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Rudy, what an absolute pleasure to talk to
you.

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It's so good to meet again.

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I am very excited to talk to you today.

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I want to start with an easy question,
okay?

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We're going to keep the hard questions for
later.

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What, if you had to think back to your,
let's say, professional history, what is

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the most proudest moment that you would
think back to?

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I think the most proudest moment was when
I was promoted within Swatch to take over

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the worldwide marketing position as
marketing director.

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Being able to really, after being
completely responsible for all watch

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products, be able to market it into not
only the European and North American

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region, but especially the Asian one
because that market is really different.

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and it gave me this kind of an edge to
really prove myself.

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And I think that is still one of the
highlights out of my career, out of my

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entrepreneurial career.

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wow.

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I have so many questions to ask.

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OK, so I'm a big fan of Swatch.

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So first of all, tell me a little bit
about the, let's say, what's your favorite

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thing about the company?

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The non -confirmistic way, so I have to go
back a little bit in time.

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Mr.

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Hayek Sr., who unfortunately passed away,
I think he was a brilliant mind.

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After I did my masters, I learned a lot
from him from a practical angle.

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And what he was able to do is being on the
one hand the entrepreneur, but

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nevertheless being somebody that kept
the...

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creativity and the mindset of an eight
-year -old and that combination was for me

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brilliant so I was very lucky to spend a
lot of time with him and the development

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of the concept of Swatch where the art,
the music, the sports came into the wrist

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of people as a second watch because that
is how the name was created the second

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watch on your wrist because a lot of
people used it for going on vacation.

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using it for a fun time.

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And that was something for me where, yeah,
it was mind -blowing.

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We have to bring the audience into this.

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So I'm a Swatch fan, so of course I know,
but tell us the history of Swatch from a

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perspective of what was the innovation
there, right?

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Because there was something very new and
special about Swatch when it came to the

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market.

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Yeah, I mean the innovation of Swatch was
that, well, I would say the Swiss watch,

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let's say industry was under heavy attack
from, especially at that time, the Asian

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competition like Psycho, like Citizen.

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It needed to revamp.

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They were not connecting anymore to young
people.

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And the innovation about the Swatch
concept was that the movement with a

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superb accuracy has only 51 parts.

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And that was a breakthrough, which was
later, later celebrated as we see it still

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now, System 51, which is an automatic
watch, that is highlighting, let's say,

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the roots of the brand.

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And being a non -confirmistic brand that
was really like a canvas for people to do

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art on, like I said before, and do
expressions which even went into MoMA.

51
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And that was something unheard of so all
the big artists in the beginning like Kiki

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Picasso These kind of people did special
editions So the special edition part was

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always a big part of the success of swatch
Because we were in the beginning never

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able to fulfill the demand it didn't
matter I mean all watches are produced in

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Switzerland, but there was no way that we
could

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cover the demand that was coming from all
territories.

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So it was more or less in the beginning
like, we need to distribute those products

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and we need to find a quick way to
accelerate our production capacity.

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So you come into this market with
incredible demand.

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That's every sales and marketers dream,
right?

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So, you know, that's great.

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But there were challenges that came with
that.

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Tell me about the challenges that come
with incredible demand and how you met

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those.

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I think the biggest challenge we had, what
I recall from that time, was that you need

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to keep a fine balance between people
being enthusiastic and people getting

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disappointed.

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Because the major issue is that if you get
disappointed, you lose interest.

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And that was the most difficult task we
had at that time.

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is how to distribute in a smart way to
keep the momentum going and on the back

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end to make sure that production and
logistics would be able to cover the gap.

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So obviously, this is a commercial
commodity product, or I don't know if

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commodity is offensive or not of a word to
use, but this was potentially large scale

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distribution.

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You must have made mistakes on the way.

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Yes, you make mistakes.

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The mistakes are...

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one of those.

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Tell us about what it was.

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And I told you that the hard questions
would come.

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So tell us, like, look, we're looking for
a happy ending here.

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So tell us the challenge.

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Tell us what brought of it.

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This I know, this I know.

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But in the micro, in the story, tell us
about what the challenge was, what brought

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and led to the challenge.

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And then how you overcame the challenge is
really the interesting.

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I think the thing with Swatch was always
we tried to expand the horizon, to do the

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impossible.

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And with doing the impossible, you come to
a point where you have to say, my gosh, is

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this going to be able to produce on a
large scale?

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Can we homologate the products?

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Because of course we are dealing with...

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high quality standards.

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We are a brand that is still produced in
Switzerland.

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There is nothing done outside of the
country.

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And I think that was one of the things
where every time we were thinking about,

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okay, a new product line, we had the
normal gent in the beginning.

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We had the lady, the small one.

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We had the automatic, then the chronograph
came.

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Then we came with a diver's watch.

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Then we came with a bigger diver's watch.

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And these are things where...

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Yeah, you see as you go what is finally
the really demanded product and where are

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we going from there?

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And I think we were able in let's say the
90s and the early 2000s to really do this

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fine balancing of what is the ideal
situation of a collection.

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because we were more or less like a
fashion label.

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We came out with new collections, spring
-summer collections, fall -winter

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collections, doing the catalogs and still
trying to be relevant not only for Europe,

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but also for the other parts of the world.

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And the taste is not everywhere the same.

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And there's where you learn the hard way
to some part, like, this is working here,

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but this is not working there.

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So we need to find an alternative.

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We need to come up with things that are
going to fulfill, let's say, the demand in

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that market.

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And that was the...

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Yeah.

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SKUs or products inside of the lineup
didn't work.

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No, because let's say you have on the one
hand you have the creatives.

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And I remember in my time as a product
manager, I had to be the critical voice

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without, let's say, being too negative
towards a designer because they put their

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heart and blood in it.

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So to somebody you have to say, hmm, I
don't know if this is going to work.

