[00:00:00] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.

[00:00:13] Pia: And I am Pia Lee. How are you? Dan Hammond?

[00:00:15] Dan: I'm very well, thank you. Still on our sojourn in Italy working here. So I've got the windows closed, but people might hear the sound of an Italian street, revving mopeds, although, honking. uh, actually this part of Italy, not too much, although I have seen some unheard, some honking but um, not too much, but I want change. 

[00:00:38] Pia: this is nothing rude. We are talking about the sound of horns.

[00:00:44] Dan: I haven't seen or heard any of that, the latter. But um, but one change here, which is really interesting is the legendary moped, you, know, the scooter here which I think is just absolutely a trademark of Italy. And also, Just a brilliant way for reducing traffic volume. But they, we started to see quite a lot of electric ones. There's lots of new designs of electric scooters and they, they're silent and, uh, but they look really good fun. Really good fun. So yes, the transition has started here, which is, uh, 

[00:01:16] Pia: did you, did you take one out to go and trial it? 

[00:01:19] Dan: Not an electric one. We haven't managed to get our hands on one yet, but the next time we go we occasionally take one out so that we can explore a little bit. So I will report back on the electric scooter experience. Yeah. Can't wait. 

[00:01:32] Pia: the Teslas of Vespers.

[00:01:34] Dan: Exactly. And they've made them look, as I say, they're like electric cars. They've flipped the design a little bit, so they're quite appealing and a bit different. So, yes, I will, 

[00:01:43] I'll 

[00:01:43] Pia: Call, maybe you're called Veslers.

[00:01:45] Dan: Isn't that a, don't you use them for making cigarettes? No, That's Rizlas. Anyway, I think we, we may be slightly off the topic here, but to, and what is the topic? The topic for today is autonomy. You'll remember our li, our listener will remember that in the last series we talked to Tom McLaughlin, who has done a lot of work, he had, it gave us a very. Honest account of his efforts to bring more autonomy and self-management of leadership to his organization. And along the way, he mentioned the person that he went to for help with this. And he first of all took his course and then he went to, actually, actually got him At his side to, to assist him.

[00:02:29] And, uh, so we're gonna be hearing from that person today. We're gonna be talking about his work with teams and, uh, the challenge all predicated on bringing more autonomy to teams and organizations. So, that person is Jon Barnes, and we'll go and hear from him now. 

[00:02:48] Pia: And a very big warm welcome Jon. Lovely to have you on the program.

[00:02:52] Jon: Thanks for having me.

[00:02:53] Pia: Oh, fantastic. Now you are somebody that has devoted a lot of your professional life to autonomy and self-managed teams and understanding that, so we're gonna be really interested to understand what your work has been and your perception of teams and organizations, it'd be good to get into that conversation. But first I hand you over for the card exercise with the young Dan Hammond. So strap yourself in because at this point you need to be self-managed to get through this bit.

[00:03:25] Dan: Okay. Well this is genuinely a, it's a green card, so you've been excused a little bit. My biggest achievement is.

[00:03:33] Jon: My biggest achievement is, oh God, that's really hard. I, the thing that comes to mind most actually is very young. I played squash professionally. It's not work related, but I can't think of anything I've learned more from. Playing sport at a reasonably high standard. You know, the amount of ups and downs that you experience, not just in any sport taken to extremes, but particularly when a young boy, uh, with all sorts of quirky emotions to deal with along the way. So my biggest achievement is probably that, actually it's the career I had as a young man.

[00:04:08] Pia: And do you still play?

[00:04:10] Jon: I've just started again, actually, I've not played competitively for exactly 10 years, and I've just started again recently. So, I play, I played with some friends and I hadn't done it for ages and I was like, I, this is awesome. I forgot I can do this. And, uh, so yeah. I'm gonna start again soon.

[00:04:24] Dan: I mean that, that's an experience I didn't really have. I used to do a lot of running but never did a proper team sport. But as I've got to understand teams in sport a little bit more, I've been amazed at the sort of candor with which they talk to each other and and sort of having been in the corporate world think, wow, if you, if you could take that into the corporate world, a, it would be amazing in terms of the amount of feedback people get. But b, I'm sure it just would not be acceptable to it's, it's a sort of fascinating mix to me now there's. Yeah. Seeing, seeing sport, you've sort of envy that snowstorm of feedback that people get to it to improve, and those watching videos again and being really candid, oh, I did a crap tackle on that person, or whatever it, it's, uh, yeah. It's fascinating to me to see those differences.

[00:05:12] Jon: Well, for me, squash is the really, the thing that taught me self-analysis. I would my dad bought me a camcorder when I was about 11, and I would film every match I played and then I'd go home and rip it to shreds. You know, I'd, I'd really look at everything I did. And I had this He played for England, and I would watch him, but he was left-handed and so I couldn't quite identify with what it would be like to swing like him. So I set up a mirror at the opposite end of my,

[00:05:37] Dan: Oh my word.

