Kevin: welcome to svelte radio hello everyone welcome to another episode of svelte radio
Kevin: long time no see
Kevin: Brittany Anthony hello
Brittney: hello
Brittney: last episode
Kevin: like last year
Kevin: I think
Brittney: you did a couple
Brittney: right like
Kevin: a couple conferences
Brittney: but the three of us I think
Brittney: it's been
Kevin: almost a year probably
Kevin: we've got the gang back together now
Brittney: yeah finally things
Kevin: have
Kevin: happened in Svelte World in our world
Brittney: I
Kevin: don't think anything's really
Antony: happened
Antony: I think it just paused
Antony: with us
Antony: yeah probably
Antony: we're the people
Kevin: just bringing everything
Kevin: forward in the Svelte world right
Kevin: without
Antony: us
Brittney: driven
Antony: by radio
Kevin: but we were at a conference
Kevin: we met at
Antony: a conference
Antony: again that was fun
Kevin: it was called Svelte Summit
Kevin: for those that are in to know
Kevin: that's the place
Brittney: to be
Brittney: and Spain was amazing incredible
Brittney: it
Antony: was
Antony: very grungy
Kevin: venue
Kevin: it was it was a great
Antony: it was rustic it was great vinnie i
Kevin: really like it was rustic i
Brittney: thought it
Brittney: was really pretty
Antony: i kind of wanted it as a house
Kevin: very pretty just just got just scared me a bit
Kevin: when the when their ceiling was leaking
Antony: just barely
Kevin: missed the audio and video gear
Antony: yeah
Kevin: it was fine and the toilet paper ran out and yeah there
Brittney: were like issues with the staff and
Brittney: management but we made it and we got through yeah it was great and it was good it was
Kevin: i i would say
Kevin: it was more fun than stockholm in a sense like stockholm was fun because it was the first time
Kevin: we got to meet everyone kind of
Brittney: that's true for
Kevin: me at least but then then this this time was just
Kevin: like meeting everyone again which was a lot of fun so but
Antony: it was very difficult like stockholm we had
Antony: this reserved place that was just took us all in and then we just chatted afterwards whereas
Antony: we ran around the whole of Spain
Antony: it felt like the whole of Spain afterwards
Brittney: I did run around the whole of Spain
Brittney: afterwards
Brittney: you really did
Brittney: we were
Antony: just trying to find one bar that would get us in
Antony: and basically try and sneak some people in
Antony: and then sort of filter people in
Antony: bit by bit so they didn't know it was a massive crowd
Antony: because they didn't want a massive crowd
Antony: so just get four people in
Antony: and then get them ordering drinks
Antony: and then oh there's four more people here
Antony: have some drinks
Antony: and then eventually 40 something people turn up
Antony: maybe six they're coming around and then they're like oh we have we have been played we have been
Kevin: played surely they they like it when people show up to their venue so they
Brittney: can sell their
Kevin: products
Kevin: right
Brittney: not american tourists when they're
Kevin: going through like a
Brittney: i see protest
Kevin: a rebel tourism
Kevin: people
Brittney: yeah yeah we
Kevin: are very rowdy i guess you're not american
Brittney: i just i said that sorry like there
Brittney: were quite a
Brittney: well I guess there
Brittney: were a lot of
Brittney: Americans that were
Brittney: there yeah yeah
Brittney: it's
Antony: nice not having
Antony: people talk about
Antony: British tourists for
Antony: once to be honest
Brittney: oh no we
Antony: are
Antony: definitely the worst
Antony: but it's nice that
Antony: it wasn't the
Antony: default that's quite
Antony: good
Brittney: I don't know
Brittney: every time
Kevin: I go to
Kevin: Hungary to visit
Kevin: friends I always hear
Kevin: about people
Kevin: complaining about
Kevin: British stag doos
Antony: yeah yeah
Kevin: yeah
Kevin: my
Antony: stag do was
Antony: Hungary I didn't
Antony: know if my stag do
Antony: was indeed in
Antony: really and it
Antony: It was in Hungary because,
Brittney: yeah,
Antony: because what's stag do?
Brittney: Yeah.
Brittney: It's like a bachelor party.
Antony: When you get married, it's like a bachelor party.
Brittney: It's like a stag party.
Brittney: Okay.
Brittney: Yeah.
Antony: It is a stag party.
Antony: It's not like a stag party.
Antony: It really is.
Antony: I just think stag
Brittney: do sounded very.
Antony: Oh, I see you.
Antony: I didn' know what you
Brittney: were talking about.
Antony: Do you know
Brittney: what do
Antony: is?
Brittney: No.
Brittney: I know.
Brittney: I've just heard the stag
Antony: do.
Antony: Maybe that's a Britishism.
Antony: So a do is party.
Antony: So, like, are we going to your birthday do?
Antony: It means going to your birthday party.
Antony: It
Brittney: does not sound like a party.
Brittney: I don't know why.
Antony: You know, it's a to-do.
Antony: I don't know.
Antony: I have no idea why it's called a do, but it's called a do.
Antony: We always call them do's.
Brittney: It sounds like a doo-doo.
Antony: Are you going to what's the space as do?
Brittney: Yeah.
Kevin: But, yeah, it was great.