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Perhaps we should revise this or we should
add that.

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But

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On the other hand, we are not the
designers.

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So it was always an interesting process.

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And what we had, we always had the input
from the markets when the first initial

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presentation of the so -called mock -ups,
which were the handmade prototypes of

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every watch.

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When that collection was shaped, we always
had big, intense debates.

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concerning is this the final collection?

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What do we need to change?

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And to some part this was like hardcore.

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Hardcore discussions, heavy discussions,
but at the end always a great result and a

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great product.

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Did focus groups play a part and how much
did you listen to the focus groups?

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And then after that, a follow -up
question, were the focus groups right or

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were they sometimes wrong?

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Focus groups, when it comes to design, we
get in people that give their comments,

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for sure.

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But I think at that time we had a very
capable group of people within the

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countries that could really rate in a very
precise way these products are going to

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sell for my market or not.

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00:10:01,632 --> 00:10:04,342
Because that is what finally the whole
process was.

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The process was you have 120 SKUs in the
collection and every country had to rate

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the products one by one how much volume
they would order.

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And that was a commitment.

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So because we had to pre -produce.

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So it is not like to some part fashion
where you pre -sell a collection and then

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based on that,

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they start buying the fabric, they start
production.

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We had to produce already before launch to
market.

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And that is where we still had, let's say,
a certain percentage of the collection

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that was committed already, especially the
A styles, which are, let's say, from all

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countries, the best sellers.

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We would go in with a very high percentage
of committing final product.

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With the styles we were not sure, we kept
it at, we keep the components in stock,

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but we would not necessarily do the final
production completely.

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And that is how we were able to leverage
and we had with our sister company, ETA,

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which is the production company, they were
able to quickly change one style on the

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production line for another.

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And that was really helpful in the season
because we had already the components

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there.

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And then it was a matter of putting the
dials and the hands and the straps on the

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casings and then you had a finished
product.

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But it is a very complex logistic project
for the people that are working in the

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different factories.

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00:11:50,015 --> 00:11:50,915
That's amazing.

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I mean, I think there's a lot of
commonality now with the mobile phone

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manufacturing process.

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I was deep in that industry, so so many
things that you're saying are like, that's

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obvious, of course.

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But let me change the topic.

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You said that there was these differences
between markets.

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So you talked about the Asian market.

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Tell me about those differences.

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What were the mistakes that were made and
what were the insights that were gained?

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between the two markets.

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00:12:23,485 --> 00:12:30,905
Let's say we always had logically a
heritage that is European based.

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00:12:31,365 --> 00:12:35,945
The design studio was in or is still in
Italy.

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The company is headquartered in
Switzerland.

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And the Asians to some part love it very
colorful.

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00:12:44,565 --> 00:12:51,445
And again, also Asia, you cannot compare
like Japan is the same as China or Hong

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Kong.

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So you have to differentiate.

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And the best way for us was especially
with the long, let's say, term managers we

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00:13:01,968 --> 00:13:06,968
had and very capable people in the
markets, is to really truly listen to

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their inputs.

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00:13:08,088 --> 00:13:11,328
And of course, we don't have a crystal
ball.

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00:13:11,468 --> 00:13:17,868
Even if we truly believe this is going to
sell everywhere, you have your surprises.

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00:13:17,868 --> 00:13:20,891
But in the final end, you learn from...

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those mistakes in a certain way.

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The thing with the Swatch product is,
every season the product looks different.

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With the exception of, let's say, the so
-called basics or never out of style,

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00:13:35,971 --> 00:13:38,171
where you have products that...

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a black watch with a white dial, a classic
one, you don't need to change every

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00:13:42,151 --> 00:13:42,931
season.

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00:13:42,931 --> 00:13:48,211
So that means they will continue to carry
over until we see that there is a decline

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00:13:48,211 --> 00:13:49,435
in demand.

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00:13:49,435 --> 00:13:54,395
and then we have to do something about a
replacement or an update or something that

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goes in a direction like that.

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00:13:57,175 --> 00:14:03,495
But let's say coming back to your
question, we of course, we had in every

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00:14:03,495 --> 00:14:08,295
collection, we had positive and negative
surprises, things where we were believing,

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00:14:08,295 --> 00:14:13,695
wow, this is a masterpiece, this is going
to sell really well.

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00:14:13,695 --> 00:14:17,874
We had things where we had to say, my God,
it doesn't work.

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00:14:18,074 --> 00:14:19,934
But I think that it's life.

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The same experiences like I said I had in
fashion.

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00:14:23,334 --> 00:14:25,734
It's even more volatile.

212
00:14:25,734 --> 00:14:30,914
Because you have much more trends as a
little accessory on your wrist.

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00:14:30,914 --> 00:14:31,922
So yeah.

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00:14:34,655 --> 00:14:38,335
I need to be careful because I could
probably have us talk about swatch the

215
00:14:38,335 --> 00:14:41,935
whole day, but I'm not sure that our
audience is interested in that.

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00:14:41,995 --> 00:14:46,295
So let's and I look, everybody's gone into
like the digital watches.

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00:14:46,295 --> 00:14:47,225
I'm still there.

218
00:14:47,225 --> 00:14:47,525
Right.

219
00:14:47,525 --> 00:14:52,675
That's my I think there's something about
having high quality watch, high quality

220
00:14:52,675 --> 00:14:53,475
shoes.

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00:14:53,475 --> 00:14:56,335
But, you know, that's that's a different
topic for another day.

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00:14:56,335 --> 00:14:58,115
Let me ask you something else.

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00:14:58,115 --> 00:15:02,515
When you think about and not necessarily
in the swatch era, but across your

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00:15:02,515 --> 00:15:04,055
professional career.

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00:15:04,127 --> 00:15:09,463
What is the hardest point that you had
interacting with an employee or a

226
00:15:13,445 --> 00:15:22,465
I think the hardest way is always when
things are not going as smooth.

