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Welcome to Sidelinje, the podcast for political homeless.

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People who are trending feel that they are

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a bit philosophical still.

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Around the house today, period drinkers Trond Sørensen

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and myself, Vegard Nathnes.

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Period drinkers, not Vegard Nathnes.

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You look good for your age.

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I don't even drink Coke Zero.

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No, that's insane.

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You, Vegard?

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Yes.

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When you grew up, you probably got a

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visit from a guy who came with the

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police.

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And then he told you about the horrible

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narcotics he was, right?

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Oh, yes, yes, yes.

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Yes, yes.

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And he really told you how crazy it

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is to go with you if you smoke

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hash.

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Yes, we even went on an excursion to

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a local courtroom with a young, arrogant judge,

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who stood trial over one of the ordinary

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social workers, who had to stand trial and

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say that he had done something wrong.

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And of course it was drug-related.

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Yes.

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And this is what we can call propaganda

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of horror.

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And it has worked really well, because there

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is no one in Norway who uses illegal

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drugs.

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No, no, no.

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And we also saw the epic work From

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Heaven to Hell, which is about some people

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up in northern Norway who drive a moped

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and take their first hash, their first joint.

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Yes.

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And then in a courtroom that feels like

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a quarter, they end up tearing the track

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in Germany.

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Yes.

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And die there.

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Yes.

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And this is a kind of propaganda of

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horror.

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If we just scare them enough, they will

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never relate to it in a rational way.

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Then they are just against it, and that's

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what we want.

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This has not been the most successful way

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to approach this, but then it's rinse and

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repeat.

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Find a new way, a new place to

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use this.

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If at first it doesn't work, try, try

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again.

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Yes.

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And then we can do it on climate.

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Yes.

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We're going to so-called dark pedagogy.

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Yes.

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And I think dark pedagogy describes this writing

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program of Motterhus.

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But why not take it a step further?

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Exactly.

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New research suggests using so-called dark pedagogy

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in schools to increase climate engagement among the

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young.

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The method is to expose students to 11

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-year-olds for strong negative sense impressions, such

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as the smell of dead fish or videos

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of burning koala bears, to express discomfort and

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fear.

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This is presented as pedagogy, but critical voices

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may also call it emotional manipulation.

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Or indoctrination.

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Indoctrination, yes.

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Which is what it is.

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Yes.

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It's not just what we call it.

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It's a rational analysis of what this is.

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This is completely crazy.

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It's actually completely crazy, and it's so shameless.

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And this comes from people who think that

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we have such a well-organized goal with

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what we do, that we can use any

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method to get people to keep up with

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us.

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It's actually quite authoritarian.

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Authoritarian and totalitarian.

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And perhaps more the latter than the former.

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Because the authoritarian is ...

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To illustrate the difference, take a guy like

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Pinochet.

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Definitely authoritarian.

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If you were too highly dissatisfied with him,

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you got a helicopter ride.

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Yes.

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And that was it.

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Strong means of action, but if you just

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flew around and thought about yourself, but you

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didn't do much of it, then it was

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fine.

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While the totalitarian wants control over both what

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you think and how you live.

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You should not be able to think your

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own thoughts, and you should not have illegal

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thoughts.

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You should engage yourself.

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Exactly.

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You should have the right thoughts, and in

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the right way, from the right source, and

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with the right outcomes.

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So if you want to follow these rules,

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you just have to turn off this podcast

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now.

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No, but it's totalitarian in the right sense

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of the word.

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We take activism and bring it into the

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school.

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We influence the most vulnerable with the strongest

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means of power we have for them, which

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is the school.

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Five, six, seven hours a day you will

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be indoctrinated in this official propaganda.

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And then you will come out of it

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as a sound activist on the right things.

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And I don't think these people themselves recognize

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that this is totalitarian, because it is so

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right and so important and so kind and

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good.

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But it is directly manipulative.

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You manipulate people who have no conditions to

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see through the manipulation.

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That's one of the reasons why it works.

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Because you do it when they are small,

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right?

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Yes.

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Let's indoctrinate people while they go to kindergarten,

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and then we use them as soldiers before

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they turn 25.

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And there is something deeply cynical about it.

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Yes.

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A quote here from Hanna Arendt.

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The goal of totalitarian propaganda is not to

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convince, but to organize.

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And this is the organization of children's emotional

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life to the benefit of a specific political

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agenda.

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And what was it?

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Yes, on the most banal things.

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Now we have just sent a man in

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a Christmas tree to London, right?

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Yes.

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And the speaker of the house and everything

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from Great Britain was there to follow the

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cutting of the tree, and the mayor of

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Oslo and the mayor will be there when

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they are going to light the Christmas tree

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in London.

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Great tradition and all that.

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And has nothing to do with anything else.

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And what do you think is climbing up

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in that tree?

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An idiot.

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Yes.

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That Extinction Rebellion idiot.

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I don't understand why they took him.

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He's sitting there and hanging up in the

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tree while a lot of people are trying

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to get attention to something else that he

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is passionate about.

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Yes.

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And it's like ...

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Can't you just cut down that tree?

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But he's up there, I guess.

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Does the feeling come through him anyway?

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Yes, the worst thing is that the tree

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didn't even fall down.

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Because they just cut it and attach it

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in these hoisting cranes.

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This could have been done nicely.

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You could have just sent the Nissen to

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London.

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Yes.

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Strap it on the boat and just send

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it over.

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With the tree.

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They can use it as a Christmas star,

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in my opinion.

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Yes, he can sit up there as long

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as he wants, in my opinion.

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But there's no point in stopping the process

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because he's sitting there.

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And there's something about when people are so

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indoctrinated and one-track minded, that they don't

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feel their visitation time at all.

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And that's a lot of the point with

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the activism for Extinction Rebellion.

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That they just want to bother people where

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they're most irritated.

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They think that if we bother people, they'll

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start listening to us.

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Yes, and it's like ...

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I'm not sure about that.

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It's not necessarily a good pedagogical approach.

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It works as a pedagogical approach.

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I actually think that they, to a lesser

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extent, persuade people rather than irritate people.

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Yes, and ...

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There's a video where they sit on the

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motorway in Røstia and block all traffic, right?

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And then there's a guy who comes and

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says that he's had enough of these people

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here.

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And in addition, he had a pregnant wife

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who was going to the delivery clinic.

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So he wasn't very patient with these people.

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So it was like, let them go.

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And to the applause of other mobilists, you

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get this mess out of the way.

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But it's like ...

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The police are doing nothing.

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That's the problem.

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Yes, that's the problem.

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There's no handling.

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And this is outsourced to the police.

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You don't really have the power to take

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care of it yourself.

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But when you call the police and they

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come, you just stand there and watch.

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Because they have a little too much sympathy.

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But I mean, the way to handle this,

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if you're going to be a serious state,

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is to say, now we'll carry you off,

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and don't do this again.

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If they do it again, you'll carry them

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off, and it'll be a mess.

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And if you don't do that?

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Yes, then you have to go up that

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escalatory ladder, right?

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But we have a state that is not

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willing to handle it, because the purpose is

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too good.

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But I mean, if there had been neo

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-Nazis who were trying to save the way,

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then it would have gone pretty smoothly.

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I think they would have dealt with colds

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and tear gas in the first place.

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Yes, and there's something about it that the

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rules must actually apply to everyone.

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It should apply to everyone, but we treat

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things very differently based on how we stand.

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They basically have a so-called good standing.

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They just have a policy that kills half

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the crown.

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But they mean well when they do.

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Yes, communism and Marxism have always escaped with

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their crimes in some way.

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At least in many ways.

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But then it fits well to move us

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into Oxford Dictionary's new word for 2025.

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I must admit that I was very surprised

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when I saw it.

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Rage bait?

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I don't think that's a 2025 thing.

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No, it's just that the word has become

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extra popular.

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And here Extinction Rebellion has contributed.

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Yes, I just realize that I think it's

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at least 10 years ago.

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I came into contact with the word rage

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bait for the first time.

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Yes.

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So it's possible that those who run Oxford

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Dictionary are just damn slow.

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Yes, not as much on the internet as

280
00:10:15,070 --> 00:10:15,410
the rest of us.

281
00:10:15,710 --> 00:10:17,790
No, at the time very little.