Kevin: It was great.
Kevin: Spell Summit.
Kevin: I am looking forward to next year.
Antony: Spell do.
Antony: We've got a Spell do.
Kevin: Do we have a
Brittney: place yet?
Kevin: No, I'm still waiting for the tax registration stuff.
Kevin: It's a bit on me, to be fair.
Kevin: I've not really had the mental capacity to do stuff lately.
Brittney: I was going to say, you're not busy at all.
Kevin: No.
Kevin: Can I recommend Hungary?
Kevin: I mean, I would love that.
Kevin: It is.
Kevin: It
Brittney: is nice.
Brittney: I've never been to Hungary.
Antony: The draw of Hungary is it has a lot of spas and baths and, you know,
Antony: places you can go and have, like, sit in a big heated pool and stuff.
Antony: It's great fun.
Kevin: Yeah, it is very nice.
Kevin: Are
Brittney: they clothed?
Antony: Yes.
Antony: Not all of them.
Kevin: Not all of them.
Brittney: That might be awkward.
Brittney: I
Kevin: saw an advertisement for something called a Sparty.
Kevin: That's a party at a spa.
Kevin: Spoo.
Brittney: Spoo.
Brittney: Spadu.
Kevin: Spadu.
Brittney: Spadu.
Brittney: This is
Kevin: going to go all
Brittney: episodes.
Brittney: Yeah.
Brittney: Welcome back, guys.
Brittney: You're welcome.
Brittney: Yeah.
Kevin: We're just catching up.
Kevin: We haven't really chatted a
Brittney: lot, the
Kevin: three of us.
Kevin: So it's fun.
Kevin: I'm hoping the audience also enjoys it a bit.
Brittney: But let's
Kevin: maybe talk a bit about the Svelte Radio plans going forward.
Kevin: I would want this to happen once a week
Kevin: if we can do it
Kevin: maybe not
Kevin: maybe we will, maybe we won't
Kevin: but hopefully more frequent
Kevin: than the last year or so
Antony: this is the first
Antony: you have just told us of this by the way
Kevin: yes
Brittney: we are finding out
Brittney: I
Kevin: mean to be fair
Kevin: I did ask you like what time
Kevin: every week would kind of work
Kevin: you dropped it
Brittney: in
Kevin: there
Kevin: he's real
Brittney: too yeah and then we missed like two weeks of that because life is chaos so
Kevin: yeah yeah i i for those that don't know i i i have a newborn he's he's just over five weeks now
Kevin: wow and it's it's it's a lot of it's a lot of uh work mostly mentally for me i mean it's it's
Kevin: worse physically for my girlfriend probably because she has to do all the feeding and the stuff um
Kevin: Yeah.
Kevin: So basically, I guess, she's taking care of the baby, I'm taking care of her.
Brittney: Yeah, that makes sense.
Brittney: That is the role.
Kevin: Right.
Kevin: For now, at least.
Kevin: Yeah.
Kevin: So, yeah, I've been, I haven't, honestly, I haven't touched any code for like a month.
Kevin: Because I've just been so tired.
Kevin: As you shouldn't,
Brittney: right?
Brittney: Like, you take paternity leave.
Brittney: Right.
Kevin: Yeah, yeah, that is true.
Kevin: But, you know, I kind of like coding, you
Brittney: know.
Brittney: We all like coding, but there's
Antony: priorities.
Antony: The thing is, I mean, five weeks is a really hard bit.
Antony: Like the first couple of months are just ridiculous.
Antony: I'm glad I don't have to go through that.
Antony: You know, I
Kevin: think another thing is it's our first, right?
Kevin: So I assume as you have more of them, you're kind of just like,
Brittney: eh,
Kevin: it'll work out.
Brittney: I mean, you know what's going to happen.
Brittney: That doesn't make it better the second time.
Kevin: well in terms of like you maybe you don't worry about everything all the time like
Kevin: for me
Brittney: it was a struggle
Kevin: okay all right
Brittney: i mean you do you
Antony: do but you prioritize your worrying
Antony: you prioritize your worrying that's what happens you you worry about a smaller breadth of things
Antony: but you worry in more depth about this
Brittney: anthony do you want to explain for the audience why you have
Brittney: tape on your head?
Antony: Well, no one can see the tape on my head, but
Antony: I had a piece of hair
Brittney: sticking out. We definitely
Brittney: can.
Antony: Well, we can,
Antony: but the audience won't,
Kevin: because we're not recording
Kevin: the video.
Brittney: Oh!
Brittney: I thought we were recording video, so...
Antony: No, no.
Antony: I just
Brittney: let the cat out of the bag.
Antony: There was a piece of
Antony: hair sticking out, and it's gone in.
Antony: I see it worked. See?
Brittney: Editor can cut that out, I guess.
Brittney: It did work. I've been taking
Kevin: a screenshot.
Antony: It did work.
Antony: table screen shut it's gone
Kevin: it's finished
Antony: the hair is back to well it's about to normal
Brittney: yes i
Brittney: changed
Antony: i changed hairdresser as
Kevin: well ah that's the reason for the
Kevin: the hair sticking out though
Brittney: you have a regular hairdresser
Brittney: i used to i
Kevin: used to
Kevin: i actually do as well but anyway should we talk about something oh that's hurting
Kevin: So for those that can't see, Brittany just got a piercing in the ear, I think.
