1 00:00:00,660 --> 00:00:03,170 Narrator: Welcome to Testing, Testing 1-2-3. 2 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:08,350 A podcast brought to you by TestGenius 3 00:00:08,983 --> 00:00:12,853 Jenny Arnez: Welcome everybody to Testing, Testing 1-2-3. 4 00:00:13,543 --> 00:00:17,443 This podcast is a presentation, a Biddle Consulting Group, incorporated 5 00:00:17,593 --> 00:00:19,593 the publishers of TestGenius. 6 00:00:20,113 --> 00:00:24,553 The topics covered in this podcast are sometimes controversial and pertain 7 00:00:24,553 --> 00:00:26,563 to an often changing landscape. 8 00:00:27,433 --> 00:00:31,813 The opinions expressed of the host, Mike and myself, and guests are their 9 00:00:31,813 --> 00:00:36,163 own and may not align with those of the organization for which they work. 10 00:00:36,703 --> 00:00:40,423 None of the conversation or resources shared on this podcast should 11 00:00:40,423 --> 00:00:42,313 be construed to be legal advice. 12 00:00:42,808 --> 00:00:47,698 As a best practice, if you have concerns over these issues or opinions 13 00:00:47,698 --> 00:00:52,198 expressed, you should explore them with an attorney or other expert. 14 00:00:53,908 --> 00:00:55,888 And with that, let's begin. 15 00:00:55,948 --> 00:01:01,258 With me again today is Mike Callen, the President of TestGenius. 16 00:01:01,438 --> 00:01:01,978 Michael Callen: Hello, Jenny. 17 00:01:02,878 --> 00:01:04,618 Good to be back with you as always. 18 00:01:04,978 --> 00:01:06,058 Jenny Arnez: Yes. 19 00:01:06,148 --> 00:01:07,048 I love these. 20 00:01:07,048 --> 00:01:08,398 I love these conversations. 21 00:01:08,398 --> 00:01:09,448 Always learn a lot. 22 00:01:10,018 --> 00:01:11,458 Michael Callen: Yep, I do as well. 23 00:01:11,608 --> 00:01:12,088 Thank you. 24 00:01:12,358 --> 00:01:12,978 Jenny Arnez: Oh good. 25 00:01:13,028 --> 00:01:17,478 Today our topic is You Say You Don't Test.". 26 00:01:17,898 --> 00:01:19,608 And let me give a little context of that. 27 00:01:21,153 --> 00:01:26,643 Our team attends about 25 conferences and trade shows a year. 28 00:01:27,603 --> 00:01:32,313 And sometimes people will come up to our trade show booth and they'll 29 00:01:32,313 --> 00:01:35,903 be looking at our backdrop and our sign and they'll look at and they 30 00:01:35,903 --> 00:01:38,003 go, oh, testing, you do testing. 31 00:01:38,123 --> 00:01:39,533 Oh, we don't do that. 32 00:01:40,733 --> 00:01:43,103 And sometimes it leads into a conversation. 33 00:01:43,103 --> 00:01:47,213 So we thought it would be beneficial today to talk about 34 00:01:47,213 --> 00:01:50,253 that So you say you don't test? 35 00:01:52,293 --> 00:01:52,593 Michael Callen: Yeah. 36 00:01:52,773 --> 00:01:55,923 Often it doesn't lead into a conversation. 37 00:01:56,943 --> 00:02:00,753 And so I think, that's why I'm so excited to have this conversation with 38 00:02:00,753 --> 00:02:06,123 you today is that we have an opportunity to talk about this really important 39 00:02:06,123 --> 00:02:12,463 issue that I feel really passionately about and be able to provide some 40 00:02:12,653 --> 00:02:18,323 really great reasons why having that attitude is wrong and why people 41 00:02:18,323 --> 00:02:20,843 absolutely, positively should be testing. 42 00:02:21,083 --> 00:02:21,413 Jenny Arnez: Okay. 43 00:02:21,983 --> 00:02:24,733 And actually just occurred to me, Mike, maybe we should pull 44 00:02:24,733 --> 00:02:25,933 back the lens a little bit. 45 00:02:26,473 --> 00:02:30,103 Do you want to just kinda give a couple of sentences about what 46 00:02:30,103 --> 00:02:32,473 we do what, when we say testing. 47 00:02:33,143 --> 00:02:34,468 TestGenius and testing. 48 00:02:34,468 --> 00:02:35,488 What are we talking about? 49 00:02:36,058 --> 00:02:39,918 Michael Callen: What we do is predominantly skill and ability testing. 50 00:02:40,098 --> 00:02:43,578 We started off mostly doing hard skills and abilities. 51 00:02:43,578 --> 00:02:50,388 Really concrete work sample type of tests where people are having to do the kind of 52 00:02:50,388 --> 00:02:55,918 tasks or duties that they would have to do on the job, but without having on the 53 00:02:55,918 --> 00:02:58,318 job experience or on the job training. 54 00:02:58,318 --> 00:03:02,928 So basically what we do is we look at jobs, we look at job analyses, 55 00:03:02,928 --> 00:03:06,898 and we try to sort out what are the fundamental skills and abilities that 56 00:03:06,898 --> 00:03:09,268 are necessary for success on a job. 57 00:03:09,628 --> 00:03:16,918 And, but how can we make sure that the job applicants have the requisite amount of 58 00:03:16,918 --> 00:03:22,978 success in that skillability area on day one of the job as is required by the job. 59 00:03:23,028 --> 00:03:24,408 So that's what we're trying to do. 60 00:03:24,408 --> 00:03:29,578 And now after we started off in that route, we've subsequently added a lot 61 00:03:29,578 --> 00:03:33,868 of soft skills tests and even some personality tests in different markets. 62 00:03:34,138 --> 00:03:37,378 And so we're doing more than hard skills testing, but also 63 00:03:37,378 --> 00:03:38,998 soft skills testing as well. 64 00:03:39,448 --> 00:03:45,308 So what we're gonna talk about today is, why is it that an organization 65 00:03:45,368 --> 00:03:50,848 should absolutely consider to employ these skill and ability testing and 66 00:03:50,848 --> 00:03:55,898 personality, soft skills testing products ours and other people's as well. 67 00:03:56,318 --> 00:04:01,328 Particularly if they have an attitude where they're against doing so. 68 00:04:01,328 --> 00:04:02,438 So that's it. 69 00:04:03,158 --> 00:04:03,968 Jenny Arnez: Okay, great. 70 00:04:03,968 --> 00:04:04,538 Thank you Mike. 71 00:04:04,538 --> 00:04:05,558 Thanks for that background. 72 00:04:05,928 --> 00:04:07,998 Why don't I go ahead and put our slides up 73 00:04:10,368 --> 00:04:12,398 and do you want to kick us off? 74 00:04:13,778 --> 00:04:15,998 Michael Callen: Yeah, I think you kicked us off perfectly. 75 00:04:16,028 --> 00:04:21,728 Really this was a hundred percent inspired by real life conversations, 76 00:04:21,728 --> 00:04:23,588 that we have at conferences where, 77 00:04:23,978 --> 00:04:29,718 HR managers, recruiters, people that are right in the space that, the folks 78 00:04:29,718 --> 00:04:33,318 that we want to talk to and the folks who should be really interested in 79 00:04:33,318 --> 00:04:38,228 what we do sometimes walk up to us and say, oh, we either don't do this 80 00:04:38,228 --> 00:04:39,788 or we've been told we can't do this. 81 00:04:39,788 --> 00:04:43,148 Or even sometimes people say it's illegal to do this. 82 00:04:43,148 --> 00:04:45,138 And, of course that's not the case. 83 00:04:45,188 --> 00:04:47,468 But that's what we want to do is break it down. 84 00:04:47,468 --> 00:04:53,098 And so I have five main points that I want to talk about with you today, Jenny. 85 00:04:53,428 --> 00:04:57,773 And within the first one, there's about 10 subpoints that are in there. 86 00:04:57,773 --> 00:04:58,903 And yeah, let's just do that. 87 00:04:58,903 --> 00:05:00,103 Let's just go ahead and kick it off. 88 00:05:00,183 --> 00:05:05,113 So point number one whether you're testing or you're not testing, it's 89 00:05:05,113 --> 00:05:12,883 super important to know or remember that nearly everything that occurs 90 00:05:12,943 --> 00:05:15,283 in a recruitment is already a test. 91 00:05:16,843 --> 00:05:20,323 Even if you're not doing hard skills and ability testing or personality 92 00:05:20,323 --> 00:05:25,883 testing or behavioral testing, it's very likely that what you are doing some of 93 00:05:25,883 --> 00:05:28,553 what you're doing is literally testing. 94 00:05:29,153 --> 00:05:32,573 I think the next slide has a point on here. 95 00:05:32,623 --> 00:05:37,283 What we want to talk about here when we talk about testing people tend to 96 00:05:37,283 --> 00:05:43,043 gravitate towards a test, a typing test, or a multitasking test or a personality 97 00:05:43,043 --> 00:05:45,203 test, and to think of that as tests. 98 00:05:45,573 --> 00:05:51,363 But back in the 1960s there was a landmark case called Griggs versus Duke Power. 99 00:05:51,933 --> 00:05:56,313 And I want to say right up front I've learned all this from our CEO Dan 100 00:05:56,313 --> 00:05:59,773 Biddle I was not educated in this arena. 101 00:05:59,983 --> 00:06:05,613 And working around him and learning from him, I was able to understand the genesis 102 00:06:05,613 --> 00:06:14,003 of this particular topic, When the Civil Rights Act of 1964 came into to play there 103 00:06:14,003 --> 00:06:19,403 was basically it was explained that as an unlawful to discriminate against race 104 00:06:19,723 --> 00:06:22,723 or to not hire minorities intentionally. 105 00:06:22,783 --> 00:06:25,393 And so to us it's duh. 106 00:06:25,443 --> 00:06:27,243 That's the most obvious thing in the world. 107 00:06:27,663 --> 00:06:31,803 But there was literally a time and a place and our not too distant past 108 00:06:32,073 --> 00:06:34,773 where this was a regular occurrence. 109 00:06:35,133 --> 00:06:38,773 And so the Civil Rights Act of 64 came out. 110 00:06:38,773 --> 00:06:44,393 It was ratified but it didn't come into effect until 1965 and 111 00:06:44,963 --> 00:06:49,803 the Duke Power Company was hiring for a particular position. 112 00:06:50,103 --> 00:06:56,733 And so what they did is they decided to employ a test that they thought 113 00:06:56,733 --> 00:07:01,243 would screen out minorities because they had to now have some sort of 114 00:07:01,243 --> 00:07:03,193 decision making process in place. 115 00:07:03,493 --> 00:07:06,973 And they waited until the very, very end of 1964. 116 00:07:07,343 --> 00:07:13,973 as it turns out, that test, as they had intended, had really bad adverse impact. 117 00:07:14,343 --> 00:07:18,763 But furthermore, it wasn't valid or consistent with business 118 00:07:18,763 --> 00:07:20,983 necessity for this particular job. 119 00:07:21,163 --> 00:07:26,443 It was testing for things that went way above and beyond the 120 00:07:26,443 --> 00:07:28,423 requirements of this particular job. 121 00:07:29,293 --> 00:07:33,223 And so there was a plaintiff named Griggs who, hired an attorney, 122 00:07:33,223 --> 00:07:37,773 and sued Duke Power because of this unfair testing practice. 