[00:05:38] Jon: bedroom so that I could, so that I could watch him play right-handed and then I could go and more easily copy him because I could relate. So self-analysis is maybe the thing I learned most from squash, but maybe it's just an insight into the slightly geeky mind I

[00:05:52] Dan: I was gonna say, we, we we're already getting to know quite a lot about you, Jon. So that says a lot, the mirror is everything. But, uh, why don't we keep on that track? Tell us a little bit about you even going back to those days and how you got to this point. Tell us about your, give us a quick bio of Jon Barnes.

[00:06:08] Jon: Yeah, thanks. Well, so I mean the, the thread that is quite a good starting point actually. So that was, you know, sport was a massive part of my upbringing. I was really, uh, emotionally I struggled with sport. I would definitely, uh, lose my temper a lot, cry a lot. So managing my emotions was really difficult for me as a young athlete.

[00:06:27] On the side. I grew up in France. My parents bought a derelict barn that they turned into a holiday center. And I just watched them create this business out of, I mean, literally with their bare hands. They lost all their money when they bought it because of what was it called Black Tuesday that day in the nineties where the exchange rate crashed? Yeah. So they, they had nothing and I remember them all winter long building.

[00:06:50] And then it just meant that I lived in this business. You know, I remember being 12, they'd leave for the weekend, there'd be a hundred customers. They'd come and tell me the dishwasher was broken. I'd call the builder, get the plumber or whatever to come and fix it. So I grew up in that way, and meanwhile, I hated school. Absolutely hated it. I was an awful kid, actually. I remember, uh, I once threw my teacher's, uh, bag out of the second floor window, which I'm, I'm not, not proud of

[00:07:16] Dan: that's, that's up there.

[00:07:18] Jon: Yeah, I just had a real allergy to authority. 'cause I remember feeling like, I wasn't learning. I remember feeling very trapped, like almost literally trapped. I mean, I guess you are, 'cause you're not, you're not allowed to, you know, pee without asking for permission at this point. And meanwhile at home I was making websites at nighttime or, or whatever. I had this mad freedom my parents gave me. They were strict in other ways, but I, I had this kind of dual thing.

[00:07:44] And I think that, you know, that must be one of the reasons why now I play with this kind of polarity or seeming polarity between authority and autonomy of trying to build workplaces where, you know, I think that young kid would've thrived on some level because of the autonomy, yet mentorship or the autonomy, and yet I think there's value in authority as well. So I try and build workplaces that I think, you know, the kernel of which must have come when I was, uh, very small actually.

[00:08:16] Yeah, so then I went to university in Manchester, studied, you know, management and business. I found it entirely pointless, to be honest. But I, you know, I learned lots of other stuff like, you know, how to, dunno, do my laundry, do stuff like that for myself. Navigated city because I'd come from um, rural France and it was all pretty new to me. So there was a lot of growing in other ways. But I don't think I grew that much, let's say, professionally from it, uh.

[00:08:41] And then my first jobs were in digital agencies. Worked for a smallish tech company for a while and then moved into advertising in London. And in each place I worked in there was, you know, the culture was anywhere from absolutely fine, you know, adequate, to, to pathologically dangerous act actually genuinely abusive in, in some, uh, cases. And I just remember it being, you know, just being almost like a onlooker feel, feeling like I wasn't in this thing, I was watching it unfold and sometimes derail in front of my eyes. 

[00:09:19] And meanwhile, I'd watch this documentary about Ricardo Semler uh, the, the famous Brazilian entrepreneur who, who, you know, was probably one of the first real self-managed examples we have, perhaps. And meanwhile I'd, you know, I'd just watched a documentary, read his books, and I was like, surely this can be different, you know?

[00:09:39] And then the thing I'd attribute most of my professional development to or taking off was actually, I worked for a consultancy called Hyper Island. And so it was a Swedish kind of digital tech school that was famous for really creating great cultures. And that was a huge. Leadership and development opportunity for me. I worked with some fantastic facilitators and coaches who are just incredibly wise, do beautiful work. And I had a boss, David McCall, who was just, you know that example of how bosses can break you or they can make you, and this guy was amazing. He just like helped me to grow and trusted me. He gave me that autonomy and I just Felt like I did 10 years learning in two sometimes, he was so fantastic.

[00:10:25] Yeah, and then that, that took me to today really where I've been a consultant helping organizations to move in the direction of autonomy or self-management to whatever degree they want to do that, or as far as they want to go with that. And I do it by coaching teams as well as by working one-on-one typically with CEOs, because I do find there's huge value in working from the paradigm that the organization already operates from.