Kevin: Yeah, I got two ear piercings
Brittney: yesterday to match my 12-year-old daughter so we could clean them and hers will not get infected this time.
Brittney: I also have the same piercings on the other side, so it's called a conch and a helix piercing.
Kevin: And then I had headphones on them and it
Brittney: hurt.
Kevin: Yeah, so now you're just wearing one headphone.
Kevin: Well, half of a headphone.
Kevin: Half of a headphone.
Kevin: Pair of headphones?
Antony: Oh, it's not a pair.
Kevin: Right?
Kevin: How
Antony: did you miss the two
Brittney: agents?
Kevin: So in terms of Svelte, what have you guys been up to?
Kevin: Are you working with Svelte?
Kevin: Are you excited?
Kevin: I don't know.
Kevin: I am.
Brittney: I've actually been getting to use Svelte 5 for the first time.
Brittney: Well, not for the first time, but regularly for the first time.
Brittney: And it's been great.
Brittney: brand new
Antony: code base.
Antony: Sounds
Kevin: like fun.
Brittney: It's golden.
Antony: It's interesting that, yeah, you're just using
Antony: Spark 5 and in reality, I guess
Antony: I too am just using Spark 5 now
Antony: because, you know, in the
Antony: real world, you can't move as fast as the core team
Antony: can or the people with hobby projects
Antony: or side projects or whatever else
Antony: they've got. So you end up
Antony: just on a
Kevin: bit of an old lot.
Kevin: I know.
Kevin: Aren't you the CTO of your company?
Antony: Yeah.
Antony: to make money.
Antony: Priority.
Antony: Yeah, I
Brittney: was going to say,
Brittney: you have users
Brittney: and you have to
Kevin: keep things
Brittney: flowing and working.
Brittney: And
Kevin: what better way
Kevin: of using a fast,
Kevin: modern framework
Kevin: that can make
Kevin: the user experience better?
Antony: You know,
Antony: we still have production apps,
Antony: so half of our biggest app
Antony: at Live is still using SAPA.
Brittney: Oh, that's hilarious.
Antony: And it's still fast.
Antony: It's still fast.
Antony: It works, you know.
Antony: But the thing is,
Antony: yeah, we also just started
Antony: using SAP5
Antony: because we hired Puru, which you
Brittney: may have to know.
Brittney: Oh, goodness.
Antony: And so I get him to do Svelte now rather than me, actually.
Antony: But the thing is, one of his main tasks, really, for us
Antony: is to move all the stuff from Saffron to SvelteKit,
Antony: and then it was subgrade from SvelteKit and Svelte4
Antony: to the latest SvelteKit and Svelte5.
Antony: And it wasn't the world's smoothest journey, I'll be honest,
Antony: but we're now on Svelte5, we're in the latest SvelteKit,
Antony: but we still have a bunch of stuff in Sapa, which we are migrating across.
Antony: But it's exciting, yeah, because I mean, I have to admit,
Antony: I was a person who I didn't particularly like the look of runes.
Antony: I remember the first meeting where we started talking about
Antony: what Svelte 5 would be, and I was pretty against the whole idea.
Antony: And I certainly made everyone aware on the call that I wasn't against it.
Antony: And there was this kind of movement, sort of, yeah,
Antony: it doesn't make sense to change everything
Antony: and then a little bit swayed back the other way
Antony: and Rich is like what if this happened, what if this happened
Antony: and him and Dom are kind of discussing
Antony: what this could look like
Antony: and it starts to look a little bit more
Antony: a little bit less felty let's say
Antony: a little bit more like a set of
Antony: imports and
Antony: a set of
Antony: functions
Antony: that you call to make state rather than having
Antony: state kind of implicit in the language
Antony: and I didn't like that so I wasn't excited
Antony: about moving to it. But now I've started using it and I can see and you have to really use it
Antony: to see the value in what's been done. It's like,
Brittney: yeah,
Antony: actually, this is this is actually
Antony: it's objectively better, but I can see how it's more intimidating for a newcomer still.
Antony: So my original fear wasn't unfounded, but certainly
Brittney: I
Antony: can now see advantages.
Brittney: I agree 100%. I think you have to use it to see the benefits of it. But now that I'm using it too,
Brittney: It's like you can see just how much easier some things are and
Brittney: how much better things work.
Brittney: So, yeah, I
Brittney: agree with that.
Brittney: And I
Kevin: was very against
Brittney: it.
Brittney: Yeah, same.
Kevin: I've been working with it for probably like six or seven months now.
Antony: Oh, wow.
Antony: Okay.
Kevin: At like the place I was at before.
Kevin: And I like it.
Kevin: There are just like some stuff that is a bit foot gunny.
Kevin: Like if you're comparing objects in arrays,
Kevin: since it's like a proxy object
Kevin: and then you're comparing it with something else,
Kevin: you have to kind of, what do you call it?
Kevin: Work around that a bit.
Kevin: Because before you could just like compare the objects
Kevin: because they have the same reference,
Kevin: but now they're different references.
Kevin: So it's not really the same object you're comparing
Kevin: if you're like doing a duplication of something.