282
00:10:18,110 --> 00:10:21,130
They were very fast during COVID when they

283
00:10:21,130 --> 00:10:23,470
were going to define anti-vaxxers.

284
00:10:24,130 --> 00:10:26,610
They redefined it in just a few months.

285
00:10:26,890 --> 00:10:29,990
From being one who is skeptical of all

286
00:10:29,990 --> 00:10:31,910
vaccines to being one who is against anti

287
00:10:31,910 --> 00:10:32,230
-vaccine.

288
00:10:34,830 --> 00:10:36,370
Did you do that?

289
00:10:36,510 --> 00:10:37,030
Yes, yes, yes.

290
00:10:37,210 --> 00:10:38,010
Then I didn't get it with me.

291
00:10:38,210 --> 00:10:38,350
Yes.

292
00:10:39,730 --> 00:10:40,290
Okay.

293
00:10:40,990 --> 00:10:41,590
I don't think so.

294
00:10:41,790 --> 00:10:42,890
Then it was taken for granted.

295
00:10:43,330 --> 00:10:46,750
So everyone got to write about it and

296
00:10:46,750 --> 00:10:49,050
then they got to post their article to

297
00:10:49,050 --> 00:10:49,830
relatively many.

298
00:10:50,710 --> 00:10:51,570
As they should.

299
00:10:51,990 --> 00:10:52,150
Yes.

300
00:10:52,710 --> 00:10:53,150
Yes.

301
00:10:54,670 --> 00:10:57,130
Rage bait is the word of the year

302
00:10:57,130 --> 00:10:58,690
for 2025.

303
00:10:58,690 --> 00:11:02,250
The term describes content that is designed exclusively

304
00:11:02,250 --> 00:11:06,390
to provoke anger and indignation.

305
00:11:06,770 --> 00:11:09,830
It could mean something about Norwegian party politics.

306
00:11:10,430 --> 00:11:11,250
Yes, you could say that.

307
00:11:11,750 --> 00:11:15,210
I feel that they are constant rage bait

308
00:11:15,210 --> 00:11:15,630
for my part.

309
00:11:16,450 --> 00:11:19,370
And then they perhaps emphasize the essential point

310
00:11:19,370 --> 00:11:22,690
that it is indicative of our time's media

311
00:11:22,690 --> 00:11:23,270
economy.

312
00:11:23,270 --> 00:11:28,090
Where the algorithms premiere conflict before consensus and

313
00:11:28,090 --> 00:11:29,650
feelings before facts.

314
00:11:30,030 --> 00:11:32,350
And it is reasonable to say that Extinction

315
00:11:32,350 --> 00:11:35,110
Rebellion is also relatively algorithmically adapted.

316
00:11:36,010 --> 00:11:36,110
Yes.

317
00:11:37,210 --> 00:11:38,750
So, what should we say?

318
00:11:39,330 --> 00:11:41,710
Society-philosophical, media-philosophical.

319
00:11:42,030 --> 00:11:47,530
Then this is a topic that I must

320
00:11:47,530 --> 00:11:49,490
say I consider to be a significant problem.

321
00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:54,450
Because if you look at the media economy

322
00:11:54,450 --> 00:11:57,830
on X, maybe especially because people have been

323
00:11:57,830 --> 00:12:02,030
sharpest in the edges, then it is sharp

324
00:12:02,030 --> 00:12:03,610
jokes that get attention.

325
00:12:04,930 --> 00:12:11,850
And such reflected statements just disappear from everyone's

326
00:12:11,850 --> 00:12:11,950
mind.

327
00:12:12,210 --> 00:12:13,430
No one gets angry at you.

328
00:12:14,190 --> 00:12:18,050
And that's something you can say something about,

329
00:12:18,050 --> 00:12:20,330
using the name Suss-Bagdert 1977.

330
00:12:22,810 --> 00:12:24,870
Yes, maybe I've been a little sharp in

331
00:12:24,870 --> 00:12:25,590
the edges for a while.

332
00:12:27,050 --> 00:12:28,570
Do you feel that it has worked?

333
00:12:30,810 --> 00:12:32,290
The question is, what must be?

334
00:12:32,590 --> 00:12:33,710
Yes, you do.

335
00:12:33,970 --> 00:12:36,270
But in the end, you have to be

336
00:12:36,270 --> 00:12:38,990
in some form of attention, positive or negative.

337
00:12:39,390 --> 00:12:42,890
Yes, simply that for a while, at some

338
00:12:42,890 --> 00:12:45,450
point I realized that the left had an

339
00:12:45,450 --> 00:12:47,430
approach to the world.

340
00:12:47,430 --> 00:12:50,370
Where they could afford to do whatever they

341
00:12:50,370 --> 00:12:51,510
wanted, because they were so good.

342
00:12:51,830 --> 00:12:54,070
And thus they could also attack people because

343
00:12:54,070 --> 00:12:55,330
they were so good when they did it.

344
00:12:55,850 --> 00:12:59,410
Yes, they can break the rules for good

345
00:12:59,410 --> 00:12:59,750
debate.

346
00:13:00,070 --> 00:13:03,490
They can be manipulative, they can cheat with

347
00:13:03,490 --> 00:13:04,890
facts, they can do all sorts of weird

348
00:13:04,890 --> 00:13:06,710
things and expect to get away with it.

349
00:13:06,870 --> 00:13:09,050
Yes, but my approach then was that it

350
00:13:09,050 --> 00:13:11,910
should be so uncomfortable to do it.

351
00:13:12,690 --> 00:13:14,030
If you do not stop doing it, at

352
00:13:14,030 --> 00:13:15,310
least do not do it so often.

353
00:13:16,730 --> 00:13:20,230
I'm sorry, but if this is the way

354
00:13:20,230 --> 00:13:21,790
you're doing it, then I actually want to

355
00:13:21,790 --> 00:13:23,630
make the debate arena a little cheap to

356
00:13:23,630 --> 00:13:23,970
be on.

357
00:13:24,450 --> 00:13:24,930
Consciously.

358
00:13:25,150 --> 00:13:32,230
Because if it's comfortable to be around and

359
00:13:32,230 --> 00:13:34,130
react in this way, then it just becomes

360
00:13:34,130 --> 00:13:34,510
more of it.

361
00:13:34,690 --> 00:13:38,530
But if it gets uncomfortable, it's cheap, I

362
00:13:38,530 --> 00:13:41,270
get a lot of shit thrown in the

363
00:13:41,270 --> 00:13:42,950
face by it, then maybe I moderate more.

364
00:13:42,950 --> 00:13:44,970
Maybe they moderate a little, at least.

365
00:13:45,290 --> 00:13:46,490
So I do not know if that worked.

366
00:13:46,790 --> 00:13:48,830
And then I have become much nicer in

367
00:13:48,830 --> 00:13:50,510
the use of my ex the last few

368
00:13:50,510 --> 00:13:50,910
years too.

369
00:13:53,130 --> 00:13:55,270
I do not know, I feel that my

370
00:13:55,270 --> 00:13:58,410
approach to ex has changed with the departure

371
00:13:58,410 --> 00:13:58,690
of Tredahl.

372
00:14:00,510 --> 00:14:03,450
God help, it was comfortable that he disappeared.

373
00:14:03,850 --> 00:14:05,930
I saw so much of Tredahl.

374
00:14:06,470 --> 00:14:08,550
I have never responded to anyone who has

375
00:14:08,550 --> 00:14:11,610
written and has with uneven numbers muted him

376
00:14:11,610 --> 00:14:11,810
and stuff.

377
00:14:11,810 --> 00:14:16,050
I do not like to censor people, but

378
00:14:16,050 --> 00:14:18,870
I got all Tredahl the whole damn time.

379
00:14:19,210 --> 00:14:20,330
I have started to get on Facebook too.

380
00:14:22,150 --> 00:14:23,950
But there he writes a little longer, and

381
00:14:23,950 --> 00:14:27,590
then he just makes a lot of mistakes.

382
00:14:27,950 --> 00:14:29,710
But he does not get as sad when

383
00:14:29,710 --> 00:14:33,190
he has more signs, because then he feels

384
00:14:33,190 --> 00:14:34,170
that he has to write more.

385
00:14:34,870 --> 00:14:36,510
And then he actually has to start arguing.