[00:10:51] Pia: Well, there you go. That's, I mean, it's con considering, you know, you're still a very young man, that's a lot you packed in there. 

[00:10:57] So tell us a little bit about this world. Autonomy and, and also accountability and self-management. So what are the, what is it and what isn't it to start us off with?

[00:11:12] Jon: Yeah, I mean, uh, those are the, those are two very good questions 'cause there's some definite myths around it. So I'll actually start with the, what isn't it. It isn't a place where anybody does whatever they want, uh, at any given time. Uh, that's one myth. The other one is it isn't a utopia where. Everything's happy and there's unicorns and stuff. 

[00:11:31] Dan: Disappointing, but. 

[00:11:33] Jon: yeah, I know it's annoying. It's definitely not either of those things. What is it? I mean, for me it's a journey of a group of people moving towards ways of working that are predicated on autonomy. So that means that I have, I, I would describe autonomy as two paradoxical things, perhaps. Uh, on the one side is probably something slightly left wing, like freedom or uh, or choice or something. And on the other hand is probably something slightly right wing like responsibility or accountability. You know, things that can feel on the one hand liberating and about you know, I'm opening my hands up as I speak now, like, about choice and, and then on the other hand, quite directive actually. And, and that matters to me because I think that's where we grow up in our ability to embrace that, that seeming paradox.

[00:12:27] And so what it can look like is a, a variety of things. It can look like having. Managers who act, you know, like facilitative leaders or coach leaders or servant leaders or whatever we wanna look like, but they're people who are helping somebody else to grow and make their decisions or helping a group to grow and make their decisions. That's one vote, that's one flavor of it.

[00:12:51] Another one is the adoption of a bunch of tools and processes and methodologies that allow groups to and individuals to self-regulate from the way we hold and facilitate meetings to the decision making models and thresholds we use in order to be able to move forward without falling into consensus traps.

[00:13:10] Actually that would be another answer, what isn't it? It is not deciding by consensus or going round in circles. It's as much not that as, it's not somebody deciding for everybody else.

[00:13:21] Pia: But I guess with the traditional systems, we're not necessarily built for that level of, you know, well it's complexity and, and it's holding sometimes sort of separate things together. So, what are typical organizations that you walk into and you work with, and what are they trying to achieve?

[00:13:40] Jon: Yeah, I think the where I'm lucky is that maybe it's the way I positioned myself or something, but when someone comes to me, they have A pre required level of open-mindedness I find naturally. Like, it doesn't seem that people who hate the idea that their team should have any choice over their lives come to me very often. So typically I'm lucky because I'm faced with people like Tom who you interviewed, who are already pretty open-minded that there's a different way. Uh, quite often it's a founder or CEO and quite often they have a personal need. And this is something I had come across accidentally.

[00:14:18] I was always interested in autonomy and self-management from the perspective of teams that, that as a team member, it feels, you know, like me when I was 10 or 12 or whatever, having, you know, in my mind back then, probably some sort of tyrant above me, I'm sure I actually had lovely teachers. I. That I just treated badly. But, but I always thought of it from that perspective. And actually increasingly I realized, speaking to my clients, that from their perspective, from from, from the point of view of the top, you have limited bandwidth. 'cause there's, you know, in a traditional organization, one person at the top really, uh, or at least a small group.

[00:14:53] But you have all these people beneath, because they're on some level disempowered or don't have the requisite tools available to them, having all their decisions float upwards. And the limited bandwidth at the top makes it very, very stressful and overwhelming to be a leader. Uh, 'cause not only are you taking responsibility for big things like the direction or the vision or the strategy, but you're also taking responsibility sometimes for other people's feelings, uh, which is you know, no, no suitable definition of adulthood to me.

[00:15:27] And so increasingly I realized that, actually, one of the people who benefits most from a shift towards autonomy is the leader, 'cause they can free up that bandwidth and start to use it for clearer thinking, for nurturing a culture, for strategic direction, whatever that might look like. Yeah, and that's been a kind of accidental learning for me, I'd say. It's not one I expected.

[00:15:51] Dan: One of the things you mentioned was about processes and we, you know, it's not about making decisions by consensus, it's, that's so interesting. All these words that we use about culture and about the way we do things, they're sort of portmanteau words, aren't they? You open them up and people are seeing different things come out of them. So you'd even, people hear people say, oh, it's a great workplace. We all decide by consensus, so, um, whereas, you know, that's, no.

[00:16:16] Could you talk a bit about that whole area of, particularly around decision making and the processes that you've seen work to, where there, there's an appeal about consensus isn't there, but, but what do you actually, what, what have you seen work and what do you take into organizations in that area?