Kevin: Yeah.
Kevin: And you want to compare maybe like a, what would you call it?
Kevin: Like the default object.
Kevin: And then if you make a change,
Kevin: and then you want to see which objects in an array has changed,
Kevin: something like that.
Kevin: So that's a bit irritating.
Antony: But it's just the nature
Kevin: of proxies.
Antony: Yeah, well, I think one of the things about, you know,
Antony: it's like Java kind of nailed it a long time ago,
Antony: And it's a shame that JavaScript and ES6 didn't follow that pattern if they could.
Antony: But the whole two-string function and the overriding of that function
Antony: to build your own equality model is great.
Antony: And I love that in Java.
Antony: I think it's really good.
Antony: It would be amazing if there was something similar in JavaScript.
Kevin: I'm not familiar with that.
Kevin: What is that?
Antony: Well, if you compare two objects in Java, what it does is it uses...
Antony: It might not be two-string.
Antony: I might have got mixed up here because I learned about it when I was using Groovy,
Antony: but essentially it has a method.
Antony: If you type equals, equals, equals, or the equivalent equals, equals,
Antony: or dot equals on it, what it will do is it first of all calls that method,
Antony: which then generates any makeup of that object that you want for comparison.
Antony: So if it's an object full of all sorts of crazy stuff,
Antony: but actually you want to say something's different if it contains one property,
Antony: which is a number that's different or a Boolean true or false,
Brittney: You
Antony: can make your equals or two string or whatever method it's called.
Antony: Just compare, just return those two.
Speaker 5: So
Antony: that one property.
Antony: And so you can say they're not equal or they are equal
Antony: based on purely what that method returns.
Antony: So you're really comparing the app by that method.
Brittney: And I think
Antony: that'll be, it was great in Groovy.
Antony: It was great in Java.
Antony: I think it would be great in JavaScript or ES6.
Antony: It would fit nicely.
Antony: ESM.
Antony: What are we even calling it nowadays?
Antony: What's it called?
Kevin: ECMAScript.
Antony: Yeah, ECMAScript.
Kevin: I don't know.
Antony: Who knows?
Kevin: You know, JavaScript is owned by Oracle, right?
Brittney: Yeah, yeah.
Brittney: That's
Brittney: true.
Brittney: Right.
Kevin: So you have to be careful here.
Kevin: Might be
Brittney: good soon.
Brittney: Yeah, you became the richest man in the world, like, last week, right?
Kevin: Yeah, right.
Kevin: With the idea.
Antony: They also own Java.
Kevin: Right.
Antony: They own the JVM and made it proprietary.
Antony: But luckily, people forked it and made an open JDK before that.
Antony: Oracle are slightly famous for doing this.
Kevin: They're also slightly famous for being a bit anti...
Kevin: I don't know what you would even call it,
Kevin: but they don't have the best reputation, probably.
Antony: No.
Antony: Anti-not-suing people for no obvious reason.
Kevin: Yeah, yeah.
Kevin: Do you guys want to talk about what's new and Svelte?
Kevin: All
Brittney: this remote function stuff?
Brittney: To be fair, I don't really know what's new and Svelte.
Kevin: Right.
Brittney: And
Kevin: isn't there a
Brittney: show
Brittney: called What's New in Svelte
Brittney: that we do every week?
Antony: There is actually, yes.
Kevin: You can watch that on YouTube.
Kevin: Yeah.
Kevin: No, but there's remote functions
Kevin: and they just came to SvelteKit as well,
Kevin: I think, with SSR support.
Kevin: So now we can actually ditch the load function.
Kevin: Oh, okay.
Kevin: You can tell me about those
Brittney: because I don't know about this.
Kevin: Yeah.
Kevin: Yeah. Oh, you haven't seen the remote function stuff?
Brittney: No.
Antony: I haven't used them. I'm obviously aware of them, but I haven't used them.
Antony: Yeah,
Kevin: I haven't had that much time to use them yet either,
Kevin: but I just watched the video that Simon did.
Kevin: I don't know if you've seen it.
Brittney: Oh, I heard about that.
Kevin: He goes through some examples and shows you what you can do.
Kevin: And it looks really nice.
Brittney: It looks really,
Kevin: really nice.
Kevin: Especially if you're working in a situation where you're like in your load function where you're pulling in multiple things.
Kevin: And then you might just want to refresh one of them instead of like running the whole load function.
Kevin: You would just like fetch the specific data.
Kevin: If that makes sense.
Kevin: It's a lot more granular.
Kevin: And it's also like more tied to your component rather than your page.
Kevin: So you can kind of reuse logic on different pages by just reusing the component instead of the load function.
Kevin: Yeah,
Brittney: I
Brittney: would
Kevin: highly recommend watching the video.
Kevin: It's live on our YouTube channel.
Kevin: It's about society.
Kevin: If you haven't seen it, been to the channel, you should go there and check it out.
Kevin: Especially the video.
Kevin: It's very good.
Kevin: But yeah, that's about the amount of knowledge I have about remote functions at the time.
Brittney: I know there are different
Kevin: ones.
Kevin: It's like the query one where you fetch data.
Kevin: There's a command one where you tell the server to do something.