386
00:14:37,030 --> 00:14:38,490
And then he makes mistakes, time after time

387
00:14:38,490 --> 00:14:39,990
after time, does not understand the world, does

388
00:14:39,990 --> 00:14:41,410
not understand how it looks, and does not

389
00:14:41,410 --> 00:14:42,630
understand what he has to relate to.

390
00:14:45,470 --> 00:14:48,030
No, Tredahl is really the definition of rage

391
00:14:48,030 --> 00:14:49,130
bait, for me at least.

392
00:14:49,650 --> 00:14:53,010
Because it's so top-notch, idiotic, and cheeky,

393
00:14:53,190 --> 00:14:55,890
and clumsy, and rude.

394
00:14:56,590 --> 00:14:58,410
I have actually lost time to answer him

395
00:14:58,410 --> 00:15:00,190
a few times lately.

396
00:15:00,590 --> 00:15:02,310
I never get a response to that.

397
00:15:03,210 --> 00:15:05,290
It may be that what he wrote was

398
00:15:05,290 --> 00:15:06,430
not what he wanted to relate to.

399
00:15:06,550 --> 00:15:08,570
For example, that you do not have so

400
00:15:08,570 --> 00:15:10,870
much power on the far left against the

401
00:15:10,870 --> 00:15:12,330
Labour Party, because the Centre Party may think

402
00:15:12,330 --> 00:15:13,070
they have to go the other way.

403
00:15:17,250 --> 00:15:20,010
Unfortunately, there are actually some parties on the

404
00:15:20,010 --> 00:15:21,250
other side who often say that yes, you

405
00:15:21,250 --> 00:15:21,890
are welcome here.

406
00:15:22,470 --> 00:15:24,190
It's not entirely untrue.

407
00:15:25,090 --> 00:15:25,810
And that's a good thing.

408
00:15:27,030 --> 00:15:28,610
What is ...

409
00:15:29,690 --> 00:15:31,510
I do not remember who it was, I

410
00:15:31,510 --> 00:15:33,430
heard it said, but it was some kind

411
00:15:33,430 --> 00:15:38,430
of left intellectual who said that the left

412
00:15:38,430 --> 00:15:41,910
has a core of around 10% of

413
00:15:41,910 --> 00:15:44,890
the voters, who are dedicated leftists.

414
00:15:45,770 --> 00:15:50,010
And they typically divide between the Red Party,

415
00:15:50,070 --> 00:15:51,130
SV, and MDG.

416
00:15:51,390 --> 00:15:53,990
And the argument there has been that the

417
00:15:53,990 --> 00:15:57,450
three parties should really just fight each other

418
00:15:57,450 --> 00:15:59,410
to gather the troops.

419
00:16:00,010 --> 00:16:02,090
Given the system we have, I do not

420
00:16:02,090 --> 00:16:04,010
think that, if you want the left side

421
00:16:04,010 --> 00:16:05,130
well, then I do not think it's so

422
00:16:05,130 --> 00:16:05,430
smart.

423
00:16:06,090 --> 00:16:07,830
I think they have such different profiles.

424
00:16:08,550 --> 00:16:10,170
SV and MDG could have done it well.

425
00:16:10,410 --> 00:16:11,950
But the Red Party has more to lose.

426
00:16:12,470 --> 00:16:14,430
But my problem is that I feel that

427
00:16:14,430 --> 00:16:16,270
I can beat SV and MDG together, but

428
00:16:16,270 --> 00:16:18,210
I also feel that I can beat MDG

429
00:16:18,210 --> 00:16:18,610
and the left.

430
00:16:19,230 --> 00:16:21,650
And then the question is, can we beat

431
00:16:21,650 --> 00:16:22,670
the left and SV together?

432
00:16:22,910 --> 00:16:24,150
No, it's twisted.

433
00:16:24,430 --> 00:16:26,210
It's twisted, but you can put MDG in

434
00:16:26,210 --> 00:16:27,750
both camps in some way.

435
00:16:28,170 --> 00:16:31,430
Except that then the left will be the

436
00:16:31,430 --> 00:16:31,930
new SV.

437
00:16:32,770 --> 00:16:33,230
Yes.

438
00:16:35,910 --> 00:16:39,790
I think there is quite a distance between

439
00:16:39,790 --> 00:16:42,090
the left and MDG as well.

440
00:16:43,350 --> 00:16:46,350
It's a bit coincidental that the flag issues

441
00:16:46,350 --> 00:16:47,910
are so similar in time.

442
00:16:48,250 --> 00:16:50,010
Yes, I do not understand why the left

443
00:16:50,010 --> 00:16:52,590
insists on driving the same flag issues as

444
00:16:52,590 --> 00:16:53,050
MDG.

445
00:16:53,310 --> 00:16:54,490
I think this is a good way to

446
00:16:54,490 --> 00:16:56,390
get out of the barrier, so I appreciate

447
00:16:56,390 --> 00:16:56,670
it.

448
00:16:56,710 --> 00:16:57,730
You have already succeeded in that.

449
00:16:58,670 --> 00:17:00,270
I will think about the next barrier.

450
00:17:01,930 --> 00:17:02,950
A small barrier.

451
00:17:03,609 --> 00:17:05,170
We'll see how long it takes.

452
00:17:07,010 --> 00:17:09,589
Who comes first, right or left?

453
00:17:11,410 --> 00:17:13,589
There I put the money on the left.

454
00:17:13,849 --> 00:17:15,170
I have to admit that.

455
00:17:15,310 --> 00:17:17,630
But I hope right too.

456
00:17:18,250 --> 00:17:18,849
I have a chance.

457
00:17:19,970 --> 00:17:22,349
No, but if you look at MDG and

458
00:17:22,349 --> 00:17:24,170
the left, they also existed.

459
00:17:25,050 --> 00:17:26,230
Climate and environment.

460
00:17:26,650 --> 00:17:28,410
Obviously north-south in common.

461
00:17:28,410 --> 00:17:32,670
A bit of a pragmatic attitude towards business

462
00:17:32,670 --> 00:17:34,010
and employment and so on.

463
00:17:34,190 --> 00:17:36,350
And now I mean it in a very

464
00:17:36,350 --> 00:17:40,290
little precise sense, but they do not see

465
00:17:40,290 --> 00:17:42,510
far from that we should also create values.

466
00:17:42,710 --> 00:17:43,790
I think it applies to both parties.

467
00:17:44,290 --> 00:17:45,770
And then they are both for the EU.

468
00:17:46,150 --> 00:17:48,950
Maybe the most explicit EU supporters.

469
00:17:50,130 --> 00:17:51,390
Maybe together with the right.

470
00:17:51,690 --> 00:17:55,030
Yes, I think the right with the new

471
00:17:55,030 --> 00:17:57,990
leaders will be very, very EU, EU, EU,

472
00:17:58,050 --> 00:17:58,210
EU.

473
00:17:58,630 --> 00:18:01,590
More than under Erna, who was probably there,

474
00:18:01,670 --> 00:18:03,230
but I think she took it more down.

475
00:18:03,530 --> 00:18:07,270
Yes, and I'm a little ...

476
00:18:07,270 --> 00:18:07,730
What should I say?

477
00:18:08,170 --> 00:18:11,450
The right has an element in itself that

478
00:18:11,450 --> 00:18:13,830
probably appeals to leftists.

479
00:18:14,270 --> 00:18:20,670
Because they have that very clear liberal elite

480
00:18:20,670 --> 00:18:23,630
set with luxury sales.

481
00:18:23,630 --> 00:18:25,510
They eat with a knife and fork.

482
00:18:26,070 --> 00:18:33,230
Yes, but it is EU, Ukraine, climate, progressive

483
00:18:33,230 --> 00:18:34,330
values ​​in some way.

484
00:18:34,790 --> 00:18:37,290
And not to mention that everything is wrong

485
00:18:37,290 --> 00:18:37,610
with that.

486
00:18:37,910 --> 00:18:39,750
But it would have been nice if they

487
00:18:39,750 --> 00:18:42,350
sorted a little more between the turns and

488
00:18:42,350 --> 00:18:43,710
turns, and important and less important.

489
00:18:44,490 --> 00:18:46,350
It hits me at least constantly that there

490
00:18:46,350 --> 00:18:48,590
is more left in the right than I

491
00:18:48,590 --> 00:18:49,870
am aware of.

