WEBVTT

NOTE
This file was generated by Descript 

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Alan: so I've been remote working for,

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I left my corporate job

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in

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2002, 2003.

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That was, Sun Microsystems,

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which obviously don't exist anymore.

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Not, not in the way they

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used to.

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Anyway, I guess there's shelf
the shadow of their former self.

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and

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So I was, I, I sold the little web
app that I made then, and I worked for

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that company for a little bit, but it was

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pretty much there was an

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office in a cool part of London.

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And it was.

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it was.

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going,

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if you

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want to hang in London,
it was those, the owner of

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the company lived

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like a few minutes walk away
from the office and it was like

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a four person, five person.

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And we kind of just

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went to

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the office if we felt like it.

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And so I think from that

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moment on,

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I've never

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been a,

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an office person.

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I just have a, either it's been,

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I go in, because I want
some social interactivity or

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there's something that we
need to talk about together.

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It's just easier,
especially, you know, video

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conferencing.

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It wasn't really as good or It didn't
really exist in the same way back then.

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And there was the, the, the
previous job I had here was through

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the, there was the first time

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since then that I've actually
been like daily going into an

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office and it would took
some getting used to

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Mario: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Alan: And I think that the thing

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is

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for remote

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working is a

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company has

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to, they have to buy into
it like big time, not

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a dipping their toes in and say, well,

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you

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know, it's not really working.

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You've either got to

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commit to it and change

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your working practices to,
to take it remote first.

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Or,

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you know, there's gotta be a, a definite

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goal in

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mind, rather than just

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seeing what

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happens, whether that's like a hybrid goal

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or,

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You know, some kind of flexible system,
but it has to be a stated thing that

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you want to make work rather than just,
oh, well, it didn't work out right.

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Mario: Yeah.

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Yeah, for sure.

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So for now I'm having to commute a
couple of days a week and next week

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it's going to be three days a week.

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And so, Yeah.

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I don't think they are planning to fully
support remote work for now, even, even

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though they've had a long time to evaluate
it and to see the effectiveness, because

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work has gotten done, you know, everyone's
been working and you know, it hasn't

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really made that much of a difference.

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And certainly for certain
specifically for certain types

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of jobs, so certain roles, right.

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That make it super easy to
just do the work remotely.

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You, don't have to be in the office,
but they're not even differentiating

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that they, they they're throwing a
blanket statement and everyone has

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to come into the office eventually.

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So, I'm working on that though.

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I'm actively looking for a different
role somewhere else and I'm not planning

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on staying there for very long time.

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So

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Alan: I mean,

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Mario: I've been there for a long
time already, so I it's time to move

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Alan: you, you know, there's, there's
no one knows that you know what,

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that, what will happen kind of thing.

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You can make very strong predictions
about how they're dealing

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with this.

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Right.

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So,

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Mario: Yep.

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Yep.

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Alan: Yeah.

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I mean, I,

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I, I saw her on the news about, you know,

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apple saying that, you know,
it's like, we're, we will not be

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becoming a remote first company.

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Right.

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Pretty much.

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I

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mean, you,

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you, it's a strange one because

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I guess, you

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know, they've just spent all of this

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money on

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that

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campus, that gorgeous building.

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And

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Mario: Yeah.

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Alan: it, I can't blame them
if I had spent all that on

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that.

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And I think apple has such a, a, a

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distinct culture goal that, that
it's sad in one way That you know,

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they, they seem to not be willing

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to, to find some

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medium.

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But I,

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if, if I lived

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close, I'd probably want to.

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go into that office.

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That was probably a a

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strong desire to

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go there if I was there
because you know, the

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facilities and things

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are somewhat different, once you've

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tasted

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the flexibility of remote work Even after
it's hybrid or whatever, then it's really

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difficult to go back to

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thinking that you

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have to be in a particular
place at a particular

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time.

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So many days a week, it's
like, well, I, it always kills

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me that I don't

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know

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how

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people get things done because

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how do they,

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I it's, yeah.

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When I was going to start to going

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into the office again, every day
as a real, real job, I guess.

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I,

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was, I, I don't know how all of the things
that I was doing, I don't know when I'm

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supposed to do them anymore

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because they just slot into
natural ebbs and flows of your day.

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But to be put on the spot and say, no,
you will be here a particular time to.

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do a

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particular thing.

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It's like, but what if
I don't want to do that?

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Or what if it's not the
right time for me to do

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that?

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Right.

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It, it felt such a

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I guess if you've always

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done that that's normal and you don't

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question it so much, but when
you've not done it for so

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long, and then someone's put
in this position, it's like,

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why.

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Mario: Yeah, Yeah.

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and I can understand if a certain
role requires that you are

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physically present at a location.

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Right.

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And I can see apple, for example,
they, they build hardware, right.

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They design hardware.

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So I can imagine that's, you
know, you can't do all of that

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remotely a hundred percent.

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You have to be present.

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and there's I don't even, know, what,
you know, kind of work really requires

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to do that I mean, I can imagine, but,
but I can only imagine that you cannot

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be a hundred percent remote if you're,
if your role is, you know, designing

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hardware and testing things And working
with hardware, but, but there are certain

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roles, That You know, lend
themselves to be remote if you're

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just writing software and you're
just, you know, coding all the time.

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I mean, why not?

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You can be anywhere and
meetings are conducted virtually

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anyways, especially nowadays.

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Alan: Yeah.

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we kind of got used to that.

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I mean, they're not necessarily optimal.

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And I

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think I think there's still a lot
of learning to be done with regards

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to how we approach online meetings

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and

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things.

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So but again, that's, that's,
that's one of the things I

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want to try and solve with dot

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plan or at least provide
an alternative that is,

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It offers different types of benefits.

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I mean, the, the big goal for for
dot plan for me was to try to try to

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reproduce the serendipity
that happens in an office.

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And, I think, that was

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a big shock for me

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about returning to office life
was there's a lot that you

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miss by being.

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Completely remote.

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And I didn't realize

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that so much before I went back

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to it and just people talking
on a phone call and the other

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side of the

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office, you've you

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pick up things and you're
like, are we working with them?

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Hold on, who who's

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doing that?

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And I should probably be
involved because I know

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something about that, but because
you weren't involved with it,

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sometimes it's not known, are

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you again, if you're

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talking to somebody about a technology,
somebody across the other side

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of the office is like, hold on.

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I've I've I know about that.

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And that just

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gets lost often in remote work,
because everybody is doing their thing.

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And unless it's assigned to

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you, or unless it's made explicit that

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we're looking into a thing, then
you just don't know about it.

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And that's

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that, that,

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so the previous

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company that.

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I

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spent, like six or seven years
working for remotely, I Three

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of the staff at a conference.

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And, but the

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rest of them that the other 30 something
people I never met, we, I, I never

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even spoke to the majority of them.

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It was purely text-based

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communication.

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And

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it's great.

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You know, I, I have some

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really good friends.

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I know it was

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probably the best working environment

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that I've ever had in terms of trust and

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understanding

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between each other.

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But it was, there was a lot

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of serendipity lost there because you just
don't know what's going on, unless you

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become communicative in a particular way,
you just disappear into the background.

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And so th the, the whole, the whole
premise of me starting to up plan was I

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want to be able to make it easy for people
to share what they're working on, what's

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going on without making
it like formal, you

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know, without me writing a report
saying we are thinking about

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this thing, and if anybody has

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any input, please, that it's
like, well, I'm looking at this.

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And then people.

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That's interesting to me.

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So I wanted to try to

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form a different way of that

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serendipitous communication.

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That's like a in , non direct

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Mario: Right, right.

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Indirect, indirect.

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Alan: Non explicit.

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So it's, there's still some ways
to go, but it's interesting with

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it kind of skipping all over the

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place today.

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But I had a,

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We had some communication with
one of the beta users here

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in Fukuoka and his explicit,

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Reason

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for wanting to try this out, try using

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dot plan was he wasn't, didn't feel
on top of what his stuff we're doing.

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and it's like, well, that's exactly
what we're trying to solve it.

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So he.

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I don't want to say

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hesitant, but he was somewhat
unconvinced when we started the trial.

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He's like, I'm happy to try it
because I want to solve this.

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I want

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to make this better.

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I don't know if what you're doing
is the answer, but I'm happy

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to try it, to see what happens.

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His big worry was that his
staff wouldn't do this.

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You know, it, or they would take
it with you know, begrudgingly

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do it rather than buy into it.

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And so we were talking to him about a
feature that we're trialing with him

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only him because he had a specific
request and I'm like, I'm not sure

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if this is part of this needs to be
part of the product in the future,

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but I'm willing to give it a go and

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see how it fits in.

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So it's this small feature
that I added for him.

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And it's just behind a
feature flag so he can use it.

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And so we said, well, you
know, how is the other thing?

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And he's like, oh, that's great.

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You know, that.

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Almost like not a problem anymore.

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I'm more interested in this new feature
and the fact that the dot plan is.

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Providing the benefit and it's solving
that problem that he had already.

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He's already thinking about the next

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challenges.

00:10:00.450 --> 00:10:02.940
And that was, that was
a big like, oh, hold on.

00:10:03.090 --> 00:10:06.540
The fact that he's now reliant on
this, the company has kind of accepted

00:10:06.540 --> 00:10:06.840
this.

00:10:07.050 --> 00:10:08.220
This is just part of the way

00:10:08.220 --> 00:10:10.290
they work now was like, oh

00:10:10.290 --> 00:10:10.530
wow.

00:10:10.560 --> 00:10:13.410
He's, it's weird because you now looking

00:10:13.410 --> 00:10:16.260
at the next problems and he's
almost like skipping ahead.

00:10:16.290 --> 00:10:18.030
Oh, it would be better if
we, if we could do this and

00:10:18.030 --> 00:10:18.840
say, yo, hold on.

00:10:18.990 --> 00:10:20.250
I've got to convince everybody else at

00:10:20.250 --> 00:10:21.240
this first step first.

00:10:21.780 --> 00:10:22.380
So

00:10:22.665 --> 00:10:23.505
Mario: Well, that's nice.

00:10:23.730 --> 00:10:24.150
Alan: absolutely.

00:10:24.150 --> 00:10:24.932
It was really like

00:10:25.112 --> 00:10:25.742
validating

00:10:25.742 --> 00:10:28.569
felt very reassuring to
think that especially someone

00:10:28.569 --> 00:10:32.109
who was hesitant and unconvinced to start

00:10:32.109 --> 00:10:35.033
off with and especially, it was like,
there's going to be like pulling

00:10:35.033 --> 00:10:39.563
teeth, getting my staff to do this,
but they're doing it and they seem to

00:10:39.563 --> 00:10:42.340
have so the next step is we're
trying to arrange another meeting

00:10:42.340 --> 00:10:43.885
to go in and talk to him in

00:10:43.885 --> 00:10:44.395
person.

00:10:45.940 --> 00:10:49.960
Hopefully try and get his staff's feedback
as well, because it's, it's great.

00:10:49.960 --> 00:10:51.790
If it solves his problem, I want

00:10:51.790 --> 00:10:53.560
to know how the staff feel about it now.

00:10:53.590 --> 00:10:56.080
That's the next thing
we need to understand.

00:10:56.080 --> 00:10:59.050
So it's like, it's great
if he's happy, but I don't

00:10:59.490 --> 00:11:00.250
the staff happy as

00:11:00.250 --> 00:11:00.520
well.

00:11:00.970 --> 00:11:01.420
So

00:11:01.510 --> 00:11:03.468
that's yeah, it felt really good to

00:11:03.618 --> 00:11:03.848
get

00:11:03.848 --> 00:11:04.415
that that

00:11:04.415 --> 00:11:07.605
just that validation of like,
yeah, of course it's working.

00:11:09.615 --> 00:11:10.425
So that was exciting.

00:11:10.425 --> 00:11:12.165
That was a good bit of new this news this

00:11:12.165 --> 00:11:12.405
week,

00:11:13.280 --> 00:11:14.030
Mario: That's awesome.

00:11:14.150 --> 00:11:15.680
Can you describe the feature?

00:11:15.750 --> 00:11:16.190
Are you at a

00:11:16.245 --> 00:11:18.109
Alan: the feature that
that we've built for him.

00:11:18.139 --> 00:11:18.769
Yeah, sure.

00:11:19.019 --> 00:11:20.869
I mean, it's the,

00:11:21.229 --> 00:11:22.099
it's, it's pretty simple.

00:11:22.099 --> 00:11:23.299
It's, it's a time tracker.

00:11:23.299 --> 00:11:24.289
It's a timecard system.

00:11:24.529 --> 00:11:25.189
So

00:11:25.206 --> 00:11:29.776
Japan, I may have mentioned this
before, but Japan has a labor law rule

00:11:29.836 --> 00:11:30.976
that if you're running

00:11:30.976 --> 00:11:31.336
less than.

00:11:32.146 --> 00:11:33.466
10 million yen.

00:11:33.556 --> 00:11:34.656
If it's an office job, if your

00:11:34.656 --> 00:11:36.286
unit learned that less than 10 million yen

00:11:36.286 --> 00:11:37.466
per year, a

00:11:37.646 --> 00:11:41.713
hundred K or, and you're not a
director level employee then you

00:11:41.713 --> 00:11:43.243
have to keep timecards.

00:11:43.988 --> 00:11:44.228
Mario: Yeah.

00:11:44.288 --> 00:11:45.668
I remember you mentioned mentioned that.

00:11:45.818 --> 00:11:46.298
Yeah.

00:11:46.873 --> 00:11:48.673
Alan: so I mean, it's to stop overwork

00:11:48.673 --> 00:11:52.403
and stop people being taken advantage
of in terms of their office hours.

00:11:52.471 --> 00:11:53.281
And he said, would they

00:11:53.281 --> 00:11:56.911
currently have a complicated system
with like, there's a clocking machine?

00:11:56.941 --> 00:11:58.981
There's people making notes of

00:11:58.981 --> 00:11:59.311
things.

00:11:59.311 --> 00:12:01.321
There's people writing messages

00:12:01.321 --> 00:12:01.561
in

00:12:01.591 --> 00:12:02.834
like a slack type thing.