Kevin: And then there's the form one as well, I think.
Kevin: And also a pre-render one, if I remember correctly.
Kevin: So you can fetch data and just pre-render it at build.
Kevin: Or fetch the data at build.
Kevin: push it into time. That sounds really
Brittney: interesting. That's actually what I was going to say earlier
Brittney: is that we have a fairly new code base that we started this year. And we started,
Brittney: I feel like back in April, and we had I had to upgrade to get access to attachments,
Brittney: I wanted to use attachments. And then I'm like, Oh, we are
Brittney: not on
Brittney: the version that I can use that.
Brittney: So it moves so fast. Like, I can't keep up, I actually have to take a break soon just to
Brittney: do upgrades we did a v upgrade last week and
Antony: oh yeah i
Brittney: don't think that broke anything but we'll
Brittney: see
Antony: yeah i i definitely upgraded us to v test from whatever else we're using in one of the monor
Antony: repos that definitely broke things that was a mistake i
Brittney: am i actually started doing all of my
Brittney: testing in storybook i know hepe has
Brittney: done videos and
Brittney: like worked with uh um what's new and spell i
Brittney: think he did one of those too but storybook has come a long way and
Brittney: the testing in it uses
Brittney: v test
Brittney: under the hood so i
Brittney: just write the
Brittney: story and everything just right together and then you also
Brittney: have that visual piece so you can see your test run what step it's
Brittney: on everything's
Brittney: just right there
Brittney: in your story it's really cool nice yeah
Kevin: yeah storybook is like i think we talked about this
Kevin: at Sotsummit, but like
Brittney: I remember
Kevin: when Storybook
Kevin: just came out, and it's just
Kevin: like, honestly, and
Kevin: I...
Brittney: They know this.
Brittney: I think they know this,
Kevin: but
Kevin: the developer experience, complete trash,
Kevin: right?
Brittney: Especially for Spel.
Brittney: You would just run into issues
Kevin: everywhere.
Kevin: Yeah, exactly. But even for
Kevin: like React in the beginning,
Kevin: it was not
Antony: that... It was very heavy.
Antony: It was very heavy as well. And I think
Antony: that, you know,
Antony: It was at the point where Rick, So, and Co, I think, started writing their own Svensha.
Brittney: Yeah, there were, like, lots of different ones for a while.
Brittney: Like, Scott Dominski had one, and there was
Brittney: a VEAT-based one.
Brittney: Yeah,
Kevin: a VEAT book
Brittney: or something.
Brittney: And there were a few.
Kevin: Yeah, but now it's, like, it's all forgiven, because now it's great.
Brittney: Yeah, now it's great.
Kevin: No, but seriously, they've made really good progress.
Kevin: And it is really nice to use.
Brittney: You
Kevin: just have to make sure that your team actually keeps using it.
Kevin: So it
Brittney: doesn't get
Kevin: out of sync.
Kevin: It's just me and one other
Brittney: developer.
Brittney: And I do all the design system stuff.
Brittney: So Storybook and all that stuff is done by me.
Brittney: So I'm the only one.
Brittney: Just make sure
Brittney: I keep my documentation updated.
Brittney: So in case they lay me
Brittney: off like every
Brittney: other company I've worked for.
Brittney: sad but true
Brittney: yeah well no
Kevin: granger didn't lay me off
Brittney: but
Brittney: yeah it is it feels like it's just crazy right now the
Brittney: work place environment with
Kevin: ai like
Brittney: taking everything over and
Kevin: it's just i i read i read
Kevin: about on hacker news there there was a thread about there was a study about how like how much
Kevin: so they defined this as work slop it was work generated by ai that looks
Brittney: like
Kevin: it is good work
Kevin: but is actually bad
Brittney: and it takes apparently
Kevin: it takes up so much time from from other people having
Kevin: to like go through all this like for example like if one person generates work slop then some other
Kevin: receiving person would have to like check that work and make sure that it's good and
apparently
Brittney: that takes
Kevin: a lot of time.
Antony: It takes more time
Antony: than you want to write it
Antony: the first time yourself.
Antony: Exactly.
Antony: Yeah.
Kevin: Especially with the back and forth,
Kevin: right?
Kevin: If you have the AI
Kevin: write some stuff
Kevin: and then someone has to review it,
Kevin: maybe they're reviewing it with AI.
Kevin: Yeah.
Kevin: Think about like Copilot
Brittney: suggested first thing
Brittney: on GitHub now.
Kevin: Like every time
Antony: you put a PR in.
Antony: Yeah.
Antony: This is exactly how you end up
Antony: with no product.
Antony: Yeah.
Antony: But it's
Kevin: like, it's very good.
Kevin: Like I've been working on the, on the News Felt Society website.
Kevin: It's probably going live soon.
Kevin: I'm not going to promise anything
Brittney: like it at Svelte Summit.
Kevin: So, but Kareem just finished fixing a bug.
Kevin: So now, now it's like, we're actually ready to start importing stuff.
Kevin: So it should
Brittney: happen.
Kevin: And I'm actually also hiring someone to, to moderate.
Kevin: So if someone listening to this is interested, the pay won't be that good.