123 00:07:38,043 --> 00:07:43,373 And during the course of this case it was determined or what was defined 124 00:07:43,373 --> 00:07:48,363 was something called PPTs, which we refer to a lot within, our internal 125 00:07:48,363 --> 00:07:52,863 Biddle Consulting Group space PPTs, as the slide shows stands for 126 00:07:52,953 --> 00:07:55,923 practices, procedures, or tests. 127 00:07:55,983 --> 00:08:02,043 And so when we talk about a test there's two layers of definition. 128 00:08:02,043 --> 00:08:07,263 If you zoom right in on it, there's the testing that TestGenius does. 129 00:08:07,453 --> 00:08:10,813 If you need to type on a job, we're gonna give you a typing test that's 130 00:08:10,813 --> 00:08:14,303 gonna measure speed and accuracy within a certain amount of time with 131 00:08:14,303 --> 00:08:18,413 content that might be similar to the content that would be typed on the job. 132 00:08:18,413 --> 00:08:24,293 That's a test and it's really obvious, but there are tons of other aspects 133 00:08:24,533 --> 00:08:30,203 of the recruitment process that are practices, procedures, and tests that 134 00:08:30,203 --> 00:08:37,663 result in some portion of an applicant population not advancing in a recruitment. 135 00:08:38,258 --> 00:08:45,818 And so therefore, any of these steps that occur within the recruitment process 136 00:08:45,818 --> 00:08:51,638 should be considered to be tests or PPTs practices, procedures, and tests. 137 00:08:52,058 --> 00:08:58,028 Certain PPTs that are in place that maybe wouldn't directly screen a group 138 00:08:58,028 --> 00:09:03,998 of people out, but maybe because of how they are constructed or where they 139 00:09:03,998 --> 00:09:08,798 are posted or located, they actually end up precluding a portion of the 140 00:09:08,798 --> 00:09:13,688 population from even being included in the process from the very start. 141 00:09:14,048 --> 00:09:18,968 Most organizations use a software program called an applicant tracking system. 142 00:09:19,398 --> 00:09:23,388 the main purpose for the applicant tracking system is to collect 143 00:09:23,538 --> 00:09:30,678 demographics at each step of recruitment and compare it to the census data on 144 00:09:30,678 --> 00:09:37,813 availability of the population within your recruitment area who would be 145 00:09:37,813 --> 00:09:39,823 available for this particular job. 146 00:09:40,163 --> 00:09:44,493 comparing the census data on availability and the actual results. 147 00:09:44,613 --> 00:09:49,523 It can see if there's a statistical disparity between the available 148 00:09:49,523 --> 00:09:54,983 population and the actual population that end up moving through each and 149 00:09:54,983 --> 00:09:58,163 every one of the steps that occur. 150 00:09:58,643 --> 00:10:02,143 And unless you have any questions or comments, We can go ahead and move. 151 00:10:02,553 --> 00:10:03,713 Forward to the first one. 152 00:10:04,073 --> 00:10:06,113 Jenny Arnez: Yeah, let's move forward because I think my questions 153 00:10:06,113 --> 00:10:07,733 you're already going to answer them. 154 00:10:08,733 --> 00:10:10,743 I peeked ahead and I saw the next slide, so I know. 155 00:10:10,813 --> 00:10:11,203 Michael Callen: great. 156 00:10:11,383 --> 00:10:12,373 Jenny Arnez: We're gonna start answering. 157 00:10:12,463 --> 00:10:12,913 Michael Callen: Awesome. 158 00:10:13,013 --> 00:10:13,583 Jenny Arnez: I know it. 159 00:10:13,653 --> 00:10:17,243 Michael Callen: So point number one under the PPTs, which is, nearly everything 160 00:10:17,243 --> 00:10:21,648 in a recruitment is a test is the job posting and people don't really 161 00:10:21,648 --> 00:10:23,868 often think about the job posting. 162 00:10:24,318 --> 00:10:29,088 But it's a vitally important aspect of the human resource function. 163 00:10:29,358 --> 00:10:33,708 So typically what happens is there's some sort of job analysis that's 164 00:10:33,708 --> 00:10:38,018 been done that ferrets out the duties that are performed on the job the 165 00:10:38,018 --> 00:10:42,558 knowledge, skills and abilities that are necessary to perform those duties. 166 00:10:42,768 --> 00:10:47,608 And there's some sort of sorting of what are the fundamental duties 167 00:10:47,608 --> 00:10:50,548 that require knowledge, skills, and abilities that are needed on day one 168 00:10:50,548 --> 00:10:55,678 of the job before there's on the job training or brief orientations So the 169 00:10:55,678 --> 00:11:02,398 job posting is going to have within it text that would include things 170 00:11:02,398 --> 00:11:04,108 like, here's the position of the job. 171 00:11:04,108 --> 00:11:05,878 It might be the pay that's offered. 172 00:11:05,878 --> 00:11:07,888 It might be the days and hours of the job. 173 00:11:08,188 --> 00:11:14,138 It might be minimal qualifications that are necessary to be successful on the job. 174 00:11:14,528 --> 00:11:16,658 And then also desirable qualifications. 175 00:11:16,658 --> 00:11:24,303 We call those MQs and Dqs that are helpful and can maybe position one applicant 176 00:11:24,303 --> 00:11:26,643 ahead of another in terms of the job. 177 00:11:27,003 --> 00:11:30,513 And so when you look at the job posting, two really important 178 00:11:30,513 --> 00:11:36,783 aspects of it are one, where is that job posting located or posted to? 179 00:11:37,263 --> 00:11:43,003 So if there is a venue, a newspaper, or a bulletin board or whatever 180 00:11:43,343 --> 00:11:48,543 that isn't inherently accessible by the same population that is 181 00:11:48,593 --> 00:11:52,493 the available population for the job, then you can literally have 182 00:11:52,493 --> 00:11:54,443 adverse impact right outta the gate. 183 00:11:54,723 --> 00:11:59,413 Let's say that there's some sort of newspaper that is predominantly 184 00:11:59,413 --> 00:12:02,863 read by white people, for instance. 185 00:12:03,193 --> 00:12:08,813 And so if you have this newspaper and you're advertising your job predominantly 186 00:12:08,813 --> 00:12:13,343 to white people and their availability for people of color for this particular 187 00:12:13,343 --> 00:12:17,973 job, is significant but they're not seeing the job posting, then right 188 00:12:17,973 --> 00:12:23,333 out of the gate your demographic of your job applicants could be lacking 189 00:12:23,333 --> 00:12:25,123 as compared to the availability. 190 00:12:25,493 --> 00:12:28,583 The second thing that's really important about it is the content. 191 00:12:28,883 --> 00:12:33,853 And so when you have a job posting, It's vital that before an organization 192 00:12:33,853 --> 00:12:38,693 posts something regarding available job to their website or newspapers 193 00:12:38,693 --> 00:12:42,203 or wherever they post them, that they stop and they do a review. 194 00:12:42,233 --> 00:12:47,543 Let's make sure that the things that we're saying about this job are correct. 195 00:12:47,853 --> 00:12:53,113 Say for instance, you have a job that you're posting for that requires people 196 00:12:53,233 --> 00:12:59,333 to pick up 50 pound bags of concrete and load them and stack them onto a pallet 197 00:12:59,333 --> 00:13:01,403 to get ready to have them shrink wrapped. 198 00:13:02,513 --> 00:13:06,823 So if you go through and you post that but then later you find out that 199 00:13:07,133 --> 00:13:09,608 those bags are no longer 50 pound bags. 200 00:13:09,978 --> 00:13:13,428 The safety people did a review and they found out there was too many people 201 00:13:13,428 --> 00:13:18,228 getting hurt and they realized if they bumped 'em down to 25 pound bags, that 202 00:13:18,228 --> 00:13:22,068 not as many people would get hurt on the job, and therefore they made that change. 203 00:13:22,228 --> 00:13:26,518 If you tell people you have to lift 50 pound bags all day long instead of 204 00:13:26,518 --> 00:13:32,398 25 pound bags, and that's wrong, you have actually created adverse impact 205 00:13:32,678 --> 00:13:34,298 that you otherwise could have avoided. 206 00:13:34,298 --> 00:13:41,928 Understanding where a job posting is located and making sure that the content 207 00:13:42,048 --> 00:13:48,528 in that job posting is correct, is really vital to avoiding adverse impact right out 208 00:13:48,528 --> 00:13:53,088 of the gate that otherwise would not have occurred if you had done things correctly. 209 00:13:53,238 --> 00:13:56,408 And again, to go back to the a ATS, the applicant tracking system, 210 00:13:56,718 --> 00:14:01,158 they're able to go through and know what is the demographic of our job 211 00:14:01,158 --> 00:14:04,098 applicants versus the availability. 212 00:14:04,218 --> 00:14:07,723 And to be able to look at those populations and to determine if 213 00:14:07,723 --> 00:14:11,203 there's any statistic differences between the two groups. 214 00:14:11,293 --> 00:14:12,553 So does that make sense? 215 00:14:12,913 --> 00:14:13,483 Jenny Arnez: It does. 216 00:14:13,533 --> 00:14:19,233 So just as an example, a really basic one, let's say that the job posting says 217 00:14:19,233 --> 00:14:26,093 that the job is, Monday through Friday from seven to four with an hour lunch. 218 00:14:26,633 --> 00:14:31,253 If I were to apply for that job, or I read that job posting, but that's 219 00:14:31,253 --> 00:14:35,663 not my availability, then that in a sense, that's a test because 220 00:14:35,663 --> 00:14:37,753 it filters me out of the process. 221 00:14:38,873 --> 00:14:40,643 Michael Callen: When you have it, you're right, it is a test. 222 00:14:40,693 --> 00:14:45,903 However, It is a test that is valid and consistent with business necessity. 223 00:14:46,463 --> 00:14:52,853 So you may have a test that has adverse impact against protected 224 00:14:52,853 --> 00:14:57,593 groups or non-protected groups, and that doesn't necessarily mean 225 00:14:57,593 --> 00:14:59,153 that adverse impact has occurred. 226 00:14:59,553 --> 00:15:02,823 Or maybe it's an acceptable amount of adverse impact because 227 00:15:03,143 --> 00:15:07,583 the typical example for this is to go back to the concrete bags. 228 00:15:07,873 --> 00:15:11,563 Men are historically stronger than women. 