00:12:02.834 --> 00:12:04.415
Yeah, I'm starting
work, I'm stopping work.

00:12:04.445 --> 00:12:06.365
And he's like this, this takes a lot of

00:12:06.365 --> 00:12:07.965
time to aggregate this.

00:12:08.032 --> 00:12:11.842
There's gotta be some something you
can, and because the way they're

00:12:11.842 --> 00:12:13.372
using dot plant is

00:12:13.393 --> 00:12:13.513
it.

00:12:13.870 --> 00:12:15.790
think I mentioned this before,
but again, different people seem

00:12:15.790 --> 00:12:19.060
to be using it in different ways
and I'm trying to now figure out

00:12:19.060 --> 00:12:21.160
what's the quote unquote right way.

00:12:21.170 --> 00:12:21.490
Right?

00:12:21.760 --> 00:12:22.683
There's it works

00:12:22.683 --> 00:12:24.213
differently for different people

00:12:24.213 --> 00:12:24.513
works

00:12:24.513 --> 00:12:26.463
well in different ways
for different people.

00:12:26.509 --> 00:12:29.794
But the way they're doing it is
they're doing a morning and an evening.

00:12:29.824 --> 00:12:32.824
Check-in so first thing in the
morning, they say, this is what I'm

00:12:32.824 --> 00:12:34.474
going to, this one they plan to do.

00:12:34.534 --> 00:12:36.424
And then in the evening,
this is what I've achieved.

00:12:36.456 --> 00:12:37.218
That's that

00:12:38.238 --> 00:12:40.788
I'll come back to an interesting
point about that in a second, but

00:12:40.862 --> 00:12:42.692
that's what they're doing
and that works well.

00:12:42.692 --> 00:12:45.872
So he's like, well, can't we
just say I'm starting work and

00:12:45.872 --> 00:12:47.942
then I'm stopping work
and record those times.

00:12:47.942 --> 00:12:49.022
And that gives us a,

00:12:49.028 --> 00:12:50.498
Like a recorded list of when

00:12:50.498 --> 00:12:51.698
people start and stopped work.

00:12:51.758 --> 00:12:52.448
Can we use that?

00:12:52.448 --> 00:12:53.018
And I'm like, well,

00:12:53.498 --> 00:12:55.718
that you don't necessarily know.

00:12:56.138 --> 00:12:57.458
I want to tie

00:12:57.458 --> 00:13:00.338
that to an official clock-in
and clock-out, but the certainly

00:13:00.368 --> 00:13:02.078
overlap there between the systems.

00:13:02.078 --> 00:13:02.318
Right.

00:13:02.738 --> 00:13:07.148
And I'm like, I, I didn't want
to build I didn't want to build a

00:13:07.148 --> 00:13:08.618
time-tracking system to be on that.

00:13:08.618 --> 00:13:12.068
That was like the, almost like
the opposite goal of dot plan.

00:13:12.068 --> 00:13:12.158
I

00:13:12.158 --> 00:13:15.488
wanted to produce something that
was, that didn't feel formal.

00:13:15.488 --> 00:13:17.408
Didn't feel like something you had to do.

00:13:17.408 --> 00:13:18.128
It was more of

00:13:18.128 --> 00:13:18.478
a,

00:13:18.488 --> 00:13:19.688
getting a benefit from it.

00:13:19.773 --> 00:13:21.033
But at the same time, but then I

00:13:21.033 --> 00:13:21.543
started

00:13:21.633 --> 00:13:24.603
thinking of the aspect,
you know, there's a lot of

00:13:24.628 --> 00:13:25.108
Movement

00:13:25.108 --> 00:13:25.648
behind,

00:13:26.368 --> 00:13:28.438
you know, recording what you've done as

00:13:28.438 --> 00:13:32.103
a productivity and you
know, personal tracking

00:13:32.103 --> 00:13:32.703
kind of tool.

00:13:32.703 --> 00:13:33.303
Like, you

00:13:33.303 --> 00:13:35.253
know, what's, how long
did I spend on that?

00:13:35.283 --> 00:13:38.283
And you know, yourself, you
know, I started to try doing

00:13:38.283 --> 00:13:39.393
like, time-blocking just

00:13:39.393 --> 00:13:40.083
to try to

00:13:40.083 --> 00:13:44.223
control the amount of what I
spent my time doing, because

00:13:44.223 --> 00:13:45.963
it's easy to either lose time

00:13:45.993 --> 00:13:48.140
on something that isn't important or,

00:13:48.207 --> 00:13:49.017
You know, I'll waste time.

00:13:49.767 --> 00:13:50.747
Looking at Twitter, right.

00:13:50.767 --> 00:13:50.917
Or

00:13:51.034 --> 00:13:51.804
or or just

00:13:51.804 --> 00:13:53.664
working too much, you know, that's
the other thing as well, you

00:13:53.664 --> 00:13:56.034
know, we, we, we've mentioned,
you know, things about just being

00:13:56.034 --> 00:13:58.914
able to be aware of how
much time you're spending.

00:13:59.154 --> 00:14:01.374
And I, so I kind of got back to this

00:14:01.441 --> 00:14:07.994
Came to this realization that it might
be relevant because if you're adding

00:14:08.024 --> 00:14:10.064
what you're working on, what you're

00:14:10.424 --> 00:14:14.984
doing and what you've achieved, then
being able to correlate this with

00:14:14.984 --> 00:14:19.874
some kind of time based system
that could be personal benefits

00:14:20.714 --> 00:14:22.274
as well as corporate benefits.

00:14:22.274 --> 00:14:22.454
Right.

00:14:22.454 --> 00:14:22.664
You know,

00:14:23.384 --> 00:14:28.353
so the socially something I was going
to maybe mention is I'm curious what you

00:14:28.353 --> 00:14:33.363
think about how you respond to people's
requests for features, because in this

00:14:33.363 --> 00:14:38.178
case, it's, you know, he said,
I'd really like a time-tracking

00:14:38.178 --> 00:14:39.378
system as part of this.

00:14:39.798 --> 00:14:41.808
And I like this, isn't
what I want to build.

00:14:41.808 --> 00:14:42.108
Right.

00:14:43.128 --> 00:14:45.978
I don't want to build a
clock-in and clock-out system.

00:14:45.978 --> 00:14:49.308
You know, this is not how I, I know
remote working doesn't work well, if

00:14:49.308 --> 00:14:53.538
I have to plug in at eight 30 in the
morning and clock out at six but at

00:14:53.538 --> 00:14:58.248
the same time, the more I thought about
it, I just let it bubble for quite a

00:14:58.248 --> 00:14:59.868
long time before agreeing to build it.

00:15:00.858 --> 00:15:02.088
I was like, let me think about this.

00:15:02.088 --> 00:15:05.679
I don't want to commit before I before
I understand the implications of

00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:09.549
this, but I also didn't want to say
no outright, but my first reaction

00:15:09.549 --> 00:15:10.479
was no, I'm not building that.

00:15:10.719 --> 00:15:14.199
And then before I, you know, that
that was going on in my head as like,

00:15:14.229 --> 00:15:15.219
there's no way I'm going to build that.

00:15:16.209 --> 00:15:18.729
And so I just said, you
know, let me think about this

00:15:18.729 --> 00:15:18.879
for

00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:19.179
awhile.

00:15:20.049 --> 00:15:23.469
And, and it took probably about
a week for me to convince myself

00:15:23.469 --> 00:15:25.569
that there might be something in

00:15:25.569 --> 00:15:25.719
it.

00:15:27.704 --> 00:15:35.114
And again, I don't know if it is,
but I kind of decided that the, the

00:15:35.744 --> 00:15:39.758
spending X amount of time, again, a
reasonable, I didn't I didn't want to

00:15:39.758 --> 00:15:42.698
just go down a rabbit hole and build
out this fully feature thing, but I

00:15:42.698 --> 00:15:45.493
scoped a very tight version of this.

00:15:45.591 --> 00:15:48.411
And I'm like, okay, if I built
this, is that useful to you?

00:15:48.891 --> 00:15:49.281
Yes.

00:15:49.401 --> 00:15:50.387
He said I'm like, okay.

00:15:50.417 --> 00:15:52.697
It's, it's very tightly scoped.

00:15:52.697 --> 00:15:55.577
It's not a full-on, you know,
time-tracking, it basically allows

00:15:55.577 --> 00:15:57.044
you to start and stop a timer.

00:15:57.115 --> 00:16:02.065
And either just a generic timer
or one related to a project that

00:16:02.065 --> 00:16:03.385
exists in the system already.

00:16:03.805 --> 00:16:09.085
So, you know, dot plan now I'm moving
to, like, the projects has been like a

00:16:09.085 --> 00:16:11.005
central part of how the interface works.

00:16:12.225 --> 00:16:17.015
And if you're a member of a project,
you can effectively start a timer on a

00:16:17.015 --> 00:16:18.935
project and at the time, and that's it.

00:16:18.935 --> 00:16:20.535
And it just gives you
a list of your times.

00:16:20.539 --> 00:16:23.539
The account owner can see
everybody's times and that's it.

00:16:24.109 --> 00:16:27.429
And so we turn that on for him this week.

00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:32.769
And so we will find out how useful
that is to him, but just in using

00:16:32.769 --> 00:16:34.809
that on my, for myself as well.

00:16:35.199 --> 00:16:38.758
I'm like this isn't, it doesn't
feel like it doesn't feel too heavy.

00:16:38.758 --> 00:16:41.504
It's super lightweight, just lives
in the, the menu bar at the top.

00:16:41.569 --> 00:16:45.379
And I feel like have this extra
quantitative data about myself.

00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:49.639
Now, what I've been doing is like,
I can see my, how I, the time I've

00:16:49.639 --> 00:16:51.469
spent and it doesn't feel invasive.

00:16:51.469 --> 00:16:52.549
It doesn't feel

00:16:52.556 --> 00:16:53.786
Like controlling or anything.

00:16:53.786 --> 00:16:55.847
It just feels informative for me.

00:16:56.027 --> 00:17:00.647
So I think there's something in it
and I don't know what that is yet, but

00:17:01.007 --> 00:17:03.715
it's been an interesting experiment to

00:17:03.955 --> 00:17:09.985
take somebody's request that I was
not convinced about and S and just

00:17:10.195 --> 00:17:11.575
iterate on it and play with it.

00:17:11.575 --> 00:17:14.245
And I, I've got like, so many
sketches here of like, okay,

00:17:14.245 --> 00:17:15.535
how can I make this work?

00:17:15.535 --> 00:17:19.255
That doesn't feel like I'm making
a time tracking system, right.

00:17:19.285 --> 00:17:21.835
I'm not, that's not what I'm
doing, but how can I incorporate

00:17:21.835 --> 00:17:24.895
those aspects into this and make
it feel part of the same product?

00:17:24.986 --> 00:17:27.956
And it's, it's worked out well so far.

00:17:27.956 --> 00:17:31.915
I think I say I'm, I'm still
not a hundred percent convinced,

00:17:31.975 --> 00:17:34.645
but I'm like 90% convinced.

00:17:36.715 --> 00:17:38.845
So I'm curious to know, like,
so say for instance, you know,

00:17:38.845 --> 00:17:39.865
someone comes to,

00:17:40.245 --> 00:17:43.525
you with Fusioncast and says, you
know, it would be great if it did

00:17:43.525 --> 00:17:43.855
this.

00:17:44.155 --> 00:17:44.545
And you're

00:17:44.545 --> 00:17:45.745
like, that's not on my

00:17:45.745 --> 00:17:46.645
roadmap at all.

00:17:46.645 --> 00:17:48.805
I'm not really interested in doing

00:17:48.805 --> 00:17:49.195
that.

00:17:49.615 --> 00:17:50.725
What would you do

00:17:50.725 --> 00:17:50.995
with that

00:17:51.764 --> 00:17:52.214
Mario: Yeah.

00:17:52.784 --> 00:17:53.264
Yeah.

00:17:53.294 --> 00:17:56.656
It's a tricky, it's a tricky
thing to consider those

00:17:56.656 --> 00:17:59.776
requests and give them a weight.

00:17:59.866 --> 00:18:00.226
Right?

00:18:00.796 --> 00:18:02.129
Give them relevance.

00:18:02.138 --> 00:18:06.358
I think the key thing is I think
you, you touched on that the key

00:18:06.358 --> 00:18:10.528
is to have you have an idea of
what your product needs to be.

00:18:10.660 --> 00:18:14.600
And some of these requests
may align really nicely with

00:18:14.630 --> 00:18:16.850
your, your idea of the product.

00:18:16.850 --> 00:18:20.330
And some obviously will not
align, you know, at all.

00:18:20.778 --> 00:18:26.278
So I think if there's a way that you
can mold or shape that idea or that

00:18:26.278 --> 00:18:30.998
suggestion in a way that it'll, it'll,
integrate into your system in a more

00:18:30.998 --> 00:18:32.982
seamless way, then you can do that.

00:18:33.018 --> 00:18:35.238
I handle this in a similar way.

00:18:35.238 --> 00:18:40.147
I, my first reaction is usually
no, because because I, I have

00:18:40.147 --> 00:18:41.975
an idea of what I want to do.

00:18:42.052 --> 00:18:46.998
but you know, as long as It's a
request of a feature that is, sort of,

00:18:46.998 --> 00:18:49.668
related or tangentially, related to

00:18:49.944 --> 00:18:51.534
Alan: not a completely different product.

00:18:51.534 --> 00:18:51.804
Right.

00:18:51.834 --> 00:18:55.074
But it's, it's, it's kind of
just out there a little bit.

00:18:55.074 --> 00:18:59.544
It's just a bit beyond the limits of where
you ex what you planned to, do, right.

00:19:00.098 --> 00:19:00.458
Mario: Yeah.

00:19:00.458 --> 00:19:05.528
For example, with the thing with fusion
cast is that it's a recording tool, right?

00:19:05.528 --> 00:19:10.808
So I want to stay true to that and
keep my course, in that direction.

00:19:10.808 --> 00:19:13.598
And I don't want to deviate too much
from that because I want to take care

00:19:13.598 --> 00:19:16.178
of one thing and hopefully do it well.

00:19:16.208 --> 00:19:16.508
Right.