Kevin: you'll you'll have like a lot
Brittney: of fun you get the the pay of the community loving you and thank you
Brittney: exactly yes
Kevin: yes we pay you in what's it called when when people want to pay designers in
Kevin: like eyeballs or something like
Brittney: oh in views yeah yeah
Kevin: yeah no but there will be there there'll be
Kevin: like actual pay but it just won't be like a developer pay right because it's not a developer
Kevin: job it's it's mostly admin work yeah but yeah uh what was i saying oh right yeah with the ai stuff
Kevin: um so i used a lot of cloud code for for the new website and like it's it's very good at doing like
Kevin: the very, very boilerplate-y stuff that I don't want to do myself, that just repeats across
Kevin: multiple pages and stuff like that. I used it to generate a pretty nice admin graphical user
Kevin: interface, so I don't have to use Pocketbase or Firebase or something like that. And it works
Kevin: great um but i that's like hidden away from from the users right it's only like the admins and the
Kevin: editors and the moderators that would be using this gui so for that it's
Brittney: fine and
Kevin: it's fine if
Kevin: there are like a couple of bugs in there because who cares well yeah
Brittney: i've only tried a couple i've
Brittney: i tried chat gpt and it was absolutely awful at anything
Brittney: called related and claude
Brittney: is the first
Brittney: one that I found that will consistently write spelt code it occasionally will do like a dollar
Brittney: sign colon thing or something and I'll just tell it and it will fix it but
Brittney: what I found
Brittney: with Claude
Brittney: is that because it has that Claude.markdown file it can like you can put things in there about your
Brittney: work how you work whatever your system is that you use and it will read through that at the beginning
Brittney: of your conversation and it will remember essentially.
Brittney: And
Brittney: then I've started
Brittney: with like my JIRA tickets.
Brittney: I've made a folder and it makes its own context of markdown files for each ticket.
Brittney: So then
Brittney: I can be like, oh,
Brittney: if I need to pick back workup, I'm like, go refresh your context
Brittney: on this ticket and it will.
Brittney: And then that's helpful for it to just keep like where we're at.
Brittney: And then it can see your entire file system based on like what you give it access to.
Brittney: And
Brittney: because
of that, I think it does a better job than the other ones.
Kevin: Yeah, for sure.
Kevin: Also,
Brittney: I have, sorry, I have the Mac subscription.
Brittney: And I, so I think it's like $100 a month.
Brittney: But I think it's worth it for the time that it saved me.
Brittney: But then I did a workout schedule this week.
Brittney: And I added, it added calendar events to my event.
Brittney: Put on the event, the workout that I needed to do for every day.
Brittney: And like factored in the time, factored in like massage chair at the end.
Brittney: It was,
Kevin: it's been working
Brittney: really well.
Brittney: I like it a lot.
Kevin: Yeah.
Kevin: I remember when AI got big like a couple of years ago, I always wanted it to do stuff like that for me.
Kevin: Like figure my day out, like schedule things when I have time, et
Antony: cetera.
Kevin: But
Antony: yeah.
Antony: It's helpful, yeah.
Kevin: It's helpful.
Kevin: Sorry, I just wanted to mention, like, we were talking about, like, how different LLMs were good at writing Svelte.
Kevin: You mentioned ChatGPT being pretty bad.
Kevin: There's a project, an ongoing project internally.
Kevin: I'm not sure if it's public or not, so maybe I shouldn't talk about this.
Brittney: but there's like a
Kevin: Svelte MCP being worked on that like gives you,
Kevin: gives the LLM feedback on what it writes and just like makes it eventually write
Kevin: correct Svelte 5 code.
Kevin: So that's exciting.
Kevin: And then there's also Svelte Bench that Stanislav Kromov is made that just like
Kevin: tests a bunch of different LLMs and compares them to how Svelte 5 should be written, right?
Kevin: So you get like a percentage score of which LLM is writing the best one.
Kevin: And at the moment, it's Claude Opus 4 and Claude Sonnet 4 that are topping the charts,
Kevin: which kind of makes sense.
Antony: Yeah, not surprising, is it?
Kevin: But then surprising is like after that, there are like two open source Chinese models
Kevin: are up there.
Brittney: And then there's
Brittney: Grot 4 as
Kevin: well.
Brittney: And no thank you to that one as well.
Brittney: Yeah.
Brittney: At
Brittney: least the Chinese
Kevin: ones you can run
Kevin: yourself.
Kevin: You
Brittney: don't have to run it through the servers.
Brittney: I don't want to have my own server. I'm good.
Kevin: Yeah.
Kevin: Totally makes sense.
Brittney: But yeah, I
Kevin: just wanted to mention that.
Brittney: AI has been great.
Brittney: I'm lazy. I like
Antony: lazy things.
Antony: Yeah.
Antony: Well, the way we use AI is we have a thing called Tembo,
Antony: which is a startup that basically
Kevin: reads linear
Antony: tickets.
Antony: Tembo.io.
Brittney: Tembo
Antony: .io.
Antony: You can connect it to various different ticket systems and backlogs,
Antony: and you can go to GitHub or whatever else you use,
Antony: and then basically it can pick up tickets, do
Brittney: the work,
Antony: and then open PRs, which is,
Antony: that's kind of all the workflow I really want from it.
Antony: I'm not going to pretend it's great.