492
00:18:50,290 --> 00:18:52,930
And left understood as those attitudes.

493
00:18:52,930 --> 00:18:55,010
So maybe, yes.

494
00:18:55,190 --> 00:18:56,770
I do not know which parties could lock

495
00:18:56,770 --> 00:18:57,130
themselves together.

496
00:18:58,230 --> 00:18:59,310
SV and MDG.

497
00:18:59,410 --> 00:19:01,250
And it's actually a little incredible to say,

498
00:19:01,370 --> 00:19:03,630
but I think SV would have been more

499
00:19:03,630 --> 00:19:06,710
edible or rational if they had absorbed MDG.

500
00:19:07,030 --> 00:19:08,750
And that's a bit of a crazy thought.

501
00:19:09,110 --> 00:19:12,410
Yes, because otherwise you feel that you lock

502
00:19:12,410 --> 00:19:16,010
up MDG's program or listen to MDG's and

503
00:19:16,010 --> 00:19:18,370
think that this was well thought through and

504
00:19:18,370 --> 00:19:18,530
rational.

505
00:19:18,990 --> 00:19:22,150
But we have that guy we talked to

506
00:19:22,150 --> 00:19:22,490
so far.

507
00:19:23,070 --> 00:19:24,690
At that event in Tavare.

508
00:19:25,050 --> 00:19:25,230
Yes.

509
00:19:25,590 --> 00:19:26,630
I do not remember what his name is,

510
00:19:26,850 --> 00:19:29,070
but he's probably in Stortingen now from Østfold,

511
00:19:29,210 --> 00:19:29,310
I think.

512
00:19:30,050 --> 00:19:33,370
I mean, he's in a panel with an

513
00:19:33,370 --> 00:19:35,530
MDG, a right-wing man and ...

514
00:19:36,110 --> 00:19:37,510
No, sorry, a right-wing woman actually.

515
00:19:38,110 --> 00:19:39,230
And an FRPR.

516
00:19:39,470 --> 00:19:42,670
So it's the MDG we're dealing with, that

517
00:19:42,670 --> 00:19:44,450
was the one who had control of things.

518
00:19:45,050 --> 00:19:47,370
He understood a slightly larger picture of things

519
00:19:47,370 --> 00:19:48,510
than these others did.

520
00:19:48,550 --> 00:19:49,070
Yes, it was like that.

521
00:19:49,210 --> 00:19:50,250
If you had to choose to vote on

522
00:19:50,250 --> 00:19:51,290
one of them, you would have been him,

523
00:19:51,410 --> 00:19:51,510
right?

524
00:19:51,710 --> 00:19:52,330
Of the three.

525
00:19:52,670 --> 00:19:54,150
And that was far from the worst people

526
00:19:54,150 --> 00:19:55,150
from the right and FRPR.

527
00:19:55,370 --> 00:19:57,070
Or was it Mollberg from the right?

528
00:19:57,650 --> 00:19:58,450
And ...

529
00:19:58,450 --> 00:20:01,050
Wasn't it Marius Nielsen from FRPR?

530
00:20:01,490 --> 00:20:04,490
I'm actually not sure who came from FRPR

531
00:20:04,490 --> 00:20:04,770
that time.

532
00:20:04,910 --> 00:20:06,810
It's been so long since we've been allowed

533
00:20:06,810 --> 00:20:07,330
to be a bit greedy.

534
00:20:07,770 --> 00:20:08,170
Yes, yes, yes.

535
00:20:09,470 --> 00:20:11,930
But if the three of them presented themselves

536
00:20:11,930 --> 00:20:13,510
as what you had to vote for, you

537
00:20:13,510 --> 00:20:14,650
would have voted for MDG.

538
00:20:14,870 --> 00:20:15,110
Yes.

539
00:20:15,490 --> 00:20:17,490
And how he survives in that party is

540
00:20:17,490 --> 00:20:19,110
mildly incredible to me.

541
00:20:19,110 --> 00:20:20,550
But that's how it is.

542
00:20:21,070 --> 00:20:23,430
And as we mentioned, these are the parties

543
00:20:23,430 --> 00:20:25,670
that are most eager to get us into

544
00:20:25,670 --> 00:20:26,070
the EU.

545
00:20:26,970 --> 00:20:28,090
What is the EU then?

546
00:20:29,770 --> 00:20:30,250
Or ...

547
00:20:30,250 --> 00:20:32,170
The EU is rage bait in itself, after

548
00:20:32,170 --> 00:20:32,270
all.

549
00:20:32,430 --> 00:20:33,050
It's rage bait.

550
00:20:35,150 --> 00:20:38,950
An overnational muck organization that gets less and

551
00:20:38,950 --> 00:20:39,410
less votes.

552
00:20:41,150 --> 00:20:43,150
And who is at war with Elon Musk.

553
00:20:43,690 --> 00:20:45,230
Of course, at war with Elon.

554
00:20:45,590 --> 00:20:45,750
Yes.

555
00:20:45,750 --> 00:20:46,750
And ...

556
00:20:46,750 --> 00:20:49,470
Let's just read very briefly here.

557
00:20:49,690 --> 00:20:52,670
The EU has submitted X, a vote of

558
00:20:52,670 --> 00:20:55,410
1.2 billion kroner, for violation of the

559
00:20:55,410 --> 00:20:57,650
Union's rules of entry on hate speech and

560
00:20:57,650 --> 00:20:58,410
disinformation.

561
00:20:58,810 --> 00:21:00,470
Elon Musk responds by calling it an attack

562
00:21:00,470 --> 00:21:01,350
on freedom of expression.

563
00:21:01,990 --> 00:21:04,770
And for support from Trump's administration in the

564
00:21:04,770 --> 00:21:04,970
USA.

565
00:21:05,150 --> 00:21:07,390
And that marks a clear front line.

566
00:21:08,510 --> 00:21:09,550
And ...

567
00:21:09,550 --> 00:21:11,750
Immediately, we want to say that Musk is

568
00:21:11,750 --> 00:21:12,050
right.

569
00:21:12,050 --> 00:21:16,950
When you make overnational hate speech laws and

570
00:21:16,950 --> 00:21:21,830
disinformation laws, which in a way trump the

571
00:21:21,830 --> 00:21:26,230
member states' possible freedom of expression and laws

572
00:21:26,230 --> 00:21:29,670
around it, then it's very strange.

573
00:21:30,110 --> 00:21:33,150
Yes, I think it's reasonable to say that

574
00:21:33,150 --> 00:21:36,910
we are skeptical of all such hate speech

575
00:21:36,910 --> 00:21:40,110
laws and freedom of expression-limited laws.

576
00:21:40,110 --> 00:21:42,070
Because there is always a problem with who

577
00:21:42,070 --> 00:21:43,510
decides what is right and what is not.

578
00:21:43,750 --> 00:21:46,470
And there are always selective exercises of these

579
00:21:46,470 --> 00:21:46,730
laws.

580
00:21:47,110 --> 00:21:50,090
And it is reasonable to say that I

581
00:21:50,090 --> 00:21:52,870
think the EU can be blamed for this

582
00:21:52,870 --> 00:21:53,250
as well.

583
00:21:53,390 --> 00:21:56,050
Because the vote they are now submitting, 1

584
00:21:56,050 --> 00:21:59,130
.2 billion we have written here, I read

585
00:21:59,130 --> 00:22:00,710
somewhere it was 1.4 billion, but the

586
00:22:00,710 --> 00:22:01,090
same as that.

587
00:22:01,170 --> 00:22:03,650
It's just a calculation course from the Euro.

588
00:22:04,010 --> 00:22:07,150
But that vote is the first.

589
00:22:07,350 --> 00:22:08,690
It is the first time they use this

590
00:22:08,690 --> 00:22:09,710
law against someone.

591
00:22:10,830 --> 00:22:13,790
And it seems a bit convincing that it

592
00:22:13,790 --> 00:22:17,010
is against our time's buzzy man, seen from

593
00:22:17,010 --> 00:22:18,630
their point of view, Elon Musk.

594
00:22:18,870 --> 00:22:22,290
Because there is a lot of weirdness on

595
00:22:22,290 --> 00:22:23,970
the internet in many places, and there was

596
00:22:23,970 --> 00:22:24,890
a lot of weirdness on Twitter.