00:19:16.508 --> 00:19:18.758
It's just this one to,
it's a recording tool.

00:19:18.758 --> 00:19:20.775
it's not meant for editing.

00:19:20.775 --> 00:19:24.855
It's not an editing tool is not,
you know, so I've gotten requests

00:19:24.885 --> 00:19:28.905
where, people suggest that maybe, you
know, if they could edit, you know,

00:19:28.975 --> 00:19:30.955
Alan: Automatically uploads to like Yeah.

00:19:30.985 --> 00:19:32.425
Distribution or something.

00:19:32.425 --> 00:19:32.665
Right.

00:19:32.905 --> 00:19:33.655
I can imagine

00:19:33.655 --> 00:19:34.765
the request.

00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:36.070
Mario: Yeah.

00:19:36.090 --> 00:19:36.330
Yeah.

00:19:36.370 --> 00:19:36.880
exactly.

00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:40.720
And so it's not, It's not
a it's not an editing tool.

00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:44.230
So I, unfortunately I
have to, say no to, those.

00:19:44.230 --> 00:19:48.980
but there are some other requests where
even if it's not directly related to

00:19:48.980 --> 00:19:55.170
recording, but if in some way it enhances
the experience of recording, then,

00:19:55.260 --> 00:19:59.970
you know, I can consider that maybe
implemented as suggested or, shape it in

00:19:59.970 --> 00:20:05.490
a different way that kind of, Integrates
better with, with my main mission.

00:20:05.730 --> 00:20:09.720
and I and I think that's kind of what
you touched on earlier where, okay.

00:20:09.870 --> 00:20:11.610
your first reaction
was no, but then, okay.

00:20:11.610 --> 00:20:17.740
Let me think about how I can kind of make
it work and, have that thing that feature

00:20:17.740 --> 00:20:20.740
bring more value into your core mission,

00:20:20.790 --> 00:20:23.070
Alan: I mean, th th that's the
interesting thing about this, you

00:20:23.070 --> 00:20:25.830
know, by embracing something that

00:20:25.880 --> 00:20:27.675
Not embracing it, but, but giving it

00:20:27.675 --> 00:20:31.831
space to, to at least try
to, live I've touched on

00:20:31.831 --> 00:20:35.531
something that I think
could become kind of core.

00:20:35.531 --> 00:20:37.584
You know, the, the, especially this idea

00:20:37.584 --> 00:20:38.030
of you know,

00:20:38.030 --> 00:20:39.710
this, this of self of,

00:20:39.710 --> 00:20:41.780
of recording, not

00:20:41.780 --> 00:20:44.816
just for other people
what I'm doing, but also

00:20:44.816 --> 00:20:47.077
having the I mean, even using dot

00:20:47.077 --> 00:20:50.830
plan for me, the company of
me is actually useful having

00:20:50.860 --> 00:20:54.130
this log of what I was doing last week.

00:20:54.130 --> 00:20:55.150
And just seeing

00:20:55.390 --> 00:20:56.170
full patterns

00:20:56.170 --> 00:20:58.930
appear in that is
actually very interesting.

00:20:58.960 --> 00:20:59.500
And seeing

00:20:59.500 --> 00:21:02.920
you can see your mood changes because,
you know, mood tracking built in as well.

00:21:02.920 --> 00:21:04.900
So not just for

00:21:04.939 --> 00:21:05.559
From a a

00:21:05.569 --> 00:21:09.335
manager company, you
know standpoint, but just

00:21:09.335 --> 00:21:09.485
from.

00:21:10.265 --> 00:21:11.345
And how am I, doing?

00:21:12.065 --> 00:21:14.964
I can almost see the ebbs
and flows in my own work.

00:21:14.964 --> 00:21:16.847
You know, how much time did
I spend on each project?

00:21:16.867 --> 00:21:18.317
And again, you'll see by

00:21:18.407 --> 00:21:19.097
doing this, I,

00:21:19.097 --> 00:21:20.047
I I,

00:21:20.057 --> 00:21:23.057
want to try some visualization of
this, but we can already see the

00:21:23.057 --> 00:21:24.287
patterns in the list

00:21:24.317 --> 00:21:25.937
of data of hold on.

00:21:25.937 --> 00:21:27.137
I was really focused on this

00:21:27.137 --> 00:21:27.467
thing

00:21:27.957 --> 00:21:29.027
this week are, you

00:21:29.027 --> 00:21:29.147
know,

00:21:29.147 --> 00:21:29.357
that

00:21:29.417 --> 00:21:29.717
period

00:21:29.717 --> 00:21:31.727
of time and you can, it'll be

00:21:31.727 --> 00:21:32.687
interesting to

00:21:32.717 --> 00:21:34.067
do some visualizations on it.

00:21:34.307 --> 00:21:38.687
So by seeing that it's not, not,

00:21:38.687 --> 00:21:44.066
completely out there, it's actually has
some interesting side effects is paid off.

00:21:44.066 --> 00:21:44.456
I, think.

00:21:44.456 --> 00:21:46.106
So I say I'm not

00:21:46.646 --> 00:21:48.146
a hundred percent sure that it's going to

00:21:48.506 --> 00:21:52.916
exist in it's in the same format to
this right now, but I'm becoming more

00:21:52.916 --> 00:21:56.486
convinced that it is
part of what dot plan is

00:21:56.486 --> 00:21:56.936
becoming.

00:21:57.206 --> 00:21:57.806
And I think the.

00:21:58.991 --> 00:22:00.011
and again, when I started on

00:22:00.011 --> 00:22:02.081
dot plan, I had a a reasonably

00:22:02.081 --> 00:22:03.701
strong idea of what I thought the

00:22:03.701 --> 00:22:04.331
product was.

00:22:04.601 --> 00:22:08.734
And it's really interesting to see
how it's because it's I guess in

00:22:08.734 --> 00:22:10.234
some ways it's, it's not a tightly

00:22:10.234 --> 00:22:11.584
defined, I it's probably

00:22:11.604 --> 00:22:11.754
the,

00:22:12.724 --> 00:22:13.954
I think I've said this before as well.

00:22:13.984 --> 00:22:14.464
It's probably

00:22:14.474 --> 00:22:14.604
the

00:22:15.154 --> 00:22:18.574
wrong project to do as an Indi, like a

00:22:18.754 --> 00:22:19.174
project.

00:22:19.174 --> 00:22:19.384
Right.

00:22:19.384 --> 00:22:23.341
You know, it should be super nice like
tightly scoped something that, you know,

00:22:23.341 --> 00:22:24.958
it's, it has hard edges.

00:22:25.014 --> 00:22:27.264
But by kind of approaching something

00:22:27.264 --> 00:22:31.374
that is fuzzy and I've
got an idea in this space,

00:22:31.374 --> 00:22:31.644
but it

00:22:31.644 --> 00:22:35.814
isn't strongly defined and typed
and it doesn't have hard ideas.

00:22:35.814 --> 00:22:38.612
It's it, it has potentially long tendrils

00:22:38.642 --> 00:22:39.602
reaching out into other

00:22:39.602 --> 00:22:40.082
projects.

00:22:40.167 --> 00:22:40.870
It makes it

00:22:40.941 --> 00:22:41.691
It makes it tricky.

00:22:41.740 --> 00:22:45.684
But it also feels super
rewarding to see where it goes

00:22:45.894 --> 00:22:48.294
because it's, it's, it's growing.

00:22:48.294 --> 00:22:50.124
I mean, the fact that, you
know, projects, weren't an

00:22:50.124 --> 00:22:54.334
integral part of the, the, my original
plan and it's become kind of core

00:22:54.334 --> 00:22:57.294
just by seeing how people use it

00:22:57.294 --> 00:22:58.404
and how I use it.

00:22:58.464 --> 00:23:00.813
And you can see these patterns coming out.

00:23:00.926 --> 00:23:02.546
And again, if I was a different

00:23:02.546 --> 00:23:05.846
type of person, I probably could have
done this before I started coding.

00:23:06.596 --> 00:23:07.826
I mean, this is, you

00:23:07.826 --> 00:23:11.936
know, I guess what service designers
and user experience designers do, right?

00:23:11.936 --> 00:23:12.746
You know, this, all of this

00:23:12.746 --> 00:23:14.546
would have been prototyped out and kind

00:23:14.546 --> 00:23:15.596
of worked with clients.

00:23:15.596 --> 00:23:17.396
And, but the easiest way for me

00:23:17.396 --> 00:23:21.506
to, to do and learn is to write
code, you know, I can write code

00:23:21.506 --> 00:23:23.576
easy, then I can draw on Figma or

00:23:23.966 --> 00:23:28.824
easier than you know, doing, interviewing
clients with prototypes and like, well, I

00:23:28.824 --> 00:23:33.144
can build it for you and see how you use
it as the easiest way of learning for me.

00:23:34.579 --> 00:23:35.149
And

00:23:36.219 --> 00:23:39.949
I am sure other people will work
differently, but it's been a,

00:23:40.069 --> 00:23:42.199
an interesting journey so far.

00:23:42.349 --> 00:23:47.058
And it's really interesting to
see it's becoming clearer to me.

00:23:47.110 --> 00:23:50.810
Well, what it is, even though
my initial is not far, but

00:23:50.810 --> 00:23:52.130
it's different from my original

00:23:52.130 --> 00:23:52.610
concept.

00:23:53.090 --> 00:23:53.930
It feels now

00:23:53.930 --> 00:23:54.170
like

00:23:54.170 --> 00:23:57.590
it is becoming much more in focus
and now it's just a matter of like,

00:23:57.890 --> 00:24:00.920
you know, getting it perfectly in
focus and, and building it out and

00:24:01.130 --> 00:24:05.120
building stuff, which I now know now
no needs building when, before I wasn't

00:24:05.120 --> 00:24:07.100
even aware that it needed to exist,

00:24:07.775 --> 00:24:08.165
Mario: Yeah.

00:24:08.375 --> 00:24:12.065
And it sounds like you, you, in
analyzing the request and how the

00:24:12.065 --> 00:24:16.955
feature would work, you kind of broke
it down to parts that, oh no, not

00:24:16.955 --> 00:24:23.065
parts, but you shaped it down to a way
that it would work with what you have,

00:24:23.065 --> 00:24:24.865
what your, the rest of your product.

00:24:24.975 --> 00:24:28.905
So it's not, so it doesn't
become a whole other product.

00:24:28.905 --> 00:24:32.835
It's just an added feature
that works well with the main

00:24:32.835 --> 00:24:34.605
purpose of your, of your product.

00:24:34.925 --> 00:24:35.375
Alan: exactly.

00:24:35.375 --> 00:24:36.185
And I think that was

00:24:36.188 --> 00:24:36.878
I also want

00:24:36.878 --> 00:24:37.388
to

00:24:37.628 --> 00:24:40.598
buy by not committing to building a

00:24:40.928 --> 00:24:45.518
on time tracking system,
but what's the what does a

00:24:45.518 --> 00:24:48.368
time tracking system look like
in the context of dot plan?

00:24:48.578 --> 00:24:49.640
And, and it did take,

00:24:49.662 --> 00:24:51.192
Took a good few weeks for

00:24:51.192 --> 00:24:51.372
me

00:24:51.372 --> 00:24:53.622
to figure that out, even at just a

00:24:53.622 --> 00:24:55.932
high level, you know, sketch view.

00:24:56.025 --> 00:24:58.365
And then seeing it actually come in and

00:24:58.365 --> 00:24:58.695
just

00:24:58.695 --> 00:25:00.015
be there and it

00:25:00.015 --> 00:25:00.435
works.

00:25:00.435 --> 00:25:01.215
It's, it's nice.

00:25:01.215 --> 00:25:01.777
It feels good.

00:25:01.777 --> 00:25:03.439
So I'm, I'm kind of interested to see

00:25:03.439 --> 00:25:03.829
how this

00:25:03.829 --> 00:25:05.602
works out just as a yeah.

00:25:05.632 --> 00:25:08.812
It's, it's been an interesting
experiment for sure.

00:25:09.101 --> 00:25:09.491
Mario: Yeah.

00:25:09.951 --> 00:25:10.691
Sounds like it.

00:25:11.111 --> 00:25:11.741
That's awesome.

00:25:13.442 --> 00:25:15.108
Alan: Anyway, how's your
what's been going on there.

00:25:15.108 --> 00:25:18.354
Mario: So Haven't had any
time to work on product.

00:25:18.384 --> 00:25:21.294
I need to, I think I talked
about this last time.

00:25:21.294 --> 00:25:25.584
I'm still working on other things
besides the product itself.

00:25:25.584 --> 00:25:28.854
I'm getting a little impatient
and I need to get back to

00:25:28.914 --> 00:25:30.474
working on the product itself.

00:25:30.474 --> 00:25:35.141
And so I think I'm going to be doing that,
this week next week, the latest, I've

00:25:35.141 --> 00:25:37.038
been focusing on the marketing website.

00:25:37.038 --> 00:25:42.408
I got some feedback from some folks
And it was good feedback to, improve

00:25:42.408 --> 00:25:44.538
the marketing site improve the message.

00:25:44.538 --> 00:25:47.618
so I've been working on that
and one of those things was.

00:25:47.685 --> 00:25:50.175
Include a video, which
I was planning to do.

00:25:50.175 --> 00:25:53.895
And we talked about that so,
I finally spent some time

00:25:53.895 --> 00:25:55.515
recording a video for that.

00:25:55.515 --> 00:26:00.025
it's just a quick demo of how
fusioncast works from logging in

00:26:00.025 --> 00:26:04.105
creating a podcast entry, creating
a session, joining a session, have

00:26:04.105 --> 00:26:06.805
someone else a guest join and.

00:26:06.805 --> 00:26:10.465
Just showcase real quick, you,
know, backup, recording, progress,

00:26:10.465 --> 00:26:12.115
local recording in progress.

00:26:12.115 --> 00:26:14.468
It's uploading at the
same time And that's it.

00:26:14.468 --> 00:26:17.798
And, just showing the recordings
I get generated from that quick

00:26:17.798 --> 00:26:20.948
session, you know, It's about
three and a half minutes or so.