[00:16:35] Jon: Yeah, so I think there's a few models we can talk about, maybe like on a spectrum from solo to together or something. You know, at the bottom I'd probably have autocracy. That's when one person decides for everybody. And of course the downsides of that are, are very obvious, right? That if you have a an awful dictator nobody beneath that person is gonna be experiencing anything like agency or self-determination. And so that's incredibly disengaging. Also, if that person, they can make blanket decisions which can, if bad decisions can be bad decisions that affect everybody, if good decisions can be good decisions that affect everybody, but the, what we don't notice is that obviously the benefit of autocracy is speed. Whether we like it or not, uh, dictators can make decisions at scale fast, and there can be some value to that. However, it goes without saying that, that's just an incredibly disengaging way to work. And it's not actually complexity friendly because one rule fits all doesn't fit all. 

[00:17:39] So then above that we have democracy. So democracy is a bit more engaging, right? 'cause we can decide together, we'll have some input. You get more perspectives. The problem is, is kind of depends on the quality of the question. If you ask people are they in or are they out? Uh, which is a dumb question, it can only invite dumb answers. And typically it's divisive, right? So 52% of people are happy and 48%, uh, are unhappy. And that's not a great way to have any sort of harmony or integration between worldviews. So it's also quite binary.

[00:18:09] Then I'd say we go to consensus, so this is, let's all agree. The value is it can be highly engaging. We will speak, we'll contribute, uh, but the downside, you know, it's like, I, I actually feel I talk about consensus a lot. Yeah. I can see you both. Uh, for listeners, you know, rolling eyes, it's just exhausting when things go round in circles. And it's like, do we all agree or does just like no one really agrees. You know, what is it that Camel was a horse built by consensus? It's just like so average and lame by the end.

[00:18:40] So above that, we have the tool that I most advocate for when making big decisions, so not all decisions but big ones, is consent. And so just, the, it's, it sounds pedantic consensus is we're all trying to agree and consensus. No one has a paramount disagreement, right? Like it, so we'll often say, is it safe to try? Or I'll often ask the group, does anybody really disagree? Or would this, would this set us backwards? And the reason for doing that is that you can make a proposal and if it's unsafe, then we can stop you. Uh, and, and thank God. But if it's tolerable, then let's try.

[00:19:23] Pia: And I think it must be dependent on quite, and we talked to Tom about this, a level of maturity and groundedness from the leader, because if you've got a slight vulnerability or uh, a need to control or just any insecurity, that's gonna become very difficult to manage as a leader.

[00:19:44] Jon: mean on behalf of the leader?

[00:19:45] Pia: Yeah.

[00:19:46] Jon: Yeah.

[00:19:46] Pia: Do you, do you find that as one of the biggest problems? 

[00:19:49] Jon: Yeah. Yeah, totally. I mean, you know, again, I'm lucky that the people who uh, come to work with me have already got some view that there must be something better than all decisions coming up to the top. And I think it becomes a trade off. You know, there's that beautiful Thomas Sowell quote There are no solutions, only trade-offs, and that's why I said it's no utopia before and it's no utopia after. But from the perspective of a leader certainly who comes to work with me, that trade-off balance is starting to move. So they might be currently choosing control over. Spaciousness in their lives, right? Like I'm choosing to control everything. And the downside of that is I've got no space or ease. But gradually that balance is starting to go the other way. And they're starting to go, do you know what? I want space in my life and I can tell that to get that space, I'm gonna have to let go of some control.

[00:20:43] Now this is where it can also be both. And to some degree, like for a leader to regain that space, that doesn't mean that things get out of control. You could put in processes, like I just mentioned, consent based decision making we use for a lot of decisions that are above a certain threshold, let's say that decision could be expensive if it goes wrong or damaging to the brand. So these are processes that help to mitigate risk. There's a number of things like that that we can do. But I do do a lot of coaching one-on-one with leaders who over time, you know, learn to learn to let go of some aspects, but actually that helps them gain more focus on the stuff that remains.

[00:21:25] Tom actually was you know, my challenge to him because he, he was wanting to let go, but found he had one foot on the accelerator and one foot on the brakes. And so the, the, we ca we tried to pin down what was the belief underneath him that was preventing him from letting go. And he had a few, but the main one was like, you know, things will fall apart if I'm not there. So I asked him, well, how can that, that's an assumption you're making about the world. How can we find out if that's true? And of course, the only way to find out is to get out the way. So we, he actually took five weeks off.

[00:21:57] Pia: That's right. You went on holiday.

[00:21:58] Jon: That's right. And it, I think it was pretty terrifying for him. But we had a pre-mortem, you know, we asked, we asked the group, what, what, what are you gonna miss about Tom not being here? And everything they missed, we replaced with a new process where they could self-manage that decision. And when he came back, what was really, he was, you knows he's a funny guy. And he came back saying like, my main annoyance of this process is that I wasn't actually that missed.

[00:22:21] Pia: Yeah.