597
00:22:25,570 --> 00:22:27,110
We always see that there is a lot

598
00:22:27,110 --> 00:22:28,350
of weirdness on Blue Sky.

599
00:22:28,930 --> 00:22:29,990
There is actually a lot of weirdness.

600
00:22:30,630 --> 00:22:33,010
But it is Elon who becomes the prisoner

601
00:22:33,010 --> 00:22:33,590
for it.

602
00:22:33,890 --> 00:22:37,950
And there is a problem here with vague

603
00:22:37,950 --> 00:22:45,110
promises and great discretion in the implementation of

604
00:22:45,110 --> 00:22:45,210
it.

605
00:22:45,490 --> 00:22:48,290
It is almost entirely predictable who is going

606
00:22:48,290 --> 00:22:49,110
to be hit by it.

607
00:22:49,350 --> 00:22:52,790
It is a popularity competition, and it is

608
00:22:52,790 --> 00:22:54,750
not Elon at the top of his game.

609
00:22:55,090 --> 00:22:56,110
In no way.

610
00:22:56,410 --> 00:23:00,350
And then the EU has gathered this power

611
00:23:00,350 --> 00:23:02,590
in its own hands, and then they distribute

612
00:23:02,590 --> 00:23:03,930
fines to people they don't like.

613
00:23:04,190 --> 00:23:07,850
And the reason here is that X does

614
00:23:07,850 --> 00:23:11,410
not moderate its content fast enough, or well

615
00:23:11,410 --> 00:23:14,270
enough, or has the strength to do so.

616
00:23:14,930 --> 00:23:18,070
And there you can say, I think X

617
00:23:18,070 --> 00:23:21,750
and all these social media companies, but X

618
00:23:21,750 --> 00:23:24,390
has really put the trend there, because old

619
00:23:24,390 --> 00:23:26,970
Twitter was damn eager to raise their own

620
00:23:26,970 --> 00:23:29,750
moral boundaries on things.

621
00:23:30,010 --> 00:23:33,130
While Elon has been clear that we limit

622
00:23:33,130 --> 00:23:34,590
what is forbidden by law.

623
00:23:35,770 --> 00:23:38,290
And if what you say on X is

624
00:23:38,290 --> 00:23:40,150
legal in the country you say it is,

625
00:23:40,270 --> 00:23:40,830
then it is allowed to say it on

626
00:23:40,830 --> 00:23:41,090
X.

627
00:23:41,630 --> 00:23:44,310
Minus some of those, I don't know what

628
00:23:44,310 --> 00:23:45,450
to call it, bullying campaigns and stuff.

629
00:23:45,950 --> 00:23:48,090
Some of those terms of service stuff.

630
00:23:48,570 --> 00:23:51,490
And then the problem arises that the EU

631
00:23:51,490 --> 00:23:53,010
is not a country, it is not a

632
00:23:53,010 --> 00:23:56,210
nation, but they have a rule that is

633
00:23:56,210 --> 00:23:58,070
at the top of all the member states,

634
00:23:58,430 --> 00:23:59,650
which does not deviate from all the member

635
00:23:59,650 --> 00:23:59,930
states.

636
00:24:01,310 --> 00:24:05,290
And normally the EU EU's rule will be

637
00:24:05,290 --> 00:24:08,430
implemented in all the member states, but here

638
00:24:08,430 --> 00:24:09,770
I have not seen anything like that yet.

639
00:24:10,130 --> 00:24:11,310
And that is probably because it is actually

640
00:24:11,310 --> 00:24:14,610
in most nations not possible to implement, because

641
00:24:14,610 --> 00:24:16,950
it requires fundamental changes and so on, and

642
00:24:16,950 --> 00:24:18,010
I am not willing to say that it

643
00:24:18,010 --> 00:24:18,370
is not there.

644
00:24:18,590 --> 00:24:20,390
But they can also sit at the top

645
00:24:20,390 --> 00:24:24,410
and just, I hope, run this rule and

646
00:24:24,410 --> 00:24:27,810
use this rule across all the member states'

647
00:24:29,010 --> 00:24:29,730
own laws.

648
00:24:29,730 --> 00:24:35,510
I have always thought that, I remember 25

649
00:24:35,510 --> 00:24:38,950
years ago there was a case where the

650
00:24:38,950 --> 00:24:42,350
EU bribed Microsoft for monopoly business.

651
00:24:42,910 --> 00:24:46,250
Because they had such a dominant role with

652
00:24:46,250 --> 00:24:49,910
Reinarc and Netlaser and Internet Explorer and Windows

653
00:24:49,910 --> 00:24:52,490
and everything, and bad, bad, bad, bad, bad.

654
00:24:52,930 --> 00:24:55,930
And then the EU found out that it

655
00:24:55,930 --> 00:24:58,470
qualified for a clicker boot.

656
00:24:58,470 --> 00:25:01,110
And then I was a little concerned about

657
00:25:01,110 --> 00:25:03,210
open sources at the time, so I started

658
00:25:03,210 --> 00:25:06,330
to do some research about Open Office.

659
00:25:07,050 --> 00:25:09,670
And I mean, for 99% of users

660
00:25:09,670 --> 00:25:11,850
Open Office is more than good enough.

661
00:25:12,250 --> 00:25:13,330
You do not need Excel.

662
00:25:13,650 --> 00:25:14,330
And Word.

663
00:25:14,590 --> 00:25:15,710
I have used a lot of Open Office,

664
00:25:15,830 --> 00:25:18,150
you can save things as Word formats anyway

665
00:25:18,150 --> 00:25:18,390
there.

666
00:25:18,650 --> 00:25:21,330
But what I thought that time, because I

667
00:25:21,330 --> 00:25:23,590
ran a small blog with a friend, so

668
00:25:23,590 --> 00:25:26,470
I checked what the EU uses for its

669
00:25:26,470 --> 00:25:26,990
own office software.

670
00:25:28,010 --> 00:25:30,350
Because it must be interesting if you think

671
00:25:30,350 --> 00:25:32,770
that this monopolistic thing is a problem.

672
00:25:33,110 --> 00:25:34,930
So you imply that there is a forced

673
00:25:34,930 --> 00:25:36,950
situation in it, that you can not go

674
00:25:36,950 --> 00:25:37,450
to other things.

675
00:25:37,990 --> 00:25:39,330
But do you think that the EU itself

676
00:25:39,330 --> 00:25:41,210
is paying a lot of money to Microsoft

677
00:25:41,210 --> 00:25:43,610
to be allowed to use their software, which

678
00:25:43,610 --> 00:25:44,090
they do not need?

679
00:25:44,490 --> 00:25:45,170
– Of course it does.

680
00:25:45,610 --> 00:25:47,510
– It's so great.

681
00:25:47,810 --> 00:25:54,050
There is competition, and such a hand-raising

682
00:25:54,050 --> 00:25:57,450
of tone and theme in what you talk

683
00:25:57,450 --> 00:25:57,770
about.

684
00:25:58,010 --> 00:25:59,890
It is so vague and so selective.

685
00:26:00,350 --> 00:26:01,850
And it becomes selective almost anyway.

686
00:26:02,130 --> 00:26:04,070
Because you can not follow everything, so you

687
00:26:04,070 --> 00:26:04,590
have to choose.

688
00:26:04,690 --> 00:26:06,450
But when you start choosing, you start choosing

689
00:26:06,450 --> 00:26:09,130
what you like, what has a high media

690
00:26:09,130 --> 00:26:11,650
profile, or what you do not like yourself.

691
00:26:11,990 --> 00:26:14,510
There are so many doubts about such rules.

692
00:26:14,810 --> 00:26:17,930
– Moscow has also responded by saying that

693
00:26:17,930 --> 00:26:19,610
the EU should be put down.

694
00:26:20,470 --> 00:26:22,490
And I feel that he is a little

695
00:26:22,490 --> 00:26:24,770
right and a little wrong at the same

696
00:26:24,770 --> 00:26:25,090
time.

697
00:26:25,890 --> 00:26:27,330
Because the EU should be put down.

698
00:26:27,730 --> 00:26:29,590
But then I think that it is needed

699
00:26:29,590 --> 00:26:32,190
in some kind of format, some kind of

700
00:26:32,190 --> 00:26:35,950
organization that organizes Europe, and that gives Europe

701
00:26:35,950 --> 00:26:40,030
a collective power in some way.