00:26:20.948 --> 00:26:23.648
I'm still editing a few
parts here and there.

00:26:23.648 --> 00:26:25.358
It's almost ready to go.

00:26:25.358 --> 00:26:29.989
And as soon as I finish it I'm going to
update the website with that, And I have

00:26:29.989 --> 00:26:32.359
data to copy a little bit on the website.

00:26:32.397 --> 00:26:36.657
a little bit of styling as well,
just to make it a little more, alive.

00:26:36.747 --> 00:26:40.530
One of the, yeah, one of the feedback
that I got was that it was a little

00:26:40.530 --> 00:26:42.540
too grayish you know, kind of

00:26:42.775 --> 00:26:43.285
Alan: that was good.

00:26:43.295 --> 00:26:44.515
That was going to be my only

00:26:45.415 --> 00:26:49.079
response to it is yeah, it, it needs a
bit of color and that needs to look a

00:26:49.079 --> 00:26:49.199
lot.

00:26:49.319 --> 00:26:49.919
I mean, it's.

00:26:49.949 --> 00:26:50.459
it's.

00:26:50.473 --> 00:26:51.973
Especially with something like

00:26:51.973 --> 00:26:55.243
a podcast that you don't
want to it to feel like a

00:26:55.255 --> 00:26:57.175
a boring corporate thing, right?

00:26:57.175 --> 00:26:59.245
The people who are recording podcasts

00:26:59.365 --> 00:27:00.175
are generally

00:27:00.715 --> 00:27:02.425
a bit more lively And, upbeat, right?

00:27:02.425 --> 00:27:05.066
So you want to fall
into match that, right.

00:27:05.751 --> 00:27:06.261
Mario: Yeah.

00:27:06.321 --> 00:27:06.681
Yeah.

00:27:06.681 --> 00:27:09.658
So I did add a little
bit of more color to it.

00:27:09.691 --> 00:27:11.911
Not, not, yeah, not a whole lot, but

00:27:12.606 --> 00:27:16.146
Alan: not being a designer at
color is, I mean, that's one of

00:27:16.146 --> 00:27:21.426
the reasons DotPlan is blue and
purple is it's difficult to make a

00:27:21.516 --> 00:27:22.446
massive mistake.

00:27:23.316 --> 00:27:24.906
All of a sudden everything's indigo.

00:27:24.906 --> 00:27:25.146
Right.

00:27:25.756 --> 00:27:30.096
And I experimented briefly with trying
to do a dark theme and I'm like,

00:27:30.396 --> 00:27:34.356
okay, I need to learn a few things
before I venture into that world.

00:27:34.423 --> 00:27:34.903
Yeah.

00:27:34.903 --> 00:27:39.414
It's without having any design background
it's it's very easy to screw up with

00:27:39.444 --> 00:27:41.214
a color, right.

00:27:41.914 --> 00:27:42.274
Mario: Yeah.

00:27:42.424 --> 00:27:42.754
Yeah.

00:27:42.784 --> 00:27:47.404
Dark, dark mode presents a unique
challenges and I've experimented with

00:27:47.404 --> 00:27:49.141
that a little bit with my own website.

00:27:49.141 --> 00:27:51.211
I created a dark theme.

00:27:51.211 --> 00:27:55.411
if your system is in dark mode,
then my site renders in dark mode,

00:27:56.041 --> 00:27:57.481
but it's a really simple design.

00:27:57.481 --> 00:27:59.581
I don't, I didn't use that much color.

00:27:59.581 --> 00:28:02.881
And kept it really simple
because it is challenging to

00:28:02.881 --> 00:28:05.431
have color on a dark mode, a

00:28:05.802 --> 00:28:06.552
Alan: Yeah, exactly.

00:28:06.762 --> 00:28:09.552
And it's even, even some
of the big sites, you know,

00:28:09.552 --> 00:28:11.019
like I mean, get to a bar now

00:28:11.019 --> 00:28:14.139
has a dark mode and stuff and
some things work well and other

00:28:14.139 --> 00:28:15.239
things you're like, nah, it

00:28:15.249 --> 00:28:16.779
feels just feels off, right?

00:28:17.589 --> 00:28:17.979
Mario: Yeah.

00:28:18.009 --> 00:28:18.309
Yeah.

00:28:18.309 --> 00:28:22.435
They, sometimes they use,
these sort of neon colors on

00:28:22.435 --> 00:28:27.325
dark mode on dark themes and,
it doesn't look all that great.

00:28:27.429 --> 00:28:30.549
It looks really colorful, but
it's a little too much, you know,

00:28:31.029 --> 00:28:31.239
Alan: Yeah.

00:28:31.239 --> 00:28:32.079
There's a fine life.

00:28:32.109 --> 00:28:32.649
W what,

00:28:32.709 --> 00:28:36.399
that's actually, one of the
things I'm trying to add to a to

00:28:36.399 --> 00:28:39.789
dot plan at the moment is, so at
the moment, the only place color

00:28:39.789 --> 00:28:41.259
is used outside of the purple

00:28:41.259 --> 00:28:43.839
is for your, like the default user icons.

00:28:43.928 --> 00:28:44.858
So, you got a little circle.

00:28:45.098 --> 00:28:47.997
So I'm trying to add this as
a, an identifier, a way of,

00:28:48.054 --> 00:28:50.214
Identifying visually projects from one

00:28:50.214 --> 00:28:53.334
another, because projects are
becoming like the, say, like a

00:28:53.334 --> 00:28:57.573
core aspect of the, the, of the
check-ins and things now I want

00:28:57.573 --> 00:29:00.063
to try to tie colors to those too.

00:29:00.333 --> 00:29:01.434
So at the moment

00:29:01.434 --> 00:29:02.724
I'm just doing it as

00:29:02.724 --> 00:29:05.289
like a I wrote a thing
which basically takes a

00:29:05.289 --> 00:29:09.585
string, does a hash, And you
get a a, a hue based on it.

00:29:09.585 --> 00:29:11.338
So you can set the saturation and yeah.

00:29:11.368 --> 00:29:11.638
You know,

00:29:12.488 --> 00:29:12.978
Mario: Yeah, oh

00:29:13.057 --> 00:29:14.367
Alan: hue, saturation.

00:29:15.137 --> 00:29:15.597
Yeah,

00:29:15.597 --> 00:29:17.227
Mario: a hue saturation.

00:29:17.247 --> 00:29:18.837
and what is it, contrast?

00:29:19.038 --> 00:29:19.938
Alan: Maybe something like that.

00:29:20.118 --> 00:29:21.738
so so I just vary the hue,

00:29:21.788 --> 00:29:24.290
Based on so it always looks ish, right?

00:29:24.320 --> 00:29:26.180
Because it doesn't look too stand out.

00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:29.549
It's just reasons subtly
enough that it's it

00:29:29.549 --> 00:29:33.299
looks colorful, but it doesn't look
too out there and then have it.

00:29:33.299 --> 00:29:33.719
So you can

00:29:33.719 --> 00:29:35.579
just choose a different one later.

00:29:35.579 --> 00:29:36.359
But at the moment I'm

00:29:36.359 --> 00:29:36.599
just

00:29:36.629 --> 00:29:40.059
taking the the ID and something
else and creating a hash from it,

00:29:40.059 --> 00:29:40.359
using that

00:29:41.244 --> 00:29:43.229
To see the to create a hue.

00:29:43.709 --> 00:29:44.669
And, and it's nice.

00:29:44.669 --> 00:29:45.449
Just, Just,

00:29:45.449 --> 00:29:47.879
actually suddenly having
a bit of color appear on

00:29:47.879 --> 00:29:47.939
the

00:29:47.939 --> 00:29:48.389
screen

00:29:48.449 --> 00:29:49.589
in both tags.

00:29:49.679 --> 00:29:50.249
And,

00:29:50.325 --> 00:29:52.485
Like the, the project view it's suddenly

00:29:52.485 --> 00:29:53.625
gives the, it makes

00:29:53.625 --> 00:29:54.915
it feel more

00:29:55.605 --> 00:29:56.055
real.

00:29:56.100 --> 00:29:56.640
And, and it

00:29:56.640 --> 00:29:57.510
also, I feel

00:29:57.510 --> 00:29:57.750
like

00:29:57.750 --> 00:29:58.110
I'm

00:29:58.410 --> 00:30:00.840
my boring indigo and

00:30:00.870 --> 00:30:02.899
white or rather gray 100,

00:30:02.899 --> 00:30:04.982
Background certainly paid off

00:30:05.012 --> 00:30:08.522
because the colors all
work, having just colors.

00:30:08.522 --> 00:30:09.302
If I'd already

00:30:09.302 --> 00:30:09.512
gone

00:30:09.512 --> 00:30:10.142
with a strong

00:30:10.142 --> 00:30:13.532
opinionated color scheme for the rest
of the project, it would be like, oh my

00:30:13.532 --> 00:30:15.392
God, someone just knocked over a box of

00:30:15.392 --> 00:30:15.812
Crayola.

00:30:15.812 --> 00:30:16.022
Right.

00:30:16.031 --> 00:30:17.393
But because everything

00:30:17.483 --> 00:30:17.963
is

00:30:18.263 --> 00:30:20.513
kind of blend to start off with having

00:30:20.513 --> 00:30:23.993
just these little injections
of color, actually, I was

00:30:23.993 --> 00:30:26.523
pleasantly surprised how good it
looked and I'm like, okay, this

00:30:26.610 --> 00:30:29.490
I feel like, I, I feel like I
planned it, but I didn't it was just.

00:30:30.449 --> 00:30:30.899
Mario: Yeah.

00:30:31.439 --> 00:30:31.649
Yeah.

00:30:31.679 --> 00:30:35.189
Color can be tricky and
design as a whole is, is just.

00:30:35.189 --> 00:30:37.199
a whole other field, especially for us

00:30:37.379 --> 00:30:37.989
coders.

00:30:38.030 --> 00:30:40.010
Alan: Adam's a refactoring

00:30:40.010 --> 00:30:40.910
UI book.

00:30:41.645 --> 00:30:45.875
Mario: I have the book I
haven't gone through most of it.

00:30:45.875 --> 00:30:48.247
I only started and did a little bit of

00:30:48.322 --> 00:30:49.192
Alan: I read it when I

00:30:49.202 --> 00:30:49.852
first yeah.

00:30:49.852 --> 00:30:50.272
When he first

00:30:50.272 --> 00:30:50.752
released it.

00:30:50.752 --> 00:30:53.432
So I'd probably go back and reread
it, but it's interesting how

00:30:53.471 --> 00:30:54.281
certain things

00:30:54.281 --> 00:30:54.491
a bit.

00:30:54.536 --> 00:30:55.946
Mario: wait, I'm sorry.

00:30:55.976 --> 00:30:57.176
No, I don't, have it.

00:30:57.236 --> 00:31:00.656
I was thinking of a
refactoring to collections.

00:31:00.686 --> 00:31:04.916
The older book that he wrote,
not you're talking about the UI.

00:31:04.961 --> 00:31:05.981
Alan: did, Oh, Okay.

00:31:06.041 --> 00:31:06.611
I knew, I don't

00:31:06.611 --> 00:31:06.731
know

00:31:06.731 --> 00:31:06.941
that one

00:31:06.941 --> 00:31:07.061
though.

00:31:07.136 --> 00:31:08.006
Mario: I don't have that one.

00:31:08.321 --> 00:31:09.431
Alan: It's highly recommended.

00:31:09.461 --> 00:31:10.151
Cause again, I read

00:31:10.151 --> 00:31:10.301
it

00:31:10.391 --> 00:31:10.961
first

00:31:10.961 --> 00:31:12.781
when it was, when he first released it And

00:31:13.841 --> 00:31:14.491
And I, I,

00:31:14.501 --> 00:31:15.761
found it again the other day.

00:31:15.808 --> 00:31:16.030
I was

00:31:16.240 --> 00:31:17.710
tidying up some file

00:31:17.710 --> 00:31:18.130
system

00:31:18.130 --> 00:31:19.960
and I'm like, oh yeah,
I forgot about that.

00:31:20.290 --> 00:31:21.490
And, and it's funny how

00:31:21.490 --> 00:31:25.240
certain things seem to have, I
have actually learnt it as in

00:31:25.540 --> 00:31:26.700
things which he's mentioned.

00:31:26.730 --> 00:31:27.910
I'm like, I do that

00:31:27.910 --> 00:31:28.120
now.

00:31:29.500 --> 00:31:30.850
It just, in terms of there, there was

00:31:30.908 --> 00:31:31.208
one of

00:31:31.208 --> 00:31:35.788
the, I think it was very early on, simple
thing about just using as opposed to using

00:31:35.788 --> 00:31:38.281
texts to as headers and things as

00:31:38.281 --> 00:31:42.661
in like, you know, title project,
and then I think using the

00:31:43.081 --> 00:31:45.099
colors, weight, and,

00:31:45.139 --> 00:31:48.091
And colorize weight and layout to

00:31:49.021 --> 00:31:51.991
to almost like state what this is.

00:31:51.991 --> 00:31:52.381
And there is a

00:31:52.381 --> 00:31:53.251
relation to the

00:31:53.251 --> 00:31:53.668
item.

00:31:53.668 --> 00:31:55.004
I've been trained to do that a lot

00:31:55.004 --> 00:31:55.364
more

00:31:55.424 --> 00:31:57.224
and, and I didn't realize that

00:31:57.224 --> 00:31:57.494
I was

00:31:57.494 --> 00:31:59.204
doing it, but it, was just reading

00:31:59.204 --> 00:31:59.444
it.

00:31:59.512 --> 00:32:01.582
You know, I just scanned
through the file when

00:32:01.592 --> 00:32:02.092
I found it.

00:32:02.392 --> 00:32:04.162
I'm like, ah, I I, apparently

00:32:04.762 --> 00:32:05.602
I learned something there.

00:32:06.712 --> 00:32:07.562
Mario: you internalized

00:32:07.822 --> 00:32:08.212
Alan: apparently.

00:32:08.212 --> 00:32:08.474
So,

00:32:08.522 --> 00:32:09.512
That just really stuck with

00:32:09.512 --> 00:32:12.268
me that like, oh yeah,
I'm labeling everything.