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00:15:23,425 --> 00:15:27,085
And that is, to my experience, that is
normal.

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00:15:27,085 --> 00:15:33,145
I think if somebody has some kind of
demands, because that is also something

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00:15:33,145 --> 00:15:38,785
where you are confronted with, like people
come and say, hey, I think I'm up for a

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00:15:38,785 --> 00:15:41,714
race or I'm up for this or for that.

231
00:15:42,232 --> 00:15:45,672
It depends how things are framed.

232
00:15:46,272 --> 00:15:49,232
How is the actual situation?

233
00:15:49,232 --> 00:15:53,092
Is that something that indeed is due?

234
00:15:53,092 --> 00:15:57,872
And I think important is that you
stimulate people, that you make sure that

235
00:15:57,872 --> 00:16:00,952
people can develop themselves.

236
00:16:01,412 --> 00:16:10,607
The difficult part starts then when the
objectivity is not completely there.

237
00:16:10,807 --> 00:16:17,747
And then you have to maneuver in a way to
make sure to not demotivate, because that

238
00:16:17,747 --> 00:16:21,747
is definitely you don't want with people
that are performing well, because I'm a

239
00:16:21,747 --> 00:16:28,027
true believer that a team is the backbone
of the success of an organization.

240
00:16:28,027 --> 00:16:30,507
It's not the managers only.

241
00:16:30,507 --> 00:16:36,067
It is how the whole team, like a soccer
team or a sports team is working between

242
00:16:36,067 --> 00:16:38,327
manager and field players.

243
00:16:38,427 --> 00:16:39,471
And...

244
00:16:39,927 --> 00:16:45,167
Let's say you have to some point you have
to find the middle way to make things

245
00:16:45,167 --> 00:16:49,447
nevertheless happen But also you need to
be careful because you need to be fair

246
00:16:49,447 --> 00:16:53,567
towards the others around it because that
person is not alone in your organization

247
00:16:53,567 --> 00:17:02,147
So it is it is not always easy But I think
important is for me always to listen.

248
00:17:02,147 --> 00:17:06,287
What are the arguments the person is
bringing?

249
00:17:07,107 --> 00:17:09,814
Is there is there demand realistic?

250
00:17:09,814 --> 00:17:11,914
Is it fair?

251
00:17:11,914 --> 00:17:14,174
And then you take it from there.

252
00:17:14,174 --> 00:17:19,154
And unfortunately, there is not like a
dictionary where you can pull a book out

253
00:17:19,154 --> 00:17:22,114
of your shelf and say, let me look.

254
00:17:22,114 --> 00:17:23,894
How do I take care of this?

255
00:17:23,894 --> 00:17:25,494
It comes with the years.

256
00:17:25,494 --> 00:17:28,814
And I must say, this is something where...

257
00:17:28,834 --> 00:17:29,741
Yeah.

258
00:17:29,759 --> 00:17:34,759
You alluded to the fact that, and you said
this very like politically, and I

259
00:17:34,759 --> 00:17:38,659
apologize, I'm sick, so I have to take a
little bit of this, but so I don't choke,

260
00:17:38,659 --> 00:17:43,499
but you alluded to the fact that sometimes
the way the employees see themselves and

261
00:17:43,499 --> 00:17:48,359
the way maybe you or the rest of the
company see the employees is not the same.

262
00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:52,639
You said that in like very lightly, with
just a little bit of salt.

263
00:17:52,639 --> 00:17:54,455
Tell me more about that.

264
00:17:54,473 --> 00:18:00,092
Let's say I I think if let's say what I
try to do is to be proactive to be

265
00:18:00,092 --> 00:18:04,413
proactive with my team giving them
feedback during the course of a year

266
00:18:04,413 --> 00:18:09,133
because the performance of an employee is
not measured one time per year at the end

267
00:18:09,133 --> 00:18:10,053
of the year.

268
00:18:10,053 --> 00:18:16,793
This is an ongoing thing and I have
learned throughout the years that if you

269
00:18:16,793 --> 00:18:21,876
have a regular feedback for people a
constructive one.

270
00:18:21,876 --> 00:18:25,466
Because it is not only pointing out
something that's negative.

271
00:18:25,466 --> 00:18:29,976
It is about, okay, where is room for
improvement?

272
00:18:29,996 --> 00:18:36,956
And I must honestly say, if you practice
that really thoroughly and consistently,

273
00:18:36,956 --> 00:18:43,196
at the end of the year, there are not many
differences in how a manager sees things

274
00:18:43,196 --> 00:18:45,896
or how an employee sees things.

275
00:18:45,896 --> 00:18:50,109
But if you have no communication during
the year,

276
00:18:50,131 --> 00:18:54,311
Of course, that is a given potential clash
factor.

277
00:18:54,311 --> 00:18:55,159
Definitely.

278
00:18:55,159 --> 00:18:55,989
is everybody doing?

279
00:18:55,989 --> 00:18:57,269
Is everybody doing what you're saying?

280
00:18:57,269 --> 00:19:02,019
No, everybody's having like a quarterly or
every nobody's doing what you're saying

281
00:19:02,019 --> 00:19:02,199
Rudy.

282
00:19:02,199 --> 00:19:06,739
Like I just need the audience to listen
very carefully because this is special.

283
00:19:06,739 --> 00:19:07,429
This is unique.

284
00:19:07,429 --> 00:19:10,538
This is not something that is common
knowledge.

285
00:19:10,538 --> 00:19:13,599
I have seen this happen again and again
and again.

286
00:19:13,599 --> 00:19:14,929
Great, great, great, great, great.

287
00:19:14,929 --> 00:19:16,049
End of your comms.

288
00:19:16,049 --> 00:19:17,039
shit job.

289
00:19:17,039 --> 00:19:17,439
What?