[00:22:23] Dan: Yeah, he explored that on when we, when we talked to him. And that, that's confronting though as well, isn't it? And it's one of the. Uh, that's underlying that underlying belief, isn't it? That actually, if what, what, what value do I have if I don't, don't do these things? And as you said, I suppose it's a question of finding a different space to operate in that that will allow you to move differently.

[00:22:44] Can I, can I just, something else around the Tom experience that really was interesting to me and I wanted to ask you about, was that that's the sort of challenge for the team, for the leader, if you like. What about the, the team members, I'm, I'm oversimplifying, but the people who you think, oh, this is a, this is fantastic. I'm gonna have this amazing workplace. This sounds brilliant. What, what could possibly go wrong? But what I. Heard from Tom a bit was, was there is still, there is actually some res resistance among people there, there's some expectations of what work is and isn't in terms of that. What, what did, did I pick that up correctly? What do you see about that? That, that people might even push back on this, which sounds rather wonderful, but actually there are things holding the the beneficiaries back as well, if you like?

[00:23:35] Jon: Yeah, absolutely. And that's why I've come to see that I think actually a lot of the benefits of more autonomy is that can actually be for a leader anyway. But the from a team member's perspective, I definitely see some patterns, I'd say. I think there can be a slight, in a culture that feels slightly unsafe, there can be a concern that this is too good to be true. It could be like, really? You're giving me freedom? But if I get it wrong, like then what's gonna happen? So there's a psychological safety type issue, which is something, you know, we'll tend to work with. Like, can, can we, you kind of want to create a scenario where very quickly people go and make slightly substandard decisions. And the reaction to those things is, Oh, thanks for sharing the mistake kind of thing. That's awesome. How would you go about it differently next time to quickly go look, the focus we are putting isn't on the outcome of the decision. It's on the process so that we grow. So I think that's quite key. 'cause there, there can be a slight like, eh, do I, do I trust this new thing?

[00:24:36] But another one I think is a fear of responsibility. Is it, is because, you know, I'm kind of defining. Autonomy sometimes is like authority and accountability. So I have the authority to make decisions. I'm also accountable for my decisions. And that can be slightly, that can be slightly scary when we're not used to it, you know, like, 

[00:24:54] Dan: not what I signed up for. Maybe

[00:24:56] Jon: No, well, no, exactly. Normally the boss is accountable for my bad decisions, you know, like, and that actually happens, you know, you can have heads of department or something get in trouble because someone in their team made a mistake. And in, in my view, that's quite infantilizing of, uh, that person. What we, what we really want is to.

[00:25:14] You know, for me growing up is a process of gradually being able to lift slightly heavier weights in terms of responsibility. You know, like, when, when one becomes apparent, that's a, that's now a new responsibility that we, we, we've never held that level of weight before and now we're having to hold it. And in the workplace, when we hold that back from someone I think we prevent them from growing.

[00:25:35] Having said that, at some point, some of us just don't want to lift that weight. I just don't want that responsibility. And so what we will do is we'll define very clearly what responsibility people have and not, and we do that by defining roles of work very clearly. So people will typically hold several roles, and within those roles there's a list of responsibilities for which they have authority and they're accountable for. So that helps to define the weight someone is. And then we ask them to volunteer to the role. So they actually, there's a process we go through where people actually, we list the roles and people will put their hands up and saying, I put my hands up. And sometimes I'll even do some mock ritual where they'll say, I, I gladly take on the, you know, the power entrusted in me and I understand the weight of responsibility that I have to hold. But the reason I do it is because I think we, we need to know what responsibility we're signing up to or not.

[00:26:29] And I would say, just to make sure I'm answering your original question, Dan, that can be a bit daunting for people. I find that over time we actually want it. Responsibility is an odd thing. I think in philosophy they might call it a negative freedom to when you are trapped by it you know, you are, you are, you now have fewer choices or something by virtue of being had to take responsibility for this. But weirdly, it makes you feel more free or, or more fulfilled that you are taking it. 

[00:26:58] Pia: it makes sense. I mean, the old system doesn't necessarily work. I think that what's interesting, and I remember Tom mentioning this, there is a natural competitiveness for people to want to, to go up some kind of career ladder with some kind of increased accountability with greater pay. We've been very much brought up in that system, so it's, it's quite a lot of unlearning, you know, in, in order to be able to, to make that work.

[00:27:31] And then ultimately, again, if the shit really hits the fan, who does have ultimate accountability? And is it really that person or is it, is it a person that actually is running the organization or running the function?