702
00:26:40,430 --> 00:26:44,070
When it starts to become such global position

703
00:26:44,070 --> 00:26:44,590
wars around.

704
00:26:45,190 --> 00:26:48,070
12s and unions and so on.

705
00:26:48,490 --> 00:26:50,770
And then the question is, is it possible

706
00:26:50,770 --> 00:26:53,110
to reduce the EU to what it should

707
00:26:53,110 --> 00:26:53,330
be?

708
00:26:53,630 --> 00:26:56,550
Or should it be reduced to the advantage

709
00:26:56,550 --> 00:26:57,810
of starting something new and better?

710
00:26:58,350 --> 00:26:59,230
– No, you can say that.

711
00:26:59,570 --> 00:27:05,830
I have generally been so intuitively positive to

712
00:27:05,830 --> 00:27:07,870
things that go down from up, rather than

713
00:27:07,870 --> 00:27:08,530
up from down.

714
00:27:09,170 --> 00:27:11,050
And the EU has become a very up

715
00:27:11,050 --> 00:27:12,170
-and-down system.

716
00:27:12,670 --> 00:27:14,210
But what we have talked about a couple

717
00:27:14,210 --> 00:27:17,270
of times is this growing military cooperation in

718
00:27:17,270 --> 00:27:17,990
the Nordic countries.

719
00:27:18,190 --> 00:27:19,910
And with Great Britain and the Netherlands.

720
00:27:20,130 --> 00:27:22,290
– We suggest that Great Britain should join.

721
00:27:22,350 --> 00:27:23,190
And what did Great Britain do?

722
00:27:23,350 --> 00:27:23,710
They joined.

723
00:27:24,170 --> 00:27:26,490
– Everyone listens to their side.

724
00:27:26,910 --> 00:27:30,630
– No, but the reason that it works

725
00:27:30,630 --> 00:27:32,350
down from up and not up from down

726
00:27:32,350 --> 00:27:34,270
is that down from up you find that

727
00:27:34,270 --> 00:27:34,770
you know what?

728
00:27:35,410 --> 00:27:37,510
We have, right?

729
00:27:37,730 --> 00:27:40,550
In the Nordic countries there are geographic common

730
00:27:40,550 --> 00:27:41,350
interests.

731
00:27:41,350 --> 00:27:44,830
But culturally, things actually fit quite well together.

732
00:27:44,970 --> 00:27:46,110
And we see that Finland has done a

733
00:27:46,110 --> 00:27:47,790
lot of weird things on its world view

734
00:27:47,790 --> 00:27:48,290
system.

735
00:27:48,730 --> 00:27:49,950
And Sweden has done a lot of weird

736
00:27:49,950 --> 00:27:50,790
things industrially.

737
00:27:51,070 --> 00:27:52,290
And they have given it to Norway as

738
00:27:52,290 --> 00:27:52,390
well.

739
00:27:52,690 --> 00:27:54,150
And then it's like, you know what?

740
00:27:54,170 --> 00:27:55,570
This all fits quite well together.

741
00:27:55,810 --> 00:27:58,650
And then you merge it into a group

742
00:27:58,650 --> 00:28:00,990
where the compatibility at the bottom is quite

743
00:28:00,990 --> 00:28:01,290
good.

744
00:28:01,530 --> 00:28:04,830
And then you spend a few years integrating

745
00:28:04,830 --> 00:28:07,970
and formalizing and normalizing that cooperation.

746
00:28:08,510 --> 00:28:10,450
And then it either works, or it doesn't,

747
00:28:10,530 --> 00:28:10,650
right?

748
00:28:10,650 --> 00:28:12,810
But if it works, then you suddenly have

749
00:28:12,810 --> 00:28:15,290
an agreement to negotiate with.

750
00:28:15,530 --> 00:28:16,370
And maybe you should cooperate.

751
00:28:16,670 --> 00:28:20,650
It's not such a big cultural or physical

752
00:28:20,650 --> 00:28:21,710
distance to Poland.

753
00:28:22,230 --> 00:28:26,130
The Baltic countries sound like a natural connection.

754
00:28:26,410 --> 00:28:28,210
And Germany maybe, who knows, right?

755
00:28:28,490 --> 00:28:31,450
But it grows down from up instead of

756
00:28:31,450 --> 00:28:32,090
down from down.

757
00:28:32,470 --> 00:28:35,650
And you could achieve that within the EU

758
00:28:35,650 --> 00:28:35,970
as well.

759
00:28:38,650 --> 00:28:42,830
The Swiss neutrality is one thing, but that

760
00:28:42,830 --> 00:28:45,590
they have a part in Austria and Germany

761
00:28:45,590 --> 00:28:48,230
and Italy is also quite obvious.

762
00:28:48,730 --> 00:28:50,530
And they even have some, right?

763
00:28:50,670 --> 00:28:54,870
From the old Austrian-Hungarian empire and such.

764
00:28:55,090 --> 00:28:56,470
There are some cultural roots.

765
00:28:56,670 --> 00:28:59,850
And you see some interesting maps from time

766
00:28:59,850 --> 00:29:03,650
to time with voice patterns that break with

767
00:29:03,650 --> 00:29:05,130
established borders today.

768
00:29:05,130 --> 00:29:07,170
But where you see that, oh damn, this

769
00:29:07,170 --> 00:29:09,550
matches the old empire that was there.

770
00:29:09,810 --> 00:29:13,150
Because there are cultural remains that are still

771
00:29:13,150 --> 00:29:13,390
there, right?

772
00:29:14,030 --> 00:29:16,310
And to build on that kind of thing,

773
00:29:16,630 --> 00:29:17,890
that you see some common ground, and it

774
00:29:17,890 --> 00:29:19,690
doesn't have to be the same organizations everywhere.

775
00:29:20,010 --> 00:29:22,310
In some places you cooperate on trade and

776
00:29:22,310 --> 00:29:24,410
business, in other places you cooperate on defense,

777
00:29:24,950 --> 00:29:28,550
third place you cooperate on foreign policy, or

778
00:29:28,550 --> 00:29:29,170
what do I know, right?

779
00:29:29,510 --> 00:29:31,050
It gives some meaning.

780
00:29:31,350 --> 00:29:33,110
And then you get a conglomerate of these

781
00:29:33,110 --> 00:29:34,370
things, and then you find out that maybe

782
00:29:34,370 --> 00:29:37,030
some of these areas can formalize some cooperation

783
00:29:37,030 --> 00:29:38,930
between them, and then it grows little by

784
00:29:38,930 --> 00:29:39,050
little.

785
00:29:39,570 --> 00:29:41,450
And then you get something quite different than

786
00:29:41,450 --> 00:29:43,370
what the EU is, or tries to be.

787
00:29:43,750 --> 00:29:46,070
But I don't feel that the EU necessarily

788
00:29:46,070 --> 00:29:47,130
is what they want to be.

789
00:29:47,290 --> 00:29:50,390
It's just that they are the natural consequence

790
00:29:50,390 --> 00:29:50,750
of themselves.

791
00:29:51,710 --> 00:29:54,230
Yes, but you had a driving force in

792
00:29:54,230 --> 00:29:56,250
the EU, at least in the two generations

793
00:29:56,250 --> 00:30:00,190
now, which aims at a very clear federalization.

794
00:30:00,570 --> 00:30:01,550
So they want a union.

795
00:30:01,550 --> 00:30:02,130
Yes.

796
00:30:02,450 --> 00:30:05,230
And they want a union where the union,

797
00:30:05,770 --> 00:30:08,690
that federal part of it, takes over foreign

798
00:30:08,690 --> 00:30:11,070
policy, monetary policy, and all sorts of things.

799
00:30:11,330 --> 00:30:12,690
It gives itself for a large part to

800
00:30:12,690 --> 00:30:13,350
the monetary policy.

801
00:30:13,770 --> 00:30:19,230
But it is interesting the relationship between federation

802
00:30:19,230 --> 00:30:20,250
and confederation.

803
00:30:20,790 --> 00:30:23,430
Switzerland is an example of a confederation, where

804
00:30:23,430 --> 00:30:26,630
you have cantons, which are nominally independent, or

805
00:30:26,630 --> 00:30:30,550
have their own legislature, their own parliaments, and

806
00:30:30,550 --> 00:30:30,730
all that.