290
00:19:17,439 --> 00:19:17,989
What happened?

291
00:19:17,989 --> 00:19:18,729
What did I do?

292
00:19:18,729 --> 00:19:20,879
Like, like this is special.

293
00:19:20,879 --> 00:19:21,719
So I want to.

294
00:19:21,719 --> 00:19:23,087
don't understand.

295
00:19:23,679 --> 00:19:26,083
We need a lean into this because this is
really important.

296
00:19:26,083 --> 00:19:27,983
something...

297
00:19:27,983 --> 00:19:34,543
So I think coming back, and you're totally
right, if you give just for people to be

298
00:19:34,543 --> 00:19:39,203
quiet a great, great, great during the
year, and then for whatever reason, you

299
00:19:39,203 --> 00:19:43,443
can be as a manager under pressure from
the next layer on top of you.

300
00:19:43,443 --> 00:19:47,803
And then you have to sell your people
like, hey guys, it was not that great.

301
00:19:47,803 --> 00:19:52,823
But that is not necessarily the problem of
the people, that is the problem of the

302
00:19:52,823 --> 00:19:55,418
person that was giving the wrong signal.

303
00:19:55,442 --> 00:20:03,202
Because disappointment, believe me, is
quicker given as a positive attitude.

304
00:20:03,202 --> 00:20:09,122
So I think you have to be on top of things
and coming back to communication.

305
00:20:09,122 --> 00:20:11,482
Communication can be done personally.

306
00:20:11,482 --> 00:20:13,742
Communication can be done through
meetings.

307
00:20:13,742 --> 00:20:20,662
Communication can be done by monthly
reports where you give already a direction

308
00:20:20,662 --> 00:20:22,542
towards the performance.

309
00:20:22,542 --> 00:20:24,609
Let's take a salesperson.

310
00:20:25,073 --> 00:20:26,853
a store, whatever.

311
00:20:26,853 --> 00:20:29,653
You can say, hey, we have a deviation
there.

312
00:20:29,653 --> 00:20:30,713
What do you think?

313
00:20:30,713 --> 00:20:32,543
Because I think also that is important.

314
00:20:32,543 --> 00:20:38,533
Engage the people in coming up with how
can things be improved?

315
00:20:38,533 --> 00:20:45,353
Because I am too far away to some part
from the things the teams are doing, but I

316
00:20:45,353 --> 00:20:48,233
need to be aware what's going on.

317
00:20:48,233 --> 00:20:53,153
And that is what I've done personally
always, both in fashion and at Swatch.

318
00:20:53,153 --> 00:20:55,185
I'm always in the stores.

319
00:20:55,185 --> 00:21:00,465
Because what is finally important is how
is the consumer thinking about us?

320
00:21:00,465 --> 00:21:04,045
About our brand, about how we treat them?

321
00:21:04,045 --> 00:21:05,045
Are they happy?

322
00:21:05,045 --> 00:21:08,435
Are they leaving without a sale?

323
00:21:08,435 --> 00:21:10,345
And what is the reason?

324
00:21:10,505 --> 00:21:12,785
Were they nevertheless treated well?

325
00:21:12,785 --> 00:21:14,925
Are they going to come back?

326
00:21:14,925 --> 00:21:20,585
And I think these are all factors where we
have to say, hey, we need to pay attention

327
00:21:20,585 --> 00:21:24,225
to those little details to understand the
bigger picture.

328
00:21:24,225 --> 00:21:25,128
And...

329
00:21:25,392 --> 00:21:30,292
to make sure that finally at the end of
the month or end of the quarter or the

330
00:21:30,292 --> 00:21:34,440
year the budgets are met and reached.

331
00:21:34,847 --> 00:21:38,837
no executive in the world that will tell
you that KPIs or CARAs are not important,

332
00:21:38,837 --> 00:21:41,707
but you glanced over something so
important.

333
00:21:41,707 --> 00:21:45,407
I love how you say these incredibly
important things as if it's nothing.

334
00:21:45,667 --> 00:21:52,167
You said in between the lines that there
is an importance of the employees to have

335
00:21:52,167 --> 00:21:57,547
a sense of honesty in regards to their own
performance in the process of reporting.

336
00:21:57,547 --> 00:22:00,095
Tell me more about that and tell me, tell
me.

337
00:22:00,095 --> 00:22:03,495
If you've seen that go terribly wrong,
when they don't do that, tell me about

338
00:22:03,495 --> 00:22:04,875
that too.

339
00:22:04,875 --> 00:22:09,315
Because this is so important to the whole
strategy that you're describing.

340
00:22:12,639 --> 00:22:13,989
me give you one example.

341
00:22:13,989 --> 00:22:20,959
I have to go back a little bit further in
my career, but it was a very interesting

342
00:22:20,959 --> 00:22:24,411
one for me to learn from.

343
00:22:25,039 --> 00:22:30,859
After Swatch I took over because it was a
commercial partner of Swatch.

344
00:22:30,859 --> 00:22:32,839
They did all the telephones for us.

345
00:22:32,839 --> 00:22:38,589
So I was bombarded by the top management
of Siemens.

346
00:22:38,589 --> 00:22:40,439
So Siemens Mobile.

347
00:22:44,819 --> 00:22:46,818
So no, no, no.

348
00:22:46,818 --> 00:22:49,399
No, no, no.

349
00:22:49,399 --> 00:22:51,119
They didn't do anything wrong.

350
00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,500
But it was an interesting thing in
culture.

351
00:22:54,766 --> 00:23:06,366
So I was engaged as senior VP marketing
worldwide, taking care of mobile products

352
00:23:06,366 --> 00:23:08,666
and all telephone products they had.

353
00:23:08,666 --> 00:23:11,686
And our sister company was Networx.

354
00:23:11,926 --> 00:23:21,086
The interesting part was that the
employees were not used to an open kind of

355
00:23:21,086 --> 00:23:22,286
communication.