[00:27:49] Jon: Yeah, I mean, just a couple of reactions to that. In, in the model that I tend to advocate for, I mean, I, I, I wanna just say for listeners, I don't advocate any particular dogmas 'cause that would be ironic. But there's a, there's a theme across my, my work. So I don't subscribe to specific models like sociocracy or holacracy or whatever, but I tend to picking from various elements depending on what I think's relevant to what's in front of me. But quite often it will involve this clarifying of roles and responsibilities. And what we'll say is that you are the CEO of your role. So if you are, if you are, if you've got the social media publishing role, you are the CEO of that role, and someone else might be the CEO of the strategy role, which is kind of, uh, above that, right? You can't tell them how to do their strategy and they can't tell you how to do your social media publishing. However, your social media publishing needs to be in line with the strategy because the strategy is is governing. In a sense it's not the person that is governing you, but the strategic framework governs the tasks that you've got at play. So, so ideally, you know, if we hold true to the, the model, uh, the person who has that role is accountable for that role.

[00:29:01] Now how we react to disappointing situations is another thing, right? You, you might, you might mess up. But, uh, and, and we shouldn't save you from that mess up. 'cause I think the slight increase in temperature you feel is where you're about to learn. However, if we scold you though, that's, that's, that's just really gonna burn. So I think that reaction to disappointment matters a lot.

[00:29:26] I just wanna talk about the, the other bit you mentioned Pierre, though, which is around our natural inclination. I. Towards competition. I don't know if it's a competition per se. It might be, you know, there's a reading of Darwin that is, that it's the, it's collaboration that is super key to, to adaptation and survival. But regardless, we are certainly status animals. I think it's Will Storr's book Status Games I've got in the back of my mind here how we are just constantly playing status games. You know, so we're either playing success games, like I've got, I'm trying to show you all that, I don't know. I've achieved a lot, or I've got money, you know, I've probably done it on this call. I've probably said things to a, to aggrandize myself slightly. Or if I can't play that game with you because your, your status is above me, then I might play a different status game. I might play a virtue game well, I'm just a really good person, right?

[00:30:20] And if you're, you know, he, he has the example that if you're Mark Zuckerberg, you turn up to meetings in flip flops. And everyone, everyone, normally the person wearing the suit is the per person at the top of the ladder. But when he turns up, he wears flip flops to say, I don't even operate by the ladder. It's still playing the same status game.

[00:30:37] And that really exists in teams, and it is an unlearning process. The, but the, for me, what is this about? It's about a need for progression. Now, if we unpick that, what does it look like? There's a financial component, no doubt. And that can be about self-worth. So what I'm actually trying to achieve is self worth. And there are other ways of getting self-worth other than earning cash. Like actually loving yourself is, is one method of achieving self-worth. Another one is definitely, I hear it a lot. It's been, I've been surprised by how important this is to people. Recognition. That word is used so much, but, but sometimes their confusing recognition with money. I'm not saying money can't be a valuable sign to somebody that they're recognized, but there are others, like Pats on the back are really awesome. Compliments are awesome. Uh, being valued by your teammate, uh, teammates or having your work celebrated. Those are forms of recognition that need baking into a culture.

[00:31:33] And then finally, I think one thing that underpins progression for me is an inner progression. Is what I said earlier about lifting more weights. It's the, it's the feeling that I'm growing, like I'm capable of doing more than I was months ago. And, I certainly, you know, because in in the organizations I work with, uh, I'm, there's nothing socialist about this. I'm not asking everyone's paid the same in any way, shape or form. In fact, it's probably the part of the work I'm least directive about because I think it's very complex and nuanced how we do these things. But what I do think, uh, what I do dial us towards slightly more is some sort of intrinsic motivation or what. And I think in Rotterian psychotherapy might be the internal locus of control. And it's this sense that the way to achieve my need for progression is through my own internal yardstick, not by an extrinsic ladder that the world has created, that I go up.

[00:32:29] Creating cultures and incentive frameworks that make it possible for me to try new roles that I've not tried before, simply because my curiosity is really peaked by them. I've found when people embrace that, that they seem to be more fulfilled whilst not actually adhering to the traditional status game.

[00:32:50] Dan: I hear a theme coming through what you're saying, Jon, around what people might call adult development. You sort of talked about organizations infantilizing people, and that increased burden, that that's a, it's a challenging path, isn't it? That to that you are really, in some cases, this is an oversimplification, but asking people to do some growing up. And I'm, uh, which is a tough call, isn't it? And that's not always what people have signed up for in the workplace.

[00:33:21] Jon: No, totally. And I'm, I'm aware that this is the part of, uh, my work. You know, I can try and rationalize this by saying that, I don't know, I think it's, dunno if it was a Keegan study or just one that he cites that as people grow through stages of development, they seem to become more effective. So there's definitely a commercial, you know, reason or rationale why I would share that, but I can't hide from listeners that there's an ideological one too, which is that I simply think that, like I'm not willing to let us, let us off the hook. Me included. I think we are capable of so much as people, and I don't just mean that in our external abilities, I mean, in our internal abilities. And when, and it is just that they're linked. Like I just said, when when I grow as a person, I find myself having more agency and ability to support others in the world around me.