807
00:30:30,950 --> 00:30:35,150
But they give power to the federal to

808
00:30:35,150 --> 00:30:36,610
handle foreign policy.

809
00:30:36,790 --> 00:30:38,450
And that's about it, if I understand Switzerland

810
00:30:38,450 --> 00:30:38,690
right.

811
00:30:38,810 --> 00:30:40,070
But that means that you have a federal

812
00:30:40,070 --> 00:30:43,230
state that is quite firmly bound down.

813
00:30:43,490 --> 00:30:46,270
In contrast to the United States, which is

814
00:30:46,270 --> 00:30:49,030
not a voluntary cooperation, compared to a certain

815
00:30:49,030 --> 00:30:50,930
civil war 150 years ago.

816
00:30:53,410 --> 00:30:56,850
There was a degree of volunteerism among some

817
00:30:56,850 --> 00:30:58,290
of these states in the United States, but

818
00:30:58,290 --> 00:31:01,670
those who did not say yes, they were

819
00:31:01,670 --> 00:31:03,510
forced to do something about it.

820
00:31:03,650 --> 00:31:05,410
Yes, the idea is that you can not

821
00:31:05,410 --> 00:31:06,250
sign up again, right?

822
00:31:06,470 --> 00:31:08,690
And that is very clearly stated in both

823
00:31:08,690 --> 00:31:10,490
the Constitution and the Civil War, and all

824
00:31:10,490 --> 00:31:10,590
that.

825
00:31:10,830 --> 00:31:12,650
Then there is one or the other guy

826
00:31:12,650 --> 00:31:14,150
in Texas who thinks that Texas has an

827
00:31:14,150 --> 00:31:17,370
exception here, but that's his own thing.

828
00:31:17,730 --> 00:31:20,290
But the question is, what could you do

829
00:31:20,290 --> 00:31:20,770
in Europe?

830
00:31:21,850 --> 00:31:23,690
It is obvious that there are some natural

831
00:31:23,690 --> 00:31:25,290
unions in Europe, right?

832
00:31:26,510 --> 00:31:28,770
The Benelux countries have something in common.

833
00:31:29,150 --> 00:31:29,590
Definitely.

834
00:31:30,290 --> 00:31:32,330
At least with half of Belgium.

835
00:31:33,410 --> 00:31:34,870
The other half has something in common with

836
00:31:34,870 --> 00:31:35,110
France.

837
00:31:36,550 --> 00:31:39,490
The Baltic countries have something in common with

838
00:31:39,490 --> 00:31:39,870
each other.

839
00:31:40,250 --> 00:31:42,510
They have some connections to the north, and

840
00:31:42,510 --> 00:31:45,490
some to Ukraine, Poland, that direction.

841
00:31:46,030 --> 00:31:48,970
And one thing in common that you have

842
00:31:48,970 --> 00:31:51,470
in almost all of Europe is the problem

843
00:31:51,470 --> 00:31:52,250
with Russia.

844
00:31:53,210 --> 00:31:55,830
Yes, it is a focusing factor for the

845
00:31:55,830 --> 00:31:55,930
time.

846
00:31:56,230 --> 00:31:59,130
Yes, I think that the Baltics are perhaps

847
00:31:59,130 --> 00:32:00,690
the ones who know the most about it,

848
00:32:00,830 --> 00:32:03,630
and who perhaps have the most understanding of

849
00:32:03,630 --> 00:32:04,430
what it actually is.

850
00:32:05,010 --> 00:32:06,930
Yes, of those who are involved today.

851
00:32:07,950 --> 00:32:11,370
I would like to mention Poland here too,

852
00:32:11,550 --> 00:32:13,110
who have a little experience with it.

853
00:32:13,410 --> 00:32:13,830
And Finland.

854
00:32:15,590 --> 00:32:18,330
And it should be unnecessary to mention Ukraine

855
00:32:18,330 --> 00:32:19,210
and Georgia and such.

856
00:32:19,210 --> 00:32:23,250
They are not EU members, but it is

857
00:32:23,250 --> 00:32:24,170
worth mentioning.

858
00:32:24,550 --> 00:32:26,670
Because you get a little blind for your

859
00:32:26,670 --> 00:32:29,330
own time and forget the history a little.

860
00:32:29,570 --> 00:32:34,470
But it is Moscow's bullshit for 200-300

861
00:32:34,470 --> 00:32:38,630
years now, where the only constant has been

862
00:32:38,630 --> 00:32:40,830
that it is dangerous to be a neighbor

863
00:32:40,830 --> 00:32:42,470
with what Moscow controls.

864
00:32:42,830 --> 00:32:44,910
And if you look at the construction of

865
00:32:44,910 --> 00:32:49,070
Russia today, it is a kind of cavalcade

866
00:32:49,070 --> 00:32:52,630
over earlier sovereign nations, which are now districts

867
00:32:52,630 --> 00:32:57,450
and oblasts and independent large-scale republics within

868
00:32:57,450 --> 00:32:58,770
the Russian Empire.

869
00:32:59,110 --> 00:33:01,650
And you see now being an independent country,

870
00:33:01,810 --> 00:33:05,350
whether it is Ukraine or Georgia or other

871
00:33:05,350 --> 00:33:05,990
neighboring countries.

872
00:33:08,570 --> 00:33:13,630
Chechnya, for example, is very naturally its own

873
00:33:13,630 --> 00:33:14,310
sovereign country.

874
00:33:14,310 --> 00:33:16,150
But it is not.

875
00:33:16,450 --> 00:33:19,830
And when one or the other collapse comes

876
00:33:19,830 --> 00:33:22,030
in Moscow at some point, which I have

877
00:33:22,030 --> 00:33:24,850
to admit that I hope happens, because there

878
00:33:24,850 --> 00:33:28,190
is so much injustice in Moscow's name.

879
00:33:28,570 --> 00:33:33,290
Yes, they are often referred to as Moscovites,

880
00:33:33,470 --> 00:33:33,570
right?

881
00:33:33,890 --> 00:33:36,390
Because these are the ones who stand for

882
00:33:36,390 --> 00:33:40,010
all kinds of foreign affairs, pressure and make

883
00:33:40,010 --> 00:33:41,310
wars and all that.

884
00:33:41,510 --> 00:33:43,870
While the rest of the more rural Russia

885
00:33:43,870 --> 00:33:46,010
is not so involved in that.

886
00:33:47,510 --> 00:33:49,710
Some of the most absurd, and this is

887
00:33:49,710 --> 00:33:52,870
something that you almost have to have a

888
00:33:52,870 --> 00:33:56,210
historical view of it to interpret things correctly

889
00:33:56,210 --> 00:33:56,570
today.

890
00:33:56,930 --> 00:34:01,330
But now we constantly hear such reports from

891
00:34:01,330 --> 00:34:02,050
the Baltics, for example.

892
00:34:02,450 --> 00:34:04,810
So in Estonia you have a border town,

893
00:34:05,210 --> 00:34:06,370
is it Narva?

894
00:34:06,670 --> 00:34:07,530
Yes, the same frequency.

895
00:34:07,830 --> 00:34:10,710
Anyway, there is a significant Russian population in

896
00:34:10,710 --> 00:34:12,090
that town, 30 percent or something.

897
00:34:12,090 --> 00:34:13,770
But it is traditionally an Estonian town.

898
00:34:14,070 --> 00:34:16,510
But Estonia and the whole Baltic were just

899
00:34:16,510 --> 00:34:18,469
occupied by the Soviets in the Second World

900
00:34:18,469 --> 00:34:18,690
War.

901
00:34:18,969 --> 00:34:20,830
And it was their independence for a few

902
00:34:20,830 --> 00:34:22,350
years, and then BAM!

903
00:34:22,449 --> 00:34:23,270
And then they were gone, and then they

904
00:34:23,270 --> 00:34:24,210
were behind the cover.

905
00:34:24,590 --> 00:34:26,850
And then Russia has thought that, yes, how

906
00:34:26,850 --> 00:34:27,690
are we going to do this permanently?

907
00:34:27,870 --> 00:34:29,370
We are forced to move a lot of

908
00:34:29,370 --> 00:34:30,989
Estonians to the other side of Russia.

909
00:34:31,230 --> 00:34:32,210
And then we move a lot of Russians

910
00:34:32,210 --> 00:34:32,670
in there.