229 00:15:11,563 --> 00:15:17,063 Their body types are different, and they are more well suited to doing 230 00:15:17,063 --> 00:15:19,103 work like lifting concrete bags. 231 00:15:19,318 --> 00:15:23,768 if you gave a physical ability test that ask people to pick up these 25 232 00:15:23,768 --> 00:15:27,268 pound bags or 50 pound bags, and they were to stack them on there, they may 233 00:15:27,268 --> 00:15:32,368 find that the rate at which women fail that test could be nine or 10 times 234 00:15:32,368 --> 00:15:34,558 the rate at which men fail that test. 235 00:15:34,648 --> 00:15:36,988 So that in itself is adverse impact. 236 00:15:37,288 --> 00:15:41,998 However, the test is a simulation of the job. 237 00:15:41,998 --> 00:15:46,218 And if you cannot complete the test, then it's very likely to assume 238 00:15:46,218 --> 00:15:47,868 that you cannot complete the job. 239 00:15:48,108 --> 00:15:51,098 And so that's where that issue of validation comes into play. 240 00:15:51,408 --> 00:15:56,248 So on one hand or one one side of the shop, we want to make sure that 241 00:15:56,308 --> 00:16:01,438 we avoid adverse impact wherever we can avoid adverse impact. 242 00:16:01,738 --> 00:16:05,728 But on the other side of the shop, the testing side of the shop, we go into that 243 00:16:05,728 --> 00:16:10,438 knowing that sometimes there are tests that are valid and they're consistent 244 00:16:10,438 --> 00:16:16,378 with business necessity that will either over the life of the test, during one 245 00:16:16,378 --> 00:16:18,688 recruitment, during a year of recruiting, 246 00:16:18,988 --> 00:16:23,458 Inevitably, you may find that there is some adverse impact that occurs, but 247 00:16:23,458 --> 00:16:28,078 if your test is valid and consistent with business necessity, then you are 248 00:16:28,078 --> 00:16:32,578 accept it is an acceptable process to go through and to do that testing. 249 00:16:32,638 --> 00:16:36,778 And that's really a whole nother side of this particular issue 250 00:16:36,778 --> 00:16:38,218 we're talking about today. 251 00:16:38,498 --> 00:16:41,968 Which probably, I think we've explored it in a prior podcast where 252 00:16:41,968 --> 00:16:44,968 we talked more about validation, but we might want to dig into it again. 253 00:16:45,018 --> 00:16:45,678 Great question. 254 00:16:45,678 --> 00:16:46,188 Thank you. 255 00:16:46,548 --> 00:16:47,658 Jenny Arnez: Yeah, thank you. 256 00:16:48,258 --> 00:16:48,828 Should I move on? 257 00:16:49,668 --> 00:16:50,343 Michael Callen: Yeah, absolutely. 258 00:16:52,408 --> 00:16:55,048 So the second point is the job application. 259 00:16:55,408 --> 00:16:59,858 And people often don't even think about this as being a test. 260 00:17:00,198 --> 00:17:05,428 But job applications some of them require very minimal information, 261 00:17:05,428 --> 00:17:08,218 but some require more information. 262 00:17:08,488 --> 00:17:13,188 And sometimes the information that is collected or the way that the 263 00:17:13,188 --> 00:17:17,808 information is being requested can result in adverse impact. 264 00:17:17,938 --> 00:17:24,558 One of the things that can happen, just for an example, is it may be an 265 00:17:24,558 --> 00:17:28,728 issue where somebody is asking on a job application if you have college 266 00:17:28,728 --> 00:17:36,108 degree or if you have a high school diploma, and those questions for a 267 00:17:36,108 --> 00:17:41,148 particular job may result in adverse impact against a protected group. 268 00:17:41,688 --> 00:17:46,518 And so the question becomes do, why are you asking that question? 269 00:17:46,768 --> 00:17:50,458 If you, we go back to the job where you know the person is 270 00:17:50,458 --> 00:17:52,828 gonna be stacking concrete bags. 271 00:17:53,008 --> 00:17:57,108 What about a high school diploma Makes that an appropriate question? 272 00:17:57,108 --> 00:18:03,108 And then if you ask that question and you end up in a disparity of job applicants 273 00:18:03,108 --> 00:18:06,938 versus availability, now all of a sudden, you've caused adverse impact. 274 00:18:07,238 --> 00:18:12,818 So you want to be really cognizant of and analytical about the content 275 00:18:12,818 --> 00:18:16,388 that is on the job application, and you want to make sure that you're not 276 00:18:16,388 --> 00:18:19,538 asking things that are unnecessary. 277 00:18:19,938 --> 00:18:25,758 Very often people have asked questions regarding how far 278 00:18:25,758 --> 00:18:27,768 are you located from work? 279 00:18:28,198 --> 00:18:33,628 The reason being that they may decide that the people who live closer to the 280 00:18:33,628 --> 00:18:39,498 office are less likely to be late on the job or have issues getting into work. 281 00:18:39,828 --> 00:18:44,858 And so what starts off as, maybe a well-meaning reason depending on where the 282 00:18:44,858 --> 00:18:50,968 work is located, it could end up causing adverse impact if the location is located 283 00:18:50,968 --> 00:18:55,838 way out in the suburbs where you may have less people of color versus the inner city 284 00:18:55,838 --> 00:18:57,728 where you may have more people of color. 285 00:18:58,008 --> 00:19:03,568 And this is again, just an example, by asking that question and trying to not 286 00:19:03,568 --> 00:19:08,508 call people in to become applicants moving further on into the process, 287 00:19:08,598 --> 00:19:10,578 again, you may cause adverse impact. 288 00:19:10,698 --> 00:19:14,628 And so think about the questions that are being asked. 289 00:19:14,868 --> 00:19:18,928 And even if you have good well-meaning reasons the fact that somebody has 290 00:19:18,928 --> 00:19:24,068 to commute 30 miles to get into a job is not a good reason to not 291 00:19:24,068 --> 00:19:27,398 allow them to continue to become an applicant and then to move on 292 00:19:27,518 --> 00:19:29,438 to becoming a candidate for hire. 293 00:19:29,798 --> 00:19:35,018 And I would reference just the Bay area of California, how many people there 294 00:19:35,378 --> 00:19:41,028 commute, two hours a day from 60 or more miles, and it's hundreds of thousands 295 00:19:41,028 --> 00:19:42,648 of people that do that probably. 296 00:19:42,978 --> 00:19:47,708 Jenny Arnez: So we've looked at job posting and job application, 297 00:19:48,418 --> 00:19:49,768 so the third one is tests. 298 00:19:50,768 --> 00:19:51,098 Michael Callen: Yeah. 299 00:19:51,098 --> 00:19:54,918 So this is the easy one because this is what everybody's expecting. 300 00:19:54,968 --> 00:20:01,878 These are the skill, ability, knowledge personal characteristics, personality, 301 00:20:01,878 --> 00:20:08,118 situational judgment, all of the kinds of tests that people might use in 302 00:20:08,118 --> 00:20:14,008 order to differentiate among applicants to determine who should be moved on 303 00:20:14,008 --> 00:20:15,508 to the next step in the recruitment. 304 00:20:15,868 --> 00:20:18,618 And in fact, when they say they're not testing this is 305 00:20:18,618 --> 00:20:20,718 what they say they're not using. 306 00:20:21,158 --> 00:20:25,308 And so to that end, on the latter part of this meeting today, we'll 307 00:20:25,308 --> 00:20:30,228 talk more about why it is that they need to consider using tests because 308 00:20:30,228 --> 00:20:33,708 there are really good reasons, compelling reasons why that's the case. 309 00:20:34,428 --> 00:20:34,708 Jenny Arnez: Okay. 310 00:20:35,733 --> 00:20:38,553 So our next one is background check. 311 00:20:40,023 --> 00:20:44,923 Michael Callen: Okay, so background checks are tests, and if you do 312 00:20:44,923 --> 00:20:48,733 background checks, some people are going to pass and some people are gonna fail. 313 00:20:48,893 --> 00:20:51,763 And when you go through your applicant tracking system, you want to stop 314 00:20:51,763 --> 00:20:54,833 and you want to look and you want to find out, what's going on with 315 00:20:54,833 --> 00:20:57,568 your demographics and your metrics. 316 00:20:57,568 --> 00:20:59,248 And you want to be aware of that. 317 00:20:59,728 --> 00:21:04,198 But again, it comes down to the validity aspect. 318 00:21:04,198 --> 00:21:05,638 So if you are. 319 00:21:05,998 --> 00:21:09,598 Bringing somebody in, why are you doing a background check? 320 00:21:09,598 --> 00:21:12,698 Maybe you do background checks for everybody because, there's 321 00:21:12,698 --> 00:21:15,138 security or merchandise or whatever. 322 00:21:15,138 --> 00:21:16,338 It's public safety. 323 00:21:16,438 --> 00:21:19,608 There can be really good reasons why background checks are used, 324 00:21:19,758 --> 00:21:23,508 but you want to make sure that you are applying those universally. 325 00:21:23,688 --> 00:21:27,708 Don't test people for this position for background checks if you're not gonna 326 00:21:27,708 --> 00:21:32,958 test these people over in this other position if they are in the same realm. 327 00:21:33,008 --> 00:21:35,468 And I want to differentiate there 'cause there could be a little confusion. 328 00:21:35,468 --> 00:21:40,428 Let's say you're hiring the cash carriers that drive the armored cars 329 00:21:40,428 --> 00:21:43,748 and carry, money into, the banks. 330 00:21:44,068 --> 00:21:46,378 You may need to do background checks on all those people. 331 00:21:46,378 --> 00:21:50,398 It doesn't necessarily mean that you need to do a background check for 332 00:21:50,398 --> 00:21:54,508 admin assistance who work in the office who aren't around the cash at all. 333 00:21:55,318 --> 00:22:00,633 However, if you have for instance, the entry level worker that would be 334 00:22:00,633 --> 00:22:04,683 the armed guard and the supervisor who would be the armed guard, those are two 335 00:22:04,683 --> 00:22:09,143 different positions, you should use the background checks on both of those sets 336 00:22:09,143 --> 00:22:11,453 of people so you're applying it equally. 337 00:22:12,293 --> 00:22:13,793 Jenny Arnez: Okay, so we have credit check. 338 00:22:14,513 --> 00:22:15,323 Michael Callen: Yeah, credit checks. 339 00:22:15,323 --> 00:22:16,073 Those are tests. 340 00:22:16,073 --> 00:22:20,473 Sometimes jobs require a credit check for whatever reasons, maybe 341 00:22:20,473 --> 00:22:23,733 they want to make sure that people aren't financially compromised so 342 00:22:23,733 --> 00:22:25,383 somebody could take advantage of them. 343 00:22:25,533 --> 00:22:28,313 This is very common for a prison guard for instance. 