00:32:12.268 --> 00:32:13.258
Why am I labeling

00:32:13.258 --> 00:32:16.108
gala the fields when it's obvious when you

00:32:16.408 --> 00:32:18.868
weight things and you lay things
out properly that you don't need

00:32:18.868 --> 00:32:18.928
the

00:32:18.928 --> 00:32:19.228
label.

00:32:19.228 --> 00:32:19.468
Right.

00:32:19.468 --> 00:32:19.738
So

00:32:19.770 --> 00:32:21.390
I that apparently stuck with me.

00:32:21.422 --> 00:32:22.614
So I feel as though there's a whole

00:32:22.614 --> 00:32:23.094
lot more that I

00:32:23.094 --> 00:32:24.804
should review in there and

00:32:24.804 --> 00:32:25.224
learn again.

00:32:25.224 --> 00:32:27.673
So it's, it's again, I like the

00:32:27.673 --> 00:32:28.483
style of that,

00:32:28.483 --> 00:32:29.743
just in terms of the,

00:32:29.743 --> 00:32:30.369
Kind of like the,

00:32:30.729 --> 00:32:31.989
not cookbook, but a

00:32:32.409 --> 00:32:33.519
reference thing.

00:32:33.549 --> 00:32:33.899
You, you

00:32:33.999 --> 00:32:37.332
th there's, there's just
things to learn, not like,

00:32:37.333 --> 00:32:40.548
It's not a Woody you know,
like novel, it's say.

00:32:41.568 --> 00:32:43.098
Read these things, internalize

00:32:43.098 --> 00:32:43.908
them, be a better

00:32:44.028 --> 00:32:44.478
designer.

00:32:44.555 --> 00:32:46.175
That, that, that resonates with me.

00:32:46.215 --> 00:32:46.925
I like that style.

00:32:46.985 --> 00:32:50.075
And if I was to write
another, yeah, exactly.

00:32:50.075 --> 00:32:51.425
I supposed to write another book

00:32:51.425 --> 00:32:52.709
again which I've set up

00:32:53.099 --> 00:32:54.119
set twice.

00:32:54.119 --> 00:32:54.689
I'd never do.

00:32:54.689 --> 00:32:55.662
And I ended up doing

00:32:55.710 --> 00:32:57.070
but I really like to

00:32:57.070 --> 00:32:57.150
do

00:32:57.150 --> 00:32:58.230
something in that style.

00:32:58.230 --> 00:32:59.820
That is, is something That

00:32:59.820 --> 00:33:00.960
you can refer to

00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:01.500
and, you know,

00:33:01.770 --> 00:33:02.670
spend five

00:33:02.670 --> 00:33:04.230
minutes looking through it and go, oh

00:33:04.230 --> 00:33:04.440
yeah.

00:33:04.470 --> 00:33:04.830
Okay.

00:33:04.860 --> 00:33:05.460
I got something

00:33:05.460 --> 00:33:05.850
from it.

00:33:06.150 --> 00:33:06.990
you know, and, and

00:33:06.990 --> 00:33:10.038
it's, it's not you don't have
to sit down and work through it.

00:33:10.068 --> 00:33:13.218
It's just like something that you can
pick up at any page and learn something.

00:33:13.227 --> 00:33:14.388
I like that that style.

00:33:14.409 --> 00:33:14.589
Mario: Yeah.

00:33:14.619 --> 00:33:17.039
Color is and design as a whole

00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:19.019
is a whole other world.

00:33:19.019 --> 00:33:22.529
And, I've been trying to get better on
that and little by little, you know,

00:33:22.529 --> 00:33:27.005
every project anything that I work on, I
try to learn something new and apply it

00:33:27.005 --> 00:33:29.855
and, improve in that side of things, but

00:33:29.915 --> 00:33:30.245
still.

00:33:30.690 --> 00:33:31.500
Alan: to that also, do

00:33:31.500 --> 00:33:36.270
you use like Figma or a design
tool to S to sketch, to, to

00:33:36.270 --> 00:33:38.190
design your layout before

00:33:38.190 --> 00:33:38.880
implementing it?

00:33:39.200 --> 00:33:41.850
Or do you just use it designing code,

00:33:42.585 --> 00:33:44.595
Mario: Sometimes I use Figma.

00:33:44.645 --> 00:33:47.848
And sometimes I don't and
I've been trying to use it.

00:33:48.328 --> 00:33:49.618
even if I don't use it.

00:33:49.978 --> 00:33:51.898
even if I don't do a lot in it.

00:33:51.988 --> 00:33:55.948
I at least start and kind of
get an idea of what I want to

00:33:55.948 --> 00:33:56.267
do.

00:33:56.312 --> 00:33:59.192
And then I just jumped right
into The browser and just design

00:33:59.192 --> 00:34:02.282
in the browser, especially with
tailwind is a lot easier, you know?

00:34:02.367 --> 00:34:02.487
Alan: Yeah.

00:34:02.487 --> 00:34:02.937
exactly.

00:34:03.032 --> 00:34:07.855
Mario: So, if I'm working on a project
for a client or, you know, or something

00:34:07.855 --> 00:34:12.145
like that or for work, I usually
do go more in depth using Figma.

00:34:12.145 --> 00:34:16.325
but for my own stuff, I usually just
start, you know, I just start with

00:34:16.325 --> 00:34:20.362
something And once I, I know I get
an idea then I, just jump right?

00:34:20.362 --> 00:34:20.872
into code.

00:34:21.362 --> 00:34:25.819
There's been times that I've spent
more time on Figma, just designing a

00:34:25.819 --> 00:34:31.202
small feature, like subset of a page,
you know, like, a row of, items with

00:34:31.202 --> 00:34:35.872
buttons and I just want to see how
they line up and, what spacing to

00:34:35.872 --> 00:34:40.584
use and what little icons to use as
labels kind of thing, instead of words,

00:34:40.614 --> 00:34:42.474
just using icons and you know, that.

00:34:42.474 --> 00:34:43.044
kind of stuff.

00:34:43.450 --> 00:34:47.470
but yeah, I, I go back and forth between
Figma and just, designing in the browser.

00:34:47.696 --> 00:34:47.936
Alan: right.

00:34:47.966 --> 00:34:51.044
I, I guess the my reason for
asking is because I don't

00:34:51.044 --> 00:34:53.984
use Figma at all and,
and I don't, And, I'm not

00:34:54.824 --> 00:34:56.534
comfortable familiar enough with it.

00:34:56.534 --> 00:34:59.629
I tried using it a few days ago,
a few weeks ago and realized

00:34:59.629 --> 00:34:59.959
that I

00:34:59.959 --> 00:35:01.099
couldn't get it to do anything.

00:35:01.099 --> 00:35:01.909
And I'm like, okay, do I

00:35:01.909 --> 00:35:04.909
invest time to learn Like a

00:35:04.909 --> 00:35:08.109
prototyping tool or I

00:35:08.179 --> 00:35:08.989
literally just, you

00:35:08.989 --> 00:35:12.069
know, right in tailwind now it's
like, well, I know I need a box

00:35:12.159 --> 00:35:13.149
here and it's this

00:35:13.149 --> 00:35:13.899
wide and

00:35:13.959 --> 00:35:15.909
this things are going
to go at this corner.

00:35:15.909 --> 00:35:15.999
and

00:35:16.239 --> 00:35:16.899
I just write

00:35:16.899 --> 00:35:17.049
it

00:35:17.049 --> 00:35:19.470
with that with tailwind and from a sketch.

00:35:19.470 --> 00:35:21.980
So I'll just sketch on,
paper and then go, okay.

00:35:21.980 --> 00:35:22.010
I

00:35:22.010 --> 00:35:24.080
know kind of how this is going to work.

00:35:24.110 --> 00:35:25.730
and then visually I'll go,

00:35:25.730 --> 00:35:26.000
okay.

00:35:26.020 --> 00:35:26.930
That needs to be wider.

00:35:26.930 --> 00:35:29.530
This needs to be, so I only.

00:35:29.530 --> 00:35:31.355
do go direct

00:35:31.355 --> 00:35:34.355
from a paper high level, weekly line

00:35:34.355 --> 00:35:35.688
script sketch to,

00:35:35.700 --> 00:35:36.240
To code.

00:35:36.600 --> 00:35:39.360
And, and I'm wondering if I'm missing out

00:35:39.360 --> 00:35:42.840
on something it's like, do I you
know, spend a few days becoming

00:35:42.870 --> 00:35:43.890
good with Figma?

00:35:44.130 --> 00:35:45.210
You know, what will that

00:35:45.210 --> 00:35:45.420
make

00:35:45.420 --> 00:35:50.346
me w in the end, hopefully be faster
and getting to the better design

00:35:50.586 --> 00:35:50.976
quicker.

00:35:51.276 --> 00:35:53.436
And then I'm just implementing
the final design as

00:35:53.436 --> 00:35:57.816
opposed to fiddling, which is what I do
currently is like, I'll get it working.

00:35:57.816 --> 00:36:00.156
And then I'll spend, you know, far

00:36:00.156 --> 00:36:02.526
too much time fiddling with
it to make it look right.

00:36:02.526 --> 00:36:04.056
So I'm just curious as to

00:36:04.686 --> 00:36:06.366
whether I should invest the time in.

00:36:07.931 --> 00:36:10.541
Mario: I think it would
be a good idea for you to

00:36:10.558 --> 00:36:15.288
invest some time to learn the tool a
little bit it can be useful, I guess it

00:36:15.288 --> 00:36:19.788
really depends on the feature or what it
is that you're designing sometimes the

00:36:19.788 --> 00:36:25.968
color and, the icons and all that, helps a
lot to do it in a design tool like Figma.

00:36:25.968 --> 00:36:31.317
and it saves you time, but, in
other situations, it, kind of slows

00:36:31.317 --> 00:36:34.687
you down a lot because depending
on what it is that you're working

00:36:34.857 --> 00:36:35.007
Alan: I

00:36:35.007 --> 00:36:35.707
mean, I, I sorry.

00:36:35.707 --> 00:36:36.837
I was just gonna say the end In

00:36:36.837 --> 00:36:37.527
previous company.

00:36:37.527 --> 00:36:37.647
Yeah.

00:36:37.647 --> 00:36:42.177
We, we, I would design effectively
done by a designer in, in design and

00:36:42.177 --> 00:36:42.687
then going

00:36:42.687 --> 00:36:44.637
from that, and it's like,
okay, I know exactly what

00:36:44.637 --> 00:36:44.727
I

00:36:44.727 --> 00:36:45.447
need to implement.

00:36:45.717 --> 00:36:49.767
And then sometimes it's like, but
I can't implement that based on

00:36:49.767 --> 00:36:51.507
the system we have currently, you know,

00:36:51.507 --> 00:36:51.987
it's like, well

00:36:51.987 --> 00:36:52.227
that

00:36:52.257 --> 00:36:53.307
that's not gonna fit.

00:36:53.637 --> 00:36:54.027
and then

00:36:54.147 --> 00:36:55.557
you end up with this back and forth.

00:36:55.557 --> 00:36:57.837
So I'm just, I think maybe Figma

00:36:57.837 --> 00:36:58.167
handles

00:36:58.167 --> 00:37:00.087
that better maybe than in design.

00:37:00.087 --> 00:37:00.987
Whereas I think in design.

00:37:00.987 --> 00:37:01.137
is a

00:37:01.137 --> 00:37:01.557
more

00:37:02.037 --> 00:37:03.087
just graphical tool.

00:37:03.097 --> 00:37:03.387
I'm

00:37:03.387 --> 00:37:04.077
not too familiar

00:37:04.077 --> 00:37:04.707
with the difference.

00:37:04.707 --> 00:37:05.547
So I don't know.

00:37:05.658 --> 00:37:06.018
Mario: Hm.

00:37:06.078 --> 00:37:08.528
do you mean like interactivity or

00:37:09.014 --> 00:37:10.077
Alan: I guess, I

00:37:10.377 --> 00:37:14.695
guess my lack of understanding of
Figma was when I started using it.

00:37:14.845 --> 00:37:16.105
My assumption

00:37:16.105 --> 00:37:20.575
was that I could design it and
it gives me HTML and apparently I

00:37:20.575 --> 00:37:21.145
was way off.

00:37:22.400 --> 00:37:23.600
Mario: Yeah, I know it doesn't work

00:37:23.620 --> 00:37:27.400
Alan: Because I see people do all these
Figma designs and I've seen things shed,

00:37:27.430 --> 00:37:29.620
and then I'm like, oh, interesting.

00:37:29.650 --> 00:37:29.980
And then

00:37:29.980 --> 00:37:30.730
it's like, hold on.

00:37:30.870 --> 00:37:31.780
This is just a picture.

00:37:32.050 --> 00:37:32.470
Oh yeah.

00:37:32.470 --> 00:37:33.130
It's just a picture.

00:37:33.378 --> 00:37:37.189
Which it was a a completely
incorrect assumption on my part.

00:37:37.189 --> 00:37:38.149
Mario: It doesn't do that.

00:37:38.149 --> 00:37:43.039
It's just a design tool, but you do,
it does have features or it does have

00:37:43.039 --> 00:37:48.476
a feature where you can, create some
interactivity so that if you hand this off

00:37:48.476 --> 00:37:52.916
to a client, for example, you want them to
get a feel for how the website navigates.

00:37:53.306 --> 00:37:55.796
It can navigate from one page to, another.

00:37:55.926 --> 00:37:57.096
Alan: a prototype kind of tool.

00:37:57.096 --> 00:37:57.456
Right, right.

00:37:57.536 --> 00:37:58.166
Mario: a prototype.

00:37:58.166 --> 00:37:58.466
Yeah.

00:37:58.526 --> 00:37:59.786
You can have links that are.

00:38:00.338 --> 00:38:03.828
Live, you know, sort of
speak and navigate the site.

00:38:03.828 --> 00:38:04.518
So it gives you a,

00:38:04.518 --> 00:38:06.198
good, kind of a good sense of

00:38:06.228 --> 00:38:08.178
what navigation is going to be like.

00:38:08.778 --> 00:38:11.827
that you can do, but it
won't do code for you.

