual relationships.

Great question. I think we undistinguish between dating and sexual relationships.

Okay.

Number one. Number two, the way I approach it with my children is I want them to think about what they're doing to be intentional. So some people say you can't date until college. And I'm like, well, does that mean you can do stupid things in college? Like, it doesn't really help children understand, well, what is dating?

Mhmm. Our goal is to prepare our men and women, our boys and girls, to be in adult relationships. So the tendency is to enter into a relationship without thinking just because I like her, just because it feels good, just because everyone is doing it. The way we help kids is by stopping and saying, well, I don't have an opinion necessarily about dating. Tell me why you wanna date.

Mhmm. And then tell me what it is. And now tell me how you're gonna relate to each other. Mhmm. So those types of conversations, I think are key.

Now my family, we go back and forth all the time. My daughters say, oh, you should've let us date. We should've not let you date. My thing is, I said, if you're old enough to be thinking about someone you know what you're doing and why. You've got boundaries on the relationship.

You're getting to know someone as a person. Yeah. I think it's reasonable to date, but that's that question. It's about it's the conversation you have with your parents.

Yeah. And when you have that relationship, you can also remember that everybody, even who you're dating, are icons of Christ. And there's and there's the support network to figure out that intentionality, Like, do

you want to or against because that doesn't open up dialogue. Right. The nicest thing is where are they gonna learn about relationships? This is what the church is for. Mhmm.

Because I want them to hear from others. I want them to go to church and have a discussion where the youth leader and the this this is what relationships are for. And then I'm walking with them Mhmm. As they're learning to relate to someone. So that's an ongoing conversation.

When they're in high school, remember, they're gonna go to college and be unattended, which means senior year, they should be pretty much running their lives under in our house.

In our house.

Right. A lot to do with where you're going, what are you gonna do, a lot of conversations about what are the risks, what are the things we're for, what are things that are not okay, you know, what are you thinking, just to challenge everyone to be intentional.

I love that. So this question comes from a grandmother. We love our grandparents here at Orthodox Christian Parenting. Joyce is a grandmother of three and asks, how do I lead my grandkids to Christianity when their parents only see the bad things that have been done in the name of God?

Great. That's a beautiful question and a tough situation.

Sure.

When we think of Christianity as a religion and some things we have to do, well, that's kinda hard because the parents are gonna say, we don't want them doing that stuff. But when we think about Christianity as we do in the Orthodox Church, it's it's Christ himself. It's the nature of love. Then as a grandparent, you just love these kids. Give them a taste of responsive adult who's checking in with them, asking them questions, and relating to them.

So they they grew up with a grandparent who they really feel like I could always talk to. Mhmm. I feel close to. I feel loved by. They will get a taste of Christ's love without you even saying it.

Mhmm. And the second thing, which is really the first thing, is we pray for them. Mhmm. We pray for them. We pray with them as much as the parents allow.

Right? We take them to church as much as the parent allowed, but nothing replaces the nature of Christ himself, his love in that relationship. Remember, they know we are Christian not by our church services or by our fasting, but by our love. Right. And I remind myself, it doesn't take God very much to transform and touch someone's heart.

I love that.

But our tempting thing is we're gonna fear and and, you know, see all the darkness. Right. That's a temptation.

I think grandparents play such an important role in the lives of our young people and in their faith formation. Christian Smith, who did all that great work out of Notre Dame, just recently came out with his latest work. I think it's called handing down the faith, and he talks about intergenerational handing down from grandparents to parents to grandkids.

No question.

It is critical that grandparents

watching it in our own family.

Stay invested.

Georgia will go visit, Kirana and her daughter and her son, and Kirana's really busy. She's a busy mom of two. She's constantly going, well, grandparents come in. We kinda have a little more time Yep. A little more bandwidth.

Yep. So she'll do the little morning prayers with her, take her time, and and and little Victoria will learn all these things.

Right.

And it's a beautiful connection. I think that is our vocation as grandparents, to stay present

That's right.

To stay silent

That's right.

And to stay prayerful. Yeah. The Holy Spirit nothing can stop the Holy Spirit

That's right.

No matter what the circumstance is.

I love it. Alright. Any last words on the, children as icons of Christ before we say goodbye for this episode?

I think it's a beautiful thing to learn, and it reminds me of how much parenting is a learning process. And the more we take our time and look for opportunities to learn, the more we grow and the more it blesses our children.

I love it. Philip, thank you as always. Alright. And thanks to you for listening to this week's episode of Orthodox Christian Parenting. You know, every week, we're here just to help you raise your children to know Christ and to love him, and God willing, we'll spend their lives trying to be like him.

And, hey, listen. If this episode blessed you, would you do us a favor? Would you consider leaving a review or sharing it with a friend? And here's why. When you do that, it helps us get to more families just like yours so that they also can find the show.

And one last thing, don't forget if you wanna go deeper, you can download this week's free discussion guide in the show notes or by going to faithtree.org/parenting. The guide is absolutely free. It's a gift to you and a great opportunity for you to think more deeply about what we talked about today with your spouse or your friends or your community at church. So make sure you check it out, and we'll see you God willing next time.