344 00:22:28,553 --> 00:22:32,543 You want to make sure that you don't have an extraordinary amount of debt. 345 00:22:32,573 --> 00:22:36,613 Police officers anybody who's in a situation where they're 346 00:22:36,613 --> 00:22:40,163 dealing with members of the public and being in a bad financial 347 00:22:40,163 --> 00:22:42,423 situation could put them at risk. 348 00:22:42,423 --> 00:22:44,553 That's something that happens and that is a test. 349 00:22:45,133 --> 00:22:45,423 Jenny Arnez: Okay. 350 00:22:46,733 --> 00:22:48,528 Then we have a telephone interview. 351 00:22:49,248 --> 00:22:49,488 Michael Callen: Yeah. 352 00:22:49,488 --> 00:22:51,318 So that might be a pre-interview. 353 00:22:51,368 --> 00:22:56,348 And if you are talking to people and some people survive the process and 354 00:22:56,348 --> 00:22:59,148 are moved forward and other people aren't, that's a test as well. 355 00:22:59,198 --> 00:22:59,488 Jenny Arnez: Okay. 356 00:22:59,788 --> 00:23:01,533 And then an in-person interview, 357 00:23:02,103 --> 00:23:05,113 Michael Callen: Obviously, this is one of the biggest ones, it 358 00:23:05,113 --> 00:23:07,153 often is a very subjective process. 359 00:23:07,153 --> 00:23:11,473 Sometimes people do structured interviews and there are less subjective, but 360 00:23:11,473 --> 00:23:15,533 there's a certain amount of subjectivity when people are talking to somebody, 361 00:23:15,533 --> 00:23:19,253 they're asking questions and then they're rating or making decisions 362 00:23:19,253 --> 00:23:22,723 upon the responses that people give to each of those questions. 363 00:23:22,903 --> 00:23:25,213 But it's a test absolutely, positively. 364 00:23:25,483 --> 00:23:29,743 And I would imagine that nearly a hundred percent of the people who 365 00:23:29,743 --> 00:23:34,933 aren't using the traditional tests in point C are doing in interviews. 366 00:23:35,483 --> 00:23:40,313 They're not just hiring people outright from a job application, and 367 00:23:40,313 --> 00:23:43,993 so they are testing people whether, they'd like to think so or not. 368 00:23:44,533 --> 00:23:46,933 Jenny Arnez: Then we have our physical ability tests. 369 00:23:47,543 --> 00:23:51,953 Michael Callen: Physical ability tests are something that can be done upfront. 370 00:23:52,203 --> 00:23:52,863 Physicals. 371 00:23:52,863 --> 00:23:57,483 Those are typically considered post offer testing process. 372 00:23:57,753 --> 00:24:02,133 And you can't really dig down deeply until you've offered 373 00:24:02,133 --> 00:24:04,713 somebody a job offer for hire. 374 00:24:04,963 --> 00:24:08,203 That's where you can actually get down and send somebody to a doctor. 375 00:24:08,383 --> 00:24:10,743 And a doctor could go through and look and see, do you have any 376 00:24:10,743 --> 00:24:14,793 musculoskeletal issues that might preclude you from performing on the job? 377 00:24:14,853 --> 00:24:18,113 And at that point, they can rescind the offer and move forward. 378 00:24:18,163 --> 00:24:20,413 Jenny Arnez: And then we have psychological screening. 379 00:24:21,343 --> 00:24:21,523 Michael Callen: Yeah. 380 00:24:21,523 --> 00:24:26,573 Not a lot of positions use this, but there are certain positions, 381 00:24:26,573 --> 00:24:31,213 emergency services, dispatcher, obviously police, probably fire where 382 00:24:31,213 --> 00:24:32,623 they're doing a psych screening. 383 00:24:32,623 --> 00:24:34,813 They're looking for abnormal personality. 384 00:24:35,123 --> 00:24:39,063 when you have people that are working in the emergency services with the 385 00:24:39,063 --> 00:24:43,933 public or with a confined population and those things are tests as well. 386 00:24:44,528 --> 00:24:44,818 Jenny Arnez: Okay. 387 00:24:45,403 --> 00:24:48,153 I think our last, training or academy. 388 00:24:49,128 --> 00:24:52,068 Michael Callen: Yeah, so some positions, once you get hired, you 389 00:24:52,068 --> 00:24:57,108 move immediately into a training program or an academy, and you go 390 00:24:57,108 --> 00:25:02,988 through that process and you have to traditionally graduate from that process. 391 00:25:03,348 --> 00:25:07,368 They'll call it different terms, but if some people make it through 392 00:25:07,368 --> 00:25:10,758 and some people don't make it through, that also is a test. 393 00:25:11,028 --> 00:25:16,158 And maybe some people don't have all of these that they're offering, 394 00:25:16,158 --> 00:25:18,298 but everybody has some of these. 395 00:25:18,568 --> 00:25:23,908 And so even if you're not using traditional tests, you're gonna be 396 00:25:23,908 --> 00:25:28,558 using some of these items somewhere along the way, and you are testing 397 00:25:28,558 --> 00:25:30,728 because these are all, PPTs. 398 00:25:30,728 --> 00:25:35,708 These are all practices, procedures, or tests that are determining whether 399 00:25:35,708 --> 00:25:40,478 or not a human being is moving on in the recruitment process. 400 00:25:41,708 --> 00:25:45,208 Jenny Arnez: Yeah I would think most positions would at least do 401 00:25:45,208 --> 00:25:49,818 a job posting B, job, application, and then that interview. 402 00:25:50,538 --> 00:25:50,838 Michael Callen: Yeah. 403 00:25:51,448 --> 00:25:52,943 Jenny Arnez: Yeah, that's really helpful. 404 00:25:53,693 --> 00:25:53,873 Michael Callen: Yeah. 405 00:25:53,913 --> 00:25:56,103 That's three tests that they're moving through. 406 00:25:56,283 --> 00:26:01,083 Again, like every other PPT, you want to make sure that it's valid and 407 00:26:01,083 --> 00:26:02,823 consistent with business necessity. 408 00:26:03,003 --> 00:26:05,403 Are we asking for things that we shouldn't ask for? 409 00:26:05,703 --> 00:26:09,273 You should be looking at the applicant tracking data to make sure that there 410 00:26:09,273 --> 00:26:15,123 isn't any sort of step along the way that's causing persons to fail. 411 00:26:15,393 --> 00:26:21,183 And it's probably important to to talk about adverse impact and disparate impact. 412 00:26:21,573 --> 00:26:29,088 Adverse impact is a aspect of the statistical disparity 413 00:26:29,118 --> 00:26:31,248 that is non not intentional. 414 00:26:31,708 --> 00:26:34,408 And that's usually what happens when there's adverse impact. 415 00:26:34,688 --> 00:26:38,798 Somebody will inadvertently post a job where it says you gotta lift a 416 00:26:38,798 --> 00:26:42,728 bag that's heavier than the bag that you have to actually lift on the job. 417 00:26:43,088 --> 00:26:47,888 And that would be adverse impact and it's unintentional adverse impact. 418 00:26:48,368 --> 00:26:53,498 But one of the main reasons why you want to go through and do this is 419 00:26:53,498 --> 00:26:59,548 that you want to make sure that there isn't disparate impact that's in play. 420 00:26:59,918 --> 00:27:05,198 When you have a person who is in human resources, such as a recruiter who's 421 00:27:05,198 --> 00:27:10,358 making decisions, there's a lot of authority within that one human being. 422 00:27:10,608 --> 00:27:16,458 if you have somebody who is not of a proper mindset who's making decisions, 423 00:27:16,458 --> 00:27:21,028 it could be that they are making decisions that are based upon invalid 424 00:27:21,028 --> 00:27:25,318 selection criteria that could be adversely impacting women or people 425 00:27:25,318 --> 00:27:30,568 of color or other protected groups in a way that's really darn insidious. 426 00:27:30,718 --> 00:27:33,498 And again, that's where we have these applicant tracking 427 00:27:33,498 --> 00:27:35,658 systems is to make sure. 428 00:27:35,758 --> 00:27:36,328 No 429 00:27:36,748 --> 00:27:40,918 organization or leaders of an organization want to wake up someday 430 00:27:41,068 --> 00:27:45,238 and read about themselves in a newspaper because they've got some rogue HR 431 00:27:45,238 --> 00:27:50,198 person who's out there throwing away all the job applications from people 432 00:27:50,198 --> 00:27:52,688 with Hispanic surnames, for instance. 433 00:27:52,878 --> 00:27:56,088 It's just, that's just plain evil and wrong. 434 00:27:56,088 --> 00:27:59,938 despite what's happening in the news right now that's wrong and 435 00:27:59,938 --> 00:28:04,018 it's always wrong and, that's something that should never happen. 436 00:28:04,298 --> 00:28:08,288 People should never be denied an opportunity where they otherwise 437 00:28:08,288 --> 00:28:12,248 should be given the opportunity to step through this process and become, 438 00:28:12,518 --> 00:28:16,658 go from an applicant to a candidate, potentially to an employee if you fail 439 00:28:16,658 --> 00:28:20,308 for a reason that's valid and consistent with business necessity along the way. 440 00:28:20,368 --> 00:28:21,538 That's all fine and dandy. 441 00:28:21,538 --> 00:28:25,488 So just important to understand that difference between adverse 442 00:28:25,493 --> 00:28:26,958 impact and disparate impact. 443 00:28:27,828 --> 00:28:28,128 Jenny Arnez: Yeah. 444 00:28:28,128 --> 00:28:28,728 Thank you. 445 00:28:29,103 --> 00:28:29,393 Sure. 446 00:28:29,398 --> 00:28:34,738 So we're talking about a response to people say, yeah, we don't test. 447 00:28:35,218 --> 00:28:37,198 And so that's what this podcast is about. 448 00:28:37,198 --> 00:28:42,418 So your first point here is that nearly everything in a recruitment is a test, 449 00:28:42,418 --> 00:28:45,628 and you list several here, A through J. 450 00:28:45,773 --> 00:28:50,213 And now we're going to move on to the next main point that is 451 00:28:50,303 --> 00:28:53,783 subjective versus objective measures. 452 00:28:54,263 --> 00:28:58,093 Michael Callen: First of all, yeah, like you said, we've got these PPTs and whether 453 00:28:58,093 --> 00:29:02,113 you're testing or not testing that's something that you want to be aware of. 454 00:29:02,553 --> 00:29:11,503 The second thing is if you are not testing using tests like what TestGenius offers, 455 00:29:11,553 --> 00:29:17,043 we have a process built into our software that either allows you to validate the 456 00:29:17,043 --> 00:29:22,143 software, or we provide documentation that allows you to transport that validity over 457 00:29:22,143 --> 00:29:24,153 to the position that you're using it for. 458 00:29:24,663 --> 00:29:30,553 So if you're not using those kinds of concrete measures then what are 459 00:29:30,763 --> 00:29:33,043 you using to make your selections? 460 00:29:33,373 --> 00:29:37,263 And that's where you go to the other items that you pointed out. 461 00:29:37,263 --> 00:29:40,443 You've got your job posting, you got your job application, and then it 462 00:29:40,443 --> 00:29:43,173 comes down to the in-person interview. 