00:38:11.937 --> 00:38:12.087
We

00:38:12.202 --> 00:38:13.192
Alan: I discovered this quickly,

00:38:13.857 --> 00:38:14.787
Mario: yeah, yeah,

00:38:14.992 --> 00:38:17.775
Alan: yeah, I guess it's it was
just a poor assumption on my part.

00:38:17.875 --> 00:38:24.214
And then I, my question was, yeah, like,
well, where does this fit into my process?

00:38:24.214 --> 00:38:26.494
Because at the moment it doesn't
fit into my process at all.

00:38:26.494 --> 00:38:31.864
So it's, so it's like, do I change
my process and learn to use that

00:38:31.864 --> 00:38:32.944
as a, okay.

00:38:33.034 --> 00:38:34.834
Do this before I start coding.

00:38:34.884 --> 00:38:39.009
And you know, I'm, I'm always
keen to improve my process and

00:38:39.039 --> 00:38:40.299
techniques, so it's like, okay.

00:38:40.299 --> 00:38:44.229
Do I say was probably, probably not
a bad waste of an afternoon, right.

00:38:45.364 --> 00:38:46.114
Mario: Yeah, yeah.

00:38:46.149 --> 00:38:46.599
And Figma.

00:38:46.599 --> 00:38:49.419
has a YouTube channel
with a ton of videos.

00:38:49.569 --> 00:38:49.899
Yeah.

00:38:49.945 --> 00:38:53.725
I'll see if I can, I probably have a
bookmark somewhere and you can go in

00:38:53.725 --> 00:38:56.185
there and learn real quick the basics.

00:38:56.215 --> 00:38:57.595
They have a ton of videos on

00:38:57.655 --> 00:38:57.925
Alan: Cool

00:38:58.445 --> 00:38:59.075
Mario: Yeah, I think it

00:38:59.075 --> 00:38:59.615
would be good

00:38:59.615 --> 00:39:04.535
for you to become familiar with it I find
it that it's more useful when you have

00:39:04.535 --> 00:39:07.535
to show a design to someone like a client

00:39:07.546 --> 00:39:08.606
Alan: Working with a client or something?

00:39:08.606 --> 00:39:09.026
Definitely.

00:39:09.185 --> 00:39:09.665
Mario: Yeah.

00:39:09.665 --> 00:39:12.785
then you definitely can take
advantage of it and show a

00:39:12.785 --> 00:39:14.915
client what a design will look

00:39:15.086 --> 00:39:18.476
Alan: Before you go And, spend more
time actually building it and fiddling.

00:39:19.605 --> 00:39:22.365
Mario: Yeah, but with, with
our own projects sometimes.

00:39:22.693 --> 00:39:24.673
doesn't work to spend all that time,

00:39:24.703 --> 00:39:26.863
just in design when you
can, once you, get an idea.

00:39:26.863 --> 00:39:31.933
and that's why I was saying the way I use
that as I start and I kind of get an idea.

00:39:31.933 --> 00:39:37.963
And once I, I kinda like what I see on
Figma, I just leave it and jump on onto

00:39:38.023 --> 00:39:40.093
coding and designing in the browser.

00:39:40.442 --> 00:39:44.822
It's rare that I spend too much
time in Figma for my own stuff.

00:39:45.182 --> 00:39:45.992
I also use

00:39:46.292 --> 00:39:47.792
paper and pencil quite a

00:39:47.997 --> 00:39:49.857
Alan: going to say there
is a there's an interesting

00:39:49.857 --> 00:39:50.097
tool.

00:39:50.097 --> 00:39:53.187
I don't know if it still exists,
but when the very first iPhone

00:39:53.217 --> 00:39:57.002
came out, Oh, not very first,
but when you could start writing

00:39:57.002 --> 00:39:59.552
applications for it,
there was a, a prototyping

00:39:59.552 --> 00:39:59.912
tool

00:39:59.912 --> 00:40:00.122
that

00:40:00.122 --> 00:40:03.062
you took a photo of a sketch and you

00:40:03.062 --> 00:40:05.402
could effectively assign hot zones and

00:40:05.402 --> 00:40:08.342
say, okay, if you push
this thing, transitioned

00:40:08.342 --> 00:40:09.122
to another sketch.

00:40:09.332 --> 00:40:12.122
And so effectively created a prototype

00:40:12.152 --> 00:40:13.262
based on sketches on your

00:40:13.532 --> 00:40:15.002
PLP prototype on paper.

00:40:15.002 --> 00:40:18.512
I think it was called problem probably
still exists or something like it.

00:40:18.812 --> 00:40:19.262
And

00:40:19.322 --> 00:40:23.282
so the one of the first iPhone
apps I designed, I did that.

00:40:23.282 --> 00:40:24.692
And that was interesting because it

00:40:24.692 --> 00:40:27.963
was such a designing for
such a different format

00:40:27.993 --> 00:40:30.273
was, was a big deal at

00:40:30.273 --> 00:40:30.963
that point in time.

00:40:30.963 --> 00:40:31.113
Right.

00:40:31.113 --> 00:40:33.733
You know, responsive sites
just didn't really exist.

00:40:33.763 --> 00:40:35.113
And trying to design for like.

00:40:35.143 --> 00:40:35.833
320

00:40:35.833 --> 00:40:40.893
pixels when you used to
1024 was was a hold on VR.

00:40:41.493 --> 00:40:42.303
I don't even know how

00:40:42.303 --> 00:40:43.563
I'm supposed to put things on the

00:40:43.563 --> 00:40:45.174
screen, this small whereas now it's,

00:40:45.354 --> 00:40:46.254
you know, the opposite, right?

00:40:47.269 --> 00:40:47.689
Mario: Yeah.

00:40:48.399 --> 00:40:50.109
Alan: yeah, It it, that,
that was, that was fun.

00:40:50.229 --> 00:40:51.279
I remember doing that, but

00:40:51.296 --> 00:40:53.903
yeah, especially again, if
I'm, if you designed it,

00:40:53.903 --> 00:40:56.393
for different break
points, then being able to,

00:40:56.793 --> 00:40:59.843
to do that visually and try
different things without,

00:40:59.904 --> 00:41:01.314
Having to fight with

00:41:01.314 --> 00:41:05.180
CSS is probably probably worth doing

00:41:06.129 --> 00:41:06.549
Mario: Yeah.

00:41:06.639 --> 00:41:08.859
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

00:41:08.914 --> 00:41:13.097
Let's see, where were We I was
telling you about the website and so I

00:41:13.167 --> 00:41:14.157
Alan: was, we got distracted by

00:41:14.502 --> 00:41:14.862
Mario: Yeah.

00:41:15.042 --> 00:41:16.665
Oh, yes, that's right colors.

00:41:16.695 --> 00:41:19.035
I kept it simple still because I, again,

00:41:19.105 --> 00:41:23.435
I just want something that works, good
enough for now that is aesthetically

00:41:23.485 --> 00:41:27.805
pleasing, but maybe later on, once I
have revenue coming in, I can hire a

00:41:27.805 --> 00:41:32.875
designer and create something really
nice, but for now, simple is good enough.

00:41:33.105 --> 00:41:33.585
let's see what

00:41:33.716 --> 00:41:35.516
Alan: going to have to
start getting clients soon.

00:41:36.676 --> 00:41:38.306
I'm going to keep harassing you about this

00:41:38.306 --> 00:41:38.756
each call.

00:41:39.056 --> 00:41:40.286
It's going to have start selling it.

00:41:42.095 --> 00:41:42.345
Mario: Yeah.

00:41:42.345 --> 00:41:42.605
Yeah.

00:41:42.605 --> 00:41:43.655
I'm trying to get there.

00:41:43.805 --> 00:41:45.395
and, trying to get there.

00:41:45.605 --> 00:41:48.035
I did onboard one more podcaster.

00:41:48.965 --> 00:41:52.572
yeah, got some good
feedback already from them.

00:41:52.602 --> 00:41:57.402
And I'm trying to get back to the product
side of things to work on some of,

00:41:57.402 --> 00:41:57.762
those.

00:41:58.332 --> 00:41:58.872
And,

00:41:58.997 --> 00:42:00.257
Alan: so close to the product, man.

00:42:00.377 --> 00:42:02.087
It's so close.

00:42:04.712 --> 00:42:05.402
Mario: I know, but You

00:42:05.402 --> 00:42:09.392
know, this all of a sudden, for
example, today, it was supposed

00:42:09.392 --> 00:42:12.722
to it's it was supposed to start
recording automatically and,

00:42:12.722 --> 00:42:13.622
it did it for you.

00:42:13.622 --> 00:42:13.832
and

00:42:13.832 --> 00:42:14.852
so now I'm like.

00:42:14.852 --> 00:42:17.082
I'm thinking what's going on.

00:42:17.082 --> 00:42:17.442
I need to

00:42:17.442 --> 00:42:19.002
go back And take a look at that

00:42:20.077 --> 00:42:21.577
Alan: It's these little books.

00:42:22.147 --> 00:42:23.587
I found one little thing

00:42:23.587 --> 00:42:29.077
on one edge case on, on dot plan last
night, and it's driving me up the wall.

00:42:29.077 --> 00:42:29.797
Cause I'm too busy to

00:42:29.797 --> 00:42:30.547
go and, look at it, but

00:42:30.547 --> 00:42:32.287
it's like, I know if you push that

00:42:32.287 --> 00:42:34.597
button and it doesn't
appear very often, but

00:42:34.597 --> 00:42:35.257
it's going to break.

00:42:35.527 --> 00:42:39.367
It's really bugging me that it's like,
nobody's probably gonna hit that button.

00:42:40.172 --> 00:42:43.242
You know anytime soon, but
it's really bugging me now.

00:42:43.262 --> 00:42:43.862
Like that

00:42:43.862 --> 00:42:45.302
century alert is just

00:42:45.302 --> 00:42:45.572
there in

00:42:45.572 --> 00:42:46.862
my email at the top.

00:42:46.892 --> 00:42:48.452
And I'm like, ah, I don't know why

00:42:48.452 --> 00:42:49.502
that's not working.

00:42:49.502 --> 00:42:50.582
I have to go deeper

00:42:52.671 --> 00:42:53.211
Mario: Yeah.

00:42:53.946 --> 00:42:56.046
Alan: I need that, that stack overflow, AI

00:42:56.046 --> 00:42:57.696
code gen, to go and fix it for me.

00:42:57.776 --> 00:42:58.026
Right.

00:42:58.611 --> 00:42:59.001
Mario: Oh yeah.

00:42:59.001 --> 00:42:59.361
Right.

00:43:00.201 --> 00:43:01.011
I saw that.

00:43:01.446 --> 00:43:02.496
Alan: That's got implications.

00:43:02.496 --> 00:43:04.506
I'm not sure what's, what's
going to come with that.

00:43:04.506 --> 00:43:09.958
But that's a, that's a whole bunch
of ethical and technical worms

00:43:09.958 --> 00:43:11.908
there kind of was, they just opened.

00:43:11.908 --> 00:43:12.148
Right.

00:43:12.148 --> 00:43:12.388
So

00:43:12.853 --> 00:43:13.573
Mario: yeah.

00:43:13.648 --> 00:43:14.998
Alan: don't even want to
think about that, right?

00:43:16.213 --> 00:43:18.883
Mario: it looks very
impressive and it looks like

00:43:18.898 --> 00:43:19.588
Alan: great demo.

00:43:19.618 --> 00:43:19.918
Right.

00:43:20.548 --> 00:43:21.508
Mario: It's a great demo.

00:43:21.508 --> 00:43:24.251
and I'm sure a ton of work went into it.

00:43:24.284 --> 00:43:29.655
AI powered and all that, but I don't
know, it just makes me, I'm very skeptical

00:43:29.655 --> 00:43:31.695
when it comes to tools like that.

00:43:31.695 --> 00:43:37.665
Anything automated, at least judging by
things that have come in the past, like,

00:43:37.825 --> 00:43:40.855
Alan: getting syntax, highlights in
working sometimes, you know, it screws up

00:43:40.855 --> 00:43:41.935
all the time and I'm like, you know, if

00:43:41.935 --> 00:43:45.595
syntax highlighting can't work, is it
going to write my code correctly for me?

00:43:45.795 --> 00:43:46.545
Mario: Yeah.

00:43:46.575 --> 00:43:50.715
Yeah, And, you know, remember tools
like Dreamweaver and you know, all these

00:43:50.715 --> 00:43:56.145
tools that generate code for you and you
end up with a mess or you end up with

00:43:56.655 --> 00:44:02.595
stuff that you still have to rewrite or
remove, or, you know, it's like, I dunno,

00:44:02.595 --> 00:44:06.045
I don't, I don't have much faith in
these kinds of systems, even though now.

00:44:06.365 --> 00:44:06.785
Alan: I think,

00:44:06.785 --> 00:44:09.875
there's going to be, it's
super interesting to see and to

00:44:09.875 --> 00:44:10.475
as a, like a

00:44:10.475 --> 00:44:13.355
taste of potential
futures, but yeah, my, my

00:44:14.015 --> 00:44:18.425
more immediate reaction
is like the, the ethics or

00:44:18.425 --> 00:44:20.735
the you know, this has been trained on

00:44:20.735 --> 00:44:21.935
open source code.

00:44:22.235 --> 00:44:24.545
Suddenly this whole clean room codes

00:44:24.605 --> 00:44:26.915
thing is blurry.

00:44:26.915 --> 00:44:27.725
You know what happens?

00:44:27.725 --> 00:44:31.065
That there's a potential
for like, Back doors to

00:44:31.065 --> 00:44:31.725
get learned.

00:44:31.795 --> 00:44:32.414
You know, we already

00:44:32.414 --> 00:44:33.014
know that this

00:44:33.014 --> 00:44:34.874
is a real problem in the world already.

00:44:34.941 --> 00:44:36.363
And yeah.

00:44:36.477 --> 00:44:37.887
I'm, I'm,

00:44:38.217 --> 00:44:40.587
less skeptical that
it's not going to work.

00:44:40.587 --> 00:44:41.037
I think in

00:44:41.037 --> 00:44:41.277
certain

00:44:41.277 --> 00:44:43.717
cases it will probably
work too well, maybe.