Antony: It's not always great.
Antony: It can do simple things.
Antony: You can automate simple tasks, which is handy.
Antony: It saves you dead getting, you know,
Antony: losing context of what they're working on
Antony: and doing some, like, little patch thing or whatever.
Antony: It sometimes goes crazy.
Antony: I think it uses Claude Under the Hood.
Antony: For some reason, it sometimes goes crazy.
Antony: Does all sorts of mad stuff,
Antony: like regressing dependencies to older versions.
Antony: But it's in a
Brittney: PR, so you can
Antony: review it and say,
Antony: what are you doing?
Antony: What's going on here?
Kevin: Installing is odd and is even.
Antony: Yeah, things like that.
Kevin: Like, seeing
Antony: the presence of libraries
Antony: this within the same monorepo and deciding it should create them all with like with like actual
Antony: code and and package
Kevin: you have to say that this is the wrong approach anthony yeah
Antony: yeah well exactly
Antony: i mean i must be right but yeah so it's it's um it's useful in a sort of confined space should we
Kevin: all right cool what do you guys think should we end it there it's like a first episode teaser for
Kevin: for everyone and then uh i was thinking i would uh invite simon for the next one
Brittney: he mentioned some
Kevin: that he would be interested in coming on and talking about remote functions so
Antony: we can like
Antony: explore
Kevin: that in detail maybe
Antony: we can all learn yeah oh
Kevin: of course we can't forget our two last
Kevin: sections right
Antony: oh yes don't forget our two what
Kevin: did we call them hot takes uh it
Antony: was oh yeah i
Antony: don't know about that one it was it was pics and the other one was um yeah hot takes no it wasn't
Antony: the hot takes it was
Kevin: controversial controversial opinions popular opinions yeah wow
Antony: it's been a
Kevin: Yeah, yeah. I almost wrote hot, unpopular opinions. That's not the one.
Antony: I was going to write hot potatoes.
Antony: Hot, hot potatoes.
Antony: That's another one.
Kevin: Unpopular opinions. Okay.
Kevin: Opinions. All right. I'll go first. You don't have to have one.
Kevin: I'm going to lean in on the work slop thing.
Kevin: AI
Brittney: is not the end
Kevin: -all-be-all of the world, I would say.
Kevin: Sean would probably disagree.
Brittney: He's not
Kevin: here to defend himself.
Kevin: I'm not going to say anything.
Kevin: Say what he would say.
Kevin: But yeah, it's good for some stuff.
Kevin: But I also think like the work slop thing,
Kevin: that is probably a very real thing.
Kevin: And it wastes probably a lot of time.
Kevin: So once we figured that out,
Kevin: maybe it's going to be better.
Kevin: But it all depends on the prompts, right?
Kevin: The people that are asking the AI to do stuff.
Brittney: you need
Kevin: to improve on that part as well
Kevin: so
Brittney: I agree
Kevin: and I
Brittney: don't know if
Brittney: that's a controversial
Brittney: opinion unless you're like
Brittney: the CEO of
Brittney: a company
Brittney: who's just trying to save money with
Brittney: workers but
Brittney: yeah
Brittney: I mean
Brittney: I don't know
Antony: I don't have
Brittney: a controversial opinion
Brittney: go ahead Anthony I know you always have
Brittney: I often
Antony: have
Antony: I didn't really think of one for this one
Brittney: but
Antony: I mean
Antony: Yeah, I think Kev's taken the best one there
Antony: because that is very pertinent right now.
Antony: Very much.
Brittney: That's where you go first.
Brittney: Yeah, it is.
Antony: Wheelhouse, yeah.
Antony: Controversial opinion.
Antony: Oh, I think, right, the controversial opinion I have
Antony: is related really to politics instead.
Brittney: Oh, no.
Brittney: I know.
Antony: Well, it's controversial in a good way, right?
Antony: The fact is that when you have two equally bad governments,
Antony: The only way that you can get the government that you want to win
Antony: or the party that you want to win is by basically finding common ground
Antony: and competing on that.
Antony: Because if you try to beat them by taking the issue that they're championing
Antony: and they're better at it than you are, you're going to lose to
Brittney: them
Antony: with their own arguments.
Antony: So therefore you have to find common ground and then use that common ground
Antony: to differentiate to brand your political party to win.
Antony: And it's very much taken from my pick, actually,
Antony: which I could go to my pick from this,
Brittney: actually.
Brittney: Go for it.
Antony: So my pick is a guy called, and it's really better if you're British,
Antony: but if you're in any way interested in economics or politics
Antony: or anything like that at all, trading, you name it,
Antony: there's a guy called Gary's Economics on YouTube.
Antony: And he is very, very smart.
Antony: So he was the youngest, one of the best traders in the world,
Antony: and also one of the youngest traders in the world,
Antony: working for all the big banks.
Antony: And now he advises banks, but he also does YouTube,
Antony: and basically talks about how actually everything in politics
Antony: is not based on anything about discrimination, race, whatever else.
Antony: It's all based on inequality,
Antony: and it's the inequality divide between the rich and the poor,
Antony: which drives all sorts of resentment inside a population,
Antony: and then drives them to vote and to think in a specific way.