463 00:29:43,473 --> 00:29:47,073 Now, your typical applicant isn't gonna be thinking about 464 00:29:47,498 --> 00:29:51,458 the job posting or the application, maybe unless they encounter something 465 00:29:51,458 --> 00:29:54,938 along the way that makes 'em go, wow, I don't really feel good about this. 466 00:29:55,058 --> 00:29:56,408 Then they might ask a question. 467 00:29:56,838 --> 00:30:02,758 But if you are applying for a job and you have passed through the first two 468 00:30:02,758 --> 00:30:07,228 steps, the posting in the application, and you get invited in for an interview 469 00:30:07,378 --> 00:30:12,898 and you know that you have the requisite skills, abilities, maybe experiences 470 00:30:12,898 --> 00:30:18,448 that are necessary for this particular job, and you sit down and you do a job 471 00:30:18,448 --> 00:30:23,548 interview with someone and you don't get called back for something and you 472 00:30:23,548 --> 00:30:29,138 feel like that interview went well then that causes an undue amount of focus on 473 00:30:29,138 --> 00:30:31,388 that subjective measure, that interview. 474 00:30:31,878 --> 00:30:38,218 And so really this has to do with just how we're situating a person in terms 475 00:30:38,218 --> 00:30:40,288 of how they feel about the process. 476 00:30:40,618 --> 00:30:45,598 And so if you back it up one step and you say, prior to the interview, 477 00:30:46,588 --> 00:30:51,778 I go and I take skill and ability tests, and those skill and ability 478 00:30:51,778 --> 00:30:53,129 tests are face valid to me. 479 00:30:53,338 --> 00:30:57,468 That is they feel like the kind of thing that I would be doing on 480 00:30:57,468 --> 00:30:59,298 this job that I've applied for. 481 00:30:59,488 --> 00:31:07,648 And I feel like I don't do well on those tests and I don't get advanced 482 00:31:07,648 --> 00:31:12,418 to the next step, then I probably am gonna feel pretty well about that. 483 00:31:12,468 --> 00:31:17,743 If I am skilled enable, and nobody gives me a test. 484 00:31:17,743 --> 00:31:21,883 And I sit down and I talk to somebody and they interview me, and they're 485 00:31:21,883 --> 00:31:27,253 asking me questions that don't really make me feel like they're job related. 486 00:31:27,593 --> 00:31:29,963 They're just sorting out whether or not they like me. 487 00:31:30,393 --> 00:31:35,193 Then it's really important for organizations recruiters, HR staff 488 00:31:35,193 --> 00:31:40,623 in particular, to own that and to say, is that a really, good 489 00:31:40,683 --> 00:31:42,423 process that we have in place? 490 00:31:42,473 --> 00:31:47,553 It comes down to the point where you want to make sure that your job applicants 491 00:31:47,763 --> 00:31:50,493 feel as though the process was fair. 492 00:31:50,793 --> 00:31:54,813 And if they should have had a good chance to move forward, you know 493 00:31:54,813 --> 00:31:56,433 that the odds are that they will. 494 00:31:56,433 --> 00:32:01,833 And if they didn't have a good opportunity to move forward, it's for a good reason. 495 00:32:01,833 --> 00:32:06,603 And so that's where having objective measures in place is really valuable. 496 00:32:07,863 --> 00:32:08,193 Jenny Arnez: Okay. 497 00:32:08,243 --> 00:32:12,833 I don't think it's a stretch to say that an interview is a subjective measure. 498 00:32:13,443 --> 00:32:17,913 Anybody who's gone in for an interview knows that because we always prepare. 499 00:32:18,558 --> 00:32:19,428 And right. 500 00:32:19,428 --> 00:32:23,418 We make sure our hair looks good, we'd make sure we present well. 501 00:32:23,418 --> 00:32:26,178 We want people to feel good in our presence. 502 00:32:26,278 --> 00:32:32,338 Is there is there a place for subjective measures in the hiring process? 503 00:32:33,448 --> 00:32:34,543 Michael Callen: Yeah, absolutely. 504 00:32:34,748 --> 00:32:36,968 And that's another really great question, Jenny. 505 00:32:37,328 --> 00:32:40,928 I'm gonna talk a little bit more about this in the fifth point. 506 00:32:41,268 --> 00:32:51,648 But there are functions that a human can provide that are way 507 00:32:51,648 --> 00:32:57,178 beyond that a computer can provide at least at this particular point. 508 00:32:57,598 --> 00:33:03,428 And so one of the reasons why we want to test is that the recruitment 509 00:33:03,428 --> 00:33:09,698 process does require almost always that there are subjective measures, 510 00:33:09,698 --> 00:33:13,368 like the interview that you're talking about where people have to go through 511 00:33:13,368 --> 00:33:19,708 and make a determination that's based upon, some set of human components. 512 00:33:19,708 --> 00:33:23,248 And it might come down to, I feel that they won't do a good job, 513 00:33:23,368 --> 00:33:25,138 or I feel that they won't fit in. 514 00:33:25,448 --> 00:33:26,678 Our test can't feel. 515 00:33:27,228 --> 00:33:31,488 And so if that is a valid and valuable part of the process, 516 00:33:31,488 --> 00:33:35,218 that's something that a human can provide and probably a human alone. 517 00:33:35,218 --> 00:33:37,078 And so that's fine. 518 00:33:37,078 --> 00:33:43,193 It's absolutely fine, but you want to do it in a positive proportion so that 519 00:33:43,473 --> 00:33:44,793 there's a good feeling about that. 520 00:33:46,323 --> 00:33:47,313 Jenny Arnez: And consistency 521 00:33:47,313 --> 00:33:47,403 Michael Callen: that 522 00:33:48,093 --> 00:33:48,813 Jenny Arnez: Consistently. 523 00:33:48,813 --> 00:33:51,423 The way you interview one person is the same way that 524 00:33:51,423 --> 00:33:52,923 you interview the next person. 525 00:33:53,263 --> 00:33:56,083 Michael Callen: Interviews or any other subjective measures, you want 526 00:33:56,083 --> 00:34:01,248 to use the same measures against that everyone who's participating in, that 527 00:34:01,248 --> 00:34:03,228 recruitment absolutely, positively. 528 00:34:03,438 --> 00:34:08,728 And as soon as you vary from that process, you may have adversely impacted 529 00:34:08,778 --> 00:34:11,428 somebody to their extreme disadvantage. 530 00:34:12,808 --> 00:34:13,408 Jenny Arnez: Thanks Mike. 531 00:34:13,888 --> 00:34:14,248 Sure. 532 00:34:14,548 --> 00:34:14,789 That's good. 533 00:34:14,789 --> 00:34:15,043 Let's move on. 534 00:34:15,591 --> 00:34:17,001 So you've got optics. 535 00:34:17,501 --> 00:34:18,431 Michael Callen: Yeah, optics. 536 00:34:18,461 --> 00:34:22,541 This isn't something that people thought about 30 years ago, but now 537 00:34:22,931 --> 00:34:25,901 you know, we have this thing called social media and everybody's a 538 00:34:25,901 --> 00:34:28,571 critic and everybody has an opinion. 539 00:34:28,571 --> 00:34:30,611 And those opinions aren't always valid. 540 00:34:31,071 --> 00:34:35,181 But the degree to which you can control the valid opinions you 541 00:34:35,181 --> 00:34:37,011 want to be thinking about optics. 542 00:34:37,341 --> 00:34:44,571 Almost everybody who has a recruitment is recruiting to their own constituency. 543 00:34:44,781 --> 00:34:49,041 In some cases, it's their own customers or their own market. 544 00:34:49,401 --> 00:34:53,681 And If you are not offered a job or you are not advanced through 545 00:34:53,801 --> 00:34:58,861 a particular process with an organization, the HR should be thinking 546 00:34:58,861 --> 00:35:00,451 about what are the optics of that. 547 00:35:00,931 --> 00:35:05,491 And again, it goes back to the prior point when you're using objective measures. 548 00:35:05,671 --> 00:35:10,821 And if I go through and I'm asked to, take a Word test, an Excel test, 549 00:35:10,821 --> 00:35:16,191 and a PowerPoint test, and I struggle with those tests, I'm going to feel 550 00:35:16,191 --> 00:35:20,301 as though I probably didn't deserve to be moved on to the next step. 551 00:35:20,301 --> 00:35:22,881 And if I don't get moved on to the next step, I'm not gonna 552 00:35:22,881 --> 00:35:24,051 feel really bad about it. 553 00:35:24,051 --> 00:35:27,291 I'm gonna, I might feel bad because I was looking forward to the job, 554 00:35:27,501 --> 00:35:32,001 but I'm not going to blame the employer or the process for that. 555 00:35:32,271 --> 00:35:35,031 Now, you're always going to have somebody who has a problem and 556 00:35:35,031 --> 00:35:39,311 who's gonna complain, but that's also a part of social media. 557 00:35:39,311 --> 00:35:45,811 But when you have 99 good comments and one bad comment, think about Yelp. 558 00:35:45,811 --> 00:35:47,641 You're gonna go, you're gonna look for a restaurant. 559 00:35:47,641 --> 00:35:49,951 Somebody might have four stars. 560 00:35:50,131 --> 00:35:53,521 The last review might be a terrible review about service or something. 561 00:35:53,671 --> 00:35:59,221 But if there's 95 reviews behind it, you're willing to forego that one and 562 00:35:59,221 --> 00:36:01,381 then take in the opinions of the others. 563 00:36:01,561 --> 00:36:04,921 And I think that's a really important part of the recruitment 564 00:36:04,921 --> 00:36:10,581 process that often gets forgotten in terms of looking at these PPTs. 565 00:36:11,926 --> 00:36:13,546 Jenny Arnez: Yeah, I totally agree. 566 00:36:13,861 --> 00:36:16,971 I think now more than ever, every business at some level is 567 00:36:16,971 --> 00:36:19,071 a public business or potentially 568 00:36:19,071 --> 00:36:20,661 Michael Callen: if you're private sector, you're public. 569 00:36:20,661 --> 00:36:22,371 And if you're public sector, you're public. 570 00:36:22,371 --> 00:36:22,521 Yeah. 571 00:36:22,531 --> 00:36:26,401 There's not anybody who really isn't unless you're top secret. 572 00:36:26,711 --> 00:36:28,931 But then they're not gonna be talking about you probably. 573 00:36:28,981 --> 00:36:29,366 Jenny Arnez: All right. 574 00:36:29,366 --> 00:36:31,166 So now we're at work sample tests. 575 00:36:32,441 --> 00:36:32,891 Michael Callen: Okay. 576 00:36:33,221 --> 00:36:38,831 So understanding how work sample tests fit into the recruitment is very important. 