[00:34:10] Now, so then I wonder, you know, behaviorism is so. It's just everywhere. You know, at school, you, you get carrots and I mean, my son, he now goes to school. That's another story. He didn't go to school till he was 12, 'cause we wanted him to self-manage as much as possible. It's just that self-management took him towards, uh, asking for school, which was a paradox. I, I, I embraced eventually. It's, it's kind of beautiful actually, when I, when I realized this is, this is him, this is him directing us. I was like, this is really beautiful, you know? 

[00:34:39] Dan: success. 

[00:34:40] Jon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Perhaps, perhaps. But he says in the classroom, you know, he gets these points for good behavior and he gets points docked for bad behavior, a bit like in Gryffindor. And, you know, it is just proper carrot and stick. You know, it's, it is, it is just like, couldn't be, couldn't be more obvious. And so then you're going, well, you know, what's wrong with keratin stick? Uh, well, it certainly can make people in the short term, make. Decisions you want them to make. But I don't want him to make good decisions. I want him to make good decisions because he wants to make good decisions. Because then that will dictate so many subsequent decisions he makes. If he does the right thing, quote unquote, to make me happy that as soon as I'm not there, well, there's no reason for him to make the right decision. I want him to do it because there's some internal moral compass or whatever that is driving him to do that. 

[00:35:32] That's a massive request to make. So then I ask, well, what would a, rather than a behavioristic organization look like? That I think, I think adopts a style of leadership that's more like puppy training, where it's like, if you do this, you get a treat. You know, I think it really does come from, from that kind of Skinner style leadership. Then I'm wondering what's the developmental version of it and, uh, unfortunately it's not as clear. Apart from it does seem that the way to grow is to struggle with our internal decision making and sense-making abilities, supported by people so that we are unsafe. So in other, in other words, it seems the way towards development is a degree of autonomy where we are safe but uncomfortable. And, uh, you know, may, maybe this is why work goes up and down for me because it's not a great sell to say I want to create an organization where everyone's safe, but I'm comfortable.

[00:36:29] Dan: Woo. You've got yourself a tagline there.

[00:36:32] Jon: Well, yeah. And, and you do find in self-organizing teams that reten people will, there'll be a natural leaving of people. And I've had people quote, I don't wanna be in a place where I have to learn constantly. I've literally had that said. But then quite often they'll come back, uh, or ask to come back and it's because it was simpler in the other place. But actually that bit of challenge and gnarlies is kind of, uh, you know, meaningful on some level.

[00:36:59] Dan: That's great, Jon, our, the time has flown and it's time, time for us to feed you. Farewell. I'm afraid it's, but it's juicy stuff. Thank you. But I, this it is, I, I think you started out, I, I thought it was interesting when you, when you were defining autonomy or autonomous teams you, you said that these are teams on a, on a journey, on a, on the way to as, as a continuous, even your definition of the goal is a process, if it is a sort of journey, if you like.

[00:37:27] But, uh, what could our listener do to make a start on this? What's a practical way to, it's a sophisticated thing, but how could they get, get, if they want to think, Hmm, this is good. Let me do something today or tomorrow. What, where's a good place?

[00:37:43] Jon: Yeah. Uh, okay. So I'll, I'll, I'll speak to the listener as probably somebody in a management position, uh, originally and say the first thing you can do that's really is requires very little learning, although it requires practice, is to answer questions with questions. When somebody comes asking for a decision, some advice or whatever is to put it back to them. What do you think any ideas, what options have you tried is to try and, and see yourself as supporting someone's growth. It's not to say that, uh, advice is never required. Of course it is, but I would say that is a really simple thing to do.

[00:38:23] The other one is embracing some processes. The most simple you can do is to stop running and instead facilitate team meetings with a simple framework where everybody gets to put an item on the agenda and then as the facilitator, you help each person have their item fulfilled by the end of the meeting. It's hugely engaging 'cause people who've been silent for ages can suddenly speak. It makes it very relevant. It means that this meeting is about the stuff that we all want to talk about rather than the agenda of one person. And you are nurturing the team's ability to think for itself. So as a leader, I would say that's, that's the main thing.

[00:39:06] And then for anybody, leader otherwise doesn't matter, is to gradually learn to take more responsibility. Typic, mainly for our own emotions, for knowing that, you know, whatever's, you know, essentially you can't, you can't hurt me. That's something I tend to do to myself in, in the confines of my own mind as I react to whatever stimulus there is in the world. And I find that to be incredibly valuable for somebody's growth internally, but also their effectiveness in the workplace. The ability to navigate your own cognitive and socio-emotional landscape just makes such a difference to, you know, the joy I derive from my work and its effectiveness.