356
00:23:22,286 --> 00:23:27,746
they couldn't criticize, they couldn't
really tell their opinion because it was

357
00:23:27,746 --> 00:23:31,626
more or less dictated how things should be
done.

358
00:23:31,626 --> 00:23:37,826
Which is fine, but the issue is that
people to a certain extent are stopping to

359
00:23:37,826 --> 00:23:38,826
care.

360
00:23:38,886 --> 00:23:43,686
And that was for me, it was heavy.

361
00:23:43,686 --> 00:23:50,826
It was very heavy because if you
experience something like that, you have a

362
00:23:50,826 --> 00:23:51,532
big...

363
00:23:51,532 --> 00:23:55,192
a big task of keeping the motivation up.

364
00:23:55,192 --> 00:24:01,612
And I think if you can create an
environment of honesty in both ways, I

365
00:24:01,612 --> 00:24:03,462
think that is something that will
flourish.

366
00:24:03,462 --> 00:24:09,592
That is something where people will be
coming to you and expressing their doubts.

367
00:24:09,592 --> 00:24:15,032
If the doubt is objectively correct or
not, it doesn't matter that much.

368
00:24:15,032 --> 00:24:20,332
But at least the person is not punished
for coming and saying something where they

369
00:24:20,332 --> 00:24:21,635
are worried about.

370
00:24:21,931 --> 00:24:26,531
But the alternative would be people don't
come at all.

371
00:24:26,591 --> 00:24:32,671
So, and that means that you are completely
cut off of what is going on in the

372
00:24:32,671 --> 00:24:33,591
organization.

373
00:24:33,591 --> 00:24:41,951
And finally, you have a more difficult
time to make sure that you are able to

374
00:24:41,951 --> 00:24:46,583
direct the department, the company in the
right direction.

375
00:24:46,859 --> 00:24:51,449
And I think that is something where, let's
say we are living in a fast -paced world,

376
00:24:51,449 --> 00:24:55,239
even today more as back in the days.

377
00:24:55,239 --> 00:24:57,919
But I think the principles are still the
same.

378
00:24:57,919 --> 00:25:03,399
I think we need to take some time to
withdraw a little bit, have a little bit

379
00:25:03,399 --> 00:25:07,759
of an helicopter view and being honest,
are we still doing everything in the

380
00:25:07,759 --> 00:25:09,219
correct way?

381
00:25:09,259 --> 00:25:15,275
And that is something I have learned out
of that period where I had to say,

382
00:25:15,275 --> 00:25:23,075
the discrepancies in company culture and
how things entrepreneurly should be done

383
00:25:23,075 --> 00:25:28,175
and how they were finally done, there was
a big, big, big gap.

384
00:25:28,175 --> 00:25:29,314
A big gap.

385
00:25:29,663 --> 00:25:30,523
Absolutely.

386
00:25:30,523 --> 00:25:36,423
I can tell you one story of a company that
was basically punishing people for being

387
00:25:36,423 --> 00:25:37,883
honest.

388
00:25:37,963 --> 00:25:40,223
Complete demoralization.

389
00:25:40,563 --> 00:25:42,603
Complete demoralization.

390
00:25:42,603 --> 00:25:44,823
Like you couldn't say something negative.

391
00:25:44,823 --> 00:25:49,543
You had to be positive or you had to be
nice, right?

392
00:25:49,543 --> 00:25:53,063
It was this culture of positivity at all
costs.

393
00:25:53,063 --> 00:25:58,083
And what happened is that the metrics,
yeah, basically it was this culture of

394
00:25:58,083 --> 00:25:58,911
pleasing.

395
00:25:58,911 --> 00:26:04,231
and the metrics all looked great until the
company shut down.

396
00:26:04,551 --> 00:26:07,682
It's just, you know, it was a slow...

397
00:26:07,682 --> 00:26:08,738
I...

398
00:26:12,159 --> 00:26:13,919
I think that's amazing.

399
00:26:15,599 --> 00:26:17,469
But there's another thing to this, right?

400
00:26:17,469 --> 00:26:19,699
Like it's not, people think it's easy.

401
00:26:19,699 --> 00:26:25,439
let's just, but no, there's a culture that
supports this, let's say philosophy or

402
00:26:25,439 --> 00:26:27,059
this way of operating.

403
00:26:27,059 --> 00:26:28,128
I'll tell you a short story.

404
00:26:28,128 --> 00:26:31,819
So when I hire people, I tell them the
following thing.

405
00:26:31,819 --> 00:26:34,739
And there's a very specific reason why I
do this.

406
00:26:34,739 --> 00:26:38,989
I say to them, look, in three to four
years, whatever, two years, three, four,

407
00:26:38,989 --> 00:26:42,071
five years, but not in a year's time, but.

408
00:26:48,233 --> 00:26:50,572
Yeah.

409
00:26:56,073 --> 00:26:57,773
Yeah.

410
00:27:02,193 --> 00:27:05,671
Yeah.

411
00:27:05,671 --> 00:27:09,971
Either way, you committed to me, you've
given me your commitment, I give you my

412
00:27:09,971 --> 00:27:10,615
commitment.

413
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:12,860
Yes.

414
00:27:13,300 --> 00:27:14,080
Yeah.

415
00:27:17,220 --> 00:27:18,159
No, that's clear.

416
00:27:18,159 --> 00:27:19,629
us, we will be here for you.

417
00:27:19,629 --> 00:27:21,099
And this is how I behave.

418
00:27:21,099 --> 00:27:24,959
And what I see is that employees are so
committed.

419
00:27:25,099 --> 00:27:27,479
And finally, I'll tell you one story.

420
00:27:27,479 --> 00:27:29,949
Elden, maybe I should cut the name.