Antony: It's all to do with actually inequality,
Antony: the poor getting poorer and the rich taking everything from the poor.
Antony: So it's worth a watch.
Antony: It's very interesting.
Antony: And he speaks about it in a way that is very much like down to earth.
Antony: It's not, you know, lots of complex terms.
Antony: He's laying it out for you as a layman or layperson would receive that information.
Brittney: Sounds
interesting.
Brittney: um i guess how
Kevin: how would i sorry
Brittney: one second you can go ahead how
Kevin: what what would i call
Kevin: your unpopular opinion anthony find
Antony: my own ground my unpopular opinion is that um
Antony: you can't you can't yeah you can't win a battle by by um fighting with
Antony: like fighting on the same terms, I guess.
Antony: I mean, it's something like that.
Antony: It's
Brittney: basically that you have to find something
Antony: common in order to differentiate.
Antony: Cool.
Kevin: Yeah.
Kevin: All right, Briden, sorry.
Brittney: Oh, no worries.
Brittney: I guess I might have a controversial opinion for somebody.
Brittney: Cats are better than dogs, in my opinion.
Brittney: I
Kevin: guess depending on who you
Brittney: are.
Brittney: That's wrong.
Kevin: That's wrong.
Kevin: 100% true
Kevin: I agree with you
Kevin: and
Brittney: then
Brittney: I guess my pick
Brittney: is going to be
Brittney: um
Brittney: if you like cats
Brittney: and you are like me
Brittney: and think cats
Brittney: are better than dogs
Brittney: find a place
Brittney: that has cats
Brittney: to work from
Brittney: if you can't have cats
Brittney: at
Kevin: home
Kevin: like a cat cafe
Kevin: or something
Brittney: it's
Brittney: yeah
Brittney: that's essentially
Brittney: where I've been working
Kevin: so I got a membership
Brittney: to
Brittney: aww
Brittney: little floof ball
Brittney: you are so cute
Kevin: hold him up again
Brittney: see I love cats
Brittney: this
Kevin: is
Kevin: this is
Kevin: her up again okay
Brittney: screenshot taken this is Bruce
Kevin: yeah that's cute that's a very cute oh I'm hearing
Kevin: a baby screaming
Brittney: yeah maybe
Brittney: I should
Kevin: oh I should I should bring the baby on so you can see him
Kevin: oh you should
Brittney: maybe next week
Kevin: maybe not when he's screaming but
Brittney: yeah all
Kevin: right uh picks so your picks
Kevin: your pick was go to a
Brittney: cat cafe or some other place yes yeah some place with a cat and
Brittney: Anthony
Brittney: scary economics
Kevin: i have i have uh a tv show slow horses oh very very good show first episode of
Kevin: the new season comes out today which is
Brittney: what's it on apple
Kevin: tv plus
Brittney: okay it's
Kevin: about like a i haven't
Brittney: seen that one i heard of yeah
Kevin: it's it's with gary oldman in the as like the lead
Brittney: actor
Kevin: and it's
Kevin: about he basically runs this janky old i don't know what you would call it like a
Brittney: spy in
Kevin: an
Brittney: offshoot
Kevin: of mi6 or something
Brittney: like that oh that sounds interesting and all like the rejects
Kevin: end
Kevin: up there and things happen it's just like fun
Antony: very funny
Brittney: awesome it's
Antony: where where you go and
Antony: they can't really fire you but they basically fire you
Brittney: oh nice i would enjoy that yeah i've been
Brittney: watching star trek
Kevin: star trek there's a new one or are you watching like an old well
Brittney: the one that was
Brittney: out a couple years ago i think it's uh i don't even remember what it was called but it's a
Brittney: the prequel to the original
Kevin: oh there's a prequel to to be honest i am not a star trek uh yeah so
Kevin: like
Brittney: i don't know like captain kirk is on a different ship and like
Antony: all the people
Brittney: kind of
Brittney: get introduced like as yeah so
Antony: an old irc friend recently met captain janeway
Antony: he's got some photos with her in some place in
Brittney: new york next gen right
Antony: which is the one with the ewoks where the ewoks from which star trek that's star wars isn't it
Antony: oh yeah same same thing same thing yeah no
Kevin: but this this is star trek anthony this is star trek
Antony: that's also very
Kevin: very
Antony: insulting to
Kevin: Star Wars fans like myself
Kevin: different
Antony: seasons
Kevin: Star Trek the same as Star Wars
Brittney: oh my god
Antony: Star Wars The Next Generation
Antony: and
Kevin: on that note
Kevin: that's it for this week
Brittney: that's it
Kevin: yeah thank you all for listening
Kevin: I hope you guys enjoyed
Kevin: this as much as I did
Kevin: it was a lot of fun talking to you guys again
Kevin: and I hope we
Kevin: will make this an actual
Kevin: recurring thing.
Kevin: And now Anthony is showing a
Kevin: mug that says, go
Speaker 5: away, I'm coding.
Speaker 5: Go away, I'm coding. That's a very
Speaker 5: old meme, by the way.
Speaker 5: That picture.
Brittney: Classic.
Speaker 5: Alright, goodbye everyone, and we will
Speaker 5: talk to you next week.
Brittney: Bye-bye.
Brittney: next week