577 00:36:39,371 --> 00:36:44,671 Our TestGenius tests, for instance, are the kind of tests where you are 578 00:36:44,671 --> 00:36:49,821 asked to do something but the majority of the canned test within TestGenius 579 00:36:50,221 --> 00:36:51,841 are work sample tests, which are 580 00:36:52,506 --> 00:36:56,526 going to have an applicant sit down at a computer and perform a 581 00:36:56,526 --> 00:37:00,576 function that would be similar to a function that's performed on the job. 582 00:37:00,726 --> 00:37:05,726 Now there's two really important advantages of giving work sample tests. 583 00:37:06,276 --> 00:37:12,036 The first one is that, again, if I go and I take these tests and I don't 584 00:37:12,036 --> 00:37:17,406 do well on the tests, I feel like it's okay that I lost the opportunity 585 00:37:17,406 --> 00:37:19,446 to move forward in the process. 586 00:37:19,556 --> 00:37:20,876 I feel good about that. 587 00:37:21,306 --> 00:37:25,596 But the other aspect of this is that they can serve these kinds of work 588 00:37:25,596 --> 00:37:29,886 sample tests can serve as something called a realistic job preview. 589 00:37:30,361 --> 00:37:35,321 One of the best examples that we have for that is in our CritiCall testing. 590 00:37:35,321 --> 00:37:41,271 We have this whole brand of tests for emergency services dispatcher, 591 00:37:41,451 --> 00:37:47,331 police, fire, 9 1 1 EMS, utility, ambulance, all those environments where 592 00:37:47,596 --> 00:37:51,286 people have to get phone calls from the public or from other 593 00:37:51,286 --> 00:37:52,726 people that they work with. 594 00:37:52,946 --> 00:37:57,476 Where issues are reported, it's a very high stress situation. 595 00:37:57,626 --> 00:38:00,086 They have to be multitasking and they have to be able to go 596 00:38:00,086 --> 00:38:01,726 through and work through that job. 597 00:38:01,906 --> 00:38:08,296 And so if you have a good work sample test that puts someone who does not 598 00:38:08,296 --> 00:38:14,386 possess the skills and abilities to, for instance, multitask, the test itself is 599 00:38:14,386 --> 00:38:17,596 going to make you feel uncomfortable. 600 00:38:17,746 --> 00:38:22,456 Now, I have taken this test a hundred times since 1999 when we were first 601 00:38:22,456 --> 00:38:27,316 developing it, and I am not a multitasker, and I know exactly what's gonna happen 602 00:38:27,316 --> 00:38:32,866 in the test, and yet it makes me feel very bad about that job making me 603 00:38:32,866 --> 00:38:34,846 realize that I'm not a multitasker, 604 00:38:34,996 --> 00:38:36,946 I really don't want that job to begin with. 605 00:38:36,946 --> 00:38:41,856 And so what I will do is I will self deselect from the 606 00:38:41,856 --> 00:38:42,966 recruit recruitment process. 607 00:38:43,146 --> 00:38:45,966 I will say, this job really isn't for me. 608 00:38:46,206 --> 00:38:49,416 And, maybe I wouldn't have been moved on, but I'm not gonna 609 00:38:49,416 --> 00:38:51,096 pursue this job any longer. 610 00:38:51,576 --> 00:38:55,946 But again, this is the most important part of this point. 611 00:38:56,036 --> 00:39:02,476 And this is the thing that people who don't do testing don't understand is 612 00:39:02,476 --> 00:39:11,631 that this self deselection process is so good for everybody, okay? 613 00:39:11,741 --> 00:39:13,811 Obviously it's good for the organization. 614 00:39:13,961 --> 00:39:20,591 You didn't hire, train onboard and have fail somebody who should never 615 00:39:20,591 --> 00:39:22,481 have gotten the job to begin with. 616 00:39:22,751 --> 00:39:25,311 That's a really tragic issue. 617 00:39:25,411 --> 00:39:29,101 Not only, for that particular person, but for all the people that they work with. 618 00:39:29,261 --> 00:39:31,331 They've been waiting for this person to get hired. 619 00:39:31,481 --> 00:39:33,371 They're excited, they get to know this person. 620 00:39:33,491 --> 00:39:35,801 They come in and they fail, and then they get dismissed. 621 00:39:35,851 --> 00:39:36,961 That's a big problem. 622 00:39:37,511 --> 00:39:41,651 But again, to go back to this optics situation, it's 623 00:39:41,651 --> 00:39:43,091 really good for the person. 624 00:39:43,481 --> 00:39:47,891 Juxtapose the person who took a work sample test failed and realized the 625 00:39:47,891 --> 00:39:53,981 job wasn't for them as compared to the person who got hired, onboarded, 626 00:39:54,101 --> 00:39:57,881 trained and then went on to fail on the job and get dismissed. 627 00:39:58,091 --> 00:40:03,251 How does that person feel in scenario B versus the person in scenario A? 628 00:40:03,401 --> 00:40:08,651 And that's a hundred percent avoidable by going through and making sure that you 629 00:40:08,651 --> 00:40:15,411 have a good testing procedure that's in place wherever possible, exposing these 630 00:40:15,411 --> 00:40:22,371 job applicants to a realistic job review, giving them an out in the process, giving 631 00:40:22,371 --> 00:40:24,831 you an out that they also would accept. 632 00:40:24,941 --> 00:40:29,251 So it's a really super important point for HR departments to keep in mind. 633 00:40:30,436 --> 00:40:30,856 Jenny Arnez: Oh yeah. 634 00:40:30,856 --> 00:40:35,686 And as you're talking about the work sample tests, I think how important it 635 00:40:35,686 --> 00:40:40,326 is to make sure that you're selecting that your tests are valid, right? 636 00:40:40,376 --> 00:40:47,756 If you have me testing on Excel advanced skills, but that job, the job I'm 637 00:40:47,756 --> 00:40:52,076 applying for doesn't require it, then that's not a realistic job preview. 638 00:40:52,586 --> 00:40:56,156 Michael Callen: No, and that I think is the crux of why it is that certain 639 00:40:56,156 --> 00:41:00,236 people will decide to not test, or one of the reasons why they will decide to 640 00:41:00,236 --> 00:41:05,286 not test is that, they're, they have a concern that the test won't be valid. 641 00:41:05,286 --> 00:41:08,666 And that's a really good concern not to overuse the term valid, 642 00:41:08,666 --> 00:41:10,076 but it's a valid concern. 643 00:41:10,296 --> 00:41:16,396 We have tools that are in place that allow organizations to ensure very 644 00:41:16,396 --> 00:41:21,556 quickly and easily that a test is valid and consistent with business necessity. 645 00:41:21,556 --> 00:41:27,836 There are certain maxims that are in place regarding human resources that determine 646 00:41:28,076 --> 00:41:30,056 what kind of tests should be used on the job. 647 00:41:30,061 --> 00:41:35,281 If you're just using Excel at a basic level and you give an advanced Excel 648 00:41:35,281 --> 00:41:37,981 test, you have tested beyond the job. 649 00:41:38,251 --> 00:41:39,331 You can't do that. 650 00:41:39,691 --> 00:41:43,291 If you have to lift 25 pounds of bags of concrete. 651 00:41:43,531 --> 00:41:46,111 You can't say you're only gonna be testing for five minutes, so I'm gonna 652 00:41:46,111 --> 00:41:48,061 have you lift 50 pound bags of concrete. 653 00:41:48,361 --> 00:41:49,411 You cannot do that. 654 00:41:49,411 --> 00:41:51,241 It's illegal to do that. 655 00:41:51,461 --> 00:41:58,621 And the Dial case is a case where the Dial corporation tested on a line job at a 656 00:41:58,621 --> 00:42:01,801 level beyond the level of the job itself. 657 00:42:01,801 --> 00:42:04,771 And they ended up having to pay a lot of money out to 658 00:42:04,771 --> 00:42:06,361 plaintiffs because they did that. 659 00:42:06,361 --> 00:42:09,181 And so it's just one of those areas that's clearly wrong. 660 00:42:09,261 --> 00:42:15,341 So it's each organization's responsibility to make sure that their tests are valid 661 00:42:15,341 --> 00:42:17,191 and consistent with business necessity. 662 00:42:17,501 --> 00:42:21,281 When you look at our tests, we provide a tool that allow you to do that. 663 00:42:21,281 --> 00:42:26,261 It'll literally generate a 30 plus page validation report that's for 664 00:42:26,261 --> 00:42:31,701 this particular position at your organization, complete with, a table 665 00:42:31,701 --> 00:42:35,811 that tells you of these seven tests, here's the ones that are valid, and 666 00:42:35,811 --> 00:42:39,711 here's some suggested cutoff scores that would show competence in this area. 667 00:42:39,921 --> 00:42:43,131 So we're literally walking you down the primrose path allowing 668 00:42:43,131 --> 00:42:44,481 you to do this in a safe way. 669 00:42:44,781 --> 00:42:50,211 Now, look at all those other PPTs, you're making decisions at those levels. 670 00:42:50,331 --> 00:42:58,221 What do you have in place that allows you to make sure that your interview happens 671 00:42:58,221 --> 00:43:00,351 in a valid and business consistent way? 672 00:43:01,131 --> 00:43:06,111 What makes sure that your job application is done that way, or any 673 00:43:06,111 --> 00:43:09,951 of the other PPTs that we listed, or any other ones that we didn't list. 674 00:43:10,001 --> 00:43:13,631 You are already doing testing and you should be concerned about your validity. 675 00:43:13,781 --> 00:43:18,041 And by the way, if you use concrete testing or even soft skills or behavioral 676 00:43:18,041 --> 00:43:23,471 testing, we give you the tools that are necessary to show that this is 677 00:43:23,471 --> 00:43:26,771 valid and consistent with business necessity, either in establishing 678 00:43:26,771 --> 00:43:30,461 it locally for that position or in transporting the criterion validity 679 00:43:30,701 --> 00:43:32,501 through a transportability report. 680 00:43:32,501 --> 00:43:35,681 Jenny Arnez: Really to flip that over, what you're saying is 681 00:43:36,221 --> 00:43:39,641 somebody says, we don't test because we're concerned about validity. 682 00:43:39,641 --> 00:43:43,091 You're saying that's exactly why you need to test. 683 00:43:43,611 --> 00:43:45,521 because of your concern for validity. 684 00:43:45,571 --> 00:43:48,901 Michael Callen: And when somebody's standing at your table at a conference, 685 00:43:49,151 --> 00:43:51,341 it's hard to tell them that. 686 00:43:51,551 --> 00:43:56,831 It's hard to say to them look, you're wrong. 687 00:43:59,121 --> 00:44:00,141 Jenny Arnez: Maybe they're listening today. 688 00:44:00,301 --> 00:44:01,081 Michael Callen: Nobody likes to hear that. 689 00:44:01,081 --> 00:44:02,041 But that's the point. 690 00:44:02,041 --> 00:44:06,301 And so what we try to do is we try to have, a little bit of an elevator 691 00:44:06,301 --> 00:44:09,841 pitch ready to be able to try to get 'em to think about it differently. 