911
00:34:32,850 --> 00:34:34,730
And then you have problems in generations afterwards,

912
00:34:34,929 --> 00:34:35,029
right?

913
00:34:35,110 --> 00:34:36,570
And they have done it everywhere.

914
00:34:37,090 --> 00:34:39,090
Done in Ukraine, done in Poland.

915
00:34:39,610 --> 00:34:42,250
After the Second World War, what did Russia

916
00:34:42,250 --> 00:34:42,949
insist on?

917
00:34:43,310 --> 00:34:46,710
Yes, we would like to move Poland 200

918
00:34:46,710 --> 00:34:47,389
kilometers west.

919
00:34:47,530 --> 00:34:48,429
Can we do that, please?

920
00:34:48,830 --> 00:34:49,850
Yes, we have to do that.

921
00:34:49,949 --> 00:34:51,909
And then you just move, you move the

922
00:34:51,909 --> 00:34:52,070
country.

923
00:34:52,250 --> 00:34:54,130
So there are, like, large Polish areas that

924
00:34:54,130 --> 00:34:57,550
just fall into Russia and become ethnic borders

925
00:34:57,550 --> 00:34:58,370
for Poles.

926
00:34:58,450 --> 00:34:59,430
And then you move them out.

927
00:34:59,610 --> 00:35:00,730
And then there are some German areas that

928
00:35:00,730 --> 00:35:01,930
are taken over, and then you move the

929
00:35:01,930 --> 00:35:02,430
Germans out.

930
00:35:02,610 --> 00:35:06,410
Then there is Kaliningrad, which was just taken

931
00:35:06,410 --> 00:35:09,270
over as a Russian enclave out there.

932
00:35:09,270 --> 00:35:11,830
So there are some problems today.

933
00:35:12,270 --> 00:35:15,290
But just, you have done this systematically and

934
00:35:15,290 --> 00:35:17,610
in the long run, and with a kind

935
00:35:17,610 --> 00:35:18,690
of eternal perspective, right?

936
00:35:19,190 --> 00:35:21,950
But I experience that one thing is that

937
00:35:21,950 --> 00:35:25,310
Russian apologism you see in some places.

938
00:35:25,770 --> 00:35:27,590
But it is also the politics, the a

939
00:35:27,590 --> 00:35:29,330
little bit so naivistic politics that is carried

940
00:35:29,330 --> 00:35:29,650
out in the West.

941
00:35:30,070 --> 00:35:32,930
That you kind of, you think they want

942
00:35:32,930 --> 00:35:35,490
to, and it's just, if we talk together,

943
00:35:35,590 --> 00:35:36,310
this will be good, right?

944
00:35:36,690 --> 00:35:39,290
And then they use completely different and completely

945
00:35:39,290 --> 00:35:42,670
unreasonable means, systematically, and over time, and over

946
00:35:42,670 --> 00:35:46,870
generations, and centuries, which is completely unthinkable on

947
00:35:46,870 --> 00:35:49,250
the Western side of this.

948
00:35:49,370 --> 00:35:51,170
Because you have, like, you have put aside

949
00:35:51,170 --> 00:35:54,210
that empire thing, somewhat at least, and thought

950
00:35:54,210 --> 00:35:55,630
that, you know what, if we deal with

951
00:35:55,630 --> 00:35:57,670
each other, then this will work out.

952
00:35:58,150 --> 00:36:01,930
But when you are at the moment and

953
00:36:01,930 --> 00:36:04,590
you see that, damn, there is a Russian

954
00:36:04,590 --> 00:36:08,530
minority in the east, in Estonia, which, well,

955
00:36:08,950 --> 00:36:10,850
they get a little annoyed, right?

956
00:36:11,110 --> 00:36:13,130
And they feel inferior, and they listen to

957
00:36:13,130 --> 00:36:15,630
Russian media, and there is a bit of

958
00:36:15,630 --> 00:36:16,210
a fight, and so on.

959
00:36:16,210 --> 00:36:17,470
So you have a little understanding that maybe

960
00:36:17,470 --> 00:36:18,570
Russia has to intervene there.

961
00:36:18,690 --> 00:36:20,510
Which was exactly the same incident that happened

962
00:36:20,510 --> 00:36:22,370
in Crimea, in Donbass.

963
00:36:22,670 --> 00:36:24,770
But the result is just a long-term

964
00:36:24,770 --> 00:36:25,250
strategy.

965
00:36:25,590 --> 00:36:27,050
You have pushed the Russians in where they

966
00:36:27,050 --> 00:36:27,770
were not before.

967
00:36:28,350 --> 00:36:29,650
Crimea was not Russian at all.

968
00:36:30,050 --> 00:36:32,970
Before Catherine the Great came in, and then

969
00:36:32,970 --> 00:36:34,750
you threw out all the Cossacks who lived

970
00:36:34,750 --> 00:36:35,990
there, and then you sent a lot of

971
00:36:35,990 --> 00:36:39,130
Russians in, and then you have a kind

972
00:36:39,130 --> 00:36:42,550
of eternal spice barrel through the centuries afterwards.

973
00:36:43,350 --> 00:36:44,990
I was about to say, you know that

974
00:36:44,990 --> 00:36:47,290
you are actually arguing for re-migration in

975
00:36:47,290 --> 00:36:47,810
every barrel.

976
00:36:49,390 --> 00:36:50,610
Yes, you can say that.

977
00:36:51,590 --> 00:36:54,010
I am very little supporter of that approach

978
00:36:54,010 --> 00:36:54,430
to things.

979
00:36:55,230 --> 00:36:58,950
But I do not necessarily argue for re

980
00:36:58,950 --> 00:37:02,230
-migration, because now, despite everything, there are a

981
00:37:02,230 --> 00:37:04,690
lot of Russian-speaking and so-called Russian

982
00:37:04,690 --> 00:37:06,750
-loyal who are born and raised in Crimea,

983
00:37:07,210 --> 00:37:08,870
and in Donbass, and wherever it may be.

984
00:37:09,190 --> 00:37:12,330
And that is not something that comes without

985
00:37:12,330 --> 00:37:13,790
a certain set of rights.

986
00:37:15,790 --> 00:37:18,390
It is obviously not just to make up

987
00:37:18,390 --> 00:37:20,150
a historical injustice that is 200 years old,

988
00:37:20,430 --> 00:37:22,570
and just move all the descendants back to

989
00:37:22,570 --> 00:37:23,870
where the ancestors came from.

990
00:37:24,310 --> 00:37:25,770
You can obviously not do that.

991
00:37:26,070 --> 00:37:28,550
But what you can do, is to have

992
00:37:28,550 --> 00:37:30,050
the history with you, and be aware of

993
00:37:30,050 --> 00:37:32,630
what has happened, and interpret things in light

994
00:37:32,630 --> 00:37:32,830
of that.

995
00:37:32,830 --> 00:37:34,470
And I think that must be reasonable to

996
00:37:34,470 --> 00:37:34,630
do.

997
00:37:34,970 --> 00:37:39,190
And it must be reasonable to be increasingly

998
00:37:39,190 --> 00:37:42,030
less naive about Russian ambitions.

999
00:37:42,770 --> 00:37:42,910
Yes.

1000
00:37:43,310 --> 00:37:47,170
But that may become a side track for

1001
00:37:47,170 --> 00:37:48,510
the exact topic in this episode.

1002
00:37:49,830 --> 00:37:51,450
A little trip on a side road, that

1003
00:37:51,450 --> 00:37:52,250
is not unknown to us.

1004
00:37:52,430 --> 00:37:53,270
No, it is not.

1005
00:37:53,570 --> 00:37:56,710
But we may call it for today's dose.

1006
00:37:57,370 --> 00:37:57,890
Have a good day.

1007
00:37:58,110 --> 00:37:58,350
Have it.

1008
00:37:58,350 --> 00:38:05,750
Thank you for listening to Sidelinja podcast.

1009
00:38:06,190 --> 00:38:08,670
Feel free to talk about us, like, share

1010
00:38:08,670 --> 00:38:11,750
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1011
00:38:11,750 --> 00:38:14,490
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1012
00:38:23,250 --> 00:38:27,490
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1013
00:38:27,490 --> 00:38:29,790
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1014
00:38:29,790 --> 00:38:33,330
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