00:44:43.785 --> 00:44:44.535
I'm worried

00:44:44.535 --> 00:44:49.845
about the implications of it with relating
to software development as a profession

00:44:49.875 --> 00:44:52.528
and in terms of security and

00:44:53.098 --> 00:44:55.858
people taking shortcuts when probably
they shouldn't, because we already

00:44:55.858 --> 00:44:57.898
know people do that if it's an option.

00:44:57.988 --> 00:44:58.258
So,

00:44:58.973 --> 00:44:59.273
Mario: Yeah.

00:44:59.698 --> 00:45:00.658
Alan: and that goes any

00:45:01.078 --> 00:45:01.708
chance of yeah.

00:45:01.738 --> 00:45:03.148
Code testing is like

00:45:03.199 --> 00:45:03.739
in terms of

00:45:03.739 --> 00:45:05.239
like interviewing, if people are doing

00:45:05.239 --> 00:45:06.533
like oh yeah, write this code.

00:45:06.763 --> 00:45:08.263
I'll just get the AI to write it for me.

00:45:08.263 --> 00:45:09.913
See if we can get to that.

00:45:09.913 --> 00:45:10.273
That'd be an

00:45:10.273 --> 00:45:10.873
interesting bot.

00:45:10.873 --> 00:45:11.083
Right.

00:45:11.083 --> 00:45:14.718
See how many jobs a, an AI bot
could get based on code interviews.

00:45:15.517 --> 00:45:15.937
Mario: Yeah,

00:45:15.967 --> 00:45:16.327
right.

00:45:16.428 --> 00:45:18.198
Alan: get copy AI to actually

00:45:18.198 --> 00:45:21.778
answer the interview questions and this
thing to, to write the code for me and

00:45:21.778 --> 00:45:24.178
see if I can get a job somewhere based on.

00:45:24.178 --> 00:45:24.358
that.

00:45:24.458 --> 00:45:28.118
Mario: yeah, yeah.

00:45:28.118 --> 00:45:29.078
That would be interesting.

00:45:29.122 --> 00:45:30.352
let's see, what else?

00:45:30.352 --> 00:45:33.832
I think that's all I have, on my
end of things, part of the website

00:45:33.832 --> 00:45:37.702
also, I'll going back to the
website is I created a change log

00:45:37.732 --> 00:45:40.642
so that I can record, things that.

00:45:40.642 --> 00:45:42.832
change from version to version and

00:45:42.832 --> 00:45:43.252
Alan: Oh, nice.

00:45:43.252 --> 00:45:44.062
That looks good.

00:45:44.752 --> 00:45:45.052
The

00:45:45.118 --> 00:45:47.009
you just, you said you're using Statamic.

00:45:47.030 --> 00:45:47.510
Mario: Yes.

00:45:47.540 --> 00:45:48.320
For the marketing

00:45:48.590 --> 00:45:48.890
Alan: Nice.

00:45:49.040 --> 00:45:49.250
Cool.

00:45:49.310 --> 00:45:49.790
Cool, cool.

00:45:50.300 --> 00:45:50.540
Yeah.

00:45:50.570 --> 00:45:50.870
Cause,

00:45:50.938 --> 00:45:51.747
I I know I

00:45:51.747 --> 00:45:53.877
need to do some kind of
change, like things as well,

00:45:53.877 --> 00:45:54.747
especially since

00:45:54.785 --> 00:45:55.955
we experimented with

00:45:55.955 --> 00:45:59.015
this at my previous place
and I forget the name of the,

00:45:59.375 --> 00:46:00.605
did we use a service?

00:46:01.235 --> 00:46:03.065
I think we started using, the
service, then we brought it

00:46:03.065 --> 00:46:06.185
in-house because it's like, we
don't need, like, this is like

00:46:06.275 --> 00:46:07.325
a list of things.

00:46:08.185 --> 00:46:08.695
Mario: Yeah.

00:46:09.665 --> 00:46:11.979
Alan: and we had it in the UI as like

00:46:11.999 --> 00:46:14.139
a notification bell thing.

00:46:14.216 --> 00:46:16.076
Which, which, worked well, as

00:46:16.076 --> 00:46:19.714
well, just because you know, if
you're adding a feature or changing

00:46:20.194 --> 00:46:23.554
some part of the UI, you
want to draw attention to it.

00:46:23.563 --> 00:46:27.386
Without being too yeah, if it's out
there on some of the sites somewhere,

00:46:27.446 --> 00:46:28.466
it's probably never going to get

00:46:28.466 --> 00:46:29.366
looked at for.

00:46:29.419 --> 00:46:31.085
So yeah, some way of showing it in the

00:46:31.085 --> 00:46:33.365
UI is probably where I want to go

00:46:33.365 --> 00:46:33.755
as well.

00:46:33.796 --> 00:46:35.939
I haven't, haven't gone down there yet.

00:46:35.959 --> 00:46:37.949
I'm still, I was looking at 'em

00:46:38.309 --> 00:46:42.209
cause onboarding is still a,
I say a, work in progress.

00:46:42.209 --> 00:46:45.839
It's, it's, it's more of
a, a massive overthinking

00:46:45.839 --> 00:46:45.959
in

00:46:45.959 --> 00:46:46.799
progress, I guess.

00:46:46.875 --> 00:46:47.741
And that was

00:46:47.741 --> 00:46:49.247
watching a funder site SaaS,

00:46:49.267 --> 00:46:52.677
something I can't remember the
name of it, but it basically does,

00:46:52.715 --> 00:46:56.885
Like reviews of onboarding
for other sites.

00:46:57.095 --> 00:46:57.538
and

00:46:57.538 --> 00:47:02.276
it's, it's super interesting to go
through And you know, basically calls

00:47:02.276 --> 00:47:04.263
out patterns that they're using or

00:47:04.443 --> 00:47:04.803
like,

00:47:05.253 --> 00:47:06.573
you know, just how are they.

00:47:06.654 --> 00:47:09.174
People both in terms of signup and the

00:47:09.444 --> 00:47:10.434
instruction process.

00:47:10.854 --> 00:47:11.754
And that's

00:47:11.754 --> 00:47:13.284
like, I think I've, I

00:47:13.284 --> 00:47:13.644
think I've

00:47:13.764 --> 00:47:16.524
done too much and I just need to build it.

00:47:16.524 --> 00:47:16.704
Now.

00:47:17.534 --> 00:47:20.724
Platoon was recently got to the point
where I questioning every single thing I

00:47:20.724 --> 00:47:21.834
do now, because it's like, I've

00:47:21.834 --> 00:47:24.316
looked at too many examples and, too many

00:47:24.316 --> 00:47:26.309
different ways of doing
it that I'm like, I

00:47:26.309 --> 00:47:26.639
have no

00:47:26.639 --> 00:47:27.149
idea what's

00:47:27.149 --> 00:47:27.389
right

00:47:27.389 --> 00:47:27.749
anymore.

00:47:27.809 --> 00:47:32.973
It was just so again, I probably
just need to do version one and

00:47:32.973 --> 00:47:33.513
then

00:47:33.603 --> 00:47:38.703
iterate based on, you know, how that
feels to me just cause there's, there's

00:47:38.703 --> 00:47:39.693
no standard way.

00:47:39.693 --> 00:47:39.933
Right.

00:47:39.933 --> 00:47:41.673
so everybody does it differently and

00:47:41.673 --> 00:47:43.533
everybody is some have pros and cons and

00:47:43.533 --> 00:47:45.663
trying to come up with a hybrid of all of

00:47:45.663 --> 00:47:45.813
them.

00:47:45.813 --> 00:47:45.933
It's

00:47:45.933 --> 00:47:47.223
just the, I

00:47:47.223 --> 00:47:47.843
don't have time for,

00:47:48.843 --> 00:47:50.883
so I'm just going to do

00:47:50.883 --> 00:47:52.713
something and, yeah,

00:47:52.893 --> 00:47:53.463
Mario: sure.

00:47:53.703 --> 00:47:54.723
Alan: it's hard though, again,

00:47:54.723 --> 00:47:59.015
especially with something like dot plan,
that is one of the things that makes

00:47:59.015 --> 00:48:01.495
the onboarding different or difficult is

00:48:02.600 --> 00:48:04.070
I'm not just telling you

00:48:04.130 --> 00:48:05.750
how to use the product, I'm telling

00:48:05.750 --> 00:48:07.970
you what you should be
doing in the product.

00:48:08.060 --> 00:48:08.930
And that's the

00:48:08.930 --> 00:48:10.703
point which I keep sticking on is

00:48:11.333 --> 00:48:13.523
I think I talked about it last time,
as well as that, you know, I don't

00:48:13.523 --> 00:48:15.083
feel confident enough in telling

00:48:15.083 --> 00:48:17.019
someone what they should
be doing with their day.

00:48:17.026 --> 00:48:18.226
But I also want

00:48:18.226 --> 00:48:22.096
to present this in a way that makes them
feel that there is a system to follow.

00:48:22.096 --> 00:48:22.336
Right.

00:48:22.366 --> 00:48:22.712
So,

00:48:22.738 --> 00:48:26.488
That's the bit, which is, is
just difficult to, to write.

00:48:26.498 --> 00:48:32.201
so but again, I think I should probably
just commit to what I've half done and

00:48:32.201 --> 00:48:33.233
And then see how that goes.

00:48:33.293 --> 00:48:33.953
Cause it's better than

00:48:33.953 --> 00:48:35.123
what I had on what I have at the

00:48:35.123 --> 00:48:37.733
moment, which is nothing, which
is reselling them an email

00:48:37.733 --> 00:48:38.333
saying, this is what we

00:48:38.333 --> 00:48:38.903
probably should do.

00:48:40.138 --> 00:48:40.648
Mario: Yeah.

00:48:40.738 --> 00:48:41.243
Yeah.

00:48:41.255 --> 00:48:45.575
I think that's a good idea to just
commit to something and just stick to it.

00:48:45.590 --> 00:48:48.784
People will find ways to use the product.

00:48:48.874 --> 00:48:52.684
I mean, it's already happening where
people are using it in different ways.

00:48:52.772 --> 00:48:57.782
And you can probably address that
with your either documentation or

00:48:57.782 --> 00:49:02.303
knowledge base, and screencasts where
you could potentially show different

00:49:02.303 --> 00:49:05.933
ways to use the product, you know,
like, you know, different, quick

00:49:05.963 --> 00:49:08.709
demos and, you know, you could use
it like this, you use it like that.

00:49:08.709 --> 00:49:10.323
But Yeah.

00:49:10.383 --> 00:49:11.193
sticking to.

00:49:11.523 --> 00:49:13.763
Alan: What are you using
for your knowledge base?

00:49:13.793 --> 00:49:14.303
By the way?

00:49:14.393 --> 00:49:15.273
Something

00:49:15.279 --> 00:49:16.749
Mario: It's part of Outseta.

00:49:17.094 --> 00:49:17.814
Alan: Oh, okay.

00:49:17.814 --> 00:49:18.204
Of course.

00:49:18.294 --> 00:49:18.484
Yeah.

00:49:18.484 --> 00:49:18.714
Yeah.

00:49:19.134 --> 00:49:19.434
Okay.

00:49:19.434 --> 00:49:19.764
Nice.

00:49:19.839 --> 00:49:20.049
Mario: Yeah.

00:49:20.049 --> 00:49:21.139
It's part of Outseta.

00:49:21.879 --> 00:49:26.079
And so I haven't done much
there yet, but that's the plan.

00:49:26.394 --> 00:49:28.965
Alan: because we've been
again, my wife has been,

00:49:28.965 --> 00:49:30.285
working on Japanese,

00:49:30.645 --> 00:49:33.735
like instructions effectively,
and I'm like, okay, I want to

00:49:33.735 --> 00:49:36.765
take this out as we've just been
doing them on separate pages within

00:49:36.793 --> 00:49:38.891
What's the website thing
using the London page

00:49:38.921 --> 00:49:39.491
thing I'm using.

00:49:39.851 --> 00:49:40.880
And and it's great

00:49:40.880 --> 00:49:43.190
because she can just go and
create a web page and build

00:49:43.190 --> 00:49:43.370
this.

00:49:43.370 --> 00:49:46.940
I'm like okay, is now there's
enough content there that it

00:49:46.940 --> 00:49:47.210
makes

00:49:47.210 --> 00:49:49.250
sense to bring it into like a, a knowledge

00:49:49.250 --> 00:49:49.850
base based on

00:49:49.850 --> 00:49:50.030
that.

00:49:50.030 --> 00:49:53.295
So I'm going to shop around and
see what options I have there that

00:49:53.364 --> 00:49:53.964
Mario: Yeah.

00:49:54.789 --> 00:49:56.298
Alan: something that I w actually this

00:49:56.298 --> 00:49:57.511
I've got, don't

00:49:57.511 --> 00:50:01.420
try and make us another side
project is I'd love a directory.

00:50:02.570 --> 00:50:03.860
Indie alternatives.

00:50:03.860 --> 00:50:04.130
Right?

00:50:04.160 --> 00:50:06.950
Because I know that there's
going to be somebody with a,

00:50:07.100 --> 00:50:08.450
you know, a side project

00:50:08.480 --> 00:50:09.710
that, that is a, you know,

00:50:09.890 --> 00:50:10.820
$10 a month

00:50:10.910 --> 00:50:13.130
knowledge base that I
would love to support.

00:50:13.580 --> 00:50:14.690
And I'm like, you

00:50:14.690 --> 00:50:15.920
try and search for knowledge based

00:50:15.920 --> 00:50:17.390
software on Google and in our,

00:50:17.390 --> 00:50:17.990
even in

00:50:17.990 --> 00:50:19.760
alternative to, or whatever the,

00:50:19.940 --> 00:50:21.080
you know, they've review sites are.

00:50:21.380 --> 00:50:24.020
And there's just so many that,
and they're so flooded by the big

00:50:24.050 --> 00:50:24.500
players

00:50:24.500 --> 00:50:25.970
that if someone was like,

00:50:26.240 --> 00:50:27.830
this is an Indy,

00:50:27.860 --> 00:50:29.450
like this gets a, an official

00:50:29.490 --> 00:50:31.100
indie approval stamp

00:50:31.100 --> 00:50:35.720
of approval, then I'd be like,
yeah, it may not be the most

00:50:35.720 --> 00:50:40.238
featureful or complex, but it's, I
would like to support the creators.