692 00:44:10,121 --> 00:44:14,981 And these are, really good reasons as to why they want to do that, for sure. 693 00:44:15,501 --> 00:44:18,351 Jenny Arnez: So let's hit that fifth point -paper trail. 694 00:44:19,641 --> 00:44:19,941 Michael Callen: Yeah. 695 00:44:19,941 --> 00:44:25,371 The paper trail is a really important aspect of this issue within recruitment 696 00:44:25,561 --> 00:44:29,081 Let me tell you a story that will highlight the point and then we can 697 00:44:29,081 --> 00:44:30,611 get a little more granular with it. 698 00:44:31,001 --> 00:44:37,481 Again, we do a lot of work with dispatch centers and we're at a lot of conferences 699 00:44:37,481 --> 00:44:43,211 in that space, and I have over the years, many times, had the same conversation 700 00:44:43,211 --> 00:44:48,901 with different center directors and they will tell me that, I could sit down 701 00:44:48,961 --> 00:44:54,031 with a person and talk to 'em for five or 10 minutes and know whether or not 702 00:44:54,031 --> 00:44:55,681 they're gonna be successful on the job. 703 00:44:56,461 --> 00:45:00,481 I know absolutely positively that they're telling the truth. 704 00:45:00,901 --> 00:45:03,661 They have been around the game long enough. 705 00:45:03,911 --> 00:45:05,951 They know how people operate. 706 00:45:05,951 --> 00:45:09,371 They know enough about the human nature as it pertains to this particular 707 00:45:09,371 --> 00:45:14,051 position, and they could have a brief conversation with somebody and 708 00:45:14,051 --> 00:45:16,961 determine whether or not somebody was gonna be successful on the job. 709 00:45:17,661 --> 00:45:18,501 However. 710 00:45:18,566 --> 00:45:21,326 Even though they would be successful in that regard. 711 00:45:21,356 --> 00:45:28,076 The problem there goes back to the optics aspect is I sit down, I have an 712 00:45:28,076 --> 00:45:32,486 interview with somebody and somebody decides through a short conversation 713 00:45:32,486 --> 00:45:34,616 with me that I can't multitask. 714 00:45:35,166 --> 00:45:39,036 People talk to me all the time while I'm texting, therefore I can multitask. 715 00:45:39,166 --> 00:45:42,106 That's not the same thing, but in their mind it is the same thing. 716 00:45:42,196 --> 00:45:47,086 And so if I have a problem with that recruitment process, the best solution 717 00:45:47,086 --> 00:45:51,346 for that is having some sort of paper trail that documents the process. 718 00:45:51,616 --> 00:45:55,846 And so what the same people who talk to us at conferences and they 719 00:45:55,846 --> 00:46:00,016 say, I can sort out whether or not somebody's gonna be successful or not. 720 00:46:00,166 --> 00:46:04,336 We'll finish that conversation by saying, but I choose to not to do that. 721 00:46:04,846 --> 00:46:10,056 First of all, I don't want to spend my valuable time talking to people 722 00:46:10,176 --> 00:46:13,836 who don't have the skill and ability necessary for success on the job. 723 00:46:14,226 --> 00:46:18,486 But more importantly, they understand this paper trail aspect and they 724 00:46:18,486 --> 00:46:23,286 understand that if somebody doesn't feel good about that part of the 725 00:46:23,286 --> 00:46:27,226 recruitment, it's probably the most highly subjective thing that we've talked 726 00:46:27,226 --> 00:46:29,866 about this entire conversation here. 727 00:46:30,046 --> 00:46:33,406 But if somebody goes through that particular process and they're weeded 728 00:46:33,406 --> 00:46:39,826 out to some subjectivity in five or ten minutes, there isn't any paper trail that 729 00:46:39,826 --> 00:46:47,116 allows people to show that the process was valid and to have the degree of 730 00:46:47,116 --> 00:46:48,946 defensibility that you would want to have. 731 00:46:49,096 --> 00:46:55,856 And so if you go back and you say, this center director is able to sort out 732 00:46:55,856 --> 00:47:00,446 whether or not people have the skills or abilities, then you can take that one step 733 00:47:00,981 --> 00:47:05,381 back prior, and you can say why don't we just give tests for those 734 00:47:05,381 --> 00:47:10,421 skills and abilities and personal characteristics, and let's make sure in 735 00:47:10,421 --> 00:47:13,211 a concrete way that they possess them. 736 00:47:13,216 --> 00:47:16,366 So the center director isn't put into that situation. 737 00:47:16,416 --> 00:47:18,126 Having a 738 00:47:18,741 --> 00:47:24,931 testing process in place is a really important aspect because there is 739 00:47:24,931 --> 00:47:30,751 documentation all along the way as to what decisions were made and in most 740 00:47:30,751 --> 00:47:33,121 cases why those decisions were made. 741 00:47:33,551 --> 00:47:36,551 And if the test is gonna screen out the greatest number of 742 00:47:36,551 --> 00:47:42,021 applicants you want that to be the most concrete and most documented 743 00:47:42,231 --> 00:47:44,601 step of the whole entire process. 744 00:47:44,841 --> 00:47:49,071 And so that's the reason why we want to talk about the paper trail and make sure 745 00:47:49,071 --> 00:47:51,261 that there's a good paper trail in place. 746 00:47:52,401 --> 00:47:54,171 Jenny Arnez: So when you say paper trail, are you really 747 00:47:54,171 --> 00:47:55,396 talking about defensibility? 748 00:47:56,486 --> 00:48:00,516 Michael Callen: The paper trail is the evidence that shows it is defensible. 749 00:48:00,726 --> 00:48:04,446 So the defensibility is the scrutiny of the paper trail. 750 00:48:04,686 --> 00:48:09,726 But if you have a job posting and people have reviewed that. 751 00:48:10,686 --> 00:48:12,066 Somebody signed off on it. 752 00:48:12,126 --> 00:48:14,466 That's documentation, that's part of the paper trail. 753 00:48:14,806 --> 00:48:20,506 If you have a job application, and every year as a process, HR is 754 00:48:20,506 --> 00:48:25,006 reviewing their application to make sure that their application is asking 755 00:48:25,006 --> 00:48:28,306 the things that should be asking and not asking the things that doesn't, 756 00:48:28,756 --> 00:48:30,616 then that's a part of the paper trail. 757 00:48:30,746 --> 00:48:32,306 Hey, your application is bad. 758 00:48:32,316 --> 00:48:33,606 We review it annually. 759 00:48:34,146 --> 00:48:34,716 Okay. 760 00:48:34,716 --> 00:48:36,576 That's documentation in your favor. 761 00:48:36,886 --> 00:48:39,826 If you go through and you have tests, are they valid and 762 00:48:39,826 --> 00:48:41,536 consistent with business necessity? 763 00:48:41,876 --> 00:48:47,126 Our tests can validated by a group of subject matter experts in case of 764 00:48:47,276 --> 00:48:53,066 content validation in virtually the same amount of time as it takes one applicant 765 00:48:53,336 --> 00:48:55,466 to go through and take those tests. 766 00:48:55,676 --> 00:48:57,056 There's a couple of survey items. 767 00:48:57,056 --> 00:49:00,476 It takes a few more minutes, but essentially they go through that process. 768 00:49:00,526 --> 00:49:03,126 You choose a select hand. 769 00:49:03,486 --> 00:49:08,106 Chosen pool of subject matter experts that are good performers on the job. 770 00:49:08,256 --> 00:49:11,496 You ask them to go through and take these tests in validation mode. 771 00:49:11,646 --> 00:49:13,836 They take the test, they answer the survey, and the 772 00:49:13,836 --> 00:49:15,426 validation report is delivered. 773 00:49:15,816 --> 00:49:19,276 And that's a really great bit of paper for the paper trail. 774 00:49:19,276 --> 00:49:21,766 Somebody says I don't think that test was valid. 775 00:49:22,966 --> 00:49:25,036 Email 'em a copy of the validation report. 776 00:49:25,186 --> 00:49:26,896 Here's our validation report. 777 00:49:27,146 --> 00:49:27,386 You don't 778 00:49:27,386 --> 00:49:28,226 think it was valid? 779 00:49:28,226 --> 00:49:31,106 Here's 35 pages of documentation that shows why. 780 00:49:31,326 --> 00:49:35,166 And in the instances where we've been asked for something like 781 00:49:35,166 --> 00:49:39,546 that by or a client will ask us, Hey, this is being challenged. 782 00:49:39,546 --> 00:49:40,326 What should we do? 783 00:49:40,596 --> 00:49:44,706 And I say, send off the plaintiff's attorney a copy of the validation report 784 00:49:44,886 --> 00:49:47,616 and they send it off to 'em and we don't ever hear back from 'em again. 785 00:49:47,776 --> 00:49:51,346 It just evaporates because you can say, I don't think it's valid, but 786 00:49:51,346 --> 00:49:53,506 here's 35 pages that say otherwise. 787 00:49:53,716 --> 00:50:00,686 So having this paper trail in place and especially not having some sort of 788 00:50:00,686 --> 00:50:06,126 bottleneck that somebody experiences that doesn't have a paper trail to 789 00:50:06,126 --> 00:50:11,286 justify it, wherein x percentage of the people are screened out and y 790 00:50:11,286 --> 00:50:16,116 percentage of the people continue forward is a valuable situation to have. 791 00:50:16,366 --> 00:50:20,566 What allows you to support your defensibility of the hiring process. 792 00:50:21,916 --> 00:50:25,449 Jenny Arnez: So we're talking about responding to the comment that we 793 00:50:25,449 --> 00:50:27,369 hear it sometimes at trade shows. 794 00:50:27,969 --> 00:50:29,469 Yeah, we don't test. 795 00:50:30,519 --> 00:50:36,699 And I'm wondering, Mike, do people ever express to you, yeah, we don't test 796 00:50:36,699 --> 00:50:41,799 because you've already talked about validity, it's not valid, but do we, do 797 00:50:41,799 --> 00:50:46,859 they ever say, we don't test because it's too time consuming or it's too expensive? 798 00:50:46,909 --> 00:50:48,829 how do you respond to those comments? 799 00:50:50,609 --> 00:50:53,719 Michael Callen: Yeah, they do definitely say that one of the most 800 00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:56,299 frustrating things in our particular 801 00:50:56,779 --> 00:51:02,939 realm is to be talking to somebody about this process. 