[00:39:44] I would, I would say I've got a free online course on my website. It's, it's self-serve, it's audio only so you can listen to it, uh, on the move. And there's loads of very specific tools and techniques as well as broader theories to play with.

[00:39:58] Dan: Excellent. Thank you. That will be in the show notes. Thank you. Jon, thank you so much for being on the show today.

[00:40:02] Pia: Thanks Jon, really great conversation.

[00:40:06] Jon: Thanks for having me both.

[00:40:07] Dan: You know, what Jon's doing here I think is really needed. I've seen so many leaders over time, particularly as they, you know, maybe move into that second stage of the pipeline or they've, they've been a leader for five or 10 years and they discover that they shouldn't be telling, being director, they shouldn't be telling people what to do, they should delegate, let go, build autonomy. Um, and, and what I've seen in many cases that they abandon. All of that direction and accountability and go to this sort of laissez fair style and end up building consensus. And, and it can be frustrating for everyone around them.

[00:40:43] And I think in a, if they're the sort of poles, what Jon's doing is trying to help people to hold that, that sort of, it's not a, it's not a compromise, but hold the sort of best of both of those. And it's an and hold the best, best point, which is inherently challenging and messy and, um, sort of never done. So, yeah, I think you can, it's, it's really needed. It's really needed. But it leads you into a realm of complexity of course, that, um, that, that some team leaders, I guess aren't, aren't ready to take on.

[00:41:14] Pia: We're not great on the and, um, and we tend to choose a sort of simpler solution, which is either or. So my reflection of the conversation, Jon, is that, you know, it takes a brave leader to choose this path. It's, it's that, you know, that the opportunities and the outcomes are huge, but, um, you've gotta put your ego aside to not get in the way of success and to build that opportunity for your organization.

[00:41:41] I mean, he talked about with choice comes responsibility. With that being liberating, you know, well, that's a great, but we grow up, so we're gonna get lessons out of this. We're gonna get, see ourselves in a different way. And that to me requires a, a insight, awareness, and strength actually to really go down that path. 

[00:42:02] Dan: Def I think, for all concerns. You remember James Prior on the show was talking about, um, Keegan's adult development, phase of adult development and you know, as you get to that sort of, as you become more, a bit more advanced, and you're able to take on these multiple perspectives.

[00:42:19] That's great, but actually have people signed up for that when they go into work? Has everyone actually signed up for that transformation for themselves as well as the leader? And it does require everyone to move, move along there. And obviously it's a positive thing, being able to be a bit more sophisticated about taking on multiple perspectives and so on. But, um, yeah, it's, it, it means that you are into the hard work, not just of how to run a team and manage things, but actually to change all the humans in that team, um, in a, in a positive way. So, yeah.

[00:42:52] Pia: And I'm not quite sure if it could work in a large corporate or a, you know, a global multinational. Because the pressure that is now being, you know, within the system to deliver means that you are being squeezed to deliver, which, which isn't the optimal, isn't the optimal conditions to set that up. I mean, again, you've gotta be pretty, pretty brave to buck that, buck that trend.

[00:43:19] Dan: Yes. I mean, I, I, I think that when it comes down to it, I, you know, we talk about in our Squadify work, the, you know, do you have autonomy to, to perform your role? And that's in a way what Jon was saying about you are the CEO of your role. It's actually building a quite heavy, quite good sound accountability there, um, to say that is your domain. So I think that might be the way through for people to really take higher, hierarchy out, but super respect the roles to say, right. What, what is your job?

[00:43:50] Let's say your in charge of his example I think was a really good one. I've seen this before. You are in charge of strategy that doesn't make you better or more senior to the person over here who's in charge of social media or whatever. But that is your job and you better make sure strategy's done, because everyone's expecting it just the same as they're expecting leads to come through social media or whatever it is. So I think it that that accountability is such a strong part of this as, as Jon said, and I thought your question at the front about what is, what it is and what it isn't revealed so much and it, and, and it includes this accountability.

[00:44:23] Pia: And I think the final piece was it's a process, not an outcome. So there's obviously a lot of learning to be gained in that. You've gotta be willing to be flexible, make changes, and actually have a, a lot of communication in the process. Because if you shut down that communication, I think you're gonna, I think that lack of clarity would potentially unhinging the whole process.

[00:44:44] Dan: Clearly it's a continuous process, as you say, and relies actually on psychological safety. So again, um, you know, Jon said that if you don't have that basic ability to communicate and say things about how things are going for each of you, this probably will fall down. So once again, psychological safety, the foundation of success.

[00:45:06] But that is it for this episode. You can find show notes on squadify.net under Resources that would include that link to Jon's resources. If you've enjoyed the show, please share the love and recommend it to your friends. If you'd like to contribute to the show, just email us at wenotmepod@gmail.com. We Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman of Origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.

[00:45:29] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.