00:50:40.238 --> 00:50:40.448
Right.

00:50:40.448 --> 00:50:40.658
So

00:50:40.968 --> 00:50:44.198
you'd like an Indy directory in the
alternatives or something like that.

00:50:44.918 --> 00:50:46.088
Mario: Yeah, that would be great.

00:50:46.088 --> 00:50:48.158
I wonder if indie
hackers has anything like

00:50:48.438 --> 00:50:48.498
Alan: I

00:50:48.728 --> 00:50:54.788
Mario: Cause that was that's, you know,
it seems like that would be something, I,

00:50:54.788 --> 00:50:56.528
mean, people do have.

00:50:57.248 --> 00:50:59.108
Their projects on indie hackers.

00:50:59.108 --> 00:51:01.388
Cause you can create a
profile for your project.

00:51:01.838 --> 00:51:02.948
And so I wonder if that's

00:51:03.328 --> 00:51:03.558
Alan: Yeah.

00:51:03.858 --> 00:51:04.118
Yeah.

00:51:04.148 --> 00:51:05.528
I'll go and poke around on any hackers.

00:51:05.528 --> 00:51:06.738
There's probably a good place to start.

00:51:06.738 --> 00:51:10.651
But yeah, don't make, it's just resist.

00:51:10.681 --> 00:51:12.031
Don't make it, don't make it Alex.

00:51:12.171 --> 00:51:12.351
Mario: Yeah.

00:51:13.431 --> 00:51:16.371
You can't focus on, on that right now.

00:51:16.401 --> 00:51:18.681
Stay the course stay the course.

00:51:19.531 --> 00:51:19.861
Alan: I was so

00:51:19.861 --> 00:51:20.161
bad at

00:51:20.161 --> 00:51:20.761
like, I

00:51:20.761 --> 00:51:21.691
mean, as

00:51:22.021 --> 00:51:22.921
a side thing on

00:51:22.921 --> 00:51:23.101
that

00:51:23.101 --> 00:51:23.221
as

00:51:23.221 --> 00:51:23.431
well.

00:51:23.431 --> 00:51:26.188
It's, it's amazing to me, just how

00:51:26.254 --> 00:51:29.301
You know, I, I think I said before
that, like, you know, ideas working on

00:51:29.301 --> 00:51:31.371
something begets more ideas

00:51:31.371 --> 00:51:33.171
and, you know, you th when you start,

00:51:33.171 --> 00:51:33.351
you know,

00:51:33.361 --> 00:51:34.731
you, if you're starting

00:51:34.851 --> 00:51:37.491
a project, you're like, I
don't know what to build.

00:51:37.791 --> 00:51:38.781
As soon as you start building

00:51:38.781 --> 00:51:40.731
something, they it's like a virus.

00:51:40.731 --> 00:51:43.251
And it just spreads all of these
potential things you could build.

00:51:43.251 --> 00:51:43.431
Right?

00:51:43.431 --> 00:51:44.211
Because you hit so

00:51:44.211 --> 00:51:46.581
many ideas and roadblocks,

00:51:46.581 --> 00:51:48.351
or like challenges, and you're
like, oh man, this should

00:51:48.351 --> 00:51:48.771
exist.

00:51:48.771 --> 00:51:50.231
And I wish I had had that And

00:51:50.841 --> 00:51:51.711
the list of

00:51:51.711 --> 00:51:53.631
potential projects just explodes.

00:51:53.677 --> 00:51:54.697
And it's amazing

00:51:54.697 --> 00:51:54.907
to me,

00:51:54.907 --> 00:51:56.917
the, the same thing happens

00:51:56.917 --> 00:51:58.927
with like, just opportunities
and context as well.

00:51:58.927 --> 00:51:59.077
Right.

00:51:59.077 --> 00:51:59.758
You know, if you

00:51:59.784 --> 00:52:02.334
somebody is looking at going
freelancing or something, it's

00:52:02.334 --> 00:52:03.564
like, but I don't know who to

00:52:03.628 --> 00:52:06.088
you know, I don't have any
clients or any contacts

00:52:06.088 --> 00:52:06.538
or anything.

00:52:07.363 --> 00:52:10.393
By just suddenly announcing and
talking to people about what you're

00:52:10.393 --> 00:52:12.433
doing, like a side project or

00:52:12.433 --> 00:52:13.123
something like this.

00:52:13.453 --> 00:52:14.443
It's amazing how many

00:52:14.443 --> 00:52:15.223
people have just reached

00:52:15.223 --> 00:52:17.563
out to me about other work as

00:52:17.563 --> 00:52:17.833
well.

00:52:17.833 --> 00:52:19.873
And it's like, nah, I'm that,
that the whole point is I'm

00:52:19.873 --> 00:52:22.903
not doing this, but it's a,

00:52:22.903 --> 00:52:25.093
it's, it's really it.

00:52:25.873 --> 00:52:27.433
I can, I know this, but I'd kind

00:52:27.433 --> 00:52:29.093
of forgotten it by just being

00:52:29.150 --> 00:52:31.190
in a, in a, in the zone in

00:52:31.190 --> 00:52:33.060
terms of working for other people.

00:52:33.060 --> 00:52:34.908
I kind of to come back to this and also

00:52:34.908 --> 00:52:34.998
to

00:52:34.998 --> 00:52:37.608
come back to this like
eight or nine years later,

00:52:37.908 --> 00:52:39.288
just how much

00:52:39.708 --> 00:52:41.028
more there is as well.

00:52:41.028 --> 00:52:41.778
You know, like when I

00:52:41.778 --> 00:52:44.017
was more public about what I was building,

00:52:44.047 --> 00:52:44.137
you

00:52:44.137 --> 00:52:46.327
know, eight to nine
years ago, there was so

00:52:46.327 --> 00:52:46.627
many

00:52:46.687 --> 00:52:48.847
like, you know, requests,
requests for coffee.

00:52:50.007 --> 00:52:50.307
Mario: Yeah.

00:52:50.368 --> 00:52:50.442
Alan: You

00:52:50.442 --> 00:52:53.532
know, brain picking as, as a service.

00:52:53.922 --> 00:52:54.372
And

00:52:54.372 --> 00:52:56.203
whereas now it's, it's, it's insane.

00:52:56.203 --> 00:52:58.993
There's just so much work as so
many more people wanting to build

00:52:58.993 --> 00:53:01.096
things that it's, it's
crazy, you know, that

00:53:01.096 --> 00:53:01.246
your

00:53:01.246 --> 00:53:04.666
moment you say you're building something,
everyone's like, Ooh, we should talk.

00:53:04.666 --> 00:53:05.806
And I'm like, no, I'm building my

00:53:05.806 --> 00:53:06.136
thing.

00:53:07.546 --> 00:53:09.586
So it's, if there is anybody that's

00:53:09.586 --> 00:53:09.796
Yeah.

00:53:09.796 --> 00:53:10.156
Like

00:53:10.216 --> 00:53:14.266
on the fence of, you know, not knowing
what to, what to build are being

00:53:14.266 --> 00:53:14.656
scared

00:53:14.656 --> 00:53:16.216
about, you know, finding

00:53:16.276 --> 00:53:16.876
contacts

00:53:16.876 --> 00:53:17.446
and things.

00:53:17.446 --> 00:53:17.596
It's

00:53:17.596 --> 00:53:18.106
just like

00:53:18.166 --> 00:53:19.347
it's things

00:53:19.452 --> 00:53:19.722
Mario: Oh

00:53:20.547 --> 00:53:20.937
Alan: the moment you

00:53:20.937 --> 00:53:21.387
start them

00:53:22.332 --> 00:53:22.902
Mario: yeah.

00:53:23.502 --> 00:53:25.780
That reminds me you had this other idea.

00:53:25.811 --> 00:53:27.341
You had this other idea with

00:53:27.731 --> 00:53:28.281
Alan: Yeah, yeah.

00:53:28.281 --> 00:53:28.541
Yeah.

00:53:29.801 --> 00:53:30.731
I did fall.

00:53:30.761 --> 00:53:31.421
I that's,

00:53:31.451 --> 00:53:32.852
that's progressing slower

00:53:32.864 --> 00:53:33.324
slowly,

00:53:33.324 --> 00:53:34.387
just because of time.

00:53:34.387 --> 00:53:34.881
But yeah, I

00:53:34.881 --> 00:53:35.291
kind of.

00:53:36.081 --> 00:53:38.841
I demo to it, to some
people the other week.

00:53:38.931 --> 00:53:40.761
And they were all like, oh
my God, where do I buy this?

00:53:40.761 --> 00:53:41.091
And I'm like,

00:53:41.751 --> 00:53:43.251
okay, I really need to finish that up.

00:53:44.211 --> 00:53:46.551
It's a really easy sell, which is kind of

00:53:46.557 --> 00:53:47.289
Surprising, right?

00:53:47.289 --> 00:53:47.679
Yeah,

00:53:47.679 --> 00:53:48.249
exactly.

00:53:48.249 --> 00:53:49.614
It's so yeah, I

00:53:49.614 --> 00:53:52.775
kind of, I should get, get on that
and and get it out because it's

00:53:52.775 --> 00:53:54.335
working, it just needs wrapping up

00:53:54.335 --> 00:53:55.115
into a

00:53:55.205 --> 00:53:56.435
like, you know, product page.

00:53:56.435 --> 00:53:57.785
And now as I've got

00:53:57.785 --> 00:53:58.715
paddle access, that's a

00:53:58.715 --> 00:53:59.345
very good point.

00:53:59.375 --> 00:54:00.545
Now, as I'm a puddle

00:54:00.612 --> 00:54:02.885
approval a person, then I could sell it.

00:54:02.885 --> 00:54:03.125
Right.

00:54:05.215 --> 00:54:06.655
Mario: Did they have
to approve the product

00:54:06.725 --> 00:54:07.175
Alan: Probably.

00:54:07.175 --> 00:54:07.445
Yes.

00:54:07.445 --> 00:54:09.415
Yeah, because actually that's
a good point because this has

00:54:10.415 --> 00:54:12.335
no, it doesn't have physical
thinkers, just QR code.

00:54:12.335 --> 00:54:12.515
Right.

00:54:12.515 --> 00:54:12.875
So

00:54:12.883 --> 00:54:14.364
I can, yeah, I should check on

00:54:14.364 --> 00:54:14.484
that

00:54:15.864 --> 00:54:18.215
because if I'm sure if it's,
it's no big deal because it

00:54:18.215 --> 00:54:18.575
meets the

00:54:18.575 --> 00:54:22.295
same list of requirements as
the as dot plans, so, huh.

00:54:22.355 --> 00:54:22.835
Interesting.

00:54:22.955 --> 00:54:23.135
Yeah.

00:54:23.165 --> 00:54:25.625
cause that was one of my things is
like to set up billing is always

00:54:25.625 --> 00:54:27.065
like a little, but I guess once

00:54:27.065 --> 00:54:28.565
I've done it for one thing it's easy to do

00:54:28.565 --> 00:54:28.835
for another.

00:54:30.135 --> 00:54:30.525
Mario: Yeah,

00:54:30.555 --> 00:54:31.695
Just watch out for

00:54:31.995 --> 00:54:33.255
getting derailed,

00:54:33.440 --> 00:54:34.430
Alan: yeah, I know this

00:54:34.695 --> 00:54:37.335
Mario: on that instead of
your main, main project.

00:54:38.990 --> 00:54:39.230
Alan: Cool.

00:54:40.275 --> 00:54:40.755
Mario: Yeah.

00:54:41.330 --> 00:54:41.540
Alan: All right.

00:54:41.595 --> 00:54:41.895
Mario: Yeah.

00:54:41.925 --> 00:54:42.045
Alan: Me.

00:54:42.045 --> 00:54:45.065
I'm just trying to my I'm
having computer problems.

00:54:45.065 --> 00:54:47.585
So I'm on battery at the moment
and it's just down to 5%.

00:54:47.585 --> 00:54:49.355
So I'm just going to see if I don't

00:54:49.434 --> 00:54:50.394
Mario: Oh yeah, no worries.

00:54:50.465 --> 00:54:52.628
Alan: Let me just find a what's
the easiest way to do this.

00:54:53.138 --> 00:54:54.488
Maybe if I put this in, hold on.

00:54:57.248 --> 00:54:57.548
Okay.

00:54:57.638 --> 00:54:58.338
Maybe that will work.

00:54:58.410 --> 00:55:00.990
So yeah, I can't run my, I can't.

00:55:01.290 --> 00:55:01.710
Oh, hold on.

00:55:01.900 --> 00:55:04.500
It's going to pause for a
minute while it does something.

00:55:05.639 --> 00:55:06.179
Mario: All right.

00:55:06.570 --> 00:55:07.380
Alan: I don't know what it's doing.

00:55:07.380 --> 00:55:11.130
Everything's just hung so I can
hear you, but I can't see anything.

00:55:11.309 --> 00:55:11.789
Mario: There you go.

00:55:12.209 --> 00:55:12.419
It's

00:55:12.510 --> 00:55:12.930
Alan: I back.

00:55:14.399 --> 00:55:15.539
Mario: I can see you and I can hear

00:55:15.575 --> 00:55:17.675
Alan: I've got black screens at
the moment, so, oh, here we go.

00:55:17.705 --> 00:55:18.155
You're over there.

00:55:18.399 --> 00:55:18.849
Mario: Ah,

00:55:19.805 --> 00:55:25.506
Alan: So yeah, my 16 inch MacBook pro I
don't know whether it's the heat or what,

00:55:25.536 --> 00:55:29.867
but I can't run the internal monitor and
the external monitor at the same time.

00:55:29.898 --> 00:55:30.438
Without.

00:55:31.438 --> 00:55:32.008
Mario: Oh, wow.

00:55:33.008 --> 00:55:33.878
Ah, I see.

00:55:35.468 --> 00:55:36.008
Can you hear me?