802 00:51:02,939 --> 00:51:08,459 Especially for instance, our process where you're able to test people at home 803 00:51:08,459 --> 00:51:12,359 in their bunny slippers in the evening rather than having to call them in. 804 00:51:12,479 --> 00:51:16,619 So your staff is not involved in the testing process other than 805 00:51:16,709 --> 00:51:18,449 setting the testing process up. 806 00:51:18,569 --> 00:51:22,579 And so when we're talking to somebody who could be using this process to 807 00:51:22,579 --> 00:51:26,959 their benefit, and they say to us, I just don't have time to look at this 808 00:51:26,959 --> 00:51:32,364 right now because I'm busy recruiting people that aren't gonna stick because 809 00:51:32,419 --> 00:51:35,989 I don't know whether they're skilled and able, it's very frustrating for us. 810 00:51:35,989 --> 00:51:42,529 We're always trying to help people understand that the process is 811 00:51:42,529 --> 00:51:45,679 automating things that human beings would be doing otherwise. 812 00:51:45,979 --> 00:51:51,459 And so there is a valid concern to say adding testing, may slow 813 00:51:51,459 --> 00:51:56,539 down the recruitment process just enough that we'll lose somebody who 814 00:51:56,539 --> 00:51:58,039 otherwise would've been a good hire. 815 00:51:58,159 --> 00:52:00,139 And it's important for us to hire people. 816 00:52:00,859 --> 00:52:04,909 But the flip side of that is if you're hiring the wrong people and you're 817 00:52:04,909 --> 00:52:08,449 turning them over, you're hiring the wrong people and you're having to 818 00:52:08,449 --> 00:52:13,639 recruit people using a bad, broken process to replace the person that 819 00:52:13,639 --> 00:52:15,469 you didn't get right to begin with. 820 00:52:15,559 --> 00:52:19,859 And again, being able to test people in their bunny slippers is a really important 821 00:52:19,859 --> 00:52:26,339 aspect of a recruitment because you get an applicant in, as soon as somebody says 822 00:52:26,579 --> 00:52:30,809 this is a qualified applicant, you send them a test link probably before you could 823 00:52:30,809 --> 00:52:32,639 have scheduled them for a phone interview. 824 00:52:32,819 --> 00:52:36,809 You can have them test and you can determine whether or not they 825 00:52:36,809 --> 00:52:42,634 would be subject to or should be subject to a telephone interview. 826 00:52:43,474 --> 00:52:45,694 What was the second aspect of that you asked about? 827 00:52:46,604 --> 00:52:49,004 Jenny Arnez: Money on the financial investment. 828 00:52:49,484 --> 00:52:49,784 Michael Callen: Yeah. 829 00:52:50,184 --> 00:52:53,454 Jenny Arnez: Is there a benefit financially to implementing testing? 830 00:52:54,174 --> 00:52:54,714 Michael Callen: Absolutely. 831 00:52:54,714 --> 00:52:55,554 Positively. 832 00:52:55,654 --> 00:53:03,094 The main benefit is in going through the process and avoiding hiring 833 00:53:03,094 --> 00:53:04,594 somebody who doesn't work out. 834 00:53:04,594 --> 00:53:07,974 And, there's a hard cost to that recruitment process. 835 00:53:08,094 --> 00:53:09,744 There's a hard cost to the onboarding. 836 00:53:09,954 --> 00:53:11,634 There's a hard cost to the training. 837 00:53:11,944 --> 00:53:18,454 But maybe the hardest, most challenging cost is regarding the chemistry of the 838 00:53:18,454 --> 00:53:20,494 workers that you put that person into. 839 00:53:20,674 --> 00:53:24,614 It's gonna take, what, two, three weeks, a month before somebody 840 00:53:24,614 --> 00:53:27,944 realizes, okay, we've got 'em all trained up and they can't do the job. 841 00:53:28,394 --> 00:53:36,044 The effect upon the chemistry and the engagement of your 842 00:53:36,044 --> 00:53:38,744 existing employees is palpable. 843 00:53:39,074 --> 00:53:41,324 And you want to avoid that at all costs. 844 00:53:41,324 --> 00:53:44,324 These people are the people who are there for you. 845 00:53:44,324 --> 00:53:47,744 They're the people who are working there for you, and you want to 846 00:53:47,894 --> 00:53:49,994 hire people to help them out. 847 00:53:50,044 --> 00:53:55,634 It's not a concrete number of dollars, but what one of our reps, Nick Brown 848 00:53:55,634 --> 00:53:59,884 will say, at the conferences, when somebody comes up and asks, what is it? 849 00:53:59,884 --> 00:54:01,864 have you ever received a 850 00:54:02,449 --> 00:54:06,719 resume from somebody who says they have experience using Excel, and then when 851 00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:10,149 they sit down to use Excel, they're putting numbers in the cells and 852 00:54:10,149 --> 00:54:13,669 pulling out a calculator to sum them because they don't know that Excel has 853 00:54:13,789 --> 00:54:15,379 functions that add those up for you? 854 00:54:15,379 --> 00:54:18,889 Everybody laughs but then they all say, yes, I know that person. 855 00:54:18,939 --> 00:54:20,769 I've run into that person before. 856 00:54:21,099 --> 00:54:24,839 And so you want to encounter that situation ahead of time. 857 00:54:25,019 --> 00:54:28,769 You don't want to encounter that situation at the end of the process. 858 00:54:29,189 --> 00:54:30,689 So very important. 859 00:54:31,259 --> 00:54:31,589 Jenny Arnez: Okay. 860 00:54:31,589 --> 00:54:35,849 So I'm looking back, thinking back of our conversation, what you 861 00:54:35,849 --> 00:54:41,399 shared over the last several minutes and from an employer standpoint, 862 00:54:41,449 --> 00:54:46,194 testing helps to maximize my people's time. 863 00:54:46,414 --> 00:54:47,044 Michael Callen: absolutely. 864 00:54:47,044 --> 00:54:48,874 Jenny Arnez: We get the right people in the interview. 865 00:54:49,384 --> 00:54:50,854 Michael Callen: Let me say and effectiveness. 866 00:54:51,314 --> 00:54:52,414 Jenny Arnez: And effectiveness, yeah. 867 00:54:52,474 --> 00:54:54,244 Michael Callen: Because it's not just the time, it's the 868 00:54:54,244 --> 00:54:55,684 time times the effectiveness 869 00:54:55,734 --> 00:54:59,154 Jenny Arnez: So it helps maximize and help our people's time, helps them to be 870 00:54:59,154 --> 00:55:01,314 more effective, maximize effectiveness. 871 00:55:02,274 --> 00:55:07,164 Also, you've talked about the financial- you hire and then you keep your people. 872 00:55:07,164 --> 00:55:12,264 You don't have to repost, re-interview and start the process all over. 873 00:55:12,474 --> 00:55:17,124 Ideally having testing in place, valid testing in place helps 874 00:55:17,124 --> 00:55:19,824 you to hire the right people, have the best fit for the job. 875 00:55:20,334 --> 00:55:20,524 Michael Callen: Yeah. 876 00:55:20,524 --> 00:55:23,644 And again, it goes back to your existing workforce as well. 877 00:55:23,674 --> 00:55:29,284 That engagement and job satisfaction of the people who are already trained up in 878 00:55:29,284 --> 00:55:34,804 performing well on the job is really your most important aspect of human resources. 879 00:55:34,864 --> 00:55:39,134 So you want to protect those people as best you can and make sure that 880 00:55:39,164 --> 00:55:43,494 they are effective on the job and that you're not doing anything 881 00:55:43,704 --> 00:55:45,474 that makes their job more difficult 882 00:55:45,624 --> 00:55:45,834 Jenny Arnez: Yeah. 883 00:55:45,834 --> 00:55:49,719 And plus testing helps you to have a valid process too. 884 00:55:50,139 --> 00:55:50,589 Michael Callen: Yes. 885 00:55:50,639 --> 00:55:55,239 a valid and consistent necessity with business necessity is a technical 886 00:55:55,329 --> 00:55:58,269 definition of the technical term valid. 887 00:55:58,599 --> 00:56:02,529 But it doesn't mean that there isn't, that you shouldn't consider 888 00:56:02,529 --> 00:56:05,109 valid as a colloquial term as well. 889 00:56:05,439 --> 00:56:13,449 You want to make sure that all of the processes in your recruitment are valid. 890 00:56:13,449 --> 00:56:16,909 That word valid comes from, the root meaning true. 891 00:56:17,509 --> 00:56:21,889 And, truth is the basis of good human resources. 892 00:56:21,889 --> 00:56:26,339 And yeah, absolutely, positively, you want to make sure that all of that is in place. 893 00:56:28,289 --> 00:56:30,419 Jenny Arnez: So as we look at winding down. 894 00:56:31,274 --> 00:56:34,634 Any summary comments or statements you want to make, Mike? 895 00:56:37,099 --> 00:56:41,239 Michael Callen: I guess really it just comes back to the original question 896 00:56:41,599 --> 00:56:48,399 is people really seriously should be considering this testing issue. 897 00:56:48,399 --> 00:56:52,789 If you're already doing testing then you want to be thinking about all the 898 00:56:52,789 --> 00:56:58,369 PT PPTs that are in place, and you want to make sure that they are all valid 899 00:56:58,369 --> 00:57:00,079 and consistent with business necessity. 900 00:57:00,269 --> 00:57:04,079 Don't put an obstacle in the way of your applicants that isn't a 901 00:57:04,079 --> 00:57:08,849 valid obstacle, because that's to everyone's mutual detriment. 902 00:57:09,279 --> 00:57:13,419 To the people who come up to me at conferences and say, we don't do 903 00:57:13,419 --> 00:57:16,539 this because of A, B, C, or D reason. 904 00:57:16,999 --> 00:57:20,119 I just highly recommend that you reconsider that. 905 00:57:20,549 --> 00:57:25,079 I think in light of the things that we've discussed today, it would be 906 00:57:25,079 --> 00:57:28,079 really hard for someone to maintain 907 00:57:28,934 --> 00:57:31,784 that position as being valid. 908 00:57:31,944 --> 00:57:34,354 Because, I don't think it really is. 909 00:57:34,414 --> 00:57:35,594 That's my opinion. 910 00:57:35,594 --> 00:57:37,754 You said a disclaimer right at the front. 911 00:57:38,004 --> 00:57:41,914 But I think there's a lot of good concrete reasons as to why that's the case. 912 00:57:43,244 --> 00:57:44,264 Jenny Arnez: Thank you, Mike. 913 00:57:44,264 --> 00:57:51,324 This has been very helpful as always, and listener or viewer, if you ever have 914 00:57:51,324 --> 00:57:55,524 any questions about any of our podcasts, feel free to reach out to us here. 915 00:57:55,944 --> 00:58:00,594 We have contact information on the page where you're viewing this video 916 00:58:00,594 --> 00:58:04,224 or listening to this video, and we sure are grateful that you joined us today. 917 00:58:04,914 --> 00:58:05,484 Michael Callen: Absolutely. 918 00:58:05,484 --> 00:58:07,854 Thank you so much for your time, and thank you, Jenny. 919 00:58:07,904 --> 00:58:08,204 Jenny Arnez: Yeah. 920 00:58:08,204 --> 00:58:08,744 Thank you. 921 00:58:09,224 --> 00:58:09,554 Michael Callen: Bye-bye. 922 00:58:11,478 --> 00:58:14,378 Narrator: Thanks for tuning in to Testing, Testing 1-2-3. 923 00:58:14,598 --> 00:58:17,148 Brought to you by TestGenius and Biddle Consulting Group. 924 00:58:17,958 --> 00:58:20,898 Visit our website at testgenius.com for more information.