421
00:27:29,949 --> 00:27:34,639
I don't know if I should say his name, but
anyway, one of my employees, finally he

422
00:27:34,639 --> 00:27:38,929
left Siemens and he calls me up and says,
Ari, will you refer me?

423
00:27:38,929 --> 00:27:39,903
Absolutely.

424
00:27:39,903 --> 00:27:43,813
So the hiring manager calls me up and
says, you know, what, how is this guy?

425
00:27:43,813 --> 00:27:44,203
Is he good?

426
00:27:44,203 --> 00:27:44,763
Not good.

427
00:27:44,763 --> 00:27:48,022
I say, look, you're asking all these
questions, but let me say something very

428
00:27:48,022 --> 00:27:48,863
simple.

429
00:27:48,863 --> 00:27:52,723
I will write you a check right now for $5
,000.

430
00:27:52,843 --> 00:27:56,303
If you're not happy with this employee,
you, you cash the check my money.

431
00:27:56,303 --> 00:27:57,503
It's yours.

432
00:27:58,623 --> 00:28:01,683
I am that confident that this person is
amazing.

433
00:28:01,683 --> 00:28:04,923
So that's the kind of relationship that.

434
00:28:05,383 --> 00:28:06,103
Exactly.

435
00:28:06,103 --> 00:28:06,583
Exactly.

436
00:28:06,583 --> 00:28:08,813
That's the kind of relationship we had.

437
00:28:08,959 --> 00:28:11,819
And it starts from the day that the person
was hired.

438
00:28:11,819 --> 00:28:13,259
It's not once a year.

439
00:28:13,259 --> 00:28:17,939
I love that you were talking about the
fact that the feedback is building the

440
00:28:17,939 --> 00:28:18,679
person.

441
00:28:18,679 --> 00:28:20,629
It's not once a year, slap them in the
face.

442
00:28:20,629 --> 00:28:23,539
And then based on that, they get a bonus
or don't get a bonus.

443
00:28:23,539 --> 00:28:25,139
But that's what happens everywhere, right?

444
00:28:25,139 --> 00:28:26,679
That's the common thing.

445
00:28:28,159 --> 00:28:28,782
Amazing.

446
00:28:28,782 --> 00:28:33,462
don't forget, I mean, people always think
that money is the big motivator.

447
00:28:33,462 --> 00:28:38,302
But let's say an increase in salary is a
motivation for a few weeks and people get

448
00:28:38,302 --> 00:28:39,242
used to it.

449
00:28:39,242 --> 00:28:41,682
There are different things.

450
00:28:42,282 --> 00:28:43,602
Yes.

451
00:28:44,282 --> 00:28:46,622
It is...

452
00:28:46,622 --> 00:28:48,782
Appreciation.

453
00:28:49,722 --> 00:28:53,919
No, it is appreciation and like you said,
building up people.

454
00:28:53,919 --> 00:28:54,529
That's right.

455
00:28:54,529 --> 00:28:55,543
That's right.

456
00:28:55,646 --> 00:28:56,526
a big difference.

457
00:28:56,526 --> 00:29:01,666
And I was in a very lucky situation that I
founded my own company.

458
00:29:01,746 --> 00:29:04,406
And that is finally where you are in the
situation.

459
00:29:04,406 --> 00:29:05,776
You are the responsible.

460
00:29:05,776 --> 00:29:10,846
There's nobody above you in the
organization to go to and point fingers

461
00:29:10,846 --> 00:29:13,426
because you have to solve the issues.

462
00:29:13,426 --> 00:29:15,366
You have to make it happen.

463
00:29:15,366 --> 00:29:17,146
You have to protect your people.

464
00:29:17,146 --> 00:29:22,966
And I think that was one of the most
important things also for me to have that

465
00:29:22,966 --> 00:29:24,229
responsibility.

466
00:29:24,229 --> 00:29:25,929
over a period of eight years.

467
00:29:25,929 --> 00:29:26,908
So yeah.

468
00:29:27,135 --> 00:29:27,835
Right.

469
00:29:27,835 --> 00:29:29,705
Again, this is such an amazing topic.

470
00:29:29,705 --> 00:29:34,375
I think there's been so many interesting,
interesting, like insightful comments that

471
00:29:34,375 --> 00:29:34,875
you've made.

472
00:29:34,875 --> 00:29:37,075
But again, I want to make a shift.

473
00:29:37,075 --> 00:29:37,735
OK.

474
00:29:37,735 --> 00:29:40,795
This is a nightmare.

475
00:29:40,795 --> 00:29:43,635
You're going to I know, like, but we have
to talk about it.

476
00:29:43,635 --> 00:29:46,155
Tell me about I know, I know, I know.

477
00:29:46,155 --> 00:29:48,255
I told you the hard questions would come.

478
00:29:48,255 --> 00:29:53,075
Tell me about your worst experience in
restructuring, firing people, basically

479
00:29:53,075 --> 00:29:54,223
letting people.

480
00:30:02,660 --> 00:30:06,520
Let's say to start in general, then I come
with more specifics.

481
00:30:07,300 --> 00:30:15,640
To let people go is always something that
is affecting you.

482
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:22,520
It depends on the circumstances how people
need to be fired.

483
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:28,980
If something has been decided, and that
happens normally in bigger companies,

484
00:30:28,980 --> 00:30:32,068
where you have to reduce the team,

485
00:30:32,068 --> 00:30:34,248
for whatever reasons.

486
00:30:34,248 --> 00:30:41,188
Even though the people were performing
well and the people were great, I think

487
00:30:41,188 --> 00:30:45,288
that is the most difficult decision you
have to go through.

488
00:30:45,288 --> 00:30:52,528
If somebody doesn't perform and somebody
was made aware more than one time, it is

489
00:30:52,528 --> 00:30:57,088
also something that affects a human being,
but it is a different decision.

490
00:30:57,828 --> 00:31:00,803
For me, the biggest things...

491
00:31:00,803 --> 00:31:07,003
were happening in one of the companies I
worked for where the restructuring had to

492
00:31:07,003 --> 00:31:12,383
be done because we were about to be taken
over by another company and management

493
00:31:12,383 --> 00:31:18,603
wanted to look the company lean and
efficient.

494
00:31:19,143 --> 00:31:25,543
And whatever the definition of lean and
efficient is, it affects people because if

495
00:31:25,543 --> 00:31:29,026
you have less salary cost, you are already
more efficient.

496
00:31:29,026 --> 00:31:32,506
because on the short term, your sales are
not going to drop.

497
00:31:32,506 --> 00:31:37,466
And that is something where to some part I
have to say, these are decisions I cannot

498
00:31:37,466 --> 00:31:41,906
really stand behind, but at that moment,
you have to execute them.

499
00:31:41,906 --> 00:31:45,005
And that is not something that you do with
a pleasure.

500
00:31:45,005 --> 00:31:46,271
Definitely not.

501
00:31:46,271 --> 00:31:47,621
And we've been for everything, right?

502
00:31:47,621 --> 00:31:51,531
We've been through these baths that
companies take before acquisitions or for

503
00:31:51,531 --> 00:31:52,571
different reasons.

504
00:31:52,571 --> 00:31:56,991
We've been through, I was going through
this, this bad quarter that sales didn't

505
00:31:56,991 --> 00:31:57,871
sell enough.

506
00:31:57,871 --> 00:31:59,461
So my team was like, fine.

507
00:31:59,461 --> 00:32:03,471
Like it's not our fault that sales was
disincentivized by the acquisition

508
00:32:03,471 --> 00:32:04,131
process.

509
00:32:04,131 --> 00:32:05,771
They wanted me to fire my team.

510
00:32:05,771 --> 00:32:07,911
So I was, I was upset.

511
00:32:07,911 --> 00:32:12,771
I fought it tooth and nail because you
know, it was like it's some other team is

512
00:32:12,771 --> 00:32:13,471
not performing.

513
00:32:13,471 --> 00:32:15,631
So now I'm in power, but we're one
company, right?

514
00:32:15,631 --> 00:32:15,967
So.

515
00:32:15,967 --> 00:32:19,207
But go explain to that, to your team that
you're telling him you're great, you're

516
00:32:19,207 --> 00:32:20,147
great, you're great.

517
00:32:20,147 --> 00:32:23,277
But these other guys, fuck, excuse my
language, messed up.

518
00:32:23,277 --> 00:32:25,207
And now I need to fire you.

519
00:32:25,207 --> 00:32:27,887
Like that was, I, you know what?

520
00:32:27,887 --> 00:32:32,387
In that story, after that happened, I was
managing a consulting group in Siemens.

521
00:32:32,387 --> 00:32:35,007
I decided I'm going to do sales myself.

522
00:32:35,007 --> 00:32:38,687
So, so at least I know that I never have
to fire my own people.

523
00:32:38,687 --> 00:32:42,239
And actually that, that employee I
mentioned before.

524
00:32:42,239 --> 00:32:45,089
He ended up, he said, I said to him, hey,
you're going to do sales now.

525
00:32:45,089 --> 00:32:47,299
He said, no, no, sales is disgusting.

526
00:32:47,299 --> 00:32:50,799
I said, I said, no, no, no, I'm going to
teach you how to do something called

527
00:32:50,799 --> 00:32:52,739
relationship based sales.

528
00:32:52,739 --> 00:32:55,379
I gave him, you know, how to influence
people and make friends, right?

529
00:32:55,379 --> 00:32:56,379
The great book.

530
00:32:56,379 --> 00:32:58,698
And I said to him, look, we're doing
relationship sales.

531
00:32:58,698 --> 00:32:59,489
It's about the customer.

532
00:32:59,489 --> 00:33:00,519
It's not about us.

533
00:33:00,519 --> 00:33:02,619
That guy, he was an engineer.

534
00:33:02,779 --> 00:33:05,559
He ended up closing a million and a half
quarterly.

535
00:33:05,899 --> 00:33:07,119
Quarterly.

536
00:33:07,239 --> 00:33:08,255
It is.

537
00:33:08,255 --> 00:33:12,105
You know, he had a, he was working with
Siemens and Apple, sorry, not Siemens.

538
00:33:12,105 --> 00:33:13,155
He was, we were Siemens.

539
00:33:13,155 --> 00:33:16,135
He was working with Qualcomm and Apple,
but he built such a wonderful

540
00:33:16,135 --> 00:33:17,295
relationship.

541
00:33:17,295 --> 00:33:21,095
And you know, the reason why I pushed him
into that role was because he was a very

542
00:33:21,095 --> 00:33:25,455
smart engineer, but the customers at
Qualcomm, the customers at Apple, they're

543
00:33:25,455 --> 00:33:26,155
smart engineers.

544
00:33:26,155 --> 00:33:27,565
I knew it would work.

545
00:33:27,565 --> 00:33:32,915
And he ended up being like great, great
sales guy, but that was all because of my

546
00:33:32,915 --> 00:33:35,775
nightmares of, of I need to fire people.

547
00:33:35,775 --> 00:33:37,575
So the fact that I had to fire somebody,
right?

548
00:33:37,575 --> 00:33:40,615
I had to fire some other guy, David,
because the sales guys were not

549
00:33:40,615 --> 00:33:40,955
preferring.

550
00:33:40,955 --> 00:33:42,275
So I was like, never again.

551
00:33:42,275 --> 00:33:45,375
Like, this is never, I'm not gonna let
this happen.

552
00:33:45,567 --> 00:33:46,423
You

553
00:33:47,803 --> 00:33:51,211
You know what?

554
00:33:51,211 --> 00:33:54,943
do so, I think that is a great way how to
resolve things.

555
00:33:54,943 --> 00:33:58,703
You know, in consulting, it's easy because
you're on the ground, you're working with

556
00:33:58,703 --> 00:34:00,503
the customers, you're building trust.

557
00:34:00,503 --> 00:34:06,163
So introducing sales into the consultative
process is not that difficult, but it is a

558
00:34:06,163 --> 00:34:07,503
shift of a mindset.

559
00:34:07,503 --> 00:34:09,623
But it's almost like you have all these
gifts, right?

560
00:34:09,623 --> 00:34:13,683
Like you can, you're already there as
opposed to like opening doors.

561
00:34:13,683 --> 00:34:14,503
That's very difficult.

562
00:34:14,503 --> 00:34:19,323
Account management, opening doors, you
know, cold sales, that's hard.

563
00:34:19,763 --> 00:34:23,463
But we had this gift, so I was like, let's
use it.

564
00:34:23,519 --> 00:34:26,879
And we built a huge P &L based on that.

565
00:34:27,079 --> 00:34:29,179
Rudy, what an absolute pleasure.

566
00:34:29,179 --> 00:34:30,649
This has been so much fun.

567
00:34:30,649 --> 00:34:34,319
I feel like there were so many things that
I was like, I need to talk about this.

568
00:34:34,319 --> 00:34:36,419
We didn't have the time.

569
00:34:36,419 --> 00:34:38,739
So let me ask you one last thing.

570
00:34:38,739 --> 00:34:46,199
For all of our listeners who are looking
for their next job, who are looking to be

571
00:34:46,199 --> 00:34:51,519
successful in their current job, looking
to be promoted or whatever it is, what is

572
00:34:51,519 --> 00:34:53,545
the one piece of advice?

573
00:34:53,727 --> 00:34:59,255
that you can give to our listeners on how
to be successful.

574
00:35:02,493 --> 00:35:05,293
I think stay true to yourself.

575
00:35:06,753 --> 00:35:09,003
Base yourself on the strengths you are
having.

576
00:35:09,003 --> 00:35:13,733
Hopefully you have somebody that is in
charge of you who gives you an honest

577
00:35:13,733 --> 00:35:14,793
feedback.

578
00:35:16,033 --> 00:35:17,453
Keep your eyes open.

579
00:35:17,453 --> 00:35:22,773
Develop yourself because we have a very
volatile situation both on the labor

580
00:35:22,773 --> 00:35:25,793
market as in the market in general.

581
00:35:25,793 --> 00:35:29,340
So there are a lot of new things coming
into play.

582
00:35:29,340 --> 00:35:34,680
A lot is based on AI, a lot is based on
new technologies that are flowing into our

583
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:35,760
workspace.

584
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:41,840
Instead of being afraid, embrace them and
look where you can build your synergies to

585
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:43,440
make your performance better.

586
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:45,420
Because I think that is finally the
future.

587
00:35:45,420 --> 00:35:47,460
You need to stand out.

588
00:35:47,460 --> 00:35:53,700
You need to make sure that you are up to
date with what's going on and believe in

589
00:35:53,700 --> 00:35:54,240
yourself.

590
00:35:54,240 --> 00:35:59,420
I think the first thing is the self
-awareness of be mindful.

591
00:35:59,420 --> 00:36:01,220
of your strengths.

592
00:36:01,220 --> 00:36:06,920
Be also mindful where you can do better
because I think that is a two -way street.

593
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,040
It's not only about everybody is perfect.

594
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:11,290
We have our flaws.

595
00:36:11,290 --> 00:36:15,539
We have our things where we definitely can
do better.

596
00:36:15,539 --> 00:36:22,280
And I think if we are honestly striving to
do so, the next opportunities will come

597
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,030
and you will force it.

598
00:36:24,030 --> 00:36:27,164
It is something which is automatically
coming.

599
00:36:27,215 --> 00:36:28,935
just glancing over these things there.

600
00:36:28,935 --> 00:36:32,315
So I got to stop it just This is a
superpower.

601
00:36:32,315 --> 00:36:36,795
You're talking about a superpower Self
-awareness is a superpower.

602
00:36:36,795 --> 00:36:42,335
I I I need to ask everybody to listen
carefully to what Rudy is saying the

603
00:36:42,335 --> 00:36:46,395
ability to and and what did Rudy say he
said you don't have to be perfect It

604
00:36:46,395 --> 00:36:48,031
doesn't mean you don't make mistakes

605
00:36:48,031 --> 00:36:52,251
But the ability to learn from your
mistakes, to be aware of yourself and to

606
00:36:52,251 --> 00:36:54,851
put yourself on the journey where you're
getting better.

607
00:36:54,851 --> 00:36:56,511
That's a superpower.

608
00:36:56,511 --> 00:36:57,821
What an absolute joy, Rudy.

609
00:36:57,821 --> 00:36:59,871
Thank you so much for joining us today.

610
00:36:59,871 --> 00:37:03,071
I'm sure our audience will enjoy this very
much.

611
00:37:03,071 --> 00:37:04,251
Absolutely.

612
00:37:04,251 --> 00:37:07,971
I'm going to go pick up my daughter
because she's going to be kicked out of

613
00:37:07,971 --> 00:37:09,251
her friends in a second.

614
00:37:09,251 --> 00:37:10,811
So I got to run.

615
00:37:10,811 --> 00:37:12,111
But thank you so much.

616
00:37:12,111 --> 00:37:13,131
And you need to come back.

617
00:37:13,131 --> 00:37:15,383
I think there's a lot more for us to talk
about.

618
00:37:17,018 --> 00:37:17,938
No problem.

619
00:37:17,938 --> 00:37:19,868
I happily rejoin again.

620
00:37:19,868 --> 00:37:21,819
Thank you so much for having me.

621
00:37:21,819 --> 00:37:22,969
you so much Rudy.